Northern Ireland -The "Two Traditions" Destroying Their Own Children To Make a Point The Rest of the Planet Does Not Give Damn About?
kfuz...@hotmail.com
Children are the silent casualties of the troubles in Northern Ireland,
according to a report published today in Northern Ireland by the charity
Childline. The report found that one in five children in Northern Ireland
have been in, or near an explosion and up to 20% have lost relatives or
friends as a result of the troubles. Childline has announced it is to open a
new counselling centre in the North. This is in response to the findings of
the survey, based on calls to its helpline over a three year period.
Nationalist and Unionists - The Pair of You Should Be Ashamed of Yourselves.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Gavan Moran
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:14:34 -0600, kfuz...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Children are the silent casualties of the troubles in Northern Ireland,
[snip]
What do you expect from a sick, failed state like NI?
Gavan
--
email: gmo...@nyx.net <-preferred
or Gavan_...@ccm.ir.intel.com
DISCLAIMER: I work for Intel, but I don't speak for Intel
Bollox Inc.
<kfuz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nationalist and Unionists - The Pair of You Should Be Ashamed of Yourselves.
DITTO NAZIS and JEWS ? DITTO ARMENIANS AND TURKS?
Sorry thats complete shit.
Greig
Big Mac
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:55:07 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
wrote:
Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All
these traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care,
maaaan."
Bollox Inc.
Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
Still anti-social and still wrong, it is about time Southerners looked
after their own interests without using us as sandbags. It is THEIR
problem as well and talking shit is not a solution. Making me and my
community into official niggers as opposed to unofficial niggers is NOT
a solution.
We need people to be pragmatic.
Greig
Neil Alasdair McEwan
Big Mac (macdo...@ferengi.co.uk) wrote:
: Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All
: these traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care,
: maaaan."
As opposed to, "Our tradition is good, but our enemy's tradition is
bad and he must be destroyed"? Northern Ireland needs more "we don't
care", not less.
slainte
Neil
--
Big Mac
On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:46:58 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
wrote:
>Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
>> Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All these
>> traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care, maaaan."
>
>
>after their own interests without using us as sandbags. It is THEIR
>problem as well and talking shit is not a solution. Making me and my
>community into official niggers as opposed to unofficial niggers is NOT
>a solution.
>
>We need people to be pragmatic.
Here's some pragmatism. Are you so surprised that Irish nationalism
is unpopular down south? It may be associated with liberation to you,
but down there its associated with Albert Reynolds. Exactly how would
six extra counties benefit Unki, then? Put forward a convincing case
for that, and Sinn Fein's problems are solved. But they've never been
able to, instead jumping on the bandwagon of reactionary campaigns
against drugs etc.
Anti-imperialists have to go beyond nationalism.
Big Mac
On 5 Apr 1998 03:21:07 GMT, ap...@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair
McEwan) wrote:
>Big Mac (macdo...@ferengi.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All
>: these traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care,
>: maaaan."
>
>
> As opposed to, "Our tradition is good, but our enemy's tradition is
>bad and he must be destroyed"? Northern Ireland needs more "we don't
>care", not less.
Northern Ireland is going to get it. It's a strange but true fact
that the people with the most credibility in the "peace process" are
precisely the people with no support, such as the Women's Coalition
and Labour. The problem with democratic politics deciding the future
in NI, as everyone will tell you, is that "the people" are "sectarian
bigots" like Greig and Jerry. Far better that the say-so of those
kind of people is kept to a minimum.
"we don't care" = "new-style gerrymandering in Northern Ireland"
Bollox Inc.
Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:46:58 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
> wrote:
> >Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All these
> >> traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care, maaaan."
> >
> >
> >Still anti-social and still wrong, it is about time Southerners looked
> >after their own interests without using us as sandbags. It is THEIR
> >problem as well and talking shit is not a solution. Making me and my
> >community into official niggers as opposed to unofficial niggers is NOT
> >a solution.
> >
> >We need people to be pragmatic.
>
> Here's some pragmatism. Are you so surprised that Irish nationalism
> is unpopular down south? It may be associated with liberation to you,
> but down there its associated with Albert Reynolds. Exactly how would
> six extra counties benefit Unki, then? Put forward a convincing case
> for that, and Sinn Fein's problems are solved. But they've never been
> able to, instead jumping on the bandwagon of reactionary campaigns
> against drugs etc.
>
> Anti-imperialists have to go beyond nationalism.
The presumption is that it is our state as well. Also why does partition
have to be in 2 why not 32 or 16? Acceptance of partition invalidates
the Southern regime as soon as it validates the Northern one. It's so
messy, it is NOT legal or democratic and is without effective purpose.
You or me tomorrow if we had 500 people prepared to die or suffer
imprisonment might progress a MORE legitimate de facto government.
They're leaving themselves open to more rather than less shit. The
actual solution is to protect what they have and agitate for human
rights for Northern Taigs.
Greig
Bollox Inc.
Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
> Northern Ireland is going to get it. It's a strange but true fact
> that the people with the most credibility in the "peace process" are
> precisely the people with no support, such as the Women's Coalition
> and Labour. The problem with democratic politics deciding the future
> in NI, as everyone will tell you, is that "the people" are "sectarian
> bigots" like Greig and Jerry. Far better that the say-so of those
> kind of people is kept to a minimum.
>
> "we don't care" = "new-style gerrymandering in Northern Ireland"
Real world calling. Jerry has NO politics, I'm the orthodox liberal
democrat it only looks extreme against a reactionary anti-catholic
supremacist backdrop.
Greig
Big Mac
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:25:35 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
wrote:
>Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
Try telling that to the other parties that Sinn Fein are working out a
deal with. SF has made progress in the talks to the extent that it
has moderated its demands and ditched the old-school militant
republicanism for the soft-soap cultural "nationalism" of the likes of
McAleese. The so-called peace process is predicated on diluting and
not representing "sectarian" views, ie. those of Unionists and
republicans. That's why the Women's Coalition can boast that they
have set the agenda - because they represent about 3000 people, which
makes them "unbiased" and suitably "open-minded", while the
"sectarian" parties represent about 80% of the electorate, making them
"unwieldy" and "intransigent".
Consensus implies coercion. You better wise up. Both you and Jerry
are effectively being disenfranchised by Clinton, Blair and Ahern.
Big Mac
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:46:03 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
wrote:
>Consensus implies coercion. You better wise up. Both you and Jerry
>are effectively being disenfranchised by Clinton, Blair and Ahern.
Consider the Parades Commission in this light. A quango that has the
full support of Sinn Fein, I believe? And a quango that has
effectively banned the right to protest in Northern Ireland.
Sinn Fein/IRA - backing Britain.
Bollox Inc.
Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
What? it's an instrument to humiliate US, it is full of loyalists and it
PRESUMES a right that doesn't exist in law, "the right to march" it is
yet more supremacist legislation. Massive reform is needed and that
means the state has to STOP endorsing Protestant Supremacism. Taig
baiting is NOT legitimate.
Would the Christian Falange get to march through a Moslem area in
Lebanon? Is it right that Serb Supremacists march through a Bosnian
area? Well it's the same thing, it's intimidation and humiliation
against a victim community has has had 200 years of it. We have a right
to LIVE unmolested they have NO right to MARCH. That is the choice it is
between us being persecuted in an anti-catholic State and them
persecuting us.
They should keep it out of OUR faces and away from OUR homes. Taig
baiting is NOT culture it is supremacism.
Greig
Concerned Ulsterman
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:13:15 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
wrote:
>Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
Paranoia is an important element in nationalist culture. It was the
nationalists who demanded (why do nationalists never ask?) a parade
copmmission in the first place. The first decision of the commission
was to support Gerard Rice's demand for the Apprentice Boys' march to
be banned on the Ormeau Road. So what does Gerry do? Why he seeks a
judicial review against the commission, because its two Protestant
members are too protestant.
You couldn't please nationalists.
CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
Concerned Ulsterman
I wonder has Gerry Rice ever thought of becoming a resident of the
Ormeau Road? He currently lives in comfortable North Down. Perhaps he
is out of touch with the real residents, a majority of which would
support the loyal orders marching if carried out responsibility and
with respect for the real residents.
CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
Bollox Inc.
Concerned Ulsterman <may...@enterprise.net> wrote:
> Perhaps he
> is out of touch with the real residents, a majority of which would
> support the loyal orders marching if carried out responsibility and
> with respect for the real residents.
>
> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
Ormeau survey ``barely credible''
By Ned Kelly
Professor Bob Eccleshall, head of the Department of Politics at
Queen's University Belfast, has dismissed the research findings of
Queen's student Vincent McKenna who, under the guise of the
Ormeau Road `Charter for Change', claimed to have carried out a
survey which found that 80% of Catholics would be happy to allow
Orange marches down the Lower Ormeau Road.
The `survey' was seized on by Orangemen and Apprentice Boys as
justification for their failure to enter into dialogue with the Lower
Ormeau Concerned Community (LOCC).
Professor Eccleshall said that the ``methodology [used] is seriously
flawed and its findings are barely credible.'' He said a professional
study would have dealt with the complex issue of contentious parades
in a completely different way. One such study by Coopers & Lybrand
in 1996 found that 95% of residents wanted parades re-routed.
Eccleshall's letter, it is now thought, will put paid to those claims
made by McKenna and the Ballynafeigh Apprentice Boys that a deal
on marches through the Lower Ormeau is possible without talks
between the Apprentice Boys and representatives of the Lower Ormeau
community. A deal announced at a press conference last week claimed
that Charter for Change and the Apprentice Boys could meet a number
of conditions regarding the first Orange parade down the road on
Easter Monday.
In rubbishing the deal LOCC questioned why the Apprentice Boys
insist on taking this route and asked them to ``face up to their
responsibility, address the legitimate fears and grievances of our
community and enter into dialogue.''
Sinn Fein's South Belfast Councillor, Sean Hayes commenting after
the McKenna press conference at the Ballynafeigh Orange Hall said,
``This is a smokescreen created purely for their own interests and will
serve absolutely no-one. Vincent McKenna doesn't represent the views
and concerns of the community. The Orange Order is well aware of
this fact. It should stop engaging in stunts and meet Gerard Rice.''
Prof Eccleshall's criticisms of the report centred on the number of
researchers used and the timescale of the survey. Also he was
extremely alarmed at the number of residents from the Upper and
Lower Ormeau Road who didn't believe a survey had actually
occurred. Gerard Rice of the LOCC said, ``we have been unable to
find a single resident who actually filled in McKenna's survey.''
McKenna claims to have interviewed 400 Catholics and Protestants
out of the 9,200 registered voters in the area.
Despite Prof Eccleshall's plea, ``that nobody would be foolish enough
to use the survey to give pseudo-scientific respectability to opinions''
the Apprentice Boys entered into dialogue with the now discredited
McKenna.
Bollox Inc.
Concerned Ulsterman <may...@enterprise.net> wrote:
> So what does Gerry do? Why he seeks a
> judicial review against the commission, because its two Protestant
> members are too protestant.
>
> You couldn't please nationalists.
>
> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
Ex-member of the UDA and the other featured at a UVF death squad honour
guard isn't that right? We just want human rights.
Greig
Jér Guévara
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:10:54 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
wrote:
>On 5 Apr 1998 03:21:07 GMT, ap...@chebucto.ns.ca (Neil Alasdair
>McEwan) wrote:
>
>>Big Mac (macdo...@ferengi.co.uk) wrote:
>>
>>: Mind you Greig, Unki is only being the typical Irishman today. "All
>>: these traditions and ideologies are equally good/bad. We don't care,
>>: maaaan."
>>
>>
>> As opposed to, "Our tradition is good, but our enemy's tradition is
>>bad and he must be destroyed"? Northern Ireland needs more "we don't
>>care", not less.
>
>Northern Ireland is going to get it. It's a strange but true fact
>that the people with the most credibility in the "peace process" are
>precisely the people with no support, such as the Women's Coalition
>and Labour. The problem with democratic politics deciding the future
>in NI, as everyone will tell you, is that "the people" are "sectarian
>bigots" like Greig and Jerry. Far better that the say-so of those
>kind of people is kept to a minimum.
Well said. I agree 100% if you take my name out :)
***************************************************
Jerry
***************************************************
I think, I can't remember if, I think, I think, according to the Brits anyway.
I can't for the life of me remember, but I can't remember which.
I doubt if it, and maybe it was, I honestly can't remember.
Sorry the date escapes me, Obviously it would, I think it was after
***************************************************
Greg Carlin making a factual post 25/02/98
***************************************************
Jér Guévara
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:25:35 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
wrote:
>Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Northern Ireland is going to get it. It's a strange but true fact
>> that the people with the most credibility in the "peace process" are
>> precisely the people with no support, such as the Women's Coalition
>> and Labour. The problem with democratic politics deciding the future
>> in NI, as everyone will tell you, is that "the people" are "sectarian
>> bigots" like Greig and Jerry. Far better that the say-so of those
>> kind of people is kept to a minimum.
>>
>> "we don't care" = "new-style gerrymandering in Northern Ireland"
>
>
>Real world calling. Jerry has NO politics, I'm the orthodox liberal
>democrat it only looks extreme against a reactionary anti-catholic
>supremacist backdrop.
The orthodox liberal has spoken.... I am left in awe.. He knows me so
well. I'll discuss this with my anti-Catholic Catholic girlfriend and
her anti-Catholic Catholic friends at the weekend.
Big Mac
>On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:13:15 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.)
>wrote:
>
>>Big Mac <macdo...@ferengi.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:46:03 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
>>> wrote:
>>> >Consensus implies coercion. You better wise up. Both you and Jerry
>>> >are effectively being disenfranchised by Clinton, Blair and Ahern.
>>>
>>> Consider the Parades Commission in this light. A quango that has the
>>> full support of Sinn Fein, I believe? And a quango that has
>>> effectively banned the right to protest in Northern Ireland.
>>>
>>> Sinn Fein/IRA - backing Britain.
>>
>>
>>What? it's an instrument to humiliate US, it is full of loyalists and it
>>PRESUMES a right that doesn't exist in law, "the right to march"
If that's the case - why does it have the backing of Sinn Fein? And
why have Sinn Fein not condemned the new regulations that require
three weeks notice of marches, effectively making peaceful protest.
nine times out of ten, pointless?
It's things like that which convince people that Sinn Fein are Mo
Mowlam's strongest backers. Even the Orange Order have noted this
attack on democratic rights.
Big Mac
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:03:38 GMT, may...@enterprise.net (Concerned
Ulsterman) wrote:
>> It was the
>>nationalists who demanded (why do nationalists never ask?) a parade
>>copmmission in the first place. The first decision of the commission
>>was to support Gerard Rice's demand for the Apprentice Boys' march to
>>be banned on the Ormeau Road.
Right. So we have Sinn Fein appealing to the British authorities to
ban marches. Of course, the march is very offensive to Catholics.
But the answer to that used to be to abolish the state that leads to
such offenses, not ask it to regulate EVERYONE in the interests of a
quiet life.
Tomorrow it will be Bloody Sunday commemorations. And the day after
nobody will be allowed to march for any reason at all, and "peace"
shall have come to Northern Ireland.
Ha ha.
Big Mac
On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:00:22 GMT, J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols
(Jér Guévara) wrote:
>Well said. I agree 100% if you take my name out :)
Oh yes Jerry - and I thought that Ian Paisley Jr was very eloquent
with that speech in Portadown on the telly last night :)
Gerard Cunningham
Jér Guévara wrote:
[..]
>well. I'll discuss this with my anti-Catholic Catholic girlfriend and
Ms Thumb.
>her anti-Catholic Catholic friends
The four finger sisters.
-----
Gerard Cunningham abardubh at wwa dot com
http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/
"For a guide to what's really going on" -s.c.i. FAQ
lao...@rocketmail.com
In article <3529333d...@news.enterprise.net>,
may...@enterprise.net (Concerned Ulsterman) wrote:
> Paranoia is an important element in nationalist culture.
The "paranoia" come from the things like the following:
(source "25 Years of Terror - the IRA's war against the British" - Martin
Dillon)
"In the North, the Unionist government adopted the policy put forward by Lord
Craigavon in 1934 - that 'appointments made by the Government are made, so far
as we can manage it, of loyal men and women'. This meant that the majority of
government posts went to Protestants. Religious discrimination was central to
the maintenance of the State. It was considered dangerous to employ Catholics
whose community ethos was nationalist and republican. It was not only in
government posts and the civil service that doors were closed to Catholics; in
the private sector, employers were encouraged to make Protestant workers their
first choice. For example, advice given to employers by Sir Basil Brooke, a
Unionist minister (who later became Prime Minister of Northern Ireland), was
reported in his local paper the Fermanagh Times as follows: 'There were a
great number of Protestants and Orangement who employed Roman Catholics. He
felt he could speak freely on this subject as he had not had a Roman Catholic
about his own place. He appreciated the great difficulty experienced by some
of them in procuring suitable Protestant labour, but he would point out that
Roman Catholics were endeavouring to get in everywhere. He would appeal to
loyalists therefore, wherever possible, to employ good Protestant lads and
lasses.' The basic and unapologetic thesis of Unionism was articulated by Sir
Basil Brooke in these words: 'I recommend those people who are loyalists not
to employ Roman Catholics, 99 percent of whom are disloyal.' He reminded
Protestant employers that they 'had the ball at their feet', and if they did
not act decisively they would be a minority rather than a majority." p63-64
"Many councils in areas with a majority Catholic population were controlled by
Unionists through the process of gerrymandering - that is, manipulating
electoral boundaries to ensure that a particular party has a majority. The
Unionist Party encouraged both the undemocratic gerrymander and the unfair
allocation of housing to Protestants in the effort to deprive Catholics of
real power; there was also a deep-seated fear that Catholic rejection of birth
control would enable them to 'outbreed' their Protestant counterparts.....The
need to deny Catholics votes was central to the Protestant siege mentality,
and they believed that in their midst was a fifth column, the IRA, which was
bent on destroying the State with the support of the Catholic/nationalist
population." p65
"At the outset of partition, Britain had introduced proportional
representation to provide a fair electroal system for minorities - the
Catholics in Northern Ireland, and the Protestants living in Eire. British
political strategists had recognised that, without PR, Catholics in the new
state of Northern Ireland would suffer electorally. The initial result of PR
was that Catholics took almost one-third of all council seats in 1920. Two
years later Stormont scrapped PR and redrew the electoral boundaries. The
effect was to reduce the proportion of Catholic-controlled councils to only 3
per cent of the total. In some council areas where Catholics had claimed
victories in 1920, the suddenly found themselves in the minority, their
constituents under-represented." p66
"Unionist leaders rallied their supporters with anti-Catholic slogans when a
Northern Ireland election was called in February 1949. There were serious
outbreaks of violence, as Orangemen marched through Catholic areas announcing
their triumphalist right to march anywhere in 'their country'. The slogans
were familiar - 'No Surrender', 'No Pope Here', 'A Protestant Ulster for a
Protestant People' and 'Dublin Rule is Rome Rule'. The Northern Ireland Labour
Party, a Protestant-dominated organisation founded in 1924, fielded candidates
who were attempting to move the community away from the sectarianpolitics and
towards social issues, but they were were decisively defeated in the election,
while some of them were also physically beaten by loyalist mobs. The election
left the province with a small Catholic parliamentary Opposition - an ideal
result for a Unionist leadership which controlled its own people by feeding
them anti-Catholic rhetoric. What Unionism did not need was a growing Labour
movement which might dilute the tribal politics and thereby provide a credible
opposition to the monolith at Stormont. Catholics felt isolated, betrayed by
the politicians in Dublin and fearful that Unionist triumphalism would
continue unabated. The stage looked set for the return of the IRA." p72
"In 1955 Brian Faulkner, a leading Member of Parliament at Stormont, took part
in a display of triumphalism on a grand scale. There was a long running
dispute about Orange parades in the tiny enclave of Longstone Hill on the
Mourne Mountains. Each year Orangement insisted on marching along the
Longstone Road, despite protests on behalf of local Catholis. Faulkner marched
into the area along with 15,000 Orangemen, protected by large numbers of
policemen and the paramilitary B Specials. It was the Unionist riposte to the
Sinn Fein vote and to the Catholic community. The Orange Order and the
Stormont government failed to acknowledge the sectarian nature of the parades
and the offence they caused, and refused to recognise that Catholics had a
right to ask that parades be re-routed from their areas. As always in Northern
Ireland, the bigots won the day and Orangeism, which represented a valid and
colourful historical dimension of Unionism, became merely a vehicle for crude
sectarianism." p83
On the other hand, Unionists are completely unparanoid, as evidenced by the
following:
"Although Irish Special Branch and their counterparts in Britain did not see
the danger, the view in Northern Ireland was different. The Unionist
government and Ulster Protestants preferred to believe that the IRA was
capable of subversion even when it was a moribund force. The Northern State
was built with repressive legislation to deal with republianism, and it was
convenient for successive Unionist leaders to warn that the IRA was forever
resent within the Catholic population. The threat of a fifth column allowed
Unionist leaders to control and shape Protestant attitudes and politics.
When Northern Ireland Protestants moved away from the doctrine that the State
was a 'Protestant parliament for a Protestant people', they were quickly
brought back into line with the dire warning that the IRA was plotting to
overthrow 'Ulster'." p7
> It was the
> nationalists who demanded (why do nationalists never ask?) a parade
> copmmission in the first place. The first decision of the commission
> was to support Gerard Rice's demand for the Apprentice Boys' march to
> be banned on the Ormeau Road. So what does Gerry do? Why he seeks a
> judicial review against the commission, because its two Protestant
> members are too protestant.
>
> You couldn't please nationalists.
>
> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
Be concerned. Be very concerned.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How would you like this
treatment when the country shakes off partition?
Laochra
Jér Guévara
On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:41:00 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:00:22 GMT, J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols
Last night, the 6th??? What did he say?
Jér Guévara
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:24:08 GMT, char...@dnet.co.uk (Alan D Red)
wrote:
>ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.) wrote:
>
>>In rubbishing the deal LOCC questioned why the Apprentice Boys
>>insist on taking this route and asked them to ``face up to their
>>responsibility, address the legitimate fears and grievances of our
>>community and enter into dialogue.''
>
>Its a main thoroughfare to the city centre,
>catholics do not own it. Its not as if we march up
>the side streets. The locc wouldnt even compromise
>when hymns were proposed, when silence at the
>bookies was proposed, when a reduction in numbers
>was proposed.
>
> They are the intransigent shitstirrers in all
>this, in the shadow of the Sinn Fein godfathers,
>they do their will in fear of their own safety.
>
> Strang how the people that Greig calls
>''protectors'' of the victim community are cowered
>from, by those they purport to defend.
Spot on.. Let the truth be told.
Jér Guévara
On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 03:18:46 GMT, Ger@r.d (Gerard Cunningham) wrote:
>Jér Guévara wrote:
>
>[..]
>>well. I'll discuss this with my anti-Catholic Catholic girlfriend and
>
>Ms Thumb.
>
>>her anti-Catholic Catholic friends
>
>The four finger sisters.
Ooooh cheeky.. You dispute the existence of the lovely Miss Guevara?
:-)
Big Mac
On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:40:13 GMT, J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols
(Jér Guévara) wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:41:00 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:00:22 GMT, J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols
>>(Jér Guévara) wrote:
>>>Well said. I agree 100% if you take my name out :)
>>
>>Oh yes Jerry - and I thought that Ian Paisley Jr was very eloquent
>>with that speech in Portadown on the telly last night :)
>
>Last night, the 6th??? What did he say?
Monday night, on "Panorama". IP couldn't quite see the point of
negotiations with the IRA. "Physical extermination" made more sense
to him.
I guess he's not represented in the talks either. He seemed very
popular in Portadown, though.
pecker@play
Jér Guévara <J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols> wrote:
> Spot on.. Let the truth be told.
> ***************************************************
> Jerry
Was it you who posted in the "survey"
Ormeau survey ``barely credible''
By Ned Kelly
Professor Bob Eccleshall, head of the Department of Politics at
Queen's University Belfast, has dismissed the research findings of
Queen's student Vincent McKenna who, under the guise of the
Ormeau Road `Charter for Change', claimed to have carried out a
survey which found that 80% of Catholics would be happy to allow
Orange marches down the Lower Ormeau Road.
The `survey' was seized on by Orangemen and Apprentice Boys as
justification for their failure to enter into dialogue with the Lower
Ormeau Concerned Community (LOCC).
Professor Eccleshall said that the ``methodology [used] is seriously
flawed and its findings are barely credible.'' He said a professional
study would have dealt with the complex issue of contentious parades
in a completely different way. One such study by Coopers & Lybrand
in 1996 found that 95% of residents wanted parades re-routed.
Eccleshall's letter, it is now thought, will put paid to those claims
made by McKenna and the Ballynafeigh Apprentice Boys that a deal
on marches through the Lower Ormeau is possible without talks
between the Apprentice Boys and representatives of the Lower Ormeau
community. A deal announced at a press conference last week claimed
that Charter for Change and the Apprentice Boys could meet a number
of conditions regarding the first Orange parade down the road on
Easter Monday.
In rubbishing the deal LOCC questioned why the Apprentice Boys
insist on taking this route and asked them to ``face up to their
responsibility, address the legitimate fears and grievances of our
community and enter into dialogue.''
Sinn Fein's South Belfast Councillor, Sean Hayes commenting after
the McKenna press conference at the Ballynafeigh Orange Hall said,
``This is a smokescreen created purely for their own interests and will
serve absolutely no-one. Vincent McKenna doesn't represent the views
and concerns of the community. The Orange Order is well aware of
this fact. It should stop engaging in stunts and meet Gerard Rice.''
Prof Eccleshall's criticisms of the report centred on the number of
researchers used and the timescale of the survey. Also he was
extremely alarmed at the number of residents from the Upper and
Lower Ormeau Road who didn't believe a survey had actually
occurred. Gerard Rice of the LOCC said, ``we have been unable to
find a single resident who actually filled in McKenna's survey.''
McKenna claims to have interviewed 400 Catholics and Protestants
out of the 9,200 registered voters in the area.
Despite Prof Eccleshall's plea, ``that nobody would be foolish enough
to use the survey to give pseudo-scientific respectability to opinions''
the Apprentice Boys entered into dialogue with the now discredited
McKenna.
Greig
--
Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
cker...@hotmail.com
In article <1d6z54z.12n...@pm1-236.dial.nildram.co.uk>,
ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.) wrote:
>
> <kfuz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nationalist and Unionists - The Pair of You Should Be Ashamed of
Yourselves.
>
> DITTO NAZIS and JEWS ? DITTO ARMENIANS AND TURKS?
>
> Sorry thats complete shit.
>
>
Northern Ireland, in america that is called multiculturism -ckerryman
Jér Guévara
On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:42:48 -0600, lao...@rocketmail.com wrote:
[snip]
>> You couldn't please nationalists.
>>
>> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
>
>Be concerned. Be very concerned.
>"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How would you like this
>treatment when the country shakes off partition?
Which country? Northern Ireland isn't partitioned, Eire isn't
partitioned... Just what are you on about?
Jér Guévara
On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:48:10 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
wrote:
>>>Oh yes Jerry - and I thought that Ian Paisley Jr was very eloquent
>>>with that speech in Portadown on the telly last night :)
>>
>>Last night, the 6th??? What did he say?
>
>Monday night, on "Panorama". IP couldn't quite see the point of
>negotiations with the IRA. "Physical extermination" made more sense
>to him.
Makes more sense to me too.
>
>I guess he's not represented in the talks either. He seemed very
>popular in Portadown, though.
>
He impressed me yesterday evening .
Jerry
Ulster is nobody's Czechoslovakia
Jér Guévara
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:40:18 +0000, ta...@nildram.co.uk (pecker@play)
wrote:
>Jér Guévara <J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols> wrote:
>
>> Spot on.. Let the truth be told.
>> ***************************************************
>> Jerry
>
>
>Was it you who posted in the "survey"
>
>
>
>Ormeau survey ``barely credible''
>By Ned Kelly
Ned Flanders more like...
>
>Professor Bob Eccleshall, head of the Department of Politics at
>Queen's University Belfast, has dismissed the research findings of
>Queen's student Vincent McKenna who, under the guise of the
>Ormeau Road `Charter for Change', claimed to have carried out a
>survey which found that 80% of Catholics would be happy to allow
>Orange marches down the Lower Ormeau Road.
under the guise???? why say that.. It's the name of the organisation.
>In rubbishing the deal LOCC questioned why the Apprentice Boys
>insist on taking this route and asked them to ``face up to their
>responsibility, address the legitimate fears and grievances of our
>community and enter into dialogue.''
Why enter into dialogue with the LOCC/SF/IRA when they have already
stated that the AB's can't walk down that road... Do the IRA own the
road now?
>Sinn Fein's South Belfast Councillor, Sean Hayes commenting after
>the McKenna press conference at the Ballynafeigh Orange Hall said,
>``This is a smokescreen created purely for their own interests and will
>serve absolutely no-one. Vincent McKenna doesn't represent the views
>and concerns of the community. The Orange Order is well aware of
>this fact. It should stop engaging in stunts and meet Gerard Rice.''
Just out of interest is Sean Hayes the IRA man who phoned McKenna and
threatened to kill him? or maybe he's the IRA man who threw a burning
log into his toddler childs cot? Yes/No?
>
>Prof Eccleshall's criticisms of the report centred on the number of
>researchers used and the timescale of the survey. Also he was
>extremely alarmed at the number of residents from the Upper and
>Lower Ormeau Road who didn't believe a survey had actually
>occurred. Gerard Rice of the LOCC said, ``we have been unable to
>find a single resident who actually filled in McKenna's survey.''
That's because Gerard Rice lives in North Down.. Like over 10 miles
from the Ormeau Rd.
>Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
And McKenna is on the IRA deathsquad hit-list. Probably drawn up by 2
of the men you mention above...
BTW, has Gerard Rice any convictions and if so what for?
Big Mac
On Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:06:39 GMT, J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols
(Jér Guévara) wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:48:10 GMT, macdo...@ferengi.co.uk (Big Mac)
>wrote:
>
>>>>Oh yes Jerry - and I thought that Ian Paisley Jr was very eloquent
>>>>with that speech in Portadown on the telly last night :)
>>>
>>>Last night, the 6th??? What did he say?
>>
>>Monday night, on "Panorama". IP couldn't quite see the point of
>>negotiations with the IRA. "Physical extermination" made more sense
>>to him.
>
>Makes more sense to me too.
And that's my point. I'm completely opposed to your politics, Jerry.
But I'm even more opposed to the way that so-called "extremists", ie.
large numbers of ordinary Catholics and Protestants, have had their
views excluded or diluted in the "peace process". It's a travesty of
democracy, about as far from Irish self-determination - or even a
genuine "principle of consent" - as you could be. The ultimate
arbiter of the "peace process" doesn't even live in Ireland - he has
an oval office 3000 miles away.
Some others are more opportunistic and think that some good can come
out of this. I regard it as 21st century partition.
lao...@rocketmail.com
In article <352b8421...@news.dnet.co.uk>,
J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols (Jér Guévara) wrote:
>
> On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:42:48 -0600, lao...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >>
> >> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
> >
> >Be concerned. Be very concerned.
> >"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How would you like this
> >treatment when the country shakes off partition?
>
> partitioned... Just what are you on about?
Where's Eire?
Frank Matthews
A bit west of a Scotland that's moving toward freedom.
Frank Matthews
lao...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <352b8421...@news.dnet.co.uk>,
> J...@braver.than.brave.bolivia.bols (Jér Guévara) wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:42:48 -0600, lao...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > >> You couldn't please nationalists.
> > >>
> > >> CONCERNED ULSTERMAN
> > >
> > >Be concerned. Be very concerned.
> > >"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How would you like this
> > >treatment when the country shakes off partition?
> >
> > Which country? Northern Ireland isn't partitioned, Eire isn't
> > partitioned... Just what are you on about?
>
> Where's Eire?
>
C D Edmondson
cker...@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <1d6z54z.12n...@pm1-236.dial.nildram.co.uk>,
> ta...@nildram.co.uk (Bollox Inc.) wrote:
>>
>> <kfuz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Nationalist and Unionists - The Pair of You Should Be Ashamed of
>Yourselves.
>>
>> DITTO NAZIS and JEWS ? DITTO ARMENIANS AND TURKS?
>>
>> Sorry thats complete shit.
>>
>> Greig
>>
>Northern Ireland, in america that is called multiculturism -ckerryman
Yep, the USA is one big happy family-not.
Christopher
==============
Working on it!
cker...@hotmail.com
In article <6gq6cr$3bv$2...@news.u-net.com>,
Modra Dubh
cker...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The more you work on it,the worse it will get.---ckerryman
And exactly how much time have you spent in the States, my worrysome
little wart? To borrow an oft used expression from this newsgroup,
"You, living three thousand miles away, presume to instruct us?"
-Conway
--
Bionn chuile dhuine lach go dteann bo ina gharrai
Jeff
Bollox Inc. wrote:
<kfuz...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Nationalist and Unionists - The Pair of You Should Be Ashamed of Yourselves.
DITTO NAZIS and JEWS ? DITTO ARMENIANS AND TURKS?
Sorry thats complete shit.
Greig
Let us not forget the British governments hand in the "troubles". Bloody Sunday is a start. The British government's allowance for the RUC (Royal Ulster Constablry) to run campaign of terror in NI is atrocious. The United Nations just issued a report condemning the UK for human rights violations in NI. I don't believe that Tony Blair would intentionally allow these things to happen. It is a matter of old policy and old leaders with old ideas that need to be reformed. Peace will not come overnight just because of the Peace agreement. All sides will have to forgive the past and strive for a new future. The british "hate" and "racism" toward the Irish, that only seems to be apparant to the outside world will need to end also.
It seems only Americans and Irish understand Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. While the British media tries to pull them down, the American media now recognizes and relates with their struggle to free themselves from a government that does not work for the benefit of all of its citizens, only the ones loyal to the throne. A throne which now scars from world opinion since the death of Princess Diana.
A gradual change is being seen in the UK since Tony Blair. Under his leadership, a more compassionate stance is being enacted in NI, and now we see the monarchy is undergoing a reorganization. Will William ever be king? I don't personally think that the monarchy will last that long. William may be the first democratically elected President of the EU.
lao...@rocketmail.com
In article <352E6D41...@GAUSS.CL.UH.EDU>,
Frank Matthews <matt...@GAUSS.CL.UH.EDU> wrote:
>
> A bit west of a Scotland that's moving toward freedom.
Shag that, I want Scotland too.
Robin Popplestone
> It seems only Americans and Irish understand Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. While the
> British media tries to pull them down, the American media now recognizes and
> relates with their struggle to free themselves from a government that does not
> work for the benefit of all of its citizens, only the ones loyal to the throne. A
> throne which now scars from world opinion since the death of Princess Diana.
The American media have blown up Gerry Adams into a figure more important than
is justified by his share of the vote. Sinn Fein is NOT the biggest nationalist
party in Northern Ireland. The SDLP is. Sinn Fein is a TINY party in the
Irish Republic.
Robin.
Ted O'Donovan
On 15 Apr 98 21:30:35 GMT, p...@cs.umass.edu ( Robin Popplestone )
wrote:
Some here admire Adams/Sinn Fein out of a shared belief in their end
goal, some dislike them because of their association with the IRA,
although they may share their goal of a United Ireland. Most would
prefer the goal is achieved through democratic means. Then, of
course, there are some who are completely indifferent to what is
happening in N.I., or anywhere else in the world, for that matter.
I have often wondered what would happen if the Royal Family decided to
convert to Catholicism. Would those Unionists who profess undying
allegiance and loyalty to the Crown continue to do so. Somehow, I
doubt it. It would certainly test the sincerity of their loyalty.
There are probably Britons who curse the day they ever got involved
with Ireland. Establishing the Plantation of Ulster created a kind
of "Frankenstein Monster" that just won't go away. With the
headache of trying to maintain order, and the cost of subsidizing the
N.I economy and social welfare, Britain would probably like to be rid
of it. To its credit, Britain is not walking away from a problem that
she created, but is trying(finally) to solve the situation with some
degree of realism. .
Regards, Ted.
Greagoir
Jeff <ori...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Let us not forget the British governments hand in the "troubles". Bloody
> Sunday is a start. The British government's allowance for the RUC (Royal
> Ulster Constablry) to run campaign of terror in NI is atrocious. The
> United Nations just issued a report condemning the UK for human rights
> violations in NI. I don't believe that Tony Blair would intentionally
> allow these things to happen. It is a matter of old policy and old
> leaders with old ideas that need to be reformed. Peace will not come
> overnight just because of the Peace agreement. All sides will have to
> forgive the past and strive for a new future.
Seems very sensible. Thanks for the reply.
Greig
--