Marriage turning into a crisis for young Iranians
Ala
TEHRAN, Dec 4 (AFP) - Marriage in Iran, which has one of the
world's youngest populations, is turning into one of the country's
biggest headcahes, with young people facing both traditional taboos
and tough economic choices.
There are about 10 million Iranians of marriageable age, who
have found themselves frustrated in their search for happiness.
Now state television has intervened in the search for a way out
of Iran's "marriage crisis." It has been broadcasting a series of
nightly talk shows with young people describing the problems they
face and expressing their views on cultural taboos.
Almost all the young men and women have called for radical
changes to break free of the old shackles.
While most families are still bound by traditional values, the
younger generation consider arranged marriage as outdated and want
to get to know each other before committing themselves to marriage.
Islamic laws strictly observed since the 1979 revolution have
done nothing to make this easier, as they virtually forbid all
encounters between young men and women in public.
Materialistic concerns are also an obstacle, especially among
the better off families.
Middle-class families often demand that prospective husbands
should have a good job with "prospects" before agreeing to let them
marry their daughters.
A standard practice is to demand a considerable number of gold
coins from the groom as a security in case of divorce.
Then there are the wedding expenses and presents for the bride -
a must for any self-respecting bridegroom - that can exceed 20 or 30
million rials (6,000 to 10,000 dollars at the official exchange
rate.)
The media and clerics often criticize such extravagant customs,
asking that families be less "demanding".
This is basically the message the television programmes seek to
relay to the public.
"If a couple know each other and go out together before getting
married, they could resolve a whole lot of things and do without
senseless expenses," said a young girl student on television.
But that may be easier said than done.
An average worker in Iran needs to work two shifts to be able to
afford just the rent on a small apartment -- if he has a job at
all.
Good jobs are not easy to come by nowadays in Iran, where there
are around two million unemployed. The number is expected to go on
rising as some 10 million young people enter the job market in the
next few years.
Young people's votes were decisive in President Mohammad
Khatami's landslide electoral victory in May 1997, and most still
expect the government to help provide them with a brighter future.
But some have already succumbed to despair and are turning more
and more to drugs. There is a thriving market for hashish and opium,
in a country which lies on the direct smuggling route from Pakistan
and Afghanistan.
But although Khatami may not have fulfilled the economic needs
of the young, he has at least managed to ease draconian regulations
placed around their life.
Middle-class youth mainly in big cities have found a way to
forget their economic woes by imitating their Western counterparts
in dress and social habits.
Slipping away from the watchful eyes of "moral" cops, unmarried
couples meet and hold hands in parks, movie theaters, trendy coffee
shops and pizzarias with an ease unprecedented since the
revolution.
In a western-style cafe, over a glass of locally produced cola
or French coffee and without their parents or the "moral" police
intruding, they may find it easier to discuss their future life.
Cyrus Raafat
Salaam. I would first like to say that having returned from a trip to
Iran; after 20 years, I'd like to make a few comments regarding this
matter. But before I do, I'd like to quickly mention that while I was in
Iran, I did not relegate myself to the posh, more affluent areas of
northern-Tehran, and made an effort within the brief month I was there,
to extensively visit all segments of the socio-economic society, and
evaluate it from a social scientist's perspective. Now, due to an
extreme lack of time, I'll very briefly surmise and summarize my
experience with regards to this very issue from a first-hand
perspective.
Now, most of what has been written in this "article" by this so-called
"news source" ("AFP",and by the way, what does that stand for and who
owns this amateur-news source, and Mr."Ala" who are you???)
I'd like to say that the Iranian society astonished me with it's
resilience, adaptability, and extreme promise and opennes....completely
took off guard and I was actually shocked!
I'm just gonna say that Tehran and most of the cities have had both an
oversupply due to overbuilding of apartments in the last five
years--both for lower income areas as well as higher income areas, which
has resulted in a glut in the market. "Apartment Agencies" are in
everycorner....And, as far as wages are concerned, while they are
somewhat stagnant and low; the cost of living is quite low due to an
overproduction in food stuffs; housing; cheap fuel; etc(This would be
credited to former-President Rafsanjani's program which is starting to
come to fruition, one would suspect; as well as the highly
specialization of the production and selling of home grown industries'
products and so on by the private sector--they've over produced and so
the prices have dropped to match the social need, ECON 101).ETC.
In terms of the culture, certainly "dating" per se by the "American Sex,
Drugs, and RockNRoll" version is not acceptable at all--it's an Islamic
Society, and Iranians are conservative paternalists anyhow--so, my
observation was that the vast majority of the unmarried-couples roaming
around in parks, malls, and trendy streets were more than likely engaged
or in the process of "khastehgari" with the full consent of the parents,
or at least the mother of the girl. And I'd also like to say that the
VAST MAJORITY OF THE GIRLS DO NOT GO OUT ALONE IN SUCH A MANNER WITHOUT
CHAPERONES.
Most of the "khastegari" that goes on is extremely controlled and
monitored by the parents; and even the most liberal, westernized parents
to be extremely blunt DO NOT HAVE ANY INCLINATION whatsoever to permit
their daughters to "date"(ie meaning, so called "Iranian dating" which
is like 1940s in the Europe/U.S.) in any prolonged
manner, and would seriously punish their daughters(even sons?) if they
found out anything beyond holding hands occured.(I estimate that 97.5%
of all girls in Iran
are virgins!)
Secondly, most Iranian girls--religious, or secularized(which is really
a misnomer, b/c even the daughters of western-educated, millionaires'
seem to have some minimal religiousity/affection for spirituality even
if totally SUPERFICIALLY/OUTWARDLY pretending to be like the
SpiceGirls)....And even those make-up wearing secularized girls would
NOT gain anything by having premarrital sex, unless they thought they
could ENTRAP the "overseas Iranian guy" into marrying her, which most of
them seemed smarted than that.
Thirdly, most of the working-class families have actually readjusted
their "expectations" from the groom, since most of the girls from that
segment are more religious and work anyhow....And most of those
upperclass girls want to have "careers" or be housewives, so they
understand, like most Europeans that two incomes are better than one.
Fourthly, because the cost of a very expensive wedding with over 500
guests can, indeed reach up to $5,000-$7,000(that includes private-band,
ring, dress, and honeymoon to Qishm, or shomal at first-class hotel for
1 week, with all meals, ETC) included....most middle class-people simply
have the wedding in Karaj, where caterers can bring the same deal in
half. And most of those guys who do that usually are making about
$30-50thousand a year anyhow....so what the heck?
Let me also mention that this is total BULL SHIT about there being "drug
addicts" and poverty! There is absolutely NO SUCH A THING AT ALL! A
omplete rubbish lie...There are no beggars at all, in any sections of
the entire country, except for some 'colies' or
illegal-immigrant-Afghan, or blind/disabled people who sell "falleh
Hafiz" to supplement their incomes. People are not stupid.
Every country has drug-addicts, but in the city of Baltimore,
USA(pop.700,000)there are about 4,000 drug-addicts, they are everywhere
and they are maggots on the disqusting, dying city of
functionally-illiterates with crime so bad that about 400 people are
murdered every year for crying out loud!!
Let me just say that the parks in Tehran are like little-oasis' of
paradise:civility and consideration....Tehran has 12million people(and
even if there are 200 addicts and maybe a few hundred deflowered
village-girls are prostitutes)...But WHO CARES??? At least you can walk
down any street at anytime of night with a nice girl, holding hands and
the LEAST OF ALL worries is the "komiteh"(who actually are no where to
be found?)And when they are, they usually say, "Salam" and walk on by.
Gotta run,
Cyrus
Padideh
Cyrus Raafat wrote in message <3668DF...@erols.com>...
>Dear Sir,
>
>Salaam. I would first like to say that having returned from a trip to
>Iran; after 20 years, I'd like to make a few comments regarding this
>matter. But before I do, I'd like to quickly mention that while I was in
>Iran, I did not relegate myself to the posh, more affluent areas of
>northern-Tehran, and made an effort within the brief month I was there,
>to extensively visit all segments of the socio-economic society, and
>evaluate it from a social scientist's perspective. Now, due to an
>extreme lack of time, I'll very briefly surmise and summarize my
>experience with regards to this very issue from a first-hand
>perspective.
Naff off, Cyrus. Naff off (into my kill file). Shoo ... Shoo ...
You are as ridiculous (and pretentious) as your "due to extreme
lack of time, I'll briefly ... " (bore you to tears with a 10kb post).
Padideh.(apologizes to the rest of SCI for momentarily losing her temper)
Cyrus Raafat
Hello, once again. I really don't comprehend your intention in your
response? But that's OK....Let me just ask you a simple, but personal
question, if you aren't the type of person who gets offended easily;
would you happen to be a virgin? And if not, then at what age, and by
whom(nationality, race, religion, etc)took it from you(political
correctness dictates that I say rather, "whom did you GIVE IT SO
CHEAPLY TO"?).
Thanks for this opportunity to express so freely my unabashed comments,
Cy
PS-LAREDNEC, Thanks for the comments bro, I think the question isn't if
Padideh is becoming "torshi", but is she's still "bahal" or not?:)
Padideh wrote:
> (deletions)
michelle
Padideh <Padid...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<74bgf2$s...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> Cyrus Raafat wrote in message <3668DF...@erols.com>...
> >Dear Sir,
> >
> >Salaam. I would first like to say that having returned from a trip to
> >Iran; after 20 years, I'd like to make a few comments regarding this
> >matter. But before I do, I'd like to quickly mention that while I was in
> >Iran, I did not relegate myself to the posh, more affluent areas of
> >northern-Tehran, and made an effort within the brief month I was there,
> >to extensively visit all segments of the socio-economic society, and
> >evaluate it from a social scientist's perspective. Now, due to an
> >extreme lack of time, I'll very briefly surmise and summarize my
> >experience with regards to this very issue from a first-hand
> >perspective.
>
> Naff off, Cyrus. Naff off (into my kill file). Shoo ... Shoo ...
>
> You are as ridiculous (and pretentious) as your "due to extreme
> lack of time, I'll briefly ... " (bore you to tears with a 10kb post).
>
>
> Padideh.(apologizes to the rest of SCI for momentarily losing her temper)
This is exactly what I meant by saying that I didn't think anyone
on the group should be boycotted or the group moderated...
I've read many posts (and not just on this group) that really disturbed
me and made me think that the world was going to heck in a handbasket.
In fact when I bought my first computer 2.5 years ago and logged onto the
internet
I tried to avoid newsgroups because it disturbed me so much.
However since then my eyes and mind have opened up to so many new things
that I now think that the internet is the single most important discovery
since the automobile was invented.As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
temper,
but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
it...)
BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
Michelle
>
>
>
Padideh
michelle wrote:
>
> This is exactly what I meant by saying that I didn't think anyone
>on the group should be boycotted or the group moderated...
>I've read many posts (and not just on this group) that really disturbed
>me and made me think that the world was going to heck in a handbasket.
>In fact when I bought my first computer 2.5 years ago and logged onto the
>internet
>I tried to avoid newsgroups because it disturbed me so much.
>However since then my eyes and mind have opened up to so many new things
>that I now think that the internet is the single most important discovery
>since the automobile was invented.As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
>temper,
>but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
>it...)
>BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
>
>Michelle
>
>
Michelle jAn,
I did not read Cyrus's post beyond where I wrote my message.
[Actually, to start off with when I read his 'Dear Sir', I thought he
was writing in to SCI to ask if we needed someone to come in
and mop the floors for us.]
As for the Boycott list, Michelle jAn, the list has revolutionized
SCI. It's the best thing that's ever happened around here. Think
laterally and you will see what I mean.
Thank you for your feedback all the same.
Regards,
Padideh.
Padideh
michelle wrote >
[...]
>...everyone should have a
>right to
>be here and speak their mind in my oppinion.
In what way would you say the list has denied anyone's
quote right to be here and speak their mind unquote?
Padideh.
Arman
michelle wrote:
>
> Padideh <Padid...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <74chd6$s...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
> Padideh,
>
> I'm not Iranian so none of this is really any of my business
> and maybe I don't belong here,however I'll try to give everyone
> my 2 cents worth.
>
> The only thing that I've seen the boycott list do is get rid of Dick Aahan
> and maybe made Mehri joon start taking his prozac again.Other than that
> as an observer it reminds me of the cliches (social groups) we had in
> highschool.I always managed to stay neutural and tried not to join
> groups,but I always hated to see people left out ...everyone should have a
> right to
> be here and speak their mind in my oppinion.
>
> Please feel free to flame me anytime you want:)))I'm tough:)))
>
Michelle,
Sounds to me you are looking to get flamed. I am not up to it
today. So you'll have to forgive me.
I just want to remind you (and everyone) that the boycott list's
intention was not to exclude anyone from anything. The people in
that list still can and do speak their "mind". The only
difference now is that people who have _signed the list do not
get involved in flame wars with these people. This is what has
made the major difference in SCI. I think this is about the third
time that I have replied to a post of yours to make this
distinction. You would save everyone, and yourself, a lot of time
if you took the time to read these.
Thank you,
Arman
> Sincerely,
> Michelle.
>
>
> >
> > Padideh.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Arman
michelle wrote:
>
> Arman <Arma...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <3669D1C6...@yahoo.com>...
> >
> > Michelle,
> >
> > Sounds to me you are looking to get flamed. I am not up to it
> > today. So you'll have to forgive me.
>
>
> No,I'm not looking to get flamed,however,I didn't want Padideh
> to think she had to be nice and polite in responding if she didn't
> want to.At the end of the day,I'll still consider her a cyber friend.
>
> > I just want to remind you (and everyone) that the boycott list's
> > intention was not to exclude anyone from anything. The people in
> > that list still can and do speak their "mind". The only
> > difference now is that people who have _signed the list do not
> > get involved in flame wars with these people. This is what has
> > made the major difference in SCI. I think this is about the third
> > time that I have replied to a post of yours to make this
> > distinction. You would save everyone, and yourself, a lot of time
> > if you took the time to read these.
> >
>
> Yes Arman,I read as many of your posts as I can and have not
> killfiled you...I guess I'm having a hard time getting my point across.
> The way the boycott list comes across to me,is that the people
> who sign it are in some way more superior than everyone else,
> posting other people to avoid like they have committed murder,instead
> of "legally" posting their garbage.I respect the fact that there are a
> group
> of about ten or so of you that are good friends and get together sometimes
> and all of that,but that comes across as supremist (is that a word:)))
> and may scare off someone who genuinely has something of value to
> say (but the rest of us may be extremely offended by it.)
> Maybe I'm making some kind of sense...
No Michelle, you are not making much sense here. Why do you
consider the list a supremacist thing is beyond me. Anybody can
join that list, including YOU! So there you go, no need to get
scared off. This is not a club you know. It's a social contract
between a number of SCIers to help reduce the trash on SCI. It's
not any more supremacist than when you sign a lease to rent an
apartment.
> and this is nothing personal(you
> have every
> right to do this),I'm just stating my point of view.
> Besides...it doesn't matter what any of us thinks,because Mo is going to
> take over
> the net soon with his posts!!!
>
Who is Mo?
Arman
> Michelle
michelle
Padideh,
Sincerely,
Michelle.
>
> Padideh.
>
>
>
>
>
MrMojoMan
michelle wrote in message <01be20ad$a8a3f120$0b0edfd1@x>...
>
>
> Padideh,
>
> I'm not Iranian so none of this is really any of my business
>and maybe I don't belong here,however I'll try to give everyone
>my 2 cents worth.
>
You may not be Iranian, none the less you are more than welcome to have an
input if your 2 cents is worth at least that or even less.
> The only thing that I've seen the boycott list do is get rid of Dick Aahan
>and maybe made Mehri joon start taking his prozac again.Other than that
>as an observer it reminds me of the cliches (social groups) we had in
>highschool.I always managed to stay neutural and tried not to join
>groups,but I always hated to see people left out ...everyone should have a
>right to
>be here and speak their mind in my oppinion.
Yes indeed. And will you please tell us how the least is preventing anyone
from speaking their mind?
>
>Please feel free to flame me anytime you want:)))I'm tough:)))
>
Michele, why are you so anxious to get flamed? :)
---
--- MrMojoMan
---
michelle
Maybe I'm making some kind of sense... and this is nothing personal(you
have every
right to do this),I'm just stating my point of view.
Besides...it doesn't matter what any of us thinks,because Mo is going to
take over
the net soon with his posts!!!
Michelle
MrMojoMan
michelle wrote in message <01be20be$c6c61d20$bd0edfd1@x>...
>
>
>Yes Arman,I read as many of your posts as I can and have not
>killfiled you...I guess I'm having a hard time getting my point across.
>The way the boycott list comes across to me,is that the people
>who sign it are in some way more superior than everyone else,
>posting other people to avoid like they have committed murder,instead
>of "legally" posting their garbage.
I am not sure what your last sentence means, but you are wrong about the
"superior" part. Actually it is just the opposite. It proves that the
signatories need each other's support in order to gain the strength to fight
the urge to respond garbage with garbage. And that fact makes us all just
mere mortals.
What ignoring these folks accomplishes is:
1) Cutting down the number of threads which are just exchange of
profanities.
2) Gives the signatories more time to post more interesting articles
3) Isolates the offenders to be exposed to the rest of the subscribers, by
showing how the offenders continue their profanity even when not provoked.
IMO these are the most important accomplishments of the Boycott_List. There
are others like Ala who do the same (ignore these guys) on their own. And I
admire that as well. Then there are those who prefer to answer fire with
fire, and I do respect them for what they do.
There are many ways to fight this problem, and the list is just one of them.
>I respect the fact that there are a group of about ten or so of you that
are good
>friends and get together sometimes
>and all of that,but that comes across as supremist (is that a word:)))
Are you saying you view friendship as a form of enforcing one's
"supremacy"?!!
Will you please elaborate on that.
>and may scare off someone who genuinely has something of value to
>say (but the rest of us may be extremely offended by it.)
That would be very unfortunate if true, because that is not anyone's
intention here.
>Maybe I'm making some kind of sense... and this is nothing personal(you
>have every
>right to do this),I'm just stating my point of view.
And your are very much entitled to do so.
---
--- MrMojoMan
---
michelle
Arman <Arma...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
>
>
> michelle wrote:
> >
> > Arman <Arma...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> > <3669D1C6...@yahoo.com>...
> > >
> > > Michelle,
> > >
> > > Sounds to me you are looking to get flamed. I am not up to it
> > > today. So you'll have to forgive me.
> >
> >
> > No,I'm not looking to get flamed,however,I didn't want Padideh
> > to think she had to be nice and polite in responding if she didn't
> > want to.At the end of the day,I'll still consider her a cyber friend.
> >
> > > I just want to remind you (and everyone) that the boycott list's
> > > intention was not to exclude anyone from anything. The people in
> > > that list still can and do speak their "mind". The only
> > > difference now is that people who have _signed the list do not
> > > get involved in flame wars with these people. This is what has
> > > made the major difference in SCI. I think this is about the third
> > > time that I have replied to a post of yours to make this
> > > distinction. You would save everyone, and yourself, a lot of time
> > > if you took the time to read these.
> > >
> >
> > Yes Arman,I read as many of your posts as I can and have not
> > killfiled you...I guess I'm having a hard time getting my point across.
> > The way the boycott list comes across to me,is that the people
> > who sign it are in some way more superior than everyone else,
> > posting other people to avoid like they have committed murder,instead
> > of "legally" posting their garbage.I respect the fact that there are a
> > group
> > of about ten or so of you that are good friends and get together
sometimes
> > and all of that,but that comes across as supremist (is that a word:)))
> > and may scare off someone who genuinely has something of value to
> > say (but the rest of us may be extremely offended by it.)
> > Maybe I'm making some kind of sense...
>
>
> No Michelle, you are not making much sense here. Why do you
> consider the list a supremacist thing is beyond me.
I guess for the same reason I complain about Mehram's lists
in his SCI guide...haven't you complained at one time or another
that he shouldn't have the right to post others names on his lists?
The supremacy thing is in referance to the fact that most of the people
on the list are considered the "good guys" and write some of the more
popular posts
and are oldtimers,so it can be pretty intimidating for a lone person with
a controversial view to be bombarded with the threat of being boycotted
and chastized by all 22 of you at once.
More later,
Michelle
Anybody can
> join that list, including YOU! So there you go, no need to get
> scared off. This is not a club you know.
It's a social contract
> between a number of SCIers to help reduce the trash on SCI. It's
> not any more supremacist than when you sign a lease to rent an
> apartment.
>
>
> > and this is nothing personal(you
> > have every
> > right to do this),I'm just stating my point of view.
> > Besides...it doesn't matter what any of us thinks,because Mo is going
to
> > take over
> > the net soon with his posts!!!
> >
>
>
> Who is Mo?
>
> Arman
michelle
MrMojoMan <mr_mo...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<74crfq$g...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> michelle wrote in message <01be20be$c6c61d20$bd0edfd1@x>...
> >
> >
> >Yes Arman,I read as many of your posts as I can and have not
> >killfiled you...I guess I'm having a hard time getting my point across.
> >The way the boycott list comes across to me,is that the people
> >who sign it are in some way more superior than everyone else,
> >posting other people to avoid like they have committed murder,instead
> >of "legally" posting their garbage.
>
> I am not sure what your last sentence means, but you are wrong about the
> "superior" part. Actually it is just the opposite. It proves that the
> signatories need each other's support in order to gain the strength to
fight
> the urge to respond garbage with garbage. And that fact makes us all just
> mere mortals.
>
> What ignoring these folks accomplishes is:
>
> 1) Cutting down the number of threads which are just exchange of
> profanities.
> 2) Gives the signatories more time to post more interesting articles
> 3) Isolates the offenders to be exposed to the rest of the subscribers,
by
> showing how the offenders continue their profanity even when not
provoked.
>
Well...I can't argue with why you're doing this,just the how.
> IMO these are the most important accomplishments of the Boycott_List.
There
> are others like Ala who do the same (ignore these guys) on their own. And
I
> admire that as well. Then there are those who prefer to answer fire with
> fire, and I do respect them for what they do.
>
> There are many ways to fight this problem, and the list is just one of
them.
>
>
> >I respect the fact that there are a group of about ten or so of you that
> are good
> >friends and get together sometimes
> >and all of that,but that comes across as supremist (is that a word:)))
>
> Are you saying you view friendship as a form of enforcing one's
> "supremacy"?!!
> Will you please elaborate on that.
>
No,just that when you argue with one of you now,you get the whole group
jumping on you...it could be intimidating and I would like to see the other
more controversial veiws...we don't have to agree with them,but it makes
for
interesting reading.
>
> >and may scare off someone who genuinely has something of value to
> >say (but the rest of us may be extremely offended by it.)
>
>
> That would be very unfortunate if true, because that is not anyone's
> intention here.
>
I think your intentions are good,I just don't think you see the
consequences
of it.
>
> >Maybe I'm making some kind of sense... and this is nothing personal(you
> >have every
> >right to do this),I'm just stating my point of view.
>
> And your are very much entitled to do so.
>
Thank you,
Michelle
> ---
> --- MrMojoMan
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
MrMojoMan
michelle wrote in message <01be20cc$c9094e00$cd0edfd1@x>...
>
>
> No,just that when you argue with one of you now,you get the whole group
>jumping on you...it could be intimidating and I would like to see the other
>more controversial veiws...we don't have to agree with them,but it makes
>for
>interesting reading.
>
I have been involved in very heated arguments with many people on this list,
Padideh, and Arman are just a couple of them. So anyone who cares to look at
the facts realizes that there is not a gang mentality here. It is just a
bunch of subscribers who are sick and tired of profanity and cross and
double posting.
---
--- MrMojoMan
---
erooni
> No,just that when you argue with one of you now,you get the whole group
> jumping on you...it could be intimidating and I would like to see the other
> more controversial veiws...we don't have to agree with them,but it makes
> for
> interesting reading.
With respect, that is not quite true. If you just go a while back AFTER
the signinig of the boycott list, many argued on adding the name of
Pouyan Djahani to the list. Some pro and some against. And sometimes
the arguments got heated between the list's signatories. So your point
here is somewhat baseless. Also, it has cut down on the amount of
cross=posting, profanity that I see in this news group. It may yet lead
to people addressing each other with common courtesy.
Respectfully,
erooni
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
F Ashkey
>As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
>temper,
>but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
>it...)
>BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
It is more than that Michelle and you
know it too. :) I think you are too smart
and perceptive to have not noticed it, though
I think you are just playing around with a boy who
likes to feel like a man, toying with him as he plays
with his pussycat. :)
The boy is much more distrubed than
disturbing with an inferiority complex and
great sense of insecurites, complicated by
such phobic fear of his sextual inadequacy
that he foolishly believes that only an
inexperienced virgin will not be able to
detect them. Both you and I know
well that the boy, someday, with or without
a virgin, will be supprised with a shock
thearopy of his life. :) What tortures the
poor pussycat must have endured in his hands
bearing the burden of his anger and frustrations.
Each time that I read his post, I first think of the
poor pussycat before focusing on the horror
some unfortunate woman shall someday suffer
under his leash before breaking away and
discarding him.
BTW. I enjoy reading your posts and
one of my favorites was your humorous
description of a Texan Redneck and
their special attributes which are
universal no matter where they are from
and another about your inconsiderate neighbors. :)
Relative to posts from some other non-Iranians
such as Cyrus Rafaat, Mo, and the
neo-Nazi friends of Ali and Bighamian,
your posts are quite cool, refereshing,
and always welcomed.
Regards,
F Ashkey
hy...@my-dejanews.com
> ...... I was there,
> to extensively visit all segments of the socio-economic society, and
> evaluate it from a social scientist's perspective.
> .....
> Now, most of what has been written in this "article" by this so-called
> "news source" ("AFP",and by the way, what does that stand for and who
> owns this amateur-news source, and Mr."Ala" who are you???)
AFP is France's dominant news reporting service. From their site:
"Agence France-Presse is the world's oldest news agency. Created in 1835 by
Charles-Louis Havas, the father of international news gathering. It aquired
its current name in 1944.
The agency's fast reliable, objective and comprehensive news service is
available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year; it contains about one million
words, transmitted in six language, the equivalent of a 5,000 page book each
day."
And Mr. Alä is a popular SCI contributor and regular, who has penned many
interesting articles, and beyond that, it is none of your business. He has
the right to post, and is not subject to your whimsical inquisition.
> I'm just gonna say that Tehran and most of the cities have had both an
> oversupply due to overbuilding of apartments in the last five
> years--both for lower income areas as well as higher income areas, which
> has resulted in a glut in the market. "Apartment Agencies" are in
> everycorner....And, as far as wages are concerned, while they are
> somewhat stagnant and low; the cost of living is quite low due to an
> overproduction in food stuffs;
The Islamic Republic is the largest importer in the world of grain. It is
also importing 500,000 tons of rice from India this year. What you mean is
that food is cheap because of subsidized importation of food stuffs and not
due to overproduction of food stuffs. I know for a fact that meat is
expensive in Tehran, and the regime beneficiaries receive free coupons
towards its purchase.
> housing;
An average apartment in an average location in Tehran commands 400,000 tomans
per square meter. Thus a 120 m2 apartment (2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom) will cost
rougly $ 80,000 (at the rate of 1 US $ = 600 tomans). This is about the same
price for a similar type of unit in the States. But salaries in Iran are
much much less than in the States while cost of housing is the same. So
claiming that housing is cheap for the average Iranian is not factual. (The
unit costs 2.5 times the annual earning of a US wage earner, while the same
unit costs approx. 25 times the annual earning of an Iranian urban wage
earner.) Thus when you say that housing is cheap in Iran, you are stating
that from the viewpoint of a wealthy urban Iranian with a secure patronage
job and not from the standpoint of the average Iranian working class or wage
earner that makes $ 3,200 a year.
> cheap fuel;
The Islamic Republic is importing gasoling from the gulf states, and is paying
dear foreign exchange for that purchase. What you see as cheap fuel is due to
subsidization. Fuel is cheap not because Iranians can afford to pay the true
cost of oil, but because the regime must keep the price down through
subsidization or risk a rebellion. No wonder the regime has no capital left
for critical investments and infrastructure, and has to borrow and beg the
imperialist infidels for money to invest. Iran just received another $ 3
billion dollars loan from Japan, Italy, and Germany in order to service debt
that are in arrears.
> (This would be
> credited to former-President Rafsanjani's program which is starting to
> come to fruition, one would suspect;
Aha! Hear ye all SCI subscribers, as I have predicted (about 2 months ago),
that Mr. Moderate himself (Rafsanjani), better known as Mr. Opportunity or
Mr. Power Broker, will assume the Leadership in short shrift. As the head of
the Assembly of Experts and also of the Expediency Council, he will boot the
unqualified Khamenei, in order to deflect impending mass anger directed at
this bankrupt regime. We hear the bells already ringing and the spin doctors
already working on this program.
As per the regime's own statistics, the Iranian economy will contract at least
1% this year (other independent sources put this higher at 3 - 6%). Is this
the program of Rafsanjani which is now "starting to come to fruition"?
> as well as the highly
> specialization of the production and selling of home grown industries'
> products and so on by the private sector
"Private sector" !?!? 95% of production in Iran is concentrated in the hands
of the government or quasi-clerical organizations called Bonyäds. (Even the
Soviet Union could only muster 80% of national production in its grasp.) I
guess you consider Mr. Rafiqdoost (head of a dominant Bonyäd) as an example of
a private entrepreneur, in your definition of "private sector".
> --they've over produced and so
> the prices have dropped to match the social need, ECON 101).ETC.
When people lack the income to purchase goods, goods will remain on shelves
and prices will naturally drop. This is not over-production. Unemployment
is increasing and incomes are falling. This is called a recession due to
gross mismanagement, corruption, lack of productivity, population growth, and
also due to fall in oil prices - and which is now bordering on depression.
> In terms of the culture, certainly "dating" per se by the "American Sex,
> Drugs, and RockNRoll" version is not acceptable at all--it's an Islamic
> Society ...
Frankly I got bored reading the rest of your sexist and uninformed post,
trying to prop up Rafsanjani. You call yourself a "social scientist" (see
above). To be a scientist, you must be associated with an accredited
institution, and subscribe to the rigors of the scientific method and the
norms of objectivity. I suppose you mean this in the same way that the
totalitarian Islamic Republic calls itself a "democracy".
Sohayl Shambashi
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
hy...@my-dejanews.com
> Miss Padideh,
>
> Hello, once again. I really don't comprehend your intention in your
> response? But that's OK....Let me just ask you a simple, but personal
> question, if you aren't the type of person who gets offended easily;
> would you happen to be a virgin? And if not, then at what age, and by
> whom(nationality, race, religion, etc)took it from you(political
> correctness dictates that I say rather, "whom did you GIVE IT SO
> CHEAPLY TO"?).
Listen Raafat, a poster's sexuality is none of your goddamn business. Stop
your sexual harrassment, racist and sexist remarks, and your pesonal abuse of
Padideh. And you call yourself a "social scientist" in your other post? I
guess these must be the standards of science at the Islamic Republic's
Madresehs.
This abuse should be reported to erols.com.
Get lost. Shoo ....
Sohayl Shambashi
> .....
> PS-LAREDNEC, Thanks for the comments bro, I think the question isn't if
> Padideh is becoming "torshi", but is she's still "bahal" or not?:)
hy...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> > Cyrus Raafat wrote in message <3668DF...@erols.com>...
> >
> >
> >
> > Naff off, Cyrus. Naff off (into my kill file). Shoo ... Shoo ...
> >
> > You are as ridiculous (and pretentious) as your "due to extreme
> > lack of time, I'll briefly ... " (bore you to tears with a 10kb post).
> >
> > Padideh.(apologizes to the rest of SCI for momentarily losing her temper)
>
> on the group should be boycotted or the group moderated...
Dear Michelle xänüm [lady]:
There may be some incidence of bad blood in the past between the two that may
have spilled over here. Padideh does confess to her loss of temper, but you
have a point of her being rash here. But then this cannot be attributed to
the boycott list (or any sense of groupiness) that you lament, IMO.
> I've read many posts (and not just on this group) that really disturbed
> me and made me think that the world was going to heck in a handbasket.
> In fact when I bought my first computer 2.5 years ago and logged onto the
> internet
> I tried to avoid newsgroups because it disturbed me so much.
> However since then my eyes and mind have opened up to so many new things
> that I now think that the internet is the single most important discovery
> since the automobile was invented.
I agree with you. The Internet is more significant than radio, television,
telephone, newspapers, all put together - or will be more significant in the
near future.
The significance of newsgroups is revolutionary. I just wish that usenet is
upgraded in order to address the many, many, many defects and problems of
usenet, so that it can become mainstream. Communities will go on-line, via
newsgroups.
Discourse, campaigns, elections, polling, etc. shall and will be moved to
usenet (Internet). This will forever change how politics is conducted.
As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
> temper,
> but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
> it...)
> BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
>
> Michelle
I have always wondered that you as a non-Iranian, why you have chosen this
newsgroup as your home - and I welcome you to your choice and I wish, despite
your regrets and misgivings, that you feel solidly at home here in SCI. You
may have expressed your reasons in some other post, but I must have missed it.
You may have some relation to Iran. But if not, it would be very interesting
to know indeed.
Yours Curiously,
Sohayl
michelle
hy...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <74dmdu$41v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "michelle" <mich...@neto.com> wrote:
> >
> > Padideh <Padid...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> > <74bgf2$s...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>...
> > >
> > > Cyrus Raafat wrote in message <3668DF...@erols.com>...
> > >
> > > > .......
> > >
> > >
> > > Naff off, Cyrus. Naff off (into my kill file). Shoo ... Shoo ...
> > >
> > > You are as ridiculous (and pretentious) as your "due to extreme
> > > lack of time, I'll briefly ... " (bore you to tears with a 10kb
post).
> > >
> > > Padideh.(apologizes to the rest of SCI for momentarily losing her
temper)
> >
> > This is exactly what I meant by saying that I didn't think anyone
> > on the group should be boycotted or the group moderated...
>
>
> Dear Michelle xänüm [lady]:
>
> There may be some incidence of bad blood in the past between the two that
may
> have spilled over here. Padideh does confess to her loss of temper, but
you
> have a point of her being rash here. But then this cannot be attributed
to
> the boycott list (or any sense of groupiness) that you lament, IMO.
>
What are you talking about???Please rub the sleep out of your eyes
and read the post again.
> > I've read many posts (and not just on this group) that really disturbed
> > me and made me think that the world was going to heck in a handbasket.
> > In fact when I bought my first computer 2.5 years ago and logged onto
the
> > internet
> > I tried to avoid newsgroups because it disturbed me so much.
> > However since then my eyes and mind have opened up to so many new
things
> > that I now think that the internet is the single most important
discovery
> > since the automobile was invented.
>
> I agree with you. The Internet is more significant than radio,
television,
> telephone, newspapers, all put together - or will be more significant in
the
> near future.
>
> The significance of newsgroups is revolutionary. I just wish that usenet
is
> upgraded in order to address the many, many, many defects and problems of
> usenet, so that it can become mainstream. Communities will go on-line,
via
> newsgroups.
>
I think as far as the people that sign on to usenet,it is becoming more
and
more mainstream everyday.What you don't seem to recognize is that
just because everyone doesn't agree with the way we conduct ourselves
that they're totally in the wrong and should be policed.
> Discourse, campaigns, elections, polling, etc. shall and will be moved to
> usenet (Internet). This will forever change how politics is conducted.
>
> As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
> > temper,
> > but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
> > it...)
> > BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
> >
> > Michelle
>
> I have always wondered that you as a non-Iranian, why you have chosen
this
> newsgroup as your home - and I welcome you to your choice and I wish,
despite
> your regrets and misgivings, that you feel solidly at home here in SCI.
You
> may have expressed your reasons in some other post, but I must have
missed it.
> You may have some relation to Iran. But if not, it would be very
interesting
> to know indeed.
>
I've been asked this via private email,maybe a hundred times and have
answered
maybe 5 different ways.What it really comes down to,is that it's a free
place
and I think it's interesting and you are more than welcome to participate
in any of the other groups
I read (I love the recipe groups:)))
Michelle
michelle
F Ashkey <fas...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981206024751...@ng113.aol.com>...
> Michelle:
>
> >As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
> >temper,
> >but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
> >it...)
> >BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
>
> It is more than that Michelle and you
> know it too. :) I think you are too smart
> and perceptive to have not noticed it, though
> I think you are just playing around with a boy who
> likes to feel like a man, toying with him as he plays
> with his pussycat. :)
>
It's a hobby:)))
> The boy is much more distrubed than
> disturbing with an inferiority complex and
> great sense of insecurites, complicated by
> such phobic fear of his sextual inadequacy
> that he foolishly believes that only an
> inexperienced virgin will not be able to
> detect them. Both you and I know
> well that the boy, someday, with or without
> a virgin, will be supprised with a shock
> thearopy of his life. :) What tortures the
> poor pussycat must have endured in his hands
> bearing the burden of his anger and frustrations.
> Each time that I read his post, I first think of the
> poor pussycat before focusing on the horror
> some unfortunate woman shall someday suffer
> under his leash before breaking away and
> discarding him.
I think the reality in Cyrus's case will be that he'll fall in love and
marry
a woman who treats him like dirt (I've seen this happen before.)
>
> BTW. I enjoy reading your posts and
> one of my favorites was your humorous
> description of a Texan Redneck and
> their special attributes which are
> universal no matter where they are from
> and another about your inconsiderate neighbors. :)
You haven't seen anything yet.A couple of months ago I come home from work
and that stupid nieghbor lady comes out cussing and screaming at me that my
dog was in her yard and she was going to shoot it.(she was drunk BTW)
I start to go and get my dog and she ran into the house and got a pump up
shotgun and comes running out pumping up this thing and aims at my dog.
Well she misses the dog and I see the bullet hit the dirt next to my
foot.Well
I called the police etc...etc...
> Relative to posts from some other non-Iranians
> such as Cyrus Rafaat, Mo, and the
> neo-Nazi friends of Ali and Bighamian,
> your posts are quite cool, refereshing,
> and always welcomed.
>
Thank you,I enjoy your posts too.
Michelle
> Regards,
> F Ashkey
>
>
hy...@my-dejanews.com
"michelle" <mich...@neto.com> wrote:
> I'm not Iranian so none of this is really any of my business
> and maybe I don't belong here,however I'll try to give everyone
> my 2 cents worth.
You have as much right to soc.culture.iranian as me or other Iranians do.
This is equal opportunity, no-nationality, and all including yourself belong
here. I have enjoyed many of your posts, and which invariably come from your
heart (I had a good chuckle with your recent ta'ä'rof post). Naturally you
may feel left out because of not having shared our common culture, or have
personally experienced the tragic politics of Iran's recent history, but you
have certainly and successfully endeavored to bridge such gaps.
> The only thing that I've seen the boycott list do is get rid of Dick Aahan
> and maybe made Mehri joon start taking his prozac again.Other than that
> as an observer it reminds me of the cliches (social groups) we had in
> highschool.I always managed to stay neutural and tried not to join
> groups,but I always hated to see people left out ...everyone should have a
> right to be here and speak their mind in my oppinion.
Absolutely. Actually only one or two profane individuals continue their
abusive practice. This is a vast improvement since last summer where the
place had degenerated into a cesspool (its not a secret that I also
participated in the mud slinging.) Mehri Djoon is now reduced to some
incoherent ramblings, and in every other post of his, he laments his
isolation and lambasts those who ignore his rantings, in order to draw us
down into the mud again. His failure to de-civil SCI has caused him a lot of
agony.
But your analogy of the boycott to groupiness or cliques is incorrect.
Cliques formed for the purpose of social, economic, racial, etc. denigration
or isolation of an individual or a group of individuals, are reprehensible as
you say. But SCIers are not trying to gang up on a few hapless individuals.
Those on the boycott list have committed certain offenses, generally by being
abusive towards others. Although abusive personal attacks on newsgroups
falls under the rubric of free speech, the recipient of such abuse, namely
the victim, also has certain rights, do they not? If the victims of such
abuse get together and agree among themselves (the social contract) and urge
others, not to get into one-on-one fights with the abusers, and in order to
preserve the civil atmosphere, it may indeed appear to you that they are
shunning a certain individual. But they are shunning due to the abusive
behaviour, and not due to the individual's political, religuous, ideological,
etc. beliefs or association. The abusive individual continues to exercise
his right to speak his mind on the newsgroup, and nobody has advocated
expelling the abuser from the group.
So the analogy with cliques in high school, which is generally an exclusionary
practice based on coolness, wealth, looks, race, etc. is certainly inaccurate.
Shäd bäshid (be joyfull)
hy...@my-dejanews.com
I would like to review some of the points you have raised, as you have raised
some interesting ones and in multiple posts.
1- Is the right to free speech or right to participate on this newsgroup
being taken away by the boycotters?
Absolutely not. Boycotters just believe that abusive behaviour should not be
rewarded with a reply.
2- Are boycotters forming an exclusionary clique?
Absolutely not. Everybody is urged to join against abuse. This is like a
petition if you will. And if you read the list carefully, you will agree that
it is neutral, i.e. it does not single out the abuser for his beliefs, but
rather due to his long standing pattern of abusive practice.
3- Is there a club like atmosphere here on SCI which may somehow be construed
by others, especially newcomers, that they may be unwanted?
IMO there is a friendship atmosphere, which can be misconstrued as a club like
atmosphere. I personally am not much in favor of a club like atmosphere and
think that it should be taken to mailgroups (list servers) instead of
newsgroups. But I can empathize with you that to the extent that it may be
construed as a club, it will make others feel left out, unwanted, and reduce
their participation on SCI. Newcomers, especially newbies, are in a position
to be affected most, and this is rather sad.
I believe that banter on SCI should not be composed in a manner that a
newcomer or an infrequent subscriber would not be able to follow the thread.
If a reference is made to a past event or to a past thread, it should be
clear and complete with background information. Use of code words should be
avoided. Etc.
Further I believe that newcomers should be greeted well, especially by the
regulars, in order to dispell any possibility of a misperception about
clubbiness in the air. Regulars should be cognizant that by dominating
banter, it is natural for those at the margins to slip by the wayside.
4- Do the boycotters gang up on those that they disagree with?
Frankly, I have not seen any serious ganging up here on SCI. If anything,
sometimes I wish I would receive more support from my friends when I am in
the throes of a hairy debate. The fact is that those who support the Islamic
Republic are an absolute minority on SCI, and those who prefer to see state
and religion separated are an absolute majority. Therefore, many a times,
the debate may take a lopsided appearance, but that is strictly due to the
numbers. The only exception may be when an individual engages in abuse
(personal attacks, defamation, etc.) against another subscriber, in which
case I believe it is our ethical duty to set the record straight for the
abuser.
5- Are the boycotters or regulars supremacist?
I don't believe so. They naturally tend to be more vocal and profuse. As
you know, on newsgroups, bandwidth is almost unlimited. It is not like a
public meeting where everybody should get a certain amount of time to speak,
lest someone else not get his turn. A regular is generally more expressive
and evocative, this usually coming by way of practice and spending time
composing and refining the composition. Some are inherently more talented in
this respect. Again, if this was a meeting, and a few attempted to dominate
the debate through oratory skills, etc. you would make a good point. The
beauty of newsgroups is that it makes the playing field more level, and
extremely democratic. Anybody can say their word, and it is the meaning that
will come through and win the day, unlike in the traditional forums. That is
why newsgroups are such a revolutionary instrument.
If one has an open mind, having the courage to be wrong, to develop through
discourse, and have a positive and constructive attitude, the confidence
gained thus will do for any adverse sense, real or fictitious, of supremacy.
I believe that except for a few sad and well known examples, most SCIers are
unwilling to extend the competitive, brutal, and downright nasty real world of
everyday rat race and survival to this realm, and they do make a conscious
effort to project a positive mentality. It is in this vein that I disagree
with the supremacist criticism.
F Ashkey
>Subject: Re: Marriage, dating, and economics in Iran.
>From: hy...@my-dejanews.com
>Date: Sun, Dec 6, 1998 04:48 EST
>Message-id: <74djtq$2ao$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Excellent response to one who is not worthy
of a response. Wait for this moron now to
come back and ask whether you are a virgin. :)
He is Maleki's colone with his stupid qualifying
question intended to provoke the SCI readers
and harass the female participants.
BTW. I think your figure of $3200 for an
average Iranian wage earner is quite high.
At $1.00 = 700 Toman that would translate
into 2.24 million Toman per year or 186.7
thousand Toman per month. No _average
working class wage-earner has that kind
of income even in Tehran. As you know
the government figures cannot be _trusted
_at _all and the international agencies stopped
listing national income figures for Iran some
time ago and a few listed figures are stricltly
based on government's own estimates.
My estimates of the per capita income in
Iran is around $1800 or 1.26 million Toman
which is 25% below the _approximate per
capita income of $2400 in 1979. I estimate
the _average _workers' earnings in a city of
Tehran at _approximately 45,000 Toman per
month per job, though many work two jobs
and could earn as high as 70,000 to 90,000
Toman's per month. The average income
for government employees in Tehran would
not exceed 100 to 120 Thousand Tomans and
that of _average government retiree of _around
80,000 Tomans. These are _very _rough and
_unscientific _estimates based on the data I
collected last year.
Although the average earnings and per capita
income are not a very useful indicators of the
standards of living without looking at the distribution
of income and other socio-economic indicators,
I actutally believe that because of the concentration
of wealth and maldistribution of income, these figures
may even overstate the earnings of a significant
segment of the population, particularly the urban
poor and rural Iran, who fall below the average
earnings or per capita income.
Regards,
F Ashkey
hy...@my-dejanews.com
> What you don't seem to recognize is that
> just because everyone doesn't agree with the way we conduct ourselves
> that they're totally in the wrong and should be policed.
Michelle Jän, what you say is rather unfair. Show me one good example of what
you say. You are accusing everybody (on the boycott list) of censorship, I
resent that.
Let me give you an example. If I were in a gathering, and everytime I had
said something, one certain person ridiculed me, called me names, hurled
profanities at me, insulted me personally, harassed me, questioned my
motivations, defamed my character, uttered death threats at me, ..... how am
I supposed to behave? Please answer directly.
Now suppose this person commits the above abuses to the majority of
participants in the gathering, what are they supposed to do? Degenerate the
meeting into a free for all mud fest? Or can they choose to ignore this
abusive person, and get on with their business?
You are quick to accuse others of censorship and policing, but you fail to
explain why if I shun someone I consider abusive, that I am guilty of
censorship or policing. After all, do I not have the freedom to choose who I
associate with?
Sohayl
P.S. I would appreciate if you would answer these questions. It would be more
helpful than repeating your charges, without explaining the basis of your
charges.
F Ashkey
>Date: Sun, Dec 6, 1998 06:36 EST
>Message-id: <01be210c$640313c0$1e0edfd1@x>
>
>
>
>F Ashkey <fas...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19981206024751...@ng113.aol.com>...
>> Michelle:
>>
>> >As for Cyrus...it's ok to lose your
>> >temper,
>> >but he knows that what he's saying is disturbing you(that's why he said
>> >it...)
>> >BTW...was it only a 10kb post???:)))
>>
>> It is more than that Michelle and you
>> know it too. :) I think you are too smart
>> and perceptive to have not noticed it, though
>> I think you are just playing around with a boy who
>> likes to feel like a man, toying with him as he plays
>> with his pussycat. :)
>>
> It's a hobby:)))
>
I have noticed it before. With this poster,
Mahan and others..... :)
>
>
>> The boy is much more distrubed than
>> disturbing with an inferiority complex and
>> great sense of insecurites, complicated by
>> such phobic fear of his sextual inadequacy
>> that he foolishly believes that only an
>> inexperienced virgin will not be able to
>> detect them. Both you and I know
>> well that the boy, someday, with or without
>> a virgin, will be supprised with a shock
>> thearopy of his life. :) What tortures the
>> poor pussycat must have endured in his hands
>> bearing the burden of his anger and frustrations.
>> Each time that I read his post, I first think of the
>> poor pussycat before focusing on the horror
>> some unfortunate woman shall someday suffer
>> under his leash before breaking away and
>> discarding him.
>
>I think the reality in Cyrus's case will be that he'll fall in love and
>marry
>a woman who treats him like dirt (I've seen this happen before.)
>
I agree. But I think this has already happened
perhaps more than once and hence his fears.
>>
>> BTW. I enjoy reading your posts and
>> one of my favorites was your humorous
>> description of a Texan Redneck and
>> their special attributes which are
>> universal no matter where they are from
>> and another about your inconsiderate neighbors. :)
>
> You haven't seen anything yet.A couple of months ago I come home from work
>and that stupid nieghbor lady comes out cussing and screaming at me that my
>dog was in her yard and she was going to shoot it.(she was drunk BTW)
>I start to go and get my dog and she ran into the house and got a pump up
>shotgun and comes running out pumping up this thing and aims at my dog.
>Well she misses the dog and I see the bullet hit the dirt next to my
>foot.Well
>I called the police etc...etc...
>
>
She sounds quite imbalanced,
like Maleki on SCI, except he is so
clumsy he would have shot his own foot. :)
With a neighbor like that I can see why
you spend less time in the yard and more
behind the computer.:):) No weekend
Texan Barbercue? I noticed you had said
you collect recipes. Anything special?
Do you like Persian dishes?
Cyrus Raafat
Attention: Mr.F. Ashkey & Mr.Shohayl Shambashi
Hello. Let me just say that first of all, I'd like to apologise for any
gross misspellings or incorrectness in my original responses, but that
was only because of the fact that I was/am very tired and responding
very late at night while I have time to skim through this
newsgroup...which seems to have become too cluttered with cross-posting
garbage to be frank!
Now, in regards to the other comments by Miss Michelle, and this
"Ms.Padideh" character, I'd just like to say that I still can't seem to
figure out why they were originally offended, and by what? By the fact
that I mentioned that a certain percent of the female population in Iran
happen to be chaste and virtuous? Is that something to be condemned? Is
immoral vice to be respected in an anchient civilization and highly
developed culture such as Iran, such as it is in the high-tech,
media-dominated, popculture of contemporary United States?? I don't
agree with that illogic and irrationalism.
Now, let me tell you that STATISTICS can be manipulated to bringforth
any point and since you have decided to use them, then I have no choice
except to go to the USNews World Report Book of Facts, 1999; and the
Weissman's Report regarding everthing that I have commented on. And,
also mention that I spoke personally and at length with one of the
Directors of National Family Planning Institute of Iran....
Let me point out to you(actually any statistician or economics
professor) can inform you that data such as "per capita income" can be
absolutely MISLEADING, because of the fact that you are ignoring the
issue of "standard of living". The percentage of those people who are
the top income earners can disproportionately effect the end result of
the bottom earners, for example. Inflation of that number, as well as
ownership of homes, spending power, and inflation. So, in summation,
while a Mexican maybe earning an average of $6,000 per year...and an
Iranian supposedly $4,000-$5,000 per capita annually, the standard of
living in the two countries is incompatable: the Iranian is more than
likely an owner of his home; has readily available transportation.
Secondly, what percentage of the population is middle class? The answer
is that 3% of Mexico's top earners own 90% or more of the wealth(land,
labor, capital, ie the means of production) and the middle class in that
country maybe no more than 25%, so actually inflating the value of the
other 72% actually earning under that amount....
Now, the rest of your arguements are simply
anti-Iran/Iranian(anti-government rhetoric) animosity, which is
hyperbole and know-nothing nonsense that is an attempt at trying to
dismiss the personal-experience that one has in a childishly dismissive
manner!
And, also, negative and pessimistic or cynical people such as the two of
you will always try to simply look at the NEGATIVE and bad side to
everything and there is no point in even trying to debate with losers
like yourselves, because you're innately incapable of seeing beyond your
petty minded horse-shields. So if I tell you something like, "I did not
see any beggars in any part of Tehran for a month" that is not to negate
the possibility of there being none, nor is it subjective, because it is
an objective observation. Now, if I were to say that there is an active
"private sector" I am not ignoring the factories, hotels, properties,
and great influence that say the various Bonyads may have, but you are
mistaken to think that they are the sole controller or the dominator.
Let me just say that I saw factories of both private-ownership and
Bonyad doing the same things and even working in cooperation, and guess
what?...they make money and are operated efficiently, in a modern manner
like any other. And to ignore the fact that MOST, if not ALL
retail-stores and shopping centers in Iran are wholly privately owned,
generally by the managers is completely crazy! You are denying the fact
that Iranians are also some of the most smartest, creative, and clever
people in the world and have a culture that has all the right mix to
encourage success in business, art, education, and so on.
I really don't want to waste my time with you because its like the
argument that these idiotic lesbian-feminazis try to shove down the
throats of the average Americans about "sexual harrassment" which is
nothing more than political correctness garbage, while then defending
"pornography" as "liberation" of "women"??Yeah right....
Now, while capital punishment maybe on the books in the Philippines for
rape, how many times has anyone been hung for it???Yet I heard a stat
that said that tens of thousands of rapes occur in Philippines every
year....
The average Japanese has a per capita of $21,000, right, but the reality
is that in the end I'd rather make $7,000 in Iran per year, because my
cost of living is lower and my savings rate would be higher!
Now a few comments:
F Ashkey wrote:
> owns this amateur-news source, and Mr."Ala" who are you???)
> >
> >AFP is France's dominant news reporting service. From their site:
> >
> >"Agence France-Presse is the world's oldest news agency. Created in 1835 by
> >Charles-Louis Havas, the father of international news gathering. It aquired
> >its current name in 1944.
> >
> >The agency's fast reliable, objective and comprehensive news service is
> >available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year; it contains about one million
> >words, transmitted in six language, the equivalent of a 5,000 page book each
> >day."
> >
> >And Mr. Alä is a popular SCI contributor and regular, who has penned many
> >interesting articles, and beyond that, it is none of your business. He has
> >the right to post, and is not subject to your whimsical inquisition.
OK, Thanks for the information.
> >
> >The Islamic Republic is the largest importer in the world of grain. It is
> >also importing 500,000 tons of rice from India this year. What you mean is
> >that food is cheap because of subsidized importation of food stuffs and not
> >due to overproduction of food stuffs. I know for a fact that meat is
> >expensive in Tehran, and the regime beneficiaries receive free coupons
> >towards its purchase.
The issue is is there a SURPLUS of imports as opposed to imports? NO.
The issue also is that Iran is importing, for example, soybeans from
Uzbekistan, processing it into cooking oil and re-exporting it to them,
this isn't "charity work"; this is called the private-sector making
DOLLARS(They do the same with cottonsead, salt,ETC)....
The fact is that Iran imports Daewoo cars from Iran, but also OWNS via
Khodro Corp., a substantial share of the company(and does the same with
Renault, Hyundai, Peugeut). The Japanese and Germans wont or don't allow
the Iranians to do that...and that's why they aren't allowed to sell in
Iran, unless they pay outrageous prices....(And 50% of all components of
those cars MUST be manufactured INSIDE Iran).
I think the Iranians have figured out to deal with these multinational
Sons-of-Bitches
on their own terms and are getting some success...His Imperial Majesty
Reza Shah Pahlavi the Great's ideas have just been redone, thanks to
Mr.Pres.HjIsl.Rafsanjani.
> >
> >An average apartment in an average location in Tehran commands 400,000 tomans
> >per square meter. Thus a 120 m2 apartment (2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom) will cost
> >rougly $ 80,000 (at the rate of 1 US $ = 600 tomans). This is about the same
> >price for a similar type of unit in the States. But salaries in Iran are
> >much much less than in the States while cost of housing is the same. So
> >claiming that housing is cheap for the average Iranian is not factual.
This is true, but in which neighborhood? In North Tehran, yes, and so
what? Most of the people who can afford that simply can. I know of a new
house in Vanak area that is going for $600,000!!! And do you know why?
Because some people CAN AFFORD IT!
But the reality in south Tehran, the average 2bedroom apartments with
bath(which I saw for my own eyes) went for roughly $16,000. And was told
by the builder that if someone paid in CASH with DOLLARS he'd discount
it $2,000! Most of the units were vacant because of overbuilding.
Now in say Karaj, a similar apartment could go for $12-10,000(and most
of the rest of the country is even cheaper!) Statistic for you, 80% of
all Iranians are home owners.
Those twobedroom apartments blocks called Ecbatana built during the
Shah's era, near the Africa Frwy, go for exactly $350 for rent...To buy,
I don't know.
Remember most Iranians are two-wage earners so if the percapita income
is even $4,000, then $8,000 per houshold. But, the reality is also that
money doesn't grow on trees, but due to the inheritance laws being
Islamic there is a constant redistribution of the high ended wealthy.
> (The
> >unit costs 2.5 times the annual earning of a US wage earner, while the same
> >unit costs approx. 25 times the annual earning of an Iranian urban wage
> >earner.) Thus when you say that housing is cheap in Iran, you are stating
> >that from the viewpoint of a wealthy urban Iranian with a secure patronage
> >job and not from the standpoint of the average Iranian working class or wage
> >earner that makes $ 3,200 a year.
You are wrong again, Iranians live--even the extremely wealthy--in close
quarters and often one family may occupy an entire apartment block, so
birth rates with the new generation will go to replacement level and
this huge generation will simply go through the "baby boom" cycle while
industrialization....and most of those under 25 are those poor outside
of Tehran anyhow, where land is expansive and cheap.
> >
> >The Islamic Republic is importing gasoling from the gulf states, and is
> >paying
> >dear foreign exchange for that purchase. What you see as cheap fuel is due
> >to
> >subsidization.
THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE! SHOW SOME EVIDENCE! Iran is refining more oil
than they can get rid of and there is a glut right now!!! What are you
talking about! There were NIOC Executives I talked to who told me this,
that is why 1-litre costs about 20Cents!!!
Anyhow, Tehran's Metro is almost finished and when it does it will
resolve even that "problem" of traffic(which is better than Mexico City
by 20 times!!)....
Fuel is cheap not because Iranians can afford to pay the true
> >cost of oil, but because the regime must keep the price down through
> >subsidization or risk a rebellion. No wonder the regime has no capital left
> >for critical investments and infrastructure, and has to borrow and beg the
> >imperialist infidels for money to invest. Iran just received another $ 3
> >billion dollars loan from Japan, Italy, and Germany in order to service debt
> >that are in arrears.
Interesting analysis....Please go to Iran, yourself, and then talk.
> >Aha! Hear ye all SCI subscribers, as I have predicted (about 2 months ago),
> >that Mr. Moderate himself (Rafsanjani), better known as Mr. Opportunity or
> >Mr. Power Broker, will assume the Leadership in short shrift. As the head of
> >the Assembly of Experts and also of the Expediency Council, he will boot the
> >unqualified Khamenei, in order to deflect impending mass anger directed at
> >this bankrupt regime. We hear the bells already ringing and the spin doctors
> >already working on this program.
Maybe you are right, but most likely you are WRONG.
Go to Iran and extensively travel, then comment.
> >
> >As per the regime's own statistics, the Iranian economy will contract at
> >least
> >1% this year (other independent sources put this higher at 3 - 6%). Is this
> >the program of Rafsanjani which is now "starting to come to fruition"?
You know what? I think the Iranian government seems to exaggerate the
problem to then let people just say, "wow, life is good for me, glad I'm
not suffering..."
Reverse psychology...who knows?
>
> >"Private sector" !?!? 95% of production in Iran is concentrated in the hands
> >of the government or quasi-clerical organizations called Bonyäds. (Even the
> >Soviet Union could only muster 80% of national production in its grasp.) I
> >guess you consider Mr. Rafiqdoost (head of a dominant Bonyäd) as an example
> >of
> >a private entrepreneur, in your definition of "private sector".
This was not my observation....Where do you get that "statistic"?
> >
> >When people lack the income to purchase goods, goods will remain on shelves
> >and prices will naturally drop. This is not over-production. Unemployment
> >is increasing and incomes are falling. This is called a recession due
> to
> >gross mismanagement, corruption, lack of productivity, population growth, and
> >also due to fall in oil prices - and which is now bordering on depression.
Underemployment maybe, but not unemployment....In Mexico "unemployment"
means you get kicked out of your house and your children start
begging;in Russia means play chess all day....And in Iran?
> >
> >Frankly I got bored reading the rest of your sexist and uninformed post,
> >trying to prop up Rafsanjani. You call yourself a "social scientist" (see
> >above). To be a scientist, you must be associated with an accredited
> >institution, and subscribe to the rigors of the scientific method and the
> >norms of objectivity. I suppose you mean this in the same way that the
> >totalitarian Islamic Republic calls itself a "democracy".
> >
> >Sohayl Shambashi
> >
> >
You see you can not DEBATE like an objective person, if someone says
something against your prejudiced viewpoint, then you label him and call
him a "this or that" a "pro this or that"...You are a pathetic person
and that is why you will never get out of the tunnel, OK? I was even
assumed to be a "taghooti" perhaps by some people there, but that does
not matter, what matters is the truth. And if you can't handle it then
just don't; just keep your fat mouth shut!
> Excellent response to one who is not worthy
> of a response. Wait for this moron now to
> come back and ask whether you are a virgin. :)
> He is Maleki's colone with his stupid qualifying
> question intended to provoke the SCI readers
> and harass the female participants.
The virginity issue is an issue, and if you want to deny it then you are
living in fantasy land. Sorry, you seem to be very alienated from your
culture. Is your daughter going to be promiscuous??
>
> BTW. I think your figure of $3200 for an
> average Iranian wage earner is quite high.
Really? Please check the Weissman's Report, UN, etc.
Quality of life, not income is the real issue anyhow
(speculative rubbish deleted)
Regards,
> F Ashkey
With Regards,
Cyrus
Kamran
>to extensively visit all segments of the socio-economic society, and
>evaluate it from a social scientist's perspective.
Thank you for your very thorough socio-economic analysis on Iran.
It was truly an excellent work from social scientist perspective.
I should think you better join Farzin and Maleki and apply for
a place in department of social science at Oxford.
No wonder the economy is in such a shamble with minds like
these living abroad.
F Ashkey
Cyrus Raafat:
You have confused my post with Hyle
though you fail to provide a convincing
response to comments by either one of us.
For now, I shall only address those comments
which relate to my post.
>Now, let me tell you that STATISTICS can be manipulated to bringforth
>any point and since you have decided to use them, then I have no choice
>except to go to the USNews World Report Book of Facts, 1999; and the
>Weissman's Report regarding everthing that I have commented on.
Indeed Statistics can be manipulated to
provide a distorted picture, but only for
those who cannot understand it, are
not in touch with the realities, and cannot
observe and think for themselves and
scratch beyond the surface. The Shah
also manipulated Statistics with direct
orders to Plan Organization to even
change and doctor the numbers so they
would not contradict what he may have
said at a speech or in an interview. But
he fooled no one, not for long at least.
You claim to be using statistical data ,
but I see none on your posts here. Give
your data and cite your sources. You
have none. None that can prove your
shallow contentions. Prove me wrong. :)
>Let me point out to you(actually any statistician or economics
>professor) can inform you that data such as "per capita income" can be
>absolutely MISLEADING, because of the fact that you are ignoring the
>issue of "standard of living". The percentage of those people who are
>the top income earners can disproportionately effect the end result of
>the bottom earners
I have already stated this fact and I am not
an economist. Per capita income by itself
may distort the standards of living and for this
reason you need information about the
distribution of income and other socio-economic
indicators. But the distribution of income is
established by the data which gives us what
is known as the _gini _coefficient and is also
used to establish a Lorenz Curve. There
is no such information for Iran. The latest
data dating back to 1979, actually indicated
maldistribution of income which has further
deteriorated with the concentration of wealth
in the hands of fewer people and the destruction
of the middle class as anyone with a rudimentary
knowledge of economics and Iranian society
would readily admit. Your contention about
the middle class having grown in Iran shows
how much you know about Iran and the
subject of economics.
Hence, if there is any
_speculative argument to be made about the
per capita income distortion it should be consider
as an overestimed figure representing the
well being of an average Iranian rather than
being an underestimation. If you disagree
with me support you argument with actual
data about the distribution of income in Iran.
You can't. :)
>The answer
>is that 3% of Mexico's top earners own 90% or more of the >wealth(land,
>labor, capital, ie the means of production)
This point is irrelevant to the topic at hand
but it is nevertheless a lie. Support it with
statistical evidence and while at it prove that
the distribution of income in Iran is better
than in Mexico by citing actual statistical
data on Iran. You can't. :)
>> Excellent response to one who is not worthy
>> of a response. Wait for this moron now to
>> come back and ask whether you are a virgin. :)
>> He is Maleki's colone with his stupid qualifying
>> question intended to provoke the SCI readers
>> and harass the female participants.
>
>The virginity issue is an issue, and if you want to deny it then you are
>living in fantasy land. Sorry, you seem to be very alienated from your
>culture. Is your daughter going to be promiscuous??
>
>
Virginity is your obssession. You are the person
who about a year ago was recommending that
all unmarried Iranian women should be given
regular viriginity tests which should be renewed
like a driver's liscence in order to protect the
men. What you forgot is to mention that
by the same token men like yourself must be
given regular _sanity _test in order to protect
the public. You won't pass. :)
Moreover, I am very much in tune with
my culture and that is why I would not allow
you to distort or insult it. For one who by
his own addmission is half Iranian, born
and raised in the US, you show a lot
of sincerity telling other Iranians about how
alienated they are from their culture.
Boro Bacheh Gherti. :)
>>
>> BTW. I think your figure of $3200 for an
>> average Iranian wage earner is quite high.
>
>
>Really? Please check the Weissman's Report, UN, etc.
>Quality of life, not income is the real issue anyhow
>
>
>
I have stated my case. It is up to you to
support your arguments with data. Why
don't you give us the figures on Per capita
income and quality of life index.
>(speculative rubbish deleted)
Why delet it? I have already said that
those figures are rough estimates, but
estimates are all we can go by in lieu of
lack of data and my estimates are something
that many Iranians can _roughly relate to and
verify. So why don't respond to them?.
Give us the figures for the monthly income of
an average worker in Tehran. Didn't you interview
a few ministers of the IRI? If you know about
Iran and the Iranian economy, _contest my
figures with your figures. You can't .:)
I repost it for you below:
--------------------
BTW. I think your figure of $3200 for an
average Iranian wage earner is quite high.
-------------------------------
F Ashkey
michelle
hy...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <74fm6a$m3k$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "michelle" <mich...@neto.com> wrote:
>
> > What you don't seem to recognize is that
> > just because everyone doesn't agree with the way we conduct ourselves
> > that they're totally in the wrong and should be policed.
>
> Michelle Jän, what you say is rather unfair. Show me one good example of
what
> you say. You are accusing everybody (on the boycott list) of censorship,
I
> resent that.
>
Ah,but is that really what I said?
> Let me give you an example. If I were in a gathering, and everytime I
had
> said something, one certain person ridiculed me, called me names, hurled
> profanities at me, insulted me personally, harassed me, questioned my
> motivations, defamed my character, uttered death threats at me, ..... how
am
> I supposed to behave? Please answer directly.
>
According to your maturity level,the situation could be handled more than
one way.
I personally would choose to tell the person directly that I have no
intention
of running away and that my self worth was intact and I don't care if he
tells
the whole world (well not in such a corny way,but you get the point.)
> Now suppose this person commits the above abuses to the majority of
> participants in the gathering, what are they supposed to do? Degenerate
the
> meeting into a free for all mud fest? Or can they choose to ignore this
> abusive person, and get on with their business?
>
It's really hard to compare words on a computer to a real life
situation...
we are all pretty much anonomous here and it makes it a whole lot easier
to express ourselves and speak our minds.Maybe we should try comparing it
to a trip to the art museum.You have your Picassos(abstract),renissance
(Leonardo,etc...)
Monet...and then you have to look at this Chinese ladies exhibit
portraiting the
Statue of Liberty impaled on the cross that Jesus was on and various
dismembered
bodies of things like fetuses etc...(yuck) Please if you would tell me why
such art should
be allowed in the same house as the great master painters?(you're being
graded on this:)))
> You are quick to accuse others of censorship and policing, but you fail
to
> explain why if I shun someone I consider abusive, that I am guilty of
> censorship or policing. After all, do I not have the freedom to choose
who I
> associate with?
>
You have every right to police what goes into your eyes and ears.My problem
is with telling others that these people should be avoided.After all...
lets say Pres.Khatami suddenly announces that all of the Iranians
in other countries should come back home(no strings attached)...
do you think you are going to go back to a country of people who
think exactly as you?I think it's best to keep the lines of comunication
open.
Sohayl
>
> P.S. I would appreciate if you would answer these questions. It would be
more
> helpful than repeating your charges, without explaining the basis of your
> charges.
I hope I aswered your questions to your satisfaction.
Michelle
CRnguyen
to your 'paintings in the art museum'
scenario objectively:
I DO respect others' freedoms of exspression,
which includes any and all means and of
course the artistic expressions too. Whay I don't respect AND do confront is
that when
the artist (who painted those dismembered
fetal/human parts) comes into the museum AND starts abusing other people and
trashes
other paintings and even if could burn the
place down, so to REPELL the museum
goers so they will never come back,
meaning depriving everybody from arts.
Such person of course be arrested in real
life, and perhaps comitted.
Regards,
P
michelle
CRnguyen <crng...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981207213850...@ng154.aol.com>...
> Dear Michelle, If I may, I like to respond
> to your 'paintings in the art museum'
> scenario objectively:
> I DO respect others' freedoms of exspression,
> which includes any and all means and of
> course the artistic expressions too. Whay I don't respect AND do confront
is
> that when
> the artist (who painted those dismembered
> fetal/human parts) comes into the museum AND starts abusing other people
and
> trashes
> other paintings and even if could burn the
> place down, so to REPELL the museum
> goers so they will never come back,
> meaning depriving everybody from arts.
But on the usenet,how is a post from an obnoxious person
any different than that womans artwork???Neither can do anything more
than offend...
Michelle
michelle
F Ashkey <fas...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981207001212...@ng-fu1.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Marriage, dating, and economics in Iran.
> >From: "michelle" <mich...@neto.com>
> >Date: Sun, Dec 6, 1998 06:36 EST
> >Message-id: <01be210c$640313c0$1e0edfd1@x>
> >
> >
>
> She sounds quite imbalanced,
> like Maleki on SCI, except he is so
> clumsy he would have shot his own foot. :)
> With a neighbor like that I can see why
> you spend less time in the yard and more
> behind the computer.:):) No weekend
> Texan Barbercue? I noticed you had said
> you collect recipes. Anything special?
> Do you like Persian dishes?
>
I've been to a BBQ or two in my life...although there's a BBQ shack on
every corner
around here...In the last year or so,I've tried quite a few Persian
dishes...
have been to a couple of Iranian resturants (one good,one bad),tried
homemade,
and even cooked a little myself (I thought it turned out alright...thank
you Farzin...)
I'm mostly interested in Southern downhome type cooking...like meatloaf,
mashed potatoes,chocolate pie...that kind of stuff.
Take care,
Michelle
hy...@my-dejanews.com
> Excellent response to one who is not worthy
> of a response. Wait for this moron now to
> come back and ask whether you are a virgin. :)
> He is Maleki's colone with his stupid qualifying
> question intended to provoke the SCI readers
> and harass the female participants.
I appreciate your comment, and I must add, it means a lot to me.
And BTW, I have not forgotten your reply to an earlier post of mine regarding
ownership, control, and gain of capital in advanced economies, and the role of
free markets in Iran. These are the _most critical_ questions of our times,
and I have taken a rain check on that thread and intend to revisit it with you
at a later, but better time.
> BTW. I think your figure of $3200 for an
> average Iranian wage earner is quite high.
> At $1.00 = 700 Toman that would translate
> into 2.24 million Toman per year or 186.7
> thousand Toman per month. No _average
> working class wage-earner has that kind
> of income even in Tehran. As you know
> the government figures cannot be _trusted
> _at _all and the international agencies stopped
> listing national income figures for Iran some
> time ago and a few listed figures are stricltly
> based on government's own estimates.
Iran's GDP per capita is actually approx. $940 per year (see below), and
dropping. What I meant by $3,200 (sorry for the confusion) is the income of a
middle class urban family (e.g. the husband has 2 jobs, and the wife also
works). This would be the kind of buyer who would want to buy an "upscale"
$80,000 apartment. Wages in rural areas and for the urban poor is well below
the average figures.
> My estimates of the per capita income in
> Iran is around $1800 or 1.26 million Toman
> which is 25% below the _approximate per
> capita income of $2400 in 1979. I estimate
> the _average _workers' earnings in a city of
> Tehran at _approximately 45,000 Toman per
> month per job, though many work two jobs
> and could earn as high as 70,000 to 90,000
> Toman's per month. The average income
> for government employees in Tehran would
> not exceed 100 to 120 Thousand Tomans and
> that of _average government retiree of _around
> 80,000 Tomans. These are _very _rough and
> _unscientific _estimates based on the data I
> collected last year.
Look at this link by the Economist Intelligence Unit:
http://x11.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=391987671.1&CONTEXT=913114036.1817837619&hi
tnum=2
Specifically it says:
Economic indicators 1995(a) 1996(b) 1997
GDP at market prices IR bn 184.2 245.9 305.3
GDP $ bn 61.4 82.0 101.8
If you take the GDP in rials 305.3 bn and divide it by the market rate
of 5,000 rials to a dollar prevalent in 1997, you get US$ 61 billion. At a
population of 65 million, that translates to $ 938 GDP per capita. If GDP
drops by 3% in 1998, the GDP will be $ 910.
It is indeed hard to come by reliable sources of economic statistic for Iran.
The government invariably uses the rate of 1,750 rials/dollar when issuing
dollar reports, thus inflating the figures without saying what rate is used,
and confusing the hell out of everybody. In the EIU report above, EIU has
used another official rate of 3,000 rials/dollar.
Look at the EIU figure from 1995 to 1996. GDP grew by 34%, an impossibility.
This is due to inflation (synonymous to fall of the exchange rate). The funny
thing is that the government purposefully does not issue stats in real rial
terms, and EIU is oblivious to this fact.
> Although the average earnings and per capita
> income are not a very useful indicators of the
> standards of living without looking at the distribution
> of income and other socio-economic indicators,
> I actutally believe that because of the concentration
> of wealth and maldistribution of income, these figures
> may even overstate the earnings of a significant
> segment of the population, particularly the urban
> poor and rural Iran, who fall below the average
> earnings or per capita income.
Absolutely. The rural peasants and the urban poor, not to mention destitutes
probably earn not more than $400 a year per capita. A mitigating factor is
government subsidies (welfare) and food distribution, which is probably
organized by the mosques while funded from government money, and which keeps
their head afloat. God forbid if Iran is faced with a mass hunger situation.
I guess it is the Afghan refugees which are in the most serious danger of
malnurishment.
A classic objection when comparing GDP figures to world standards is that it
does not take into consideration the significantly lower cost of living in
these countries. This comment is valid if one considers a nation as an
insular community, which it is not. In addition certain international
consumer commodities such as cars, oil, imported food, and any exportable
item, must necessarily be of same price inside the country as outside the
country. And I wonder when the 'cost of living' people say that a peasant is
relatively well off, do they allow him of having a car or a tractor for
example? At those low income levels, few peasants can afford such necessary
amenities.
> Regards,
> F Ashkey
Hamçenin
Sohayl
Scott Birch
Kamran wrote in message <366B95...@ifi.uio.no>...
Poor Cyrus: he tries to compensate for a deficit in synapses with
a surplus of syllables.
Cyrus, if you're reading this, the Quran tells the faithful to let pure
men marry pure women and impure men marry impure women. I
can agree with this one. You only deserve a virgin bride if you are
a virgin yourself. You have no right to make a moral demand of
a woman that she cannot make of you.
Scott.
mon...@erols.com
Dear Scott,
Let me briefly state that the Quranic Verse you are refering to does not have
any intent whatsoever in making reference to the "virginity" of a girl or the
"sexual experience" of the man(men don't have virginity)for your information.
That particular verse is refering to the "piety" level of the particular
person in regard to their following Islam as Muslims....Purity of their
devotion to being Muslims/to Islam.
Another point is that the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and all of the Imams(ra) and
so on....married many women, yet all of them made the mention(read the hadith
regarding virgin girls as the preference for all Muslims--makes no mention of
Muslimah)that one must always look for the most pious and young girls
possible to acquire; and only should a "matron" be a second choice.
The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) married the widowed-Khadijah first to let people
know that it was OK to do so, then married the chaste younglady Aishah.
So, it is not your concern about my personal dealings when ever I meet a nice
girl of interest for fiancee, I tell them the complete honest truth about
everything,because I really don't care(and what is it of your concern anyhow?)
The moral demand issue is that everygirl has a demand on her husband which is
different than that of the demands on her....That is what a prenuptial
agreement is all about! That is Islamic law....
Scott are you Muslim by the way? 'Cause if you are, you sound like some
seriously misquided one(at least interms of the interpretion of these
verses)...READ IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!
Sincerely,
Cyrus:)
In article <366d8...@news1.mcmail.com>,
"Scott Birch" <scott...@mcmail.com> wrote:
Poor Cyrus: he tries to compensate for a deficit in synapses with
> a surplus of syllables.
>
> Cyrus, if you're reading this, the Quran tells the faithful to let pure
> men marry pure women and impure men marry impure women. I
> can agree with this one. You only deserve a virgin bride if you are
> a virgin yourself. You have no right to make a moral demand of
> a woman that she cannot make of you.
>
> Scott.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Scott Birch
mon...@erols.com wrote
>
>
>Dear Scott,
>
>Let me briefly
Is that an option? Oh, good :^)
>state that the Quranic Verse you are refering to does not have
>any intent whatsoever in making reference to the "virginity" of a girl or the
>"sexual experience" of the man(men don't have virginity)for your information.
Well, the meaning of the word "virginity" has changed over time.
English, unlike Classical Arabic, is a living language. These days,
it refers to either sex. English-speaking guys often talk of losing
their virginity. Men may not have the hymen but they can have
virginity to lose.
>
>That particular verse is refering to the "piety" level of the particular
>person in regard to their following Islam as Muslims....Purity of their
>devotion to being Muslims/to Islam.
Part of this being the correct standards of sexual behaviour,
I presume? What's the _essential_ difference between your
interpretation and mine?
My Arab Muslim friends (fluent in Quranic Arabic and English,
btw, have told me that the word "purity" in the context used
can be accepted as describing a lack of sexual experience.
>
>Another point is that the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and all of the Imams(ra) and
>so on....married many women, yet all of them made the mention(read the hadith
Which hadith? Recounted by which pundit? According to Muslims
one cannot trust the hadith collections because any opportunist
could have made one up and slipped it into whichever collection.
>regarding virgin girls as the preference for all Muslims--makes no mention of
>Muslimah)that one must always look for the most pious and young girls
>possible to acquire; and only should a "matron" be a second choice.
>
Indeed. Your prophet married a nine-year old girl. When she moved
in with the old satyr, she took her dolls with her, according to historical
accounts (It's up to you whether or not you trust these :^)
>The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) married the widowed-Khadijah first to let people
>know that it was OK to do so,
And for money.
>then married the chaste younglady Aishah.
The 9-year-old prebubescent girl Aishah.
>
>So, it is not your concern about my personal dealings when ever I meet a nice
>girl of interest for fiancee, I tell them the complete honest truth about
>everything,because I really don't care(and what is it of your concern anyhow?)
My concern is for the simple-minded girls you exploit (if they exist)
and, above all, for the species. It's disturbing to contemplate you
being allowed in the gene pool - even in the shallow end. :^)
>
>The moral demand issue is that everygirl has a demand on her husband which is
>different than that of the demands on her....That is what a prenuptial
>agreement is all about! That is Islamic law....
>
>Scott are you Muslim by the way?
[laughter]
Scott.