Knowledge: Islam or Western?
arah
Written by Ibrahim Babtunde
Friday, 24 June 2011
FOR centuries scholars have realised that Arabic and Islam have
contributed substantially to the world civilisation and culture. It
was Islam that revived the human pursuit of science and it was through
Arab and not the West that the modern world achieved light and power
through science.
In the ninth and tenth centuries, Muslims complied great lexicons and
developed philological learning in Islam. Initially, these learning
centres were located in mosques and later metamorphosed into
universities we have in Basra, Kufa, Cairo etc. They had been in
existence long before the West ever thought of establishing such.
H.G Wells in his (The Outline of History, 1972) was one of the first
historians to point to the importance of Islam in thought and
education. “At Cordova in particular there were great number of
Christian students and the influence of Arab philosophy coming by way
of Spain upon the University of Paris, Oxford and Northern Italy and
upon Western European thought generally was considerable indeed.
Robert Briffault (The Making of Humanity, 1928) asserts that there is
not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence
of Islamic civilisation is not traceable. He states that it is highly
possible that but for the Arabs modern European would never have
arisen at all. The Renaissance in Europe from 1350 to 1550 would not
have been possible or would have been much delayed if not for the
contribution of Arabs and Muslim Scientists who injected the spirit of
inquiry into Europeans. According to R. Briffault again, it was the
Arabs who introduced into Europeans new method of investigation, of
experiment of observation, of measurement, of the development of
Mathematics in a form unknown to the Greek.
Indeed, Europe’s Dark Age from 6th – 11th centuries was the age of
intellectual growth and scientific discoveries by the Arabs and the
Muslim world was blooming scientifically and technologically. At a
period when European schools were engrossed in church singing, reading
and simple arithmetic, Muslim scholars were translating Latin and
Greek books and establishing schools where science was taught. Phillip
Hitti has asserted that from eighth to 13th centuries, the Arabs were
the main bearers of torch of culture and civilisation throughout the
world. History of Arabs, 1984).
Not only did Europe and the entire world gain materially from Muslims’
advancements in science, from the beginning of the 10th century,
according to Schacht, European went in search of Greek works which had
perished but which had survived in the form of translations done by
the Muslim in Arabic language.
When news of Muslim advance in science reached the West, they trooped
to Muslim cities in search of the golden fleece. The like of Gerard of
Cremona was seen searching for Arabic works in Toledo. That is why
that Roger Bacon, a renowned Oxford Scientist declared that knowledge
of Arabic and Arabic science was for his contemporaries the only way
to true knowledge. Corroboration this already preponderant idea of
Muslim Scientific legacy to the world, Schacht says.
Gradually, Latin translations of these (Arabs) works appeared and the
wealth of Arab Science spread in England to Spain where contact was
more easily made.
James Westfall opines that constructive evidence as well as inverse
reasoning affirm the existence of the pursuit of Arabic Science in the
schools of Lorraine in the years immediately following the return of
John Gorz from Spain.
Concrete and indubitable proof of the West’s indebtedness to Islam
exists in the great hall of the School of Medicine at the University
of Paris where the portraits of al-Razi and Ibn Sina otherwise known
as Avicenna, the Prince of Physicians, (980–1037) proclaim the
scientific enterprise of the Muslim.
MUSLIM SCIENTISTS AND THEIR DISCOVERIES
Islamdom parades a formidable army of scientists philosophers as well
as scholars. While Cincient Greeks had men like Plato, Aristotle,
Euclide, Thales, Theodicious whose scientific theories only managed to
survive their generation and Europe boasts today of scholars like
Nicholas Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes
and Isaac Newton with their moribund and Godless postulates, the list
of seasoned and renowned scientists in Islamdom is endless while their
achievement rank them as premier inter pareil.
In the field of Mathematics, the Muslims were responsible for
introducing to the world Arabic numerals. The Muslims Mathematician,
Muhammed Ibn Musa who was the first to use decimal notation and to
give digits the value of position. Also we have al-Biruns (died 1048)
who wrote more than 100 books on Mathematics, geography, astronomy,
and pharmacy. Al-Khawarizmi (died 850) was a leading Mathematician.
Consequently, the Arabs made great advances in geometry invented
algebra, and developed spherical trigonometry, particularly the sine,
tangent and co-tangent.
In Chemistry, Muslims made indelible footprints by discovering many
new substances; potash, silver nitrate, corrosive sublimate and nitric
and sulphuric acid Great scientific works are attributed to Khalid bin
Yazid (died 708), Ja’far as-Sadiq the great jurist (died 765) and
their pupil Jarir bin Hayyan (died 815). Jabir bin Hayyan wrote 500
books but of these only 80 books appear to have survived. His magnum
opus is al-Zibak al-Sharki (The Oriental Quicksilver).
In manufacturing, they surpassed the rest of the world in variety and
beauty of design and perfection of workmanship. Their work in gold,
silver, copper, bronze and iron defies description. In design, they
are yet to be surpassed. Their glass and pottery were of the finest
quality and they knew the secret of dyeing and manufacturing paper.
Among the arts, poetry, calligraphy and architecture were highly
prized and mosques and other buildings remain which express the
Islamic ideals of beauty and harmony which express the Islamic ideals
of beauty and harmony. The love of beauty also found expression in
artefacts for daily use and decoration, ceramics, metal ware,
glassware and in production of fine fabrics and decorated carpets.
It was in the field of medicine that the Muslims reached their high
water-pitch in explorations. Great names like those of ar-Razi
(865-925), Ibn Sina (Avicenna 980-1037), Abdul-Qasim (Abucasis), Ibn
Rushd (1126-1198), Ibn Tufayl (1100-1185), are to be found on the list
of Muslim physicians and pharmacists. Az-Zahrawi (died 1013) was a
Surgeon. Ibn Zuhr (1091-1162) was the first to discuss the feeling in
bones.
They made advances in the uses of drugs, herbs and foods for
medication, established hospitals, with a system of interns and
externs; discovered the causes of certain diseases and developed
correct diagnoses of them; proposed new concepts of hygiene, made use
of anaesthetics in surgery with newly innovated surgical tools and
introduced the science of dissection in Anatomy. At the time when in
Europe the practice of medicine was forbidden by the church, which
expected cures to be effected by religious cities performed by the
clergy, the Arabs had a real science of medicine. The Muslims studied
physiology and hygiene and their material medical is still in use
today.
In art and architecture, the Muslim world showed its artistic
versatility in its construction of mosque, palaces, tombs, cities —
and it gave the world what is commonly known as “arabesques.” The Taj
Mahal in India, which today is acclaimed as one of the seven wonders
of the world, is a combination of tomb and mosque. Rabat, Cairo,
Tunis, Mecca, and Medina, to mention a few Muslim cities, are
citadels of Muslim art and architecture.
In Astronomy Ibn Rushd (Averroes 1126-1198) was the first to recognise
spots on the surface of the sun Al-Majiriti of Cordova (died 1007), az-
Zargali of Toledo (1029-1087) and Ibn Aflah of Sevile (died 1150) were
Hospano, all are astronomers of high repute. The Muslims built several
observations and constructed many types of astronomical instruments
which are still in use today. They worked out the angle of the
elliptic as well as the precession of equinoxes.
In Botany, ad-Dkhawari (died 895) was a household name. He was the
author of Kitab an-Nabat or Encyclopaedia Botanica in six thick
volumes. Ad-Dinawari is a good case for those who rightly claim that
Muslim science not only surpassed that of the Greek, it also did not
derive its source from the Glorious Qur’an.
Jesus Isa Yesua Christ , a long - term Fucker of St. Mary 's cunt the Prostitute , was a Fake son of GoD
you are talking about the past of Islam ,
not the future of ISLAM
asdf asdf
of St. Mary 's cunt the Prostitute , was a Fake son of GoD"
And Islam only contribute suicide bombers now.
publeak
a knife for killing someone.
Islam is just a tool to reach God. Good Muslims will use it to do good
while evil muslims will use
islam to justify their evil deeds. Muslim scholars got much of their
knowledge from the East especially
from India and China. They were like the present day Japanese who
copied the technology from
the US and later invented their own products.
Yoohoooo
Islam "invented" that there are 72 virgins in heaven
available for those who is willing to kill non muslims
in the name of so-called God Alloh swt, period !
AleXX
Should re-write the koran and include a chapter on how to be a successful
suicide bombers.
*******************
"arah" <arah...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1a37f6f-020a-4961...@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
Yoohoooo
news:iu4ot3$6gs$1...@registered.motzarella.org:
> Islam gave birth to modern suicide bombings.
> Should re-write the koran and include a chapter on how to be a
> successful suicide bombers.
that chapter would include some guidance where to look for funding,
what underground network to contact etc
and also some bonus chapter : how to install a simple home-made DIY bomb
wakakakakakkakkkk
Keong Racun
> FOR centuries scholars have realised that Arabic and Islam have
> contributed substantially to the world civilisation and culture. It
> was Islam that revived the human pursuit of science and it was through
> Arab and not the West that the modern world achieved light and power
> through science.
>
islam invented that paedophile is HALAL for a filthy prophet :))
Yoohoooo
2a2063...@q29g2000prj.googlegroups.com:
> Good Muslims will use it to do good
> while evil muslims will use
> islam to justify their evil deeds. Muslim scholars got much of their
> knowledge from the East especially
>
Muslim's Qoran is a twisted Torah + Injeel according to Moo's halucinative perception
of his ears capturing words from whom he believed to be "jibril" which actualy the
genie of Hira cave
AntiDabianchenVirus
> Knowledge: Islam or Western?
> Written by Ibrahim Babtunde
> Friday, 24 June 2011
>
> FOR centuries scholars have realised that Arabic and Islam have
> contributed substantially to the world civilisation and culture.
Hey, ugly muslim whore troll Jane Abraham/nur/arah! If your "Allah" is
so great, why couldn't he even protect his jihad warrior Bin Laden
from the infidels? Was he so eager to get rid of another 70 virgins?
Yoohoooo
4e0b-a4bc-0...@28g2000yqu.googlegroups.com:
> Was he so eager to get rid of another 70 virgins?
>
it is 72 virgins actually,
did you keep the other 2 for you ?
AntiDabianchenVirus
>> Was he so eager to get rid of another 70 virgins?
>
>it is 72 virgins actually,
>did you keep the other 2 for you ?
No, they were given to Mohammad as commission!
mythbu...@lycos.com
> Knowledge: Islam or Western?
> Written by Ibrahim Babtunde
> Friday, 24 June 2011
>
> FOR centuries scholars have realised that Arabic and Islam have
> contributed substantially to the world civilisation and culture.
The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth By: Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | Friday, November 15, 2002
Second in a series of excerpts adapted by Robert Locke from Dr. Serge
Trifkovic’s
new book The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to
Islam
The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to
glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a
victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary
liberal mind. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the
attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of other
civilizations beyond what the facts support. The noble savage myth is
a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied
about concerning the supposed "golden age" of Islamic civilization
during what we know as the Middle Ages.
The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam’s apologists to
save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove,
as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin
Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a
confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes
up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic
or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral
foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese
order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.
Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to
serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who
propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that
their goal is,
"to recover for postmodernity that lost medieval Judeo-Islamic
trading, social and cultural world, its high point pre-1492 Moorish
Spain, which permitted and relished a plurality, a convivencia, of
religions and cultures, Christian, Jewish and Moslem; which prized an
historic internationality of space along with the valuing of
particular cities; which was inclusive and cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan
here meaning an ease with different cultures: still so rare and
threatened a value in the new millennium as in centuries past."
In other words, a fairy tale designed to create the illusion that
multiculturalism has valid historical precedents that prove it can
work.
To be fair, the myth of the golden age of Islam does have a partially
valid starting point: there were times in the past when Moslem
societies attained higher levels of civilization and culture than they
did at other times. There have been times, that is, when some Moslem
lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. Baghdad under Harun ar-
Rashid (his well-documented Christian-slaying and Jew-hating
proclivities notwithstanding), or Cordova very briefly under Abd ar-
Rahman in the tenth century, come to mind. These isolated episodes,
neither long nor typical, are endlessly invoked by Islam’s Western
apologists and admirers.
This "golden" period in question largely coincides with the second
dynasty of the Caliphate or Islamic Empire, that of the Abbasids,
named after Muhammad’s uncle Abbas, who succeeded the Umayyads and
ascended to the Caliphate in 750 AD. They moved the capital city to
Baghdad, absorbed much of the Syrian and Persian culture as well as
Persian methods of government, and ushered in the "golden age."
This age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement.
A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic
rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or
substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and
other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed
to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they
were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-
Moslem sources.
Three speculative thinkers, notably the three Persians al-Kindi, al-
Farabi, and Avicenna, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with
other ideas introduced through Islam. Greatly influenced by Baghdad’s
Greek heritage in philosophy that survived the Arab invasion, and
especially the writings of Aristotle, Farabi adopted the view —
utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint — that reason is superior to
revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of truth, and,
like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to provide guidance
to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning of the authority
of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote more than 100
works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous City. But
these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire belongs
to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it, indeed
opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see again and
again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or political
achievement, are usually the least Moslem.
The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized
rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science
solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as
they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical
explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the
limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in
their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention
to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers
both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution,
exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the
philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.
On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averroës exercised much
influence on both Jewish and Christian thinkers with his
interpretations of Aristotle. While mostly faithful to Aristotle’s
method, he found the Aristotelian "prime mover" in Allah, the
universal First Cause. His writings brought him into political
disfavor and he was banished until shortly before his death, while
many of his works in logic and metaphysics had been consigned to the
flames. He left no school.
From Spain the Arabic philosophic literature was translated into
Hebrew and Latin, which contributed to the development of modern
European philosophy. In Egypt around the same time, Moses Maimonides
(a Jew) and Ibn Khaldun made their contribution. A Christian,
Constantine "the African," a native of Carthage, translated medical
works from Arabic into Latin, thus introducing Greek medicine to the
West. His translations of Hippocrates and Galen first gave the West a
view of Greek medicine as a whole.
The "golden age" of Islamic art lasted from AD 750 to the mid-11th
century, when ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated
manuscripts, and woodwork flourished. Lustered glass became the
greatest Islamic contribution to ceramics. Manuscript illumination
became an important and greatly respected art, and miniature painting
flourished in Iran. Calligraphy, an essential aspect of written
Arabic, developed in manuscripts and architectural decoration.
In the exact sciences the contribution of Al-Khwarzimi, mathematician
and astronomer, was considerable. Like Euclid, he wrote mathematical
books that collected and arranged the discoveries of earlier
mathematicians. His "Book of Integration and Equation" is a
compilation of rules for solving linear and quadratic equations, as
well as problems of geometry and proportion. Its translation into
Latin in the 12th century provided the link between the great Hindu
mathematicians and European scholars. A corruption of the book’s title
resulted in the word algebra; a corruption of the author’s own name
resulted in the term algorithm.
The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a
convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so
not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran
societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that
possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to
completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the
remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for
the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never
encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the
only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.
As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem
Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east,
of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important
innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China
and decimal positional numbering from India." The decimal numbers were
thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as
"Arabic" numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.
Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam’s "golden age"
were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little
application, be it in technology or politics. At the present day, for
almost a thousand years even speculation has stopped, and the bounds
of what is considered orthodox Islam have frozen, except when they
have even contracted, as in the case of Wahabism. Those who try to
push the fundamentals of Moslem thought any further into the light of
modernity frequently pay for it with their lives. The fundamentalists
who ruled Afghanistan until recently and still rule in Iran hold up
their supposed golden age as a model for their people and as a
justification for their tyranny. Westerners should know better.
mythbu...@lycos.com
> Written by Ibrahim Babtunde
> Friday, 24 June 2011
Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in
England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at
Stanford. His past journalistic outlets have included the BBC World
Service, the Voice of America, CNN International, MSNBC, U.S. News &
World Report, The Washington Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, The
Times of London, and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He is foreign affairs
editor of Chronicles.. Robert Locke is Associate Editor of Front Page
Magazine.
Frankie Lee
Frankie's comments:It is so amazing that Muslims have now become
sanitized,or are they really?Honestly,Muslims did prove themselves as
the most stupid group of people ever.
Here is why.
Was it really,it is the Islamisation pushed,the reasons for moral
civilization or isn't it they do it for a more immoral civilizations?
Why you look at the distant past of "bad" history,but unable to see
for yourself the current history?
Look at Islamic nations,the OIC,the groupings of Islam countries.Have
you noticed their backwardness and evil intent?Which part of Shariah
Laws which they had implemented today is moral,or contribute to
civilizations,huh?When OIC gathers,they spewed hatred and strife and
wars,and anti-Jews' sentiments.Is this what you called positive
developments?Look at your model example,the Saudi Kingdom.What do you
see?An oppressive regime,known and well known all throughout the
world--yet you have the audacity to make lies here,through some
hideous creatures,some Islamic scholars analysis?Are you truly blind
or what?
Look at Pakistan.Indonesia.Just take a good hard look at most Muslim
countries.Why don't you go bak to your source,the original source,the
Koran?The life of your prophet Muhammad?Look at their terrorisms
then,and their terrorism today?
Look no further.Have you not seen scores of Islamists from Indo and
Malays curse our land to the core just over any minor issue?
It was the example of Muhammed who had sex with little girl,prompted
many Muslims to follow his examples,and it is the West,the moral
culture of the West which condemn pedophile,and awaken you to the
sense of what is right and wrong.
Your religion is most intolerant,wicked and stupid.If it is just your
stupid religion,everybody would mind their own business,but the
Islamic religion is continually imposing their rules and their immoral
into everyone's life,and must our world eat food according to your
archaic and silly rules,HAlal Food?Muslims countries have always shows
their intolerance and hatred,never for once had been seen as
Godlike,or righteous.When did Muslims pursue Holiness,and
righteousness and decencies?
The Muslims today went to the UN to hope to impose their views on all
nations.Apostasy in Islam is to be killed.Man can married to 4
wives.What kind of nonsense is all these?Did God create man with one
wife or 4 wives?Tell me,intoday's debate all across the world---which
Islamic scholar can stand up to scritiny,but have they not been shamed
all across the world by their own defective Faith?
There is nothing good in this religion,or has it been shown to be
peaceful.The Buddhists were more peaceful than yours.Isalm is the
curse of this world and continually creating problems for our decent
civilisations.This is the truths.You know it.I know it.Everybody knows
it.No matter how many times you hope to lie,and spread lies,what is
the truths will remain the truths,and no amount of lies can change the
facts,the realities and the truths,for it stand alone.
By deceiving others,you actually deceiving yourself and only bring
greater sufferings to yourself and all your own people.
Inventor
> You kept writing in these public Usenet groups that Jesus is a thief
> who will steal you away in the middle of the night to take you to the
> mansion which he has prepared for you. Why are you still here? Are you
> not good enough for him, Frankie (the Singaporean "house nigger") 锟斤拷锟斤拷
> Lee?
>
> This fits you perfectly, doesn't it? Isaiah 53:3 .
>
> Proof that you are a LIAR and a FRAUD, Frankie (the Singaporean "house
> nigger") 锟斤拷锟斤拷 pile-of-dog-shit Lee.
>
> Here are links proving irrefutably that you have lied - again and
> again, and again:
<snip>
> These are not "articles", which you claimed, but links to posts by
> various netters showing that you have lied.
>
> You can't pray or wangle your way out of these, Frankie (Singaporean
> "house nigger") Lee!
>
> You can bet your Jesus' ass that I shall persist to expose you until
> the day you enter the Gates of Hell - and then some!
Is that the best that you can wish him?
Yoohoooo
c97542...@m22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> You kept writing in these public Usenet groups that Jesus is a thief
> who will steal you away in the middle of the night to take you to the
> mansion which he has prepared for you. Why are you still here? Are you
> not good enough for him, Frankie (the Singaporean "house nigger") ����
> Lee?
I wish ya all the best, may God Almighty
Jesus Christ bless be upon you my son,
peace on earth for those who are in HIS favour.
Criminal Cat (Koetjing Garong)
> Is that the best that you can wish him?
>
so, what best can you wish him be ???
hows your meal btw ? still that favorite faeces burger ?
Wusong
> Frankie's comments:It is so amazing that Muslims have now become
> sanitized,or are they really?Honestly,Muslims did prove themselves as
> the most stupid group of people ever.
Hey, Frankie (the Singaporean "house nigger") 汉奸 pile-of-dog-shit Lee!
You kept writing in these public Usenet groups that Jesus is a thief
who will steal you away in the middle of the night to take you to the
mansion which he has prepared for you. Why are you still here? Are you
not good enough for him, Frankie (the Singaporean "house nigger") 汉奸
Lee?
This fits you perfectly, doesn't it? Isaiah 53:3 .
Proof that you are a LIAR and a FRAUD, Frankie (the Singaporean "house
nigger") 汉奸 pile-of-dog-shit Lee.
Here are links proving irrefutably that you have lied - again and
again, and again:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/099ffc80202e34f7
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/90e35749044ac347
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/3ed31a4083dd0785
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/5ed7ae230e045ad7
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/186985ccc6c8edf8
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/8fdc53c778da7b40?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/357230535a60a5b3
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/1a944cf708586e8c?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/f8878e7666137efb?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/msg/d9b72bd62982053f
Maha
"Wusong" wrote in message
news:8a6a61bd-41a9-4bef...@m22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...