what is and what isn't a telugu poem)
V. Chowdary Jampala
> zampaala gaaru: while I concur with many of your arguments
> only. I think you just chose a wrong example for a free verse.
>
> This verse "polaala nannI" follows the meter of "chaturasra" gati
> THROUGH-OUT (4+4+4+4) or (8+8).
>
As Ramakrishna Pillalamarri also demonstrated, I really chose the
wrong example, didn't I? Ramakrishna is familiar with this physician's
inability to count the 'maatralu'. Well, I am told that an occasional
helping of crow is good for the soul. :-)
> "Bhaja gOvindam" and "marO prapancham" also follow a matra gait of 8+8.
>
Right. Srisri himself talks about that in some essay (or, maybe
it is in anantam).
>
> But all your arguments can still hold good, if we just substitute the
> example of "polaala nannI" with either "kavitaa O kavitaa" or "jagannatha
> ratha chakraalu" wherein the maatraa count and gait varies as the verse
> progresses.
>
Yes, kavitaa O kavitaa would have been a better example to
demonstrate many of the things talked about in one of my previous
posts. It is, indeed, a fine example of a vacana kavita that 'runs' without
the aid of chandassu.
> Yes, rhythm is not the prerogative of traditional Chando-meters. And I consider
> that the mutyaala saraalu meter and other maatra-Chandassu meters (and also
> few upajaati meters) suit very much to the modern poetry, because their
> shorter cycles fecilitate easy recital/reading of this poetry, which I think
> is hall-mark of adhunika kavitwam.
I do not know if we can say that there is a single hall-mark
anymore for aadhunika kavitvamu (other than that there is rarely any use
of the tradtional chando-meters).
Regards. --- V. Chowdary Jampala
Suresh Kolichala
I can say, without much hessitation, that SrISrI never really repudiated
ChandO-meters. Yes, he revolted against the usage of traditional ChandO
meters, but he never really discredited the importance of rhythm for
poetry.
Trust me, majority of the verses in mahaa prasthaanam and khaDga SRshTi
can be shown to fit the structure of *well-defined* matraa-Chandassu
meters. (It is no coincidence that we find that the consecutive lines
in majority of the verses in these books to have equal count of maatralu).
Importantly, SrISrI was very well aware of the meters that he was making
use of, a fact that can be validated from his articles like "kRtyaadavastha"
"naa vyaasam" etc., where SrISrI himself discussed the Chandassu in mahaa
prasthaanam verses at a great length.
My understanding of what SrISrI did is this: He studied the prosidical
aspects of poetry thoroughly, and then went on to experiment with "new"
meters to prove the futility of the rigid structure of traditional meters.
It is his masterly understanding of the relationship between rasam and
dhwani that created the evocative poetry of mahaa prasthaanam.
[From his own articles, we know that most of the meters SrISrI experimented
with were not really "new", but they were borrowed from the old sanskrit
literature and modified a little to suit the modern telugu poetry.]
Yes, tilak *did* write much of his poetry in free verse, that is, he wrote
poetry without consciously following any prosidical structure, and many
others followed the suit. But have no doubts to say that SrISrI didn't
write much poetry in free-verse !!
Having said the above, now let me go out on a limb and state that while
tilak has a better ability to paint pictures with words than SrISrI, it
is the superior rhythmic quality found in SrISrI's poetry that makes his
verses more appealing than tilak's. [Caveat: I'm not comparing these two
poets, but comparing only the appeal their poetry can evoke; to speak
about their relative poetic merits, we need to consider many other
factors, not the least of them is that SrISrI was a pioneer].
For instance, compare the verses from SrISrI's "nava kavita" with that
from tilak's "kavita -- navata", both of which are written on the
identical theme of "modern poetry". I think that the rhythm in SrISrI's
verses help generate evocative impulses even before we get to understand
the literal meaning and the essence.
To me, rhythm is an important ingredient of poetry. Accepting the
Freudian classification of conscious levels, I tend to believe that
the grasping of the literary essence happens at the conscious level,
whereas the rhythm and music act upon the sub-conscious and unconscious
levels. What say folks ?
Regards,
Suresh.
Ramarao Kanneganti
>
> I can say, without much hessitation, that SrISrI never really repudiated
> ChandO-meters. Yes, he revolted against the usage of traditional ChandO
> meters, but he never really discredited the importance of rhythm for
> poetry.
True, especially in early years!! He in fact, reveled in them. Was marO
prapancham set to the tune of Bhajagovindam? [tune == chandassu, once you
stretch the meaning and the vowels.]
But, later years, one can find him jettisoning these earlier rules. For
examples, his pieces in Khadga sRishti are of free verse variety.
> Having said the above, now let me go out on a limb and state that while
> tilak has a better ability to paint pictures with words than SrISrI, it
> is the superior rhythmic quality found in SrISrI's poetry that makes his
> verses more appealing than tilak's. [Caveat: I'm not comparing these two
> poets, but comparing only the appeal their poetry can evoke; to speak
> about their relative poetic merits, we need to consider many other
> factors, not the least of them is that SrISrI was a pioneer].
I very much agree that the rhythemic metres of SriSri are easier to
read/sing. Several telugu songs have achieved fame precisely for that
reason. We can't imagine a telugu song without some chandassu.
Having said that I think this utpalamaala like chandassu is quite dull for
singing. Why it lived for century, oye, it is a mystery to me. Also, this
thing about prasa sounds farmisht! I don't see how it creates the rhythm!
Yati, that I can understand. It gives a person a breather to stop reading. But
if they allowed yati in the middle of the world, one can ask, which fonfer
wrote these rules? Do they think I am going to stop in the middle of word to
take a breath?
As if these rules were not enough there is these shmegegges who embedded poems
in sarpa bandham, churikaa bandham etc. Does it look like a misused NSF grant
for theory research?
> To me, rhythm is an important ingredient of poetry. Accepting the
> Freudian classification of conscious levels, I tend to believe that
> the grasping of the literary essence happens at the conscious level,
> whereas the rhythm and music act upon the sub-conscious and unconscious
> levels. What say folks ?
Agreed completely. (Is there an unconscious level? I never consciously felt
it:-)!!).
> Regards,
> Suresh.
--rama
PS: This message is brought to you by the fine yiddish establishment, 2nd Ave
Deli. Mazeltov!!
Suresh Kolichala
Chowdary Jampala wrote :
> If my understanding of chandassu is close to its definition, then the
> contested issues in this thread with regards to chandassu are:
>
> 1) chandassu is necessary for poetry to be a) rhythmic, and/or evocative.
> I hold that while chandassu can certainly help poetry to be rhythmic,
> chandassu is neither necessary/sufficient for rhythm/evocation/poetry.
>
> 2) that rhythm is essential for poetry (this is not a strongly stated
> issue so far, and when stated, it is usually softened with several caveats,
> and there hasn't been much discussion of it).
1. Let me answer second question first. I consider rhythm as one of
crucial elements contributing to the poem's evocativeness. This
doesn't mean that the poetry that lacks rhythm cannot be be a
good/evocative poetry.
2. Now, coming to first question: Yes, Chandassu is neither necessary
nor sufficient for writing rhythmic poetry -- But a good sense on
the writer's part in picking the right meter and appropriate words
(without any unnatural constructions etc.), I think, can almost
always guarantee a minimum rhythmic quality to the poem.
3. I do agree that by breaking the tyranny of (unduly) rigid structures
of traditional ChandO-meters SrISrI did open doors to the vast rhythmic
potentials. But by making an appeal to break the shackles of Chandassu,
he did succeed in misleading minds of young writers into believing
that he is writing free verse (whether he intended it or not is a
separate question), even while he embarked on to exploit the great
flexibility and the rhythmic structure that maatra Chandassu offers.
I do think that anyone attempting to write in free verse must atleast
understand the basics of maatra Chandassu, before going on to bending
the rules, nay, re-inventing the rhythm. Otherwise, in his belief that
SrISrI always wrote in free verse, he will never understand why SrISrI's
verses are brimming with such a rhythmic quality and would end up
blaming his own inabilities in creating flow and rhythm. Does
anyone agree with me here ?
As an aside, it is my understanding that a song is not same as poem,
tune is not equal to Chandassu, and singing a song is not same
as reciting poetry (or reading a poem rhythmically).
The difference, I think, is that when singing, the singer modulates
his/her voice from one frequency to another frequency, thus adding
a newer dimension called melody. The fact that the lyrics for many
a melodious song do not follow the rules of any maatraa Chandassu
should help illustrate my point (How about tyAgarAja's endarO mahAnu...)!
Did it ever happen to you that you had found the lyrics of a song
very unappealing and dull when you didn't know the tune for that song,
but you reversed your opinion after listening to the song and tune ?
Boy, I can't tell you how many times such a thing happened to me.
What is the difference: I think melody and the tune.
In contrast, when poetry is read to oneself (or recited on a stage),
it is done in a monotone. Here, no voice modulation or no melody is
assumed. When poetry is read in monotone, it appears to be correct
(to me) to assume that the utterance of a guruvu syllable takes two
units of time a laghuvu takes one unit of time; And such an assumption
forms the basic premise for the elaborate theories developed under
the broad heading of "ChandaSSaastra". I for one, think that the
understanding of these theories will greatly help create enchanting
rhythmic verses and I strongly suggest that fledgling writers
should atleast get the grasp of some of these fundamentals. What
say other literati ?
Regards,
Suresh.
V. Chowdary Jampala
> identical theme of "modern poetry". I think that the rhythm in SrISrI's
> verses help generate evocative impulses even before we get to understand
> the literal meaning and the essence.
Quoting from Srisri's radio lecture on his poetry, reprinted in
Srisri vyaasaalu:
(speaking of kavitaa O kavitaa as an example of Vers Libre, quotes
signify English words).
(begin quote)
... ani konni dRUsyaala, roopachitraala jaabitaa. deenini
'catalogue poetry' ani okaayana annaaDu. aa maaTa kottadi kaadu. 'Eliot,
Auden' modalaina kavulu ee 'evocative' paddhatini avalambincaaru.
vEdaalanaaTi nunci nETidaakaa Evocation anEdi kavitvapu mukhya
laXaNaalaalO okaTi.
(some examples of Sanskrit and earlier Telugu poetry that employs
'lists' follows)
ikkaDa manassu naakarshincEdi Candassu kaadu. varusagaa okadaani
tarvaata okatigaa vaccE 'Images' okaanoka maanasikaavasthanu, oka
'mood'nu sRUahTistaayi....
'Poetry is evocation'. ayitE okka 'evocation' maatramE 'poetry'
kaadu....
kavitvam parugeDutundannaanu. ee vEgaanni saadhincE oka upaayam
chandassu. Chandassu sahaayam lEkunDaa kooDaa ee vEgaanni teesuku
raavaccu. uttamamaina 'prose poems' anninTilO ee guNam kanabaDutundi.
anupraasalavallanu, oka maaTagaani, konni maaTalanugaani punaScharaNa
ceyyaDam vallanu, yamakam vallanu, vaakyaroopaanni maarcaDam vallanu
vacanageetamlO ee guNaanni saadhinca vaccunu...
(end quote)
This is what I was talking about earlier when I was referring
about how Srisri's poetry runs even when he is outside 'chandassu' (PRK
has to excuse my continued transgression, I am using chandassu as Srisri
used it).
regards. --- Chowdary Jampala
Ramarao Kanneganti
> Ramarao Kanneganti writes on SrISrI's penchant for metrical poetry :
> > Also, this thing about prasa sounds farmisht! I don't see how it creates
> > the rhythm!
> praasa does seem to contribute to rhythm :
I believe it is the rhythm that creates the lilt here. Let us take each piece
by piece and remove the praasa and see how it sounds:
> naraala biguvu
> karaala sattuva
> varaala varsham
> kuripinchaalani
change it to: (albeit meaningless, but metrical)
naraala biguvoo
nayaana sattuva
vishaala viswam
kanipinchaalani
I can sing this as easily as the above verse. The secret is the parallel
maatraas, which can be remembered in a short metre. [I concede, if praasa ever
makes sense that is in a short metre.]
> or
>
> madilOni baalA
> eduraina vELa
> padahaaru vElA
> madhiraakshulEla ?
Works here. Short metre does hinge on praasa occasionally.
> or
> poTTa kooDu meekeeyaka
> chaTTu banDalaaye chanduvu
> mETa vEsi pOye medaDu
> brashTu baTTi batuku
Let us mutilate it as follows and sing it aloud:
poTTa kooDu meekeeyaka
chaddi tindi paDaveyyaka
tinna inTi gaDapekkina
nanna naana nananannana.
No praasa, but still works. The geminization is the key.
> or
>
> odigi odigi baDugu janam paDi unDE daanaaDu
> eduru tirigi nigga deesi praSnichE deenaaDu
Here, it is not the praasa at work. Change eduru to parugu. The
aanaaDu/eenaaDu is a parallel construct, much as in English, and it works
well.
> > Yati, that I can understand. It gives a person a breather to stop reading.
> > But if they allowed yati in the middle of the world, one can ask, which
> > fonfer wrote these rules? Do they think I am going to stop in the middle
> > of word to take a breath?
>
> I too think that there should be a word-break at yati-sthaanam.
>
> Reg. achieving rhythm in a poem, I agree with Jampaala gaaru that
> 'the only golden rule is that there is no golden rule'. But the
> usage of these metrical structures is more like following instructions
> from the recipe book. If you are not a good cook and even if you don't
> understand the reasons behind all those instructions, you can still
> manage to prepare a tasty food by following those rules in that book.
> With traditional ChandO-meters, we really had an old recipe book ;)
Alas, tastes change. Ingredients change. The best AP has to offer -- aavakaaya
-- is prepared with Chillis, an import from South America. I bet that
aavakaaya with pepper followed a different recipe. We cannot use the old
recipes blindly. If they said cook for 10 mins, they meant in a wooden stove,
not on the latest gas oven. If we use as is, like the imitative poetry, it
comes out burnt.
Therefore my philosophy is see what the recipes are trying to achive: easy
reading, parallelism, a musical tonal quality to the words. Apply it to what
you are writing. Re-invent the rhythm.
> I think SrISrI also believed that (theoritically) it is possible to
> achieve rhythm in a free verse and proved that with kavitaa O kavitaa.
> But more often, he took an easier route and used (or should I say,
> cleverly mixed) the well-known maatraa ChandO meters to accomplish
> the flow and rhythm.
In plenty of places, he 'bends' the (non)existent rules to make it more
lyrical. That is where his genius comes in -- see the forest, not just the
trees.
> Regards,
> Suresh.
>
> > --rama
--rama
Ramarao Kanneganti
> As an aside, it is my understanding that a song is not same as poem,
> tune is not equal to Chandassu, and singing a song is not same
> as reciting poetry (or reading a poem rhythmically).
Granted, song is not the same as a poem. Song has some more dimensions to it
than a poem.
> In contrast, when poetry is read to oneself (or recited on a stage),
> it is done in a monotone. Here, no voice modulation or no melody is
> assumed. When poetry is read in monotone, it appears to be correct
> (to me) to assume that the utterance of a guruvu syllable takes two
> units of time a laghuvu takes one unit of time; And such an assumption
Minor disagreement here. Poem may be read in monotone -- but there is a
"toogu" in the reading that alters the measurement of a syllable. For example,
I always notice that I elongate one maatra for "naraala biguvu" at the
end. That is the "toogu" that poem has. Also, there are natural places to stop
a poem, where a guruvu can become a laguvu. Sri Sri knows these things when he
created those poems.
Incidentally lyrics are meant to be sung on a lyre. I don't know how much
melodious overtones that a lyre can afford, but poems are meant to be sung, if
at least in bath tubs.
> forms the basic premise for the elaborate theories developed under
> the broad heading of "ChandaSSaastra". I for one, think that the
> understanding of these theories will greatly help create enchanting
> rhythmic verses and I strongly suggest that fledgling writers
> should atleast get the grasp of some of these fundamentals. What
> say other literati ?
No chandaSSasthra is explained with a genetic introuction as far I have
seen. I would dearly like somebody to write a book that starts off with the
heading of "Rhythms in Poetry" and check some of the selected poems and see
what rhythmic devices they have used. By exculsively concentrating on
chandassu, we are losing a greater variation of rhythms in poetry.
Such a book deserves a person with fresh approach to the subject of chandassu
and a familiarity with different poetic traditions. I wish somebody like
velchEru naaraayaNa raavu will take up this task.
Speaking of poetic traditions, has anyone read "Illusion and Reality -- A
study into the origins of poetry" by Christopher Caudwell? For 10 extra points
discuss the relevance of that book to this thread.
> Regards,
> Suresh.
--rama
Ramarao Kanneganti
At the risk of appearing overly self-promotional, here is a recycled article:
kavitaa, O kavitaa
-
Rama Kanneganti
Life is funny that way, oozing poetry out of insignificant corners. A friend
of mine, who visited acropolis in her childhood, says that she all that
remembers about that place is the steps being too big for her to climb. That
is the most memorable thing for me about Greece--the abode of Gods, the cradle
of the great civilization, measured in the footsteps of a child! Who says
there is no poetry in life? Didn't the bard say:
kaLLanToo unTEcoosi,
vaakkunTE vraasee!
Then it is not always easy to find the poetry in life. Life is funny that way,
forcing people to fight every step of the way. Of course, often the "wise"
people explain to them they suffer as a retribution from God or market
forces. What they don't explain is how to get better. These doctors are
interested only in diagnosis, not prognosis!!
What was I telling you about? Ah, poetry!! The rhythmic meters of
yester years or the experimental poems of the modern day are not what
I am referring to. I am trying to remember the events in life, not
necessarily mine, where poetry comes out of unseen quarters. All I
remember is in abstract and nothing concrete materializes, as the poet
of the poets says:
gaali visarula taavilaa paaripOtoo
padma patra mivambhasaa jaaripOtoo
The memories behave the same.
May be when you were a baby, your mother took you out into the
moonlight and sang gently in that night. May be the coconut leaves
were gently swaying in that cool breeze. May be even you were smiling
then. It could have been a poetic memory, but alas, you don't remember
it.
Then there was the beginning of youth. It was the time when girls you
played with till few years ago look mysterious. You begin to see them
with strange fascination. Every smile looks suggestive and every look
alluring. The scent of jasmine precedes them and a hint of unexpressed
sexuality follows them. Your five senses don't seem enough to absorb
the budding sensual force. You want to capture that essence with a
whisper, a suggestion of intrigue, and may be a kiss. But there are
fetters on your feet and shutters in your eyes. Your imaginations pass
into dreams and you become an adult.
Being an adult is different; you dream little, for you dream
responsibly. There will be poetry on some tired evening, when a
remembered memory comes across the mind, triggered by some shared
laughter. On a cool sunday morning, languid limbs seek out the person
lying next. The excitement of the mystery is now replaced by the
comfort of the familiar. In such semi-consciousness, some poetry seeps
by.
As you grow old does poetry disappear? Not entirely. The emerging new
life rejuvenates poetry in your life. You will rediscover it in the
smile of the infant, the first faltering step of the baby, and the
affectionate hug of the child. Then you realize life itself is poetry,
and it will live on forever.
Rama Kanneganti
Sep 7, '94.
PS: Little Kamala (named after her grand father kamala naabhuDu) is soon going
to be one year old and she continues to bring poetry into our small household.
Mar 14, '96
Suresh Kolichala
> -
> Rama Kanneganti
What a soul-stirring article !!
To parody the wandering poet, I would say :
One impulse from the vernal wood
may teach you more of rhythm
of melody, music and of poetry
than all the theories can !
(*forgive me for not maintaining the rhyme, as in the original*)
I only wish I had more time for participating in all the on-going
discussions on this forum ;-( By the way, my 2 year long association
with IBM microkernel team is coming to an end. A month from now, I
may be sending mails to this group from a different e-mail address
(and perhaps, from a different location. if that matters ;)
Regards,
Suresh.