Consecration of Maha Vishnu Idol at Harmandir Sahib: Historical Proof!
N. Tiwari
: Does anybody contributing to this thread know who or what is Maha Vishnu?
: -sg
Just a wild guess. What is Hari. In "Hindu" scriptures, are'nt Hari
and Vishnu the same. And also, what is Hari in Hari-mandir. Are
there any Sikh scritures, which throw some light on the 'Hari'
aspect of the Harimandir.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
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Rajiv Varma
Jaswinder Singh <yu10...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
>: sgh...@iitk.ernet.in wrote:
>: : Does anybody contributing to this thread know who or what is Maha Vishnu?
>
>: : -sg
>
>: Just a wild guess. What is Hari. In "Hindu" scriptures, are'nt Hari
>: and Vishnu the same. And also, what is Hari in Hari-mandir. Are
>: there any Sikh scritures, which throw some light on the 'Hari'
>: aspect of the Harimandir.
>
>
>NOT GOD.... he is just a Devta! as far as Sikh's are concerened.
>
>"Maha" means "all great"... but where is "Maha Vishnu?" in the Sri
>Guru Granth Sahib Ji...obviously I don't read all of Varma's
>postings...but I did ask this question before..and I'm sure I didn't
>get any Response...
>
I did respond, but to Rajwinder, not to you, Jas.
Again, if in the verse 'banayo ghar Maha bishnoo ko' if Maha Bishnoo is
in reference to Ek Onkaar God, then how can Ek Onkaar need a ghar (house)
in the middle of the sarovar ???
Does a Niraakaar God need a house in the middle of the sacred tank?
Why is Harimandir Sahib not called a Gurudwara? Why it is a Hari ka Mandir?
>
> If it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...it will be like "Maha
>Kaal"..meaning the One and only all prevading God..as far as I'm
>concerened...not the Devta Vishnu..
>
IMHO, .... the references to Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Hari, Bramha, etc. in
the Gurbani are not made to the Ek Onkaar, they are there keeping the
age-old Hindu tradition of tolerance and acceptability of fellow panths,
as all these panths lead to the same summit on the mountain.
Let me give you an analogy. Vedantists do not say to the monists or
qualified monists that you are wrong or your philosophy is unacceptable.
They say that "you don't know the higher truth, which we know." Yours is
truth too, but ours is higher, and so and so are the reasons.
Similarly, Gurbani while stressing on the Nirakaar form of God and saying
that Ek Onkaar is the higher truth, also recognizes and accepts other
forms of worship, e.g. Pauranic devatas and gods, and Rama and Krishna.
Again, the Gurus stressed (philosophically) that 'we are telling you a
higher truth'; though 'whatever you already know is also true.'
When the Gurus attacked false pseudo-brahmanical rituals of their times
it was meant for the entire Hindu society, and not just the sikhs. It
does not mean that they were attacking the Hindu Gods or attacking their
mode of worship. Instead they were saying that you can attain moksha (or
mokha) by subscribing to the Ek Onkaar.
[Note that this this quite different from semitic line of thought which
says that ours is the only way, and all other ways to reach God are false.]
I hope the distinction is clear.
>
>Regards,
>Jas.
>
regards,
Rajiv Varma
Jaswinder Singh
: sgh...@iitk.ernet.in wrote:
: : Does anybody contributing to this thread know who or what is Maha Vishnu?
: : -sg
: Just a wild guess. What is Hari. In "Hindu" scriptures, are'nt Hari
: and Vishnu the same. And also, what is Hari in Hari-mandir. Are
: there any Sikh scritures, which throw some light on the 'Hari'
: aspect of the Harimandir.
Isn't Hari..=God...not Vishnu...Vishnu is NOT ..I repeat
NOT GOD.... he is just a Devta! as far as Sikh's are concerened.
"Maha" means "all great"... but where is "Maha Vishnu?" in the Sri
Guru Granth Sahib Ji...obviously I don't read all of Varma's
postings...but I did ask this question before..and I'm sure I didn't
get any Response...
If it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...it will be like "Maha
Kaal"..meaning the One and only all prevading God..as far as I'm
concerened...not the Devta Vishnu..
Regards,
Jas.
%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*
Jaswinder Singh,(#poet) E-mail- yu10...@yorku.ca j...@interlog.com
POETRY Page-- http://www.interlog.com/~jas/welcome.html/jashome.html
Sikhism Page. http://www.interlog.com/~jas/welcome.html/sikhism.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You sealed my fate, you rolled the dice
You left me helpless, my soul did slice...
My love you bet on, my heart put on ice,
Can anyone love me and give me my life?... Jas. Jan,27,96.
===--------------------------------------------------------------===
To thee I say, whose heart in me rests.
Promise me no promises, actions speak best. Jas..
-------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Tiwari
: N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: : sgh...@iitk.ernet.in wrote:
: : : Does anybody contributing to this thread know who or what is Maha Vishnu?
: : : -sg
: : Just a wild guess. What is Hari. In "Hindu" scriptures, are'nt Hari
: : and Vishnu the same. And also, what is Hari in Hari-mandir. Are
: : there any Sikh scritures, which throw some light on the 'Hari'
: : aspect of the Harimandir.
: Isn't Hari..=God...not Vishnu...Vishnu is NOT ..I repeat
: NOT GOD.... he is just a Devta! as far as Sikh's are concerened.
What about the Shivaa in 'De Shivaa bar Mohey.'
Another Devataa.
Tell me one thing. Why did'nt the Gurus use Devic terms
like Indra, Varun, Soma, Agni, when they were talking
about God (the all pervading One). Why did they rather
pick terms like: Raama, Krishna, Shivaa, Vishnu, Hari,
etc.
Surely, the Gurus WERE aware of the distinction between
the Devataas (Divine, but still not eternal) and the
God (the Eternal One).
Ranjit Mathews USG
and Brahma, Vishnu, etc. have finite, though long lives. I think a day in
the life of Brahma is 365 years, a year is 365 * 365 years and his
lifetime is 100000 * 365 * 365 years. At the end, Mahavishnu restarts the
process. The next time this is scheduled to happen might be after Vishnu
reappears as Kalki.
These are vague recollections and are just meant to give you an idea of
Mahavishnu's role in the scheme of things. I can't remember the exact
details.
h...@strtus.com
And God created everyone...............
--
_______________________________________________________________
If it is sayable, it is within the range of the word.
If it is unsayable, it is outside the steady grasp of mind.
The real is where the sayable and unsayable meet.
What the real truly is, is altogether beyond comprehension.
--Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 340.
________________________________________________________________
The Sikhism Home Page-> http://www.io.org/~sandeep/sikhism1.htm
________________________________________________________________
Mahesh K Mamidi
> If it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...it will be like "Maha
> Kaal"..meaning the One and only all prevading God..as far as I'm
> concerened...not the Devta Vishnu..
>
> Regards,
> Jas.
Don't you guys have anything else to talk to. Come'on man we are
educated and we are fighting about who is god and who is not. Isn't
it the shame. Talk something useful to all netters damn it or else get the
hell out of here. Do you understand me.
Kulbir Singh Bhatia
The expressions Maha Vishnu and Maha Prabhu (Maha Prabhu Chaitanya) for some
reason remind me of consumer products such as Pert and Pert Plus, ABC and ABC
Extra.
regards,
kulbir singh
Jaswinder Singh
Subject: Re: Consecration of Maha Vishnu Idol at Harmandir Sahib:
Historical
Proof!
Rajiv Varma (rva...@stallion.jsums.edu) wrote:
: >
: > Isn't Hari..=God...not Vishnu...Vishnu is NOT ..I repeat
: >NOT GOD.... he is just a Devta! as far as Sikh's are concerened.
: >
: >"Maha" means "all great"... but where is "Maha Vishnu?" in the Sri
: >Guru Granth Sahib Ji...obviously I don't read all of Varma's
: >postings...but I did ask this question before..and I'm sure I
didn't
: >get any Response...
: >
: I did respond, but to Rajwinder, not to you, Jas.
: Again, if in the verse 'banayo ghar Maha bishnoo ko' if Maha Bishnoo
is
: in reference to Ek Onkaar God, then how can Ek Onkaar need a ghar
(house)
: in the middle of the sarovar ???
First answer the question is this verse you state in
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? or Dasam Granth or Bhai Gurdas Ji or Bhai
Nand Lal Ji's bani.. if not..I don't appoint it any credit...
But for argument sake... as you reitterate below, the Gurus
used anologies and symbolism which people couild understand and
follow.
I don't see anything wrong with calling the Golden Temple..
Harmandar Sahib. Yes literally it means the House of God. But you
are ignoring the context in why its called that..
Why was it named the House of God? I can't tell you 100%, but
let me rationalize it to the best of my ability, only the Guru knows
why.
But if one was to be logical about this. The Guru Granth
Sahib Ji is considered the "Shabad form of God"! "Vaaho Vaaho Bani
Nirankar
Hai..." Harmandir Sahib was built to install the Guru Granth Sahib ji
in
its premises by Guru Arjan Dev Ji.
Now you can extrapolate that the naming of Harmandir Sahib Ji
was
due to the effect that the Guru Arjan had complete the Adi Granth, The
Shabad form (Word) of God. He then named the Temple that was to house
this
Treasure, that God gave, as Harmandir Sahib. (The House of God)..
Hence
Harmandir Sahib houses the Word of God, which is the Shabad form of
God.
This is the only logical way I can answer your question, why the Guru
Named
the Golden Temple, Harmandir Sahib. And I'm sure this reasoning is
quite
sound. If you cared to accept it, instead of poking fingers as you
always
have so far.
: Does a Niraakaar God need a house in the middle of the sacred tank?
Read above, the context MUST be taken to consideration.
Do you know the "sacred importance of the place where the Golden
Temple is
built on, going back to the Rishis, Munis and other Bhagats who have
done
Tapasee there?" <just a side note, I remember once my father told me
this
history, but can't give you any details>
: Why is Harimandir Sahib not called a Gurudwara? Why it is a Hari ka
Mandir?
Go back and ask Guru Arjan Dev Ji!;-)
: >
: > If it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...it will be like "Maha
: >Kaal"..meaning the One and only all prevading God..as far as I'm
: >concerened...not the Devta Vishnu..
: >
: IMHO, .... the references to Rama, Krishna, Vishnu, Hari, Bramha,
etc. in
: the Gurbani are not made to the Ek Onkaar, they are there keeping
the
: age-old Hindu tradition of tolerance and acceptability of fellow
panths,
: as all these panths lead to the same summit on the mountain.
True the "devtas" and their avtars, are not Ek Onkaar. But
Majority
of the times where they are in Gurbani, its directly to connote God.
Hari, Murari, Gopal, Gobind, etc..are all used for the one God...
Sikhism
is a faith, which without any ambiguity stresses the worship of One
God. If
you care to look at the first letter of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib
ji..its
the numeral 1.
So never can there be any ambiguity if they had spelt it has " Ik"
which
also means "1"...they wrote it as " 1 On-kaar " to depict that Sikhism
is
Mono-theistic religion, stressing ONE-GOD belief for its desciples,
and not
to go to Devi-Devtes, etc..for anything...but just Ask God DIRECTLY!
not to
his servants...Ram, Krishna, Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu, Matas, etc...
: Let me give you an analogy. Vedantists do not say to the monists or
: qualified monists that you are wrong or your philosophy is
unacceptable.
: They say that "you don't know the higher truth, which we know."
Yours is
: truth too, but ours is higher, and so and so are the reasons.
: Similarly, Gurbani while stressing on the Nirakaar form of God and
saying
: that Ek Onkaar is the higher truth, also recognizes and accepts
other
: forms of worship, e.g. Pauranic devatas and gods, and Rama and
Krishna.
: Again, the Gurus stressed (philosophically) that 'we are telling you
a
: higher truth'; though 'whatever you already know is also true.'
True...what you said there...but these Devy, Devtes, are
unable to
give one Mukti...that only the Supreme One God can...hence once this
was
recognized by the those who served the Devy's..like Guru Angad Ji did
for
many years, and so did Guru Amar Das ji for 60 odd years...once they
learned
the Truth depicted by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they stopped doing "Devy
Pooja",
and began the ultimate practice of worshipping the "One God" and Guru
Nanak
enlightened their souls to that Truth, for He was given it from Birth.
And
once again I tell you, He never learned it from Any Pundit or Brahman.
: When the Gurus attacked false pseudo-brahmanical rituals of their
times
: it was meant for the entire Hindu society, and not just the sikhs.
It
: does not mean that they were attacking the Hindu Gods or attacking
their
: mode of worship. Instead they were saying that you can attain moksha
(or
: mokha) by subscribing to the Ek Onkaar.
Yes they did attack the Hindu way of Worship! Even Bhagat
Kabir Ji did.
Let alone the Gurus. Read the Shabad by Bhagat Kabir Ji..
"Patee tore Malnee Patee Patee Jeeo
Jis Pahan ko Patee Tore So Pahun Neerjeeo",etc...
In this shabad Bhagat Kabir Ji, shuns "idols"...and the false practice
of
Idol worship. And stresses one to attune the "mind" and cleanse it
worshipping the One God, and discard these false rituals.
: [Note that this this quite different from semitic line of thought
which
: says that ours is the only way, and all other ways to reach God are
false.]
Sikhism never says its the only path. It says to Everyone to
Remember the One God, in mind, soul and heart...and meditate on his
name..
and don't undertake false rituals which lead you away from Him.
Regards,
Jas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You sealed my fate, you rolled the dice
You left me helpless, my soul did slice...
My love you bet on, my heart put on ice,
Can you love me dear and give me my life?... Jas. Jan,27,96.
===--------------------------------------------------------------===
To thee I say, whose heart in me rests.
Promise me no promises, actions speak best. Jas & A.H.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Kulbir Singh Bhatia
: Kulbir Singh Bhatia (kbh...@sfu.ca) wrote:
: > The expressions Maha Vishnu and Maha Prabhu (Maha Prabhu Chaitanya) for some
: > regards,
: > kulbir singh
: Mr. Kulbir Singh,
: You seem to be having too many problems with too many things.
Can you kindly cite me where I mentioned that I have a problem with something?
: Scriptures are the basis to know GOD.
: If you don't beleive in them, pl. F.... off. Nobody, gives a damn to
: what sbdy reminds you of ...
I don't recall saying that I don't believe scriptures.
: Regards,
regards,
kulbir singh
: -Srinivas
Srinivas Kotamraju
> The expressions Maha Vishnu and Maha Prabhu (Maha Prabhu Chaitanya) for some
> reason remind me of consumer products such as Pert and Pert Plus, ABC and ABC
> Extra.
> regards,
> kulbir singh
Mr. Kulbir Singh,
You seem to be having too many problems with too many things.
Scriptures are the basis to know GOD.
If you don't beleive in them, pl. F.... off. Nobody, gives a damn to
what sbdy reminds you of ...
Regards,
-Srinivas