Why Jats and Sakas adopted Shiva post 10th century AD?
Kunal Singh
JATOFTHEPANJAB wrote:
> Do you know that Khalsas are Shive Sena and Shri Krishan Baldev Ji was the
> reincarnation of Shiv. Yadevs are the back bone of Shiv and Sachae Paatshah
> Har Gobind Ji started the work of Shiv Shakti and the Sena of Shiv, the
> Yadevs were to be the main fighters.
I have a question for the Jats on this net. Many Jats on this net seem to think
that they are Sakas which I find difficult to believe, then there are some Jats
who seem to think that they are related to Yadavs. Personally, I tend to
believe the latter. This is because their population seems to be too large and
the region they occupy was very much dominated by the Yadav lineages in Puranic
history, northwestern region of India. Their lifestyle also is very similar to
the Yadavs, with an extremely heavy emphasis on not simply farming, but cattle
breeding, milk production etc. The Yadavs have a reputation for being wrestler
types, not everyone is big but they seem to have some physically quite large
members in their castes in the Bihar/UP plains and the Jats also have a similar
reputation in the Punjab. So what is the extent of the proof that the Jats are
actually Sakas ?
gan...@my-dejanews.com
Saurabh Jang <saur...@tako.wwa.com> wrote:
> amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : In the future, please slow down, collect your thoughts, and write them
> : coherently. I can barely comprehend what you've written above.
>
> : Kindly re-express the above ideas into English, and I'll address them.
>
> : About the story of Lord Shiva's hair, I've seen that in several books.
I'm
> : not surprised you don't know the story - after converting to Sikhism, people
> : must have gradually left those stories behind. Still, ask your
grandmother
> : or the oldest person you know - they may know the story.
Prior to fall of Buddhism (9th century AD), Jats and other Sakas
of northwest practised Saka Religion (Sun worship - for good harvests)
mixed with Buddhism of (Sakamuni - the Buddha). All the Saka archeological
sites in northwest (Mathura, Kaithvar, Vidharba, Moga, Patiala, Ropar,
Sialkot, Jalandar, Multan, Peshawar, etc.) show Buddhist-Gandharan
statues, artifacts, temples, etc. Buddhas have been found in central
asian sites and even in Austria where sone Saka tribes settled.
The current "hinduism" practised by Jats and others (Rajputs, Gujars,
etc.) came to norhtwest Sakasthana with Shankarcharya's brahmanical
revival during 9-11th century. Arabs in Sindh as late as 9th century
record Jats practising Buddhism in the 9th century and are called
"warriors of Buddha".
>
> : Can any Hindu Jats confirm/deny what I described?
>
> Our family is mainly Hindu Jat (from U.P.) except for inter-caste marriages in
> the latest generation, and I have heard that story about Lord Shiva and Jat
> origins, but I can't speak to whether most Jats subscribe to that or not.
Reason why Sakas tribes such as Jats, Gujars and Marathas adopted Shiva as
their diety after 10th century AD was because they did not accept Brahmanical
supremacy. Lord Shiva - and ancient Indus God - was unorthodox,
uncontrollable, aggressive and did not cleanly fit into the gangetic-Puranic
theological ideology as a SUBSERVIENT diety!
This icon fit into the Saka and Jat martial cultural character - even though
it was a new borrowed diety and mythology. With the break down of Saka
civilization, institutions, temples, universities, imperial political
control in the post-Gandharan era (500BC-900AD), this is how Jats and
other Sakas sought to maintain their independence and pride against
casteism and growing social and religious Brahmanical influences in the
post 10th century period.
This is all explained in his book by
B. Dehiya, Jats: the Ancient Rulers, 1980.
Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism (11-17th century) offered a revival of
Gandharan spirituality, promoted an anti-casteist social ideology and
rejection of gangetic/malabari Brahmanism. Jats of Punjab were strongly
attracted to both religious movements. In fact, many of the
heads of Sufi Orders in Punjab were good personal friends
of Sikh Gurus. A Sufi Pir (Mian Mir)laid the foundation stone
of the Golden Temple; hyms of 16 Sufis and mystical Bhagats appear
in 1400 pages of Granth sahib; many Punjabi Sufis helped the Sikhs in
clashes with Moguls; and many Sufi Pirs in Punjab were executed by
Aurengzeb.
The 17-19th century Saka political revival is best seen as a revolt and
uprising of the martial Saka tribes seeking political independence and
soverignty from the Mogul-Afghan Hindusthani empire.
Gandasa
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Sandeep Singh Bajwa
> their diety after 10th century AD was because they did not accept Brahmanical
> supremacy. Lord Shiva - and ancient Indus God - was unorthodox,
> uncontrollable, aggressive and did not cleanly fit into the gangetic-Puranic
> theological ideology as a SUBSERVIENT diety!
>
Very famous dance of Punjab called Bhangra was actually started thousand years ago
when
Jats (or farmers) of Punjab in different villages would gather before their harvest,
drink Bhang and dance
Bhang-ra in front of an idol of Shiva. (Bhangra from Bhang).
SO!! There is definetely a connection!!
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
sba...@home.com
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amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Reason why Sakas tribes such as Jats, Gujars and Marathas adopted Shiva as
> their diety after 10th century AD was because they did not accept Brahmanical
> supremacy. Lord Shiva - and ancient Indus God - was unorthodox,
> uncontrollable, aggressive and did not cleanly fit into the gangetic-Puranic
> theological ideology as a SUBSERVIENT diety!
>
> This icon fit into the Saka and Jat martial cultural character - even though
> it was a new borrowed diety and mythology. With the break down of Saka
> civilization, institutions, temples, universities, imperial political
> control in the post-Gandharan era (500BC-900AD), this is how Jats and
> other Sakas sought to maintain their independence and pride against
> casteism and growing social and religious Brahmanical influences in the
> post 10th century period.
>
Sure. Lord Shiva is labelled as "dravidian" when it suits you, and "an
ancient Indus God" when it suits you. Conveniently forgetting that the Indus
culture predates both Aryans and Sakas; it was the pre-Aryan "Dasa" culture
you so despise.
Have some consistency and integrity please (if you're capable). Admit that
Lord Shiva is a DRAVIDIAN God (you've made the claim many times before).
Shaivism was most highly developed in Tamil Nadu. He is represented by the
Lingam, a symbol you often ridicule.
And your comments about Lord Shiva not fitting into gangetic-puranic ideology
are simply idiotic. He is one of the most important Brahminical Gods - and no
one tried to make him subservient, so where is that coming from? Your
understanding of Hinduism, the Brahmanical, Dasa stuff you hate, is distorted,
biased, ignorant, and most of all, not consistent from one post to the next.
One good thing (from my perspective) - the state of affairs in India is SO
different from what you dream about, that I know it must be causing you
unmeasurable frustration. That's a very cheerful thought!
One day Gurupdesh Singh will be a tottering old man living his last days on
this Earth, with high blood pressure, ulcers, and depression (maybe even
schizophrenia) caused by his utter failure to see his fantasies and dreams
ever materialize.
JATOFTHEPANJAB
reincarnation of Shiv. Yadevs are the back bone of Shiv and Sachae Paatshah
Har Gobind Ji started the work of Shiv Shakti and the Sena of Shiv, the
Yadevs were to be the main fighters.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jat of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Sandeep Singh Bajwa wrote in message <367B19B6...@home.com>...
>> Reason why Sakas tribes such as Jats, Gujars and Marathas adopted Shiva
as
>> their diety after 10th century AD was because they did not accept
Brahmanical
>> supremacy. Lord Shiva - and ancient Indus God - was unorthodox,
>> uncontrollable, aggressive and did not cleanly fit into the
gangetic-Puranic
>> theological ideology as a SUBSERVIENT diety!
>>
>
Saurabh Jang
: Sure. Lord Shiva is labelled as "dravidian" when it suits you, and "an
: ancient Indus God" when it suits you. Conveniently forgetting that the Indus
: culture predates both Aryans and Sakas; it was the pre-Aryan "Dasa" culture
: you so despise.
Not to mention the fact that the most important shrines for devotees of Shiva
are in the North. Also not to mention the fact that Kashmiri Hindus
(who Mr. Gurupdesh and Mr. Sandhu would be the last to stereotype as
"Dravidian") are amongst the staunchest devotees of Shiva.
The problem with reading history and sociology with a pre-conceived bias is
that you always try to latch onto those parts which reinforce your biases and
prejudices and discount those which are in contradiction.
So Mr. Gurupdesh might start of with some objective historical fact, and
then he goes on to build a whole superstructure of wishful theories
which when one looks down from these dizzying heights is revealed as
the most flimsy artifice.
But if nothing else, give him credit for reinventing himself and fine
tuning his pet theories all these long years!
Saurabh
Saurabh Jang
: I have a question for the Jats on this net. Many Jats on this net seem to think
: that they are Sakas which I find difficult to believe, then there are some Jats
: who seem to think that they are related to Yadavs. Personally, I tend to
: believe the latter. This is because their population seems to be too large and
: the region they occupy was very much dominated by the Yadav lineages in Puranic
: history, northwestern region of India. Their lifestyle also is very similar to
: the Yadavs, with an extremely heavy emphasis on not simply farming, but cattle
: breeding, milk production etc. The Yadavs have a reputation for being wrestler
: types, not everyone is big but they seem to have some physically quite large
: members in their castes in the Bihar/UP plains and the Jats also have a similar
: reputation in the Punjab. So what is the extent of the proof that the Jats are
: actually Sakas ?
It is wrong to equate any caste with just being Sakas, because they themselves
were diverse, and most historians agree that castes such as Yadavs, Rajputs,
Jats, Ahir, and Gujjar are descendants of the Sakas, Kushanas,
White Huns, Indo-Greeks and the myriad peoples who were then resident in
Northwestern India.
Saurabh
JATOFTHEPANJAB
Jats are of Yadev Bans as one of the Yadev in the name of Vir Bhaddar was
honoured by Shiv to be his head Hair Locks, called "JATT". Vir Bhaddar's
people then took on "JATT" as AL and it became a "tribe" of the people of
Vir Bhaddar.
Now, if you remember the story that after Yadevs had the victory over the
Kairos, Lord Krishna told them that Kal Yug is around the corner in which
the things will happen against the moral laws of humanity. Then the Yadev
boasted how the hell under our reign then will happen against the moral
laws? But Shri Krishan Baldev Ji said, that is the way in the Kal Yug.
Then the Yadev left for the Shivalik Hills awaiting the arrival of Shri
Krishan Baldev Ji, fondly called "Gobinda", in the form of Sachae Paatshah
Gobind Rai Ji to organise the Yadevs into Khalsa Panth to see that
righteousness prevails. Over 70 percent Khalsas were of Jatt stock, next
were Tarkhan, Lohaar, Chohrrae, Chamiyaar, Chhembae, Nai, etc and the least
were Khatris, who mostly played the part of Satan.
So, Yadevs are Shiv Sena of Shri Krishan Baldev Ji, whose Kal Yug ROOP was
Sachae Paatshah Gobind Singh Ji.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jat of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Kunal Singh wrote in message <367B2AEA...@dti.net>...
>
>
>JATOFTHEPANJAB wrote:
>
>> Do you know that Khalsas are Shive Sena and Shri Krishan Baldev Ji was
the
>> reincarnation of Shiv. Yadevs are the back bone of Shiv and Sachae
Paatshah
>> Har Gobind Ji started the work of Shiv Shakti and the Sena of Shiv, the
>> Yadevs were to be the main fighters.
>
Kunal Singh
> Saurabh Jang wrote:
>
> > In soc.culture.indian amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > : Sure. Lord Shiva is labelled as "dravidian" when it suits you, and "an
> > : ancient Indus God" when it suits you. Conveniently forgetting that the Indus
> > : culture predates both Aryans and Sakas; it was the pre-Aryan "Dasa" culture
> > : you so despise.
> >
> > Not to mention the fact that the most important shrines for devotees of Shiva
> > are in the North. Also not to mention the fact that Kashmiri Hindus
> > (who Mr. Gurupdesh and Mr. Sandhu would be the last to stereotype as
> > "Dravidian") are amongst the staunchest devotees of Shiva.
>
> In Amritsar City itself there are more then 30+ temples for Shiva and are called
> Shivalas!!
>
> It is all over the Punjabi cities!! North indians are more followers of Shiva then
> South Indians there
> is no doubt about it!!
Shaivite practice being a common feature of the north has less to do with the "northern
people vs the southern people" and more to do with the Himalayas. Even yogis from
Tamilnadu come to the Himalayas, for obvious reasons, the mountains are higher and for
certain yogic practices, the mountain climate is extremely helpful.
Thus it would be natural for some of the yogic practices to rub off in the northern
regions, due to contact with the yogis in the region from all parts of Bharat. And
going by Shaivite legends, Shiva moved from his home in Kailasa in the Himalayas to
Kasi and made it his new home. It almost seems that mount Kailasa was formerly the
gathering ground for the yogis and given its suspected location, it would be rather
difficult to get to for anyone else. It is interesting that the Shaivites used Kasi as
a base to spread their beliefs, as the legends say that Shiva and Parvati made Kasi
their home so that they could stay in one place and let their "children" do the
"wandering." The first Shaivite conflicts with Brahmins occurs in the foothills of the
Himalayas where yogis would naturally come down to defeat the Brahmins thus far
obsessed with the deity of Indra (senses) and Vishnu (balance).
The Brahmins who were obsessed with studying the senses would be forced to eventually
accept that which cannot be perceived by the senses, or the "unmanifest." And as the
yogis repeatedly would prove to them that their practices gave them capabilities far
beyond the control of their senses, the practices of yoga would be slowly formalized
from those known only to a group of ascetics wandering in the mountains to entering
mainstream society. This struggle seems to be the subject of several legends. Indra
vs Vrtra (Devas need to study adamantine bones and veins/arteries of a sage to defeat
Vrtra who is eventually defeated by foam, apparently the discussion seems to be about
hardness/softness and the Shaivite sage had acquired a hardened body before proceeding
to samadhi leaving his body to the followers of the Devas for examination). Daksha vs
Shiva again introduces the proof of yogic samadhi where Sati casts off her body to
prove the supremacy of her lord Shiva. But once she does so, her followers are told by
the presiding Vaishnava Bhrigu that she had died due to the smoke (Bhrigu brings forth
many demons from the sacred fire and Sati's body had been consumed by fire, almost
reminiscient of the yogi who gave up his body when taken by the Greeks, on a bonfire).
Interestingly, even in China, once Da Mo, by modern scholars considered to be a
Kshatriya rather than Brahmin from the south, brings this same knowledge to China. And
one Chinese manuscripts expresses surprise that the practices seem to give
"supernatural" powers. Since then there have been many Chinese martial artists and who
still exist today who claim to develop adamantine bones, externalization of prana to
cause damage without touching from a short distance, or even disabling a person from a
short distance.
This seems to be a common theme in yogic history. In Hinduism yoga rises as Shaivism.
In Buddhism yoga rises as Yogachara of Vasubandhu, and in China it finds its way into
Taoism, Taoist yoga being extremely similar to Kundalini. What is interesting about
all these accounts is that initially nobody believes the effects of yoga, and
eventually everyone is forced to accept it. As far as I known only Hinduism seem to
have the concept of "samadhi." And Hindu Shaivite legends, particularly those of the
northern Himalayas are extremely interesting as they provide far greater detail, almost
meant as hints for would be yogis as to place and practice etc.
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
Saurabh Jang wrote:
> In soc.culture.indian amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : Sure. Lord Shiva is labelled as "dravidian" when it suits you, and "an
> : ancient Indus God" when it suits you. Conveniently forgetting that the Indus
> : culture predates both Aryans and Sakas; it was the pre-Aryan "Dasa" culture
> : you so despise.
>
> Not to mention the fact that the most important shrines for devotees of Shiva
> are in the North. Also not to mention the fact that Kashmiri Hindus
> (who Mr. Gurupdesh and Mr. Sandhu would be the last to stereotype as
> "Dravidian") are amongst the staunchest devotees of Shiva.
In Amritsar City itself there are more then 30+ temples for Shiva and are called
Shivalas!!
It is all over the Punjabi cities!! North indians are more followers of Shiva then
South Indians there
is no doubt about it!!
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
>
>
> The problem with reading history and sociology with a pre-conceived bias is
> that you always try to latch onto those parts which reinforce your biases and
> prejudices and discount those which are in contradiction.
>
> So Mr. Gurupdesh might start of with some objective historical fact, and
> then he goes on to build a whole superstructure of wishful theories
> which when one looks down from these dizzying heights is revealed as
> the most flimsy artifice.
>
> But if nothing else, give him credit for reinventing himself and fine
> tuning his pet theories all these long years!
>
> Saurabh
--
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
sba...@home.com wrote:
>
>
> In Amritsar City itself there are more then 30+ temples for Shiva and are
called
> Shivalas!!
>
> It is all over the Punjabi cities!! North indians are more followers of Shiva
then
> South Indians there
> is no doubt about it!!
>
The worship of Lord Shiva is strong across the whole country. Of course in
the north the famous Amarnath cave temple of Kashmir, as well as most other
Kashmiri temples, are Shiv Mandirs. The famous mandir in Benaras is a Shiv
Mandir (Benaras also called Shiva's City). The temple in Somnath, Gujarat,
which Ghazni destroyed 17 times is (and was) a Shiv Mandir. The Ellora
caves' most famous temple is another one. The biggest temple in Khajaraho,
MP, is a Shiv Mandir. And in the South, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu have many
ancient, enormous, and elaborate Shiv Mandirs.
The Hindu religion and culture, inspite of the naysayers, shows astounding
commonality across the regions that make up India. People in Kashmir knew
the same epics, revered the same scriptures, did similar rituals to people in
Bengal or Kerala. All the more impressive when you consider that these
regions are populated by diverse ethnic groups, languages, and have divergent
histories; also, this commonality exists even though HInduism lacked a strong
missionary or conversion zeal, and is more amazing when you consider the lack
of any central HIndu organization or dogma, and any effective means to spread
the religion - it occured organically, and is what binds all Hindus together.
(Not to deny the very real differences across regions either - a beautiful
diversity, with much common underlying principles and structure).
Mo
putting out it seems that it was Buddhism which was spread
by the sword and that it was Hinduism or Paganism which
gradually came back..
Mo
-Krishna like to lecture and set impossible standards mof
detachment from emotions , and the story of Rama is a good
yarn , only Shiva encourages humans to be active and learn
by their own efforts . He is supposed to have brought Yoga
and the knowledge of dance -nrityum to humans.
Women like him too , because the cobra round his neck and
the third eye which when he opens it destroys the Universe
to start again every 400 yugas ( 40b years) , gives him a
hint of supressed power ..
Kulbir Singh
Raghu Seshadri (sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
: amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: :
: : The worship of Lord Shiva is strong across the whole country. Of course in
: : the north the famous Amarnath cave temple of Kashmir, as well as most other
: : Kashmiri temples, are Shiv Mandirs. The famous mandir in Benaras is a Shiv
: : Mandir (Benaras also called Shiva's City). The temple in Somnath, Gujarat,
: : which Ghazni destroyed 17 times is (and was) a Shiv Mandir. The Ellora
: : caves' most famous temple is another one. The biggest temple in Khajaraho,
: : MP, is a Shiv Mandir. And in the South, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu have many
: : ancient, enormous, and elaborate Shiv Mandirs.
: Others are welcome to add to the list.
: his Ashtapadi in Orissa. It was recited in the Puri
: temple at the instance of the king of Puri. Within
: six months (!) it was studied and accepted for daily
: chanting at the Vishnu temple at Rameshwaram, a distance
: of thousand miles, and probably 15 kingdoms away !
: Underneath the political fractures, it was a culture
: with several uniting strands.
It still is. Even now we can see the glorious strands of
cultural unity in all their majesticity. For instance if
a mob attacks unarmed civilians in Delhi, other places
are quick to follow the lead.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: RS
Mo
> Even now we can see the glorious strands of
cultural unity in all their majesticity. For instance if
a mob attacks unarmed civilians in Delhi, other places
are quick to follow the lead.<
clean shaven Sikhs off buses and shooting them ?..