IIT's Terrible Treatment to Tribal Girl
Madhu
It is possible somehow that she was discrimanated against because she was
tribal, it is also possible that this was not the case and this has just
become another issue to be used by politicians. Logically, the second option
seems to be more possible.
The point to be noted here is that nobody will end up actually looking at
the process of evaluation and seeing whether such a thing could happen or
not. Even the concerned officials can't make a simple statement about the
transparency of the system, most probably because it is not transparent! The
mistake really lies here that none of the systems in place in India which
control most of people's lives are in any way transparent or rational or
understandable. So anybody can level any kind of allegations against the
system and get away with it because people will actually believe them. Even
here, what eventually happened seems to be a subversion of the system where
the girl wrote some kind of fake re-exam(only she passed, who were the other
people who wrote this and on what basis were they selected) and got through.
No official can really say whether this is allowed or even justified.
To solve problems of these kind, what's really needed is a non-political
person at the head who has some integrity and courage. It would be wrong for
us to just focus on the merits of this individual case, but instead consider
the failures of the system which leads to such situations
Madhu
"Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote in message
news:RoBk5.1787$3M.5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> People who call her a tribal girl fail to point out that her father is a
> junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they are trying
to
> paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to succeed.
>
> I am not able to understand how they said that she was deliberately failed
> in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a student's
> identity is not available just by looking at the answer sheet. Then how
> could the evaluator have known that it is the tribal girl. Oh I see.
Exam
> evaluators are clairevoyents. "Hmm .... roll number 87877665, this must be
> Sujee .... let us fail her because she is a tribal girl." Imagine that
:-)
>
> JEE is a tough exam. If someone scores great in other exams, it does not
> guarantee that the person will score well in JEE too. I used to be very
> proud that even IIT Professors' kids had to struggle to get through JEE
and
> many did not go through. While professors are still maintaining their
> respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians are involved. Like
> everything they get involved in, they will ruin the process.
>
> When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant process, IIT
> standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up speed.
What
> next? Chief Minister's quota for JEE?
>
> Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in competition
> in India. Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure. Even if they
> fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are special people, who
don't
> need to show as much talent as others to get into IIT.
>
> LC
>
> Madhu <madh...@no-spam-pls.yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8muj1h$lo2$1...@newsie.singa.pore.net...
> > Don't you think the case might be that she really did fail the first
time
> > around, and because it became a political issue IIT had to backtrack and
> > create a second chance for her.
> > Sometimes, I think that you have to just trust the system
> >
>
>
>
lig
I am pretty new to the News Group for,by & of Indians.
Consider such a scenario. For over 1000 years , education as a niche area
was cornered by a few privileged ass holes called Brahmins.Convinently comes
in caste system. Real handy you know. They keep raping the system to such a
thorough degree that after a 1000 years , IIT becomes Iyerengars(Iyers &
Iyengars, bloody Brahmins) Institute of Technology. The system, not just
education , Technology,Law,Government , name anything you can think of, is
flooded with such creatures.
Reservation has come in for 40 years now .The fruits of this correction
process would be seen not immediately. Assholes , it will take 100 years.
Thats all what nation building is about.Politics will play a part.That's the
excuse to set things in order.Else , there can be no beginning at all.
Did you see the movie ' Missisipi Burning' . after so much injustice , the
perpeterators of the crime are all handed suspended sentence , because , the
Judge(read administrators of Justice) were Whites. The same thing is
happenning to India now. People in position of power are all Brahmins and
they are seeing their hold eroded.
I can still see the so called upper caste people , when they cross villages
, they say, "cheri" , refering to the hutments.Remember Dravidians are a
much superior race , compared to Aryans.
While I am not conversant with the IIT system and indeed disagree with the
selective re-examination of 5 students as mentioned in this thread , the
case should be thoroughly investigated and the erring official/examiner shd
be castrated.Lets not forget that the examiner could be from the lower caste
as well.After all oppurtunity doesn't knock often in India.
Give them a continuous chance for 100 years .Please keep in mind that you
upper castes have raped the very same system inside out for more than a
thousand years.
Hello Sunil, I am with you.
Lig
"Ravi Iyengar" <yourdestin...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:15a2d980...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com...
| "Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote:
| >People who call her a tribal girl fail to point out that her
| father is a
| >junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they
| are trying to
| >paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to
| succeed.
|
| Well said Lone, she should have been leading a far more
| comfortable life than many of lower strata of "higher caste" ...
| but all these people see is what her caste is and look for a
| reason to cry fowl. of course they also talk of equality, when
| they themselves dont seem to be really for it as they will lose
| a lot. imagine a father a junior exec, mom possibly something
| equivalent, still some people here labelling her a tribal girl.
|
|
| >in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a
| student's
| >identity is not available just by looking at the answer sheet.
|
| I think the article is not worded properly. You dont know which
| subject you failed in JEE exams. There is no such thing. She was
| a prep student [some reservation candidates who do *really
| badly* are trained (in a prep course in IITM) for 1 year so that
| the quota for each year can be filled up ... some quota seats
| dont get filled but they have to be! so pick up the next few and
| put them through a prep course for 1 year to bring them to some
| level. they still cry fowl and talk of terrible treatment] ...
| she must have failed the Physics exam in the prep course.
|
| >While professors are still maintaining their
| >respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians are
| involved.
|
| yeah, this is really sad.
|
| >When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant
| process, IIT
| >standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up
| speed.
|
| No clue about IITG. But then some really good things are also
| happening. check out www.iitbabinitio.org.
|
|
|
| >Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in
| competition
| >in India. Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure.
| Even if they
| >fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are special
| people, who don't
| >need to show as much talent as others to get into IIT.
|
| couldn't have put it better.
|
| cheers,
| ravi
|
|
| -----------------------------------------------------------
|
| Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
| Up to 100 minutes free!
| http://www.keen.com
|
Romanize
>Consider such a scenario. For over 1000 years , education as a niche
>area was cornered by a few privileged ass holes called Brahmins.
What these assholes were doing with this niche education for over 1000
years, getting Mughals and their predecessors perform shraaddha in
Gaya, or performing their last rites on MaNikarNikaa GhaaT in Varanasi ?
>Convinently comes in caste system. Real handy you know. They keep
>raping the system to such a thorough degree that after a 1000 years ,
>IIT becomes Iyerengars(Iyers & Iyengars, bloody Brahmins) Institute of
>Technology.
Oh I see they were preparing for JEE examinations.
--
Let k t p represent vowel A in them.
http://www.eurosys.net/gujarati
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Visu
"lig" <lignite...@oceanfree.net.nospamm> wrote:
> Hi All :
>
> I am pretty new to the News Group for,by & of Indians.
>
area
comes
> in caste system. Real handy you know. They keep raping the system to
such a
> thorough degree that after a 1000 years , IIT becomes Iyerengars(Iyers
&
Why not a vasectomy? It's Cheaper and less messy?
Do you prescribe the bobbit for all erring officials?
Why did you determine it was a man?
What if it was a woman who erred ?
How would you punish her ?
Since, technically, no one could do a bobbit on her, would she be let
off on a technicality?
> as well.After all oppurtunity doesn't knock often in India.
>
> Give them a continuous chance for 100 years .Please keep in mind that
you
> upper castes have raped the very same system inside out for more than
a
> thousand years.
>
> Hello Sunil, I am with you.
>
> Lig
>
< snipped >
lig
| Why not a vasectomy? It's Cheaper and less messy?
undertaken.It takes a himalayan effort and one has to fight against so many
odds.The system is heavily biased in favour of the HAVES(read Brahmins) .
People are trying to climb through reservations etc.No room for error.You
are indeed killing a child before it is born.
| Do you prescribe the bobbit for all erring officials?
YES.Justice delayed is justice denied.May be look for a solution within the
system.Some civilised means.But hit him hard.
| Why did you determine it was a man?
Good question.
| What if it was a woman who erred ?
| How would you punish her ?
Yes.Equality in the practice and delivery of justice.
| Since, technically, no one could do a bobbit on her, would she be let
| off on a technicality?
|
"Visu" <vi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8n66n0$2jt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
girish potti
Calling assholes through e-mails is not exactly chivalrous.Bend your
knees and look in between ur legs and u can see urs.
If you want to talk about issues talk logically to the point.Giving vent
to ur anger in this manner is paramount to having no argument.
Caste system is never justified and is def a slur in India's Tradition.
If it should be rectified it should be done in an intelligent way.This
so called tribal girl does she deserve any reservation? Her father is an
executive and if she fared badly that's because she saw 2 serials more
than the upper caste fellow and not due to lack of oppurtunity.Reservation
should be given to the really poor backward community people She is
obviously taking away their chances also.
If some Iyengers are doing well(I am not an iyengar) it's due to their
industriousness and should be admired and not called assholes .I am
definite u are also from a well to do backward family and were fortunate
to have got thru professional college(irrespective of wasting your time
going unsuccessfully after girls) thru reservation.
Be always pragmatic and don't talk rubbish
Girish
Visu
<Pine.GSO.4.03.100081...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU>,
girish potti <po...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU> wrote:
> Hello,
> Calling assholes through e-mails is not exactly chivalrous.Bend your
> knees and look in between ur legs and u can see urs.
> If you want to talk about issues talk logically to the point.Giving
vent
> to ur anger in this manner is paramount to having no argument.
> Caste system is never justified and is def a slur in India's
Tradition.
> If it should be rectified it should be done in an intelligent way.This
> so called tribal girl does she deserve any reservation? Her father is
an
> executive and if she fared badly that's because she saw 2 serials more
> than the upper caste fellow and not due to lack of
the examiner off. We still don't know who is/was guilty?
If the IIT was right in denying her admission. They would have stuck by
their decision. There was really something fishy and thats why the IIT
had to use the face saving solution. There must be an enquiry. Somebody
must go out - either the girl or the examiner.
The girl used the existing system. She did not cheat.
There was a rumour in the IIT itself about the examiner not liking the
girl because she was too smart to his liking.
It's time to make the process more open. When it's more open there is
less chances for personal likes and dislikes to affect others.
oppurtunity.Reservation
> should be given to the really poor backward community people She is
> obviously taking away their chances also.
Again, she used the existing system.
> If some Iyengers are doing well(I am not an iyengar) it's due to their
> industriousness and should be admired and not called assholes .I am
> definite u are also from a well to do backward family and were
fortunate
> to have got thru professional college(irrespective of wasting your
time
> going unsuccessfully after girls) thru reservation.
You are doing the same. You are calling him names which you feel is
derogatory to him!
> Be always pragmatic and don't talk rubbish
In other words "Dear Kettle you are black! Yours truly - Pot."
:)
> Girish
girish potti
I am not saying everything went fair or not.There is no need to bring
caste in here.Is there? That person must have thought she is too good and
not too good a tribal!!!( there is no way he can know by her rollno)...
Calling him names was never my intention.I just wanted to say what sort of
people this reservation has benifitted.The real poor dalits are still
downtrodden not knowing what is happening or what hit them.They are just
vote banks for politicians......nothing else..If reservation really needs
to have effect then these elite dalits should be denied these "special"
opputunities.
Bye
Girish
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Visu wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.4.03.100081...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU>,
> girish potti <po...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Calling assholes through e-mails is not exactly chivalrous.Bend your
> > knees and look in between ur legs and u can see urs.
> > If you want to talk about issues talk logically to the point.Giving
> vent
> > to ur anger in this manner is paramount to having no argument.
> > Caste system is never justified and is def a slur in India's
> Tradition.
> > If it should be rectified it should be done in an intelligent way.This
> > so called tribal girl does she deserve any reservation? Her father is
> an
> > executive and if she fared badly that's because she saw 2 serials more
> > than the upper caste fellow and not due to lack of
> You are assuming that the girl fared badly. You have judged her and let
> the examiner off. We still don't know who is/was guilty?
> If the IIT was right in denying her admission. They would have stuck by
> their decision. There was really something fishy and thats why the IIT
> had to use the face saving solution. There must be an enquiry. Somebody
> must go out - either the girl or the examiner.
>
> The girl used the existing system. She did not cheat.
> There was a rumour in the IIT itself about the examiner not liking the
> girl because she was too smart to his liking.
> It's time to make the process more open. When it's more open there is
> less chances for personal likes and dislikes to affect others.
> oppurtunity.Reservation
> > should be given to the really poor backward community people She is
> > obviously taking away their chances also.
> Again, she used the existing system.
> > If some Iyengers are doing well(I am not an iyengar) it's due to their
> > industriousness and should be admired and not called assholes .I am
> > definite u are also from a well to do backward family and were
> fortunate
> > to have got thru professional college(irrespective of wasting your
> time
> > going unsuccessfully after girls) thru reservation.
>
> You are doing the same. You are calling him names which you feel is
> derogatory to him!
>
> > Be always pragmatic and don't talk rubbish
>
Lone Coder
Sunil <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3992FB7C...@hotmail.com...
> Reservation system has caused unfairness but you have to realize that it
> is the result of the deeds done by your ancestors. You are unfortunately
> paying for that. If you look at the bigger picture, it is a kind of a
> payback. Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer in
> future. Maybe that will shake up some people who have become very
> complacent and bring about a social change removing casteism and change
> in people mindsets.
Sunil, no denying that atrocities were done in the past. But I don't agree
that reservation system is the right cure. It attempts to correct a wrong
by doing another wrong.
Moreover, after a family has been brought to main stream through reservation
system, their children don't deserve special treatment. A child, growing in
a middle class educated (albeit dalit) family gets equal opportunities as
another child in the same society. So assuming that a family was benefited
ONCE by reservation system and has pulled themselves to the main stream, why
then their children be entitled for reservation?
If my assumption is incorrect, that will prove that reservation system did
not help. So why continue with something that is so unfair and does not
serve its purpose.
>
> You classify them a special people. They are special, as they were
> forcibly denied education for 3000 years by brahministic syste.. Now
> when they are trying to come up, you guys try to treat them as martians.
> There is nothing unusual happening here. When you feel bad, just curse
> your ancestors. That will make you feel better.
Well, this still does not explain why a person scoring less marks should be
allowed to become a doctor or an engineer. When a doctor opens up a tummy
and botches up an operation, we should forgive him because brahmins did
atrocities to the doctor's ancestors. "Gee ... I mishandled the patient and
he died. Well, his great great great great great ancestor did something
bad to my g g g g g ancestor. So this must be OK. Bring on the next
patient guys.'. Or 'Oh I see, you have to Multiply by factor of safety,
uh oh ... I divided ... what ? 20 villages are washed up due to a burst dam
... well, why did their gggggggg ancestor trouble my ggggggg ancestor?'
I do understand that there are people who have beel left behind and the
society must bring them to the main stream. I disagree with the method.
Prep schools, extra tutuios, fee waivers, free books and tuition,
scholarships are some tools by which the gap can be lowered. Admissions to
higher learning institutes despite getting less marks in the exam, is not a
good way to bring equality.
Sulin, since you are a dalit, you would not agree to anything I said here.
But that is how I see it.
LC (A frustrated but proud Brahmin)
>
> Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Sunil
Everybody should be proud of who and what they are but just not at other's
expense.
Please see my response below.
Lone Coder wrote:
> Sunil <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3992FB7C...@hotmail.com...
> > Reservation system has caused unfairness but you have to realize that it
> > is the result of the deeds done by your ancestors. You are unfortunately
> > paying for that. If you look at the bigger picture, it is a kind of a
> > payback. Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer in
> > future. Maybe that will shake up some people who have become very
> > complacent and bring about a social change removing casteism and change
> > in people mindsets.
>
> Sunil, no denying that atrocities were done in the past. But I don't agree
> that reservation system is the right cure. It attempts to correct a wrong
> by doing another wrong.
>
Aggreed ! It is not a cure. It was done at a time where education was a dire
need of the dalit community. Unfortunatelyy, along with the this system, there
was no genuine attempt by govenments, politicians to root out the problem at the
social level. The reservation system like any other such system has posioned the
minds of higher castes more. They unfortunately fail to look at the situation in
different light. It is an effort to bring everybody at par. Unless a social
change comes in the people mindsets India will never have peace.
I being a dalit, have seen some misuses of this system. Many guys whose parents
were to be IAS, IPS used to fool around and myself used to survive on my
father's minimal money, he used to send me. There are bad apples but
unfortunately that's what people see. They spent 10 years in universiy and I
came out in 4 years with honours. So such people who don't deserve it don't
reach very far anyway.
>
> Moreover, after a family has been brought to main stream through reservation
> system, their children don't deserve special treatment. A child, growing in
> a middle class educated (albeit dalit) family gets equal opportunities as
> another child in the same society. So assuming that a family was benefited
> ONCE by reservation system and has pulled themselves to the main stream, why
> then their children be entitled for reservation?
That is the argument of most of the people who are not dalits. Logically, it
seems to be so plausible. But the concern is that in society today, you don't
look at a dalit as a rich or poor human being; you look at him/her a dalit
(irrespective of the fact whether he/she is rich or poor). Thats where the whole
difference lies. So there is a great possibility of systemic discrimination
everywhere. That's why feel mindset change is very important.
>
>
> If my assumption is incorrect, that will prove that reservation system did
> not help. So why continue with something that is so unfair and does not
> serve its purpose.
>
> >
> > You classify them a special people. They are special, as they were
> > forcibly denied education for 3000 years by brahministic syste.. Now
> > when they are trying to come up, you guys try to treat them as martians.
> > There is nothing unusual happening here. When you feel bad, just curse
> > your ancestors. That will make you feel better.
>
> Well, this still does not explain why a person scoring less marks should be
> allowed to become a doctor or an engineer. When a doctor opens up a tummy
> and botches up an operation, we should forgive him because brahmins did
> atrocities to the doctor's ancestors. "Gee ... I mishandled the patient and
> he died. Well, his great great great great great ancestor did something
> bad to my g g g g g ancestor. So this must be OK. Bring on the next
> patient guys.'. Or 'Oh I see, you have to Multiply by factor of safety,
> uh oh ... I divided ... what ? 20 villages are washed up due to a burst dam
> ... well, why did their gggggggg ancestor trouble my ggggggg ancestor?'
>
> I do understand that there are people who have beel left behind and the
> society must bring them to the main stream. I disagree with the method.
> Prep schools, extra tutuios, fee waivers, free books and tuition,
> scholarships are some tools by which the gap can be lowered. Admissions to
> higher learning institutes despite getting less marks in the exam, is not a
> good way to bring equality.
>
Well, friend, I aggree that a doctor or engineer may get admission based on
reservation but during the four-five years of the study it is persoanl calibre
or intelligence whcih gets him/her through. So a question of good or bad doesn't
rise here. Of course, there are toppers in every field of education and there
are failures. if a dalit fails in university you can't blame the system (unless
he is failed deliberately). So its not that bad as you think. There are some
very brilliant dalit doctors in UK and US and Ireland. There is no reservation
here.
btw, how many botched up operations and fallen bridges you have seen because
dalits operated on them or they were built by dalits? I guess none !
>
> Sulin, since you are a dalit, you would not agree to anything I said here.
> But that is how I see it.
>
It ain't so, my friend.
>
> LC (A frustrated but proud Brahmin)
Can you gauge my frustration. I am still proud despite that :-).
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Lone Coder
botch your name (as Sulin) in my response. And I do take back the last
sentence that you would not agree with me. Obviously you have a balanced
view of the situation.
> That is the argument of most of the people who are not dalits. Logically,
it
> seems to be so plausible. But the concern is that in society today, you
don't
> look at a dalit as a rich or poor human being; you look at him/her a dalit
> (irrespective of the fact whether he/she is rich or poor). Thats where the
whole
> difference lies. So there is a great possibility of systemic
discrimination
> everywhere. That's why feel mindset change is very important.
Our generation started out on a cast agnostic platform. We were lucky that
the disadvantages of caste system based on birth, were out in the open.
Thanks to Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Ambedkar, many (not all) people had
realized that an accident of birth did not make one better or worse than
anyone else. When I was growing up, there was no caste issue. Yes, once in
a while very old people sometimes would say that a particular boy was a
'Kunbi' or 'Shimpi'. Our natural response was 'How does it make him
different? ... he is my friend and it ain't gonna make a difference'. It
never did until we all reached college. That is when the ghost of
reservation system cast its shadow.
Policy of assistance based on 'Accident of birth' has hurt both the sides.
Dalits have been hurt because even today there are people who would look
down upon them. Even though you passed your engineering in 4 years, many
people, by default, would count you among those who took 10 years. Other
castes have been hurt because of reservation system. I had a very poor
friend in second year engineering who was a Bengali Brahmin. He could not
afford to buy a calculator. He deserved the help but did not get it because
he was a Brahmin. Had he been born a dalit, he would have got the
scholarship and calculator etc. You are right about politicians tarnishing
the otherwise noble crusade. Intentions were right, implementation has
divided the society.
> btw, how many botched up operations and fallen bridges you have seen
because
> dalits operated on them or they were built by dalits? I guess none !
I can grant you that albeit grudgingly because I have not personally seen
anything. That does not mean it has not happend, or it can not happen. I
still believe that a career built on a weak foundation can make dangerous
doctors, and engineers. There is no study which goes into this issue so one
can't defenitively say this way or that way. Moreover, a large number of
bridges fall due to corrupt engineers than incompetant ones. But that is
another caste agnostic issue :-)
Anyways, it was nice discussion. I will take off because of an impending
deadline. Rest assured that despite the negative reservation system, I do
not evaluate persons on their accident of birth. Nor do any of my numerous
friends. We all have littlebit of frustration because of bad implementation
(reservation system), but we all know that no one is a lesser human, or on
the same token better human based on birth. We value people on what they do
and what they are as human.
LC (Still frustrated and still proud Indian)
Vib...@yahoo.com
"Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote:
>
> Sunil <su...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3992FB7C...@hotmail.com...
> > Reservation system has caused unfairness but you have to realize
that it
> > is the result of the deeds done by your ancestors. You are
unfortunately
> > paying for that. If you look at the bigger picture, it is a kind of
a
> > payback. Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer
in
> > future. Maybe that will shake up some people who have become very
> > complacent and bring about a social change removing casteism and
change
> > in people mindsets.
>
> Sunil, no denying that atrocities were done in the past. But I don't
agree
> that reservation system is the right cure. It attempts to correct a
wrong
> by doing another wrong.
>
reservation
> system, their children don't deserve special treatment. A child,
growing in
> a middle class educated (albeit dalit) family gets equal opportunities
as
> another child in the same society. So assuming that a family was
benefited
> ONCE by reservation system and has pulled themselves to the main
stream, why
> then their children be entitled for reservation?
>
Another similar argument against reservation I have come across is: "If
the parents are rich, or hold high position of power, or are ministers,
etc. then such candidates should not be given the advantage of
reservation".
Here is my 2 cents:
Economic situation is not the correct yardstick to decide if a candidate
is on equal par with the so-called privileged class. We need to create
equality in almost all respects: opportunity is just one of them. In
addition, family background, environment, network of friends and family
etc. all play a role. Let me briefly elaborate on each:
Opportunity: This is probably the most important thing. Reservation
is providing it.
Family Background: The mind set of all members in a *truly* educated
family (including the mother, father, siblings, *grand parents*,
*uncles*, *aunts* etc) is that a child must study and be educated
to succeed in life. The child grows in such an environment and so
studying is natural. In a family where, let's say, the father alone
is educated because he got a reservation seat, and became a
Sr. Engineer due to reservation, money is not a problem. There is
lots of it. BUT what is lacking is the mind set that education is
the most important thing, even more than money, power, position,
whatever. The one or two educated persons in the family may not
even have the time or energy to instill the importance of education.
The mother who spends more time with the child may simply take
the easy route, and may, for example let the child skip classes,
not reprimand if the child does not do the homework, etc. Worst,
she cannot help the child with school work as she herself is
uneducated. Uncles, aunts, maybe similar to her. Grandparents are
out of question.
When education was confined to a specific few, it created generation
and generation of families who do not know the importance of
education. A child growing up in such a family is at a disadvantage
compared to one growing up in a *truly* educated family.
Environment: I have seen children grow up in film-stars' families.
They have all the riches of the world. Still, they cannot pass even
10th standard. Why? All they see day in and out is filmy things.
They may become very good in the field of acting/producing/directing
films etc. But educated? Most probably not. Of course, if you look
at the immediate future, that is fine too because there is lots of
money to be made (which is ultimately what we all strive for by
education or otherwise). But opportunity? Limited. What is wrong
with basket ball or any sports? Same thing: not all can become
Michael Jordan. But what does the family which has seen only sports
do to the child? They let the child practice more and more basket
ball, hoping that he/she will become a super-star. But the
opportunity and time to study is lost, and soon the child grows
good at nothing except, maybe a little bit of basket ball....which
is not as useful as a good education!
Network of Friends and Family: This is again very important. Many
times especially in India, jobs are gotten because you know someone
somewhere. If there is a job available, more likely, the person
involved will call someone he/she knows, who, more likely will be
his relative. If you do not know someone at the right place, you
do not have the network necessary to grow up. Specifically, while
studying, without a network of educated family/friends, you will
not have access to good advise on course work, or free access to
books/documents etc. Of course libraries are there. But I said
*free* access. Think about it.
Of course, a chaprasi will bring his son/nephew as the next
chaprasi. This is not the network I am interested.
My point is, while reservation is providing the opportunity, it still
has to go long way to achieve its goal of creating on-par environment
with the haves. It has to undo what was done over centuries, and 53
years is not enough. BUT, one thing is certain: the urge to succeed
and be educated has to come not from the government, but from the so
called downtrodden. Until the time they are relaxed because the
reservation system will help them any way, we cannot hope to undo
the curse of the caste system. In the absence of anything else,
reservations is a necessary evil.
I am indeed worried about the doctor who mis-handles an operation or a
engineer who cannot divide. But the social problem needs to be looked
at from a much higher level, and the social problem *has* to be fixed
for the good of the (future) society.
Vibhu.
> Sulin, since you are a dalit, you would not agree to anything I said
here.
> But that is how I see it.
>
> LC (A frustrated but proud Brahmin)
> >
> > Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|You are assuming that the girl fared badly. You have judged her and let
>:|the examiner off. We still don't know who is/was guilty?
will any guy/gal in the open category be given the privilegee accorded
to her.
Visu
It is a question of right and wrong. If the girl had really failed, why
was she given the second chance? Let her go.
Release the results and the evaluation information.
Someone must go. Either the girl must go or the examiner must go.
If the examiner was wrong, he must be punished. If he made a
genuine mistake, then review all his work.
All this even if the girl were you!
Y2K Pagan
belong to you know what.
Sir Death
Colony was divided into two halves.... People who could think and
people who couldn't.
People who had brains came together and formed a powerful colony as we
know "brahmins"
People who were inferior in IQ had to be the outcasts or BC as we call
them.
The system got ruined afterwards due to privileged access only to
Brahmins in the field of education.
Now again we are going in the same path.
would you marry an idiot girl? I don't think so unless you are IDIOT
ENEOUGH not to recognize that she is one!! This forms the two trends
in the colony as till today. No one can change the laws of nature. It
is the law of evolution that one part of the soc. will always be
brains.
So considering that people having brains will same level opp. sex, it
is but natural that the colony will be divided into two halves.
Now it is not the Brahmins fault in the current Y2K that they are
around ruling the EDUCATION SYSTEM as they are the one who are evolved
with brains.
So don't get bothered by BRAHMINS around they will always be there
ruling the educational system as they are the BRAINS of the current
soc.
Please do reply to this message I want to know your thoughts.
No offence intended
UHA
On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:17:31 GMT, Romanize <joshi...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> "lig" <lignite...@oceanfree.net.nospamm> wrote:
>
>>Consider such a scenario. For over 1000 years , education as a niche
>>area was cornered by a few privileged ass holes called Brahmins.
>
>What these assholes were doing with this niche education for over 1000
>years, getting Mughals and their predecessors perform shraaddha in
>Gaya, or performing their last rites on MaNikarNikaa GhaaT in Varanasi ?
>
>>Convinently comes in caste system. Real handy you know. They keep
>>raping the system to such a thorough degree that after a 1000 years ,
>>IIT becomes Iyerengars(Iyers & Iyengars, bloody Brahmins) Institute of
>>Technology.
>
Sunil
for my future arguments.
Cheers,
Sunil (A Proud Dalit)
Sunil
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Sir Death
Y2K Pagan
of Dalits.
Chirag Patnaik
--
http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
If you want to flame me or praise me go to
http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
and leave SCI out of it.
____________________________________________________________________________
Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
Visu
Einstein ar a Newton?
Perhaps they are not so intelligent after all.
If Ambedkar could think up a constitution he must have had something in
him. He was not a member of the the powerful colony of "brahmins". If
your logic is true the Einstein's progeny would have created a powerful
colony of "Einstein's".
You theory was tried by Hitler (The German guy not the one from Mumbai)
and it failed. As you might recall, he tried to breed a whole new race
of pure Aryans and failed.
In article <slshpskd54frovger...@4ax.com>,
mongoose
north india and brought power to the dalits. At this rate, in 50 years the
dalits will rule India.
Y2K Pagan wrote in message <4u0jpssr6anhv0hf4...@4ax.com>...
Dr. Anil Joshi
>
> While I am not conversant with the IIT system and indeed disagree with the
> selective re-examination of 5 students as mentioned in this thread , the
> case should be thoroughly investigated and the erring official/examiner shd
> be castrated.Lets not forget that the examiner could be from the
^^^^^^^^^
That seems to be little too harsh. I hope you meant to write "castigated" ;-|
--
Anil Joshi, Ph.D. Phone: 217 244 7875
CA&SI Fax: 217 244 7874
2004, S. Wright Street, St 107 email: jo...@casicorp.com
Urbana IL 61801 USA Web Page: http://www.casicorp.com
Romanize
Sir Death <vik...@operamail.com> wrote:
> It all started in the past.
> Colony was divided into two halves.... People who could think and
> people who couldn't.
> People who had brains came together and formed a powerful colony as we
> know "brahmins"
> People who were inferior in IQ had to be the outcasts or BC as we call
> them.
People with any little brains never could form and still are having
trouble to form any colony. Until yesterday it has been people with
brown and not brain that ruled, and those believing in might is right
but with bit of less brown clustered around the browniest one(s). If
brain it had to be very cunning one to play on people's greed to be
able to outsmart on rare occassions the browniests.
It will be heaven on earth when guileless brains come together without
any interference from brown or cunning.
> The system got ruined afterwards due to privileged access only to
> Brahmins in the field of education.
Since when has the "field of education" has taken shape capable to
provide a proud, self sufficient, independent living?
--
Let k t p represent vowel A in them.
http://www.eurosys.net/gujarati
Y2K Pagan
read this:
>:|I actually admire both of them. They together have changed the politics of
>:|north india and brought power to the dalits. At this rate, in 50 years the
>:|dalits will rule India.
one doesn't mind them ruling as much as they claiming that they (I
mean them personally) are oppressed
Visu
jo...@casicorp.com (Dr. Anil Joshi) wrote:
> "lig" <lignite...@oceanfree.net.nospamm> writes:
>
> >
> > While I am not conversant with the IIT system and indeed disagree
with the
> > selective re-examination of 5 students as mentioned in this thread ,
the
> > case should be thoroughly investigated and the erring
official/examiner shd
> > be castrated.Lets not forget that the examiner could be from the
> ^^^^^^^^^
> That seems to be little too harsh. I hope you meant to write
"castigated" ;-|
He seemed adamant and even prescribes the bobbit for all erring
officials. Otherwise he seemed to believe in "Equality in the practice
and delivery of justice".
>
> --
> Anil Joshi, Ph.D. Phone: 217 244 7875
> CA&SI Fax: 217 244 7874
> 2004, S. Wright Street, St 107 email:
jo...@casicorp.com
> Urbana IL 61801 USA Web Page:
http://www.casicorp.com
>
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:28:58 -0400, mongoose thought that we should
> read this:
>
> >:|I actually admire both of them. They together have changed the
politics of
> >:|north india and brought power to the dalits. At this rate, in 50
years the
> >:|dalits will rule India.
>
> one doesn't mind them ruling as much as they claiming that they (I
> mean them personally) are oppressed
Also try and fit in an opinion of Jagjivam Ram who was called "chamar"
by most people in the Morarji Desai Govt.
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Visu
mone...@rediffmail.com wrote:
> think again, can low brained morons really rule brainy soc.?
Yes, Laloo Prasad Yadav. Ask the Bihari brahmins.
>
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 03:32:59 +0530, Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:28:58 -0400, mongoose thought that we should
> >read this:
> >
> >>:|I actually admire both of them. They together have changed the
politics of
> >>:|north india and brought power to the dalits. At this rate, in 50
years the
> >>:|dalits will rule India.
> >
> >one doesn't mind them ruling as much as they claiming that they (I
> >mean them personally) are oppressed
> >
> >Chirag Patnaik
>
>
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|What do you think of Mahatma Gandhi and Ambedkar.
Great guys. Gandhi Because, he he stood for what he believed in and
Ambedkar for the same reason
>:|Also try and fit in an opinion of Jagjivam Ram who was called "chamar"
>:|by most people in the Morarji Desai Govt.
I'm sorry I don't know much about the life and times of Jagjivan
Ram/Morarji Desai, that time period is a blank spot in my head.
Frustrated Patriotic
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 03:32:59 +0530, Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:28:58 -0400, mongoose thought that we should
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:38:51 GMT, Visu thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|What do you think of Mahatma Gandhi and Ambedkar.
>
> Great guys. Gandhi Because, he he stood for what he believed in and
> Ambedkar for the same reason
How did Gandhi treat Ambedkar?
With the same contempt that you now display for the dalits.
Not much has changed has it?
If you can support hindi claiming that it is spoken by the largest
group of people in india. Then by the same democratic norm, India must
be declared a Dalit country!
>
> >:|Also try and fit in an opinion of Jagjivam Ram who was called
"chamar"
> >:|by most people in the Morarji Desai Govt.
>
> I'm sorry I don't know much about the life and times of Jagjivan
> Ram/Morarji Desai, that time period is a blank spot in my head.
>
Some other day perhaps.
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|How did Gandhi treat Ambedkar?
Who cares, both stood for what they believed in.
>:|With the same contempt that you now display for the dalits.
HAHAHAHa, good joke. In real life I wouldn't give a damn. here too I
don't, just some people have a misplaced their ire, failing to realise
that people who are on this NG do not practise discrimination. You
have jumped in at the point when i said
"one doesn't mind them ruling as much as they claiming that they (I
mean them personally) are oppressed"
so how do you construe that I hold them in Contempt?
>:|Not much has changed has it?
I don't know what you mean, but the educated Indian doesn't give a
damn as to what caste one belongs (at least i haven't met anyone yet).
>:|If you can support hindi claiming that it is spoken by the largest
>:|group of people in india. Then by the same democratic norm, India must
>:|be declared a Dalit country!
errr excuse me. i never said hindi be imposed on other people, just
said that this paranoia about hindi is pointless.
BTW regards your remark about a dalit country and Ambedkar, Ambedkar
was never a keen activist for the independence of India, he wouldn't
have approved of the independence of Dalits as a separate country. Am
still curious why he was so against the independence of India.
PS What about Tulu? please do tell.
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:12:59 GMT, Visu thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|How did Gandhi treat Ambedkar?
>
> Who cares, both stood for what they believed in.
>
> >:|With the same contempt that you now display for the dalits.
>
> HAHAHAHa, good joke. In real life I wouldn't give a damn. here too I
> don't, just some people have a misplaced their ire, failing to realise
> that people who are on this NG do not practise discrimination. You
> have jumped in at the point when i said
If you didn't give a damn you wouldn't be talking ill of them either.
Who are the people who practice discrimination?
>
> "one doesn't mind them ruling as much as they claiming that they (I
> mean them personally) are oppressed"
>
> so how do you construe that I hold them in Contempt?
Read what you have posted in the past.
>
> >:|Not much has changed has it?
>
> I don't know what you mean, but the educated Indian doesn't give a
> damn as to what caste one belongs (at least i haven't met anyone yet).
>
Do tell this to the judge who used ganga jal to purify the court room
after his predecessor who was not a caste hindu.
> >:|If you can support hindi claiming that it is spoken by the largest
> >:|group of people in india. Then by the same democratic norm, India
must
> >:|be declared a Dalit country!
>
> errr excuse me. i never said hindi be imposed on other people, just
> said that this paranoia about hindi is pointless.
>
Perhaps now you have second thoughts about hindi.
Especially when the same set of rules are being applied.
> BTW regards your remark about a dalit country and Ambedkar, Ambedkar
> was never a keen activist for the independence of India, he wouldn't
> have approved of the independence of Dalits as a separate country. Am
> still curious why he was so against the independence of India.
Ambedkar believed that the transfer of power would be from B to B. i.e
from British to Brahmin. He felt and knew that the dalits would face a
worse fate under the Brahmins than under the British. That was the
context in which he said that. People like you have proved him right.
>
> PS What about Tulu? please do tell.
Get to know the history of Tulu and you will know.
Don't use this to distract anyone's attention.
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|If you didn't give a damn you wouldn't be talking ill of them either.
you are like that fgazi guy, taking insult where none was intended. No
point continuing this.
Bye
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|Perhaps now you have second thoughts about hindi.
>:|Especially when the same set of rules are being applied.
Bullshit. talk about convulted logic, you seem to have it.
Y2K Pagan
pretend to be pretty egalitarian.
Sunil
You do have to admit that whatever Visu mentioned in his responses was very much
to the point, correct and devoid of any inflammatory material.
Sunil (A Proud Dalit)
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|You do have to admit that whatever Visu mentioned in his responses was very much
>:|to the point, correct and devoid of any inflammatory material.
Yes, I agree.
BTW I was watching BBC yesterday and they showed a guy from down
south. He was the guy you describe as a idiot (or whatever expletive
you use) Brahmin, and I agree, such buggers need to be kicked in their
teeth. I sympathise as to what all you must have gone through.
What bugs me though is why should a person who scrored less than me
get prised seats. It sounds like bonded labout if you ask me. The
children being punished for what the ancestors did. But then we can
have aother debate on that sometime in another thread.
Sunil
Y2K Pagan wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:07:24 -0400, Sunil thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|You do have to admit that whatever Visu mentioned in his responses was very much
> >:|to the point, correct and devoid of any inflammatory material.
>
> Yes, I agree.
>
> BTW I was watching BBC yesterday and they showed a guy from down
> south. He was the guy you describe as a idiot (or whatever expletive
> you use) Brahmin, and I agree, such buggers need to be kicked in their
> teeth. I sympathise as to what all you must have gone through.
>
> What bugs me though is why should a person who scrored less than me
> get prised seats. It sounds like bonded labout if you ask me. The
> children being punished for what the ancestors did. But then we can
> have aother debate on that sometime in another thread.
Sure, I would welcome that.
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Y2K Pagan
this:
I wrote earlier:
>:|> What bugs me though is why should a person who scrored less than me
>:|> get prised seats. It sounds like bonded labout if you ask me. The
>:|> children being punished for what the ancestors did. But then we can
>:|> have aother debate on that sometime in another thread.
>:|
>:|Sure, I would welcome that.
But you will have to initiate it, else we will have people like Visu
claiming what not.
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:06:32 GMT, Visu thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|Perhaps now you have second thoughts about hindi.
> >:|Especially when the same set of rules are being applied.
>
> Bullshit. talk about convulted logic, you seem to have it.
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> For a guy who supports bengali domination over other languages, you
> pretend to be pretty egalitarian.
>
on whether Hindi should thrive at the cost of Bengali.
It was where you mentioned that people speak in Bengali during durga
pooja.
When and where did I mention Bengali domination? I never did.
You are being uttering factual inaccuracies.
You could do better.
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:28:49 -0400, Sunil thought that we should read
> this:
>
> I wrote earlier:
> >:|> What bugs me though is why should a person who scrored less than
me
> >:|> get prised seats. It sounds like bonded labout if you ask me. The
> >:|> children being punished for what the ancestors did. But then we
can
> >:|> have aother debate on that sometime in another thread.
> >:|
> >:|Sure, I would welcome that.
>
> But you will have to initiate it, else we will have people like Visu
> claiming what not.
What was it that you didn't like?
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wrote earlier in a different thread:
> >:|> Not that the Bengali's aren't imperialists on their own right,
the
> >:|> Assamese detest the Bengali's and so do the Oriya's to a lesser
> >:|> extent, because of the smug superior attitude of Bengali's in
general
> >:|> regards other people.
>
> and in response, On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:34:17 GMT, Visu thought that
> we should read this:
> >:|You have a right to detest Bengalees but you do not have a right to
> >:|determine whether Bengalees can afford to have a superior attitude
about
> >:|their own language.
>
> In convoluted language what he was essentially saying is, it is okay
> for the Bengali's to dominate in the region, but it is not okay for
> Hindi to dominate. In effect justifying Bengali domination while
> criticising Hindi domination, which was contrary to his/her current
> egalitarian pretense.
Your lie stands exposed.
> That discussion was all the more funny considering that I'm not a
> native Hindi speaker (Hindi was my weakest subject in School) and he
> attacked me for my defence of Hindi, I suppose he was assuming that I
Is no one allowed to speak against Hindi?
Is that a new law?
> was a North Indian Hindi imposing fanatic and he was some sort of
> Knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of Bengali.
>
And in this new story where was Aishwarya Rai?
:)
> What does all this have to do with this thread?
You raked it up.
>
> To a response regarding Gandhi and Ambedkar and he/she somehow managed
> to figure out that I held them (i.e the Dalits) in contempt. In
> addition to that he managed to bring in Hindi (I don't know why he/she
> has a fixation to the same) and said that Dalits being the largest
> group should rule, when I have previously said in this thread that I
> have no problem with that. Then I commented on his/her egalitarian
> pretense, he responded with the very familiar rambling of many in this
> NG regarding context.
You can't even bring yourself upto repeating the "context" can you?
>
> What this aside proves that it is Politically Incorrect to question
You were not questioning anything. You were beating up on that tribal
girl?
> the reservation policy, this is similar to the PSec stand regards
> Muslims. According to such people, to question is to be a fanatic.
PSec eh?
Now you are beginning to show your true colours.
(please correct me if I'm mistaken)
> When our culture has been to question, before one accepts I find this
Which culture?
Since you are in the mood go on.
> intolerance to questions to be quite fanatic in it's own right.
Intolerance to which question ?
Which one did I fail to answer?
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/ New and Improved :-)
> If you want to flame me or praise me go to
> http://www.quicktopic.com/3/H/g5nPgAdHKPV3dSjT7tT
> and leave SCI out of it.
>
________________________________________________________________________
____
> Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
>
Y2K Pagan
Y2K Pagan
>:|> Not that the Bengali's aren't imperialists on their own right, the
>:|> Assamese detest the Bengali's and so do the Oriya's to a lesser
>:|> extent, because of the smug superior attitude of Bengali's in general
>:|> regards other people.
and in response, On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:34:17 GMT, Visu thought that
we should read this:
>:|You have a right to detest Bengalees but you do not have a right to
>:|determine whether Bengalees can afford to have a superior attitude about
>:|their own language.
In convoluted language what he was essentially saying is, it is okay
for the Bengali's to dominate in the region, but it is not okay for
Hindi to dominate. In effect justifying Bengali domination while
criticising Hindi domination, which was contrary to his/her current
egalitarian pretense.
That discussion was all the more funny considering that I'm not a
native Hindi speaker (Hindi was my weakest subject in School) and he
attacked me for my defence of Hindi, I suppose he was assuming that I
was a North Indian Hindi imposing fanatic and he was some sort of
Knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of Bengali.
What does all this have to do with this thread?
To a response regarding Gandhi and Ambedkar and he/she somehow managed
to figure out that I held them (i.e the Dalits) in contempt. In
addition to that he managed to bring in Hindi (I don't know why he/she
has a fixation to the same) and said that Dalits being the largest
group should rule, when I have previously said in this thread that I
have no problem with that. Then I commented on his/her egalitarian
pretense, he responded with the very familiar rambling of many in this
NG regarding context.
What this aside proves that it is Politically Incorrect to question
the reservation policy, this is similar to the PSec stand regards
Muslims. According to such people, to question is to be a fanatic.
When our culture has been to question, before one accepts I find this
intolerance to questions to be quite fanatic in it's own right.
Chirag Patnaik
Y2K Pagan
Mo
one original and rest quoted lines..
Visu
Y2K Pagan <usen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Typical PSec trashy reply. Perhaps you have a monopoly over tolerance?
>
Or haven't you warmed up yet?
Sanjay Joshi
Theres proof enough that "lig" did need reservations! ;-)
On 15 Aug 2000, Dr. Anil Joshi wrote:
> "lig" <lignite...@oceanfree.net.nospamm> writes:
>
> >
> > While I am not conversant with the IIT system and indeed disagree with the
> > selective re-examination of 5 students as mentioned in this thread , the
> > case should be thoroughly investigated and the erring official/examiner shd
> > be castrated.Lets not forget that the examiner could be from the
> ^^^^^^^^^
> That seems to be little too harsh. I hope you meant to write "castigated" ;-|
>
> --
> Anil Joshi, Ph.D. Phone: 217 244 7875
> CA&SI Fax: 217 244 7874
> 2004, S. Wright Street, St 107 email: jo...@casicorp.com
> Urbana IL 61801 USA Web Page: http://www.casicorp.com
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjay Joshi
News Page: http://www.geocities.com/sanjos/news
Amit Kumar Fan Club http://www.geocities.com/amitkumarrules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sid Harth
20Bill%20on%20marks%20for%20SCs,%20STs
Parliament passes Bill on marks for SCs, STs
New Delhi, Aug. 22: Two Constitution Amendment Bills to restore
relaxations in qualifying marks for promotioms in government jobs to
Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and exempt tribal dominated
Arunachal Pradesh from reservation for SCs got parliamentary approval
with the Lok Sabha passing the measures.
The Constitution 86th and 88th Amendment Bills, which have already been
passed by the Rajya Sabha, were approved by the lower house by the
required two-third majority as the division of votes saw 340 members
voting in favour of 88th Amendment Bill and 347 for the 86th Amendment.
There was no opposition to the two Bills.
Members supported the 88th Amendment Bill seeking to restore
relaxations which were withdrawn following a Supreme Court judgement of
1997. However, members felt that a comprehensive Bill was needed to
help persons belonging to SCs and STs.
Minister of State for Personnel Vasundhara Raje said the relaxation was
being restored in view of the adverse effect of the apex court’s order
on the interests of the SCs/STs. The government had received numerous
representations from several quarters, including Members of Parliament,
to review the withdrawal of the relaxation, she said.
http://www.comebackkid.com/views.html
http://www.comebackkid.com/walwrite.html
Y2K Pagan
something important trash in the trash he put out
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:49:20 GMT, Visu thought that we should read
this:
>:>> What this aside proves that it is Politically Incorrect to question
>:>You were not questioning anything. You were beating up on that tribal
>:>girl?
Bullshit. All I said was everybody wouldn't have got the preferential
treatment given to the girl. Since when did IIT hold re examinations
for everyone who flunked in the entrance but had aced in the school
examinations?
Sid Harth
IIT caught cheating Andhra tribal girl, has to admit her
By R. Bhagwan Singh
Chennai, Aug. 8
An Andhra tribal girl has managed to wrest admission into the
prestigious IIT here after waging a do-or-die battle against the
administration, which first declared her failed but back-tracked
subsequently in the face of evidence in her favour and the threat of
agitation by the Periyar Dravidar Kazha-gam, a dalit party.
Ms Sujee Teppal, who bel-ongs to the Kammara tribe in Bhimavaram, was
so shaken when she learnt she failed the physics paper despite topping
mathematics and chemistry, that she even attempted suicide. According
to reliable sources, she was saved in the nick of time by the Apollo
Hospital here.
A fresh assessment ordered by the IIT director, Dr R. Natarajan, found
she topped the six students who were subjected to re-evaluation and
Sujee finally got her admission letter last week. The ambitious girl
has opted for a five-year “Dual Degree Programme” which will earn her
both B.Tech. and M.Tech. degrees in communications engineering.
Sujee has started attending classes. Sujee’s case has shown that for
all the hype about the quality of technical education it imparts (a
recent Asiaweek survey placed it among the top five institutions in the
Asia-Pacific region), there is lack of accountability among the faculty
which would have gone unchallenged had the girl not fought back.
Extensive investigations in the institute revealed Sujee was failed
deliberately in the physics paper despite doing well — one suggestion
widely heard in the institute corridors was that the concerned
teacher “punished” her because she was “too smart” for his liking. With
the Periyar Dravidar Kazhagam organising protest demonstrations, the
institute found itself in a fix.
Also, the head of the Chennai office of the National Commission for
SCs&STs fired off a missive to Dr Natarajan seeking a re-evaluation of
Sujee’s answer paper and suspension of the B.Tech admission for 2000-01
pending that.
It was not possible for IIT to admit there had been an error in Sujee’s
evaluation as that would mean a loss of face, so the administration
took an unprecedented step. A special one-week training programme was
arranged for the girl and five other SC&ST candidates who had also
failed. A fresh test was held and Sujee stood first among the six
candidates, of whom three failed.
“I am happy that my ambition is realised. I cannot say anything more,”
said Sujee when this correspondent met her at IIT. Her parents too did
not want to comment for fear of antagonising the administration.
Sujee’s father, Surendra Babu, is a junior executive at the Fact Agro
Service Centre in Bhimavaram.
“Their hesitance to talk to the media is understandable. They do not
want to jeopardise their daughter’s career,” said A. Sathyanarayana,
head of the National Commission for SCs&STs. “We used soft persuasion
with the IIT as no court could have helped in this case.
The director was fair and magnanimous in giving the girl another
chance,” he told this correpondent. It was also stated in some quarters
that Andhra Pradesh chief minister N. Chandrababu Naidu telephoned Dr
Natarajan to seek a review of Sujee’s case when the girl attempted
suicide. The director denied this.
Dismissing the suggestion that he was pressured into admitting Sujee,
Dr Natarajan pointed out that IIT had tough admission procedures and
the girl just did not make it even if she had scored brilliant marks in
her state examinations. She got through when yet another opportunity
was provided, he said.
“The children of many professors and deans at the IIT have not been
able to pass the entrance exam. Don’t you think that itself proves that
the admission procedure here is very transparent and absolutely fair?”
he asked.
Sujee was a meritorious student throughout school and had scored centum
in physics. Her total percentage was 92.13 in the first year of her
Public Intermediate Examinations in Andhra Pradesh. She scored 90.75
per cent in the Final Intermediate with a combined percentage of 94 per
cent in maths, physics and chemistry for both years.
Appearing for the Engineering and Medical Common Entrance Test in her
state, she stood first among the ST students and was given the
state “Pratibha” award, which meant free education till the completion
of a professional course. Bent upon studying at IIT, the girl brushed
aside offers of seats from other engineering and medical colleges and
landed up at IIT, Chennai, with a dream in her eyes.
When she failed to qualify in the joint entrance examination, she opted
for the one-year preparatory course conducted by the IIT at Chennai for
SC/ST candidates to lift them to the desired standards.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/SAsia/suchana/0500/h
077.html
Singh, Amar Kumar & C., Rajyalakshmi: Status of Tribal Women in India.
Social Change. Dec. 1993. 23(4).p.3-18. Location: SNDT Churchgate
Status of Tribal Women in India*
Amar Kumar Singh **
C. Rajyalakshmi ***
The present paper discusses the status of tribal women in terms of
their demography, health; education and employment. Despite
constitutional protection and assurances, even after four and a half
decades, their status is found to be lower than not only that of women
in the general population and the Scheduled Caste women but is also
lower than the status of tribal men. It is characterised by over-work,
invasion of sexually exploitative market forces in tribal society,
illiteracy, sub-human physical living conditions, high fertility, high
malnutrition and near women is discussed and early intervention for the
tribal girl is emphasized in order to improve the status of the tribal
women.
Tribals in India
1.1 India has largest tribal population in the World
The tribal population of India (67.6 million) is larger than that of
any other country in the world. In fact, it is almost equal to the
tribal population of nineteen countries with substantial tribal
population (Table 1, During 1993). Mynamar, with a tribal population of
14 million, has the second largest tribal population of India is much
more the four times that of Myanmar and more than six times of Mexico
(10.9 million) which has the third largest tribal population in the
world. The tribal population of India is more than total population of
France and Britain and four times that of Australia. If all the tribals
of India had lived in one state, it could have been the fifth most
populous state after Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal ad Maharashtra.
1.2 Constitutional guarantee to the tribals in India
Despite the protection given to the tribal population by the
Constitution of India (1950), it remains the most backward ethnic group
in India, on the three most important indicators of development:
health, education and income.
The tribals are more backward not only compared with the General
Population, but also compared to the Scheduled Caste, the other
acknowledged backward social group with constitutional protection.
D'Souza (1990) has examined the effects of planned developmental
intervention in the tribals from 1961 to 1981. He has concluded that
twenty years of intervention has not made any significant impact in
improving the conditions of the tribals.
1.3 The tribals in post-Independence India
In fact, the conditions of tribals in post-independence India has, in
many ways, worsened. This has been discussed in a special issue of
Social Change entitled Status of the Tribals in India (1993, vol. 2&3).
The tribals are the most adversely affected ethnic group due to
developmental projects of dams, factories and mines. They constitute 8
percent of the national population, but about 40 percent of displaced
persons due to developmental projects are tribals.
The pace of commercial exploitation of the resources of tribal land
which accounts for nearly 20 percent of the country's space with 8
percent of its population living on it has assumed a disturbing
dimension. The tribal's rights in basic resources such as land, forest
and water in fact in the entire environment have been seriously eroded,
as non-tribal peasants, traders, businessmen and other categories of
aliens have moved into tribal land, with the opening up of tribal
areas, and with industrilization.
Singh K.S. 1993a, p.7
The tribals have been correctly described as victims and refugees of
development.
1.4 The tribal demography in India
The tribals in India constitute 8.08 percent of the total population.
The following are the main demographic characteristics of tribals in
India:
1.4.1 In some States and Union Territories (UTs) they constitute an
overwhelming majority, e.g., Mizoram (94.75%), Lakshadweep (93.154%),
Nagaland (87.70%) and Meghalaya (85.53%) (Table 2). Even though the
tribals constitute a majority of the populatio in these States/Uts,
they contribute only a small proportion to the total tribal population
in India.
On the other hand, the States of Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Orissa,
Bihar, Gujarat, Rajastan, Andhra Pradesh and West Bengal account for 83
percent of the total tribal population, even though in these States the
non-tribals constitute the majority population.
1.4.2 In terms of geographical location, the distribution of tribal
population is classified into the following zones:
North-Eastern region: Comprising Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur,
Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland and Tripura.
Eastern region: Comprising Bihar, Orissa, Sikkim and West Bengal.
Northern region: Comprising Himachal Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh
Central region: Comprising Madhya Pradesh
Western region: Comprising Dadra and Nagar Haveli, Gujarat, Goa, Daman
and Diu, Maharashtra and Rajasthan
Southern region: Comprising Andhra Pradesh, karnataska, kerala and
tamilnadu.
Island region: Comprising Andaman and Nicobar Islands and Lakshadeep.
1.4.3 The tribals live in forests and mountains somewhat isolated from
the general population. Because of this have been called Girijan and
Vanvasi.
1.4.4 There are four racial/genetic group among the tribal population:
the Negroid, the Proto-australoid, the Mongoloid and the Caucasoid.
1.4.5 The tribals are predominantly rural (92.6%) (Table 3) 1.4.6.
They are overwhelmingly illiterate. The literacy rate of the tribals is
23.63 (1991). This is lower than that of the general population (52.21)
and is even lower than that of the SC population (30.6), another
backward social group with constitutional protection. The literacy rate
of the rural tribal female is 12.74 percent, which is lowest of all the
social groups.
1.4.7 The tribals are the poorest social group. In 1987-88, 52.6
percent of the tribals were below the poverty line as compared to 44.7
percent of the SCs and 33.4 percent of the general population (Table 4,
Singh, A.K. 1993, p.34).
1.4.8 The health status of the tribals is lower and inferior compared
to that of the general population. Several studies have suggested
higher infant mortality rate, higher fertility rate and greater
malnourishment.
1.4.9 The tribal groups are engaged in various occupations: hunting,
shifting cultivation to settled agriculture and rural crafts. A very
negligible percent are engaged in non-agricultural activities.
TABLE 4 Percentage of Population below the poverty line
Year Total Population Scheduled Castes Scheduled Tribes
1977-78 51.2 64.6 72.4
1983-84 40.4 53.1 58.4
1987-88 33.4 44.7 52.6
Source: Singh, A.K. (1993). Tribes and tribal life, Vol3, Approaches
to development in Tribal context. P New Delhi : Sarup & Sons. P.34.
1.5 The images of tribal women in India
1.5.1 The women in the tribal community, as in other communities,
constitute half of the tribal population. The well-being of the tribal
community, as that of any other community, depends importantly on the
status of their women.
1.5.2 The popular image and perception of the tribal women is that of
being better off than their non-tribal counterparts. There is no child
marriage, no stigma on widowhood. She enjoys the right to decide about
her marriage, etc. Instead of dowry there is bride price indicating
high social status of the tribal woman. A tribal woman can divorce and
remarry easily. She earns and is, therefore, to a great extent
economically independent.
A higher social status of women was reported by Furer - Haimendorf
[1943] Hutton [1921], Hunter [1973]. And Firth [1946] among Tharus of
U.P., and Nagas and Garos of the North East.
1.5.3 However, there are many facts which indicates a low status for
the tribal woman. For example, she does not have property rights except
in a matrilineal society which is a small proportion of the tribal
population. She is paid less as wages than her male counterpart for the
same work. Several taboos discriminating against tribal women exist in
certain tribal groups implying impurity and low status. The tribal
women cannot hold the office of a priest. There are taboos related to
menstruation as in non-tribal communities. The Kharia women, cannot
touch a plough nor can she participate in roofing of a house. The Oraon
women is also prevented from touching a plough. The Todas of Nilgiri
Hills do not touch a menstruating women for fear of destruction of
harvest. In certain tribes only the males can participate in ancestor
worship (Satyanarayana and Behera, 1986). The Toda and Kota women in
southern India cannot cross the threshold of a temple. The Santal women
cannot attend communal worship.
Rivers (1973), Dalton (1872) and Grigson (1938) have reported low
status of women among Todas, Kharies and Mariya Gonds with reference to
certain taboos during certain periods and ceremonies.
Majumdar (1973) has reported a higher status of tribal women on some
indicators while lower on other, while Shashi (1978) has concluded that
the status of tribal women varies from tribe to tribe.
1.5.4 The development projects have adversely affected the tribal
women. With deforestation they have to travel a longer distance to
gather forest products. Incidentally this has been one of the reasons
for the participation of tribal women in Chipko movement to save the
tribal the trees. There are evidences of sexual exploitation of tribal
women by forest and mining contractors. The incidence of sexual
assualts on tribal women have increased.
1.6 Inadequacy of micro studies of tribal women
There are a large number of studies on tribal communities but only a
few are focussed on tribal women. Reviewing the studies of tribal
women, K.S. Singh (1988) has concluded that there is "need for
generating studies which can fill the information gap about variations
that exist and about the role and status of tribal women from one
region to another and one community to another". Singh (1993) has also
reiterated that there are material on tribals in general but the
existing literature specifically on tribal women is limited. Health
statistics also give an overall picture and data on gender
differentiation of longevity, level of health, extent of mortality,
infant mortality, nutrition, etc. are not available. Emphasising the
need for base-line data on at least certain basic parameters relating
to tribal women, he status that data on various tribes are needed as
they differ from one another (Singh, B., 1993).
2. The UN International Year of the Indigenous Peoples
The United Nations has declared 1993 as the International Year of the
Indigenour Poeples, the Government of India has not signed the ILO
Convention 169 of 1989 and has not accepted that the tribals in Indian
are the Indigenous Peoples to the tribals of India have been discussed
by K.S. Singh and B.K. Roy Burman in Status of the Tribals in India
(Social Change, 1993, Vol. 23 Nos. 2 & 3). Notwithstanding the
political difficulties in the definition of the Indigenous Peoples,
there is not doubt that the tribals are among the earliest settlers in
India if not the original settlers. The Hindi word Adivasi, literally
means the first habitants. The UN International Year of the Indigenous
Peoples is an appropriate occasion to review the Status of the Tribals
of India and also the Status of the Tribal Women.
3. Status of Tribal Women in India: Health, Education and Employment
The status of any social group is determined importantly by its levels
of health-nutrition, literacy-education and employment-income. The
tribal women, constitute as in any other social group, about half of
the total population. However, the importance of women in the tribal
society is more important than in other social groups in India, because
of the fact that the tribal women, more than woman in any other social
group, works harder and the family economy and management depends on
her.
Health status of tribal women
A comprehensive review of the health status of tribal women has been
prepared by Basu (1993, this volume). His paper discusses, inter alia,
the following dimensions: sex ratio, age at marriage, fertility and
mortality, life expectancy, nutritional status, maternal mortality,
mother and child health care practices, family welfare programmes and
sexually transmitted diseases. The main conclusions of the paper are:
higher infant mortality rate in the tribals compared to the national
average,
low nutritional status of the tribals,
lower life-expectancy in the tribals than the national average,
high incidence of Sickle Cell disease (HBss) and Glucose-to-Phosphate
Enzyme Deficiency (G-6-80) in some tribal groups,
higher fertility rate in tribal women compared to the national women
compared to the national average. (Basu S., 1993, Social Change, this
issue)
Chatterjee (1993, this valume) has reported increase in the incidence
of diseases with increase in so-called "development". He has compared
this incidence of diseases in the tribal population living in three
different environments: (I) Forest-based, (ii) Denuded Forest Area, and
(iii) Industrially polluted area. The incidence of disease is lowest in
the first and the highest in the third.
Kar (1993,this volume) has reported that the reproductive behaviour of
Nocte tribal woman in Arunachal Pradesh is intimately related to her
value system and cultural traditions. She is considered to be healthy
if she can give birth to four or five children and also work in the
fields.
The health status of the tribals have been discussed in Status of the
Tribals in India, (Social Change,1993, Vol.23 Nos. 2&3). The factors
which influence the health status of the tribal population in general,
are also applicable to the tribal women, in fact, more so. For example,
it has been found that illiteracy, in tribal, as also in non-tribal
population, is positively correlated with ill-health. The tribal women,
as women in all social groups, are more illiterate than men. The tribal
women share, with women of other social groups, problems related to
reproductive health.
Educational status of tribal women
3.1 The low educational status of tribal women is reflected in their
lower literacy rate, lower enrolment rate and higher dropouts in the
school. The literacy rate of the tribal population as well as Scheduled
Castes and general population for three decades (1961-1991) are given
in table 5A.The following major trends can be seen from Tables 5A and
5B:
the literacy rate of tribals is lower than that of general as well as
SC population.
the literacy rate of the rural tribal female is the lowest of all
groups.
there is gender bias in the literacy of tribal population as in other
groups, the female literacy being lower than the male literacy. Through
there has been five-fold increase in the literacy of tribal females it
still is much lower than the national average for the females (39.29).
TABLE 5A Literacy rates among General, Scheduled Caste and Scheduled
Tribe population
General Scheduled Caste Scheduled Tribe
1981 1991 1981 1991 1981 1991
Total 36.23 52.21 21.38 30.06 16.35 23.63
Male 46.89 64.13 31.12 40.24 24.52 32.50
Female 24.82 39.29 10.93 19.03 8.04 14.50
Source: Primary Census Abstract General Population, Scheduled Casters
and Scheduled Tribes, 1981, 1991.
TABLE 5B Literacy rates among Scheduled Tribes and General population,
1961-1991
1961 1971 1981 1991
Tribal Male 13.04 17.09 24.52 32.50
Tribal Female 2.89 4.58 8.04 14.50
General Male 34.44 39.45 46.89 64.13
General Female 12.90 18.70 24.82 39.29
Rural Tribal Female 2.62 4.06 6.81 12.74
Rural General Female 8.42 13.08 17.96 30.62
Total Tribal 7.99 10.89 16.35 23.63
Source: Primary Census Abstract for General Population and Scheduled
Tribes, 1961,1971,1981,1991.
3.2 The relative ratio of girls-tribal and non-tribal-enrolled for
every 100 boys is given in Table 6 (Rama Rao,1990). The data relates to
four years: 1965-66,1970-71,1975-76,1980-81). Though the enrolment
ratio for girls has been increasing in both the tribal and non-tribal
groups, the ratio for tribal girls is much lower than that for non-
tribals at all given periods of time in classes I-V as well as classes
VI-VIII.
Table 6: Relative Enrolment Ratios of girls per 100 boys for tribals
and non-tribals Year Classes I-V Classes VI-VIII
ST Non-ST ST Non-ST
1965-66 38.6 57.9 27.3 37.3
1970-71 41.2 60.7 31.5 41.6
1975-76 45.9 62.5 37.2 46.2
1980-81 48.7 64.2 38.2 49.9
Source: Rama Rao, G (1990). Growth and disparity in school enrolment of
Scheduled Tribes in selected States of India, in A. Bose, U.P. Sinha &
R.P.Tyagi (Eds.) Demography of tribal development. Delhi : B.R.
Pbu.Cor.pp.303,308.
3.3 The drop-out rates for classes I-V,I-VIII and I-X for boys and
girls are given for tribal and non-tribal population in Table 7. It can
be seen from the Table that the drop-out rates for tribals are higher
than those for the non-tribals at all three levels of schooling. The
drop-out rates for girls are higher than those for boys in tribal as
well as general population. The drop-out rate for tribals at the
secondary level is as high as 87 percent and for the girls it is almost
90 percent. Consequently, there is a negligible percent (0.06%) of
tribal women in institutions of higher education.
Table 7: Drop-out rates of girls an boys for tribals and n0n-tribals,
1988-89 Total Population ST Population
Boys Girls Total Boys Girls Total
Class I-V 46.74 49.69 47.93 61.94 68.73 64.53
Class I-VIII 59.38 68.31 65.40 76.21 81.45 78.08
Class I-X 72.68 79.46 75.36 84.87 89.91 86.72
Source : Working Papers, NCW.
3.4 There are wide variations in the literacy rates of various tribal
groups. There are tribes with zero percent literacy (Table 8) and there
are tribes with literacy rate as high as 40 percent (Nagas). The female
literacy rates also vary from zero percent in some tribes to 33.4
percent in Khasis, Jaintias, etc.(Table 9).
Singh and Ohri in their paper entitled Educational Status of Tribal
Women in India (1993,Social Change, this volume) have suggested the
following measures for the improvement of the educational status of
tribal women:
On the basis of data related to education available from various
sources, identifying tribal groups for initiating innovative
educational programmes at the micro-level.
Conducting Statewise and district-wise surveys of causes of non-
enrolment of girl child in tribal communities in order to achieve the
goal of universalisation of elementary education.
Studying the problems of drop-outs, wastage and stagnation among tribal
girls in school.
Examining occupational mobility among tribal women as a result of
modernisation, education and social change.
Evaluating ongoing integrated tribal development programme in tribal
areas under the tribal sub-plans through performance appraisal with
reference to:
improvement in social and economic status of the people,
health modernity,
use of science and technology in agricultural/ horticultural
production, and
environmental conservation.
The role of mass media in educational development of tribals needs to
be assessed.
Oraon has reported high rate of non-enrolment in the Oraon tribal
female school students in Chotanagpur, due to the fact that the girls
are required to work in the house. (1993, Social Change, this volume).
Ambasht has argued that culturally appropriate learning materials be
prepared for the tribal students to help them achieve Minimum Level of
Learning. (1993, Social Change, this volume)
Employment status of tribal women
4.1 A very large majority of the tribals (almost 90%) are engaged in
agriculture; their other economic activities being food gathering
(including hunting and fishing), pastoral, handicrafts, trade and
commerce, and industrial labour. Rarely are they engaged in only one
occupation. The employment status of tribal women may be considered in
terms of their work participation, agriculture, forests, non-
agricultural activities and impact of development programmes.
4.2 Work participation
The work participation rates among tribals are higher than those among
Scheduled Caste and general population (Table 10).
TABLE 10
Work participation Rates, 1981 General SC ST
Male 51.62 52.60 56.66
Female 13.99 18.46 28.18
Through the work participation rate among tribal women has been
increasing over a period of time (1997-1991), it is lesser than that
for the tribal males, but higher than that for the general female
(Table 11).
TABLE 11
Work Participation Rates, 1971-1991 1971
1981
1991
Male Female Male Female Male Female
General 52.6 12.1 51.6 14.0 51.0 16.0
ST 55.0 20.8 56.7 28.2 53.7 30.0
Source :Primary Census Abstract for General Population, Scheduled
Castes and Scheduled Tribes,1971-1991.
Though the work participation among tribals is greater than among the
general population, within the tribals it is again the males who have a
higher work participation rate than the females, as in the general
population.
Agriculture
Through an overwhelming majority of tribal men (85%) and women (91%)
were involved in agriculture, there were more cultivators among tribal
males while more tribal women were agricultural labourers(Table 12).
TABLE 12
Industrial classification of Tribal Workers. 1961 1971 1981 1991
M F M F M F M F
I. Cultivators 68.2 64.9 63.0 42.7 59.6 43.8 58.6 47.0
II. Ag. Labourers 18.4 2.3 27.3 49.0 26.1 46.2 26.4 44.3
III. Livestock, forestry,etc. --- --- 2.3 2.4 .5 .5 2.2 1.7
IV. Mining and quarrying 4.1 0.6 0.6 0.6 .5 .5 1.0 0.5
V. Manufacturing Processing,
servicing and repairs
a) Household Industry 2.1 2.9 0.9 1.3 1.3 1.8 0.9 1.2
b) Other than Household 0.9 0.5 1.2 0.9 $ $ 2.4 1.2
Industry
VI. Construction 0.4 0.2 0.4 0.3 $ $ 1.1 0.4
VII. Trade & Commerce 0.4 0.4 0.6 0.6 $ $ 1.4 0.8
VIII. Transport, Shortage and 0.5 0.1 0.2 $ $ $ 1.3 0.1
Communication
IX. Other services 5.0 1.0 2.0 $ $ $ 4.8 2.6
As compared to general females, the tribal females were engaged more as
cultivators but less in occupations other than agriculture (Table 13).
TABLE 13 Industrial classification of Female/Tribal Workers (1961-1991)
Industrial 1961 1971 1981 1991
Classification Categories GF TF GF TF GF TF GF TF
1.Cultivators 55.72 36.18 29.61 42.7 33.09 43.86 34.22 47.04
2. Age Labour 23.81 11.24 50.6 49.0 46.34 46.16 44.93 44.28
3. Manufacturing Processing,
Servicing and repairs
a) Household Industry 1.33 1.51 4.25 1.3 4.57 1.75 3.53 1.29
4. Other works 19.09 5.04 15.68 7.0 19.00 8.23 17.72 70.36
III+IV+V (b) VI+IX
Source : Census Reports : 1961,1971,1981,1991.
The major role that women play in agricultural operations has been
discussed by Roy Burman (1998). In the slash and burn cultivation,
women join in felling and burning trees, making holes with digging
stick, sowing seeds, weeding and harvesting. In plough based
cultivation, transportation , weeding, winnowing and dehusking is done
entirely by women while harvesting and threshing are done by both men
and women. Generally the ploughing is done by men but in some tribal
societies, women do the ploughing too.
4.4 Women and forests
Minor forest produce forms a major source of income in many tribal
communities, specially those having less than five acres of land. Women
and children are almost exclusively involved in collection of minor
forest produce, its storage, processing and marketing (Singh, B.,1993;
Roy Burman, 1988).
Increased government control of forests has distributed tribal economy
adversely affecting tribals lives, particularly that of women.
Appointing of agents from outside for collecting forest produce has not
only affected their livelihood, but has also made the work of women
more difficult. Collection of fuelwood has become more difficult since
it is less accessible and more time-consuming. The result has been less
income combined with less fuelwood available for themselves and lesser
nutrition. It also leaves them little time for earning wages.
Government control over forests has also reduced hunting to a ritual.
4.5 Non-agricultural activities
Only less than 10% of the tribal women are involved in activities other
than agriculture. This is less than half the percentage of females in
the general population in similar occupations (Table 13). This category
includes livestock, forestry mining/quarrying,
manufacturing/processing/servicing and repairs in household as well as
non-household industries, trade/commerce and services.
4.6 Impact of Development programmes
4.6.1 The impact of development programmes has been different on
different sections of tribal women. A small number of tribal women have
taken advantage of education, new opportunities for employment and self-
fulfilment. In a seri-culture project for tribal women in Udaipur
(Brandon & Dixit, 1983) a remarkable change in the quality of life of
the tribal women was reported. Besides economic benefits they had more
leisure, self-reliance, innovativeness, adaptability and a more aware
social outlook.
4.6.2 However, there have been negative effects of development
Programmes also, such as:
the workload of women has increased,
with modem agricultural implements, unemployment of women has increased
and they have been migrating to other areas as labourers,
restrictions regarding exploitation of forests has marginalised women,
exploitation of women in various ways:
with introduction of Rural Land Ceiling Act, Tribal Land Transfer Act,
etc., the non-tribal men often marry tribal women to purchase land from
tribal poor to avoid legal complications, or derive financial benefits
received from Govt. but deny tribal women their position as wives;
lands are taken away by mine owners in the name of development and no
land is given in lieu of it nor is any rehabilitation programme
sponsored; when vacancies occur, jobs are given to menfolk who are
inheritors/owners of land;
women are prohibited from working in nationalised mines in evening and
night shifts; they are permitted in private mines but these don’t
employ women to avoid maternity benefits, equal remuneration, rest
shelters and creches;
indirect retrenchment is done by introducing voluntary retirement
programme for women : a woman may retire after 36 years and offer her
job to any male member who continues with her Provident Fund number and
gets all her PF benefits;
tribal women are used for immoral trafficking in collieries and mines
and by labour contractors;
women labourers (rejas) are exploited socially and sexually. Almost
half of them are unmarried and parents don’t get them married fearing
loss of substantial income. On the other hand, tribal men prefer to
marry non-rejas and even wires are deserted for doing this job.
4.7 In summary, the data on tribal women indicate that;
4.7.1 Tribal women are working women almost without any exception.
Working women in all social groups work harder than men. This is more
so for the tribal women. They are overworked : they rise in the morning
and go to the forest to collect fuel, fetch water, help in agricultural
activities, cook for the family, look after the children, do the
washing etc.
4.7.2 They are lower paid than men.
4.7.3 They have been adversely affected to deforestation and
development projects.
4.7.4 New strategies have been devised to remove women from work.
4.7.5 Non-tribal men are marrying tribal women to get land/jobs.
4.7.6 They are sexually exploited by non-tribal men.
Much has been written about the sexual permissiveness in the tribal
society, without understanding and even with an attitude of ‘holier
than thou’. But the permissive sexual behaviour in the tribal society
is controlled by strong social customs such as Bithla in the Santals,
and it is very different than the permissiveness of the contemporary
Indian elite imitating the Westerners.
4.7.7 Tribal women are denied property rights.
Mawar et al. In their study of Gonds in Madhya Pradesh found that most
tribal women were illiterate and tied to a primitive economy. Their
income level can be increased by raising their literacy level, and
giving them training fir income generating activities. (1993,Social
Change, this volume).
5. Profile of a tribal woman
5.1 The overall picture of the tribal woman that emerges from the
existing materials has the following features:
the literature on tribal women is substantially romantic and grim
economic realities have been completely ignored.
the tribal woman is a working woman and works harder than tribal men
and women in any of the social groups.
the tribal woman is illiterate.
the tribal woman is not healthy;
there is high fertility and greater incidence of malnutrition among
them. Haria drinking is almost hundred percent.
5.2The status of the tribal women is characterised by over-work,
invasion of sexually exploitative market forces in tribal society,
illiteracy, sub-human physical living conditions, high fertility, high
malnutrition and near absence of modern health care facilities.
5.3 The low health and educational status adversely affects the
economic status.
Main Conclusion
To improve the status of the tribal woman the focus has to be on the
tribal girl.
References:
Brandon, R.R. & Dixit, B.N.(1988). Sericulture for tribal women in J.P.
Singh, N.N. Vyas & R.S. Mann(Eds.) (1988). Tribal women and
development. Udaipur: MLV Tribal Research and Training Institute,
Tribal Area Development Dept. Rajasthan.
Dalton, E.T. (1872). Descriptive Ethnography of Bengal Calcutta.
D’Souza, V.S. (1990). Development planning and structural inequalities:
The response of the underprivileged. New Delhi: Sage.
Durning, A.T.(1992).guardians of the Land: Indigenous Peoples and the
Health of the Earth. World watch Paper 112.
Durning, A.T.(1993). Supporting indigenous peoples in Worldwatch
Institute’s State of the World, 1993. New York : Noston & Co.
Femandes, W.(1991). "Power and powerlessness. Development projects and
displacement of tribals,"Social Action,41 (3).pp.243-270.
Femandes, W.(1993). Indian tribals and search for an indigenous
identity. Social Changes.23 (2&3).
Firth, R.(1946). Human Types. London: Nelson.
Furer-Haimendorf, Von.C.(1943). The Chenchus: Jungle folk of Deccan,
London: Macmillan and Company.
Grigson, W.V.(1938). The Maria Gonds of Bastar. Oxford: Oxford
University Press.
Hunter, W.W.(1973). Orissa. London : Smith Elder.
Hutton, J.H.(1921). The Sema Naga. London: Macmillan.
Majumdar, D.N.(1973). A Glimpse of Garo politics in North Eastern
Affairs. London: Longman.
Rivers, H.H.(1973). The Todas. London: Macmillan.
Roy Burman, B.K.(1988). Challenges of development and tribal women of
India, in J.P. Singh, N.N. Vyas & R.S. Mann (Eds.). tribal women and
development. Udaipur: MLV Tribal Research and Training Institute,
Tribal Area Development Department, Rajasthan.
Sharma, B.D.(1991). Report of the Commissioner for Scheduled Castes and
Scheduled Tribes. Twentyninth Report. New Delhi: GOI.
Satyanarayana, R. & Behera, D.K.(1986).socio-economic responsibility of
tribal women: A micro-study of the Kissan of Western Orissa. Tribal
women and development. Agenda Papers, Theme I, P.15.
Shashi, S.S.(1978). The tribal women of India. Delhi: Sandeep
Prakashan.
Singh, A.K(1993). Tribes and tribal life.Vol.3.Approaches to
development in tribal context. New Delhi : Sarup & Sons.
Singh, A.K., Sinha, S.K., Singh, S.N., Jayaswal, M.& Jabbi, M.K.(1987).
The myth of the healthy tribal. Social Change,17(1), 3-23. Refer also:
The myth of the healthy tribal. Report of ICMR Task Force on Health
Modernity Education Project.
Post-gradute Department of Paychology, Ranchi University Ranchi.
Singh, A.K.Jayaswal,M. & Hans.A.(1991). Understanding the health of the
tribals. Social Change.21(1), 3-22.
Singh, B.(1993). An outline of work to be taken up on tribal women.
Working Papers :NCW.
Singh, K.S.(1988). Tribal women : Ananthropological perspective, in
J.P. Singh, N.N. Vyas & R.S. Mann (Eds.) Tribal women and development.
Udaipur :MLV Tribal Research and Training Institute , Tribal Area
Development Department, Rajasthan.
Singh, K.S.(1993a): Tribal Perspectives – 1969-1990 in miri M.(Ed.).
continuity and change in tribal society. Shimla Indian Institute of
Advanced Study. pp.5-10.
Singh, K.S. (1993b). status of Scheduled Tribes. Some reflections on
the debate on the indigenous peoples. Social Change.23 (2&3).
* Presented at the National Workshop on "Status of Tribal Women in
India" organised Council for Social Development, New Delhi and
sponsored by National Commission for Women, New Delhi (22-23 Dec'93).
** Executive Chairperson, Council for Social Development, 53 Lodi
Estate, New Delhi - 110 003 & Vice-Chancellor, Siddhu Kanhu University,
DUMKA - 814 101.
*** Senior Research Fellow, Council for Social Development, 53 Lodi
Estate, NEW DELHI - 110 003.
--
Sunil
Y2K Pagan wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:48:40 GMT, Romanize thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|
> >:|I believe the SC/STs do enter with lower grades even in IITs, or not?
>
> Yes they do, mucchhh lower grades.
How do you know that Chirag?
What do you do as a profession?
You may not answer the 2nd ques. if you don't like but elaborate on the
first.
I had written before about the tradition of education(yes I call it a
tradition) amongst lower-castes and upper-castes. I am not a writer but they
were just my thoughts. The gist of the description was based on the fact
that it is very difficult for most of the lower-castes to be very proficient
in education in short run of time when they were forcibly denied education
in the past by bigoted brahmins and other upper-castes. A low-caste who
toils in the field all day can't bring up his child with good education. Odd
are against the situation. Not to say that it doesn't happen.
While in the case of brahmins and other upper-castes, it was a necessity and
must to get education. After some time it becomes a tradition and more or
less comes naturally to you. You know that it is integral part of life, or,
in other words, it gets into your blood.
Moreover, it is also not necessary that you have very high PCM to succeed in
the university. A person with good grasp of the subject and will power can
easily gp through rigor of IIT or AIIMS. Requirement of high %ages (95-99%)
is the result of population pressure. It doesn't reflect on the success or
failure rates of the students in the university. It is natural though that
student with good study habbits will get higher percentages.
I am an example of that. Inspite of not having very high PCM, I was far
ahead of many high-caste students in university (engineering). Those
students had 90-98% PCM at CBSE level. I did learn quietly a lot from many
of my friends who were brahmins (hey there are many good ones) and muslims.
The art of learning is a combination of intellect, interest, strong will
power and very concentrated effort. They used to joke with me that I don't
need to study hard as I would get a job anyway. Some of them sarcastically
but most of them said it jokingly. It is sometimes understandabble because
the pressure of getting good job after study is such that most people crack
and let their emotions run high. They should realize that they should not
"keep an eye" on the reserved seats and really not worry about them.
I mentioned above stuff just to indicate that you concentarion on "muucchh"
lower grades doesn't mean much to the rate of success of the individual
involved at the university. Most of the IIT students succeed in life because
they have a very disciplined and studious life as students (which gets them
good grades) and habbits they learn help them to succeed everywhere as a
professional.
Sunil (A Proud Dalit)
Ravi Iyengar
>
>I am not able to understand how they said that she was
deliberately failed
>in the exam.
There is one more thing to this Lone, since it was a preparatory
course, all in the class were SC/STs. So 5 out of the 6 (number
from the article) cleared the exams. One failed. The 5 Tribals
who passed dont get talked about (nobody writes about the "IITs
excellent treatment to 5 tribals", but the 1 who failed has the
gall to involve political parties) and of course have Sid be
sympathetic towards her and write tons of garbage.
fucking assholes.
ravi
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Sunil
Ravi Iyengar wrote:
> "Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote:
> >
> >I am not able to understand how they said that she was
> deliberately failed
> >in the exam.
>
> There is one more thing to this Lone, since it was a preparatory
> course, all in the class were SC/STs. So 5 out of the 6 (number
> from the article) cleared the exams. One failed. The 5 Tribals
> who passed dont get talked about (nobody writes about the "IITs
> excellent treatment to 5 tribals", but the 1 who failed has the
> gall to involve political parties) and of course have Sid be
> sympathetic towards her and write tons of garbage.
>
> fucking assholes.
You are just assuming as to what happened. May be IIT erred. I am sure
something must have happened that IIT backtracked and admitted her.
They, as you mentioned, if they hadn't made a mistake could have easily
said that 5 were admitted and one failed, that's it. Why they had to
make a special case for one girl, I am sure there must be something
going on. Her father, a junior Engineer is not such a big guy to play
with the system.
Don't make it a case of tribal bashing. You guys are alive today because
these tribals have been fighting for India for freedom. You denied them
their rights in the past. Motherfucker, Iyengar, you are the asshole and
not Sid. Now just shut up and do your job.
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
Y2K Pagan
Romanize
"Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote:
>People who call her a tribal girl fail to point out that her father is
>a junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they are
>trying to paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to
>succeed.
>I am not able to understand how they said that she was deliberately
>failed in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a
>student's identity is not available just by looking at the answer
>sheet. Then how could the evaluator have known that it is the tribal
>girl. Oh I see. Exam evaluators are clairevoyents. "Hmm .... roll
>number 87877665, this must be Sujee .... let us fail her because she
is a tribal girl." Imagine that :-)
>JEE is a tough exam. If someone scores great in other exams, it does
>not guarantee that the person will score well in JEE too. I used to
>be very proud that even IIT Professors' kids had to struggle to get
>through JEE and many did not go through. While professors are still
>maintaining their respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians
>are involved. Like everything they get involved in, they will ruin
>the process.
> When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant process, IIT
> standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up
>speed. What next? Chief Minister's quota for JEE?
> Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in
>competition in India.Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure.
>Even if they fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are
>special people, who don't need to show as much talent as others to get
>into IIT.
> LC
I believe the SC/STs do enter with lower grades even in IITs, or not?
--
Let k t p represent vowel A in them.
http://www.eurosys.net/gujarati
Sunil
Ravi Iyengar wrote:
> "Lone Coder" <lone...@binary.com> wrote:
> >People who call her a tribal girl fail to point out that her
> father is a
> >junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they
> are trying to
> >paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to
> succeed.
>
> Well said Lone, she should have been leading a far more
> comfortable life than many of lower strata of "higher caste" ...
> but all these people see is what her caste is and look for a
> reason to cry fowl. of course they also talk of equality, when
> they themselves dont seem to be really for it as they will lose
> a lot. imagine a father a junior exec, mom possibly something
> equivalent, still some people here labelling her a tribal girl.
>
> >in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a
> student's
> >identity is not available just by looking at the answer sheet.
>
> I think the article is not worded properly. You dont know which
> subject you failed in JEE exams. There is no such thing. She was
> a prep student [some reservation candidates who do *really
> badly* are trained (in a prep course in IITM) for 1 year so that
> the quota for each year can be filled up ... some quota seats
> dont get filled but they have to be! so pick up the next few and
> put them through a prep course for 1 year to bring them to some
> level. they still cry fowl and talk of terrible treatment] ...
> she must have failed the Physics exam in the prep course.
>
> >While professors are still maintaining their
> >respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians are
> involved.
>
> yeah, this is really sad.
>
> >When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant
> process, IIT
> >standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up
> speed.
>
> No clue about IITG. But then some really good things are also
> happening. check out www.iitbabinitio.org.
>
> >Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in
> competition
> >in India. Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure.
> Even if they
> >fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are special
> people, who don't
> >need to show as much talent as others to get into IIT.
>
> couldn't have put it better.
Reservation system has caused unfairness but you have to realize that it
is the result of the deeds done by your ancestors. You are unfortunately
paying for that. If you look at the bigger picture, it is a kind of a
payback. Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer in
future. Maybe that will shake up some people who have become very
complacent and bring about a social change removing casteism and change
in people mindsets.
You classify them a special people. They are special, as they were
forcibly denied education for 3000 years by brahministic syste.. Now
when they are trying to come up, you guys try to treat them as martians.
There is nothing unusual happening here. When you feel bad, just curse
your ancestors. That will make you feel better.
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
>
>
> cheers,
Madhu
around, and because it became a political issue IIT had to backtrack and
create a second chance for her.
Sometimes, I think that you have to just trust the system
Madhu
"Sid Harth" <bak...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8msnqn$f41$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> deliberately in the physics paper despite doing well - one suggestion
> Singh, K.S.(1993a): Tribal Perspectives - 1969-1990 in miri M.(Ed.).
Dave
Sunil <su...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Y2K Pagan wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:47:21 -0400, Sunil thought that we should
read
> > this:
> >
> > >:|How do you know that Chirag?
> >
> > Numerous stories from friends at IIT, of people who didn't pass.
This
> > is not to say that open category people all pass at the first
attempt,
> > and also not an attempt to say that all reserved category students
are
> > duffers, just that the percentage among the reserved category is
much
> > higher. Anyhow, I've some doubts regarding the efficacy of
> > reservations, I can understand the need for them, I fail to
understand
> > how it helps.
> >
> > Again all your post is acknowledged, the problem is in this case for
> > eg the girl passed school with 90 some percent, hell, I know people
> > with 98% who didn't make it anywhere near the IIT's what makes the
> > girl so special? if you are following what I'm saying, my point is
> > this, that the education system should not be held ransom to petty
> > politicking. We have very few prized institutions, if they get
dragged
> > in the mud what is left?
>
> Agreed ! But again I don't know whether politics was involved at all.
One thing
> is for sure, if she doesn't work hard, she would be screened out
anyway during 4
> years at the university. She has got 90% and that's not that bad. I
would feel
> that if the party has used some dirty political power to twist the
events in her
> favour, then it is very bad. If it was an innocent mistake by IIT,
then people
> shouldn't make it a big deal out of it and consider it as another
opportunity to
> bash SC/STs and reservation system.
>
> The institutions like IIT and other engineering and mediacl
institutions should
> be aloof from political interference. I have personally seen many
people who
> graduated in engineering and medical universities in India (I don't
want to name
> the universities) and could not pass the qualifying examonations in
the West.
> They are both high and lower castes.
>
> It is good that at-least every Indian is looked at the same manner
here in
> Western world i.e Brown.
>
> Sunil (A proud Dalit)
If you read the original article, you will find that the girl failed
the entrance exam in physics. This was despite the fact that she had
90% in physics in her school exam. Anyway, she tries to commit suicide
when she learnt that she had failed the entrance exam. When the news
came to CM of Andhra Mr. Naidu, he tried to get to the bottom of it.
So, politics did play a part. The IIT systems offered the girl and 5
others a second chance to take the entrance exam. In the second chance
she came 1st among the six.
How many people who failed the entrance exam and were given a second
chance to retake the entrace in the same year? As far as I know, this
is the first time it has ever happened.
Anyway, I am happy that she is going to IIT and will become an engineer
and come here to USA to work with us. We need all the IIT engineers
right here in USA.
--
> hehehe
> Allah was the pet camel of Mohammed and Mohammed fucked
> Allah everyday. Mohammed was truely a camel fucker.
>
> AllahJihad (Jahangir)
I agree with you that islam is a gutter religion and its founder
Mohammed was a low life son of a bitch who was not only a highway
robber and child molester but also a camel fucker too.
Dave
Bholu
women. Thanks for this info. Sid - my faith in feces fascist Hindus has
increased.
Sunil
Y2K Pagan wrote:
Sunil (A proud Dalit)
>
>
> Chirag Patnaik
> --
> http://www.india.4mg.com/, The very best of Indian Links
> If you wanna flame me go to
Lone Coder
junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they are trying to
paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to succeed.
I am not able to understand how they said that she was deliberately failed
in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a student's
identity is not available just by looking at the answer sheet. Then how
could the evaluator have known that it is the tribal girl. Oh I see. Exam
evaluators are clairevoyents. "Hmm .... roll number 87877665, this must be
Sujee .... let us fail her because she is a tribal girl." Imagine that :-)
JEE is a tough exam. If someone scores great in other exams, it does not
guarantee that the person will score well in JEE too. I used to be very
proud that even IIT Professors' kids had to struggle to get through JEE and
many did not go through. While professors are still maintaining their
respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians are involved. Like
everything they get involved in, they will ruin the process.
When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant process, IIT
standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up speed. What
next? Chief Minister's quota for JEE?
Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in competition
in India. Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure. Even if they
fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are special people, who don't
need to show as much talent as others to get into IIT.
LC
Madhu <madh...@no-spam-pls.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8muj1h$lo2$1...@newsie.singa.pore.net...
Sunil
Y2K Pagan wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:59:08 -0400, Sunil thought that we should read
> this:
>
> >:|Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer in
> >:|future.
>
> Unfortunately I don't agree with that assessment. If you read my other
> post, I'll add to that, by saying that people need to get out of this
> rut that world is a free ride. Reservations in Schools, colleges,
> fine. For job openings okay. but for promotions? I thought only the
> meritorious deserved to succeed in life. again this is not to say that
> all reserved category students, professenals are duffers, but why the
> discrimination.
I didn't know that they existed in promotions also. If they are there then I
think it is for the sake of protecting the lower-castes from the attitudes of
some who are high up in the ladders. It is rather unfortunate that at no time in
life in India, one can escape the scar of caste and casteism. Had there been a
system where your caste is not known in the jobs then the root cause of
discrimination is gone. That's why I say, changing the mindset of the society
at-large is much more important,. The day people think differently, reservations
and this quota system won't be needed anymore.
Unfortunately, at this point in India, stress is more on the surnames. You would
call someone by Mr. Patnaik, Mr. Sharma or Mr. Gupta etc. Caste is absorbed in
everything. it is such a dangerous phenomenon that any misuse can play havoc
with the system and people lives May be that's the reasoin they have added
reservations to promotions. Again, just my feeling.
Ravi Iyengar
>People who call her a tribal girl fail to point out that her
father is a
>junior executive in a company. By saying 'tribal girl', they
are trying to
>paint a down trodden girl somehow surviving and trying to
succeed.
Well said Lone, she should have been leading a far more
comfortable life than many of lower strata of "higher caste" ...
but all these people see is what her caste is and look for a
reason to cry fowl. of course they also talk of equality, when
they themselves dont seem to be really for it as they will lose
a lot. imagine a father a junior exec, mom possibly something
equivalent, still some people here labelling her a tribal girl.
>in the exam. JEE exams are conducted in such a way that a
student's
>identity is not available just by looking at the answer sheet.
I think the article is not worded properly. You dont know which
subject you failed in JEE exams. There is no such thing. She was
a prep student [some reservation candidates who do *really
badly* are trained (in a prep course in IITM) for 1 year so that
the quota for each year can be filled up ... some quota seats
dont get filled but they have to be! so pick up the next few and
put them through a prep course for 1 year to bring them to some
level. they still cry fowl and talk of terrible treatment] ...
she must have failed the Physics exam in the prep course.
>While professors are still maintaining their
>respect for the exam, unfortunately now politicians are
involved.
yeah, this is really sad.
>When IIT Guwahati was created through political/militant
process, IIT
>standards started falling down. Now the downfall has picked up
speed.
No clue about IITG. But then some really good things are also
happening. check out www.iitbabinitio.org.
>Reservation system has already caused tremendous unfairness in
competition
>in India. Now these folks do not accept clear cut failure.
Even if they
>fail, they have to be admitted. Afterall they are special
people, who don't
>need to show as much talent as others to get into IIT.
couldn't have put it better.
cheers,
"nimi"
English.
Dr Natarajan pointed out that IIT had tough admission procedures and
>the girl just did not make it even if she had scored brilliant marks in
>her state examinations. She got through when yet another opportunity
>was provided, he said.
>
>
>“The children of many professors and deans at the IIT have not been
>able to pass the entrance exam. Don’t you think that itself proves that
>the admission procedure here is very transparent and absolutely fair?”
>he asked.
>
>
Sid Harth wrote in message <8msnqn$f41$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> http://www.asianage.com/asianage/09082000/detfro08.htm
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|Reservations, I don't think so will last very much longer in
>:|future.
Unfortunately I don't agree with that assessment. If you read my other
post, I'll add to that, by saying that people need to get out of this
rut that world is a free ride. Reservations in Schools, colleges,
fine. For job openings okay. but for promotions? I thought only the
meritorious deserved to succeed in life. again this is not to say that
all reserved category students, professenals are duffers, but why the
discrimination.
Chirag Patnaik
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|What do you do as a profession?
I don't mind answering this, nothing as of now. Will get back to
studying very soon.
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|One thing
>:|is for sure, if she doesn't work hard, she would be screened out anyway during 4
>:|years at the university.
i think you are mixed up here, yo get into the IIT's you need to do
class 12th and not be in the univ, I think you are confusing this with
the US system of education, four years undergrad and them specialise.
I'm not to familiar with the US system, but I think that is how it is.
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|How many people who failed the entrance exam and were given a second
>:|chance to retake the entrace in the same year? As far as I know, this
>:|is the first time it has ever happened.
Turns out that a year back the whole bunch of applicants, the papers
were leaked, so the exam was cancelled after the applicants took the
exam and the exam held all over again.
Y2K Pagan
this:
>:|How do you know that Chirag?
Numerous stories from friends at IIT, of people who didn't pass. This
is not to say that open category people all pass at the first attempt,
and also not an attempt to say that all reserved category students are
duffers, just that the percentage among the reserved category is much
higher. Anyhow, I've some doubts regarding the efficacy of
reservations, I can understand the need for them, I fail to understand
how it helps.
Again all your post is acknowledged, the problem is in this case for
eg the girl passed school with 90 some percent, hell, I know people
with 98% who didn't make it anywhere near the IIT's what makes the
girl so special? if you are following what I'm saying, my point is
this, that the education system should not be held ransom to petty
politicking. We have very few prized institutions, if they get dragged
in the mud what is left?
Chirag Patnaik