Sangh Parivar targets Maramon Convention!
Jim K Jacob
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Sangh Parivar targets Christian convention
centre
D Jose in Thiruvananthapuram
Even as the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government in
Delhi comes under
Opposition fire on the Ayodhya issue, the Sangh Parivar
in Kerala has
begun targetting the Christian community.
Under fire from the saffron brigade is a century-old
Christian convention
centre in central Travancore. Workers of the BJP, Vishwa
Hindu Parishad
and Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh have, thus, launched a
campaign
against the centre, located at Maramon, in
Pathanamthitta district.
At the heart of the controversy is a sub-surface dam
built across the
Pampa river, with a view to protecting the centre, which
hosts Asia's
biggest annual spiritual convention.
Under the aegis of the newly-formed Pampa Vimochana
Samiti, the
saffron brigade is now campaigning to demolish the dam.
The argument:
the dam obstructs free flow of water to the Aranmula Sri
Parthasarthy
temple, situated on the riverbed.
Further, say the Sangh Parivar activists, the dam poses
a major threat to
the annual snake-boat festival held in the Pampa river
as part of the
Aranmula temple festival.
The Samiti has given an ultimatum to the state
government, demanding the
demolition of the dam before June 15 failing which it
has threatened a kar
seva to attain that objective.
As part of a bid to involve Hindu sadhus and sants in
their agitation, the
Samiti further plans a march by sadhus to the dam site,
to "create
awareness" about the alleged threat the dam poses to the
temple.
Official circles express surprise over the development,
pointing out that the
government has already reduced the height of the dam, on
the advice of an
expert committee, to ensure uninterrupted flow of water.
Till last year, the BJP and allied organisations had
expressed satisfaction
with this step. However, they have now changed tack, and
launched a
virulent anti-dam campaign which reached a flashpoint
last week when
parts of the dam were found demolished.
Though the BJP claims its campaign is aimed at ensuring
the smooth
conduct of the temple festivals, Christian organisations
and non-BJP
parties have questioned the motives underlying the
agitation. The belief in
these circles is that this is part of a bid by the BJP
to swell its support base
in the Travancore region.
The party had played its cards in similar fashion on the
Nilakkal issue in
1982, and had in fact gained some political dividend
from it in subsequent
elections. Thus, the BJP's good showing in the
Mavelikkara Lok Sabha
constituency is being attributed to the anti-Christian
campaign of 1982.
Tension around the convention centre meanwhile has
mounted with
Christian organisations and anti-BJP parties joining
issue with the Sangh
Parivar. The Democratic Youth Federation of India, youth
wing of the
ruling Communist Party of India-Marxist, has already
taken out a rally
opposing the Samiti's demand.
The Mar Thoma Evangelistic Association, which conducts
the annual
convention at Maramon, has meanwhile submitted a
memorandum to the
government demanding its immediate intervention to
safeguard the centre.
By way of background, the dam was constructed by the
irrigation
department at the Mar Thoma association's request, to
save the centre
from the threat posed by indiscriminate sand-mining in
the river. The annual
convention is held in the sand-bed during the
January-February period,
when the river is practically dry.
The state government has intensified police pickets in
the area, and clearly
signalled its intention to protect the convention
centre.
Church organisations meanwhile have exhorted the
faithful to exercise
restraint, and to enable the government to solve the
issue amicably.
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S.L.
Panchali Hill is named after Draupadi, wife of the Pandavas of the
Mahabharat. Apon this hill in Kerala's Idukki district stood the very old
remains of temple stones and deities.
Local Hindu residents, mostly illiterate tribal people told, Hinduism Today
that Christian encroachers removed the image of Goddess Shakti from the
summit of Pachali Hills and broke into pieces footprints in stone believed
to be those of the Pandavas.
From the top of this hill the sacred lamp of Sabarimala can be seen.
As a result of Christian efforts, several important local landmarks have
been renamed after Christian saints.
(Source: Hinduism Today -pg 38 /August 1998)
Saurabh Jang
label every dispute a case of fascists harassing innocent Christians.
When "community organizations" in the US raise objections to Hindu
festivals such as Diwali or raise concerns about the building of Sikh temples
(both cases recently happened in the US) you don't call them fascists do
you?
Saurabh
Jim K Jacob (jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
: Now look what these fascist are up to.
Jim K Jacob
intolerance, and yes I would call those organizations fascists!
Oh and I don't think I see these organizations physically and
politically harassing other religions on a national scale as
i see your buddies there doing!
You seem like one of those people that like to look the other
way when its a minority being harassed, come one day these
people will come after you too, so don't be so flippant!
Jim K Jacob
propaganda and lies, reminds me a bit of Nazi Germany, hmmmm?
S.L.
The information on this is from a reputable source!
I happen to subscribe to this monthly.
Why don't you pick up an issue of Hinduism Today (august issue'98) and then
make distasteful, stupid, idiotic remarks!!!!!!!
By the way, Hitler was brought up in a Catholic school. Can't suppress facts
can we now? hmmmmmmmm.........?
Same person responsible for Nazi Germany.
*****************************************************************
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
S.L.
case. as well as Black Church burnings.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so much for American justice system! It stinks!
******************************************************************
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca
here in America?
Joe
S.L. wrote:
> Same justice that was meted out to the Eappens of Boston and the Au
> pair
> case. as well as Black Church burnings.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> so much for American justice system! It stinks!
> ******************************************************************
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Jim K Jacob
Who do you get off calling low IQ? And you received the info. from
a reputable source? Hinduism today, oh yeah that source is so totally
unbiased, just like KKK Daily right? When has a religion based newspaper
been been called a "reputable source", and you call me low IQ?!
Oh and when does being raised a certain religion guarantee
you practice it? Again I must ask you called me low IQ? Take look
at your arguments S.L. its leaking really bad!
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Mr Jim(low IQ) Jacob,
>
> The information on this is from a reputable source!
> I happen to subscribe to this monthly.
> Why don't you pick up an issue of Hinduism Today (august issue'98) and then
> make distasteful, stupid, idiotic remarks!!!!!!!
>
> By the way, Hitler was brought up in a Catholic school. Can't suppress facts
> can we now? hmmmmmmmm.........?
> Same person responsible for Nazi Germany.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Jim K Jacob
your quickwittery is just too dazzling?!
The Eappens for your info are christians, so I don't know what
your complaining about, the case is being tried again if you
haven't kept up, so justice is being done.
Black church burnings? Oh yes a national organization connected with
the government did that right?!
Believe me if these things happened in India we wouldn't even see any
fair play, No I'm sorry your dazzling arguments have not convinced me,
come back another day when you're sober or the such!
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Same justice that was meted out to the Eappens of Boston and the Au pair
> case. as well as Black Church burnings.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> so much for American justice system! It stinks!
> ******************************************************************
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
S.L.
1. Christianity Today
2. Christian Science (hehe) Monitor.
*********************************************************
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>Mr. gutless no name (and also low IQ) S.L.,
> Who do you get off calling low IQ? And you received the info. from
>a reputable source? Hinduism today, oh yeah that source is so totally
>unbiased, just like KKK Daily right? When has a religion based newspaper
>been been called a "reputable source", and you call me low IQ?!
>
> Oh and when does being raised a certain religion guarantee
>you practice it? Again I must ask you called me low IQ? Take look
>at your arguments S.L. its leaking really bad!
>
>On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
>
>> Mr Jim(low IQ) Jacob,
>>
>> The information on this is from a reputable source!
>> I happen to subscribe to this monthly.
>> Why don't you pick up an issue of Hinduism Today (august issue'98) and
then
>> make distasteful, stupid, idiotic remarks!!!!!!!
>>
>> By the way, Hitler was brought up in a Catholic school. Can't suppress
facts
>> can we now? hmmmmmmmm.........?
>> Same person responsible for Nazi Germany.
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>> >As always nameless S.L. stirring up communal passions with
>> >propaganda and lies, reminds me a bit of Nazi Germany, hmmmm?
>> >
>> >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
>> >
Jim K Jacob
You do not turn to these religious magazines for "reputable sources",
As you have with your Hinduism today,
Thanks for making my point again twit!
P.V.Mannil
forehead.
Pradip Parekh
Indian border states defending against the Christian rebels? I think you had
asked: but why are the troops there in the first place? Or may be it was
another Jacob.
Pradip Parekh
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
S.L.
Just another Fanatic Chrisitian from Kerala! I guess!
*********************************************************
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca wrote in message <35B797BB...@shaw.wave.ca>...
>If you don't like the justice system here, what the heck are you doing
>here in America?
>> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
S.L.
If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike. go stay in another
(Christian)country.! There you can pay homage to your previous Colonial
Masters!
______________________________________________________
>> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Mathews J. Thundyil
>Guess what?
>If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike.
Although that may seem like the easy way out, Hindu
fundamentalists like you better realize that we are
in it for the long-haul. You see, the thing with
issues like "freedom of expression" is that its
a double-edged sword. And the thing with double-edged
swords is this -- it cuts both ways.
Matt Thundyil
S.L.
Whatever happened about to freedom of speech???????????
India is a democractic country.
We are not a communist regime.
Nor are we supposed to place a "fatwa" on any ones head.
Its truly undemocratic! So why the uproar!
__________________________________________
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pao31$4...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
You see, the thing with issues like "freedom of expression" is that its
> a double-edged sword.
>Matt Thundyil
>
Mathews J. Thundyil
>Is that why you are making such a fuss about the Ban on Godse play.
>Whatever happened about to freedom of speech???????????
Like I said at the outset, reading comprehension is
not your strength. Unlike you and your Sangh Parivar
Hindutvadis, I believe in Humanity, and fundamental
human rights.
I opposed the ban on Godse's Play as much as I opposed
the ransacking of MF Husain's work.
You, and your racist, Hindu supremacist, Sangh Parivar
Hinduvadi friends, OTOH, do not believe in "freedom
of expression" when it is not your "expression".
I do not recall any righteous indignation on your part
when MF Husain's works were destroyed. Where were you
and your "Freedom of Expression" placards? Where were
you, when your ignorant, illiterate brothers tore down
the Babri Masjid? Where were you? Where were you?
One recalls Orwell: "Everyone is equal, but some are
more equal than others"
Matt Thundyil
S.L.
your infinite wisdom. hehe.............
you are comparing oranges and apples.
Godse play has a political theme.
would you like to ban JFk murder or Abe Lincoln dramas too?
M.F.Husain work - a religious connotation. He has hurt people's religious
feelings.
If he wants to make a fool of himself and get his publicity. Its his
problem.
____________________________________
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6paqnp$j...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
ramesh
P.V.Mannil wrote:
> >> >> >On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Christians Encroach on Ancient Shrine
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Panchali Hill is named after Draupadi, wife of the Pandavas of
> the
> >> >> >> Mahabharat. Apon this hill in Kerala's Idukki district stood
> the very
> >> old
> Yeah, the Pandavas existed just like Shiva had a extra eye in his
> forehead.
And like Rama was born at the exact spot where Babri masjid stood.
ramesh
S.L. wrote:
> Same justice that was meted out to the Eappens of Boston and the Au pair
> case. as well as Black Church burnings.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> so much for American justice system! It stinks!
But you and Jai Maharaj were thrilled that eappens lost their kid and the
killer walked free, since Mr. Eappen was malayalee christian, your enemy. Dont
shed crocodile tears
now.
> **************************
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
ramesh
S.L. wrote:
> Why the hell are you complaining about India all the time?
> Just another Fanatic Chrisitian from Kerala! I guess!
Doesn't an Indian have any right to complain about India? What right do you
Indian have to complain about America?
> *********************************************************
> jpo...@shaw.wave.ca wrote in message <35B797BB...@shaw.wave.ca>...
> >If you don't like the justice system here, what the heck are you doing
> >here in America?
>
> >> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Mathews J. Thundyil
>The more I read your post, (sarcasm mode on) the more flabbergasted I am at
>your infinite wisdom. hehe.............
>
>you are comparing oranges and apples.
>Godse play has a political theme.
>would you like to ban JFk murder or Abe Lincoln dramas too?
>M.F.Husain work - a religious connotation. He has hurt people's religious
>feelings.
My dear anonymous poster, the next time you get a chance,
pick up a dictionary and check the meaning of the word
"freedom". The day freedom comes with strings attached --
it is no longer freedom.
You are either free or you are not, just like you are
either pregnant or you are not. There is no middle ground
-- i.e., you cannot be free *only* if you accept some
silly concept.
Along the same lines, if Husain abused you, abuse him.
Or sue him. Or hurt *his* religious feelings. You cannot
brazenly break the law of the land on criminal
trespass and wanton destruction of property. If you
can do so, and get away with it, you are merely the
instrument of the state's connivance to limit Husain's
"freedom of expression"
Besides, since when has India become a bastion of
self-gratification, where gratification of "hurt feelings"
(be they religious, political, or whatever) is justifiable.
Is this a land without law? There are countries where
esteemed legal minds have ruled that it is not permitted
to prosecute burning of national flags/constitutions.
The "hurt feelings" of patriots were secondary to the
"fundamental" rights of humanity. There as here, the issue
is the same.
The same law of "freedom of expression" that Hussain should
have had, or Godse's protagonists should have had, or
Rushdie should have had, is what *you* have. And indeed
that is *all* you have. The law *doesnt* permit you to
commit criminal acts of trespass, assault or murder because
your "feelings were hurt." By your token, gandhi's
assasins should have been pardoned, and Indira's assassins
did not receive justice. And the muslims in coimbatore
who conspired to kill Advani should have been set free
-- after all Mr. Advani "hurt their feelings"...
This is a slippery slope, best not to start down it.
Matt Thundyil
Saurabh Jang
: intolerance, and yes I would call those organizations fascists!
: Oh and I don't think I see these organizations physically and
: politically harassing other religions on a national scale as
: i see your buddies there doing!
What makes you think that "justice" will be done in the US, but not in
India? Which is the country with a longer and better record of fair
treatment of minorities? India or the US? How many Muslim members
of cabinet have we had in the US? (Muslims today in the US outnumber Jews)
The dispute is rooted in a legitimate a clash of ideology and religion.
Hopefully the side with the better legal case will win.
: You seem like one of those people that like to look the other
: way when its a minority being harassed, come one day these
: people will come after you too, so don't be so flippant!
I see. If you really believe that Christians in India are an oppressed
minority you have been reading too much trash from Evangelical
Christian groups.
Saurabh
Prem Thomas
S.L. wrote:
> Guess what?
> If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike. go stay in another
> (Christian)country.! There you can pay homage to your previous Colonial
> Masters!
This from someone who lives in the Washington, D.C. area?? And I, for one, was
never under the impression that Jim K. Jacob was domiciled in India.
Prem
mailto:pre...@qed.net
http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=353985687&CONTEXT=899796610.1448346043&hitnum=1
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/minifaqs/jai.maharaj.miniFAQ
http://www.wetware.com/mlegare/kotm/html/jaievidence.html
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=363772940&CONTEXT=901277426.2025914393&hitnum=10
>It would be merely annoying if it didn't provide so much misinformation to
> new or occassional readers; preventing such misinformation being the
>only reason anybody ever responds to the jai-bot.
> - Narad, Chuck, "The Jai-Bot explained"
> rec.food.veg et. al., November 1994
Prem Thomas
S.L. wrote:
> Is that why you are making such a fuss about the Ban on Godse play.
> Whatever happened about to freedom of speech???????????
> India is a democractic country.
> We are not a communist regime.
> Nor are we supposed to place a "fatwa" on any ones head.
> Its truly undemocratic! So why the uproar!
Because, Jay's little workhorse helpmate, Matt was asking a pertinent
question: why has the Sangh parivar only now discovered "freedom of speech"
as a right? Incidentally, you may also want to address the issue of why Star
TV is being hounded in Indian courts: is "freedom of speech" a privilege
reserved for the "chosen" few? As I said before, what's good for the goose
should be good for the gander........
h.k.datta
ramesh wrote:
And Mary was a virgin
S.L.
Noah's Arch. and all those billions of life froms to be transported in a
boat.
The Earth was created 4000 years ago. (ask Darwin!)
Just like Virgin Mary! Immaculate conception.
Jesus walked on water.
Resurrection.
etc,....
Pandavas and Mahabharat:
In the early eighties an important archaeological site was found in India,
at Dwarka, the site of the legendary city of Lord Krishna. Dwarka was
submerged by the sea right after the death of Lord Krishna. This was
regarded as a grandiose metaphor, part of a story filled with great myths.
Now, it is discovered that the whole coast of western India sank by nearly
40 feet around 1500 B.C.E. _________________________________________
P.V.Mannil wrote in message <6p9s35$e14...@salford.ac.uk>...
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.98072...@Bayou.UH.EDU>,
Sridhar
>
>
> Because, Jay's little workhorse helpmate, Matt was asking a pertinent
> question: why has the Sangh parivar only now discovered "freedom of speech"
sangh parivar has discovered ?? i thought advani (is he no longer
one of the family or what ?) asked joshi (mah cm) to ban it ?
btw, you don't discover freedom of speech by not banning something.
the default state is to let people speak. it's only when you ban
something that you can be asked this question. get the point ?
suresh mavila
Jim K Jacob
I'm complaining about people like you S.L.,
who conviently hide behind fake names while raining
hate and other garbage on other Indians!
If there is a fanatic here its one that has to hide behind aliases!
Just another fanatic Jai Maharaj protege'.
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Why the hell are you complaining about India all the time?
> Just another Fanatic Chrisitian from Kerala! I guess!
>
> *********************************************************
> jpo...@shaw.wave.ca wrote in message <35B797BB...@shaw.wave.ca>...
> >If you don't like the justice system here, what the heck are you doing
> >here in America?
>
> >> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
> >> >At least here is the U.S. justice would be done, as these are cases
> >> of
> >> >intolerance, and yes I would call those organizations fascists!
> >> >Oh and I don't think I see these organizations physically and
> >> >politically harassing other religions on a national scale as
> >> >i see your buddies there doing!
> >> >
> >> >You seem like one of those people that like to look the other
> >> >way when its a minority being harassed, come one day these
> >> >people will come after you too, so don't be so flippant!
> >> >
Jim K Jacob
was the question asked to you?
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Pradip Parekh wrote:
> Aren't you the same guy who had problems with Indian troops patrolling NE
> Indian border states defending against the Christian rebels? I think you had
> asked: but why are the troops there in the first place? Or may be it was
> another Jacob.
>
> Pradip Parekh
>
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
> +AD4-At least here is the U.S. justice would be done, as these are cases of
> +AD4-intolerance, and yes I would call those organizations fascists+ACE-
> +AD4-Oh and I don't think I see these organizations physically and
> +AD4-politically harassing other religions on a national scale as
> +AD4-i see your buddies there doing+ACE-
> +AD4-
> +AD4-You seem like one of those people that like to look the other
> +AD4-way when its a minority being harassed, come one day these
> +AD4-people will come after you too, so don't be so flippant+ACE-
> +AD4-
> +AD4-On 23 Jul 1998, Saurabh Jang wrote:
> +AD4-
> +AD4APg- Big deal. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you have to
> +AD4APg- label every dispute a case of fascists harassing innocent Christians.
> +AD4APg- When +ACI-community organizations+ACI- in the US raise objections to Hindu
> +AD4APg- festivals such as Diwali or raise concerns about the building of Sikh
> temples
> +AD4APg- (both cases recently happened in the US) you don't call them fascists do
> +AD4APg- you?
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- Saurabh
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- Jim K Jacob (jjacob4+AEA-Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
> +AD4APg- : Now look what these fascist are up to.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : HOME +AHw- NEWS +AHw- REPORT
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : June 13, 1998
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : ELECTIONS '98
> +AD4APg- : COMMENTARY
> +AD4APg- : SPECIALS
> +AD4APg- : INTERVIEWS
> +AD4APg- : CAPITAL BUZZ
> +AD4APg- : REDIFF POLL
> +AD4APg- : DEAR REDIFF
> +AD4APg- : THE STATES
> +AD4APg- : YEH HAI INDIA+ACE-
> +AD4APg- : ARCHIVES
> +AD4APg- : Sangh Parivar targets Christian convention
> +AD4APg- : centre
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : D Jose in Thiruvananthapuram
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Even as the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government in
> +AD4APg- : Delhi comes under
> +AD4APg- : Opposition fire on the Ayodhya issue, the Sangh
> Parivar
> +AD4APg- : in Kerala has
> +AD4APg- : begun targetting the Christian community.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Under fire from the saffron brigade is a century-old
> +AD4APg- : Christian convention
> +AD4APg- : centre in central Travancore. Workers of the BJP,
> Vishwa
> +AD4APg- : Hindu Parishad
> +AD4APg- : and Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh have, thus, launched
> a
> +AD4APg- : campaign
> +AD4APg- : against the centre, located at Maramon, in
> +AD4APg- : Pathanamthitta district.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : At the heart of the controversy is a sub-surface dam
> +AD4APg- : built across the
> +AD4APg- : Pampa river, with a view to protecting the centre,
> which
> +AD4APg- : hosts Asia's
> +AD4APg- : biggest annual spiritual convention.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Under the aegis of the newly-formed Pampa Vimochana
> +AD4APg- : Samiti, the
> +AD4APg- : saffron brigade is now campaigning to demolish the
> dam.
> +AD4APg- : The argument:
> +AD4APg- : the dam obstructs free flow of water to the Aranmula
> Sri
> +AD4APg- : Parthasarthy
> +AD4APg- : temple, situated on the riverbed.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Further, say the Sangh Parivar activists, the dam
> poses
> +AD4APg- : a major threat to
> +AD4APg- : the annual snake-boat festival held in the Pampa
> river
> +AD4APg- : as part of the
> +AD4APg- : Aranmula temple festival.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : The Samiti has given an ultimatum to the state
> +AD4APg- : government, demanding the
> +AD4APg- : demolition of the dam before June 15 failing which it
> +AD4APg- : has threatened a kar
> +AD4APg- : seva to attain that objective.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : As part of a bid to involve Hindu sadhus and sants in
> +AD4APg- : their agitation, the
> +AD4APg- : Samiti further plans a march by sadhus to the dam
> site,
> +AD4APg- : to +ACI-create
> +AD4APg- : awareness+ACI- about the alleged threat the dam poses to
> the
> +AD4APg- : temple.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Official circles express surprise over the
> development,
> +AD4APg- : pointing out that the
> +AD4APg- : government has already reduced the height of the dam,
> on
> +AD4APg- : the advice of an
> +AD4APg- : expert committee, to ensure uninterrupted flow of
> water.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Till last year, the BJP and allied organisations had
> +AD4APg- : expressed satisfaction
> +AD4APg- : with this step. However, they have now changed tack,
> and
> +AD4APg- : launched a
> +AD4APg- : virulent anti-dam campaign which reached a flashpoint
> +AD4APg- : last week when
> +AD4APg- : parts of the dam were found demolished.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Though the BJP claims its campaign is aimed at
> ensuring
> +AD4APg- : the smooth
> +AD4APg- : conduct of the temple festivals, Christian
> organisations
> +AD4APg- : and non-BJP
> +AD4APg- : parties have questioned the motives underlying the
> +AD4APg- : agitation. The belief in
> +AD4APg- : these circles is that this is part of a bid by the
> BJP
> +AD4APg- : to swell its support base
> +AD4APg- : in the Travancore region.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : The party had played its cards in similar fashion on
> the
> +AD4APg- : Nilakkal issue in
> +AD4APg- : 1982, and had in fact gained some political dividend
> +AD4APg- : from it in subsequent
> +AD4APg- : elections. Thus, the BJP's good showing in the
> +AD4APg- : Mavelikkara Lok Sabha
> +AD4APg- : constituency is being attributed to the
> anti-Christian
> +AD4APg- : campaign of 1982.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Tension around the convention centre meanwhile has
> +AD4APg- : mounted with
> +AD4APg- : Christian organisations and anti-BJP parties joining
> +AD4APg- : issue with the Sangh
> +AD4APg- : Parivar. The Democratic Youth Federation of India,
> youth
> +AD4APg- : wing of the
> +AD4APg- : ruling Communist Party of India-Marxist, has already
> +AD4APg- : taken out a rally
> +AD4APg- : opposing the Samiti's demand.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : The Mar Thoma Evangelistic Association, which
> conducts
> +AD4APg- : the annual
> +AD4APg- : convention at Maramon, has meanwhile submitted a
> +AD4APg- : memorandum to the
> +AD4APg- : government demanding its immediate intervention to
> +AD4APg- : safeguard the centre.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : By way of background, the dam was constructed by the
> +AD4APg- : irrigation
> +AD4APg- : department at the Mar Thoma association's request, to
> +AD4APg- : save the centre
> +AD4APg- : from the threat posed by indiscriminate sand-mining
> in
> +AD4APg- : the river. The annual
> +AD4APg- : convention is held in the sand-bed during the
> +AD4APg- : January-February period,
> +AD4APg- : when the river is practically dry.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : The state government has intensified police pickets
> in
> +AD4APg- : the area, and clearly
> +AD4APg- : signalled its intention to protect the convention
> +AD4APg- : centre.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Church organisations meanwhile have exhorted the
> +AD4APg- : faithful to exercise
> +AD4APg- : restraint, and to enable the government to solve the
> +AD4APg- : issue amicably.
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg- : Tell us what you think of this report
> +AD4APg- : HOME +AHw- NEWS +AHw- BUSINESS +AHw- CRICKET +AHw- MOVIES
> +AHw-
> +AD4APg- : CHAT
> +AD4APg- : INFOTECH +AHw- TRAVEL +AHw- LIFE/STYLE +AHw- FREEDOM +AHw-
> +AD4APg- : FEEDBACK
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4-
>
>
>
Jim K Jacob
you are either quite deluded or living in a fantasy
world to make comparisons like that with the U.S.
Are the Muslims in the U.S. natives who have lived there
for a over a thousand years? Was India United as a whole
before 1947 ? Are we not basically a collection of different
groups of cultures peoples and religions?
Are not Jews represented in the U.S. govt far beyond their numbers?
You need to actually stop living in this fantasy world you made for
yourself and start thinking rationally, then come talk to me!
I don't see people getting away with murder like the murders
of the different christian workers in Bihar and other state, In the U.S.
at least a big fuss would have been made if even 1 religously motivated
murder would happen, and everyone would feel shameful for it, unlike
certain political parties in India who would have felt they had it coming!
You my friend have been reading too much trash from nazis the RSS and VHP,
do not talk to me of these fantasies you perpertrate!
>
>
ramesh
S.L. wrote:
> Just like Adam and Eve existed.
> Noah's Arch. and all those billions of life froms to be transported in a
> boat.
> The Earth was created 4000 years ago. (ask Darwin!)
> Just like Virgin Mary! Immaculate conception.
> Jesus walked on water.
> Resurrection.
> etc,....
>
But no christian wants to demolish any hindu temple where Virgin Mary is
supposed to have farted or Noah had defecated. Hindus are free to believe in
Rama's birth place, or Shivas or third leg:) or whatever if they refrain from
breaking others places of worship.
Jim K Jacob
You're in need of deep mental treatment,
Do us all a favor, get some medical help
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Guess what?
> If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike. go stay in another
> (Christian)country.! There you can pay homage to your previous Colonial
> Masters!
> ______________________________________________________
> >> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
> >> >At least here is the U.S. justice would be done, as these are cases of
> >> >intolerance, and yes I would call those organizations fascists!
> >> >Oh and I don't think I see these organizations physically and
> >> >politically harassing other religions on a national scale as
> >> >i see your buddies there doing!
> >> >
> >> >You seem like one of those people that like to look the other
> >> >way when its a minority being harassed, come one day these
> >> >people will come after you too, so don't be so flippant!
> >> >
> >> >On 23 Jul 1998, Saurabh Jang wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Big deal. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you have
> to
> >> >> label every dispute a case of fascists harassing innocent Christians.
> >> >> When "community organizations" in the US raise objections to Hindu
> >> >> festivals such as Diwali or raise concerns about the building of Sikh
> >> temples
> >> >> (both cases recently happened in the US) you don't call them fascists
> do
> >> >> you?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Saurabh
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
Prem Thomas
S.L. wrote:
> Just like Adam and Eve existed.
> Noah's Arch. and all those billions of life froms to be transported in a
> boat.
> The Earth was created 4000 years ago. (ask Darwin!)
> Just like Virgin Mary! Immaculate conception.
> Jesus walked on water.
> Resurrection.
> etc,....
Sensitive chap, aren't you, "S.L."??
Saurabh Jang
: you are either quite deluded or living in a fantasy
: world to make comparisons like that with the U.S.
: Are the Muslims in the U.S. natives who have lived there
: for a over a thousand years? Was India United as a whole
: before 1947 ? Are we not basically a collection of different
: groups of cultures peoples and religions?
: Are not Jews represented in the U.S. govt far beyond their numbers?
: You need to actually stop living in this fantasy world you made for
: yourself and start thinking rationally, then come talk to me!
I don't know where to begin poking holes in your arguments. If your claim is
that Muslims are not "long standing natives" of the US, then let us consider
American Indians, or as they are ironically called, "Native Americans".
How many Native American cabinet members has the US had in its over 200
years history of the Presidential form of government? If you are presenting
the Jews as an example of minorities who have prospered, choose a different
example. Jews are hardly the minorities with the greatest long time
presence. The Japanese have been here even longer and Blacks even
longer. Blacks have been given practically significant voting rights
only in recent history.
Your contention that India as a country did not exist before 1947 is
pathetic beyond belief in terms of its ignorance of history. Your
explanation about "are we not a collection of ..." holds even more true
for the USA than for India. So why don't you come out of your
missionary inspired sterotypes of India and then "come talk to
me"? People like you are only reinforcing sterotypes of fundamentalist
Christians as being people who lack an appreciation for the history and unity
of India, a fifth column for the British occupiers of the past
(under whose occupation most of the present day Indian Chrsitians can
derive the start of their Christian heritage), and a fifth column for
Chrisitian missionaries bent on converting Hindus through unethical means
in modern India.
: I don't see people getting away with murder like the murders
: of the different christian workers in Bihar and other state, In the U.S.
: at least a big fuss would have been made if even 1 religously motivated
: murder would happen, and everyone would feel shameful for it, unlike
: certain political parties in India who would have felt they had it coming!
: You my friend have been reading too much trash from nazis the RSS and VHP,
: do not talk to me of these fantasies you perpertrate!
I remeber that when a few Chrisitian convent school teachers were raped
in Ghaziabad, a whole lot of hell was raised in the media including the
state DD unit. I keep hearing about how Christians in Bihar are getting
murdered (BTW, the BJP is only recently making inroads into Bihar, so
blaming the Sangh Parivar is simply an act of ignorance) but don't see
any hard statistics. When it comes to religiously and politically
motivated murders, the Sangh Parivar has been at the receiving end,
especially in states such as Kerela. People like you have no respect for
democracy and freedom when you label the RSS and VHP as being
Nazis. Not only are you demeaning the victims of the holocaust by invoking
the bogey of the Holocaust (an act which justly weighs heavily on the
conscience of fundamentalist Christians) to defame an organisation you
oppose purely on ideological and religious grounds you are using the
tactics used by Hitler in repeating a lie many times to give it the
appearance of fact. What could be more ironic than a Chrsitian convert
using Hitlerian/Nazi style propaganda tactics against groups he accuses of
being Nazis?!
I was quite intellectually honest in noting that the dispute between the VHP
and the Christians in this case derived as much from ideological
opposition as from civic issues, and hoped that the side with the
best legal case might win. You however have reverted to the familiar
Hitlerian and Commie tactic of the Big Lie. Shame on you!
Saurabh
S.L.
Your ravings and rantings are getting extremely annoying........
Your are constantly complaining about a country that has been so tolerant
and open minded to all religions for centuries. (including the Jews, Parsis,
Muslims, and Christians. )
It is so ironic, that maybe you should go to Pakistan and stay there as a
Christian. We know what happened to the fate of one bishop there recently.
I guess, you are too afraid to take on the Muslims!
You know what ?
Maybe then, you will wise up and shut up and stop this "We the Christians
are victim crap"
There is only one Christian in this group I think, that I have respect for
and that is Mr.Ranjeet Matthews. At least he has a great deal of knowledge
of Hinduism and he isn't fanatic like you and your sidekick - Perpetually
obsessed Mr. Prem Thomas.
Jim K Jacob
On 26 Jul 1998, Saurabh Jang wrote:
> Jim K Jacob (jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
> : Oh Justice will be done in the U.S. my friend,
> : you are either quite deluded or living in a fantasy
> : world to make comparisons like that with the U.S.
> : Are the Muslims in the U.S. natives who have lived there
> : for a over a thousand years? Was India United as a whole
> : before 1947 ? Are we not basically a collection of different
> : groups of cultures peoples and religions?
> : Are not Jews represented in the U.S. govt far beyond their numbers?
> : You need to actually stop living in this fantasy world you made for
> : yourself and start thinking rationally, then come talk to me!
>
> I don't know where to begin poking holes in your arguments. If your claim is
> that Muslims are not "long standing natives" of the US, then let us consider
> American Indians, or as they are ironically called, "Native Americans".
> How many Native American cabinet members has the US had in its over 200
> years history of the Presidential form of government?
Poking holes, where, I see only one hole that needs to plugged, your
mouth
Are we talking of past history? we are talking about the present
0 and people here are elected into positions as we are a democracy,
native
americans, unfortunately due to past racism and prejudice, only make a
miniscule of the population of the U.S., thus not having electoral
clout. They do have political clout, if you deny that, then sorry I
cannot penetrate your fantasy world. In "present day", present now, you
know what that means I hope, Native americans do enjoy considerable
clout and respect far out of their numbers, though they do deserve more
due to past sins by the U.S., but we are talking of the present day
again, try to keep it real o.k!
> If you are presenting
> the Jews as an example of minorities who have prospered, choose a different
> example. Jews are hardly the minorities with the greatest long time
> presence.
Well you were talking of poking holes, I see plenty here to poke
at. How are Jews not a minority? You had said before that muslims were
outnumbering Jews in this country? Are you contradicting yourself?
Jews have a well established history in the U.S. and are politically
very powerful and represented despite them being around 2% of the
population, sorry see no point to your argument here, lets move on.
> The Japanese have been here even longer and Blacks even
> longer. Blacks have been given practically significant voting rights
> only in recent history.
Japanese have been here longer than the Jews? thats a new one, is
somebody rewriting history books, and the rest us don't know about it?
Sorry Saurabh no dice, Japanese were the victims of racism in the past,
but their prescence here is not ancient, and their numbers only
substantial on the west coast and Hawaii, where, oh no this is going
to burst your bubble, they have been quite politically well
represented, as there were numerous congressman of Japanese descent.
Blacks have been dealt a raw deal, but compared to other countries,
African americans are the most progressive in the world, they are
quite well represented in government and it will be any day now when
there will be a black president, sorry no dice Saurabh, where are
these holes you were supposed to be poking?
> Your contention that India as a country did not exist before 1947 is
> pathetic beyond belief in terms of its ignorance of history. Your
> explanation about "are we not a collection of ..." holds even more true
> for the USA than for India.
How is my contention "pathetic"? Tell me which country or empire
united India into one ( other than the british as that was still
split up into princley states) before 1947? Tell us of this fantasy
empire or country that no one but you has ever heard of Saurabh.
Oh and you did not like my statement of how we are a collection of
different cultures peoples and religions? How does this hold more
true for the U.S.? Does each different state of the U.S. speak
a different language? Cannot a texan relate to a new yorker better
than a tamilian and a punjabi? So the rest of us Saurabh would like
to know where is the wonderful knowledge of the world coming from
that the rest of us don't know about. No personal revisions of
history accepted!
> So why don't you come out of your
> missionary inspired sterotypes of India and then "come talk to
> me"? People like you are only reinforcing sterotypes of fundamentalist
> Christians as being people who lack an appreciation for the history and unity
> of India, a fifth column for the British occupiers of the past
> (under whose occupation most of the present day Indian Chrsitians can
> derive the start of their Christian heritage), and a fifth column for
> Chrisitian missionaries bent on converting Hindus through unethical means
> in modern India.
What missionary inspired stereotypes are you talking about? All of
my knowledge is coming from legitamate history books, magazines
and even indian newspapers such as the Hindu and such, where
is your info coming from? I don't remeber kerala being part of
some past pan-indian empire, where are you coming up with this,
dreams?
Christians in india are some of the most patriotic and indian of
indians in India, what is your hate for them? Why this paranoia,
You just seem to get off splitting a whole country up dont' you?
Thank God their is a majority of saner people in India.
> : I don't see people getting away with murder like the murders
> : of the different christian workers in Bihar and other state, In the U.S.
> : at least a big fuss would have been made if even 1 religously motivated
> : murder would happen, and everyone would feel shameful for it, unlike
> : certain political parties in India who would have felt they had it coming!
> : You my friend have been reading too much trash from nazis the RSS and VHP,
> : do not talk to me of these fantasies you perpertrate!
>
> I remeber that when a few Chrisitian convent school teachers were raped
> in Ghaziabad, a whole lot of hell was raised in the media including the
> state DD unit. I keep hearing about how Christians in Bihar are getting
> murdered (BTW, the BJP is only recently making inroads into Bihar, so
> blaming the Sangh Parivar is simply an act of ignorance) but don't see
> any hard statistics. When it comes to religiously and politically
> motivated murders, the Sangh Parivar has been at the receiving end,
> especially in states such as Kerela. People like you have no respect for
> democracy and freedom when you label the RSS and VHP as being
> Nazis. Not only are you demeaning the victims of the holocaust by invoking
> the bogey of the Holocaust (an act which justly weighs heavily on the
> conscience of fundamentalist Christians) to defame an organisation you
> oppose purely on ideological and religious grounds you are using the
> tactics used by Hitler in repeating a lie many times to give it the
> appearance of fact. What could be more ironic than a Chrsitian convert
> using Hitlerian/Nazi style propaganda tactics against groups he accuses of
> being Nazis?!
Actually I don't need to "accuse" these fundamentalists groups of
being Nazis, they actually claimed a big respect for Hitler, and
alot of these groups wanted to side with the Nazis in World War 2,
Now who is giving Insult to the memory of the victims of the
Holocaust?! You support groups that were in love with Nazi ways and
thought of them as their "Aryan" brothers, so again whats your
argument? No holes poked in my argument yet, lets move on.
> I was quite intellectually honest in noting that the dispute between the VHP
> and the Christians in this case derived as much from ideological
> opposition as from civic issues, and hoped that the side with the
> best legal case might win. You however have reverted to the familiar
> Hitlerian and Commie tactic of the Big Lie. Shame on you!
>
> Saurabh
You intellectually honest? You have been foisting off this shoddy
arguments of false history false knowledge of other countries and
peoples as something supposed to be called the truth, and I have
shown repeatedly what a Big Liar you are, Shame on YOU!
VHP is not known for being a fuzzy cozy "community" organization
with" civic issues", sorry no holes poked yet,
so please spare us these mutterings, and stuff that hole of yours
that nothing but nonsense is coming out!
>
>
Jim K Jacob
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Well, Mr. Hindu Hater!
> Your ravings and rantings are getting extremely annoying........
When have I ever said i hate hindus? Unlike you you who as perpetually
said and show your hate for non-hindus!
> Your are constantly complaining about a country that has been so tolerant
> and open minded to all religions for centuries. (including the Jews, Parsis,
> Muslims, and Christians. )
Well seeing it wasn't a country but a collection of different
countries I must protest. I am quite thankful to the different
peoples of India who have been tolerant of other religions not
their own, but seeing as such that Hindusim wasn't a unified
religion, but a collection of different religions, what would
another religion or two added to the mix matter?
Also different religions were tolerated by the whoever governed
as long as they followed strict guidelines, so they weren't
basically free to do whatever they wanted especially if they were
tiny minority of whatever place they lived.
> It is so ironic, that maybe you should go to Pakistan and stay there as a
> Christian. We know what happened to the fate of one bishop there recently.
> I guess, you are too afraid to take on the Muslims!
What does Pakistan have to do with this? I don't see your argument
as you are saying because christians or even other people don't have
it as bad as a people of another place, then they should swallow the
"lesser" injustices since it is better than another place? So if I
am killed in Pakistan more, I should be thankful that I am killed less
in India? If this is true I am glad I live in the U.S. where any
injustice is punished and we don't use the argument " well you don't
have it as bad as the other place, so just take it"
You need to seek some serious help S.L.
> You know what ?
> Maybe then, you will wise up and shut up and stop this "We the Christians
> are victim crap"
You know what?
Get some psychological help,
and we won't have you committed!
> There is only one Christian in this group I think, that I have respect for
> and that is Mr.Ranjeet Matthews. At least he has a great deal of knowledge
> of Hinduism and he isn't fanatic like you and your sidekick - Perpetually
> obsessed Mr. Prem Thomas.
Oh my God you like one christian? Well lets have a party for you
now, thats like a white guy saying well I like this one black guy,
but he agrees with everything I say unlike those other "black people"
Prem is too cool, I wouldn't call him my sidekick, as he usually is
giving "Jai Maharaj" a trashing, just like I'm giving you!
S.L.
that you are still intellectually colonized.
But that is expected, since you must have read "Indian History" books
written by the oh so biased British!
Anyways, here is the information that will rectify your ignorance:
322 BC: Chandragupta Maurya captures Magadha - Establishes First Indian
Empire
Chandragupta, with the help Chanakya (Kautilya), who is also known as the
Indian Machiavelli, destroyed the Nanda rulers of Magadha and established
the Mauryan empire. It is said that Chanakya met Chandragupta in the Vindhya
forest, after being insulted by the Nanda king.
Alexander's invasion prompted Indians to develop a centralised state.
Chandragupta declared war and defeated Selucus Nicator, the Macedonian ruler
of the Northwestern territories captured by Alexander the Great.
Along with the the astute advice of Chanakya, Chandragupta also seized
Punjab, Kabul, Khandahar, Gandhara and Persia from Seluces.
"Selucus failed and had to conclude a treaty with Chandragupta by which he
surrendered a large territory including, in the opinion of certain writers,
the satrapies of Paropanisadai (Kabul), Aria (Herat), Arachosia (Qanadahar)
and Gedrosia (Baluchistan), in return for 500 elephants. The treaty was
probably cemented by a marriage contract. A Greek envoy was accredited to
the Court of Pataliputra."
- An Advanced History of India
by RC Majumdar, HC Raychaudhri & Kalinkar Datta
The most important result of this treaty was that Chandragupta's fame spread
far and wide and his empire was recognised as a great power in the western
countries. The kings of Egypt and Syria sent ambassadors to the Mauryan
Court.
Mauryan Administration
Maurya empire was the first really large and powerful centralised state in
India.
It was very well governed, with tempered autocracy at the top and democracy
at the city and village levels. Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador at the
court of Chandragupta Maurya in Pataliputra, had expressed his admiration
for the efficient administration of the empire. His book 'Indica' is a
collection of comments of other Roman & Greek travelers, and Megasthenes
wrote about the prosperity of the Mauryan cities.
He further reported that agriculture was healthy, water abundant and mineral
wealth was in plenty. Speaking of the general prosperity, Megasthenes wrote,
"the Indians, dressed in bright and rich colors, they liberally used
ornaments and gems." He also spoke of the division of society according to
occupation and the large number of religious sects and foreigners in the
empire.
Chandragupta Maurya's son Bindusara became the new Mauryan Emperor by
inheriting an empire including the Hindukush, Narmada, Vindhyas, Mysore,
Bihar, Bengal, Orissa, Assam, Baluchistan & Afghanistan.
Later, Ashoka extended the Maurya Empire to the whole of India except the
deep south and the south-east, reaching out even into Central Asia.
http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/chandra.html
______________________________________________________
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
S.L.
wiped out from the face of these United States.
Only a token few are left, dwindling away in reservations, like animals in a
zoo.
You call that "prime real estate" for the Native Indians?
Gee, you say "injustice is punished" in the U.S.!
You sir, need to get your brain examined.
_________________________________________________
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
If this is true I am glad I live in the U.S. where any
> injustice is punished
____________________________________________________
Mathews J. Thundyil
>
> You intellectually honest? You have been foisting off this shoddy
> arguments of false history false knowledge of other countries and
> peoples as something supposed to be called the truth, and I have
> shown repeatedly what a Big Liar you are, Shame on YOU!
> VHP is not known for being a fuzzy cozy "community" organization
> with" civic issues", sorry no holes poked yet,
Jim,
Like you, I have assidously attempted to keep the secular
sanity on these newsgroups when falsehoods and misinformation
has been spewed by the likes of Maharaj, S.L. and their
mindless sidekicks. They have been joined in the recent past
by personalities like Jang, and most recently, Trivedi.
The common thread that links these individuals is their
"brainwashed" view of India as Hindu. The other thread that
runs through these Hindu fundamentalists is their allegiance
to each other. You will notice how they rarely respond to
falsehoods posted by each other, but are quick to rise to the
slightest mistake in a rebuttal.
Deliberately concocted mistruths are repeated with reckless
abandon. You surely recollect the one about the reasons behind
the higher average population growth rate of muslims and
hindus are regularly coughed up by these groups. Of course
they do not bother to compare and contrast the effect
that socio-economic indicators have on population growth.
We have had Mother Teresa slandered because of her religion.
You will always notice how quick they are to point out that
"Hindu nationalist" == Indian Patriot
an opinion assiduously cultivated by the BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena,
Bajrang Dal and other assorted hate mongers. In point of fact,
these groups are as divisive and as deleterious to the
fabric of Indian society as the JKLF, any assorted Khalistani
group, or any separatist group from the North East.
You will also notice their mindless sycophancy toward anything
Indian, no matter how improper. They will justify petrol
bearing fruits and vilify scientist that dare suggest
quackery and fraudulence. They will decorate scientists who
mindlessly squander public money, while vilifying right
thinking people asking hard questions about spending of tax
payer money. In their minds, criticism of whatever nature
is "unpatriotic", and sycophancy is to be rewarded. One is
reminded of the old saw, "Patriotism: The last resort of the
scoundrel."
Whenever any member of the organization slips up and commits
a politically incorrect faux-pas, such as we witnessed in Delhi
recently regarding sacramental wine, or in numerous occassions
involving Bal Thackeray, Madan Lal Khurana, Sadvi Rithambara
and any other assorted Hindu Fundamentalist -- these fellows
are quick to retort that these are "personal" views and
not the party line. Or they will commandeer the conversation
trying to prove that Hinduism is a tolerant religion, and
that intolerance of any sort is "impossible" in Hinduism --
what they, ironically, fail to notice is that Thackeray
is not any more a Hindu than Jinnah was a Muslim.
Whenever, one points out the inconsistencies between the words
and the actions of the BJP (the Babri demolition being a
case in point), the other line of argument is that other
communities must be prepared to accept the majority exercising
their rights. No matter that no-one in the nation, irrespective
of his religion should have the right of criminal trespass and
destruction of property. No matter that the "majority" does not
equal greater than a quarter of the voting population. No matter
that at every opportunity, the BJP has shown its disregard for
the sentiments of every minority community, while continuing
to pay lip-service to "secularism."
No objective person can deny that the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra
represents everything that a freedom lover hates. No objective
analyst can fail to notice the officially-patronised
extra-legal actions of the Shiv Sena and the BJP. Yet, you have
individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the destruction
of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
One wonders if these individuals have any idea of the notions
of criminal behavior. And of "freedom" of which they have suddenly
become advocates for. I have no doubt that they do not.
And as a result, I have consigned Saurabh Jang, Anil Trivedi,
Jai Maharaj, S.L., and others to the dung heap that is a killfile.
I would suggest that you do the same, hard as it is to ignore
the mistruths and lies that are propagated. Let them condemn
themselves.
Matt Thundyil
S.L.
Yet, you have individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the destruction
> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
Lets hope next time M.F.Husain does a portrait of
Jesus and Virgin Mary in the Nude!
Wonder if your feelings will be hurt? I wonder what the Catholic Church and
the Pope in the Vatican will have to say?
Mathews J. Thundyil
>[...]
>Chandragupta Maurya's son Bindusara became the new Mauryan Emperor by
>inheriting an empire including the Hindukush, Narmada, Vindhyas, Mysore,
>Bihar, Bengal, Orissa, Assam, Baluchistan & Afghanistan.
>
>Later, Ashoka extended the Maurya Empire to the whole of India except the
>deep south and the south-east, reaching out even into Central Asia.
Reading comprehension is not exactly your strong point
is it?
Matt Thundyil
Srivatsan Seshadri
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
Well, I have been watching this NG very closely for a while and I mustIf you really go by Prem's theory, Jai Maharaj has more names than what you or I or anybody else can think of.
say that we should leave all the COMEDIANS -- Jai Maharaj aka Jay
Stevens, so-called S.L (or is he the second avatar of Jay Stevens),
Trivedi and finally the spineless Jang -- alone. You do not have to
throw them into the killfile, they will kill themselves with their
twisted and idiotic comments. If they are gone, who is there to provide
some entertainment?Joe
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote:
> Jim K Jacob <jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > You intellectually honest? You have been foisting off this
> shoddy
> > arguments of false history false knowledge of other countries
> and
> > peoples as something supposed to be called the truth, and I
> have
> > shown repeatedly what a Big Liar you are, Shame on YOU!
> > VHP is not known for being a fuzzy cozy "community"
> organization
> > with" civic issues", sorry no holes poked yet,
>
> extra-legal actions of the Shiv Sena and the BJP. Yet, you
> have
> individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the destruction
> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
>
Mathews J. Thundyil
>Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgeni$q...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
>> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
>> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
>> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
>
>Lets hope next time M.F.Husain does a portrait of
>
> Jesus and Virgin Mary in the Nude!
>
>Wonder if your feelings will be hurt? I wonder what the Catholic Church and
>the Pope in the Vatican will have to say?
Look, who cares what the Pope in the Vatican has to say, as long
as he does not incite people to commit crimes of whatever nature.
See, freedom of expression cuts both ways, but it does not
permit one to incite the commission of a crime.
Matt Thundyil
Jim K Jacob
As do I since I knew of this empire already,
My question is, did this empire strecth all the way to the tip of India?
That has been my statement all along, at times I agree large parts
of India were under one empire, so was the Soviet Union, and even
large parts of Europe, as they are even now trying to unite under
one banner, but only with the consent of all peoples and respect for
all the different groups of people, knowing that they are different
countries and nations, though I don't see the Soviet Union getting back
together.
I have never heard of a Indian empire that strecthed all the Way from the
North to the tip of the South, thats what I mean that India, as a whole
nation never existed till after 1947.
I'm glad you know your history and this ancient history at that,
as many people ignore it, though I find it the most interesting.
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Chandragupta Maurya's son Bindusara became the new Mauryan Emperor by
> inheriting an empire including the Hindukush, Narmada, Vindhyas, Mysore,
> Bihar, Bengal, Orissa, Assam, Baluchistan & Afghanistan.
>
> Later, Ashoka extended the Maurya Empire to the whole of India except the
> deep south and the south-east, reaching out even into Central Asia.
>
> http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/chandra.html
> ______________________________________________________
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Jim K Jacob
now, they are a noble and proud race, and presently asserting themselves,
both politically and economically(resorts gambling places etc..) It is
to do them a disservice to ignore this as they have made great strides
in the face of Adversity, but despite the shameful past, the present day
U.S. is a place I'm sure they do not mind if not thankful to be in.
The U.S. I'm sure is thankful to have them also as they have contributed
greatly to this country far beyond their numbers and despite the horrible
things done to them, helping to make this country one of the best places
to live in the world.
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> really, last time I checked the Native Americans, a noble proud race, were
> wiped out from the face of these United States.
> Only a token few are left, dwindling away in reservations, like animals in a
> zoo.
> You call that "prime real estate" for the Native Indians?
>
> Gee, you say "injustice is punished" in the U.S.!
> You sir, need to get your brain examined.
> _________________________________________________
>
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Mo
Well, Mr. Hindu Hater!
Your ravings and rantings are getting extremely annoying........
Your are constantly complaining about a country that has been so
tolerant
and open minded to all religions for centuries. (including the Jews,
Parsis,
Muslims, and Christians. )
It is so ironic, that maybe you should go to Pakistan and stay there
as a
Christian. We know what happened to the fate of one bishop there
recently.
I guess, you are too afraid to take on the Muslims!
You know what ?
Maybe then, you will wise up and shut up and stop this "We the
Christians
are victim crap"
There is only one Christian in this group I think, that I have
respect for
and that is Mr.Ranjeet Matthews. At least he has a great deal of
knowledge
of Hinduism and he isn't fanatic like you and your sidekick -
Perpetually
obsessed Mr. Prem Thomas.
____________________________________________________
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>Guess What?
>You're in need of deep mental treatment,
>Do us all a favor, get some medical help
>
>On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
>
>> Guess what?
>> If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike. go stay in another
>> (Christian)country.! There you can pay homage to your previous Colonial
>> Masters!
>> ______________________________________________________
>> >> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Mo
wrote:
>ews have a well established history in the U.S. and are politically
very powerful and represented despite them being around 2% of the
population,<
under the present first past the post system can get elected in
numbers. The same as Sikhs in India -2% - but concentrated in one
area. Muslims are diverse in India apart from Kashmir .
Native Red Indians are spread all over USA and so have no
influence. Pakistan has disenfranchised its minorites by giving them a
few token seats and not letting them vote for the local candidate. It
can make amends by reserving say 6 seats for Christians -3% - but
letting them vote locally and for the Christian candidates.
So if one Chrisitan gets elected locally the PM has only to
nominate another 5.
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca
say that we should leave all the COMEDIANS -- Jai Maharaj aka Jay
Stevens, so-called S.L (or is he the second avatar of Jay Stevens),
throw them into the killfile, they will kill themselves with their
twisted and idiotic comments. If they are gone, who is there to provide
some entertainment?
Joe
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote:
> Jim K Jacob <jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > You intellectually honest? You have been foisting off this
> shoddy
> > arguments of false history false knowledge of other countries
> and
> > peoples as something supposed to be called the truth, and I
> have
> > shown repeatedly what a Big Liar you are, Shame on YOU!
> > VHP is not known for being a fuzzy cozy "community"
> organization
> > with" civic issues", sorry no holes poked yet,
>
> extra-legal actions of the Shiv Sena and the BJP. Yet, you
> have
> individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the destruction
> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
>
Prem Thomas
S.L. wrote:
> Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgeni$q...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
> Yet, you have individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the destruction
> > of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
> > notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
> > was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
> _________________________________________________
>
> Lets hope next time M.F.Husain does a portrait of
>
> Jesus and Virgin Mary in the Nude!
>
> Wonder if your feelings will be hurt? I wonder what the Catholic Church and
> the Pope in the Vatican will have to say?
It's been done already, and nobody was killed. Also, do you recall the play,
"Jesus Christ, Superstar"? Despite all of the protests from the "influential"
Christian organizations, including the Vatican, it was never banned, and ran
for years. Encore recently did a re-run of the movie.
Prem Thomas
S.L. wrote:
> Your lack of knowledge about Indian history is truly mind boggling! It shows
> that you are still intellectually colonized.
> But that is expected, since you must have read "Indian History" books
> written by the oh so biased British!
>
> Anyways, here is the information that will rectify your ignorance:
>
> 322 BC: Chandragupta Maurya captures Magadha - Establishes First Indian
> Empire
I suggest you take a look at the map of Chandragupta's empire, and study it's
borders. Claims of an Indian empire, as related to territorial claims, are as
relevant as claims of a French nation of Europe based on Napoleon's conquests,
or an Italian one based on Caesar's or.........
Prem Thomas
Mo wrote:
> Pakistan has disenfranchised its minorites by giving them a
> few token seats and not letting them vote for the local candidate. It
> can make amends by reserving say 6 seats for Christians -3% - but
> letting them vote locally and for the Christian candidates.
> So if one Chrisitan gets elected locally the PM has only to
> nominate another 5.
That's an issue for Pakistani Christians, and Christian rights groups, not
for Indians(especially those who have no particular sympathy for them) or,
as Jay alleges, an Israeli Hindu. This issue is raised by Indians only as
a quid pro quo for Pakistani readers posting similar articles on the
treatment of Christians in India. Neither side seems to really care about
minority rights, it would appear.
Prem Thomas
Srivatsan Seshadri wrote:
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
Well, I have been watching this NG very closely for a while and I mustIf you really go by Prem's theory, Jai Maharaj has more names than what you or I or anybody else can think of.
say that we should leave all the COMEDIANS -- Jai Maharaj aka Jay
Stevens, so-called S.L (or is he the second avatar of Jay Stevens),
True to a large extent, but "S.L." isn't one of Jay's aliases, he just one of his bumbling followers. For those of you new or relatively new to the newsgroups, it was observed several years ago that the writing styles of "Jai Maharaj" varied distinctly, sometimes even in the same thread, leading to the speculation that Jay was employing the "services" of ghost-writers. He appears to have abandoned that tactic now,with the proliferation of anonymous and free e-mail services, and with his expanded flock of misguided youth fed from the same "Fountain of Truth".
However, what I was pointing out to Srivatsan were the articles archived at the aforementioned "Truth Fountain(s)", whose authors strongly resemble each other-and Jay.
P.V.Mannil
"S.L." <an...@erols.com> wrote:
>Guess what?
>If you don't like the Sangh Parivar - Take a hike. go stay in another
>(Christian)country.! There you can pay homage to your previous
Colonial
>Masters!
Listen you ignorant shit-for-brains, christianity came to India long
before it went to countries like UK and USA. Countries that you feel
are Western christian countries. There was an established
(Eastern)church in India (Kerala) long before it went to Europe.
Besides if you did your schooling in India chances are that you went to
a catholic school.
P.V.Mannil
"S.L." <an...@erols.com> wrote:
>Just like Adam and Eve existed.
>Noah's Arch. and all those billions of life froms to be transported in
a
>boat.
>The Earth was created 4000 years ago. (ask Darwin!)
>Just like Virgin Mary! Immaculate conception.
>Jesus walked on water.
>Resurrection.
>etc,....
in Amar Chithra Katha might make it more believable.
Just to recap on the Virgin Mary issue, its not only the Christians who
believe in it, I believe the Koran also tells of Mary's immaculate
conception.
S.L.
I believe all religions will get you to God.
No one religion has the monopoly over God.
I'm sure even Mahatma (great soul) Gandhi though not a Chritian must be in
heaven for saving India from the clutches of the brutal self centred
British!
What I abhor, is the conversion of poor Hindus, done with deceit.
That changes their culture instantly and destroys the precious cultural
diverstiy that has evolved for centuries.
Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the
disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners,
language, food and drink".
"If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all
proselytising".
"I resent the overtures made to Harijans."
"Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the
fountain of truth."
(Source: Collected Works, volume 46 & 61)
Speaking of diverstiy--I have been across the the whole of U.S. many times.
I went from the east coast to the south of California.
I saw the stifling landscape everywhere. same stores, same fast food
resturants, same highways signs, same clothes people wear, same language,
same religions, same cookie cutter houses and suburbs.
It was so boring and deading to the senses.
It is the "geography of Nowhere"
Guess what?
Nope I went to a Parsi school.
And they are the most gentle, and cultured people I know.
too bad they don't run more schools..........
______________________________________
P.V.Mannil wrote in message <6phlu0$dis...@salford.ac.uk>...
>In article <6pak60$ei3$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
S.L.
Did a Muslim or any non Christian write the play?
why is that Husain work should not be banned but Godse's play be banned.
both have equal rights.
Is that fair? can you answer that?
Freedom of speech should be equal and fair to all.
I personally believe, that both these issues should be allowed. even if they
do hurt peoples sentiments.
I have not condemned Husain for his work. Though he does have a poor taste
and seeks publicity.
He should have his freedom just as Dalvi should have his right to make a
play about Godse.
_______________________________________________________
Prem Thomas wrote in message <35BC23B8...@ged.net>...
>It's been done already, and nobody was killed. Also, do you recall the
play,
>"Jesus Christ, Superstar"? Despite all of the protests from the
"influential"
>Christian organizations, including the Vatican, it was never banned, and
ran
>for years.
>Prem
Mo
people are never satisfied and will always complain of discrimination
especially if they happen to be one God only silly stuff monotheists..
Mo
everyone wearing tatty jeans , drinking sugar water coke and swearing
every second word and watching low IQ movies ?
Conversion from Hinduism to Christianity or Islam does
destroy the culture and diversity of India. The Bajrang Dal has asked
all Hindus marrying out to contact them first (asianage July 27) so
that they can advise them of the risk and prevent disaster.
India would have been a much more peaceful place if the
Islamist Sufis and Aurangzeb hadnt succeeded in converting so many to
Islam. Pakistan would have been happy Hindus instead of constantly
bickering Muslims..
Mo
Kashmir , Ashoka and Chandragupt and the Marathas/Sikhs may not have
felt any need to conquer Hindu kingdoms of Tamil Nadu or Kerala as
they were not threats , just like the Germans didnt bother conquering
Switzerland..
pas...@my-dejanews.com
free_...@mantra.com wrote:
>
>
> S.L. wrote:
>
> > Is that why you are making such a fuss about the Ban on Godse play.
> > Whatever happened about to freedom of speech???????????
> > India is a democractic country.
> > We are not a communist regime.
> > Nor are we supposed to place a "fatwa" on any ones head.
> > Its truly undemocratic! So why the uproar!
>
> Because, Jay's little workhorse helpmate, Matt was asking a pertinent
> question: why has the Sangh parivar only now discovered "freedom of speech"
> as a right? Incidentally, you may also want to address the issue of why Star
> TV is being hounded in Indian courts: is "freedom of speech" a privilege
> reserved for the "chosen" few? As I said before, what's good for the goose
> should be good for the gander........
>
> Prem
I recall that 'Jain TV' (owned by some one from the Sangh Parivar) which was
one of the earliest 'satellite' TV channels after the new policy, broadcast
'adult' movies once a week. The I & B minister may want to explain how that
did not 'corrupt' the Indian Culture.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Jim K Jacob
it was a concession as that was the only way the BJP
could stay in power, so no pats on the back for that.
Jim K Jacob
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> I have no hate against Christianity.
> I believe all religions will get you to God.
> No one religion has the monopoly over God.
> I'm sure even Mahatma (great soul) Gandhi though not a Chritian must be in
> heaven for saving India from the clutches of the brutal self centred
> British!
I am glad that you feel no animosity toward christianity,
though it seems you have animosity toward christians, as you have
said you only like one christian on this group. Gandhi of course will
be in heaven as a lot of christians would agree with you, as we say
in christianity it is by the Grace of God we are saved, the only other
faith that believes in Grace I think is Sikhism, which also believes
salvation is a gift from God.
> What I abhor, is the conversion of poor Hindus, done with deceit.
> That changes their culture instantly and destroys the precious cultural
> diverstiy that has evolved for centuries.
> Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
There has been a lot of misinformation going around that poor
Hindus or whoever are being coverted by deceit. Go ask these
people yourself and you will see it is a personal choice,
Or have people lost that in India also.
As for culture being lost, if you look at the christians of the
world there is not one homogenous christian culture. Whereever
the country those christians are from, their culture is that of
the country of origen, so a egyptian christian has a different
culture than a greek christian and so on, and I see no loss of
cultures there. Christianity is a way of salvation, not a single
culture, but it will influence the culture to be hopefully better
than what it was
> He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the
> disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners,
> language, food and drink".
> "If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all
> proselytising".
> "I resent the overtures made to Harijans."
> "Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the
> fountain of truth."
Why resent overtures made to the Harijans? Do they not have
choices, Are they owned by someone that they cannot make
decisions by themselves? I don't see anybody in the U.S.
saying lets stop all proselytising by Hare Krishnas, because
the people converting cannot make decisions for themselves.
> (Source: Collected Works, volume 46 & 61)
>
> Speaking of diverstiy--I have been across the the whole of U.S. many times.
> I went from the east coast to the south of California.
> I saw the stifling landscape everywhere. same stores, same fast food
> resturants, same highways signs, same clothes people wear, same language,
> same religions, same cookie cutter houses and suburbs.
> It was so boring and deading to the senses.
> It is the "geography of Nowhere"
I don't know where you've been, but the U.S. is one
of the most diverse places on earth,
I suggest go to the cities especially the major cities
and you will see that diversity become more apparent,
Go to New York City and see the diversities of different
Immigrants, see the diversitites of different cultures,
see the scores of old churches synagouges and mosques,
and temples, including a south indian temple that has
been there for almost a hundred years, I think you have
missed out on a lot, next time you go ask somebody,
ask me, and we will tell you where to go, I tell
You the geography of the U.S. is not Nowhere it is
Of Everywhere.
> Guess what?
> Nope I went to a Parsi school.
> And they are the most gentle, and cultured people I know.
> too bad they don't run more schools..........
> ______________________________________
Good for you, as the Parsis are good philanthropists,
but there will be many who will tell you of how
the christian schools have benefitted India greatly,
and not all had bad experiences there,
A lot would actually say that they brought education
to India.
> P.V.Mannil wrote in message <6phlu0$dis...@salford.ac.uk>...
> >In article <6pak60$ei3$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
>
> There was an established
> >(Eastern)church in India (Kerala) long before it went to Europe.
> >Besides if you did your schooling in India chances are that you went to
> >a catholic school.
How I wish more people would know this, then they would
know christianity is a Indian faith as we have been here
at some estimates of close to 2,000 years
>
>
>
Sridhar
>
> What I abhor, is the conversion of poor Hindus, done with deceit.
> That changes their culture instantly and destroys the precious cultural
> diverstiy that has evolved for centuries.
like what ? many of the converts are "untouchables" in hindu culture.
conversion atleast gives them a life, a religion, organises them into
a community with a voice. how can conversion destroy "cultural
diversity" anyway ? if anything, it enriches it .
> Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
perhaps, but they've been selling those goods at a bargain.
>
> He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the
> disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners,
> language, food and drink".
> "If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all
> proselytising".
> "I resent the overtures made to Harijans."
> "Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the
> fountain of truth."
if that has to happen, "upper-caste" hindus must first consider
stopping themselves from trampling on the poorer folk - especially
in rural areas where this is prevalent even today. you can't make a man
eat shit (actually happened) and expect him to thank you for it.
Jim K Jacob
as it should, because they first need to give rights to their
fellow hindus who are low caste, if justice is to be done.
I don't say that a tolerant christian majority in the U.S. "allows"
equal rights even to constantly complaining "minorities", because
they should do it any way, it is the right thing to do!
We do not require the benevolence of the majority, it is what is
right, what should be done anyway, And though India is not perfect
I am thankful that it is better than Pakistan, which can also change
itself, as India can become better.
Let all of us Indians strive to make a better India, not because
of the allowances of some nameless "majority", but because we are
all Indians, fellow country men, and to make India better is the
Right and Just thing to do!
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Mo wrote:
> Whatever the reason at least accept that a tolerant Hindu
> majority allows equal rights even to constantly complaining minorities
> unlike the Islamic Paradise of Pakistan. Sometimes a little thanks
> is much appreciated..
Saurabh Jang
involved you went frothing at the mouth hurling all kinds of baseless
allegations. You have heard the story of the boy who cried wolf all too often
haven't you? The danger with raving fundamentalists like you is that if
indeed a legitimate case of persecution of Chrsitians in India happens,
people will tend to dismiss it as the usual paranoid rantings of
proselytizing Chrsitians.
Jim K Jacob (jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
: Poking holes, where, I see only one hole that needs to plugged, your
: mouth
: Are we talking of past history? we are talking about the present
: 0 and people here are elected into positions as we are a democracy,
: native
: americans, unfortunately due to past racism and prejudice, only make a
: miniscule of the population of the U.S., thus not having electoral
: clout. They do have political clout, if you deny that, then sorry I
: cannot penetrate your fantasy world. In "present day", present now, you
: know what that means I hope, Native americans do enjoy considerable
: clout and respect far out of their numbers, though they do deserve more
: due to past sins by the U.S., but we are talking of the present day
: again, try to keep it real o.k!
How convenient. No where did you say that we are talking of the present.
Even legal cases are decided based on past precedent to a large degree.
And certainly past experience is a good mirror into the present. While
the genocide of the American Indian might have occured in the "past"
(not too far back though) the civil rights movement is of pretty
recent vintage. Despite America being a democracy for over 200 years, Blacks
have been a part of this system only for a few decades.
: Well you were talking of poking holes, I see plenty here to poke
: at. How are Jews not a minority? You had said before that muslims were
: outnumbering Jews in this country? Are you contradicting yourself?
: Jews have a well established history in the U.S. and are politically
: very powerful and represented despite them being around 2% of the
: population, sorry see no point to your argument here, lets move on.
Why don't you register yourself for an ESL course? I never said that
Jews were a minority. Only that they are not the minorities with the
oldest history in the US. A greater percentage of Jews than Japanese are
descendants of those with less period of presence in the US. No one is
denying that America has been exceptionally kind to the Jews as far as
Chrsitian countries go, but that does not prove that all minorities in
America are treated by the mainstream the way Jews are treated.
: Japanese have been here longer than the Jews? thats a new one, is
: somebody rewriting history books, and the rest us don't know about it?
No not really. Why don't you build up a case for when you think we can
think of Jews having arrived in America in significant numbers, and I'll
build up a case for the Japanese having been there for as long, if not
longer. Also please offer some proof such as references or quotes from
books discussing the ethnic history of America. I'll be glad to offer
you the same privilege.
: Sorry Saurabh no dice, Japanese were the victims of racism in the past,
: but their prescence here is not ancient, and their numbers only
There is no ethnic group in the US whose presence is "ancient" other
than the American Indian.
: substantial on the west coast and Hawaii, where, oh no this is going
: to burst your bubble, they have been quite politically well
: represented, as there were numerous congressman of Japanese descent.
How many cabinet members since the history of the American Republic have been
of Japanese descent? If a Japanese dominated locality sends a Japanese
congressman to Capitol Hill that is not a big deal at all and certainly
doesn't prove the stellar track record of America on minority rights.
: > Your contention that India as a country did not exist before 1947 is
: > pathetic beyond belief in terms of its ignorance of history. Your
: > explanation about "are we not a collection of ..." holds even more true
: > for the USA than for India.
Strictly going by your arguments of "stick to the present" why should you
bother about what was the state of the Indian nation in the "past"?
: How is my contention "pathetic"? Tell me which country or empire
: united India into one ( other than the british as that was still
: split up into princley states) before 1947? Tell us of this fantasy
: empire or country that no one but you has ever heard of Saurabh.
The Mauryan empire was pretty big and covered a pretty big portion of the
Indian subcontinent. Besides, you are defining a nation in terms of
strict territorial control under a central power. There is a distinction
between a nation and a state.
: Oh and you did not like my statement of how we are a collection of
: different cultures peoples and religions? How does this hold more
: true for the U.S.? Does each different state of the U.S. speak
: a different language? Cannot a texan relate to a new yorker better
: than a tamilian and a punjabi? So the rest of us Saurabh would like
The US as we know it today was settled by people from England, Ireland,
Germany, Scandinavian countries, etc. each of whom came to this
country speaking their own languages, maintaining their own cultures.
It is only recently that the national and cultural distinctions between
European settlers have been removed when it comes to language and marriage.
(A phenomenon that was necessary to build up a homogeneous group
of undifferentiated whites in order to exercise greater control over
wealth and status). Now as to your question of whether a Texan can relate
to a New Yorker better, that would depend on the two person's in
question wouldn't it? I submit to you that a Texas farm boy would
probably not be able to relate too much to a Russian New York Jew for example.
On the other hand a Tamilian and a Punjabi going to the same college or
working in the same company in India might relate very well to each
other.
: Christians in india are some of the most patriotic and indian of
: indians in India, what is your hate for them? Why this paranoia,
: You just seem to get off splitting a whole country up dont' you?
: Thank God their is a majority of saner people in India.
Why don't you present an example of "hate for them"? I have been quite
carefull to qualify all my generalizations and have been quite honest
about the motivations underlying both parties in the specific dispute we
were discussing.
: Actually I don't need to "accuse" these fundamentalists groups of
: being Nazis, they actually claimed a big respect for Hitler, and
: alot of these groups wanted to side with the Nazis in World War 2,
It was not until after World War II that most of the world came to know
about the Holocaust. WWII was basically a war between colonial and
imperial powers, with the Allied and the Axis powers not really in a
position to claim high moral ground as far as geo-politics of the war
went. In such a situation it made eminent sense for Indian patriots to
side with enemies of the colonial occupiers (an enemy's enemy is your friend)
whether they might have been Germans or Japanese. So if a Subhash Chandra
Vose sought help from Hitler or from the Japanese that does not make him a
Jew killer or a person who subscribed to Nazi ideology. Please give an
example of the RSS as a whole belonging to the Hitler fan club before
you accuse someone of being a Nazi. If the RSS can be accused of being Nazis
then the Jews are even more justified in calling the Pope at that time
a Nazi. Not only that, most European Christians should be called Nazis because
it was the widespread anti-Semitism in Europe that created the conditions for
Nazis to gain power in Europe. Will you please absolve us Hindus of carrying
the burden of a guilty conscience when it comes to killing and discriminating
against Jews?
: Holocaust?! You support groups that were in love with Nazi ways and
: thought of them as their "Aryan" brothers, so again whats your
: argument? No holes poked in my argument yet, lets move on.
Another example of argument by lying and baseless slander. How long is
your nose Pinocchio?
Saurabh
Mathews J. Thundyil
>What I abhor, is the conversion of poor Hindus, done with deceit.
>That changes their culture instantly and destroys the precious cultural
>diverstiy that has evolved for centuries.
It is not enough to read, it is important to understand.
Regurgitating might get you degrees in India, but not inthe
school of life.
As long as a person is not "forced" to change his opinion
without his *consent*, there is nothing wrong with what
Christian evangelists do. Now, you may not agree with the
religion they tout, or their methods (I don't), but as
long as they are not holding a gun to a person's head and
forcing him to "convert" they are not breaking any reasonable
law.
Now, if you abhor "conversion" through deceit, you will have
to explain your stand on the Hindu fundamentalist "reconversion"
agenda... As to how that is any different from what you
abhor in Christian Evangelists.
Gandhi was a man of principles, he had only one standard -- not
two like you do. He did not approve of the concept of conversion,
either done by Christians or *any other group*. Because,
philosophically, and for all practical and fundamental purposes,
THEY ARE THE SAME ABHORRENT CONCEPT.
The corollary, of course, is that if you accept "reconversion"
you must accept "conversion". So which is it?
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
>It's been done already, and nobody was killed. Also, do you recall the play,
>"Jesus Christ, Superstar"? Despite all of the protests from the "influential"
>Christian organizations, including the Vatican, it was never banned, and ran
The most important thing, of course, is that NO-ONE was
incited to commit crimes. Neither the protagonists, nor the
opposition demanded that their supporters run around destroying
statues (as Godse Boltoy's author has done), or demand
that their supporters destroy the work of art itself (as
the Shiv Sena did in Hussain's case).
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
>why is that Husain work should not be banned but Godse's play be banned.
>both have equal rights.
>Is that fair? can you answer that?
S.L., please find the text where I have said that the play
should be banned? I HAVE NOT. In fact, I was one of the
first saying that it should not be. Of course, now that
I learn that Dalvi is inciting viewers to destroy public
property, I may change my opinion, but that is another issue.
You cannot defend the right of expression to commit a crime.
Unfortunately, what you, Trivedi and others are missing is
the fact that you feel that Hussain got what he "deserved."
>Freedom of speech should be equal and fair to all.
>I personally believe, that both these issues should be allowed. even if they
>do hurt peoples sentiments.
>
>I have not condemned Husain for his work. Though he does have a poor taste
>and seeks publicity.
You can condemn Husain for his work all you want. But you
cannot incite wanton destruction of property and criminal
tresspass. That is what *none* of you guys are willing
to concede. Political leaders with great emotional sway,
demanded that these works of art be destroyed. They have
stopped concerts of well known artists, because their views
differed from those of the state.
Is this condemned by you and your fellow yokels? No. If you
are to be believed, under this fraudulent and fallacious
principle of "reciprocity", Hussain got what he deserved. He
did not. His expression was muzzled.
All I asked is why the Shiv Sena, BJP, Pritish Nandy and all
assorted mindless sidekicks did not discover "freedom of expression"
when Hussain and other artists were being muzzled. Why
only when a play favorable to them is involved?
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
> Whatever the reason at least accept that a tolerant Hindu
>majority allows equal rights even to constantly complaining minorities
>unlike the Islamic Paradise of Pakistan. Sometimes a little thanks
>is much appreciated..
Hindu Tolerance with the BJP/Shiv Sena/BDal/VHP etc
They are not the same.
The BJP/SS/VHP/BD is to Hinduism, what Buchanan is to Christianity.
Its evil, intolerant side.
Matt Thundyil
S.L.
how can conversion destroy "cultural diversity"
__________________________________________
cultural diversity is destroyed the minute the "poor" become Christians.
Their names become Matthew, John, Paul. etc...
their customs, language, their dress, morals, all habits change!
The Missionaries lure them with food, money, medicines, schools. in return
to harvest a large number of converts!
Its just a number game to them! They are wealthy and can play those games.!
That is deceitful. The poor are desperate and they have no choice but to
abandon their forefathers religion and lose their culture. It is a material
desperation. Not a spiritual one.
India is a tolerant country with a rich heritage.
Why do you think Mother Teresa stayed in Calcutta. sure she did good work,
but she did harvest plenty of converts. she didn't tell them that they
should continue to be Hindus! did she?
Why did she not administer to the poor say in Bangladesh?
The muslims would have thrown her out immediately.
Around the globe, the Native Americans, the Black Americans, the Aborgines,
all have lost their cultural identity.
Christainity is gobbling up and destroying cultures across the globe in the
effort of this number game!
Organised religions are the bane of society. they want to dominate and rule.
I believe all religions do lead to God.
No religion has exclusive claim on the Grace of God.
Lord Krishna said:
"I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls.
"In whatever way men love Me, in the same way they find My love; various are
the ways of men, but in the end they all come to Me."
***
Below is a post on missionaries activities and their sinister goals.
I suggest you take a look at these sites.
I did and I can assure you I was completely disgusted.
Here is the list of missionaries who have targeted all Hindus, Muslims,
Sikhs,
tribals, Buddhist, Parsis and others.
Missionaries, do their best, in pointing out that our religions are at
fault for our grinding poverty.
Ironically, Poverty and racism are all alive and well in the Christian west.
As well as crime, drugs, prostitution, divorce, child pornography.
Take a look at these site:
1. Nance Profiles -- Index for Country: INDIA
http://www.calebproject.org/nance/xinddia.htm
PRAY FOR A CHURCH AMONG EACH OF THE 1,800 HINDU PEOPLE GROUPS BY THE YEAR
2000.
PRAY FOR A STRONG CHURCH AMONG EVERY PEOPLE GROUP IN VARANASI, INDIA
"Adopt a city?.... That doesn't sound quite right. Doesn't the Global
Prayer Digest encourage adopting a people, not a city?" In this case The
Digest agrees with Arise and Build Ministries' (ABM) strategic plan of
asking church groups to adopt Varanasi, Hinduism's holy city of 4,000,000 in
Uttar Pradesh.
Why Varanasi? Varanasi is almost as important to Hindus as Mecca is to
Muslims! Leaders of ABM believe that when the body of Christ focuses on
this 4,000-year-old stronghold of Hinduism, there will be a crucial
breakthrough
among the Hindu peoples of India. (See also 1/14/93 of the Digest, on the
North of India.) Those with a heart for the Hindus of Northern India can
find out more about adoption by writing ABM. They can begin by committing
themselves to longterm prayer until reproducing house churches are
established among each people group of Varanasi.
Muslims:
." Soo Yum is from one of 25 evangelistic OM teams that are reaching out
to Muslims in India. Their goal is to give Muslims like Saida the chance to
hear Christ's teachings at least once in their lifetime. From last October
through next month, various teams are holding open air meetings, showing
gospel films and giving out literature in these efforts. Other teams
concentrate on friend- ship evangelism, and follow up Bible correspondence
courses. Meanwhile, Youth With a Mission is training some of their workers
in Muslim evangelism in hopes of following up on those who show an interest
in the gospel.
Father, draw Indian Muslims to You through this campaign. May they
respond to Your love.
The Rajputs:
Pray that the proud Rajput warriors will come to Jesus, the Commander of
the Lord's army, and become true soldiers of the cross. Pray for wisdom for
those trying to reach them with the gospel.
The Buddhists:
PRAY FOR A STRONG CHURCH AMONG THE TIBETAN BUDDHISTS OF KASHMIR BY THE YEAR
2000
Lord, send medical teams and Scriptures to win the Buddhists of the Kashmir
to You. Be the Prince of Peace in this war-torn land.
The Zoroastrians:Parsis
To the Zoroastrians, spiritual and physical purity are one, and the degree
to which they must go to avoid pollution is beyond comprehension to the
Western mind. They believe that any substance that is separated from the
body is subject to being used by demons.
Lord, You said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see
god."
More than anything else, the Zoroastrians of India need pure hearts. Bring
them to know You, the Only One who can purify hearts.
The Tribals:Todas of Tamilnadu:
PLEAD WITH GOD FOR THE HIDDEN PEOPLES
PRAY FOR THE 1,000 ANIMIST TODA OF INDIA
Today,less than 1% of the Toda are Christians.
Holy God, we pray that You would open the hearts of the Toda that they
would come to know You, the One in control of the universe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An indigenous church planting ministry among unreached tribes in Orissa
Scattered in hill and jungle villages of Orissa state in India, 200,000 Ho
tribes-people lived in spiritual darkness for centuries without the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
http://www.christianaid.org/spotlite/640ofu.htm
2. Christian Aid
3. Missionaries in India
http://calvarychapel.com/merrittisland/nmi/nmi.html
Help reach a closed country for Jesus Christ
Winning souls for Jesus Christ in a land dominated by Hinduism is not an
easy task, but by God's strength, native missionaries sponsored by Siloam
Faith Evangelical Church are meeting the challenge. Caring for India's
spiritual and social needs since 1983, the SFEC is an indigenous and
independent organization completely supported by interested individuals and
churches.
Besides the central task of evangelism and planting churches in India, the
SFEC is involved in ministering to a poverty stricken society. The work
includes educational development for children and youth, medical care,
management of orphanages, providing food and care for needy children and
widows and helping local farmers start on the road to financial
independence. SFEC also has a Bible school to train native born-again
believers to become pastors.
The Benefits of Native Missionaries
India's government has officially closed the country to foreign
missionaries. The only real opportunity for the message of Christ to be
heard is for native missionaries to carry it to their own people. Since they
don't need to be trained in the languages and culture of India, it is by far
the most cost-effective way, as well. Only $50 per month (U.S. currency)
will support a native missionary in India. Won't you prayerfully consider
being a part of God's work in India through the Siloam Faith Evangelical
Church?
4.Pray India!
http://www.missionindia.org/prayindia/prayers.html
5. India:Missions & Missionaries
http://www.mitec.net/~missionj/edres.htm
Vacation Bible School and Christian Education Ministries
Vacation Bible School in India has been extremely successful. In 1995, more
than 900,000 children were taught. Out of hundreds of children making
decisions for Christ over the years, many are now in Bible schools and
seminaries and in full-time Christian service. An indigenous missionary
board has come into being out of the early VBS prayer groups.
A newer course entitled “Jesus Loves You” is being used among non-Christian
children. Also, Christian home seminars are conducted for parents of VBS
children. Another area of interest is the recording of lesson cassettes and
musical stories for children.
6. CMD
http://www.cmd.org.nz:800/CMD/hindu01.html
Hinduism -A Challenge for Christianity
by Tim Schultz
International Missions Inc "Eastern Challenge",
Vol 28, No. 4, Winter 1991-92
Hindus of India are one of the largest unreached people groups in the world.
When one hears the word "Hindu," many different scenes pass through the
mind. Some people conjure up images of mystical sages meditating for years
on end in the mountain retreats of the Himalayas. Others think of naked old
men wandering through the rural villages of India. Hindus are both of these
and more. From the urban intellectuals of Bombay and New Delhi to the
idolatry of India's masses, the Hindus are a huge and fascinating part of
our world.
Although Satan binds millions of Hindus in spiritual darkness, we as
believers have very powerful weapons to fight against him for the souls of
India's millions. Hindus are being saved! More than at any time in history
the Hindu people are turning to Christ. As we pray for Hindus, we must
remember that we wrestle against the principalities and powers of hell. As
we claim Christ's victory over Satan, more and more of his death grip will
be released and the light of Jesus Christ will shine on India's children.
Pray that Hindus around the world will be saved.
7.India Missions Association
http://www.ad2000.org/ima/index.htm
8.AD 2000
A Church for Every People and
the Gospel for Every Person
by the Year 2000
http://www.ad2000.org/homegraf.htm
9.The 10/40 Window
http://www.ad2000.org/1040reli.htm
Getting to the
core of the core
2.7 Billion Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims in the 10/40 Window
S.L.
>Gandhi of course will be in heaven as a lot of christians would agree with
you, as we say in christianity it is by the Grace of God we are saved, the
only other faith that believes in Grace I think is Sikhism, which also
believes
salvation is a gift from God.
*****************
your thinking is muddled here, to say the least:
If Gandhi ( a Hindu) is in heaven, then why do we need Christian
missionaries in the first place!
I believe all religions do lead to God.
No religion has exclusive claim on the Grace of God.
Lord Krishna said:
"I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls.
"In whatever way men love Me, in the same way they find My love; various are
the ways of men, but in the end they all come to Me."
> There has been a lot of misinformation going around that poor
> Hindus or whoever are being coverted by deceit.
*****************************************
Take a look at these sites are tell me what you think.
4.Pray India!
http://www.missionindia.org/prayindia/prayers.html
**********
I don't see anybody in the U.S.
> saying lets stop all proselytising by Hare Krishnas, because
> the people converting cannot make decisions for themselves.
******************************************************
Their is goal is not to make the whole world into Hindus.
The missionaries on the other hand, have targeted everyone in the 10/40
Window - the Hindus, Budhists, Muslims, Parsis, Jain, Sikhs and Tribals!
**************************************************
> see the diversitites of different cultures,in U.S.
*******************************
What diversity?
Do I see women wearing the Kimonos, the saris, or burkhas etc...
Do I hear a different dialect or language like I do in India?
All I hear is English! not even French. which is a beautiful language and I
am glad the french and the people of Quebec are proud of it!
customs - festivals. no variety there!
no Hallmark card to say "happy diwali" or "Id Mubarak"
*******************************************
S.L.
We may see them in gambling joints. BUT Do we see them in intellectual
circles?
The only time, White America thinks of them, is before eating a Fat stuffed
Turkey!!!
Its pathetic and degrading.
The only time White America pays homage to them because, their guilty
conscience bothers them! After all they own this pristine land that once
belonged to the Native American.
************************************************
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>You need to check again, Native americans are in the millions strong
>now, they are a noble and proud race, and presently asserting themselves,
>both politically and economically(resorts gambling places etc..) >
Sridhar
>
> cultural diversity is destroyed the minute the "poor" become Christians.
> Their names become Matthew, John, Paul. etc...
> their customs, language, their dress, morals, all habits change!
bull. only their religion changes. what's wrong with changing anyway ?
when hindus come to cities, they too change. do you want to ban this ?
>
> The Missionaries lure them with food, money, medicines, schools. in return
> to harvest a large number of converts!
> Its just a number game to them! They are wealthy and can play those games.!
>
dont care if it's a fun game to missionaries. look at the converts.
aren't they well-fed ? aren't they better off ?
> That is deceitful. The poor are desperate and they have no choice but to
> abandon their forefathers religion and lose their culture. It is a material
> desperation. Not a spiritual one.
you can't eat the richest culture for dinner. their priorities seem ok.
>
> India is a tolerant country with a rich heritage.
> Why do you think Mother Teresa stayed in Calcutta. sure she did good work,
> but she did harvest plenty of converts. she didn't tell them that they
> should continue to be Hindus! did she?
maybe her main aim in life was indeed to convert people. or maybe she
did think christianity is superior. if you're so convinced hinduism is
india's real culture, why not provide for those people ? after all,
if indian culture is so rich, those people should be willing to return.
as far as i know, conversion to christianity is not irreversible
unlike conversion to islam (according to the book, you perverts) .
>
> Why did she not administer to the poor say in Bangladesh?
> The muslims would have thrown her out immediately.
>
if they did, they'd be wrong. in a sense, targetting minors (<18) is
unethical but it's still debatable if it should be banned.
> Around the globe, the Native Americans, the Black Americans, the Aborgines,
> all have lost their cultural identity.
maybe, but that's not how it has happened in india. not until yesterday.
> Christainity is gobbling up and destroying cultures across the globe in the
> effort of this number game!
> Organised religions are the bane of society. they want to dominate and rule.
>
> I believe all religions do lead to God.
> No religion has exclusive claim on the Grace of God.
>
so why not let them be ? as long as they're not asking you to give up
your religion, what's the need for hostility ?
>
Pradip Parekh
Bharat varsha. Often, ideals shared among the common people matter more. In
the sense of this ideal, India is still not complete until Hindutva reaches
the frontiers of Iran, China, Sri Lanka and Myanmar.
Pradip Parekh
S.L. wrote in message <6pgfjb$405$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>Your lack of knowledge about Indian history is truly mind boggling! It
shows
>that you are still intellectually colonized.
>But that is expected, since you must have read "Indian History" books
>written by the oh so biased British!
>
>Anyways, here is the information that will rectify your ignorance:
>
>322 BC: Chandragupta Maurya captures Magadha - Establishes First Indian
>Empire
>
> Chandragupta, with the help Chanakya (Kautilya), who is also known as the
>Indian Machiavelli, destroyed the Nanda rulers of Magadha and established
>the Mauryan empire. It is said that Chanakya met Chandragupta in the
Vindhya
>forest, after being insulted by the Nanda king.
>Alexander's invasion prompted Indians to develop a centralised state.
>Chandragupta declared war and defeated Selucus Nicator, the Macedonian
ruler
>of the Northwestern territories captured by Alexander the Great.
>
>Along with the the astute advice of Chanakya, Chandragupta also seized
>Punjab, Kabul, Khandahar, Gandhara and Persia from Seluces.
>
>"Selucus failed and had to conclude a treaty with Chandragupta by which he
>surrendered a large territory including, in the opinion of certain writers,
>the satrapies of Paropanisadai (Kabul), Aria (Herat), Arachosia (Qanadahar)
>and Gedrosia (Baluchistan), in return for 500 elephants. The treaty was
>probably cemented by a marriage contract. A Greek envoy was accredited to
>the Court of Pataliputra."
>
>- An Advanced History of India
>by RC Majumdar, HC Raychaudhri & Kalinkar Datta
>The most important result of this treaty was that Chandragupta's fame
spread
>far and wide and his empire was recognised as a great power in the western
>countries. The kings of Egypt and Syria sent ambassadors to the Mauryan
>Court.
>
> Mauryan Administration
>Maurya empire was the first really large and powerful centralised state in
>India.
>It was very well governed, with tempered autocracy at the top and democracy
>at the city and village levels. Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador at the
>court of Chandragupta Maurya in Pataliputra, had expressed his admiration
>for the efficient administration of the empire. His book 'Indica' is a
>collection of comments of other Roman & Greek travelers, and Megasthenes
>wrote about the prosperity of the Mauryan cities.
>He further reported that agriculture was healthy, water abundant and
mineral
>wealth was in plenty. Speaking of the general prosperity, Megasthenes
wrote,
>"the Indians, dressed in bright and rich colors, they liberally used
>ornaments and gems." He also spoke of the division of society according to
>occupation and the large number of religious sects and foreigners in the
>empire.
>
>Chandragupta Maurya's son Bindusara became the new Mauryan Emperor by
>inheriting an empire including the Hindukush, Narmada, Vindhyas, Mysore,
>Bihar, Bengal, Orissa, Assam, Baluchistan & Afghanistan.
>
>Later, Ashoka extended the Maurya Empire to the whole of India except the
>deep south and the south-east, reaching out even into Central Asia.
>
> http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/chandra.html
>______________________________________________________
>Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>>> Jim K Jacob (jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
>
>
>>> Was India United as a whole before 1947 ?
>
>
>
>
>
Pradip Parekh
have thought thr' thousand times before calling Yoga an evil practice if it
were an Isalmic thing, for instance, because he knew that it would not
incite people. The criteria needs to be not incitement, but common decency.
You will notice that even Britain, best known for freedom of speech, has law
against blasphemy against Christianity.
The era of riding roughshods over the Hindus is now over. It is noteworthy
that Hindus are not retaliating, but only insisting on equal consideration.
Semitics better get used to it.
Pradip Parekh
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgp01$1...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
>In article <6pgh5i$c6v$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, S.L. <an...@erols.com>
wrote:
>>Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgeni$q...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
>>Yet, you have individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the
destruction
>>> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
>>> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
>>> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
>>_________________________________________________
>>
>>Lets hope next time M.F.Husain does a portrait of
>>
>> Jesus and Virgin Mary in the Nude!
>>
>>Wonder if your feelings will be hurt? I wonder what the Catholic Church
and
>>the Pope in the Vatican will have to say?
>
> Look, who cares what the Pope in the Vatican has to say, as long
> as he does not incite people to commit crimes of whatever nature.
>
> See, freedom of expression cuts both ways, but it does not
> permit one to incite the commission of a crime.
>
>Matt Thundyil
>
>
>
>
>
Pradip Parekh
Pradip Parekh
Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Thomas, Kolothumannil C.
Keywords:
In a previous article, "S.L." <an...@erols.com> wrote:
>Sridhar wrote in message <35BC9B...@nospam.nospam>...
>
>how can conversion destroy "cultural diversity"
>__________________________________________
>
>cultural diversity is destroyed the minute the "poor" become Christians.
>Their names become Matthew, John, Paul. etc...
>their customs, language, their dress, morals, all habits change!
>
>The Missionaries lure them with food, money, medicines, schools. in return
>to harvest a large number of converts!
>
>Its just a number game to them! They are wealthy and can play those games.!
>
>That is deceitful. The poor are desperate and they have no choice but to
>abandon their forefathers religion and lose their culture. It is a material
>desperation. Not a spiritual one.
You can only talk for yourself. Who appointed you to be the spokesperson
for all Hindus? Did anyone offer you money or any incentive to become
a Christian? Why are you keeping "the poor Hindus" poor? Why don't you do
something about it?. When was the last time you helped a "poor Hindu" in
a tangible way? I remember an incident that happened a few years ago.
When the earth quake hit the Lator (sp?) region in Maharashtra state the
the Indian community here, mostly professionals earning good income, made a
"generous" collection of under four hundred dollars. When the tragedy
was brought to the attention of a local church, they raised over four
thousand dollars in one evening service. The Indian community
could have done ten times better than that.
Before you talk down to people, demonstrate your
generosity by action. Was the money sent to convert? You might say, Yes.
If egalitarianism is not your vocabulary and if it is alien to your "culture"
you will impute wrong motives even on acts of mercy!
Some of you seem to imply that in India anyone who
is not a Muslim, Christian, Jew, or Sikh is a Hindu. This is not a tenable
argument and I am not, as any other rational person, prepared to
concede. Assimilation by default is a non sense when it comes to faith and
beliefs. When some one showed mercy, tried to uplift the downtrodden
people by offering hope, and self esteem all hell broke loose.
What is your problem? You won't help any one and won't let others help.
You want to keep the people perpetually poor. No amount of economic
uplift or "reservation system" is going to erase the damage done to your
"brothers and sisters" through generations by your "culture".
The worst thing you have done to them is to make them believe that they
are where socially because of the "karma" of the previous generations.
Do you see a way out for them within the fold of Hinduism?
I,for one, don't subscribe to the view that a person is born with or into a
a religion.
Don't tell me what democracy is. I don't need lessons from you guys.
Democracy is not compatible with the caste system.
Convince me, if you can, that I am wrong.
KCT
Thomas, Kolothumannil C.
Keywords:
people by offering hope and self esteem all hell broke loose.
Pradip Parekh
conversion is neither justified nor the answer. The Indian constitution and
current politics have greatly empowered this historically weak section of
the society, and things are fast changing.
There are far more responsible people in 'high' cast today willing to help
bring about necessary changes to address the problem than the ones wanting
to perpetuate the atrocity. There is enough dynamism in modern India to
change inhumanity within, and answers will come therefrom. Conversions
merely plays into the hands of motivated western interests, pitting people
against people.
Pradip Parekh
Sridhar wrote in message <35BC9B...@nospam.nospam>...
>S.L. wrote:
>>
>> What I abhor, is the conversion of poor Hindus, done with deceit.
>> That changes their culture instantly and destroys the precious cultural
>> diverstiy that has evolved for centuries.
>
>like what ? many of the converts are "untouchables" in hindu culture.
>conversion atleast gives them a life, a religion, organises them into
>a community with a voice. how can conversion destroy "cultural
>diversity" anyway ? if anything, it enriches it .
>
>> Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
>
Mathews J. Thundyil
>You will notice that even Britain, best known for freedom of speech, has law
>against blasphemy against Christianity.
a lap-dog of the British?
Matt "Two wrongs don't make a right" Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
>
>What makes you think that "justice" will be done in the US, but not in
>India? Which is the country with a longer and better record of fair
>treatment of minorities? India or the US? How many Muslim members
>of cabinet have we had in the US? (Muslims today in the US outnumber Jews)
Why are you taking credit for what Nehru's and Gandhi's
secularist, idealism achieved? Gandhi's was the face of
tolerant Hinduism.
You and yours have not failed to use every opportunity
to abuse Gandhi and Nehruvian secularism, haven't you?
Gandhi died for that. Killed by Godse.
So, exactly where do you get off claiming credit for
their legacy?
>I see. If you really believe that Christians in India are an oppressed
>minority you have been reading too much trash from Evangelical
>Christian groups.
Christians in India are no more oppressed than Hindus are.
Your problem is that you think Hindus are more equal
than Christians.
This equality allows them to run around and destroy
places like the Babri Masjid, and if given a chance
religious structures at places like Mathura and others.
This same equality accords militant Hindus the legitimacy
to destroy private property because their "feelings were
hurt."
You are charging down this most slippery of slopes and don't
recognize, much less understand the danger.
Matt Thundyil
Dr. Jai Maharaj
> have thought thr' thousand times before calling Yoga an evil practice if it
> were an Isalmic thing, for instance, because he knew that it would not
> incite people. The criteria needs to be not incitement, but common decency.
>
> against blasphemy against Christianity.
>
> that Hindus are not retaliating, but only insisting on equal consideration.
> Semitics better get used to it.
>
> Pradip Parekh
The atrocities against Hindus must end -- even if they
are inflicted with the perceived approval of Mecca and
the Vatican. Free Bharat from the terrorists who destroy
the predominant Hindu culture of the country.
Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
Please help stop death threats on the Internet:
Christian Threatens to Kill Astrologers
Criminal Prem Thomas <pre...@ged.net> of 8 Lakeland Avenue,
Congers, NY 10920-1708 USA, tel 914-268-8634, fax 914-268-5361,
has published threats to mass-murder astrologers:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/PremThomasThreat.html
Here are two news items about other criminals like him:
News item 1
"Online hate draws sentence . . .
"A 21-year-old college dropout who became the first
person convicted of a federal hate crime committed in
cyberspace received a one-year jail sentence . . .
"U.S. District Judge Alicemarie Stotler Monday sentenced
Richard Machado to one year in prison and ordered him to
undergo counseling.
[...]
"Prosecutors said he sent e-mail messages to 59 Asian
students at UCI, threatening to 'find and kill every one of
you personally' and signing the missives 'Asian Hater.' . . ."
[...] End of Excerpts
- Reuters, Los Angeles, CA, USA, May 5, 1998.
News item 2
"Email death threat spreads
"A death threat spam that frightened America Online
members last week now has spread to Yahoo Mail.
"The email message, which comes from an America Online
return address, reads as follows:
"'Hello, my name is Andy. I know where you live and I
know where your kids sleep. If you dont [sic] call me within
24 hours im [sic] going to kill your kids.' It lists a phone
number and adds: 'P.S. This is NOT a joke.'
[...]
"'We're working closely with the FBI,' Ryan said. 'This
is a criminal investigation, and we're cooperating fully
with the FBI.'
[...]
"AOL spokesperson Tricia Primrose said AOL has 'no idea'
how many of its members received the threat.
[...]
"Threats made via the Net are not a new phenomenon. Earlier
this year, a 21-year-old Los Angeles man was convicted for
sending racist death threats via email to 59 Asian students at
the University of California at Irvine. The case set a precedent
in that it put online communications on par legally with
telephone calls and postal mail. It also was significant because
it addressed civil rights violations perpetrated online.
[...]
"Online hate speech also has been a subject that has plagued
online services, families, and free speech advocates alike.
- CNET News, July 6, 1998, available at:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23868,00.html
jpo...@shaw.wave.ca
Muslims, Sikhs --- all those minority religions? Or are you referring
religious fanatics such as individual members of any religion? We have
seen enough religious fanaticsin this NG and they all come in different
colours and sizes. One thing is very clear that they don't seem to be
coming from Kerala. Perhaps you and your sidekicks need to mingle with
different people of various regions and religious beliefs before
exhibiting your holier than thou attitude.
Joe
Pradip Parekh wrote:
> One can generally get away with saying things against the Hindus. Pope
> would
> have thought thr' thousand times before calling Yoga an evil practice
> if it
> were an Isalmic thing, for instance, because he knew that it would not
>
> incite people. The criteria needs to be not incitement, but common
> decency.
>
> You will notice that even Britain, best known for freedom of speech,
> has law
> against blasphemy against Christianity.
>
> The era of riding roughshods over the Hindus is now over. It is
> noteworthy
> that Hindus are not retaliating, but only insisting on equal
> consideration.
> Semitics better get used to it.
>
> Pradip Parekh
>
Jim K Jacob
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
>
> >Gandhi of course will be in heaven as a lot of christians would agree with
> you, as we say in christianity it is by the Grace of God we are saved, the
> only other faith that believes in Grace I think is Sikhism, which also
> believes
> salvation is a gift from God.
>
> *****************
> your thinking is muddled here, to say the least:
> If Gandhi ( a Hindu) is in heaven, then why do we need Christian
> missionaries in the first place!
I'm am sorry to say you're thinking might be muddled,
As I said christianity is a way to salvation, if
don't want to follow that path don't worry about it,
For those who believe that salvation can be reached
in Christianity, do not deny them that grace.
And since when does heaven distinguish between
human beings, it doesn't matter if Gandhi's belief
was Hindu, he doesn't go to a different heaven, all
human beings end up in the same place, as the rest
of us don't group humans that way.
> I believe all religions do lead to God.
> No religion has exclusive claim on the Grace of God.
>
> Lord Krishna said:
>
> "I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls.
>
> "In whatever way men love Me, in the same way they find My love; various are
> the ways of men, but in the end they all come to Me."
Lord Yeshu said:
"I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the father
but by me"
"Of all the commandments the two greatest are these:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul
and with all your mind.
Love your Neighbor as yourself
"If you follow these 2 commandments you follow me"
> > There has been a lot of misinformation going around that poor
> > Hindus or whoever are being coverted by deceit.
> *****************************************
> Take a look at these sites are tell me what you think.
There are plenty of these sites on the net of all types of
missionaires of all types of religions, I have not seen
these people be nothing but talk, they are listed in
national newspapers national media and other national
avenues of Information, so if I were you
I would just plain ignore them!
Jim K Jacob
S.L. I cannot convince you of anything, you are not
going to listen to a word I am saying.
Go ask a Native American and see what country they
would live in Here in the U.S. or in India, and
that should give all the info. you need to know of
their plight.
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, S.L. wrote:
> You call the Native Americans strong!!!!!!!!
> We may see them in gambling joints. BUT Do we see them in intellectual
> circles?
>
> The only time, White America thinks of them, is before eating a Fat stuffed
> Turkey!!!
> Its pathetic and degrading.
> The only time White America pays homage to them because, their guilty
> conscience bothers them! After all they own this pristine land that once
> belonged to the Native American.
> ************************************************
>
> Jim K Jacob wrote in message ...
Jim K Jacob
On 27 Jul 1998, Saurabh Jang wrote:
> As usual, despite the fact that I was quite honest about what the dispute
> involved you went frothing at the mouth hurling all kinds of baseless
> allegations. You have heard the story of the boy who cried wolf all too often
> haven't you? The danger with raving fundamentalists like you is that if
> indeed a legitimate case of persecution of Chrsitians in India happens,
> people will tend to dismiss it as the usual paranoid rantings of
> proselytizing Chrsitians.
If anybody is frothing at the mouth it is you as you are the one being
all over sensitive. Just because instead of you poking holes in my
argument I poked holes in yours, is no reason to get riled up.
If anybody is crying wolf it is you Saurabh with your
danger of "christian" conversions cospiracies. I have not told of
anything that has not been reported in respected secular newspapers
and magazines, can you say the say?
>
> Jim K Jacob (jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
> : Poking holes, where, I see only one hole that needs to plugged, your
> : mouth
> : Are we talking of past history? we are talking about the present
> : 0 and people here are elected into positions as we are a democracy,
> : native
> : americans, unfortunately due to past racism and prejudice, only make a
> : miniscule of the population of the U.S., thus not having electoral
> : clout. They do have political clout, if you deny that, then sorry I
> : cannot penetrate your fantasy world. In "present day", present now, you
> : know what that means I hope, Native americans do enjoy considerable
> : clout and respect far out of their numbers, though they do deserve more
> : due to past sins by the U.S., but we are talking of the present day
> : again, try to keep it real o.k!
>
> How convenient. No where did you say that we are talking of the present.
> Even legal cases are decided based on past precedent to a large degree.
> And certainly past experience is a good mirror into the present. While
> the genocide of the American Indian might have occured in the "past"
> (not too far back though) the civil rights movement is of pretty
> recent vintage. Despite America being a democracy for over 200 years, Blacks
> have been a part of this system only for a few decades.
What is convient, everything we started talking about is in
the present! You are th one who is not getting with the program
here. Do you want me to start talking about all the ills of
India's past? Talk to me of the present, or is that too hard
for you? Stop dwelling in the past and move on.
> : Well you were talking of poking holes, I see plenty here to poke
> : at. How are Jews not a minority? You had said before that muslims were
> : outnumbering Jews in this country? Are you contradicting yourself?
> : Jews have a well established history in the U.S. and are politically
> : very powerful and represented despite them being around 2% of the
> : population, sorry see no point to your argument here, lets move on.
>
> Why don't you register yourself for an ESL course? I never said that
> Jews were a minority. Only that they are not the minorities with the
> oldest history in the US. A greater percentage of Jews than Japanese are
> descendants of those with less period of presence in the US. No one is
> denying that America has been exceptionally kind to the Jews as far as
> Chrsitian countries go, but that does not prove that all minorities in
> America are treated by the mainstream the way Jews are treated.
If Jews have the oldest prescence in the U.S., then what
about christians in India that have been documented for
being there for at least 1,500 years? You keep saying
that minorities are not treated good here in the U.S.,
ask these minorities where they would rather live and
what their quality of life is, as I don't see any large
scale immigration by any minority from the U.S.
> : Japanese have been here longer than the Jews? thats a new one, is
> : somebody rewriting history books, and the rest us don't know about it?
>
> No not really. Why don't you build up a case for when you think we can
> think of Jews having arrived in America in significant numbers, and I'll
> build up a case for the Japanese having been there for as long, if not
> longer. Also please offer some proof such as references or quotes from
> books discussing the ethnic history of America. I'll be glad to offer
> you the same privilege.
Jews hae a long history in European Society, Europeans
immigrated here, so did the Jews with them. I don't need
to offer any proofs or references as you have not provided
me with any such of Japanese prescence. Actually it would
be quite easy for to find about jews, ask any american
especially a amercian Jew, and you will see that I am
right, otherwise ask any other sane person as I don't
have time for you.
> : Sorry Saurabh no dice, Japanese were the victims of racism in the past,
> : but their prescence here is not ancient, and their numbers only
>
> There is no ethnic group in the US whose presence is "ancient" other
> than the American Indian.
>
> : substantial on the west coast and Hawaii, where, oh no this is going
> : to burst your bubble, they have been quite politically well
> : represented, as there were numerous congressman of Japanese descent.
> How many cabinet members since the history of the American Republic have been
> of Japanese descent? If a Japanese dominated locality sends a Japanese
> congressman to Capitol Hill that is not a big deal at all and certainly
> doesn't prove the stellar track record of America on minority rights.
Uh Saurabh, why would there be many cabinet members of Japanese
descent? How big a percentage of the population of the U.S. is
Japanese? I could probably tell you it is less than 2% if not
less than 1%. Actually a governor of Washington, a 95% white
state was a asian, and they are elected here in the U.S.,
A black governor was elected the governor of a predominantly
white state of virginia. That record speaks for itself, I
can't help you anymore than that, seek it elsewhere.
> : > Your contention that India as a country did not exist before 1947 is
> : > pathetic beyond belief in terms of its ignorance of history. Your
> : > explanation about "are we not a collection of ..." holds even more true
> : > for the USA than for India.
>
> Strictly going by your arguments of "stick to the present" why should you
> bother about what was the state of the Indian nation in the "past"?
Oh how you like to twist and turn the topics Saurabh, it is
to show that at the present we are still a collection of
previously separate peoples and cultures, and I'm from the
south so don't tell me about your northern empries, to me
that don't mean cow patties!
> : How is my contention "pathetic"? Tell me which country or empire
> : united India into one ( other than the british as that was still
> : split up into princley states) before 1947? Tell us of this fantasy
> : empire or country that no one but you has ever heard of Saurabh.
>
> The Mauryan empire was pretty big and covered a pretty big portion of the
> Indian subcontinent. Besides, you are defining a nation in terms of
> strict territorial control under a central power. There is a distinction
> between a nation and a state.
Oh I already discussed this previously, so too late to bring
it up, Like i said that is a northern empire, I'm from the
south, kerala specifically, I don't want to hear about your
northern kingdoms, as that don't mean manure down here in the
south.
> : Oh and you did not like my statement of how we are a collection of
> : different cultures peoples and religions? How does this hold more
> : true for the U.S.? Does each different state of the U.S. speak
> : a different language? Cannot a texan relate to a new yorker better
> : than a tamilian and a punjabi? So the rest of us Saurabh would like
>
> The US as we know it today was settled by people from England, Ireland,
> Germany, Scandinavian countries, etc. each of whom came to this
> country speaking their own languages, maintaining their own cultures.
> It is only recently that the national and cultural distinctions between
> European settlers have been removed when it comes to language and marriage.
> (A phenomenon that was necessary to build up a homogeneous group
> of undifferentiated whites in order to exercise greater control over
> wealth and status). Now as to your question of whether a Texan can relate
> to a New Yorker better, that would depend on the two person's in
> question wouldn't it? I submit to you that a Texas farm boy would
> probably not be able to relate too much to a Russian New York Jew for example.
> On the other hand a Tamilian and a Punjabi going to the same college or
> working in the same company in India might relate very well to each
> other.
Is your logic working right? said a texan and a
new yorker, a russian jew I am assuming you mean a recent immigrant
as past a certain point a jew is just a american jew and a texan
farm boy, is like saying a recent chinese immigrant to calcutta and
a telegu, what kind of logic is that?
Of course a tamilian and punjabi going to the same college
will have something in common, They Go to The Same Schoool!,
Now you are just making stuff up Saurabh, and losing any mark of
saneness, as your arguments do not make a whit of sense.
Mathews J. Thundyil
>No body pretends that atrocities on 'lower' class don't occur. But
>conversion is neither justified nor the answer. The Indian constitution and
>current politics have greatly empowered this historically weak section of
>the society, and things are fast changing.
>There are far more responsible people in 'high' cast today willing to help
>bring about necessary changes to address the problem than the ones wanting
>to perpetuate the atrocity. There is enough dynamism in modern India to
>change inhumanity within, and answers will come therefrom. Conversions
>merely plays into the hands of motivated western interests, pitting people
>against people.
What part of:
"Who gave you the power to decide what is good or not for
others?"
do you *NOT* understand.
Fanatic Hindu ravings about "Conversions", while threatening
"re-conversions" only suggest a casteist superiority-complex
that suggests that they know "best".
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
>One can generally get away with saying things against the Hindus. Pope would
>have thought thr' thousand times before calling Yoga an evil practice if it
>were an Isalmic thing, for instance, because he knew that it would not
>incite people. The criteria needs to be not incitement, but common decency.
You reply to my message, yet do not counter
my claims. I take it that you agree with what I say, and
condemn the Shiv Sena for their dastardly attack on
Hussain's work?
>Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgp01$1...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
>>In article <6pgh5i$c6v$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, S.L. <an...@erols.com>
>>>Mathews J. Thundyil wrote in message <6pgeni$q...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>...
>>>Yet, you have individuals such as Anil Trivedi arguing that the
>destruction
>>>> of MF Hussains work was (a) justifiable on the fallacious
>>>> notion of "reciprocity"; and (b) justifiable because it
>>>> was the result of "hurting the feelings of the population."
>>>_________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Lets hope next time M.F.Husain does a portrait of
>>>
>>> Jesus and Virgin Mary in the Nude!
>>>
>>>Wonder if your feelings will be hurt? I wonder what the Catholic Church
>>>the Pope in the Vatican will have to say?
>>
>> Look, who cares what the Pope in the Vatican has to say, as long
>> as he does not incite people to commit crimes of whatever nature.
>>
>> See, freedom of expression cuts both ways, but it does not
>> permit one to incite the commission of a crime.
>>
>>Matt Thundyil
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
>The atrocities against Hindus must end -- even if they
>are inflicted with the perceived approval of Mecca and
>the Vatican. Free Bharat from the terrorists who destroy
>the predominant Hindu culture of the country.
Free the internet from spam-spewers.
Matt Thundyil
Mathews J. Thundyil
> Nonsense . BJP/Shiv Sena and others have always stood for
>equal rights for all , including Muslim women. It is the pseudosecs
>who are terrified of miserable monotheists who discriminate..
Equal rights for everyone supporting them.
Everyone else is less equal than them.
Matt Thundyil
S.L.
>You can only talk for yourself. Who appointed you to be the spokesperson
you do something about it?.
Do I need anybody permission to express my opinion? I think not...
Do you think we keep "the poor Hindus" for the fun of it?????????
Do you recall that India, was ruled for 200 years by the oh so civilized,
Christian British who suck the country dry of its wealth.
so did the Moghuls. they ranskaced and looted and plundered to their heart's
content.
India is today a poor, overpoulated country, with enormous problems.
with more than 80 % of hindus. It is not exactly easy to motivate and manage
people on a such a large scale.
But we are trying. and it will take time. BUT we will get there. not with
any Christian missionary help. Thank you very much. That is why we need the
BJP. - a strong government at the center.
If you have such a burning desire to help, go help the poor in Bangladesh..
I'm sure the muslims there will welcome you with open arms. hehe.......
Poor Hindus are OUR problem.
But that doesnot mean chrisitians should take advantage of the Poor Hindus
and convert them. If you want to help, please do so, but do not seek to
harvest converts.
Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the
disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners,
language, food and drink".
"If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all
proselytising".
"I resent the overtures made to Harijans."
"Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the
fountain of truth."
Poverty doesn't justify conversion.
____________________
>No amount of economic uplift or "reservation system" is going to erase the
damage done to your "brothers and sisters" through generations by your
"culture".
what the hell do you mean -damage by "culture"?
gee, this is the same western Christian culture that you are so proud!
The one that Overran the Globe.
The same Christians that started the Inquisition, the Crusade, the burning
of witches and pagans, the killing of Aborgines in Australia, the wiping out
of Native Americans, the Slavery of Black Africans. Colonising India,
Africa, China and others. Looting of Mayan and Incas gold treasures and
transporting it to the coffers of the Holy Catholic King of Portugal and
Spain!
dare you tell me that my culture is bad!
How Ironic! indeed!
___________
>Democracy is not compatible with the caste system.
I suppose Racism practised in the West is compatible with Democracy!
Srivatsan Seshadri
S.L. wrote:
Thomas, Kolothumannil C. wrote in message <6piv0q$6j2$1...@tribune.usask.ca>...
>You can only talk for yourself. Who appointed you to be the spokesperson
>for all Hindus? Why are you keeping "the poor Hindus" poor? Why don't
you do something about it?.
___________________________________Do I need anybody permission to express my opinion? I think not...
Do you think we keep "the poor Hindus" for the fun of it?????????
Do you recall that India, was ruled for 200 years by the oh so civilized,
Christian British who suck the country dry of its wealth.
so did the Moghuls. they ranskaced and looted and plundered to their heart's
content.
India is today a poor, overpoulated country, with enormous problems.
with more than 80 % of hindus.
please do keep in mind the other 20%
It is not exactly easy to motivate and manage
people on a such a large scale.But we are trying. and it will take time. BUT we will get there.
Yes. we will.
not with
any Christian missionary help.
no, we don't need their help.
Thank you very much. That is why we need the
BJP. - a strong government at the center.
we need a strong center. Period. BJP or otherwise.
If you have such a burning desire to help, go help the poor in Bangladesh..
I'm sure the muslims there will welcome you with open arms. hehe.......Poor Hindus are OUR problem.
Poor Hindus are India's problem. So are poor Muslims, Christians.....
But that doesnot mean chrisitians should take advantage of the Poor Hindus
and convert them.
Christian bigots do. Ordinary Christians don't.
If you want to help, please do so, but do not seek to
harvest converts.Gandhi called Christian missionaries as "vendors of Goods".
He said " In Hindu households, the advent of a missionary has meant the
disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners,
language, food and drink"."If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all
proselytising"."I resent the overtures made to Harijans."
"Stop all conversion, it is the deadliest poison that ever sapped the
fountain of truth."
Poverty doesn't justify conversion.
____________________>No amount of economic uplift or "reservation system" is going to erase the
damage done to your "brothers and sisters" through generations by your
"culture".
Garbage statement by KCT. To be treated with contempt.
what the hell do you mean -damage by "culture"?
gee, this is the same western Christian culture that you are so proud!
The one that Overran the Globe.
The same Christians that started the Inquisition, the Crusade, the burning
of witches and pagans, the killing of Aborgines in Australia, the wiping out
of Native Americans, the Slavery of Black Africans. Colonising India,
Africa, China and others. Looting of Mayan and Incas gold treasures and
transporting it to the coffers of the Holy Catholic King of Portugal and
Spain!dare you tell me that my culture is bad!
How Ironic! indeed!
___________>Democracy is not compatible with the caste system.
Correct KCT. Hence, we should end caste system among the Christians and Muslims too. Did you know that Christian treatment (and I am not generalizing here) of the Dalit Christians is also bad. For example, Dalit christians are made to sit separately in church, given separate burial grounds, disallowed to marry non-Dalit Christians etc. These facts were brought to notice by a Remy Y Denis, Vice-President of All-India Catholic Union.
I suppose Racism practised in the West is compatible with Democracy!
Nope. it is not.
Mathews J. Thundyil
>S.L. wrote:
>> Poor Hindus are OUR problem.
>
>Poor Hindus are India's problem. So are poor Muslims, Christians.....
Well said.
>Correct KCT. Hence, we should end caste system among the Christians and Muslims
>too. Did you know that Christian treatment (and I am not generalizing here) of
>the Dalit Christians is also bad. For example, Dalit christians are made to sit
>separately in church, given separate burial grounds, disallowed to marry
>non-Dalit Christians etc. These facts were brought to notice by a Remy Y Denis,
>Vice-President of All-India Catholic Union.
Wholeheartedly so. I don't know that these problems re
so bad in Kerala, but then few things are, but wherever
these problems exist the Church should step up and
take responsibility.
Matt Thundyil
ramesh
P.V.Mannil wrote:
> In article <6pd28t$bam$1...@winter.news.erols.com>,
> "S.L." <an...@erols.com> wrote:
> >Just like Adam and Eve existed.
> >Noah's Arch. and all those billions of life froms to be transported in
> a
> >boat.
> >The Earth was created 4000 years ago. (ask Darwin!)
> >Just like Virgin Mary! Immaculate conception.
> >Jesus walked on water.
> >Resurrection.
> >etc,....
> And you still don't believe? I guess reading the stories of the Bible
> in Amar Chithra Katha might make it more believable.
> Just to recap on the Virgin Mary issue, its not only the Christians who
> believe in it, I believe the Koran also tells of Mary's immaculate
> conception.
Problem with BJP/RSS arseholes is that they look for 'scientific'
evidence for
beliefs of other religions, but not their own. If Rama could be conceived
by Kaushalya
drinking prasad after Putrakameshti yaga, Virgin Mary can get pregnant
without getting
laid too. Immaculate conception only goes to prove that if God wants, God
can cause
asexual reproduction in humans too. If God wills, even a man can get
pregnant.
I have no problem believing that Kaushalya got pregnant after drinking
some prasad,
because God wanted to give her a son. Ofcourse skeptics argue that prasad
will not
make Dasharatha potent and that Dasharatha's wives got laid in a row with
the swamijis
who conducted putrakameshti:) yaga, but I am not interested in arguing
with kafirs.
Srivatsan Seshadri
Mathews J. Thundyil wrote:
Srivatsan Seshadri <sriv...@scf.usc.edu> wrote:
>S.L. wrote:
>> Poor Hindus are OUR problem.
>
>Poor Hindus are India's problem. So are poor Muslims, Christians.....
Thank You.Well said.
>Correct KCT. Hence, we should end caste system among the Christians and Muslims
>too. Did you know that Christian treatment (and I am not generalizing here) of
>the Dalit Christians is also bad. For example, Dalit christians are made to sit
>separately in church, given separate burial grounds, disallowed to marry
>non-Dalit Christians etc. These facts were brought to notice by a Remy Y Denis,
>Vice-President of All-India Catholic Union.
Wholeheartedly so. I don't know that these problems re
so bad in Kerala, but then few things are, but wherever
these problems exist the Church should step up and
take responsibility.
Well... the problems are quite bad across the country. Unfortunately Matt, what you don't seem to realise is that the Church is a part of the problem -- not the solution. And yes, Church should take responsibility for the discrimation first and then try to figure out a way to eliminate it. But, my guess is, the society would be better placed to solve the problem.
--v
Matt Thundyil