Is there a 'zha' gene among tamils?
John Mitchell
Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
Dr. S. Raman wrote:
>
> The letter 'zha' is considered special in Tamil, though i am told it
> occurs also in arabic. Interestingly zha does not occur in other indian
> languages except perhaps malayalam which is a derivative of tamil. Since
> tamil is older or coeval with sanskrit zha certainly is not borrowed from
> any other language. Interestingly tamils can be broadly divided as those
> who can verbalize zha and those who cannot. The famous indian geneticist
> Sanghvi (whos is not a tamil) once proposed that certain foldings of the
> tongue may be of genetic origin. So far nobody has investigated or
> proposed that zha in tamil may have a genetic component though it will be
> very interesting. I do not know whether the ability to verbalize zha is
> environmental. Perhaps it is both, since certain individuals can be
> taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
> difficulty pronouncing zha. I have noted that SriLankan tamils generally
> substitute La for zha. If it is genetic are they genetically different
> from the mainland tamils? I am asking this out of genuine interest in
> genetics and please do not bring in racial bigotry and caste bashing into
> this discussion. Does someone want to respond? Is this worth researching?
>
> Raman
Venkat Devarajan
>
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
> > difficulty pronouncing zha.
Not Americans. If you were to spell Tamil as Tamir, Americans
would pronounce it perfectly!! :-)
> >
> > Raman
>
Venkat Devarajan
Dept. of Electrical Engineering
The University of Texas at Arlington
John Mitchell
John Mitchell wrote:
>
> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
>
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> >
> > The letter 'zha' is considered special in Tamil, though i am told it
> > occurs also in arabic. Interestingly zha does not occur in other indian
> > languages except perhaps malayalam which is a derivative of tamil. Since
> > tamil is older or coeval with sanskrit zha certainly is not borrowed from
> > any other language. Interestingly tamils can be broadly divided as those
> > who can verbalize zha and those who cannot. The famous indian geneticist
> > Sanghvi (whos is not a tamil) once proposed that certain foldings of the
> > tongue may be of genetic origin. So far nobody has investigated or
> > proposed that zha in tamil may have a genetic component though it will be
> > very interesting. I do not know whether the ability to verbalize zha is
> > environmental. Perhaps it is both, since certain individuals can be
> > substitute La for zha. If it is genetic are they genetically different
> > from the mainland tamils? I am asking this out of genuine interest in
> > genetics and please do not bring in racial bigotry and caste bashing into
> > this discussion. Does someone want to respond? Is this worth researching?
> >
>
> John:
>
> Probably due to recent upgrades in the system this is not going
> through. Can you please post it for me in soc.culture.tamil.
> Many thanks- Rao Gudimetla
>
> Dr. S. Raman implies that there is no 'Zha' in other south indian
> languages. Not a correct statement with regard to telugu.
>
> In telugu books ( some in recent times and almost in every book that
> was published more than about 20 years back ), the letters 'ja' and
> 'zha' are common and distinguished from each other very clearly. In the
> telugu alphabet there are always two letters, 'ja' and 'zha'.
> Both appear almost identical in script but but the letter for 'zha' has an
> extra sign on the top of the letter representing 'ja'.
> Even today, scholars insist on the correct usage of these letters
> though I am not sure how strictly the distinction is being observed today.
> But I know that In literary telugu, this distinction is still observed.
>
> The reference to sanskrit bothers me. If I remember correctly, none of
> the telugu words, where Zha is used, are called thatsamas, a word that
> implies that it is borrowed from Sanskrit. Apparently, the letter, 'zha'
> then must be native to dravidian languages (now that we know that 'zha'
> exists in telugu, tamil and malayalam).
>
> Having said that, I am curious why Dr. Raman concluded other south indian
> languages do not have 'zha'.
>
> regards-Rao
Valliappa Lakshmanan
In article <519nu6$4...@news.uta.edu>, Venkat Devarajan <ven...@uta.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
>
>> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
>> > difficulty pronouncing zha.
>
>would pronounce it perfectly!! :-)
Actually, you'd have to get over the "A" problem. You ought to spell
Tamil as Tuhmir to get them to pronounce it correctly ... :)
lakshman
Mohan
For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
in Tamil, it is called 'pallam', assuming we are all talking about the
the same thing here, since it is difficult or rather impossible to
do justice to these sounds.I have no idea about Telegu!
Best regards
mohan marette
John Mitchell
Posted to SCI.karnataka and SCItelugu for comment
John Mitchell wrote:
>
> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
>
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> >
> > The letter 'zha' is considered special in Tamil, though i am told it
> > occurs also in arabic. Interestingly zha does not occur in other indian
> > languages except perhaps malayalam which is a derivative of tamil. Since
> > tamil is older or coeval with sanskrit zha certainly is not borrowed from
> > any other language. Interestingly tamils can be broadly divided as those
> > who can verbalize zha and those who cannot. The famous indian geneticist
> > Sanghvi (whos is not a tamil) once proposed that certain foldings of the
> > tongue may be of genetic origin. So far nobody has investigated or
> > proposed that zha in tamil may have a genetic component though it will be
> > very interesting. I do not know whether the ability to verbalize zha is
> > environmental. Perhaps it is both, since certain individuals can be
> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
shivram(shiv)
Mohan wrote:
>
> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
> in Tamil, it is called 'pallam', assuming we are all talking about the
Nope. Say Vaazhai pazham. :-). And there are more.
--
*******************************************************
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown,
The dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb.
- Comfortably Numb (Pink Floyd)
*******************************************************
Josi Hillary
On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Mohan wrote:
> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
> in Tamil, it is called 'pallam', assuming we are all talking about the
> the same thing here, since it is difficult or rather impossible to
> do justice to these sounds.I have no idea about Telegu!
> Best regards
> mohan marette
>
>
Hi Mohan,
It is the same in Tamil also. Until you pointed out, I thought only Tamil
has the "pazham"!
Josi Hillary
Ravi Krishna
shivram(shiv) (Shivra...@intelsat.int) wrote:
: Mohan wrote:
: >
: > had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
: > in Tamil, it is called 'pallam', assuming we are all talking about the
: Nope. Say Vaazhai pazham. :-). And there are more.
^^^^^^
Which incidentally as I pointed out is misprononuced by a substantial number
of tamilians belonging to a particular community ( hint) as pallam.
tho...@skyfox.usask.ca
In a previous article, John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Posted to SCI.karnataka and SCItelugu for comment
>
>John Mitchell wrote:
>>
>> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
>>
>> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
>> >
>> > The famous indian geneticist
>> > Sanghvi (whos is not a tamil) once proposed that certain foldings of the
>> > tongue may be of genetic origin. So far nobody has investigated or
>> > proposed that zha in tamil may have a genetic component though it will be
>> > very interesting. I do not know whether the ability to verbalize zha is
>> > environmental. Perhaps it is both, since certain individuals can be
>> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
>> > difficulty pronouncing zha.
>> > I am asking this out of genuine interest in
>> > genetics and please do not bring in racial bigotry and caste bashing into
>> > this discussion. Does someone want to respond? Is this worth researching?
>> >
>> > Raman
I don't see anything genetic about learning to pronounce
'zha' sound. 'zha' sound is so common in Malayalam and all
Malayalam speaking persons can pronounce it. Following are the
words in every day usage: Vazha (banana plant), pazham (fruit)
naazhi ( a volumetric measure), vazhi (path) kuzhi (pit), thozhi (kick),
kazhikuka (eating), pazhi (fault). All Malayalees can speak all these
words effortlessly. As far as I know no word in Malayalam starts with
"zha" sound. Most tamil people substitute 'Zha' with 'la'. for example
for 'vazha pazham' they say 'vala palam'. In my view this is due to lack
of training during childhood. May be it is a hard sound to learn once you
are older.
Seby Kottayil
Hi,
"Zhashtipoorthi (60th birthday) starts with "zha". There is probably
some more. Can't readily recollect. Been out of touch too long! :-(.
Seby
tho...@skyfox.usask.ca wrote:
: In a previous article, John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
: >Posted to SCI.karnataka and SCItelugu for comment
: >
: >John Mitchell wrote:
: >>
: >> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
: >>
: >> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
: >> >
: >> > The famous indian geneticist
: >> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
: >> > difficulty pronouncing zha.
: >> > I am asking this out of genuine interest in
: >> >
: >> > Raman
Dr. Sajan Thomas
Seby Kottayil wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> "Zhashtipoorthi (60th birthday) starts with "zha". There is probably
> some more. Can't readily recollect. Been out of touch too long! :-(.
>
> Seby
>
I thought it was more like "Shashtipoorthy" and not "Zhashtipoorthy"
Then again, may be I am wrong!
Sajan
======================================================================
Dr. Sajan Thomas
Research Assistant Professor
Civil, Environmental and Ocean Engineering
Stevens Institute of Technology
Hoboken, NJ 07030
sth...@stevens-tech.edu
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~sthomas/
Sam Mathew
In article <51fr82$r...@ns2.ryerson.ca>, sko...@acs.ryerson.ca says...
>
>
>Hi,
>
>"Zhashtipoorthi (60th birthday) starts with "zha". There is probably
>some more. Can't readily recollect. Been out of touch too long! :-(.
>
>Seby
>
Hi,
It is 'Shashtipoorthi' not 'Zhashtipoorthi'
Sam Mathew
http://wwww.tufts.edu/~smathew/
K. Srinivasan
I have often noticed that in Kerala, even some English words are spelled
with a "zha", since every one pronounces it. Example: "nazhsari" for Nursary.
If you do that in Tamil Nadu or in Sri Lanka, many would read it as "naLsari".
I hope by now every one is convinced that "zha" & "Ra" are unique to
(Tamil+MalayaLam+Kannada+Telugu+TuLu), and not unique to Tamil,
as we hear so often. These sounds become clearer as one goes south.
K. Srinivasan sr...@ireq.ca
My Home Page: http://geocities/Athens/7444
Maya Nair
"Dr. Sajan Thomas" <sth...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu> wrote:
>Seby Kottayil wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> "Zhashtipoorthi (60th birthday) starts with "zha". There is probably
>> some more. Can't readily recollect. Been out of touch too long! :-(.
>>
>> Seby
>>
>
>
>Then again, may be I am wrong!
>
>Sajan
It is not Zhashtipoorthi but Sashtibdapoorthi - shasti stands for six
and shathaabdam (I think) means 10 years - ? Poorthi ~ complete ..
If you have trouble with "zha" like my kids had, repeat the sentence
"Kozhi mazhayathu kuzhi kuzhichu" ;)
Good Luck!
Maya :)
LIFE - Some people make things happen, some watch things happen, while others
wonder what happened.
Kathiravan
In article <323992...@worldnet.att.net>, Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
|> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
|> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
|> in Tamil, it is called 'pallam', assuming we are all talking about the
|> the same thing here, since it is difficult or rather impossible to
|> do justice to these sounds.I have no idea about Telegu!
|> Best regards
|> mohan marette
thamizh -as old as Tamil,
Look at the three most common
SI music instruments.
muzhavu-drum
kuzhal-flute (wind instrument)
yaazh-string (lute)
Hey Read up Tamil for a change.
Ranjit Mathews
I can't imagine why a tamiYan would have any difficulty pronouncing "na". tamiY has three
n s just like malayalam. for example,
pani (fever)
paNi (occupation ?)
panni (pig)
would be spelt with three different n's in tamiY.
tho...@skyfox.usask.ca wrote:
>
> The sound of "na" is very difficult for Tamil people living
> Kerala. Depending on the word the same letter is pronounced
> differently. eg. "nana"(irrigation or watering).
> My English teacher in High school (a Tamil)
> could not quite grasp the difference> We had lot fun in
> immitating his way of saying "Nayinte Makan" :):)
> KCT
tho...@skyfox.usask.ca
In a previous article, "Dr. Sajan Thomas" <sth...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu> wrote:
>Seby Kottayil wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> "Zhashtipoorthi (60th birthday) starts with "zha". There is probably
>> some more. Can't readily recollect. Been out of touch too long! :-(.
>>
>> Seby
>>
>
>I thought it was more like "Shashtipoorthy" and not "Zhashtipoorthy"
>
>Then again, may be I am wrong!
>
>Sajan
The question raised was this: Does any word in Malayalam or Thamizh
start with the "zha" alphabet? As far as I know, not in Malayalam.
Another letter that is rarely used to start a word is "La" as in VaLa(bangle)and
MuLa. Please don't use the soft 'la'. If you do "MuLa" (bamboo) will
become "Mula" (breast) :). There are two words I Know that starts
with"La". One is "Loha" (Christian Priest's civil dress) and the
other is "Laha", the name of a place in Pathanamthitta district.
Dr. S. Raman
Kathiravan wrote:
>
> In article <323992...@worldnet.att.net>, Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> |> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
> |> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
> thamizh -as old as Tamil,
> Hey Read up Tamil for a change.
'zha' certainly is not original in malayalam. It certainly is borrowed.
The word malayalam is derived by the union of malai=mountain and
Azham=sea. i.e it was the language spoken by people in land between the
high mountains (western ghats) and the deep sea(Arabian sea). Accordingly
the language should have been named 'malayAzham', but it is named
malayaLam instead. It shows the original proponents of malayalam were
either unable to utter zha or did not include the letter in their
vocabulary. Malayalam is close to sanskrit and sanskrit does not include
'zha'. Other netters have pointed out that both telugu and kannada
originally used 'zha' though it is not currently used. Hence all
dravidian languages borrowed 'zha' from tamil and were using it in
ancient times. With the dominance of sanskrit in the other languages the
currency of zha dropped out except in malayalam who integrated zha into
their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
Raman
K. Srinivasan
In article <323F8C...@zeus.med.uottawa.ca>
"Dr. S. Raman" <ra...@zeus.med.uottawa.ca> writes:
>'zha' certainly is not original in malayalam. It certainly is borrowed.
>The word malayalam is derived by the union of malai=mountain and
>Azham=sea.
malai (Hill) + aaLam (kingdom) (aaLuvadhu = ruling) is considered
the correct derivation. No one in kEraLam will replace "zha" by "La"!!
It is nonsense to discuss what went from Tamil to Malayalam. The
language was common. Lots of Tamil literature are in Grantham script,
which is almost same as Malayalam script. Lots of Tamil literature was
produced in the Chera country, ChEralam.
K. Srinivasan
http://geocities.com/Athens/7444
Mohan
Hi there Doc,
Thanks for the input, but why is it necessary to have a gene to pronounce
'zha' or anything else? I have a problem though,I have the darnest time
with 'west' and 'vest'-being from Kerala,perhaps, I suspect, my 'zha'
gene may be at work here?
regards
mohan marette
VB
sr...@ireq.ca (K. Srinivasan) writes:
>I hope by now every one is convinced that "zha" & "Ra" are unique to
>(Tamil+MalayaLam+Kannada+Telugu+TuLu), and not unique to Tamil,
>as we hear so often. These sounds become clearer as one goes south.
In telugu there is a 'Jha' sound, but I am not sure if it
the same as the 'zha' being discussed here. This 'Jha' is somewhat
rare in usage - an example would be Jhansi - but then its not a
'native' word. At the moment I cant recall any other telugu words
that incorporate this consonant.
However, some times it is simplified to 'ja' but never to
'la','La','ra' or 'Ra'. My guess is that this 'zha', if it were
ever present, is now extinct in telugu. I'm wondering if I can
be taught to pronounce it - may be someone should post the
sequence of turns & twists to be performed by the tongue :)
Another almost extinct sound in telugu is - 'Ra' also
called bandi-ra 'coz the letter looks like a buggy on wheels :).
I am told this has been discontinued from being taught to
pupils in first standard and thereafter.
A question in passing to linguists/philologists: Why was
the sound 'ksha' given its own letter? It can be denoted with
a combination of 'ka' and 'sha' - and (it appears to me) sounds
identical to 'ksha'. what gives?
Question #2. Does the sound '{Gj}na' as in the sanskrit
Jnana (knowledge) appear in any other dravidian language other
than telugu?
Austin Pereira
In article <17SEP96....@skyfox.usask.ca>,
<tho...@skyfox.usask.ca> wrote:
>The question raised was this: Does any word in Malayalam or Thamizh
>start with the "zha" alphabet? As far as I know, not in Malayalam.
>MuLa. Please don't use the soft 'la'. If you do "MuLa" (bamboo) will
>become "Mula" (breast) :). There are two words I Know that starts
>with"La". One is "Loha" (Christian Priest's civil dress) and the
>other is "Laha", the name of a place in Pathanamthitta district.
>
Is "lAva" a malayalam word ?. If not what is the malayalam word for
lava ?.
I also wonder what is the word for soap in Malayalam
- Austin
Dorai Sitaram
In article <324057...@worldnet.att.net>,
Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I have a problem though,I have the darnest time
>with 'west' and 'vest'-being from Kerala,perhaps, I suspect, my 'zha'
>gene may be at work here?
A non-genetic, even non-zh, explanation suffices for this.
And it's fixable too, if you want to fix it. (Sometimes
it's more fun not to fix these things.)
In the following diagrams, assume that the subject is facing
right, "|" is the cross-section of her upper teeth, and ")"
is the cross-section of her lower (facial) lip. Indian
articulation of v tends to be
|
)
This reduces the distance between v and w. This isn't a
problem for Indian languages, because v and w are allophones
there. In English, hovewer, such a mixup can be confusing.
Try, instead,
|
)
and stand back as the rewards for your increased
comprehensibility start rolling your way...
--d
John Mitchell
John:
Raghu Seshadri
: It is not Zhashtipoorthi but Sashtibdapoorthi - shasti stands for six
: and shathaabdam (I think) means 10 years - ? Poorthi ~ complete ..
: Maya :)
Shashti = 60
Abda = years
RS
AMBALAVANAR SRISKANTHARAJAH
John Mitchell (nj...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> > substitute La for zha. If it is genetic are they genetically different
I don't think there is anything different genetically, Because we
can pronounce 'zha' perfectly. Though, most Tamil eelam Tamils fails to
pronounce 'zha' correctly, They can indeed pronounce it. We don't use it
in our day to day language. But we pronounce it correctly when delivering
a speech or whatever. So I won't accept the arguement that there is
genetic difference between the Indian tamils and the Tamil eelam tamils.
> > Raman
.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.
: Sriskantharajah "vaazhka thamizh" :
: Carleton University e-mail address:asri...@chat.carleton.ca :
: http://www.aurora.carleton.ca/~rajah :
`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`'~*=-,.,-=*~'`
Benny varkey
Dr. S. Raman wrote:
>
> Kathiravan wrote:
> >
> > In article <323992...@worldnet.att.net>, Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > |> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
> > |> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
>
> > thamizh -as old as Tamil,
>
> > Hey Read up Tamil for a change.
>
What you mean by not original? Malayalam is essentially Tamil.
It is derived from a version of Tamil called Chenthamizh.
> The word malayalam is derived by the union of malai=mountain and
> Azham=sea. i.e it was the language spoken by people in loand between the
Azham means depth and not sea. Azhy ( that which is deap ) means sea.
If your logic is correct then it should have been malaAzhy not malaAzham.
> high mountains (western ghats) and the deep sea(Arabian sea). Accordingly
> the language should have been named 'malayAzham', but it is named
> malayaLam instead. It shows the original proponents of malayalam were
FYI, the word Malayalam is very recent. The word used to indicate malayalam
in Tamil was MalayamMozhi. In Local Sanskrit and ManiPravalam ( a mixture of
Sanskrit and Malayam ), it was refered simply as 'Bhasha' ( meaning colloquial
language )
> either unable to utter zha or did not include the letter in their
> vocabulary. Malayalam is close to sanskrit and sanskrit does not include
Malayalam is not close to Sankrit, Literary Malayam just absorbed a lot of
Sankrit Vacabulory. That deos not make it any close to Sankrit.
> 'zha'. Other netters have pointed out that both telugu and kannada
> originally used 'zha' though it is not currently used. Hence all
> dravidian languages borrowed 'zha' from tamil and were using it in
> ancient times. With the dominance of sanskrit in the other languages the
> currency of zha dropped out except in malayalam who integrated zha into
> their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
> existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
>
> Raman
Benny
Maya Nair
In article <51p7gc$o...@hpindda.cup.hp.com>,
Thanks, Raghu - for clearing that up! ;)
So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
Regards.
Maya :)
se...@ivnet.com
Testing ...
S Eswara
Dr. S. Raman
K. Srinivasan wrote:
> It is nonsense to discuss what went from Tamil to Malayalam. The
> language was common. Lots of Tamil literature are in Grantham script,
> which is almost same as Malayalam script. Lots of Tamil literature was
> produced in the Chera country, ChEralam.
The grantham script was invented to facilitate writing sanskrit for
persons familiar with tamil. It is not native to tamil. The ChEranAdu was
an integral part of tamil until the inhabitants decided to have their own
language. No one denies their contribution to tamil literature. The
classic example is 'chilappadhikAram'. Colloquial tamil and malayalam are
very close. But literary tamil and malayalam are poles apart.
Raman
Mary Easo
Karthikeyan Madathil
>>>>> "Ranjit" == Ranjit Mathews <sb...@bbn.com> writes:
Ranjit> I can't imagine why a tamiYan would have any difficulty
Ranjit> pronouncing "na". tamiY has three n s just like
Ranjit> malayalam. for example,
The difference is, that the 'na' in naaraNGa and the 'na' in
vanam are written differently in Tamil, while they're written
identically in Malayalam, although pronounced differently. This
would give a Tamilian a little trouble, at least initially, to
decide how to pronounce a 'na' in a Malayalam word, as in the
old joke "naarayaNan nalla nalla naaraNGa nOkki nOkki vaaNGi"
(try saying it with the 'na' pronounced as in 'vanam').
ciao,
Karthik
--
Biju Abraham N.
In article <51rf45$9...@batph8.bnr.ca>, Maya Nair wrote:
.
>So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
100 years.
>
>Regards.
>
>Maya :)
Regards,
Biju.
Sam Mathew
In article <51rf45$9...@batph8.bnr.ca>, mn...@bnr.ca says...
>So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
>
>Regards.
>
>Maya :)
Shatham = 100
abdham = Year
Shathabdhi = 100th year or 100th anniversary
similar note:
Sahasram = 1000
Sahsrabdham = 1000th year
:))
Raghu Seshadri
: >Shashti = 60
: >Abda = years
: >
: >RS
: Thanks, Raghu - for clearing that up! ;)
: So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
: Regards.
: Maya :)
Shatam = 100
Therefore, shatabdam should mean completion of
100 years. But alas, very few make it to this
number, so conventionally it is celebrated
at 80 years ! ( isn't convention strange sometimes ..)
RS
Sam Mathew
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce
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In article <51rf45$9...@batph8.bnr.ca>, mn...@bnr.ca says...
>So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
>
>Regards.
>
>Maya :)
Shatham = 100
Ranjit Mathews
Benny varkey wrote:
>
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> >
> > Kathiravan wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <323992...@worldnet.att.net>, Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > > |> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
> > > |> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
> >
> > > thamizh -as old as Tamil,
> >
> > > Hey Read up Tamil for a change.
> >
> > 'zha' certainly is not original in malayalam. It certainly is borrowed.
>
> What you mean by not original? Malayalam is essentially Tamil.
> It is derived from a version of Tamil called Chenthamizh.
>
> > The word malayalam is derived by the union of malai=mountain and
> > Azham=sea. i.e it was the language spoken by people in loand between the
tamil words that are now archaic in tamiY, but in common use in malayalam.
for example, "nOkki" (look).
> FYI, the word Malayalam is very recent. The word used to indicate malayalam
> in Tamil was MalayamMozhi. In Local Sanskrit and ManiPravalam ( a mixture of
> Sanskrit and Malayam ), it was refered simply as 'Bhasha' ( meaning colloquial
> language )
>
> Malayalam is not close to Sankrit, Literary Malayam just absorbed a lot of
> Sankrit Vacabulory. That deos not make it any close to Sankrit.
> > 'zha'. Other netters have pointed out that both telugu and kannada
> > originally used 'zha' though it is not currently used. Hence all
> > dravidian languages borrowed 'zha' from tamil and were using it in
> > ancient times. With the dominance of sanskrit in the other languages the
> > currency of zha dropped out except in malayalam who integrated zha into
> > their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
> > existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
> >
BTW, if you want to hear a tamiYan pronounce Y (i.e., zh), ask him to say "pipe" :)
Sukumaran K. Menon
Maya Nair wrote:
>
> In article <51p7gc$o...@hpindda.cup.hp.com>,
> Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
> >
> >: It is not Zhashtipoorthi but Sashtibdapoorthi - shasti stands for six
> >: and shathaabdam (I think) means 10 years - ? Poorthi ~ complete ..
> >
> >: Maya :)
> >
> >Abda = years
> >
> >RS
>
> Thanks, Raghu - for clearing that up! ;)
>
> Regards.
>
> Maya :)
Abdam means cloud or year (measured as time elapsed between two seasons
of heavy down pours?)
Abdi stands for completion of a years time.
Shat stands for six.
Shashti stands for sixty
Shashtipoorthy stands for completion of sixty (by implication sixty
years). Shashtiabdi also means the same thing.
Shatham stands for a hundred.
shathabdam stands for a hundred years.
Shathabhishekam is ceremony performed for people who have lived to see a
thousand full moons. (About 83 1/2 years)
Hope this helps.
Shashtiabdapoorthy correctly means completion of sixty years.
Karthikeyan Madathil
>>their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
>>existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
I think a gene for 'zha' is highly unlikely, since I know at least
two North Indians, brought up in Kerala, with no genetic connection
to Kerala whatsoever that I know of (their respective fathers
happened to be employed in Central Govt. organizations) who could
pronounce 'zha' well. That's hard to explain, if we presume the
existence of such a gene.
Regards,
Karthik
--
Karthikeyan Madathil (kar...@india.ti.com), DSP Design, Texas Instruments.
... Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer,
my terminal, or the view from my window are purely coincidental. Any
resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic.
Benny varkey
Ranjit Mathews wrote:
>
> Benny varkey wrote:
> >
> > Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> > >
> > > Kathiravan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <323992...@worldnet.att.net>, Mohan <cybe...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > > > |> For some reason, I thought Malayalam was the only indian language that
> > > > |> had 'zha'. For example, a 'banana' in Malayalam is called a 'pazham',
> > >
> > > > thamizh -as old as Tamil,
> > >
> > > > Hey Read up Tamil for a change.
> > >
> > > 'zha' certainly is not original in malayalam. It certainly is borrowed.
> >
> > What you mean by not original? Malayalam is essentially Tamil.
> > It is derived from a version of Tamil called Chenthamizh.
> >
> > > The word malayalam is derived by the union of malai=mountain and
> > > Azham=sea. i.e it was the language spoken by people in loand between the
> if you attend a tamiY bharathanatyam performance, you'll probably recognize classical
> tamil words that are now archaic in tamiY, but in common use in malayalam.
> for example, "nOkki" (look).
> >
> > FYI, the word Malayalam is very recent. The word used to indicate malayalam
> > in Tamil was MalayamMozhi. In Local Sanskrit and ManiPravalam ( a mixture of
> > Sanskrit and Malayam ), it was refered simply as 'Bhasha' ( meaning colloquial
> > language )
> isn't maNipRavaLam what the literary standard form of malayALam is called ?
No. Manipravalam was mixture of Sankrit and malayalam in which the text mixed both grammers
and often interchanged between both languages. It existed before
today's Malayalam was accepted as the standard literary language. [ For some time
around 15 - 19th century, ( During the Brahministic era ) only Sankrit literature
was considered to be the literature. In one of the King's courts ( I think it
was Calicut Kigdom ) , there were 19 poets but one of them
( I believe he is one of the Purathana Kavithrayams of Malayalam ) composed in Malayalam,
so he was considered to be a half poet and the total no. of poets
in the court was considered to be 18 and half. ]
> >
> > Malayalam is not close to Sankrit, Literary Malayam just absorbed a lot of
> > Sankrit Vacabulory. That deos not make it any close to Sankrit.
> > > 'zha'. Other netters have pointed out that both telugu and kannada
> > > originally used 'zha' though it is not currently used. Hence all
> > > dravidian languages borrowed 'zha' from tamil and were using it in
> > > ancient times. With the dominance of sanskrit in the other languages the
> > > currency of zha dropped out except in malayalam who integrated zha into
> > > their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
> > > existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
> > >
Sam Mathew
In article <3246AB...@cas.org>, bc...@cas.org says...
...Stuff deleted...
. In one of the King's courts ( I think it
> was Calicut Kigdom ) , there were 19 poets but one of them
> ( I believe he is one of the Purathana Kavithrayams of Malayalam ) composed
in Malayalam,
> so he was considered to be a half poet and the total no. of poets
> in the court was considered to be 18 and half. ]
There is another argument on this subject. That says 'PathineTTaraKKavikal'
doesn't mean they are considered 18 nad half poets, rather they are '18
arakkavikal' (18 royal poets).
Remember "arachan' is king
'aramana' is royal palace.. etc.
so the term arakkavikal could mean royal poets.
:))
Sam
sma...@kerala.org
http://www.kerala.org/~smathew/
Benny varkey
Dr. S. Raman wrote:
>
> K. Srinivasan wrote:
>
> > It is nonsense to discuss what went from Tamil to Malayalam. The
> > language was common. Lots of Tamil literature are in Grantham script,
> > which is almost same as Malayalam script. Lots of Tamil literature was
> > produced in the Chera country, ChEralam.
>
> The grantham script was invented to facilitate writing sanskrit for
As for the Grantham script, it is simply a 'round script' ( called vattezhuthu )
version of the Brahmi script. In the devanagari script each letter is written mostly in
one or more strokes of lines where as the in the Grantham script by and large each letter
is written as a continous curve, giving the script a circular appearance. If you simply
connect Devanagari's strokes by curves, and make it more circular you will get something
like Grantham script.
All Indian scripts ( excepts those adopted from Persian/Arabic such as Urdu ) and some used
in South East Asia like Thai script which are derived from Indian script are closely related.
They are refered as the Brahmi script.
I have no idea about the origin of Brahmi scripts ( It probably is not known ), But it does
not have anything to do with Sankrit in particular. The earliest hymns of Sankrit were
considered to be Sruthis which were not written at the time when they were composed, but was passed
on to others by word of mouth. ( Or nobody knows how they were written if at all they were. )
Nobody invented the Grantham script, it just developed by usage. Go to any State Meuseum in
South India and you can find sample scripts from different stages of development of South Indian
scripts.
> persons familiar with tamil. It is not native to tamil. The ChEranAdu was
> an integral part of tamil until the inhabitants decided to have their own
No inhabitants 'decide' to have a language of their own. A language always
developes by usage.
> language. No one denies their contribution to tamil literature. The
> classic example is 'chilappadhikAram'. Colloquial tamil and malayalam are
> very close. But literary tamil and malayalam are poles apart.
As of today the literary Malayalam and colloquial Malayalam are more or less the same and is close
to Tamil.
>
> Raman
Benny
Dorai Sitaram
In article <323F8C...@zeus.med.uottawa.ca>,
Dr. S. Raman <ra...@zeus.med.uottawa.ca> wrote:
>'zha' certainly is not original in malayalam. It certainly is borrowed.
>high mountains (western ghats) and the deep sea(Arabian sea). Accordingly
>the language should have been named 'malayAzham', but it is named
>malayaLam instead. It shows the original proponents of malayalam were
>vocabulary. Malayalam is close to sanskrit and sanskrit does not include
>originally used 'zha' though it is not currently used. Hence all
>dravidian languages borrowed 'zha' from tamil and were using it in
>ancient times. With the dominance of sanskrit in the other languages the
>currency of zha dropped out except in malayalam who integrated zha into
>their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
>existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
Assuming there is a zh gene, wouldn't it make more sense to
posit that all of the half-dozen South Indian linguistic
segments have it, instead of claiming that any occurrence of
zh in one of them must have been due an imperfect borrowing
from Tamil, whose speakers alone had the zh gene that let
them enunciate zh "correctly"? After all, South Indians
aren't genetically all that far apart. If you're going to
push a funky theory, why not make it just the littlest bit
more robust?
I think even this more inclusive gene-based theory is
doomed, though, because zh is pronounced very trippingly by
native speakers of two very widely spoken languages --
American English and Mandarin Chinese. Neither of them have
a significant enough genetic intersection with Tamil to
influence their phonetics. (Although the truly desperate
could probably still make the case that Marco Polo or
some-such did a _lot_ of cross-pollination...)
--d
Lal Samuel Varghese
sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) writes:
> : So what does "shathabdham" really mean?
> : Maya :)
>
> Shatam = 100
>
> Therefore, shatabdam should mean completion of
> 100 years. But alas, very few make it to this
> number, so conventionally it is celebrated
> at 80 years ! ( isn't convention strange sometimes ..)
>
> RS
if i remember right, "shathaabdham" is celebrated when a person
has seen 1000 full moons.
--
Regards,
Lal.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lal Samuel Varghese l...@miel.mot.com.
MIEL, 33A, Ulsoor Road, Of: 91-80-5598615
Bangalore - 42, INDIA Re: 91-80-5293499
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Mathew
>
>if i remember right, "shathaabdham" is celebrated when a person
>has seen 1000 full moons.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Lal.
>
No..That is shathabhishekam.. not shathabdam..
shathabdam = 100years
shathabdi = 100th year
:))
--------
Sam Mathew
K. Srinivasan
>All Indian scripts ( excepts those adopted from Persian/Arabic such as Urdu ) and some used
>in South East Asia like Thai script which are derived from Indian script are closely related.
>They are refered as the Brahmi script.
> As of today the literary Malayalam and colloquial Malayalam are more or
less the same and is close to Tamil.
>Benny
Quite true, It is easy to see resemblences between Tamil and Brahmi scripts.
However, I find it impossible to see any resemblence between, Kannada/Telugu
and Devnagri/Brahmi/Tamil scripts. Just try comparing, k, c, t, p, n, N,
r, l, m etc. The ai, ja, tha are exceptions. The Tamil and Kannada symbols
for these alone are similar. All other Tamil characters are close to
Brahmi/Devnagri (and even Roman sometimes, like t, p).
I think the "circular" script of Telugu/Kannada is of a native South Indian
origin, different from Brahmi.
Srinivasan
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7444
Bakulesh Thakker
In article <dgvid56...@getafix.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>, Karthikeyan Madathil <kar...@india.ti.com> says:
>
>>>their language. None of these lingustic explanations disprove the
>>>existence of a possible 'zha' gene among ancient tamils.
>
> I think a gene for 'zha' is highly unlikely, since I know at least
> two North Indians, brought up in Kerala, with no genetic connection
> to Kerala whatsoever that I know of (their respective fathers
> happened to be employed in Central Govt. organizations) who could
> pronounce 'zha' well. That's hard to explain, if we presume the
> existence of such a gene.
>
> Regards,
> Karthik
>--
In Gujarati and Marathi there is a letter for zh.
For example Gandhiji's caste was Kapozh Vaniyaa.
Here n in Vaniyaa is from guttural (that is non-dental)
series of consonants. Marathi freedom fighter Balagangadhar
Tilak's name could be more correctly transliterated as Bazhagangadhar
Tizhak. Marathi and Gujarati both have many words with non-dental n.
Like for instance hindi gajara which is a flower band worn in hair by women
is known as Veni with non-dental n. The marathi word ani with non-dental n
means "and".
This letter zh is written in marathi like devnagari L with both "feet" of L
turned upward until a sideways 8 figure is formed. In Gujarati the graphic
shape of the letter is more difficult to describe.
-Bakulesh Thakker
Ranjit Mathews
Telugu/Kannada scripts have evolved from Grantha which evolved from Brahmi between CE 100
& 300. The Telugu/Kannada proto-script separated from the TamiY/MalayaLam proto-script
about the 7th century CE.
R.Vijay Krishnan
As Sam Mathew pointed out "shathaabhishekam" is celebrated when a person
has seen "ayiram poorna chandran".
In this context,let me state that it
happens when one passes the age of 84, according to our almanac(panjangam).
Vijay Krishnan
kannan...@gmail.com
> Posted to soc.culture.idian.kerala, alt.culture.kerala for comment.
>
> Dr. S. Raman wrote:
> >
> > occurs also in arabic. Interestingly zha does not occur in other indian
> > languages except perhaps malayalam which is a derivative of tamil. Since
> > tamil is older or coeval with sanskrit zha certainly is not borrowed from
> > any other language. Interestingly tamils can be broadly divided as those
> > who can verbalize zha and those who cannot. The famous indian geneticist
> > Sanghvi (whos is not a tamil) once proposed that certain foldings of the
> > tongue may be of genetic origin. So far nobody has investigated or
> > proposed that zha in tamil may have a genetic component though it will be
> > very interesting. I do not know whether the ability to verbalize zha is
> > environmental. Perhaps it is both, since certain individuals can be
> > taught to make the sound. I have noticed that westerners have greatest
> > substitute La for zha. If it is genetic are they genetically different
> > from the mainland tamils? I am asking this out of genuine interest in
> > this discussion. Does someone want to respond? Is this worth researching?
> >
> > Raman
Tamil has ஞான - G(ya)nana - knowledge
dkmk...@gmail.com
This is what I used to believe in too. And I am a MalayALam native speaker.
Nowadays, I see articles which argue the opposite, giving MalayALam more antiquity than previously given. I have seen some copper plate inscriptions mentioned as evidence for this line of thinking.
I am wondering how much of all this is wishful thinking and how much is evidence-based. I do not rule out the possibility of TamiL scholars tweaking evidence to prove their own language's chronological superiority.
We need less partisanship and more devotion to actual facts.
DKM Kartha