mandarin/cantonese?
Joshua Rubin - JOUD/F93
I'm a journalism student in Canada who's considering living in Hong Kong:
sometime in the future (1996, 2006?). I was wondering if I should bother:
learning Cantonese or will the PRC have stamped it out in 15 years. Maybe:
I should learn Mandarin instead?:
:
Thanks very much for answering,:
:
Josh Rubin:
jru...@hermes.acs.ryerson.ca:
:
P.S. Right now, I can only say about 6 sentences in Cantonese, 2 words in:
Mandarin.:
David Stuart
I suggest you learn both Mandarin and cantonese.
Although China will take over HK in 1997 and Mandarin will be the official
language (probably?), Cantonese will still be widely used in HK because almost
all HK people speak Cantonese and this is their first language. If you are going
to stay in HK, Cantonese will be preferable.
For Mandarin, you should also know it. Since you are studying journalism. I
think you are going to be a reporter. After 1997, I think the officer in HK will
use Mandarin (or sometimes Cantonese also) in their public speeches. So, as a
reporter, you have to know Mandarin as well.
If you are non-Chinese or non-Asian, it will be a little hard for you to learn
both languages (or dialects) at the same time. I think you can learn Mandarin on
your own because the pronounciation is based on English (the Pin-Yin system). To
learn Cantonese, watch more HK movie, go to Chinatown everyday(!!), join the HK
students in your school (!!!)...... All these will help. But first of all, learn
as much slangs as you can, especially how to say all those 4-letter words.
If you can't learn them well in two years' time (before 1996), don't worry.
English is also common in HK!!
Mr. Zhong
writes:
|> In article <2i1dvf$o...@hermes.acs.ryerson.ca>, jru...@acs.ryerson.ca
(Joshua Rubin - JOUD/F93) writes:
|> |>
|> |> I'm a journalism student in Canada who's considering living in Hong Kong:
|> |> sometime in the future (1996, 2006?). I was wondering if I should bother:
|> |> learning Cantonese or will the PRC have stamped it out in 15 years.
|> |> Maybe: I should learn Mandarin instead?:
|> |> :
|> |> Thanks very much for answering,:
|> |> :
|> |> Josh Rubin:
|> |> jru...@hermes.acs.ryerson.ca:
|> |> :
|> |> P.S. Right now, I can only say about 6 sentences in Cantonese,
|> |> 2 words in: Mandarin.:
|>
|> I suggest you learn both Mandarin and cantonese.
|>
|> Although China will take over HK in 1997 and Mandarin will be the official
|> language (probably?), Cantonese will still be widely used in HK because
|> almost all HK people speak Cantonese and this is their first language.
|> If you are going to stay in HK, Cantonese will be preferable.
|>
Although learning both would be best, it is preferable to learn
putonghua (Mandarin) since it will become the sole language used in Xianggang
(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
foreigner studies.
Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
Anthony Wong (or LM)
Shanghai is under the current government for more than 40 years now.
Has Shanghainese disappeared?
Cantonese will not disappear for similar reason. Furthermore, there
is TV station in Guangzhou that actually uses Cantonese for some of its
programs. So Cantonese will stay, although used less frequently than nowadays.
So let's say: if you want to do official business, use Mandarin; but if you want
to get to the real living people, use Cantonese.
Long live Cantonese!
- Anthony Wong
aw...@hal.com
Hoi-On Judy Wong
>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>foreigner studies.
Wait a minute here... Are you suggesting that Mandarin is
more superior than Cantonese?? What do you mean by "educated and high
cultured people" using Mandarin and all that??? I agree that Mandarin
is becoming more and more important in HK as we're hitting closer to
the 1997, but I totally disagree with what you're saying (or
suggesting) that Mandarin will be spoken exclusively by "edcated" and
"high cultured" people! Mandarin means "common language", to unify
Chinese language so that we can understand each other through a
unified system, since we have so many different dialects among us
Chinese. People don't speak Mandarin doesn't mean that they are less
educated or low cultured!!
>
> Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
>putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
>15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
This is totally BS! I speak Cantonese, all my family,
relatives and friends speak Cantonese, I don't see that in 15 years
all of us will abandon Cantonese and speak Mandarin, unless we're
forced to! If this is really gonna happen (being forced to speak
Mandarin), then I don't know the meaning of freedom anymore!
Cheers
--
*****************************************
"It's only because I want everything
I do to be perfect that I never
actually do anything!"
Quach Quy Chi
> Long live Cantonese!
>- Anthony Wong
> aw...@hal.com
Well, I agree that the language will always be around but what I am more
concerned about (whether it be superficial or not) is will the singers
still sing in Cantonese?? Or will they only sing in Mandarin because of
the lost (maybe a lost maybe not) of a large source of cantonese
listeners (that being hongkong) who have the income to buy their music?
I mean, really, whether we want to believe it or not...the HongKong
entertainment business is to make money. Well....here is something to think
about.
Vincent Li
>
>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>foreigner studies.
still spoken quite commonly in Guongdong provice with the local dialects.
Not sure the actual situation there now though, although I have heard from
relatives who was back to Fuji that the young people there have problem
understanding Fujianese.
>
...
>the 1997, but I totally disagree with what you're saying (or
>suggesting) that Mandarin will be spoken exclusively by "edcated" and
>"high cultured" people! Mandarin means "common language", to unify
offical name given to the dialect by the PRC government means "common
language". In Taiwan it's still called "GuoYu", or "national language".
The PRC government felt the term "GuoYu" was not "politically correct" or
something.
>Chinese language so that we can understand each other through a
>unified system, since we have so many different dialects among us
>Chinese. People don't speak Mandarin doesn't mean that they are less
>educated or low cultured!!
suggest eventually, only Mandarin dialect will be spoken, just as there is
a unified writing system.
>
>> Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
>>putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
>>15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
>
> This is totally BS! I speak Cantonese, all my family,
>relatives and friends speak Cantonese, I don't see that in 15 years
>all of us will abandon Cantonese and speak Mandarin, unless we're
>forced to! If this is really gonna happen (being forced to speak
>Mandarin), then I don't know the meaning of freedom anymore!
>
English is the "language of business", so in the far east Mandarin will
inevitably dominate. The question might be the form of the dialect. i.e. things
like terms you use in the Mainland can be quite different from that in Taiwan.
-- Vince
---------------------------------------
v...@mprgate.mpr.ca |-) It works well under pressure: Another thing
|-] you can say about your pillow. -- Mr Boffo
SO Watts!!!
and I need the Z80 source program to load my own program to
the EPROM to complete my project.
So, is there anyone have that program or know where I can
get it, PLEASE reply or send it to me.
THANKS IN ADVANCE
Korrinn Fu
now. I don't see English substituting Cantonese. (Don't tell me the
British don't force their ways on people.) Guo Men Dong has been in
Taiwan for > 40 years? I don't see Taiwanese stop using their
language. Japan occupied Taiwan for some 50 years, and I see older
Taiwanese worshiping the Japanese, but they still use their own language.
I have been in US of A for 17 years. I don't see myself stop using
Cantonese.
Oh, for those foreigners who don't study Yueyu, they'll never know
how to order dim sum and other Cantonese cuisine, the most varied
and interesting among all Chinese cuisine. But then again, not
everyone would want to eat good food. Not everyone would want a
taste of Dai Pai Dong. And if you ever go to any place like a
temple, God bless you to find your way.
Not to mention dating. Has anyone seen the movie/read the book
"Iron and Silk", by Mark Salzman. Not too well written. But he
knows Mandarin well, and went to China to learn Kung Fu. He acted
as himself in the movie too. His Kung Fu is quite impressive.
But then, some people go to another country to do only work.
Korrinn
f...@dsd.camb.inmet.com
David Stuart
TOTALLY AGREE !!!!!
Remember, Cantonese is a very old language. It consists of many old
pronounciations and characters which is very helpful if you want to study old
Chinese literature or material. Also, Cantonese can describe things in an active
and beautiful way (in Cantonese "gu ngai") which other languages cannot (or hard
to do that). Well, if you study those 4-letter words, you will see that it is
more powerful in Cantonese. :-> (NOTE: I am not encouraging you guys go to study
those words. Just as an example.)
Hong Kong, Cantonese --- Chin chau man joy
Wing shui but lau
(For thousand or even ten thousand years.
the name will still be respected.)
Fran Kan [HKPA.COMIC]
>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>foreigner studies.
>Chinese. People don't speak Mandarin doesn't mean that they are less
>educated or low cultured!!
I agree totally. There is no such language that only spoken by "educated
or high cultured" people. Not much foreigner study Cantonese simply
because they CAN'T pronounce certain sound, even Mandarin speaking people
can't produce some Cantonese sound. IF we have to abort learning
Cantonese, i will highly recommend all people in China forget about
Mandarin and learn English. Of course i don't want to see that happen
cause there should be variety and uniqueness in the world.
Cantonese is a unique language which is totally different from Mandarin,
why should we not speaking it if we are Cantonese people.
Fran
______________________________________________________________________________
\ /
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\ d O_O b > BANG!! < d @_* b /
/ ___ooOo_( v )_oOoo___ /\_/\_/\_/\_/\ ___ooOo_( x )_oOoo___ \
\ /
/ Hong Kong Picture Archive - COMIC \
\ other categories: HKPA-MISC Name : Fran Kan /
/ HKPA-POPSTAR Email: ws...@vela.acs.oakland.edu \
\ HKPA-SCENIC /
/____________________________________________________________________________\
Rage aGainst the Machine..
Fran Kan [HKPA.COMIC] <ws...@vela.acs.oakland.edu> wrote:
>ho...@kits.sfu.ca (Hoi-On Judy Wong) writes:
>
>Cantonese, i will highly recommend all people in China forget about
>Mandarin and learn English. Of course i don't want to see that happen
>cause there should be variety and uniqueness in the world.
>
>Cantonese is a unique language which is totally different from Mandarin,
>why should we not speaking it if we are Cantonese people.
>
how about this: theres a need to unify all the dialects we have in mainland
china and we picked mandarin as the official language of it. it ll be cool
to learn mandarin since lotsa people speak it in china but why not speak
cantonese when it is absolutely fine to do so?
MC Albertie..(aka beRtie on IRC)
--
youre gonna go with one of my plans? are you nuts? what happens if
we all get killed? ill never hear the last of it!
Hoi-On Judy Wong
>>>ho...@kits.sfu.ca (Hoi-On Judy Wong) writes:
>
>
>>>>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>>>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>>>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>>>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>>>>foreigner studies.
>
>Whoever said the above is a racist and he/she is just so bored that
>raising flame is his/her sole business.
>
Hey, don't put my name (Hoi-On Judy Wong) on top of this BS, I
just replied to it, I DID NOT write it!! It was some "smart" guy from
Stanford did it!
Long Live Cantonese!
Cheers
Judy =)
Hoi-On Judy Wong
No more flame mail for our Mr. Albertie, eh? Seems like
you've finally got some sense in your head!
Totally agree with you though!
Cheers
Judy =)
I've got the Blues
>>>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>>>foreigner studies.
Whoever said the above is a racist and he/she is just so bored that
Zzzzzz....
distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
'languages'.
From the Oxford dictionary:
Dialect: form of speech perculiar to a particular region; subordinate
variety of a language with non-standard vocabulary, pronounciation, or
idioms.
My two cents.
Zzzzz.....
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, f...@proto.camb.inmet.com (Korrinn Fu) says:
>Not to mention dating. Has anyone seen the movie/read the book
>"Iron and Silk", by Mark Salzman. Not too well written. But he
>knows Mandarin well, and went to China to learn Kung Fu. He acted
>as himself in the movie too. His Kung Fu is quite impressive.
>But then, some people go to another country to do only work.
I just finished reading the book and I wonder if the movie made a bigger
impression on you instead (I have yet to see the movie). Let's correct
some facts first. Salzman went to China as an English teacher, but during
his two years there he managed to learn different martial arts, not just
kung fu, which as defined in the book, is not martial arts alone. His
fighting skills fall under the term *wushu*, as he calls it.
As for the book not being well-written, I disagree. For someone who is
not a professional writer, I think Salzman did a good job. The anecdotes
he relates are written in an unpretentious manner, though I do wonder
about the romantic view he has of China. Of course, we must consider that
people would treat him differently as he is a white foreigner. I enjoyed
the book for what it is, without comparing it to the great classics.
--
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
| Cyril Chen | "Only darkness has the power to make |
| Shard Press | a man open his heart to the world." |
| ak...@freenet.carleton.ca | --Paul Auster |
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, sle...@netcom.com (Zzzzzz....) says:
>People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>'languages'.
On a relate note: I used to have this peeve about people calling Mandarin
the Chinese language, while Cantonese was simply Cantonese. I always
thought that I knew the Cantonese dialect of Chinese, but some people
don't seem to think so. My impression from them was that Mandarin is
Chinese, and every other dialect is not Chinese. Please, give me some
help here before I go nuts!
Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
So what do you folks think?
Kelvin Leung
>I just finished reading the book and I wonder if the movie made a bigger
>impression on you instead (I have yet to see the movie). Let's correct
I saw the movie, but never read the book...
>some facts first. Salzman went to China as an English teacher, but during
>his two years there he managed to learn different martial arts, not just
>kung fu, which as defined in the book, is not martial arts alone. His
>fighting skills fall under the term *wushu*, as he calls it.
Hrmm... pardon me if I am telling you the obvious: I thought _wushu_
literally meant martial arts. (And I mean literally! :)
>As for the book not being well-written, I disagree. For someone who is
>not a professional writer, I think Salzman did a good job. The anecdotes
>he relates are written in an unpretentious manner, though I do wonder
>about the romantic view he has of China. Of course, we must consider that
>people would treat him differently as he is a white foreigner. I enjoyed
>the book for what it is, without comparing it to the great classics.
I enjoyed watching the movie. In fact, I recommended it to a few of
my friends. A friend of mine, someone who happens to be from BeiJing,
hated the movie. According to him, the movie is full of stereotypes--
in particular the "mystic" aspect of the Far East, etc, etc.
I viewed the movie quite differently than he did though. Leaving the
discussion on unrealistic views of everyone being so nice aside, I kind of
liked the way the author portrayed China and its people. I particularly
liked a scenario in the movie: the author (being an American with an
open mind) publically showed his affections to his Chinese peers. He
then received some feedbacks which he weren't quite expected. I forgot
what exactly happened, but in any case, he was frustrated. Then came
a (Chinese) student of his. His student quietly told him the following:
(in China) a father is not supposed to kiss his children (or show any kind
of strong emotional feelings) in public. Yet, when the children fall
asleep, their father might walk in and kiss their foreheads.
To me, that shows (despite of the social tattboos) Chinese are just
like your ordinary flesh-and-blood human beings with feelings.
I guess that particularly sums up what the author meant by "Iron and
Silk," two contradictory yet integral characteristics of Chinese values.
Well... what do you all think?
Yours Sincerely,
Kelvin Leung
============================================================================
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get
better." -- Dr. Seuss (The Lorax)
Wing Ng
>
>I'm a journalism student in Canada who's considering living in Hong Kong:
>sometime in the future (1996, 2006?). I was wondering if I should bother:
>learning Cantonese or will the PRC have stamped it out in 15 years. Maybe:
>I should learn Mandarin instead?:
no way, CCP is not Mandarin chauvinist, Deng Xiaoping can hardly
make himself understood in mandarin himself.
There are lots more Cantonese speakers on mailand also.
I understand that studying Cantonese is becoming popular up north,
Guangdong being the richest province in China.
Wing
Yuk Lun Chan
>In article <2i41ro$5...@istanbul.mdd.comm.mot.com> gy...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Grace Yung) writes:
>>
>>I don't think Cantonese will ever disappear. As much as there are more
>>people who can speak Mandarin now-a-days in HK, the majorily still speak
>>in Cantonese. I highly doubt that HK people are willing to give up
>>Cantonese after 1997. I wouldn't for sure!!
>Perhaps the fact that people in Canton still speak Cantonese (do they?)
>is an indication that Cantonese is likely to remain in HK?
In fact, Canton is a most difficult (in han area) city to rule in term
of language. In most other cities, the northner could force the people
around them to speak Mandarin. But in Canton, the people force them to
learn cantonese.
A question, is SheungHai ratio broadcasting in Sheunghainese?
>Dicky
--
The above statements do not express the opinion of the Hewlett-Packard Company
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuk Lun Chan, Software Development Engineer
E-mail : y...@hpopd.pwd.HP.COM Desk : Yuk Lun Chan/HP1600
Openmail : Yuk-Lun Chan/pinewood,lab,hpopd
X400: C=GB, ADMD=GOLD 400, PRMD=HP, ORG=HP, OU1=pinewood, SN=Chan, GN=Yuk-Lun
DAVID HARRIS - PROANGLAIS
>
>
> In a previous article, sle...@netcom.com (Zzzzzz....) says:
>
>>People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
>>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>>'languages'.
It seems to me that this comes back to the eternal question of where to draw the
line between a dialect and a language. What about this? Do you consider French,
Spanish, (Romanian), Portuguese, Catalan, Provencal, and Italian to be separate
languages, or simply "dialects" of an earlier Latin? Now, let's try to tackle
Mandarin, Cantonese, Taiwanese, Hakka, Shanghainese, and the vast number of
other "variants" from the same point of view. Your average Portuguese speaker
will more than likely not be able to understand a speaker of Provencal, for
example, in everyday conversation. This is not to say that there are not
similarities between the two, especially if one has studied several Romance
languages, but it does prove to be an impediment to mutual comprehension. Like-
wise, a speaker of Taiwanese (which even has its own variants) and a Mandarin
speaker won't be able to understand each other, unless each has some knowledge
of the other's "dialect". As with the previous example, this does not mean that
there are not similarities, with respect to etymology, word choice, etc., but
I would tend to call the two "different languages within a language family".
Now, obviously, we have to come to the written aspect of the Chinese "languages"
and the unifying effect thereof. It's true that written Chinese can cross
dialectical barriers, at least when the speech involved is of a more standard
variety, but *not* always when more colloquial speech patterns are at hand
(songs, movies, etc.) One example that comes to mind is a cassette tape that I
have of Chen Sheng singing in Hakka. The Hakka lyrics are given, but just beside
them, a "translation" in guoyu is provided, and at times, the differences are
quite significant, especially concerning word choice, certain "invented"
characters that fulfill grammatical functions not present in Mandarin, etc. One
finds different characters for the personal pronouns (such as "I", which could
be written with the character for "wo3" and read aloud as "ngai" in Hakka, but
in this case, a completely different character was used. Along those same lines,
several Taiwanese songs that I have contain the character "ruan2", which for the
Taiwanese (pron. "gun") is the personal pronoun "we". Finally, speakers of the
various dialects will make distinctions about what variety of Chinese they
speak, especially when they are talking with other Chinese (as a Caucasian
American, when Chinese people speak to me [if the default is not English], it's
in Mandarin [if they know it], which is what they assume I'm the most likely to
have learned, and will refer to what I speak as "zhongwen" or "guoyu", etc.).
But often if I ask what is spoken at home, I'll get some sort of "-hua" response
which I interpret as awareness of separation between Mandarin and the other
varieties of Chinese... I'd love feedback on this...
"Bu rang wo yigeren zui..." :) Bye - Graham
Wen-Kai Tang
:
:
: >(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
: >(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
: >cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
: >their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
: >foreigner studies.
:
: Wait a minute here... Are you suggesting that Mandarin is
: more superior than Cantonese?? What do you mean by "educated and high
: cultured people" using Mandarin and all that??? I agree that Mandarin
: is becoming more and more important in HK as we're hitting closer to
: the 1997, but I totally disagree with what you're saying (or
: suggesting) that Mandarin will be spoken exclusively by "edcated" and
: "high cultured" people! Mandarin means "common language", to unify
: Chinese language so that we can understand each other through a
: unified system, since we have so many different dialects among us
: Chinese. People don't speak Mandarin doesn't mean that they are less
: educated or low cultured!!
No, mandarin is not superior to cantonese. But mandarin is a must in the future. For
example, I am from taiwan, ROC. It is important to speak taiwanese there, but mandarin
is a must. There is nothing wrong with cantonese and you should keep speaking it at
home if possible, but to know mandarin is a matter of survival in E. Asia.
In Singapore, where the 75% people who are Chinese speak cantonese, there has been a
large government campaign for the Chinese people there to speak mandarin, if not an
alternative to, at least as a supplement of cantoneses. The have had some recent success
since the people know that to do business in HK (after 1997), ROC or PRC, mandarian is a
needed.
: >
: > Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
: >putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
: >15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
:
: This is totally BS! I speak Cantonese, all my family,
: relatives and friends speak Cantonese, I don't see that in 15 years
: all of us will abandon Cantonese and speak Mandarin, unless we're
: forced to! If this is really gonna happen (being forced to speak
: Mandarin), then I don't know the meaning of freedom anymore!
:
You could use cantonese in you home, of course. But in public areas, all offical
announcments will be made in mandarin. So I advise you to learn mandarin soon.
There is a joke on taiwan, ROC that if the HKers do not speak mandarin aafter 1997,
they might get locked up by CCP :)
The important thing is to know both cantonese and Chineses. Just like in the US,
it is beneficial to know both Chinese and English. Speak Chinese at home, but
being that all offical stuff are in english, it is best to know it.
--
******************************************** Wen-Kai(Tony) Tang,Yale University
* Abolish All Taxes And Tariffs NOW !!!!!! * 1588 Yale Station
* World Free Trade NOW !!!!!! * New Haven, CT 06520
********************************************(203)436-1285
Wen-Kai Tang
:
:
:
: >People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
: >distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
: >actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
: >Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
: >being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
: >people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
: >'languages'.
:
: On a relate note: I used to have this peeve about people calling Mandarin
: the Chinese language, while Cantonese was simply Cantonese. I always
: thought that I knew the Cantonese dialect of Chinese, but some people
: don't seem to think so. My impression from them was that Mandarin is
: Chinese, and every other dialect is not Chinese. Please, give me some
: help here before I go nuts!
:
: Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
: when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
: at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
: to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
: accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
:
: So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
: historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
: Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
: linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
:
: So what do you folks think?
Of course you do. You speak a dialect of Chinese. As it is only 40 million out
of the 1.2 billion Chinese speak this dialect, but do not let anyone tell you that
you do not speak Chinese or that you are not Chinese.
As it is, mandarian is spoken by all Chinese as a universial dialect, and it would
be smart to learn it you do not know it. It gives you extra atvantages in communications
since you could speak to all 1.2 billion (in theory) Chinese on the PRC and all
20 million Chinese on ROC as well.
The Mandarin dialect was choosen in the 1920s as the universal dialect, it could have
easily been that cantonese dialect was choosen as the universal dialect. I think that
the someone should have said "they don't speak mandarin (guo wen on ROC or Pu-Dong hua on
PRC)" instead of "they don't speak Chinese."
Grace Yung
Cyril Chen <ak...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
[stuff deleted]
> Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
>when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
>at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
>to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
>accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
I think whoever said "Tamen.... " is not quite right, unless they jumped
to the conclusion that since you looked so blank, you must know nothing
about Chinese (any kind of dialect or Mandarin). Do they know that you
speak Cantonese? If they do, they should have said that you don't know
Mandarin, not "Chinese".
> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
I would consider you speak Chinese. Actually, my caucasian friends often
consider Cantonese = Chinese, because when they asked me how to say something
in Chinese, they know that I speak Cantonese.
>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
Well, I know that Mandarin is important and all that, but seeing that I am
from HK, I would like to consider Cantonese as Chinese as well. It would be
strange if Cantonese is not consider Chinese. I am a Chinese, born in HK,
but I don't speak "Chinese"??
Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
> So what do you folks think?
>--
>+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
>| Cyril Chen | "Only darkness has the power to make |
>| Shard Press | a man open his heart to the world." |
>| ak...@freenet.carleton.ca | --Paul Auster |
***City Hunter***
==========================================================
| Everything is my own opinions; nothing to do with MWDG |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| *%*%*%*%*%*%*%* I still miss Hong Kong *%*%*%*%*%*%*%* |
==========================================================
Grace Yung
I don't think Cantonese will ever disappear. As much as there are more
people who can speak Mandarin now-a-days in HK, the majorily still speak
in Cantonese. I highly doubt that HK people are willing to give up
Cantonese after 1997. I wouldn't for sure!!
Stanley Jeh-Chun Ma
Mr. Zhong <z...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
> Although learning both would be best, it is preferable to learn
>putonghua (Mandarin) since it will become the sole language used in Xianggang
>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>foreigner studies.
>
> Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
>putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
>15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
I really disagree that YueYu (Cantonese) will be disuse in 15 years. In
fact, I think Cantonese will still be the major language for the majority
of HKers even after 15 years. One example I can site is Taiwan. After
40+ years of Mandarin only education, where most of those years, Taiwanese
were not even allowed to be spoken in the school, the language still
thrives today, intermixed with Mandarin. You could well be considered
an "outsider" to many for not knowing Taiwanese. I think the similar
should happen in HK, where Mandarin in necessary for the work place, but
Cantonese is necessary for social interactions.
Stan
P.S.: Foreigner do learn Cantonese.
Rage aGainst the Machine..
Hoi-On Judy Wong <ho...@kits.sfu.ca> wrote:
>In article <2i3tng$7...@news.u.washington.edu> ber...@u.washington.edu (Rage aGainst the Machine..) writes:
>>In article <wskan.7...@vela.acs.oakland.edu>,
>>Fran Kan [HKPA.COMIC] <ws...@vela.acs.oakland.edu> wrote:
>>>ho...@kits.sfu.ca (Hoi-On Judy Wong) writes:
>>>
>>> [ ........... ]
>>
>you've finally got some sense in your head!
> Totally agree with you though!
>
>Cheers
>Judy =)
>--
Right on, my lady... :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Thanks for your support anyway. :-)
Brandon S. Ou
>
>I really disagree that YueYu (Cantonese) will be disuse in 15 years. In
>fact, I think Cantonese will still be the major language for the majority
>of HKers even after 15 years. One example I can site is Taiwan. After
>40+ years of Mandarin only education, where most of those years, Taiwanese
>were not even allowed to be spoken in the school, the language still
>thrives today, intermixed with Mandarin. You could well be considered
Taiwan is probably a very good senario for what is likely to happen
to Mandarin/Cantonese after 97. The best example I can think of is
Taiwanese television. One cannot watch television in Taiwan without
knowing Taiwanese; a friend of mine who speaks only Mandarin tried
to watch television with me, I laughed throughout while he just stared
blankly, heh, I suppose Japanese is integrated also, but not enough
to make a difference. And if you travel to the more rural countryside
area where they DO speak Taiwanese in the schools (so I heard),
oh boy, are you going to have a tough time if you don't speak it.
>an "outsider" to many for not knowing Taiwanese. I think the similar
>should happen in HK, where Mandarin in necessary for the work place, but
>Cantonese is necessary for social interactions.
From my point of view, I really can't see how this huge entertainment
business will be without Cantonese, but maybe the real question is what
will happen once Socialism replaces Capitalism...?
--
Brandon S. Ou ~{E7Ji:j~} bs...@caslon.CS.Arizona.EDU
University of Arizona Tucson, Arizona
~{9y>8#:!85\WS5CWoAK;F5:Vw#,LX@4AlK@!#!9!!#-=pS9VxV.!:Id5qS"P[4+!;~}
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, gy...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Grace Yung) says:
>In article <CK861...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>Cyril Chen <ak...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>> Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
>>when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
>>at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
>>to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
>>accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
>
>I think whoever said "Tamen.... " is not quite right, unless they jumped
>to the conclusion that since you looked so blank, you must know nothing
>about Chinese (any kind of dialect or Mandarin). Do they know that you
>speak Cantonese? If they do, they should have said that you don't know
>Mandarin, not "Chinese".
Everybody in the room was Chinese, and many spoke Cantonese also. The
major actors are from Shanghai, I think, but most people spoke Mandarin.
They were all strangers to me, though, as I was just an extra.
>I would consider you speak Chinese. Actually, my caucasian friends often
>consider Cantonese = Chinese, because when they asked me how to say something
>in Chinese, they know that I speak Cantonese.
This is the same as my experience.
Zzzzzz....
>It seems to me that this comes back to the eternal question of where to draw the
>line between a dialect and a language. What about this? Do you consider French,
>Spanish, (Romanian), Portuguese, Catalan, Provencal, and Italian to be separate
>languages, or simply "dialects" of an earlier Latin?
Okay, I really have not been exposed to the above languages that you
mention except for French. But I would guess that those are different
languages with similar roots of words. I believe they have different
syntax and different vocabularies. I don't know, I sure think English is
very differnet from French, although they came from the same root. Note
that when I talk about their differences, I am talking about the written
form of communication.
>Your average Portuguese speaker
>will more than likely not be able to understand a speaker of Provencal, for
>example, in everyday conversation. This is not to say that there are not
>similarities between the two, especially if one has studied several Romance
>languages, but it does prove to be an impediment to mutual comprehension.
Well, again, I have no way to make a comparison because I have not
studied those languages. Although from my very limited observation
French and Spanish are very similar, but different enough to be two
separate language. Heck, for one thing, they spell their words
differently.
>Like-
>wise, a speaker of Taiwanese (which even has its own variants) and a Mandarin
>speaker won't be able to understand each other, unless each has some knowledge
>of the other's "dialect". As with the previous example, this does not mean that
>there are not similarities, with respect to etymology, word choice, etc., but
>I would tend to call the two "different languages within a language family".
You know, the way you call it 'different languages withint a language
family' is actually very similar to the word 'dialect'. However, in the
case of Chinese dialects, I would think the sentence structures and the
syntax are all the same, just with some localization like slangs (for
instance the HK Cantonese is in some way different from the Canton
Cantonese).
>(songs, movies, etc.) One example that comes to mind is a cassette tape that I
>have of Chen Sheng singing in Hakka. The Hakka lyrics are given, but just beside
>them, a "translation" in guoyu is provided, and at times, the differences are
>quite significant, especially concerning word choice, certain "invented"
>characters that fulfill grammatical functions not present in Mandarin, etc.
Okay, I can't talk about Hakka since my exposure to this dialect is VERY
limited. You can throw me like 10 sentences of Hakka and I'll be
greatful if I can even understand 10 words from it. :P
But let's talk about Cantonese vs. Mandarin instead, since I think I am
more qualified to speak about these two dialects. The way we speak and
write Chinese (we as in Cantonese speakers) are very different, but in
some cases (for instance movies, and songs etc.), people try to write
down the words exactly the way they are expressed in Cantonese. Many
times this is done by using similar sounding words in Chinese (ack,
what's the word for it, I can't get it out :( ), and if no character is
available, simply put a 'mouth' next to the word that is closet sounding
to it. This form of written expression can hardly be a separate language
at all. Of course, if this goes further, it might develop into a
different language, having different sentence structures and syntax. But
I really don't see this coming in the near future, so I guess it's still
pretty safe to call Cantonese just a dialect, not a language.
>One
>finds different characters for the personal pronouns (such as "I", which could
>be written with the character for "wo3" and read aloud as "ngai" in Hakka, but
>in this case, a completely different character was used.
Err..sorry, you lost me there. Since I don't know Hakka, I really don't
know what you're referring to as 'ngai'. But there are many different
Chinese characters that can be used as "I", and of course, even the same
character will sound different in different dialect. However, it's still
the same character, just sound different.
>Finally, speakers of the
>various dialects will make distinctions about what variety of Chinese they
>speak, especially when they are talking with other Chinese (as a Caucasian
>American, when Chinese people speak to me [if the default is not English], it's
>in Mandarin [if they know it], which is what they assume I'm the most likely to
>have learned, and will refer to what I speak as "zhongwen" or "guoyu", etc.).
>But often if I ask what is spoken at home, I'll get some sort of "-hua" response
>which I interpret as awareness of separation between Mandarin and the other
>varieties of Chinese... I'd love feedback on this...
Hm, I am kinda confuse again, what do you mean by some sort of '-hua'
response? (gosh, I feel dumb now :P) But generally, Chinese people tend
to categorize Mandarin as the official Chinese dialect, that's why people
assume that foreigners will learn to speak Mandarin if they know
Chinese. And it's perfectly fine to call what you speak as 'Zhongwen',
because that stand for 'Chinese'. As far as I am concern, all the
different dialect are chinese. But the term 'guoyu' is different, it
refers to the offcial dialect of the country (think this term is used in
ROC). So only Mandarin, in this case, will fit the description.
Well, I am no linguist or anything, but since you seem to be interested
in this topic, I thought I'd give my 2 cents' worth. Comments,
feedbacks, corrections or criticisms are more then welcome. :)
Peace.
Sleepy
Aaron Wong
> Although learning both would be best, it is preferable to learn
>putonghua (Mandarin) since it will become the sole language used in Xianggang
>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>foreigner studies.
>
> Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
>putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
>15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
Typical Mandarin chauvanist wishful thinking!
English has always been the sole official language of Hong Kong until 1971.
You don't see Cantonese fading from disuse then, why now?
My friends from Shanghai speaks shanghainese amongst themselves, while those
from Kaoshiung speak Taiwanese fluently.
Hearing people say things like that makes me want to follow the examples set
upon by Quebecers and Catalans.
Besides, the popularity of Cantonese songs and TV will see to the survival of
the language.
BTW, Cornell offers Cantonese courses of different levels every semester. So
much for your "No foreigners study Yueyu" claim!
Ngok
Dicky Yan
Perhaps the fact that people in Canton still speak Cantonese (do they?)
is an indication that Cantonese is likely to remain in HK?
Dicky
Aaron Wong
>People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>'languages'.
I hate to upset you, but linguists world wide have yet to reach a consenus on
this topic, and the majority of the linguistics books I read say that these
are all different languages under the Sinitic branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.
They site mutual unintelligibity for support, and I believe them.
Ngok
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, sj...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (MA JEH-CHUN) says:
The quoted postings are below, if anyone really wants to read them...
Stan, you've reminded me of several instances in my experience when people
equated Cantonese with Chinese, and Mandarin was another language. One
guy was trying to describe a Sandy Lam song to me as "sung in another
language, not Chinese" and I had to correct him. The song was "Ai Shang
Yi Ge Bu Hui Jia Di Ren" (I Love A Man Who Doesn't Return Home, or
something). So thanks for letting me see the reverse position. :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In article <CK861...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>Cyril Chen <ak...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>>On a relate note: I used to have this peeve about people calling Mandarin
>>the Chinese language, while Cantonese was simply Cantonese. I always
>>thought that I knew the Cantonese dialect of Chinese, but some people
>>don't seem to think so. My impression from them was that Mandarin is
>>Chinese, and every other dialect is not Chinese. Please, give me some
>>help here before I go nuts!
>>
>> Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
>>when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
>>at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
>>to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
>>accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
>>
>> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>>
>> So what do you folks think?
>>--
>>+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
>>| Cyril Chen | "Only darkness has the power to make |
>>| Shard Press | a man open his heart to the world." |
>>| ak...@freenet.carleton.ca | --Paul Auster |
>
>Hi Cyril...your case sounds awfully similar to mine, yet just the opposite.
>I'm a native Mandarin speaker, but because my father is from Canton, I also
>speak Cantonese. Since there are a disportinate amount of Chinese people
>who are HKers, I naturally have almost all HK friends. However, whenever
>they mention the term "Chinese" (as in the language), they ALWAYS say
>"Chung Mun". Not only that, they make a CLEAR DISTINCTION between
>"Chung Mun" and Mandarin, of which they call "Guok Yu". I can pick out
>tonnes of cases, but I'll just share with you one common one.....
>Whenever the topic of music rolls around....say we are talking out what
>good songs are out there....I would mention one of my favourites. Often,
>the songs I would mention is Mandarin. People not familiar with the song
>would ask other and they would reply (I'm translating here), "OH, that song
>is not in Chinese(ChungMun), it's in Mandarin(Guok Yu)". Hell, they bothered
>the dickens out of me. Or how about this one.....I go to my friends place,
>who is from HK, and he tells his parents that I don't speak Chinese (Chung-
>Mun) at home, but instead I speak Mandarin (Guok Yu).
>
>My feeling about it is this. The reason they consistently refer to
>Cantonese as "Chinese" is because this is the only Chinese language that
>they grew up with and that surrounds them. And I think this is true
>in your instance too. If all their life, someone grew up speaking one
>Chinese dialect or another, they'll think that they speak Chinese. And since
>they are Chinese, they'll often refer to their own particular dialect
>as Chinese also, they'll often distinquish their dialect with your by
>saying that you don't speak Chinese (which is what they naturally call
>their own dialect).
>
>Interesting enough though, I don't find Taiwanese people refer to
>Taiwanese (or Minna Hua) as Chinese. Perhaps it's because Mandarin
>is taught as the official language. Since the "official" language of
>China (whichever one you want to choose) is Mandarin, the term Chinese
>is often synonymous with Mandarin.
>
>In my interpretation, I think Chinese is the language of the Chinese,
>which includes all of the dialects. Under the large header of Chinese,
>then we have smaller classes, and at the bottom, Mandarin, Hokkien, Cantonese,
>etc....
>
>Just my NT$0.02
>
>Stan
MA JEH-CHUN
>On a relate note: I used to have this peeve about people calling Mandarin
>the Chinese language, while Cantonese was simply Cantonese. I always
>thought that I knew the Cantonese dialect of Chinese, but some people
>don't seem to think so. My impression from them was that Mandarin is
>Chinese, and every other dialect is not Chinese. Please, give me some
>help here before I go nuts!
>
> Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
>when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
>at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
>to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
>accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
>
> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>
> So what do you folks think?
>--
>+-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+
>| Cyril Chen | "Only darkness has the power to make |
>| Shard Press | a man open his heart to the world." |
>| ak...@freenet.carleton.ca | --Paul Auster |
Hi Cyril...your case sounds awfully similar to mine, yet just the opposite.
Zzzzzz....
>Well, I know that Mandarin is important and all that, but seeing that I am
>from HK, I would like to consider Cantonese as Chinese as well. It would be
>strange if Cantonese is not consider Chinese. I am a Chinese, born in HK,
>but I don't speak "Chinese"??
Yah, no doubt Cantonese IS Chinese, but your logic is kinda strange. I
can be born in America, be an American, yet what I speak doesn't equal to
the American language (English). It's a complicated matter, and I am not
trying to pick on you, just a thought. That's all. :)
>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
anymore in the future.
After 1997, I would think 'Chinese' would be the official language, and
Mandarin will be used in government broadcasting. Just a guess, no need
to flame me. :)
Peace.
Sleepy
U43...@uicvm.uic.edu
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, xta...@cs.yale.edu (Wen-Kai Tang) says:
>Cyril Chen (ak...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>:
>: So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>: historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>: Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>: linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>:
>: So what do you folks think?
>
>The Mandarin dialect was choosen in the 1920s as the universal dialect, it could have
>easily been that cantonese dialect was choosen as the universal dialect. I think that
>the someone should have said "they don't speak mandarin (guo wen on ROC or Pu-Dong hua on
>PRC)" instead of "they don't speak Chinese."
OK, this makes sense, so I agree with you. It's also more polite.
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, ab...@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kelvin Leung) says:
>ak...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Cyril Chen) writes:
>
>>some facts first. Salzman went to China as an English teacher, but during
>>his two years there he managed to learn different martial arts, not just
>>kung fu, which as defined in the book, is not martial arts alone. His
>>fighting skills fall under the term *wushu*, as he calls it.
>
>Hrmm... pardon me if I am telling you the obvious: I thought _wushu_
>literally meant martial arts. (And I mean literally! :)
Hey, that's what Salzman wrote: "wushu" is martial arts. I heard that
"wuqi" is also martial arts. Somebody who knows Mandarin better than
ignorant me can verify this... :-)
>I enjoyed watching the movie. In fact, I recommended it to a few of
>my friends. A friend of mine, someone who happens to be from BeiJing,
>hated the movie. According to him, the movie is full of stereotypes--
>in particular the "mystic" aspect of the Far East, etc, etc.
So what else is new? Anytime there's something incomprehensible about
Asia to the Western mind, suddenly it's mystical... what, is Asia same as
the Twilight Zone or something?
>I viewed the movie quite differently than he did though. Leaving the
>discussion on unrealistic views of everyone being so nice aside, I kind of
>liked the way the author portrayed China and its people. I particularly
>liked a scenario in the movie: the author (being an American with an
>open mind) publically showed his affections to his Chinese peers. He
>then received some feedbacks which he weren't quite expected. I forgot
>what exactly happened, but in any case, he was frustrated. Then came
>a (Chinese) student of his. His student quietly told him the following:
>(in China) a father is not supposed to kiss his children (or show any kind
>of strong emotional feelings) in public. Yet, when the children fall
>asleep, their father might walk in and kiss their foreheads.
This is also in the book. On a related note: how do Asians feel about
publicly showing affection to loved ones? I find myself hesitating
sometimes, though my Western side says there should be no worries...
>To me, that shows (despite of the social tattboos) Chinese are just
>like your ordinary flesh-and-blood human beings with feelings.
>I guess that particularly sums up what the author meant by "Iron and
>Silk," two contradictory yet integral characteristics of Chinese values.
>
>Well... what do you all think?
I'm with you on this one, Kelvin.
Zzzzzz....
[...]
> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>
> So what do you folks think?
Welllll....I think the major problem people have is to identify Mandarin
and Cantonese as languages. Not being able to understand Mandarin
dosen't mean that you don't understand Chinese, since you seem to
understand Cantonese, which IS Chinese as well. But I do see the reason
why some people think understanding Chinese means understanding Mandarin,
because Mandarin is the universial dialect used for common understanding
between Chinese people of different regions. I don't know about other
areas, but most of the people I met from PRC are from the south, in the
Canton area. Although they can't speak Mandarin fluently, they do
understand it quite well.
Well, my 2 cents, again.
Sleepy
Donald Fisk
: >(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
: >(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and
: > high
: >cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
: >their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that
: >no foreigner studies.
There's a Teach Yourself Cantonese and a series called Speak Cantonese
published by Yale University. Hong Kong is a major regional economy and
anyone who lives there should at least attempt to learn Cantonese. Hardly
anyone speaks Mandarin there and, even though most people understand it they
do not speak it well.
The main barrier to learning the language is that almost all written
material is in Mandarin Chinese (for example newspapers) and these are
written in an ideographic script that takes about two years full time to
learn. If you wrote the language in an alphabetic script, preferably
Roman but even Hangul would be an improvement, and wrote what you say
instead of what people in Beijing would have said, you would be doing
everyone who learns the language (including children) a favour. And then
nobody would argue about whether
Cantonese was a dialect of Chinese or a separate language.
: > Therefore, if you are serious in learning Chinese, you should study
: >putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that
: >in 15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
Within a few hours' drive from London, there is a part of Britain where
you won't hear a word of English being spoken, except on radio and TV.
If you care as much about
your language as the Welsh do about theirs, it will not die out.
Hoi-On Judy Wong (ho...@kits.sfu.ca) wrote:
: I speak Cantonese, all my family,
: relatives and friends speak Cantonese, I don't see that in 15 years
: all of us will abandon Cantonese and speak Mandarin, unless we're
: forced to!
You mean like in Singapore?
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in).
Email: don...@imst.bt.co.uk
Zzzzzz....
>
>I hate to upset you, but linguists world wide have yet to reach a consenus on
>this topic, and the majority of the linguistics books I read say that these
>are all different languages under the Sinitic branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.
>
>They site mutual unintelligibity for support, and I believe them.
Upset me? Nah. I was actually expecting someone to jump out and tell me
what the linguist said sooner or later. I am not a linguist, nor close
to one. But I do have one qusetion though, and try to make it easier for
a not-so-smart person like me to understand, but how is Cantonese a
language? When you're talking about 'these are all different languages
under the....", I would think you mean more of 'Chinese', rather then
specifically Cantonese or Mandarin. But oh well, even when it's still
not a settled issue, I think it's still not appropriate to call Cantonese
a language yet.
Peace.
Sleepy
Alain
lhc...@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>2. Cantonese gives an edge to people who want to do business with HK
> people. Since the Guandong province and HK will be the largest
> economic unit in China after 1997, this is an important edge.
>
>3. There may be some intangible factors as well. HK may become the
> cultural centre of China after 1997. Learning Cantonese may become
> some sort of 'fashion' statement.
2. After 1997, there will be so many HKs (all the coastal cities-special
economic zones are potential HKs) to do business with that learning
cantonese will be just as useful as learning any other chinese dialect.
3. What makes you think that HK will become the cultural center of China?
HK has always been a business center but never was a cultural center.
Joshua: if you are only going to stay in HK then your best bet is to
learn cantonese. That is the language of the people. However most of
them know Mandarin or at least understands it.
If you want to travel around then it is best for you to learn mandarin.
You must be aware that when you go to China every region has its own
dialect. The local dialect will be the language you hear spoken on the
streets. However mandarin is the official language of China; it is
taught in all schools and anybody who went to school should know it.
Furthermore many dialects are so close to mandarin that they just sound
like mandarin with an accent. Effectively, knowing mandarin increases
your chances of understanding others and being understood by others.
Alain Shang Zhi
MA JEH-CHUN
>People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>'languages'.
>
>
>
>Dialect: form of speech perculiar to a particular region; subordinate
>variety of a language with non-standard vocabulary, pronounciation, or
>idioms.
>
>My two cents.
>
Actually, IMHO, I think that if Canton was a separate state, then the
world would consider Cantonese to be a separate language. In fact, I
also think that Cantonese differ enough from Mandarin to be a separate
language. Furthermore, if Vietnam is still a part of China as it was
in the past, I think you will also see Vietnamese downgraded to a dialect
rather than recognizing it as a language.
>
>Zzzzz.....
>
>
Stanley Jeh-Chun Ma
Wen-Kai Tang <xta...@cs.yale.edu> wrote:
>Of course you do. You speak a dialect of Chinese.
>As it is only 40 million out
>of the 1.2 billion Chinese speak this dialect,
>but do not let anyone tell you that
>you do not speak Chinese or that you are not Chinese.
>
>As it is, mandarian is spoken by all Chinese as
>a universial dialect, and it would
>be smart to learn it you do not know it.
>It gives you extra atvantages in communications
>since you could speak to all 1.2 billion
>(in theory) Chinese on the PRC and all
>20 million Chinese on ROC as well.
>
>The Mandarin dialect was choosen in the 1920s
>as the universal dialect, it could have
>easily been that cantonese dialect was
>choosen as the universal dialect. I think that
>the someone should have said "they don't
>speak mandarin (guo wen on ROC or Pu-Dong hua on
>PRC)" instead of "they don't speak Chinese."
>
>
I think Mandarin was chosen in 1911, the year the Republic of China
took over the Manchurian government. Also, they call it "Guo Yu"
(actually, spelt Kuo Yu in ROC) on the ROC and "Putonghua" on PRC.
k. lee
: As one poster has mentioned already, a lot of linguists consider Cantonese
: and Mandarin to be two distinct languages that share the same writing
: system. Of course, the complication is that there is no consensus on
: how to define "dialect", but the most common one is that of mutual
: intelligibility. The FAQ for sci.lang mentions that political and
: cultural considerations often complicate the matter, and I believe that
: one example cited is that of Danish and Finnish (I'm not positive if
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(should be Danish and Norwegian, sorry)
: these are the ones though): the two are actually mutually intelligible
: but in order to recognize the political independance of the two nations,
: they are considered two distinct languages (I'm not clear as to whether
: they are talking about the common perception or the actual opinions of
: linguists). On the other hand, Mandarin Chinese and a lot of local
: "dialects" are really mutually unintelligible and are hence distinct
: languages, but in order to recognize the sovereignty of the Chinese
: government, the latter are regarded as dialects of Chinese. Again, it
: is not clear to me whether this is the consensus among linguists or merely
: the general perception of people.
: -k.l.
MA JEH-CHUN
Brandon S. Ou <bs...@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>In soc.culture.hongkong article 61633 <CK946...@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, sj...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Stanley Jeh-Chun Ma) wrote:
>>
>>I really disagree that YueYu (Cantonese) will be disuse in 15 years. In
>>fact, I think Cantonese will still be the major language for the majority
>>of HKers even after 15 years. One example I can site is Taiwan. After
>>40+ years of Mandarin only education, where most of those years, Taiwanese
>>were not even allowed to be spoken in the school, the language still
>>thrives today, intermixed with Mandarin. You could well be considered
>
>Taiwan is probably a very good senario for what is likely to happen
>to Mandarin/Cantonese after 97. The best example I can think of is
>Taiwanese television. One cannot watch television in Taiwan without
>knowing Taiwanese; a friend of mine who speaks only Mandarin tried
They do have subtitles for many of the shows I watch.
>to watch television with me, I laughed throughout while he just stared
>blankly, heh, I suppose Japanese is integrated also, but not enough
>to make a difference. And if you travel to the more rural countryside
>area where they DO speak Taiwanese in the schools (so I heard),
>oh boy, are you going to have a tough time if you don't speak it.
Stan
Dennis Fung
> Long live Cantonese!
>- Anthony Wong
> aw...@hal.com
Ch> Well, I agree that the language will always be around but what I am
Ch> more concerned about (whether it be superficial or not) is will the
Ch> singers still sing in Cantonese?? Or will they only sing in Mandarin
Ch> because of the lost (maybe a lost maybe not) of a large source of
Ch> cantonese listeners (that being hongkong) who have the income to buy
Ch> their music? I mean, really, whether we want to believe it or
Ch> not...the HongKong entertainment business is to make money.
Ch> Well....here is something to think about.
As long as Hong Kong & Southern China are strong economically, Contonese
is THE spoken language around. If not?? Mandarin is the safe bet!
* ///\\
++++-++++++-+ (o o)
++|+-|||||+-+ \o/
++++- ------+ / Y \
Internet:denni...@canrem.com
Scarborough,ON Canada
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
HAKKIM WONG
>intelligibility. The FAQ for sci.lang mentions that political and
>cultural considerations often complicate the matter, and I believe that
>one example cited is that of Danish and Finnish (I'm not positive if
>but in order to recognize the political independance of the two nations,
>they are considered two distinct languages (I'm not clear as to whether
Wrong.
Should be Danish and Norwegian (both Bokmal and Nynorsk)
As a matter of fact, Dutch and Flemish (in Belgian) are just
languages in the Low German.
Italian and Castillian are usually intelligible.
Finnish is a totally different language from the Indo-Europeans.
>they are talking about the common perception or the actual opinions of
>linguists). On the other hand, Mandarin Chinese and a lot of local
>"dialects" are really mutually unintelligible and are hence distinct
>languages, but in order to recognize the sovereignty of the Chinese
>government, the latter are regarded as dialects of Chinese. Again, it
>is not clear to me whether this is the consensus among linguists or merely
>the general perception of people.
>-k.l.
Cantonese is clearly a Chinese language (history, syntax, vocabulary,
etc), and as long as the Cantonese like most of the netters here
think they are Chinese, then Cantonese is a Chinese dialect.
k. lee
and Mandarin to be two distinct languages that share the same writing
system. Of course, the complication is that there is no consensus on
how to define "dialect", but the most common one is that of mutual
cultural considerations often complicate the matter, and I believe that
one example cited is that of Danish and Finnish (I'm not positive if
these are the ones though): the two are actually mutually intelligible
but in order to recognize the political independance of the two nations,
they are considered two distinct languages (I'm not clear as to whether
Rage aGainst the Machine..
In article <CKAu4...@hpopd.pwd.hp.com>, y...@pwd.hp.com (Yuk Lun Chan) writes:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 1994 08:05:42 GMT, Zzzzzz.... (sle...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> >>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
>
> >You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
> >English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
> >anymore in the future.
cantonese DOMINATES since most HK people speak it, and it makes no
difference whether its official or else, as long as it isnt a criminal
offense against the law 'not to speak the official language of HK' then
cantonese rules ok. speak cantonese or die. :-)
*ps* those stoopid brits made english the official language to ensure their
sovereignty over us but now they are wilting away so that'd be the case.
make sure that i never said its not ok to learn english.
Albert...(aka beRtie on IRC)
Quach Quy Chi
>>
>>Zzzzz.....
>>
>>
I agree with the above that Cantonese is considered a dialect only
because it is not its own seperate state. But consider this...Tibet at
this point is a part of China, but do we consider the native language
spoken by the Tibetans as another dialect of Chinese? What do you think?
Chi
Aaron Wong
>
>>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
>
>You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
>English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
>anymore in the future.
Since 1971, Cantonese and English have been co-official in Hong Kong.
Ngok
David Stuart
I think that is the most important point. People think that the dialect they speak is the
only Chinese language in the world. So, they use "Chinese" to represent their own dialect
(Mandarin or Cantonese or whatever). We care about the words we use (especially in this
newsgroup, otherwise, another argument will be set up) but some other people don't care.
As soon as they can use their words to communicate with the people in their daily life, I
think that should be OK. Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghaiese .... all are Chinese.
Huk Jang-mi
[whole paragraph deleted]
A note to Mr. Harris, please if you would not mind, press <enter> and
break the whole posting into paragraphs. I lost track after a while
having to scroll the screen reading one whole paragraph. Thank you.
Regarding language and dialect, as far as I know, language is more
widely known by more ppl. I have always thought that Mandarin is kinda
the "official" language of so called "chinese". I never break down
Chinese into Chinese and Taiwanese, I didn't even know that ppl in
Taiwan call themselves Taiwanese and get offended when they are grouped
with Chinese. oh, btw, I was born in Taiwan, and raised in Hong Kong.
And I have always referred to myself as a Chinese until I saw that
distinction on the net. Anyway, before I go off the tangent, I thought
all us "Chinese" know Mandarin to certain extent that we can communicate
at least in one form. All others, including Cantonese, are dialect, no?
Maybe my information is wrong, I don't know. But that has been how I
understand our language and dialects. Hong Kong is somewhat in a
different situation, I think, not all know Mandarin. I have no clue as
to why that is the case. Anyhow, please correct me if my perception is
wrong.
-blkrose
Cyril Chen
In a previous article, aw...@cs.cornell.edu (Aaron Wong) says:
>Do you speak Swiss?
Actually, I think there *is* a Swiss language, but I can't remember what
it's called. Does it start with "R"?
>Do you speak Canadian?
Well, there are Canadian dictionaries around, as there are American and
English dictionaries. Canadian editors are capable of making sure that
writing is in either American or British English, or both. Spelling of
words is a big part of this. Then there are the pronunciations of French
words, which tend to sound French, depending on how much of an anglophone
that one is. So do I speak Canadian? It depends on the person I'm
speaking with, I suppose! :-)
Zzzzz.....
After much debate with myself of whether I should post this or reply
directly through email (including posting and canceling it a few times :P)...
In article <2i8jo0$7...@amhux3.amherst.edu> kl...@unix.amherst.edu (k. lee) writes:
[...]
>Of course, the complication is that there is no consensus on
>how to define "dialect", but the most common one is that of mutual
>intelligibility.
[...]
>On the other hand, Mandarin Chinese and a lot of local
>"dialects" are really mutually unintelligible and are hence distinct
>languages,
[...]
I am trying not to be picky, but you really confused me there. :(
First you talked about mutual intelligibility as a way of distinguishing
dialects, then you said the different dialects are distinct languages
because they are not mutually intelligible? Care to explain a little more?
The way I am reading is, if people speaking Cantonese cannot understand
people speaking Mandarin, then these two are two different dialects.
However, I don't see how that can equate to them being distinct languages
becuase the written form of communication should also be taken into
consideration. And by all means, chinese speak different dialects but
write the same language. Am I being too critical, or am I being too
stupid to see the issue about whether they are dialects or languages?
Oh well. Just my 2 cents.
Peace.
Sleepy
Aaron Wong
>
> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>
> So what do you folks think?
Do you speak Swiss?
Do you speak Canadian?
How about Filipino? Indian? Yugoslavian?
Do you speak Native-American? (Fool question of the week!)
People who asks me whether I speak Chinese merely shows me that they are
ignorant, and I never fail to enlighten them, politely, of course. There's
no need to get mad or upset.
To those who accuse me of not speaking "Chinese", I'd listen to everything they
say in Mandarin, and give them a rude surprise later. :}
I am certainly never responsible for what others' misconceptions say about me.
Ngok
Yuk Lun Chan
>>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
>You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
>English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
>anymore in the future.
Half mistake. Both English and Chinese are offical language although
English is the business language. But there are no mention of cantonese
or mandarin.
--
The above statements do not express the opinion of the Hewlett-Packard Company
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuk Lun Chan, Software Development Engineer
E-mail : y...@hpopd.pwd.HP.COM Desk : Yuk Lun Chan/HP1600
Openmail : Yuk-Lun Chan/pinewood,lab,hpopd
X400: C=GB, ADMD=GOLD 400, PRMD=HP, ORG=HP, OU1=pinewood, SN=Chan, GN=Yuk-Lun
Wen-Kai Tang
: In soc.culture.hongkong article 61633 <CK946...@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>, sj...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Stanley Jeh-Chun Ma) wrote:
: >
: >I really disagree that YueYu (Cantonese) will be disuse in 15 years. In
: >fact, I think Cantonese will still be the major language for the majority
: >of HKers even after 15 years. One example I can site is Taiwan. After
: >40+ years of Mandarin only education, where most of those years, Taiwanese
: >were not even allowed to be spoken in the school, the language still
: >thrives today, intermixed with Mandarin. You could well be considered
:
: Taiwan is probably a very good senario for what is likely to happen
: to Mandarin/Cantonese after 97. The best example I can think of is
: Taiwanese television. One cannot watch television in Taiwan without
: knowing Taiwanese; a friend of mine who speaks only Mandarin tried
: blankly, heh, I suppose Japanese is integrated also, but not enough
: to make a difference. And if you travel to the more rural countryside
: area where they DO speak Taiwanese in the schools (so I heard),
: oh boy, are you going to have a tough time if you don't speak it.
I think not. I watch TV of the ROC via satillite all the time. One could understand
what is going on while knowing mandarin only. The news are broadcasted in both
mandarin and taiwanese sectors, so you could watch which one you like better. The
mandarin is more preciese and has more info. (since it is longer then the taiwanese one)
So in all, mandarin is still more important on taiwan, ROC then taiwanese, even though taiwanese is
also important.
My whole point is that I want the people on ROC and HK to know mandarin, since that is
the offical language. They may speak taiwanese (Fukianese) or cantonese in their homes
if they wish.
: >an "outsider" to many for not knowing Taiwanese. I think the similar
: >should happen in HK, where Mandarin in necessary for the work place, but
: >Cantonese is necessary for social interactions.
:
: From my point of view, I really can't see how this huge entertainment
: business will be without Cantonese, but maybe the real question is what
: will happen once Socialism replaces Capitalism...?
After I visited HK and Senzhen, I am convinced that Senzhen is more capitalistic
then HK. So 1997 is just moving from UK capitalism to Chinese capitalism.
Of course cantonese will still be an important dialect after 1997. All I am
saying is that it would be wise for all Chinese (in PRC, ROC, and HK) to learn
mandarin, since, for better or for worse, it is the universal dialect.
******************************************** Wen-Kai(Tony) Tang,Yale University
* Abolish All Taxes And Tariffs NOW !!!!!! * 1588 Yale Station
* World Free Trade NOW !!!!!! * New Haven, CT 06520
********************************************(203)436-1285
Eric F
[lines deleted]
|> After 1997, I would think 'Chinese' would be the official language, and
|> Mandarin will be used in government broadcasting. Just a guess, no need
|> to flame me. :)
|>
|> Peace.
|>
|> Sleepy
|>
|>
It's been a while since I was in Hong Kong (about 6 months) but they're already broadcasting some of the news in Mandarin - perhaps what will happen is that _all_ the major institutions will 'go over' to Mandarin and force people (by default) to follow?
No flames please - I reckon this is a fair comment ;-)
EsF
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The reason politicians rule the world is that scientists _know_ what's going
on".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
k. lee
: After much debate with myself of whether I should post this or reply
: Peace.
: Sleepy
Sorry if I didn't express myself quite well. I was, by the way, merely
paraphrasing what I read in the FAQ for sci.lang, so you might want to
check it out yourself. What I was trying to say (or what I think the
FAQ was saying) is that if 2 "dialects" are mutually unintelligible,
then a lot of linguists consider them distinct languages than dialects.
But this criterion often gives way to other, namely political and
cultural considerations. The FAQ gives an example in each of the two
cases:
1). Mutually intelligible, hence would normally be regarded by linguists
as different dialects of the same language, but in reality referred to
as 2 distinct languages because of political reasons: Danish and Norwegian.
Presumably because of the need to recognize Denmark and Norway as separate
and independent sociopolitical and/or cultural entities.
2.) Mutually unintelligible, hence would normally be regarded by linguists
as different languages, but in reality referred to as dialects:
Mandarin and "several of its dialects" were cited, but the FAQ did not
specifically use Cantonese as an example.
One other point the FAQ raises which might be relevant in this discussion
is the need to distinguish between a language and its writing system.
Languages can evolve independently of any writing system, and later when
literacy arises can borrow a preexisting writing system from another
language. This does not necessarily mean that the 2 languages are related.
The particular examples they used include Chinese and the kanji system
of Japanese. Apparently, Japanese does not belong to the same family
of languages as Chinese.
Of course, I'm not sure how well this example parallela the Cantonese-
Mandarin situation, since the written languages of the 2 are essentially
identical (except for the simplication of characters and maybe some
local expressions), but at the same time, spoken and written Cantonese
(written in formal situations) are so vastly different that perhaps one
can argue that when Cantonese-speakers write, they are actually "writing
in Mandarin" rather than "writing in Cantonese", i.e. practically
using a different language to express themselves in writing than when
speaking. True "written Cantonese" is to me all those characters with
the "mouth" radical, those characters your high school teacher would
never have accepted.
-k.l.
Dennis Fung
-=> Quoting Louis Lin to All <=-
LL> I even think (HK style) Cantonese will gain more popularity after 1997
LL> for the following reasons(my hypothesis):
LL> 1. The language people speak will be influence most by what they
LL> encounter most. As far as I can see, HK music/movies/TV series
LL> have an edge over mainland products in terms of popular
LL> entertainment. These are produced in Cantonese(may be dubbed in
LL> Mandarin, but if people want the newest or the original, they have
LL> to watch the Cantonese version).
For time being, I agreed with you 100% Cantonese is never going to
die!
LL> 2. Cantonese gives an edge to people who want to do business with HK
LL> people. Since the Guandong province and HK will be the largest
LL> economic unit in China after 1997, this is an important edge.
It all depends how the mainland commie treat Hong Kong people as a
distingush group of people culturally speaking. They enjoy more freedom
than the rest of mainland Chinese.
LL> 3. There may be some intangible factors as well. HK may become the
LL> cultural centre of China after 1997. Learning Cantonese may
LL> become some sort of 'fashion' statement.
Cultural centre of China?? Well,it is way too early to say for sure.
As long as the Hong Kong people can keep their way of life.
The answer is a definitely YES!
* --\ \\\\\////
--- --- --- --- ||__ "Boy,tell me about your \\\\\//
| | |-- | | | | | | bad hair day" ( O O )
---- --- __________/ I \_/ l
\___/
Internet:denni...@canrem.com / Y \
Scarborough,ON Canada
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Aaron Wong
>The way I am reading is, if people speaking Cantonese cannot understand
>people speaking Mandarin, then these two are two different dialects.
>However, I don't see how that can equate to them being distinct languages
>becuase the written form of communication should also be taken into
>consideration.
No. No one writes Cantonese. What is written is Mandarin. Remember that the
modern written Chinese is the result of the 1917 New Culture Movement that
happened in the North. They advocated "My hand write my mouth" policy, and
their "mouth" happened to speak Mandarin. And so all China has been writing
Mandarin, regardless of the local language.
"Written forms" are unreliable.
For example, Serbo-Croatian. Serbian write in Cyrillic, Croats write in
Roman. Does that make them distinct? No, despite their wishes, the two
languages are similar enough to be one.
Another example, classical Japanese is written identically to classical Chinese.
What does that imply about classical Japanese and Chinese? Nothing. Classical
Japanese has no relation whatsoever with Middle Chinese.
Cantonese is a language. Beijinghua is a language. Mandarin is also a lang.
Are Beijinghua and Mandarin different enough to be different langs? Nope.
Are Cantonese and Mandarin different enough? I would say so.
Why? Mutual Unintelligibility.
Is that necessary and sufficient? Yes.
>And by all means, chinese speak different dialects but
>write the same language. Am I being too critical, or am I being too
>stupid to see the issue about whether they are dialects or languages?
What if in Europe, people write Latin only, and no one had bothered to invent
written English and French and Italian even though people speak them, would you
then say that French and Polish are merely dialects "because" they are write
"european" (latin)?
Ngok
Louis Lin
Alain <ala...@photonics.ee.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>3. There may be some intangible factors as well. HK may become the
>> cultural centre of China after 1997. Learning Cantonese may become
>> some sort of 'fashion' statement.
>
>HK has always been a business center but never was a cultural center.
>
It is just a speculation. I believe in mainland, the ratio of
'serious' culture to popular culture will decrease. It is because
government subsidies to 'serious' culture will decrease, just like
all other government subsidies, an inevidable direction towards
market economy. On the other hand, when the people is given a choice,
I believe the mass will choose popular culture over 'serious' culture.
Since HK is already a centre of popular culture in Asia, if mainland
demands popular culture, it will be the easiest place to import from.
Of course, the validity of such arguement is based on the assumption
that the Chinese government will continue its openness policy.
--
--------------------------------------------
Louis "Work Soft, Play Hard" Lin
My play address : lhc...@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca
My work address : ll...@newbridge.com
Alain
If the CCP continues its openess policy, then pop culture will start
popping everywhere in China and HK will definitely not be the hot place
to be. Pop culture is nice. But to qualify a place as a *cultural
center* requires much more artistic and cultural activities than simply
a couple of handsomely dressed singers singing "I luv you I luv you" in a
monotone.
Shang Zhi
Aaron Wong
>Maybe my information is wrong, I don't know. But that has been how I
>understand our language and dialects. Hong Kong is somewhat in a
>different situation, I think, not all know Mandarin. I have no clue as
>to why that is the case. Anyhow, please correct me if my perception is
>wrong.
Because Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages. You just can't expect
people to know one and therefore the other. Mandarin is not (generally) taught
in school. When we have Chinese lessons, it's all in Cantonese.
Ngok
Anthony Wong (or LM)
| Actually, I think there *is* a Swiss language, but I can't remember what
| it's called. Does it start with "R"?
I think it is called Romansch, which is another off-branch from Latin.
- Anthony Wong
aw...@hal.com
Wing Ng
>In article <2i41ro$5...@istanbul.mdd.comm.mot.com> gy...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Grace Yung) writes:
>>
>>I don't think Cantonese will ever disappear. As much as there are more
>>people who can speak Mandarin now-a-days in HK, the majorily still speak
>>in Cantonese. I highly doubt that HK people are willing to give up
>>Cantonese after 1997. I wouldn't for sure!!
>>
>>
>>***City Hunter***
>>
>>==========================================================
>>| Everything is my own opinions; nothing to do with MWDG |
>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>| *%*%*%*%*%*%*%* I still miss Hong Kong *%*%*%*%*%*%*%* |
>>==========================================================
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps the fact that people in Canton still speak Cantonese (do they?)
>
People in Canton certainly do speak Cantonese.
Wing
>is an indication that Cantonese is likely to remain in HK?
>
>Dicky
>
Wing Ng
>
>
>In a previous article, sle...@netcom.com (Zzzzzz....) says:
>
>>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>>'languages'.
>
>the Chinese language, while Cantonese was simply Cantonese. I always
>thought that I knew the Cantonese dialect of Chinese, but some people
>don't seem to think so. My impression from them was that Mandarin is
>Chinese, and every other dialect is not Chinese. Please, give me some
>help here before I go nuts!
>
> Here I am, sitting in a room full of Chinese opera participants,
>when an older lady starts talking to me and my friend in Mandarin. I look
>at her blankly because I don't know this dialect well. Someone else says
>to her about us: "Tamen bu shuo zhongwen" (I think my pinyin is
>accurate), or "They don't speak Chinese."
That old lady must be from Taiwan. ROC inculcates this habit of
referring to Guo Yu as Zhong Wen, irritating.
Mainlanders use the term Han Yu or Putonghua, even Guo Yu these
days, but never Zhong Wen.
Wing
>
> So my question is: do I speak Chinese or not? I feel there is a
>historical basis for this linguistic "oddity," that Mandarin is the
>Chinese language (zhongwen, or in Cantonese, chungmun), but my historical
>linguistics, or whatever one wants to call it, is lacking in Asian languages.
>
> So what do you folks think?
Wing Ng
>In article <2i45gh$9...@pirates.cs.swt.edu> ch0...@stella.math.swt.edu (I've got the Blues) writes:
>>>>ho...@kits.sfu.ca (Hoi-On Judy Wong) writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>
>>
>>>>>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>>>>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>>>>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>>>>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>>>>>foreigner studies.
>
>>
>>Whoever said the above is a racist and he/she is just so bored that
>>raising flame is his/her sole business.
>>
>
> Hey, don't put my name (Hoi-On Judy Wong) on top of this BS, I
>just replied to it, I DID NOT write it!! It was some "smart" guy from
>Stanford did it!
> Long Live Cantonese!
>
notorious mr. Zhong at Stanford did it again. I think he
started a flame war one year ago by officially changing Hong Kong
to Xianggang.
Wing
>Cheers
>Judy =)
>--
>*****************************************
> "It's only because I want everything
> I do to be perfect that I never
> actually do anything!"
MA JEH-CHUN
Donald Fisk <don...@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: >(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>: >(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and
>: > high
>: >cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>: >their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that
>: >no foreigner studies.
>
>published by Yale University. Hong Kong is a major regional economy and
>anyone who lives there should at least attempt to learn Cantonese. Hardly
>anyone speaks Mandarin there and, even though most people understand it they
>do not speak it well.
>
>The main barrier to learning the language is that almost all written
>material is in Mandarin Chinese (for example newspapers) and these are
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is not entirely true. Written Chinese is not taken from Mandarin
Chinese, and the language is not "written" in Mandarin Chinese either.
Throughout history, the written form has always differed from the
spoken form in almost all dialects. Mandarin is simply a dialect which
follows closely to the written standard.
>written in an ideographic script that takes about two years full time to
>learn. If you wrote the language in an alphabetic script, preferably
>Roman but even Hangul would be an improvement, and wrote what you say
>instead of what people in Beijing would have said, you would be doing
>everyone who learns the language (including children) a favour. And then
>nobody would argue about whether
>Cantonese was a dialect of Chinese or a separate language.
>
How would writing Chinese in alphabetic script be an improvement!!!!!?????
In doing so, you will destroy the comprehensibility of numerous masterpieces
in Chinese literature, as romanization of words will lose the meaning
behind Chinese characters. Also, as many Chinese words have the same
pronounciation, yet drastically and totally unrelated meaning, writing
the language in Roman will just be a disaster. People who grew up with
the language have no problems with it.
Zzzzz.....
In article <1994Jan28.1...@cs.cornell.edu> aw...@cs.cornell.edu (Aaron Wong) writes:
[...]
>Cantonese is a language. Beijinghua is a language. Mandarin is also a
lang.
>Are Beijinghua and Mandarin different enough to be different langs? Nope.
>Are Cantonese and Mandarin different enough? I would say so.
>Why? Mutual Unintelligibility.
>Is that necessary and sufficient? Yes.
While this disccusion is going on, I have been learning by picking up
useful informations from other netters. But you seem not to be really
discussing this 'unsettled issue', instead, you seem to have made a
conclusion already. Remember, there's still no definite line between
dialect and language (according to what I have been reading so far that
is). So please don't be hasty in concluding that Cantonese and Mandarin
are all different languages. There can always be disputes on whether
Cantonese and Mandarin are truly mutual unintelligible, but then, I don't
think I am qualified enough to make a thorough statement about this.
However, I think before there's a definite answer to this, you shouldn't
be calling those languages, just the same reason why you think I shouldn't
call them dialects.
>What if in Europe, people write Latin only, and no one had bothered to invent
>written English and French and Italian even though people speak them, would you
>then say that French and Polish are merely dialects "because" they are write
>"european" (latin)?
Yes, I would. Why not? You might think written form of communication
should not be considered but I think it is very important. You have
sited some examples of languages that are evolved from the same root.
Yes, I think some of them are different languages right now, but were the
same language before. As much as I believe human culture are changing
and evolving on a continous basis, I don't see why languages can't be
evolved as well. Again, if there is in fact a totally different written
system for the Cantonese that shows different syntax, vocabulary, and
sentence structures from Chinese, then I think it wouldn't be wrong to
classify Cantonese as a separate language. Again, this is obviously a
lot more complicated then I ever expected, because I have always thought
that the differences between dialect and language is more then obvious.
But now, I think I really need to read and do more research on this
topic. You, on the other hand, should try to think about why Cantonese
and Mandarin might be classified as the same language, but different
dialects as well. People have differnet opinions, and many time,
especially in an unsettled issue like this on, you can hardly call other
people's opinions wrong.
Oh well, just my 2 cents.
Sleepy
Zzzzz.....
>Because Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages. You just can't expect
>people to know one and therefore the other. Mandarin is not (generally) taught
>in school. When we have Chinese lessons, it's all in Cantonese.
I hate to upset you (sounds familiar?) but this is still an unsettled
issue whether Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages or not.
Don't you think knowing how to write Chinese will definitely help you
understand the different dialects of Chinese better? But anyhow, since
the Chinese lessons are taught in Cantonese, don't you think Cantonese IS
Chinese? So does that leave a chance of Cantonese being a dialect of
Chinese? Not a definite thing, but not totally out of the question either.
Sleepy
Wing Ng
in the Tibet case, it's a matter of degree: Sino-Tibetan used to
be one single language, 3-4,000 years ago. There is claim that
Jiang=Tibet, and Jiang (Keung) was one of the prime ministers
of Zhou dynasty.
Cantonese probably separately evolved 2,000 years ago, so Tibetan
had 1-2,000 years more separation than Cantonese does.
On the other hand, the Uighurs in Xinjiang speak a Turkic language,
totally unrelated to Chinese, and their language cannot possibly
be construed as a dialect of Chinese.
Wing
Wing Ng
>In article <sleepyCK...@netcom.com>, Zzzzzz.... <sle...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>People, I don't mean to be picky or anything, but please stop
>>distinguishing Cantonese as a different 'language'? The language is
>>actually called 'Chinese' and not mandarin nor cantonese by themselves.
>>Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese are all dialects. I am sorry if I am
>>being picky about the choice of words, but it really bothers me to see
>>people discussing about cantonese and mandarin while calling them
>>'languages'.
>>
>>
>>From the Oxford dictionary:
>>
>>Dialect: form of speech perculiar to a particular region; subordinate
>>variety of a language with non-standard vocabulary, pronounciation, or
>>idioms.
>>
>>My two cents.
>>
>
>Actually, IMHO, I think that if Canton was a separate state, then the
>world would consider Cantonese to be a separate language. In fact, I
>also think that Cantonese differ enough from Mandarin to be a separate
>language. Furthermore, if Vietnam is still a part of China as it was
>in the past, I think you will also see Vietnamese downgraded to a dialect
>rather than recognizing it as a language.
>
That's exactly right.
In the Tang Dynasty, Guangdong and Vietnam together was one
province (Dou, as in road), with capital in Hanoi, I believe.
It was like Inner/Outer Mongolia, Vietnam split off, but Guangdong
remained.
Many words in Vietnamese sound exactly the same as Cantonese,
e.g. doc lap (independence).
Wing
>>
>>Zzzzz.....
>>
>>
>
>
Wing Ng
>In article <2i6it6$a...@df16h.mdd.comm.mot.com> gy...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Grace Yung) writes:
>>from HK, I would like to consider Cantonese as Chinese as well. It would be
>>strange if Cantonese is not consider Chinese. I am a Chinese, born in HK,
>>but I don't speak "Chinese"??
>
>Yah, no doubt Cantonese IS Chinese, but your logic is kinda strange. I
>can be born in America, be an American, yet what I speak doesn't equal to
>the American language (English). It's a complicated matter, and I am not
>trying to pick on you, just a thought. That's all. :)
>
>>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
>
>You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
>English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
>anymore in the future.
>
>Mandarin will be used in government broadcasting. Just a guess, no need
I doubt that very much, that mandarin will be used in govt. broadcasting.
on the other hand, it is rather likely that simplified characters
will be used in school, and there will be a lot more mandarin
classes, slowly introducing more mandarin in the younger gneration.
Wing
Wing Ng
>
>>
>>I hate to upset you, but linguists world wide have yet to reach a consenus on
>>this topic, and the majority of the linguistics books I read say that these
>>are all different languages under the Sinitic branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.
>>
>>They site mutual unintelligibity for support, and I believe them.
>
>Upset me? Nah. I was actually expecting someone to jump out and tell me
>what the linguist said sooner or later. I am not a linguist, nor close
>to one. But I do have one qusetion though, and try to make it easier for
>a not-so-smart person like me to understand, but how is Cantonese a
>language? When you're talking about 'these are all different languages
>under the....", I would think you mean more of 'Chinese', rather then
>specifically Cantonese or Mandarin. But oh well, even when it's still
>not a settled issue, I think it's still not appropriate to call Cantonese
>a language yet.
>
>
>Peace.
>
>Sleepy
>
The linguistic definition is this;
where they are intelligible, they are dialects, where they are not,
they are languages;
but this is subject to the political division rule:
if they are one single country, they are still considered dialects,
if they belong to different countries, or different states in a
federation (like Ukraine in ex-USSR and Croatia in ex-Yugoslavia),
they are languages.
So Cantonese is a language if Guangdong were a separate country,
and Taiwanese would be a language if Taiwan becomes independent.
Wing
Aaron Wong
>
>>Because Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages. You just can't expect
>>people to know one and therefore the other. Mandarin is not (generally) taught
>>in school. When we have Chinese lessons, it's all in Cantonese.
>
>I hate to upset you (sounds familiar?) but this is still an unsettled
>issue whether Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages or not.
>Don't you think knowing how to write Chinese will definitely help you
>understand the different dialects of Chinese better?
No. Knowing how to write helped in understanding Mandarin only. That I can write
doesn't help me undestand Taiwanese at all.
On the other hand, Taiwanese who speak fluent Mandarin find
Cantonese just as hard to understand.
>But anyhow, since the Chinese lessons are taught in Cantonese, don't you think
>Cantonese IS Chinese? So does that leave a chance of Cantonese being a dialect
>of Chinese? Not a definite thing, but not totally out of the question either.
I never doubted that Cantonese is a Sinitic language. In school, we learned
Mandarin grammar and writing without learning Mandarin pronunciation. There's
a lot of differences between how you write and how you say something.
Ngok
David Stuart
Totally agree!!
I can't see why the PRC want to use 'pin-yin style' Chinese. i.e. use pin-yin
symbols to represent Chinese characters. Also, using simplified characters is
another stupid policy. Simplified characters cannot improved the cultural standard
of the citizens unless the government really put a great effort on educating the
citizens. I think the PRC use simplified and pin-yin Chinese is because it want to
prevent people from reading some materials or articles which is harmful to the PRC
(No matter these materials are from HK or Taiwan or ancient Chinese books.) so that
they can still have the power to rule the country.
Stanley Jeh-Chun Ma
Wing, maybe you should read my post that I followed up on Cyril's
posting. It's not only ROC that inculcates this habit, HKers, as
I have experienced in my dealings as friends, relative, and acquantances,
that they have a very strong tendency to refer to Cantonese as
Chinese and Mandarin as something separate. Actually, Mainlanders
to refer to Mandarin as Zhong Wen often (at least in my dealings with them).
Stan
Patrick Leung
>In a previous article, aw...@cs.cornell.edu (Aaron Wong) says:
>>Do you speak Swiss?
>Actually, I think there *is* a Swiss language, but I can't remember what
>it's called. Does it start with "R"?
>>Do you speak Canadian?
>Well, there are Canadian dictionaries around, as there are American and
>English dictionaries. Canadian editors are capable of making sure that
>writing is in either American or British English, or both. Spelling of
>words is a big part of this. Then there are the pronunciations of French
>words, which tend to sound French, depending on how much of an anglophone
>that one is. So do I speak Canadian? It depends on the person I'm
>speaking with, I suppose! :-)
Well Canadians pronounce a lot of words differently. The funniest thing
is a person use to Canada and hearing American pronounce 'roof'.
Canada would pronounce it rhyme with 'Ruth' but US person would say it
like a sound that I can only describe as a dog barking. :)
--
Patrick Leung ___) ///
University of British Columbia _-\\<_ '' umbo
Canada (Hollywood, Yugoslavia) (_)/ (_) ( - )
patl...@unixg.ubc.ca / patl...@axposf.pa.dec.com
Wing Ng
>directly through email (including posting and canceling it a few times :P)...
>
>
>In article <2i8jo0$7...@amhux3.amherst.edu> kl...@unix.amherst.edu (k. lee) writes:
>[...]
>>Of course, the complication is that there is no consensus on
>>how to define "dialect", but the most common one is that of mutual
>>intelligibility.
>[...]
>>On the other hand, Mandarin Chinese and a lot of local
>>"dialects" are really mutually unintelligible and are hence distinct
>>languages,
>[...]
>
>I am trying not to be picky, but you really confused me there. :(
>First you talked about mutual intelligibility as a way of distinguishing
>dialects, then you said the different dialects are distinct languages
>because they are not mutually intelligible? Care to explain a little more?
>people speaking Mandarin, then these two are two different dialects.
I believe you misunderstood k. lee. The criterion is, if mutually
intelligible, it's dialects, if not, it's two distinct languages.
>However, I don't see how that can equate to them being distinct languages
>becuase the written form of communication should also be taken into
>consideration. And by all means, chinese speak different dialects but
>write the same language. Am I being too critical, or am I being too
Written language is irelevant, Japanese, Korean, Vietnmaes all
used to write _entirely_ in Chinese written language.
No one says Koren, Japanese, Veitnames are dialects of Chinese.
Wing
>stupid to see the issue about whether they are dialects or languages?
>
Wing Ng
>On Thu, 27 Jan 1994 08:05:42 GMT, Zzzzzz.... (sle...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>>>Cantonese = official "language" of Hong Kong!
>
>>You know, if I am not mitaken, the official language of HK right now is
>>English, isn't it? Well, do tell me if I am wrong so I won't be wrong
>>anymore in the future.
>
>Half mistake. Both English and Chinese are offical language although
>English is the business language. But there are no mention of cantonese
>or mandarin.
I think we talked about this 6 months ago: the second official
language in HK is Chinese, and the current HK Govt. means it to
be Cantonese. in the proceedings of Legco, there is simultaneous
translation between English and Cantonese only, and no other
lanuguage/dialects.
Wing
MA JEH-CHUN
Donald Fisk <don...@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: Also, as many Chinese words have the same
>: pronounciation, yet drastically and totally unrelated meaning, writing
>: the language in Roman will just be a disaster. People who grew up with
>: the language have no problems with it.
>
>tones using accent marks. Pinyin does this. If you can understand
>spoken Cantonese or Putonghua, you will be able to understand Romanized
>Cantonese or Pinyin. You can understand song lyrics and you don't even
>have the tones to help you.
>
Distinguishing words from context would be difficult in instances where
not often used terms are used. Also, it is also possible that two different
words would fit the sentence. Romanization would serve to confuse.
In the realm of poems, where individual characters matter greatly to the
meaning of each poem, a subsitutue in character from the ambiguity of
romanization could distort or change the entire purpose of the poem.
Stan
Automatentheorie
: Because Mandarin and Cantonese are different languages. You just can't expect
: people to know one and therefore the other. Mandarin is not (generally) taught
: in school. When we have Chinese lessons, it's all in Cantonese.
Although the sounds in Mandarin and Cantonese are different, the written
words are the same. That's why people say Cantonese is a Chinese dialect.
Another example : many people in Europe speak "German". But they might
not understand each other, when spoken. Because in Switzerland, people
speak "Swiss-German", while people in Germany speaks German in a different
way. They all write the same "German" words but they speak in different
sounds. They speak different dialects of the same language ! They also
have "Hoch-Deutsch" (High-German), similar to Mandarin in Chinese.
--
Leung Wang Yip Tom
twyl...@cs.ust.hk
Donald Fisk
: This is not entirely true. Written Chinese is not taken from Mandarin
: Chinese, and the language is not "written" in Mandarin Chinese either.
: Throughout history, the written form has always differed from the
: spoken form in almost all dialects. Mandarin is simply a dialect which
: follows closely to the written standard.
Strictly speaking, yes. But people's spoken language is almost always
less formal than their written language.
: How would writing Chinese in alphabetic script be an improvement!!!!!?????
Many languages have changed script and/or spelling. Turkish and Malay
were previously written in Arabic script and are now written in Roman
script. I think that Vietnamese was written in Chinese script, and it is
now written in Roman script. English was once written in Runic script,
and Irish was once written in Ogham. Spelling reform is often done too:
examples include Dutch and Irish.
: In doing so, you will destroy the comprehensibility of numerous masterpieces
: in Chinese literature, as romanization of words will lose the meaning
: behind Chinese characters.
By the meaning behind Chinese characters, I assume you mean that the
composition of Chinese characters from radicals would be lost. But this
is no more important for understanding Chinese than knowledge of Latin and
Greek are for understanding English. You don't need to understand a
word's origin to be able to use it. As for great works of Chinese
literature, you can Romanize them too, but if they are old works the
pronunciation will have changed and use of Pinyin would be inappropriate
(loss of final stop consonants), particularly for poetry. But I am
in no way suggesting that the Chinese script be abandoned completely.
It could still be taught to those who want to learn it, just as Latin,
Greek and Anglo-Saxon are still taught in Britain.
: Also, as many Chinese words have the same
: pronounciation, yet drastically and totally unrelated meaning, writing
: the language in Roman will just be a disaster. People who grew up with
: the language have no problems with it.
You can distinguish words with a similar sound from context, and represent
tones using accent marks. Pinyin does this. If you can understand
spoken Cantonese or Putonghua, you will be able to understand Romanized
Cantonese or Pinyin. You can understand song lyrics and you don't even
have the tones to help you.
The only disadvantage of Romanizing is that you will no longer be able to
write to people in other parts of China without learning their language
first, but this is no big problem, as all the Chinese languages are
closely related and so should be easy for you to learn. Indeed you
could even use the time you save by not learning the ideograms to learn
Putonghua, which would be written in Pinyin. And if you were keen on
learning the Chinese script you still could, but you would have a choice not
to.
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in)
Email: don...@imst.bt.co.uk
HAKKIM WONG
>closely related and so should be easy for you to learn. Indeed you
>could even use the time you save by not learning the ideograms to learn
>Putonghua, which would be written in Pinyin. And if you were keen on
>learning the Chinese script you still could, but you would have a choice not
>to.
As long as all these Chinese dialects/languages are spoken by the
Chinese, we prefer to use the Chinese writting system.
Japanese uses over 2200 Chinese characters, 2 sets of different
alphabet (katakana and hirakana), and a character could have up to 4
different pronounciations....but they did not change it to use Latin
Alphabet....by the way, they are doing a lot better than you guys up
in the UK. Should English use Kanji along with the 2 kanas??
Donald Fisk
: In article <1994Jan31....@srd.bt.co.uk>,
: Donald Fisk <don...@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
: >
: >: Also, as many Chinese words have the same
: >: pronounciation, yet drastically and totally unrelated meaning, writing
: >: the language in Roman will just be a disaster. People who grew up with
: >: the language have no problems with it.
People who grew up with pounds, shillings and pence, and tons, hundredweight,
stones, pounds and ounces had no problems with them but that doesn't stop the
vast majority of us from seeing the advantages of the decimal and metric
systems. It's called progress.
: >You can distinguish words with a similar sound from context, and represent
: >tones using accent marks. Pinyin does this. If you can understand
: >spoken Cantonese or Putonghua, you will be able to understand Romanized
: >Cantonese or Pinyin. You can understand song lyrics and you don't even
: >have the tones to help you.
: >
: Distinguishing words from context would be difficult in instances where
: not often used terms are used. Also, it is also possible that two different
: words would fit the sentence. Romanization would serve to confuse.
How often do Chinese misunderstand each other when they talk?
: In the realm of poems, where individual characters matter greatly to the
: meaning of each poem, a subsitutue in character from the ambiguity of
: romanization could distort or change the entire purpose of the poem.
So that's it. In order to understand a few rarely used terms, and some
poetry, you have to learn thousands of characters, each averaging around
ten strokes, and you think this is a price well worth paying? Have you
ever tried to use a Chinese typewriter?
English has 26 characters each averaging two strokes. Pinyin or Romanized
Chinese will be even easier to pick up because there will be a better match
between spelling and pronunciation than is the case for English. Each
sound (phoneme) could be represented by one or two characters, and each
tone by an accent.
: Stan
Vincent Chan
Wing Ng <wi...@pegasus.com> wrote:
>
>notorious mr. Zhong at Stanford did it again. I think he
>started a flame war one year ago by officially changing Hong Kong
>to Xianggang.
I think Mr Zhong was shot down by SCHKers last year.
He dare to come back to SCHK ???
Long live Cantonese !!!
Long live Hong Kong !!!
Vincent Chan
>Mr. Zhong <z...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> Although learning both would be best, it is preferable to learn
>>putonghua (Mandarin) since it will become the sole language used in Xianggang
>>(Hong Kong) once it reverts back to Chinese control. Languages like Yueyu
>>(Cantonese) in China are slowly dying an inevitable death as educated and high
>>cultured people are starting to use putonghua more and more exclusively in
>>their daily lives. Yueyu is but a small vernacular/vulgate language that no
>>foreigner studies.
>>
>>putonghua and learn some yueyu as a secondary priority. But remember that in
>>15 years or so, Yueyu will be in disuse.
Mr Zhong, Lay Gong Yeh Ah ?
I think in 15 years, everyone in mainland China might be busy
learning HK-style Cantonese instead because they want to sing
HK-style Cantonese Karaoke and watch HK TV programs which
are in HK-style Cantonese.
Long live HK-style Cantonese !!!
HAKKIM WONG
>How often do Chinese misunderstand each other when they talk?
It never happened to me.
>So that's it. In order to understand a few rarely used terms, and some
>poetry, you have to learn thousands of characters, each averaging around
>ten strokes, and you think this is a price well worth paying? Have you
>ever tried to use a Chinese typewriter?
Yes.
I type faster than my friend Bill typing English.
>English has 26 characters each averaging two strokes. Pinyin or Romanized
>Chinese will be even easier to pick up because there will be a better match
>between spelling and pronunciation than is the case for English. Each
>sound (phoneme) could be represented by one or two characters, and each
>tone by an accent.
The thing is it takes more than 1 letters for a word, which end up
taking more strokes than Chinese characters.
Take the word beautiful as an example. In English it has 13 strokes.
In Cantonese it only has 12 strokes. tell me which is more
reasonable.
Also, if we used only Pinyin, or Romanized Chinese, problems come up
: What is "Yu Fong" ?? Is it "Precaution", or is it
"Breast"?
I still think you speak too little Chinese to really understand what
is going on.
HAKKIM WONG
>What we really need is a real standard to input character.
Exactly!!!
My suggestion is choose Standard-Mandarin as the base language, and
build up a database of words, not characters.
But the problem is still lay (or is it lie???) in the different input
methods.
Aaron Wong
>In article <1994Feb1.1...@srd.bt.co.uk> don...@srd.bt.co.uk (Donald Fisk) writes:
>
>>English has 26 characters each averaging two strokes. Pinyin or Romanized
>>Chinese will be even easier to pick up because there will be a better match
>>between spelling and pronunciation than is the case for English.
>
> In Cantonese it only has 12 strokes. tell me which is more
> reasonable.
No, "beautiful" is written in 3 strokes only with cursive writing. One to write
the 9 alphabets, one to dot the i, and one the cross the t. ;)
> Also, if we used only Pinyin, or Romanized Chinese, problems come up
> : What is "Yu Fong" ?? Is it "Precaution", or is it
> "Breast"?
Have you ever fail to tell them apart when someone speaks? B'sides, you should
enter the accent marks as well. Things are usually obvious by context.
Ngok
Aaron Wong
>
> I think whichever way Chinese should be written should be decided by
>Chinese people, and as far as I see, most people are satisfied with the
>current way of writing. For someone brought up speaking Chinese and using
>Chinese in his daily life, the situation is not as bad as a foreigner thinks.
As far as I can see, people avoid writing in Chinese as much as possible.
No one complains about it 'cause no one cares enough to. But if friends and
family always write to each other in English when they never speak to each
other that way, I think they are really not that satisfied with the situation.
It's just annoying that I can never remember the characters I need. Either I
look up a phonetic dictionary, or I subsistute an English word. Guess which is
easier?
Ngok
Yuk Lun Chan
>As far as I can see, people avoid writing in Chinese as much as possible.
>No one complains about it 'cause no one cares enough to. But if friends and
>family always write to each other in English when they never speak to each
>other that way, I think they are really not that satisfied with the situation.
>It's just annoying that I can never remember the characters I need. Either I
>look up a phonetic dictionary, or I subsistute an English word. Guess which is
>easier?
Its because you have manage to write to your friend or family with another
language and you are too lazy to write Chinese. If you always forget how
to write a character, that means you are not using Chinese enough. Or maybe
your english is better than your chinese. I don't write chinese usually,
I type. When I "writing" about technical to my sister, I use english
because I don't know some terms in chinese. But I "write" chinese to my
mum because she can't read english.
Yuk Lun Chan
> Japanese uses over 2200 Chinese characters, 2 sets of different
> alphabet (katakana and hirakana), and a character could have up to 4
> different pronounciations....but they did not change it to use Latin
> Alphabet....by the way, they are doing a lot better than you guys up
> in the UK. Should English use Kanji along with the 2 kanas??
Somebody might think that Latinise Chinese for computer and say that kana
is eariler.
I have both Japanese and Chinese in my system (why and how? sorry,
company cofidential). If you think chinese input is bad enough, Japanese
isn't too much better. To input acceptable Japanese (i.e. some chinese
character in context), you need to type in kana, hit space, then choose
the chinese char. and mix. Because some terms must be in chinese character
(e.g. the name japan itself). Also, translated term must be in different
kana.
What we really need is a real standard to input character.
--
Anthony Wong (or LM)
I think whichever way Chinese should be written should be decided by
Chinese people, and as far as I see, most people are satisfied with the
current way of writing. For someone brought up speaking Chinese and using
Chinese in his daily life, the situation is not as bad as a foreigner thinks.
Anthony Wong
- aw...@hal.com
MA JEH-CHUN
Donald Fisk <don...@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>
>So that's it. In order to understand a few rarely used terms, and some
>poetry, you have to learn thousands of characters, each averaging around
>ten strokes, and you think this is a price well worth paying? Have you
>ever tried to use a Chinese typewriter?
>
as fast as English. In fact, as each Chinese character only needs 2-5
keystrokes per character, I probably type faster in Chinese.
Stan