what is modern and post modern hmong?

[LoneWriter]

hi fellas,

i am trying to understand what era is the modern hmong and what era is
the post-modern hmong?

and so is the hmong timeline similar to the standard modern/postmodern
time of society or should we go by our own standard that the postmodern
hmong era begins for example in 1961? if not then when?

thank you

[gyl]

LoneWriter,

This is a very interesting topic

But to answer your question about a possible date, we need to define
what is modern, and what is postmodern in the general sense of the two
terms since they convey different ideas to different people.

After you have done that, I will try to put my two cents worth into the
discussion.

GYL

[LoneWriter]

Well, thank you. i am meant to say thank you for your fantastic
interview. it was the most intelligent interview i'd had and we didn't
even get into the social memory, which i want to know more about and
include in the story for the hmong times beginning of march in time for
your lecture. if you could please send me a summary, a taste of social
memory, it would greatly entice an audience for your lecture.

anyhow modern i think defined by white historical figures as a period
of change or progress in the art, politics, literture, blah, blah from
1890 to perhaps the 1920s, and postmodern started or emerged around the
1930s. granted there are agruments on when modernism end and
postmodernism start.

the question is should hmong go by white historical definition of
modernism and post modernism, or should we define our own? and if we
do, would it modernism start in the 1960-1980s, while postmodernism
start 1980s to the present?

to say that hmong should agreed to the whites definations of modernism
and postmodernism would be false because we didn't even know art as art
or literture left alone a written language til the 50s. i mean we are a
few years behind in many areas. my thought have been that we define our
own base on the model/requirements of the whites. i think as a people
when we should be able to define our own meanings within context of the
whole, yet measure our own progress base on our contributions to
society, and not the other way around.

thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[yaj...@aol.com]

Interesting subject. I'd love to come back and read what others have to
say about this. Maybe we can say modern hmong started in Loojceeb? And
post modern hmong started when Ban Vibnais was closed?
YY

[StickRice]

I believe that it is hopeless for you, LoneWriter, to fully
appreciate--or even to understand--the premise of your question. It
seems you have already pigeon-holed your thinking with your assumptions
(conclusions) about Hmong.

E.g., "...we didn't even know art as art or literture left alone a

written language til the 50s. i mean we are a few years behind in many

areas..."

Are you looking at it from inside or from outside-in?

[LoneWriter]

rice,

thank you for trying.

lw

[30Xyoo]

LoneWriter,

Your question cannot be apply to Hmong all over the world. Take us
Hmong in the US, for example, our current generation is trapped in
space. Our physical body is here, but our spirit/mind still soar high
in time. The airplane shipped our body here, but our spirit is still
trapped in Asia trying to find its way here to America or other abroad
destination. Thus we are still in pre-Modern Era. Just look at some of
our habits and thinking. We are still too far behind to even
contemplate or envisioning the modern era. In my mind we are still
sometime in the Medieval Period (500 - 1450 AD) leading to the
Rennaissance Stages (150 - 1600). Sorry to disappoint alot of you, but
that's just how I see it and feel toward the progress made in our
culture and mind set.

Thanks for the post and will await the response from Dr. Gary Yia Lee.

[LoneWriter]

30xyoo,

LOL "In my mind we are still sometime in the Medieval Period (500 -

1450 AD) leading to the
Rennaissance Stages (150 - 1600)."

i also await Dr. Gary Yia Lee's answer.

[StickRice]

It is that very kind of arrogance and self-hate that you and 30xyoo
have difficulty appreciating the strengths of being Hmong.

-Frank Lis

[LoneWriter]

rice,

please within the context and comparison of "accepted theory" on
modernism and post-modernism versus a hmong-timed modernism and
post-modernism if there was such a theory, articulate the hatre you
accused us of. and go a little further if you will prove how we are
self-hating and arrogance bout our shorting coming as a people.

now elaborate your thoughts on the strengths of the hmong people and
how that play into the context of modernism and post-modernism. when
and what strenght was developed, obtained, and or achieved in a fashion
that could reflect a modernism and post-modernism hmong timeline? what
technology did the hmong develop? what art or literture?

see big brother frank i understand where you are coming from, but you
made no attempt to coverse within the perimeter of historical hmong
modernism and post-modernism.

frank i like you personally, i read some of your stuff and i like you,
i think i like how you process your thoughts into words and then text
and so on, but i think a man who is able to critique should be to
provide a sound solution or argument, otherwise it means he doesn't
know jack. we live in an age of ignorance as much as arrogance,
somewhere in the middle most hmong people find themselves clueless of
the meaning of their existence.

thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

[30Xyoo]

LoneWriter and StickRice,

I don't and I won't speak on behalf of brother LoneWriter, but I truly
believe that I am not self loathing or hating my Hmong image. I was
justing stating the truth and I know the truth hurts.

Let me share more....my reasoning are what has been going on ever since
the crazy American (Vietnam) War. Most of the Hmong are here
physically, but really not our minds nor spirits. Now the new
American-Hmong are born and they cannot really find a place to dwell.
The Hmong refugee are lost wondering somewhere in space and time and
the American-Hmong are left wondering in search of its identity. The
Hmong refugee wants to go back to Laos, but the old Laos that they once
knew is no longer there.

One of the reasons why other people on earth was and still able to
transform themselves from one era to the next because all of them are
travelling together body and soul; children and parents. The Hmong are
too torn apart to even move from one physical place to another left
alone from one era to another. It is not an excuse. It is a fact; much
like the Black American. Their claim and I believe them whole
heartedly, was that they are the only American that came with a family;
they all were brought separately onto the Americans. Thus the reactive
force now is what we currently seeing and experiencing with them. Hmong
may and may not be able to bring in the same effect or magnitude, but
we are without a soul for we were taken onto thin air through the
airplane....

Too much metaphos, I know, but they are all true...trust me and just
wait and see the effect this soulessness will have on us Hmong in the
next generation.....

If you know me personally, you would probably think that how could such
a Hmong loving individual be writing jargons and bull shiting around
like this. But you don't so I will let your cousin LoneWriter discuss
with you more....

[LoneWriter]

30xyoo,

i didn't mean to speak for you either, though i already know you didn't
or try to degrade your people. you have a great mind and sincere, i
read your post i think it's true, i think Dr. Gary Yia Lee also
lectured about this sudden departure you speak of, "thin air", it's
like you really love this girl, suddenly you have to move in the dead
of the night, and its tough to live on without real closure. I think
hmong people need some sort of closure. the white americans left the
vietnam war because they lost terribly, but you're right apart of the
hmong soul is missing.

we may not know each other, but as men, we respect each other for their
character, thoughts, and their mind, and their ability to make their
thoughts and mind work with other men for the good of humanity.

take care.

[StickRice]

Before we proceed here are my assumptions:

1) This is a public and opened conversation and not a private one
between you, Dr. Gary, and 30Xyoo. (Because, otherwise, it would be
happening via private email and not as thread on an public newsgroup.)

2) This being a public and opened conversation, anyone can contribute.

3) As obnoxious as I come across, you read my postings--and I
appreciate it.

I am interested (curious) about the topic you raised. But I am also a
bit old; and you know us old folks: cantankerous, curt, sometimes
offensive.

For some of us, even though a topic like the one you raised pique our
interests, confessions of ignorance like "...we didn't even know art as
art or literture left alone a written language..." detract from the
kind of discussion you're trying to engage here.

I'm almost certain that Dr. Gary privately winced when he read the same
sentence, but, in his grace and experience working with and molding
young minds, he overlooked your faux pas. Unlike him, though, I am
unschooled and too obnoxious to let it pass without comment.

Additionally, this is fodder for another discussion (a philosophical
one), but, younger brother 30Xyoo who said "I was justing stating the
truth and I know the truth hurts", thus far you've stated personal,
selective observations and conclusions, not truth nor even fact. Truth
is relative...and it appears to be a distant cousin to you! LOL.

Nevertheless, this is an intriguing topic for discussion and now that
we've gotten over that little bump (detraction) I look forward to
"hearing" from you further.

Thanks, guys.

Frank Lis

[30Xyoo]

LoneWriter,

If you are who you are then you don't have to say no more. We travel on
the same path, most of the time.

Correction I would like to make on the Black American, I meant to say
that they are the only American that came to this great country without
a family intact. I miss the word "don't have" when posting my last
piece.

Thanks for your response....

[Lajntxiag]

Let's entertain some simplistic arguments:

Let's assume -- at and for the moment --that 'being modern' means
nothing more than a person's ability to perceive and articulate to some
comprehensible degree a circumscribed, fragmented definition of
modernity along with its putative origins, potential trajectories, and
speculative ends or moralized ultimates.

Given this definition of being modern, where do "Hmong" or "the Hmong"
fit into the imaginary timeline?

And, for starters (and of course, you and I, we all, because we
subscribe to and live by our own presently conforming notions of Time,
are always starting [or ending] somewhere at some moment, which makes
us starters [enders]-by-default), let's begin by asking the question:
Who are we talking about when we say "Hmong"? To talk about
"pre-modern Hmong," modern Hmong, post-modern Hmong is--first, to
conform to saturated categories and dichotomies--to PRESUPPOSE the
existence of a group or groups whose existence occurs as soon as
language (and, yes, alphabets on the keyboard) allows us to construct
and (mis)re-present "them" as "Hmong" or otherwise.

--Lajntxiag

[30Xyoo]

Frank,

Lauj hluas. Public or private. That by no means necessitated the any
forms of attacks, right? Anyhow, thanks for your openess. Look forward
to chit chatting with you more in the future.

[StickRice]

Huh?!!

LOL...why didn't you just say

"I propose that 'being modern' is simply a state of mind; whatever, a
person decides for himself so long as he can describe it in a
consistent manner."

And then wrap it up with:

"Let's first define 'Hmong.'"

-Frank

[Lajntxiag]

Why the long-cut? BECAUSE, it (written language) is more entertaining
that way. And, as your summary precisely shows, paraphrasing remains
just that: incomplete and crude.

If you read my post again carefully, it (being modern)--according to
the 'definition' provided--is NOT reducible to just a "state of mind."
Secondly, the question posed was not "what is the definition of Hmong?"
or how do we define Hmong? etc., but rather a significantly different
question.

--Lajntxiag

[StickRice]

To keep this topic of discussion from drifting too far from people's
minds here are some thoughts I had.

I agree with GYL that we must first define modernism and postmodernism.

Additionally, since we are talking about us Hmong, we also should
define "traditionalism". We might even touch on "romanticism"--or how
a Hmong version might look--or what ever label we may ascribe to the
period of transition from a Hmong traditionalism to Hmong modernism.

I will begin with what I believe to be the most basic definition.
Let's discuss it further detailing the elements of each -ism.

In the broadest terms, traditionalism, romanticism, modernism, and
postmodernism are ways of thinking. Philosophies of sorts.

What we see in artistic expression (art, music, etc.) and intellectual
thought are manifestations of these ways of thinking. For example:
Romantic thought gave rise to impressionism, Modern thought to Jazz,
Postmodernism to deconstructivism.

For the Hmong, then, what elements or manifestions comprise the
Traditional, Romantic (if there is one), Modern, and Postmodern eras?

-Frank