How is Lauj Kiab Toom importance to the Hmong people?

[Hmoobleejtub]

1. He was a good man.
2. He was a Hmong hero.
3. He cared about Hmong people.

..............................................add
more---------------------------------

[pebhmo...@yahoo.com]

On Aug 5, 1:03 am, Hmoobleejtub <hmoobleejtubzoonr...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Nyob rau kuv tus kheej mas kuv ho xav li no.

1. Koj nqe lus ib Is he qa good man mas tej zaum nws kuj yuav yog ib
tus neeg zoo tiamsis nws nyob rau wrong side lawm xwb.
2. Ntawd nqe ob He was a Hmong hero mas kuv xav tias tej zaum kuj
yuav yog rau communist tiamsis tsi yog rau peb cov nyob tog freedom.
Qhov kuv hais li mas yog tsi muaj yawg coj Hmoob nrog nplog ua txij
tog txij peg mas cov niag nplog tsw quav ntawm yeej tso nplua tsov rog
ntawd tseg ntxov lawm. Yog lawv tso tsov rog tseg cais peb twb tsi
poob tebchaws li no.
3. Koj nqe lus peb He cared about Hmong people no mas kuv xav tias
nws cared about nws lub meej mom heev dua li cared about Hmong. Nws
twb tsi muaj ib qhov zoo uas yuav khi tau nplog kom thaum tau tebchaws
cais nplog thiab Hmoob nyob sib txig sib luag li. Nws chim rau Lis
Foom tsev neeg cais nws cia li ua ciaj ua tuag tuaj tos koom tshaj ua
kom Lis Foom lawv tsev neeg poob kom nws siab nqis xwb. It is not
about Hmong at all, only about his and Lee Fong families, he just used
the Hmong to cure his angry emotion.

Nws yog ib tus thau haiv thiab ua rau Hmong puam tsuaj loj ib yam lis
thgaum nyob Suavteb ntag. Thaum Hmoob nyob Suavteb thiab tawg khiav
los rau tuam tshoj teb mas ua rau Hmoob ploj tuag coob kawg thiab los
nyob thoob plawg rau yav qab teb no. Zaum Lauj Kiab Toom lawv ua los
ib yam, Hmoob khiav mus puv ntuj thiab tuag pob txha dawb vog tim roob
phaj tsum. Tsi tas li mas Hmoob poob dej ntaj tsuag tsi nrog Naj
Khoom nqeg hav xwb. The leader of both side at that time should not
be born will be better for the Hmong. Npam kaas cees cees.

[kwv...@aol.com]

i have learned in history that the term "kiab toom" is a vietnamese
term. in vietnamese, it is written differently, but it sounds
similar. in china, we hmong claimed to have many kings, but in fact,
those were not kings. ever though hmong considered them kings, they
were in fact just "chiefs" similar to the american indian chiefs who
are leaders of a tribe. king chi yu, for example who was claimed by
many hmong as a king was simply a chief. however, he might had been
selected to be the top chief or the leader of all hmong tribal chiefs
for the purpose of organizing men for war against the chinese. that
was why he was considered king at the time because all hmong regarded
him as the only top leader they had just like vang pao today. now
back to "kiab toom." when the hmong migrated to vietnam, they then
used a vietnamese word "kiab toom" for the title. in vietnamese "kiab
toom" simply means leader of a village, tribe, or clan. when hmong
migrated to laos, they still carried this title over from vietnam.
however, the hmong might have considered this title kiab toom in a
little broader because of missinterpretation.

[ych...@yahoo.com]

Cov Npawg Lauj Kiabtoos yog thawj tus HMOOB ua nrog Fabkis tuas
Nyablaj hov. Nws tus Kiabtoos yog Fabkis muab. Tab sis yeeb xyoo 1958
Lauj foom poob phubthaen ces lawv thiaj khiav lawm xwb.

[kwv...@aol.com]

>On Aug 5, 9:51 am, ycha Cov Npawg Lauj Kiabtoos yog thawj tus HMOOB ua nrog Fabkis tuas

> Nyablaj hov. Nws tus Kiabtoos yog Fabkis muab. Tab sis yeeb xyoo 1958

> Lauj foom poob phubthaen ces lawv thiaj khiav lawm xwb.- Hide quoted text -

tiag tiag thawj thawj tug kiab toom yog tooj ntxawg muas appointed by
the french in 1896. thaum ntawd npliaj yob lauj tseem yog tooj ntxawg
muas tus assistant xwb. xyoo 1917 tooj ntxawg retired lawm. twb txog
rau xyoo 1921 npliaj yob lauj mam officially appointed by the french
ua kiab toom. tos li fabkis ho muab kiab toom rau npliaj yob lauj los
vim npliaj yob tau pab fab kis tua tau paj cai. lub sij hawm npliaj
yob ua kiab toom ces lis foom yog nws tus secretary sau se rau fab
kis thiab ho yuav npliag yob tus ntxhais ua nws poj niam thiab. tab
sis tsis ntev ces foom lis ho mus yuav dua niam yau lawm ces foom tus
niam loj thiaj tau noj tshuaj tuag lawm ces cov hmoob lauj thiab hmoob
lis lawv cov plaub sib ntxub thiaj pib qhov no tuaj ntag. xyoo 1935
npliaj yob tuag tag ces thiaj muab kiab toom rau npliaj yob tus tub
hlob, soob ntxawm. tab sis vim soob ntxawm ua tsis tau hauj lwm rau
fab kis ces xyoo 1938 fab kis thiaj muab kia toom rau foom lis. xyoo
1939 foom lis tuag lawm. npliaj yob tus tub faiv ntaj lauj thiab foom
lis tus tub tub npis lis nkawv thiaj los sib kheej ua kia toom. tab
sis thaum kawg fab kis muab kiab toom rau tub npis lis lawm ces thiaj
ua rau faiv ntaj lawv chim heev. qhov no ces yog qhov ua rau faiv
ntaj thiab tub npis lis lawv sib ntxub heev heev. faiv ntaj lawv
thiaj khiav mus ua nyab laj lawm. qhov teeb meem ces yog li no xwb.

[zhen]

pajnplaim,

if you are reading, could you please add some input and comments?

> i have learned in history that the term "kiab toom" is a vietnamese
> term. in vietnamese, it is written differently, but it sounds

do you believe what this guy said here about the term kiab toom?

> similar. in china, we hmong claimed to have many kings, but in fact,
> those were not kings. ever though hmong considered them kings, they
> were in fact just "chiefs" similar to the american indian chiefs who

how about this statement above too? remember, koj hais tias vwj paj
yias yog 'huab tais' no lov?

> him as the only top leader they had just like vang pao today. now
> back to "kiab toom." when the hmong migrated to vietnam, they then
> used a vietnamese word "kiab toom" for the title. in vietnamese "kiab
> toom" simply means leader of a village, tribe, or clan. when hmong

pajnplaim, the hmong who crossed over from thailand to laos also had
'kiab toom' too. this title was carried over from tuam tshoj, not as
purported here. any ideas? as far as i know, very few hmong crossed
from tuam tshoj to laos directly, it was tuam tshoj to thailand or
vietnam, and then laos.

thanks.

[zhen]

> tiag tiag thawj thawj tug kiab toom yog tooj ntxawg muas appointed by
> the french in 1896. thaum ntawd npliaj yob lauj tseem yog tooj ntxawg

in JHM's book, before the french were confronted with the hmong, there
were already 3 hmong kiab toom. the french did not appoint the kiab
toom position, in fact, they eliminated it by introducing another
governing structure to assimilate the hmong into french colonialism
for taxation. a lot of people know, before contact with the french, in
northeast laos, there were the 3 kiabtoom, ly, moua, and lor. less
people know, that in northwest laos, there were other kiab toom too.

[Tshoj...@yahoo.com]

Dear friend,

You do not know the story then do not invent. Go back to do more
research on Bliao Yao biography
before posting your stupid story about him.

txy

[zhen]

tshojxyu

> You do not know the story then do not invent. Go back to do more
> research on Bliao Yao biography
> before posting your stupid story about him.

kav liam los mas mog. cia lawv hais lawv thiab nab. saib seb nej puas
xav kom peb tsuag ntshav pim ntshav qau xwb? tham txog tej yam zoo li
no lom zem thiab pab qhib tau peb cov paj hlwb dua. good good xwb os
mog. cia nyias hais nyiaj zaj seb tus twg yog tus dag tus paub tus xav
kawm tus xav qhia nawb.

> > muas tus assistant xwb. xyoo 1917 tooj ntxawg retired lawm. twb txog
> > rau xyoo 1921 npliaj yob lauj mam officially appointed by the french
> > ua kiab toom. tos li fabkis ho muab kiab toom rau npliaj yob lauj los

this statement above is preposterous, because lauj nplaij yob txiv,
aka, lor pasy, twb yog kiab toom thiab. kiab toom tsis yog fab kis
tsa, tiam si, txiv cev rau tub ua.

[zhen]

i'd like to ask dr pao to comment as much as he knows. muaj ib zaug
nws pab qhia txog xaiv kaub thoj + kiab toom. it seems like they had a
'good' relationship or were on good terms, at least. hais txog lauj
kiab toom xwb ces, koj cov 1, 2, 3 no yog no, no, no tag nrho raws li
keeb kwm thiab hmoob tau hais tseg.

On Aug 5, 2:03 am, Hmoobleejtub <hmoobleejtubzoonr...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[kwv...@aol.com]

after qian jia rebellion in 1795 thousand of hmong fled to dong van in
vietnam. in 1805-06 paj txhim, blia yob's father organized a team led
by khwb vwj to laos to look for a new place to settle. they landed
and settled in nong het, laos. pas txim was in fact an unofficial and
only a clan kia toom back in vietnam and still retained his title when
arrived in laos. later in laos paj txim was murdered. because his
oldest son, npliaj yob was still only boy, his title was passed to his
uncle, txhiaj xwm lauj.

of course, before 1896 when the first official kia toom, tooj ntxawg
muas appionted was by the french, there were many countless kia toom
vang, yang, lee, lor etc.., but these are just clan kiab toom. tooj
ntxawg, npliaj yob and thereafter were the ones who appointed by the
french to governed the hmong and collected tax from the hmong for the
french. at that time the title was considered broarder, but later was
replaced by toj xeem system.

don't you young elite get me wrong. i only tell what i know. if you
think you know more and better, please do share.

[zhen]

> after qian jia rebellion in 1795 thousand of hmong fled to dong van in
> vietnam. in 1805-06 paj txhim, blia yob's father organized a team led
> by khwb vwj to laos to look for a new place to settle. they landed
> and settled in nong het, laos. pas txim was in fact an unofficial and
> only a clan kia toom back in vietnam and still retained his title when
> arrived in laos. later in laos paj txim was murdered. because his
> oldest son, npliaj yob was still only boy, his title was passed to his
> uncle, txhiaj xwm lauj.

thanks. a

re you sure the etymology of kiab toom is nyab laj? remember, nyab laj
was colonized culturally and systematically by china. it was not until
very recently in history that nyab laj had their own writing system;
they had been wearing the clothing of chinese, writing the characters
of chinese, paying tribute to the emperor of china, etc....

yog tias kiab toom yog lus nyab laj, was does kiab equal and what does
toom equal?

> of course, before 1896 when the first official kia toom, tooj ntxawg
> muas appionted was by the french, there were many countless kia toom

are you sure? thought the french appointed tuam xeev (aka toj xeem)
not a kiab toom.

> vang, yang, lee, lor etc.., but these are just clan kiab toom. tooj

how many types of kiab toom are there? you seem to imply there's clan
kiab toom and then a 'official' kiab toom. kiab toom position was
hereditary, so, obviously, they are all clan-centric.

> ntxawg, npliaj yob and thereafter were the ones who appointed by the
> french to governed the hmong and collected tax from the hmong for the
> french. at that time the title was considered broarder, but later was
> replaced by toj xeem system.

what happened to muas kiab toom? why and how did lauj kiab toom take
over?

> don't you young elite get me wrong. i only tell what i know. if you
> think you know more and better, please do share.

kav tsij hais tiag, zoo mloog heev.

[kwv...@aol.com]

zhen-- remember the french were in occupation both vietnam and laos at
that time, so the title kia tong is acceptable by the french in both
countries. in vietnam beside kia tong, there were also many lesser
title (chief titles) such as photong, chongkone, chongcha & xaophay.
some of these titles were also carried over to laos. fyi. toj xeem
is a laotian system, not french's.

[zhen]

On Aug 5, 3:03 pm, kwv...@aol.com wrote:
> after qian jia rebellion in 1795 thousand of hmong fled to dong van in
> vietnam. in 1805-06 paj txhim, blia yob's father organized a team led
> by khwb vwj to laos to look for a new place to settle. they landed
> and settled in nong het, laos. pas txim was in fact an unofficial and

so, paj txhim twb yug ua ntej xyoo 1805 lawm lov? in 1896 or so, paj
txhim lawv khwv tswv 8 tua tus nplog sau se siab heev rau fab kis.
ntau tus yeej hais tias yog paj txhim lub niam tswv yim. according to
what you are saying, that means paj txhim lived to be over/about 100+
years? 1896 - 1805 = 81 years. but if in 1805 nws twb tiav txiv + xaj
kom khwb vwj mus nrhiav av nrhiav chaws nyob lawm, he must have been
at least 18-21 in 1805. so, add 18 + 81 = 99 years old in 1896. koj
cov lus no koj tau muab kho nawb, vim tsis txaus ntseeg.

[zhen]

xyov naj, kuv hnov hnov ib co laus tham mas lawv hais tias tus "tuam
xeev" no hmoob twb ev los tim tuam tshoj los lawm. same thing with
kiab toom. a few publications exist that discuss kiab toom in china.
it is believable that between china, laos, vietnam, and thailand,
these terms may have been corrupted or exchanged to a great extent of
confusion. yog koj mus hais "tuam xeev" no co miao + suav tseem paub
koj hais txog dab tsi, ho koj hais "toj xeem" no mas lawv ntsia ntsia
koj xwb.

[kwv...@aol.com]

zhen-- i am not sure about the year paj txim was murdered and how old
he was, but it said he was murdered by zoov tswb xyooj. for that lao
guy, i have no clue either.

[ເຄຣຊີ້ແລຣີ້]

So, just curious. Who murdered him?

Your friend,
ແລຣີ້

[zhen]

On Aug 5, 4:10 pm, kwv...@aol.com wrote:

tsis yog pob? tus tua paj txhim yog nws tus bodyguard hu ua zoov tsawb
yaj no sav? qhov no mas yog nej tus SCH nrov nrov dr mnm lee diam
dissertation hais kiag ov.

[DownUnder]

I have upload my first draft of monograph on "Hmong Issue Series:
"Early Hmong Political History in Xieng Khouang" whicj include a short
sectionon the Kiatong system.
See... if any one can add anything to it... Please send me the
feedback.

Enjoy it...

http://www.lexicon.net/~lis01085/book/HmongEarlyHistroy%20in%20Laos.doc

Pao