Where was "Kiab Toom?"
Hyenakllr
The statement below is based on a hear said, no written evidence or fact. I
am interesting to learn and understand about the word of "Kiab Toom". Was
it a Lao word? French word? Vietnamese word or Hmong word?
Here is the story I learned from a Hmong elder. Years ago, a town in Nong
Hek, Xieng Khouang, consisted of four major Hmong clans, Moua, Lo, Lee and
Thao. The clans united as a group and verbally agreed to defense foreigner
invasion of their homelands. They did every things they could for the title
of Kiab Toom. According to the agreement, Moua was to be the first Hmong
Kiab Toom, then Lo, Lee and Thao.
Mr. Ntxoov Kaim Moua, was the first Hmong Kiab Toom, known as Muas Kiab
Toom. When Ntxoov Kaim died, Paj Txhim Lauj become the second Hmong Kiab
Toom, known as Lauj Kiab Toom. It was working well as planned. When Paj
Txhim died, his older son, Npliaj Yob become the Hmong Kiab Toom, which was
known as Kiab Toom Lauj Npliaj Yob. The projected plan did not go well. By
unknown reason, when Npliaj Yob died, his older son, Txooj Tub become (Toj
Xeem/Taseng). Where was the title of Kiab Toom? Who took it?
Txooj Tub collected taxes from the Hmong and sent them to the French. On
his way, Txooj Tub gambled and lost all the taxes money. He then asked Tou
Bee Lyfoung, which was the older son of Txooj Tub's sister to pay the taxes
and become Taseng.
Based on the otherside of the story, told by the Lo, was that Txooj Tub only
asked Tou Bee to pay the taxes by given Txooj Tub's official seal as a
condition and Txooj Tub will be back within three days to pay Tou Bee
whatever Txooj Tub owed. It was not even three days, Tou Bee had announced
himself as the new Taseng.
During Tou Bee's time, Chao Lee was also become Taseng. When the two Lees
become taseng under Mouang Kham, the projected plan was even went farther.
Txhiaj Suav Thoj moved to Xeev and become Taseng, under Mouang Khoun.
I asked the man to compare the title of "Kiab Toom" to the title of Nai
Kong, which was the highest ranked. The man said, Kiab Toom was under Chao
Mouang. Kiab Toom overseen a few taseng. I guess that Kiab Toom probably
equal to Nai Danh. I could be wrong. I did not familiar with Pha Sa Lasa.
This is not proven right or wrong, anyone who wished to make comments or
suggestions are welcome. Positive equal light, negative equal darkness.
Positive equal plus, negative equal minus.
Best regards,
Hyenakllr.
feli...@my-deja.com
family linages. Now, based the practice, I assume that the word
"Kiab Toom" came from the Lao language. Look at "Toj Xeem". That's
Lao. Look at "Nai Npab". That too is Lao. And look at "Phas Nyas".
Isn't that Lao, too? Yes, it is. And what about "Naiphoo"? Our
equivalent for this Lao word has been "Yawg Hlob VajPov", ain't it?
Looking at how we have altered the pronunciation of the other titles, I
don't know "Kiab Toom" is pronounced in Lao the way we do it in Hmong
though. It might have a different pronunciation.
I also refute that it's Chinese or any other language. The title grow
out of leadership in Laos. It would not have any significance if it
wasn't a Lao word or Lao title.
That's my assume. Get those older Hmong students who have studied
Laotian and lived in the country longer to really verify this. I
thought I would just give you my thoughts on it.
Felix
In article <t3vI4.13948$ei.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
main...@my-deja.com
"Hyenakllr" <hyen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> I asked the man to compare the title of "Kiab Toom" to the title of
Nai
> Kong, which was the highest ranked. The man said, Kiab Toom was under
Chao
> Mouang. Kiab Toom overseen a few taseng. I guess that Kiab Toom
probably
> equal to Nai Danh.
Hyena Killer, I myself have recently also been very curious as to where
the word "Kiab Toom" [Kaitong] came from. Quincy, in his newest book
which some here have alluded to, theorizes that the word is derived from
a (Mandarin) Chinese word, "tu kwan", a title that the Ming assigned to
ethnic ("Barbarian") officials on the southern frontiers. "Tu Kwan" does
not sound anything like "kaitong", but perhaps the word "kaitong" is a
southern (Cantonese, Fukienese, Yunnanese, etc) pronunciation of that
mandarin word. What's interesting is that the word "kaitong" was not
reserved for Hmong leaders alone. Vietnamese and some Thai leaders of
the Sip Song Chuthai states also held the honorary title "kaitong".
According to several experts that I've asked, the word is neither
Vietnamese nor Thai, so it must be Chinese. Some believe that "kaitong"
is the equivalent of the modern day "tasseng", however, a kaitong does
not have the administrative authorities of a tasseng. "Kaitong" was
merely an honorary title, and a kaitong's main duty was collecting
taxes. In all other legal or administrative issues, the kaitong has to
consult the Chao Muang and/or Chao Khoueng.
Mai Na
kamma...@my-deja.com
--Kammamhlub.
In article <8d0opn$781$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Marxfree
controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several Naibanc. But,
Kaitong does not control as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.
<main...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d0opn$781$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Hyenakllr
Best regards,
<feli...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d0ju0$21q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The Hmong really didn't have political titles for our leaders except
> family linages. Now, based the practice, I assume that the word
> "Kiab Toom" came from the Lao language. Look at "Toj Xeem". That's
> Lao. Look at "Nai Npab". That too is Lao. And look at "Phas Nyas".
> Isn't that Lao, too? Yes, it is. And what about "Naiphoo"? Our
> equivalent for this Lao word has been "Yawg Hlob VajPov", ain't it?
> Looking at how we have altered the pronunciation of the other titles, I
> don't know "Kiab Toom" is pronounced in Lao the way we do it in Hmong
> though. It might have a different pronunciation.
>
> I also refute that it's Chinese or any other language. The title grow
> out of leadership in Laos. It would not have any significance if it
> wasn't a Lao word or Lao title.
>
> That's my assume. Get those older Hmong students who have studied
> Laotian and lived in the country longer to really verify this. I
> thought I would just give you my thoughts on it.
>
> Felix
>
> In article <t3vI4.13948$ei.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Hyenakllr" <hyen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > I asked the man to compare the title of "Kiab Toom" to the title of
> Nai
> > Kong, which was the highest ranked. The man said, Kiab Toom was under
> Chao
> > Mouang. Kiab Toom overseen a few taseng. I guess that Kiab Toom
> probably
> > equal to Nai Danh. I could be wrong. I did not familiar with Pha Sa
> Lasa.
> >
> > This is not proven right or wrong, anyone who wished to make comments
> or
> > suggestions are welcome. Positive equal light, negative equal
> darkness.
> > Positive equal plus, negative equal minus.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Hyenakllr.
> >
> >
>
>
Hyenakllr
Regards,
<main...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d0opn$781$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <t3vI4.13948$ei.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Hyenakllr" <hyen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> > I asked the man to compare the title of "Kiab Toom" to the title of
> Nai
> > Kong, which was the highest ranked. The man said, Kiab Toom was under
> Chao
> > Mouang. Kiab Toom overseen a few taseng. I guess that Kiab Toom
> probably
> > equal to Nai Danh.
>
> Hyena Killer, I myself have recently also been very curious as to where
> the word "Kiab Toom" [Kaitong] came from. Quincy, in his newest book
> which some here have alluded to, theorizes that the word is derived from
> a (Mandarin) Chinese word, "tu kwan", a title that the Ming assigned to
> ethnic ("Barbarian") officials on the southern frontiers. "Tu Kwan" does
> not sound anything like "kaitong", but perhaps the word "kaitong" is a
> southern (Cantonese, Fukienese, Yunnanese, etc) pronunciation of that
> mandarin word. What's interesting is that the word "kaitong" was not
> reserved for Hmong leaders alone. Vietnamese and some Thai leaders of
> the Sip Song Chuthai states also held the honorary title "kaitong".
> According to several experts that I've asked, the word is neither
> Vietnamese nor Thai, so it must be Chinese. Some believe that "kaitong"
> is the equivalent of the modern day "tasseng", however, a kaitong does
> not have the administrative authorities of a tasseng. "Kaitong" was
> merely an honorary title, and a kaitong's main duty was collecting
> taxes. In all other legal or administrative issues, the kaitong has to
> consult the Chao Muang and/or Chao Khoueng.
>
> Mai Na
>
>
main...@my-deja.com
"Marxfree" <marx...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just equipvelent to "Tasseng".
Kaitong
> controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several Naibanc.
But,
> Kaitong does not control as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.
Marx, perhaps there is some truth to what you say. Note, however, that
the Hmong have held kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but
according to Yang Dao et al. it was not until after the 1896 revolt, and
really after the Pachay revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were assigned
tasseng positions. Thus, to me, that says that the tasseng had more
authority than the kaitong. I don't know. I am not an expert, but I
think we are referring to two totally different systems here so kaitong
cannot be exactly equated with tasseng. Kaitong seems to be part of a
much older tradition of rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao khoueng,
etc... are titles of modernized/bureaucratized political systems
associated with an emerging Lao nation-state. In the old days when
Southeast Asia was not a region of nations, but rather a region of small
kingdoms, various Thai, Lao, Phuan, Vietnamese, and other kingdoms
designated the honorary title, "kaitong", to minority leaders and/or to
tributary states of these kingdoms. This practice was done away with at
the turn of the century when the French colonized Indochina,
consolidated territories, and created the modern nation-state
phenomenon. Minorities were then slowly integrated into the nation-state
and, hence, Hmong began to acquire tasseng titles. The kaitong title
disappeared altogether. So, again, two totally different systems of
rule--one associated with old kingdoms and principalities where
minorities and smaller tributary states existed virtually autonomous,
and the other with the modern nation-state where a more stringent hold
was placed upon the various groups of people.
I still don't know where the word kaitong comes from, however. Thanks
for brainstorming this topic. If anyone knows where the word is derived
from please let me know.
sil...@my-deja.com
Dear Mai Na and others,
Since my family had close tie and lived closed to both yuam txiv Pha Nya
and Dab Log VP all their lives, I ask my dad about the word "Kaitong".
He told me that he was not sure either, but it might came from a French
word. Also, he was sure that a Kaitong was more superior to a Tasseng.
The Kaitong worked directly with the French and the Tasseng work with
the Lao government. Just a thought.
SiLoob,
Yher266
>From: main...@my-deja.com
>Date: 4/12/00 11:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <8d1pog$h6r$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Marxfree" <marx...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just equipvelent to "Tasseng".
>>Kaitong controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several
>
>Marx, perhaps there is some truth to what you say. Note, however,
>that the Hmong have held kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but
>according to Yang Dao et al. it was not until after the 1896 revolt, and
>really after the Pachay revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were
>assigned tasseng positions. Thus, to me, that says that the tasseng had
>more authority than the kaitong. I don't know. I am not an expert, but
>I think we are referring to two totally different systems here so
>kaitong cannot be exactly equated with tasseng. Kaitong seems to be
>part of a much older tradition of rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao
>khoueng, etc
** Mai Na, while it's true that "kiatong" was likely of an older title (than
say, "tasseng," "chao muang," "chao khoueng," "nai banc," etc., for, as you
would note that while "kiatong" is Chinese while the rest are Lao terms), the
French saw the ever-widdeing squabbling of the various Hmong clans. At the
beginning there were only two or three strong clans. But very soon there were
many, as more and more people were crossing from the Chinese and Vietnamese
borders. The French, to get some competition going so as to select the most
efficient bureaucrats to serve them (that is, to bring them silver, slave
workers, and opium), I would argue, opted for two slightly less powerful
"tasseng's" in place of one slightly more powerful "kiatong".
Hawj Lauj
viola...@hotmail.com
"Hyenakllr" <hyen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> The statement below is based on a hear said, no written evidence or
fact. I
> am interesting to learn and understand about the word of "Kiab Toom".
> Was it a Lao word? French word? Vietnamese word or Hmong word?
This "Kiab Toom" position is a disgraceful one, I believe. Basically the
French and others used Hmong Kiab Toom to collect taxes from their own
people. I don't think us Hmong should be bestowing any honour on
this Kiab Toom position or the Hmong Kiab Toom of the past. The
embarrassing part is that some Hmong actually bid, compete, fought each
other for this disgraceful title! How shameful. If I was a Kiab Toom, I
wouldn't collect anything for the French at all. Screw them.
I wish I lived back then during the early 1900's so I could help lead
the rebellion and put a few bullets into those frenchies. I'm kinda glad
the japanese strung those french by their noses in Laos during World
War Two.
Marxfree
<main...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8d1pog$h6r$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Marxfree" <marx...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just equipvelent to "Tasseng".
> Kaitong
> > controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several Naibanc.
> But,
> > Kaitong does not control as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.
>
> Marx, perhaps there is some truth to what you say. Note, however, that
> the Hmong have held kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but
> according to Yang Dao et al. it was not until after the 1896 revolt, and
> really after the Pachay revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were assigned
> tasseng positions. Thus, to me, that says that the tasseng had more
> authority than the kaitong. I don't know. I am not an expert, but I
> think we are referring to two totally different systems here so kaitong
> cannot be exactly equated with tasseng. Kaitong seems to be part of a
> much older tradition of rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao khoueng,
> associated with an emerging Lao nation-state. In the old days when
> Southeast Asia was not a region of nations, but rather a region of small
> kingdoms, various Thai, Lao, Phuan, Vietnamese, and other kingdoms
> designated the honorary title, "kaitong", to minority leaders and/or to
> tributary states of these kingdoms. This practice was done away with at
> the turn of the century when the French colonized Indochina,
> consolidated territories, and created the modern nation-state
> phenomenon. Minorities were then slowly integrated into the nation-state
> and, hence, Hmong began to acquire tasseng titles. The kaitong title
> disappeared altogether. So, again, two totally different systems of
> rule--one associated with old kingdoms and principalities where
> minorities and smaller tributary states existed virtually autonomous,
> and the other with the modern nation-state where a more stringent hold
> was placed upon the various groups of people.
>
> I still don't know where the word kaitong comes from, however. Thanks
> for brainstorming this topic. If anyone knows where the word is derived
> from please let me know.
>
> Mai Na
>
Dear Mai Na:
Not many of other opinions but, especially, this post bring me to an
agreement with you. Thanks.
Marxfree
noo...@my-deja.com
viola...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <t3vI4.13948$ei.592014@bgtnsc04-
I wish you could be there in the 1900's to help
people.Let see, now you are in the 2000's could
you help us here in this country! We do not want
to pay tax!I can not wait to see that. Can you do
taht?
Bruce Bliatout
"If you dig deep enough on both sides, you will find the same truth"
=====================================================
Tom Lee
puav pub peb thiab kom peb cov loj tom qab kawm kom tau tej yam thiab
os. Zoo siab tau pom koj tuaj. Sib ntsib dua.
Tom
Bruce Bliatout wrote:
> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
> Encoding: quoted-printable
feli...@my-deja.com
Felix
In article <OVTK4.230$Ax3....@nntp1.onemain.com>,
"Bruce Bliatout" <blia...@teleport.com> wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0256_01BFA8CA.5E498580
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Below are my two cents about the word "Kiab Toom". I believe, it
came =
> from the French word "Canton". In France, Canton is the subdivision
of =
> a "arrondissement" or a "district". Those of you who live in France
or =
> know the French political and/or administrative systems, please
verify =
> this. The word "Canton", if I understood correctly, is also the
TITLE =
> OF THE PERSON WHO IS IN-CHARGE OF A CANTON TERRITORY, which
means "Chief =
> of a Canton or the Administrator of a Canton". =20
>
> So when the French came to Indochina and promoted LO BLIAYAO to that =
> position (CANTON), the Hmong could not pronounce it correctly. They
=
> then adapted the sound of "Canton" to the Hmong sound of "KIAB TOOM".
=20
>
> According to one of my staff, Dr. Joseph K. Nguyen, "CANTON" was also
=
> used for the same purpose in Vietnam during the French colonization
of =
> Indochina. It was later translated into the native languages, such
as =
> "Tasseng" in Laos, and "Cai Tong" in Vietnam. Everyone who bore that
=
> title after Lo Bliayao were known as "Tasseng" in Laos and "Cai Tong"
in =
> Vietnam. This is probably why the very honorable title of "KIAB
TOOM" =
> in the Hmong language has been disappeared after LO BLIAYAO. =20
>
> Nyiajpov Npliajtub =20
>
> =20
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D
> "If you dig deep enough on both sides, you will find the same truth"
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D
> <main...@my-deja.com> wrote in message =
> news:8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8d1pog$h6r$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "Marxfree" <marx...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just equipvelent to "Tasseng".
> > Kaitong
> > > controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several =
> Naibanc.
> > But,
> > > Kaitong does not control as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.
> >=20
> > Marx, perhaps there is some truth to what you say. Note, however,
that
> > the Hmong have held kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but
> > according to Yang Dao et al. it was not until after the 1896
revolt, =
> and
> > really after the Pachay revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were
assigned
> > tasseng positions. Thus, to me, that says that the tasseng had more
> > authority than the kaitong. I don't know. I am not an expert, but I
> > think we are referring to two totally different systems here so =
> kaitong
> > cannot be exactly equated with tasseng. Kaitong seems to be part
of a
> > much older tradition of rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao
khoueng,
> > etc... are titles of modernized/bureaucratized political systems
> > associated with an emerging Lao nation-state. In the old days when
> > Southeast Asia was not a region of nations, but rather a region of =
> small
> > kingdoms, various Thai, Lao, Phuan, Vietnamese, and other kingdoms
> > designated the honorary title, "kaitong", to minority leaders
and/or =
> to
> > tributary states of these kingdoms. This practice was done away
with =
> at
> > the turn of the century when the French colonized Indochina,
> > consolidated territories, and created the modern nation-state
> > phenomenon. Minorities were then slowly integrated into the =
> nation-state
> > and, hence, Hmong began to acquire tasseng titles. The kaitong title
> > disappeared altogether. So, again, two totally different systems of
> > rule--one associated with old kingdoms and principalities where
> > minorities and smaller tributary states existed virtually
autonomous,
> > and the other with the modern nation-state where a more stringent
hold
> > was placed upon the various groups of people.
> >=20
> > I still don't know where the word kaitong comes from, however.
Thanks
> > for brainstorming this topic. If anyone knows where the word is =
> derived
> > from please let me know.
> >=20
> > Mai Na
> >=20
> >=20
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0256_01BFA8CA.5E498580
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Dear friends,</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Below are my two cents about the word
=
> "Kiab=20
> Toom". I believe, it came from the French word =
> "Canton". In=20
> France, Canton is the subdivision of a "arrondissement" or a=20
> "district". Those of you who live in France or know the French =
> political=20
> and/or administrative systems, please verify this. The
word =
> "Canton",=20
> if I understood correctly, is also the TITLE OF THE PERSON WHO
IS =
> IN-CHARGE=20
> OF A CANTON TERRITORY, which means "Chief of a Canton or
the=20
> Administrator of a Canton". </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>So when the French came to Indochina and =
> promoted LO=20
> BLIAYAO to that position (CANTON), the Hmong could not
pronounce =
> it=20
> correctly. They then adapted the sound of "Canton" to the Hmong
=
> sound of=20
> "KIAB TOOM". </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>According to one of my staff, Dr. Joseph=20
> K. Nguyen, "CANTON" was also used for the same purpose in =
> Vietnam=20
> during the French colonization of Indochina. It was =
> later=20
> translated into the native languages, such as "Tasseng" in =
> Laos,=20
> and "Cai Tong" in Vietnam. Everyone who bore that title
after =
> Lo=20
> Bliayao were known as "Tasseng" in Laos and "Cai Tong" in=20
> Vietnam. This is probably why the very honorable title of =
> "KIAB TOOM"=20
> in the Hmong language has been disappeared after LO
BLIAYAO. =20
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Nyiajpov Npliajtub =
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT=20
>
size=3D2> &nb
s=
>
p; &nbs
p=
> ; =20
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
>
size=3D3>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>"If you dig deep=20
> enough on both sides, you will find the same=20
>
truth"<BR></FONT>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><<A=20
> href=3D"mailto:main...@my-deja.com">main...@my-deja.com</A>>
wrote =
> in message=20
> <A=20
>
href=3D"news:8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.com">news:8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.c
o=
> m</A>...</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
> size=3D2>> In article <<A=20
>
href=3D"mailto:8d1pog$h6r$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net">8d1pog$h6r$1@slb1.a
t=
> l.mindspring.net</A>>,<BR>>=20
> "Marxfree" <<A=20
>
href=3D"mailto:marx...@mindspring.com">marx...@mindspring.com</A>>=
20
> wrote:<BR>> > Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just =
> equipvelent to=20
> "Tasseng".<BR>> Kaitong<BR>> > controls few Tasseng but
Tasseng =
> itself=20
> control only several Naibanc.<BR>> But,<BR>> > Kaitong does
not =
> control=20
> as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.<BR>> <BR>> Marx, perhaps
=
> there is=20
> some truth to what you say. Note, however, that<BR>> the Hmong
have =
> held=20
> kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but<BR>> according to Yang
=
> Dao et al.=20
> it was not until after the 1896 revolt, and<BR>> really after the =
> Pachay=20
> revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were assigned<BR>> tasseng =
> positions. Thus,=20
> to me, that says that the tasseng had more<BR>> authority than the
=
> kaitong. I=20
> don't know. I am not an expert, but I<BR>> think we are referring
to =
> two=20
> totally different systems here so kaitong<BR>> cannot be exactly =
> equated with=20
> tasseng. Kaitong seems to be part of a<BR>> much older =
> tradition of=20
> rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao khoueng,<BR>> etc... are
titles =
> of=20
> modernized/bureaucratized political systems<BR>> associated with
an =
> emerging=20
> Lao nation-state. In the old days when<BR>> Southeast Asia was not
a =
> region=20
> of nations, but rather a region of small<BR>> kingdoms, various
Thai, =
> Lao,=20
> Phuan, Vietnamese, and other kingdoms<BR>> designated the honorary
=
> title,=20
> "kaitong", to minority leaders and/or to<BR>> tributary states of =
> these=20
> kingdoms. This practice was done away with at<BR>> the turn of the
=
> century=20
> when the French colonized Indochina,<BR>> consolidated
territories, =
> and=20
> created the modern nation-state<BR>> phenomenon. Minorities were
then =
> slowly=20
> integrated into the nation-state<BR>> and, hence, Hmong began to =
> acquire=20
> tasseng titles. The kaitong title<BR>> disappeared
altogether. =
> So,=20
> again, two totally different systems of<BR>> rule--one associated =
> with old=20
> kingdoms and principalities where<BR>> minorities and smaller =
> tributary=20
> states existed virtually autonomous,<BR>> and the other with the =
> modern=20
> nation-state where a more stringent hold<BR>> was placed upon the =
> various=20
> groups of people.<BR>> <BR>> I still don't know where the word =
> kaitong=20
> comes from, however. Thanks<BR>> for brainstorming this
topic. =
> If=20
> anyone knows where the word is derived<BR>> from please let me =
> know.<BR>>=20
> <BR>> Mai Na<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Sent via Deja.com <A=20
> href=3D"http://www.deja.com/">http://www.deja.com/</A><BR>> Before
=
> you=20
> buy.</FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0256_01BFA8CA.5E498580--
Bruce Bliatout
Thov ua koj tsaug. Kuv zoo siab thiab cia siab hais tias nej cov hluas sawv
daws hlub Hmoob thiab mob siab rau Hmoob lub neej. Kav tsij rau siab ntso
kawm, sib tham, sib pauv tswv yim, sib pab, thiab sib txhawb kom peb tsoom
Hmoob muaj lub neej zoo li luag pej xeem. Yog muaj yam twg kuv paub, txawj,
thiab xam pom, kuv yuav muab los faib thiab qhia rau sawv daws tib yam li
nej tau ua los lawm. Bruce
=====================================================
"If you dig deep enough on both sides, you will find the same truth"
=====================================================
news:38FC2004...@anch.net...
"Kab ...@tc.umn.edu
Marxfree wrote:
<main...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d3qrr$hto$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8d1pog$h6r$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Marxfree" <marx...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Mai Na, the title "Kaitong" is not just equipvelent to "Tasseng".
> Kaitong
> > controls few Tasseng but Tasseng itself control only several Naibanc.
> But,
> > Kaitong does not control as many Tasseng as a Chao Meuang does.
>
> Marx, perhaps there is some truth to what you say. Note, however, that
> the Hmong have held kaitong titles before coming into Laos, but
> according to Yang Dao et al. it was not until after the 1896 revolt, and
> really after the Pachay revolt of 1918-22 that the Hmong were assigned
> tasseng positions. Thus, to me, that says that the tasseng had more
> authority than the kaitong. I don't know. I am not an expert, but I
> think we are referring to two totally different systems here so kaitong
> cannot be exactly equated with tasseng. Kaitong seems to be part of a
> much older tradition of rule while tasseng, chao muang, chao khoueng,
> etc... are titles of modernized/bureaucratized political systems
> associated with an emerging Lao nation-state. In the old days when
> Southeast Asia was not a region of nations, but rather a region of small
> kingdoms, various Thai, Lao, Phuan, Vietnamese, and other kingdoms
> designated the honorary title, "kaitong", to minority leaders and/or to
> tributary states of these kingdoms. This practice was done away with at
> the turn of the century when the French colonized Indochina,
> consolidated territories, and created the modern nation-state
> phenomenon. Minorities were then slowly integrated into the nation-state
> and, hence, Hmong began to acquire tasseng titles. The kaitong title
> disappeared altogether. So, again, two totally different systems of
> rule--one associated with old kingdoms and principalities where
> minorities and smaller tributary states existed virtually autonomous,
> and the other with the modern nation-state where a more stringent hold
> was placed upon the various groups of people.
>
> I still don't know where the word kaitong comes from, however. Thanks
> for brainstorming this topic. If anyone knows where the word is derived
> from please let me know.
>
> Mai Na
>Dear Mai Na:
Not many of other opinions but, especially, this post bring me to an
agreement with you. Thanks.
Marxfree
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you
To All:
Very encouraging to see an "Emerging Young Hmong Audience" dedicates time to seek truth on past history. If really the word "Kaitong" triggerred some of you then, I am happy to direct your research to the French IndoChina Administration (French Colonization in IndoChina, L'Indochine Francaise).Reminders:
Any of the following discussion issued about, on or after "Chaofah BatChai's Messiah War" against the French Rule in IndoChina and "Kaitong Lao BliaYao" might lead to different objective opinions, but historical facts remain intact. On this short summarized conclusion I could attest it was the "Fisrt Time" in history that "Hmong Affairs" had been brought to the "International Political Scene" of the world.
All
have a very good research and best success in endevouring more on the Hmong
dinosaurian myth.
Brushoff2
pdy...@my-deja.com
opinion exchange boards. I agree with his conclusion regarding the
word "Kiab toom". My memory from reading literiture about French
Colonial in Indochina. The title came from French "Canton". But the
Hmong could not pronounce it right so they say "Kiabtoom"
or "Kaibtoom".
I really wish to see more Ph.Ds and M.Ds participating in these
discussion boards.
Sincerely,
P.D.Yarng
In article <8dbjhu$uq5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
viola...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <t3vI4.13948$ei.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Hyenakllr" <hyen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > To: sch participants:
> >
> > The statement below is based on a hear said, no written evidence or
> fact. I
> > am interesting to learn and understand about the word of "Kiab
Toom".
> > Was it a Lao word? French word? Vietnamese word or Hmong word?
>
> This "Kiab Toom" position is a disgraceful one, I believe. Basically
the
> French and others used Hmong Kiab Toom to collect taxes from their own
> people. I don't think us Hmong should be bestowing any honour on
> this Kiab Toom position or the Hmong Kiab Toom of the past. The
> embarrassing part is that some Hmong actually bid, compete, fought
each
> other for this disgraceful title! How shameful. If I was a Kiab Toom,
I
> wouldn't collect anything for the French at all. Screw them.
>
> I wish I lived back then during the early 1900's so I could help lead
> the rebellion and put a few bullets into those frenchies. I'm kinda
glad
> the japanese strung those french by their noses in Laos during World
> War Two.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.