Ly Teck's Dream [Lis Teeb Txoj Kev Npau Suav]
M. M. Lee
interviewed Ly Teck personally in the 1970s, that Ly Teck had big
dreams for the Hmong. Ly Teck is perhaps one of the most misunderstood
persons of all time because Hmong blame him for the shooting of Hmong
at Hinh Heup. To this day, however, I have not been able to ascertain
if Ly Teck was even at Hinh Heup, and I have only been able to find
very little information about Ly Teck. I will have to interview his
direct family members for further information. So far I have learned
from more distant sources that Ly Teck was the first Hmong to earn a
degree in France. Dr. Yang Dao can correct me on this, but I think Ly
Teck even earned his degree before Dr. Yang Dao earned his PhD
(although Ly Teck's degree was not a PhD).
Ly Teck, when these two scholars interviewed him in 1971/72, did not
support General Vang Pao's war efforts. This might be the reason why
he became unpopular. He had become disillusioned about what the
general was doing and he openly espoused a different dream for the
Hmong. Ly Teck told these two scholars (graduate students completing
their PhDs at the time who are now professors at prestigious
universities) that he no longer wanted the Hmong to die as many of
them had died already while bearing the large burden of the lowland
Lao. He believed that rather than remain in the mountains and
fighting a war and dying, the Hmong should move down to the lowland
areas around Vietiane. If the Hmong did that, then the battle would
take place in the lowlands and the lowland Lao would have no choice,
but to also contribute to the defense of Vientiane and Laos in
general. Of course, Ly Teck was aware that moving down to the lowlands
would require the Hmong to learn new agricultural techniques. Ly Teck
had this plan where Hmong could take up paddy rice farming and cattle
raising. When the two scholars met Ly Teck, he had in fact begun a
cattle raising business and found it to be a lucrative endeavor. He
was also experimenting with paddy farming to see how it works and how
it could be taught to Hmong who were used to the slash-n-burn
techniques of the hills. The reason why Ly Teck was later blamed for
many things was perhaps due to the fact that he openly contradicted
Vang Pao's actions. Moreover, he even had begun to take concrete steps
to undermine VP's actions by bringing the Hmong down to the lowlands.
He had already brought families of his own lineage to the lowlands at
the time.
To this day, I believe Ly Teck is misunderstood. Some ignorant Hmong
have openly said that Ly Teck was a traitor to the Hmong, but they
have no knowledge of Ly Teck or his dreams for the Hmong. This is a
very interesting topic and I urge all Hmong scholars to do further
research before drawing conclusions. Coming from a non-literate
society Hmong are often too quick to rely on rumors as fact. This is
why Hmong are susceptible to propagandas of all kind and are easily
exploited. The new generation of Hmong scholars need to raise their
criteria for establishing the facts. They need to be more critical and
objective in their analysis. I'm not saying that will be easy to do as
all of us have our own prejudices and blind spots, but we must leave
room for the fact that we could still be wrong even after rigorious
research.
-M
Tou Ly
onto this subject in the next couple of days. It seems that many Hmong
have this deeply ingrained bias told to them for so long that they
somehow find it almost impossible to believe that Lyteck actually only
wanted the best for the Hmong people. His opposition was solely to Gen
Vang Pao and his advisors' policies, not against the Hmong. How a vast
majority came to see him as a traitor is difficult to understand. I
can see how they drew their conclusion, but it's not the right one.
And I will dispell it.
Almost exactly 6 years ago back in 1998 we had a Lyteck discussion
before. Many of you might still recall. I was younger then and my
approach pretty much reflected my age. I'm not sure if I made any
friends with my then attitude, but, well, I did and said what I
thought was the right thing to do then. I was also new to the internet
so was unfamiliar with the SCH setup. I ended up posting subjects in
threads which had no relation to the topic at all. I must have
confused some poeple by this. Well I'm older now and a bit wiser so I
intend to explain the Lyteck issue much clearer than before.
BTW, there were/are two people who wanted to interview my father
concerning Lyteck and the Hin Heup incident. One of them actually came
to Canada, but my father had gone to France during that time, so he
didn't get his chance. However, there's still another person left.
Should that person want I will send a bus or plane ticket over. My
father is getting up there with age so it would be prudent to discuss
this and other matters with him soon.
Tou Ly
mlee...@hotmail.com (M. M. Lee) wrote in message news:<ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Kao-Ly Yang
Tau ntev lawm, kuv xav tuaj nrog nej sawv daws tham lawm ... Tab sis, kuv
tseem twm me ntsis nej cov lus no. Tam si no, kuv paub zoo cov menyuam hmoob
kawm ntawv siab me ntsis lawm thiab ... Kuv yeej pom hais tias lawv coj li
cov loj zog lawm: xav koj lawm yog tawg tug tau xwb, tsis txawj sib txhawb
zog li ... Lino, kuw tseem nco cov lus kuv nug Maina hais tias, ua cas Maina
pheej nquag tuaj nrog cov neeg sawv daws tham ua luaj ... . Xyov puas hloov
tau dab tsi hauv Hmoob lub siab zais siab thiab qhia dub rau nws tus kheej
noj xwb; los sis rau nws lub xeem xwb ... . I am wondering if I have not
wasted so much my time in supporting so much Hmong students ... in my poor
position of unemployment position ... It is just a wonder in general .... .
I am myself enough busy ... But poeple like Maina with some strong
background, it will be a loss for her professional growth .. She did not
yet publish something that will help her in the future .. all her energy
here is just lost and sent to the wrong persons ...
Nkauj Hli
"M. M. Lee" <mlee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com...
Moobsib
Zoo sab koj rov tuaj faib tswvyim rua peb tau nyeem dlua.
Kuv saib yog mej cov hluas kws muaj txuj sab yuav tog kuas peb ib
tsoom Hmoob suav dlawg txawj, paubcai hab leem leem cai es txhaj tsi
nkim mej lub zug hab lub caij mas mej ua puj ntxoog nyob peg qaum kev
saib/ntsia xwb yuav zoo dlua rua mej.
Tub yog vim txuj kev peb haiv Hmoob tsi txawj es txhaj tog ntshi mej
cov txawj lug cob, lub qha hab lug coj. Yog yuav tog txug txij peb
suav dlawg txawj hab seej taag lawd mas ntshai peb ho tsi yuav mej
lawm hab.
I am not trying to oftend you but merely reacting to your statement
above. If I missunderstood you please accept my apology.
Best regard,
Tij Laug Paaj Nruag
Charlie
A man's great deed seldomly goes unrewarded. I'm certain if late Mr.
Ly was a man of great deeds and noble conscience, the whole Hmong SCH
colleagues would soon jump up and down toward your harping.
I wonder why of all the great Lee's in the history of Hmong kind, you
selected Mr. Ly Tek to blow his horn. What does that tell us about
you? Should you be talking about the Great Lee, Lue (the T-28 pilot),
late Col. Ly, U Va, Col. Ly, Blong Lyfong, and Praya Ly, Toulia. These
are Ly men that all Hmong will honor and cherish their memories.
Charlie
mlee...@hotmail.com (M. M. Lee) wrote in message news:<ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Charlie
A person of your academia and intellect should no longer seek guidance
but let your intuition and education lead you. Leaders aren't borned;
they're taught.
Mai Nas knows that. Trial and error is what it is. You should have
seen Maiv Nas's younger years in SCH; she wrote her threads as if
Hmong men were barbaric and out to get her. Now, you hardly ever see
her that way anymore. She's equal among all of us. The bottomline is:
familiarity breeds contempt. But remember tejlaus hais, "niamtxiv
sibceg tas ris nrauj lub txaj, viv ncaus thiab kwvtij sib ceg tas tsis
nrauj tus dab (meaning Hmong tus principle)." Yog koj tuaj ib lwm es
ib tug hais ib los tsis zoo rau koj xwb koj cia li chim mus tsis tuaj
li lawm ces yog koj tseem kawm tsis tau tiav lub neej Hmoob.
All in all, it's good to hear from you. Ua siab ntev!
Charlie
"Kao-Ly Yang" <ka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fRa7c.12809$pH4...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
Teev Lis
I beg to disagree. I believe that it is perfectly all right for Maina
to share her views in this forum. Not everything we do has to be
scholarly or even serious. Each among us is quite aware of the nature
of this forum. Yet, here we meet, interact and exchange on an equal
basis. It would be very unfortunate and, in fact, wasteful if we
reserve our minds and energy only for pursuits that we cannot readily
share. Scholarly work has no value unless it is useful.
Scholarly publication has its own time. Casualness in life is no less
deserving in its own domain.
Teev
"Kao-Ly Yang" <ka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fRa7c.12809$pH4...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
Hmoob1
intellectual mind.
Yangsao
Ly Teck Lynhiavu was indeed the first Hmong to ever have graduated
with a BA in France, back in 1967 or 68. He once helped me with some
of my compositions in a Philosophy class (in French of course). Ly
Teck's major was Political Sciences, from the "Institut d'etudes
politiques" of Paris. He was sent for futher studies in Great Britain
with a financial support from VP. I don't remember exactly why, how
and when VP withdrew his support for Ly Teck. Ly Tou Lynhiavu could
provide more information on the sudden separation of VP and his uncle
Ly Teck.
We all should remember that the famous village of KM 52 in the
province of Vientiane was a creation of Ly Teck. KM 52 has become a
very popular stop place for tourists traveling on the ROUTE 3 of Laos.
After a fire that burned it to ground, the KM 52 market has been
rebuilt "bigger", and with better construction materials.
Some people may comment that the market and most house owners in KM 52
are now of the ethnic Lao (Lowland Lao), and the majority of Hmong
nearby live in hut houses. Same observation can be applied to the
Village of Kieu Ka Cham, (a Meo village by a Lao famous song in the
late 60), located between Kasi and Sala Phoukhoun on ROUTE #3 to
Luangprabang and Xiengkhouang. This is not to blame the local Lao, but
just to note the Hmong residents didn't know how to exploit their own
economical potential, maybe for the lack of money or commercial
know-how. The Hmong outside Laos may jump in to lend their hands in
the future.
SYS
----------------------------------
mlee...@hotmail.com (M. M. Lee) wrote in message news:<ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Pao
A forum such as SCH is just one ideal forum for anyone, including you
to broadcast POSITIVE view, knowledge or anyhting else that you want
to target any Hmong or any non-hmong about just about any thing.
You are broadcasting GLOBALLY! and as the Chinese said, "it is your
duty to share the good things". So, after the many years of grueling
study, getting a PD D and the years of searching for your own
Identity, the years observing, studying and learning about our Hmong
communities, reading all what other scholars have said about the
Hmong... and NOW you have time to digest all that information, cross
polinating all that knowledge and you, as Mani and many people in this
forums, have suddenly discover or come to a NEW realisation about
life, about the Hmong and many other things...
SO, NOW it is the time to share. Some will turn a blind eye or deaf
ear but every now and then, one person may listen! But it only take
one or a handful of people to change the world as history has shown
us.
So... just do what ever you can, with what ever you have, from where
you are with whatever mean available to us, either thru the family,
community, academivcally, politically or even thru SCH... the scope is
open for any one....
Hope that this make you feel abit better, Dr Kao-Ly.
Pao
"A drop of ink can make thousands think"
"Kao-Ly Yang" <ka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fRa7c.12809$pH4...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
M. M. Lee
Tamsim no kuv nrog koj tham tsis muaj nuj nqi dabtsi. Ib hnub twg, koj
cov evidence thiab cov research tawm liab ploog lawm, kuv mam li rov
los nrog koj tham yeej tsis lig li. Tamsim no koj twb tsis muaj quav
dabtsi li yog kuv los nrog koj tham txog tej no ces yog kuv los ua
haujlwm rau koj kom koj paub ntxiv xwb (free research for you,
right?). Hahaha. I don't think so, Charlie. I don't do your dirty work
for you. You want to prove Ly Teck guilty, that's your job. Provide us
with the evidence. Otherwise, there is no discussion to be had here so
don't be trying to attack me personally. Like you said below, what the
heck kind of person are you that everytime someone posts something
that contradicts your rumors and propaganda, you think you can
intimidate them with personal attacks? All you ever do here, Charlie,
is to claim that people don't know the "truth" like you do but you
yourself provide nothing. It's as if you think you are just GOD and so
your word is just Truth and we should just believe you. Well...you
ain't God. So for once, stick to the subject and provide the evidence.
That might impress me.
-M
charli...@yahoo.com (Charlie) wrote in message news:<bd1cd63a.04032...@posting.google.com>...
M. M. Lee
Koj yuav tsum rov tuaj hauv no nas. Koj puas paub hais tias koj thiab
kuv muaj chance los nrog cov Hmoob tham ces yog hauv nov xwb. Kuv qhia
ntawv hauv university tau 5 xyoo lawm. Kuv hais rau koj hais tias kuv
yeej tsis muaj chance los nrog cov Hmoob li phaum koj thiab kuv wb no
sib tham li. Cov yau ces lawv yau yau lawv tsis paub tej xwv txheem ua
tabtom cov nyom peb cov Hmoob. Cov laus ces tsis paub ntaub paub ntawv
nyob tom vaj tom tsev deb deb kuv lawm. Ua siab ntev. Yus yuav tsum
sim yus tus kub thiab thiaj li zuag zuj zus tuj. Yog pheej nyob xwb
ces tsam yus tus me kub cia li npub zuj zus lawm. Kuv tuaj hauv lub
SCH no kuv muaj huam phiaj xav tshawb nrhiav hais tias kev los coj
Hmoob no nyuaj npaum li cas. Hmoob cov tswvyim muaj tsawg hom thiab
twb loj hlob mus txog qib twg lawm no. Kuv tuaj tuaj hauv nov, kuj pib
paub Hmoob lub siab thiab tus cwjpwm zuj zuj. Qhov nov pab tau kuv pom
peb Hmoob tus hneev taw thiab pab tau kuv analyze peb tej keeb kwm
hais tias yog muab piv rau ntiajteb no peb mus txog qib twg lawm. Kuv
tsis yog tuaj qhia lawv cov hauv nov vim hais tias tsis muaj leejtwg
them nyiaj rau kuv, tabsis tuaj kawm ntawm lawv. Believe me, I always
learn more than what I give.
Don't worry about life, Hli. When the time comes, everything will come
together. One has to trust in oneself. As for devoting time to others,
I believe people like you and I will never be able to avoid it even if
our intellect tells us to do the opposite. Yus niam yus txiv yog neeg
muaj kev pab cuam rau yus haiv neeg thiab ev yus haiv neeg lub nra los
lawm ces yus yeej yuav zoo li ntawd thiab. It's in the genes. I bet
you that if you did not "waste" so much time to help those Hmong
students and have published tons of stuff already so that you now have
your cushy job in some prestigious university, you would feel even
worse than you do now. For people like us, it's damned if you do and
damned if you don't. You help others, you have no time for yourself.
You ignore others and help only yourself, you feel so guilty about it
that you get nothing done for yourself anyway. Perpetual guilt is the
price one pays for having eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to
feel. Just get used to it instead of regretting.
-M
"Kao-Ly Yang" <ka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fRa7c.12809$pH4...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
lyhoueisoy
I suppose that you are lytou PASHA, I do not think that LY TEAK is a draft
as say certain leader hmong, it A can be reason to try to convince the hmong
to change their methods of cultures. Its modern ideology confronts with a
strong military power of Longcheng what obliges it to settle in the corner
lost of in Lac 52. In connection with shooting of Hine heup, nobody knows
how this negotiation concludes by the blood bath, the culpability of this
drama is surely not dů with Lys teak imagine even which is the person in
charge for died for the refugees of the bridge of Hine Heup.
ly , (french)
"Tou Ly" <Tou...@Asianavenue.com> a écrit dans le message news:
e947f0e5.04032...@posting.google.com...
YaMyyoufuYang
Maina:
As a young teenager who spent his last year in Laos around
Lyteck(74-75)- to these vey days I still wonder what went wrong in
Hinh Heup.It's very hard for me to swallow the rumor that Lyteck
ordered the shooting of Hmong women & children. If he did, he was not
the man I once knew.The man I knew was very caring and conrcern about
the Hmong.How do I know? I was one of the young teenager he & his
brothers helped.His brother, the late Ly Pao LyNhiavue , used to tell
me if you don't have the monies to buy candle to study then study on
my porch which I did.If I have to rank all the Lee's leaders who made
a difference in my personal life: Tou Ger Lyfoung first, Ly Pao
Lynhiavue(second), and then Lyteck LyNhiavue.
Best Regard,
Ya Myyoufu Yang
Ntsuabxwm
half day in the bus, and dicided to go back to Ban Souan. That aren't
easy day for all hmong peolpe thsese day. We saw the dead and the
wound being treat at hospital at Ban Souan. I have chance passed
through Hinh Heup one week after the shooting. I believe the order of
the shooting are from Ly Teck himself and associate Ly Tou and some
other Ly. After the shooting Ly Teck were secure by Pathat Lao and
than dispare ever since. his widow marry his cousin later on.
Ly Teck was smart and very educate during that time. So far we know
and heard rumor that VP scare and fear that Ly Teck and all the Ly
will try to over throught VP. and take over the power. VP than order
Ly Teck out of Long Chieng.
I have a friend very close to Ly Tou he tell us all. He said he even
know their voice, don't have to look for their face.
Ntsuabxwm
mlee...@hotmail.com (M. M. Lee) wrote in message news:<ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Moobsib
regard,
pdy
Tou Ly
Are you the person that wrote me awhile ago asking for one of my
uncles? Well, yes, I'm Ly Tou Pacha also, but not the Ly Tou you might
be thinking of. I believe you're referring to my father's younger
brother, which of course is my uncle. He lives in Sacramento, CA
nowadays.
Tou Ly
"lyhoueisoy" <lyhou...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:<405ec5cd$0$16164$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
Tou Ly
Ya,
Most of the Hmong in the KM-52 area who know Lyteck and saw the
benefit of his vision (albeit not much at the time for it was just
fledgling) will tell a very different story than the ones who are from
other areas of the country and have only heard rumours from his
detractors, primarily GVP and his advisors.
And I'm not the younger brother of Ly Pao, but the nephew. I'm
Nplooj's son, if you didn't already know.
Tou Ly
lyhoueisoy
Yes it is true, it seems to me that one knew oneself, each blow I take to
you for Ly tou LYPACHA. I must excuse this confusion.
Hakpheng
"Tou Ly" <Tou...@Asianavenue.com> a écrit dans le message news:
e947f0e5.04032...@posting.google.com...
Moobsib
Ntawm Lis Teeb Pajtsaab mas kuv tug kheej los yeej tau ntsib hab tau
nrug thaam lawm. Nwg yeej txawj has lug muas lug mog, ntxim sab kawg.
Ua ke ntawd kuj tau ntsib coob leej kwvtij Hmoob kws raug tua nyob Hin
Heup. Txhua tug yeej has tas Lis Teeb Pajtsab yog tug ntaus thawj tuaj
cheem Hmoob ntawm tug choj. Thaus Hmoob tsi noog nwg lug ces nwg txhaj
tso ncauj rua peeb zeej Koomtshaas tua peb cov Hmoob. Ib tug pov thawj
mas yog nwg raug phom ua rua nwg luv dluav (spinal cord injury) tawm
sis nwg tsev neeg muab nwg cawm tau hab tsiv tuaj txug Miskas teb
nuav. As Ya said, I just cannot believe that gentle and highly
educated Ly Tek ordered such massacre on his own people.
Movtshua,
ms
ChaV
Peb cov niag ua npab npab nauj nyob puag pem roob xwb, peb yeej tsis
paub txog qhov teeb meem no li thiab ov. Tej teeb meem no yog muaj
tseeb tiag no nws kuj yog ib qho very serious, txiv tua neeg ntag
laiv.
Maina, koj yog tus qhib (open) case no tawm tuaj, kuv ntshai ib tsam
ces "Nruas hnov nruas to qhov, qeej hnov qeej lov" xwb lauv.
-Cha.
Marxfree
yuav khiav nkag vijtsam tsis yeej lauj.
Marxfree
"M. M. Lee" <mlee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com...
Charlie
I will always respect your opinion and I have nothing against late Mr.
Ly. I don't need to come up with any evidence, either. But I will
tell you a Hmong fable called, "The Goatherd and the Goat."
A Goatherd was one day gathering his flock to return to the fold, when
one of his Goats strayed and refused to join the rest. He tried for a
long time to get her to return by calling and whistling to her, but
the Goat took no notice of him at all: so at last he threw a stone at
her and broke one of her horns.
In dismay, he begged her not to tell his master (the owner of the
goat): but she replied, "You silly fellow, my horn would cry aloud
even if I cut off my tongue."
The point is: it's no use trying to hide what can't be hidden. Just
go read Moobsib's thread. Now, the Hmong who was shot maybe a stubborn
goat (which I don't doubt), but the herder (Mr. Ly Teck in this case)
has no right to order the shot. Sorry! I over simplified!
Charlie
mlee...@hotmail.com (M. M. Lee) wrote in message news:<ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com>...
M. M. Lee
It seems that Ly Teck generates some extreme views. I often wonder
about this and have devoted a minute amount of time to thinking about
it whenever my mind is free. I begin with what I know. I know that
human beings usually do not operate in the extreme, but rather in the
middle. Extreme personalities are rare in the human culture. So when a
personality begins to take shape in the extreme among the opinions of
society (either as a demon or a saint), we must begin again to ask
questions as to why that is. One is that the rumors and perceptions of
the person is totally accurate and true. And as humans are not used to
extremes, they remember it and record it in their collective memories.
Second, it could be that the person just happened to be a victim of
history--a convenient scapegoat of uncertain times and situations. The
community needed someone to be accountable and to be blamed and that
person happens to be there because he or she was more outspoken and
had rubbed certain people in the wrong way so got the finger pointing.
This was the case for the women at the Salemn witch trials. Those who
were declared "witches" and hung were women who stood on the fringe of
society or women who challenged established male religious
authorities. Even Jesus himself was crucified because he challenged
established religious authorities. A third theory is that the rumors
are totally false--generated as propaganda to malign the individual.
If it is the third theory, then one has to understand how and why
these rumors were generated and what motives lay behind them.
Where Ly Teck is concerned, I doubt very much that he was at Hinh Heup
at the time of the shooting because I have interviewed victims who
were there during the shooting and they did not see Ly Teck. [However,
I am still open to the idea that he may very well have been there,
too]. Moreover, some individuals I interviewed were not even aware
that Ly Teck had been attributed to that massacre. The ones who did
realize that Ly Teck was blamed said they learned that once they were
in Thailand and heard from other Hmong. My own theory (and I have not
been interested enough in this topic to really examine it so it
remains as theory) is that perhaps Ly Teck was there the few days
before, as he was at other places with Touby, trying to persuade Hmong
not to leave Laos. I believe he was there, although not during the day
of the shooting itself, because it's too much of a stretch for Hmong
to just make up the fact that he was there. But, that Ly Teck may have
been there shortly before the shooting and tried to persuade people to
return to their homes is not in and off itself proof that he ordered
the shooting of the Hmong at Hinh Heup. We can, however, certainly
understand how Hmong, being immersed in an oral tradition that relies
much on rumors and speculation, would come to that conclusion. They
saw Ly Teck there the few days before telling them to go back home so
when the shooting began they automatically assume he ordered them
shot. Besides, the fact that the Hmong were barred from crossing the
bridge had made them mad enough as it was, and if Ly Teck were there
telling them not to go through, too, then that would be extra motive
for them to blame him for the shooting they suffered later.
The surprising thing about this whole tragic incident is that people
do not blame Touby Lyfoung. Perhaps it was because Touby was lucky or
smart enough not to be at Hinh Heup to persuade Hmong to return home.
Touby Lyfoung himself, however, also tried to persuade Hmong not to
leave in other places. Ultimately, Touby was in a higher position than
Ly Teck, and if there were orders to be done, it would make more sense
to say Touby had given it. This is not to say Touby had anything to do
with the shooting, but merely to inquire into the rationale as to why
the blame was not assigned to Touby but easily assigned to Ly Teck. So
why was Ly Teck the scapegoat? Perhaps precisely because he was
powerless and had no established prestige among the Hmong. Powerless
people make good scapegoats. No Hmong would ever dare blame Touby. He
was prestigious. But Ly Teck, that's another story.
In any event, my original post as well as this one is not to say Ly
Teck was guilty or not guilty for the shooting at Hinh Heup for I
don't think any of us can come to that conclusion without rigorious
research. Moreover, as someone who engages in this topic only as a
mental exercise (and not as a court), the question of guilt does not
intrigue me so much at this point in time since Ly Teck is long dead
and can never be held accountable now. So I discuss this only as an
exercise in historical inquiry. The only thing I was able to find out
about Ly Teck thus far was that he had a dream for the Hmong. That he
disagreed with the actions of VP because he felt that VP was leading
Hmong to the slaughterhouse, and that he had begun a program to try to
move the Hmong to the lowland and away from the theater of military
action. An article in the National Geographics in 1972 also said
pretty much the same thing about Ly Teck and his cattle business.
Ly Teck's vision aside, it probably goes without saying that Ly Teck
did have ambitions of his own, and had most probably actively worked
to undermine VP. In fact, I am willing to bet that it was precisely
because Ly Teck (as well as others of his family members) had actively
worked to undermine VP and, that fact, coupled with him going around
to persuade Hmong to return home at Hinh Heup itself, made him a
convenient scapegoat for the Hmong's suffering in the end. Ly Teck was
not powerful or prestigious enough for the Hmong to avoid blame, but
as an educated man just returned from the west with BA and MA degrees,
he was a threat to established Hmong leaders. He was a potential
rising leader. Unfortunately, his timing was all wrong and he turned
out just in time to be blamed for a tragedy begun by someone else. If
we look in our communities today, we see other scapegoats who Hmong
condemn as "communist" for no reason whatsoever. In light of these
blatant evidence in front of us, perhaps we can begin to understand Ly
Teck's situation and see it in three dimensional terms. Ly Teck's
situation was not a black and white one. Hmong scholars need to take a
multi-dimensional approach to study it. It does not take much brain to
render a simple guilty or innocent verdict and, historians who often
undergo rigorious and grueling training, do not just render a simple
verdict. In fact, they have to question even their sources for sources
have motives of their own to rewrite history in their own image.
-M
Tubpajtsab
> I was about couple KM from the shooting at Hinh Heup. We stop for a
> half day in the bus, and dicided to go back to Ban Souan. That aren't
> easy day for all hmong peolpe thsese day. We saw the dead and the
> wound being treat at hospital at Ban Souan. I have chance passed
> through Hinh Heup one week after the shooting. I believe the order of
> the shooting are from Ly Teck himself and associate Ly Tou and some
> other Ly. After the shooting Ly Teck were secure by Pathat Lao and
> than dispare ever since. his widow marry his cousin later on.
> Ly Teck was smart and very educate during that time. So far we know
> and heard rumor that VP scare and fear that Ly Teck and all the Ly
> will try to over throught VP. and take over the power. VP than order
> Ly Teck out of Long Chieng.
>
To all SCH,
I'm the real TubPajTsab , and I‘ll still being "The NoobPajTsab " for
ever and will never regret being Lyteck brother despite all the
negarive rumors running around for 29 years. Who ever choose to hate
my family go to hell and who ever choose to stay friends may god bring
peace and prosperity to them.
The Ly Tou your people mentioned in here is me = TubPajTsab. Do not
confuse me with my brother Lis Nploj's son Tou Ly. He was too young to
know.
My challenge to: Charlie, Ntsuab Xwm, hmong213 and Kentt06.
I have a friend very close to Ly Tou he tell us all. He said he even
> know their voice, don't have to look for their face.
> Ntsuabxwm
Now...If you want to deal with Lyteck's issue you are welcome to deal
straight with me in any which way you want. I'll let you make the
call.
Men gotta have balls, don't bark like "dev vwm". Show the audience
your true identity. I bet you know me well you might be old friends of
mine,friends never stabbed friends' back excepted crooks. You just
don't have the balls ( noob qes) right?
Txawm kuv lub neej, kuv yuav muaj koob muaj npes ntaus neeg los kuv
yeej tsis tau ntaus Hmoob ib zaug, zaum no yog thawj zaug uas kuv yuav
tau npuaj cov dev vwm qhov ncauj...
Nej txhob ntshais "Lyteck" npaum lis Hmoob ntshais "Tswv xyas" os yog
nej yuav ntshais mas nej ntshais cov NoobPajTsab uas tseem ciaj xwb
nawb. Hmoob muaj ib los hais tias tuag tu noob los tshuav tug nyob qab
roob, tuag tu tsav los tshuav tug nyob qab has. Nej ob peb tug nyuag
dev vwm ntawm nej sim lam tsa qhov muag saib thiab tig pob ntseg mloog
seb tsob noob no rab peev xwm loj hlob luaj li cas lawm?
Yog nej peb plaub tug nyuag dev vwm no tseem tsis kam face kuv thiab
ces cia li hu nej tias: cov tais caus Ts...maum aub laus xwb...
TubPajTsab.
Tou Ly
> half day in the bus, and dicided to go back to Ban Souan. That aren't
> easy day for all hmong peolpe thsese day. We saw the dead and the
> wound being treat at hospital at Ban Souan. I have chance passed
> through Hinh Heup one week after the shooting. I believe the order of
> the shooting are from Ly Teck himself and associate Ly Tou and some
> other Ly. After the shooting Ly Teck were secure by Pathat Lao and
> than dispare ever since. his widow marry his cousin later on.
> Ly Teck was smart and very educate during that time. So far we know
> and heard rumor that VP scare and fear that Ly Teck and all the Ly
> will try to over throught VP. and take over the power. VP than order
> Ly Teck out of Long Chieng.
> I have a friend very close to Ly Tou he tell us all. He said he even
> know their voice, don't have to look for their face.
>
> Ntsuabxwm
The idea that Ly Tou (Lyteck's younger brother) had any involvement in
the Hin Heup incident is just not true. He was just a young man at the
time. Yes, he was one of the young people, amongst many others, who
tried to pursuade the fleeing Hmong, but there was no malice on his
part. Many people personally know him and many can vouche for him. On
this note your source is very wrong. You can interview Ly Tou himself
if you want and I'm positive that you'll conclude he didn't have
anything to do with this affair. He currently resides in Sacramento,
CA.
More evidence and theory will be shown in another thread to give light
on the Lyteck and Hin Heup issue.
Tou Ly
YaMyyoufuYang
Tou:
Yes! I knew that you are Blong's son.I took my wife and two of my
children to visit your uncle Pao's family in Canada...just to say
"THANKS" eventhough I was one year too late.By the way, I did visit
Lytek's wife when I went back to Laos.
Tou Ly
considerable length that's why I haven't posted anything on the matter
yet. My plan is to shed light on his accomplishments, hopes and
dreams, his fall out with GVP, the speech at LongCheng and conclude
how he was later smeared for Hin Heup. Nowadays most people do not
have any idea what his positive goals are for the Hmong, but are only
registering him with the Hin Heup incident. The wound of the tragedy
is still bleeding red for a lot of people, therefore in accordance I
will temporarily stop and address this matter.
It's obvious there are skeptics in SCH and around the world who
strongly believe in Lyteck's guilt for the Hin Heup killings. Others
don't know the certainty and extent of his involvement, but insinuates
his greed and ambition getting the better of his judgement. In their
eyes those qualities render him in character of committing the
atrocity, hence you have fables and snide remarks here and there.
Notables who have written essays, talked on radio, or wrote poems
about Lyteck and Hin Heup are as follow:
1) Garry Lee Yia of Australia in one of his papers says to the effect
that Lyteck influenced the event. He later writes to Lyteck's older
brother, Nplooj, that he simply retold stories from his sources.
2) Lag Hawj from Milwaukee, WI in his "Tswm Yim" book writes that Lis
Teeb (Touby's Lyfoung's son) murdered all the people at Hin Heup. He
confuses the identities of Teeb PajTsab and Teeb LisFoom, unless he
really means the latter is the culpable one. And not all the people at
Hin Heup were killed. It's safe to say that Lag's book lacks critical
research.
3) Vaj Bis, the radio host(?) of "Hmoob Thooj Siab Koom Ntsws" in
Fresno, CA explains on August 1996 that the fall of the RLG/Laos is
attributable to Lyteck and that he ordered the killing at Hin Heup.
Anybody with reasonable knowledge knows the fall of Laos went beyond
Lyteck, Touby, Yang Dao, Vang Pao, or any one Hmong's control (or all
of them for this matter). On the issue of Hin Heup Vaj Bis didn't
reply to a telephone interview.
4) Yaj Vam sings a kwvtxhiaj that yawg hlob Teeb picks up a gun and
fires upon his own people.
The aforementioned people can be forgiven and their tales set aside
for they recieved information through questionable sources only. A
second group, however, bears to be first hand witnesses or have
interviewed first hand witnesses. They all use screen names to bring
forth their messages, but be as it may their stories cannot be
dismissed easily. Their recounts shed volumes on Lyteck's character
(or lack of) and the Hin Heup incident. Actually their evidences will
be used to dispell one another. And the other reason why I put them in
this second category is because they have interacted and directly
responded to me. These people are:
1) "BABYFALL" (a Hmong Tsab?) back in 1998 and 1999 says that he heard
Lyteck talk at LongCheng specifically wanting to dethrown GVP and
more. He also theorizes that Lyteck ordered the shooting, but he may
not have been present there. True to an extent Lyteck made a speech of
the sort at LongCheng, but the motive will later be elaborated for
clarification. Some people who don't know the whole story may
miscontrue the overall message for something sinister. And it's this
misunderstanding that has clouded their judgements making them believe
the speech, amongst other things, forbodes the incident at Hin Heup.
2)"Kammamhlub" (a Hmong Thoj?) on Oct, 1998, writes that his
informants said this, "one informant lamented that after the shooting
he returned to witness the scene and saw ponds upon ponds of bright
red blood, each barely being covered despite using five or six huge
palm leaves. It was beyond one's imagination..." His informant's
account is in contrast to NtxoovNab (Lyteck's older brother) and Touby
Lyfoung's assessment who investigated the matter just hours after it
occurred. They only saw sparse blood spots here and there. They
estimated the number of casualties to be in and about a dozen or so.
Kammamhlub's "ponds upon ponds of bright red blood" would indicate a
death toll in the hundreds, if not thousands. From what all of you
Hmong have heard, what do you really think the more accurate number
would be?
3) "NewAsianCafe," claims that on the rainy day of May 29, 1975 at the
Hin Heup bridge he sees Lyteck standing below the bridge holding a
gun. He loses a shoe as he scrambles for safety when bullets come
flying. His posting can no longer be found on SCH, but I'm positive
that many of you still remember his screen name. Furthermore, he goes
on to assert that Lyteck and the Lynhiavu family have the backing of
the Pathet Lao and are themselves communists. This is simply wrong.
There are some Hmong on this board, such as Dr Yang Dao and YaMyYoufu
Yang, among others, who know without a doubt that this belief is just
incorrect in every sense.
4) "Points-Love" is a poster from Hmongonline.com who adamantly
asserts that he sees Lyteck dressed in civilian outfit pacing back and
forth at the gate looking furious, then grabs a B40 (small rocket
launcher) and shoots towards the crowd. He is hit and either loses or
severly injures a leg. Four days later on June 2nd he and his family
escape to Nongkhai, Thailand and coincidently meets Lyteck there. He
automatically recognizes the culprit, or so he believes. The story
doesn't end there however. "Points-Love" is born in 1970. The incident
at Hin Heup occurs on May of 1975. The subraction leaves him at 5
years old. Can a 5 year old remember accurately the entire event
enough to know without a doubt that Lyteck is the shooter? Can he
remember faces? Thinking back to when I was 5-8 years old I can't
remember people, locations, or events well at all, especially a person
who I only saw for a few seconds. This is the case with all children's
memories, hence today's courts evaluate their testimonies with great
caution. I further asked him how he and his family are able to get
from Hin Heup to Nongkhai in such a short time and he didn't reply
back. Hin Heup to Nongkhai is at least 120 km. He would have to go
through several check points and a large river (Mekong) in order to
make it to Thailand. He even goes on to say that Yeej PajTsab
(Lyteck's brother) had wronged him at KM-52. Yeej was a full grown man
with several kids at the time. "Points-Love" was just a baby. Unless
Yeej spanked him on the bum for being a little brat how could a grown
man have "wronged" him?
Be it as it may, those are their stories. But now we have to
critically examine the evidence. Even though in of themselves some of
their stories and assertions are not true, we shall contrast them with
the other witnesses accounts to see the discrepencies.
Firstly, let's look at where some people and witnesses have Lyteck
standing and doing on or around the bridge. NewAsianCafe has Lyteck
standing at the bottom of the bridge holding a gun. Points-Love has
Lyteck pacing back and forth by the check point gate and uses a B40.
Yaj Vam just has Lyteck shooting a gun. The complication, confusion,
and inaccuracy are very obvious here. Lyteck cannot be at two or three
different places at one time doing several different things. So where
is Lyteck standing and what weapon is he holding for real then? If
Lyteck is at point A, then who is at point B or C?
Secondly, BABYFALL and Garry Lee Yia, as well as that of Vaj Bis just
have Lyteck influencing or ordering the soldiers to fire at the crowd.
Moobsib's (PaajDyarng) interview with many refugees/survivors has this
to say, "Thaus Hmoob tsi noog nwg lug ces nwg txhaj tso ncauj rua peeb
zeej Koomtshaas tua peb cov Hmoob." So here there is no indication
that Lyteck took up any sort of weapon to fire at all, but just orders
the soldiers to do so.
Lis Nplooj has it that Lyteck, Touby Lyfoung, and Lauj Foom PajNpliam
are with him at his house in KM-52 on May 29th, 1975. They did not
know of the shooting until the late morning when two young Hmong
students rushed to informed him and the others of what had transpired
at Hin Heup. Lyteck and Touby both jump in their own separate vehicles
and head toward the scene. However, shortly afterwards, about 30 min
or so, Lyteck returns to Nplooj's house and says that he's letting
Touby go ahead to investigate while he heads down to Vientiane to
inform the government of the news. And true enough within a few short
hours Lis NtxoovNab (Lyteck's older brother) and 9 vehicles carrying
food and medical aids went towards Hin Heup and BanXon.
I'm going to stop my essay here for now. I will display more evidence
and elaborate on them later. Besides, most people don't want to read
anything more than 2 pages long. I'm the same.
Tony
pheej los pab tsis tau li hmoob lub siab nyiam, tsis ntev tom qab ces
cov txawj mus cov txawj thiab hmoob mus hmoob lawm. Yog vim li cas?
Nkauj Hli hais tias nkim lub zog los pab hmoob. Maina hais tias los
kawm ntawm hmoob. Ua li es hmoob tsis txawj los lub zog nyob ua pab
ua pawg yuav loj dua li tej tub txawj ntxhais ntse tej zog los uake?
Hmoob tej tub txawj nthais ntse puas tau sau lub zog los ua ib pab ib
pawg mas?
Kuv xav hais tais, peb nyob lub ntuj Asmeslivkas no tej tub txawj
ntxhais ntse sau lub zog los ua ib pab ib pawg ntxhais yuav nyuaj heev
li. Hmoob tej tub ntxhais kawm ntawv tiav los yeej tos lajkam los
ntawm mainstream america xwb. Zoo li ntawd, hmoob tej tub txawj
ntxhais ntse yuav los pab tau hmoob zoo li cas? Qhov kuv pom es yuav
pab tau hmoob ces yog nej cov uas kawm tau Master thiab Ph D ua txoj
lw rau hmoob, ib hnub rub tau ib tug tub ntxhais hmoob tawm ntawm
hmoob mus rau mainstream america ces yeej zoo heev li lawm.
Kau xyoog dhau los no, cov tubntxhais uas nyob rau high school es tsis
mus ua laib, twb kawm tau lawv tej Master los yog pib lawv tej Ph D
lawm. Tej uas mus ua laib ces rov qab mus koom hmoob lawm xwb. Tej
tubntxhais uas mus kawm tau rau yav siab, twb tawm mus rau mainstream
america tas lawm thiab. Li kuv paub tus puav kuj tau haujlwm zoo
thiab tau nyiaj li $50,000.00 mus rau $70,000.00 tuaj ib xyoo. Cov
zoo li no puas los pab tau hmoob li hmoob lub siab nyiam? Lawv pab
tsis os. Lawv tsuas pab tau lawm tus kheej xwb. Yog yuav coj hmoob
mus rau mainstream america, lawv pab tau mas, vim yog lawm ua tau txoj
lw rau tus hmoob uas xav tawm tawm hmoob mus rau txoj kev hmoob nyiam
hais "tub txawj ntxhais ntse."
Tony,
Brandon Thao
told to us. We cannot take sides, or defend who against who, and draw
conclusions from it. Doing so would only render our literature
invalid. On a different note, I often ask myself why this Lyteck
Lynhiavue would be so despised by so many HMongs that he would be
blamed for the shooting at the Hin Heup Bridge, if he wasn't there?
Or, if he was so influential and possessed such a great character and
vision for the HMongs as a whole, why did and do so many HMongs
despised him? It would not make sense that the majority of the HMongs
would associate him with the Hin Heup incident, if he wasn't there and
had not actually ordered the shooting.
All the best,
Brandon
neohmong
Hmmmm...you are getting hot! I hope you can prove that the Hmong
were/are wrong on the Hin Heurp massacre.
NeoHmong
Tou...@Asianavenue.com (Tou Ly) wrote in message news:<e947f0e5.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Pao
But I love to read Ly Teck biography... so when it is ready, please let me know.
Are you going to include some of your family history in that book as well?
Pao
Tubpajtsab
Cha,
Kuv yog Tubpajtsab os, koj txhob poob siab txog tias tej no yog txim
tua neeg.
Dev vwm lam nqov ntuj xwb. Kuv nthe tib suab xwb ces pab nyuag dev vwm
twb ploj tag lawm tau 2 hnub no tsis tshwm li lawm.
Yog koj ntsib lawv thiab paub lawv no ces koj pab hais rau nyuag
charlie, nyuag ntsuab xwm, nyuag kentth06 etc...whoever pro vang
supremacy...hais tias txawj ob tug nyuag ntawv miskas xwb txhob khav
khav, yog lawv yog txiv neej yawg muaj noob qes thiab no kom lawv qhia
tseeb txog lawv cov npes cov xeem tej niam tej txiv tib yam li kuv
qhia kuv tus kheej rau saum SCH kom sawv daws paub xwb ces peb cia li
tab meeg sib rhuav thiab sib tsuav (debate in Hmoob style) kom kawg
rauv kwv tij neej tsa Hmoob thoob ntiaj teb tau paub qhov tseeb. Koj
hu nyuag Dr. Gary yia tim Australia tuaj lawv tog tib si twb tau
nad...Kuv kuj xav ntsib cov nyuag Dr. lum(dozen)ntawd thiab tiag.
Thaum ub noj peb tis qab dia yaig es niam no ho rov taw tuam ntuj.
Nyuag ntsej muag ntawd lam tau Phd xwb nws twb tsis mloog ob tog lus
saib qhov twg yog qhov tseeb li ne. Kuv xav mas yog nws tuaj tim
Mivkas no es tsis muaj nyiaj siv lawm ce lam sau ib qho article mus
dig VP's pocket xwb. This is a typical example that a hmong man always
be willing to sell his own follow for his survival. Life in Hmong
society never have a value. Another example is that the hmong in
general always force the poor hmong to sell his kids for his parents'
funeral at his sadness moment. Does anybody cres? Yog tsis muag tub
muag kiv mas lub rooj yeej tsis nqes li (Nej kum siv nqhis nqaij os?).
Yog muag no leej niam leej txiv pos sawv rov los nab?
Yas tag los mas peb tsev neeg Noobpajtsab uv los lawm 29 xyoos yeej
tsis kiaj khoob quav ntsej cov nyuag dev vwm no tej niag kas moos quav
dev li nad, tab sis co dev vwm no pheej nrauj tsis taus tseg tsis nyog
li nev...Koj kom lawv nco ntsoov tias npua twm tswb mas laj raws tau
noj no nawb.
Tsoom zeej tub txawg tub ntsev sawv daws awd...nej tuaj kawm txawj
kawm ntsev rau rooj teb no lawm nej txhob coj tus cooj pwm Hmoob lawm
nawb. Zoo li charlie dev vwm es lam khav tias yog scholar no tab sis
nws qhov muag mas ntsaws rawv nws ob ceg xwb yeej tsis pom ntuj kag
sab ub li.
Ua neeg nyob yog koj saib kuv rau nqi mas thiaj tsim nyog kuv saib koj
rau nqi thiab ( mutual respect).
Yog dhau 3 hnub tom ntej no es cov dev vwm tsis tsem lawm ces kuv yeej
tsis bother nej ntxiv lawm vim kuv tsis yog ib tug tub txawg tub ntse
li nej sawv daws. Kuv lub neej ces niaj hnub nyob luaj qoob luaj loo
xwb os, tsam puav lawv hu kuv hu ua niag Tub khib nyiab no.
Best regards,
Tubpajtsab.
IbVuag
I don't think your time is wasted at all spending with Hmong youths
today. You might not remember me (my name is not Yaj Li or IbVuag,
they're just alias), but I got the opportunity to meet you once at UC
Davis when you came to our 9th Annual Conference. You came to my
workshop and later we went to dinner together, and of course you paid
for it. The time that we spent together was worthwhile, every minute
of it. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversations and it has strengthened
my decision and confidence to further my education. The opportunity
to converse with you as individuals gave me a glimpse of myself, my
future, and the kind of person that I want to be. I hope with every
beat of my heart that you don't consider spending your time with Hmong
youths a waste of your time. If anything, I believe that Hmong
scholars and professionals don't spend enough time with their younger
counterparts. I can assure you that the courtesy and consideration
that you have shown me and others are not all for granted. I
remembered it well and I hope to share the same courtesy to others if
and when I am in a similar position as yours. Nyob zoo rau koj thiab
sib ntsib dua.
"Kao-Ly Yang" <ka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fRa7c.12809$pH4...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> Nyob zoo,
>
> Tau ntev lawm, kuv xav tuaj nrog nej sawv daws tham lawm ... Tab sis, kuv
> tseem twm me ntsis nej cov lus no. Tam si no, kuv paub zoo cov menyuam hmoob
> kawm ntawv siab me ntsis lawm thiab ... Kuv yeej pom hais tias lawv coj li
> cov loj zog lawm: xav koj lawm yog tawg tug tau xwb, tsis txawj sib txhawb
> zog li ... Lino, kuw tseem nco cov lus kuv nug Maina hais tias, ua cas Maina
> pheej nquag tuaj nrog cov neeg sawv daws tham ua luaj ... . Xyov puas hloov
> tau dab tsi hauv Hmoob lub siab zais siab thiab qhia dub rau nws tus kheej
> noj xwb; los sis rau nws lub xeem xwb ... . I am wondering if I have not
> wasted so much my time in supporting so much Hmong students ... in my poor
> position of unemployment position ... It is just a wonder in general .... .
> I am myself enough busy ... But poeple like Maina with some strong
> background, it will be a loss for her professional growth .. She did not
> yet publish something that will help her in the future .. all her energy
> here is just lost and sent to the wrong persons ...
>
> Nkauj Hli
>
>
> "M. M. Lee" <mlee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ea31c499.04032...@posting.google.com...
Tubpajtsab
>
> I will always respect your opinion and I have nothing against late Mr.
> Ly. I don't need to come up with any evidence, either. But I will
> tell you a Hmong fable called, "The Goatherd and the Goat."
>
> A Goatherd was one day gathering his flock to return to the fold, when
> one of his Goats strayed and refused to join the rest. He tried for a
> long time to get her to return by calling and whistling to her, but
> the Goat took no notice of him at all: so at last he threw a stone at
> her and broke one of her horns.
>
> In dismay, he begged her not to tell his master (the owner of the
> goat): but she replied, "You silly fellow, my horn would cry aloud
> even if I cut off my tongue."
>
> The point is: it's no use trying to hide what can't be hidden. Just
> go read Moobsib's thread. Now, the Hmong who was shot maybe a stubborn
> goat (which I don't doubt), but the herder (Mr. Ly Teck in this case)
> has no right to order the shot. Sorry! I over simplified!
>
> Charlie
Charlie,
Kuv yog Tubpajtsab, I will represent The Noobpajtsab's family, and I'm
looking for you since last couple days, where are you? I thought you
would accept my challenge man. Come on...accept it. This is your only
chance to humiliate me and my family.
Easy Rules: Identify yourself who you are, and may the dual begin.
Choose your best weapon. Talk to me now...Don't be coward if you think
you are though, show me your true face.
Advice to Charlie, bring your best advisers (whole gang) in case you
need help. But don't worry, if I win I'll pardon you, I'm a true
fighter with dignity. I promese you I won't attack you from behind.
At this point,I would like to ask aunty Mai Na, nephew Tou ly to step
aside. Don't worry about me I'll be O.K. Cov nyuag dev vwm no yeej
tsis leem cai, cia kuv mam nrog nws ntsuas zog xwb ces thiaj tag. Pos
chob yuav tsum muab pos dig thiaj tau.
Ps. After 3 days posting, this Challenge will be declared no contest
if the opponent (charlie)choose to decline. May the Noobpajtsab be
winner. And may charlie change his behavior.
Tubpajtsab.
Hmong213
li. Tos luag tej laus hais tias "Nplooj yoog kav es Noob yoog tsav" no yog koj
ntag. Koj hais koj cov lus rau peb hauv no mas twb tsis tsim nyog ib me nyuag
CENT liab li. Koj hais tias peb yog DEV VWM no sim muab peb cov lus los sib luj
zoo zoo saib leej twg thiaj li yog DEV VWM.
Koj sim muab koj cov evidence los saib hnub twg peb tuaj muab nej tsev neeg
Hmoob Paj Tsab cem rau qhov twg. Peb sawv daws hais no peb tsuas hais txog qhov
LY TECK tau ua los lawm xwb nas. Yog koj yuav hais LY TECK kuj ua tib zoo piav
zoo zoo rau sawv daws xwb. Tsis tsim nyog koj yuav hais li ub li no rau peb
sawv daws. Koj cov lus hais rau Dr. Ly Yias mas yog hais lus me nyuam yaus
thiab xwb nas.
Koj hais tias nej tsev Hmoob Lis ko zoo kawg no cas koj ho cem lawv tsev Hmoob
Vaj phem ua luaj thiab maj. Yog yus no hais tias lawv phem npaum li cas ces yus
no yeej phem npaum li lawv thiab. Koj nyuag Tub ntawm ko es twb tsis muaj As
Nav (power) npaum li thaum LY Teck es twg hais phem npaum li ko. Yog koj tseem
tau ntoo Ly Teck lub kaus mom thiab mas ntshai koj tseem yuav haj yam phem dua
Ly Teck thiab pauj.
Koj puas paub hais tias Lis Teeb phem rau Hmoob npaum li ntawd es nws thiaj li
mus tuag tsis muaj NTXAJ lawm no los. Koj tsis txhob hais lus saib tsis taus
peb li ntawm ko tsam ib chim koj yuav mus raws li Ly Teeb thiab os. Peb no yog
neeg thiab peb tsis yog DEV li koj hais nawb.
TSIS YOG LY TEEB TUA HMOOB NYOB HIN HEUP ES YOG DEV TUA LOS.
Koj xav hais tias peb tsis paub koj cov Noob Paj Tsab nyob California no los.
Peb paub lawv kawg nawb. Lawv tsis hais lus li koj hais ko, Zoo kawg luas mas
koj kwv koj ob yas txa nyob puag pem Canada ko xwb.
>Subject: Re: Ly Teck's Dream [Lis Teeb Txoj Kev Npau Suav]
>From: tubpa...@hotmail.com (Tubpajtsab)
>Date: 3/22/2004 5:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <38f565af.04032...@posting.google.com>
Brandon Thao
> To all SCH,
>
> I'm the real TubPajTsab , and I?ll still being "The NoobPajTsab " for
> ever and will never regret being Lyteck brother despite all the
> negarive rumors running around for 29 years. Who ever choose to hate
> my family go to hell and who ever choose to stay friends may god bring
> peace and prosperity to them.
> Txawm kuv lub neej, kuv yuav muaj koob muaj npes ntaus neeg los kuv
> yeej tsis tau ntaus Hmoob ib zaug, zaum no yog thawj zaug uas kuv yuav
> tau npuaj cov dev vwm qhov ncauj...
> TubPajTsab.
:-D Hahaha....Not to bullshit anyone, but, man, you people really
crack me up. LOL... Eb, TubPajTsab, what really happened anyway?
What did your brother do to the HMong people that caused them to hate
him and your family so much? that they would even associate him to the
incident at the Hin Heup Bridge, if he wasn't there, as you and other
Ly's in here try so desparately to correct? Sincere answer would be
most welcome.
Sincerely,
Brandon
XejThim
> My challenge to: Charlie, Ntsuab Xwm, hmong213 and Kentt06.
> straight with me in any which way you want. I'll let you make the
> call.
> Men gotta have balls, don't bark like "dev vwm". Show the audience
> your true identity. I bet you know me well you might be old friends of
> mine,friends never stabbed friends' back excepted crooks. You just
> don't have the balls ( noob qes) right?
I'm wondering where are the folks above? Why no one has the gut to
respond to this guy...if no one can take his challenge then I can
assume that many of your gossip talks about Mr. Ly Tek must merely
fabrications.
> Txawm kuv lub neej, kuv yuav muaj koob muaj npes ntaus neeg los kuv
> yeej tsis tau ntaus Hmoob ib zaug, zaum no yog thawj zaug uas kuv yuav
> tau npuaj cov dev vwm qhov ncauj...
> Yog nej peb plaub tug nyuag dev vwm no tseem tsis kam face kuv thiab
> ces cia li hu nej tias: cov tais caus Ts...maum aub laus xwb...
Hahaha....tsis yog nej ntshai Tou PajTsab cov lus no lawm lov? Txiv
neej yawg ib yam cas nej yuav tais caus ua luaj mas cov yawg. Txhob
lam tau lam tso tes khiav pos tw ntoob li ntawd yus mus txob txob
txhaum lawm yuav tau stand up to defend yus nqaj lus kom kawg meb. Nej
muaj tus puas twb tau General rank lawm yuav tsum tau show yus qhov
peev xwm thiab es tej thab ham thiaj li tso tau siab tias yus yuav
tsis muab luag tso pov tseg thaum muaj kev kub ntxhov no maj.
> Nej ob peb tug nyuag
> dev vwm ntawm nej sim lam tsa qhov muag saib thiab tig pob ntseg mloog
> seb tsob noob no rab peev xwm loj hlob luaj li cas lawm?
Tou, koj tsis txhob muab tej lus no coj los ua chaw ntsawv siab vim
tias kuv paub zoo tus puav cov neeg koj teev tseg saum toj no lawv
yeej tsis qualify yuav los piav txog koj tij laug tej teeb meem vim
lub sij hawm ntawd lawv tseem yog me nyuam yaus so ntswg tav toj xwb.
Tej tus nyaj yuav loj lawm tab sis kuv xav tias none of them yog cov
pom kiag ntawm qhov muag. Koj yeej paub lawm tias peb cov Hmoob yeej
muaj ib co nyiam muab qhov zoo twist mus hais ua qhov phem, hos muab
qhov yuav puam tsuaj ntxeev mus hais ua qhov zoo kom muaj neeg qaug
quav. Dhau li ntawd xwb los tseem muaj cov nyiam mloog qhov cuav tshaj
li qhov tseeb es thiaj li raug ib pab neeg muab tig mus mus los los.
Tej lus suav daws hais no los yeej nkag tib kis li xwb.
>
>
Yia Thao
well. Believe some and ignore some.
More Gossip:
Former Col. Neng Chue Thao orderd my father's troops to walk all night
long from his post to PhamKhaum to guard VP when he was unable to land
in Long Cheng. The Thao knew of the incident due to that one of the
Lee members who was/is close relatives to the Thao and simply spelled
it out to Former Col. Neng Chue and Former Mayor XovTxiab Thoj.
Former Col. Neng Chue and Former Mayor XovTxiab Thoj were both death
so no confirmation at hand, but my father and my uncle both still
alive. Perhaps, someday when time allow I will ask my uncle and my
father of the incident once more.
yia
Tou...@Asianavenue.com (Tou Ly) wrote in message news:<e947f0e5.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Ntsuabxwm
the shooting of Hinh Heup. If only one thing he should do. "Helping
the hmong". The head of the line of migrant hmong is just reach Hinh
Heup, the tail is till at Na Sou ( Ban Souan). The distance it about
10 or 20 mile long is full of people and animals, direction is
Vientiane the capital of lao. It about some 130 Km walk the Capital.
Ly Teck choose Hinh Heup to stop the hmong just because Hinh Heup have
a bridge across a river (Nam Lik) no where you can go, only through
the bridge of Nam Lik. When you pass Hinh Heup there were no point you
can stop the hmong they will richout Vientiane withim three to four
days of walk. If this Tou Ly is the one I knew, he was also there with
Ly Teck during that time. But he never have been charge so bad cause
he just an young hmong educator, he dispear there after. I never meet
him in the refugee camp. All the Pacha settle in Canada. Late 80s' I
met him in Kitchener, Canada. Pao was passed and Yong Na was also
passed, Yeej is also passed the Pacha dynasty is seem die down. When
you met one of these guy they are very sweet talking very fine to be
friend with, they are smart rich family, they have very beautiful
daughter.
Ntsuabxwm
wac...@hotmail.com (Brandon Thao) wrote in message news:<8445f4d6.04032...@posting.google.com>...
khejdub perdou
thiab lov? Neb lub boxing ring nyob qhov twg? Puas yog hauv SCH no los
yog yuav xuas dub tom tsev nad?
Khej.
wrote in message news:<38f565af.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Yia Thao
thiab ntshe kawg. Nws coj kuv wb mus hais plaub nyob rau hauv Veescam
mas cov nplog hauv ntshai nws tag li. Nws ua rau Nplog tsis pom qab
teb nws tag. Tej lus nws hais ntawd kuv yeej xav tsis txog li. Kuv
yeej xav hais tias thaum twg yog tsis muaj VP lawm no Ly Teck xwb mas
thiaj yuav los hloov tau VP qhov chaw. Ly Teck muaj lub siab hlub
Hmoob kawg li thiab."
Cov lus no yog ib co lus paj paws xwb. Thaum zoo caij es cov laus los
sib sau nyob ua ke tham txog lub neej qub qab mas lawv thiaj tham
txog. Yog yuav kom lawv cia li tham rau yus mloog lawv yeej laj cuab
zaj kawg vim lub neej qub qab yog qhov tshem tsis tau thiab yog zaj
muaj phem muaj zoo.
Thaum kuv hnov tej laus tham tag, thiaj ua rau kuv xav hais tias leej
tib neeg txawj pauv tiam sis yog hlub tib neeg Hmoob npaum li kuv txiv
hlob tham, thiab cov phooj ywg hauv no tham me ntshe qhov luag hais
tias Ly Teck tua Hin Heup no yeej tsis txaus ntseeg li. Txawm yuav
muaj sib txeeb nom npaum li cas los kev txov yus tsev neeg Hmoob ntshe
yuav tsis muaj li. Puas muaj leejtwg nyob kiag ntawd es pom kiag los
yog peb hnov luag qhov ncauj ua zog xwb?
Tej laus hais tias yav tas los ces cia ua kev kawm. Nej tej hluas
niam no txhob ua li yav tas los xwb. Leej hlob txawj hlub leej yaus,
leej yaus kom mloog tus hlob hais. Es muaj yeem npaj rau lub neej
yuav tuaj.
Tej laus yeej hais tias nyob rau lub neej ntawd, yog tsis muaj kwv tij
coob ces txhob ua nom, tsam yus raug phom.
Ib tug hais rau kuv hais tias lub neeg tag los peb kho tsis tau tiam
sis lub neej yuav tuaj peb thaiv kho tau. Yog yuav hais txog Hmoob
qub nom ces yeej muaj qhov zoo-o thiab muaj qhov phem-m kawg. Cia peb
muab qhov zoo hais xwb es thiaj mob siab npaj neej.
Nco ntsoov PEB YOG IB.
Yias
Tou...@Asianavenue.com (Tou Ly) wrote in message news:<e947f0e5.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tubpajtsab
Brandon,
Don't say that(Ly's in here try so desparately to correct? ) We never
try respond this political fabrication for nearly 29 years. I already
ask Mai Na and Tou Ly my nephew to step aside. We The Noobpajtsab just
try to move on our life in this country.
If you, really, are interested in that truth then email me at:
tubpa...@hotmail.com
I just don't want to defend anything that is just fabrication.
Tubpajtsab
ceeb_v
Let me identify you to Tubpajtsab. You are Charlie Xiong, son of
former Major Neej Saub Xyooj in Michigan. Now that the door opens for
you and Tubpajtsab, we will step aside and watch both of you.
Charlie, go for it. Hmoob ib txwm yeej hais tseg lawm tias, "noj tsi
taus yuav tuag, hais tsi taus yuav swb". Sijhawm txog lawm laiv.
Ceeb-V
tubpa...@hotmail.com (Tubpajtsab) wrote in message news:<38f565af.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Charlie
Of all our SCH colleaques, you chose to single me out for a debate on
late Mr. Ly, Tek. As a wiseman would say, "many in service is met
with ingratitude and those who play jokes on others must expect them
in return." Here I am, "ncauj hlob ces tau kua 'Tubpajtsab' haus."
Let me be frank with you. I was neither a friend or a foe to you and
yours except I have a very dear cousin who is now married to one of
your next of kins. She hasn't been murdered yet! I'm joking, ok? I
do not believe you and I have ever met. I was merely a child when the
Hin Heup incident took place. Who knows what the truth was behind the
massacre? It was a time of war; maybe Mr. Ly was fabricated. It could
be a plot planned by the LPDR. I was merely reacting to rumors,
chantings, and stories like the man "Moobsib" had mentioned in his
thread. Like all truth, there're always two sides. I respect you for
coming out to defend your deceased relative. Maybe it is now a good
time to dwell on the good side of Mr. Ly; I bet people are eager to
read about his biography when it becomes available.
Like I said to your Auntie (or so you called) Mai Nas, a man's great
deeds do not go unrewarded. Perhaps if you could tell us what actually
happened and why he was to blame, we would have a better
understanding. After all, no one would know Mr. Ly, Tek more than his
own next of kin, right? But be persuasive, not
using coercive and derogatory words like "noob qes or balls" and "Ts.?
maumdev laus." Anger and frustration only counteracts something
injurious. Such words, believe me (I used them, too), are exclusively
reserved for us men when we are having a private feast (noj nqaij haus
cawd). We can't use them in front of tej muam txim txiaj ntsuav li
Maiv Nas thiab Dr. Kao Ly lawd cov no. Unless, of course, they signal
the green light.
I'm curious as to why you singled me out for this topic. Am I that
important or just plain annoying or both? Either way, I think you've
misinterpreted my fable.
Charlie
tubpa...@hotmail.com (Tubpajtsab) wrote in message news:<38f565af.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Charlie
Yawg Nyajlaj laus! Koj nyob twj ywm tsam ces kuv txawb pobzeb rau koj
kub lov ces kuv plaub ho hais tsis tag thiab os....
Charlie
Xej...@yahoo.com (XejThim) wrote in message news:<4133ef88.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Moobsib
If I were to put my feet in your shoes I can understand your feeling.
Li hais ntawd, peb cov tau ntsib thiab tau hnov Lis Teeb Pajtsab tham
mas nws yog ib tus neeg zoo ncauj zoo lus heev. Yeej xav tsi txog tias
tus neeg thoobtsib thiab muaj txuj siab li nws yuav mus ntaus thawj ua
tej yam zoo li ntawd rau yus ib tsoom Hmoob. Tawm sis cov Hmoob uas
raug tua ntawd coob leej ntau tus tau thoj nam tuaj txog teb chaws no
tib si. Paub tseeb lawm tias peb Hmoob yeej lawv kua (hnov luag hais
ces hais) tawm sis yog muaj cov uas raug mob li kuv hais ntawd ua tim
khawv khov kho ces yog ib yam ua rau yus xav nyuaj. Ib qho ntxiv mas
peb yeej ntsib los dua lawm tias lwm haiv neeg yeej ib txwm muab peb
siv los txais/lees tej yam phem li ntawd. Just a thought.
regard,
ms
Moobsib
uas to taub txog Lis Teeb Pajtsab mas tsi txog txij twg tawm sis ib
zej tsoom Hmoob uas pom nws the other way mas txawv loj heev. Yog nej
cov xeebleej xeebntxwv Pajtsab txhab ntxiv mas kuv ntseeg tias ntau
yam yuav tshwm tuaj rau peb sawv daws digest.
Movtshua,
ms
SIDNIE
Thaum yuav tau ntsej muag ces nqus tej zoj tsis khuv sim yus lub zog
los huas lub npe nrov. Thaum zog daug, npe qaug lawm no ho xav hais
tias nkim sijhawm thiab dag zog....
Neeg txawj ntse yeej tsis khuv sim lub zog. Yeem pub mas tsuas yim
muaj zog xwb. Yog xav tau hais tias nkim zog rau lub sijhawm no lawm
no koj daim npov tsis muaj nuj nqis kiag.
Nco ntsoov tias tos luag lwm tus tau muab hlob rau yus pom lo yus yeej
ua thaj loj hlob rau luag ntsia lawm thiab.
Txhob maj khuv sim qhov yus cev rau cov tsis pom kev mog.
Tubpajtsab
Brandon and all SCH,
My challenge will meet its deadline in about 5 hrs from now, it will
be up to you to judge who is willing to tell the truth and who just
are the bunch of propaganda mouth pieces. After that, you may not hear
from me anymore.
Brandon, you seem to be eager to know the truth but I can not assume
myself or my brother clean unless you urge those guys to accept my
challenge, b'cause guilty or not guilty can not be " haus dej dab". I
want them to prosecute me in person and let the SCH be the juries, is
that fair?.
Something bothers me a little is as following:
you and other> Ly's in here try so desparately to correct?
Can you take it back, please, I never intend so desperately to
correct. I personally ask aunty MaiNa and nephew Tou Ly to step aside.
The reason I'm here b'cause some mad dogs are barking the wrong tree.
You want to see an example? Look at this:
Koj xav hais tias peb tsis paub koj cov Noob Paj Tsab nyob California
no los.
Peb paub lawv kawg nawb. Lawv tsis hais lus li koj hais ko, Zoo kawg
luas mas
koj kwv koj ob yas txa nyob puag pem Canada ko xwb.
Hmong213 (hmon...@aol.com)
Man...! Hmong213 kuv 2 yag txha nyob nram Sacramento, CA os yawg. Tos
kuv hu koj ua niag dev vwm no los koj pheej plam ntxhiab li ko ntag...
Ua zoo koj tus tswv tsis pub qhauv koj noj od.
Brandon look at this again:
I have a friend very close to Ly Tou he tell us all. He said he even
know their voice, don't have to look for their face.
Ntsuabxwm
Clearly he din't know me, just a friend of his that knew me, right?
now look at next posting:
If this Tou Ly is the one I knew, he was also there with
> Ly Teck during that time. But he never have been charge so bad cause
> he just an young hmong educator, he dispear there after.
All the Pacha settle in Canada. Late 80s' I
> met him in Kitchener, Canada. Pao was passed and Yong Na was also
> passed, Yeej is also passed the Pacha dynasty is seem die down. When
> you met one of these guy they are very sweet talking very fine to be
> friend with, they are smart rich family, they have very beautiful
> daughter.
Ntsuabxwm
Nooow...He appears to know me. He even visit me in Kitchener,
Ontario,Canada.
I bet he might be one of my guest, slept in my house. Is he friend or
foe? Tell me brandon. Lus hmoob hais tias: noj mov hauv tsu tso quav
hau yias.
What in the world he has to pay me visit? Yog ntxub npaum li mas tso
quav twb tsis tig xub tw mas thiaj yog pob...?
Charlie, I think I know you, but you just double faces right? If I'm
not mistaken, we may have "ua 5 kaug" a few time. And we might be
txheeb txheeb dawb paug too. Nce qib nce ntaiv lawm txhob lam hais lus
saib tsis tau pej xeem mas mog yawg hlob world leader awd.
Khejdub....amigo, what make you think that I want to go back to
LongCheng time. I'm too old to chase girls around from coffe table to
coffee table, from taj laj kub hnyiab to tshav nyoob hoom tshiab.
I never want to boxe these guys they don't match me anyway, I just
want to ua rog quab ncaug saum SCH no rau nej saib xwb os.
Brandon, to make it short, If you really want to know the truth and
whole truth, just wait to read Tou Ly's book ( my nephew). I don't
know what he is up to ?
This may be my last posting unless....
Tubpajtsab.
tobewitty
motivation can only move when there are dream, success only achieve
when you are at peak and only good words get out at that time. after
this, figure out yourself the rest. life never faire. faireness always
been hijack by faith. and faith, of course sometime can be dertemine
by attitude, but faith can never be challenge.
Tubpajtsab
> Charlie,
>
> Let me identify you to Tubpajtsab. You are Charlie Xiong, son of
> former Major Neej Saub Xyooj in Michigan. Now that the door opens for
> you and Tubpajtsab, we will step aside and watch both of you.
>
> Charlie, go for it. Hmoob ib txwm yeej hais tseg lawm tias, "noj tsi
> taus yuav tuag, hais tsi taus yuav swb". Sijhawm txog lawm laiv.
>
> Ceeb-V
with my imminent neej tsa, we almost become tsa nees instead. I owe
you one Ceeb, hopefully I'll pay you back some day. A bud light o.k?
When I see your posting, I call my wife to witnesses your information.
I try to calm myself down for a minute...Now, I'm O.K....Sorry folks
the fight is being canceled.
To my nephew charlie,
Yog muaj tseeb li Ceeb-V hais mas, you're too young to match that
fight, give up boy. You denie knowing me and meeting me, but the day
my brother NtxoovNab passed away, your family did come to pay respect
to my brother days and nights, including hnub sam sab. You may be the
one that come with your dad.
That last day your family ntim ib pob su rau wb ob niam txiv vim wb
maj rov los CA. Qhov nej tuaj pab peb ntaiv hnub ntaiv hmo no tej zaum
nej tsis xav ntawm kev zej kev zos los nej twb xa ntawm kev neej kev
tsav, ntawm nej tej phauj ib qho ntxiv ib qho thiab.
Me tub charlie koj txhob twv kuv lawm mog, koj txiv twb txawj txawj
txiv xaiv koj mus nug nws saib los lus tom ntej no txhais li cas?
"Muaj zoo txheej txam txhob coj mus sim zeb". Yog koj tseem single no
tuaj tsob noob tshw es wb mam sib zeem dua nawb, but you gotta be good
cov noobpajtsab nyaum nyaum li od.
I always have a self dicipline: Never fight a family and a fellow
Hmong.
Last, before I disappear from SCH, I would like to give you 2 advices:
1-Peb tsev neeg twb tso tej kev npau suav (Fantesia) tseg puag thaum
ntxov ub lawm awb... Tsam no ces peb twb nce tsag saib lawm xwb os...
It is just an illusion, my dear. Tav no muaj tej pab pawg mam nyuam
qhuav nkag nuj nuag puuuuuaaaag nram kwj ha aw....ex. kuv dablaug
Ntxoov Yeeb Xyooj nyob Sacto, ze ze kuv no, thaum tseem muaj txoj sia
nyob kuj mob siab ua txoj laj kam uas koj tseem tab tom npau suav no
thiab tiag. Tab sis thaum yawg tas sim neej lawm ces cov kwv tij sawv
daws npaj ib tsum mov thiab ib lub chaw loj looooj tos luag tej nom
tej tsw, twb tsis pub peb txav ze nyob tsam...? Peb ces tsuas khua lis
fais zov rooj phaib thiab ua ib nyuag hauv qhua xwb tab sis hnub ntawd
tuaj tsis raws li siab xav thiab. It is so sad...Your dad tuaj sawv
qab nteeg ntag swb.
2-Wake up boy, be serious, get a job and move on your life, me nyuam
quaj zig qees yuav noj yuav haus os...Tej yam koj pheej yuav tshawb
saib Lyteck pos tau tua neeg nyob Hinh Heup ntawd ces kuv nug koj
tias, koj pos taus pom dua dev sib tog ib zaug nab, me tub? Yog koj
tsis tau pom no ces yog koj tseem hluas hwv tiag. Tej laus ib txwm
tias txawj ces laus paub ces tuag no os me tub e...
Kuv qhia koj ov... koj coj ib pab aub mus txog tom luag zos mas luag
cov yuav tuaj tom koj cov. Ces koj ib tug tuaj hauv qab lawm ces tag
hnro sawv daws ngig ngaug rau tus tuaj hauv xwb tiag. I hope you get
what I mean, I don't need to prove that a well educated from western
country like my brother Lyteck can do such thing. And I hope you won't
be the fallen one like him. Another good ex. Look at TsabKim Xyooj
how loyal he was? Have you ever thought that your turn might be near?
If that time comes, don't forget your yawg laus, I'll be there for
you.
I'll never challenge you again, promese.
Tubpajtsab.
tobewitty
> interviewed Ly Teck personally in the 1970s, that Ly Teck had big
> dreams for the Hmong.
including you and I and the new kids on the block (presumably new
arrival from Thamklabork). Otherwise we wouldn't waste our time
learning English (for you) Hmonglish (for me) and come here to talk
nonsense (me talk) and good sense (you talk) day in day out. The
difference is that why some people getting so much for so little
effort. It is timing my dear, they get in the right time in the right
place.
Here are the timing that we need to retrack the great Hmong
generations personalities and their contributions in Laos that make
the Hmong name known and written into the world history book. (this is
my words abstract from your hard working of mounths and years of
research that you published in SHC, my sweety M&M).
1 - the Lyfong and Yang Menou.
2 - the Touby, Tougeu, Toulia Lyfong and Vang Pao.
3 - the Yang Dao and Ly Teck.
(of course there are many other, but those people are not live long
enough to be recognize by us)
each generation come with their own perspective, and philosophe in
dealing with the situations that change the political landscape in
Laos. The golden generation could be the TB and VP. I am not doubt
that YD and LT has their own dream of transforming the Hmong into a
new phase from a warrior and councilor era (lead by VP and TB) to an
educated and industrialized. The same as TB and VP had transform the
Hmong from a faithful loyalist hill-tribe chieftain to the French
(lead by Yang Menou and Lyfong) into a reliable warrior and councilor
to the Royal Lao government and the CIA.
Too bad that YD and LT has no chance to implement their dreams and
their skills.
Why we choose to talk about the bad things? Since there are so much of
good things to talk about. The good things are the lost dreams of
course.
Actually, I think that there are not and were not any conflict between
DYD and VP, and TB and VP or VP and LT. Don't believe me? Just check
on the "Kev Neej Kev Tsav" of these families ties. Yes I must affirm
again that this is the beauty of the XEEM system. All of these fuzze
is we, the one who coundn't understand the political game that they
play, make a big deal of it. As any big family who has diverse
personality and skill, at times there would be some misunderstand due
to communication difficulty and work overlap, but I never see this as
a break-up point. What I have conclude, I see that these Hmong icons
always work as a team (by plan or not I have no idea) and maintian a
mutual respect to each other when come in face to face. I hardly see
the younger generation do so.
The Hinheuk incident, was an unfortunate events to the Hmong. Ly Teck,
is not to blame. It was an chaos and unpredictable situation, anyone
can do anything at anytime. Anyone get in the place in that time could
easily be frame or blame for, especialy from the Hmong people, who
never expect and accept bad thing to happen from the presense of
another Hmong who they could look up to. By show-up at Hinheuk check
point at that time, Ly Teck may know this very well, as any leader to
be, he may know that this is his pasing or breaking point too.
Many of you, kins of Ly Teck, did come here (SCH) to defend this
rumor, it would make you feel good but will do you no good, like Dr.
Pao said. Why stir more dust? We know how the Hmong are.
Any of you know, who is the commanding on the Hinheuk post that day?
what unit and how many soldier were there? I am sure there would have
some of the soldier garding that post alive today. The truth is on
these soldiers hand not in the Hmong mouths.
XejThim
explain txog koj qhov position rau TubPajTsab paub meej hais tias koj
yog leej twg thiab plov meej txog tej lus koj tau hnov xwb, txhob chim
chim os. Kuv mloog mas thaum TubPajTsab tuav txog koj lub npe, koj
cias li qhaws qhov ncauj teb tsis tau lawm es kuv thiaj li xav tias
yaiv...tus Charlie no kuv ib txwm paub nws tsis tais caum npaum no nas
cas nws yuav cia li qhaws qhov ncauj teb tsis taus ib los li ne no
xwb. Txawm koj yuav txawb pob zeb rau kuv los kawg raug mob xwb, thaum
muaj zoo caij wb sib ntsib kuv mam li rub koj los txhaus cawv dawb
xwb...oh, yog hais txog zaj no mas ntshai kuv yuav swb koj laus.
charli...@yahoo.com (Charlie) wrote in message news:<bd1cd63a.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Kao-Ly
Koj yuav tau rau rau siab sau koj phau PhD kom tiav. People do not
know (Yet) to nurture you ... . Do not waste your time, and I repeat
again -in public so that it will benefit many of you here in soc.
culture.hmong. Do not waste your time to save the Hmong people or help
them if you do not help yourself first.
fOR the guy or the girl who wrote this below message; I advise you to
help a little bit more Hmong people before writing such a thing. Tej
zaum koj ntshaw tau ntsej muag heev vob, tos koj qhia lino rau peb
paub ... . Txhob khib mas, mus pab hmoob ces koj yeej tau ntsej muag
thiab. Kev tau ntsev muag no, tsuas yog cov neeg TXAWJ pab thiab tau
... Maybe you are the kind of people who do not have the courage but
only the desir so that you are a sure candidate to hypertension and
diabetes ... Be careful of you wish.
Nyob zoo rau nej sawv daws ... . I only gave a public to Maina. She
already knows that I used to push her not to participate to
soc.culture. hmong because I think it is important for a female PhD to
tell that to another female woman. You guys in this forum takes it
well, and learnt something about how to nurture others ... it is fine.
If some of you do not know or already achieved whatever you need, and
have so much time to discuss here in this forum, it is your business
.. But for Maina, she is still student and doesn't have job: I
SUGGESST TO ALL OF YOU (incluidng people like to guy or girl below) TO
BUY IB HNAB TXHUV OR SEND MONEY TO MAINA IN SUPPORTING HER WRITING OF
HER PHD? WHAT DO YOU THINK ... The people who are writing aphd do not
have time to work and do not have money at all ... MAKE A GENEROUS
GESTE TO HER ... Instead of saying this or that ... . I know myself ..
this is the most important. But I also know Hmong very good as well
... .
Have you ever think that you think wrong????
Nkauj Hli
XID...@HOTMAIL.COM (SIDNIE) wrote in message news:<7b6f6b6.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Moobsib
ms
Tubpajtsab
Hmoobsib, Yia, Xejthim, SibTham, Brandon, Pov, Pao and all SCH,
Thank you all for your concerns, I woke up at 6:00AM to check If any
mad dogs show up. None. Nada. Zero....So you know what happen next.
Can my brother Lytck and me go free? Yes or No? I don't want to vote
for myself.
This would be my last posting, I'm done, I'm gone, you won't see me in
SCH here again. If you still not convinced, YajChoj already put up the
great news about NTR...which is approved by the general, pretty soon
those mad dogs will represent amnesty international for human rights(
whatsoever)and will have chance to search the so call "genocide site"
at Hinh Heup. Hurry up guys, mus cuv npes tsawg tsuag tsam luag lwm
pab xub mus cuv ces xub tau thawj kuab nyiaj lawm os. Ua cas news twb
tawm tav nov es tseem yuav nkuj nki hauv SCH no thiab laub...qeeb ua
luaj tiag.
To Dr. Pao,
Glad to see you, do you mind if I ask you a question?
Why this time, in my thread,your posting bears no title? I often see
you with Dr. I'm just curious. Any way I'll tell you a story of mine.
Not so long ago, an ex-friend(Dr. degree) of mine told me to go get
some sort of degrees in order to be able to enroll in hmong high
society. Tsis li ces nej thiab peb yuav nrug deb zuj zus...Kuv seev
seev rau kuv poj niam tias...Eb koj niad..cas dej ntws tau es dej ntw
zuj zus lawm thiab neb...Tsam puas kuv pom cov niag SPAMS nyob hau
internet hais tias them nyiaj ces tau Dr. yooj yim mas kuv twb yuav
luag...yuav luag click O.K tiag os koj yawg.
My friend, what do you have to be affraid of? Put up your title man,
walk high head. Remember that, we all are born equal. With me nothing
gonna hurt you.
About my brother Lyteck I just whish him to rest in peace. You gotta
have a firmed believe that the truth will always stay the truth,
someday, somehow it'll
immerge. Just the matter of time. I'm sure that all my family believe
in brother Lyteck's innocence. We stood with him side by side, muaj
noj muaj haus peb tseem nco ntsoov hus txog nws. Now we just
concentrate on the "peace of mind" Amidhabhud... Critical moment like
this, it is hard to find true friends, but in the meantime it give you
chance to see real foes. That what make us so strong. Nous some come
Les intouchables dans "miserables". I call it seeing thing in the
dark. ex. at first Ntsuab Xwm pretend not to know me at all. But later
he admited knowing me from Laos, and even visited me at Kitchener,
Ontario, CANADA. I believe he slept in my house and drank labatt blue
togethers with brother Pao. Hmong people from U.S never skeep my house
and brother Pos's house, we were next to each other. What do you think
about Ntsuab Xwm? Friend or Foe? I forgive you Ntsuab Xwm, I know that
bad political winds make you say that, you're not the first one to
stabbed in my back. I'll survive, don't worry.
Same to charlie, I, intentionally, forgave him too, just due to family
tie(nothing to be ashamed of, cov nom looj ceeb twb rub phav phuaj loj
kawg li nej piav hauv col. Sao Ly no ni? yus neej yus tsav yus tsis ib
nyuag pab thiab las as zoo dua mus ntxias los rau luag tej hlais nyoos
nyoos li nej piav piav, niam no peb ntse zog lawm yuav tau txhob ua li
qub lawm thiab, neej tsa yog neej tsa txhob lam tig ua tsa nees.
Somehow, he don't match me at all, too beginner. His best weapon is
piece together fable after fable. I got too many weapons (maib tais).
Kuv nyuam qhuav ib nyuag nthe xwb twb khiav nkag qab txag tag li no es
yuav ua cas thiaj match kuv mas cov yawg, Twb tseem yog npawg Ceeb-v
pab es thiaj cawm tau. Nej saib kuv lam tshum (jab) "charlie vaj" xwb
mas yawg twb dhia cuag qaib mag qws lawm. Cov neeg no tsis kam kiav
xeem kiag thiab laiv. Qaib tsis kej xuab mas tsis zoo twv nyiaj ntau
nawb cov kwv tij Detroit nas. Tos thaum twg kuv tuaj txog peb mam tib
tsaug ua tsib kaug xwb thiaj yog kev neej kev tsav.
Khejdub,
You see, no fight!!!Why were you so scared? Lawv cov qaib tu phiv es
haw quav tag lawm. Lwm zaus mam ntaus dua yuad KhejDub? ua siab ntev
tos nawb.
Dr.Pao I have millions of things to tell you, but time is running
short, one last thing I want to let you know is that Kub yeej xeeb
txawm los yog kub, txawm yuav pov rau qhov quav qhov zis, txawm yuav
khob yuav ncaws, yuav hlawv yuav ntswj los yim txhuam yim tshiab yim
tshiav yim ci xwb, it take me 29 yrs to realise this fact, we will
come out winner without a fight at all. These mad dogs are getting
confused. Sooner or later they'll desert their own post. ex. one
of these mad dogs said peb paub koj cov kuv tij nram CA zoo, lawv tsis
hais lus phem li kod. Zoo kawg uas koj kwv koj ob yag txha tuaj tim
CANADA ko. Dr. Pao you tell me kuv kwv kuv ob yag txha dua twg lawm?
Yog nws twb qhuas tias cov nyob CA zoo no, ua li kuv pos included hauv
nab? Ntsuab Xwm hais tias the Pacha dynasty is dieing down? is that
true? Does this guy really know who we are? You see? no match!!! tos
kuv pheej tias dev tom dab.
Aunty Mai Na, thank you for your patience. You can come back in here
now.
Hope to see you in person, Kuv pheej mus xawb khib nyiab xwb es kuv
twb tsis paub koj yog leej twg tiag?
Tou Ly my nephew,
I'm sure that you are my brother's son, I can smell it and I'm proud
of you. But are you AIB Tau or AIB Ntug? You know? Julie is a real
fighter too. I like your cool style. Keep up the good job boy. Luag
tej sib tw mus yuav degree los dai tim phab ntsa thiab dai ntawm hauv
pliaj li Dr. Gary Yias lis lawv. Tab sis kuv tub nej mus kawm tau no
ces tso twj ywm nruab siab xwb mog.
HmoobSib,Yias, Xej thim, SibTham, Pov...
Khuv xim kuv xav nrog nej tham make new friends kawg tab sis kuv twb
promese lawm tias: Kuv mus kuv tsis tuaj lawm ces nej cov scholars
sawv daws mam nyob mam tham ov… Nco ntsoov dev vwm tom tom nej thaum
twg no ho txheev txog kuv npe nawb. I'll be there for you guys. Kuv
tos tos thaum twg cov niag SPAMS rov tshwm tuaj no kuv mam ua ib siab
click O.K saib pos qualify rov tuaj nrog nej tham.
Bye...I'm gone...
Tubpajtsab.
Ntsuabxwm
yuav swb Tou Ly thiab, cov dab neeg no yeej muaj tseeb thiaj hais.
Tsis yog xa liam cov hnoob Paj Tsa ua yog cov tsis zoo rau peb hmoob
thaum lub caij hmoob thojnam. Thaum Hinh Heup tas Phateb Lao tau coj
Ly Teck mus Re-educational Camp. Coj Phanha Tou Bee Ly Fong mus ib
yam. Nkawv yog ob tus hmoob los stop cov hmoob thojnam nyob Ban Souan.
Hmoob kuj tau ntus aub ncaug rau yawg Phanha nyob ntawm lub Tajlaj Ban
Souan. Ly Tou yuav tsi muaj txim rau koj, tiam si koj yeej paub txog
zaj no, koj ua tu tsi kam paub xwb. Thaum ntawd neej yeej looj ntsej
muag tib si, cov plog tsi kam tuas cov hmoob yog cov mus txeeb kiag
rab pom machine gun los tua, cov hmoob tu mus yuav txog tus nrab choj.
Mai N. muaj ib tug poj niam hmoob raug ib phab ceg lov xwb, tej zaum
tseem ciaj tseem tsi tau tuag, yog interview nwg mas yuav paub tseeb
heev.
ntsuabxwm
paajd...@yahoo.com (Moobsib) wrote in message news:<818ff16c.04032...@posting.google.com>...
ntxubhmoob
Ua cas koj khav heej ua luaj(zoo li twb yuav muab Charlie noj nyoos)
na has thaum koj paub tias Charlie txheeb ze koj lawm mas koj ho cia
li tso twj ywm tseg lawm maj? Why?
neohmong
Tsis tsim nyog qhov koj dhia dhia rau peb sawv daws pom kiag li lau,
txog kawg koj cia li los tsa cij dawb li no. Yog yuav hais mas tim
Ceeb Vaj xwb, yog Ceeb tsis txhob raws maj qhia Tsav Lis, nyuam Neej
Saub Xyooj rau koj no tej zaum koj tseem yuav dhia pob peb phlaw ntxiv
thiab nad.
Ua li tej laus hais, tsam no "Tubpajtsab peev sam los Charlie tsis
peev xyuam, Charlie kuam laij los Tubpajtsab tsis kuam pav, hos
Tubpajtsab ua nyuj tuaj los Charlie tsis ua nees tos" lawm. Nyaj sawv
daws yuav to taub tias neb tsis xav kom neb ib leeg twg quav ciab ho
nti. Tsam no neb tshaiv roj los roj tsis nyob roj chaw tshais neev
los neev tsis nyob neev lw.
Txawm li cas los xij, Tsav Lis neb muaj neb chaw sib ntsuab (koj qaib
pw kuv cooj, kuv os pw koj nkuag) lawm ces lub ncauj tswv tswm lub
ntswg hais tsis nyog lo twg lawm. Qhov no txhais tau hais tias nej ob
tog nyias zoo nyias siab lawm ces niam lus tsuas taus li.
NeoHmong
neohmong
Luag tej laus hais tias "tsev vuas tsis zoo sim zeb tsev qeeb tsis zoo
sim taws" cas Tabpajtsab thiab Charlie lawv sim zeb los tsev vuas tsis
nrov hos sim taws los tsev qeeb tsis cig li...hahahahaha...thov txim
nawb Maiv Nas thiab Nkauj Hli, tej laus twb piv lus tias "poj niam tso
zis ua ruam ris hais lus tsis kav peb tag kis, hos txiv neej tso zis
tuav qau rawv hais lus tom hniav nkawv" cas Tubpajtsab twv npav "Ps.
After 3 days posting, this Challenge will be declared no contest if
the opponent (charlie)choose to decline. May the Noobpajtsab be
winner. And may charlie change his behavior." Nws nyuam qhuav yog 2
hnub xwb yawg twb tsa tes tsa taw lawm....hahahaha..txuas luag ua luaj
li...zaum no peb thiaj pom tias txiv neej tso zis tuav qau raws los
hais lus tsis tom hniav nkawv...hahahahaha...I guess Charlie is the _
_ _ _ _ _.
Vuag! muab hais dhau nom ntsim lawm...Xejthim, wb txhob ncauj ntau
ntau tsam tau kua haus.
NeoHmong
ceeb_v
Glad to hear that you two are neej tsa. It is important in our
culture that we respect each other and you've shown that.
Charlie is an energetic young man with lots of potential on his back,
but some how he choses to go against almost everyone in here (SCH).
Unfortunately, if he continues to be a dog fight like this, you will
see more people jump into him.
SIDNIE
> fOR the guy or the girl who wrote this below message; I advise you to
> help a little bit more Hmong people before writing such a thing. Tej
> zaum koj ntshaw tau ntsej muag heev vob, tos koj qhia lino rau peb
> paub ... . Txhob khib mas, mus pab hmoob ces koj yeej tau ntsej muag
> thiab. Kev tau ntsev muag no, tsuas yog cov neeg TXAWJ pab thiab tau
> ... Maybe you are the kind of people who do not have the courage but
> only the desir so that you are a sure candidate to hypertension and
> diabetes ... Be careful of you wish.
Dr. Kaoly Yang,
Koj nkag siab yuam kev me ntsi lawm. Tsis ua li cas, koj rov mus
nyeem dua. Kuv mam rov tuaj nrog koj qhib paj hlwb ntxiv txog txoj
kev pab hmoob. Kuv tsis tau khib li cas tab sis tsuas hais li koj cov
lus koj sau xwb.
Ua siab loj mloog cov neeg nyob qib qis thiaj tsis muaj hypertension.
zoo
was present when the shooting at Hinh Heup broke. He was taunt, did
you participate in the shooting? He said. NO. I was a secret agent and
was not carrying any militayr type waepons.
This man is still alive and was there at the time of shooting. He may
know something about the incident. If any body ever travel to Xieng
Khouang, go and interview the man.
Ly Teck order the shooting?
There is questionable. Pathet Lao military are well trained to take
order from his commander only. Unlike;y that thepathet lao soldiers
will take order from Ly Teck. Unless like Ntsuabxwm said. "Cov rau
nabkaj txeeb phom ntawm cov real soldiers and shoot the people"
M. M. Lee
As for people here, many have been quite generous to me. Some have
sent flowers, plants, others a few dollars when I was broke in
Thailand, some send CDs of good music to calm my nerves, still others,
when I meet them in person, treat me to lunch or a good night sleep on
their couch, etc. Then, there are those who have been really good to
me, connecting me to individuals to interview and some even contribute
books or historical photos that I need. This is all the nurture I
expect. The rest is up to me to help myself like you said. See? I
really get a lot out of SCH, unlike some people who just get
aggravated to the point of having a stroke and don't make any friends
here. Sometimes I am quite taken by the fact that despite my pretense
at being abrasive, people really like me and actually take the
initiative to email me directly and meet with me when I travel to
their areas. It's actually quite touching. But then these are only the
really smart people only. Those who have no sense of humor totally
misunderstand my sarcasms here and often get really offended for no
reason.
-M
Pao
for what ever reason, Tou Ly has strong enough reason to make his
case.
But generally speaking... in every family, include my very own family,
there are certain things that had happened long time ago or in the not
so distant past that people will question about it. The best thing any
one can do or expect to do is to acknowledge that some events had
happened in the past which may be perceived differently, by different
people, at that time or by looking back from where we are now - but
it was in the past and that no one will be able to right a wrong or
wrong a right. If it is NOT a wrong, there is no point to make it
right.
But if it is a wrong, or a perceived to be a wrong-doing, the only
thing we can remove it from the wider public perception is to do more
good deed from NOW on, so eventually, like a dam, as the water fill
up, all the negative perception can buried and hidden in the bottom of
the dam .... but it will always be buried there along with the Titanic
to be salvaged by any one who care to dive deeper.
Pao
paajd...@yahoo.com (Moobsib) wrote in message news:<818ff16c.04032...@posting.google.com>...
Tou Ly
> are with him at his house in KM-52 on May 29th, 1975. They did not
> know of the shooting until the late morning when two young Hmong
> students rushed to informed him and the others of what had transpired
> at Hin Heup. Lyteck and Touby both jump in their own separate vehicles
> and head toward the scene. However, shortly afterwards, about 30 min
> or so, Lyteck returns to Nplooj's house and says that he's letting
> Touby go ahead to investigate while he heads down to Vientiane to
> inform the government of the news. And true enough within a few short
> hours Lis NtxoovNab (Lyteck's older brother) and 9 vehicles carrying
> food and medical aids went towards Hin Heup and BanXon.
Before I continue on displaying more evidence I would just like to say
that my uncle Tub PajTsab and I are not desperate to clear Lyteck's
(Lis Teeb) name. We only want to set the record straight. If anything
our family has endured this defamation for 29 years without
retaliating. We felt then that anybody with a fair mind and reasonable
knowledge would sift through Hmong gossip and find the matter untrue.
In hindsight, that was a mistake. The more we remain silent the more
people believe this matter to be true. Now there are books written
about Lyteck and our family based on false and inaccurate
information-- the latest being "Pachay's Wheat" by Keith Quincy. We
just want our voices heard, and most of all, to clear Lyteck of
something he didn't do. I would hope that should oneday someone wrongs
any of you, your family will have the courage to right it.
Here's more evidence to dispell the accusation that Lyteck shot or
ordered the Pathet Lao to kill the Hmong at the Hin Heup bridge. The
biggest oversight I made back in the summer of 1998 was forgetting to
elaborate on Nplooj's story. Had I done so back then many people
would've realized the falsity of the accusation. I believe some Hmong
witnesses are genuine in what they say, but at the same time I believe
their stories and evidences are inaccurate. On the other hand some
witnesses' stories are just rumours heard from here and there then
repeated onto others, and so forth, hence nowadays a big mess has
emerged. Let me continue on Nplooj's story. In the early morning of
May 29th, 1975 when the killing at Hin Heup occurred, Lyteck, Touby,
LaujFoom PajNpliam as well as 7 to 10 other guests and naibanhs
(village chiefs) were at Nplooj's house in KM-52-- the house is
located directly across the street from the market place. Originally
only Lyteck was at Nplooj's house. This was about 8:00 am or so when
all children were off to school. The two sat around and were just
casually talking when 30 minutes or so later Touby and LaujFoom
unexpectedly showed up. They were coming from Vietiane and were
heading to Huoydaw (25 km away from KM-52) to visit some of LaujFoom's
relatives. As they all chatted away some friends of Nplooj and
Lyteck's were shopping at the market across the street, thus seeing
the four prominent Hmong men together at Nplooj's house they decided
to go there and visit. One of them was PajCai Yaj. So now there were 7
or so of them talking away. Hearing the upbeat commotion two of
Nplooj's neighbours, Txhiaj Yeeb Lis and Zeb Lis (Tooj Sua Lis's two
sons) went to join them. Eventually a few more came and a gathering of
about 10 to 12 men took place. Lyteck then asked Txhiaj Yeeb and Zeb
to go to his ranch, which is about a 10 minute walk, and bring back a
goat to kill for the occasion. It was joyous for this was the first
time some of the Hmong guests were meeting Touby and LaujFoom, of whom
they've heard lots about. Anyways, so Yeeb and Zeb went and did as
Lyteck asked. But before the group even got to eat the goat two Hmong
students, about 20-23 years old, came running and told them that
shootings have taken place at Hin Heup. The two students then left in
the direction of Vientiane. This was about 10:30 am to 11:00 am.
Greatly concerned, Lyteck and Touby both jumped in their separate cars
and sped toward Hin Heup. But before he left he told Nplooj to be
careful for this may be a pretext by the Pathet Lao to harm Hmong
leaders. LaujFoom turned red faced for he was on the communist side.
However, about 20 min or so (I said 30 min in another post, but it's
closer to 20 min) Lyteck returned and said that he's letting Touby go
ahead to investigate while he heads down to Vientiane to report to the
government. Once in there Lyteck then asked NtxoovNab (older brother),
who also lived in Vientiane at the time, to lead a food and medical
team to Hin Heup. At about 1:30 pm or so NtxoovNab and 9 vehicles
carrying a doctor, medical aids, and food arrived in KM-52. NtoovNab
and company stopped there temporarily while he fetched some of his
sons to join them. XaivVws Lis (currently resides in Seattle, WA) was
one of them. They then went to Hin Heup and there they found a little
Hmong Hawj girl crying and laying by herself wounded by the side of
the road (qab kev). All the other Hmong had left Hin Heup already.
NtxoovNab bandaged her, picked her up and took her with him and
company to BanXon hoping to find her relatives-- which they did. There
NtxoovNab and company treated the wounded and handed food out. This
one Hmong woman then cursed NtxooNab, "Peb tsis xav noj nej cov niag
NyabLaj liab cov mov! Ib tsam nej lom peb!!" NtxoovNab was breathless.
She probably did eat after they left.
So here we have alibis for Lyteck. These witnesses are/were;
Touby Lyfoung (deceased)
LaujFoom PajNpliam (deceased)
NtxoovNab PajTsab (deceased)
Nplooj PajTsab (Waterloo, ON, Canada)
Txhiaj Yeeb Lis (Sacramento, CA)
Zeb Lis (Sacramento, CA)
PajCai Yaj (Pontiac/Detriot, MI)
There are also about 7 or so more people, but their identities and
whereabouts are unknown at the moment. But once they are found they'll
clearly vindicate Lyteck from many Hmong's accusations. Here the
theory that Lyteck picked up arm and shot the Hmong is false. It's not
possible for him to shoot anybody at Hin Heup since he's 60 km away at
that time. And this can further be substantiated by other witnesses at
the Hin Heup bridge. They are;
Nom Cib Vaj, Khwb Vaj, and Nyiaj Vaj (Lacross, WI). The three are
father and sons. They were at the bridge and they didn't see Lyteck on
that fateful day.
Niam Nyiaj Thoob Muas (Spartanburg, SC), who is Lyteck's older sister,
was also present that day. She didn't see Lyteck either. According the
screen name "NtsuabXwb" his friend, who is supposedly very close to Ly
Tou (Lyteck's younger brother), didn't need to see Lyteck or any of
the PajTsab brothers' faces, but can identify them by their voices.
Niam Nyiaj Thoob Maus is Lyteck's very own sister. Of all people she's
best qualified to know his voice. She didn't see him or hear his voice
that day.
Lieutenant Vaj Neeb (Vang Neng). Read Jane Hamilton's book, "Tragic
Mountains," on the Hin Heup incident and there is no indication that
Lyteck was there. Jane paints Lyteck in bad light, but never puts him
at Hin Heup.
Niam Nkaj Pov Yaj (Pontiac/Detriot, MI). She was one of the people at
the front line by the barricade and she didn't see Lyteck either. And
yes, she knew Lyteck before May 29th, 1975, so she would be able to
identify him. All she saw was Pathet Lao soldiers firing to force the
crowd back. Apparently some Hmong men tried to chop the bamboo/wood
barricade down, but in the process had sliced a soldier's arm, thus
the other soldiers began firing indiscriminantly. A particular Hmong
woman holding her small child's hand and wearing gold bracelets on her
wrists and neck was directly hit and fell. Her husband tried to take
the gold from her body, but was forced to move on as soldiers pointed
guns to his head. He left with his child and life.
Furthermore, consider this evidence. On June 2, 1975, 4 days after the
Hin Heup incident, Lyteck, Tsav Ntxawg Lis, and Txhiaj Foom Vaj
crossed over to Nongkhai, Thailand citing personal safety issues. Why
on earth would Lyteck leave for Thailand just 4 days fresh of
supposedly killing his own Hmong people? That makes little sense. If
he really did kill some Hmong at Hin Heup and is a communist he'd most
likely remain in Vientiane or KM-52 where he'd have the support and
protection of the Pathet Lao, brothers, and family. Leaving their
protection would put him at the mercy of some of the Hmong (and GVP)
in Nongkhai. This doesn't make sense at all. A guilty person would not
do such a thing.
continues...
Pao
Nyob zoo Tubpajtshab...
Zoo siab tias koj tssem ho hais txog kuv npe thiab.
I CANNOT remember responding to any of your thread... my first
response was to Tou Ly thread about his writing of Ly Teck's
biography.
Beside, your post is very confusing, if not unexpected, and I do not
understand what you are trying to say... so if you still want me to
respond to your post, please let me know.
Pao
Tou Ly
>
> Tou Ly my nephew,
> I'm sure that you are my brother's son, I can smell it and I'm proud
> of you. But are you AIB Tau or AIB Ntug? You know? Julie is a real
> fighter too. I like your cool style. Keep up the good job boy. Luag
> tej sib tw mus yuav degree los dai tim phab ntsa thiab dai ntawm hauv
> pliaj li Dr. Gary Yias lis lawv. Tab sis kuv tub nej mus kawm tau no
> ces tso twj ywm nruab siab xwb mog.
Txiv Tub,
Koj yeej tsis saib xyuas koj cov e-mails li lod? Kuv yog "aib Toh."
Hais nyob zoo rau Ntxawm Tub, Ntsuj Hli, thiab PajTsabTsob rau peb
suavdaws.
Hos txog ntawm cov niag degrees,,,, mine's not displayed on the wall
at all, but in my closet collecting dust.
Tou Ly
Tubpajtsab
> Xejthim,
>
> Luag tej laus hais tias "tsev vuas tsis zoo sim zeb tsev qeeb tsis zoo
> sim taws" cas Tabpajtsab thiab Charlie lawv sim zeb los tsev vuas tsis
> nrov hos sim taws los tsev qeeb tsis cig li...hahahahaha...thov txim
> nawb Maiv Nas thiab Nkauj Hli, tej laus twb piv lus tias "poj niam tso
> zis ua ruam ris hais lus tsis kav peb tag kis, hos txiv neej tso zis
> tuav qau rawv hais lus tom hniav nkawv" cas Tubpajtsab twv npav "Ps.
> After 3 days posting, this Challenge will be declared no contest if
> the opponent (charlie)choose to decline. May the Noobpajtsab be
> winner. And may charlie change his behavior." Nws nyuam qhuav yog 2
> hnub xwb yawg twb tsa tes tsa taw lawm....hahahaha..txuas luag ua luaj
> li...zaum no peb thiaj pom tias txiv neej tso zis tuav qau raws los
> hais lus tsis tom hniav nkawv...hahahahaha...I guess Charlie is the _
> _ _ _ _ _.
>
> Vuag! muab hais dhau nom ntsim lawm...Xejthim, wb txhob ncauj ntau
> ntau tsam tau kua haus.
>
> NeoHmong
>
NeoHmong, NtxubHmoob,
Thov txim uas kuv tsis nco qab "xaj la" neb ob tug ua hlob ua ntej
kuv yuav ncaim SCH. Nyaj yog vim li es neb thiaj rub rub kuv tw tsho,
ces cia kuv mam lais ngas (report) 2 los pub neb mloog.
1-Qhov koj hais tias nyuam qhuav 2 hnub xwb kuv twb thau lawm no, raws
li kuv teev tseg mas yog hnub 3-22-04 to 3-24-04 ces yog txwm 3 hnub
lawm. Neb muab tsom qhov muag mus tsom saib puas yog li kuv hais ne?
2- Kuv nthe xwb, cov dev vwm twb tuag lawm 2 tug tsis hnov suab ntab
ntws( kentth06, hmong213) Nyuag hmong 213 mas ua ntej yuav tu siav
cav quaj txuj txwv suab hlob suab yau ntxim hlub tsawv…Ces txhom tau
1 tug POW (charlie) yam li muab tsau quav nyuj tau 1 hnub tawm no nws
feeb meej zog law nej ib nyuag pab pub mov me ntsis rau thiab ces nyaj
yuav tsheej neeg lawm ( Ua tsaug Xab pas xaj UN Ceeb-V). Tshuav 1
tug khiav dim rau sab Afghanistan yog Ntsuab Xwm. Yam li tseem tsem
luj loos tuag tshaib ntuas tuaj. Ntsuab Xwm…aw… Ntsuab Xwm…kuv twb
tias kuv zam txim rau koj lawm ne, yog tshaib es tsis kam los fim kuv
los thov VISAS mus CANADA es koj twb qhuas qhuas tias cov PACHA
dynasty tid zoo zoo kawg thiab no ni… Nyaj lawv yuav tsis ua cas rau
koj pod…Khoo nyoo npum khab mab nyoos npum khij (Lus nplog.)
3-Neohmong, Ntxubhmoob, mloog neb cov language mas yam li neb xav xav
pom nyuj sib nraus li. That's animal cruelty. Don't try to turn me
into a monster, I'm too alert to buy that crap O.k
1st example: Do you remember the Rodney King's riot in Los Angeles. A
controversy verdict cause millions $ damages. Angers can be put down
by a simple gesture " Can we get along?"
2nd example: my uncles Dr. Gary Yias and Dr. Tou xa Lyfoung who
spended tons and tons of time to study, but look at what they've done
to the Ly (lee) by expressing some rotten comments in their books.
It could be the fuel that sparkled uncle Tou Pao angers at grand pa
Tou Geu Lyfoung. Ce cicatrice sera la' pour toujours, peut etre de
plus en plus large. Qui sait?
3rd example: The guilt of Lyteck and Hinh Heup's incident.
Zaum no, kuv yuav ncaim neb thiab tsoom SCH tiag tiag lau…, vim qaib
npua quaj zam zaws, teb strawberry los fab fab, poj niam me nyuam
los nthe nthe yuav nrauj los ntshai ntshai neej tsa khov li
charlie…ces ua ib siab mus luaj nroj thiab pub qaib lawm os…..Ob yawg
thaub aw…
"Il vaut mieux cultiver son jardin" J.J Rousseau.
Tubpajtsab.
Tou Ly
> Tsam nos sawv daws yuav los hais zoo rau Ly Teck los yeej tau. Tseem
> yuav swb Tou Ly thiab, cov dab neeg no yeej muaj tseeb thiaj hais.
> Tsis yog xa liam cov hnoob Paj Tsa ua yog cov tsis zoo rau peb hmoob
> thaum lub caij hmoob thojnam. Thaum Hinh Heup tas Phateb Lao tau coj
> Ly Teck mus Re-educational Camp. Coj Phanha Tou Bee Ly Fong mus ib
> yam. Nkawv yog ob tus hmoob los stop cov hmoob thojnam nyob Ban Souan.
> Hmoob kuj tau ntus aub ncaug rau yawg Phanha nyob ntawm lub Tajlaj Ban
> Souan. Ly Tou yuav tsi muaj txim rau koj, tiam si koj yeej paub txog
> zaj no, koj ua tu tsi kam paub xwb. Thaum ntawd neej yeej looj ntsej
> muag tib si, cov plog tsi kam tuas cov hmoob yog cov mus txeeb kiag
> rab pom machine gun los tua, cov hmoob tu mus yuav txog tus nrab choj.
> Mai N. muaj ib tug poj niam hmoob raug ib phab ceg lov xwb, tej zaum
> tseem ciaj tseem tsi tau tuag, yog interview nwg mas yuav paub tseeb
> heev.
>
> ntsuabxwm
ntsuabxwm,
Your Hmong spelling and grammar are a bit off so I didn't fully
understand certain parts, or at least I can't be sure, but from what I
gather you're saying that either you or your source saw some Hmong men
in masks wrenching a machine gun off of a Lao soldier's hand, who was
unwilling to shoot, then fired on the Hmong who were almost to the
middle of the bridge? Did I get that right?
Let's contrast your story/evidence with that of the other people's:
ntsuabxwm has Lyteck, Ly Tou, and others wearing masks and wrenching a
machine gun out of the hand of a Lao soldier to fire. But here the
identification is not through facial recognition, but by voice. Since
he talks about the Hmong civilian in the middle of the bridge it's
reasonable to deduce that Lyteck, Ly Tou, and others were standing
close to the middle of the bridge also;
NewAsianCafe has Lyteck (presumably without a mask on) standing under
the bridge holding a gun;
Points-Love has Lyteck (presumably without mask also) pacing back and
forth by the check point grabbing a B40 (shoulder rocket launcher) and
fires into the crowd;
Yaj Vam has Lyteck just shooting. No exact location is given;
There are two problems and many discrepencies when these stories are
compared. First of course is the identification of Lyteck. How can
ntsuabxwm or his source know it's Lyteck when he's wearing a mask? He
says through voice recognition. Would anybody with any intelligence
buy this? Would a good standing court accept it? NewAsianCafe says
that Lyteck is a public official and many know him so that's how
NewAsianCafe was able to recognize him. Points-Love also alludes that
he clearly sees Lyteck's face because he later meets Lyteck in
Nongkhai and is able to identify him.
Second, the exact location of Lyteck at the point of firing into the
crowd is all mixed up. Assuming that ntsuabxwm's source or himself can
identify Lyteck's voice he has Lyteck standing on and near the middle
of the bridge. Another witness has Lyteck standing by the check point.
And then another has him below the bridge. So then which one is
Lyteck? He can't be at three places at one time. This goes against the
law of physics. The inaccuracy is very obvious here, hence, how
credible are the evidences? Subsequently, how credible are the
witnesses? BABYFALL, Gary Lee Yia, Vaj Bis don't have Lyteck shooting
at all but just orders or influences.
Would any impartial and fair minded person convict Lyteck of the Hin
Heup incident with these sort of contradicting, vague, and even absurd
evidences? Have they produced guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?
*** Concerning Vaj Bis; he said that he's solely the reader and that
it was Charles(?) Vang who scripted the essay. He then asked Nplooj
(Lyteck's older brother) to go and do an interview in Fresno, CA,
concerning this matter which Nplooj obliged, but Vaj Bis was never
heard from again.
Tou Ly
Brandon Thao
> yuav swb Tou Ly thiab, cov dab neeg no yeej muaj tseeb thiaj hais.
> Tsis yog xa liam cov hnoob Paj Tsa ua yog cov tsis zoo rau peb hmoob
> thaum lub caij hmoob thojnam. Thaum Hinh Heup tas Phateb Lao tau coj
> Ly Teck mus Re-educational Camp. Coj Phanha Tou Bee Ly Fong mus ib
> yam. Nkawv yog ob tus hmoob los stop cov hmoob thojnam nyob Ban Souan.
> Hmoob kuj tau ntus aub ncaug rau yawg Phanha nyob ntawm lub Tajlaj Ban
> Souan. Ly Tou yuav tsi muaj txim rau koj, tiam si koj yeej paub txog
> zaj no, koj ua tu tsi kam paub xwb. Thaum ntawd neej yeej looj ntsej
> muag tib si, cov plog tsi kam tuas cov hmoob yog cov mus txeeb kiag
> rab pom machine gun los tua, cov hmoob tu mus yuav txog tus nrab choj.
> Mai N. muaj ib tug poj niam hmoob raug ib phab ceg lov xwb, tej zaum
> tseem ciaj tseem tsi tau tuag, yog interview nwg mas yuav paub tseeb
> heev.
>
> ntsuabxwm
Wow, interesting! It seems to me that even the Lao soldiers didn't
listen to LyTeck (?) and other HMong leaders there then, thus they had
to do it themselves. It'd be interesting if we could interview one of
those Lao soldiers who were present then as well.
--Brandon.
zoo
Tubpajtsab, ua cas hais lus loj ualuaj?
Those language and attide are that of jungle people. I thought you
left the jungle years ago. Is that the attitude of the Pajtsab and nws
cov noob, I hope not?
Tou Ly
> Furthermore, consider this evidence. On June 2, 1975, 4 days after the
> Hin Heup incident, Lyteck, Tsav Ntxawg Lis, and Txhiaj Foom Vaj
> crossed over to Nongkhai, Thailand citing personal safety issues. Why
> on earth would Lyteck leave for Thailand just 4 days fresh of
> supposedly killing his own Hmong people? That makes little sense. If
> he really did kill some Hmong at Hin Heup and is a communist he'd most
> likely remain in Vientiane or KM-52 where he'd have the support and
> protection of the Pathet Lao, brothers, and family. Leaving their
> protection would put him at the mercy of some of the Hmong (and GVP)
> in Nongkhai. This doesn't make sense at all. A guilty person would not
> do such a thing.
>
When Lyteck, Tsav Ntxawg Lis, and Txhiaj Foom Vaj arrived in Nongkhai
several Hmong men petitioned to the Thai authority for their arrests.
They were accused of being communists. Those Hmong men each took
several dozen pieces of papers and forged other people's signatures on
them to legitimize their protest. Lyteck was taken to a police station
and questioned. When the Thais found out who he was and that the whole
"Lyteck is a communist" propoganda was just a misunderstanding they
instead set him up in a hotel for the night. Ironically the Hmong's
petition saved him the horrible sleeping conditions of camp Nongkhai.
The next day he was released back into the refugee population with the
escort of two police officers. He visited his sister and her husband,
Nob Lis and Yeeb Yaj (were from Marysville, CA, but now reside in
Detriot, MI), before returning to Vientiane. They urged him several
times to remain in Thailand, but he declined. He was sadden and hurt
by how the people he thought he tried to uplift had misunderstood him
(and even tried to harm him also). He somberly stated to the effect
that there was still much to be done in the new emerging Laos and he
could not yet abandoned the many Hmong there. GVP had departed and now
there was only Touby left; he couldn't let Touby burden the problem
alone. So with a heavy heart Lyteck returned home. He didn't reveal
much of what transpired in nongkhai to Nplooj (older brother) at the
time, but only said that perhaps it's best to stay in Laos for the
living conditions of the refugees were very poor. Touby later went to
Thailand (to discuss matters with GVP, but they never met face to
face) and returned to say similar things (At the time they dind't know
the United Nations would come to help). Later that year around mid
November Lyteck, numerous Laotian officials, generals and colonels
were led away by the Pathet Lao. The last family member to see him
alive was Rattana Luangkot, his Lao brother-in-law. Some time in 1976
Lyteck and about 5 Hmong actually made a daring escape from "Camp 6."
For 3 nights and days they pushed their way through the jungles and
made it to Pathi (roughly 100 km from Samneu) but due to the betrayal
of some Hmong civilians there they were caught again. In 1977 with
teary eyes Lyteck's Lao wife informed other family members of his
passing.
The reason why Lyteck left for Thailand was because the killing at Hin
Heup finally shattered his belief in the Vientiane and Paris Peace
Accords (1973). He realized at this point that the Pathet Lao might
not uphold their part of the agreement. And no, he was not a
communist, traitor, or anything of that nature. Lyteck was the
secretary and a top negotiator of the RLG's negotiating team, so had
to live up to the accord in good faith. And this is where the
misunderstanding of the speech at LongCheng occurred. I'll explain it
in another post.
Continues...
Brandon Thao
--Brandon
Brandon Thao
HMong leaders were present at Lis Nplooj's house in KM-52? How
quickly they butcher the little goat to consume, when usually it would
take longer? How the students (are they HMong) knew of these leaders'
whereabouts at that time? How did LyTeck let "Touby go ahead to
investigate while he heads down to Vientiane to inform the government
at Ban Xon curse NtxooNab? Lastly and the most important question of
all, "Why was LyTeck being chosen as the scapegoat for this incident?"
These and others are some of the questions that came to my mind while
reading this passage. Interesting though. Keep on writing, bro.!
All the best,
Brandon
sibtham
I hope that you'll find peace and be optimistic like Candide after
exploring and fighting the real world/life.
"Il faux cultiver notre jardin" was the famous quote at the end of the
the novel Candide by the famous French philosopher Voltaire. (Not by
J.J. Rousseau)
Sibtham
> HmoobSib,Yias, Xej thim, SibTham, Pov...
> Khuv xim kuv xav nrog nej tham make new friends kawg tab sis kuv twb
> promese lawm tias: Kuv mus kuv tsis tuaj lawm ces nej cov scholars
> sawv daws mam nyob mam tham ov? Nco ntsoov dev vwm tom tom nej thaum
Charlie
Tsam no kuv mam feebmeej hais tias koj yog leej twg. Wb yeej tau tuav
tes lawm thaum tus Uncle Ntxoov Nab tau tas sim neej nyob Detroit.
Kuv tseem nco ib tug uncle hais tias, "Tub yog ib tug thaum ub uas tiv
thaiv cov menyuam Hmoob thaum lub sij hawm lawd kawm ntawd nyob Vees
Cam. Tsuas muaj Tub thiab qee leej thiaj
muaj cuab kav nrog Nplog sib ntaus thaum luag ua saib tsis tau peb
Hmoob." Kuv ibtxwm respect cov neeg uas nws tiv thaiv nws haiv neeg
lino. Kuv zoo siab uas koj tseem tau los mus xyuas kuv niam thiab kuv
txiv lawd. Thaumtwg yog tau rov tuaj no los xyuas peb dua.
Txawm peb yuav hais lus tau siab tau qis lawm los; kuv xav hais tias
peb tsuas hais txij peb tus kheej xwb. Tsis yog yuav piv zias rau ib
tsev neeg twg. When I spoke about the late Mr. Ly, Tek's myth or
reacted toward the Hin Heup plot; unequivocally, I directed my
comments toward an individual - never against the Ly Pacha family and
you. I strongly believe that kinship should not be mixed up with
politics. Whether late Mr. Ly, Tek was directly involved or fabricated
by the Lao PDR, the fact is many people including our own Dr. Gary Lee
said Mr. Ly, Tek had a part in the incident (good or bad). He too, I
believe was another
victim of the Lao PDR Regime; it is just easier for Hmong to lay the
guilt and frustration on Hmong. Tib yam li niaj hnub no sawdaws cem
Dr. Yang Dao & GVP.
Kuv kiag los yeej lay guilt rau coob tus lawm; tus uas kuv hais nyhav
tshaj rau yog Teev thiab Dr. Yang Dao vim kuv pom hais tias nkawd no
yog neej muaj txuj & can do better. Tibyam li koj singled kuv out vim
koj saib kuv tsis yog me yaus.
Uncle Tub, qhov kuv cheem Maiv Nas hauv kuv ob nqe lus thiab zaj
dabneeg, "the Goatherd and the Goat" yog Miav Nas txawj txhais mas
tsis tsim nyog nws chim rau kuv. The difference between the Internet
and personal interaction creates a huge gap for misunderstanding. Kuv
tsuas xav warn Mai Nas hais tias, yog koj
yuav pick Hlob Ly, Tek coj los tham ces muaj tejtxhia yuav teb vim nws
yog ib tug controversial figure yav tag los. Kuv tsis tau yuav teem
lub txim rau twg, twg. Koj saib puas yog li kuv hais; peb dhia cuag
licas tuaj!
Raws li kuv tau nyeem txog Hmoob keebkwm thiab xovxwm los ntawm
tejniam tejtxi thiab phoojywg - nej tsev Hmoob Xeem Ly - tsis hais Ly
Pacha, Lyfoung, lossis Lee lwm pawg. Qhov nej ua zoo thiab coj tau
Hmoob kom vammeej ntau npaug tshaj li qhov nej ua tsis tau. Txhob
muaj Hlob Ly, Tek coj los xav ntau, ntau! Ib tsob txiv ntoo, tsis
muaj hais tias luag yuav qhuas thiab nyiam noj txhua lub.
Zoo siab kuv rov qab los ntsib nej sawdaws dua. Kuv muaj haujlwm tawm
mus sab nraud lawm. Muaj caij no tuaj nrog peb sib cav hauv no ntxiv.
Charlie
tubpa...@hotmail.com (Tubpajtsab) wrote in message news:<38f565af.04032...@posting.google.com>...
> cav quaj txuj txwv suab hlob suab yau ntxim hlub tsawv?Ces txhom tau
> 1 tug POW (charlie) yam li muab tsau quav nyuj tau 1 hnub tawm no nws
> feeb meej zog law nej ib nyuag pab pub mov me ntsis rau thiab ces nyaj
> yuav tsheej neeg lawm ( Ua tsaug Xab pas xaj UN Ceeb-V). Tshuav 1
> tug khiav dim rau sab Afghanistan yog Ntsuab Xwm. Yam li tseem tsem
> luj loos tuag tshaib ntuas tuaj. Ntsuab Xwm?aw? Ntsuab Xwm?kuv twb
> tias kuv zam txim rau koj lawm ne, yog tshaib es tsis kam los fim kuv
> los thov VISAS mus CANADA es koj twb qhuas qhuas tias cov PACHA
> dynasty tid zoo zoo kawg thiab no ni? Nyaj lawv yuav tsis ua cas rau
> koj pod?Khoo nyoo npum khab mab nyoos npum khij (Lus nplog.)
> 3-Neohmong, Ntxubhmoob, mloog neb cov language mas yam li neb xav xav
> pom nyuj sib nraus li. That's animal cruelty. Don't try to turn me
> into a monster, I'm too alert to buy that crap O.k
> 1st example: Do you remember the Rodney King's riot in Los Angeles. A
> controversy verdict cause millions $ damages. Angers can be put down
> by a simple gesture " Can we get along?"
> 2nd example: my uncles Dr. Gary Yias and Dr. Tou xa Lyfoung who
> spended tons and tons of time to study, but look at what they've done
> to the Ly (lee) by expressing some rotten comments in their books.
> It could be the fuel that sparkled uncle Tou Pao angers at grand pa
> Tou Geu Lyfoung. Ce cicatrice sera la' pour toujours, peut etre de
> plus en plus large. Qui sait?
> 3rd example: The guilt of Lyteck and Hinh Heup's incident.
>
> Zaum no, kuv yuav ncaim neb thiab tsoom SCH tiag tiag lau?, vim qaib
> npua quaj zam zaws, teb strawberry los fab fab, poj niam me nyuam
> los nthe nthe yuav nrauj los ntshai ntshai neej tsa khov li
> charlie?ces ua ib siab mus luaj nroj thiab pub qaib lawm os?..Ob yawg
> thaub aw?
Hmong213
up to the Hmoob to judge and believe. I said what I heard from Ly Teck talked
to the Hmong crowd in Ban Xon. This is another phrase from his mouth " Yog kuv
cheem thiab hais nej tsis mloog, thaum twg kuv tso lus ces Pathet Lao tua nej
li nawb". Yog nws hais cov lus zoo li no rau Hmoob lawm. Thaum Hmoob raug tua
ces Hmoob thiaj li hais tias yog nws lawm no. Leej twg yuav hais li cas los
yeej meem hais, tiam sis Ly Teck yeej muaj feem xyuam txog qhov Hmoob raug tua
nyob Hinh Heup no.
>Subject: Re: Ly Teck's Dream [Lis Teeb Txoj Kev Npau Suav]
>From: wac...@hotmail.com (Brandon Thao)
>Date: 3/30/2004 10:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <8445f4d6.04033...@posting.google.com>
Brandon Thao
> Whatever Tou Ly said on his post, that is only one side of the story. That is
> up to the Hmoob to judge and believe. I said what I heard from Ly Teck talked
> to the Hmong crowd in Ban Xon. This is another phrase from his mouth " Yog kuv
> cheem thiab hais nej tsis mloog, thaum twg kuv tso lus ces Pathet Lao tua nej
> li nawb". Yog nws hais cov lus zoo li no rau Hmoob lawm. Thaum Hmoob raug tua
> ces Hmoob thiaj li hais tias yog nws lawm no. Leej twg yuav hais li cas los
> yeej meem hais, tiam sis Ly Teck yeej muaj feem xyuam txog qhov Hmoob raug tua
> nyob Hinh Heup no.
Interesting!! Does this mean that LyTeck wasn't there at the Hin Heup
Bridge incident, but because he had voiced as such, people just
automatically proclaimed that it was LyTeck who ordered the shooting
at the Hin Heup Bridge? Or, was LyTeck really at the Hin Heup Bridge?
From my interviews with informants, it seems like the majority HMong
placed LyTeck at the foot of the bridge opposite from the HMong crowd,
persuading the HMong crowd to turn back, but the HMong crowd refused
to and therefore a massacre ensued. Of course, that could be wrong
though. I can't wait to see what new evidence Tou Ly and others can
provide to discredit this rumor.
--Brandon.
Tou Ly
> The reason why Lyteck left for Thailand was because the killing at Hin
> Heup finally shattered his belief in the Vientiane and Paris Peace
> Accords (1973). He realized at this point that the Pathet Lao might
> not uphold their part of the agreement. And no, he was not a
> communist, traitor, or anything of that nature. Lyteck was the
> secretary and a top negotiator of the RLG's negotiating team, so had
> to live up to the accord in good faith. And this is where the
> misunderstanding of the speech at LongCheng occurred. I'll explain it
> in another post.
To better understand Lyteck's speech at LongCheng, for it concerns
many themes, one must examine his soured relationship between Gen Vang
Pao, his goals and accomplishments, and the interests of Souvanna
Phouma (RLG) and his counterpart, the Pathet Lao.
Up until about 1968 Lyteck and GVP, as well as various PajTsab
members, were very good friends. PajTsab (Lyteck's father) had helped
GVP in many ways with his military career so in kind when he passed
away (1967) GVP donated a significant amount of money to show respect
and gratitude. The support was embraced graciously. Lyteck and GVP
were best of friends in this period; they frequently visited each
other, advised one another on issues, went hunting together, etc.
Nplooj (older brother) described it as "two fingers wrapped around one
another." However a few people within GVP's close circle did not like
what they saw. He had set them aside in favour of Lyteck and they did
not appreciate it. To further exacerbate their jealousy Lyteck was
educated and came from a lineage of influence, hence his ascendency
would further dwindle their importance. Thus around April of 1968
after Lyteck and GVP went hunting together one of GVP's advisors, Mr.X
(let's call him Mr.X for now), plotted to wreck their friendship. What
happened was that on that particular hunting trip the two men had only
one rifle, a 22 calibre, so took turns shooting. It was fabricated
that when the gun was in Lyteck's hand he would use it to kill an
unsuspecting GVP. After the hunt the two men barbequed the many birds
they brought home and invited some soldiers and guests to join them,
of which Mr.X was a participant. The next morning before Lyteck and
Nplooj even woke up another GVP righthand man, Mr.Y, came looking for
Lyteck at Nplooj's house. He asked Nplooj's wife to wake Lyteck up for
he had an urgent matter to discuss. She politely did as requested.
Lyteck was happy to see his uncle, Mr.Y, so gladly entertained him.
But unbeknownst to him the topic to be discussed was something not of
his interest. Mr.Y right away urged Lyteck to overthrow GVP. He said
to the effect of this, "Teeb, koj yog PajTsab tus tub. Koj txiv yog ib
tug Hmoob phabej (hero). Peb yuav muab ob tug kub twjkum (rhino horns)
pub rau koj es muab Vaj Pao ntxeev loo. Koj mus zaum kiag nws qhov
chaw ntag od." Lyteck refused and said, "Naisphoo yog ib tug neeg zoo.
Kuv tsis xav yuav nws qhov chaw. Kuv kawm tau science politique xwb.
Kuv tuav tsis tau nws txoj haujlwm." Mr.Y lured him a few more times,
but he remained steadfast. Having heard the entire conversation thus
far from his bedroom and disliking where it may lead to, Nplooj then
came into the living room to greet his uncle. Mr.Y abruptly halted the
conversation and saluted both Nplooj and Lyteck, "Aws, Teeb, wb tham
li no xwb os," and quickly departed. Shortly afterwards the two
brothers headed over to GVP's house to visit. And to their surprise
they saw Mr.Y confiding something to GVP. As soon as Mr.Y saw them he
whispered a few last words into GVP's ear and left. GVP motioned for
the two to go over for he wanted to talk to Lyteck about a peculiar
problem. He wouldn't spell out what exactly was on his mind, but with
a red face he would just nod, hang his head, mumble, and so on. And he
repeated this a few more times. Eventually he drew breath and
confronted Lyteck, "Teeb, kuv hnov nag hmo thaum wb mus yos havzoov
hais tias koj yuav muab phom tua kuv no los sav." Shocked, Lyteck
replied, "Dag! Dag! Dag! Kuv tsis tau muaj pluajsiab li ntawm! Leej
twg yog tus hais li nod?" GVP didn't answer. Nplooj then interceded
and reasoned, "Yog Teeb xav tua koj nag hmo ces nws kuj tua tau koj
lawm. Neb muaj ib rab phom xwb puas yog?" GVP affirmed. "Yog li ntawv
thaum koj mus khaws noog lawm ces yog Teeb xav tua koj nws kuj tua tau
lawm... Koj txhob lam ntseeg cov neeg ze koj (advisors) lwj liam, lawv
tsis yog ib co neeg zoo." GVP nodded and saw light in Nplooj's words.
Lyteck then asked GVP again about the identity of the fabricator. GVP
conceded and revealed this, "VamKaim (Mr.Y) hais rau kuv hais tias
'Mr.X' yog to hais rau nws." In a conciliatory gesture GVP asked for
Lyteck and Nplooj to forget the whole matter. And not only that, but
they should and will remain friends. The other two were happy to
accept. For about a month or so Lyteck and GVP were back to their old
selves again, "two fingers wrapped around one another." But as in
every tragic plot there are always other people ready to ruin the
friendship once more. It is not known exactly what occurred a few
weeks later, but with the many whisperings from some of GVP's advisors
he suddenly distanced himself from Lyteck. Later on in 1969 GVP gave
200,000 kip to Lyteck and told him to go to Vientiane where Souvanna
Phouma will be waiting for him. Lyteck didn't think much of the
proposal at the time or what it meant, but was happy to recieve the
offer from his friend. When Lyteck arrived in Vientiane Souvanna
summonned him to a private meeting and showed him a note (written in
Lao), "I'm sending Lyteck to you. LongCheng is a war zone and it's no
place for him," signed "Vang Pao." The exact content of the meeting
was never fully revealed by Lyteck, but whatever may have transpired
in there he realized at that moment that his friend, GVP, had
basically turned him away. Disheartened and disappointted he remained
in Vientiane to work for government.
Here it requires a little more analysis to understand the full extent
of the matters. In 1968 Lyteck was 28 years old, Nplooj was 32, and
Gen Vang Pao was about 40 (give or take). The general was not only
their friend, but a npawg (aunt's son) and a mentor. When VamKaim Lis
(older brother of Lis Voos) came to either interrogate, lure, or trick
Lyteck (not exactly sure what his intention was) to overthrow GVP he
was in no position, both in age and mindset, to do so. Lyteck
genuinely had amicable feelings toward his friend then. And it's not
sure what exactly Souvanna confided to him when he arrived in
Vientiane, but it certainly changed his attitude from that day on.
There are several possibilities; 1)It could be that GVP privately
discussed issues with Souvanna prior to sending Lyteck there and then
Souvanna relayed it to Lyteck to make him realize that his friend had
ill feelings toward him, or 2) it could be that Souvanna fed him some
other ideas which made him disheartened, or 3) both.
To further heat the cauldron brewing between Lyteck and GVP, Mr.X
forged some writings to frame Nplooj concerning the monopoly of
slaughtering and selling cattle parts in the LongCheng market by GVP's
brother, PajVws. GVP went ballistic and swore at Nplooj using words
unbecoming of a man of his age and status. Nplooj responded in similar
fashion. Basically Mr.X was disgruntled with Nplooj for not permitting
him to rig the beauty pageant of 1967, of which his niece Mais Muas
was a participant. At the end Maiv Zeb Yaj ended up winning, and
rightfully so. This particular episode caused GVP to further dislike
PajTsab's sons, Lyteck included.
Finally the straw that broke the camel's back occurred in 1970. This
was a year of heavy bombarbment on LongCheng and the surrounding area
by enemy forces so a lot of Hmong were fleeing. In light of these
circumstances a particular Hmong Ly, Nom Kos, went and fabricated
stories to GVP saying that Lyteck, Nplooj, and their older brother,
Cawv, were generating large amounts of pamphlets telling civilians to
leave for Vientiane where they will be safe. Should the many Hmong
leave LongCheng it would render GVP's power base quite weak (And this
may also be the cause of Soob Lwm Yaj's murder). This got him riled
up. When he came upon Nplooj he threatened, " Nplooj!!! Fuabtais!!!
Nej peb tug kwvtij ntawm nej tseg nawb!!!.." Nplooj was bewildered and
didn't know where he was coming from so asked, "Es npaj no koj thiab
kuv ho muaj rog dabtsi tuaj lawm thiab nas?" Furious GVP scolded
Nplooj about him and his brothers' actions to undermine him. Nplooj
demanded him to show proof. GVP couldn't, but kept on ranting. Finally
GVP said that Nom Kos Lis told him so. Nplooj then asked GVP if he
believed Nom Kos and if he was of standing reputation. GVP went silent
and Nplooj left. Colonel Tub Pos Lis (Nplooj's uncle and GVP's
brother-in-law) tried to fix the problem between the many men
involved, including Ham Choj, but it was beyond repair. A couple of
weeks later Nplooj resigned as Colonel under the leadership of GVP and
transferred to Vientiane. The truth of the matter was no such
pamphlets to undermine GVP existed. The only ones in circulation at
the time were by Souvanna Phouma and the government telling all
civilians that he understood their sufferings and that he'll send
food, clothes, etc, to eliviate their hardships. The phantom pamphlets
was all a lie created by Nom Kos to cause tensions between the parties
involved only. And he did a good job at it.
Even though Lyteck was foresaken and exiled by his friend in 1969 he
still didn't hold any animosities toward him. It was not until 1971 to
1975 when he discovered GVP's plot to assassinate him and his brothers
that his feelings hardened. And it's only fair and understandable.
There were five known attempts;
1) In 1971 Tooj Xeeb Lauj recieved 5 million kip to kill Lyteck,
Nplooj, and Cawv. It never occurred for Tooj Xeeb is their family and
he didn't have the heart to do so.
2) In 1971 Yeeb Yaj was personally hired by GVP for 3 million kip to
finish the job. But this time the targets were Lyteck, Nplooj, and
Touby Lyfoung. Again, the plot didn't get carried through.
3) In 1972 Lis Nus was given 3 million to eliminate Lyteck and Touby
Lyfoung. Nothing happened.
4) In 1974 a large undisclosed amount of money was given to Tooj Txawj
Nyam Yaj to kill Lyteck, Nplooj, and Cawv again. The money was
returned.
5) In 1975 Yaj Bis was given 30 million kip to finish the job on all
the PajTsab brothers, but again, fate and the human heart were kind so
the assassin didn't follow through.
These are the five known assassination attempts. Possibly there could
have been more. Of the five would be assassins only one is still
alive; Nom Yeeb Yaj. He currently lives in Detriot, MI and can
collaborate this.
As one can see it's only logical that Lyteck lost respect for his
npawg, mentor, and friend GVP. Anybody would after the numerous murder
plots. Even though GVP had the willingness to kill the PajTsab
brothers (due to the poisoning of his advisors), they wouldn't
reciprocate in kind, not unless of course their lives were immediately
threatened. Colonel Tub Pos Lis could and would vouche to this; he
witnessed many wrongs as well as mistakes committed by GVP. If heaven
is to bear witness he would affirm Nplooj's stories. Thus essentially
this was how the whole souring of relationship between Lyteck and GVP
occurred. And it was this context, albeit not the salient one, that
played as one of the themes for Lyteck's speech at LongCheng.
P.S. Mr.X is a Muas and the brother-in-law of the late VamKaim Lis.
Continues...
Tou Ly
> Even though Lyteck was foresaken and exiled by his friend in 1969 he
> still didn't hold any animosities toward him. It was not until 1971 to
> 1975 when he discovered GVP's plot to assassinate him and his brothers
> that his feelings hardened. And it's only fair and understandable.
> There were five known attempts;
>
> 1) In 1971 Tooj Xeeb Lauj recieved 5 million kip to kill Lyteck,
> Nplooj, and Cawv. It never occurred for Tooj Xeeb is their family and
> he didn't have the heart to do so.
>
> 2) In 1971 Yeeb Yaj was personally hired by GVP for 3 million kip to
> finish the job. But this time the targets were Lyteck, Nplooj, and
> Touby Lyfoung. Again, the plot didn't get carried through.
>
> 3) In 1972 Lis Nus was given 3 million to eliminate Lyteck and Touby
> Lyfoung. Nothing happened.
>
> 4) In 1974 a large undisclosed amount of money was given to Tooj Txawj
> Nyam Yaj to kill Lyteck, Nplooj, and Cawv again. The money was
> returned.
>
> 5) In 1975 Yaj Bis was given 30 million kip to finish the job on all
> the PajTsab brothers, but again, fate and the human heart were kind so
> the assassin didn't follow through.
>
> These are the five known assassination attempts. Possibly there could
> have been more. Of the five would be assassins only one is still
> alive; Nom Yeeb Yaj. He currently lives in Detriot, MI and can
> collaborate this.
Overall Gen Vang Pao was a good man in the 1960's. However towards the
end of the decade and into the 1970's he had changed. Whether it was
from the stress of war, the corruption that came with power, the
influence of his advisors, or the twisting of certain rival (sometimes
friend, sometimes rival) Ly members, it's not certain, but whatever it
was his taste for the PajTsab brothers had changed. To really
understand why GVP transformed from friend to foe a lot raw
information would have to be revealed. I'm not permitted to do so at
the moment. Not only that but the information would destroy whatever
amends the PajTsab's have made with various Ly branches over the
years. Unfortunate as it is, the other Ly's were very much a part of
the cause for the freying of friendship. Only the old and the very
knowledgable will know about these issues.
If GVP was true to himself and true to his followers he would tell
them that the person who saved his positoin, and perhaps even his
life, during the 1966 "coup" was one of Lis PajTsab's sons. How soon
he forgets and just 5 years later he would put a price on their lives.
Tou Ly
Tou Ly
Yia, so who is your uncle (txiv hlob)? And I'm not sure if you and I
had the opportunity to introduce ourselves yet? You might know me
already, but I'm not sure about you. But that's probably my fault.
Moobsib, when and where did you run across Lis Teeb? And I understand
very much where you are coming from. Even if you know somebody's
personality and character reasonably well it's hard to defend him
against serious allegations when you don't know the facts to back it
up, such as your case. I think this is the reason why many people who
knew him haven't spoken up yet.
The reason why I didn't thank you two and respond to your messages
sooner was because I didn't want to cluster this thread.
Tou Ly
charlie
> I'm in the process of writing Lyteck's biography and it's of
> considerable length that's why I haven't posted anything on the matter
> yet. My plan is to shed light on his accomplishments, hopes and
> dreams, his fall out with GVP, the speech at LongCheng and conclude
> how he was later smeared for Hin Heup. Nowadays most people do not
> have any idea what his positive goals are for the Hmong, but are only
> registering him with the Hin Heup incident. The wound of the tragedy
> is still bleeding red for a lot of people, therefore in accordance I
> will temporarily stop and address this matter.
>
> It's obvious there are skeptics in SCH and around the world who
> strongly believe in Lyteck's guilt for the Hin Heup killings. Others
> don't know the certainty and extent of his involvement, but insinuates
> his greed and ambition getting the better of his judgement. In their
> eyes those qualities render him in character of committing the
> atrocity, hence you have fables and snide remarks here and there.
> Notables who have written essays, talked on radio, or wrote poems
> about Lyteck and Hin Heup are as follow:
>
> 1) Garry Lee Yia of Australia in one of his papers says to the effect
> that Lyteck influenced the event. He later writes to Lyteck's older
> brother, Nplooj, that he simply retold stories from his sources.
>
> 2) Lag Hawj from Milwaukee, WI in his "Tswm Yim" book writes that Lis
> Teeb (Touby's Lyfoung's son) murdered all the people at Hin Heup. He
> confuses the identities of Teeb PajTsab and Teeb LisFoom, unless he
> really means the latter is the culpable one. And not all the people at
> Hin Heup were killed. It's safe to say that Lag's book lacks critical
> research.
>
> 3) Vaj Bis, the radio host(?) of "Hmoob Thooj Siab Koom Ntsws" in
> Fresno, CA explains on August 1996 that the fall of the RLG/Laos is
> attributable to Lyteck and that he ordered the killing at Hin Heup.
> Anybody with reasonable knowledge knows the fall of Laos went beyond
> Lyteck, Touby, Yang Dao, Vang Pao, or any one Hmong's control (or all
> of them for this matter). On the issue of Hin Heup Vaj Bis didn't
> reply to a telephone interview.
>
> 4) Yaj Vam sings a kwvtxhiaj that yawg hlob Teeb picks up a gun and
> fires upon his own people.
>
> The aforementioned people can be forgiven and their tales set aside
> for they recieved information through questionable sources only. A
> second group, however, bears to be first hand witnesses or have
> interviewed first hand witnesses. They all use screen names to bring
> forth their messages, but be as it may their stories cannot be
> dismissed easily. Their recounts shed volumes on Lyteck's character
> (or lack of) and the Hin Heup incident. Actually their evidences will
> be used to dispell one another. And the other reason why I put them in
> this second category is because they have interacted and directly
> responded to me. These people are:
>
> 1) "BABYFALL" (a Hmong Tsab?) back in 1998 and 1999 says that he heard
> Lyteck talk at LongCheng specifically wanting to dethrown GVP and
> more. He also theorizes that Lyteck ordered the shooting, but he may
> not have been present there. True to an extent Lyteck made a speech of
> the sort at LongCheng, but the motive will later be elaborated for
> clarification. Some people who don't know the whole story may
> miscontrue the overall message for something sinister. And it's this
> misunderstanding that has clouded their judgements making them believe
> the speech, amongst other things, forbodes the incident at Hin Heup.
>
> 2)"Kammamhlub" (a Hmong Thoj?) on Oct, 1998, writes that his
> informants said this, "one informant lamented that after the shooting
> he returned to witness the scene and saw ponds upon ponds of bright
> red blood, each barely being covered despite using five or six huge
> palm leaves. It was beyond one's imagination..." His informant's
> account is in contrast to NtxoovNab (Lyteck's older brother) and Touby
> Lyfoung's assessment who investigated the matter just hours after it
> occurred. They only saw sparse blood spots here and there. They
> estimated the number of casualties to be in and about a dozen or so.
> Kammamhlub's "ponds upon ponds of bright red blood" would indicate a
> death toll in the hundreds, if not thousands. From what all of you
> Hmong have heard, what do you really think the more accurate number
> would be?
>
> 3) "NewAsianCafe," claims that on the rainy day of May 29, 1975 at the
> Hin Heup bridge he sees Lyteck standing below the bridge holding a
> gun. He loses a shoe as he scrambles for safety when bullets come
> flying. His posting can no longer be found on SCH, but I'm positive
> that many of you still remember his screen name. Furthermore, he goes
> on to assert that Lyteck and the Lynhiavu family have the backing of
> the Pathet Lao and are themselves communists. This is simply wrong.
> There are some Hmong on this board, such as Dr Yang Dao and YaMyYoufu
> Yang, among others, who know without a doubt that this belief is just
> incorrect in every sense.
>
> 4) "Points-Love" is a poster from Hmongonline.com who adamantly
> asserts that he sees Lyteck dressed in civilian outfit pacing back and
> forth at the gate looking furious, then grabs a B40 (small rocket
> launcher) and shoots towards the crowd. He is hit and either loses or
> severly injures a leg. Four days later on June 2nd he and his family
> escape to Nongkhai, Thailand and coincidently meets Lyteck there. He
> automatically recognizes the culprit, or so he believes. The story
> doesn't end there however. "Points-Love" is born in 1970. The incident
> at Hin Heup occurs on May of 1975. The subraction leaves him at 5
> years old. Can a 5 year old remember accurately the entire event
> enough to know without a doubt that Lyteck is the shooter? Can he
> remember faces? Thinking back to when I was 5-8 years old I can't
> remember people, locations, or events well at all, especially a person
> who I only saw for a few seconds. This is the case with all children's
> memories, hence today's courts evaluate their testimonies with great
> caution. I further asked him how he and his family are able to get
> from Hin Heup to Nongkhai in such a short time and he didn't reply
> back. Hin Heup to Nongkhai is at least 120 km. He would have to go
> through several check points and a large river (Mekong) in order to
> make it to Thailand. He even goes on to say that Yeej PajTsab
> (Lyteck's brother) had wronged him at KM-52. Yeej was a full grown man
> with several kids at the time. "Points-Love" was just a baby. Unless
> Yeej spanked him on the bum for being a little brat how could a grown
> man have "wronged" him?
>
> Be it as it may, those are their stories. But now we have to
> critically examine the evidence. Even though in of themselves some of
> their stories and assertions are not true, we shall contrast them with
> the other witnesses accounts to see the discrepencies.
>
> Firstly, let's look at where some people and witnesses have Lyteck
> standing and doing on or around the bridge. NewAsianCafe has Lyteck
> standing at the bottom of the bridge holding a gun. Points-Love has
> Lyteck pacing back and forth by the check point gate and uses a B40.
> Yaj Vam just has Lyteck shooting a gun. The complication, confusion,
> and inaccuracy are very obvious here. Lyteck cannot be at two or three
> different places at one time doing several different things. So where
> is Lyteck standing and what weapon is he holding for real then? If
> Lyteck is at point A, then who is at point B or C?
>
> Secondly, BABYFALL and Garry Lee Yia, as well as that of Vaj Bis just
> have Lyteck influencing or ordering the soldiers to fire at the crowd.
> Moobsib's (PaajDyarng) interview with many refugees/survivors has this
> to say, "Thaus Hmoob tsi noog nwg lug ces nwg txhaj tso ncauj rua peeb
> zeej Koomtshaas tua peb cov Hmoob." So here there is no indication
> that Lyteck took up any sort of weapon to fire at all, but just orders
> the soldiers to do so.
>
> Lis Nplooj has it that Lyteck, Touby Lyfoung, and Lauj Foom PajNpliam
> are with him at his house in KM-52 on May 29th, 1975. They did not
> know of the shooting until the late morning when two young Hmong
> students rushed to informed him and the others of what had transpired
> at Hin Heup. Lyteck and Touby both jump in their own separate vehicles
> and head toward the scene. However, shortly afterwards, about 30 min
> or so, Lyteck returns to Nplooj's house and says that he's letting
> Touby go ahead to investigate while he heads down to Vientiane to
> inform the government of the news. And true enough within a few short
> hours Lis NtxoovNab (Lyteck's older brother) and 9 vehicles carrying
> food and medical aids went towards Hin Heup and BanXon.
>
> and elaborate on them later. Besides, most people don't want to read
> anything more than 2 pages long. I'm the same.
Ly Tou,
I would be so interested in reading your book when it comes out to the
market. I had seen Touby at Ban Xon convincing people not to flee the
country but only heard of Lyteck after the shooting (I was not there
yet).
As a third grader, I met Lyteck at the Old Long Cheng Market when he
returned from a foreign country - not sure what country. We were
surrounding him when he explained to Hmong people how rain is made.
My peers and I were so amazed of his work with us children. He must
be a good man and had good intention for Hmong people. I mean we have
lost an educated Hmong leader. I am not related to any of you but I
did live nearby the Pajtsab families and had a good relationship with
one of the girls (Ong) in school. Keep up the good work.
Best Regards,
CY
Tou Ly
I haven't answered some of your questions because I didn't want to
cluster this thread. I'll clarify them now.
> Interesting! I wonder why all of a sudden all of the distinguished
> HMong leaders were present at Lis Nplooj's house in KM-52?
They were always there. It's just that I didn't expand on the alibi
before. I was busy showing how contradicting, vague, and even absurd
some witnesses were back in 1998 that at times I lost track. But no,
this is not an attempt to somewhow rewrite history in a conspiratory
fashion.
> How quickly they butcher the little goat to consume, when usually
> it would take longer?
If you read again it just says they (Lyteck, Touby, others) didn't get
to eat yet. It didn't say Txhiaj Yeeb, Zeb or others were completely
done and ready to serve. Didn't get to eat can mean a number of things
and ecompass a wide time frame.
> How the students (are they HMong) knew of these leaders' whereabouts
> at that time?
The students are Hmong. Everybody in KM-52 know where Nplooj lives
since he was the mayor and his house was/is right beside the road and
market. For instance you would probably know where former Gov Jesse
Ventura lives, but he most probably wouldn't know you and where you
live. Similar scenerio here.
> How did LyTeck let "Touby go ahead to investigate while he heads
> down to Vientiane to inform the government of the news"?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here... But my guess is that they
thought the situation would be best served if one person did one task
while the other did another. And it makes sense. No use wasting
valuable time and manpower doing one thing only. Touby was able to
investigate and get reasonably accurate information on the Hin Heup
site while at the same time Lyteck was able to get NtxoovNab and aid
dispatched promptly also. They made a smart decision.
> Did he have power over Touby?
It's probably not "power over Touby" in this case, but who should do
what at the time. It was a pressing matter and that's just how it came
to be.
> Why did that HMong woman at Ban Xon curse NtxooNab?
NtxoovNab himself doesn't even know. In my opinion I think it's just
indignant ignorance on her part only. Even the little Hmoob Hawj girl
who he saved at Hin Heup later cursed his name when she got to
Thailand. She along with a whole bunch of Hmong were saying that the
PajTsab brothers were communists and whatever else when he stumbled
upon them (Basically she was just parroting the other people's
propagandas). He recognized her, but she didn't remember him. He told
her that he was the one who saved her and he's the NtxoovNab she's
currently demeaning as a communist and killer, etc. Embarassed, she
begged for forgiveness. He lectured the ingrate then left.
> Lastly and the most important question of all, "Why was LyTeck
> being chosen as the scapegoat for this incident?"
We'll come to that shortly. Thanks for your continuing interest.
Tou Ly