The Truth about Hmong Culture.
Mysterious King
scholars, philosophers, etc" do not know much about Hmong culture or
the Hmong people? How many times have you encountered a Hmong doctor
or scholar who could only speak Hmong brokenly? Doesn't it beg the
question: how much does one really knows if one does not even know much
about oneself? I find it amusing that many of these individuals who
supposedly reached the apex of learning cannot even use their own
tongue, less comprehend much about their own culture.
If we do not know much, we will fall for anything. It's time for Hmong
to learn about the Hmong culture, Hmong practices, traditions, and way
of life from knowledgeable Hmong persons and not just accept these
"education" from White authors or the White media. It is mind boggling
to witness Hmong youths or Hmong "intellectuals" nowadays blindly
accepting White trashing of Hmong as scholarly findings. Many Hmong
idiots have come to accept White authors and the White media as the
authorities on Hmong culture and Hmong ways of life. Many Hmong have
gone as far as openly rebelling against Hmong and Hmong ways as the
cool things to do http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/5668093.html.
How nice of a weapon these poor, disoriented, lost souls become for
others to use against the Hmong people. Notice that out of 60,000
Hmong living in MN, the Tribune could not find one person to explain
the intricacies to the rape series. It is no accident that the Tribune
could not find one. Its true interest in solving Hmong problems is
over shadowed by the fervor of its smear campaign.
Contrary to what's stated in the series of the Tribune's trash
articles, gang raping of Hmong girls has nothing to do with Hmong
culture. Such act is not condoned, acquiesced, encouraged, nor
accepted by the Hmong community. To state that Hmong culture is the
cause or contributing factor to such act is a total lie, more so than
simply misinformation. There is not one grain of truth in it. But,
the Tribune relies on the notion that simpletons will accept simple
explainations on complex problems. The fact that many Hmong are
actually eating this lie shows how naive, ignorant, gullible, shallow,
and trusting some Hmong are. It is these "trusting" Hmong individuals
that have become the tools by which the integrity of Hmong will be
chipped, trashed and destroyed.
Know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
HwjXeeb
not alone in your frustration and anger at the ways that many of our
young people are "colonized" mentally and coopted to become weapons of
the whites to fire at our own people and our culture. I won't go that
far in accusing all Hmong educators and intellectuals of ignorance of
their own culture. I am sure many Hmong educators and intellectuals
know a whole lot about Hmong people and our culture. Many, I hope,
will not trash our culture. In fact, if you look at colleges and
universities across the U.S., you'll see that Hmong educators and
intellectuals are at the forefront of a battle to put Hmong culture and
history into the curriculum, so that younger Hmong will not be
disillusioned and confused about who they are and where they are going
in life. There is a resurgence of interest in Hmong studies now, as it
is testified by the formation of the Hmong Studies Center in St. Paul.
The fight is a slow one, my friend. We must be patient, but we will
get there somehow. We will eventually "decolonize" the minds of our
young and old ones alike. I'm confident of this. That's why I go into
the academic field. My hope is to fight this battle without shedding
blood, my friend. To fight in the battle in the minds and hearts of
people. For I believe, the root of our conflicts, lies in our hearts
and our minds. Keep on keeping on with your great insights and good
work. Keep on observing and bringing out critical issues to the
forefront for discussion.
StickRice
Frank
Mysterious King
learning", have lost much on "Hmoob txuj ci", the magic hidden in Hmong
culture. I have met some Hmong drs. who consider themselves to be
among the top anthropologists, yet know less about Hmong than my 87
year old granny who had never sat in a classroom. Yet, these
individuals think the White media and authors are more correct about
Hmong than my 87 year old granny.
When the White media and authors preached, many of our phd individuals
find themselves in the audience agaped and drooling, digesting the
formers' spits on Hmong as health food for their intellectual minds.
But when our elders speak, the elder's credentials are often
questioned, if not ignored. What intelligence is this? What valuable
knowledge would be lost if we value credentials over experience?
HmoobHlubHmoob
the intellectual's thought or name on the paper, they're both happy at
the expense of truth?
StickRice
There's a saying that when you finger point, there are three aimed
back at you.
Are you angry at the Star Tribune for its crappy and bigoted reporting
or are you angry at your perception that Hmong in higher ed are poor
speakers of their native tongue?
I couldn't tell from your posting.
If your issue is with the Tribune's reporting, then, as the
self-proclaimed "Mysterious King," take up your beef with the Trib.
And if you feel as impassioned about this as you would like us to
believe, write to the Trib. Take your indignation to the mainstream
community and scream at the injustice that you perceive.
And if your anger is with what you perceive as a poor command of Hmong
language endemic of Hmong in academia, then, like the Star Tribune, you
are guilty of painting with a broad and blind stroke. Besides, how sure
are you that a fluent speaker of Hmong would have an appreciation of
Hmong customs and practices? What about the blond haired, blue eyed
Mormons who speak Hmong without the slightest accent? Is it your
position that these folks would automatically better understand the
struggles of Hmong in America than educated Hmong who speak their
native language with rigid tongues? Is it your thinking that these sons
of Anglos would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with struggling Hmong with
the sons of Hmong would abandon their own brothers?
It's that kind of blind thinking that is hurting up the Hmong
community.
Who is it who chases away Hmong who have succeeded in America and want
to give back to their own people? Tsis yog tias Amelikas dawb noj
Hmoob; yog Hmoob tom Hmoob.
I've seldom heard about Americanized Hmong taking advantage of other
Hmong; but I have more often heard about Hmong undermining each other!
Whether it is the Hmong traditionalists taking orthodox positions or
the Hmong modernists swinging across to the opposite end, it is the
same argument taking place between traditional Hmong and Christian
Hmong. Your kind of thinking leaves no room for the middle where most
hardworking Hmong Americans have found themselves. Your either-or,
black-and-white line of thinking is what's alienating Hmong who could
otherwise be a valuable resource in retaining aspects of Hmong culture
that are WORTH keeping.
For argument's sake, let's assume you're right. If Hmong doctors,
engineers, scholars, philosophers, etc., have lost their mother tongue
and no longer practiced Hmong traditions-in essence they have
"divorced" their Hmongness-what's the big loss? They're not
Hmong anyway? Right?
Like I said...your posting is a piece of crap and a waste of Hmong
energy.
"Frank" Lis Foom
Ncaimtseemnco
So what is a culture then? When Mpls Star Tribune published an
article, mentioning the words "kidnap" (sij pojniam) and "rape" (deev
me nyuam ntshais tsis tau muaj 18 xyoo), many of you are very happy
because because many of you believe that these are our culture. Well,
are these really our culture? I am not an Anthropologist or expert,
but it is obvious that these are absolutely not our culture. What a
ashameful to tell the world that these are part of our culture.
Kidnap(sij pojniam) and rape (deev me nyuam ntshais) are not and have
never been our culture. The only reason why Hmong people practiced
these acts in the past is simply because Hmong used to be lawless
people. Because there was no law, the leaders and the elders were the
ones who led the way on practicing these acts and no can be punished
for. Let it be crystal clear that these acts are not and have never
been part of our culture.
-Cha.
Ncaimtseemnco
Mysterious King
Your assumption that I am blanketing the Hmong "intellectuals" as
losers is misconstrued. I am saying that many Hmong intellectuals,
although do not comprehend the Hmong culture fully,
1. assumes that because of their higher educational attainment, they
can speak on behalf of the Hmong people pertaining to Hmong culture,
when in reality, they know very little about the essence of Hmong
culture; what they know about the Hmong culture likely is not from
personal researching within the Hmong community, but from what's taught
to them by the White media and White authors. Because of their not
being fully versed in Hmong culture, Hmong intellectuals find
themselves unable to defend against Hmong bashing by the White media
and White authors;
2. thinks that Hmong culture and practices are either backward,
outdated, or is no longer in alignment with modern thinking, when, in
fact, they have not thoroughly investigated the true gems within the
culture and practices, that if Hmong culture is fully investigated by
Hmong intellectuals, they would actually add to their learnings and
achieve true intellectual status; and
3. unwittingly corroborates with Hmong bashing by others when they are
quoted in the media or in books due to their "scholarly" status and
their being sons/daughters of Hmong.
No, I am not saying that it is wrong to achieve academic success.
Sure, I am happy when people achieve economic success and give back to
the community. That is besides the point here.
I am saying that Hmong scholars and intellectuals should feel insulted
when they are being taught about Hmong culture and practices by the
White media and authors. I am saying that we should not accept being
taught about Hmong from the blue-eyes boy Mormon, white reporter, or
news anchor person.
Rather than just nodding our heads, "yeah, what you say about us is
true", we should know enough to clarify why what's stated in books or
in the media is not true. If we do not know enough, do not pretend to
be experts. If we collaborates with the accusers or do not dispute the
falsity of what's published, those things will soon become "facts"
about us. Examples: We should not accept the assertions that: 1.
Hmong culture contributes to gang rapings of underage girls; 2. "bride
price" constitutes the selling of ones daughter; 3. consent to the
underage marriage of ones daughter equates to consent to having ones
daughter raped; etc., etc., etc.
The Hmong ways of life are not the wrong ways to live...we should
embrace who we are and reject any innuendos that make our ways of life
appear wrong or are those of beasts'.
Mysterious King
For your info, kidnapping is not "zij pojniam". Zij pojniam is zij
pojnaim. Neither is "sib deev" rape. Kidnapping is kidnapping and
rape is rape, regardless of whose culture it is. Do you see how the
White people has perverted the Hmong culture? This is exactly what I
am talking about. They have used their own illegal terms to describe
what we legally practiced, casting our practices as crimes,
criminalizing us all.
Kidnapping is a crime. "Zij pojniam", in the truest of its meaning, is
a marriage ritual, often performed with consent by both parties. "Zij
pojniam" is not a crime and we need to make this crystal clear. Before
marriage can ever occur, both bride and groom must consent. In the
purest of practice, often the "zij pojniam" ritual is pre-arranged by
the bride and the groom. If you don't believe me, ask knowledgeable
Hmong elders. They'll attest to this fact.
You are correct in saying that kidnapping and raping are not parts of
the Hmong culture. These terms were forced into our minds to make us
reject who we really are. Do you see my point? Nowadays, even Hmong
scholars have unwittingly accepted these terms as applicable to Hmong
practices.
Mysterious King
Ncaimtseemnco
You are wrong. Zij pojniam has never been arranged and agreed by both
bride and the groom. I had witnessed many cases in my own eyes.
Several cases had ended up with a suicide by the girl because she had
never agreed with the marriage.
Like I said the only reason why no one got proscuted for these crime
acts was simply because Hmong had no law back then.
-Cha.
Tshua
The groom involved in this seemingly coerciveness of marriage was still
subjected and confined to traditional marrital laws. The parents of the
bride must be notified of the her whereabout within a short time frame
after she has been abducted. Her parents had the right to sue the
groom, his family and leader if the groom fails such or if the bride
becomes endangered under any circumstance at all. The groom is legally
obliged at this point to fully protect her and provide safeguard to
prevent her from poisoning herself or runaway until the marriage is
formally solemnized. "Tuag los yog nej dab, ciaj los yog nej neeg" as
they said. The groom was given usually about three days and three
nights to bring her back for a wedding; during this period the bride
either accepted the groom as her soul mate or she could also refuse and
sought to find her way out through the local city council, mayor, or
even provincial governor. If she refused and escaped the groom she
would owe him nothing for "npua tsis tau los ntshav ntsej, qaib tsis
tau los ntshav ntswg; tshoob kos tsis tau noj; mejkoob thejcom tsis tau
pauv zog." If she couldn't refuse then the wedding ceremony shall be
performed; any escape attempt or made after the wedding could cause her
parents tremendously.
The list goes on and on; I do not condone coercive marriage in this
free of the free modern day time. My point is merely to point out to
those who have Hmong cultural barriers that coercive marriage back in
Laos isn't kidnapping as black and white we've seen in American
television and in the news. And, don't attempt to kidnap any bride,
either, if you do not know Hmong customs.
The media has misconceptualized our Hmong culture and tradition!
Tshua
You can't compare the laws of today to that of yesterday. Laws as we
key in our words in SCH at this very minute are being disputed, enacted
and altered on an ever-changing basis to meet and reflect what is to be
considered acceptable norms for society. Hmong have had laws since the
day the name "Hmong" was invented. Laws then, regardless of what
ethnicity or nationality just cannot be compared and applied to today's
daily lives. Slavery for instance, was abolished by Abraham Lincoln in
the 1800's yet our Black Folks weren't really free until it gave rise
to the famous civilized leader Dr. King. American have the finest
architects and have designed the US Constitutions in the finest prints
yet such thing as slavery had been practiced for decades in our own
American land of the free.
I just cannot agree with you that we have had no laws in the past
simply because of the few men
who were too ugly to find their own wives except for pre-arranged and
forced marriages.
phabej
Well said. Let me add just one more word to your point and that is,
there is no "tshum" in Hmong kev zij poj niam.
Phooj ywg Msterious,
I bag to disagree with your point too, that Hmoob kev zij poj niam is
consent by both bride and groom. 99.99% would secretly consent by the
groom side, which mean the groom side had discussed and agreed to pay
whatever it cause during the zij and the wedding price. If it is
consent per your claim, then it will never reach the zij at all.
However, kev zij poj niam is a culturally system that first adopted and
used by Hmong kings-pom luag tej ntxhais mos mos zoo zoo nkauj ces xaj
tub mab tub qhe mus zij (txom/kwv) los ua poj niam xwb. The system then
past down to Hmong leaders and wealthy families only. I am confident
enough to say that the poor families or poor men never (have a chance
to) practice this kev zij poj niam due they would not have money to tus
(bribe)niam tais if niam tuaj caum ntaus ntxhais rov qab.
Is it a legal practice? No, it never legal to the the Hmong females
especially the girls. Is it an acceptable practice? Yes, it is
culturally accept by the Hmong back then.
tee...@hotmail.com
Somehow I do not believe that knowing Hmong culture or language is a
prerequisite to being a scholar or learned person. Of course, I would
expect a Hmong languist to speak Hmong at the level of expertise
required at his level of training. However, I would not apply the same
to a Hmong mathematician, physicist, doctor, or any professional whose
area of expertise is unrelated to Hmong culture or language.
In fact, we have some highly educated Hmong in America who speak and
write broken English. Yet, they have passed the test in their
profession. Thus, their broken English is not a basis to disqualify
them. As professionalism becomes more specialized, expertise in one
area may not necessarily assure expertise in another area, even closely
related fileds.
Teev
Ncaimtseemnco
If laws are the dispute issue in here, then I can tell you right now
that you absolutely have no case.
You are correct and I agree that we cannot compare laws from today to
the past. However, I say it again, we Hmong had NO (zero) written laws
in the past. We had no Court system. All civil and criminal cases
were handled over to the leader or the elders to solve. Because of
this, leej twg muaj kwvtij coob thiab muab nyiaj coj mus xiab (them)
rau tus thawj coj (e.g. Nainpab, Tojxeem, CobMoos..) ntawd ces nws yeej
xwb. This is not a law.
For the Zij Pojniam issue, it is the exact same thing. I understand
that Hmong did have an informal process or procedure that they have to
go through on a zij pojniam case and any other marriage cases. Thaum
tuav tau tus ntxhais lawm los yog zij tus ntxhais mus txog tsev lawm,
tog tub yuav tsum tau tuaj mus nrog tog ntxhais sij tham kom haum tso
mas tog tub thiaj yuav tau tus ntxhais. But this is not the issue.
Qhov teeb meem yog qhov hais tias, tus ntxhais yeej tsis yeem thiab tej
zaum tus ntxhais niam thiab txiv los yeej tsis yeem, tab sis tsoom
kwvtij thiab lawv tus coj ci li yuam kom lawv yeem xwb vim tog tub yog
lawv pawg kwvtij ntawd ib yig neej tsa zoo zoo lawm. This is the
problem and this is not a law. This is not how laws work.
-Cha
-Cha.
Tshua
That's better! "Hmong had NO (zero) written laws."
Hmong have been evolved with arbitrational laws without a choice; we
did not have our written language established until the late 40's or
early 50's. But, our oral laws were just as effective for Hmong as
written laws. Try commit an adultery or having an affair with another
married woman and you would definitely feel the effectiveness of the
law. Try to murder and try to steel. "Zero laws" based on what you
said before would mean that Hmong could not prosecute such crime.
I am grateful to be a Hmong; I am amazed and greatly impressed by the
elders' natural intellect and capibility of having extensive
information like rhymes, zajtshoob, txivxaiv, and spiritual rites
embedded in their heads. I certainly cannot do that.
If you were to raise the issue of coercive and pre-arranged marriage,
you have to bring both sides to the issue to be fair. True, some women
have lost their lives directly as the result of involuntary marriage,
but simultaneously far too many unconsented marriages have become quite
successful; they have fulfilled such blessings: "muaj cuajtxwg tub
mab, yimtxwg tub qhe; muaj cuableeg tub, yim-leej ntxhais; khwv nyiaj
los puv nas, tu tsiaj txhu los puv nkuaj thiab qoob loo los puv txhab;
nyob vamntws li xub ntab, nroontws li xub muv." I am not sure what kind
of marriage your parents have but over half of our parents' marriages
have been pre-arranged or pursuasive.
One of the primary reasons this seemingly forced marriage tradition
existed in Hmong culture was because Hmong are very proud people and we
have great pride when it comes to feelings and our privacy. Tejlaus
thaum ub mas lawv yeej tsis hais tejlus li peb hais niaj hnub no: "I
LOVE YOU & YOU LOVE ME." Lawv ua pajlug hais rau hauv tej kwvtxhiaj
lus taum: "Niam leejntxhais, cas tus me cua tuaj, cua yuav tshuab tau
rev me nplooj zeeg los tus me kav yuav tsis qhuav. Ntshai kuv twb tsis
yog koj me xabyeeb phoojywg es kuv zov koj txog ntujteb taghmo tavlino
los kuv hais koj thiaj tsis yuav."
Niam leejntxhais yuav txais ntua lino: "txiv leejtub, niamleej ntxhais
ces twb tsis yog ibleeg tub es yuav los tuav leejniam leejtxi tus ncej
dab, niam leejntxhais yog rev mes nplooj xwb twb tsis yog ib tug kav,
txiv leejtub hais tiag los hais dag. Hais tiag ces niam leejntxhais
yuav yog txiv leejtub tus me tav."
NkaujHmoob mas luag txawm nyiam, nyiam koj los luag yeej tsis lees.
Koj yuav tau ib nyuagzij mas luag thiaj kam nrog koj mus....
phabej
Koj hais yog kawg lawm. Hmoob lub neej hais txog plaub ntug poj niam
muaj txiv sib deev hluas nraug (tsis hais tub hluas los sij txiv neej
muaj poj niam) ces ib roog hais lawm ib yam hos 10 rooj los yeej hais
lawm 10 yam (no consistency), piv txwv, cov txwj laug yuav txiav plaub
li nram qab no:
Rooj 1, yuam tus hluas nraug los them ib tug nqi nyab tshiab rau tus
poj niam ntawv tus txiv.
Rooj 2, yuam tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv mus cuab phiaj
rau tus txiv sim phom.
Rooj 3, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv khi siab tshav
ntuj kom tuag mus.
Rooj 4, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv khi nram tswg rau
nyuj/nees cab dua kom 2 nkhib ntuag plam tuag mus.
Rooj 5, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv hlais ciaj ib
daig zuj zus pleev ntsev kom tuag.
Rooj 6, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv pam nyoos sib
tshooj ntawm nees ntoos kom tuag mus.
Rooj 7, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv yoo ntshaib kom
tuag mus.
Rooj 8, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv hle liab qab yuam
kom nkawv ua dev ua npua rau zej zog saib.
Rooj 9, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv coj mus faus
nyoos rau hauv qhov av.
Rooj 10, muab tus hluas nraug thiab tus poj niam ntawv cuab pob tw rau
tus txiv los xuas tsuas npuj nkawv qhov quav qhov zis kom tuag mus.
... and more...
Where's the law or laws to punish such crime?
Ncaimtseemnco
The only reason why cov ntxhais raug zij ntawd lam mus ua lub neej nrog
cov tub, muaj me tub me nyuam los vim they (these girls) had absolutely
no (zero) choice. They either married the guys or died.
Now we have talked a lot about many other stuff here, but don't forget
the point of the discussion.
To conclude this, let's go back to the point of the discussion.
The point is today we cannot practice kidnapped/forced marriages and
underage married (yuav/deev me nyuam ntxhais).
Yesterday was yesterday. Today is today. Regardless of how successful
or unsuccessful our Hmong kidnapping/forcing married couples (zij
pojniam) and Cov txiv yuav thiab deev tus pojniam tsis tau muaj hnub
nyoog were in the past, we simply CANNOT practice these acts here, in
the US where formal/written laws existed.
I have to say that many times I do agree that the way (the lawless way)
we Hmong handled our issues, especially disciplining kids in the past
worked better than today. But the point here is not about good or bad.
The point here is about can or cannot do. And it is unfortunate that
we can't practice these things here anymore while we are living in a
modern country where formal/written laws existed.
-Cha.
-Cha.
Tshua
Just precisely why many pre-arranged and coercive marriages were
successful remain to be further reviewed. There is a saying,
"where there is a will, there is a way." I doubt there is only one
reason why these women accepted the involuntary vows. I've heard of
women who chose suicide as a choice, no doubt about it, but I have also
heard of several testimonials from those who escaped and lived happily
with their lovers. Apparently, they did have other choices besides
death. They could escape, divorce, or just plainly threaten the men
with resentment of their marriage vows and leave.
Did I derail our point of focus? I, too, do not condone pre-arranged
or forced marriage; there is not a choice nowady or is there?
If I'm missing the point, please be more specific. Where in America do
forced marriages with under aged girls still exist without some kind of
consequence or as a norm? As far as I can tell in Michigan, such case
if occurred becomes an individual issue rather than a whole society
problem. Is it just to say that Anglo-Saxon Americans still practice
slavery when some nanny have reported about abusive bosses just because
Whites have practiced slavery in the past? Is it just to say that
Arabic Americans kill their children for disobediency just because it
was a practice common to their culture in the Arab Nations? I
personally will not and cannot allow myself and Hmong people to be
condemned for behaviors that existed in pre-historic time.
StickRice
choice.
We Hmong are not LAWLESS and have never been.
LAWLESS implies a state of anarchy where everyone did as they pleased
and without regard to others. Using that word to describe Hmong
actions, be it marriages or childrearing--anything Hmong for that
matter--is irresponsible.
Hmong couldn't skip to the next village and kill someone without
impunity. Hmong couldn't steal another's farm animals without
consequences. Hmong society has always had rules. (Western scholars
call them "cultural practices" from a lack of better
understanding.)
The difference between Hmong and most westerners is that our rules for
Hmong civil society were not CODIFIED. They weren't written down.
As a matter of fact, English law at one time had to be codified from a
state of existence not much different from the Hmong. (I think it was
called ENGLISH COMMON LAW from which American law is derived.)
Just as scholars who are Hmong, but whose training have not been on
Hmong studies, should carefully measure their commentary on their own
people, the rest of us need to be more careful when we are describing
(or are talking about) Hmong. Especially when we're looking at Hmong
culture from a western-centered perspective.
-Frank Lis
Ncaimtseemnco wrote:
> Tshua,
HmoobHlubHmoob
more of them to keep the mind from the action. it seem here academic
and choices of big words are valuable then making a decision and
following through. this forum satisfied the mind, but the soul is void
of justice.
i am just a god damn kid and forgive me if you can, but i don't think
we need to understand these complex reasonings to what and why.
we just need to do something simple for everyone to solve our problems
and that is to simply have compassion for one another.
hmong gangsters have compassion for nongangster hmong
hmong parents have compassion for their kids
Hmong kids have compassion for their elders
hmong clans have compassion for other clans
hmong cops have compassion for hmong civilians
hmong scholar have compassion for uneducated hmong
hmong christian have compassion for nonchristian hmong
Hmong politician have compassion for its contingents
Hmong bussiness have compassion for its hmong customers
hmong customers have compassion for hmong businesses
the list goes on but always wit compassion.
the hmong people don't lack intelligent, wealth, or power, they lack
compassion. we must not have fear because we can do this. one person at
a time. sometime two or three people at a time. but we can do it, even
if we have to defy the world with compassion, we must, because there is
nothing greater then to die as a result of compassion.
Mysterious King
My points, exactly as you stated. Scholars should be specific and NOT
generalist. They should speak to their field of expertise. There are
some, because they have attain high level of education, assumes they
could speak about the Hmong culture/practices to the White media, when,
in fact, they know nothing about Hmong culture/practices.
Due to their ignorance and desire for sound bites, often the White
media/authors employed what Hmong "scholars" said about Hmong as truth
about the Hmong people. This is what I mean when I said others are
using Hmong scholars as weapons against the Hmong people.
Because of the careless statements our Hmong "role models" make, Hmong
youths have become totally disoriented. It is said that "with great
power, comes great responsibility". Many "scholars" are very
irresponsible when they generalize about Hmong. Many youths have
rejected themselves because some scholars stated that being Hmong is
bad, although Hmong is not the scholars field of expertise. Put it
simply, you may know some Hmong anthropologist who know much about
other cultures/people, yet, know little about their own culture/people.
You may know some linguist who are fluent in other languages, yet do
not speak their own tongue. What little they know about Hmong
culture/people they make generalized statements that others can use to
bash Hmong. This is what I mean.
Scholars, doctors, educators, mathematicians, etc. need to stick to
their field of expertise. If they must speak about Hmong, they need to
learn about Hmong because there are gems and treasures within Hmong
culture worthy of our learning devotion.
Hmong-Lao
Li neb hais los yeej yog kawg lawm thiab. Tab sis li Mysteriousking
thiab Tshua nkawv hais ntshe yuav yog dua. Hmoob yeej muaj laws
(un-written laws) thiab kev zij poj niam yeej yog tau kev tso cai los
ntawm tus ntxhais.
Yav thaud, kev sib caum yog ib qhov kev poob ntsej poob muag rau tog
ntxhais, yog li ntawd, cov ntxais feem ntau prefered nqis tsev hais,
tuav, los sis zij. Raws li Hmoob txoj kev cai (poj ua tseg yawm ua cia
= Hmong un-written law), kev tuav thiab zij poj niam, yuav tsum yog tus
tub thiab tus ntxhais nkawv yeej yeem lawm mam tuav los sis mam zij.
Yog leej twg lam zij luag tej ntxais yam tus ntxhais tsis yeem, leej
ntawd yuav raug nplua kho niam kho txiv, kho nom kho tswv, kho tus
ntxhais ntawd, thiab tseem tsis tau yuav tus ntxais ntawd qees. Ua ntej
koj zij ib tug poj niam, koj yuav tsum hais tus ntxhais seb nws puas
yeem yuav koj tso. Thaum nws yeem lawm (see "Yeem" below), neb yuav
tsum muaj tej yam khoom dab tsi los ua puav pheej, peb sij hu ua "haum
= khoom (laotian)". Tiam sis muaj ntau rooj uas tus ntxhais raug luag
dag thiab ntxias kom txais luag li haum yam uas nws twb tsis ras txog
hais tias qhov ntawd ces yog puav pheej. Cov zoo li no yeej tsis ncaj
rau tus ntxhasi lawm, tiam sis, luag tej laus, tej coj plaub tsaws ntug
tsuas xyuas qhov pov thawj xwb. Yog li ntawd, muaj ntau tus ntxhais
thiaj raug yuam yuav yam tsis raug raws txoj kev ncaj ncees lawm.
Yeem: Hmoob yav thaud ces yeej ua li Tshua hais xwb. Lawv nyiam ua paj
lug hais xwb. Txawm tus ntxhais yeem thiab tsis yeem los koj yeej tsis
paub. Vim yav thaud Hmoob yeej tsis nyiam hais lus ncaj nraim. Piv txwv
hais tias muaj ib co tub hluas, ib tug zuj zus mus nug ib tug ntxhais
seb nws puas nyiam thiab puas kam yuav lawv mas nws lo lus teb yeej
mostly "yes", tiam sis hauv nws lub siab mas zaum puav thiaj tseem
tseem yog mean "yes" xwb. Yog lawv ho nug seb nws puas tau muaj hluas
nraug no mas nws los lu teb yeej mostly "no", tiam sis hauv nws lub
siab tej zaum twb muaj ib tug kav rawv lawm. Yog nws yeem tiag ces nws
yuav tsum txais koj li puav pheej mas thiaj yog nws yeem yuav koj lawm
tiag. Hos rau txheej hluas teb chaws no mas "no means no, yes means
yes".
HL
phabej
Hais txog ntawm Hmong kab li cev cai ces yeej yog li koj, Tshua, thaib
Myst. hais lawm, tias Hmoob tsis muaj written laws. Tab sis qhov phooj
ywg Cha wb hais no mas vim hais tias Hmoob tej kab lis kev cai yeej
tsis consistent li. Li kuv hais, 10 rooj plaub poj niam deev hluas los
Hmoob cov txwj laug yeej tu plaub thiab txiav txim lawm 10 yam li.
Kev zij poj niam, kev nqis tsev hais, thiab kev coj poj niam mas sib
txawv deb heev. Kev zij poj niam mas tus ntxhais ntawv txawm yeem thiab
tsis yeem, tau lus thiab tsis tau, tau khoom thiab tsis tau los Hmoob
cia li zij xwb. Muaj tej tus mas kuj lias tau lus, tau khoom, tab sis
yeej tsis tau "yeem" li los Hmoob cia li txhom/zij/kwv mus yuam ua poj
niam li lawm. Kev coj poj niam ces yeej yog li phooj ywg Charlie hais,
tias yus yuav tau ib nyuag cab tus ntxhais ntawv tes mas luag thiaj
muaj phlus nrog yus mus. Tab sis ntawv tsis tau mean tias "zij" ntawv
hmoob hais ias yog coj poj niam no xwb. Hos kev nqis tsev hais mas
thiaj li yog li koj hais, tias yuav tsum tau khoom kas tuav ntawm tes
los sis tau lus tseeb ntawm tus ntxhais tab sis tus ntxhais tsis kam
coj kab noog tsis quaj tug xwb. Ntawv Hmoob hais tias tus ntxhais xav
yuav ntsej muag los sis tus ntxhais niam txiv xav yuav tau ntsej
muag/lub sam xeeb mas thiaj li yuav tsum tau mus nqis tsev hais.
Tej kuv tsis paub Hmoob kab lis kev cai xwb ho?
phwvnyawm
Hais txog peb cov poj niam hmoob thaum ub nyob yav ntuj qub qab pheej
rau tsim txom ces yog tim txoj kev dag xwb.
1. Tim tej laus yeej ib txwm tsis pab cov ntxhais,luag hais tiag los
dag, lawv cov laus yeej tsis mloog li tsuas muab tej ntxhais yuam kom
ua li cov laus hais xwb.
2. Cov ntxhais tag kev cia siab lawm,cescov ntxhais thiaj ua neeg tsis
meej pem.Thaum tiag los zoo li yog dag,hais dag los zoo li tiag.Tej
laus lam kwv yees ua mus thiaj muaj tej tus thiaj raug kev tsim txom
tag lub neej.Hais ntau tej laus tseem hais tias yog nws phem xwb...
Muab piv tswv: Ib tug hluas nkauj nws thiab tus tub yeej sib-b nyiam
heev kom nws cia li los zoo-oo mas nws yeej tsis kam kiag,yuav tseev
kom zij xwb,zij tsis paub kev los nws tseem qhia tib si,zij mas tseem
tsa suab hlo quaj nrov-v thiab, niag no yog dag xav tau ntsej muag xwb.
Muaj tej tus nws yeej tsis kam luag cia li tuaj dag tias mus ua si cia
li kwv los lawm tsheej hnub, nws hais npaum li cas los tej laus tsis
pab.
Cov poj niam cia li ua neeg dag lawm:
Piv lis kuv mus tham tau ib tus hluas nkauj:Yeej nyiam kuv heej thaum
yuav ua nws mas nws yeej tsis kam kiag li,ko mas nws kam ntag tib si
yog yuav ua mas tsis pub txawm tsis pub.Kuv kawg mos, muab nws mos-s
plaub hau ntxhov tag mas mam tau ua,thaum tau kiag lawm nws ho khawm
yus ceev heev tseem pab yus ib nrab thiab qhov no niag ntxhais nws dag
xwb (muaj phlus) thaum nyob tim ub mas cov niag ntxhais yeej ntxim ua
qhov phem xwb.Tab sis lub caij peb tuaj nyob teb chaw no cov ntxhais
yuav tau los hais qhov tseeb txhob coj li cov laus tim ub lawm.
Peb twb muaj ntau rooj plaub nyob Ca. hais txog tom Court es luag nug
tias nej cov hmoob thaum yuav sib deev yeej tsis hais kom yeem-m mam
deev los? Kuv twb tau hais ntau zaus rau cov tub ceev xwm tias cov poj
hmoob loj hlob tim ub tuaj lawv yeej tsi hais (Yes) rau koj li nawb
,nws twb yeem-m los nws tseem hais tias (No) no nawb.Thaum twg tsis
hais lus, tsis teb ces yog yeem lawm ntag cia li xuas tes hais lawm xwb
txhob ua suab li lawm nawb...lawv luag tsis tsi tau, ua cas yuav tsis
hais kom yeem-m mam ua maj...kuv teb tias peb hmoob cov laus yeej ib
txwm coj li ntawd los lawm.
Vim muaj ntau rooj plaub cov ntxhais thiab tus tub sib deev tag tus tub
khiav mus yuav lwm tus ces nws khib...nws thiaj mus dag rau tub ceev
xwm tias yawg thaub ntawd (Rape) nws muab nws txhom qhov ub qhov
no...thaum chiv thawv 1-2 cases ces luag ua kub ua ceev ntes tus tub
mus kaws...tom qab no luag paub yus cov neeg zoo luag thiaj paub tias
ib txhia yog dag xwb...Yuav ntes leej twg los yuav tau ua zoo xyuas.
Sawv daws yuav tau qhia rau tej ntxhais txij no mus yuav tau hais qhov
tseeb,thiab tej niam tej txiv los yuav tau pab cov ntxhais thiab thaum
hais qhov tseem lawd yuav tau tuaj lawv tog.
Ua tsaug
Phwvnyawm
cyndi
I think you are confused. You contradicted yourself when you said "Zij
pojniam", in the truest of its meaning, is a marriage ritual, often
performed with consent by both parties. The contradicting word here is
OFTEN. If it's only OFTEN that zij pojniam is consentual then the
other times are essentially kidnapping. Now think about it because if
both parties consent to marriage then there would be no need to zij.
She will come with you willingly. If you have to zij nws ces txhais
tau hais tias nws tsis xav yuav koj" and this is kidnapping. I think
what you were really trying to say here is eloping - running off
together and getting married.
I personally is against zij pojniam as a way to obtain a wife because
I've heard all too often horrific stories of Hmong girls being zij by
their groom to be. It's sad and heartbreaking because these girls
probably already have a boyfriend already. Plus, they just don't love
him. This tradition should be eliminated from Hmong culture because it
is a horrible way to get yourself a wife. Imagine if your girlfriend
was zij. I bet you would be devastated. Or better yet, if it was
turned around and guys could be zij - women could "zij txiv" - imagine
being forced to marry a woman you don't even like or love. How would
it feel? So guys, NEVER ZIJ POJNIAM because I know you guys aren't
that ugly to find someone who'd love and appreciate you for who you
are.
Cyn
to...@witty.com
Mysterious King, you give to much credit to those Hmong Ph D. and so
forth, but the article that you releated to wasn't from any Hmong
Hi-Ed. It is from a Hmong college kid. An obedient homing Hmong kid.
She is not in exception, she is just like any freshman college kid
(Hmong or none Hmong) who enjoy her freedom (without her parents on her
shoulder) for the first time. Actually, she doesn't seem to understand
the out side world at all. Any culture are hard, not only Hmong. The so
call American white culture are much more difficul, if you want to be a
good family and only these few good family that rule the great USA.
Only those one with no brain or have brain but not sight believe that
Amerincan culture are easy. Here is some hints:
- study the Ford family history.
- study the Kennedy family history.
- study the Bush family history.
These just a few family who rule America, they has their own set of
family culture rules. The family are high when every member follow the
rule. The family are low when someone breaking the rules. The Hmong
national are very small, we all are a family (brother- and sisterhood;
kwvtij neejtsa). Therefore we have our own set of rule to govern our
family. And our family is our national identity.
This girl are in the mist of 2 indifference cultures, she presume that
one are harder than other are purly ignorance or lack of understand.
Her first paragraph mislead her audience that most of Hmong kids today
are runaway kids or trouble kids and make believe that she is the few
who make it to college. This is an old Hmong attitude (showoff; khav
theeb). Fact is that more first generation Hmong kids (from parents who
can't read or write) go to college then any other race in the USA
history.
Any way, her article is a piece of mystify beauty of Hmong culture.
Thank for posting.
avan...@yahoo.com
community and society who depend on each other for survival as a group
or "haiv". Anything else is of other's culture. The educated Hmong in
America does not run the hmong culture. The issue exists in the media
is american-hmong culture or "cooked hmong". The "raw hmong' still
stick to their own culture and solve their own problem as a group and
not as individual.