Kamehameha Schools: Elitist Country Club
TR
I know that this is a pretty contraversial subject. There were many
kids from my homestead that couldn't get into The Kamehameha Schools
because they just didn't score hugh enough on the entrance exams. It
wasn't their fault that their makua did not push them to study. How
could they see what was ahead without education.
What really made me upset while I attended the school, was seeing many
students who did not appreciate where they were.
I disagree with the fact that applicants to the schools are not judged
by merit and potential, but by what kind of score they can make on a
test.
As for the trustees, what is the going salary for people in their
position? I always thought they were making too much money!
I remember when I was first informed that I was accepted. I told one of
my friends, and they said, "Now you can go and be one of those high
makamaka people." Although I've made many friends while I was there, I
must agree with my friend, there are many Kamehameha students who look
down on other Hawaiians, because they're supposedly stupid.
Is that the kind of attitude that these "future leaders" of Hawaii are
meant to have? How will this attitude help bring all of the Hawaiians
together?
headrush
[moderators note: newsgroups trimmed back to soc.culture.hawaii,
alt.culture.hawaii, and hawaii.education]
Don't you think that these same problems exist in every culture that has a
similar private school? I'm not saying its a good reason but it always
seems that the basic values of the individuals and societies as a whole
need some change(s).
TR (t...@adnc.com) wrote:
: I know that this is a pretty contraversial subject. There were many
Nathan P Yuen
[newsgroups trimmed back to soc.culture.hawaii, alt.culture.hawaii, and
hawaii.education]
TR (t...@adnc.com) wrote:
: I know that this is a pretty contraversial subject. There were many
: kids from my homestead that couldn't get into The Kamehameha Schools
: because they just didn't score hugh enough on the entrance exams. It
: wasn't their fault that their makua did not push them to study. How
: could they see what was ahead without education.
You raise some good points here. The value of education must be
instilled at a young age. Parents, the community, and the larger
society must stress its importance.
: What really made me upset while I attended the school, was seeing many
: students who did not appreciate where they were.
Alas... it is the way of youth, who have no point of reference from which
to see things as they really are, to take things for granted. Perhaps
parents should not shield their children as much from seeing how other
people live who are less fortunate than themselves live. Perhaps this
would assist our youth to develop a broader perspective.
: I remember when I was first informed that I was accepted. I told one of
: my friends, and they said, "Now you can go and be one of those high
: makamaka people." Although I've made many friends while I was there, I
: must agree with my friend, there are many Kamehameha students who look
: down on other Hawaiians, because they're supposedly stupid.
I believe it has to do with subtle messages perpetuated in the larger
society which generally held hawaiians in low regard when it came to
education.
: Is that the kind of attitude that these "future leaders" of Hawaii are
: meant to have? How will this attitude help bring all of the Hawaiians
: together?
It seems to me that everyone (Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian alike) must
participate in changing the attitudes we may have held in the past.
Discussions like this are a first step so we can realize how wrong they
are and how we must proceed to change things. Alas... there is so much
work to be done.
--
o o __ __
\ / ' ` Mai hehi ia'u (Don't Tread on Me!)
Chirp! |/ / __ \
Chirp! -- (` \ ' ' \ ' Nathan Yuen, Ewa Beach, Hawaii
\ \| | @_/ |
\ \ \ /--/ ny...@lava.net, ny...@aloha.net
` ___ ___ ___ __ '
Dayle Turner
TR (t...@adnc.com) wrote:
: What really made me upset while I attended the school, was seeing many
: students who did not appreciate where they were.
What did these students do to lead you to the assumption that they "did
not appreciate where they were"?
While a student at KS, I wasn't one to sing praises of the institution. I
also suppose I could have studied harder and been more respectful to some
of my teachers. If, as a result, I could be categorized as one of the
non-appreciative masses, then, shoot, half the student body were like me.
In hindsight, I now know what a good educational environment I was in at
Kamehameha. Years later, I appreciate the opportunities KS afforded me.
I think the individuals TR refers to will probably come to the same
realization.
: Although I've made many friends while I was there, I
: must agree with my friend, there are many Kamehameha students who look
: down on other Hawaiians, because they're supposedly stupid.
I've been affiliated with the Schools for just about my entire life--as a
student, coach, and alum. And not once have I met a KS student (or alum,
or staff member, for that matter) who "look(s) down on other Hawaiians,
because they're supposedly stupid." If it's true that "many" students at
Kamehameha regard other Hawaiians as stupid--and I have big doubts such
is the case at KS--the mindset of the recent vintage of the Blue and White
ohana (I'm assuming that TR is a recent grad and is referring to his or
her contemporaries) must have soured.
: How will this attitude help bring all of the Hawaiians together?
It won't--if the attitude really exists. Without compelling evidence,
I don't think it does.
--DKT (Kamehameha '76)
: Dayle Kalama Turner |=|=|=| Leeward Community College :
: Language Arts Division |=|=|=| 96-045 Ala Ike :
: tur...@hawaii.edu |=|=|=| Pearl City, Hawaii 96782 :
: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~turner/ |=|=|=| Phone: (808) 455-0258 :
helen a.
I have met many many students of Kam School and I must say they were
snobs in their own right!
They thought or think they are high and mighty Hawaiians and the
Hawaiians that don't attend Kam School are treat by the students like
they are lower classed hawaiians.
My opinion. I have cousins that attended kam School and they too act as
if they are better than the others in the family.
Chris Kintz
On 14 Jul 1996 02:20:07 GMT,
"helen a." <kil...@whidbey.net> wrote:
: I have met many many students of Kam School and I must say they were
: snobs in their own right!
I personally think it's a common problem of any private school. The
kids are always gonna think they're better the the kids in public
schools.
-Chris
"Geeze man, lose that useless, stupid, utterly boneheaded .sig!"
- Me, in an amazing flash of hypocrisy.
Terrance
In article <4s9lgn$p...@mochi.lava.net>,
"helen a." <kil...@whidbey.net> wrote:
>
>I have met many many students of Kam School and I must say they were
>snobs in their own right!
Then you must of met some special cases then, or Maybe you could of come
across as a Snob yourself ever think of that? I tend to disagree with you on
this generalization I find that some people who you may think came across as a
snob tended to be just a particular person or actually are proud of attending
a institution where they think is good. It's entirely possible I could come
across to you then if talking about colleges and where we went that you would
think I'm a snob if You went to somewhere else and I said I went to U.H. I
don't belive that is a fair assumption when you haven't met very many people
who have Graduated from Kamehameha Schools.
>
>
>They thought or think they are high and mighty Hawaiians and the
>Hawaiians that don't attend Kam School are treat by the students like
>they are lower classed hawaiians.
>
>My opinion. I have cousins that attended kam School and they too act as
>if they are better than the others in the family.
>
I really don't feel this when I've spoken to many of them including my own
cousins. If you would say this then you would have to expand this to all
schools because many have a sense of pride in their own schools whether the
school is the best or not having gone to a public school I have no less pride
of attending it because having been there it help shape who I am and I am
proud that I am who I am I don't think that is no less of any one else who has
been a active part of their school.
TR
I am not a Kamehameha School graduate.
The views I expressed were my interpretations of the feelings and
attitudes of the students who surrounded me. As I have stated, these
feelings were not presented to me by all 2000 or so students who were
attending the high school at the time that I was there, but there were
enough students whom I perceived had these feelings, toward other
Hawaiians who could not get into the school, so as to allow me to put
them into the category of "many".
Now maybe I got unlucky throughout my two years spent there and tapped
into the select minority who actually did feel this way, but this is the
general consensus which I used to shape my perception of the school. As
my former Executive Officer used to say, Perception Is Reality!
Although I admire what Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop did, in setting up
the school strictly for Hawaiians, why does it just have to be for the
brightest? Why can't the foundation help those who are the most in
need. The other 9 children who could not make it into Kamehameha?
Keith K. Higa
In article <4s7u4m$r...@mochi.lava.net>, tur...@Hawaii.Edu (Dayle Turner) wrote:
:: Although I've made many friends while I was there, I
:: must agree with my friend, there are many Kamehameha students who look
:: down on other Hawaiians, because they're supposedly stupid.
:
:I've been affiliated with the Schools for just about my entire life--as a
:student, coach, and alum. And not once have I met a KS student (or alum,
:or staff member, for that matter) who "look(s) down on other Hawaiians,
:because they're supposedly stupid." If it's true that "many" students at
:Kamehameha regard other Hawaiians as stupid--and I have big doubts such
:is the case at KS--the mindset of the recent vintage of the Blue and White
:ohana (I'm assuming that TR is a recent grad and is referring to his or
:her contemporaries) must have soured.
Well, I can offer anecdotal evidence from my current experience as a
summer school teacher at Kailua HS. I have one kid in my class (of 31
students...yikes!) who is from Kamehameha. At least from what he shows
in class, he has an attitude of "I'm better than everyone else, and
I don't want to associate with the public school ruffians." He will
even refuse to pass papers to his neighbors without my prodding. Needless
to say, that attitude grates on my students...most of the others in my
class have expressed a dislike toward him. And it also grates on me,
as the teacher.
However, I do believe that not every Kamehameha student is like that...
I have another KS student in my class and he is reasonably respectful.
If he does have that attitude, he doesn't show it. The same goes for two
other private school students in my class.
Keith K. Higa | Kailua, Hawaii, USA | PGP encrypted Email OK
hi...@aloha.net | http://www.aloha.net/~higak/ | Finger for PGP Key
------------------------------------------------------------------------
They say I gotta learn, but nobody's here to teach me.
If they can't understand me, how can they reach me?
--Coolio, "Gangsta's Paradise"
Panderer
Aloha kakou,
I think it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about feelings
here, not necessarily facts. It's natural to feel good about graduating,
from anywhere... and if you do so from a first rate institution such as
Kamehameha School, well so much the more so...
That doesn't invalidate the feelings that other Hawaiians who were not
so fortunate might have about opportunities they were, for whatever
reason, denied. It's natural that they project their disappointment
upon the more fortunate ones in the form of resentment. The slightest
breach of manners, under these conditions tends to be interpreted as
snobbishness, whether it is intended that way or not.
Anti intellectualism is an unfortunate consequence of the policy of
Bishop Estate which makes educational benefits available only to the
brightest of Hawaiian children. For reasons that are unclear, they have
chosen to interpret their responsibility to be only to the subset of
Hawaiian children who are not beset by learning disabilities (or even
merely average intelligence). It's a narrow vision of the goal of
education, and one which they inherited, I suspect, from the last
century. Under this policy, students with special needs are dealt
with by exclusion, leaving them to be educated by the taxpayers at
large in underfunded public schools. To be fair, I understand that
up until recently the Bishop Estate did make a small contribution to
the public school system to help fund special education programs for
Hawaiian children, but even this was discontinued recently by the board,
according to a newspaper story I read a few weeks back.
Is it really so surprising that this would tend to erect a barrier within
the Hawaiian community? It's a barrier that may be difficult to see for
those who are fortunate enough to qualify for these benefits, but very
evident to the ones who are less lucky.
If someone calls you a snob, it might be their own disappointment and
pain they're talking about, not you (unless it's true, of course).
Aloha,
jesse
Zita Maria Evensen
TR (t...@adnc.com) writes:
<snip for brevity>
>> is the case at KS--the mindset of the recent vintage of the Blue and White
>> ohana (I'm assuming that TR is a recent grad and is referring to his or
>> her contemporaries) must have soured.
>>
>> : How will this attitude help bring all of the Hawaiians together?
>>
>> It won't--if the attitude really exists. Without compelling evidence,
>> I don't think it does.
>>
>> --DKT (Kamehameha '76)
>
<snip for brevity >
> Although I admire what Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop did, in setting up
> the school strictly for Hawaiians, why does it just have to be for the
> brightest? Why can't the foundation help those who are the most in
> need. The other 9 children who could not make it into Kamehameha?
>
KS has pretty impressive surroundings - so I can see why
students would be proud to go there. What I am wondering
about is -- if the KS endowment is so huge -- aren't all
Hawaiian students entitled to be enrolled in KS? Wasn't
that the original purpose of Princess Bernice's 'gift'
to her people.
Just curious.
/z.
BAYCITVIDGRP
In <4s6juq$7...@mochi.lava.net>,
TR <t...@adnc.com> writes:
: What really made me upset while I attended the school, was seeing many
: students who did not appreciate where they were.
Thought: how many graduates of Kam go on to Universities on the
mainland and then when they attend these institutions of
higher learning find that they too are discriminated against
for reasons you have posted here.....for when they were at KAM
they became "too good for the others" and then when away get
return retribution from a society that does not appreciate the
Hawaiian way?
Or is there a Hawaiian Way involved? Is it just not the fears of
those who meet others who are unlike them, no matter if they have
a lei around their neck or a switchblade beneath their belt....?
I think the people of Hawaii, native Hawaiians, get hit from both
sides: those that love them when a tourist in Hawaii as they watch
native Hawaiians on the Hula Stage at the various locations where
money changes hands and then get hit by the other factor of being
away from this element finding that "stereotypes" are rampant in
all facets of society.
personally, this haole thinks the native Hawaiians are in similar
predicament as the native Indians....we killed the Indians and we
kill the Hawaiians by taking away their "lands" which, as the
Indians, are sacred to their culture. Both cultures appreciated
land. Look at what happens to both: they get developed for needs
not conducive to the propogation of the race of people who have
their lands taken away and then the takers look down on them for
not having any identity.....
Kam students you speak of seem to attend Kam with no real history
of sharing their "culture" with each other. why?
It's been developed away from them. But they have the hula.
bill conduit
used liv'm da kine....
albert the panther
Zita Maria Evensen wrote:
: if the KS endowment is so huge
and it is.
: aren't all Hawaiian students entitled to be enrolled
: in KS? Wasn't that the original purpose of Princess Bernice's
: 'gift' to her people.
I think that is the underlying question being asked here.
I just don't think she intended it to be the way it is now.
I don't think that was the idea at all.
But I also very much doubt James Campbell intended for
his "Estate" to turn out the way it has.
Peter Alau
Chris Kintz wrote:
> "helen a." <kil...@whidbey.net> wrote:
>
> : I have met many many students of Kam School and I must say they were
> : snobs in their own right!
>
> I personally think it's a common problem of any private school. The
> kids are always gonna think they're better the the kids in public
> schools.
This thread has opened many controversial doors and separate issues, all
of which have been debated for many years. In the interest of brevity
and saving bandwidth, I will only address the issue of snobery at
Kamehameha.
The Kamehameha Schools diligently push the notion of PRIDE among it's
students. It is taught due to the history of shame that the Hawaiian
people were taught to feel by the reigning powers in Hawaii after
annexation. The notion of pride is taught about the Hawaiian heritage,
language, culture, and history.
An unfortunate side effect of this type of education is the immediate
sense of social inflation. My opinion is that this is due to the age
factor, and not intentional. Remember that these are young, untrained,
relatively inexperienced minds. The notion that they (the students) are
the descendants of a proud and long heritage (when such notions did not
exist before attending the school) would inflate one's purpose of
existance, and reason for being. Thus and untrained mind would instantly
associate this sense of heritage with superiorty. It is also good to
note that these are high-school students who - like every high school
student -are looking for some part of themselves which is unique and
individual.
With time and life-experience, these feeling mature into a deeper sense
of pride, one that does not look upon others with superiority, but with
a greater sense of understanding.
Just my thoughts.
-Peter
Dayle Turner
TR (t...@adnc.com) wrote:
: The views I expressed were my interpretations of the feelings and
: attitudes of the students who surrounded me. As I have stated, these
: feelings were not presented to me by all 2000 or so students who were
: attending the high school at the time that I was there, but there were
: enough students whom I perceived had these feelings, toward other
: Hawaiians who could not get into the school, so as to allow me to put
: them into the category of "many".
I'm curious--when you say "there were enough students whom I
perceived...", roughly how many would "enough" be?
And again, what specifically did these folks do or say to lead you to the
conclusion that they harbored negative feelings about Hawaiians not
affiliated with Kamehameha?
: Now maybe I got unlucky throughout my two years spent there and tapped
: into the select minority who actually did feel this way, but this is the
: general consensus which I used to shape my perception of the school.
Fair enough.
Was there anything positive at all that happened at Kamehameha during your
years there? Sheesh, while at Kamehameha, I remember being ridiculed by
my basketball coach, and kept after school by some teachers because I
didn't do my homework, and harassed by upperclassmen during the first
month of my freshman year. I suppose I could "shape my perception of the
school" on those less than nurturing circumstances. I chose not to,
though.
Instead, I remember with fondness folks such Allen Bailey, Georgette Kala,
William Chai, Harriet Brundage, Donald Mitchell, John Sabas, Florence
Ichinose, Wright Bowman, Esther McClellan, Hugh Clancy, and Myrna
Cundy--teachers and staff members at Kamehameha who helped me even when
there were times I gave them reason not to. I have pleasant KS
recollections of being a kahili bearer in our 6th grade May Day Court, of
marching in the Aloha Week Parade, of winning Song Contest, and more.
These are the people and happenings that I chose to base my perception on.
: As my former Executive Officer used to say, Perception Is Reality!
If it's truly your perception that "many" Kamehameha students do not
appreciate being there and see themselves as superior to other Hawaiians,
I'm saddened by that.
: Although I admire what Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop did, in setting up
: the school strictly for Hawaiians, why does it just have to be for the
: brightest? Why can't the foundation help those who are the most in
: need. The other 9 children who could not make it into Kamehameha?
Perhaps this speaks to the root of your feelings about Kamehameha and many
of the students there.
Aloha,
--DKT
BAYCITVIDGRP
In <4sefah$e...@mochi.lava.net> Peter Alau <pe...@mobius.net> writes:
>
>
annexation. The notion of pride is taught about the Hawaiian heritage,
>language, culture, and history.
>
>An unfortunate side effect of this type of education is the immediate
>sense of social inflation. My opinion is that this is due to the age
>factor, and not intentional.
>student -are looking for some part of themselves which is unique and
>individual.
>
> Good idea Peter.....
I wonder why the American Indians were kept from doing what
the Hawaiian people did for their own. American Indian's
who were proud and of a pure lineage with a unique culture
and many a unique language with very little public history
except the whites who came to their land killed them off over
the years.
American Indians from all tribes cast adrift on reservations
to exist as their chiefs were told to live by rules which they
found antithetical to their culture. The Hawaiians were killed
off by the missionary movement in that their culture was shamed
away from them whereas the Indians were kept in shameful living
quarters on land not suitable for most animals to live on.
At least the Hawaiian ascendants of their culture have a culture
which is passed down with some societal blessing. The American
Indians had their culture sociologically taken away from them
in the course of their people being killed at first up until the
time they surrendered to have further cultural shredding of all
they held dear as Indians.
Whereas local Hawaiians appear SNOBS by outsiders, to themselves
they must have a cultural sense that this is "who they are" and
within their own culture it's not some societal "affront" to be
as reported by outsiders.
The American Indians just as proud and just as rich in ancestral
heritage have only their elder's memories to get information on
from which the younger Indians derive their selfhood from....but
unlike the Hawaiians...American Indians no longer have great
tribal leaders who the young can emulate. In some ways the
Hawaiians do not either.
Going to Kam School makes Hawaiian youth part of a culture that
is respected and taught by people who are adept at that. For the
American Indian...not much is done for their youth as the people
in Hawaii do for theirs.
Two cultures of similar character and love of the land and their
children...two different results totally different.
AT least the Hawaii students at Kam get a continuance to rely on.
The American Indian's heritage is lost....all the elders have
died off before a similar Institution for the Indians could be
staffed by those who lived as an Indian. Not as some nameless
tribal member of a tribe no one can pronounce any more....
The American Indian is being socially deprived of being an Indian
while the Hawaiians are being socially developed in order to keep
their heritage which they will pass down ...
At least the Hawaiian teens have hope of being able to know who
they are and where they came from .... something that the American
Indian is not being given.
Would be nice for the Kam Schools to have a Student Transfer
Program with tribes of American Indians to switch for a semester to
get a better understanding of two similar peoples with similar
hardships by the outside world. Just a thought.
I think the Hawaiian's and the American Indians would enrich
their own lives by this exchange living for a time....
bill conduit
california
>
>
M. Apo
I don't know what school Kam is. In fact I've never heard of it. I
don't see how youd could possibly have met "many many students" if they don't
even exist. However if your are refering to Kamehameha Schools then yes I
can see how you can think that its students are snobs. Kamehameha has
taught many students to be proud of who they are and not to let anyone
tell them different. Not all students are going to realize what an honor
it is to attend such a school. But I would say most will when it's their
time to graduate. Yes it seems a little late but at least they know. I
don't think that private school students think they're better than a
student that attends a public school. I think its adults like you that
put ideas into students heads that they are better than someone else. If
you treat all students all the same then there would be no need to for you
to call antone a snob. In fact many students of private schools have
close friends that attend public schools. they don't treat them any
different than they would to someone who attended their own school.
If being proud to attend a private school or even to be Hawaiian is gounds
for being a snob. Then I must be one too.
On 14 Jul 1996, Chris Kintz wrote:
>
> On 14 Jul 1996 02:20:07 GMT,
> "helen a." <kil...@whidbey.net> wrote:
>
> : I have met many many students of Kam School and I must say they were
> : snobs in their own right!
>
> I personally think it's a common problem of any private school. The
> kids are always gonna think they're better the the kids in public
> schools.
>
>
Panderer
In article <4sfms3$u...@mochi.lava.net>,
my...@ix.netcom.com (BAYCITVIDGRP) wrote:
<nonsense about Indians (sic) snipped>
Uh... Bill,
Do you actually know any Native Americans or did you get *all* this from
the movies?
Aloha,
jesse
Sue Larkin
tur...@Hawaii.Edu (Dayle Turner) wrote:
(snip)
: I suppose I could "shape my perception of the school" on those less than
: nurturing circumstances. I chose not to, though.
: Instead, I remember with fondness folks such Allen Bailey, Georgette Kala,
: William Chai, Harriet Brundage, Donald Mitchell, John Sabas, Florence
: Ichinose, Wright Bowman, Esther McClellan, Hugh Clancy, and Myrna
: Cundy--teachers and staff members at Kamehameha who helped me even when
: there were times I gave them reason not to. I have pleasant KS
: recollections of being a kahili bearer in our 6th grade May Day Court, of
: marching in the Aloha Week Parade, of winning Song Contest, and more.
: These are the people and happenings that I chose to base my perception on.
: As my former Executive Officer used to say, Perception Is Reality!
Ah, yes...the ol' "the glass is half full, not half empty" perception.
Good for you, Dayle.
The Psycho Linguist
On 17 Jul 1996, M. Apo wrote:
>
> I don't know what school Kam is. In fact I've never heard of it.
If there is anything snobbish about Kamehameha students, it's this
insistence that "Kam" as a nickname to "The Kamehameha Schools/Bernice
Pauahi Bishop Estate" or "The Kamehameha Schools" or "Kamehameha Secondary
School" or whichever version of that name applies to you never existed.
Maybe it's something that you don't use, approve of, or tolerate from
others, but to pretend that you have no idea what it refers to is
snobbery. Especially since we don't refer to public school students by
the full name of their schools in many cases. Anybody here a graduate of
Henry J. Kaiser High School? Or did you just go to Kaiser? I have
friends that went to Mid-Pac, Baldwin, HBA, Punahou (with an incorrect
final "u" sound, making it sound like "Punaho"), 'Iolani (with an
incorrect "o" sound, making "'Ialani), and so on. And as far as I know,
every person who insists on "Kamehameha" also uses these nicknames....
I know what school Kam is. And when someone asks me if I went to Kam,
then I say, "Yes, I graduated from Kamehameha, class of '93." No harm to
anyone. And nobody is being a snob...
BAYCITVIDGRP
In <4sgcsi$m...@mochi.lava.net> jda...@aloha.net (John DAmato) writes:
>
>
>BAYCITVIDGRP (my...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>:
>
>: At least the Hawaiian ascendants of their culture have a
culture
>: which is passed down with some societal blessing.
>
>: Whereas local Hawaiians appear SNOBS by outsiders, to
themselves
>: they must have a cultural sense that this is "who they are" and
>: within their own culture it's not some societal "affront" to be
>: as reported by outsiders. [snip]
>
>:
>
>: AT least the Hawaii students at Kam get a continuance to rely
on.
>: The American Indian's heritage is lost....[snip]
>
>: bill conduit
>: california
>
>I don't think you have this quite right.
>
Howzit brah....first thing...I used liv-m Honolulu ago.
Meet many Local people in the jobs i have there. So I
speak from the "heart" knowing that the history of the
Hawaii/American Indians has a corollary.
Introduction of outsiders decimated the populace..this
is known facts which Bishop Museum tours and more speak
of regularly.
I'll draw another picture...no pidgin used...
Hawaiian people are a draw for tourists to come for see
American Indians are a draw for tourists come say "HOW!"
Lovely Hawaiian people seen as doing the Hula on the beaches
of Waikiki. Image taken back...they got to take pictures of
a "HAWAIIAN".....
Lovely American Indians seen as doing their dances to the rain
gods while their family living in adobe huts with beer cans and
cigarrettes as their culture. Images taken back...tourist's
got to take picures of a "American Indian" doing their dances.
At least at Kam Schools there are teachers who don't see their
students this way....nor do they impart this as "your scheme in
the larger picture"....pleasing tourists. At least Kam Student
get to learn more than just "shaking hips" as DONNY BOY sips
Tiny Bubbles....
In the American Indian scheme of things....where do they have
a similar "place to go" for continuum of their culture? This
is why the sharing cultures idea between the two will give both
sides more perspective on WHO THEY ARE as similar .... then the
two can help each other....become better aware of how things
which they share hurt their children similarly.
To get away from being a TOURIST ATTRACTION.....to being a proud
people as both cultures used to be and are straining to attain
today....my idea would give each a help-mate seeing things from
a similar but different perspective.
Again, I never found Kam Students SNOBS....just that they were
at a school which focused more on their culture making them more
aware of themselves a bit more than the normal homogenized guy
or gal walking the streets of Hawaii.
Two cultures which the white man put asunder. Time maybe for
the white man to butt out and allow these people to learn from
similars...that which the white man don't understand, but wish
they could.
to both the Hawaiian and the American Indian the land is very
sacred and part of their identity between themeselves....but in
Hawaii and on the mainland...this land is being taken from them
calling it progress.
Hawaiians doing the Sovereignty movement....American Indians
doing the same movement, failing, then jumping into the Bingo
movement. It's a start. They joined the White Man's game.
What will the Hawaiians join?
bill conduit
>
BAYCITVIDGRP
> Howzit Jesse....
From the source brah....
In Washington State, ORegon
New Mex...etc. Others who
live amoungst same....
American Indians who cannot fish for food out of season because
some state agency says 'no the law says...' or 'my boss says'
you cannot fish....
This socialization process was very acute in the 50's and 60's
when sociologists with all the answers began telling the Indians
the best way to live is the way of the "scholars" who came to
help them.....then got into their Chevey's and went to a hotel
to get some restful sleep....
bill
>
>
>
fletcher
In article <4si8k4$1...@mochi.lava.net>,
my...@ix.netcom.com (BAYCITVIDGRP) wrote:
As far back as I can recall as a kid in northern Minnesota, (and I remember
the day Marilyn Monroe died because I was fishing at Lake Leech with my
grandpa, so that's pretty far back) the Indians who lived there were
regarded as shiftless, no-account, untrustworthy and alcoholic. Everyone
"knew" that, it was just a given. Indian children were fostered out to
white families and the ones I knew were treated poorly and used as unpaid
farmhands. At our elementary school, these foster kids were taught in
separate classes; it was assumed they would hold the white children back.
We were definitely discouraged from mixing with them, though I had an
Indian friend, Inez, and still sometimes wonder what happened to her. Those
are my own experiences.
Now that I'm grown, I can understand what it must have been like to live as
outsiders and to have been treated as defective simply because your
background wasn't mainstream.
BAYCITVIDGRP
paul manansala
jda...@aloha.net (John DAmato) wrote:
BAYCITVIDGRP (my...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:. [snip]
: Going to Kam School makes Hawaiian youth part of a culture that
: is respected and taught by people who are adept at that. [snip]
: AT least the Hawaii students at Kam get a continuance to rely
on.
: The American Indian's heritage is lost....[snip]
: bill conduit
: california
I don't think you have this quite right.
>From a cultural point of view, the Hawaiians' biggest enemies were
probably weren't the missionaries but venereal disease and the
Reciprocity Treaty with the U.S.
Owing to infertility associated with venereal disease, the Hawaiian
population was literally decimated by 1870 or so.
After 1870, sugar exploded (because of the Reciprocity Treaty with the
U.S.), and Portuguese couples together with Japanese and Filipino men
were
"imported" (they really were thought of as a kind of "stock" by the
sugar
planters) to Hawaii. The Portuguese were there as a kind of "breeding
stock" to intermarry with the Hawaiians.
****
Breeding stock?
****
The Japanese and Filipino men
were there purely as workers, who, it was thought, would politely
return
to wherever they had come from. They didn't, of course, and with men
of
child producing age outnumbering women of those ages 3:1 by the early
1900s, the Hawaiian "race" was all but lost as an idea.
Nowadays, most Hawaiians are more non-Hawaiian in terms of racial
ancestry
than they are Hawaiian.
****
We seem to be getting into the area of eugenics here. Native peoples
and minorities have always feared they have been underrepresented in
statistics. In terms of native peoples, this is especially the case
as their threats of claims on the land are diminished when they are
viewed as a dying or non-existent race. Here are statistics on
the Native Hawaiians from the OHA homepage:
Table 1.4. The Ethnic Composition of Hawaii, 1990.
---------------------------------------------------------
Ethnic 1990 1990
Group Census Bureau\a\ Health Surveillance\b\
---------------------------------------------------------
Caucasian 369,616 (33.4%) 262,605 (24.1%)
Hawaiian 138,742 (12.5%) 205,079 (18.8%)
Chinese 68,804 (6.2%) 51,294 (4.7%)
Filipino 168,682 (15.2%) 123,641 (11.4%)
Japanese 247,486 (22.3%) 222,014 (20.4%)
Others 114,899 (10.4%) 224,940 (20.6%)
---------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 1,108,229 1,089,573
---------------------------------------------------------
Native Hawaiians generally prefer the statistics of the Health
Surveillance, although these also are believed by some to under
count Hawaiians. The health statistics do not count military
or institutional populations or the population of Ni'ihau.
Table 1.6. Geographical Distribution of the Native Hawaiian
Population in the Continental United States, 1990.
----------------------------------------------------
Region Sub-Region Region
Sub-Region Total Total
----------------------------------------------------
Northeast 4,135 5.7%
New England 1,142
Middle Atlantic 2,993
Midwest 5,534 7.7%
East North Central 3,471
West North Central 2,063
South 12,240 5.8%
South Atlantic 6,562
East South Central 1,350
West South Central 4,328
West 50,363 69.7%
Mountain 7,144
Pacific 43,219
----------------------------------------------------
Total Mainland Native Hawaiians 72,272
Table 1.8. Distribution of the Native Hawaiian Population by
Blood Quantum, 1984.</B>
Blood Quantum
---------------------------
Age Range
Years 100% 50-99% < 50% TOTAL
----------------------------------------------------
< 20 1,023 26,663 75,457 103,143
20-34 591 23,115 32,211 55,917
35-44 2,187 9,459 7,711 19,357
45-54 1,448 5,848 6,733 14,029
55-64 1,259 4,644 2,903 8,806
> 64 1,736 2,980 2,508 7,224
----------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 8,244 72,709 127,523 208,476
----------------------------------------------------
Source: Office of Hawaiian Affairs. Population Survey / Needs
Assessment. Final Report. (Honolulu, 1986).
Table 1.13. Ethnic and Geographical Distribution of Resident
Births, 1990.
-----------------------------------------------
Ethnic Group Births
-----------------------------------------------
Caucasian 4,475 21.9%
Native Hawaiian 6,717 32.9%
Filipino 3,353 16.4%
Japanese 2,407 11.8%
Chinese 773 3.8%
Other 2,713 13.3%
-----------------------------------------------
Total Resident Births 20,438
Table 1.14. Ethnic and Geographical Distribution of Resident
Deaths, 1990.
------------------------------------------------
Ethnic Group Deaths
------------------------------------------------
Caucasian 1,607 24.0%
Native Hawaiian 1,136 17.0%
Filipino 946 14.2%
Japanese 1,926 28.8%
Chinese 413 6.2%
Other 659 9.9%
------------------------------------------------
Total Resident Deaths 6,687
>From the data above, it is easy to see that according to population
growth
rate by births - deaths alone, Native Hawaiians are by far the fastest
growing element of the population. However, this *does not* take into
account the fact that legally and often culturally intermarriage with
Hawaiians results in Hawaiian children.
----
The Hawaiian "race" is still very much alive. There may be more
Hawaiians with less than 50% blood quantum than vice a versa, at
least according to U.S. government statistics, but the number
of contributing stocks is highly varied. Thus, the overwhelmingly
predominant genetic stock among Hawaiians is Hawaiian. The use
of blood quantum and "part-Hawaiian," is seen by Hawaiians as an
attempt to divide the community and marginalize them in the same
way this was done with Native Indians. Most Caucasians on the islands,
or on the mainland, could also be safely classified as
"part-Caucasians." Not only due to the large quantity of Native Indian
and African admixture that has taken place, but even those FOB from
Europe are not of "pure descent."
Europeans in this country, whether they are blonds from Norway
or dark-complexioned Greeks, are classfied together as Caucasians
or as Euroamericans because they have the same "racial" background.
Many of the stocks that have mixed with Hawaiians also come from
the same racial background. Those from other Pacific islands,
Southeast Asia and South China come from the same lands that
the ancient Hawaiians journeyed from on the way to these islands.
Even Japanese are said to have Austronesian blood flowing in their
veins. Thus, when these peoples mix with Hawaiians, the issue
becomes their cultural not racial identification. In fact,
one could say that even persons with no Hawaiian blood at all have
identified themselves with Native Hawaiians. In this sense, it is
similar to people of different races identifying themselves as
American. Although these do not have the same claims to the land as
those with Hawaiian blood, many have still committed themselves to
help in the Native Hawaiian struggle.
****
The cultural consequences of the above were profound, as you can well
imagine. How, afterall, can a culture survive the demise of the race
that created it?
****
There has been no demise of the Hawaiian race, only wishful thinking
in this regard.
****
All of the things that you might think of as the formal
face of the culture--language, religion, art--were all but lost.
****
Again, none of these are "lost." All are making a recovery. If
you include under the category of "art," music, dance, etc., Hawaiian
culture predominates in Hawai'i.
Paul Kekai Manansala
VOTE by August 15th,
Imua!
what??@&!
[Moderator: Uh, were you expecting your post to get through? I'm using
this rather extreme measure to send you a message. Forget it. And lUsers
like you who try to hide your identity of course don't get a refusal
letter. Wouldn't know quite which account at aloha.net to send it to.
> Received: (from news@localhost)
> by nuhou.aloha.net (8.6.12/8.6.9)
> id TAA16286;
> References: <yzE4xQ9zBc/Y08...@mantra.com>
MANTRA.com? Hmmm. Bye.]
Ryan Miyamoto
In article <4scch3$2...@mochi.lava.net>,
hi...@aloha.net (Keith K. Higa) wrote:
: Well, I can offer anecdotal evidence from my current experience as a
: summer school teacher at Kailua HS. I have one kid in my class (of 31
: students...yikes!) who is from Kamehameha. At least from what he shows
: in class, he has an attitude of "I'm better than everyone else, and
: I don't want to associate with the public school ruffians." He will
: even refuse to pass papers to his neighbors without my prodding. Needless
: to say, that attitude grates on my students...most of the others in my
: class have expressed a dislike toward him. And it also grates on me,
: as the teacher.
I believe the entire image of the public schools is based on the fact that
anyone can get into one. Based on my experiences as a public school
student (Kailua High class of '95), I've noticed that many feel
"different" from private school students. An excellent example of this was
always brought up when we, as students, were told to debate the idea of a
dress code and/or uniforms. The immediate response was always, "But this
is public school."
On a side note, Kailua High has a population of over 50% Hawaiian or
Part-Hawaiian students.
: However, I do believe that not every Kamehameha student is like that...
: I have another KS student in my class and he is reasonably respectful.
: If he does have that attitude, he doesn't show it. The same goes for two
: other private school students in my class.
I don't think the whole "snob" thing can be generalized to cover all
private school students. Granted, there are those who do feel
superior--regardless of the school. But I've known Kam school students who
were extremely modest considering their accomplishments.
FWIW, this summer, I taught at a small private school; the summer session
included a few student who attended public schools during the school year.
I didn't see or hear any sort of attitude problems in their interactions
with each other.
Ryan
--
=============================================================
Ryan Miyamoto | Kailua High School BBS | Mac OS 7.5.3
rmiy...@hawaii.edu | 808-266-7912 / 28.8 |--------------
but...@pixi.com | TeleFinder Host 4.0 | U. of Hawaii
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kailua High School Web: "Do the important,
http://www.pixi.com/~kailuah2/ not the urgent."
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Hi,
> Two cultures which the white man put asunder. Time maybe for
> the white man to butt out and allow these people to learn from
> similars...that which the white man don't understand, but wish
> they could.
I agree with many of your points, but the above? Come on. Let's stop
perpetuating this attitude by having it written, typed, and spoken
everywhere. Just because one person trashes the Kam schools doesn't mean
that all white people don't understand what is happening. I am white, I
am not from here originally (Tennessee is my home state), and I think,
from what I have heard and experienced personally with Kam, it is a great
school and is furthering many ideas that we should be supporting.
Leanna
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
Leanna L. Bartram E-MAIL: lea...@pbrc.hawaii.edu
Graduate Assistant WWW:http://www.pbrc.hawaii.edu/
Cancer Research Center Hawaii ~leanna/index.html
University of Hawaii PHONE: (808)586-2960 (W)
1236 Lauhala St. (808)737-5799 (H)
Honolulu, HI 96813
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some
blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in, forget them as soon as you
can. Tomorrow is a new day, you shall begin it well and serenely...
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Panderer
In article <4uvs9i$1...@mochi.lava.net>,
"Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess" <lea...@pbrc.hawaii.edu> wrote:
> > Two cultures which the white man put asunder. Time maybe for
> > the white man to butt out and allow these people to learn from
> > similars...that which the white man don't understand, but wish
> > they could.
> I agree with many of your points, but the above? Come on. Let's stop
> perpetuating this attitude by having it written, typed, and spoken
> everywhere.
You know, I keep hearing about this guy. Who is he anyway? Does he have
a name other than "the white man"? I guess he wouldn't need to... I mean
a white man would be pretty hard to miss among all us tan and brown people.
I've never seen the white man before, but if I ever do, I'm going to kick
his ass. He is such a *troublemaker*.
Aloha,
jesse
fletcher
In article <4v38ge$7...@mochi.lava.net>,
je...@lava.net (Panderer) wrote:
: You know, I keep hearing about this guy. Who is he anyway? Does he have
: a name other than "the white man"? I guess he wouldn't need to... I mean
: a white man would be pretty hard to miss among all us tan and brown people.
: I've never seen the white man before, but if I ever do, I'm going to kick
: his ass. He is such a *troublemaker*.
You and Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess must get tired of hearing about
this white man, and you're nice people so I don't blame you a bit.
But history's history and here's one white man, in his own words:
"In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves
and brazil-wood which could be sold... in Castile, Portugal, Aragon ... and
the Canary Islands they need many slaves, and I do not think they get
enough from Guinea."
"Although they die now, they will not always die. The Negroes and
Canary Islanders died at first."
-Christopher Columbus, in a 1496 letter from Haiti to Ferdinand and
Isabella, describing profit opportunities in the New World.
In the previous year, his own accounts show the results. In a single slave
raid 1,500 Arawaks were captured, 500 shipped to Spain as slaves, with 200
dying en route. Another 500 remained as slaves for the Spaniards on the
island. The remainder of the Arawaks were subjected to a tribute system
which wiped them out even more effectively than the introduction of forced
labor, but did not prevent other conquistadors from importing it to Mexico,
Peru and Florida.
Today, of course, the Arawak people are extinct, Columbus is celebrated,
and it's considered tasteless and PC to criticize him, though during his
lifetime many other white men objected to his activities in the New World.
Just a word in favor of balance, lest the Golden Rule really be reduced to
"He who's got the gold, makes the rules."
-Victoria
Panderer
In article <4v3p6u$8...@mochi.lava.net>,
flet...@lava.net (fletcher) wrote:
: You and Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess must get tired of hearing about
: this white man, and you're nice people so I don't blame you a bit.
: But history's history and here's one white man, in his own words:
: "In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves
: and brazil-wood which could be sold... in Castile, Portugal, Aragon ... and
: the Canary Islands they need many slaves, and I do not think they get
: enough from Guinea."
: "Although they die now, they will not always die. The Negroes and
: Canary Islanders died at first."
: -Christopher Columbus, in a 1496 letter from Haiti to Ferdinand and
: Isabella, describing profit opportunities in the New World.
: In the previous year, his own accounts show the results. In a single slave
: raid 1,500 Arawaks were captured, 500 shipped to Spain as slaves, with 200
: dying en route. Another 500 remained as slaves for the Spaniards on the
: island. The remainder of the Arawaks were subjected to a tribute system
: which wiped them out even more effectively than the introduction of forced
: labor, but did not prevent other conquistadors from importing it to Mexico,
: Peru and Florida.
: Today, of course, the Arawak people are extinct, Columbus is celebrated,
: and it's considered tasteless and PC to criticize him, though during his
: lifetime many other white men objected to his activities in the New World.
: Just a word in favor of balance, lest the Golden Rule really be reduced to
: "He who's got the gold, makes the rules."
: -Victoria
Columbus was white?!? I didn't know that. I always thought he had brown
skin like the rest of us.
I'm not about to be drawn into defending Spanish colonial practices,
nor English either, for that matter, but I think it's important to
remind ourselves that it's easy for us to stand in judgement from the
security of our comfortable 20th century existence. The Spaniards were
merely barbarians in a world filled with barbarity.
While Columbus was slaughtering Arawaks in the name of the Holy Trinity,
the Aztecs, who were soon to make the acquaintance of Spaniards, were
gouging out the hearts of peasants with flint knives in supplication
to their Gods, and Hawaiians were burying slaves alive to support the
corner posts of other temples.
In light of those observations, one might be tempted to believe that
the exact shade of one's skin may have less to do with barbarity than
one's propensity to practice religion (of any brand).
I think it's important to draw a distinction between Columbus the
person and Columbus the statue. As a cultural icon he represents the
courage of the explorer, willing to risk falling off the edge of the
world (which he's not necessarily 100 percent sure isn't there) for
what he believes is a greater goal. Columbus the man had feet of clay,
just like the rest of us.
It's always a little risky to elevate mere people to the status of heros.
For many Hawaiians of the late 18th century, King Kamehameha was their
worst nightmare. Today he is revered as a symbol of the intelligence
and adaptability of a neolithic people snatched into the industrial age.
That doesn't mean we all have to think it was just fine that he was
responsible for the deaths of thousands of good Hawaiian people.
Columbus is a cultural icon for Hispanic people around the world. They
are entitled to be proud of their culture. Native American pride need
not come at their expense... and we need to be a little careful about
feeling too superior. Who knows what crimes our children's children
will decide to hold us accountable for?
Like you said Victoria, history's history... hardly more than a
collection of rumors out of context. It's certainly not us, it's not
even *about* us. We can learn from it if we're clever enough, but nothing
important will ever happen there. It's like Henry Ford said, "history
is largely bunk".
Aloha,
jesse
Rick Smith
Jesse,
I don't think I could have said it better. Looking at people 500 years
past through todays glasses (or prisms or TV lens, if you will) can be
misleading.
(Of course, what does this have to do with KS as an Elitist Country
Club?)
Rick
Nathan P Yuen
Panderer (je...@lava.net) wrote:
: In light of those observations, one might be tempted to believe that
: the exact shade of one's skin may have less to do with barbarity than
: one's propensity to practice religion (of any brand).
Absolutely! No religion (or cause for that matter) is exempt from
barbarism. The real danger is intolerance and fanaticism--the extent to
which one group is willing to go to "persuade" others to follow. When the
end justifies the means, barbarism will likely rear its ugly head.
--
o o __ __
\ / ' ` Don't Tread on Me!
|/ / __ \
(` \ ' ' \ ' Nathan Yuen, Ewa Beach, Hawaii
\ \| | @_/ |
\ \ \ /--/ ny...@lava.net, ny...@aloha.net
` ___ ___ ___ __ '
fletcher
In article <4v5her$9...@mochi.lava.net>,
je...@lava.net (Panderer) wrote:
:In article <4v3p6u$8...@mochi.lava.net>,
: flet...@lava.net (fletcher) wrote:
:
:: "In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the
slaves
:: and brazil-wood which could be sold... in Castile, Portugal, Aragon ...
and
:: the Canary Islands they need many slaves, and I do not think they get
:: enough from Guinea."
:: "Although they die now, they will not always die. The Negroes and
:: Canary Islanders died at first."
:
:: -Christopher Columbus, in a 1496 letter from Haiti to Ferdinand and
:: Isabella, describing profit opportunities in the New World.
:
:Columbus was white?!? I didn't know that. I always thought he had brown
:skin like the rest of us.
Columbus said he came from Genoa, but some serious historians (not the the
ones that cut-and-pasted our high school textbooks together) have a problem
with that, because comtemporary accounts indicate he couldn't speak Italian
even when writing to people in Genoa. Other guesses are he was Spanish or
Portugese.
:I'm not about to be drawn into defending Spanish colonial practices,
:nor English either, for that matter, but I think it's important to
:remind ourselves that it's easy for us to stand in judgement from the
:security of our comfortable 20th century existence. The Spaniards were
:merely barbarians in a world filled with barbarity.
But Leanna the Biology Goddess' complaint was that we keep speaking ill of
white men. In disagreeing, I chose Columbus *not* because I think he was
the worst thing ever to come down the pike but as an example of how history
generally gets distorted, not to denigrate white guys, but to make them
look heroic--or at least much closer to perfect than they were. Also,
Columbus seemed a good example because (I think) his story can be looked at
objectively: it doesn't make anyone jumpy about title to the land under
their home, or guilty about what their recent ancestors did or didn't do.
So bear with me if he's not connected to Kam Schools.
:
:While Columbus was slaughtering Arawaks in the name of the Holy Trinity,
:the Aztecs, who were soon to make the acquaintance of Spaniards, were
:gouging out the hearts of peasants with flint knives in supplication
:to their Gods, and Hawaiians were burying slaves alive to support the
:corner posts of other temples.
Yes. But you see, the Aztecs and Hawaiians are brought in here only to take
the heat off Columbus... we are conditioned not to question or criticize
The Great Navigator, to go all over the map before letting him look less
than perfect. Better to change the subject and talk about someone else.
:I think it's important to draw a distinction between Columbus the
:person and Columbus the statue. As a cultural icon he represents the
:courage of the explorer, willing to risk falling off the edge of the
:world (which he's not necessarily 100 percent sure isn't there) for
:what he believes is a greater goal. Columbus the man had feet of clay,
:just like the rest of us.
Feet of clay?? Father of the trans-Atlantic slave trade is more like it, as
well as the first European to create a grand-scale system of "creating"
wealth and property through seizing it from indigenous peoples. On colonial
practices, he wrote the book. I don't propose to say he was a villain; only
that we are scrupulous in memorializing his undoubted heroic aspects, while
denying the icky parts.
But again, that's exactly why I chose the dude in trying to show that,
contrary to what bothered Leanna, white men generally *don't* get bad
press... on the contrary. Remember how how Columbus as navigator had to
defend his round-earth theory before the flat-earth absolutists back home?
How his fearful crew threated to throw him overboard and turn back, afraid
of falling off the edge of the world? We all "know" this from our history
texts, but guess what... in 1492, few Europeans believed the world was
flat. Again, primary sources--contemporary writings--show people had
already deduced otherwise from natural phenomena. Sailors particularly had
observed the way a ship disappears over the horizon; hull first, then
sails. The whole "round vs. flat earth" debate was a fable from the
imagination of a novelist, Washington Irving, writing about Columbus in
*1828*. But we repeat it to this day... it's part of the myth of Columbus
as visionary, ahead of his time.
In fact, no mutiny was threatened during the crossing, and the weather was
peaceful and clear--according to Columbus' own journal--despite the
"storm-tossed seas" of our texts, which add all manner of imaginative
embroideries to make Columbus look even more courageous. The Pinzon
brothers, who captained the Nina and Pinta, were not only even more
experienced navigators, but equally comfortable with the idea of a round
earth.
My point in short: we're comfortable and willing to accuse Aztecs,
Kamehameha, American Indians of past bad behavior (why else do they get
trotted out for comparison when a white guy is criticised, instead of also
being excused as 'barbarians in a world full of barbarity?') Anybody is
fair game but the white guys we've decided to make into icons. In their
case, no dissent is tolerated.
:Like you said Victoria, history's history... hardly more than a
:collection of rumors out of context. It's certainly not us, it's not
:even *about* us. We can learn from it if we're clever enough, but nothing
:important will ever happen there. It's like Henry Ford said, "history
:is largely bunk".
But you see, Columbus' own unambiguous words, in his letters and his logs,
aren't rumor. They are, however, carefully deleted from history textbooks
when they make him look bad, and replaced with a collection of
inaccuracies, myths and fables to pad the opposite view. In this sense,
history is most certainly bunk. But very useful bunk when genuine history
is misused to glorify winners and comfort ourselves that the losers
deserved what they got.
Cheerfully and with a great deal of affection for the many white guys I
know and love,
-Victoria
fletcher
In article <4v8j1c$1...@mochi.lava.net>,
je...@lava.net (Panderer) wrote:
:This is fun. If we ever sponsor an sch debate team, I want you on my
:side, Victoria.
It's always neat to argue with someone who can put up a strong opposition
without throwing tomatoes, but I agree I'd rather be on the same side.
Anyway I have an evil plan for the picnic involving pina colada Jello shots
and expect anyone who samples them to be totally incapable of argument, if
the recipe works as well as it did last time I made it....
By the way, my grandma down the street was a lifelong schoolteacher and now
works with the RIF program... I get to see a lot of old schoolbooks,
including one from 1956 that left me so ready to rumble here. It explains
the history of Hawaii thus:
1. Volcanoes emerge from the sea and form the islands.
2. Early 1500s: Spanish navigators become aware of the islands but take
little notice.
3. 1778: Cook discovers them "and names them the Sandwich Islands in honor
of the Earl of Sandwich." As far as the text lets us know, the islands are
uninhabited.
4: 1820: American missionaries arrive [and here is the first and last
mention of the Hawaiian people (!)] "and soon the leading natives,
brown-skinned Polynesians, called themselves Christians."
5. 1874: "The old royal family [we haven't heard anything about it] died
out and a man named Kalakaua was elected king. He was a very bad ruler and
tried to restore the idols and take away the liberties of the people. On
his death, in 1891, his sister Liliuokalani tried to follow in his
footsteps..."
Well, you get the idea. This is the exact same version I was taught in
elementary school a few years later. I remember it, and I remember
imagining this Kalakaua character as some sort of fearsome painted savage,
an impression my textbook did nothing to dispell...
Not advocating white-guy bashing, but relieved my daughters are getting a
little broader perspective than I did in grade school... seeing as they're
neither white nor guys <g>.
I'll butt out and let this thread go back to Kam Schools,
-Victoria
Panderer
In article <4v6mbv$l...@mochi.lava.net>, flet...@lava.net (fletcher) wrote:
> But Leanna the Biology Goddess' complaint was that we keep speaking ill of
> white men.
Really? I missed that. What I read was her objection to characterizing
the ills of the western hemisphere as the work of "the white man".
This is what I thought she was expressing concern about:
> > Two cultures which the white man put asunder. Time maybe for
> > the white man to butt out and allow these people to learn from
> > similars...that which the white man don't understand, but wish
> > they could.
More than a little inflamatory, wouldn't you say?
> In disagreeing, I chose Columbus *not* because I think he was
> the worst thing ever to come down the pike but as an example of how history
> generally gets distorted, not to denigrate white guys, but to make them
> look heroic--or at least much closer to perfect than they were.
I agree that Columbus is an excellent example of the selective memory of
society with regard to those whom they choose to make into cultural icons.
I don't however, think it constitutes a demonstration of any "general"
trend to elevate caucasians. I suspect that there are a lot more, perhaps
better people, whose accomplishments have been ignored by history. It
shouldn't be that surprising that a society peopled mostly by caucasians
would have a majority of caucasian cultural heroes. I think you would not
find this to be the case in India, for example, or Zimbabwe. You would
probably find a much higher proportion of darker skinned heroes there...
who would also probably not withstand a particularly close scrutiny of
their personal code of values in the context of the higher standards we
at least try to set for ourselves these days. Nor is there any reason
why heroes should always meet those standards. It could be argued
in fact that it is precisely our awareness of the imperfection of our
heroes that motivates us to do better, at least as much as our admiration
for their accomplishments.
> :While Columbus was slaughtering Arawaks in the name of the Holy Trinity,
> :the Aztecs, who were soon to make the acquaintance of Spaniards, were
> :gouging out the hearts of peasants with flint knives in supplication
> :to their Gods, and Hawaiians were burying slaves alive to support the
> :corner posts of other temples.
> Yes. But you see, the Aztecs and Hawaiians are brought in here only to take
> the heat off Columbus... we are conditioned not to question or criticize
> The Great Navigator, to go all over the map before letting him look less
> than perfect. Better to change the subject and talk about someone else.
.. or to talk about the motivation of someone else's examples. Let me
clarify... I have no interest in taking any "heat" off Columbus. I do
have an interest in understanding why people behave so badly
toward one another, often with what they seem to believe are the best
of motives. What all these examples have in common is the religious
component, and my motivation for including these examples was, I thought,
clear from the paragraph that followed the one that you quoted above.
I don't think anybody is trying to defend the notion that Columbus was
perfect. He was just a courageous guy whom Hispanics in particular have
taken to heart as a heroic figure.
> :I think it's important to draw a distinction between Columbus the
> :person and Columbus the statue. As a cultural icon he represents the
> :courage of the explorer, willing to risk falling off the edge of the
> :world (which he's not necessarily 100 percent sure isn't there) for
> :what he believes is a greater goal. Columbus the man had feet of clay,
> :just like the rest of us.
>
> Feet of clay?? Father of the trans-Atlantic slave trade is more like it, as
> well as the first European to create a grand-scale system of "creating"
> wealth and property through seizing it from indigenous peoples.
I think you give him too much credit (or blame). The slave trade was
already well established in both the new and the old world (had been
for thousands of years), and seizing the property of one's neighbors
has, for most of human history been the preferred method of "creating"
wealth. The concept of free and fair trade is actually a comparatively
recent human invention. I think Columbus was merely conducting business
as usual. He was the product of a caste based social system. That's how
caste based systems work. The democrats were all in prison in those days
(at least the lucky ones).
> I don't propose to say he was a villain; only
> that we are scrupulous in memorializing his undoubted heroic aspects, while
> denying the icky parts.
And why not? That's what I meant by drawing a distinction between
Columbus the man and Columbus the statue. Nobody says you should run
for office based on his political theories, but we can all admire his
courage, can't we?
> But again, that's exactly why I chose the dude in trying to show that,
> contrary to what bothered Leanna, white men generally *don't* get bad
> press... on the contrary.
"White men generally don't get bad press" ??? I don't think that's a fair
statement. Examples are everywhere. I suspect that the press is probably
the one institution in America that is truly non-discriminatory. They'll
smear anybody if it helps sell papers. It's just not true that history
books portray all whites as good guys. It may be that black heroes are
under represented, I don't know. I suspect that depends on who's book the
school is using. Some do, some don't. In any case, I would suggest that
in this day and age, white men constitute the only group for which it is
not politically incorrect to bash at will. It's ok... we all take our
turn, and we're macho enough to handle it. :)
> Remember how how Columbus as navigator had to
> defend his round-earth theory before the flat-earth absolutists back home?
> How his fearful crew threated to throw him overboard and turn back, afraid
> of falling off the edge of the world? We all "know" this from our history
> texts, but guess what... in 1492, few Europeans believed the world was
> flat. Again, primary sources--contemporary writings--show people had
> already deduced otherwise from natural phenomena. Sailors particularly had
> observed the way a ship disappears over the horizon; hull first, then
> sails. The whole "round vs. flat earth" debate was a fable from the
> imagination of a novelist, Washington Irving, writing about Columbus in
> *1828*. But we repeat it to this day... it's part of the myth of Columbus
> as visionary, ahead of his time.
My allusion to sailing off the edge of the earth was not intended to be
taken so literally... I think most people know that the Greeks had pretty
much established the shape and size of the planet long before Columbus'
time, However, if you imagine that his trip across the Atlantic was just
a cruise, then I can only conclude that you have probably not spent much
time on a small craft out of the sight of land. Even with GPS navigation
equipment, it can be unnerving. It took a lot of courage to set out as
those sailors did, into uncharted seas, not knowing if they would live
to see land again. That's why they are heroes, for their courage, not
their social theories.
> My point in short: we're comfortable and willing to accuse Aztecs,
> Kamehameha, American Indians of past bad behavior (why else do they get
> trotted out for comparison when a white guy is criticised, instead of also
> being excused as 'barbarians in a world full of barbarity?') Anybody is
> fair game but the white guys we've decided to make into icons. In their
> case, no dissent is tolerated.
Then I've expressed myself poorly... I'm no more comfortable "accusing"
Aztecs, or Kamehameha or Native Americans than I am Columbus. They were
all just people doing what they thought was right. We don't have to make
villains out of any of them. BTW, the vision of Kamehameha being "trotted
out" is just a bit of a strain isn't it?
If it is an error to make heroes out of people for their virtues, it is
a worse error to make them into criminals for understanding the world
less well than we do... if for no other reason than, to the extent that
historians succeed in informing us, we have the benefit of their mistakes.
> :Like you said Victoria, history's history... hardly more than a
> :collection of rumors out of context. It's certainly not us, it's not
> :even *about* us. We can learn from it if we're clever enough, but nothing
> :important will ever happen there. It's like Henry Ford said, "history
> :is largely bunk".
> But you see, Columbus' own unambiguous words, in his letters and his logs,
> aren't rumor. They are, however, carefully deleted from history textbooks
> when they make him look bad, and replaced with a collection of
> inaccuracies, myths and fables to pad the opposite view. In this sense,
> history is most certainly bunk. But very useful bunk when genuine history
> is misused to glorify winners and comfort ourselves that the losers
> deserved what they got.
I think it can be argued that it may be closer to the spirit of truth to
omit historical details that, taken out of context, might suggest that
Columbus' philosophy was atypical of the age in which he lived. If this
discussion is to refocus on the cultural values of that time as opposed to
Columbus' personal failings, then I think it is unfair to suggest that
Europeans have been reluctant to air their own dirty laundry in public.
The truth is white people delight in trashing their own culture.
Anglo-saxons have been beating their breasts in church so long that
it's become congenital. It's no real challenge to get an Englishman
to apologize for the darkness when the sun sets! (or an American
Congress to apologize for the outcome of someone else's revolution).
People from other cultures, those which have not traditionally elevated
the guilty conscience to the status of a virtue, as we who enjoy the
benefits of hundreds of years of Judeo-Christian conditioning have done,
can be forgiven for being a little confused by this.
I don't think many people imagine Columbus was perfect. I'm more
concerned that investigative journalists are depriving us of *all* of
our heroes. People need heroes, and in this world, the only candidates
we are ever going to have are imperfect ones, with *one* possible
exception, and there's even some question about Him... just what *was*
that nasty business with the fig tree anyway? I mean, one barren fig
tree, and the guy went postal... over a snack!
> Cheerfully and with a great deal of affection for the many white guys I
> know and love,
This is fun. If we ever sponsor an sch debate team, I want you on my
side, Victoria.
Aloha,
jesse
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Victoria,
> But again, that's exactly why I chose the dude in trying to show that,
> contrary to what bothered Leanna, white men generally *don't* get bad
> press... on the contrary. Remember how how Columbus as navigator had to
> defend his round-earth theory before the flat-earth absolutists back home?
First, thanks for the polite and pleasant response. :) Aloha.
Actually, I wasn't really saying white guys get bad press in general. I
think my point is that it is rare for one group of people to be
completely, wholly, entirely to blame for something such as the Kamehameha
school woes....etc...... I was objecting more to him blaming one group of
people.
Aloha,
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Hi,
Rick and Jesse:
This is exactly the point that I am trying to make......that history is
not present. How can we find the best solution to a problem if we are
walking around with chips on our shoulders about what has happened in the
past? I don't think any of us are denying that there are problems in this
world.....sheez...Lord knows there are problems......
This is somewhat out of context, but there is a feminist author named
Camille Paglia...heard of her? She thinks the problem with feminism is
that women whine too much....that if the women would stop whining and just
act, we wouldn't have such a problem. Maybe if Bill could learn something
from that, we'd all be a lot better off.
Aloha,
L
fletcher
In article <4vdffl$j...@mochi.lava.net>,
"Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess" <lea...@pbrc.hawaii.edu> wrote:
:This is somewhat out of context, but there is a feminist author named
:Camille Paglia...heard of her? She thinks the problem with feminism is
:that women whine too much....that if the women would stop whining and just
:act, we wouldn't have such a problem. Maybe if Bill could learn something
:from that, we'd all be a lot better off.
Camille Paglia is a suck-up. An insufferable, boring old Auntie Tom. A
"pleeeease-like-me" girl, jes' like "Let's Abolish the Department of
Education" Phyllis Schlafly.
Besides, who brought up feminism? What problem?
As for past land grabs, we have an MTV-style attention span and should be
more consistent about ethics. Just because a caper has been successfully
pulled off doesn't make it OK. If I steal your car, it doesn't make it any
more mine if I manage to drive it around for a few years, hmmm?
"Let-byegones-be-byegones" is a philosophy that is _much_ easier to apply
to other people's property.
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Victoria,
> Camille Paglia is a suck-up. An insufferable, boring old Auntie Tom. A
> "pleeeease-like-me" girl, jes' like "Let's Abolish the Department of
> Education" Phyllis Schlafly.
Wow...I disagree....but you're entitled to your opinion.
> Besides, who brought up feminism? What problem?
Nobody. I said it was kinda off-topic. I think I was trying to say that
we can't solve our problems (this apparent "white man screwing up the Kam
schools" thing) by whining about what has happened, or is happening.
Camille Paglia has the same sort of philosophy. And I agree with it. I
suppose I am making an analogy between her feminist philosophy and my
philosophy about the whole Kam school debate.....
> As for past land grabs, we have an MTV-style attention span and should be
> more consistent about ethics. Just because a caper has been successfully
> pulled off doesn't make it OK. If I steal your car, it doesn't make it any
> more mine if I manage to drive it around for a few years, hmmm?
> "Let-byegones-be-byegones" is a philosophy that is _much_ easier to apply
> to other people's property.
True....and as I have said repeatedly...I don't deny that there is a
problem...or that the Hawaiians (not only Kam school affiliates) shouldn't
be angry about what was done to them. Nor am I saying that *no one* is to
blame for what happened to them. My main point (sigh....again) is that I
wish (1) that he would stop blaming white men for everything. Yes, we
played a part....a big one....in a really heinous act a long time ago.
Yes, native Hawaiians have a right to be angry; (2) that he would tame his
hostility towards white men today. I have done nothing harmful to
him....thus I resent being stereotyped because of my race.
I am merely saying that is a much more effective and peaceful way to deal
with problems. Lashing out at people who haven't done anything (like
myself, a member of the Caucasian race). It doesn't accomplish anything
for him, and it makes me a little resentful.
Point made.
Leanna
P.S. You are a pretty good debater though! :) Aloha.
fletcher
In article <4vdqsk$3...@mochi.lava.net>,
"Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess" <lea...@pbrc.hawaii.edu> wrote:
:
:I am merely saying that is a much more effective and peaceful way to deal
:with problems. Lashing out at people who haven't done anything (like
:myself, a member of the Caucasian race). It doesn't accomplish anything
:for him, and it makes me a little resentful.
:
I have to ask... did anybody notice the letter to the editor published in
the Advertiser yesterday, "Bishop Trustees must end racial exclusivity."?
Guy insists that Kam Schools admission policy violates civil rights law,
ought to lose its tax advantages, and is unconstitutional to boot. Says
Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop's will was misinterpreted and she never
meant Kamehameha Schools to benefit any particular race. I'm sorry the
second half of this gentleman's letter ended up as birdcage lining before I
could read it, but I got the drift he was implying that non-Hawaiians were
entitled to some compensation for being "wrongfully excluded" from Kam
Schools all these years.
It seems like a big crock to me, but my history is fuzzy here (and the
branch of my family that would have qualified all went to McKinley
instead). I'd like to know more about the establishment and original
mission of the Schools.
-Victoria
fletcher
In article <4vg22k$n...@mochi.lava.net>,
je...@lava.net (Panderer) wrote:
:I wish you'd have finished the man's letter, Victoria... if only so
:you could have given a more complete accounting of his position.
Unfortunately, the last third of his letter, the part that's over in the
next column, really did inadvertently get torn off for birdcage lining...
that was a literal rather than an editorial statement when you have as many
birds as I do.
In fact, the comment about tax exemption was partly over on that side, and
it's a stretch but he *might* have been saying something like "despite not
having tax-exempt status..." However, the first two thirds of the letter
made his position very clear, calling what he considers a racial exclusion
policy to be "inherently harmful to our community and the racially-selected
student body."
Again, I think that's an enormous crock but I think it's an interesting
topic, if only to illustrate how angry--even ferocious--some people get
when they perceive it's their own ox getting gored. It's so hard to tell
these days when it's OK to stand up bravely for the rights of man... and
when that makes you an annoying professional angry person <g>.
-Victoria
-Victoria
Panderer
In article <4vekc3$4...@mochi.lava.net>, flet...@lava.net (fletcher) wrote:
>
> I have to ask... did anybody notice the letter to the editor published in
> the Advertiser yesterday, "Bishop Trustees must end racial exclusivity."?
< snip>
> It seems like a big crock to me, but my history is fuzzy here (and the
> branch of my family that would have qualified all went to McKinley
> instead). I'd like to know more about the establishment and original
> mission of the Schools.
Aloha kakou,
I would too. I'm wondering if anyone has written anything like a history
of Kamehameha Schools.
I wish you'ld have finished the man's letter, Victoria... if only so
you could have given a more complete accounting of his position.
I didn't realize, for instance, that there were any tax advantages or
public subsidies that accrued to Kamehameha Schools. If, in fact, there
is public money going into Kamehameha Schools, either directly or
indirectly through tax breaks, then the man has raised a question that
needs to be discussed. A lot of us have had our heads bloodied over
the issue of publically supported racially (and/or sexually) exclusive
schools. It may be that there is a reason that makes Kamehameha Schools
a special case, I don't know. One thing that comes to mind that may
have a bearing on the issue is the fact that Hawaiians are still wards
of the government... but of course many people don't think that's such
a great thing either.
It's an interesting question. I hope someone who knows a little more
about it than we do will jump in here and enlighten us.
Aloha,
jesse
Panderer
In article <4vg7bd$7...@mochi.lava.net>, flet...@lava.net (fletcher) wrote:
> In fact, the comment about tax exemption was partly over on that side, and
> it's a stretch but he *might* have been saying something like "despite not
> having tax-exempt status..." However, the first two thirds of the letter
> made his position very clear, calling what he considers a racial exclusion
> policy to be "inherently harmful to our community and the racially-selected
> student body."
The supreme court has ruled (as I'm sure you know) that using public
funds to provide "separate but equal" educational opportunities is
inherently discriminatory and thus illegal. Using private funds in a
discriminatory manner may also be harmful (or not), but it's not
necessarily illegal if there are no public subsidies involved.
A more interesting question, in my opinion, is whether or not the
original intent of Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop is being carried
out by the trust estate she established. I can believe that she may have
meant the educational benefits to flow primarily (or even exclusively)
to Hawaiians, but did she really mean to include only the most intelligent
of Hawaiians, to the exclusion of those of merely average or below average
abilities? Maybe she did, I don't know. It is clear that the policies
of the current Board of Trustees is to ignore the needs of learning
disabled Hawaiians.
Another question I have relates more to historical fact that current
policies. It's my understanding that for most of it's history, Kamehameha
School was run not by the Bishop Estate, but by the US Army. Can
anyone out there confirm or deny that? If it was, what was the Bishop
Estate money being used for during that time? I assume there are
accounting records that document such things. Perhaps this is one of
those sleeping dogs that would be best left undisturbed...
> Again, I think that's an enormous crock but I think it's an interesting
> topic, if only to illustrate how angry--even ferocious--some people get
> when they perceive it's their own ox getting gored. It's so hard to tell
> these days when it's OK to stand up bravely for the rights of man... and
> when that makes you an annoying professional angry person <g>.
Well said, Victoria... it's always a good idea to evaluate what one
hears in the context of who is speaking, and what his or her vested
interests might be. The irony of course is that people who have *no*
vested interest may be in a position to be the most objective, but
they're also most likely to be people who have no interest at all
(vested or otherwise) and are therefore silent.
Life *is* complicated, isn't it? It's a wonder any of us ever make
it out alive.
Aloha,
jesse
Zita Maria Evensen
fletcher (flet...@lava.net) writes:
: Guy insists that Kam Schools admission policy violates civil rights law,
: ought to lose its tax advantages, and is unconstitutional to boot. Says
: Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop's will was misinterpreted and she never
: meant Kamehameha Schools to benefit any particular race. I'm sorry the
: second half of this gentleman's letter ended up as birdcage lining before I
: could read it, but I got the drift he was implying that non-Hawaiians were
: entitled to some compensation for being "wrongfully excluded" from Kam
: Schools all these years.
Wow! this thread is still going?
Been gone for over a month and this topic is still jumping with
debate.
: It seems like a big crock to me, but my history is fuzzy here (and the
: branch of my family that would have qualified all went to McKinley
: instead). I'd like to know more about the establishment and original
: mission of the Schools.
I have no problem with the concept of the Kam schools for students of
Hawaiian ancestry. However, I have a problem with the concept that
[in my perception] the schools only serve those who are perceived
as potentially successful students. I am concerned that many Hawaiian
students do not have access to the kind of education the Bishop
family have originally envisioned for them.
I think it is time for educators to get out of the 'box' and
look at the fact that ALL children can learn.
Now if you excuse me, I will get down from the soapbox :)
/z.
Mark S. Schmalz
je...@lava.net (Panderer) asked:
: ...meant the educational benefits to flow primarily (or even exclusively)
: to Hawaiians, but did she really mean to include only the most intelligent
: of Hawaiians, to the exclusion of those of merely average or below average
: abilities? Maybe she did, I don't know.
Neither do I, Jesse. One might speculate, however, that the Bishop Estate
trustees are perhaps investing for maximum return on investment. That is,
to produce Hawaiian leaders for Hawaii's community-at-large, the trustees
may see more effective results when investing in those who have a promising
future, or who have a proven scholastic track record. Such is the case with
most private schools, as well as nearly all institutions of higher education.
Being careful to limit all words to 3 syllables or less (except "institutions")
I bid you aloha from sunny Gainesville, FL, where we had such a lovely summer
day that I rode my bike to the office :)
Mark. ms...@cis.ufl.edu
BAYCITVIDGRP
In <4vinb6$e...@mochi.lava.net>,
je...@lava.net (Panderer) writes:
: Another question I have relates more to historical fact that current
: policies. It's my understanding that for most of it's history, Kamehameha
: School was run not by the Bishop Estate, but by the US Army. Can
: anyone out there confirm or deny that? If it was, what was the Bishop
: Estate money being used for during that time? I assume there are
: accounting records that document such things. Perhaps this is one of
: those sleeping dogs that would be best left undisturbed...
: Aloha,
: jesse
Just a note to Jesse... u local boy? Just curious. U seem
know lot info about da kine and moah bettah for people know
dis.
As for the Bitch Goddes posting my PRIVATE E-mail to her...she
did it for her own self-serving ends...to ingratiate herself
to the UH faculty with Hawaiian Blood. She posted out of
context what I said...and meant.
I was speaking of American Indians and Hawaiian's as sharing
common denominators with being treated by the WHITE MAN>>>>
that being any one who is not Indian or Hawaiian at that time
in their history.
The female who did her contriteness against me has an agenda
all her own...being from Tennessee she really has nothing of
import to contribute to the Hawaiian/Indian/Alaskaan Eskimo
similarities in the way their people have been treated once
an economic find was discovered on the lands....
She failed also to mention another e-mail communication about
a theory which elaborates on the locals and the aliens who
found different NEEDS when on the Islands....
Jesse...UH has a library...quite a few of them. but there is
the Hawaiiana library which I have done research on when I lived
da kine....now with the Hawaiiana center all sorts of material
must be forthcoming when they get it ready for people to do good
research....i would imagine many Hawaiians will donate their books
and family history to the Center at UH for Hawaiians.
I used to live in Makiki and getting to UH no problem. the Bus
...and bike
Here is some info u go to...wiki wiki....
http://www.infoseek.com...... go to search engine and type
in : Kamehameha Schools. much material u find brah.
Historyh of Kam and also how much money they take in brah.
Plus full e-mail addresses of teachers and researchers doing
the Hawaiian thing....plus addresses adn phone numbers too
dis page...two of dem brah...u look all menu's bruddah...
then punch in Bishop Estate and the woman Bishops name and
whatever idea in regards Hawaii u like find brah....u be
very surprised how much. Plus the
http://www.soc.hawaii.edu. University fo Hawaii pages
also no forget http://www.aloha.net or http://www.lava.net
Plenty info heah too brah....
Maybe someone can help you uncover the US ARMY connection
you bring up....those materials will probably be up at
SChofield Barracks library....
Also use these search engines: http://www.yahoo.com
and .excite.com and .search.com and .webcrawler.com
and alt.vista.com and .guide.com and .Lycos.com
and .worm.com and .world.com and .inktromi.com
and .guide.com and .McKinley.com and .onekey.com
and .searcher.com
Plus a few others you will discover along the way....
shakah brah....
bill conduit
etc.
J. Michael Midkiff
BAYCITVIDGRP wrote:
: In <4vinb6$e...@mochi.lava.net>,
: je...@lava.net (Panderer) writes:
: > Another question I have relates more to historical fact that current
: > policies. It's my understanding that for most of it's history,
: > Kamehameha School was run not by the Bishop Estate, but by the US Army.
: > Can anyone out there confirm or deny that? If it was, what was the
: > Bishop Estate money being used for during that time? I assume there are
: > accounting records that document such things. Perhaps this is one of
: > those sleeping dogs that would be best left undisturbed...
: > Aloha,
: > jesse
Jesse,
The US Army running Kam school? I don't remember such a thing. My
grandfather was a teacher and head of the boys school there for some
time before taking over the Waialua Sugar Co. My uncle was the school
president and the head trustee of the Estate for decades. His name was
Frank Midkiff. During WWII he was the Government's trustee for the US
Pacific Territories as well, so there may have been some confusion
there. He was neat guy who after his death, a number of Hawaiians came
forth stating that he had secretly funded their college educations. It
seems that the Bishop Estate Trustees are easy game for
criticism...after all it's easy to criticize people we know little
about. Perhaps the spirit of providing education for native people of
Hawaiian descent has diminished for the Trustees and perhaps not, so
before we condem them...and you haven't...lets try to learn more about
them and what they do. Also, there seems to be a misconception that
Kam School has not reached out to the other islands. Historically,
outreach has been a primary mission of the school. I hear much
criticism of the Estate from non-Hawaiians, any people of Hawaiian
decent have opinions? I am interested. If the Estate is abusing it's
authority, that should be of concern of all.
sincerely,
Michael
Panderer
In article <4vqv0f$2...@mochi.lava.net>,
my...@ix.netcom.com (BAYCITVIDGRP) wrote:
> Just a note to Jesse... u local boy? Just curious. U seem
> know lot info about da kine and moah bettah for people know
> dis.
Mahalo e brah,
I'm very flattered. It's a great compliment that you noticed. Yep, I'm
a local boy... been local everywhere I've ever lived. Been local here
now for almost three years. Before that I was in Colorado... born in
California (but had the good sense to get out when I was really young).
Previous incarnations: ahh... let's see, Labrador, The Orkneys, Babylon
(twice), Austria, Siberia, oh! and North Kohala.
> Jesse...UH has a library...quite a few of them. but there is
> the Hawaiiana library which I have done research on when I lived
> da kine....now with the Hawaiiana center all sorts of material
> must be forthcoming when they get it ready for people to do good
> research....i would imagine many Hawaiians will donate their books
> and family history to the Center at UH for Hawaiians.
> I used to live in Makiki and getting to UH no problem. the Bus
> ...and bike
> Here is some info u go to...wiki wiki....
<snip>
> Plus a few others you will discover along the way....
Heh... thanks for the advice. I'll take it. Incidently, for the record,
I think I was misinformed about the role of the US military in the
history of Kamehameha Schools. The army may have had a role in the past
but probably not a major one. I'll let you know if I find out anything
different. Moral: Don't always believe everything someone tells you
about Hawai`i, even if they're Hawaiian and seem to know what they're
talking about..
Aloha,
jesse
Leanna L. Bartram--Biology Goddess
Bill,
I sincerely apologize for whatever you think I took out of context...but
you sent me a message quoting some nasty things that I never wrote you. I
am simply interjecting an opinion and would appreciate it being recognized
as such. Perhaps if you would elaborate on what statement of yours I took
out of context, I would be glad to rectify the situation.
Otherwise, there is no need to be so nasty about a simple discussion.
Granted, it is a discussion with many implications, but I don't think I
ever stepped out of line in discussing the topic.
Leanna
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Leanna L. Bartram E-MAIL:lea...@pbrc.hawaii.edu
Graduate Assistant WWW:http://www.pbrc.hawaii.edu/
Cancer Research Center Hawaii ~leanna/index.html
University of Hawaii PHONE: (808)586-2960 (W)
1236 Lauhala St. (808)737-5799 (H)
Honolulu, HI 96813
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Mediocrity never sees higher than itself
But talent instantly recognizes the genius.
Arthur Conan Doyle
BAYCITVIDGRP
In <4vtig5$a...@mochi.lava.net> je...@lava.net (Panderer) writes:
>
>
>In article <4vqv0f$2...@mochi.lava.net>,
>my...@ix.netcom.com (BAYCITVIDGRP) wrote:
>
>> Just a note to Jesse... u local boy? Just curious. U seem
>> know lot info about da kine and moah bettah for people know
>> dis.
>
>Mahalo e brah,
>
>I'm very flattered. It's a great compliment that you noticed. Yep, I'm
>a local boy...
>>
>> the ARMY thing, I read what the guy said about his
father telling, etc. But you have to remember that the
territories were administered by the US and the military
was in charge there....that goes back to the early 1900's
1960 and advanced...well, statehood just made people aware
more so....I remembah a Hawaii 5-0 segment being filmed in
front of where I used liv'm in Waikiki...down deep by the
Queen Kap hotel....dis local boy no like em building on
Hawaiian lands and all of a sudden McGarrett's in the
middle of a "yankee go back to mainland"...demo...dynamite
used...etc.
Then up near Kahaluu some Hawaiians demonstrated against
the usurping of their lands... a valley up there...I took
pictures ... but signs all over the roadside with their
anger and pleas for Hawaiian answers....seems the govt.
wanted to open the area up to development....guess
what....in 1980's ... they did. I know someone who live
up there...so the Hawaiians lost another one.....
Too bad the Hawaiian people could not claim Hawaiians a
religious people and be like the Mormons up on other
side of Island near Kahaluu...or Kahaku...i no have
my Map book handy....it's here...
IF that were possible, just think of all the unused
Military bases which would be "re-Hawaiianized"....
Plenty good idea, no.
Instead of being given jobs at the hotels with all
this new Hawaiiana the jobs be given out by the locals.
Become a religion and doors open.....and tax free too.
what a concept...?
bill conduit
etc.