Pronouncing "W"
Dan Birchall
In the 1953 "All About Hawaii: Thrum's Hawaiian Annual" I was
given as a holiday present in recent years, the section on the
Hawaiian language says:
"Although the rule is that the consonants have the same sound as
in English, there is one exception. That is, when a "w" is the
next to the last (penultimate) letter in a word, it takes the
sound of "v," but never under any other circumstances. For
example, although Hawi is pronounced as "Hah-vee," Hawaii is
pronounced as "Hah-wy-ee," and Waikiki as "Wy-key-key."
"Before applying this rule to compound words it is necessary to
break them down into their basic parts, as the "w" in a
compounded word retains the same sound given it in its basic word.
"For example, Kaalawai is compounded from three words - ka, ala
and wai - and so as the "w" in the basic word "wai" retains its
English sound, the whole is pronounced "Kah-ah-lah-wy."
"In contrast, in Kaawaloa, which is compounded from ka, awa and
loa, the "w" in this instance is the penultimate letter from the
basic word "awa" and so takes the "v" sound, the whole being
pronounced "Kah-a-vah-lo-ah.""
I have, however, heard people who speak Hawaiian pronounce Hawaii
as "Hah-vy-ee." So I'm wondering whether the linguistic rule as
explained in the 1953 Thrum's is inaccurate, or whether things
have become more flexible in the ensuing decades. Perhaps the
"v" sound is being applied to "w" when it is the last consonant
in a word, even if multiple vowels follow it?
If anybody here has a better understanding of the state of the "w"
in Hawaiian, I'm all ears.
-Dan
--
Available for Biz, Pics, Tech and Words - http://danbirchall.com/
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oi...@djfl.com
In article <1006635...@mochi.lava.net>,
Dan Birchall <i_charge_100_...@nospam.danbirchall.com>
wrote:
.........
> I have, however, heard people who speak Hawaiian pronounce Hawaii
> as "Hah-vy-ee." So I'm wondering whether the linguistic rule as
> explained in the 1953 Thrum's is inaccurate, or whether things
> have become more flexible in the ensuing decades. Perhaps the
> "v" sound is being applied to "w" when it is the last consonant
> in a word, even if multiple vowels follow it?
>....
Although I am studying Hawaiian I claim no expertise in this matter.
However, the source you cite seems to have it right. I suspect that,
while there are regional differences in Hawaii, those who pronounce it
"Hah-vy-ee" are the pretentious ones. Similar to those who pronounce
Manoa MAAAAAAAAAAH-no-ah.
Phil Borger
"Dan Birchall" wrote
> the 1953 "All About Hawaii: Thrum's Hawaiian Annual" says: when a "w" is
the next to the last (penultimate) letter in a word, it takes the sound of
"v," but never under any other circumstances.
Hawaiian, I'm all ears.
Without pretending any personal experience, here's a quote from Pukui and
Elbert - Revised & Enlarged Hawaiian Dictionary, published 1986:
"Pronunciation of Hawaiian:
w after 'i' and 'e' usually a lax 'v'; after 'u' and 'o' usually like 'w';
after 'a' or initially, like 'w' OR 'v' "
So I'd guess that either the rules have changed ..... or there are more than
one set of rules .... or 'usually" is a very important qualifier.
Maybe there are differences across location and time, too. Consider
'awl', 'all', and 'oil' across such locations as Texas, the Carolinas,
Massachewsetts and New Joisey.
plantsman
"Dan Birchall" <i_charge_100_...@nospam.danbirchall.com>
wrote in message news:1006635...@mochi.lava.net...
:
: In the 1953 "All About Hawaii: Thrum's Hawaiian Annual" I was
*********************************
I always heard that if the word started with a "w", then it was
pronounced as a "w". If the "w" was within the word, then it could go
either way depending upon the preference of the speaker as there is no
"v" in the Hawaiian written alphabet. I too have heard many locals
pronounce Hawai`i as "Ha-vy `Ee". Then again, I've never heard anyone
pronounce Honokawai as "Ho-no-ka-vy".
Kawika
v^v^v^v^v Plantsman's Maui Information Website
<+> <+> http://pages.prodigy.net/plantsman/contents.htm
/_\ email: plan...@prodigy.net
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Dan Birchall
Phil Borger wrote:
> Without pretending any personal experience, here's a quote from Pukui and
> Elbert - Revised & Enlarged Hawaiian Dictionary, published 1986:
>
> "Pronunciation of Hawaiian:
>
> w after 'i' and 'e' usually a lax 'v'; after 'u' and 'o' usually like 'w';
> after 'a' or initially, like 'w' OR 'v' "
>
> So I'd guess that either the rules have changed ..... or there are more
> than one set of rules .... or 'usually" is a very important qualifier.
Indeed. If I wasn't already confused... ;)
> Maybe there are differences across location and time, too. Consider
> 'awl', 'all', and 'oil' across such locations as Texas, the Carolinas,
> Massachewsetts and New Joisey.
Oh, you mean 'Earl'? :)
dppatalohadotnet
Dan Birchall wrote:
>
> "Although the rule is that the consonants have the same sound as
> in English, there is one exception. That is, when a "w" is the
> next to the last (penultimate) letter in a word, it takes the
> sound of "v," but never under any other circumstances. For
> example, although Hawi is pronounced as "Hah-vee," Hawaii is
> pronounced as "Hah-wy-ee," and Waikiki as "Wy-key-key."
>
Strawberry Guava, the waiawi ula(sp?). I learned is a vy-ah-veee waaaay
back in the Cub Scout days.
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onto the backbone, thru the firewall, into the router........
NOTHING BUT NET!! \m/ ^_^ \m/ Aloha...DPP
go Warriors... nah... G O B O W S ! ! !
Mckenna Hallett
oi...@djfl.com wrote:
Unless you are just exaggerating and showing a true pretentiousness with
such a very looooong stress on Maaaa...I must point out that IF the person
saying Manoa is referring to the Valley in Honolulu they would be correct
to put emphasis on a long A. Manoa the place is spelled with (although I
have not been able to figure out how to do this on a keyboard) a macron
(requiring a stress be made on the vowel) over the first a. However,
Manoa without the stressed vowel means: numerous or very many. With the
stress it means: thick, solid, vast, depth. With that in mind it
describes Manoa Valley quite well!
Trying to honor the laugauge of the place one lives can hardly be
considered pretentious. There is a reason for every nuance in
pronunciation. I for one try my best to speak as clearly as possible.
Bad enough that the street signs, maps, and other sources of the written
lauguage here have no diacritical markings. But in the past 15 years,
there is a growing laziness towards proper pronunciation. Almost every
newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu. What's up
with that? There is no such word as hanalulu nor would hana lulu be a
word or phrase.
The Hawaiians very nearly lost heir lauguage altogether. As you say you
are now studying Hawaiian, you surely understand the importance of
stressing a vowel. Call me pretentious, but I would rather over-stress
from time to time, than change the word altogether.
Mckenna
Gerard Fryer
Mckenna Hallett <mck...@lowerimpact.com> wrote:
> Almost every
> newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu.
And Kaimuki "kye-moo-key," and Hanauma "ha-now-ma."
Then, of course, there is the opposite extreme, often seen on KGMB:
O'ahu becomes "O (take a breath, a sip of water, steel yourself) Ahu."
--
ger...@hawaii.edu.cornedbeef
oi...@djfl.com
Woh, easy there!
> > Manoa MAAAAAAAAAAH-no-ah.
>
> Unless you are just exaggerating and showing a true pretentiousness with
> such a very looooong stress on Maaaa.
You are absolutely right and I know its the long ah but I mean there
really are those who pronounce it as Maaaaaaaaaa-no-ah. That includes a
couple of DJs on KTUH.
A bit of overstressing is one thing. However, I was referring to those
who probably have not bothered to study the language or at least its
pronounciation but then try and act knowledgeable by overdoing it.
Almost every
> newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu. What's up
> with that? There is no such word as hanalulu nor would hana lulu be a
> word or phrase.
The worst offender is Joe Moore. He is so bad that I was surprised to
learn that he grew up in Hawaii. However, as for Hanalulu, you are
wrong. Eddie Kamae, for one, pronounces it that way. He should know.
Hana is bay and lulu is .......... ummmmmmmmm......... sheltered? My
kumu made it a point to inform us that Hanalulu is acceptable.
BTW, you are right about the missionaries dropping the T and R when
putting Hawaiian in writing.
Mckenna Hallett
oi...@djfl.com wrote:
> Woh, easy there!
>
> > > Manoa MAAAAAAAAAAH-no-ah.
> >
> > Unless you are just exaggerating and showing a true pretentiousness with
> > such a very looooong stress on Maaaa.
>
> You are absolutely right and I know its the long ah but I mean there
> really are those who pronounce it as Maaaaaaaaaa-no-ah. That includes a
> couple of DJs on KTUH.
I sorta figured you knew that, especially as you ARE studying, but...One never
knows who might be reading this from afar...
so I got that you get it. Of course DJ's use special "stage" lauguage as part
of the persona of radio "style" so they can be forgiven...to some degree.
They are using a radio "voice". You know...: allllll right. Is Evvverybody
ready? But as I said and you agreed, pretentiousness would not be an
approriate accusation if someone just does a stressed vowel.
>
>
> A bit of overstressing is one thing. However, I was referring to those
> who probably have not bothered to study the language or at least its
> pronounciation but then try and act knowledgeable by overdoing it.
Yea...there can be those...for sure. But I even try to give them a few kudos
for even paying attention to the fact that there are stresses to be stressed.
>
>
> Almost every
> > newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu. What's up
> > with that? There is no such word as hanalulu nor would hana lulu be a
> > word or phrase.
>
> The worst offender is Joe Moore. He is so bad that I was surprised to
> learn that he grew up in Hawaii. However, as for Hanalulu, you are
> wrong. Eddie Kamae, for one, pronounces it that way. He should know.
> Hana is bay and lulu is .......... ummmmmmmmm......... sheltered? My
> kumu made it a point to inform us that Hanalulu is acceptable.
Acceptable to whom? Check your Pukui dictionary. Your kumu made a big error
in my opinion - especially as Hanalulu does not exist as a nameplace in the
entire islands. Try send letter to Hanalulu with a wrong zip code and see how
far it will get. Yes, it is true that Hana and Hono (when used as place names
only) both are words for bay, but no where did I read that they are
"therefore" interchangeable. I think the folks living in Hanalei would be
interested to learn if some were calling their place Honolei. Never heard
that once.
Could this be just slang one might ask? Well, maybe, but it is too common an
abuse of the entire language by too many that I rail against here. And these
little abuses add up and is exactly the problem as I see it today. Small
distinctions cannot be just "overlooked" as close enough.
Here on Maui the name Ma`alaea is nearly never pronounced with both A's. They
say, Mah-lie-ya. When I pronounce it properly, I get some stink; folks think
*i* am being pretentious.
Sorry...but the lauguage needs to be honored. I stand firm and accuse those
who say Hanalulu as just being lazy. Honolulu is a lovely name, albiet a
slightly tricky word for tongues to wrap around at the start of a word - it
requires several more muscles being in control than the word hana. But it was
surely chosen with care to distiguish it and give it a placement. No one
should just change it.
>
>
> BTW, you are right about the missionaries dropping the T and R when
> putting Hawaiian in writing.
Do you recall if there was a third letter...its bugging me. (detail crazy
lately...)
Mckenna
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
oi...@djfl.com wrote:
> Woh, easy there!
>
> > > Manoa MAAAAAAAAAAH-no-ah.
> >
> > Unless you are just exaggerating and showing a true pretentiousness with
> > such a very looooong stress on Maaaa.
>
> You are absolutely right and I know its the long ah but I mean there
> really are those who pronounce it as Maaaaaaaaaa-no-ah. That includes a
> couple of DJs on KTUH.
> A bit of overstressing is one thing. However, I was referring to those
> who probably have not bothered to study the language or at least its
> pronounciation but then try and act knowledgeable by overdoing it.
you're right about that. I heard people really stress it as in na keiki.
It's obvious that if you hear "na" right before keiki, that it would be
plural. I try to emphasise my lengthened vowels but it's really hard in
normal fast speech. I know I do it correctly sometimes and not omit it
entirely. But sometimes i wonder if I really sacrifice the pronunciation.
>
>
> Almost every
> > newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu. What's up
> > with that? There is no such word as hanalulu nor would hana lulu be a
> > word or phrase.
>
> The worst offender is Joe Moore. He is so bad that I was surprised to
> learn that he grew up in Hawaii. However, as for Hanalulu, you are
> wrong. Eddie Kamae, for one, pronounces it that way. He should know.
> Hana is bay and lulu is .......... ummmmmmmmm......... sheltered? My
> kumu made it a point to inform us that Hanalulu is acceptable.
>
I was going to mention that. Maybe w/ that particular word, it wouldn't
matter b/c of hana and hono both referring to bay. Hana of course is used
more in the leeward islands and as you progress towards the windward islands
(I hope I got those terms correct) you see "hono" used alot in place names.
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Mckenna Hallett wrote:
>
>
> Here on Maui the name Ma`alaea is nearly never pronounced with both A's. They
> say, Mah-lie-ya. When I pronounce it properly, I get some stink; folks think
> *i* am being pretentious.
>
Like how we used to pronounce Ka'a'awa. We used to say Ka'awa, which of course
was wrong.
> >
> >
> > BTW, you are right about the missionaries dropping the T and R when
> > putting Hawaiian in writing.
>
> Do you recall if there was a third letter...its bugging me. (detail crazy
> lately...)
you're not thinking of the B are you? :-)
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
plantsman wrote:
>
> I always heard that if the word started with a "w", then it was
> pronounced as a "w". If the "w" was within the word, then it could go
> either way depending upon the preference of the speaker as there is no
> "v" in the Hawaiian written alphabet. I too have heard many locals
> pronounce Hawai`i as "Ha-vy `Ee". Then again, I've never heard anyone
> pronounce Honokawai as "Ho-no-ka-vy".
Yup, exactly depends on the speaker. I don't think anyone might pronounce
it as Honokavai, yet it's common to use the V sound in wai. In the
dictionary there's the Kuahine rain but NO ONE says it like that, although
I had an argument w/ someone about that. Everyone calls it the Tuahine
rain.
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Mckenna Hallett wrote:
> Almost every
> newscaster or media person seems to call Honolulu, hanalulu. What's up
> with that? There is no such word as hanalulu nor would hana lulu be a
> word or phrase.
We were told in my linguistic class that newscasters tend to have one accent.
They do the same here w/ the exception of Spanish names and if the newscaster
is a native Spanish speaker. They sound so haole but boy when the names of
the cities or surnames of Hispanic people come out...LOOK OUT! *L* Too bad
the ones in Hawai'i can't do the same.
>
>
> The Hawaiians very nearly lost heir lauguage altogether. As you say you
> are now studying Hawaiian, you surely understand the importance of
> stressing a vowel. Call me pretentious, but I would rather over-stress
> from time to time, than change the word altogether.
plus the meaning changes or can change if you don't do it right. For example
(using a capital letter for the macron) wahine is woman while wAhine is
women. It's important to use the proper form.
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Dan Birchall wrote:
> "Before applying this rule to compound words it is necessary to
> break them down into their basic parts, as the "w" in a
> compounded word retains the same sound given it in its basic word.
>
> "For example, Kaalawai is compounded from three words - ka, ala
> and wai - and so as the "w" in the basic word "wai" retains its
> English sound, the whole is pronounced "Kah-ah-lah-wy."
>
> "In contrast, in Kaawaloa, which is compounded from ka, awa and
> loa, the "w" in this instance is the penultimate letter from the
> basic word "awa" and so takes the "v" sound, the whole being
> pronounced "Kah-a-vah-lo-ah.""
Sometimes it doesn't work that way. I personally tried to analyze my own
speech but came up w/ only "preference". It's easy for me to say vai for
water and not wai, but any "names" that begins w/ W I pronounce it as a W
not a V as in Waikiki, Waipahu, Wahiawa, etc.
another one I noticed was Ha'awina (lesson). I learned it as a W not a V
and many people say it w/ a V. It's all a matter of choice.
However, there are certain words where you just pronounce the V, which
usually falls between (or follows) the I or E. Like in 'Ewa, iwa, &
hiwa. But I'm guessing the Niihauans just use the W pronunciation in
all, including w/ a name like Kawika (w/ a V sound), since I heard them
pronounce that name w/ a W.
>
>
> I have, however, heard people who speak Hawaiian pronounce Hawaii
> as "Hah-vy-ee." So I'm wondering whether the linguistic rule as
> explained in the 1953 Thrum's is inaccurate, or whether things
> have become more flexible in the ensuing decades.
I believe Thrum was not a linguist.
oi...@djfl.com
I will have to ask my kumu about Hanalulu but I may not seem him till
the Spring. There's a chance I will see Eddie Kamae before then and will
ask him.
As for the third letter, there was one. B or D ? Bugging me too.
BTW, there may be hope, yet. Just last week Gary Sprinkle, or one of
those TV folks, pronounced Hailimaile correctly!!! I could not believe
my ears.
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
oi...@djfl.com wrote:
>
> As for the third letter, there was one. B or D ? Bugging me too.
Yeah, I just mentioned that to McKenna. Maybe you're thinking of the B, but
it's actually not a polynesian letter. It's the P.
plantsman
"Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <motu...@earthlink.net> wrote
in message news:1006965...@mochi.lava.net...
:
:: Yup, exactly depends on the speaker. I don't think anyone might
pronounce
: it as Honokavai, yet it's common to use the V sound in wai. In the
: dictionary there's the Kuahine rain but NO ONE says it like that,
although
: I had an argument w/ someone about that. Everyone calls it the
Tuahine
: rain.
:
**************************
I noticed that someone in the Honolulu area is selling wiliwili lei at
auction on eBay. They said in their description that is was
pronounced "Vee-lee Vee-lee". For the life of me, I've never heard it
pronounced liked that.
Kawika (kah-vee-kah)<g>
v^v^v^v^v Plantsman's Maui Information Website
<~> <+> http://pages.prodigy.net/plantsman/contents.htm
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
plantsman wrote:
>
> I noticed that someone in the Honolulu area is selling wiliwili lei at
> auction on eBay. They said in their description that is was
> pronounced "Vee-lee Vee-lee". For the life of me, I've never heard it
> pronounced liked that.
*LOL* did you check to see if the person was in the mainland? :-) Now
the wiliwili would follow that rule where you would normally say it w/ a
V...but we just never heard of it that way.
>
>
> Kawika (kah-vee-kah)<g>
yeah, you should listen to how this woman from Ni'ihau said it. *L*
Mckenna Hallett
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
Hmmmm... I have never heard it pronouced without the V here on Maui. At
least not to people I trade seeds with. So for years that is what I have
thought was correct. hmmm...curiouser and curiouser these little details.
Mckenna
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Mckenna Hallett wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Kawika (kah-vee-kah)<g>
> >
> > yeah, you should listen to how this woman from Ni'ihau said it. *L*
>
> Hmmmm... I have never heard it pronouced without the V here on Maui. At
> least not to people I trade seeds with. So for years that is what I have
> thought was correct. hmmm...curiouser and curiouser these little details.
OH, i meant Kawika sounds like KA-WEE-KAH pronounced by this woman from
Ni'ihau. But wiliwili is still w/ the W, never V from my own experience only.
Mr. Bigg
Iz pronounces the v in a number of his songs.
Mr. Bigg
Phil Borger wrote in message <1006657...@mochi.lava.net>...
Judy Barrett
plantsman wrote:
> I noticed that someone in the Honolulu area is selling wiliwili lei at
> auction on eBay. They said in their description that is was
> pronounced "Vee-lee Vee-lee". For the life of me, I've never heard it
> pronounced liked that.
>
> Kawika (kah-vee-kah)<g>
I rarely hear it with a "w" sound. Gosh, so many song lyrics talk about
"wili"-ing something. Pua Hone...."i wili ia me ka ieie o Leilono."
Dan Birchall quoted a text claiming:
"Although the rule is that the consonants have the same sound as in
English, there is one exception. That is, when a "w" is the next to the
last (penultimate) letter in a word, it takes the sound of "v," but never
under any other circumstances.
Wow....That sure doesn't come close to fitting what I hear from fluent
speakers.
What about words like wehiwehi, uluwehi, wekiu (I ka "weh-kyu"???), wale
(Auhea "wal-leh" ana `oe?), wana, wawai, waena, walina, etc., etc., etc.
I don't think that rule holds much water, if any.
What I was taught several years ago was there was just about no place in
the language where either sound would be incorrect, but that there were a
just couple of words where the "w" was just not heard. Ipo Kumukahi
pointed out that, at least in the district of Hawaii her father is from,
ALL the W's are pronounced like an English W.
Perhaps the author of the text was making rules for the language based on
a very narrow sampling of speakers.
Kalaninuiana'olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Judy Barrett wrote:
>
> What about words like wehiwehi, uluwehi, wekiu (I ka "weh-kyu"???), wale
> (Auhea "wal-leh" ana `oe?), wana, wawai, waena, walina, etc., etc., etc.
>
> I don't think that rule holds much water, if any.
yes, you're right. I heard wekiu instead of vekiu too. But the rest, I hear
it w/ a W. Waena I heard only w/ a W so far.
>
>
> What I was taught several years ago was there was just about no place in
> the language where either sound would be incorrect, but that there were a
> just couple of words where the "w" was just not heard. Ipo Kumukahi
> pointed out that, at least in the district of Hawaii her father is from,
> ALL the W's are pronounced like an English W.
Could be. W/ Niihau people, they don't use the V sound. Which is why Kawika
was not pronounced w/ a V.
>
>
> Perhaps the author of the text was making rules for the language based on
> a very narrow sampling of speakers.
Yes, that could be one possibility too. But it's not always limited to
certain islands but can be more specific & exist in small pockets of a town,
district, etc.