Hawaiian Linquistics - Defintion of Hapa Popolo Olopop
drydem
In article <398B70FA...@ssl.berkeley.edu>,
Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> I just happened to read this article and I'm laughing
> my ass off because I thought everyone knew this. 'Popolo'
> is a term used in Hawaii to refer to dark skinned people.
> It is a term used by the locals.
While the internet is global - Hawaiian slang is rare
on the usenet and non existent on the East Coast.
> In Hawaii many of the locals are of mixed blood. You might
> be 20% Portugese, 20% Chinese, 20% Samoan, 20% Philipino
> and 20% Japanese and have an English last name. If you are
> out in the sun and get pretty dark, people will call you
> popolo or olopop in a friendly, kidding, endearing way.
> It can also be used in a degrogatory manner, similiar to
> the term 'nigger' which can cause many problems. White
> people generally don't use this term.
Mr.Grouch's angry disposition and the lack of any history
to indicate that he was a reliable source of information
gave rise to my skepticism. I am familar with Hawaiian
demographics ( I can get that on the net ) but linguistic
information on the Hawaiian Language ( and slang ) is
very limited over the internet and dictionaries on the
Hawaiian Language are practically non existant in my area.
However, I am interested in avoiding the use of any
possibly degoratory terms in the interest of diplomacy.
Do you know when this slang term first came into use?
How wide spread (i.e. In what regions) is this slang
term used? Why would Blacks be offended by the usage of
popolo - is there any history or story?
Does Hapa My Second Question is unanswered.
-------------------------------
Grouch asserted that the term Hapa does not include
persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
mother is Samoan and father is african american).
What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
>
> The term 'olopop' was a slang invented by the locals,
> because too many African-Americans from the mainland
> have learned what the term 'popolo' means and might
> get offended by it. 'Olopop' is 'Popolo' spelled
> backwards.
>
> Don Kirkman wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me I heard somewhere that gro...@your.addy wrote in
article
> > <emneoscdna30goujiop33p5qdtem973gj7@bwahaha>:
> >
> > >drydem scribbled:
> >
> > > =AAI heard the following on WTOP 1500 AM Radio[1]
> > > =AAin the Washington DC area....
> > > =AA-------------------------------
> >
> > > =AAThe WWF's *The Rock*[2] who is half-Samoan is scheduled to
> > > =AAspeak at the Republican Convention[3]. There is a movewith
WWF's TV
> > > =AAshow *Smackdown* which has been listed as
> > > =AAthe most violent and sexist TV show by certain family
> > > =AAto remove him as a speaker because of his affliation
> >
> > > =AA[1] http://www.wtopnews.com/homepage.shtm
> > > =AA[2] http://www.therock.com/
> > > =AA I was unable to identify *The Rock*'s real
> > > =AA name nor whether he is half-samoan from his
> > > =AA official website. However, A. magazine reports
> > > =AA that *The Rock* is half-Samoan.
> >
> > >Samoan/ popolo- (Hawaiian for Black as the ace of spades, another
one
> > >is olopop or the 'royal' Hawaiians of the islands)
> >
> > Since 'popolo' seems to be the color of a nightshade berry, I assume
> > it's not the standard Samoan (not Hawaiian) word for a dark-skinned
> > person. It's more likely a pejorative like 'darkie,' 'blackie,' or
> > 'n*****,' isn't it?
> >
> > 'Olopop' sure doesn't sound very Hawaiian or even genuine; since
> > Hawaiian and other Polynesian languages like Samoan are known for
their
> > open syllables (ending with a vowel) is it even possible to have a
> > Hawaiian/Samoan syllable that doesn't end in a vowel? IOW, I think
> > you're lying here. The only logical conclusion is that you and
some of
> > your cronies refer to dark-skinned people and upper class Hawaiians
with
> > those terms.
> >
> > And there is no linguistic logic that would make Hawaiian and
> > Polynesian, closely related languages from the same parent,
*reverse*
> > the letters in a word to show an opposite meaning from a given
word. I
> > don't know of any language that shows contraries by reversing a
word, do
> > you?
> >
> > IOW, IMO you've posted garbage.
> > --
> > My new contact address is in Reply to:
> > Don
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
AmericanBeauty53
drydem wrote:
> Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>If you are
>> out in the sun and get pretty dark, people will call you
>> popolo or olopop in a friendly, kidding, endearing way.
>> It can also be used in a degrogatory manner, similiar to
>> the term 'nigger' which can cause many problems. White
>> people generally don't use this term.
>
>.........................
>However, I am interested in avoiding the use of any
>possibly degoratory terms in the interest of diplomacy.
>Do you know when this slang term first came into use?
>How wide spread (i.e. In what regions) is this slang
>term used? Why would Blacks be offended by the usage of
>popolo - is there any history or story?
We are Haole, our son is Popolo. Like any other term, it generally depends on
the context in which it is used.
If someone called our son "Nigger," it would trigger a response that either got
that person or me hurt.
Popolo-well it just depends on who, how, and why.
Michael Z.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
drydem wrote:
>
> Do you know when this slang term first came into use?
As far as olopop, my cousin who introduced me to this word did it back in
the early 80s. Other than that, I've never heard it before however I know I
haven't even heard her say "popolo" back then either. But my own experience
i know I've heard that word since the early 80s. As for popolo, I really
don't know.
>
> How wide spread (i.e. In what regions) is this slang
> term used? Why would Blacks be offended by the usage of
> popolo - is there any history or story?
>
As far as I know it's only limited to Hawai`i. Even though I teach all of
my friends here in CA the words we use back home, I know they don't use it
among their friends.
>
> Grouch asserted that the term Hapa does not include
> persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
> use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
> thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
> mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
> on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
> Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
> extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
> be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
> term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
> mother is Samoan and father is african american).
> What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
Yes, you are right that hapa indicates someone of mixed heritage just as I
mentioned earlier. But I think what Grouch is neglecting to say that since
there is a term for "popolos", that it's better to be specific. Hapa isn't
as specific either although most people assume that it means part Haole
which is normally the case. My brother is hapa popolo but we don't call him
"hapa" nor do I tell my friends that he's "hapa". I tell them that my
brother is popolo and since they know that we are blood related, that they
know he's not PURE popolo and that he is obivously of mixed blood. Popolo
to me is just being specific, not totally "proper" nor is "hapa" just
proper. Just specific.
Bruce Satow
> Does Hapa My Second Question is unanswered.
> -------------------------------
> persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
> use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
> thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
> mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
> on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
> Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
> extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
> be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
> term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
> mother is Samoan and father is african american).
> What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
half. Hawaiian pidgon is a big mix of words from various cultures. Hapa
is used in Hawaii to refer to those who are half breeds or of mixed
blood. It can be used as in a friendly, kidding, endearing way or can
also be used in a degrogatory manner.
The term 'Popolo' is not used only for black people, but also Samoan as
well, depending on the context you are in. If you are mainly of Chinese
heritage and your daughter is going out with a Samoan man, you might say
that she was going out with a popolo. The term 'popolo' refers to dark
skinned people. Again, like any other slang, it can be used as in a
friendly, kidding, endearing way or can also be used in a degrogatory
manner.
Asian-Americans in Hawaii tend to use alot of slang. It has spread even
to the mainland. It is difficult to know which slang words to use since
it is localized, as well as the approprite time to use these slang-word,
since it it cultural. In Hawaii you can sometimes tell which island a
person is from by how they talk.
There is a big cultural difference in how white people use words and how
most minorities use words. The perception of how a word is used
(spoken), is just as important than the definition of the word itself.
Judy Barrett
Bruce Satow wrote:
>
> The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
> Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
> half.
Don't think so. Hapa is a Hawaiian word. It is not a Hawaiianization for
"half," it's Hawaiian for "part." It's commonly used to mean half, but in
many contexts (like telling time) you have to further specify which portion
you're talking about. (Hapa lua kolu= half an hour; hapa ha= 1/4)
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Bruce Satow wrote:
>
>
> The term 'Popolo' is not used only for black people, but also Samoan as
> well, depending on the context you are in. If you are mainly of Chinese
> heritage and your daughter is going out with a Samoan man, you might say
> that she was going out with a popolo. The term 'popolo' refers to dark
> skinned people. Again, like any other slang, it can be used as in a
> friendly, kidding, endearing way or can also be used in a degrogatory
> manner.
>
I never heard of a Samoan being referred to as a popolo, but perhaps it's
b/c of their features, which is understandable if there are Samoans that
have more of a frizzy hair and dark skin. But then again, that could be a
description of a Hawn. :-)
>
> In Hawaii you can sometimes tell which island a
> person is from by how they talk.
Yeah, you can tell. My friend was telling me about the multiple trips she's
been taking to Moloka`i. She grew up in Kane`ohe, a country girl I guess is
what they say on O`ahu? In anycase, I said that I guess the people on
Moloka`i must think she's a native there and she said no b/c one lady
already approached her and asked if she was from the mainland, b/c her
speech was different. In fact, my friend told me that we who come from
Moloka`i speak so differently, that she has a hard time understanding. *L*
>
> There is a big cultural difference in how white people use words and how
> most minorities use words. The perception of how a word is used
> (spoken), is just as important than the definition of the word itself.
True, but it's not limited to just how "white" people use Engl., but how ALL
people use it.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Judy Barrett wrote:
I'd have to agree with you there Judy. I know hapa as "part" and hapalua is
more specific to the Engl. word "half". I'm sure hambun is hambun, but not
like they made that word into hapa. Now hanabuda is another topic. *L*
Kamakalei
<< The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
half. >>
That can be disproved easily by reading almost any Hawaiian language newspaper
prior to the Japanese arrivals here. The word hapa was already in common usage
in both time and quantative measures.
<< The term 'Popolo' is not used only for black people, but also Samoan as
well, depending on the context you are in. If you are mainly of Chinese
heritage and your daughter is going out with a Samoan man, you might say
that she was going out with a popolo. >>
Couple of things here. You are generalizing too much. First, the word itself
is not a slang. It may have slang-like connotations in its usage, or may have
changed to be used as a slang by certain groups. But its origins and usage by
many today tells us differently.
First, I would be very afraid to all any of my Samoan friends popolo - because
they are not. It would be akin to refering to a Korean person as Chinese or
Japanese - or a tall person as short or poor person as rich or - you get what I
mean. The bottom line is racial/ethnic/cultural/physical/ descriptions in
pidgin or Hawaiian are acceptable socially - but they have to be correct in
usage and delivery, or one would have to face unsavory consequences.
While your examples of usage doesnt sound familiar, perhaps it is because we
come from different "camps". While some camps may have generalized Popolo in
that fashion - I doubt that it was commonplace amongst the majority.
Why do I think this? Because over the many years of language classes I've
taught and attended state-wide, to local people of all ages, creeds and
backgrounds, we at some point have to talk about these different
Hawaiian/pidgin ethnic terms and what they mean. Dont remember anyone using
popolo in such a broad way.
To that end, I believe the majority of us who speak Hawaiian or pidgin today,
utilize popolo/uliuli or iliuli in the context in which it was created.
Kamakalei
Judy Barrett
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
> (Hapa lua kolu= half an hour; hapa ha= 1/4)
>
> I'd have to agree with you there Judy. I know hapa as "part" and hapalua is
> more specific to the Engl. word "half". I'm sure hambun is hambun, but not
> like they made that word into hapa. Now hanabuda is another topic. *L*
Yeah, but DUMB, DUMB, DUMB error I didn't catch until I saw your response ....
hour ain't "kolu"!!!
DOH!!!!!
lisa
I just found this discussion board and found it
interesting.
I am an African American female, and I lived in Hawaii for
about three years (No, I was not in the military).
As for the word popolo, I was never offended by it. The
way I saw it, and most of the other African Americans that
were there, is that popolo was simply the Hawaiian word
used to describe us. None of us saw any reason to get
upset over it. I never felt that it was being used as a
pejorative at all. I agree with the poster who said that
with minorities, it's often HOW a word is said, as opposed
to the word itself.
I think our ambivalence to the word had a lot to do with
the social climate in Hawaii. Unlike the mainland, there
didn't seem to be a lot of racial tension there towards
blacks. That's not to say that it doesn't exist in Hawaii,
but it seemed to be a LOT less so. I found that in Hawaii,
the issue of being black did not cross my mind the way it
does here, and it didn't seem to play a major role in my
interactions with people there. As long as I treated people
with respect, I was treated with respect. That's the way
it should be here in the mainland, but it's not. So, when
I did hear the word popolo, no negativity came to mind.
I miss Hawaii precisely because of the reason I mentioned
above. Although I am in my home city now, Hawaii will
ALLWAYS remain in my heart. Now if I could just hit the
lottery! :)
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Bruce Satow
I think you make the point exactly. I also believe that the people in
Hawaii are more accepting of other races than the rest of the U.S. What
is funny to me, though, is when my white friends go there for vacation
and then come back telling me it was a bit uncomfortable at times. I
asked them why, and they said that it was because they weren't treated
very well. I told them, I doubt that it was a racial issue, but more of
a cultural one. Alot of mainlander's go there thinking there will be
all these white people, like they show on TV, and also expect to be
treated nicely, while in the meantime acting like the "ugly american"
tourist. Sometimes they do tell me that they felt it was a racial
issue, so I just tell them, now you know what I feel like here in the
mainland. Usually that brings on a bit more understanding.
:)
healohito
Inoko is the Japanese word for "Hapa" and it is derogatory.
"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <motu...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:965701...@mochi.lava.net...
>
>
>
> Judy Barrett wrote:
>
> > Bruce Satow wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
> > > Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
> > > half.
> >
> > Don't think so. Hapa is a Hawaiian word. It is not a Hawaiianization
for
> > "half," it's Hawaiian for "part." It's commonly used to mean half, but
in
> > many contexts (like telling time) you have to further specify which
portion
> > you're talking about. (Hapa lua kolu= half an hour; hapa ha= 1/4)
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
<965684...@mochi.lava.net>:
Walter Lee wrote in Message ID: <965516...@mochi.lava.net>:
>> Does Hapa My Second Question is unanswered.
>> -------------------------------
>> Grouch asserted that the term Hapa does not include
>> persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
>> use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
>> thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
>> mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
>> on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
>> Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
>> extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
>> be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
>> term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
>> mother is Samoan and father is african american).
>> What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
>The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
>Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
>half.
> Hawaiian pidgon is a big mix of words from various cultures. Hapa
>is used in Hawaii to refer to those who are half breeds or of mixed
>blood. It can be used as in a friendly, kidding, endearing way or can
>also be used in a degrogatory manner.
According to dictionaries, 'Hapa' [only one p] is Hawaiian for part of
something. There seems to be a folklore explanation that it's pidgin
for 'half,' but that doesn't seem to be true, although Hawaiian
creole/pidgin did take many words from English, like mele (merry) and
kalikimaka (Christmas). The American influence was in Hawaii nearly
half a century before the Japanese began to arrive. Multiracial folks
in Japan are called 'konketsu,' [mixed blood], not hambun-something,
aren't they?
>The term 'Popolo' is not used only for black people, but also Samoan as
>well, depending on the context you are in. If you are mainly of Chinese
>heritage and your daughter is going out with a Samoan man, you might say
>that she was going out with a popolo. The term 'popolo' refers to dark
>skinned people. Again, like any other slang, it can be used as in a
>friendly, kidding, endearing way or can also be used in a degrogatory
>manner.
>Asian-Americans in Hawaii tend to use alot of slang. It has spread even
>to the mainland. It is difficult to know which slang words to use since
>it is localized, as well as the approprite time to use these slang-word,
>since it it cultural. In Hawaii you can sometimes tell which island a
>person is from by how they talk.
>There is a big cultural difference in how white people use words and how
>most minorities use words. The perception of how a word is used
>(spoken), is just as important than the definition of the word itself.
This paragraph sounds vaguely biased to me. Can you point to any of
these cultural differences, with attested examples? And are you
implying that white people don't perceive how words are used as clearly
or sensitively as non-whites? I think we're on dangerous ground here.
Bruce Satow
Don Kirkman wrote:
> According to dictionaries, 'Hapa' [only one p] is Hawaiian for part of
> something. There seems to be a folklore explanation that it's pidgin
> for 'half,' but that doesn't seem to be true, although Hawaiian
> creole/pidgin did take many words from English, like mele (merry) and
> kalikimaka (Christmas). The American influence was in Hawaii nearly
> half a century before the Japanese began to arrive. Multiracial folks
> in Japan are called 'konketsu,' [mixed blood], not hambun-something,
> aren't they?
Yes, you are probally right about 'hapa', being originally Hawaiian in
origin, but I think the Japanese influence and the slang folklore
probally messed up the actual definition. But then again, such things
are always changing. 'konketsu' does mean mixed blood, but I think in
Japan it is considered an old term.
Here's what I think is a funny story. My mom came from Japan after the
war and my dad was born here. We were taught that 'benjo' was the word
for bathroom. Well a few years ago, I went to Japan for a few weeks and
asked my uncle where the 'benjo' was. He started laughing and told my
aunt and cousins what I had said and they all started laughing. They
told me that they don't use that word anymore. It's an old word. They
use 'tei-arai' or 'toi-le' now. Even 'tei-arai' is an old term. They
suggested that I don't use the term 'benjo' in Japan. What has happened
is that the Japanese language has evolved while the alot of the Japanese
Americans here still use the old terms. I think 'hapa' is used with the
younger generation in Japan rather than 'konketsu' I might be wrong,
but from my experience that's what I've found.
Here's a another funny story, just the reverse. It's a little racist
though, so please don't get too offended. While I was in Hawaii, my
brother in law called one of his friends a 'ku-ichi'. I had never heard
of that term and it stuck in my mind. When I came home I asked my mom
and she never heard of it, but my dad started laughing. I asked him
what it meant, but he never told me. At first I thought it was a
Hawaiian term, but apparently many of the Japanese Americans on the
mainland knew that term too. So I called up my brother in law and he
told me that it meant that the guy was a tight wad or spend thrift. I
looked it up in a Japanese to English dictionary, but couldn't find the
term. Well someone finally explained it to me. 'ku' is the number 9 in
Japanese. 'ichi' is the number 1. When you add 9 + 1 you get 10. 10 in
Japanese is "ju" (pronouced jew). So when a person's a cheap skate, you
call him a 'ku-ichi'. The term is slang, Japanese-American in origin,
but not exactly Japanese - Japanese if you get my drift.
> This paragraph sounds vaguely biased to me. Can you point to any of
> these cultural differences, with attested examples? And are you
> implying that white people don't perceive how words are used as clearly
> or sensitively as non-whites? I think we're on dangerous ground here.
Oh no, don't get me wrong. No bias here. I think culturally other
languages like Japanese may have more words based on onomatopoeia or
have meanings that don't really have english equivalents like 'enryo'
which in english can be translated into 'reserve or contraint' but not
really. Also there's alot of non-verbal meanings from how things are
said as well as what are said. I know these things exist in the english
language, but I find it more prevalent in Japanese, from my experiences.
Interestingly, I've run into many caucasian people who I've worked with
who have said things to me like, 'you people don't tell us anything' as
though we were hiding some kind of secret from them or not willing to
share information with them. I've always replied, 'what the hell are
you talking about', and they always reply, 'you know darn well what I'm
talking about. You guys don't tell us what you are doing or
anything'. This has happened to me numerous times and I still can't
figure out what the hell they are talking about.
To me, I think that this is more of a cultural misunderstanding of the
use of language. I don't seem to have this problem with other minority
groups. Maybe the basis or cultural reasons of why things like verbal
contracts are more honorable that written contracts in Japan, and
lawyers and politics are so despised.
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
>
>I think you make the point exactly. I also believe that the people in
>Hawaii are more accepting of other races than the rest of the U.S. What
>is funny to me, though, is when my white friends go there for vacation
>and then come back telling me it was a bit uncomfortable at times. I
>asked them why, and they said that it was because they weren't treated
>very well. I told them, I doubt that it was a racial issue, but more of
>a cultural one. Alot of mainlander's go there thinking there will be
>all these white people, like they show on TV, and also expect to be
>treated nicely, while in the meantime acting like the "ugly american"
>tourist. Sometimes they do tell me that they felt it was a racial
>issue, so I just tell them, now you know what I feel like here in the
>mainland. Usually that brings on a bit more understanding.
I think that's about all you can do for them. What a traveler gets out
of his trip depends at least as much on the traveler as on the
destination and the people there. I've never felt the least bit out of
place of discriminated against in Hawaii.
And I want to thank Lisa for her post; the US needs other places to
become more like Hawaii (without ignoring that Hawaii does have some
problems of its own).
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that healohito wrote in article
<965763...@mochi.lava.net>:
>Inoko is the Japanese word for "Hapa" and it is derogatory.
Can you document that with a reference? None of my dictionaries show
any meaning other than 'pig' (= 'buta'). "InUko" ('dog child') may be
used as a derogatory term (I seem to recall vaguely), but it's certainly
not the standard word, which is 'konketsuji' (literally, 'mixed blood
baby'); an older less loaded word is 'ai no ko,' literally the same as
English 'love child;' in English this simply means born out of wedlock,
but in Japanese it has the connotation of mixed ethnicity.
>"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <motu...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>message news:965701...@mochi.lava.net...
>> Judy Barrett wrote:
>> > Bruce Satow wrote:
>> > > The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
>> > > Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
>> > > half.
>> > Don't think so. Hapa is a Hawaiian word. It is not a Hawaiianization
>for
>> > "half," it's Hawaiian for "part." It's commonly used to mean half, but
>in
>> > many contexts (like telling time) you have to further specify which
>portion
>> > you're talking about. (Hapa lua kolu= half an hour; hapa ha= 1/4)
>> I'd have to agree with you there Judy. I know hapa as "part" and hapalua
>is
>> more specific to the Engl. word "half". I'm sure hambun is hambun, but
>not
>> like they made that word into hapa. Now hanabuda is another topic. *L*
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>> According to dictionaries, 'Hapa' [only one p] is Hawaiian for part of
>> something.
[...]
>Yes, you are probally right about 'hapa', being originally Hawaiian in
>origin, but I think the Japanese influence and the slang folklore
>probally messed up the actual definition. But then again, such things
>are always changing. 'konketsu' does mean mixed blood, but I think in
>Japan it is considered an old term.
I just wrote more on 'konketsu' in another post.
>Here's what I think is a funny story. My mom came from Japan after the
>war and my dad was born here. We were taught that 'benjo' was the word
>for bathroom. Well a few years ago, I went to Japan for a few weeks and
>asked my uncle where the 'benjo' was. He started laughing and told my
>aunt and cousins what I had said and they all started laughing. They
>told me that they don't use that word anymore. It's an old word. They
>use 'tei-arai' or 'toi-le' now. Even 'tei-arai' is an old term. They
>suggested that I don't use the term 'benjo' in Japan. What has happened
>is that the Japanese language has evolved while the alot of the Japanese
>Americans here still use the old terms. I think 'hapa' is used with the
>younger generation in Japan rather than 'konketsu' I might be wrong,
>but from my experience that's what I've found.
AFAIK 'benjo' is still used, but it's always been considered kind of
impolite and undesirable; 'otearai' (no 'i' after the 'e') is very
common, but it literally means a place to wash hands; this is almost
exactly the same difference as in English between asking for the toilet
and asking for the bathroom--the speaker means the same thing but
there's a difference in politeness--one's direct and the other's
indirect. Japan usually favors the indirect way to say things that
might be offensive or impolite.
>Here's a another funny story, just the reverse. It's a little racist
>though, so please don't get too offended. While I was in Hawaii, my
>brother in law called one of his friends a 'ku-ichi'. I had never heard
>of that term and it stuck in my mind. When I came home I asked my mom
>and she never heard of it, but my dad started laughing. I asked him
>what it meant, but he never told me. At first I thought it was a
>Hawaiian term, but apparently many of the Japanese Americans on the
>mainland knew that term too. So I called up my brother in law and he
>told me that it meant that the guy was a tight wad or spend thrift. I
>looked it up in a Japanese to English dictionary, but couldn't find the
>term. Well someone finally explained it to me. 'ku' is the number 9 in
>Japanese. 'ichi' is the number 1. When you add 9 + 1 you get 10. 10 in
>Japanese is "ju" (pronouced jew). So when a person's a cheap skate, you
>call him a 'ku-ichi'. The term is slang, Japanese-American in origin,
>but not exactly Japanese - Japanese if you get my drift.
This sounds a little suspicious, like a humorous explanation, but not
impossible. But 'ten' is also pronounced 'tou' just as often as it is
'juu' and 'nine' is also pronounced 'kyu.' Second, there are Japanese
words very close in sound already, kuishimbo for a voracious eater and
kuichigai for contention or discord. I don't have a JA > English
dictionary, so I can't follow up on it beyond this.
>> This paragraph sounds vaguely biased to me. Can you point to any of
>> these cultural differences, with attested examples? And are you
>> implying that white people don't perceive how words are used as clearly
>> or sensitively as non-whites? I think we're on dangerous ground here.
>Oh no, don't get me wrong. No bias here. I think culturally other
>languages like Japanese may have more words based on onomatopoeia or
>have meanings that don't really have english equivalents like 'enryo'
>which in english can be translated into 'reserve or contraint' but not
>really. Also there's alot of non-verbal meanings from how things are
>said as well as what are said. I know these things exist in the english
>language, but I find it more prevalent in Japanese, from my experiences.
Okay, but it works both ways; there are connotations and concepts and
implications from Western languages that are badly misunderstood among
Japanese speakers as well, and going in both directions there are
concepts and expressions that defy accurate translation.
>Interestingly, I've run into many caucasian people who I've worked with
>who have said things to me like, 'you people don't tell us anything' as
>though we were hiding some kind of secret from them or not willing to
>share information with them. I've always replied, 'what the hell are
>you talking about', and they always reply, 'you know darn well what I'm
>talking about. You guys don't tell us what you are doing or
>anything'. This has happened to me numerous times and I still can't
>figure out what the hell they are talking about.
First, they're off-base to begin with when they talk about 'you people'
as though all of any ethnic or cultural group is interchangeable with or
representative of all the others. They obviously depend on the old
stereotype of inscrutable Asians and 'they're all alike.' I don't know
how you get around it, but that's what this news group is supposed to
explore and discuss, among other things.
>To me, I think that this is more of a cultural misunderstanding of the
>use of language. I don't seem to have this problem with other minority
>groups. Maybe the basis or cultural reasons of why things like verbal
>contracts are more honorable that written contracts in Japan, and
>lawyers and politics are so despised.
Fair points, but perhaps the restriction of education and literacy to
the privileged classes through much of Japanese history (and the same
for Western history) has made the common people suspicious of documents
and they haven't overcome that yet.
Not For Smoking!
On 9 Aug 2000 20:05:06 GMT, Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu>
wrote:
>Here's what I think is a funny story. My mom came from Japan after the
>war and my dad was born here. We were taught that 'benjo' was the word
>for bathroom. Well a few years ago, I went to Japan for a few weeks and
>asked my uncle where the 'benjo' was. He started laughing and told my
>aunt and cousins what I had said and they all started laughing. They
>told me that they don't use that word anymore. It's an old word. They
>use 'tei-arai' or 'toi-le' now. Even 'tei-arai' is an old term. They
>suggested that I don't use the term 'benjo' in Japan. What has happened
>is that the Japanese language has evolved while the alot of the Japanese
>Americans here still use the old terms.
My father was stationed in Japan just after the Korean war, at a base
on Kyushu. After a while, he learned a lot of Japanese from the
bargirls.
He got sent up to Tokyo on an assignment, and went into a bar (of
course). Feeling rather proud of himself for his command of the
language, he asked where the benjo was, and the bargirl began
laughing. Eventually, she explained that that was a country word, not
one used in refined Tokyo. It's sort of the equivalent of "sh*tter."
Most of the Japanese here came from Kyushu, so the language they used
was pretty rough, and it didn't evolve along the same lines as in
Japan. So "benjo" is a typical Hawaii Japanese term, while otearai
(honorable hands washing) is the current Nihon term.
Incidentally, when I traveled in Japan, it seemed to me that the women
got better looking the further south I went. I suspect it was because
they looked more and more like the girls I went to school with. I saw
women swinging hoes on Kyushu who should have been on magazine covers.
Not For Smoking!
On 8 Aug 2000 19:20:02 GMT, Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu>
wrote:
>
>a cultural one. Alot of mainlander's go there thinking there will be
>all these white people, like they show on TV, and also expect to be
>treated nicely, while in the meantime acting like the "ugly american"
>tourist.
No kidding. I've had to shut down an obnoxious tourist on occasion.
Ran into one guy on Kauai who had come in too late to check onto the
plane, and was insisting that the gate crew do SOMETHING for him. She
was trying to go thorugh the preflight checkout with the crew so they
could take off, but he just would not give her any peace.
Eventully I got sick of listening to him, and went up to ask him if he
wanted her to go pull someone off the plane so he could get on. He
turned on me like a viper, and she got her job done and booked out of
there. Fun!
Bruce Satow
That's totally a cool story. But guess what? Even now 'te-arai' is
being replaced by 'toi-le'. Funny and neat that one can see languages
evolve...
"Not For Smoking!" wrote:
>
> On 9 Aug 2000 20:05:06 GMT, Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu>
Bruce Satow
I'm pretty impressed with your knowledge. I just want to thank you for
all the info you have given me. Clarifing and enlighening. I've heard
the word 'Inu-no-ko' or 'Un-ko-no-ko' but not 'Inoko' or 'Inuko'. Sounds
like a shorting to me. Also I thought 'aiko' was the litteral
translation for 'love-child'. Sorry about my romanji. I was never
formally educated in a class, so I'm typing in the pronunciations on the
fly.
>Okay, but it works both ways; there are connotations and concepts and
>implications from Western languages that are badly misunderstood among
>Japanese speakers as well, and going in both directions there are
>concepts and expressions that defy accurate translation.
>They obviously depend on the old stereotype of inscrutable Asians and
>'they're all alike.' I don't know how you get around it, but that's
>what this news group is supposed to explore and discuss, among other things.
I understand your point, but can you give me some examples? Maybe I'm
misunderstanding some of these
connotations and concepts and implications from both sides. It strange
for me to be on the 'fence' My father was 'kibei' never completed high
school and my mom is from Japan and I was born and raised here. So I
see things, like other Asian-Americans, maybe a bit differently than the
general American public. My life experiences here has often reinforced
the stereotype, 'never trust the whiteman'. I'm not saying I'm racist,
but often times I have to be a bit more paranoid than I should be.
Michael J Wise
Bruce Satow wrote:
> That's totally a cool story. But guess what? Even now 'te-arai' is
> being replaced by 'toi-le'.
Including the "l"?
I find that ... hard to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE, but... close.
Aloha mai Nai`a!
--
"Please have your Internet License http://kapu.net/~mjwise/
and Usenet Registration handy..."
Not For Smoking!
On 10 Aug 2000 22:20:02 GMT, Michael J Wise <mjw...@kapu.net> wrote:
>
>Bruce Satow wrote:
>
>> That's totally a cool story. But guess what? Even now 'te-arai' is
>> being replaced by 'toi-le'.
>
>Including the "l"?
>
>I find that ... hard to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE, but... close.
Nihonjin don't distinguish between "L" and "R, because they pronounce
the sound with a flat tongue, rather than lifted at the front (L) or
back (R) like we do. Depending on the surrounding sounds, it will
come out more Rish or Lish. I saw ramen spelled lamen on many
occasions on noodle shops. The use of "R" in romaji is purely a
convention.
Username
Travelling through Japan it did seem that the city folk and especially
Tokyoites were of a different breed. A lot more refined and yes uppity. My
mom's relatives in the countryside seemed so much more like Hawaii people.
In article <965937...@mochi.lava.net>, sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu says...
>
>
>That's totally a cool story. But guess what? Even now 'te-arai' is
Michael J Wise
Not For Smoking! wrote:
> Nihonjin don't distinguish between "L" and "R, because they pronounce
> the sound with a flat tongue, rather than lifted at the front (L) or
> back (R) like we do.
Not ... quite right. The "r"(i) in arigato is pronounced with a bit of a
flap to it, so it comes out sounding like "ardigato". Took me a while to
get it right, but.
> Depending on the surrounding sounds, it will come out more Rish or
> Lish.
Never heard that, myself.
> I saw ramen spelled lamen on many occasions on noodle shops.
Always saw it spelt as: (ra)-(me)(n) myself, but.
> The use of "R" in romaji is purely a convention.
It's more indicitive of the sound, from all the examples I heard.
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
>I'm pretty impressed with your knowledge. I just want to thank you for
>all the info you have given me. Clarifing and enlighening. I've heard
>the word 'Inu-no-ko' or 'Un-ko-no-ko' but not 'Inoko' or 'Inuko'. Sounds
>like a shorting to me. Also I thought 'aiko' was the litteral
>translation for 'love-child'. Sorry about my romanji. I was never
>formally educated in a class, so I'm typing in the pronunciations on the
>fly.
We're all here trying to learn and to help others learn (well, most of
us, but there are a few trolls about). There are so many slangy and
regional words that sometimes its almost impossible to say that
something *isn't* real Japanese, but I usually go with the most logical
and probable interpretations when they fit the situation. About romaji,
there are at least three systems in common use, the Hepburn invented by
an American that works well for foreigners, the official Japanese one
that follows linguistic patterns but looks odd to non-Japanese, and the
one in common use on keyboards (usually called 'wapuro' for wa-do
purosesa-). You don't see any of the three used cleanly very often
these days.
>>Okay, but it works both ways; there are connotations and concepts and
>>implications from Western languages that are badly misunderstood among
>>Japanese speakers as well, and going in both directions there are
>>concepts and expressions that defy accurate translation.
>>They obviously depend on the old stereotype of inscrutable Asians and
>>'they're all alike.' I don't know how you get around it, but that's
>>what this news group is supposed to explore and discuss, among other things.
>I understand your point, but can you give me some examples? Maybe I'm
>misunderstanding some of these
>connotations and concepts and implications from both sides. It strange
>for me to be on the 'fence' My father was 'kibei' never completed high
>school and my mom is from Japan and I was born and raised here. So I
>see things, like other Asian-Americans, maybe a bit differently than the
>general American public. My life experiences here has often reinforced
>the stereotype, 'never trust the whiteman'. I'm not saying I'm racist,
>but often times I have to be a bit more paranoid than I should be.
One common example is that Japanese and non-Japanese, when talking about
God, have entirely different basic concepts. To (many) Westerners God
is a superhuman power or entity, probably involved in the creation and
management of the world, while the native Japanese word has a meaning
much closer to the old Greek and Roman gods where each god represented
or was the protector of a place or an aspect of life or of specific
persons. Unless both sides are aware of that when they discuss religion
they may never really understand each other even if the words sound
correct.
Depending on the circumstances, kibei sometimes have had the hardest
time bridging the gap. Some kibei, of course, were returned to Japan as
orphans and raised there before returning to the US, but others were
sent as teenagers for high school or college education. Especially
before WW II the teenage or young adult kibei sometimes were deeply
affected by the Japanese wartime ideology (since the war started in
China and Manchuria in the early 1930s). They were also more apt to be
suspected when they did return to the US. But I assume your father was
a post-WW II kibei, to whom this doesn't apply much if at all.
Paranoia may be a little strong, but in every ethnic group some members
find it harder than others to trust outsiders. It may be personal
experience, family values, a personality trait, or something else.
I happen to lean the other way; I may be a little too optimistic and
trusting, but I'd rather err in that direction--but our personal
approach isn't necessarily a reasoned choice that we make. We *can* try
to change it, though, if we see a reason to.
I'll skip the details, but this ties in to the whole issue of
stereotypes, good and bad, and whether they are temporary tools or
permanent parts of a person's character.
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Wasn't the Hapaha a 25 cent coin of the Kingdom; and the Hapaloa the
Hawaiian dollar?
When I was growing up in my home town of Kahuku Koolau Loa, Oahu, I heard
the word 'popolo' used from time-to-time. It was always used when referring
to American Blacks. I never interpreted the slang/expression as being
derogatory.
I never heard anyone calling Samoans 'popolo,' however.
Samoans and Tongans are from Western Polynesia. Genetically, they are not
of 'pure' polynesian stock. They appear to have a mixture of Melanesian
blood. If my recall is right, the word Melanesia comes from the Greek and
it means 'Black Islands." So referring to a Samoan as being a 'popolo'
wouldn't be totally incorrect. All I can say is that I never heard anyone
calling a Samoan 'popolo' before.
My two cents worth,
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Dallas, Texas
"Judy Barrett" <JBar...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:965693...@mochi.lava.net...
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Michael J Wise wrote in article
<966036...@mochi.lava.net>:
>Not For Smoking! wrote:
>> Nihonjin don't distinguish between "L" and "R, because they pronounce
>> the sound with a flat tongue, rather than lifted at the front (L) or
>> back (R) like we do.
>Not ... quite right. The "r"(i) in arigato is pronounced with a bit of a
>flap to it, so it comes out sounding like "ardigato". Took me a while to
>get it right, but.
Actually it's rather close to the short Spanish 'r,' which is basically
a flap of the tongue against the ridge behind the upper teeth.
>> Depending on the surrounding sounds, it will come out more Rish or
>> Lish.
>Never heard that, myself.
I think that's more apt to be in the ear of the listener and not in the
pronunciation of the speaker.
>> I saw ramen spelled lamen on many occasions on noodle shops.
>Always saw it spelt as: (ra)-(me)(n) myself, but.
I've seen both, but 'ra-' is far more common (and correct).
>> The use of "R" in romaji is purely a convention.
All spelling, especially of Japanese using Roman letters, is a
convention. The convention is to use 'r,' as a scan of a few textbooks
(both Japanese and others) will show.
>It's more indicitive of the sound, from all the examples I heard.
I agree; an 'l' sound is made with a backward curved tongue, not the
straight one in the dental flapped 'r.' But Japanese vary in their
pronunciation just as other folks do.
Charley Brown and Snoopy
Living on a military base in Oahu and hitting Waikiki and telling us how
great Hawaii is for those 3 years does not make you an expert. Try moving
away from Oahu and those nifty little isolated conditions in the military
and live within the real local community like on the Big Island. You might
end up with a different perspective, I always made it a point to tell
elderly tourist walking the beaches of Hilo at night, that they should be
careful. Hawaii is the armpit of the world when it comes to the amount of
hate those people have. I got sick of having my house broken into, cars
stolen, and other acts of hate by these people. In 1976 When my parents
invested in Hawaii it was a better place, in the 80's things got out of
control with the heavy Japanese investments. In the 90's most of these
investments went belly up. The cost of living sky rocketed, the local people
who are basically not very educated (outside of Honolulu) found themselves
without those sugar plantation or tourist jobs and a serious recession
started in the 90's. The major source of income is drug dealing on the Hilo
coast in Hawaii right now.
Who do these low income and non educated people blame? The rich White man of
course! I stole their land and cheated their queen so the reason they are
unemployed is because of me...la de da da ect. ect. I heard it all there
time, what a depressing hateful place. Get away from the Waikiki and tourist
areas where they have security and keep the real riff raff out and go
actually live with them, you will get the correct tune and heart beat of
Hateful Hawaii. Almost everyone I knew was trying to sell a home to bail out
of there. Drive through the areas and take a look at the for sale signs in
everyone's yards. Living in a guarded gated communities is the only choice
left.
"lisa" <angel1N...@netzero.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:965727...@mochi.lava.net...
Charley Brown and Snoopy
Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
market since 1995? The economy is bad, the drug and alcohol addiction rates
high, the schools are horrible and the people are the most hateful people I
ever met.
Those tourist commercials sure don't tell the truth about Hawaii, do they.
"Bruce Satow" <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:965684...@mochi.lava.net...
>
> > Does Hapa My Second Question is unanswered.
> > -------------------------------
> > Grouch asserted that the term Hapa does not include
> > persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
> > use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
> > thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
> > mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
> > on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
> > Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
> > extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
> > be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
> > term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
> > mother is Samoan and father is african american).
> > What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
>
> The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
> Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
> half. Hawaiian pidgon is a big mix of words from various cultures. Hapa
> is used in Hawaii to refer to those who are half breeds or of mixed
> blood. It can be used as in a friendly, kidding, endearing way or can
> also be used in a degrogatory manner.
>
Alvin E. Toda
On 13 Aug 2000, Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
> Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
> if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
> market since 1995? The economy is bad, the drug and alcohol addiction rates
> high, the schools are horrible and the people are the most hateful people I
> ever met.
> Those tourist commercials sure don't tell the truth about Hawaii, do they.
This place is no different in these terms than many places on the
mainland. Perhaps you were more isolated from this when you lived on the
mainland. My own experience is that there are large ghettos throughout the
country where the "white flight" and local authorities try to isolate
these problems rather than solve them.
But here, things in general are improving. However, even a little crime is
bad for tourism. I'm sure the government here is aware of this, because
they seem to be locking people up at record rates. We don't have enough
room in our prisons now.
--alvin
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
>
> Who do these low income and non educated people blame? The rich White man of
> course!
Unfortunately these people DO tend to blame and people like you end up
being blamed for it.
> I stole their land and cheated their queen so the reason they are
> unemployed is because of me...la de da da ect. ect. I heard it all there
> time, what a depressing hateful place.
How did you steal their land and their queen? How old are you? In
any case, hate exists in various conditions. But it doesn't make it
right for you to do the same. You should try to explain to these
people what and why you are there and make them feel that you're not
there to take their land, etc. I have lots of white relatives who
have managed to be well respected in the communities that they live
in. Not just on Moloka`i but also on O`ahu as well. So I have haole
relatives living in different types of community and they're not
hated. At least not today. I was told that my grandmother was
against my uncle's marriage back in the 40s, but things changed. Can
you guess why? B/c my haole aunt showed my haole-hating Filipino
grandmother another alternative. If she can convince my grandmother
to love her like her own daughter, why can't you do the same? I've
done that to others too and now they respect me, they don't hate me.
> Get away from the Waikiki and tourist
> areas where they have security and keep the real riff raff out and go
> actually live with them, you will get the correct tune and heart beat of
> Hateful Hawaii.
Hate exists in all places. People hate Armenians, Koreans, blacks,
whites, Filipinos and Vietnamese where I live. Where doesn't it
exists?
> Almost everyone I knew was trying to sell a home to bail out
> of there. Drive through the areas and take a look at the for sale signs in
> everyone's yards. Living in a guarded gated communities is the only choice
> left.
>
Now you know it depends on where you live. In fact, where exactly are
these areas that have gated communities? You're not talking urban
Honolulu are you? I've been away since '89 maybe things have changed
that I do not know about.
Michael J Wise
Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
> Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
> if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
> market since 1995? The economy is bad, the drug and alcohol addiction rates
> high, the schools are horrible and the people are the most hateful people I
> ever met.
Charlie, is that you? I forget the last name, but you were a customs
officer, yes? Bought a house, but then the market dropped, or some such.
Am I remembering this right? And then there were the news reports from
"Chief Charlie" or some such. Or have I confused you for another?
Judy Barrett
Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
> Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
> if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
> market since 1995?
In a word, "price." Prices are the lowest they've been since the late
80's, property is selling like crazy, some markets are so hot prices
are being bid up. If your agent is doing a good job of marketing, the
only reason for property not to sell is price.
Not For Smoking!
On 13 Aug 2000 19:35:05 GMT, "Charley Brown and Snoopy"
<pea...@snoopy.net> wrote:
>
>Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
>if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
>market since 1995?
Because you want more than the market will bear. It's got nothing to
do with hatefulness, it's got to do with your inflated sense of the
value of the property.
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Wasn't the Hapaha a 25 cent coin of the Kingdom; and the Hapaloa the
Hawaiian dollar?
When I was growing up in my home town of Kahuku Koolau Loa, Oahu, I heard
the word 'popolo' used from time-to-time. It was always used when referring
to American Blacks. I never interpreted the slang/expression as being
derogatory.
I never heard anyone calling Samoans 'popolo,' however.
Samoans and Tongans are from Western Polynesia. Genetically, they are not
of 'pure' polynesian stock. They appear to have a mixture of Melanesian
blood. If my recall is right, the word Melanesia comes from the Greek and
it means 'Black Islands." So referring to a Samoan as being a 'popolo'
wouldn't be totally incorrect. All I can say is that I never heard anyone
calling a Samoan 'popolo' before.
A final comment: In the region where I was from, there were alot of wild
berry bushes about the foot hills of the Koolau. These were black berries.
I don't know the technical name of the berry bush, but as kids we always
referred to those berries as 'popolos.'
My two cents worth,
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Dallas, Texas
"Judy Barrett" <JBar...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:965693...@mochi.lava.net...
>
>
>
> Bruce Satow wrote:
>
> >
> > The term 'hapa' or 'happa' is Japanese in origin. Actually
> > Japanese-American derived from the Japanese word 'hambun' which means
> > half.
>
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Wasn't the Hapaha a 25 cent coin of the Kingdom; and the Hapaloa the
Hawaiian dollar?
When I was growing up in my home town of Kahuku Koolau Loa, Oahu, I
heard the word 'popolo' used from time-to-time. It was always used
when referring to American Blacks. I never interpreted the
slang/expression as being derogatory.
I never heard anyone calling Samoans 'popolo,' however.
Samoans and Tongans are from Western Polynesia. Genetically, they are
not of 'pure' polynesian stock. They appear to have a mixture of
Melanesian blood. If my recall is right, the word Melanesia comes
from the Greek and it means 'Black Islands." So referring to a Samoan
as being a 'popolo' wouldn't be totally incorrect. All I can say is
that I never heard anyone calling a Samoan 'popolo' before.
A final comment: In the region where I was from, there were alot of
wild berry bushes about the foot hills of the Koolau. These were
black berries. I don't know the technical name of the berry bush, but
as kids we always referred to those berries as 'popolos.'
My two cents worth,
Albert J. Del-Rosario
Dallas, Texas
"drydem" <walte...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:965516...@mochi.lava.net...
>
> In article <398B70FA...@ssl.berkeley.edu>,
> Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > I just happened to read this article and I'm laughing
> > my ass off because I thought everyone knew this. 'Popolo'
> > is a term used in Hawaii to refer to dark skinned people.
> > It is a term used by the locals.
>
>
> While the internet is global - Hawaiian slang is rare
> on the usenet and non existent on the East Coast.
>
>
> > In Hawaii many of the locals are of mixed blood. You might
> > be 20% Portugese, 20% Chinese, 20% Samoan, 20% Philipino
> > and 20% Japanese and have an English last name. If you are
> > out in the sun and get pretty dark, people will call you
> > popolo or olopop in a friendly, kidding, endearing way.
> > It can also be used in a degrogatory manner, similiar to
> > the term 'nigger' which can cause many problems. White
> > people generally don't use this term.
>
>
> Mr.Grouch's angry disposition and the lack of any history
> to indicate that he was a reliable source of information
> gave rise to my skepticism. I am familar with Hawaiian
> demographics ( I can get that on the net ) but linguistic
> information on the Hawaiian Language ( and slang ) is
> very limited over the internet and dictionaries on the
> Hawaiian Language are practically non existant in my area.
> However, I am interested in avoiding the use of any
> possibly degoratory terms in the interest of diplomacy.
> Do you know when this slang term first came into use?
> How wide spread (i.e. In what regions) is this slang
> term used? Why would Blacks be offended by the usage of
> popolo - is there any history or story?
>
> Does Hapa My Second Question is unanswered.
> -------------------------------
> Grouch asserted that the term Hapa does not include
> persons of black-samoan heritage and that I should
> use the term Popolo/olopop instead. Initially, I
> thought the term Hapa only designated a person of
> mixed heritage Hawaiian+ (non-hawaiian). Later,
> on the usenet a white father tells me Hapa includes his
> Asian-Whites children (born in Hawaii). So I
> extrapolated that any person of mixed heritage would
> be hapa (Hawaiian for Half). That's why I used the
> term Samoan Hapa for WWF's *The Rock* ( since his
> mother is Samoan and father is african american).
> What would be the proper Hawaiian/Samoan term?
>
>
> >
> > The term 'olopop' was a slang invented by the locals,
> > because too many African-Americans from the mainland
> > have learned what the term 'popolo' means and might
> > get offended by it. 'Olopop' is 'Popolo' spelled
> > backwards.
> >
> > Don Kirkman wrote:
> > >
> > > It seems to me I heard somewhere that gro...@your.addy wrote in
> article
> > > <emneoscdna30goujiop33p5qdtem973gj7@bwahaha>:
> > >
> > > >drydem scribbled:
> > >
> > > > =AAI heard the following on WTOP 1500 AM Radio[1]
> > > > =AAin the Washington DC area....
> > > > =AA-------------------------------
> > >
> > > > =AAThe WWF's *The Rock*[2] who is half-Samoan is scheduled to
> > > > =AAspeak at the Republican Convention[3]. There is a movewith
> WWF's TV
> > > > =AAshow *Smackdown* which has been listed as
> > > > =AAthe most violent and sexist TV show by certain family
> > > > =AAto remove him as a speaker because of his affliation
> > >
> > > > =AA[1] http://www.wtopnews.com/homepage.shtm
> > > > =AA[2] http://www.therock.com/
> > > > =AA I was unable to identify *The Rock*'s real
> > > > =AA name nor whether he is half-samoan from his
> > > > =AA official website. However, A. magazine reports
> > > > =AA that *The Rock* is half-Samoan.
> > >
> > > >Samoan/ popolo- (Hawaiian for Black as the ace of spades, another
> one
> > > >is olopop or the 'royal' Hawaiians of the islands)
> > >
> > > Since 'popolo' seems to be the color of a nightshade berry, I assume
> > > it's not the standard Samoan (not Hawaiian) word for a dark-skinned
> > > person. It's more likely a pejorative like 'darkie,' 'blackie,' or
> > > 'n*****,' isn't it?
> > >
> > > 'Olopop' sure doesn't sound very Hawaiian or even genuine; since
> > > Hawaiian and other Polynesian languages like Samoan are known for
> their
> > > open syllables (ending with a vowel) is it even possible to have a
> > > Hawaiian/Samoan syllable that doesn't end in a vowel? IOW, I think
> > > you're lying here. The only logical conclusion is that you and
> some of
> > > your cronies refer to dark-skinned people and upper class Hawaiians
> with
> > > those terms.
> > >
> > > And there is no linguistic logic that would make Hawaiian and
> > > Polynesian, closely related languages from the same parent,
> *reverse*
> > > the letters in a word to show an opposite meaning from a given
> word. I
> > > don't know of any language that shows contraries by reversing a
> word, do
> > > you?
> > >
> > > IOW, IMO you've posted garbage.
> > > --
> > > My new contact address is in Reply to:
> > > Don
> >
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Bruce Satow
Don Kirkman wrote:
> We're all here trying to learn and to help others learn (well, most of
> us, but there are a few trolls about). There are so many slangy and
> regional words that sometimes its almost impossible to say that
> something *isn't* real Japanese, but I usually go with the most logical
> and probable interpretations when they fit the situation. About romaji,
> there are at least three systems in common use, the Hepburn invented by
> an American that works well for foreigners, the official Japanese one
> that follows linguistic patterns but looks odd to non-Japanese, and the
> one in common use on keyboards (usually called 'wapuro' for wa-do
> purosesa-). You don't see any of the three used cleanly very often
> these days.
No wonder my romanji sucks. I wasn't taught any methodology, I just
write them using a phonetic structure like Spanish. My Spanish skills
is about as good as my Japanese skills, so basically I just use the same
methodology in writing.
> One common example is that Japanese and non-Japanese, when talking about
> God, have entirely different basic concepts. To (many) Westerners God
> is a superhuman power or entity, probably involved in the creation and
> management of the world, while the native Japanese word has a meaning
> much closer to the old Greek and Roman gods where each god represented
> or was the protector of a place or an aspect of life or of specific
> persons. Unless both sides are aware of that when they discuss religion
> they may never really understand each other even if the words sound
> correct.
I think you are talking more toward the Shinto side of things. For me,
I'm Jodo-shinshu buddhist, but also believe in God. Not one that is
traditionally any of the Judeo-Christian sects. My minister at the
church told us that there is no conflict in following both religions.
To the Christian this is considered sacriledge, I think...
> Depending on the circumstances, kibei sometimes have had the hardest
> time bridging the gap. Some kibei, of course, were returned to Japan as
> orphans and raised there before returning to the US, but others were
> sent as teenagers for high school or college education. Especially
> before WW II the teenage or young adult kibei sometimes were deeply
> affected by the Japanese wartime ideology (since the war started in
> China and Manchuria in the early 1930s). They were also more apt to be
> suspected when they did return to the US. But I assume your father was
> a post-WW II kibei, to whom this doesn't apply much if at all.
Actually my dad (deceased) was a pre-war Kibei. My grandfather came
to America in 1898, worked for Captain Sutter as a farmer, just before
Sutter croaked. Due to anti-Asian laws, my grandfather couldn't buy
or own any land so a couple years after my dad was born (1920), they
all went back to Japan in 1923. My dad came back in 1936 by himself.
In Japan, he was schooled in separating male and female baby chicks -
at that time Japan pretty much was the only country that knew how to
do it. When he came back to America, he made a pretty good living and
sent money back to Japan. I guess Japan was in somewhat of a economic
depression over there as well.
> Paranoia may be a little strong, but in every ethnic group some members
> find it harder than others to trust outsiders. It may be personal
> experience, family values, a personality trait, or something else.
>
> I happen to lean the other way; I may be a little too optimistic and
> trusting, but I'd rather err in that direction--but our personal
> approach isn't necessarily a reasoned choice that we make. We *can* try
> to change it, though, if we see a reason to.
>
> I'll skip the details, but this ties in to the whole issue of
> stereotypes, good and bad, and whether they are temporary tools or
> permanent parts of a person's character.
I think I tend to be optimistic and trusting as well, but as one gets
older and has more experiences in life which reinforces negative
stereotypes such as 'never trust the whiteman' it's difficult to change
one's viewpoints. I don't think that change is a one way street. I can
change and be more trusting, but if the other group is still
untrustworthy, then it cannot be my fault.
RK
"Albert J. Del-Rosario" wrote:
So referring to a Samoan
> as being a 'popolo' wouldn't be totally incorrect.
If you'd like, you can head out to Nanakuli some night and share this
statement with the local Samoan population.
RK
Michael J Wise
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From: Michael J Wise <mjw...@kapu.net>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.hawaii
Subject: Re: Popolo Berries.
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RK wrote:
> If you'd like, you can head out to Nanakuli some night and share this
> statement with the local Samoan population.
Methinks that would not be consistent with desires for a long life
and happiness, yes?
(8-)
Maren Purves
Judy Barrett wrote:
>
> Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
>
> > Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a shit hole,
> > if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties that have been on the
> > market since 1995?
>
> 80's, property is selling like crazy, some markets are so hot prices
> are being bid up. If your agent is doing a good job of marketing, the
> only reason for property not to sell is price.
If he has an agent. I've noticed that everything that's for sale by
owner in the Hilo area is overpriced. And then the sellers wonder
why they can't sell. They may just have to take a loss if they
bought at or near the peak of the market. Around Hilo property values
have dropped by about 50% (depends in location, etc.). At some
point most people here who didn't buy a long time ago had negative
equity, that's just a fact. You either bite the bullet and take
the loss or you wait until the market goes up again - which appears
to be happening now. And then there is of course junk property that
was bought by people sight unseen, and if they don't find a buyer
who does the same they won't sell.
Maren (not a realtor or affiliated with one)
Judy Barrett
Maren Purves wrote:
> If he has an agent. I've noticed that everything that's for sale by
> owner in the Hilo area is overpriced. And then the sellers wonder
> why they can't sell. They may just have to take a loss if they
> bought at or near the peak of the market.
Been there, done that! <g>
> Around Hilo property values
> have dropped by about 50% (depends in location, etc.).
Not just Hilo...all over the state. It's just that while some areas
(Kona, Kailua and East Oahu, most of Maui) have turned around, Hilo,
for the most part, hasn't yet. Neither has Leeward Oahu.
> At some point most people here who didn't buy a long time ago had negative
> equity, that's just a fact.
Yup. Thus the great number of foreclosures. Makes me nuts to see
Di-Tech's ads for loans up to 125% of value. Why not just put a
30-year loan on your car while you're at it.
> You either bite the bullet and take
> the loss or you wait until the market goes up again - which appears
> to be happening now. And then there is of course junk property that
> was bought by people sight unseen, and if they don't find a buyer
> who does the same they won't sell.
>
> Maren (not a realtor or affiliated with one)
But you obviously understand the market!
Bruce Satow
I think you are talking about differences between the sub groups in
Hawaii. On Kauai, anyone with dark skin was called a popolo, and it was
used both as an endearing term and a derogatory one. It wasn't used as
a term to represent ethnicity, just dark skin. I assume on other
islands it was used the same way, dark berries = popolos.
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>> We're all here trying to learn and to help others learn (well, most of
>> us, but there are a few trolls about). There are so many slangy and
>> regional words that sometimes its almost impossible to say that
>> something *isn't* real Japanese, but I usually go with the most logical
>> and probable interpretations when they fit the situation. About romaji,
>> there are at least three systems in common use, the Hepburn invented by
>> an American that works well for foreigners, the official Japanese one
>> that follows linguistic patterns but looks odd to non-Japanese, and the
>> one in common use on keyboards (usually called 'wapuro' for wa-do
>> purosesa-). You don't see any of the three used cleanly very often
>> these days.
>No wonder my romanji sucks. I wasn't taught any methodology, I just
>write them using a phonetic structure like Spanish. My Spanish skills
>is about as good as my Japanese skills, so basically I just use the same
>methodology in writing.
Hehe. Except among language scholars your method's probably fine.
Spanish phonetic spelling is a pretty good match for Japanese
pronunciation.
>> One common example is that Japanese and non-Japanese, when talking about
>> God, have entirely different basic concepts. To (many) Westerners God
>> is a superhuman power or entity, probably involved in the creation and
>> management of the world, while the native Japanese word has a meaning
>> much closer to the old Greek and Roman gods where each god represented
>> or was the protector of a place or an aspect of life or of specific
>> persons. Unless both sides are aware of that when they discuss religion
>> they may never really understand each other even if the words sound
>> correct.
>I think you are talking more toward the Shinto side of things. For me,
>I'm Jodo-shinshu buddhist, but also believe in God. Not one that is
>traditionally any of the Judeo-Christian sects. My minister at the
>church told us that there is no conflict in following both religions.
>To the Christian this is considered sacriledge, I think...
Yes, right, I was more on the Shinto side. Sort of the same thing
applies to the Buddhist concept contrasted to Judeo-Christian, though.
As you say, Buddhism (and Shinto) are much less dogmatic and have no
problem incorporating beliefs or believers from other religions, but the
Judeo-Christian folks do.
>> Depending on the circumstances, kibei sometimes have had the hardest
>> time bridging the gap. Some kibei, of course, were returned to Japan as
>> orphans and raised there before returning to the US, but others were
>> sent as teenagers for high school or college education. Especially
>> before WW II the teenage or young adult kibei sometimes were deeply
>> affected by the Japanese wartime ideology (since the war started in
>> China and Manchuria in the early 1930s). They were also more apt to be
>> suspected when they did return to the US. But I assume your father was
>> a post-WW II kibei, to whom this doesn't apply much if at all.
>Actually my dad (deceased) was a pre-war Kibei. My grandfather came
>to America in 1898, worked for Captain Sutter as a farmer, just before
>Sutter croaked. Due to anti-Asian laws, my grandfather couldn't buy
>or own any land so a couple years after my dad was born (1920), they
>all went back to Japan in 1923. My dad came back in 1936 by himself.
>In Japan, he was schooled in separating male and female baby chicks -
>at that time Japan pretty much was the only country that knew how to
>do it. When he came back to America, he made a pretty good living and
>sent money back to Japan. I guess Japan was in somewhat of a economic
>depression over there as well.
Fantastic story; he went through some times that make current
immigration issues look like a piece of cake. He lived through the
worst kinds of discrimination.
>> Paranoia may be a little strong, but in every ethnic group some members
>> find it harder than others to trust outsiders. It may be personal
>> experience, family values, a personality trait, or something else.
>> I happen to lean the other way; I may be a little too optimistic and
>> trusting, but I'd rather err in that direction--but our personal
>> approach isn't necessarily a reasoned choice that we make. We *can* try
>> to change it, though, if we see a reason to.
>> I'll skip the details, but this ties in to the whole issue of
>> stereotypes, good and bad, and whether they are temporary tools or
>> permanent parts of a person's character.
>I think I tend to be optimistic and trusting as well, but as one gets
>older and has more experiences in life which reinforces negative
>stereotypes such as 'never trust the whiteman' it's difficult to change
>one's viewpoints. I don't think that change is a one way street. I can
>change and be more trusting, but if the other group is still
>untrustworthy, then it cannot be my fault.
It takes both/all parties to make a real change in society, and it's
much easier in personal relationships if all the participants cooperate,
too, but we can't always expect the other party/ies to do the right
thing, whether it's making the first move or reciprocating our first
move. Life is messy, isn't it? :-)
Michael J Wise
Don Kirkman wrote:
> As you say, Buddhism (and Shinto) are much less dogmatic and have no
> problem incorporating beliefs or believers from other religions, but
> the Judeo-Christian folks do.
Don't forget the Muslims. And yeah, something about a line that starts,
"Hear, O Israel..."
Followups to Talk.Religion, 'k?
Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Bruce Satow wrote in article
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>> We're all here trying to learn and to help others learn (well, most of
>> us, but there are a few trolls about). There are so many slangy and
>> regional words that sometimes its almost impossible to say that
>> something *isn't* real Japanese, but I usually go with the most logical
>> and probable interpretations when they fit the situation. About romaji,
>> there are at least three systems in common use, the Hepburn invented by
>> an American that works well for foreigners, the official Japanese one
>> that follows linguistic patterns but looks odd to non-Japanese, and the
>> one in common use on keyboards (usually called 'wapuro' for wa-do
>> purosesa-). You don't see any of the three used cleanly very often
>> these days.
>No wonder my romanji sucks. I wasn't taught any methodology, I just
>write them using a phonetic structure like Spanish. My Spanish skills
>is about as good as my Japanese skills, so basically I just use the same
>methodology in writing.
Hehe. Except among language scholars your method's probably fine.
Spanish phonetic spelling is a pretty good match for Japanese
pronunciation.
>> One common example is that Japanese and non-Japanese, when talking about
>> God, have entirely different basic concepts. To (many) Westerners God
>> is a superhuman power or entity, probably involved in the creation and
>> management of the world, while the native Japanese word has a meaning
>> much closer to the old Greek and Roman gods where each god represented
>> or was the protector of a place or an aspect of life or of specific
>> persons. Unless both sides are aware of that when they discuss religion
>> they may never really understand each other even if the words sound
>> correct.
>I think you are talking more toward the Shinto side of things. For me,
>I'm Jodo-shinshu buddhist, but also believe in God. Not one that is
>traditionally any of the Judeo-Christian sects. My minister at the
>church told us that there is no conflict in following both religions.
>To the Christian this is considered sacriledge, I think...
Yes, right, I was more on the Shinto side. Sort of the same thing
applies to the Buddhist concept contrasted to Judeo-Christian, though.
As you say, Buddhism (and Shinto) are much less dogmatic and have no
problem incorporating beliefs or believers from other religions, but the
Judeo-Christian folks do.
>> Depending on the circumstances, kibei sometimes have had the hardest
>> time bridging the gap. Some kibei, of course, were returned to Japan as
>> orphans and raised there before returning to the US, but others were
>> sent as teenagers for high school or college education. Especially
>> before WW II the teenage or young adult kibei sometimes were deeply
>> affected by the Japanese wartime ideology (since the war started in
>> China and Manchuria in the early 1930s). They were also more apt to be
>> suspected when they did return to the US. But I assume your father was
>> a post-WW II kibei, to whom this doesn't apply much if at all.
>Actually my dad (deceased) was a pre-war Kibei. My grandfather came
>to America in 1898, worked for Captain Sutter as a farmer, just before
>Sutter croaked. Due to anti-Asian laws, my grandfather couldn't buy
>or own any land so a couple years after my dad was born (1920), they
>all went back to Japan in 1923. My dad came back in 1936 by himself.
>In Japan, he was schooled in separating male and female baby chicks -
>at that time Japan pretty much was the only country that knew how to
>do it. When he came back to America, he made a pretty good living and
>sent money back to Japan. I guess Japan was in somewhat of a economic
>depression over there as well.
Fantastic story; he went through some times that make current
immigration issues look like a piece of cake. He lived through the
worst kinds of discrimination.
>> Paranoia may be a little strong, but in every ethnic group some members
>> find it harder than others to trust outsiders. It may be personal
>> experience, family values, a personality trait, or something else.
>> I happen to lean the other way; I may be a little too optimistic and
>> trusting, but I'd rather err in that direction--but our personal
>> approach isn't necessarily a reasoned choice that we make. We *can* try
>> to change it, though, if we see a reason to.
>> I'll skip the details, but this ties in to the whole issue of
>> stereotypes, good and bad, and whether they are temporary tools or
>> permanent parts of a person's character.
>I think I tend to be optimistic and trusting as well, but as one gets
>older and has more experiences in life which reinforces negative
>stereotypes such as 'never trust the whiteman' it's difficult to change
>one's viewpoints. I don't think that change is a one way street. I can
>change and be more trusting, but if the other group is still
>untrustworthy, then it cannot be my fault.
It takes both/all parties to make a real change in society, and it's
much easier in personal relationships if all the participants cooperate,
too, but we can't always expect the other party/ies to do the right
thing, whether it's making the first move or reciprocating our first
move. Life is messy, isn't it? :-)
Alvin E. Toda
On 15 Aug 2000, Don Kirkman wrote:
> Yes, right, I was more on the Shinto side. Sort of the same thing
> applies to the Buddhist concept contrasted to Judeo-Christian, though.
> As you say, Buddhism (and Shinto) are much less dogmatic and have no
> problem incorporating beliefs or believers from other religions, but the
> Judeo-Christian folks do.
It seems that less exclusive might be a better description. The
Christian folks want you to jump over the fence to their side, while
the Buddhists want to engage you. But it seems that in terms of
political dogma that the Shinto religion is the most dogmatic. It was
state religion of Japan for many years since it supported the idea of
the divinity of the Emporer.
--alvin
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Albert J. Del-Rosario" wrote:
> Wasn't the Hapaha a 25 cent coin of the Kingdom; and the Hapaloa the
> Hawaiian dollar?
Hapalua literally means part 2. *L* Actually that's the term for
"half", so half of a dollar while the hapaha (1/4) would be
appropriate for the 24 cent coin.
> Samoans and Tongans are from Western Polynesia. Genetically, they are not
> of 'pure' polynesian stock. They appear to have a mixture of Melanesian
> blood.
As far as I know, melanesians are melanesians and polynesians are
polynesians. Yes, Samoa & Tonga are near that border but go & check
out this site. :-)
http://home.earthlink.net/~motuahina/poly.html
> If my recall is right, the word Melanesia comes from the Greek and
> it means 'Black Islands."
Yup. Melan for dark and esia for island. Poly = many and Micro = small. :-)
Bruce Satow
Alvin wrote:
>It seems that less exclusive might be a better description. The
>Christian folks want you to jump over the fence to their side, while
>the Buddhists want to engage you. But it seems that in terms of
>political dogma that the Shinto religion is the most dogmatic. It was
>state religion of Japan for many years since it supported the idea of
>the divinity of the Emporer.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'engage' you. Jodo-shinshu is not exactly
Zen Buddhism. We don't exactly believe that meditation is the only path
to enlightenment, but rather compassion. Christians tend to go out to
recruit, but I haven't seen true Buddhists do that. Sure there are
western Buddhists sects that practice materialism and all that, but they
are not recognized by the other sects as legitimate.
Alvin E. Toda
On 17 Aug 2000, Bruce Satow wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'engage' you. Jodo-shinshu is not exactly
> Zen Buddhism. We don't exactly believe that meditation is the only path
> to enlightenment, but rather compassion. Christians tend to go out to
> recruit, but I haven't seen true Buddhists do that. Sure there are
> western Buddhists sects that practice materialism and all that, but they
> are not recognized by the other sects as legitimate.
Even here in Hawaii, many Buddhists are converted. "Engage" is just
refering to what you had earlier commented that Buddhists will accept
other gods such as the Christian or Shinto gods. Perhaps a more consistant
metaphor would be that Buddhists open the gate that fences off
their beliefs from other religions. No sect really recognizes
the others as legitimate-- otherwise why exist at all???
Evangelism isn't inherent in Buddhism, but any religious tradition
materialistic or not, is evangelistic in the sense that it
attracts attention. I don't see materialism as germane at all
when you consider that some Christian denominations are quite
materialistic-- Have you noticed the extravigance of the
Catholics????
--alvin
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Charley Brown and Snoopy wrote:
> Well, Hawaii is the most hateful place I ever lived at. What a
> shit hole, if it is so great why can't we sell off our properties
> that have been on the market since 1995? The economy is bad, the
> drug and alcohol addiction rates high, the schools are horrible
> and the people are the most hateful people I ever met. Those
> tourist commercials sure don't tell the truth about Hawaii, do
> they.
He keeps on bragging that it's great? It's nice, but it's no
different than any modern city in my opinion. You have the same
problems there like in any metropolis. I don't know what you mean by
"hateful". Anyone who moves to a place where they are different will
probably be judged in some way or another. I'm sure I would blend in
more back in HI than where I am now. But then again, this place
really is no different than HI.
And I can't answer your question as to why you can't sell your
property. With the bad economy, you expect people there to buy it?
*L*
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <966534...@mochi.lava.net>,
Bruce Satow <sa...@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> Alvin wrote:
>
> >It seems that less exclusive might be a better description. The
> >Christian folks want you to jump over the fence to their side, while
> >the Buddhists want to engage you. But it seems that in terms of
> >political dogma that the Shinto religion is the most dogmatic. It was
> >state religion of Japan for many years since it supported the idea of
> >the divinity of the Emporer.
>
> Zen Buddhism. We don't exactly believe that meditation is the only path
> to enlightenment, but rather compassion. Christians tend to go out to
> recruit, but I haven't seen true Buddhists do that. Sure there are
> western Buddhists sects that practice materialism and all that, but they
> are not recognized by the other sects as legitimate.
I saw a newsclip some time ago, on CNN I believe, that showed Japanese
Buddhist leaders in Hawai'i talking about a new focus on Buddhist
evangelizing. I don't know what Buddhist sect they belonged to, but
they said that they had been inspired by the large numbers of
Westerners who have converted to or are attracted by Tibetan Buddhism.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/
Alvin E. Toda
On 21 Aug 2000, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> I saw a newsclip some time ago, on CNN I believe, that showed Japanese
> Buddhist leaders in Hawai'i talking about a new focus on Buddhist
> evangelizing. I don't know what Buddhist sect they belonged to, but
> they said that they had been inspired by the large numbers of
> Westerners who have converted to or are attracted by Tibetan Buddhism.
It hasn't happened. I think that their theology and organization needs
some revamping for our western traditions before they can change. For
example, adopting some Theravedic ideas on meditation would attract many
practitioners as well as preventing a lot of ulcers and high blood
pressure. Or also just adopting the western idea that the musical director
is an important part of the worship as is the priest. Emotionally, music
is a great way to express one's self or the feelings of the group. The
priesthood here largely sees itself as the traditional one of remembrance
of the dead. But if it could give the congregation a large say in worship,
then a lot of progress could be made.
--alvin
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <966945...@mochi.lava.net>,
We might ask why Tibetan Buddhism is so popular. I've posed this
question on another group and got different responses.
Some say that it has something to do with the romanticism of
'Shangri-La,' others trace the popularity back to the theosophy and new
age movements. Some think the interest has political roots, while others
think it is the fascinating Tantric elements that are so attractive.
Then there are those attracted to the Dalai Lama and other lamas.
Maybe it is a combination of all these factors. It seems that other
forms of Buddhism don't stir up the same kind of excitement.