Music & the BIG Picture
PJC
I think that in all of this discussion on
rap/industrial/Fugees/whatever, we have failed to see the big picture.
While this may be just another gospel according to PJC, surely most of
you will agree with some of what I am about to write.
First of all, from my viewpoint, music is a form of communication.
Whether it be from drums, acoustic guitars, synthesizers, clapping, or
even banjos, the purpose of music is foremost to relay a message.
Subsequently, musicians would then be those who use the aforementioned
tools to relay messages. By this definition, I don't see how anyone
could insult a group like the Fugees (or even Nine Inch Nails) by
saying they are not musicians. Just b/c a group does not send a
message that you don't wish to hear or can't comprehend that does not
mean they are not musicians. However, I will admit that those of you
who think that a tree falling in the forrest doesn't make noise when
no one is around will have some trouble with this concept. (But that s
another pseudo-philosophical debate which I will ignore for now)
Second, the question is what is the message that the musician is
trying to relay and is it a "worthy" of being relayed in the first
place. The way I see it, this is where the debate can and should take
place. When I wrote that industrial music was garbage (in not so many
words) what I was saying is that I don't like the message it sends,
nor do I like the way in which the groups send it. But, I in no way
was saying that they are not musicians and that industrial was not a
form of music. On the other hand, I do see most rappers and rap music
sending a message that is not only worthy, but needs to be sent. If
you disagree with me, I would refer you to several rap songs and
groups (including my favorite the Fugees). If you still disagree
after understanding the message that they are sending then so be it.
Lastly, just to briefly give my take on the sampling thing. So what
if a musician takes a song and remakes it for a new generation? I for
one am happy this happens, though I am not thrilled that it is
happening soo much. If new groups didn't sample old music, many many
many old songs that have viable messages would go the way of the dodo.
Not that these groups can't reinvent the wheel and make up new songs
that have the same messages, but it sure helps the new generation to
connect to the older ones. However, I am against redoing songs. I
don't see any reason why a new group would simply sing the same song -
word for word - of an older group. Even though, the message and the
connectivity argument stays intact, it does take away from that groups
unique identity.
Now that I have said my piece you ladies and gentlemen can go back to
your Fugees/Industrial bashing....
PJC
lau...@mass-usr.com
In article <33678319...@usenet.pitt.edu>,
pjc...@pop.pitt.edu (PJC) wrote:
> Lastly, just to briefly give my take on the sampling thing.
Hold it! I meant sampling as defined by Nyquist, Fourier, Laplace
etc.... The act of looking at a waveform, and breaking down its
harmonics for reconstruction. Usually done in analog to digital
conversion. Be careful.... :-)
> So what
> if a musician takes a song and remakes it for a new generation? I for
> one am happy this happens, though I am not thrilled that it is
> happening soo much.
You are off-base on this one, I am sure you will agree....
> However, I am against redoing songs. I
> don't see any reason why a new group would simply sing the same song -
> word for word - of an older group.
Now that we have cleared up sampling....:
Thre is nothing wrong with borrowing an old song and play it, in fact
it is probably the highest form of flattery in a musical context. The
problem arises when groups like Top Vice and T Vice make careers out
of the concept, it then displays a certain atrophy in inspiration...
>
> Now that I have said my piece you ladies and gentlemen can go back to
> your Fugees/Industrial bashing....
>
Cool:
Fugees : 20
Ind Music : 3
Aly "Self-appointed final arbitor." Laurent
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PJC
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:51:12 -0600, lau...@mass-usr.com wrote:
>Hold it! I meant sampling as defined by Nyquist, Fourier, Laplace
>etc.... The act of looking at a waveform, and breaking down its
>harmonics for reconstruction. Usually done in analog to digital
>conversion. Be careful.... :-)
You know, I use think this was the only place that I could get away
from that DSP stuff. Thanks for slapping me back into reality. You
know, I use to hate EE, but that is another story. Anyway, who says
EEs don't have a twisted, deformed sense of humor?
JBytes
I don't know what got to pjc...@pop.pitt.edu (PJC) to force him to
write:
>...Whether it be from drums, acoustic guitars, synthesizers, clapping, or
>even banjos, the purpose of music is foremost to relay a message.
>Subsequently, musicians would then be those who use the aforementioned
>tools to relay messages....
[a little cut and paste here in order to make my point]
>...On the other hand, I do see most rappers and rap music
>sending a message that is not only worthy, but needs to be sent. If
>you disagree with me, I would refer you to several rap songs and
>groups (including my favorite the Fugees). If you still disagree
>after understanding the message that they are sending then so be it.
I do not think that our purpose (as musicians) is "to relay a message." I
think you are confusing "music" with "lyrics." I tend to think that we
use music as a form of EXPRESSION. Is that the same as a message? I'm
leaving that open to debate. What kind of message are we supposed to
send/get when writing/ listening to instrumental music?
> By this definition, I don't see how anyone
>could insult a group like the Fugees (or even Nine Inch Nails) by
>saying they are not musicians.
I agree with you here; my only problem with the Fugees and other (c)rap
writers is that their resulting noise doesn't appeal to ME. If their
lyrics are sending a message, then it is one that I will never get because
I cannot understand what they're yapping about. I do not speak slang or
ebonics; therefore their "message" is lost in the translation. What do
you mean by "even Nine Inch Nails?" Brain cell per brain cell, Trent
Reznor (aka NIN) is a hundred times more creative than your Fugees will
ever dream to be. Just mentioning him in the same sentence as the Fugees
is an insult to him and all Industrial listeners.
>... Just b/c a group does not send a
>message that you don't wish to hear or can't comprehend that does not
>mean they are not musicians.
Let me say it AGAIN; making music has NOTHING to do with "sending
message." It has to do with creating noise that is pleasant to the ears,
and sometimes to the heart. THAT'S IT!
>...When I wrote that industrial music was garbage (in not so many
>words) what I was saying is that I don't like the message it sends,
>nor do I like the way in which the groups send it. But, I in no way
>was saying that they are not musicians and that industrial was not a
>form of music.
WHAT??? You called Industrial music WHAT? Where was I? How did Les
Cayes let you get away with that one? Unless you can write better, I
would advise you to change your tune regarding Industrial ASAP. Could you
please tell me what exactly is the message that you THINK Industrial music
is sending? And how is that message being sent? How many Industrial
bands do you know? How many Industrial CDs do you own? How long have you
been listening to Industrial? It really shocks me how comfortable some
people feel bashing something that they know nothing about. I guess
Industrial for you is NIN; is that right? You see; that's what those
bloody top-40 radio stations do to you. I come down hard on (c)rap
because I gave it a try and didn't like it; therefore I stopped listening
to it. Even then, I'm overexposed to it. Can you say the same about
Industrial? My point is, if you don't go out of your way to find and
listen to Industrial, you don't know anything about it. In other words,
you're not in a position to criticise it and call it "garbage."
>Lastly, just to briefly give my take on the sampling thing. So what
>if a musician takes a song and remakes it for a new generation? I for
>one am happy this happens, though I am not thrilled that it is
>happening soo much. If new groups didn't sample old music, many many
>many old songs that have viable messages would go the way of the dodo.
Once again, your lack of knowledge on the subjects you try to address is
far too obvious. Sampling is NOT the same as remaking (or covering) a
song - although a few snippets of a tune can be sampled while remaking it.
The Fugees remade/covered songs from Bob Marley and Natalie Cole; but did
they sample those songs? You tell me!!!
If you're going to bash something, please do a little research on it
first!
JB..
PJC
You know, I really didn't want to get into it with anyone who listens
to that pseudo-devil worship music called industrial but you picked
the wrong Haitian this time...
On 29 Apr 1997 18:27:04 GMT, jby...@aol.com (JBytes) wrote:
>I do not think that our purpose (as musicians) is "to relay a message." I
>think you are confusing "music" with "lyrics." I tend to think that we
>use music as a form of EXPRESSION. Is that the same as a message? I'm
>leaving that open to debate. What kind of message are we supposed to
>send/get when writing/ listening to instrumental music?
I suggest that you go and take a course on the history of music rather
than just music appreciation. Historically, every sound that was
produced in nature was produced to some practical end, not just for
the pleasure of it being done. As time progressed, people began to
appreciate the sound being produced itself, hence music as a form of
expression developed. Now, if you don't think expression is a form of
communication then you are just lost and don't even know it. As for
instrumental music the message you recieve is in the sounds itself.
Remember the last time you put on a strictly instrumental song to get
some significant other in the mood? Where you not trying to send a
message? Was the music itself not sending a message of relaxation?
Like I wrote before, just b/c you don't understand something, that
doesn't mean it is wrong.
> I do not speak slang or
>ebonics; therefore their "message" is lost in the translation.
You may not speak black slang, but you must be pretty good at white
slang to understand all that the industrial groups have to say. And
please don't tell me that "stoked", "thrashed", and "rave" in their
white slang sense are common words.
>What do
>you mean by "even Nine Inch Nails?" Brain cell per brain cell, Trent
>Reznor (aka NIN) is a hundred times more creative than your Fugees will
>ever dream to be. Just mentioning him in the same sentence as the Fugees
>is an insult to him and all Industrial listeners.
I would like to see Trent sing in Japanese, Creole, English, French,
and Spanish like Wyclef can. Ohh, but I bet you didn't know that did
you? I bet you also didn't know that Wyclef plays 5 instruments?
> Could you
>please tell me what exactly is the message that you THINK Industrial music
>is sending? And how is that message being sent?
From my experience most industrial music is on this radical rebellion,
live for today and committ suicide tomorrow high. Maybe, I just
listened to the wrong songs, but surely you will admit that the
majority of songs deal with suicide, drug use, and rebellion.
> How many Industrial
>bands do you know? How many Industrial CDs do you own? How long have you
>been listening to Industrial?
Its been a while since I listed to that stuff consistently, but that
is also b/c it has no more interest to me. When I listed to it, it
was still connected with alternative music and I liked:
Erasure, Anything Box, and even some early NIN.
> I come down hard on (c)rap
>because I gave it a try and didn't like it; therefore I stopped listening
>to it.
Who did you listen to????? And from your previous question I will
assume that you ownn like 50 rrap CDs. Either that or you are a
hypocrite for even asking me that question.
lau...@mass-usr.com
In article <336a401d...@usenet.pitt.edu>,
pjc...@pop.pitt.edu (PJC) wrote to Less bytes:
>
>
> You know, I really didn't want to get into it with anyone who listens
> to that pseudo-devil worship music called industrial but you picked
> the wrong Haitian this time...
>
Hey PJC, go easy on him.... he is still a brother... on the wrong path,
but a brotha nevertheless...
> On 29 Apr 1997 18:27:04 GMT, jby...@aol.com (JBytes) wrote:
> > I do not speak slang or
> >ebonics; therefore their "message" is lost in the translation.
>
> You may not speak black slang, but you must be pretty good at white
> slang to understand all that the industrial groups have to say. And
> please don't tell me that "stoked", "thrashed", and "rave" in their
> white slang sense are common words.
>
Words of the wise.... to the unwise....
> >What do
> >you mean by "even Nine Inch Nails?" Brain cell per brain cell, Trent
> >Reznor (aka NIN) is a hundred times more creative than your Fugees will
> >ever dream to be. Just mentioning him in the same sentence as the Fugees
> >is an insult to him and all Industrial listeners.
>
> I would like to see Trent sing in Japanese, Creole, English, French,
> and Spanish like Wyclef can. Ohh, but I bet you didn't know that did
> you? I bet you also didn't know that Wyclef plays 5 instruments?
>
Amen from this corner.
> > Could you
> >please tell me what exactly is the message that you THINK Industrial music
> >is sending? And how is that message being sent?
>
> From my experience most industrial music is on this radical rebellion,
> live for today and committ suicide tomorrow high. Maybe, I just
> listened to the wrong songs, but surely you will admit that the
> majority of songs deal with suicide, drug use, and rebellion.
>
> > How many Industrial
> >bands do you know? How many Industrial CDs do you own? How long have you
> >been listening to Industrial?
>
> Its been a while since I listed to that stuff consistently, but that
> is also b/c it has no more interest to me. When I listed to it, it
> was still connected with alternative music and I liked:
> Erasure, Anything Box, and even some early NIN.
>
> > I come down hard on (c)rap
> >because I gave it a try and didn't like it; therefore I stopped listening
> >to it.
>
> Who did you listen to????? And from your previous question I will
> assume that you ownn like 50 rrap CDs. Either that or you are a
> hypocrite for even asking me that question.
It is amazing how Less bytes and JCayes always get their butts whopped in
SCH. I am beginning to think these guys are also into S&M, whips and
chains and stuff like that.
Aly
lau...@mass-usr.com
In article <33673aca...@usenet.pitt.edu>,
pjc...@pop.pitt.edu (PJC) wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:51:12 -0600, lau...@mass-usr.com wrote:
>
> >Hold it! I meant sampling as defined by Nyquist, Fourier, Laplace
> >etc.... The act of looking at a waveform, and breaking down its
> >harmonics for reconstruction. Usually done in analog to digital
> >conversion. Be careful.... :-)
>
> You know, I use think this was the only place that I could get away
> from that DSP stuff.
No way, remember, the real world is analog, so even when digital
technology takes over, the analog front end and back end will still need
to be interfaced. Those DSP algorithms you studied in school will come in
handy... :-)
> Thanks for slapping me back into reality.
Cool.
>You
> know, I use to hate EE, but that is another story.
Watch it! My undergraduate degree is in EE, so I take stuff like this very
personally... :-)
> Anyway, who says EEs don't have a twisted, deformed sense of humor?
Oh, but they specially do, look at yours truly...
Farah M Jean-Simon
Thanks for giving everyone the BIG picture here. This is supposed
to be a Haitian new group. Instead of bashing rap music or industrial
music, we should be praising the Fugess <and any other Haitian for that
matter> for doing good for our community and portraying a positive image
of Haitians world-wide, regardless of the fact that you don't like rap
music.
I disagree with you on one point though. I think that it's O.K.
to remake old songs, as long as you put your own unique twist on it <Look
at Luther and all the songs he remade. Did you ever think that a song by
the Carpenters could be so soulful?!?> In the case of the Fugees, I think
they are simply paying homage to those who came before them. And "No
woman no cry" is so special to the group, they changed the lyrics a little
so that they can relate to their own experiences <"Hey, right when I left
Hait...">
Anyway, I want to remind everyone that MTV will be showing a
half-hour special on the concert in Haiti on Sun. May 4th, 10:30 Eastern
time. Support our people!!!
Peace $ Love, FARAH
JBytes
pjc...@pop.pitt.edu (PJC) wrote:
>You know, I really didn't want to get into it with anyone who listens
>to that pseudo-devil worship music called industrial but you picked
>the wrong Haitian this time...
I "picked" you? Weren't you the one who started rambling on and on about
something which you know nothing about? Oooh, I'm shaking in my boots!!!
>I suggest that you go and take a course on the history of music rather
>than just music appreciation. Historically, every sound that was
>produced in nature was produced to some practical end, not just for
>the pleasure of it being done. As time progressed, people began to
>appreciate the sound being produced itself, hence music as a form of
>expression developed. Now, if you don't think expression is a form of
communication then you are just lost and don't even know it.
First buddy boy here thought he could pass himself as a music critic.
When that didn't fly quite well, sonny boy is now trying to tell us he's a
student of history. Yes, it is true when I hear those birds sing in the
morning, they are trying to communicate - though not necessarily to me; or
when a dog starts barking and chasing your arse down the street, that dog
is trying to tell you something. And it is also true when Madona produces
her brand of noise, it is being done "to some practical end, not just for
the pleasure of being done." See "money!" The point here is that no one
was discussing "sound made in nature." The discussion was about "music."
Even you must admit there is a difference in definition.
>As for
>instrumental music the message you recieve is in the sounds itself.
Nooooh!! And I thought the message was in the smell!
>Remember the last time you put on a strictly instrumental song to get
>some significant other in the mood? Where you not trying to send a
>message?
NOPE!!!
>Was the music itself not sending a message of relaxation?
Sorry chump, NO! YOU were trying to send that message - NOT the music
itself. YOU have conditioned yourself to think of relaxation whenever you
hear a certain type/piece of music.
>Like I wrote before, just b/c you don't understand something, that
>doesn't mean it is wrong.
It is also true that just because you THINK you understand or know
something doesn't mean that you do.
>You may not speak black slang, but you must be pretty good at white
>slang to understand all that the industrial groups have to say.
Would you like to read some sample lyrics? Last time I checked, normal
English was used to write them. Can the same be said about (c)rap?
>And
>please don't tell me that "stoked", "thrashed", and "rave" in their
>white slang sense are common words.
Huh? I've been listening to Industrial for years and years; I've yet to
come across such words in one of the tunes. You've been misguided my
child! Please make a U-turn, while you still can.
>I would like to see Trent sing in Japanese, Creole, English, French,
>and Spanish like Wyclef can. Ohh, but I bet you didn't know that did
>you? I bet you also didn't know that Wyclef plays 5 instruments?
As I can remember, ABBA used to sing in English even though they didn't
speak a word of it. I bet you didn't know that; did you? Anyone can sing
in any language; look up "phonetic." Oh, by the way, do you know how many
instruments Trent plays? Do you know what instruments Trent use to create
his music? Since you're SO knowledgeable on Industrial, I thought you
might know.
>From my experience most industrial music is on this radical rebellion,
>live for today and committ suicide tomorrow high. Maybe, I just
>listened to the wrong songs, but surely you will admit that the
>majority of songs deal with suicide, drug use, and rebellion.
Just pathetic! Simply pathetic! Pick up Vivisect VI by Skinny Puppy, and
tell me what they're singing about.
>Its been a while since I listed to that stuff consistently, but that
>is also b/c it has no more interest to me. When I listed to it, it
>was still connected with alternative music and I liked:
>Erasure, Anything Box, and even some early NIN.
So sad! Erasure and Anything Box never had and never will have anything
to do with Industrial. Those two bands are what used to be called Techno
Pop; now they're referred to as Synthpop. The only similarity is the fact
that synths play a major role in both types of music. Didn't you mention
something about history in the beginning of your post???
>Who did you listen to?????
Sugar Hills Gang, Grand Master Flash, Neneh Chery...
>And from your previous question I will
>assume that you ownn like 50 rrap CDs. Either that or you are a
>hypocrite for even asking me that question.
It didn't take me long to realize that I didn't like it. Why waste money
on something you don't want? As I said, even though I don't voluntarily
listen to it, I am (over)exposed to (c)rap on a constant basis. I can
name you ten (c)rappers; can you name ten Industrial artists? See what I
mean?
Pale' sa'w kon nen tande' ti gasson!
JB..