Serving the Lwa ?
sou...@my-deja.com
As a Hounsi or as a devotee to one or several Lwa, one serves as he/she
is taught either by his/her initiator or by the Lwa directly, usually
through dreams or revelations.
As a Hougan or Mambo, it is quite different. Such a person has to be
able to call or/and receive ALL LWA, without getting any further, lets
just say that it is imperative and indispensable for such person to
have such knowledge. Furthermore, to call or receive a Lwa, it is
indispensable to know to what Nation the Lwa belongs in order to have
the proper drumming, the proper songs and the appropriate protocol.
Unfortunately, Mambo Racine is far from having such knowledge. Here
are some quick remarks.
- For 51 nations which are honored in Vodou, she states that
there are “three main groups of Lwa”…
- For Racine, the Rada nation incorporates the Nago Nation, even
though they are served in a quite different manner and have quite
distinct drum beats and different protocols.
- Racine doesn’t seem to know that all the Ogou belong to the
Nago nation, that Ogoun (with the proper accent) is a Yoruba generic
name for their deities, just as Vodou or Yehwe, in the fon language of
Dahomey. That we do not have an Ogou Feraille but an Ogou Feray which
name indicates his origin: from Ife and not his association with metal
in anyway. Ogou Badagris is associated with iron, she could just look
at their respective veves, to understand that. She still decides that
Sen Jak Maje has been borrowed from the Catholic church, and so on…
She, definitely, forgets that our cult is a cult to our Ancestors and
not to the Catholic church whom we salute at the beginning of
ceremonies, just as what we call a * protection*…
- - Following the Rada Lwa, the Gede … family including Baron and
Gwan Brijit are honored” - Racine doesn’t seem to know that the Baron
and Gwan Brijit are the deans of the Gede, the Gede are their chidren
and they all belong to the BANDA nation, with their own drum beats,
their own protocol, etc…
- She seems to ignore that there is only ONE Gwan Brijit or
Manman Brijit (- BrigitteS -) and that no Gede are ever called before
saluting Baron and Manman Brijit.. Furthermore, they are the last
Nation to be ever called, the other fifty ALWAYS precede the Banda
nation.
- What Racine calls Petwo is quite confused:
- The Ibo, Seneka (not Senegal) are saluted during the Rada part
of all ceremonies.
- Racine ignores completely the Nation distinction within what
she decides to sum up as Petwo. Petwo in reality has very few
divinities! Why doesn’t she try to know who they are?
- The Kongo nation doesn’t belong to the Petwo even when some say
that they will honor Petwo-Kongo Spirits.
- Racine seems to ignore the very important Zando nation, I
wonder where she would situate them?
- Mazila is a short name for Mambo Zila, Racine and she is not
locally important, she belongs to the Gwan family, what rite, Racine?
- Bakoulou Baka, as Mambo Zila is a very important Spirit and has
nothing local either.
- What about such deities as Zanpye Pongwe? Belekou? Klemezen?
Lemba Zao, Lento? Gwan Chalot, Manman Doudou, Papa Lisa, Mahi Luyiz
Boumba, Mambo Delayi, Mambo Atemiz, Gwan Pele, Gwan Bot, Gwan Alouba,
Gwan Alumandja, Gwan Tessi Fweda, Gwan Ibo Lele, Gwan Bosin, Gwan
Pemba, Gwan Silibo Vavoun, Gwan Simba, Gwan Matoundou, Mambo Inan, Gwan
Tchleka, Nonk Loufiatou Ganga, Zomadon, Adoum Gidi, etc. (all the Gwan
are the mothers of the Nations which constitute our Heritage and have
to be saluted with the first drum beat belonging to their Nation, did
you know that? Hmmm doesn’t seems so…
- The Nations such as the Mahi, Moundong, the Jouba, the Boumba,
the Mousoundi, the Kongo Mousayi, the Kita, the Anmen, the LaFlanbo,
etc.
- Etc, etc.
In others words, Racine is not up to it. She is confused and wants to
teach. Or does she really wants to teach? She appears like some one
looking for information all over the net.
To serve the Lwa, one has to know what he/she is doing and it is part
of all initiations. It takes at least 41 days for all Hougans and
Mambos and a lot of experience.
Anyone who deviates from the regleman doesn’t practice Vodou and
doesn’t serve the Lwa. New sects are born everyday but they aren’t
Vodou. At least, this is my opinion as a Mambo with more than 25 years
experience. From a Mambo that has no reason for greed and jealousy
since I am not competing for anything, only objecting to someone whose
attitude is not a Vodou attitude and whose knowledge is quite dubious
and might very well be harmful. I am certain that many of you all do
know what I mean.
... Inosan, pawe mwen inosan e
Juda layo kap pale kay nou mal...
--
Soutini
http://host.awwm.com/soutini/
www.freeyellow.com/members5/lamitie/index.html
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
kafo...@my-deja.com
sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
<big snip>:
> In other words, Racine is not up to it.
Those were some serious indictments.... I don't think you
will be invited at her next 'kandjanron'.
Anyway, who is Papa Loko in all this? I remember this song:
"Papa Loko, se bon, kite yo ale,
nou se papiyon, na pote nouvel ba yo...."
Kafou
sou...@my-deja.com
kafo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <918g9g$19m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
> <big snip>:
>
> > In other words, Racine is not up to it.
Woy, cheri, lap komanse konprann... pa fache, se ti plezi map pran la
a, sanble Rasin ap komanse konprann, se aprann pou l aprann, se leson
nap bay.
>
> Those were some serious indictments.... I don't think you
> will be invited at her next 'kandjanron'.
>
Cheri, si Rasin te bay kandjehoun, mwen ta la, mwen ta wele Ayibobo pou
li, Mamzel se kokoye. Li pa janm bay okenn kandjehoun. Mamzel se pran
lap vin pran.
> Anyway, who is Papa Loko in all this? I remember this song:
>
> "Papa Loko, se bon, kite yo ale,
> nou se papiyon, na pote nouvel ba yo...."
Good song, in the same order, map ba ou chante sila:
Papa Loko,
Papa, yo di'w se Wa,
Yo di'w se Wa, wa kite jouda yo pale.
Jouda yo we, yo pa we, yo pale!
Jouda yo we, yo pa we, yo pale la a!
Papa Loko,
Papa, yo di'w se wa.
Yo di'w se Wa, w'a kite jouda yo pale!
Papa Loko is the Lwa who made all Vodou the way we practise today. He
is all our Heritaj, He represents the old AmerIndian Tradition and he
is, as well, our Ancestor from Africa, He is the very dearest Lwa of
all Hougans and Mambos from our Ayiti Cheri.
>
> Kafou - Kafou, at times, you are very lovable -
(just to imitate you!!!
Racine125
In article <918g9g$19m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sou...@my-deja.com writes:
>For Racine, the Rada nation incorporates the Nago Nation, even
>though they are served in a quite different manner and have quite
>distinct drum beats and different protocols.
...etc.
For SoTiny, even though she knows how to read,
she doesn't seem to know the difference between
liturgical groups and ethnic nations.
SoTiny also doesn't seem to know the difference
between discussing ISSUES and attacking
PERSONALITIES.
I see no reason to continue a discussion with
someone who is so motivated by personal
animosities that they are willing to make statements
they know perfectly well are untrue, simply to
disagree with correct information because and
only because I am the provider of that information.
Peace and love,
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
kafo...@my-deja.com
sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Papa Loko is the Lwa who made all Vodou the way we practise today. He
> is all our Heritaj, He represents the old AmerIndian Tradition and he
> is, as well, our Ancestor from Africa, He is the very dearest Lwa of
> all Hougans and Mambos from our Ayiti Cheri.
>
I see.... thanks.
> Kafou - Kafou, at times, you are very lovable -
At times???? :-)
Kafou
Racine125
>He represents the old AmerIndian Tradition and he
>> is, as well, our Ancestor from Africa,
Well, now, he couldn't very well be both! LOL!
Papa Loko is a Rada lwa, he is the lwa in charge of the suleliye
when new Houngans and Mambos asogwe receive their assons.
Interestingly he walks with Gran Bwa, a Petro lwa also intimately
involved in the suleliye.
When the songs for Loko are sung, this is the point in a ceremony
when Houngans and Mambos exchange gestures of the asson,
which serve as proof of initiatory status. These gestures are like
a code - someone who watches what Houngans and Mambos
do at this time could probably imitate it, but they wouldn't know
what the gestures mean, and this is one of the secrets of the djevo.
Kevin Filan
sou...@my-deja.com wrote:
> - Racine doesn’t seem to know that all the Ogou belong to the
> Nago nation, that Ogoun (with the proper accent) is a Yoruba generic
> name for their deities, just as Vodou or Yehwe, in the fon language of
> Dahomey. That we do not have an Ogou Feraille but an Ogou Feray which
> name indicates his origin: from Ife and not his association with metal
> in anyway. Ogou Badagris is associated with iron, she could just look
> at their respective veves, to understand that. She still decides that
> Sen Jak Maje has been borrowed from the Catholic church, and so on…
> She, definitely, forgets that our cult is a cult to our Ancestors and
> not to the Catholic church whom we salute at the beginning of
> ceremonies, just as what we call a * protection*…
I have heard that there is an "Ogou Dessalines" honored in some
peristyles, and that Jean-Jacques Dessalines is considered as an avatar
(for lack of a better term) of Ogou by some Vodouisants. Is that
correct or incorrect?
The idea that certain people are avatars of the orisha/lwa is not
unknown in African or African diaspora traditions, if I am
understanding things correctly. I've gathered that Bossou and Shango
were originally kings in Dahomey who, depending on who you ask were (a)
incarnations of the spirits now served as lwa/orisha or (b) humans who
through their heroic efforts rose to semi-divine status. I've also
heard people claim that Elian Gonzales was an Ellegua (I'm not stating
that all Santeros believe this, or even that most do, just that I've
heard that statement made by people in the religion).
In any event: thanks for an interesting and informative post. You are
obviously knowledgeable on the subject of Vodou and I hope I can
continue to learn more from you here.
Peace
Kevin Filan
Racine125
writes:
>I have heard that there is an "Ogou Dessalines" honored in some
>peristyles, and that Jean-Jacques Dessalines is considered as an avatar
>(for lack of a better term) of Ogou by some Vodouisants. Is that
>correct or incorrect?
No. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is a historic figure, he has
his own holiday in Haiti just like Washington's birthday here
in the USA. It is possible, however, that some Houngan or
Mambo has a *personal lwa* called Ogoun Dessalines.
>The idea that certain people are avatars of the orisha/lwa is not
>unknown in African or African diaspora traditions, if I am
>understanding things correctly. I've gathered that Bossou and Shango
>were originally kings in Dahomey
No, Shango is an Orisha who was supposedly the king of
Oyo in Nigeria, not Benin. Bossu was a Dahomeyan family
totem, and it is unclear if he was a real person or not. He
is imaged as deformed and hunchbacked.
One real historical person from Benin who is now a Vodou
lwa is Agassou. He is a Houngan, he was in fact a priest
to the Dahomeyan royal family at the time of the diaspora.
Houngan Luc Gedeon used to call him, he was very tranquil
and kind of "deep", you know. His vever is the usual four-armed
basic structure, with a head on the top arm and a heart on
each of the other three. Houngan Luc always stressed to me
when drawing this vever, "Agassou has three hearts".
Racine125
>admit that, as a Haitian Mambo I do not make any untrue statements
YOU? You lie like a rug on the floor! LOL!
>Why should I?
Because you are a miserable, bigoted sourpuss?
> Money, power, etc... have never
>been the goals of any guardian of our Ancestral Tradition
Oh, puh-LEASE!
a.r.o., here is just one of MANY songs about the desirabiity
of material wealth:
Sobo e la, heh m asire,
Sobo e la, heh m asire, oh!
Mwen gen nan men mwen gen nan poche
mwen gen nan bank la,
Sobo e la, heh m asire, oh!
Sobo, there I am assured,
Sobo, there I am assured,
I have in my hand, I have in my pocket
I have in the bank,*
Sobo, there I am assured.
*As the song progresses, Houngans and Mambos improvise:
"I have earrings I have a gold chain I have a watch",
for example, and they will take out a paper money
bill or point to their gold jewelry.
STOP trying to make Vodou into Christianity!
>Vodou has
>never given anyone power
!!!!
VODOU empowered the Africans of Haiti to fight off the most
feared army of Europe, Napoleon's 34,000 troops under
Le Clerc! This led to the creation of the Republic of Haiti,
the first black republic in the Western Hemisphere.
You make these ridiculous statements just so you can
disagree with me! LOL! You forgot that the Republic of Haiti
had it's birth in a Vodou-powered revolution? You forgot
Bois Caiman? You're lost!
houngan...@my-deja.com
Let me jump in here just a minute......
>>>I have heard that there is an "Ogou Dessalines" honored in some
peristyles, and that Jean-Jacques Dessalines is considered as an avatar
(for lack of a better term) of Ogou by some Vodouisants. Is that
correct or incorrect?<<<
Correct, Ogou Desalin. Very well known, especially in the North of
Haiti.
>>>The idea that certain people are avatars of the orisha/lwa is not
unknown in African or African diaspora traditions, if I am
understanding things correctly. I've gathered that Bossou and Shango
were originally kings in Dahomey who, depending on who you ask were (a)
incarnations of the spirits now served as lwa/orisha or (b) humans who
through their heroic efforts rose to semi-divine status.<<<
Well, except that Shango is not a Vodoun/ Lwa from Daome...rather is an
Orisha from NagoLand, you are correct. The idea of "avatars", to use
your words is soooo obvious, but so often missed.
Lets say you are a priest of Ogou...initiated Houngan to Ogou. Now let
us further say that *you* are very well known & popular, much loved
Houngan. Now lets say you preform many extraodinary feats while you are
alive. Now you die, everyone mourns your passing. After a year, your
family makes reclaimation. You rejoin the community as spirit & start
assisting the community (naturally) as a part of that same community.
Now because you are being fed by your family, over time you grow
stronger & stronger. You where a priest of Ogou, so finally comes
during a service "Ogou Kevin" to announce Himself. See, avatar!
Understand that in Afrika, if someone asks you your name, the proper
response would be "my name is Filan Kevin" (family name first, name to
ID you as an individual second). Thus Ogou Feray is really Feray Ogou
in the American sceem of things. This is a sur-name..."OGOU"....& many
of these Ogou are avatars. Ogou is a group...family....clan name from
NagoLand representing a broad class of ancestral spirits....many of
whom walked on earth as men.
Now this isnt to say that Ogou Feray was ever alive in the flesh. There
are other ways for avatars to be born, but from the vantage of
ancestors......many avatar are created after the death of very
famous...or even notorious priests. So you see....Ogou Desalin....Ogou
Kevin....does this make sense Kevin? Do you understand?
This is also BTW where comes Lwa such as Manbo Delayi, Metres Lovana,
Dan Petwo, Kongo Jozef, & so forth.
Hope this helps.
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote (to Kevin Filan):
In article <919qnm$4ua$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Kevin Filan <rakshasanyc@my-
deja.com> writes:
>I have heard that there is an "Ogou Dessalines" honored in some
>peristyles, and that Jean-Jacques Dessalines is considered as an avatar
>(for lack of a better term) of Ogou by some Vodouisants. Is that
>correct or incorrect?
>>>No. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is a historic figure, he has
his own holiday in Haiti just like Washington's birthday here
in the USA. It is possible, however, that some Houngan or
Mambo has a *personal lwa* called Ogoun Dessalines.<<<
LOL If you dont know the Lwa Ogou Desalin?!!! LOL Boy, I thought you
had "studied with Houngan & Manbo from the South to Okap"? NOT!
>The idea that certain people are avatars of the orisha/lwa is not
>unknown in African or African diaspora traditions, if I am
>understanding things correctly. I've gathered that Bossou and Shango
>were originally kings in Dahomey
>>>Bossu was a Dahomeyan family totem, and it is unclear if he was a
real person or not. He is imaged as deformed and hunchbacked.<<<
Papa Bosou was the Towiyo of the Royal Family in Abomey. He was
a "sacred deformed birth". Thus he is an ancestor to all Vodouwizan. He
apeared later as the Vodoun (read Lwa) of King Agadja in Daome....thus
in Haiti we see Kadja (or Agadja) Bosou....another "avatar" of Bosou,
among others. This is a RADA Lwa BTW. (see post on other thread).
>>>One real historical person from Benin who is now a Vodou
lwa is Agassou. He is a Houngan, he was in fact a priest
to the Dahomeyan royal family at the time of the diaspora....
...Houngan Luc Gedeon used to call him, he was very tranquil
and kind of "deep", you know. His vever is the usual four-armed basic
structure, with a head on the top arm and a heart on
each of the other three. Houngan Luc always stressed to me
when drawing this vever, "Agassou has three hearts".<<<
Papa Agasou was not a priest! HE WAS A KING, & not at the time of the
middle passage.
He is/was the sib-founder of the Daomean Royal Line, the Nexesue of the
sepretist clan Aladahouno...from the Adja clan. He was the
son...offspring of Aligbona (daughter of the king of Tado) & a Leopard.
Thus he is a hephelim-type being (half human-half divine). Still in
haiti when he mounts, he obliges his horse to curl their fingers as if
they were claws...of a leopard.
Legend has it that it was Ayida who asked Agasou to "bring the Vodou
across the waters" during the middle passage. Now, was it a living
priest of Agasou who did this....or Agasou Himself? Who knows....doesnt
matter.
Here is a personality profile of Agasou's children (which are very rare
at this point):
Profile: The child of the Lwa Agasou
The children of the Lwa Agasou are rare. Physically, they tend to be
tall, lean, well defined, and beautiful. Our present policy of body
culture could be conducted by these individuals. Their movements are
graceful and aquiline. Occasionally they will be described as
androgynous.
The psychological type of these people is refined. They tend to be
intellectual artists. They are inquisitive, with greatly powers of
definition and detail. Their psychic structure is very emotional and
romantic, but they tend towards the mysterious. They are known to be
seductive. They adapt easy to urban life and, because generally lazy,
prefer a life of luxury. They have a very refined sense of taste.
Children of the Lwa Agasou are not given to discretion. They are
extremely proud and even vane. However, they are rarely boastful. They
are usually ambivalent types, well mannered with good character one
moment but they can also be gloomy as their ancestors. Children of this
Lwa are simply easily bored.
Oh & <humph!> BTW. Ill give you this lil' bit Rasine.
Hope everyone else finds this helpful.
Houngan Aboudja
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> In article <9199ao$nmo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kafo...@my-deja.com
writes:
>
> >He represents the old AmerIndian Tradition and he
> >> is, as well, our Ancestor from Africa,
>
> Well, now, he couldn't very well be both! LOL!
I didn't write the above.... Let's mind those quotations
with a bit more care... Thanks.
Racine125
>> >He represents the old AmerIndian Tradition and he
>> >> is, as well, our Ancestor from Africa,
>>
>> Well, now, he couldn't very well be both! LOL!
>
>I didn't write the above.... Let's mind those quotations
>with a bit more care... Thanks.
>
>Kafou
OOPS! Sorry, I know you didn't write that. :-)
Racine125
>Correct, Ogou Desalin. Very well known, especially in the North of
>Haiti.
I repeat that this is not an aspect of Ogoun included
in the orthodox liturgy. It wouldn't surprise me if this
*personal lwa* had developed a following in the north
of Haiti, though, since that is where the Haitian Revolution
began. It might simply mean "Dessalines' Ogoun", since
in Creole, as in French, the adjective often comes after
the noun. So "Dessalines' Ogoun" would be the Ogoun
served in the manner that Dessalines served his Ogoun.
That makes a lot more sense to me.
This also would be more likely in the north because many
"Houngans" in the north do not have the asson, and are
not kanzo. There are a lot of independant Houngans up
there - some people consider them less competent, others
consider them more *dangerous*.
Jean-Jaques Dessalines, by the way, was an interesting
and very ambigous character. He fought valiantly for the
liberation of Haiti - and he also commited atrocities including
the massacres of groups of defenseless Frenchwomen
whom he lured from hiding with promises of safe passage
out of Haiti, and abominable tortures practiced on those
Frenchwomen who were pregnant.
The tendency to schism and division, power plays and power
struggles, exacerbated the tensions between black and mulatto
Haitians. Ordered to purge the mulatto troops, Jean-Jacques
Dessalines slew at least 350. Mulatto historians later claimed
that 10,000 were massacred.
Finally Dessalines proclaimed himself "Emperor of Haiti".
Dessalines grew so insane, in the end, that he was assasinated
by one of his own underlings in 1806. This led to a power
vacuum which resulted in civil war again between the south
(under General Petion) and the north (under Henry Christophe).
Christophe, by the way, didn't fare much better. He also
proclaimed himself "Emperor of Haiti". He reinstituted
slave labor, built an imposing but militarily useless fortress called
the Citadel (the cannons of the day, firing from atop the walls,
couldn't hit anything below with any force, their shot was spent
by the time the ball hit the ground), made himself unpopular, and
finally commited suicide rather than be overthrown.
It's a long and bloody history after that- "Emperor" Faustin
Soulouque, on and on...
kafo...@my-deja.com
houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <20001214075831...@nso-cl.aol.com>,
> raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote (to Kevin Filan):
>
> In article <919qnm$4ua$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Kevin Filan <rakshasanyc@my-
> deja.com> writes:
>
> >I have heard that there is an "Ogou Dessalines" honored in some
> >peristyles, and that Jean-Jacques Dessalines is considered as an
avatar
> >(for lack of a better term) of Ogou by some Vodouisants. Is that
> >correct or incorrect?
>
> >>>No. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is a historic figure, he has
> his own holiday in Haiti just like Washington's birthday here
> in the USA. It is possible, however, that some Houngan or
> Mambo has a *personal lwa* called Ogoun Dessalines.<<<
>
> LOL If you dont know the Lwa Ogou Desalin?!!! LOL Boy, I thought you
> had "studied with Houngan & Manbo from the South to Okap"? NOT!
Ahem! This is probably none of my business, but I am uncomfortable
with the idea of a Houngan, stalking a Mambo on usenet... What is
the point?
Kafou "Calling the shots as I see them...." Lobo
Kathy Latzoni
kafo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91arco$uci$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <20001214075831...@nso-cl.aol.com>,
> > raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote (to Kevin Filan):
> > his own holiday in Haiti just like Washington's birthday here
> > in the USA. It is possible, however, that some Houngan or
> > Mambo has a *personal lwa* called Ogoun Dessalines.<<<
> >
> > LOL If you dont know the Lwa Ogou Desalin?!!! LOL Boy, I thought you
> > had "studied with Houngan & Manbo from the South to Okap"? NOT!
>
> Ahem! This is probably none of my business, but I am uncomfortable
> with the idea of a Houngan, stalking a Mambo on usenet... What is
> the point?
>
> Kafou "Calling the shots as I see them...." Lobo
>
OK, sorry Kafou :) , but this has been one of my pet peeves in other
NGs as well...
You're aware that the word "stalker" has a legal definition, and that
when you say someone else is "stalking," you are accusing them of
having committed a crime, right? [I'm sure you've seen enough of my
looong SCH posts to know that libel law is a current topic on both
newsgroups... in my last post to cat, in fact, we were talking about
the difference between flame wars and stalking/harassment...]
Anyhow, no criticism of you is intended; I just wanted to find out what
definition of "stalker" you were using [the California Penal Code? Or
another one?], and how exactly you saw Aboudja's post as fitting that
definition.
Thanks a lot!
-- Kathy L.
houngan...@my-deja.com
with the idea of a Houngan, stalking a Mambo on usenet... What is the
point?<<<
Dear me, stalking!?!! LOL Is that how it appears to you. Let me tell
you Mr. Kafou "Calling the shots as I see them...." Lobo, with all due
respect (I am sure), your right & *it* is not your business.
However, I dont mind telling you that my moron sister Rasine "Pouwi"
sans Bout sa (no end here) te la (who used to be here) daGinea is of
current amusement to me. Her teaching is ridiculous & although she is
quite capable of making her own self look stupid....much of what she
says is soooooo very erroneous, that, @ least for the time being, I am
interested in correcting. Dont worry, ill get bored one of these days.
Things are slow here right now.
Thank you for your concern though maChe`.
Ayibobo-
Houngan Aboudja
Racine125
writes:
>Anyhow, no criticism of you is intended; I just wanted to find out what
>definition of "stalker" you were using [the California Penal Code? Or
>another one?], and how exactly you saw Aboudja's post as fitting that
>definition.
I can't speak for Kalfou, but I think he means the
word in the commonly held understanding thereof, which
is following someone around in order to bother and
harass them.
I think Aboudja's activities fit this description pretty well -
you may not know this, but he even lurks on discussion
boards, and when people say something nice to me, or
express interest in the activities of my Vodou society,
he emails them piles of nastiness. They, in turn, usually
turn around and forward it to me with a question like,
"Who is this weirdo?"
I guess he thinks I'm mighty powerful - he goes around
saying I got my asson by force, I put words into the
mouth of Houngan Yves... gosh! I would have to be pretty
almighty brawny and commanding to make big black
Haitian men in their own country, in their own yards, in
their own peristyles, surrounded by their own people,
do my will! LOL!
And mind you, Kathy, I have never once disowned
Aboudja, I have never once suggested that he is not
my initiatory son, or that he doesn't really have the
asson, or anything like that! In Santeria apparently a
person can be kicked out of their house for doing a lot
less than what Aboudja has done, but we don't do that
in Vodou.
It might also interest you to know that Aboudja, like
every other initiate, swore oaths of respect and loyalty,
and those oaths have some pretty severe spiritual
penalties when broken - which is probably why I now
hear that the guy is walking around New Orleans alienating
people left and right!
You know, when you enter a tradition, and everything is
explained to you up front, and when done you decide to
go wrong, you have only yourself to blame. Before Aboudja's
kanzo, we all sat in the badji. The lwa Gran Bwa himself
came to us, and said, "Mambo Racine is your mother, Houngan
Yabofe is your father, Mambo Racine is your mother, Houngan
Yabofe is your father," over and over! I guess being a lwa
he could see a little deeper into Aboudja than I could. I warned
him, too, just like I warn every other asogwe candidate, "If you
don't hold that asson steady, it will beat you over the head!"
LOL! Et voilà!
Imagine how much time this man spends lurking and
slamming and scamming and slurring! What a fine
example of a Houngan - filthy words in English and Creole,
death threats, smear campaigns... oh, he's a real
fine big Houngan, yessirree Bob! :-)
kafo...@my-deja.com
Kathy Latzoni <lat...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Anyhow, no criticism of you is intended; I just wanted to find out
> what definition of "stalker" you were using
> [the California Penal Code? Or
> another one?], and how exactly you saw Aboudja's post as fitting that
> definition.
Usenet stalker: Someone who makes it a point to follow every move
of another poster. A stalker would rudely enter a newsgroup, then
start flaming at his prey. A stalker usually has plenty of time
on hir hands, and is usually NOT too bright.
Kafou
kafo...@my-deja.com
houngan...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>:
> with all due
> respect (I am sure), your right & *it* is not your business.
Cool.
>
> However, I dont mind telling you that my moron sister Rasine "Pouwi"
> sans Bout sa (no end here) te la (who used to be here) daGinea is of
> current amusement to me.
I don't get it.... You are translating to Kreyol, for me?
> Her teaching is ridiculous & although she is
> quite capable of making her own self look stupid....much of what she
> says is soooooo very erroneous, that, @ least for the time being, I am
> interested in correcting.
Cool, but why do you care? You have already had your asson, and you are
quite pleased, right?
> Dont worry, ill get bored one of these days.
> Things are slow here right now.
True.
> Thank you for your concern though maChe`.
Kafou Lobo: Sex, masculin.
Kafou "100%." Lobo
E. C. Ballard
Most involved with flame wars on usenet have a fairly minimal command of
English let along intellectual concepts or legal detail. This certainly
is true of the majority of "flamers" er posters of late around here.
The best solution is to kill file anything that smacks of being gossip.
Eoghan
houngan...@my-deja.com
kafo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>Cool, but why do you care? You have already had your asson, and you
are quite pleased, right?<<<
Wi, mwen kontan. M'pa gen pwoblem ak ason mwe. Mesi pou va mande.
Houngan Aboudja
Racine125
<ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> writes:
>Most involved with flame wars on usenet have a fairly minimal command of
>English
You know you're RIGHT! I don't know who makes
more spelling errors, Aboudja or Oshuntoki.
The other day Aboudja was trying to write "caveat
emptor", you know, let the buyer beware, and instead
wrote "civet emptor"! LOL! As you probably already
know, civet is a strong-smelling secretion from glands
in the hind end of a species of cat!
On the other hand, we had Oshuntoki's rendering of
"rabid dog" as "rabbit dog"... oh well. I make typos, we
all do, but these are a little different, I think. At least
it provides some comic relief from the banality of their
constant wanking. :-)
The best one I've seen recently was "freedom of speach",
but I forget who wrote that. Someone who wanted to
provide some "comic releaf" I suppose.
Racine125
(Kalfou wrote:)
>>Cool, but why do you care? You have already had your asson, and you
>are quite pleased, right?<<<
>
>Wi, mwen kontan. M'pa gen pwoblem ak ason mwe.
He said, for the non-Creole readers, that he is happy,
he has no problem with his asson. That, folks, is the
asson I took him to get, met him at the airport and fed
him and provided housing for him and served as his
maman kanzo so he could get - and when Yabofe
didn't want to give it to him, INSISTED that if Yabofe
wouldn't give it to him, I would, because he paid for it.
We see this often enough with overseas initiates - they
want the asson but they don't want the house, the people
who give it to them, the discipline. Of course there are a
few Haitians like that too, I'm sure.
The result of Aboudja's behavior is that now, I don't give
anyone the asson the first time around, unless I see
VERY strong reasons to do so. They have to kouche
sur point first (an intermediate grade), and then come
back and observe at least one kanzo, feed their kolyes,
learn more liturgy, and prove that they are worthy members
of the Roots Without End Society, before they can have
the asson.
On the other hand, I have made asogwe initiates who I
gave the asson the very first time, who turned out to
be SUPER members in every way. One of them is Mr.
Lance Love, Bon Houngan Koulev Toulimen. Here are a few
websites documenting his activities:
Houngan Koulev Toulimen's personal page -
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/toulimen01.html
Fet Gede 2000, Jacmel Spiritual Procession -
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/gede2000.html
Feeding the Kolyes -
http://mamboracine.tripod.com/kolye.html
If Aboudja would behave himself a little more like that,
he would reap some of the same rewards, including a place
of honor in his initiatory house and in the Vodouisant
community of Jacmel, Haiti.
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> Jean-Jaques Dessalines, by the way, was an interesting
> and very ambigous character. He fought valiantly for the
> liberation of Haiti - and he also commited atrocities including
> the massacres of groups of defenseless Frenchwomen
> whom he lured from hiding with promises of safe passage
> out of Haiti, and abominable tortures practiced on those
> Frenchwomen who were pregnant.
>
Well, if you are going to diss Dessalines, you should also
put things in their proper historical context. Dessalines never
had the luxury of going to the Sloan School of Diplomacy at MIT,
he was a slave who learned but atrocities from his white masters,
...."you reap what you sow.." and all that.
> The tendency to schism and division, power plays and power
> struggles, exacerbated the tensions between black and mulatto
> Haitians. Ordered to purge the mulatto troops, Jean-Jacques
> Dessalines slew at least 350. Mulatto historians later claimed
> that 10,000 were massacred.
>
Yeah well, History is always written by liars, assassins, and
victors of wars.
> It's a long and bloody history after that- "Emperor" Faustin
> Soulouque, on and on...
Stop making drive-by statements, and start putting things in proper
perspective. Thanks.
Kafou
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> In the political life of Haiti, actually, there is a certain Dejean
> Belizaire who was active during the military regime, earning
> himself the sobriquet of "Ti-Jean Betiseur", a "betiseur" being
> a person who says a lot of "betise", or cuss words.
Ahem! That is NOT exactly true in this context. A "betiseur"
(in this context), is someone who is just f*cking around,
someone who is NOT accomplishing anything worthy of importance.
Kafou "It is a Haitian thAng...." Lobo ;-)
Kathy Latzoni
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> It might also interest you to know that Aboudja, like
> every other initiate, swore oaths of respect and loyalty,
> and those oaths have some pretty severe spiritual
> Before Aboudja's
> kanzo, we all sat in the badji. The lwa Gran Bwa himself
> came to us, and said, "Mambo Racine is your mother, Houngan
> Yabofe is your father, Mambo Racine is your mother, Houngan
> Yabofe is your father," over and over!
Interesting. I didn't know that initiates had to swear oaths of loyalty
to the people who give them kanzo...
I might need to remain a serviteur, then. I'm not sure if I could be
down with the concept of pledging undying, unconditional loyalty to a
fallible human being, no matter *what* ze does to me or to anyone else
in the future. <:/
Now, ISTR that you've had some issues with the person who gave you your
second asson -- are you still required to be loyal to him, for
example??? [If anyone else wants to educate me on the finer points of
this, feel free to jump in...]
> Imagine how much time this man spends lurking and
> slamming and scamming and slurring!
Nice internal rhyme scheme. :)
I've never met Aboudja. I know that Kevin has only good things to say
about him -- but there are two sides to every story, I guess...
> What a fine
> example of a Houngan - filthy words in English and Creole,
> death threats,
Geez... Are you sure about that? Have any of these "death threats" been
archived to Dejanews, for example; or could somebody repost one,
complete with headers?
[I'm reminded of the Usenet acronym "PPOSTFU"... which does include a
filthy word in English, however...] ;)
Regards,
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> In article <eballard-3620F4...@netnews.upenn.edu>, "E. C.
Ballard"
> <ebal...@sas.upenn.edu> writes:
>
> >Most involved with flame wars on usenet have a fairly minimal command
of
> >English
>
> You know you're RIGHT! I don't know who makes
> more spelling errors, Aboudja or Oshuntoki.
>
> The other day Aboudja was trying to write "caveat
> emptor", you know, let the buyer beware, and instead
> wrote "civet emptor"! LOL! As you probably already
> know, civet is a strong-smelling secretion from glands
> in the hind end of a species of cat!
>
LOL.... Why would anyone expect Haitian posters to have
the same command of English as American posters?
Kafou "My mistakes are strictly to protect against
copy rights infringements." Lobo
Racine125
>Ahem! That is NOT exactly true in this context. A "betiseur"
>(in this context), is someone who is just f*cking around,
>someone who is NOT accomplishing anything worthy of importance.
Yeah, that too! LOL!
Ou ap betize - You are just f*cking around
Ou ap di betiz - You are cursing
I remember when I first heard "Ti-Jean Betiseur" applied to Dejean
Belizaire, it was on the radio and I was in a taxi, and we all
burst out laughing so hard the taxi was rocking back and forth. :-)
Racine125
ebal...@sas.upenn.edu (E. C. Ballard) writes:
>Actually the cat itself is a civet. The scent is called musk and contrary
>to popular misconceptions does not come only from the Musk Ox.
No kidding? Well, maybe I'll put away that bottle of
Amarige! LOL!
Racine125
>Well, if you are going to diss Dessalines, you should also
>put things in their proper historical context. Dessalines never
>had the luxury of going to the Sloan School of Diplomacy at MIT,
>he was a slave who learned but atrocities from his white masters,
>...."you reap what you sow.." and all that.
I don't question it. This is a short but objective narrative, not an
op/ed piece. By the way, I have some first-hand experience of
civil war, and my feeling is that if I am oblige to kill someone in
a war I will kill them, but not torture them first, and certainly
I would never torture defenseless women after promising them
safe passage out of a war zone. There are some things that
are not permissible even in war, that's why they are called "war
crimes", and one of them is abusing non-combatants.
On the other hand, no one can deny that Dessalines contributed
mightily to the struggle for the liberation of Haiti. That is why I said
he is "ambiguous", and that is not a "diss".
>> Ordered to purge the mulatto troops, Jean-Jacques
>> Dessalines slew at least 350. Mulatto historians later claimed
>> that 10,000 were massacred.
>Yeah well, History is always written by liars, assassins, and
>victors of wars.
That is why I noted two figures, one given by historians belonging
to the social class of the VICTIMS.
Racine125
writes:
>Interesting. I didn't know that initiates had to swear oaths of loyalty
>to the people who give them kanzo...
Oh YES! You also have to swear not to reveal what you ate
or slept on or did in the djevo, a bunch of stuff, on pain
of death. If you break the oath, the Houngan or Mambo
doesn't come kill you, but the lwa do.
See my post on "What is Public, What is Private in Haitian
Vodou" for an actual, real life example of what happened
to a man who gave away the secrets of the djevo.
>I might need to remain a serviteur, then. I'm not sure if I could be
>down with the concept of pledging undying, unconditional loyalty to a
>fallible human being, no matter *what* ze does to me or to anyone else
>in the future. <:/
Well, I'll tell you something. I also swore this oath, and then
Yabofe turned around and in a later kanzo had his people
break into my initiates' suitcases and steal their cash. So now,
I don't work with Yabofe anymore, and I am free to say why,
within reason. I am NOT free to say, "Yabofe did not give me
an asson"! That would result in my ostracism from the Vodouisant
community of Jacmel, if not a night-time visit from a bunch
of people with a lot of red clothes on!
Likewise, neither Yabofe nor the late Luc Gedeon could ever say,
"Mambo Racine didn't get an asson from me, she is not a member
of my house". And I can never say, "Aboudja is not my son".
In Vodou it's forever, although you can change houses by repeating
the entire kanzo cycle in a new house. A simple lave tet is not
enough, however.
>> Imagine how much time this man spends lurking and
>> slamming and scamming and slurring!
>
>Nice internal rhyme scheme. :)
::chuckle::
>I've never met Aboudja. I know that Kevin has only good things to say
>about him -- but there are two sides to every story, I guess...
Yeah, and two sides to Kevin's mouth, apparently. He use to
talk about Aboudja like a dog while he was in Haiti, "Aboudja
is an idiot, Aboudja is ungrateful, etc." Well, he was right,
at least about the ungrateful part.
>> What a fine
>> example of a Houngan - filthy words in English and Creole,
>> death threats,
>
>Geez... Are you sure about that? Have any of these "death threats" been
>archived to Dejanews, for example
No, they were made in a private email, which I forwarded to
the police.
sou...@my-deja.com
written by Catholic priests.
Our liberators, our heroes, in her ...... judgement, are atrocious
barbaric elements.
Our politicians are all quite stupid, but she loves Haiti !!!
In article <91bn3t$mvg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
Soutini
http://host.awwm.com/soutini/
www.freeyellow.com/members5/lamitie/index.html
Racine125
>LOL.... Why would anyone expect Haitian posters to have
>the same command of English as American posters?
LOL! You do know Mr. Moellendorf is not Haitian, right?
He's a slim little white guy from Pflugerville, Texas.
And your English is better than his!
>Kafou "My mistakes are strictly to protect against
> copy rights infringements." Lobo
You're too much! :-)
Racine125
What SoTiny wanks:
>Our liberators, our heroes, in her ...... judgement, are atrocious
>barbaric elements.
What I actually wrote:
>> > Jean-Jaques Dessalines, by the way, was an interesting
>> > and very ambigous character.
SoTiny, either you can't read or your not well in your
head, one or the other.
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> I don't question it. This is a short but objective narrative, not an
> op/ed piece. By the way, I have some first-hand experience of
> civil war, and my feeling is that if I am oblige to kill someone in
> a war I will kill them, but not torture them first, and certainly
> I would never torture defenseless women after promising them
> safe passage out of a war zone. There are some things that
> are not permissible even in war, that's why they are called "war
> crimes", and one of them is abusing non-combatants.
Well, I dunno if Dessalines really did all that, I don't recall
studying that passage in my history classes.... But I do remember
Toussaint saving quite a few white lives...
Kafou "Besides, à la guerre comme à la guerre." Lobo
kafo...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> Yeah, and two sides to Kevin's mouth, apparently. He use to
> talk about Aboudja like a dog while he was in Haiti, "Aboudja
> is an idiot, Aboudja is ungrateful, etc." Well, he was right,
> at least about the ungrateful part.
Maybe Kevin did all that, maybe he didn't... Still, what is the
point in revealing to the whole world, things he may have
said in private? An old wise man once said:
"The character of a man is measured by the silence he keeps."
Kafou "At your service, always." Lobo
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
>>>LOL! You do know Mr. Moellendorf is not Haitian, right?
He's a slim little white guy from Pflugerville, Texas.
And your English is better than his!<<<
LOL Kathy, you are such a moron. I started to wonder where you get all
this mess about Pflugerville? Then I remembered that I had given you
that once as a mailing address...my cousin in the country...which is
not so country now. In fact, I imagine the (not so bad) town of
Pflugerville is closer to Austin, where I last lived BTW, that Roxbury
is to Boston. But you wave it like a flag...& you obviously do not have
the hakker resources to find out otherwise....oh well.
....slim little White guy indeed! ROTFLMAO!!!
Houngan Aboudja
Kathy Latzoni
Thank you Kafou, I was thinking the same thing. It gives me the idea
that I would have to think twice before saying anything in confidence
to Racine... what if it ended up all over Usenet afterwards? <:/
I've known Kevin pretty well for a year now, and in my experience, he
is a very loyal and trustworthy person [he's a Taurus, after all!] :)
I've even seen him be loyal to people who, IMHO, didn't deserve it --
a**hole bosses, etc...
So, while I'm aware there are two sides to every story, I can only
imagine that Racine had to do something *seriously* messed up, to make
Kevin break off relations with her -- that's just not like the person I
know...
She does post a few good articles, however. :)
Regards,
Kathy L.
Guava Baby
> > The other day Aboudja was trying to write "caveat
> > emptor", you know, let the buyer beware, and instead
> > wrote "civet emptor"! LOL! As you probably already
> > know, civet is a strong-smelling secretion from glands
> > in the hind end of a species of cat!
>
> LOL.... Why would anyone expect Haitian posters to have
> the same command of English as American posters?
Funny, I didn't realize "caveat emptor" was English! Learn something new
every day.
:P
Leigh
Former Latin geek...
LA KAT47
>From: kafo...@my-deja.com
> A "betiseur" >(in this context), is someone who is just f*cking around,
>someone who is NOT accomplishing anything worthy of importance.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Yes, Martino is fond of saying, "Ah! Se betize! Meaning "how ridiculous" or
"what nonsense!" It was only later that I found out it also could mean a
person who swears.
LA KAT47
>From: kafo...@my-deja.com
>LOL.... Why would anyone expect Haitian posters to have the same command of
English as American posters?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
No one, but if you can't damn the content of a message, you can always damn the
form. I look for substance, and find it where it exists. Where it doesn't,
good spelling and grammar won't help.
K.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Then I remembered that I had given you
>that once as a mailing address...my cousin in the country
Oh what nonsense! LOL! The Pflugerville police
were the ones who went looking for you after your
email death threat to me, and they found you just
fine.
What's the matter with you anyway? Why do you
go around claiming to be an "adopted Haitian", and
claiming that New Orleans is "your country" when
you only just moved there recently?
You don't have to be Haitian or from New Orleans,
it's okay to be from Texas, you can still be a Houngan,
baby. :-)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>>>>> marks! :-) ) writes:
>> Maybe Kevin did all that, maybe he didn't... Still, what is the
>> point in revealing to the whole world, things he may have
>> said in private?
Because KATHY L. said that he told KATHY L. something
in particular.
I report correctly that he told ME something quite
different! You should make your assertions and I
should keep quiet and muzzle the truth? Nah.
What's the matter, is he afraid that Aboudja will
punish him if he hears that Kevin made some
negative comments about him in Haiti? Aboudja
as well made VERY negative comments to me
about everyone in that group - he used to come down
every morning and tattle to me, until I told him that
the group members were all adults, not children,
and that he was not in a supervisory role.
I thank God that the January 2001 Kanzo is full of
pleasant, talented, apparently mentally healthy adults,
and not infantile gossip-mad trolls.
kafo...@my-deja.com
Kathy Latzoni <lat...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <91d8g8$s89$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> kafo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> She does post a few good articles, however. :)
True, but, will someone infuse some wisdom in her? Dang!
Kafou
houngan...@my-deja.com
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
>>>Oh what nonsense! LOL! The Pflugerville police
were the ones who went looking for you after your
email death threat to me, and they found you just
fine.<<<
You are such a moron woman. They laughed at your BS & wanted to know if
you were unbalanced. Because I didnt live in Pflugerville, they FWD'd
your nonsense to Austin PD.....who through it in the trash.
You are ridiculous. What was my death threat? LOL I told you that "if
you got in my face I would slap you into next teusday, & that further
they would have to scrap up what was left of you & send it home in a
little plastic baggie".
That is a death threat? ROTFLMAO!!!
Now go on & lie & say I said something different.
Oh, & BTW: That stands Ratsine....when I see you IF you get up in my
face....you will regret it. It is as simple as that.
>>>What's the matter with you anyway? Why do you
go around claiming to be an "adopted Haitian", and
claiming that New Orleans is "your country" when
you only just moved there recently?....
....You don't have to be Haitian or from New Orleans,
it's okay to be from Texas, you can still be a Houngan,
baby. :-)<<<
Ill leave the rest of this to indicate the mental status of the writer.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Well, I dunno if Dessalines really did all that, I don't recall
>studying that passage in my history classes.... But I do remember
>Toussaint saving quite a few white lives...
I don't know if Dessalines really did all of that either,
and I know Toussaint did save white people. That is
why I used the word "ambiguous".
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>You are such a moron woman.
Nice language.
> Because I didnt live in Pflugerville, they FWD'd
>your nonsense to Austin PD.....who through it in the trash.
T-h-r-e-w. They must have thought it was worth sending to the
Boston PD.
> I told you that "if
>you got in my face I would slap you into next teusday, & that further
>they would have to scrap up what was left of you & send it home in a
>little plastic baggie".
Oh, that's nice.
>Oh, & BTW: That stands Ratsine....when I see you IF you get up in my
>face....you will regret it. It is as simple as that.
Really? Why? What do you have in mind for me?
Kevin Filan
raci...@aol.com (Racine125) wrote:
> In article <91ap7p$sga$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, houngan...@my-deja.com
writes:
>
> >Correct, Ogou Desalin. Very well known, especially in the North of
> >Haiti.
>
> I repeat that this is not an aspect of Ogoun included
> in the orthodox liturgy.
Who determines the "orthodox liturgy" of Vodou? Is it possible that
there might be variants in the "orthodox liturgy" between different
houses. To the best of my understanding, there are certainly
variations between myths in different Lucumi houses, although there are
also quite a few universally accepted things as well. It appears to me
that you are defining Vodou as you were taught it as "orthodox" and any
variant which disagrees with your ideas as "unorthodox" or "incorrect."
> It wouldn't surprise me if this
> *personal lwa* had developed a following in the north
> of Haiti, though, since that is where the Haitian Revolution
> began. It might simply mean "Dessalines' Ogoun", since
> in Creole, as in French, the adjective often comes after
> the noun. So "Dessalines' Ogoun" would be the Ogoun
> served in the manner that Dessalines served his Ogoun.
> That makes a lot more sense to me.
Joan Dayan, in her book *Haiti, History and Gods* goes into some detail
concerning Ogou Desalin. She even includes some pictures of a Houngan
being ridden by Ogou Desalin.
(One passage in this book which was of particular interest involved a
woman who helped gather Dessalines' body after he was killed by the
mob, and who is apparently well-known in Haitian folklore. I don't
have the book handy -- I borrowed it from the Queens County Public
Library and have since returned it -- but I'm betting at least one or
two of the Haitian regulars on here could tell us more)
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520213688/o/qid=976945952/sr=8-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/104-8759597-4307138>
has more information about Dayan's book. Dayan at times attempts to
squeeze the evidence to fit into a feminist/cultural studies context
and makes a few calls which I believe are flat-out wrong (i.e. I don't
think Ezili Freda is a dimly-recalled memory of the behavior of the
White and Creole "mistresses" of pre-revolutionary Saint-Dominique, who
could be alternately loving and cruel and whose tastes for luxury were
notorious throughout the world). On the other hand, she's obviously
done extensive research and is a Haitian-American who has a good deal
of knowledge regarding the culture and the mythology. I recommend it
with some reservations for an interesting take on Haitian history and
spirituality.
> This also would be more likely in the north because many
> "Houngans" in the north do not have the asson, and are
> not kanzo. There are a lot of independant Houngans up
> there - some people consider them less competent, others
> consider them more *dangerous*.
So someone who was raised in Haiti and who has practiced Vodou all
their lives, but who has not made kanzo in a manner which you
consider "orthodox" is not to be trusted as a source for information on
Vodou.
> Jean-Jaques Dessalines, by the way, was an interesting
> and very ambigous character. He fought valiantly for the
> liberation of Haiti - and he also commited atrocities including
> the massacres of groups of defenseless Frenchwomen
> whom he lured from hiding with promises of safe passage
> out of Haiti, and abominable tortures practiced on those
> Frenchwomen who were pregnant.
According to Dayan, when Dessalines was asked why he hated the French,
he was wont to take off his shirt and show the querent his whip-scarred
back. I think the old proverb about reaping what you have sown applies
here. The French were merciless toward the majority Black population,
and when the tables were turned no mercy was forthcoming for them. I
seriously doubt the French slavers showed any particular concern for
the well-being of pregnant Black women: indeed, many of the stories
I've read suggest that women and children were as liable to be tortured
for real or perceived misdeeds as men.
Peace
Kevin Filan
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
writes:
>Who determines the "orthodox liturgy" of Vodou?
Not me, that's for sure! :-)
There are regional variants of course, and even "denominations".
In the Artibonte region, the Makaya denomination is much more
prevalent. The leaders of these congregations are almost always
men, called "Bokor". (The term "bokor" can also refer to a
specialist in malevolent magic, usually not initiated and not the
leader of a congregation.) Makaya Bokors are not kanzo and
do not have the asson.
In Sucrie near Gonaives there is a surviving Kongo congregation,
but the Kongo rite in other parts of Haiti is subsumed into
other divisions of liturgy.
From Port-au-Prince southward and eastward, the orthodox Vodou
is most prevalent. In this denomination clergy can be male
or female, and are called Houngans, or Mambos, as you know.
Houngans and Mambos are kanzo, and if we have the rank
of asogwe we have the asson.
In orthodox Vodou, commonly referred to as "Vodou", there
are three grades of initiation, there is a liturgical order, an
opening prayer called the Priye Ginen, and other elements in
common. If it were not so, then for example people who are
kanzo in one house could not be admitted to the djevo of
another house! LOL! The passwords, the asson gestures and
so on must be recognizable to all members of the Vodou,
the prayers and liturgy and ceremonial order must be
the same or nearly the same in all houses, otherwise how
would we work together? Each little house would become
it's own denomination.
And THAT, more or less, is the situation from l'Estere north
to Port-de-Paix and Cap Haitien. There are disadvantages to
this, but advantages also, as a little reflection will indicate.
The Vodou clergy in any case is a decentralized one, but
in the north of Haiti the independant Hougans and Mambos
(this term is used even though they are very often not kanzo)
have far fewer commonalities of service.
I remember one man who came down from Cap Haitian, and
was trying to pass himself off as a Houngan asogwe. He
picked up an asson and invited me to do the ceremonial
gestures with him - hoping, I suppose, to learn as he went
along, which is possible. I "got ahead" of him on the first
gesture that he missed, ran through the whole "vocabulary",
and ended up really embarrassing this guy, although I
didn't mean to - I didn't know he wasn't kanzo! The next day
I went to his peristyle to sort of apologize to him, I didn't mean
to make him feel bad. As I approached, I overheard one of
his wives scolding him, telling him it was high time for his
own kanzo! LOL!
Now, this man is a really good Houngan, he has strong lwa
in his head that can do all sorts of things - and these lwa for
the most part are not included in the orthodox *Vodou* ceremonial
order, they are personal lwa or lwa his father served or whatever.
The ceremonial order of Vodou, that is the order in which the lwa
are called in a Vodou service, is given in Vodou Lesson 2 on The
VODOU Page. It's not secret information, anyone who is willing
to sit through enough services in enough peristyles will be able
to elucidate this order, and it will be apparent that it is the same
in orthodox Vodou peristyles.
Houngans or Mambos may also insert other lwa at appropriate
points, usually during the Petro. Because, for instance, the lwa
Mazila served in one house near Jacmel is considered allied
with the Kongo lwa, this lwa is sung immediately after the Kongo
lwa, and the Kongo lwa are served during the Petro portion of
the liturgy. ( That is why there is apparently some confusion
on this board between the ethnic origin of a particular lwa and
the liturgical portion of the service in which that lwa is served.)
>So someone who was raised in Haiti and who has practiced Vodou all
>their lives, but who has not made kanzo in a manner which you
>consider "orthodox" is not to be trusted as a source for information on
>Vodou.
With the definition of "Vodou" as that denomination of Haitian
traditional religion which includes a clergy which is kanzo,
which has three degress of initiation (hounsi kanzo, sur point,
and asogwe)... well, NO! How could a person who is not kanzo
be a trusted source of information on the denomination of
Haitian traditional religion which requires the kanzo before the
initiate is trusted with certain information?
Again, that does not mean that such individuals know nothing!
They are serving in a different branch of the tradition, that's all.
> The French were merciless toward the majority Black population,
>and when the tables were turned no mercy was forthcoming for them. I
>seriously doubt the French slavers showed any particular concern for
>the well-being of pregnant Black women: indeed, many of the stories
>I've read suggest that women and children were as liable to be tortured
>for real or perceived misdeeds as men.
No one disputes this! And this vicious cycle of tit for tat, an
eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, continues in the
political life of Haiti today.
kafo...@my-deja.com
Kevin Filan <raksh...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> (One passage in this book which was of particular interest involved a
> woman who helped gather Dessalines' body after he was killed by the
> mob, and who is apparently well-known in Haitian folklore. I don't
> have the book handy -- I borrowed it from the Queens County Public
> Library and have since returned it -- but I'm betting at least one or
> two of the Haitian regulars on here could tell us more)
>
It has a been while since my last course in Haitian history, but
I believe her name was Defilee La Folle (Defilee The Crazy One).
According to our folklore, she was possessed and in trance while
gathering the remains of Dessalines....
Fast forward to the 20th Century: I remember growing up, there was
this old woman on our block... Grann Nana was as old as dirt,
she looked like she was 500 years old, she of course could not
talk, walk or do anything by herself... Her people would take her
to "chauffe soley" in the morning, and that was her whole life...
One morning, she just got up and started singing"
"Jou a rive, map tounin nan Guinin...
Lwa yo ap tan mwen, m pa ka rete anko..."
... and she was up and walking and singing...and singing....
Grann Nana just evaporated into thin air! To this day, this has
remained the most mysterious event in my life... Who the hell
was she? A Lwa? A lougarou? Who knows!
I have also seen other weird sh*t in Haiti, but this one takes the
cake!
Other weird stuff: It was sometime in the 60s, a hurricane named
'Flora' battered Haiti... It rained for days, and nobody ventured
outside, except 'Paul'.... Paul used to hang around our house, a
gopher as it were.... As electricity was out for days, and our
supply of candles was dwindling, we needed more candles.
This required a trip to the center of Petion-Ville, (3 miles away),
nobody was brave enough to dare Mother Nature, except Paul...
Paul asked for a small chair and two dollars...
Paul was back 30 minutes later with candles to last a life time!
Oh, he was as dry as he had just come out of a dryer!
I am now much older, I am now a man who eats and drinks science,
I try to put this stuff in the realms of science... It just does NOT
compute!
Oh, I have got more.... Hell, I scare my kids when I tell them
this stuff, good! :-) Never fool a Haitian Dad, he knows everything....
Kafou "Only in Haiti!" Lobo
kafo...@my-deja.com
writes:
>
> >Well, I dunno if Dessalines really did all that, I don't recall
> >studying that passage in my history classes.... But I do remember
> >Toussaint saving quite a few white lives...
>
> I don't know if Dessalines really did all of that either,
> and I know Toussaint did save white people. That is
> why I used the word "ambiguous".
>
Right.... ambiguous is such a.... "I don't care" state...
Dessalines is to Haitians, what Washington is to America, Churchill
to Britain, Mao to China. My grand-father used to say:
"When the truth collides with the legend, go with the legend!"
Kafou "That guy has ALWAYS been right, so far." Lobo
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
NO! Ambiguous things are interesting! They are not "all good" or "all bad",
they present moral dilemmas sometimes, just like Dessalines. :-)
kafo...@my-deja.com
>
> NO! Ambiguous things are interesting! They are not "all good" or "all
bad",
> they present moral dilemmas sometimes, just like Dessalines. :-)
>
Well, exactly.... ! Haitians have icons. While they, (the Haitians)
can p*ss on them, they resent anyone else doing the same. You have
lived in Haiti for years, I expect *YOU* to identify with this
stuff.
Aristide: A true asshole. But, he is *OUR* asshole.
Si ou mele, wa wont... !
Kafou "Haiti *IS* unique!" Lobo
Kevin Filan
raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout) wrote:
Racine: thanks for the informative and even-tempered response. Maybe
with a little effort we can keep all our discussions (including our
disagreements) on this level.
> There are regional variants of course, and even "denominations".
> In the Artibonte region, the Makaya denomination is much more
> prevalent. The leaders of these congregations are almost always
> men, called "Bokor". (The term "bokor" can also refer to a
> specialist in malevolent magic, usually not initiated and not the
> leader of a congregation.) Makaya Bokors are not kanzo and
> do not have the asson.
So how does one become a Makaya Bokor? I suspect there's more to
becoming a "Bokor" than hanging out a shingle and saying "I'm a Bokor."
While those rites apparently don't involve going into the djevo and
while Makaya Bokors apparently don't have an asson, I'm going to hazard
a guess that there ARE initiatory rites involved ... or, at the very
least, one is expected to apprentice with a Bokor whose competence and
skill is known in the community.
What are some differences between Makaya and orthodox rites? You said
that Makaya Bokors don't use the asson. Do they use rattles or gourds?
Is drumming and possession involved? Would a Makaya Bokor recognize some
or many of the same lwa an orthodox Houngan or Mambo would? (i.e. would
you hear songs to Legba, Damballah, etc.?)
Speaking of linguistics: is there a connection between the word "Makaya"
in Simbi Makaya's name and the "Makaya" rite? I also note that the word
"bokor" can be used to mean (a) a Makaya houngan or (b) a malevolent
sorcerer. Is there a belief among orthodox Houngans that Makaya
practitioners are more wont to practice Black magic? (This kind of
prejudice isn't unheard of among African Diaspora religions: witness the
Palo/Santeria situation).
Sorry about all the questions, but I figure there are folks on here who
know more than I do and this is a good place to learn.
> In Sucrie near Gonaives there is a surviving Kongo congregation,
> but the Kongo rite in other parts of Haiti is subsumed into
> other divisions of liturgy.
I hope to travel to Gonaives at some point after learning a bit more
about Palo; if I'm very lucky, I may even go in the company of some
skilled and initiated Paleros. It will be interesting to see how the
Kongo rites in Haiti compare to the Kongo rites as they were preserved
in Cuba. I remember David, a Tata, commenting that he recognized the
Kongo rhythms the drummers played during Bat Guerre during our August
1999 trip there.
> In orthodox Vodou, commonly referred to as "Vodou", there
> are three grades of initiation, there is a liturgical order, an
> opening prayer called the Priye Ginen, and other elements in
> common. If it were not so, then for example people who are
> kanzo in one house could not be admitted to the djevo of
> another house! LOL! The passwords, the asson gestures and
> so on must be recognizable to all members of the Vodou,
> the prayers and liturgy and ceremonial order must be
> the same or nearly the same in all houses, otherwise how
> would we work together? Each little house would become
> it's own denomination.
I'd hazard another guess that in many cases you can tell an initiate "by
their fruits." You talk later in your post about a Houngan with
"powerful lwa" who never made kanzo according to the orthodox tradition.
This Houngan might well be recognized by an orthodox congregation as a
person worth listening to, while a Houngan who knew the signs and
passwords but who obviously faked lwa, etc. might well be kicked to the
curb.
> And THAT, more or less, is the situation from l'Estere north
> to Port-de-Paix and Cap Haitien. There are disadvantages to
> this, but advantages also, as a little reflection will indicate.
> The Vodou clergy in any case is a decentralized one, but
> in the north of Haiti the independant Hougans and Mambos
> (this term is used even though they are very often not kanzo)
> have far fewer commonalities of service.
Or, possibly, you don't know those commonalities of service. I'm not
being sarcastic here. A Roman Catholic priest might well believe that a
Southern Baptist minister was not "properly initiated." That would not
mean that this minister had not been required to go through extensive
training and tests of his skills before being recognized as a minister.
Similarly, I wonder if the Makaya rites involve initiatory rituals or
traditions which are as intricate and demanding as orthodox Vodou, only
not so well-known.
> I remember one man who came down from Cap Haitian, and
> was trying to pass himself off as a Houngan asogwe. He
> picked up an asson and invited me to do the ceremonial
> gestures with him - hoping, I suppose, to learn as he went
> along, which is possible. I "got ahead" of him on the first
> gesture that he missed, ran through the whole "vocabulary",
> and ended up really embarrassing this guy, although I
> didn't mean to - I didn't know he wasn't kanzo! The next day
> I went to his peristyle to sort of apologize to him, I didn't mean
> to make him feel bad. As I approached, I overheard one of
> his wives scolding him, telling him it was high time for his
> own kanzo! LOL!
How was he treated by the other Vodouisants there? Did they respect his
ability, or did they see him as a usurper pretending to skills that he
did not have? I see that you also say...
> Now, this man is a really good Houngan, he has strong lwa
> in his head that can do all sorts of things - and these lwa for
> the most part are not included in the orthodox *Vodou* ceremonial
> order, they are personal lwa or lwa his father served or whatever.
... so I'm wondering how much of a hindrance his lack of an "orthodox"
initiation is in his day-to-day career as a professional Vodou priest.
Would he be treated as a Houngan Asogwe because of his obvious ability?
> Houngans or Mambos may also insert other lwa at appropriate
> points, usually during the Petro. Because, for instance, the lwa
> Mazila served in one house near Jacmel is considered allied
> with the Kongo lwa, this lwa is sung immediately after the Kongo
> lwa, and the Kongo lwa are served during the Petro portion of
> the liturgy. ( That is why there is apparently some confusion
> on this board between the ethnic origin of a particular lwa and
> the liturgical portion of the service in which that lwa is served.)
Actually, I believe Aboudja pointed out that Ogou may "walk Rada" or
"walk Petwo"... in other words: be included at that point in the
service... but that he nonetheless originates in Nagoland and is part
of the Nago family of lwa. (If I'm wrong, I'm sure Aboudja will feel
free to clarify here). So I think we can all distinguish between where
a lwa "walks" or is served and where that lwa originates.
> With the definition of "Vodou" as that denomination of Haitian
> traditional religion which includes a clergy which is kanzo,
> which has three degress of initiation (hounsi kanzo, sur point,
> and asogwe)... well, NO! How could a person who is not kanzo
> be a trusted source of information on the denomination of
> Haitian traditional religion which requires the kanzo before the
> initiate is trusted with certain information?
>
> Again, that does not mean that such individuals know nothing!
> They are serving in a different branch of the tradition, that's all.
Thanks, that helps a great deal. I'm curious about that tradition, and
would be interested in learning more about it.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>Well, exactly.... ! Haitians have icons. While they, (the Haitians)
>can p*ss on them, they resent anyone else doing the same. You have
>lived in Haiti for years, I expect *YOU* to identify with this
>stuff.
>
>Aristide: A true asshole. But, he is *OUR* asshole.
LOL! You are horrible these days. :-)
It matters not who resents what. People are free to
express opinions on any topic - a case in point is the
Haitian community in Miami, which is VERY active in
the protests against the election of George Bush. He
is an American president, however I welcome the voices
of Haitians and Haitian-Americans regarding the election
proceedures that led to Bush's win in Florida.
Aristide, now... he certainly qualifies as "ambiguous", don't
you think?
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
writes:
>So how does one become a Makaya Bokor?
It varies from house to house and person to person. Some
people just have a lwa, inherited, bought, or otherwise, and
they go to work! Some people undergo a very abbreviated
ceremony which involves a short period of seclusion, but there
is no brule zin or anything like that.
>What are some differences between Makaya and orthodox rites? You said
>that Makaya Bokors don't use the asson. Do they use rattles or gourds?
Yes. They use the same kind of tcha-tcha (maraca) that I and other
Mambos and Houngans use during Petro service.
>Is drumming and possession involved?
Yes.
> Would a Makaya Bokor recognize some
>or many of the same lwa an orthodox Houngan or Mambo would? (i.e. would
>you hear songs to Legba, Damballah, etc.?)
Well, yes and no. They know of these lwa, but the emphasis in
Makaya service is on lwa that would be served in the Petro
portion of a Vodou ceremony, so you would have Legba Petro,
and maybe Dambala La Flambo, and so on, plus the important
Makaya lwa like Simbi Makaya, Cemetiere, and so forth. In some
parts of Haiti, especially the Artibonite, it is considered very
impolite to ask for Kongo rhythms and songs at a Makaya dance.
>Speaking of linguistics: is there a connection between the word "Makaya"
>in Simbi Makaya's name and the "Makaya" rite?
See above.
I also note that the word
>"bokor" can be used to mean (a) a Makaya houngan or (b) a malevolent
>sorcerer. Is there a belief among orthodox Houngans that Makaya
>practitioners are more wont to practice Black magic?
There is NO SUCH THING as "black magic", all magic is
magic. Aggressive magic, yes, is sometimes considered
to be the specialty of Makaya Bokors, but Houngans and
Mambos do it too.
>I hope to travel to Gonaives at some point after learning a bit more
>about Palo; if I'm very lucky, I may even go in the company of some
>skilled and initiated Paleros. It will be interesting to see how the
>Kongo rites in Haiti compare to the Kongo rites as they were preserved
>in Cuba. I remember David, a Tata, commenting that he recognized the
>Kongo rhythms the drummers played during Bat Guerre during our August
>1999 trip there.
That's right - he even wrote an article about it in AYIZAN
International Vodou Newsletter. The really interesting comparison
is between the Kongo rite in Sucrie and the Kongo part of
the Petro part of the Vodou ceremony.
>I'd hazard another guess that in many cases you can tell an initiate "by
>their fruits."
No. Once a person makes their grade, they have it
for life, no matter what kind of stinker they turn into
later on.
> You talk later in your post about a Houngan with
>"powerful lwa" who never made kanzo according to the orthodox tradition.
> This Houngan might well be recognized by an orthodox congregation as a
>person worth listening to
No. Houngans and Mambos asogwe are not apt to take
counsel from some guy with a point! LOL! What he might
get is a clientele interested in magical services.
>Or, possibly, you don't know those commonalities of service. I'm not
>being sarcastic here.
Kevin, I have close to fifteen years of experience in Haiti.
I have had the asson for ten of those years. I have participated
in Vodou, Makaya, and Sanpwel services from Jacmel to
Cap Haitien. If you don't want the benefit of my expertise,
fine, believe what you will.
>> I remember one man who came down from Cap Haitian, and
>> was trying to pass himself off as a Houngan asogwe.
>
>How was he treated by the other Vodouisants there? Did they respect his
>ability, or did they see him as a usurper pretending to skills that he
>did not have?
He was laughed out of the peristyle! But again, if he
had stuck to his domain, he would have been acknowledged
for what he was.
>... so I'm wondering how much of a hindrance his lack of an "orthodox"
>initiation is in his day-to-day career as a professional Vodou priest.
>Would he be treated as a Houngan Asogwe because of his obvious ability?
NO! NEVER! He is not even kanzo, for cryin' out loud. :-)
kafo...@my-deja.com
> you think?
Yes, specially when he is running low on medication... ;-)
Kafou "I am mean like that...." Lobo