What is a Djab?
Oloya Oyal'eti
probably a bill collector! He he he (That is a nasal laugh -It's Friday
night!)
kafou
> It sounds like a weird question, and I'm really not trying to play a
> joke but I've been having weird dreams about a a guy dressed in a clown
> suit, walking on stilts, and a voice saying "It's a djab". Oh yeah, and
> it tries to kill me. Maybe I've been watching too much television, or
> eating too much before I go to bed at night. But, can anyone tell me
> what a Djab is? from a preliminary online search, I know it means devil.
> Any info would be greatly appreciated. Ben
>
Troll!
Kafou "...and he is posting from a .edu domain". Lobo
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
kafou
<dar...@capital.net> wrote:
<snip>:
> It is pronounced like job. If you don't have one-the guy in the
> suit was probably a bill collector! He he he
> (That is a nasal laugh -It's Friday night!)
Now, weren't we just talking about internet access and lunatics?
Kafou "I am afraid of my damned self...." Lobo
XXXX652245
<<
It sounds like a weird question, and I'm really not trying to play a
joke but I've been having weird dreams about a a guy dressed in a clown
suit, walking on stilts, and a voice saying "It's a djab". Oh yeah, and
it tries to kill me. Maybe I've been watching too much television, or
eating too much before I go to bed at night. But, can anyone tell me
what a Djab is? from a preliminary online search, I know it means devil.
Any info would be greatly appreciated. Ben
>>
I had those dreams too!!! It was horrible! I affraid to go to sleep at night
because the dreams. During the day because of my lack of sleep, I looked like
a walking dead. Finally, I went to see a priest and he cured me of those cursed
dreams. He told me to stay away from the internet for seven years, seven
months, seven days and seven hours. That was ten years ago and I am cured now.
Do the same and I bet it will work for you!
XXXX
Racine125
being silly about something that has real existence.
Oh... BEN!
A 'djab' is a spiritual entity, and NOT what is called a 'devil' in
English. Some djabs are nasty and mean, some are merely
protective of their people. All of them can be put to use.
In the Artibonite region of Haiti, when the rara goes out and there are
'djabs' in the street galore, some of them actually do go on stilts,
whic are called 'jambes de bois' (sorry if my French spelling is
incorrect), 'jam de bwa' in Creole. Men possessed by djabs dance on
these things as if... well, as if POSSESSED! LOL! They leap, they
spin, they twirl at 45 degree angles, they gallop, they do things which
make you think that they surely must fall - but they never do. They
wear ridiculous clothes too, either dressed clownishly with wigs and
so forth, or they dress as women, totally let go, disheveled women.
I think you may have a djab who would like to work with you. That's
perfectly normal, especially if you come from a Haitian family or have
yourself been in Haiti. It WON'T kill you, at least as long as you don't
promise it something and then fail to give it. There are things you
can do to make yourself proof against it, so it can NEVER hurt you.
YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU, to make money or to do
other things.
Want to know more? See The VODOU Page, Vodou Lesson 3, the
section about "Lwa Who Are Called 'Djab' ". Email me, and we can
talk.
Peace and love,
Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Guava Baby
>
> NO, no, no, why are you leading this person astray, XXXX? You're
> being silly about something that has real existence.
>
> Oh... BEN!
>
> A 'djab' is a spiritual entity, and NOT what is called a 'devil' in
> English. Some djabs are nasty and mean, some are merely
> protective of their people. All of them can be put to use.
>
> In the Artibonite region of Haiti, when the rara goes out and there are
> 'djabs' in the street galore, some of them actually do go on stilts,
> whic are called 'jambes de bois' (sorry if my French spelling is
> incorrect), 'jam de bwa' in Creole. Men possessed by djabs dance on
> these things as if... well, as if POSSESSED! LOL! They leap, they
> spin, they twirl at 45 degree angles, they gallop, they do things which
> make you think that they surely must fall - but they never do. They
> wear ridiculous clothes too, either dressed clownishly with wigs and
> so forth, or they dress as women, totally let go, disheveled women.
Please forgive my ignorance, but as I've mentioned before I'm here to
learn so...
This sounds a lot like moko jumbies I've seen in the Virgin Islands
(well, they're more a tourist thing there than a spiritual event, but
the stilts, clothes, and name are similar) and I was wondering whether
there was an African tradition the jam de bwa or jumbies were derived
from or whether the other Caribbean islands copped the jumbie thing from
Haiti.
Any other info on jam de bwa or jumbies would also be of interest, as
the only material I've seen on them so far has been written by either
Americans, Europeans, or a tourist board and I always wonder whether
these writers really "get it." (I'm not saying they don't; I'm just
saying I keep a little skepticism in the back of my mind.)
Leigh
Mysteries
the stilts, clothes, and name are similar) and I was wondering whether
there was an African tradition the jam de bwa or jumbies were derived
from or whether the other Caribbean islands copped the jumbie thing from
Haiti. >>
Stilt dancing has a long tradition in Africa.
Caribbean culture often produces new variations on the old African matrix plus
there is a lot of cultural intermixing and one should not leave out the
Southern United States as well. There were stilt dancers in New Orleans, for
example as well as spirits called simbis in Georgia and the Carolina coastal
areas.
Racine125
I am really sorry if you think I am offended! Of course I'm
not. Maybe you don't mean me?
I've head this term "moko djumbi" from Trinidadians, and of course
a 'djumbi' is the spirit of a dead person, like a 'duppy' in Jamaica
or a 'zombi' in Haiti. But I don't know anything else about "moko
djumbi" except that Trinidadians sometimes use this term to insult
people they consider tall, dark, and ugly.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
kafou
> I'm really not a troll, although I'm new to your newsgroup. I'm just
> asking for information. I'm not trying to put anyone down, nor am I
> attempting to receive some sort of masocistic attention thing. I do
> respect other cultures, and that's why I'm asking for information here.
> I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. Ben
Cool, sorry I jumped the gun....
Kafou
XXXX652245
being silly about something that has real existence.
>>
Who me? I'm innocent here! The devil made me do it!
XXXX
safia
XXXX652245 wrote:
Se Djab-la ki fè ou fè sa, right?
LA KAT47
>From: bol...@uic.edu
>I'm really not a troll, although I'm new to your newsgroup. I'm just
>asking for information. I'm not trying to put anyone down, nor am I
>attempting to receive some sort of masocistic attention thing. I do
>respect other cultures, and that's why I'm asking for information here.
>I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. Ben
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I don't think you are either bolson.....hang in there with us. We only bite
and growl at first, then it gets better. Racine is the Mambo in residence at
SCH, and she gave you the info you need to understand your dream.....or at
least resource to it. Others have varying degrees of respect for Vodou as you
can see. No harm, no foul. ;))
LA KAT
Marlene103
>Date: Sat, 11 September 1999 10:51 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19990911105124...@ng-cf1.aol.com>
> think you may have a djab who would like to work with you. That's
>perfectly normal, especially if you come from a Haitian family or have
>yourself been in Haiti. It WON'T kill you, at least as long as you don't
>promise it something and then fail to give it. There are things you
>can do to make yourself proof against it, so it can NEVER hurt you.
>YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU, to make money or to do
>other things.
My goodness, and I thought discipline, courage, realistic efforts, faith and
charity were the ways to live successfully. No wonder most people in Haiti
believe they don't need a good education, realistic expectations for bringing
themselves and their fellow countrymen to a decent standard of living. Just
sell someone else's child or make deals in the dark and all their problems will
be solved. To me that's encouraging a way of life that's taking them to
nowhere but to placing their hopes, energy and useful efforts into complete
darkness. I have nothing against practitioners, but please in addition to the
spiritual side of this the real effort has to come from the individual in a
realistic fashion, and not to rely on supernatural forces without the concrete
and realistic efforts to make things happen.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>My goodness, and I thought discipline, courage, realistic efforts,
> faith and charity were the ways to live successfully.
Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting strength.
>No wonder most people in Haiti believe they don't need a good
>education, realistic expectations for bringing themselves and their
>fellow countrymen to a decent standard of living.
That's the opinion you have of "most people in Haiti"? Boy, do you
have a lot to learn. Most people in Haiti are not lazy. It is not a
question of "bringing them up", it is a question of making the ruling
class (and associated USA business and political people) STOP
PUSHING THEM DOWN.
> Just sell someone else's child or make deals in the dark and all
>their problems will be solved.
Who said that? WE do NOT eat other people's children at
the house where I serve. We don't harm ANY children, or anyone
else for that matter. Maybe that's what they do where you serve, I
don't know.
> To me that's encouraging a way of life that's taking them to
>nowhere but to placing their hopes, energy and useful
>efforts into complete darkness.
Vodou is NOT "complete darkness", Vodou takes us to Guinea, the
source of all love and all peace. You know so very little about us, I
would think you wouldn't talk. (Silly me! Why would I imagine that
people wouldn't talk on subjects about which they know nothing!
LOL!)
>> I have nothing against practitioners
Sure doesn't sound that way.
> but please in addition to the spiritual side of this the
>real effort has to come from the individual in a realistic fashion,
>and not to rely on supernatural forces without the concrete
>and realistic efforts to make things happen.
So what do you think we do? Just tie up a "point" for the
person and then tell them, "Go sit on your ass and do nothing
all day, and you will make lots of money" ? Puh-LEASE.
If anyone in Haiti is preaching resignation it is the Protestant
evangelicals, not us, as we all well know.
Learn a little bit more before you mischaracterize our religion,
marlene, please. I could, for example, go on about the
"vampirism and cannibalism" involved in Roman Catholicism -
you DO believe, don't you, that the bread and wine are the Body
and Blood of Christ. Right? Does that make you a vampire?
A cannibal? Should we all fear you?
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
kafou
wrote:
> marlene wrote:
>
> >My goodness, and I thought discipline, courage, realistic efforts,
> > faith and charity were the ways to live successfully.
>
> Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
> effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
> ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting
> strength.
<snippity snip snip>:
You know, I always find it fascinating that except for Soutini,
no other Haitian SCHer has a clue about Vodoo. Would I be
considered brilliant, if I proclaim that our education leaves
a lot to be desired?
Kafou "Just curious." Lobo
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
AOL's server doesn't give me all the posts, I didn't get one until
today.
Oyal'eti, Bon Mambo Konnen Viv, is one of Yabofai's and my
new children. She took the asson just this August. She
serves Baron, as you may have guessed from her post.
This woman, SCH, has OOODLES of force. I walked behind
her one night during a ceremony, and as we tramped over the
fields, magical energy was just STREAMING off her, I could
just about gather it up and put it in a bottle!
Annette
Mambo Racine Sans Bout wrote:
> I could, for example, go on about the
> "vampirism and cannibalism" involved in Roman Catholicism -
> you DO believe, don't you, that the bread and wine are the Body
> and Blood of Christ. Right?
Please!! ...That statement was not necessary...
Mysteries
> "vampirism and cannibalism" involved in Roman Catholicism -
> you DO believe, don't you, that the bread and wine are the Body
> and Blood of Christ. Right?
Please!! ...That statement was not necessary...
>>
Yes it was. It was about relative stereotypes on other people's religions. Do
you need to be reminded of the countless indiginous people throughout history
terrified by the concept of sacrament?
R.
Annette
Mysteries wrote:
Hi!....Congratulations! I see you are quite knowledged on the subject! When reading
"Racine's" statement *I* don't like "the Tone" of it....(You must know what "the
Tone" means...?!...It is "a feeling"....)....Épi, that's it..
Mysteries
en reading
"Racine's" statement *I* don't like "the Tone" of it....(You must know wh=
at "the
Tone" means...?!...It is "a feeling"....)....=C9pi, that's it.. >>
Why thank you , Annette! I suppose I am. Her tone was indeed ironic. Not
such a surprise from Racine. Call it tough love. And yes thank you for your
concern I do know what 'the Tone' means but I am less familiar with "=C9pi,
that's it". Ya got me there.....
R.
Annette
Mysteries wrote:
Hi!....I will try another way to write, that is without the accent on the E...Epi
that's it!...It means: "And that is the end of it!"...I first read that
expression on Konpa OnLine when posting on that site, two years ago that is. A
Haitian who had been to the Carnival in Haiti was defending his favorite Konpa
Band who was T-Vice. Anyway, he posted his best grammar in Creole and finished
his statement with that quotation: Epi that's it!...LOL!...I presume meaning:
"Take it or not!"...(I found his "final point" very cute indeed!) .. :)
Marlene103
>Date: Tue, 14 September 1999 10:04 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19990914100422...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
>Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
>effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
>ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting strength.
Im sorry that you read my comment as a snotty remark, but I can tell you Im not
claiming that I am more knowledgeable on the subject than you are but as a
native born who grew up on both sides of the aisle I can tell you I know pretty
much. What I am pointing out here is not an attack on the religion itself but
on the mentality of most of the people who are affected by the religion. For
the well educated, open minded and well versed on the religions of the world,
voodoo is just another religion that should be accepted and respected as any
other religion: however, for the uneducated people of Haiti, the very poor who
are most likely to rely on the local priest and priestess for some help from
their desperate situation what you are saying here and the tone you use is very
misleading. To me, and perhaps others here you can explain yourself clearly
and be understood, but for those people down there they believe it literally.
Just like the missionaries who said "bon Die bon, priye pitit," Many people
believe the heavens are really for the poor and so they are enduring their
poverty for the reward of everlasting life. There are two forces that are vying
for the people's mind down there: the voodoo and christianity and the poor are
being pulled in opposite direction. You'll be surprised to hear even in this
country Haitians still believe they can do harm to one another as I have
recently heard a Haitian woman who lives in a project saying to another "oh si
yo emmerde'm mwen pral van'n yo wi pou'm guin lajan." So, you see when they say
Haitians must be reeducated for some people they see only the ABCs but again
the education includes more than that.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: raci...@aol.com (Racine125)
> >Date: Sat, 11 September 1999 10:51 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <19990911105124...@ng-cf1.aol.com>
>
> > think you may have a djab who would like to work with you. That's
> >perfectly normal, especially if you come from a Haitian family or have
> >yourself been in Haiti. It WON'T kill you, at least as long as you don't
> >promise it something and then fail to give it. There are things you
> >can do to make yourself proof against it, so it can NEVER hurt you.
> >YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU, to make money or to do
> >other things.
>
> My goodness, and I thought discipline, courage, realistic efforts, faith and
> charity were the ways to live successfully.
If you do not understand something, ask for clarification before passing judgment.
> No wonder most people in Haiti
> believe they don't need a good education, realistic expectations for bringing
> themselves and their fellow countrymen to a decent standard of living.
I see you still refuse to face the truth, and you still insist on blaming the
victim. Have you forgotten that our successful struggle for independence began
at a Voodoo ceremony. Voodoo, our strong spiritual beliefs is the primary
factor responsible for the survival of Africans and their descendants in the
Americas. You don't have to believe, but you OWE respect.
> Just
> sell someone else's child or make deals in the dark and all their problems will
> be solved.
That's just anti-Voudou propaganda.
> To me that's encouraging a way of life that's taking them to
> nowhere but to placing their hopes, energy and useful efforts into complete
> darkness.
Darkness is where you would have remained if Voodoo had not maintained your
ancestors to provide a path for you to come on this plane for a human experience
... without Voodoo, the race would have disappeared long before your birth.
> I have nothing against practitioners, but please in addition to the
> spiritual side of this the real effort has to come from the individual in a
> realistic fashion, and not to rely on supernatural forces without the concrete
> and realistic efforts to make things happen.
I cannot believe this, you think you can preach to a Mambo about realistic efforts.
Have you ever considered how much effort and self discipline one must exert to
reach the level of spiritual leader ... supernatural forces do not tolerate the
lazy.
safia
kafou wrote:
> On 14 Sep 1999 14:04:22 GMT raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout)
> wrote:
> > marlene wrote:
> >
> > >My goodness, and I thought discipline, courage, realistic efforts,
> > > faith and charity were the ways to live successfully.
> >
> > Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
> > effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
> > ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting
> > strength.
>
> <snippity snip snip>:
>
> You know, I always find it fascinating that except for Soutini,
> no other Haitian SCHer has a clue about Vodoo. Would I be
> considered brilliant, if I proclaim that our education leaves
> a lot to be desired?
>
If you mean academic education ... I do not think schools should be
responsible for our spiritual development because spiritual matters are
personal between the individual and the spirits. When people are ready
to serve, the spirits simply directs them to path where they are needed
be it Voodoo, Christianity, Judaism, or whatever spiritual path.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout)
> >Date: Tue, 14 September 1999 10:04 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <19990914100422...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
>
> >Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
> >effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
> >ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting strength.
>
> Im sorry that you read my comment as a snotty remark, but I can tell you Im not
> claiming that I am more knowledgeable on the subject than you are but as a
> native born who grew up on both sides of the aisle I can tell you I know pretty
> much. What I am pointing out here is not an attack on the religion itself but
> on the mentality of most of the people who are affected by the religion.
How is this statement different from your previous post?
> For
> the well educated, open minded and well versed on the religions of the world,
> voodoo is just another religion that should be accepted and respected as any
> other religion: however, for the uneducated people of Haiti, the very poor who
> are most likely to rely on the local priest and priestess for some help from
> their desperate situation what you are saying here and the tone you use is very
> misleading.
If you are trying to say that relying on spiritual forces is misleading, please
remember the mantra "in God we trust" ... and do not underestimate the role of
spiritual leaders in all aspects of American society. I mention Americans here
because they are the #1 superpower.
> To me, and perhaps others here you can explain yourself clearly
> and be understood, but for those people down there they believe it literally.
Academic education has nothing to to with intelligence and common sense. "those
people down there" may not have college degrees, but that does not mean they lack
common sense.
>
> Just like the missionaries who said "bon Die bon, priye pitit," Many people
> believe the heavens are really for the poor and so they are enduring their
> poverty for the reward of everlasting life.
you think those who passively "endure" have misunderstood the missionaries's
message? ... on the contrary, they are the missionaries' success stories.
> There are two forces that are vying
> for the people's mind down there: the voodoo and christianity and the poor are
> being pulled in opposite direction.
This is not new ... christianity is used to keep people of African descent from
claiming their fair share of earthly riches, and voodoo wants people of African
descent to coupe tčt boule kaye and take their fair share.
> You'll be surprised to hear even in this
> country
Spirit knows no geographical boundary.
> Haitians still believe they can do harm to one another as I have
> recently heard a Haitian woman who lives in a project
what does living in a project has to do with this?
> saying to another "oh si
> yo emmerde'm mwen pral van'n yo wi pou'm guin lajan."
Guess what, the woman is right ... if she "sells" them and than ACTS on
subsequent spiritual inspirations, she will in fact acquire the money she needs.
> So, you see when they say
> Haitians must be reeducated for some people they see only the ABCs but again
> the education includes more than that.
And who is the human being that qualifies to reeducate Haitians in spiritual
matters?
kafou
>
>
> kafou wrote:
> > Would I be
> > considered brilliant, if I proclaim that our education leaves
> > a lot to be desired?
> >
>
> If you mean academic education ... I do not think schools should be
> responsible for our spiritual development because spiritual
> matters are personal between the individual and the spirits.
Good point. I guess I alluding to the process of brainwashing
most of us went through in catholic shools...
You know: Voodoo = bad, catholic church = good....
>When people are ready to serve, the spirits simply directs
> them to path where they are needed
> be it Voodoo, Christianity, Judaism, or whatever spiritual path.
This is interesting.... as my folks are still visiting, I told them
I was considering some Voodoo studies with Racine.... They have
threatened to disown me. Go figure!
Kafou "Mom thinks it is because I don't UNDERSTAND Catholicism." Lobo
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 01:37 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37DF30A0...@prodigy.net>
>Have you forgotten that our successful struggle for independence began
>at a Voodoo ceremony. Voodoo, our strong spiritual beliefs is the primary
>factor responsible for the survival of Africans and their descendants in the
>Americas.
Very true. But how come for almost two hundred years the beneficiary of that
said independence is in such a despicable situation? Your rush to incriminate
or to twist the meaning of my statement blinds you to the fact that in every
culture or religion the people's perspective and approach has a lot to do with
it. I understand what Racine was saying. But my point was she's reverberating
a belief that is retarding the growth of most Haitians. The reason is their
way of thinking and seeing voodoo and the role it plays in their lives is not
positive. Perhaps in a positive sense voodoo can be used as the descendants
have done to improve their lives, but instead the negative, the hostility, the
selfishness, the self hate, the disrespect for self and others, the greed, and
the division that exists among the people have a severe impact on the way
voodoo is viewed and utilized in the country. To this day there are Haitians
who will not talk about voodoo to a person outside their own culture because
they were conditioned to believe only the poor, and the uneducated are involved
in such poor people's religion. So to show their sophhistication and European
affiliations they have to pretend they have no knowledge or have been
associated with anyone who would possess such knowledge. Although lately as
more Ivy league graduates are coming forth by publically expressing their
involvement with voodoo to the American public, more Haitians will have the
strength to come forth and feel proud to show their associations, but it wasn't
like that before.
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 02:37 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37DF3EC4...@prodigy.net>
>descent to coupe tèt boule kaye and take their fair share.
>descent to coupe tèt boule kaye and take their fair share.
>
>> You'll be surprised to hear even in this
>> country
>
>Spirit knows no geographical boundary.
>
>> Haitians still believe they can do harm to one another as I have
>> recently heard a Haitian woman who lives in a project
>
>what does living in a project has to do with this?
>
>> saying to another "oh si
>> yo emmerde'm mwen pral van'n yo wi pou'm guin lajan."
>
>Guess what, the woman is right ... if she "sells" them and than ACTS on
>subsequent spiritual inspirations, she will in fact acquire the money she
>needs.
>
>> So, you see when they say
>> Haitians must be reeducated for some people they see only the ABCs but
>again
>> the education includes more than that.
>
>And who is the human being that qualifies to reeducate Haitians in spiritual
>matters?
>
You are so distorted, so twisted, you are finding it hard to see other sides
of a situation. Frankly, it is a common situation in this community. That's
one of the reason they are having difficulty analyzing their situation and to
reach a successful outcome. They are so locked up in a frame of mind, in a way
of thinking, anything that doesn't coincides with the popular beliefs should be
attacked and destroyed. Why don't you have a more openmind and consider other
views? Because since I have been reading your posts here I noticed an old
fashion attitude, an old way of thinking that to this day is still retarding
the development of the people back there.
kafou
>Although lately as
> more Ivy league graduates are coming forth by publically
>expressing their
> involvement with voodoo to the American public,
> more Haitians will have the
> strength to come forth and feel proud to show their associations,
>but it wasn't like that before.
Actually, the Haitian intelligentsia has always shown some interest
in Voodoo, albeit superficial.... They always considered to
be some type of archeological curiosity. Even Alfred Metreaux
and Francois Duvalier cannot refute my accusations. Their
approach is condescending at best, patronizing at worst.
Kafou "Self-appointed guru on Haitiana." Lobo ;^)
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
Uhhhh, okay! :-)
> but I can tell you Im not claiming that I am more knowledgeable
> on the subject than you are
I didn't think you were. I thought you were putting down
majority class Haitians. You WERE putting down majority class
Haitians, in fact.
> but as a native born who grew up on both sides of the aisle I
>can tell you I know pretty much.
Have you been initiated? Do you function as part of a Vodou
congregation? If not, I can tell you you know pretty little.
>What I am pointing out here is not an attack on the religion itself
>but on the mentality of most of the people who are affected by the
>religion.
Here we go again. There is nothing wrong with the "mentality"
of Vodouisants, lose the superior attitude. The Christians are
the ones with power and money in Haiti, mostly - what has
YOUR "mentality" produced?
> for the uneducated people of Haiti, the very poor who are most
>likely to rely on the local priest and priestess for some help from
>their desperate situation what you are saying here and the tone you
>use is very misleading.
In what way? I say that Vodou is GOOD, that it is POSITIVE,
that our religions has WORTH and VALUE. I say that Vodou
imparts strength, that it forges a connection between each
individual and ancient Guinea, back even before people lived in
houses, back to the dawn of human evolution.
I say that Vodou provides stability and security by creating
families where there were none. I say that Vodou is a
repository of cultural knowledge and beauty, that the ceremonial
art of Vodou is unparalleled in it's beauty. I say that Vodou
WORKS, and the magic we do also WORKS. I say that Vodou
and the way of life it supports is a HOLY life. I don't care
how many sick Bokor stories you tell.
Now, what is misleading about what I have just said? I think
I have made myself very clear.
>To me, and perhaps others here you can explain yourself clearly
>and be understood, but for those people down there they believe it
>literally.
Oh, you and I are soooo "superior", huh? Ryhmes with diahrrea.
>Many people believe the heavens are really for the poor and so they
>are enduring their poverty for the reward of everlasting life.
That is what the Bible teaches, in part. I believe it too - the suffering
men and women of Cite Soleil, for instance, does anyone at
all believe that their immortal souls would not be received and
solaced and renewed by a Loving God?
The rest of the work of a Christian, or a Vodouisant, is to work to
change conditions which are displeasing to God, which are bad
for people. THAT is the part that some evangelical so-called
Christian right-wing sousous forget; but in Vodou, our prayers
include the phrase, "Kreyol mande chanjman", the Creole asks
for CHANGE!
>You'll be surprised to hear even in this country Haitians still believe
>they can do harm to one another
You'll be surprised to know that they CAN. But malevolent magic
and Vodou are two different things.
> I have recently heard a Haitian woman who lives in a project
>saying to another "oh si yo emmerde'm mwen pral van'n yo wi
> pou'm guin lajan."
Her business, if she can find a Bokor to sell them to. We don't
do that work.
>So, you see when they say Haitians must be reeducated for
>some people they see only the ABCs but again
>the education includes more than that.
Haitians do NOT NEED TO BE "re-educated" to know how
"superior" you think you and I are. HAITIANS ARE GOOD,
HAITIANS ARE JUST FINE. What Haitians may need is
empowerment, to educate themselves in ways they see fit.
I don't mind telling you, I have learned much more from
Haitians than they ever learned from me - and I was both a
schoolteacher and a human rights educator, I taught a lot
of people a lot of things, but I reaped more than what I sowed,
due to the intelligence and generosity of those majority class,
Vodouisant Haitians!
What do you think, it's okay to practice Vodou as long as you
don't really believe in it too strongly? Or what? The person
I see who most needs re-education is YOU.
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>But how come for almost two hundred years the beneficiary of that
>said independence is in such a despicable situation?
I hope you are not going to tell us that Vodou is at fault! LOL!
Listen, there are better candidates - the USA right wing, CIA,
USAID, business interests. Racism. The elite sell-outs of
Haiti. Etc. The little Mambo in Port-au-Prince or in the countryside
is fighting a holding action, keeping her people ALIVE, not
oppressing them.
>But my point was she's reverberating a belief that is retarding the
>growth of most Haitians.
What a low opinion you have of Haitians. Now they are suffering
from "retarded growth"? BIG LIE.
>The reason is their way of thinking and seeing voodoo and the role
>it plays in their lives is not positive.
ANOTHER BIG LIE! And how the heck would you know, anyway?
Do you spend time living in a peristyle? Do you know how we
see Vodou, what role it plays in our lives? Stop thinking you
know all the answers, and ask a few questions instead.
Better yet, sister, come with me to Haiti. I will take you to a
beautiful peristyle, right beside one of the most beautiful
beaches in Haiti. The love we will give you there, the things you
will witness with your own eyes, may change your mind.
> the negative, the hostility, the selfishness, the self hate, the
>disrespect for self and others, the greed, and the division that
>exists among the people have a severe impact on the way
>voodoo is viewed and utilized in the country.
Hostility and greed may have an impact on how YOU view
Vodou. Vodou is NOT the root of hostility and greed. In fact,
Vodou is the antidote to hostility and greed.
> To this day there are Haitians who will not talk about voodoo
>to a person outside their own culture because they were
>conditioned to believe only the poor, and the uneducated are
>involved in such poor people's religion.
Well, lucky for the outsider, then! Such individuals know NOTHING
about Vodou.
> So to show their sophhistication and European affiliations they
>have to pretend they have no knowledge or have been
>associated with anyone who would possess such knowledge.
Sometimes they even do like you - pretend to know a little, and
then make silly criticisms with little basis in actual practice.
>lthough lately as more Ivy league graduates are coming forth by
>publically expressing their involvement with voodoo to the American
>public, more Haitians will have the strength to come forth and feel
>proud to show their associations, but it wasn't like that before.
And your point is? The character of Vodou does not change
depending on whether or not Ivy-league educated Haitians
approve ot it or not.
Guava Baby
>
I hate to speak for someone else but I *think* that all Marlene is
suggesting is that too many Haitians trust in Vodou and *only* Vodou to
solve their problems instead of trying (also) to effect change through
non-religious channels. I think she's suggesting that the fatalistic
attitude that impedes Haiti's progress is reinforced by Vodou. If you
remember the saying "God grant me the strength to change the things I
can and to endure the things I can't," it's as if the first part of the
saying is not being focused on adequately. I *think* that's all she's
suggesting.
Leigh
kafou
wrote:
> marelene wrote:
<snip>:
> Better yet, sister, come with me to Haiti. I will take you to a
> beautiful peristyle, right beside one of the most beautiful
> beaches in Haiti.
But, you make it sound like a country club for tourists,
who harbor pet-like interest in something so serious....
I know this not your intent, but it just comes across
as such.
Kafou
kafou
wrote:
<cutting through the chase>:
> What do you think, it's okay to practice Vodou as long as you
> don't really believe in it too strongly? Or what? The person
> I see who most needs re-education is YOU.
In her defense, you may be misunderstanding her point....
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>> beautiful peristyle, right beside one of the most beautiful
>> beaches in Haiti.
>
>But, you make it sound like a country club for tourists,
>who harbor pet-like interest in something so serious....
>I know this not your intent, but it just comes across
>as such.
>
>Kafou
Well... I dunno, what's wrong with learning about Vodou
in a safe and positive environment? Our peristyle is
BEAUTIFUL, the
beach across the field there is BEAUTIFUL too.
We are very serious about what we do, but that doesn't
mean we can't have fun, or have a sense of humor. Vodou
is all about living happy.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>I hate to speak for someone else but I *think* that all Marlene is
>suggesting is that too many Haitians trust in Vodou and *only*
>Vodou to solve their problems instead of trying (also) to effect
>change through non-religious channels.
That is not the fault of Vodou! That is the fault of decades of
dictatorship, which made political or social activism much too
dangerous and unrewarding. What's the point of going to the
Hatian Army "police" about the Macoute who took your land?
The "police" and the Macoute are buddies, they are cousins! What
good would it do to establish a farm co-op? The little coffee-
growers did that, with the result that the big growers, the Army,
and their attaches burned most of Borgne! Has anyone forgotten?
SOME Houngans and Mambos were co-opted and corrupted
by Duvalier and later regimes, no one is denying this. But not all!
My own Houngan had the honor of being arrested, imprisoned,
and beaten by the Haitian Army during the Cedras regime.
>I think she's suggesting that the fatalistic
>attitude that impedes Haiti's progress is reinforced by Vodou.
And it is NOT, not at all. Vodou provides a way to ACT. Vodou
does not say, "Oh well, just give up", far from it.
Guava Baby
>
(snip)
> >attitude that impedes Haiti's progress is reinforced by Vodou.
>
> And it is NOT, not at all. Vodou provides a way to ACT. Vodou
> does not say, "Oh well, just give up", far from it.
So is there a message similar to "God helps those who help themselves"
in Vodou? (I'm asking in all honesty and not to bait you. I'm curious,
that's all.)
Leigh
LA KAT47
>From: "kafou"
>This is interesting.... as my folks are still visiting, I told them
>I was considering some Voodoo studies with Racine.... They have
>threatened to disown me. Go figure!
>
>Kafou "Mom thinks it is because I don't UNDERSTAND Catholicism." Lobo
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Ironically, Catholicism is the only organized religion that tolerates Vodou,
albeit implicitly. Catholicism has a lot of mysteries and rituals and
talismans and icons........<smile> gee, it doesn't sound too unlike Vodou, does
it. I don't like to judge other people's spiritual beliefs and in return I do
not appreciate them denigrating Vodou. Whatever gets to your soul and doesn't
harm another....is A-ok with me.
LA KAT
Annette
Guava Baby wrote:
> the saying "God grant me the strength to change the things I
> can and to endure the things I can't,"
> Leigh
*I have read many articles on the religions in Haiti, the principal ones
being known to be Catholic/Voodoo...I know there are many more, something I
have realized in my trips...With due respect to all Faiths, one thing that
falls into consideration is: "what is the Faith of the *majority* of
Haitians re-known as *boat-people* do practice, or are known to
practice?"....It takes a lot of courage to brave the sea, they are
desperate indeed, some are surely Catholics, but I am wondering about "the
majority."....Annette.-
safia
kafou wrote:
> Good point. I guess I alluding to the process of brainwashing
> most of us went through in catholic shools...
> You know: Voodoo = bad, catholic church = good....
I see.
>
> >When people are ready to serve, the spirits simply directs
> > them to path where they are needed
> > be it Voodoo, Christianity, Judaism, or whatever spiritual path.
>
> This is interesting.... as my folks are still visiting, I told them
> I was considering some Voodoo studies with Racine.... They have
> threatened to disown me. Go figure!
If you are ready for Voodoo studies with Racine, no one and nothing will
get in your way.
> Kafou "Mom thinks it is because I don't UNDERSTAND Catholicism." Lobo
It could also be because you have learned all the lessons you needed to
learn in Catholicism and you are ready for initiation into another level
of spiritual development. If the next lessons you need to learn on this
plane are in Voodoo, then that is where you will take your next
initiation. The spirits will take you exactly where you need to be at
this point in time.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> Very true. But how come for almost two hundred years the beneficiary of that
> said independence is in such a despicable situation?
Despicable but still in the race of nations. Without Voodoo, it would not exist
at all, it would not even BE DESPICABLE.
> Your rush to incriminate
> or to twist the meaning of my statement blinds you to the fact that in every
> culture or religion the people's perspective and approach has a lot to do with
> it. I understand what Racine was saying. But my point was she's reverberating
> a belief that is retarding the growth of most Haitians. The reason is their
> way of thinking and seeing voodoo and the role it plays in their lives is not
> positive.
And my point is the opposite of yours. Without Voodoo, they would have NO LIVES
at all. * Life* must come before the growth and positive/negative roles that you
are focusing on .... If Voodoo is the force that keeps them ALIVE, how can the
role of Voodoo in their lives be NOT POSITIVE, except if you are saying the very
fact they/you ARE ALIVE in and of itself is not positive.
> Perhaps in a positive sense voodoo can be used as the descendants
> have done to improve their lives, but instead the negative, the hostility, the
> selfishness, the self hate, the disrespect for self and others, the greed, and
> the division that exists among the people
It's all different points on the same continuum, and everything you listed above
is both negative and negative, it's all relative.
> have a severe impact on the way
> voodoo is viewed and utilized in the country. To this day there are Haitians
> who will not talk about voodoo to a person outside their own culture because
> they were conditioned to believe only the poor, and the uneducated are involved
> in such poor people's religion. So to show their sophhistication and European
> affiliations they have to pretend they have no knowledge or have been
> associated with anyone who would possess such knowledge.
Spirit guides people do what is best for them, to do and talk about what works for
them, And avoid what does not work for them.
> Although lately asmore Ivy league graduates are coming forth by publically
> expressing their
> involvement with voodoo to the American public, more Haitians will have the
> strength to come forth and feel proud to show their associations, but it wasn't
> like that before.
It only means the lessons these Ivy league graduates need to learn at this point
in time are in Voodoo. There was an era when Free Masonry was the path where the
spirits took most young men Ivy league graduates because the lessons they need to
learn were in Free Masonry. Nowadays, Free Mason lodges are visited almost
exclusively by senior citizens while young Ivy league graduates men/women, are
following other spiritual paths like Voodoo.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> You are so distorted, so twisted, you are finding it hard to see other sides
> of a situation.
LOL mirror, mirror ... don't post while looking in the mirror.
> Frankly, it is a common situation in this community. That's
> one of the reason they are having difficulty analyzing their situation and to
> reach a successful outcome. They are so locked up in a frame of mind, in a way
> of thinking, anything that doesn't coincides with the popular beliefs should be
> attacked and destroyed. Why don't you have a more openmind and consider other
> views? Because since I have been reading your posts here I noticed an old
> fashion attitude, an old way of thinking that to this day is still retarding
> the development of the people back there.
ROTFLMH(Haitian)BAO ... now you want to make me, Safia responsible for the
development of 7+ millions people. I guess I was not aware of my own power.
Stick to the issue, your personal opinion of Safia the person, is irrelevant in
this discussion.
safia
LA KAT47 wrote:
> >Re: What is a Djab?
> >From: "kafou"
>
> >This is interesting.... as my folks are still visiting, I told them
> >I was considering some Voodoo studies with Racine.... They have
> >threatened to disown me. Go figure!
> >
> >Kafou "Mom thinks it is because I don't UNDERSTAND Catholicism." Lobo
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Ironically, Catholicism is the only organized religion that tolerates Vodou,
> albeit implicitly. Catholicism has a lot of mysteries and rituals and
> talismans and icons........<smile> gee, it doesn't sound too unlike Vodou, does
> it. I don't like to judge other people's spiritual beliefs and in return I do
> not appreciate them denigrating Vodou. Whatever gets to your soul and doesn't
> harm another....is A-ok with me.
The similarity is due in part to the fact that African slaves used to disguised
their altars and use Catholic icons to represent Voodoo lwas in order to fool
Catholic slave masters into thinking they were practicing Catholic rituals.
LA KAT47
>Perhaps in a positive sense voodoo can be used as the descendants
>have done to improve their lives, but instead the negative, the hostility,
>the
>selfishness, the self hate, the disrespect for self and others, the greed,
>and the division that exists among the people have a severe impact on the way
>voodoo is viewed and utilized in the country
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
All the people in Haiti need is a fair shake from the powers that be.
Education, employment and decent living conditions....All the things you
mentioned would be there Vodou or no Vodou. The truth is, upper class Haitians
are embarassed by Vodou....like it diminishes them in some way....as though it
makes Haitians look primitive and backwards. Desperate times make for
desperate people.
LA KAT
Mysteries
Education, employment and decent living conditions....All the things you
mentioned would be there Vodou or no Vodou. The truth is, upper class Haitians
are embarassed by Vodou....like it diminishes them in some way....as though it
makes Haitians look primitive and backwards. Desperate times make for
desperate people.
LA KAT
>>
Lakat this is true but it certainly is not confined to Haiti. I think it is
almost a univeral when you have a people anywhere who began as a rural or
tribal proletariat and times change. I think of the contempt certain Israelis
have for the Ethiopian Jews or the fear buppies in this country often have for
their own incredible roots art and customs. Its seen as 'country'.
I run into in the art world when you realize that trained artists in most third
world countries have the money to go to art school and the roots population
mostly does not so that the untrained artists represent the proletariat roots
of the country and the trained artists mostly represent the elite.
In the cities the ones just off the boat always get the shaft from the ones who
have been here a while (i mean of different ethnicities) and this often
includes prejdice against their religions.
Haiti's problems are not religious they are class and political.
R>
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>So is there a message similar to "God helps those who help themselves"
>in Vodou? (I'm asking in all honesty and not to bait you. I'm curious,
>that's all.)
Cool! And YES! There is indeed a feeling that an individual with
a particular problem is responsible for finding a creative solution
to that problem. That doesn't mean we don't recognize oppression
when we see it, though.
Usually, people take a two-pronged approach. A young man who
needs a job invokes the family lwa, and starts checking his
contacts. A woman with a chronically ill child goes to the clinic,
AND to the Mambo or Houngan.
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 09:34 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19990915093436...@ng-ci1.aol.com>
>
>I thought you were putting down
>majority class Haitians. You WERE putting down majority class
>Haitians, in fact.
Really? Surprisingly, the majority class Haitians if you meet them in the
streets in America, Canada, or France will deny point blank they have nothing
to do with voodoo.
>Have you been initiated? Do you function as part of a Vodou
>congregation? If not, I can tell you you know pretty little.
LOL...Speak for yourself my dear..."sel pa jan'm vante di'l sale."
> There is nothing wrong with the "mentality"
>of Vodouisants,
Don't patronize people now. Perhaps in your idealizing the religion as a
foreign-born you might think you know the deep seated mentality of the people,
but I can tell you, you don't..You are perpetuating a way of thinking since
that's the only way you have found in the counry and you don't want to be
objectionable.
>In what way? I say that Vodou is GOOD, that it is POSITIVE,
>that our religions has WORTH and VALUE. I say that Vodou
>imparts strength, that it forges a connection between each
>individual and ancient Guinea, back even before people lived in
>houses, back to the dawn of human
>evolution.I say that Vodou provides stability and security by creating
>families where there were none. I say that Vodou is a
>repository of cultural knowledge and beauty, that the ceremonial
>art of Vodou is unparalleled in it's beauty.
I agree with everything you said here. However, because of your education and
your exposure to other cultures you are more receptive to what voodoo as to
offer, but for most Haitians in the remote corner of the country
intellectualizing the religion is something totally foreign to them. The only
thing they know is that they have knowledge of something and that gives them
power. And they will use that power to gain respect since they don't have the
material things to show off with. It's just like guns in the ghetto. Most
uneducated and poor blacks have found owning a gun gives them power and control
because in a blink of an eye they can waste a person. What do you see in the
ghetto? Crime, poverty, ignorance, mental and spiritual deprivation. There is
nothing wrong with owning a gun; it is the way it's used and stored that is
questionable. Although Haitians have strong spiritual knowledge they DO NOT USE
IT CONSTRUCTIVELY, OR POSITIVELY. The ancestors who had used it constructively
had made something happened and with that they had changed history That's my
argument here. You can patronize people by saying their way of doing things is
right but the reality of the situation will prove otherwise.
>Oh, you and I are soooo "superior", huh? Ryhmes with diahrrea.
>
Do you have to patronize people to convince them that you are one of them?
Tell them the truth and how you can work with them to overcome what is clearly
not working for their own development, and you'll make a friend for life.
>You'll be surprised to know that they CAN. But malevolent magic
>and Vodou are two different things.
>
Im not surprised that they can b/c I have witnessed a young girl died and
before she died she named the name of the person who did her wrong..And
countless of other young women who are wasted b/c they didn't want to sleep
with so and so and he got upset and destroyed her future...Malevolent magic and
Voodoo are two different things but the fear that is being perpetuated in the
country doesn't make that distinction. A voodoo priest as they say in Haiti
who serves with two hands have the power to do good as well as evil and that's
the one who is most respected. Don't think being initiated into the religion
you were given all the power that be unless you, too, have two hands b/c the
same person who initiated you had maintained a certain level of control that in
case he needs you he will know where to find you.Remember that...
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 11:06 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37DFB5...@mindspring.com>
>
>I hate to speak for someone else but I *think* that all Marlene is
>suggesting is that too many Haitians trust in Vodou and *only* Vodou to
>solve their problems instead of trying (also) to effect change through
>non-religious channels. I think she's suggesting that the fatalistic
>attitude that impedes Haiti's progress is reinforced by Vodou. If you
>remember the saying "God grant me the strength to change the things I
>can and to endure the things I can't," it's as if the first part of the
>saying is not being focused on adequately. I *think* that's all she's
>suggesting.
>
>Leigh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I hate to speak for someone else but I *think* that all Marlene is
>suggesting is that too many Haitians trust in Vodou and *only* Vodou to
>solve their problems instead of trying (also) to effect change through
>non-religious channels. I think she's suggesting that the fatalistic
>attitude that impedes Haiti's progress is reinforced by Vodou. If you
>remember the saying "God grant me the strength to change the things I
>can and to endure the things I can't," it's as if the first part of the
>saying is not being focused on adequately. I *think* that's all she's
>suggesting.
>
>Leigh
>
Thank you very much for bringing some light to the issue here, and you are not
talking for someone else for doing so either. You see. I see too many people
in Haiti who will get up in the morning, sprinkled some water in the four
corners of their homes then whispered "mache al chache lajan pote vini." And
then they just sit and wait as if by magic Casper will make money appear. They
do believe little Casper did it when someone they have not seen in a while stop
by, they begged and got a few gourdes from the person. So is it where the
proud, the few, and the good voodooisant is going?
Marlene103
>Message-id: <19990915143922...@ng-ci1.aol.com>
>
>That is not the fault of Vodou! That is the fault of decades of
>dictatorship, which made political or social activism much too
>dangerous and unrewarding.
You see you are showing your lack of awareness of the Haitian psyche. Politics
and Voodoo are intertwined in the Haitian culture. Our ancestors have done it
to gain their independence and so it remained as such. There is nothing wrong
with that, but the focus has been too much on using voodoo to advance oneself
at the expense of others on an individual basis. The ancestors knew what they
were doing and the price involved, but for the Haitians of today they can
borrow from the neighbor to pay for the price if they can't afford it
themselves. And so that has created a fear in the hearts of the people.
Politicians and everyday citizens used it to manipulate and to control.
Duvalier wasn't the one who created it, he exploited it.
>What's the point of going to the
>Hatian Army "police" about the Macoute who took your land?
>The "police" and the Macoute are buddies, they are cousins!
In addition to being blood related, and armed, most likely that macoute is also
a priest or has a family member who is. And the fear of being used as a zombie
to advance that macoute's aim is too much to endure for a peasant, and so
he/she back down...You are expressing your western views of the Haitian
situation but Im telling you that's not the case. In addition to the ABCs the
Haitians need to know what you know and the way you know it about voodoo so
they can see the positive side of the religion and not to focus so much on the
negative side of it. As a newcomer to the religion you realize how beneficial
it can be, but most Haitians don't..Don't patronize, educate...
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 07:57 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37E031FB...@sympatico.ca>
>
>*I have read many articles on the religions in Haiti, the principal ones
>being known to be Catholic/Voodoo...I know there are many more, something I
>have realized in my trips...With due respect to all Faiths, one thing that
>falls into consideration is: "what is the Faith of the *majority* of
>Haitians re-known as *boat-people* do practice, or are known to
>practice?"....It takes a lot of courage to brave the sea, they are
>desperate indeed, some are surely Catholics, but I am wondering about "the
>majority."....Annette.-
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>*I have read many articles on the religions in Haiti, the principal ones
>being known to be Catholic/Voodoo...I know there are many more, something I
>have realized in my trips...With due respect to all Faiths, one thing that
>falls into consideration is: "what is the Faith of the *majority* of
>Haitians re-known as *boat-people* do practice, or are known to
>practice?"....It takes a lot of courage to brave the sea, they are
>desperate indeed, some are surely Catholics, but I am wondering about "the
>majority."....Annette.-
Annette, I do like you. But at times you seem to be in space although using
the net gives you that feeling it's not real..Do you really believe "the
majority of Haitians re-known as 'boat people'" are different from the rest of
the Haitians from Haiti?
Well, it does take courage to brave the seven seas in search of a better life.
But it's a story of most immigrants throughout the world. Im married to the
son of an Irish man, and how do you think my inlaws' relatives came to America?
By boat and they weren't the only one. The most famous Irish boat was named
the "coffin," and don't forget the "Mayflower." And the descendants of those
Irish "boat people" enjoy having one of their own countrymen became the first
Irish descendant and Catholics to be elected as president of the United States.
So, you see. It's all a matter of attitude, and know your history. Not too
long ago in Kosovo an ABC news cameraman showed a T-shirt worn by one of the
humanitarian workers with a logo that read "Einstein was a refugee." I
understand that most Haitians have been beat up so bad that kind of attitude is
beyond them especially when they are constantly meeting people who think they
can push them down with some silly remarks like that, but I'll tell you the
more Haitians become aware that being a "boat people" is not a shame but a mark
of Courage, entrepreneurship, strength, determination to take their lives into
their own hands and to change their lives themselves as they have seen no one
else will do it for them...That's pride...
With so many religions to choose from in the country, the population is divided
into different denominations. But it has been said that Catholicism and Voodoo
are the two dominant religions in the country. Frankly, in my humble opinion,
catholicism gives Haiti a second hand to welcome foreigners who are not astute
in the voodoo religion, so they won't be too scared. They will have something
they can relate to. And with so many missionaries of the catholic faith in the
country they can't be ignored, but their main goal is to overcome a religion
they fear and not openminded to learn about either.
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 09:03 AM EDT
>Message-id: <nOMD3.10464$LL2.1...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>
>
>From: "kafou" ka...@NOSPAM.banet.net
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 09:03 AM EDT
>Message-id: <nOMD3.10464$LL2.1...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>
>
>Actually, the Haitian intelligentsia has always shown some interest
>in Voodoo, albeit superficial.... They always considered to
>be some type of archeological curiosity. Even Alfred Metreaux
>and Francois Duvalier cannot refute my accusations. Their
>approach is condescending at best, patronizing at worst.
>
>Actually, the Haitian intelligentsia has always shown some interest
>in Voodoo, albeit superficial.... They always considered to
>be some type of archeological curiosity. Even Alfred Metreaux
>and Francois Duvalier cannot refute my accusations. Their
>approach is condescending at best, patronizing at worst.
>
Well, I have not been blessed to be familliar the the HI to debate your
comment, but one thing I know many Anthropologists are fascinated by voodoo b/c
I have read some of their work. And I believe their curiosity is triggered by
the fact that this is a considered ancient religion with a successful history
that is still unknown for the most part to the rest of the world. I have hope
as more outsiders become familiar with it and as more Haitians are becoming
more at ease with themselves in reference to voodoo, it will gain the
recognition it deserves.
Marlene103
>Message-id: <19990915094554...@ng-ci1.aol.com>
>I hope you are not going to tell us that Vodou is at fault! LOL!
You said that because you don't live the fear voodooisants generates in the
heart of the people which can cripple the most willing mind..
>Listen, there are better candidates - the USA right wing, CIA,
>USAID, business interests. Racism. The elite sell-outs of
>Haiti. Etc.
As you said in your previous posts voodoo was used by the ancestors to liberate
their people, apparently the forces you are pointing out here are more powerful
than voodoo if it can't do anything to counteract their control.
>What a low opinion you have of Haitians. Now they are suffering
>from "retarded growth"? BIG LIE.
>
Telling someone the truth may do more good than ignoring the fact lest of
upsetting the apple cart.
>ANOTHER BIG LIE! And how the heck would you know, anyway?
>Do you spend time living in a peristyle? Do you know how we
>see Vodou, what role it plays in our lives? Stop thinking you
>know all the answers, and ask a few questions instead.
For you it's a new discovery and you are running with the new knowledge, but
remember it was there before your arrival as well as the people you found
there..You are talking like the European settlers now. They claimed to
discover a land that was already inhabited .
>Better yet, sister, come with me to Haiti. I will take you to a
>beautiful peristyle, right beside one of the most beautiful
>beaches in Haiti. The love we will give you there, the things you
>will witness with your own eyes, may change your mind.
LOL...you are funny. Haiti has been here with its people for God knows when,
where were you? I can understand that you are excited about your discovery, go
spread the word, but don't convince me. I may have more to teach you
sister..Be humble. Don't think you know all there is know just b/c you spent a
few years or months down there. You have not lived the Haitian experience as of
yet...You are learning..be patient.
Annette
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: Annette leonard...@sympatico.ca
> >Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 07:57 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E031FB...@sympatico.ca>
> >
>
> >*I have read many articles on the religions in Haiti, the principal ones
> >being known to be Catholic/Voodoo...I know there are many more, something I
> >have realized in my trips...With due respect to all Faiths, one thing that
> >falls into consideration is: "what is the Faith of the *majority* of
> >Haitians re-known as *boat-people* do practice, or are known to
> >practice?"....It takes a lot of courage to brave the sea, they are
> >desperate indeed, some are surely Catholics, but I am wondering about "the
> >majority."....Annette.-
>
> Annette, I do like you. But at times you seem to be in space although using
> the net gives you that feeling it's not real..Do you really believe "the
> majority of Haitians re-known as 'boat people'" are different from the rest of
> the Haitians from Haiti?
*Very glad you like me....BTW I am here to educate/inform myself, if I can't get
the answers here I will get them myself in my next trip... :) My husband and I
were having a conversation about Haitians leaving Haiti on "boats" if you want to
call them "boats"...I will put my question clearer: "How many of the persons on
those "boats" are of the Voodoo faith?"...All I am trying to understand is if
Voodoo could excite persons to take such risks...You have detailed some very good
points about how gaulible some are. (My husband says that *I* am doing quite a good
job here BTW and that is all the encouragement I need.)
>
>
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
Thank you very much for bringing some light to the issue here, and you are not
> Thank you very much for bringing some light to the issue here, and you are not
> talking for someone else for doing so either. You see. I see too many people
> in Haiti who will get up in the morning, sprinkled some water in the four
> corners of their homes then whispered "mache al chache lajan pote vini." And
> then they just sit and wait as if by magic Casper will make money appear. They
> do believe little Casper did it when someone they have not seen in a while stop
> by, they begged and got a few gourdes from the person.
Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their way with a few
gourdes?
> So is it where the
> proud, the few, and the good voodooisant is going?
And where are you, Marlene, going?
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
[snip]
> Im not surprised that they can b/c I have witnessed a young girl died and
> before she died she named the name of the person who did her wrong..And
> countless of other young women who are wasted b/c they didn't want to sleep
> with so and so and he got upset and destroyed her future...
Not that I condone malfčktč yo, but those girls should have asked for
protection. Spiritual protection is available to all. And those who are not dead
can also use Voodoo to undo what the malfčktč did, their future does not have to
be what the malfčktč wants it to be. Voodoo can break and more importantly,
Voodoo can also MAKE.
> Malevolent magic and
> Voodoo are two different things but the fear that is being perpetuated in the
> country doesn't make that distinction. A voodoo priest as they say in Haiti
> who serves with two hands have the power to do good as well as evil and that's
> the one who is most respected. Don't think being initiated into the religion
> you were given all the power that be unless you, too, have two hands b/c the
> same person who initiated you had maintained a certain level of control that in
> case he needs you he will know where to find you.Remember that...
I do not want to answer for Racine. I just want to point that the one who
performed the initiation is not more powerful than the spirits. S/he does not
control the degree to which the spirits protect those s/he initiated. S/he cannot
find a person the spirits does not want him/her to find.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> You see you are showing your lack of awareness of the Haitian psyche. Politics
> and Voodoo are intertwined in the Haitian culture. Our ancestors have done it
> to gain their independence and so it remained as such. There is nothing wrong
> with that, but the focus has been too much on using voodoo to advance oneself
> at the expense of others on an individual basis. The ancestors knew what they
> were doing and the price involved, but for the Haitians of today they can
> borrow from the neighbor to pay for the price if they can't afford it
> themselves.
LOL. sounds like you are saying Haitians of today can fool the spirits by paying
with what they borrow from the neighbor. Every person pays his/her own debts and
learns his/her own lessons. NO human being can trick the spirits.
Kevin Filan
Greetings, folks. My Pimsleur Language Program (Haitian
Creole) just arrived in the mail today, so soon y'all
should be reading some of the most godawful Kreyol you
ever saw. (Hey, can't learn a language without using it,
and what better place to use Kreyol that s.c.h?)
In article <19990914223000...@ng-fh1.aol.com>, marle...@aol.com
says...
>>From: raci...@aol.com (Mambo Racine Sans Bout)
>>Date: Tue, 14 September 1999 10:04 AM EDT
>>Message-id: <19990914100422...@ng-fn1.aol.com>
>
>>Oh, what a snotty remark. No one has suggested that courage,
>>effort, faith, or charity are unnecessary. In fact, much of Vodou
>>ritual is dedicated toward stimulating courage and imparting strength.
>
>Im sorry that you read my comment as a snotty remark, but I can tell you Im
not
>claiming that I am more knowledgeable on the subject than you are but as a
>native born who grew up on both sides of the aisle I can tell you I know
pretty
>much.
I am sure that you have an understanding of Haitian culture which would
be difficult, if not impossible, for a foreign-born person to grasp.
You may also have some prejudices which a foreigner might not have. I have
gathered that many wealthier Haitians look down upon Vodou as a primitive
superstitious cult and an embarrassment. I also know that many Haitian
immigrants and Haitian-Americans will vehemently deny all ties to Vodou
while proclaiming themselves Protestant/Catholic.
Many African-Americans buy into the idea that light skin and Caucasian
features are "prettier" or "better" than dark skin and African features.
Often they don't even *realize* that they are buying into this idea.
You may well be doing something similar.
> What I am pointing out here is not an attack on the religion itself but
>on the mentality of most of the people who are affected by the religion. For
>the well educated, open minded and well versed on the religions of the world,
>voodoo is just another religion that should be accepted and respected as any
>other religion: however, for the uneducated people of Haiti, the very poor who
>are most likely to rely on the local priest and priestess for some help from
>their desperate situation what you are saying here and the tone you use is
very misleading.
You are stating an important point which we all should consider; Vodou *has*
been misused in Haiti. Duvalier's Tonton Macoutes are one blatant and ugly
example of this. There are certainly con artists and flim-flam men in Vodou,
who prey on the weak and the desperate. But, as you later state, this is
true of *any* other religion. To equate Vodou with these bad examples is
like equating Christianity with the Inquisition and Jim Bakker, and assuming
from there that every Christian was necessarily a con artist or a torturer.
I'd also bring up the example of Frank, a Haitian I met during my brief
trip to Haiti. Frank had a battered American children's textbook for Grade 2
or Grade 3 Reading; he studied it religiously in an effort to learn English.
Every chance he got he tried to have conversations with me and with the other
blans on the lakuv to pick up every English word he could. I don't know if
I've ever seen anyone fight so hard for every scrap of knowledge he could
find, just so he could better himself. And he was a dedicated Vodouisant.
This hardly strikes me as someone sitting back and saying "I don't have to
better my situation because the lwa have willed this."
> To me, and perhaps others here you can explain yourself clearly
>and be understood, but for those people down there they believe it literally.
>Just like the missionaries who said "bon Die bon, priye pitit," Many people
>believe the heavens are really for the poor and so they are enduring their
>poverty for the reward of everlasting life.
And then there's that poor sucker Frank, studying his children's
textbook and dreaming of traveling to America and working like a
dog to make a better life for himself and his family.
Religion -- any religion -- can be an opiate. If a poor person, who
has little chance of ever becoming anything but a poor person, takes
that opiate and assuages their misery by dreaming of something better
in the next life, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Are pain killers
bad when they're given to cancer patients?
> There are two forces that are vying
>for the people's mind down there: the voodoo and christianity and the poor are
>being pulled in opposite direction. You'll be surprised to hear even in this
>country Haitians still believe they can do harm to one another as I have
>recently heard a Haitian woman who lives in a project saying to another "oh si
>yo emmerde'm mwen pral van'n yo wi pou'm guin lajan."
Having seen Vodou firsthand, *I* believe you can do harm to
one another with it, and I'm not even Haitian.
That said, I also know that curses are a *miniscule* part of
the daily practice of Vodou. There are far more wangas done
for good luck, good fortune, good health, etc. than wangas
done for malefic purposes.
Peace
Kevin Filan
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
If a well man prays, that's faith. A sick man prays and he
is just scared. Nuts to prayer! This is the world you made and
you make it all by yourself and what little outside help you got --
well you made that too. Stop praying, you jerk.
-- Raymond Chandler
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
kafo...@my-deja.com
> >Kafou "Mom thinks it is because I don't UNDERSTAND Catholicism."
Lobo
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Ironically, Catholicism is the only organized religion that tolerates
> Vodou, albeit implicitly.
Well, my mom is on the right hand side of 65.... I don't expect
her to change her mind any time soon.
> Catholicism has a lot of mysteries and rituals and
> talismans and icons........<smile> gee, it doesn't sound too unlike
> Vodou, does it.
I dunno..... I am a reformed Catholic, my opinion may not
carry too much weight in some circles.
>I don't like to judge other people's spiritual beliefs and in
>return I do not appreciate them denigrating Vodou.
Intellectually, I agree with you... However, things are not
so demarcated in Haiti. There are a whole slew of dynamics
and components that render everything so difficult.
>Whatever gets to your soul and doesn't harm another....is A-ok with me.
> LA KAT
Hey, to me too...
Kafou
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
kafo...@my-deja.com
myst...@aol.com (Mysteries) wrote:
Lakat said:
> >The truth is, upper class Haitians
> >are embarassed by Vodou....like it diminishes them in some way....
> >as though it makes Haitians look primitive and backwards.
>
> LA KAT
> >>
>
> Lakat this is true but it certainly is not confined to Haiti. I
> think it is almost a univeral when you have a people
> anywhere who began as a rural or
> tribal proletariat and times change.
Ah! The sole voice of reason, in this sea of madness....
> Haiti's problems are not religious they are class and political.
Amen!
kafou
wrote:
<snip>:
Great post!
Kafou
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 10:38 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37E0583B...@prodigy.net>
>Despicable but still in the race of nations.
What a concept? Im at the bottom of the barrel at least Im in the
barrel..LOL...Thanks a lot..I can see we should be grateful for at least being
there.
>And my point is the opposite of yours. Without Voodoo, they would have NO
>LIVES
>at all.
I can see that we are at the opposite side of the spectrum. What is voodoo?
How come without it they would have no lives? Religions don't use people,
people used religions. And it is the way people used their knowledge of
religion that will make or break their lives. My position is Voodoo has a lot
to offer Haitians if only they can put it to good use rather than using it to
scare, frighten, control, manipulate and to destroy their fellow men.
>Spirit guides people do what is best for them, to do and talk about what
>works for
>them, And avoid what does not work for them.
Very true, but many times they don't listen because the advice doesn't coincide
with their wants or needs.
>It only means the lessons these Ivy league graduates need to learn at this
>point
>in time are in Voodoo.
I don't believe that. The lesson was there and was learned, but wasn't
publically acknowledge for fear of being judged since voodoo was considered by
the dominant religion as "religion of the savages" and no respected individuals
will dare associate themselves with such religion if they don't want to be an
outcast. What those graduates are doing is using their education not to support
those who had encouraged them to turn their backs on voodoo but rather to shed
some lights on it and to give it credence. I applaud them because if the
older educated group of Haitians had the courage these young people are
displaying right now to support voodoo, it would have received the deserved
recognition long ago. Instead the older generation went along to get along.
Time a changing my friend..
>Free Mason lodges are visited almost
>exclusively by senior citizens while young Ivy league graduates men/women,
>are
>following other spiritual paths like Voodoo.
That is not really the case. The reason is the role Mason/lodges played at the
turn of the century in the lives of the people in their community have been
reduced since most of the needs are being taken care of by government programs.
The older generation is holding on because they know and was the beneficiary
of the services provided by the lodges. They have activities for children,
fundraising and other community building activities. It's all depend on what
the Ivy league graduates consider as a need in their lives.
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 08:31 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990915203105...@ng-cr1.aol.com>
>The truth is, upper class Haitians
>are embarassed by Vodou....like it diminishes them in some way....as though
>it
>makes Haitians look primitive and backwards. Desperate times make for
>desperate people.
>
>LA KAT
>
Yes, Lakat. Because of their European affiliations which dictates the value of
their religion and they went along with it. That attitude also support the
backwards view on the religion and its impact of the lives of the people. So
they used it to feel powerful and to avenge themselves when they feel
mistreated.
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:04 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37E06C5C...@prodigy.net>
>
>Not that I condone malfčktč yo, but those girls should have asked for
>protection. Spiritual protection is available to all. And those who are not
>dead
>can also use Voodoo to undo what the malfčktč did, their future does not
>have to
>be what the malfčktč wants it to be. Voodoo can break and more
>importantly,
>Voodoo can also MAKE.
Well, that's the main problem. That's what encourages the ongoing fear that
exists in the country. People are desperately in search of protection against
curse and so they become afraid of doing anything that can be seen by others as
a reason to put a curse on them..That's crippling in a way.Not just physically
but most importantly psychologically. And I think outsiders may have something
to do with the physical impact of Haiti's condition but the psychological
impact for the most part has to do with the ways the Haitians choose to do
things internally.
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:10 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37E06DCD...@prodigy.net>
>
>Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their way with a
>few
>gourdes?
>Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their way with a
>few
>gourdes?
Only in the mind. Why can't they be taught to fish rather than waiting for a
fish to be given to them?
Marlene103
>Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 11:17 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37E060C2...@sympatico.ca>
>How many of the persons on
>those "boats" are of the Voodoo faith?"
When a person finds an opportunity to leave a situation I don't think his/her
religion plays any role in it..It's just like some better off people who coulld
not get a visa or constantly gotten rejection suddenly found a way to leave by
boat will not reject that offer just because it's a group of poor, voodoo
practitioners who will be leaving with him/her..As the old sailor said "Any
port in a storm." So religion has nothing to do with who leaves and the manner
they did.
Guava Baby
>
> LA KAT47 wrote:
>
> > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> > Ironically, Catholicism is the only organized religion that tolerates Vodou,
> > talismans and icons........<smile> gee, it doesn't sound too unlike Vodou, does
> > not appreciate them denigrating Vodou. Whatever gets to your soul and doesn't
> > harm another....is A-ok with me.
>
> their altars and use Catholic icons to represent Voodoo lwas in order to fool
> Catholic slave masters into thinking they were practicing Catholic rituals.
To take the subject even farther off track, I am curious how believers
in Vodou view Santaria. I believe (and I'm sure I'll be vehemently
corrected if I'm mistaken!) that there is a greater difference between
the two faiths than language and name, but since they share common roots
there must be many similarities.
I've never taken a comparative religions course, so my main point of
reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
Leigh
kafou
>The truth is, upper class Haitians
> are embarassed by Vodou....like it diminishes them in some
>way....as though it
> makes Haitians look primitive and backwards.
See, such drive-by statements ignore the historical dynamics
of a whole country. The contempt for Vodou was learned from
the slave holders, and passed on from generations to
generations....
kafou
<guav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I've never taken a comparative religions course, so my main point of
> reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
> Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
>
> Leigh
Vodou is probably the only religion that is not interested in
competing with others. It is also the only one, that has
never killed in the name of a God.
kafou
> >From: safia sa...@prodigy.net
> >Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:10 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E06DCD...@prodigy.net>
> >Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their
> >way with a few gourdes?
>
> Only in the mind. Why can't they be taught to fish rather than
> waiting for a fish to be given to them?
I dunno, you sound like you are indicting and belittling
the beliefs of a whole nation... Do you really want
to go there?
Mysteries
the beliefs of a whole nation... Do you really want
to go there?
Kafou >>
I'm not so sure it isn't just about having the last word. Marlene's point
seems to be very very basic i.e, people shouldn't do evil. Cool. We'll tell
them. I have met very evil Baptists and very very evil Catholics and fascist
pig Jews. They were evil to begin with and the religion was just a tool in
their hands. It was not a blase indictment of religion. Again take care with
the sweeping generalities.
R.
Mysteries
reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
Leigh >>
It depends on which aspect of Santeria you are speaking of. Lecumi is
primarily Yoruba and is very orthodox in its purest forms (almost more pure
than in Nigeria sometimes) and Palo Mayombe has a Kongo base. Racine or
Soutini can elucidate further but Vodou is somewhat more heterogeneous in that
the Nations or Families often function within the same peristyle and/or
ceremony.
It is inevitable that there was some feeding back and forth between Haiti and
Cuba for many many historical reasons.
Keeping it simple,
R.
Mysteries
See, such drive-by statements ignore the historical dynamics
of a whole country. >>
It should not be forgotten that some major historians and anthropologists and
practitioners came from the Haitian middle-class and elite among them
Price-Mars and Milo Rigaud and his wife Odette Meneson (sp)
Rigaud to name just a very few. There was much elite respect for the religion
in the movement known as Negritude, and Vodou was a major source of inspiration
for Haiti's multi class literature and music movements.
The sweeping generalities do ignore the well-documented history...
R>
kafou
> There was much elite respect for the religion
> in the movement known as Negritude,
While this is true, there seems to have been a lack of intellectual
conviction as far as Vodou is concerned. You will find such attitude
in all of Haiti's litterary movements, from La Generation de la Ronde
to Les Griots. Had that conviction been there, Vodou might have
had a major facelift domestically, and internationally.
Kafou "My opinions are mine, unless One agrees with them." Lobo
Kevin Filan
says...
>
>>m: safia sa...@prodigy.net
>>Message-id: <37E06C5C...@prodigy.net>
>>
>
>>Not that I condone malfčktč yo, but those girls should have asked for
>>protection. Spiritual protection is available to all. And those who are not
>>dead
>>can also use Voodoo to undo what the malfčktč did, their future does not
>>have to
>>be what the malfčktč wants it to be. Voodoo can break and more
>>importantly,
>>Voodoo can also MAKE.
>
>Well, that's the main problem. That's what encourages the ongoing fear that
>exists in the country. People are desperately in search of protection against
>curse and so they become afraid of doing anything that can be seen by others
as
>a reason to put a curse on them..
????
I didn't see that kind of fear among the Haitians that I encountered. I have
heard others, mostly Catholics, claim that Vodoun and Santeria were religions
of superstition, enslavement, and fear... and yet the Voudouisants and Santeros
I have met have not struck me as particularly superstitious, enslaved, or
fearful people.
I would say that Haitians are more afraid of bullets, machetes,and beatings
than they are of wanga, and that this (entirely reasonable and justified) fear
might contribute to Haitian reserve and guardedness more than a fear of bokors.
>That's crippling in a way.Not just physically
>but most importantly psychologically.
Let's put it this way: from my limited experience, the average Haitian is less
frightened of curses, black magic and evil spirits than your average
American/Canadian "white light" occultist or Pagan. These are part of their
paradigm, but not a particularly significant one. When a person feels he or
she is under attack by a baka, a djab, a mort, a bokor, or some other evil
force, he or she can take advantage of a wide variety of protections. Most of
these protections are not particularly onerous or expensive; simple things like
a candle and some rum for an honored ancestor will go a long way toward keeping
you djabless (pardon the pun).
> And I think outsiders may have something
>to do with the physical impact of Haiti's condition but the psychological
>impact for the most part has to do with the ways the Haitians choose to do
>things internally.
How would you do things differently?
safia
Mysteries wrote:
> << I dunno, you sound like you are indicting and belittling
> the beliefs of a whole nation... Do you really want
> to go there?
>
> Kafou >>
>
> I'm not so sure it isn't just about having the last word. Marlene's point
> seems to be very very basic i.e, people shouldn't do evil. Cool.
Marlene needs to get on with the program of this plane. Good and evil are two
sides of the same coin. the universe will not be BALANCED if BOTH forces (good
and evil) were not with us simultaneously. It is not for nothing that nature
also provides ways to protect oneself against evil. It is inevitable that some
will do evil as surely as others will do good. People should make it their
personal RESPONSIBILITY to protect themselves against evil.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>To take the subject even farther off track, I am curious how believers
>in Vodou view Santaria. I believe (and I'm sure I'll be vehemently
>corrected if I'm mistaken!) that there is a greater difference between
>the two faiths than language and name, but since they share common roots
>there must be many similarities.
>
>I've never taken a comparative religions course, so my main point of
>reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
>Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
Common elements in both traditions of course include
possession, ancestor reverence, drumming as a
sacred service, and so on. Santeria places a
lot more emphasis on Nago orisha, to the exclusion of
other groups. Vodou embraces Congo, Ibo, Hausa, Senegalese,
European pre-Christian, Native Caribbean, and other influences.
You know, in the August 1999 group which I took to Haiti for
initiation, there were two Iyalochas and one Babalawo.
Now, some people in Santeria have experienced
resistance and condemnation from others in Santeria
who have misconceptions about Vodou. Others
have had no such problems.
There are two sections on The VODOU Page dealing
with this:
A Dialog Between Vodou and Santeria
I am the Iyalocha Who Will Be a Mambo!
Both these sections are accessible from The VODOU Page
under the New Links section.
Bon Mambo Racine Sans Bout Sa Te La Daginen
"Se bon ki ra",
Good is rare - Haitian Proverb
The VODOU Page - http://members.aol.com/racine125/index.html
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>>few
>>gourdes?
>
(Marlene wrote:)
>Only in the mind. Why can't they be taught to fish rather than waiting for a
>fish to be given to them?
Oh, those naughty, naughty Vodouisants, they just won't see
things the way you want them too, huh, Marlene?
Where do you get OFF with these negative attitudes about
majority class Haitians? If they were sitting around "waiting
for a fish to be given to them", they would have all DIED
OF HUNGER BY NOW. Your attitude is a lot like that
same fish, three days old.
Mambo Racine Sans Bout
>>I thought you were putting down
>>majority class Haitians. You WERE putting down majority class
>>Haitians, in fact.
Marlene responded:
>Really? Surprisingly, the majority class Haitians if you meet
>them in the streets in America, Canada, or France will deny point
>blank they have nothing to do with voodoo.
They will deny what they choose to deny to you or whoever
else they wish. That is different from putting down majority class
Haitians, which is what you were doing.
>>Have you been initiated? Do you function as part of a Vodou
>>congregation? If not, I can tell you you know pretty little.
>
>LOL...Speak for yourself my dear..."sel pa jan'm vante di'l sale."
I repeat, if you are not initiated, and you are not funtioning as
part of a congregation, then you can not know very much about
what Vodou is all about, or what it means to us.
>Don't patronize people now. Perhaps in your idealizing the
>religion as a foreign-born you might think you know the deep
>seated mentality of the people,
>but I can tell you, you don't.
Oh what a crock of sh*t. Listen up, Marlene! This is not about
nationality or race, you don't get to be a Vodouisant simply
by being born black and Haitian! LOL! And you certainly don't get
the asson that way either! I am not speaking *as a Haitian*, I'm not
Haitian. I am speaking as Mambo asogwe of the Vodou, a clergy
person of this faith, which I have been for the past ten years. THAT is
where I derive my authority, and you are to respect that fact.
>You are perpetuating a way of thinking since that's the only
>way you have found in the counry and you don't want to be
>objectionable.
I don't care a horse's rump if you find me objectionable! LOL! And
to the contrary, far from perpetuating your mentality of scorn
for majority class Haitians, progressive Vodouisants of all
nationalities are a force for liberation!
>I agree with everything you said here. However, because of your
>education and your exposure to other cultures you are more
>receptive to what voodoo as to offer, but for most Haitians in the
>remote corner of the country intellectualizing the religion is
>something totally foreign to them.
WHAT? This is nuts. You think that *I*, because I am "educated",
somehow have a deeper understanding of Vodou than those
"Haitians in remote corners"? Puh-LEASE, stop putting down
Haitians! As far as I can see, the one intellectualizing is YOU.
If I have a deeper understanding than someone else, it is because
of my years of training, my two initiations and ordinations, my
years of practice as a Mambo in Haiti and the USA.
> The only thing they know is that they have knowledge of something
>and that gives them power. And they will use that power to gain
>respect since they don't have the material things to show off with.
SCH, where does this person get this stuff? "The only thing they
know", huh?
Marlene, I shouldn't even take the time to describe these
experiences to you, but here goes:
One of the men in our peristyle is named Eric. He spent a lot
of time in the DR, and he speaks Spanish. He is kanzo, and we
teased him about whether or not he had observed the 41 days of
sexual abstinence required when initiation is complete. You see,
Eric is a tall, attractive man, and we were sure he had plenty of
opportunities to break the rules.
Eric said, "Mwen se yon neg sent. Mwen pa konn fe kont
a moun, mwen pa nan anyen ki mal." I am a holy man. I don't
quarrel with people, I don't do anything bad. Evaluating Eric's
behavior, I think his statements are true. Eric is committed to
living by the values he identifies with Vodou - love, justice,
work, love, peace, regard for biological family, love, respect for
the lwa, and more love! LOL!
Here is another one:
I know another man, named Emile, who is one of the more respected
men in his community. I don't think he will be angry if I say that he
is definitely not wealthy, or highly educated, he does not own a 4x4.
But even though he doesn't have "material things to show off", his
neighbors and the members of the Vodou congregation he attends
respect him very much - for his temperament, his hard work, his
principles, his reputation for honesty. You think that Haitians are
just, like, unreclaimable materialists, or what?
>It's just like guns in the ghetto. Most uneducated and poor blacks
>have found owning a gun gives them power and control
>because in a blink of an eye they can waste a person.
WOW! Now you have also become an authority on those
"uneducated, poor, ghetto blacks", huh? WHERE do you
get this stuff? LOL! Most poor blacks do NOT own a gun.
You make it sound like over 50% of blacks earning less than
$15K are armed!
>Although Haitians have strong spiritual knowledge they DO NOT
>USE IT CONSTRUCTIVELY, OR POSITIVELY.
Generalize, generalize! I guess I just have a much better
opinion of Haitians than you do.
>>Oh, you and I are soooo "superior", huh? Ryhmes with diahrrea.
>>
>
>Do you have to patronize people to convince them that you are
>one of them?
I don't know, do you? I am not trying to convince anyone that
I am a majority class Haitian, I am speaking on my authority
as a Mambo of the Vodou.
>Tell them the truth and how you can work with them to overcome
>what is clearly not working for their own development, and you'll
>make a friend for life.
Okay, Bwana.
> A voodoo priest as they say in Haiti who serves with two hands
>have the power to do good as well as evil and that's the one who is
>most respected.
No, that's not true. The popular claim to make nowadays is
"I serve franc Guinea", pure Guinea. There is even a song, by
Azor I think, where the singer taunts someone "serving with two
hands" by saying, "Mwen sevi franc Gine, ou menm ou nan
de chemen". I serve pure Guinea, you are in two roads. You
would know this, too, if you had the slightest idea what you
were talking about, if you were current in Vodou, if you were
even current in "racine" (Creole - rasin) music.
>Don't think being initiated into the religion you were given all the
>power that be unless you, too, have two hands b/c the
>same person who initiated you had maintained a certain level of
>control that in case he needs you he will know where to find
>you. Remember that...
The people who initiated me are my FATHER, Yabofai Bon Houngan,
and my MOTHER, his wife, Mambo Leanne. As my initiatory
parents, they are sworn to protect me in the same way that they
would one of their biological children. You have a very negative attitude.
Why don't you just get up off the bucks for a plane ticket and
come to our lakou? We will bathe you in buckets and buckets
of love, you can dance to the drums and the lwa will come and
talk with you, and then you can see for yourself what
Guinea is.
LA KAT47
>From: "kafou"
>See, such drive-by statements ignore the historical dynamics
>of a whole country.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It is defensive of you to characterize my statement as "drive by" and that is
telling in itself. Do you suddenly identify with the elite? I was under the
impression your feet were firmly planted in the middle class garden......;).
LA KAT
kafou
> I have met very evil Baptists and very very evil Catholics and
> fascist pig Jews.
Now, you know you are my boy, and you do have the moral authority
to speak in such terms... But, the uninitiated may think
badly of SCH.....
Kafou "The brother is Jewish.... So, there!" Lobo
LA KAT47
>Haiti's problems are not religious they are class and political.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
We agree totally.
LA KAT
Mysteries
> I have met very evil Baptists and very very evil Catholics and
> fascist pig Jew >>
lol
There is this guy on cable TV here in NY broadcasting out of Brooklyn who is a
Meir Kahane freak and who is so right of right wing he is no longer allowed
into Israel. I did not make him up......ok ok maybe my use of a pork word was
a bit strong but not in reality.
I used to get beat up as a teenager by the forerunners of the Jewish Defense
League.
People are people, man. That is all I meant to say but I do appreciate your
gentle (not gentile) reproof.
R.
kafou
wrote:
<snip>:
> I didn't see that kind of fear among the Haitians that I
> encountered.
I dunno.... I have always accused Haitians of suffering from
chronic paranoia.... and I think I am right.
Kafou "Look at SCH, only two people post with real names." Lobo
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: Annette leonard...@sympatico.ca
> >Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 11:17 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E060C2...@sympatico.ca>
>
> >How many of the persons on
> >those "boats" are of the Voodoo faith?"
>
> When a person finds an opportunity to leave a situation I don't think his/her
> religion plays any role in it..
There are many who stay in Haiti because their lwa(s) do not want them to leave the
country. Also many who do leave spend time and money putting their spiritual
affairs in order before boarding the plane or boat.
[snip]
> So religion has nothing to do with who leaves and the manner
> they did.
You don't know that for sure.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: safia sa...@prodigy.net
> >Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:10 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E06DCD...@prodigy.net>
> >
>
> >Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their way with a
> >few
> >gourdes?
>
> >Can you prove the spirits they invoked did not send someone their way with a
> >few
> >gourdes?
>
> Only in the mind.
Mark my words ... one day you will learn to invoke the spirits and accept their
guidance.
> Why can't they be taught to fish rather than waiting for a
> fish to be given to them?
Are you asking why can't the SPIRITS teach them how to fish rather than wait for
a fish to be given to them? LOL now Marlene is powerful/wise enough to question
the way the spirits work. ... there is more to this world than the 5 senses.
and cannot prove that spiritually these people were WAITING, and not FISHING.
safia
LA KAT47 wrote:
> >Re: What is a Djab?
> >From: marle...@aol.com (Marlene103)
>
> >Well, that's the main problem. That's what encourages the ongoing fear that
> >exists in the country. People are desperately in search of protection
> >against curse and so they become afraid of doing anything that can be seen by
> others
> >as a reason to put a curse on them..That's crippling in a way.Not just
> >physically
> <snip>
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Many evil things are done by humans in the name of one religion or other.....it
> is the person who does the evil that should be blamed and not the religion
> (unless the religion itself dictates evil......not a normal occurance.) I would
> look to socio-economic factors to explain most of the greed and mental illness
> suffered by the people from whom you want to deny the comfort and succor of
> their spirits. If Karma exists (and I believe it does).......no one has to
> punish anyone......it will be done.
True true. sa moun fč se li yo wč
Barbara Caramba Coker
Guava Baby wrote:
>
> > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
To take the subject even farther off track, I am curious how believers
in Vodou view Santaria. I believe (and I'm sure I'll be vehemently
corrected if I'm mistaken!) that there is a greater difference between
the two faiths than language and name, but since they share common roots
there must be many similarities.
I've never taken a comparative religions course, so my main point of
reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
Leigh
Hi,
The following link will take you to "A Folk Tale of Haitian Mythology" and
put an online glossary at your disposal:
http://www.haitiforum.com/page2.htm
Barbara Coker
LA KAT47
>I am curious how believers
>in Vodou view Santaria.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You know what? I don't think most Vodouisants give Santeria much thought at
all. There is no competition or that weird attitude that other beliefs
threaten their own. I would imagine most people who practice Vodou in Haiti
have many more things to bother with than other people's religious differences.
;))
LA KAT
LA KAT47
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 11:25 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37E10B...@mindspring.com>
>I've never taken a comparative religions course, so my main point of
>reference is Christianity. Are the two somewhat like competing
>Protestant faiths i.e., similar but distinct?
>
I grew up in a christian home although I have been exposed to the Protestants
the only different I noticed was in their doctrines. Protestants are more
relaxed in a sense in contrast to the Christians or to the one I knew I wasn't
allowed to wear jewelry or wear nail polish. I used to envy the Protestants
because of that. But Im sure the Protestants in Ireland are not concerned
about petty stuff like that...
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 01:00 PM EDT
>Message-id: <mm9E3.11395$LL2.1...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>
>Vodou is probably the only religion that is not interested in
>competing with others. It is also the only one, that has
>never killed in the name of a God
May be not to the same popular God we all are aware of or in the same manner..
I have heard some pretty stories of sacrifices being made to a particular loa,
and I can tell you it is a sacrifice when the person who's making it doesn't
usually have much him/herself and he/she's spending thousands for a ceremony,
and sometimes going into debt to make that obligation...One time I went to a
ceremony with hubby and suddenly a man who was possessed with Ghede approached
me and put a 10 gourdes on my lap and he said within a year I have to send me a
$1000 American money for his feast. LOL...I cried bloody murder. Higher
robbery..I said where the hell that Ghede got the idea Im willing to take his
10 gourdes for a $1000. But in any case I was obliged..LOL..I didn't want to
experience so many legendary stories I have heard about the consequences of not
meeting his demands. But I resent every penny of it...LOL...Both of us thought
we were singled out to be exploited because no local resident will be able to
repay a loan like that in American money.
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 06:33 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990916183352...@ng-fx1.aol.com>
>I repeat, if you are not initiated, and you are not funtioning as
>part of a congregation, then you can not know very much about
>what Vodou is all about, or what it means to us.
I have been reading your posts here for a while now, and my opinion is this:
It seems that before you were involved in voodoo you didn't have an identity or
something so strong that you can shout to the roof of your lungs about. Your
presence here does serve a purpose. Sharing the knowledge you have acquired
with others who are not as confident about their involvement or willing to come
out publically as much as you had displayed here. But what amazes me is the
fact that by your involvement in voodoo you seem to claim an authority in the
Haitian culture that surpasses a native born. I understand that you are very
excited about the experience, but I can tell you voodoo when used negatively is
very destructive. There is an aura of fear that is crippling the mind of
Haitians, even those who are living abroad but still remain in the community
carry that fear with them. Seeing you ranting like that enthusiastically is
very encouraging but I can tell you not all Haitians see it like you do.
Perhaps your enthusiasm will rub on them and they will change their attitudes
about the religion and use it in the most positive way. You are not the only
foreign born who is that enthusiastic. Im married to an Irish who is very
fascinated as you are and jokes about opening his own peristyle one day in
P-au-P. It's not unusual to see people like you so emotional. You are doing a
very good job bringing more people to the country for the experience. The more
the better. Keep it up.
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:54 PM EDT
>Message-id: <eh9E3.11393$LL2.1...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>
>I dunno, you sound like you are indicting and belittling
>the beliefs of a whole nation... Do you really want
>to go there?
>
Not at all. Im surprised that you even referred to it as "the beliefs of a
whole nation" considering how those who practiced it are look down upon by the
majority of the well to dos in the country. Perhaps those who look down on
others do so when it is beneficial to them; however a culture that really
represents a nation is cherished and revered not only by a segment of that
population but to the whole nation. And that can be hardly said about voodoo
in Haiti. I saw Japanese bow their heads in greetings to each other and to
foreigners regardless of class. Can we say that about voodoo in Haiti?
Marlene103
>Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 04:55 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37E15933...@prodigy.net>
>
>
>It is inevitable that some
>will do evil as surely as others will do good.
True, but for what I have seen Haitians are more prone to do evil than good to
his fellow men because of jealousy, greed, envy and simply to gain respect.
Until I see a change in what's happening in the country I cannot say otherwise.
A child who shows promise in school is claimed to have been killed because of
jealousy from neighbors. If you are intelligent, you are showing off. If you
run a business you better get some protection because the neighbor next door is
going to test you. Come on? How can someone progress in an environment like
that?
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: safia sa...@prodigy.net
> >Date: Wed, 15 September 1999 10:38 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E0583B...@prodigy.net>
>
> >Despicable but still in the race of nations.
>
> What a concept? Im at the bottom of the barrel at least Im in the
> barrel.
We are counted among independent nations, and we have a seat at the UN. No, we
are not the #1 on world superpower, but we are still in the race. Would you
rather we drop out of the race altogether and become say ..... part of the United
States?
> .LOL...Thanks a lot..I can see we should be grateful for at least being
> there.
Our ancestors worked hard, gave their lives, to join the race of nations, and we
damned well better be grateful that we are still IN the race as we continue to
improve our position.
> >And my point is the opposite of yours. Without Voodoo, they would have NO
> >LIVES
> >at all.
>
> I can see that we are at the opposite side of the spectrum. What is voodoo?
> How come without it they would have no lives? Religions don't use people,
> people used religions. And it is the way people used their knowledge of
> religion that will make or break their lives.
Voodoo has done much good for Haitians and Haitian lives.
> My position is Voodoo has a lot
> to offer Haitians if only they can put it to good use rather than using it to
> scare, frighten, control, manipulate and to destroy their fellow men.
There is a time a place when humans MUST scare, frighten, control, manipulate, and
destroy their fellow men as surely as there is a time and place when humans MUST
do the very opposite, to maintain proper BALANCE. Those who don't scare,
frighten, control, manipulate, and destroy their fellow men when they MUST perish
or worst, they remain alive and pay dearly for disregarding their responsibility.
> >Spirit guides people do what is best for them, to do and talk about what
> >works for
> >them, And avoid what does not work for them.
>
> Very true, but many times they don't listen because the advice doesn't coincide
> with their wants or needs.
True, and they pay the consequences also.
> >It only means the lessons these Ivy league graduates need to learn at this
> >point
> >in time are in Voodoo.
>
> I don't believe that. The lesson was there and was learned, but wasn't
> publically acknowledge
Sounds like you saying the Ivy league graduates that are being initiated in Voodoo
in our era had learned the spiritual lessons that Voodoo holds for them long
before their Voodoo initiation. And this makes no sense at all
> for fear of being judged since voodoo was considered by
> the dominant religion as "religion of the savages" and no respected individuals
> will dare associate themselves with such religion if they don't want to be an
> outcast. What those graduates are doing is using their education not to support
> those who had encouraged them to turn their backs on voodoo but rather to shed
> some lights on it and to give it credence. I applaud them because if the
> older educated group of Haitians had the courage
Maybe it not a matter a courage at all, maybe that simply was not the spiritual
mission the spirits gave to the older educated group of Haitians.
> these young people are
> displaying right now to support voodoo, it would have received the deserved
> recognition long ago.
Maybe the RECOGNITION you are talking about is not what the spirits wanted long
ago.
> Instead the older generation went along to get along.
> Time a changing my friend..
True ... change is the only constant in our world.
> >Free Mason lodges are visited almost
> >exclusively by senior citizens while young Ivy league graduates men/women,
> >are
> >following other spiritual paths like Voodoo.
>
> That is not really the case. The reason is the role Mason/lodges played at the
> turn of the century in the lives of the people in their community have been
> reduced since most of the needs are being taken care of by government programs.
Prince Charles broke royal tradition and opted not to become a member, does that
mean the British government has replaced Free Masonry as the provider for the
royal family's material needs? ... government programs are not intended to
address people's spiritual needs.
> The older generation is holding on because they know and was the beneficiary
> of the services provided by the lodges. They have activities for children,
> fundraising and other community building activities.
True ... and they themselves say membership has decreased since the boomer
generation entered adulthood. Even Prince Charles broke royal tradition and opted
not to join them.
>It's all depend on what
>the Ivy league graduates consider as a need in their lives.
True ... Ivy leagues graduates that turn to Voodoo find that Voodoo holds the
spiritual lessons they NEED to learn.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >m: safia sa...@prodigy.net
> >Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 12:04 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E06C5C...@prodigy.net>
> >
>
> >Not that I condone malfčktč yo, but those girls should have asked for
> >protection. Spiritual protection is available to all. And those who are not
> >dead
> >can also use Voodoo to undo what the malfčktč did, their future does not
> >have to
> >be what the malfčktč wants it to be. Voodoo can break and more
> >importantly,
> >Voodoo can also MAKE.
>
> Well, that's the main problem. That's what encourages the ongoing fear that
> exists in the country.
Why do you chose to see it as a PROBLEM. You talks as though humans have the
power to remove evil from this world ... well, we do not. But we do have the
means and the power to protect ourselves against it, and we should focus on self
protection.
> People are desperately in search of protection against
> curse and so they become afraid of doing anything that can be seen by others as
> a reason to put a curse on them..That's crippling in a way.Not just physically
> but most importantly psychologically. And I think outsiders may have something
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
As you said in your last sentence here, you were asked that specific amount
because you were able to provide it. True no local resident would be able to pay
that amount in American money, but that does not mean local residents are never
asked to pay what THEY CAN PAY. The spirits never ask what we do not have.
safia
Marlene103 wrote:
> >From: safia sa...@prodigy.net
> >Date: Thu, 16 September 1999 04:55 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E15933...@prodigy.net>
> >
> >
>
> >It is inevitable that some
> >will do evil as surely as others will do good.
>
> True, but for what I have seen Haitians are more prone to do evil than good to
> his fellow men because of jealousy, greed, envy and simply to gain respect.
> Until I see a change in what's happening in the country I cannot say otherwise.
> A child who shows promise in school is claimed to have been killed because of
> jealousy from neighbors.
What about the child's parents, why did they not protect their child?
> If you are intelligent, you are showing off. If you
> run a business you better get some protection because the neighbor next door is
> going to test you. Come on? How can someone progress in an environment like
> that?
Easy, self protection. We have no control over evil, the best we can do is
protect ourselves against it. Humans have no control over sea motions, do you
think it is wrong for people to carry life savings jackets when going out to sea?
do you think life saving jackets impede the progress of those who work above and
below the seas?