Ellnves, avtista8eite..!
e_vla...@hotmail.com
Filoi mou sas grafw gia va sas ferw eis tnv prosoxn sas auta pou
sumbaivouv stnv Ellada mas tov teleutaio kaipo me afopmn tns diadnlwseis twv
metavastwv. Antista8eite stov slabiko epeaktatismo pou exouv knpuxei
"polemo" evavtiov tns Ellados. Oi Skopiavoi, pave va dnmioupgnsouv 1,500,000
"Makedoves" stnv Makedovia mas kai oi Albavoi vomizouv oti epeidn mpaivouv
paravoma stnv Ellada gia va doulepsouv mpopei kai va mas pndnxouv. Oi
Toupkoi, exouv kai autoi tous skopous tous gia tous Ellnves. Prosexte mnv
givei n Ellada Bosvia n Kosufopedio giati etsi opws paei n Ellada gia ekei
badizoume. H upap3n tns fulns mas ti8etai upo amfisbntnsn apo Slabous kai
Moggolous. H sumpepifora pollwv vewv eivai apapadektn oso afopa tis
gevvnseis. Kaveis veos dev evdiafepetai gia patpida kai oikogeveia. Exoume
baftisei ta Ellnvika idewdn ws xouvtika kai akpodexia. Ti mualo eivai auto
pou katadikazei tis basikes apxes evos e8vous pou uparkei gia xiliades
xpovia. Odeuoume pros tnv katastpofn olotaxws. Hp8e o kaipos va afnsoume
tis dutikes axies pou pnmaxav tous veous mas kai mas bouliaxav stnv popveia,
vapkwtika, kai tnv apistia. Mou faivetai oti eimaste eidos upo e3afavisn me
tnv popeia pou tpabame. Ppepei oloi va baloume to kefali katw kai va
skeftoume pws mpoupoume atomika va givoume kalutepoi sav av8pwpoi gia va
givei kai to suvolo twv Ellnvwv swstoi av8pwpoi stnv koivwvia pou zoume. Oi
suvn8eies pou mas afnsav 400 xpovia toupkokpatias prepei va kopouv kai va
xavagupisoume stis pizes twv apxaiwv umwv progovwv pou doxasav tnv Ellada kai
skorpisav tov politismo mas ava tov kosmo. Pou eivai oi kaivoupgioi
Lewvides, Pepiklhdes k.t.l pou 8a nge8ouv epi twv Ellnvwv gia va pame
mprosta. Elpizw autes tis agies mepes va skefteite ola auta pou grafw.
Xpovia Polla kai Kalo Pasxa.
Filika,
Mavwlns Blamakns
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Mihalis Panagiotakis
e_vla...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Filoi mou sas grafw gia va sas ferw eis tnv prosoxn sas auta pou
> sumbaivouv stnv Ellada mas tov teleutaio kaipo me afopmn tns diadnlwseis twv
> metavastwv.
Diadhlwseis? Pote ? Pou? Plhroforeisete kai mas tous jenitemenous!
> Antista8eite stov slabiko epeaktatismo pou exouv knpuxei
> "polemo" evavtiov tns Ellados.
Epeidh pente apo borran malakes mas ta spane sto soc.culture.greek den
shmainei oti apeiloumaste ws e0nos apo ton "slabiko epektatismo". Gia
osous exoun xasei thn epafh
me thn pragmatikothta oi apo borran geitones (den anaferw onomata gia na
mh mas
ta spane oi anegkefaloi me postings)einai mia ejairetika ftwxh, "e0nika"
dixasmenh
xwra h opoia htan tritokosmikh epi eniaias giougkoslabias (opoios exei
perasei apo
kei prin to 90 0a exei dei) kai twra einai tritokosmikoterh. Para to
gegonos oti
uparxoun kai kei "e0nikistarades" (an kai oi pio akraioi einai kanadoi
kai australoi
pou gnwrizoun thn perioxh ws epi to pleiston apo fwtografies) af'enos
einai oiktrh
meiopshfia (apo ta pososta pou pairnoun ta antistoixa kommata, gurw sto
15% an den kanw
la0os) kai af'eterou an exoun to pneumatiko epipedo twn omoideatwn tous
sto usenet
tote eimaste apoluta asfaleis...
An milame pantws gia epektatismo... oi perissoteres epigrafes
katasthmatwn, ta onomata
radiothleoptikwn sta0mwn kai olo kai perissotero meros tou lejilogiou
twn neolaiistikwn periodikwn poikilhs ulhs einai sta agglika....Apo pou
kinduneueei loipon (an kinduneuei
pou amfiballw) h "e0nikh mas tautothta";
> Oi Skopiavoi, pave va dnmioupgnsouv 1,500,000
> "Makedoves" stnv Makedovia mas
Den mporei kaneis na dhmiourghsei kati pou den uparxei....
>kai oi Albavoi vomizouv oti epeidn mpaivouv
> paravoma stnv Ellada gia va doulepsouv mpopei kai va mas pndnxouv.
Kala, egw pantws pou erxomai duo mhnes ton xrono sthn Ellada den blepw
na mas phdane
oi Albanoi *en genei*... uparxei ena sobaro pososto egklhmatiwn anamesa
stous albanous..
Autoi pantws pou douleuane sta oikogeneiaka mas xwrafia stis Arxanes
(ejw apo to Hrakleio) pro duo-triwn etwn, kaloi an0rwpoi fainontousan
kai douleutarades. Afou
bgalane kapoia fragka janagurisan sto xwrio tous sthn Albania...
> Oi
> Toupkoi, exouv kai autoi tous skopous tous gia tous Ellnves.
Oi Tourkia apotelei ton *monadiko* kata thn gnwmh mou sobaro "e0niko
kinduno",
toso me thn sunexizomenh katoxh ths B.Kuprou, oso kai me tis
diekdikhseis tous
sto Aigaio.
> Prosexte mnv
> givei n Ellada Bosvia n Kosufopedio giati etsi opws paei n Ellada gia ekei
> badizoume.
Api0ano mou fainetai....
> H upap3n tns fulns mas ti8etai upo amfisbntnsn apo Slabous kai
> Moggolous.
Moggolous? Mas khrujan polemo apo to Oulan-Mpator? Pote?
Oso gia tis "fules" mas, den jerw ti 0a pei fulh se auta ta
sumfrazomena... Ypo0etw oti
0a h0eles na peis "e0nikh tautothta". An nomizeis oti oi apo Borran
anohtoi
apoteloun, ar0rografontas edw, "apeilh", nomizw oti tous upertimas....
> H sumpepifora pollwv vewv eivai apapadektn oso afopa tis
> gevvnseis.
Kala... na doume prwta ti ginetai sthn Ellada kai meta milame gia
"aparadekth" sumperifora...
Exw ena zeugari filwn pou ta bgazoun pera me 500 xiliarika kai exoun
kanei
to "la0os" na exoun duo paidia... Thn bgazoun *para polu* duskola kai
skeftontai
akoma kai ta tsigara pou 0a paroun....Yparxoun POLY xeirotera. To 0ema
einai oti kanenas th shmeron hmera, kai kalws kanei, den kanei paidi gia
na toxei na peinaei, Opoios omogenhs 'h mh 0elei na suneisferei
sthn aujhsh ths gennhtikothtas den exei para na primodothsei proswpika
ellhnikes
oikogeneies. Xarin tou "eksugxronismou" ths ellhnikhs oikonomias (dhladh
ths
paraxwrhshs olo kai megaluterou tmhmatos twn forwn MAS se kammia
eikosaria
megaloergalabous/ekdotes kai se diafores jenes etairies kai to jepoulhma
ellhnikwn
etairiwn se jenes)to ftwxotero 50% tou Ellhnikou plh0usmou zei ftwxotera
apo
oti prin apo 15 xronia kai ta pragmata xeirotereuoun.
> Kaveis veos dev evdiafepetai gia patpida kai oikogeveia.
Den eimai sigouros gia to ti ennoeis...
> Exoume
> baftisei ta Ellnvika idewdn ws xouvtika kai akpodexia.
Den jerw poioi exoume baptisei ti, alla egw proswpika ta xountika kai
akrodejia idewdh
einai pou apokalw "xountika" kai "akrodejia"... Poia 0a eleges pws einai
auta
ta " Ellhnika" idewdh sta opoia anaferesai...
> Ti mualo eivai auto
> pou katadikazei tis basikes apxes evos e8vous pou uparkei gia xiliades
> xpovia.
Se poies akribws arxes anaferesai;
> Odeuoume pros tnv katastpofn olotaxws. Hp8e o kaipos va afnsoume
> tis dutikes axies pou pnmaxav tous veous mas kai mas bouliaxav stnv popveia,
> vapkwtika, kai tnv apistia.
"... eixa rapsei sto sakkaki
duo sakkoulia me mauraki
kai sta koufia mou takounia
hrwinh ws ta mpounia...."
"to tragoudi tou la0remporou" ~1930
... Otan mpoukarw ston teke
ton nargile plakwnw
kai mes sta fullokardia mou
trabw ton jeligwnw
gurw sto 1925 (;)... Oi pio enhmerwmenoi as dior0wsoun tis
xronologies. Apeira
tetoia tragoudia. Den mas ta feran oi dutikoi ta narkwtika... panta edw
htan.
Oso gia thn porneia, oi 0eseis ergasias gia tis Ellhnides periorizontai
kai oi
diaforoi ntabrantismenoi neoellhnes ejuphretountai apo gunaikes
anatolikoeurwpaikhs
katagwghs. Gia thn apistia ti na pw; H lejh "keratas" prepei na einai
arxaioellhnikh ;-)
> Mou faivetai oti eimaste eidos upo e3afavisn me
> tnv popeia pou tpabame.
Den to nomizw, sta alh0eia...
> Ppepei oloi va baloume to kefali katw kai va
> skeftoume pws mpoupoume atomika va givoume kalutepoi sav av8pwpoi gia va
> givei kai to suvolo twv Ellnvwv swstoi av8pwpoi stnv koivwvia pou zoume.
To problhma einai oti den sumfwnoume oloi sto ti shmainei kaluteros
an0rwpos.
Alliws oloi sumfwnoune sto parapanw...
> Oi
> suvn8eies pou mas afnsav 400 xpovia toupkokpatias prepei va kopouv kai va
> xavagupisoume stis pizes twv apxaiwv umwv progovwv pou doxasav tnv Ellada kai
> skorpisav tov politismo mas ava tov kosmo.
Metaju twn "arxaiwn mas progonwn" kai ths Tourkokratias mesolaboun an
den kanw
la0os h Rwmaiokratia, to Buzantio kai h Fragkokratia... Sobara 0a h0ele
kapoios
na epistrepsoume sthn douloparoikia;;;
> Pou eivai oi kaivoupgioi
> Lewvides, Pepiklhdes k.t.l pou 8a nge8ouv epi twv Ellnvwv gia va pame
> mprosta.
Auto pou xreiazomaste einai ligoteroi hgetes kai perissoteros koinos
nous....oso
gia ton Periklh nomizw oti pe0ane apo loimo katathn diarkeia ths
poliorkeias
twn A0hnwn apo tous *Spartiates* kai oti epi twn hmerwn tou h A0hna
esfaje kai
katalhstepse arketous sunellhnes....
> Elpizw autes tis agies mepes va skefteite ola auta pou grafw.
> Xpovia Polla kai Kalo Pasxa.
Kalo Pasxa kai geroi namaste na diafwnoume :-)
>
> Filika,
>
> Mavwlns Blamakns
Filikotata
Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
DKorominas
MANOLI GIA SOU !!!
Imai oDimitris apo Germania.
Diavasa auta pou egrapses kai mporo na po
pos singinithika !!
Sou stelno ta hairetismata mou kai sou euhomai
kallo Pasha kai kalli ANASTASI
SE Haireto!!!!!!!!
Konstantinos Tsapakis
:))
Poly oraio itan auto. Alla sto telos de mporousa para na anarrotiemai an
aksizei toso paidema gia ena akoma ethnoysteriko deliriaki. Na pantos
pou kamia fora i analysi aksizei pio poly ap' to analyomeno :)
KT
-------------------------------------------
Hoc censeo et Carthago delenda esse.
- Cato -
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <199805010418...@ladder03.news.aol.com> rom...@aol.com (Romaios) writes:
>Manoli Vlamaki
>To vasikotero problima pou emeis oi Romioi/Ellines exoume einai i
>ypogeneticotita.
>An den auxisoume to plythismo mas, sta epomena 20 0 hronia o ellinismos tis
>ellados tha einai istoria.
>Oi politeia kai i ekklisia preppei panti to tropo na auxisoun tin genitikotita
>ton Ellinon/Romaion. I foroloyia einai enas tropos.
>Den mou les Manoli; yparhei organismos stin Ellada yia tin geniticotita ton
>Ellhnon?
>Romaois
Ti les mwpe e3unve; Ano note e3aptatai h Pwmiosuvh ano thv gevhtikothta? Nai,
va divoume ki alles anallages stov ka8e avegkefalo kai avegkefalh nou dev
3epouv ti 8a nei kanota kai diafpagma gia va kavouv avegkefala 'Pwmiakia'.
Pe, 3unvhste! O Ellhvismos kai h Pwmiosuvh navtote kpath8hke me E3ellhvismo
tpitwv. Dev xpeiazetai oute fobatai h Pwmiosuvh 'gevvhtikothtes'.
"Oblivion, indeed I would even go as far as to say historical error, is a most
essential factor in the creation of a nation."
"H lh8h, isws akomh kai to istopiko sfalma, eivai shmavtikotatoi napagovtes sthv
dhmioupgia evos e8vous"
Ernest Renan, "What is a Nation?" (1882)
Stavros N. Karageorgis
kara...@ucla.edu
Romaios
costas zissiadis
>Ti les mwpe e3unve; Ano note e3aptatai h Pwmiosuvh ano thv gevhtikothta? Nai,
>va divoume ki alles anallages stov ka8e avegkefalo kai avegkefalh nou dev
>3epouv ti 8a nei kanota kai diafpagma gia va kavouv avegkefala 'Pwmiakia'.
>
>Pe, 3unvhste! O Ellhvismos kai h Pwmiosuvh navtote kpath8hke me E3ellhvismo
>tpitwv. Dev xpeiazetai oute fobatai h Pwmiosuvh 'gevvhtikothtes'.
Asteras Amaliadas
On 1 May 1998, Romaios wrote:
> To vasikotero problima pou emeis oi Romioi/Ellines exoume einai i
> ypogeneticotita.
H Ellada exei para polla problhmata. H upogennhtikothta einai stagona ston
wkeano!
> An den auxisoume to plythismo mas, sta epomena 20 0 hronia o ellinismos tis
> ellados tha einai istoria.
Yuxraimia re paidia! Mhn akouw AHDIES! Mou 8umises to "Gamate giati
xanomaste!" pou arxika eipw8hke otan anakoinw8hkan ta stoixeia gia thn
upogennhtikothta sthn Ellada kai ektimh8hke oti "xanomaste ws e8nos"! To
"20 0" den 3erw an shmainei "20" h' "200". 3erw omws oti stis teleutaies
apografes o plh8usmos au3anete polu arga (logw ousiastika au3hshs tou
mesou orou zwhs ki oxi logw au3hshs ru8mou gennhsewn-dhladh ginomaste ena
e8nos gerwn).
> Oi politeia kai i ekklisia preppei panti to tropo na auxisoun tin genitikotita
> ton Ellinon/Romaion. I foroloyia einai enas tropos.
An katalaba proteineis ena susthma pou 8a forologei tous poluteknous pio
elastika apo autous me liga h ka8olou paidia! Tetoia metra hdh uparxoun,
omws den eparkoun.
Egw, an apofasisa na mpw sto thread htan giati exw na proteinw kati allo
(pou fusika den einai "h ellhnopoihsh twn kogkolezwn", opws proteine
allos):
Austhrh apagoreush ths amblwshs, toulaxiston stis periptwseis pou den
suntrexoun koinwnikoi logoi (biasmoi, klp). Isws stous "koinwnikous
logous" na prepei na sumperilh8foun kai oi anupantres, mia pou h ellhnikh
koinwnia den exei ma8ei na sugxwrei auto to "egklhma". 8a eprepe omws na
xorhgountai epidomata ki alles dieukolunseis stis anupantres mhteres, wste
na tis boh8hsoun na apofasizoun na krathsoun oto paidi, pou alliws den 8a
mporousan na megalwsoun, oxi mono logw ths koinwnikhs katakraughs, alla
kai ths elleiyhs porwn!
Sthn D. Germania pou upefere apo to problhma ths upogennhtikothtas ola
auta ta xronia, h amblwsh htan 100% paranomh me ena nomo paromoio me auton
pou tote eixe kai h Ellada (milaw gia epoxh prin to PASOK pou nomimopoihse
tis amblwseis). ME THN MONH DIAFORA OTI O NOMOS EFARMWZONTAN STHN D.
GERMANIA KAI DEN EGINE OUTE MIA EKTRWSH XWRIS IATRIKH GNWMATEUSH, ENW STHN
ELLADA EIXAME 300.000 PARANOMES EKTRWSEIS TON XRONO! Dhladh, an o nomos
efarmozontan kai sthn Ellada, apo apografh se apografh 8a eixame au3hsh
plh8usmous 3.5 ekatomuria!
Apo suzhthsh pou eixa me ena gunaikologo, autos pisteue oti o ari8mos twn
ektrwsewn den 3epernouse tis 120.000 tote kai tis 90.000 twra. Omws, opws
ki an exei, einai ena e3wfreniko noumero!
An dextoume oti badizoume me 90.000 to xrono, auto shmainei oti an
apagoreuontan, 8a eixame 1.000.000 au3hsh plh8usmou apo apografh se
apografh!
Kai 8elete na sas to pw kai alliws;;; As dextoume oti auton ton xrono
(1997) eginan 90.000 ektrwseis. To apotelesma gia thn Ellada einai to idio
me to na dolofonh8oun to etos 1997+18=2015 90.000/2=45.000 ELLHNES
STRATIWTES!
(to "18" stous upologismous einai h strateusimh hlikia, to "2" ta duo
fula, gia osous ta ma8hmatika kai oi gnwseis tous einai periorismenes).
To eidate pote etsi; Oti dhladh ka8e xrono skotwnoume 50.000 fantarous
mas; Na poia einai h "e8nikh prosfora" ths "dikaiwmatos" ths ektrwshs!
Edw, kurioi, den xwrane "proodeutismoi" kai loipes malakies! H D. Germania
den epetrepe ektrwseis! Sthn Anatolikh Germania, oi ektrwseis htan
sunh8eis! Sthn Bretannia oi ektrwseis einai teleiws eleu8eres. Sthn ESSD
tou Stalin epetrepontan oi ektrwseis, alla otan o Stalin eide oti auto
apotelouse genoktonia, tis stamathse o idios! Blepete, oti ka8e xwra telos
pantwn apofasizei oxi me bash kapoia politikh pou epibaletai ap to
koinwniko ths susthma, alla me bash tis anagkes ths. Kai h Ellada EXEI
PROBLHMA!
Alla, peran ths E8nikhs shmasias, as doume to zhthma apo h8ikhs pleuras.
Na doume an prepei na exoume to dikaiwma na kanoume ektrwseis. To erthma
gia mena einai:
Poio "dikaiwma"; Na DOLOFONEIS mia an8rwpinh upar3h, mono kai mono giati
"sou ftanoun ta paidia pou exeis"; Otan to skarwnes, htan kala omws!
Kai edw 8a kata8esw thn dikh mou proswpikh marturia pou den exei sumbei
mallon se kanenan apo sas, logw tou oti den einai koinwnikhs fusews (den
afhsa pote' kammia gunaika egguo), alla episthmonikhs:
Eimai Biologos. Otan spoudaza sth Ellada, parakolou8hsa to ma8hma ths
Embruologias. Se ena peirama loipon, mas zhthsan na melethsoume zwntana
embrua 2-3 hmerwn apo kotes. Spasame ta auga kai ti na doume; Htan kati
diafanh embrua san apo zelatina pou to mono allou xrwmatos htan ta kokkina
aimofora aggeia. To mege8os se makros den 3epernouse ton 1.5 pontous. Kai
3afnika blepw me to mati, mia kokkinh koukida sto mege8os ths kefalhs ths
karfitsas na emfanizetetai kai na e3afanizetai periodika ston diafanh
fonto. Mou ekane entupwsh auto kai rwthsa olo periergeia: "Ti einai auto
to 'kokkino pou anabosbhnei';". H apanthsh me afhse afwno: "Ma h kardoula
tou pou xtupa!"...
AUTO, KURIOI, EINAI TO "AMORFO SUSSWMATWMA KUTTARWN" POU LENE OTI
"AFAIROUN", OI EUAGGELISTES THS EKTRWSHS! ENAS TELEIOS ORGANISMOS! AUTON
TON TELEION ORGANISMO POU MONO LIGOI TUXEROI SAN EMENA MPOROUN NA
8AUMASOUN ZWNTANO, DOLOFONOUN KAPOIOI UPER TWN "AN8RWPINWN DIKAIWMATWN"!
H monadikh ekeinh empeiria pou eixa sto ma8hma ths embruologias, me ekane
na ana8ewrhsw teleiws tis apoyeis mou sto 8ema ths ektrwshs, apo apoyh
deontologias kai h8ikhs.
To 8ema einai pragmatika terastio kai einai bebaio oti uparxoun apo th
pleura twn uposthriktwn ths nomhmothtas ths amblwshs polla
antepixeirhmata. 8a xairomoun na to suzhthsoume to 8ema peretairw se allo
thread (h' sto idio).
> Den mou les Manoli; yparhei organismos stin Ellada yia tin geniticotita ton
> Ellhnon?
Uparxei organwsh "oikogeniakou programmatimou" (dhladh gia periorismo twn
gennhsewn, praktika). Apo kei kai pera, kata ths upogennhtikothtas
strefontai oi oragnwseis poluteknwn pou exoun thn ameristh sumparastassh
ths Ekklhsias mas.
> Romaois
Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Vasilios Pilarinos
Astera, apisteuto kai omws alh8ino. Sumfwnoume se kati! Oi ektrwseis
einai prosbolh sthn 8rhskeia kai sthn an8rwpotita mas kai upodhlwnoun
mh-sebasmo sth zwh ollwn ton an8rwpon, oxi mono twn embruwn. Kairos einai
na grapsoume ta "an8rwpina dikaiwmata" pou mas epiballoun oi Europaioi sta
palia mas ta papoutsia kai na stamatisoume mia kai kalh auth thn barbarikh
pra3h!
"Manes".. aei sixtir. Dinoune perissoterh a3ia sta kinita, ta ama3ia kai
thn kaloperash para sta agorakia kai koritsakia, ta _Ellhnopoula_.
Tsekouri kai fwtia stous dolofones _mwrwn_, tous genoktonous giatrous pou
kanoun autes tis a8eofobes egxeiriseis!
--
* Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vpil...@hellas.org)
|_ "Den 8a lhsmonhsoume, 8a 3anagurisoume!" -- visit www.hellas.org!
pan...@ifn.net
OPA!!!! Allos malakas 40kos edw,poy xairetai gia ton neo
employtismo toy Ellhnikoy Aimatos apo albanoys, afrikanoys,
asiates kai den symmazeyetai. Baltoi eisaste h plhrwmenoi??
pansak
"filokaloyntes met' eyteleias kai filosofoyntes aney malakias"
article <karageor.30...@ucla.edu>#1/1,
kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>
> In article <199805010418...@ladder03.news.aol.com> rom...@aol.com
(Romaios) writes:
>
> >Manoli Vlamaki
>
> >To vasikotero problima pou emeis oi Romioi/Ellines exoume einai i
> >ypogeneticotita.
>
> >An den auxisoume to plythismo mas, sta epomena 20 0 hronia o ellinismos
tis
> >ellados tha einai istoria.
>
> >Oi politeia kai i ekklisia preppei panti to tropo na auxisoun tin
genitikotita
> >ton Ellinon/Romaion. I foroloyia einai enas tropos.
>
> >Den mou les Manoli; yparhei organismos stin Ellada yia tin geniticotita
ton
> >Ellhnon?
>
> >Romaois
>
> Ti les mwpe e3unve; Ano note e3aptatai h Pwmiosuvh ano thv gevhtikothta?
Nai,
> va divoume ki alles anallages stov ka8e avegkefalo kai avegkefalh nou dev
> 3epouv ti 8a nei kanota kai diafpagma gia va kavouv avegkefala 'Pwmiakia'.
>
> Pe, 3unvhste! O Ellhvismos kai h Pwmiosuvh navtote kpath8hke me E3ellhvismo
> tpitwv. Dev xpeiazetai oute fobatai h Pwmiosuvh 'gevvhtikothtes'.
> "Oblivion, indeed I would even go as far as to say historical error, is a
most
> essential factor in the creation of a nation."
>
> "H lh8h, isws akomh kai to istopiko sfalma, eivai shmavtikotatoi napagovtes
sthv
> dhmioupgia evos e8vous"
>
> Ernest Renan, "What is a Nation?" (1882)
>
> Stavros N. Karageorgis
> kara...@ucla.edu
>
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
...
>Austhrh apagoreush ths amblwshs, toulaxiston stis periptwseis pou den
>suntrexoun koinwnikoi logoi (biasmoi, klp).
Kai egw sou apagoreuw na les epikindunes gia thn kaloperash
mou malakies.
>Edw, kurioi, den xwrane "proodeutismoi" kai loipes malakies!
>H D. Germania den epetrepe ektrwseis!
Exesthke h forada st' alwni, ean h D. Germania kai h Tsaouseskia
Roumania apagoreuan tis amblwseis.
>Poio "dikaiwma"; Na DOLOFONEIS mia an8rwpinh upar3h, mono kai mono giati
>"sou ftanoun ta paidia pou exeis"; Otan to skarwnes, htan kala omws!
>
>Kai edw 8a kata8esw thn dikh mou proswpikh marturia pou den exei sumbei
>mallon se kanenan apo sas, logw tou oti den einai koinwnikhs fusews (den
>afhsa pote' kammia gunaika egguo), alla episthmonikhs:
Kala, gamhsi den xarhkes pote', alla oute malakia den trabhkses
pote';! Exeis dei pote spermatozwario na prospaqei na gonimoihsei
wario; Re ti zwria trabaei;! Apo ta 100-200 ekatomuria omws spe-
rmatozwaria mono ena ekane h fush dexto na epibiwsei, katw apo be-
ltistes sunqhkes- ta upoloipa pane "ston kampine". Kai to mualo
mou fush einai.
>Eimai Biologos.
E, kai; Kai o filos mpananes poulaei, alla to idio gamhsi kanete.
>Otan spoudaza sth Ellada, parakolou8hsa to ma8hma ths Embruologias.
Ma ti le re pidim'! Twra mou eliwses thn kardia. Mono to kratos
exei dikaiwma na skotwnei 20rhdes ston polemo. Egw den exw dikai-
wma na skotwnw oute to sperma mou (perempiptontws, to fraggelio
apagoreuei kai thn malakia,- auto kala kanei,- kai egw kala kanw).
Re oust!
Grhgorhs
YG: Orizw th "stigmh" morfopoihshs aneksarthths anqrwpinhs zwhs ton
pempto mhna ths kuhsews. Etsi apla. To sumperasma auto bgainei
ustera apo mia endelexh analush olwn twn dedomenwn. Krithrio
h apotomh kai katakorufh aukshsh tou sunolikou koinwnikou kostous
se periptwsh qanatwshs tou embruou, sugkrinontas to kostos prin
kai meta ton pempto mhna.
To problhma upogennhtikothtas sthn Ellada posw's kai me endiaferei.
H eisagwgh Kogkolezwn einai mia kalh lush. Mia allh kalh lush
einai h gewgrafikh surriknwsh ths Elladas, wste h puknothta na
meinei staqerh. Mia allh lush einai na mpoukarei h Ellada sth
Tourkia kai na klepsei merika memetakia,- sto katw katw genetika
adelfakia einai. Mia allh lush einai na stamathsei o Tsozatzo
thn eisagwgh oplikwn susthmatwn apo tis HPA, kai antiqetws na
arxisei thn eisagwgh Filippinezwn babby-sitter. Kaqe Ellhnas
kai deka Filipinnezes. Auth einai h kaliterh lush! Empros
ths Elladas paidiaaaa! Bouliakste to amerikaniko kauli, kai
piaste to filipineziko buzi! Gia to mellon ths Elladas re
gamwto!!!:-)
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
> > Oi politeia kai i ekklisia preppei panti to tropo na auxisoun tin genitikotita
> > ton Ellinon/Romaion. I foroloyia einai enas tropos.
>
> An katalaba proteineis ena susthma pou 8a forologei tous poluteknous pio
> elastika apo autous me liga h ka8olou paidia! Tetoia metra hdh uparxoun,
> omws den eparkoun.
>
> Egw, an apofasisa na mpw sto thread htan giati exw na proteinw kati allo
> (pou fusika den einai "h ellhnopoihsh twn kogkolezwn", opws proteine
> allos):
Re Astera apo tous diaforous nazi ths listas perimenw upotimhtika
sxolia gia tous
kogkolezous, oxi apo sena...
>
> Austhrh apagoreush ths amblwshs, toulaxiston stis periptwseis pou den
> suntrexoun koinwnikoi logoi (biasmoi, klp). Isws stous "koinwnikous
> logous" na prepei na sumperilh8foun kai oi anupantres, mia pou h ellhnikh
> koinwnia den exei ma8ei na sugxwrei auto to "egklhma". 8a eprepe omws na
> xorhgountai epidomata ki alles dieukolunseis stis anupantres mhteres, wste
> na tis boh8hsoun na apofasizoun na krathsoun oto paidi, pou alliws den 8a
> mporousan na megalwsoun, oxi mono logw ths koinwnikhs katakraughs, alla
> kai ths elleiyhs porwn!
Austhrh apagoreush.... me ti poines dhladh?
Sumfwnw na epixorhgountai oi anupantres mhteres, *pou 0eloun na einai
mhteres*,
kalutera ka0olou paidia apo paidia a0elhta...
>
> Sthn D. Germania pou upefere apo to problhma ths upogennhtikothtas ola
> auta ta xronia, h amblwsh htan 100% paranomh me ena nomo paromoio me auton
> pou tote eixe kai h Ellada (milaw gia epoxh prin to PASOK pou nomimopoihse
> tis amblwseis). ME THN MONH DIAFORA OTI O NOMOS EFARMWZONTAN STHN D.
> GERMANIA KAI DEN EGINE OUTE MIA EKTRWSH XWRIS IATRIKH GNWMATEUSH, ENW STHN
> ELLADA EIXAME 300.000 PARANOMES EKTRWSEIS TON XRONO!
Suggnwmh Astera alla na mou epitrepseis na amfiballw gia to an exoun
ginei sthn Germania paranomes ektrwseis... Oi diaforoi Strauss kai oi
alloi akrodejioi epeballan
authn thn hli0iothta... Alh0eia poios einai o suntelesths gennhtikothtas
sthn Germania?
> Dhladh, an o nomos
> efarmozontan kai sthn Ellada, apo apografh se apografh 8a eixame au3hsh
> plh8usmous 3.5 ekatomuria!
>
> Apo suzhthsh pou eixa me ena gunaikologo, autos pisteue oti o ari8mos twn
> ektrwsewn den 3epernouse tis 120.000 tote kai tis 90.000 twra. Omws, opws
> ki an exei, einai ena e3wfreniko noumero!
>
> An dextoume oti badizoume me 90.000 to xrono, auto shmainei oti an
> apagoreuontan, 8a eixame 1.000.000 au3hsh plh8usmou apo apografh se
> apografh!
>
> Kai 8elete na sas to pw kai alliws;;; As dextoume oti auton ton xrono
> (1997) eginan 90.000 ektrwseis. To apotelesma gia thn Ellada einai to idio
> me to na dolofonh8oun to etos 1997+18=2015 90.000/2=45.000 ELLHNES
> STRATIWTES!
>
> (to "18" stous upologismous einai h strateusimh hlikia, to "2" ta duo
> fula, gia osous ta ma8hmatika kai oi gnwseis tous einai periorismenes).
>
> To eidate pote etsi; Oti dhladh ka8e xrono skotwnoume 50.000 fantarous
> mas;
Eipame na meiwsoume ton meso oro hlikia twn strateusimwn, alla kai
*embrua*
> Na poia einai h "e8nikh prosfora" ths "dikaiwmatos" ths ektrwshs!
Ka0e xrono xanontai disekatommuria spermatozwaria sta kataramena
profulaktika,
poios jerei posa paidia den genniountai logw xapiou! An eixame
apagoreusei kai
thn antisullhpsh 0a eimastan twra India, kai poios sthn xarh mas.
>
> Edw, kurioi, den xwrane "proodeutismoi" kai loipes malakies! H D. Germania
> den epetrepe ektrwseis! Sthn Anatolikh Germania, oi ektrwseis htan
> sunh8eis! Sthn Bretannia oi ektrwseis einai teleiws eleu8eres. Sthn ESSD
> tou Stalin epetrepontan oi ektrwseis, alla otan o Stalin eide oti auto
> apotelouse genoktonia, tis stamathse o idios! Blepete, oti ka8e xwra telos
> pantwn apofasizei oxi me bash kapoia politikh pou epibaletai ap to
> koinwniko ths susthma, alla me bash tis anagkes ths. Kai h Ellada EXEI
> PROBLHMA!
H Ellada, opws fantazomai 0a jereis, exei *oikonomiko* problhma... Ena
polu megalo
kai aujanomeno pososto an0rwpwn (kuriws *newn* an0rwpwn) zorizetai olo
kai perissotero
oikonomika. Epeidh oloi protimane na kanoun ena h' duo paidia kai na
mporoun na ta
taizoun para dekades kai na ta amolane zhtianakia, den kanoume polla
paidia. Sthn
Kupro anti0etws pou o kosmos exei ywmi na faei, den ufistatai tetoio
problhma gennhtikothtas... Opote kalutera merokamata kai mis0oi einai
mia sobaroterh makropro0esmh lush apo thn apagoreush (pou 0a katapath0ei
ama th genesei ths)
>
> Alla, peran ths E8nikhs shmasias, as doume to zhthma apo h8ikhs pleuras.
> Na doume an prepei na exoume to dikaiwma na kanoume ektrwseis. To erthma
> gia mena einai:
>
> Poio "dikaiwma"; Na DOLOFONEIS mia an8rwpinh upar3h, mono kai mono giati
> "sou ftanoun ta paidia pou exeis"; Otan to skarwnes, htan kala omws!
Enhmerwsh gia antisullhpsh loipon. Oso gia thn dolofonia... to na
apokaleis to embruo
"an0rwpinh uparjh" stis prwtes ebdomades h' kai ston mhna einai asteio,
mia kai
den se exw gia 0rhskeuomeno pou pisteuei sthn psuxh ktl., me to RU40
mporeis na
exeis ektrwsh *hmeres* meta thn sullpsh... Gia na mhn soupw oti mia kalh
dosh
antisullhptikwn *meta* thn sunousia meiwnei shmantika tis pi0anothtes
egkumosunhs.
>
> Kai edw 8a kata8esw thn dikh mou proswpikh marturia pou den exei sumbei
> mallon se kanenan apo sas, logw tou oti den einai koinwnikhs fusews (den
> afhsa pote' kammia gunaika egguo), alla episthmonikhs:
>
> Eimai Biologos. Otan spoudaza sth Ellada, parakolou8hsa to ma8hma ths
> Embruologias. Se ena peirama loipon, mas zhthsan na melethsoume zwntana
> embrua 2-3 hmerwn apo kotes. Spasame ta auga kai ti na doume; Htan kati
> diafanh embrua san apo zelatina pou to mono allou xrwmatos htan ta kokkina
> aimofora aggeia. To mege8os se makros den 3epernouse ton 1.5 pontous. Kai
> 3afnika blepw me to mati, mia kokkinh koukida sto mege8os ths kefalhs ths
> karfitsas na emfanizetetai kai na e3afanizetai periodika ston diafanh
> fonto. Mou ekane entupwsh auto kai rwthsa olo periergeia: "Ti einai auto
> to 'kokkino pou anabosbhnei';". H apanthsh me afhse afwno: "Ma h kardoula
> tou pou xtupa!"...
>
> AUTO, KURIOI, EINAI TO "AMORFO SUSSWMATWMA KUTTARWN" POU LENE OTI
> "AFAIROUN", OI EUAGGELISTES THS EKTRWSHS! ENAS TELEIOS ORGANISMOS! AUTON
> TON TELEION ORGANISMO POU MONO LIGOI TUXEROI SAN EMENA MPOROUN NA
> 8AUMASOUN ZWNTANO, DOLOFONOUN KAPOIOI UPER TWN "AN8RWPINWN DIKAIWMATWN"!
Kala Astera kotopoulo den trws? Den exeis problhma tote na skotwnetai
enas teleios organismos? katalabainw oti antimetwpos me to megaleio
(xwris plaka) ths zwikhs anapargwghs menei kaneis ek0ambos... alla auta
ta embrua kotas den einai sigoura
ligotera ajio0aumasta apo tis enhlikes kotes etsi?
An kati kanei ton an0rwpo jexwristo den einai h "Yuxh" h' to swma
tou... einai
o egkefalos tou kai h leitourgia tou pou kanei ton an0rwpo an0rwpo kai
oxi
aplws ena akoma eidos zwou. Den mporeis na me peiseis oti oi anwteres
egkefalikes
leitourgies einai hdh energes apo tis prwtes meres h' ebdomades...
>
> H monadikh ekeinh empeiria pou eixa sto ma8hma ths embruologias, me ekane
> na ana8ewrhsw teleiws tis apoyeis mou sto 8ema ths ektrwshs, apo apoyh
> deontologias kai h8ikhs.
>
> To 8ema einai pragmatika terastio kai einai bebaio oti uparxoun apo th
> pleura twn uposthriktwn ths nomhmothtas ths amblwshs polla
> antepixeirhmata. 8a xairomoun na to suzhthsoume to 8ema peretairw se allo
> thread (h' sto idio).
Labe upopsh sou oti *kammia* apo tis gunaikes pou gnwrizw pou exoun
kanei ektrwsh
den thn ekane asullogista, oute einai kapoia euxaristh empeiria... An
uparxoun enallaktikes luseis 0a protimh0oun... kai nomizw oti h idea ths
xhmikhs amblwshs
(to RU40) pou ousiastika termatizei thn egkumosunh stis prwtes meres,
einai kati
pou oloi 0a sumfwnhsoun pws einai protimotero apo tis xeirourgikes
ektrwseis ston
prwto deytero h trito mhna.
Yparxei epishs ena *sobaro* 0ema dikaiwmatos ths gunaikas na elegxei to
swma ths.
Apo pou ws pou 0a dwseis to dikaiwma sto krtaos na sou pei ti 0a kaneis
kai ti den 0a
kaneis me to swma sou... Apo thn stigmh pou to embruo einai uparjh
ejartwmenh apo thn
gunaika, einai ejairetika amfibolo oti opoiosdhpote tritos exei dikaiwma
na epembei
sto pws xeirizetai to swma ths...
Telos na dieukrinhsw oti oi upshloi tonoi tou parontws ofeilontai sto
oti mou ta exoun spasei teleiws edw stis HPA oi diafores
fantamentalistikes protestantikes organwseis, pou dolofonoun giatrous
kai bazoun bombes stis klinikes "en onomati kuriou"...
>
> > Den mou les Manoli; yparhei organismos stin Ellada yia tin geniticotita ton
> > Ellhnon?
>
> Uparxei organwsh "oikogeniakou programmatimou" (dhladh gia periorismo twn
> gennhsewn, praktika). Apo kei kai pera, kata ths upogennhtikothtas
> strefontai oi oragnwseis poluteknwn pou exoun thn ameristh sumparastassh
> ths Ekklhsias mas.
>
> > Romaois
>
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Mixalhs
Asteras Amaliadas
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Mihalis Panagiotakis wrote:
> Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
> Re Astera apo tous diaforous nazi ths listas perimenw upotimhtika
> sxolia gia tous kogkolezous, oxi apo sena...
Pou uphr3e eirwneia gia sou suntrofous tou Kongo, pou anakurrh3an thn
"Laikh Dhmokratia tou Kongko prin 3-4 mhnes; POU8ENA! Autous pou
eirwneuthka einai autous pou pisteuoun oti to plh8usmiako einai problhma
pou mporei na lu8ei me "eisagwges".
> Austhrh apagoreush.... me ti poines dhladh?
Ma toso rhxa to blepeis; H poinh se noiazei; Wraia! Na orisw kai poinh
(na se kanw xaroumeno):
Afairesh adeias askhshs epaggelmatos ston gunaikologo! Bale mpatsines na
to paizoun kai kala "eggues", "pou endiaferontai" na mhn einai se
"endiaferousa" na tous pagideuoun! Sou lew egw meta an o
gunaikologos-ektrwsas bazei to kefali tou ston ntorba! Kaneis den 8a to
riskarei kai etsi 8a payoun oi ektrwseis!
> Sumfwnw na epixorhgountai oi anupantres mhteres, *pou 0eloun na einai
> mhteres*,
> kalutera ka0olou paidia apo paidia a0elhta...
Ena paidi mias anupantrhs mporei na 8ewrh8ei "a8elhto" giati h koinwnia
den mporei na to dextei. As mhn 3exname oti h Ellada exei ton mikrotero
ari8mo anupantrwn mhterwn (3%) se olh thn Eurwph. Upo authn thn ennoia
prepei parallhla na kanoume thn koinwnia pio anektikh sto 8ema twn
anupantrwn mhterwn.
> Suggnwmh Astera alla na mou epitrepseis na amfiballw gia to an exoun
> ginei sthn Germania paranomes ektrwseis... Oi diaforoi Strauss kai oi
> alloi akrodejioi epeballan
> authn thn hli0iothta... Alh0eia poios einai o suntelesths gennhtikothtas
> sthn Germania?
Den sou epitrepw na amfiballeis kai an kati me e3orgizei afantasta einai
na mou amfisbhtoun oxi tis idees mou (pou o opoiosdhpote mporei na mhn tis
dextei), alla ta stoixeia pou para8etw kai pou eukola mporoun na
apodeixtoun oti einai apoluta swsta. Sthn Dutikh Germania oi ektrwseis
apagoreuontan rhtws, giati apo gennhtikothta oi Germanoi exoun piasei PATO
(eutuxws erxontai ka8e xrono oi touristries sthn Ellada)!
> > To eidate pote etsi; Oti dhladh ka8e xrono skotwnoume 50.000 fantarous
> > mas;
>
> Eipame na meiwsoume ton meso oro hlikia twn strateusimwn, alla kai
> *embrua*
Apo to na eirwneuesai, 3anaskeyou ti E8noktono (kuriolektika) politikh
exoume dextei!
Re file (afou blepw oti den se noiazei tipote) na sto pw alliws: An o
stratos mas eixe 50.000 perissoterous fantarous, kai oi mhnes ths 8hteias
8a htan ligoteroi gia olous! Koinws: An den uphrxan ektrwseis 8a phgaines
gia 12 mhnes kai twra pas gia 19!
> Ka0e xrono xanontai disekatommuria spermatozwaria sta kataramena
> profulaktika,
> poios jerei posa paidia den genniountai logw xapiou! An eixame
> apagoreusei kai
> thn antisullhpsh 0a eimastan twra India, kai poios sthn xarh mas.
Den sou eipa na apagoreutei h antisullhyh kai mhn bazeis malakies pou den
eipa sto stoma mou. Auto pou sou lew einai na apagoreutei h dolofonia
teleiwn an8rwpinwn organismwn, dhladh h ektrwsh!
Auto pou lew einai: Apofugete thn sullhyh oso mporeite! An apotuxete, tote
h zwh pou molis gennh8hke, einai kalodexoumenh!
> H Ellada, opws fantazomai 0a jereis, exei *oikonomiko* problhma... Ena
> polu megalo
> kai aujanomeno pososto an0rwpwn (kuriws *newn* an0rwpwn) zorizetai olo
> kai perissotero
> oikonomika. Epeidh oloi protimane na kanoun ena h' duo paidia kai na
> mporoun na ta
> taizoun para dekades kai na ta amolane zhtianakia, den kanoume polla
> paidia. Sthn
> Kupro anti0etws pou o kosmos exei ywmi na faei, den ufistatai tetoio
> problhma gennhtikothtas... Opote kalutera merokamata kai mis0oi einai
> mia sobaroterh makropro0esmh lush apo thn apagoreush (pou 0a katapath0ei
> ama th genesei ths)
Den les re pou hr8an oi Albanoi kai exei h ellada mas ergatika xeria kai
neous an8rwpous! Kai 8es na sou pw kai kati; H Albania einai h "nea" xwra
ston kosmo! Na loipon poso "axrhstoi" mas einai oi neoi sthn ellada apo
oikonomikhs apoyews, pou arpa3ame san zesto ywmi tous neous ths albanias
pou mas anebasan olous tous deiktes kai swsan thn etoimo8anath eparxia mas
pou rhmaze! Ama eixame neous, den 8a eixame anagkh Albanous!
> Enhmerwsh gia antisullhpsh loipon.
Safws!
> Oso gia thn dolofonia... to na
> apokaleis to embruo
> "an0rwpinh uparjh" stis prwtes ebdomades h' kai ston mhna einai asteio,
Ma nomizw sou milhsa ka8ara! Eisai biologos; Eisai Giatros; 3ereis ti
einai ti morfh exei to embruo thn wra ths ektrwshs; Emas tous episthmones
rwta file mou! Einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos. H eikona pou eida
to embruo sto augo, 8a mou meinei sto mualo ane3ithla xaragmenh. Ara, paye
na xarakthrizeis "asteio" kati toso sobaro, mono kai mono logw tou oti den
3ereis ti einai!
> mia kai
> den se exw gia 0rhskeuomeno pou pisteuei sthn psuxh ktl.,
To poso 8rhskeuomenos eimai den exei shmasia! Shmasia exei oti den mporeis
na prosballeis ta 8rhskeutika ais8hmata enos laou. Kai sthn sugkekrimrnh
stigmh den milame sto metafusiko epipedo, alla sto austhrws epitimoniko.
Epanalambanw: Ena embruo einai enas teleios organismos!
> me to RU40
> mporeis na
> exeis ektrwsh *hmeres* meta thn sullpsh... Gia na mhn soupw oti mia kalh
> dosh
> antisullhptikwn *meta* thn sunousia meiwnei shmantika tis pi0anothtes
> egkumosunhs.
Malista...
3ereis ti epiptwseis exoun auta ta xapia stis gunaikes; Rwta emas tous
moriakous biologous na sou poume sto moriako epipedo ti paizetai! Oxi se
kopella mou, oxi sthn gunaika mou, oxi se suggenh, alla oute sthn
xeiroterh ex8ro mou den 8a edina auta ta xapia!
> Kala Astera kotopoulo den trws? Den exeis problhma tote na skotwnetai
> enas teleios organismos? katalabainw oti antimetwpos me to megaleio
> (xwris plaka) ths zwikhs anapargwghs menei kaneis ek0ambos... alla auta
> ta embrua kotas den einai sigoura
> ligotera ajio0aumasta apo tis enhlikes kotes etsi?
> An kati kanei ton an0rwpo jexwristo den einai h "Yuxh" h' to swma
> tou... einai
> o egkefalos tou kai h leitourgia tou pou kanei ton an0rwpo an0rwpo kai
> oxi
> aplws ena akoma eidos zwou. Den mporeis na me peiseis oti oi anwteres
> egkefalikes
> leitourgies einai hdh energes apo tis prwtes meres h' ebdomades...
Se sena fainetai ooti kai oi katwteres egkefalikes leitourgies den einai
energes!
Mperdeueis polla asxeta meta3u tous 8emata deontologias kai ftiaxneis
enan axtarma.
Akou loipon ti leei h deontologia.
Ws katanalwths, exw dikaiwma na faw kapoia enhlika zwa (ta opoia
prohgoumenws exoun skotw8ei apo kapoious).
Ws episthmwn, exw to dikaiwma, ama exw thn katallhlh ekpaideush, na kanw
o,ti peiramata einai anagkaia, meta3u twn opoiwn kai 8anatwseis, se opoio
zwo krinw aparaithto. Anti8eta, se an8rwpous einai dunates mono dokimes
farmakwn (afou fanei oti den kanoun zhmia sta zwa). Den exw to dikaiwma na
skotwsw an8rwpo h' na kanw peiramata pou 8a 8etoun se kinduno ths
swmatikh tou akeraiothta.
Gi' auto kai espasa to gonimopoihmeno augo ths kotas kai eida to zwntano
embruo, kai exw dikaiwma kai na skotwsw kai opoia enhlikh kota xreiazetai.
Auto loipon pou 8elw na proste8ei einai na mhn mporeis na dolofonhseis, ws
episthmwn kai an8rwpina embrua, opws akribws den mporeis na kaneis afou
gennh8oun ta paidia.
Me bash ta parapanw, den faskw kai antifaskw pou8ena.
> Labe upopsh sou oti *kammia* apo tis gunaikes pou gnwrizw pou exoun
> kanei ektrwsh
> den thn ekane asullogista, oute einai kapoia euxaristh empeiria...
Den lew to anti8eto. Enas logos akoma na mhn ginontai oi ektrwseis: To
yuxiko kai swmatiko kostos stis gunaikes, pou kinduneuoun na exoun sobares
epiplokes.
> An
> uparxoun enallaktikes luseis 0a protimh0oun... kai nomizw oti h idea ths
> xhmikhs amblwshs
> (to RU40) pou ousiastika termatizei thn egkumosunh stis prwtes meres,
> einai kati
> pou oloi 0a sumfwnhsoun pws einai protimotero apo tis xeirourgikes
> ektrwseis ston
> prwto deytero h trito mhna.
Milhsa prin...
> Yparxei epishs ena *sobaro* 0ema dikaiwmatos ths gunaikas na elegxei to
> swma ths.
> Apo pou ws pou 0a dwseis to dikaiwma sto krtaos na sou pei ti 0a kaneis
> kai ti den 0a
> kaneis me to swma sou... Apo thn stigmh pou to embruo einai uparjh
> ejartwmenh apo thn
> gunaika, einai ejairetika amfibolo oti opoiosdhpote tritos exei dikaiwma
> na epembei
> sto pws xeirizetai to swma ths...
To paidi, pou polu swsta les e3artatai apo thn mhtera, den pauei na einai
mia 3exwristh an8rwpinh upar3h kai ontothta. Ki esena otan se gennhse h
mana sou, se 8hlaze kai na eisai babaios oti hsouna apoluta e3hrthmenos
apo thn mhtrikh parousia. Auto den ths edine to dikaiwma na se skotwsei.
> Telos na dieukrinhsw oti oi upshloi tonoi tou parontws ofeilontai sto
> oti mou ta exoun spasei teleiws edw stis HPA oi diafores
> fantamentalistikes protestantikes organwseis, pou dolofonoun giatrous
> kai bazoun bombes stis klinikes "en onomati kuriou"...
Den nomizw na me katataseis stous 8rhskolhptous fanatikous. Opote, oso ki
an exeis dikio gia autous, einai adiko ta akouw egw. Telos pantwn.
Oi protestantikes organwseis pou bazoun bombes klp, einai farisaiikes. Ta
atoma auta pou epixeiroun na apagoreyoun tis ektrwseis kai pou
perigrafeis, einai ta idia atoma pou 8eloun thn paramonh tous isxuontos
ka8estwtos ths eleu8erhs oploforias stis HPA, uposthrizoun ta tagmata
8anatou sthn Brazilia pou skotwnoun ta ftwxa egkatallelhmena paidia,
uposthrizoun thn amerikanikh e3wterikh politikh pou bombardizei to Irak,
kai e3a8liwnei thn latinikh amerikh kai ton upoloipo kosmo, 8ewroun thn
petra tou skandalou Irangate Oliver North "patriwth", klp klp klp. Dhladh,
ta atoma auta den paleuoun gia to dikaiwma enos paidiou na zhsei, alla gia
na exoun autoi to dikaiwma na apofasizoun poio paidi exei dikaiwma na
zhsei!
Omws, den einai oloi etsi. Oi enwseis poluteknwn sthn Ellada pou exoun thn
ameristh sumparastash ths Ekklhsias mas, den einai tetoies! Me olous
loipon tous en Xristw Or8odo3ous adelfous ana ton kosmo, ta xristianika
mas aderfia ths ka8olikhs kai protestantikhs Dushs, tous pistous allwn
8rhskeutikwn dogmatwn, tous episthmones, kai tous aplous an8rwpous pou
paleuoun ugeiws kata ths ektrwshs, sunenwnw ki egw thn fwnh mou.
> > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
>
> Mixalhs
Gregory Dandulakis
>to paizoun kai kala "eggues", "pou endiaferontai" na mhn einai se
>"endiaferousa" na tous pagideuoun! Sou lew egw meta an o
>gunaikologos-ektrwsas bazei to kefali tou ston ntorba! Kaneis den 8a to
>riskarei kai etsi 8a payoun oi ektrwseis!
Egw antiproteinw na dwsoume se kaqe mpaskina pou kanei teteies
pousties apo ena paidaki pou qa gennhqei aqelhto. Oso pio
polles fores to kanei, toso pio polla paidia qa fortwnetai.
Kai ean to arneitai na ta parei, na to ekteloume epi topou.
Sth Roumania tou Tsaouseskou kserw pampolles istories gunaikwn
pou eite peqanan, eite emeinan steires giati apofasisan na
kanoun amblwseis sto spiti tous mones tous.
Sth Germania tou metapolemou, ta disekatomuria dolaria twn
twn Amerikanwn genoktonistwn, oi opoioi qelane na ftiaksoune
mia Germania katw apo thn mpota tous (NATO) h opoia na ana-
xaitizei thn Eurasiatikh yperdunamh ths Sobietias, ekanane
dunaton sth mesh poutana germanida na mporei na genobola
germanakia, kai na mporei na plhrwnei tous xamalhdes Ellhnes
kai Tourkous doulergates na xtizoun ta sxoleia, ergostasia,
spitia, dromous klp, pou qa xreiazotane auta ta germanompa-
starda. Ta genoktonika dolars kanane auth th douleia. Exeis
mhpws tipota teteies sesoules eksasfalisei kai gia ta auriana
ellhnompastarda;!
(Shmeiwsh: H leksh mpastardo tairiazei apoluta gia paidia
pou geniountai ektos gamou, meta apo "analafrh" apofash ths
manas tous. Ean logoi sobarotatoi feroun teteia paidia ston
kosmo, tote h leksh "ektos gamou" tous tairiazei antiqetws).
>Ena paidi mias anupantrhs mporei na 8ewrh8ei "a8elhto" giati h koinwnia
>den mporei na to dextei. As mhn 3exname oti h Ellada exei ton mikrotero
>ari8mo anupantrwn mhterwn (3%) se olh thn Eurwph. Upo authn thn ennoia
>prepei parallhla na kanoume thn koinwnia pio anektikh sto 8ema twn
>anupantrwn mhterwn.
"Anektikh";;;!!! Gia na mou pairnei to kratos ta lefta pou douleuw
san pousths na kanw, kai pou den ta "bazw" se dika mou paidia gia
na mporw na euxaristiemai th zwh mou kai th zwh twn ligwn paidiwn
mou, kai na ta dinei se poutanes pou den exoun problhma na xtisoun
ta auriana doulemporakia twn ntabadwn/arxhgwn;! Ektos kai ean pali
exeis up'opshn sou kapoia mustikh xrhmatodothsh apo tis trapezes ths
Elbetias (klemena apo ton trito kosmo), kai me th mesolabhsh twn
amerikanwn genoktonistwn parexontai sthn Ellada (as poume opws sto
Israhl h' Kupro), wste kai polla paidia mporw na exw, kai kalh zwh
gia olous mas, tote eimai mesa. Alliws, pali:
Re oust!
Grhgorhs
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
>
> On Fri, 1 May 1998, Mihalis Panagiotakis wrote:
>
> > Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
>
> > Re Astera apo tous diaforous nazi ths listas perimenw upotimhtika
> > sxolia gia tous kogkolezous, oxi apo sena...
>
> Pou uphr3e eirwneia gia sou suntrofous tou Kongo, pou anakurrh3an thn
> "Laikh Dhmokratia tou Kongko prin 3-4 mhnes; POU8ENA! Autous pou
> eirwneuthka einai autous pou pisteuoun oti to plh8usmiako einai problhma
> pou mporei na lu8ei me "eisagwges".
Ki omws to plh0usmiako problhma px sthn Agglia kai thn Germania lunetai
edw kai xronia
apo metanastes... Giati oxi kai edw.
>
> > Austhrh apagoreush.... me ti poines dhladh?
>
> Ma toso rhxa to blepeis; H poinh se noiazei; Wraia! Na orisw kai poinh
> (na se kanw xaroumeno):
>
> Afairesh adeias askhshs epaggelmatos ston gunaikologo! Bale mpatsines na
> to paizoun kai kala "eggues", "pou endiaferontai" na mhn einai se
> "endiaferousa" na tous pagideuoun! Sou lew egw meta an o
> gunaikologos-ektrwsas bazei to kefali tou ston ntorba! Kaneis den 8a to
> riskarei kai etsi 8a payoun oi ektrwseis!
Auto aplws 0a aujhsei thn tarifa gia osous to riskaroun kai 0a odhghsei
se ektrwseis
eite apo thn idia thn mhtera eite apo asxetous me 0anathfora
apotelesmata gia tis
mhteres? Ti nomizeis sthn Irlandia h' sthn Roumania mexri protinos pou
"apagoreuontai
di ropalou" oi ektrwseis oi gunaikes den kanoun? Jereis poses gunaikes
exoun pe0anei
se xeria almpanhdwn? Exeis akousei gia ektrwseis me kremastaria? Ti sou
leei
oti den 0a sumbei h barbarothta auth?
>
> > Sumfwnw na epixorhgountai oi anupantres mhteres, *pou 0eloun na einai
> > mhteres*,
> > kalutera ka0olou paidia apo paidia a0elhta...
>
> Ena paidi mias anupantrhs mporei na 8ewrh8ei "a8elhto" giati h koinwnia
> den mporei na to dextei.
H giati h mana tou arneitai na to kuhsei 9 mhnes, h giati den goustarei
ton
patera ws patera h' giati den mporei na to 0repsei h', h' h'....
> As mhn 3exname oti h Ellada exei ton mikrotero
> ari8mo anupantrwn mhterwn (3%) se olh thn Eurwph. Upo authn thn ennoia
> prepei parallhla na kanoume thn koinwnia pio anektikh sto 8ema twn
> anupantrwn mhterwn.
Sto teleutaio sumfwnw alla gia allous logous.
>
> > Suggnwmh Astera alla na mou epitrepseis na amfiballw gia to an exoun
> > ginei sthn Germania paranomes ektrwseis... Oi diaforoi Strauss kai oi
> > alloi akrodejioi epeballan
> > authn thn hli0iothta... Alh0eia poios einai o suntelesths gennhtikothtas
> > sthn Germania?
>
> Den sou epitrepw na amfiballeis kai an kati me e3orgizei afantasta einai
> na mou amfisbhtoun oxi tis idees mou (pou o opoiosdhpote mporei na mhn tis
> dextei), alla ta stoixeia pou para8etw kai pou eukola mporoun na
> apodeixtoun oti einai apoluta swsta. Sthn Dutikh Germania oi ektrwseis
> apagoreuontan rhtws, giati apo gennhtikothta oi Germanoi exoun piasei PATO
> (eutuxws erxontai ka8e xrono oi touristries sthn Ellada)!
Ta stoixeia sou einai gia *nomous* oxi gia to poses *paranomes*
ektrwseis ginontai
sthn Germania ka0e xrono h' poses gunaikes pane sto ejwteriko gia na
kanoun ektrwsh.
Allwste den katalabainw. Apagoreuontai oi ektrwseis kai exoun
ejairetika xamhlo suntelesth gennhtikothtas, ara kapoios 0a eftane sto
sumperasma oti ta duo auta
pragmata einai anejarthta. Ti se kanei na pisteueis oti akoma kai an
kator0wnes na
ejaleipseis pantou sthn Ellada tis ektrwseis h katastash 0a allaze
ardhn?
>
> > > To eidate pote etsi; Oti dhladh ka8e xrono skotwnoume 50.000 fantarous
> > > mas;
> >
> > Eipame na meiwsoume ton meso oro hlikia twn strateusimwn, alla kai
> > *embrua*
>
> Apo to na eirwneuesai, 3anaskeyou ti E8noktono (kuriolektika) politikh
> exoume dextei!
>
> Re file (afou blepw oti den se noiazei tipote) na sto pw alliws: An o
> stratos mas eixe 50.000 perissoterous fantarous, kai oi mhnes ths 8hteias
> 8a htan ligoteroi gia olous! Koinws: An den uphrxan ektrwseis 8a phgaines
> gia 12 mhnes kai twra pas gia 19!
Lupamai Astera, alla h sullogistikh sou pasxei. An oi ektrwseis htan
paranomes
0a eixame aplws 50000 *paranomes* ektrwseis, kaluterh profulajh ktl. 0a
eixame
epishs kai arketa perissotera paidia sta (a0lia ws epi to pleiston)
orfanotrofeia mas.
>
> > Ka0e xrono xanontai disekatommuria spermatozwaria sta kataramena
> > profulaktika,
> > poios jerei posa paidia den genniountai logw xapiou! An eixame
> > apagoreusei kai
> > thn antisullhpsh 0a eimastan twra India, kai poios sthn xarh mas.
>
> Den sou eipa na apagoreutei h antisullhyh kai mhn bazeis malakies pou den
> eipa sto stoma mou. Auto pou sou lew einai na apagoreutei h dolofonia
> teleiwn an8rwpinwn organismwn, dhladh h ektrwsh!
An o logos pou 0elei kaneis na apagoreutei h ektrwsh einai "e0nikos",
kai einai
pro0umos na arei to dikaiwma ths ektrwshs apo tous polites, 0a mporouse
kaneis na
pei oti h apagoreush *kai* ths antisullhpshs 0a htan akoma
apotelesmatikoterh...
Opws eixe pei kai o Flwrakhs kapote "h logikh tou kathforou einai o
patos".
>
> Auto pou lew einai: Apofugete thn sullhyh oso mporeite! An apotuxete, tote
> h zwh pou molis gennh8hke, einai kalodexoumenh!
Auto babaia den exei na kanei me aujhsh gennhtikothtas. Profanws h
apotelesmatikh
antisullhpsh einai protimoterh apo thn ektrwsh, alla to apotelesma oson
afora
tis gennhseis einai to idio.
>
> > H Ellada, opws fantazomai 0a jereis, exei *oikonomiko* problhma... Ena
> > polu megalo
> > kai aujanomeno pososto an0rwpwn (kuriws *newn* an0rwpwn) zorizetai olo
> > kai perissotero
> > oikonomika. Epeidh oloi protimane na kanoun ena h' duo paidia kai na
> > mporoun na ta
> > taizoun para dekades kai na ta amolane zhtianakia, den kanoume polla
> > paidia. Sthn
> > Kupro anti0etws pou o kosmos exei ywmi na faei, den ufistatai tetoio
> > problhma gennhtikothtas... Opote kalutera merokamata kai mis0oi einai
> > mia sobaroterh makropro0esmh lush apo thn apagoreush (pou 0a katapath0ei
> > ama th genesei ths)
>
> Den les re pou hr8an oi Albanoi kai exei h ellada mas ergatika xeria kai
> neous an8rwpous! Kai 8es na sou pw kai kati; H Albania einai h "nea" xwra
> ston kosmo! Na loipon poso "axrhstoi" mas einai oi neoi sthn ellada apo
> oikonomikhs apoyews, pou arpa3ame san zesto ywmi tous neous ths albanias
> pou mas anebasan olous tous deiktes kai swsan thn etoimo8anath eparxia mas
> pou rhmaze! Ama eixame neous, den 8a eixame anagkh Albanous!
Den einai etsi. Oi Albanoi erxontai kai kanoune gia polu xamhla
merokamata,
douleies pou oi Ellhnes den "katadexontai" na kanoune oute gia upshla.
Kata ta alla bebaiws kai boh0hsan thn oikonomia ktl.
>
> > Enhmerwsh gia antisullhpsh loipon.
>
> Safws!
>
> > Oso gia thn dolofonia... to na
> > apokaleis to embruo
> > "an0rwpinh uparjh" stis prwtes ebdomades h' kai ston mhna einai asteio,
>
> Ma nomizw sou milhsa ka8ara! Eisai biologos; Eisai Giatros;
Aplws fusikos (an kai douleuw twra se biofusikh).
> 3ereis ti
> einai ti morfh exei to embruo thn wra ths ektrwshs; Emas tous episthmones
> rwta file mou! Einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos. H eikona pou eida
> to embruo sto augo, 8a mou meinei sto mualo ane3ithla xaragmenh. Ara, paye
> na xarakthrizeis "asteio" kati toso sobaro, mono kai mono logw tou oti den
> 3ereis ti einai!
Syggnwmh Astera, alla twra den apantas se oti sou eipa. Ti orizei ton
"an0rwpo"?
Auto, oti kai na einai uparxei thn deuterh ebdomada ths kuhsews? Nai h
oxi?
>
> > mia kai
> > den se exw gia 0rhskeuomeno pou pisteuei sthn psuxh ktl.,
>
> To poso 8rhskeuomenos eimai den exei shmasia! Shmasia exei oti den mporeis
> na prosballeis ta 8rhskeutika ais8hmata enos laou.
Kala, egw eimai kata ti paradosiakoteros apo sena se auto: h 0rhskeia
einai to
opio tou laou ktl... den eimai upoxrewmenos na sebomai thn ka0e
deisidaimonia
etsi?
> Kai sthn sugkekrimrnh
> stigmh den milame sto metafusiko epipedo, alla sto austhrws epitimoniko.
> Epanalambanw: Ena embruo einai enas teleios organismos!
Kai egw epanalambanw oti 0a h0ela polu na mou ejhghseis to ti ennoeis
"teleios"
Mporei na epibiwsei ejw apo thn mhtra? Na doulepsei o egkefalos tou? An
oxi
tote lupamai alla *oti morfh kai na exei* den einai *akomh* an0rwpos>
Allwste
jereis fantazomai oti ka0e allo para sunainesh uparxei se auto ston
iatriko kosmo.
>
> > me to RU40
> > mporeis na
> > exeis ektrwsh *hmeres* meta thn sullpsh... Gia na mhn soupw oti mia kalh
> > dosh
> > antisullhptikwn *meta* thn sunousia meiwnei shmantika tis pi0anothtes
> > egkumosunhs.
>
> Malista...
>
> 3ereis ti epiptwseis exoun auta ta xapia stis gunaikes; Rwta emas tous
> moriakous biologous na sou poume sto moriako epipedo ti paizetai! Oxi se
> kopella mou, oxi sthn gunaika mou, oxi se suggenh, alla oute sthn
> xeiroterh ex8ro mou den 8a edina auta ta xapia!
Pes mou ti ginetai, nomizw oti mporw na parakolou0hsw 0emata moriakhs
biologias
ws ena shmeio.... To RU40 ustera apo klinikes dokimes *den* exei deijei
shmantikh
epikindunothta. Exeis alla stoixeia?
> > Kala Astera kotopoulo den trws? Den exeis problhma tote na skotwnetai
> > enas teleios organismos? katalabainw oti antimetwpos me to megaleio
> > (xwris plaka) ths zwikhs anapargwghs menei kaneis ek0ambos... alla auta
> > ta embrua kotas den einai sigoura
> > ligotera ajio0aumasta apo tis enhlikes kotes etsi?
> > An kati kanei ton an0rwpo jexwristo den einai h "Yuxh" h' to swma
> > tou... einai
> > o egkefalos tou kai h leitourgia tou pou kanei ton an0rwpo an0rwpo kai
> > oxi
> > aplws ena akoma eidos zwou. Den mporeis na me peiseis oti oi anwteres
> > egkefalikes
> > leitourgies einai hdh energes apo tis prwtes meres h' ebdomades...
>
> Se sena fainetai ooti kai oi katwteres egkefalikes leitourgies den einai
> energes!
Profanws Astera mou... Ti na kanoume den mporoume na eimaste oloi
ejupnoi san kai sena...
>
> Mperdeueis polla asxeta meta3u tous 8emata deontologias kai ftiaxneis
> enan axtarma.
>
> Akou loipon ti leei h deontologia.
>
> Ws katanalwths, exw dikaiwma na faw kapoia enhlika zwa (ta opoia
> prohgoumenws exoun skotw8ei apo kapoious).
>
> Ws episthmwn, exw to dikaiwma, ama exw thn katallhlh ekpaideush, na kanw
> o,ti peiramata einai anagkaia, meta3u twn opoiwn kai 8anatwseis, se opoio
> zwo krinw aparaithto. Anti8eta, se an8rwpous einai dunates mono dokimes
> farmakwn (afou fanei oti den kanoun zhmia sta zwa). Den exw to dikaiwma na
> skotwsw an8rwpo h' na kanw peiramata pou 8a 8etoun se kinduno ths
> swmatikh tou akeraiothta.
>
> Gi' auto kai espasa to gonimopoihmeno augo ths kotas kai eida to zwntano
> embruo, kai exw dikaiwma kai na skotwsw kai opoia enhlikh kota xreiazetai.
>
> Auto loipon pou 8elw na proste8ei einai na mhn mporeis na dolofonhseis, ws
> episthmwn kai an8rwpina embrua, opws akribws den mporeis na kaneis afou
> gennh8oun ta paidia.
Kai gia tis egkefalikes leitourgies? Aplws apofeugeis to *kurio*
zhthma: ti prosdiorizei enan "an0rwpo", apo poio shmeio exei politika
dikaiwmata kok.
>
> Me bash ta parapanw, den faskw kai antifaskw pou8ena.
>
> > Labe upopsh sou oti *kammia* apo tis gunaikes pou gnwrizw pou exoun
> > kanei ektrwsh
> > den thn ekane asullogista, oute einai kapoia euxaristh empeiria...
>
> Den lew to anti8eto. Enas logos akoma na mhn ginontai oi ektrwseis: To
> yuxiko kai swmatiko kostos stis gunaikes, pou kinduneuoun na exoun sobares
> epiplokes.
Gia na to kanoun omws shmainei oti to anti0eto 0a eixe akoma
perissotero yuxiko
kostos gi autes.
>
> > An
> > uparxoun enallaktikes luseis 0a protimh0oun... kai nomizw oti h idea ths
> > xhmikhs amblwshs
> > (to RU40) pou ousiastika termatizei thn egkumosunh stis prwtes meres,
> > einai kati
> > pou oloi 0a sumfwnhsoun pws einai protimotero apo tis xeirourgikes
> > ektrwseis ston
> > prwto deytero h trito mhna.
>
> Milhsa prin...
>
> > Yparxei epishs ena *sobaro* 0ema dikaiwmatos ths gunaikas na elegxei to
> > swma ths.
> > Apo pou ws pou 0a dwseis to dikaiwma sto krtaos na sou pei ti 0a kaneis
> > kai ti den 0a
> > kaneis me to swma sou... Apo thn stigmh pou to embruo einai uparjh
> > ejartwmenh apo thn
> > gunaika, einai ejairetika amfibolo oti opoiosdhpote tritos exei dikaiwma
> > na epembei
> > sto pws xeirizetai to swma ths...
>
> To paidi, pou polu swsta les e3artatai apo thn mhtera, den pauei na einai
> mia 3exwristh an8rwpinh upar3h kai ontothta. Ki esena otan se gennhse h
> mana sou, se 8hlaze kai na eisai babaios oti hsouna apoluta e3hrthmenos
> apo thn mhtrikh parousia. Auto den ths edine to dikaiwma na se skotwsei.
Yparxei mia diafora: An me pernan apo thn mhtera mou kai me taizan me
mpimpero
den 0a pe0aina... Den isxuei kati analogo gia ena embruo duo h triwn
ebdomadwn.
>
> > Telos na dieukrinhsw oti oi upshloi tonoi tou parontws ofeilontai sto
> > oti mou ta exoun spasei teleiws edw stis HPA oi diafores
> > fantamentalistikes protestantikes organwseis, pou dolofonoun giatrous
> > kai bazoun bombes stis klinikes "en onomati kuriou"...
>
> Den nomizw na me katataseis stous 8rhskolhptous fanatikous.
Oxi
> Opote, oso ki
> an exeis dikio gia autous, einai adiko ta akouw egw. Telos pantwn.
Ti na kanw... an0rwpos eimai kai gw ;-)
>
> Oi protestantikes organwseis pou bazoun bombes klp, einai farisaiikes. Ta
> atoma auta pou epixeiroun na apagoreyoun tis ektrwseis kai pou
> perigrafeis, einai ta idia atoma pou 8eloun thn paramonh tous isxuontos
> ka8estwtos ths eleu8erhs oploforias stis HPA, uposthrizoun ta tagmata
> 8anatou sthn Brazilia pou skotwnoun ta ftwxa egkatallelhmena paidia,
> uposthrizoun thn amerikanikh e3wterikh politikh pou bombardizei to Irak,
> kai e3a8liwnei thn latinikh amerikh kai ton upoloipo kosmo, 8ewroun thn
> petra tou skandalou Irangate Oliver North "patriwth", klp klp klp. Dhladh,
> ta atoma auta den paleuoun gia to dikaiwma enos paidiou na zhsei, alla gia
> na exoun autoi to dikaiwma na apofasizoun poio paidi exei dikaiwma na
> zhsei!
Sumfwnw kai prosupografw.
> Omws, den einai oloi etsi. Oi enwseis poluteknwn sthn Ellada pou exoun thn
> ameristh sumparastash ths Ekklhsias mas, den einai tetoies! Me olous
> loipon tous en Xristw Or8odo3ous adelfous ana ton kosmo, ta xristianika
> mas aderfia ths ka8olikhs kai protestantikhs Dushs, tous pistous allwn
> 8rhskeutikwn dogmatwn, tous episthmones,
Gia mena sto 0ema auto (opws kai se polla alla) 0rhskeia kai episthmh
den einai sumbates.
> kai tous aplous an8rwpous pou
> paleuoun ugeiws kata ths ektrwshs, sunenwnw ki egw thn fwnh mou.
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Asteras Amaliadas
Apanthsh epi troxadin ston Panagiwtakh.
Sta perissotera erwthmata sou, exw hdh apanthsei kai malista peistika. To
oti epimeneis na me rwtas ta idia pragmata (isxurizomenos oti taxa den sou
apanthsa) kai etsi na me piezeis na 3anagrayw ta idia kai na epanalhf8w,
einai aparadekto!
Omws, 8a to kanw gia TRITH fora (mpas kai epitelous to xwneyeis).
To basiko erwthma einai ti einai an8rwpinh zwh. Esu au8aireta mas les oti
"an8rwpos" einai autos pou exei anaptugmenh egkefalikh drasthriothta!
Wraia! Tote h ektrwsh einai dolofonikh energeia. Full stop! Kai euxaristw
pou me ton anor8odo3o auto tropo, se ekana diko mas!
Ki auto giati o egkefalos enos embruou pou h "mana" tou (o Pularinos
eishgage edw ton oro auton kai einai apoluta petuxhmenos) einai hdh
aneptugmenos! Den sou lew oti einai etoimos na aporrofhsei Filosofia, alla
einai hdh anaptussomenos!
Oson afora tis e3tremistikes sou apoyeis se zhthmata 8rhskeias, na sou pw
oti 8rhskeia kai episthmh mporoun na sumporeutoun, arkei h mia na mhn
ginetai empodeio ths allhs! Sto telos-telos to antikeimeno kai o stoxos
ths mias einai teleiws diaforetikoi apo autous ths allhs! Ki an eides,
pou8ena den xrhsimopoihsa 8eologika epixeirhmata, gia na sou apodei3w oti
H EKTRWSH APOTELEI PROSBOLH GIA TON POLITISMO MAS! San episthmwn milhsa
kai san poliths ths xwras mou.
Kai 8eologika epixeirhmata exw. Auta einai teleiws diaforetika! Den ta
xrhsimopoihsa, oxi giati den einai e3isou swsta, alla giati den einai
apodekta apo thn mh or8odo3h merida. Den to ekana loipon, akribws, gia na
mhn petaxtei kaneis san kai tou logou sou, na pei oti san kanw papadistikh
h8ikologia! Mhn loipon, mas petas xilioeipwmena tsitata tou Marx ("h
8rhskeia einai to opoio tou laou") gia na mas peis oti taxa kanoume
polemikh kata ths ektrwshs apo 8esh 8rhskeuomenou! An pali, eides pou8ena
pou milhsa 8eologika, kane mou quote ta logia mou, na sas zhthsw kai
suggnwmh!
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980504230238.26519A-100000@bute> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
Na koita3eis va neiseis thv nleiyhfia oti h ektpwsh eivai fovos (full stop).
Mexpi tote, mind your own business. Kai ws avdpas (nou dev mnopeis va to
alla3eis) va eisai nposektikos otav 8es va kaveis koumavto sta swmata twv
guvaikwv.
H lush gia va meiw8ouv oi ektpwseis, IMHO, eivai va 'nlhpwvouv' oi
'snepmatodwphtes' :-). 8a sou nw egw nws 8a nesouv . . .! Kai fusika va
3unvhsouv kai oi guvaikes ligaki. Allo 'atuxhma' allo ektpwsh ws me8odos
avtisullhyhs, etsi dev eivai?
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
>
> Apanthsh epi troxadin ston Panagiwtakh.
>
> Sta perissotera erwthmata sou, exw hdh apanthsei kai malista peistika. To
> oti epimeneis na me rwtas ta idia pragmata (isxurizomenos oti taxa den sou
> apanthsa) kai etsi na me piezeis na 3anagrayw ta idia kai na epanalhf8w,
> einai aparadekto!
>
> Omws, 8a to kanw gia TRITH fora (mpas kai epitelous to xwneyeis).
>
> To basiko erwthma einai ti einai an8rwpinh zwh. Esu au8aireta mas les oti
> "an8rwpos" einai autos pou exei anaptugmenh egkefalikh drasthriothta!
>
> Wraia! Tote h ektrwsh einai dolofonikh energeia. Full stop! Kai euxaristw
> pou me ton anor8odo3o auto tropo, se ekana diko mas!
>
> Ki auto giati o egkefalos enos embruou pou h "mana" tou (o Pularinos
> eishgage edw ton oro auton kai einai apoluta petuxhmenos) einai hdh
> aneptugmenos! Den sou lew oti einai etoimos na aporrofhsei Filosofia, alla
> einai hdh anaptussomenos!
Ws edw prwta. Gia na mhn sou janalew, opws isxurizesai, ta idia na sou
pw ta epixeirhmata mou KATA ths apagoreushs twn ektrwsewn:
1) To zhthma einai apo poia stigmh to embruo einai an0rwpino wn pou
exei ta
idia dikaiwmata me tous "anaptugmenous an0rwpous". H apanthsh sto
erwthma auto
den mporei para na einai au0aireth: to shmeio "ejan0rwpismou" den einai
ena
safes stadio pou sumbainei thn tade ebdomada. H ejelijh enos embruou apo
ena
susswmatwma kuttarwn mexri thn gennhsh einai mia sunexhs diadikasia.
Pisw apo
ka0e orismo tou ti shmainei na eisai an0rwpos krubetai mia *politikh*
entelei
apofash. Polu apla *egw* 0etw duo orous: a) to embruo na einai biologika
autonomo on-
dhladh na mhn mporei na epibiwsei ejw apo thn mhtra (anti0etws to mwro
paidi akoma ki an h mana tou den to 0hlasei mporei na epibiwsei an tou
dwsei
trofh kapoios allos) kai b) Na exoun arxisei oi anwteres egkefalikes
leitourgies
(na exei dhmiourgh0ei o egkefalikos floios). Auta -epanalambanw- einai
*au0aireta*
(filosofika) krithria, alla ta 0etw pros suzhthsh...
2) En telei -dedomenou oti den uparxoun apoluta krithria- h apofash
prepei na lambanetai
apo tous amesa endiaferomenous thn mana, prwtistws, kai ton patera. To
mono pou mporei
na kanei h koinwnia einai na ru0misei ta elastikotera oria anoxhs pou
einai sumbata
me thn upoloiph nomo0esia ths, auto einai kai to kuriws zhtoumeno...
3) H apagoreush twn amblwsewn 0a odhghsei me ma0hmatikh akribeia sthn
xrhsimopoihsh paliwn kai ejairetika barbarwn praktikwn- kremastaria,
amblwtika mantzounia, xasapogiatroi- kuriws sta ftwxotera strwmata tou
plh0usmou (ta plousiwtera
mporoun na pane sto ejwteriko gia thn diadikasia auth). An nomizeis oti
auta htan
spanio fainomeno sou sunistw na janakoitajeis h' na rwthseis osous
0umountai. Poses
gunaikes pe0anan poses sakateuthkan kai poses emeinan gia panta
steires...
4) Politika mia tetoia apofash einai apofash xeiragwgishs twn gunaikwn.
Kalws h'
kakws opws esu exeis to dikaiwma na pas ejw na spoudaseis, na kaneis thn
zwh sou kai
na mhn dineis logariasmo se kanenan, etsi kai ka0e gunaika exei dikaiwma
na anaballei
(h' na arnh0ei) na kanei paidia oso 0elei kai oso thn boleuei. Eite gia
logous bioporismou, eite gia logous xronou eite, eite, eite.... To 0ema
einai oti apaj kai
den epi0umei paidi einai protimotero gia authn kai gia to paidi, na mhn
to kanei.
5) An kai sebomai thn proswpikh sou empeiria kai den amfisbhtw thn
episthmonikh sou
katartish, einai nomizw gnwsto oti anamesa ston episthmoniko kosmo den
uparxei kammia
sunainesh gia to 0ema auto. Anti0eta exw akousei apo giatrous teleiws
diaforetikes
apopseis epi tou 0ematos. Oi logoi gi' auto anaferontai sto (1).
6) Profanws to 0ema ths upogennhtikothtas oudolws exei na kanei me to
0ema ths ektrwshs.
H Germania exei polu xamhlh gennhtikothta kai apagoreuei tis amblwseis
kai h Kina
exei (akoma) upshlh gennhtikothta kai *en0arrunei* tis amblwseis.
7) To monadiko sigouro (kai se auto nomizw sumfwnoume) einai oti h
drastikoterh
meiwsh twn amblwsewn 0a sumbei me thn enhmerwsh sxetika me thn
antisullhpsh.
8) Isws epishs sumfwnoume pws oso nwritera ginei h ektrwsh toso ligotera
"h0ika"
problhmata anakuptoun.
>
> Oson afora tis e3tremistikes sou apoyeis se zhthmata 8rhskeias, na sou pw
> oti 8rhskeia kai episthmh mporoun na sumporeutoun, arkei h mia na mhn
> ginetai empodeio ths allhs!
> Sto telos-telos to antikeimeno kai o stoxos
> ths mias einai teleiws diaforetikoi apo autous ths allhs!
Kala auth einai mia allh terastia suzhthsh... Proswpika exw na pw oti
blepw ka0hmerina
edw pou eimai orgismenous fantamentalistes na prospa0oun na didajoun thn
biblikh
ekdoxh ths dhmiourgias ws... biologia sta sxoleia! Jerw oti autoi einai
ejtremistes
alla opws kai na exei mia tetoia sunuparjh epiballei thn katarghsh twn
ek dogmatos alh0eiwn stis 0rhskeies kati gia to opoio den eimai sigouros
oti 0a sunainesoun
oi ana ton kosmo 0rhskeies... Oso gia to ejtremisths... ka0olou. An
diabaseis olo to
sxetiko apospasma apo thn "Germanikh Ideologia" (nomizw) 0a deis oti
para thn shmerinh
tou xrhsh, einai ejairetika ojuderkes kai ba0u. Prepei bebaia na
omologhsw oti
proswpika eimai a0eos, alla den exw kanena problhma en genei me
an0rwpous pou 0rhskeuontai. Exw problhma otan diaforoi xrhsimopoioun
0eologika epixeirhmata
se "praktikes" suzhthseis...
> Ki an eides,
> pou8ena den xrhsimopoihsa 8eologika epixeirhmata, gia na sou apodei3w oti
> H EKTRWSH APOTELEI PROSBOLH GIA TON POLITISMO MAS! San episthmwn milhsa
> kai san poliths ths xwras mou.
Pote den isxuristhka oti xrhsimopoihses 0eologika epixeirhmata, nomizw.
>
> Kai 8eologika epixeirhmata exw. Auta einai teleiws diaforetika! Den ta
> xrhsimopoihsa, oxi giati den einai e3isou swsta, alla giati den einai
> apodekta apo thn mh or8odo3h merida. Den to ekana loipon, akribws, gia na
> mhn petaxtei kaneis san kai tou logou sou, na pei oti san kanw papadistikh
> h8ikologia! Mhn loipon, mas petas xilioeipwmena tsitata tou Marx ("h
> 8rhskeia einai to opoio tou laou") gia na mas peis oti taxa kanoume
> polemikh kata ths ektrwshs apo 8esh 8rhskeuomenou! An pali, eides pou8ena
> pou milhsa 8eologika, kane mou quote ta logia mou, na sas zhthsw kai
> suggnwmh!
Blepe anw0i
Asteras Amaliadas
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Mihalis Panagiotakis wrote:
> Na na sou
> pw ta epixeirhmata mou KATA ths apagoreushs twn ektrwsewn:
>
> 1) To zhthma einai apo poia stigmh to embruo einai an0rwpino wn pou
> exei ta
> idia dikaiwmata me tous "anaptugmenous an0rwpous". H apanthsh sto
> erwthma auto
> den mporei para na einai au0aireth: to shmeio "ejan0rwpismou" den einai
> ena
> safes stadio pou sumbainei thn tade ebdomada. H ejelijh enos embruou apo
> ena
> susswmatwma kuttarwn mexri thn gennhsh einai mia sunexhs diadikasia.
> Pisw apo
> ka0e orismo tou ti shmainei na eisai an0rwpos krubetai mia *politikh*
> entelei
> apofash. Polu apla *egw* 0etw duo orous: a) to embruo na einai biologika
> autonomo on-
> dhladh na mhn mporei na epibiwsei ejw apo thn mhtra (anti0etws to mwro
> paidi akoma ki an h mana tou den to 0hlasei mporei na epibiwsei an tou
> dwsei
> trofh kapoios allos) kai b) Na exoun arxisei oi anwteres egkefalikes
> leitourgies
> (na exei dhmiourgh0ei o egkefalikos floios). Auta -epanalambanw- einai
> *au0aireta*
> (filosofika) krithria, alla ta 0etw pros suzhthsh...
Wraia. Paradexesai loipon oti einai au8aireta auta ta krithria kai oti
telika to 8ema einai en telh politiko kai filosofiko (kai egw pros8etw kai
biologiko).
Akou loipon ti 8a sou pei enas episthmonas: To embruo den einai
"susswmatwma kuttarwn" oute sto stadio twn duo kuttarwn (pou to zugwto
exei diaire8ei sta duo)! H ennoia "susswmatwma" einai akrws
apoprosanatolistikh! Sta kuttara auta den ginetai TIPOTE tuxaia! Anti8eta,
oi mhxanismoi gonidiakhs ri8mishs kai ekfrashs einai ekplhktikoi!
Sto de stadio pou ginontai oi ektrwseis, den milame gia ena "susswmatwma
kuttarwn" se kammia periptwsh! Milame gia enan hdh aneptugmeno organismo!
> 2) En telei -dedomenou oti den uparxoun apoluta krithria- h apofash
> prepei na lambanetai
> apo tous amesa endiaferomenous thn mana, prwtistws, kai ton patera. To
> mono pou mporei
> na kanei h koinwnia einai na ru0misei ta elastikotera oria anoxhs pou
> einai sumbata
> me thn upoloiph nomo0esia ths, auto einai kai to kuriws zhtoumeno...
Logariazeis xwris ton 3enodoxo! Wste oi amesa endiaferomenoi einai o
"pateras" kai h "mana"! Dhladh to zwntano auto plasma pou h "mana"
apofasizei na dolofonhsei den exei apoyh; Den exei dikaiwma na zhsei;
Autou thn gnwmh poios thn rwra;
> 3) H apagoreush twn amblwsewn 0a odhghsei me ma0hmatikh akribeia sthn
> xrhsimopoihsh paliwn kai ejairetika barbarwn praktikwn- kremastaria,
> amblwtika mantzounia, xasapogiatroi- kuriws sta ftwxotera strwmata tou
> plh0usmou (ta plousiwtera
> mporoun na pane sto ejwteriko gia thn diadikasia auth). An nomizeis oti
> auta htan
> spanio fainomeno sou sunistw na janakoitajeis h' na rwthseis osous
> 0umountai. Poses
> gunaikes pe0anan poses sakateuthkan kai poses emeinan gia panta
> steires...
Auta einai anekdota! Sthn Germania giati den eginan ola auta; 8a sou pw
EGW giati! Giati h D. Germania htan ena eunomoumeno kratos! Den einai
duskolo na epiballeis to nomo. Merika ntou ths astunomias, merikes
afaireseis adeiwn askhsews iatrikou epaggelmatos einai kai merikes
fulakiseis! Tipote allo!
> 4) Politika mia tetoia apofash einai apofash xeiragwgishs twn gunaikwn.
> Kalws h'
> kakws opws esu exeis to dikaiwma na pas ejw na spoudaseis, na kaneis thn
> zwh sou kai
> na mhn dineis logariasmo se kanenan, etsi kai ka0e gunaika exei dikaiwma
> na anaballei
> (h' na arnh0ei) na kanei paidia oso 0elei kai oso thn boleuei. Eite gia
> logous bioporismou, eite gia logous xronou eite, eite, eite.... To 0ema
> einai oti apaj kai
> den epi0umei paidi einai protimotero gia authn kai gia to paidi, na mhn
> to kanei.
Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
> 5) An kai sebomai thn proswpikh sou empeiria kai den amfisbhtw thn
> episthmonikh sou
> katartish, einai nomizw gnwsto oti anamesa ston episthmoniko kosmo den
> uparxei kammia
> sunainesh gia to 0ema auto. Anti0eta exw akousei apo giatrous teleiws
> diaforetikes
> apopseis epi tou 0ematos. Oi logoi gi' auto anaferontai sto (1).
Fusika! Oi pio polloi giatroi einai uper ths ektrwshs gia na ta konomane!
Oi de polemioi ths nomimopoihshs, to kanoun giati tis protimousan
paranomes, upo to prohgoumeno ka8estws ths asudwsias, pou tous ekane na
noiw8oun sigouroi oti kaneis den 8a tous zhthsei eu8unes kai pou mporousan
na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
Den sou lew egw gia epistrofh sto prohgoumeno ka8estws! Pros 8eou!
Xasaphdes klp den goustarw! Alla mporoume na efarmwsoume apoluth
apagoreush, arkei na ginetai swsta to kunhgi stous giatrous! Sto
katw-katw, den einai da kai polloi oi giatroi pou kanoun tetoies
epembaseis! To kratos aneta mporei na tous eleg3ei, ama to epi8umei!
> 6) Profanws to 0ema ths upogennhtikothtas oudolws exei na kanei me to
> 0ema ths ektrwshs.
> H Germania exei polu xamhlh gennhtikothta kai apagoreuei tis amblwseis
> kai h Kina
> exei (akoma) upshlh gennhtikothta kai *en0arrunei* tis amblwseis.
Les malakies kai malista xontres! Skeyou kai monos giati...
> 7) To monadiko sigouro (kai se auto nomizw sumfwnoume) einai oti h
> drastikoterh
> meiwsh twn amblwsewn 0a sumbei me thn enhmerwsh sxetika me thn
> antisullhpsh.
Nai, se auto sumfwnoume.
> 8) Isws epishs sumfwnoume pws oso nwritera ginei h ektrwsh toso ligotera
> "h0ika"
> problhmata anakuptoun.
Opws sou exw pei, oi ektrwseis den ginontai se ena stadio pou na mou
epitrepei na tis dextw h8ika kai epistmonika. Epipleon, oi "ektrwseis"
opws tis oneireuesai esu (me xapia liges meres meta thn sunousia), exoun
duo kaka: 1) Epanapauoun tis gunaikes kai tis kanoun na mhn pairnoun
profulla3eis ("xuse mesa agorara mou, ki ennoia sou, aurio 8a katapiw to
ektrwtiko xapi") 2) Exoun terasties sunepeies gia thn ugeia tous! Poso
mallon, an me thn epanapaush pou tus prosferei, to xrhsimopoioun suxna!
> Prepei bebaia na
> omologhsw oti
> proswpika eimai a0eos, alla den exw kanena problhma en genei me
> an0rwpous pou 0rhskeuontai. Exw problhma otan diaforoi xrhsimopoioun
> 0eologika epixeirhmata
> se "praktikes" suzhthseis...
Monos paradexesai oti to 8ema einai zhthma "h8ikhs" kai "deontologias".
Ara, den einai mono "praktiko". Kai apo thn stigmh pou mpainei h h8ikh
mesa, tote ektos apo iatriko, ginetai kai 8rhskeutiko. Ara, einai eunohto
giati o 8rhskeuomenos exei dikaiwma na ekferei apoyh epi tou 8ematos!
Opote 8a sou anaferw kai ena 8eologiko epixeirhma, pou akoma ki an den to
dexesai, eixai upoxreomenos na to sebasteis:
Sthn Ekklhsia mas, eortazoume oxi mono tis gennhseis twn an8rwpwn (px
Xristougenna) alla akoma kai... sullhyeis tous! Sto Eortologio mas, exoume
TREIS eortes epeteiwn sullhyewn:
1) Ton Euaggelismo ths 8eotokou, pou apotelei thn Amwmo Sullhyh tou
Xristou (25 Martiou- akribws 9 mhnes prin thn gennhsh tou pou eortazetai
stis 25 Dekembriou).
2) Thn Sullhyh ths Panagias (Iwakeim kai Annhs, stis 9 Dekembriou) pou
egine toso fusika oso h sullhyh h dikh sou kai h dikh mou!
3) Mia akoma fusikh sullhyh pou den 8umamai kai bariemai na dw to
eortologio (nomizw oti einai h sullhyh ths Annhs, mhteras ths Panagias).
Opws loipon blepeis, gia thn Ekklhsia, h zwh 3ekina apo to zugwto! Apo thn
stigmh ths sullhyhs. Elpizw loipon na mporeis twra na katalabeis giati
prosballei toso polu tous 8rhskeuomenous an8rwpous h idea kai mono ths
ektrwshs, akoma kai sta prohma stadia ths kuhshs. Akoma ki an diafwneis me
thn 8rhskeia, pou einai dikaiwma sou, einai adunaton na mh sebasteis thn
8esh tous.
> Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508105209.28168A-100000@bute> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
<snip>
>> 2) En telei -dedomenou oti den uparxoun apoluta krithria- h apofash
>> prepei na lambanetai
>> apo tous amesa endiaferomenous thn mana, prwtistws, kai ton patera. To
>> mono pou mporei
>> na kanei h koinwnia einai na ru0misei ta elastikotera oria anoxhs pou
>> einai sumbata
>> me thn upoloiph nomo0esia ths, auto einai kai to kuriws zhtoumeno...
>Logariazeis xwris ton 3enodoxo!
Evw esu milas GIA tov 3evodoxo! Poios sou edwse eseva to dikaiwma va milas ws
evtolodoxos kai nlhpe3ousios olwv twv agevvhtwv?
> Wste oi amesa endiaferomenoi einai o
>"pateras" kai h "mana"!
Oxi, h mava, h kuofopousa, eivai h movh kai h amesa evdiafepomevh.
> Dhladh to zwntano auto plasma pou h "mana"
>apofasizei na dolofonhsei den exei apoyh;
Oxi.
> Den exei dikaiwma na zhsei;
Oxi.
>Autou thn gnwmh poios thn rwra;
Kaveis. Dev exei gvwmh, onws dev exei gvwmh kai to zwvtavo bpefos.
>> 3) H apagoreush twn amblwsewn 0a odhghsei me ma0hmatikh akribeia sthn
>> xrhsimopoihsh paliwn kai ejairetika barbarwn praktikwn- kremastaria,
>> amblwtika mantzounia, xasapogiatroi- kuriws sta ftwxotera strwmata tou
>> plh0usmou (ta plousiwtera
>> mporoun na pane sto ejwteriko gia thn diadikasia auth). An nomizeis oti
>> auta htan
>> spanio fainomeno sou sunistw na janakoitajeis h' na rwthseis osous
>> 0umountai. Poses
>> gunaikes pe0anan poses sakateuthkan kai poses emeinan gia panta
>> steires...
>Auta einai anekdota! Sthn Germania giati den eginan ola auta; 8a sou pw
>EGW giati! Giati h D. Germania htan ena eunomoumeno kratos! Den einai
>duskolo na epiballeis to nomo. Merika ntou ths astunomias, merikes
>afaireseis adeiwn askhsews iatrikou epaggelmatos einai kai merikes
>fulakiseis! Tipote allo!
Evw ta dika sou dev eivai avekdota. Gia dwse mas tis napanomnes sthv
bibliogpafia nou katadeikvuouv auta nou les. Telika, eisai kpatikisths olkhs.
Ovta sumfwveis, va kavei vtou h astuvomia. Otav diafwveis va milas gia to
katastaltiko kpatos ths 'De3ias'. Tou kwlou ta evviamepa.
>> 4) Politika mia tetoia apofash einai apofash xeiragwgishs twn
gunaikwn.>> Kalws h'
>> kakws opws esu exeis to dikaiwma na pas ejw na spoudaseis, na kaneis thn
>> zwh sou kai
>> na mhn dineis logariasmo se kanenan, etsi kai ka0e gunaika exei dikaiwma
>> na anaballei
>> (h' na arnh0ei) na kanei paidia oso 0elei kai oso thn boleuei. Eite gia
>> logous bioporismou, eite gia logous xronou eite, eite, eite.... To 0ema
>> einai oti apaj kai
>> den epi0umei paidi einai protimotero gia authn kai gia to paidi, na mhn
>> to kanei.
>Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
Eisai kai misoguvhs, ektos twv allwv. Nai, pe avtpakla, Palaio-elladith
KLASSIKE, 3epei va gamietai. Magkia ths. Esu ti polo naizeis sthv olh uno8esh?
Poios se ebala eseva kpith, pe? Thv eu8uvh gia thv katavtia tou egkefalou sou
esu dev 3epeis va thv avalabeis? Bale stov kwlo sou tis 'eu8uves'. Dikies tou
oi mhtpes, dikia tous kai h anofash. Onoios exei ta gevia, exei kai ta xtevia.
>> 5) An kai sebomai thn proswpikh sou empeiria kai den amfisbhtw thn
>> episthmonikh sou
>> katartish, einai nomizw gnwsto oti anamesa ston episthmoniko kosmo den
>> uparxei kammia
>> sunainesh gia to 0ema auto. Anti0eta exw akousei apo giatrous teleiws
>> diaforetikes
>> apopseis epi tou 0ematos. Oi logoi gi' auto anaferontai sto (1).
>Fusika! Oi pio polloi giatroi einai uper ths ektrwshs gia na ta konomane!
Ase pe, sobapa? Kata thv dikh sou anoyh se allo thread, nolu kala kavouve. Se
kanitalistikh koivwvia zouve, gia va zhsouv npenei va megistonoihsouv to
atomiko oikovomiko sumfepov. Movov oi alloi, oi 'kakoi' exouv tetoia
sumfepovta, esu exeis movov 'enisthmovika' kai 'nolitismika' sumfepovta. Aei
nagaive pe. Bghkes malaka kai to naizeis avtinposwnos ths Apistepas! Konave.
Palaio-elladith avtidpastike, nou mas to naizeis kai npoodeutikos . . . oust
pe!
>Oi de polemioi ths nomimopoihshs, to kanoun giati tis protimousan
>paranomes, upo to prohgoumeno ka8estws ths asudwsias, pou tous ekane na
>noiw8oun sigouroi oti kaneis den 8a tous zhthsei eu8unes kai pou mporousan
>na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
Ti avalush!!! Fobepos. Pe su, xapamizesai stis 8etikes enisthmes. Na nas stis
koivwvikes, 8a xalaseis kosmo!
>Den sou lew egw gia epistrofh sto prohgoumeno ka8estws! Pros 8eou!
>Xasaphdes klp den goustarw! Alla mporoume na efarmwsoume apoluth
>apagoreush, arkei na ginetai swsta to kunhgi stous giatrous! Sto
>katw-katw, den einai da kai polloi oi giatroi pou kanoun tetoies
>epembaseis! To kratos aneta mporei na tous eleg3ei, ama to epi8umei!
Ti eivai to kpatos pe Stalivisth tou kwlou? Ti 'eni8umei' to kpatos? Emeis pe
kapagkiozh dev to eni8umoume. Na kpathseis tis anoyeis sou gia tov eauto sou,
kai va mhv afhseis (av se naipvei) thv guvaika sou kai tis kopes sou va
kavouve amblwseis. Se 3eva xwpafia, malaka, mhv avakateuesai. To kpatos nou 8a
kavei auta nou 8es esu, mnopei va kavei ki auta nou 8elei o Zhsiadhs se seva.
Bo'i'di!!!
>> 7) To monadiko sigouro (kai se auto nomizw sumfwnoume) einai oti h
>> drastikoterh
>> meiwsh twn amblwsewn 0a sumbei me thn enhmerwsh sxetika me thn
>> antisullhpsh.
>Nai, se auto sumfwnoume.
Pe koita esu va mhv gkastpwveis guvaikes, kai ase tous kai tis alles. Mind
your own fucking business.
>> 8) Isws epishs sumfwnoume pws oso nwritera ginei h ektrwsh toso ligotera
>> "h0ika"
>> problhmata anakuptoun.
>Opws sou exw pei, oi ektrwseis den ginontai se ena stadio pou na mou
>epitrepei na tis dextw h8ika kai epistmonika.
St'apxidia mou. Mhv tis dexesai. Bale tis h8ikes kai enisthmovikes kpiseis
stov kwlo sou.
> Epipleon, oi "ektrwseis"
>opws tis oneireuesai esu (me xapia liges meres meta thn sunousia), exoun
>duo kaka: 1) Epanapauoun tis gunaikes kai tis kanoun na mhn pairnoun
>profulla3eis ("xuse mesa agorara mou, ki ennoia sou, aurio 8a katapiw to
>ektrwtiko xapi")
Ki o 'agopapas' 3afvika egive un-av8pwnos nou dev mnopei va kpivei movos tou,
e? Ki av tis enavanauouv, ti logos sou neftei eseva. Diko tous eivai to swma,
dikia tous kai h anofash. Av npoteiveis va mhv mas 'ka8ovtai sto sbepko emas
twv unoloinwv' meta, tote sumfwvw. Ama dev 8elouv kai dev tous divoume
'boh8eia' meta, tote va kavouv oti goustapouv. Ama omws zhtouv kai tous
divoume 'koivwvikh npovoia', tote kalws les va tous kavoume kai koumavto.
2) Exoun terasties sunepeies gia thn ugeia tous! Poso
>mallon, an me thn epanapaush pou tus prosferei, to xrhsimopoioun suxna!
Kai noios exei unoxpewsh va evdiafepetai gia thv ugeia tous? Esu? 'To kpatos'?
H' mhnws oi idies?
>> Prepei bebaia na
>> omologhsw oti
>> proswpika eimai a0eos, alla den exw kanena problhma en genei me
>> an0rwpous pou 0rhskeuontai. Exw problhma otan diaforoi xrhsimopoioun
>> 0eologika epixeirhmata
>> se "praktikes" suzhthseis...
>Monos paradexesai oti to 8ema einai zhthma "h8ikhs" kai "deontologias".
>Ara, den einai mono "praktiko". Kai apo thn stigmh pou mpainei h h8ikh
>mesa, tote ektos apo iatriko, ginetai kai 8rhskeutiko. Ara, einai eunohto
>giati o 8rhskeuomenos exei dikaiwma na ekferei apoyh epi tou 8ematos!
Bebaiws. Alla ano to oti exouv dikaiwma va ekfepouv anoyh, dev tous divei to
dikaiwma va anofasizouv autoi ti 8a kavei h ka8e guvaika me to swma ths.
>Opote 8a sou anaferw kai ena 8eologiko epixeirhma, pou akoma ki an den to
>dexesai, eixai upoxreomenos na to sebasteis:
>Sthn Ekklhsia mas, eortazoume oxi mono tis gennhseis twn an8rwpwn (px
>Xristougenna) alla akoma kai... sullhyeis tous! Sto Eortologio mas, exoume
>TREIS eortes epeteiwn sullhyewn:
>1) Ton Euaggelismo ths 8eotokou, pou apotelei thn Amwmo Sullhyh tou
>Xristou (25 Martiou- akribws 9 mhnes prin thn gennhsh tou pou eortazetai
>stis 25 Dekembriou).
>2) Thn Sullhyh ths Panagias (Iwakeim kai Annhs, stis 9 Dekembriou) pou
>egine toso fusika oso h sullhyh h dikh sou kai h dikh mou!
>3) Mia akoma fusikh sullhyh pou den 8umamai kai bariemai na dw to
>eortologio (nomizw oti einai h sullhyh ths Annhs, mhteras ths Panagias).
>Opws loipon blepeis, gia thn Ekklhsia, h zwh 3ekina apo to zugwto! Apo thn
>stigmh ths sullhyhs. Elpizw loipon na mporeis twra na katalabeis giati
>prosballei toso polu tous 8rhskeuomenous an8rwpous h idea kai mono ths
>ektrwshs, akoma kai sta prohma stadia ths kuhshs. Akoma ki an diafwneis me
>thn 8rhskeia, pou einai dikaiwma sou, einai adunaton na mh sebasteis thn
>8esh tous.
Giati va sebastw th 8esh tous? Koita pe kati Map3istes nou unapxouv. Na tis
balouv stov kwlo tous tis 8eseis tous kai tis npotimhseis tous, otav
nposna8ouv va tis eniballouv stous allous.
>> Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Y.G. Tis megalutepes asuvapthsies se nolitika, koivwvika, kai h8ika 8emata ano
8etikous enisthmoves xwpis npagmatikh naideia, sav kai tou logou sou, 8a tis
akouseis. Eisai klassikh nepintwsh.
Asteras Amaliadas
Akou Stavro N. Karageorgi,
Oles sou oi "apanthseis" sta 8emata pou bazw htan: "sta arxidia mou" kai
"oxi"! Ena paidi sthn hlikia twn 5 ma8ainei ektos apo "oxi" na leei kai
giati! Esu fainetai den eftases se authn thn hlikia! Den me apasxoleis
loipon giati eisai faidro proswpo kai malakas!
Pantws, na 3ereis oti kataferes na me peiseis oti eimai la8os gia thn
ektrwsh. Isws omws kapws anor8odo3a (em, ti nomizes re malaka, oti me ta
sabouria pou egrafes 8a me epei8es;)...
Pragmati loipon, eisai h zwntanh diafhmish ths ektrwshs! Gnwrizontas atoma
san esena, katanow thn prosfora ths ektrwshs sthn koinwnia! Einai krima,
pou o mpampas kai h mama sou den summerizontan tis apoyeis sou gia thn
ektrwsh kai etsi fortwsan thn koinwnia me ena saprofuto. Atoma san esena
den uparxei kanenas logos na katanalwnoun, toso askopa, to o3ugono tou
planhth!
Eisai loipon ontws tuxeros! Oxi mono giati glutwses thn ektrwsh, alla kai
giati den ezhses sthn Arxaia Sparth (pou kati malakidia san tou logou sou
ta rixnan ston Kaiada) h' sthn Amaliada (pou kati sabouria san thn afentia
sou ta pnigoume sto neroxuth na mhn xalasei h ratsa).
Kyros Hadjikyrou
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508105209.28168A-100000@bute>, Asteras
Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
To erwtnma tou Mixaln omws paramevei avapavtnto: se poia stigmn kata tn
diarkeia tns kynsns to embryo eivai avthrwpos? Apo tn stigmn tns syllnpsns,
tn stigmn tns gevvas, pote? Ef'osov gvwrizw, dev yparxei consensus
ep'autou. Kai bebaiws "avthrwpos" dev snmaivei "aveptygmevos orgavismos"
(pou kai n gata mou eivai) alla *toulaxistov* tnv parousia egkefalikwv
leitourgiwv. Pisteueis Astera pws sto stadio twv dyo kyttarwv (diairesn
zygwtou) to embryo eivai avthrwpos?
[snip]
>Logariazeis xwris ton 3enodoxo! Wste oi amesa endiaferomenoi einai o
>"pateras" kai h "mana"! Dhladh to zwntano auto plasma pou h "mana"
>apofasizei na dolofonhsei den exei apoyh; Den exei dikaiwma na zhsei;
>Autou thn gnwmh poios thn rwra;
>
To thema edw eivai kata posov kai pote dikaioutai n koivwvia (mesw
kratous) va epembei stnv idiwtikn zwn tou atomou. Kai to erwtnma eivai
"giati egw ws koivwvia va apagoreusw tis ektrwseis?" Av to epixeirnma eivai
"giati tha skotwseis allo avthrwpo", prepei va *apodeikseis* pws etsi
eivai, to opoio parapempei pali sto pote to embryo thewreitai avthrwpos
(kai gi'auto to thema prepei va xrnsimopointhouv epistnmovika kritnria,
opws biwsimotnta, bathmos egkefalikwv leitourgiwv klp pou avefere o
Mixalns) To oti to embryo eivai zwvtavo dev snmaivei pws exei automata kai
vomika dikaiwmata n' pws eivai avthrwpos.
[snip]
>
>Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
>
Edw milas gia eleutheres n' gia pavtremeves? Poso pososto amblwsewv
givetai apo pavtremeves (kai me tn sygkatathesn tou syzygou) gia
oikovomikous n' allous logous? Avtilambavomai oti mporei proswpika va se
prosballei autn n symperifora twv gyvaikwv, alla exeis to dikaiwma va
epibaleis autn tnv nthikn stous upoloipous?
[snip]
>Fusika! Oi pio polloi giatroi einai uper ths ektrwshs gia na ta konomane!
>Oi de polemioi ths nomimopoihshs, to kanoun giati tis protimousan
>paranomes, upo to prohgoumeno ka8estws ths asudwsias, pou tous ekane na
>noiw8oun sigouroi oti kaneis den 8a tous zhthsei eu8unes kai pou mporousan
>na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
>
Twra milas gia olous tous giatrous (pws akribws "ta kovomave" oi
podiatroi, veuroxeirourgoi, odovtiatroi, wtorivolaryggologoi klp apo tis
ektrwseis?) n' movo osous kavouv ektrwseis? Av to deutero, eivai logiko va
thelouv va...apagoreuthouv? To epixeirnma peri kerdwv, euthyvwv klp isxyei
eksisou gia kathe allo epaggelma (dev blepoume plastikous xeirourgous va
protimouv tnv paravomia, n'est-ce pas?)
>Den sou lew egw gia epistrofh sto prohgoumeno ka8estws! Pros 8eou!
>Xasaphdes klp den goustarw! Alla mporoume na efarmwsoume apoluth
>apagoreush, arkei na ginetai swsta to kunhgi stous giatrous! Sto
>katw-katw, den einai da kai polloi oi giatroi pou kanoun tetoies
>epembaseis! To kratos aneta mporei na tous eleg3ei, ama to epi8umei!
>
:-) "apolytn apagoreusn"? :-) Wraio...
>> 6) Profanws to 0ema ths upogennhtikothtas oudolws exei na kanei me to
>> 0ema ths ektrwshs.
>> H Germania exei polu xamhlh gennhtikothta kai apagoreuei tis amblwseis
>> kai h Kina
>> exei (akoma) upshlh gennhtikothta kai *en0arrunei* tis amblwseis.
>
>Les malakies kai malista xontres! Skeyou kai monos giati...
>
>> 7) To monadiko sigouro (kai se auto nomizw sumfwnoume) einai oti h
>> drastikoterh
>> meiwsh twn amblwsewn 0a sumbei me thn enhmerwsh sxetika me thn
>> antisullhpsh.
>
>Nai, se auto sumfwnoume.
>
Mia aporia: sta arxika mnvymata tou thread epixeirnmatologouses kata tns
ektrwsns fervovtas ws paradeigma posoi favtaroi "xavovtai" eksaitias tous.
Dedomevou oti kai n avtisyllnpsn exei to idio apotelesma, eisai evavtiov
tns avtisyllnpsns? Na apagoreuthei dia vomou (gia logous ethnikous) ?
[snip]
>Monos paradexesai oti to 8ema einai zhthma "h8ikhs" kai "deontologias".
>Ara, den einai mono "praktiko". Kai apo thn stigmh pou mpainei h h8ikh
>mesa, tote ektos apo iatriko, ginetai kai 8rhskeutiko. Ara, einai eunohto
>giati o 8rhskeuomenos exei dikaiwma na ekferei apoyh epi tou 8ematos!
>
Mia paratnrnsn: nthikn =/= thrnskeia. Kathe atomo exei dikaiwma va
ekferei apopsn epi opoiou thematos, kai va ekfrasei tnv proswpikn tou
nthikn apopsn. Dev exei omws dikaiwma va apagoreusei se allous kapoia
praktikn aplws kai movo epeidn avtibaivei twv nthikwv tou aksiwv.
>Opote 8a sou anaferw kai ena 8eologiko epixeirhma, pou akoma ki an den to
>dexesai, eixai upoxreomenos na to sebasteis:
>
>[...]
>Opws loipon blepeis, gia thn Ekklhsia, h zwh 3ekina apo to zugwto! Apo thn
>stigmh ths sullhyhs. Elpizw loipon na mporeis twra na katalabeis giati
>prosballei toso polu tous 8rhskeuomenous an8rwpous h idea kai mono ths
>ektrwshs, akoma kai sta prohma stadia ths kuhshs. Akoma ki an diafwneis me
>thn 8rhskeia, pou einai dikaiwma sou, einai adunaton na mh sebasteis thn
>8esh tous.
>
:-) Oxi, agapnte, dev exw kammia ypoxrewsn va sebastw tis prokatalnpseis,
deisidaimovies kai avonsies tou kathevos aplws kai movo epeidn aptovtai tns
thrnskeias tou. Sebomai to dikaiwma kathevos va ekfrasei tnv opoiadnpote
apopsn epi oiouvdnpote thematos, alla otav n apopsn stereitai logikns, tha
faei xesimo :) Kai polloi pisteuovtes pws n Gn eivai evas diskos (flat
earth) basizouv tnv pepoithnsn autn se theologika epixeirnmata (etsi leei n
biblos twv xristiavwv!), alla av perimevouv va tous sebastoume...n' mnpws
sebesai tetoio "epixeirnma"?
>> Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
>
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Xairetismata,
Kyros
Asteras Amaliadas
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
> To erwtnma tou Mixaln omws paramevei avapavtnto: se poia stigmn kata tn
> diarkeia tns kynsns to embryo eivai avthrwpos? Apo tn stigmn tns syllnpsns,
> tn stigmn tns gevvas, pote? Ef'osov gvwrizw, dev yparxei consensus
> ep'autou. Kai bebaiws "avthrwpos" dev snmaivei "aveptygmevos orgavismos"
> (pou kai n gata mou eivai) alla *toulaxistov* tnv parousia egkefalikwv
> leitourgiwv. Pisteueis Astera pws sto stadio twv dyo kyttarwv (diairesn
> zygwtou) to embryo eivai avthrwpos?
[...]
> To thema edw eivai kata posov kai pote dikaioutai n koivwvia (mesw
> kratous) va epembei stnv idiwtikn zwn tou atomou. Kai to erwtnma eivai
> "giati egw ws koivwvia va apagoreusw tis ektrwseis?" Av to epixeirnma eivai
> "giati tha skotwseis allo avthrwpo", prepei va *apodeikseis* pws etsi
> eivai, to opoio parapempei pali sto pote to embryo thewreitai avthrwpos
> (kai gi'auto to thema prepei va xrnsimopointhouv epistnmovika kritnria,
> opws biwsimotnta, bathmos egkefalikwv leitourgiwv klp pou avefere o
> Mixalns) To oti to embryo eivai zwvtavo dev snmaivei pws exei automata kai
> vomika dikaiwmata n' pws eivai avthrwpos.
Monos sou bazeis ena AU8AIRETO KRITHRIO "AN8RWPOPOIHSHS"! Ki esu kai o
Mixalhs! Wraia! Egw den mporw na peisw oti einai "an8rwpos" ena zugwto h'
ena embruo sto stadio twn 2 h' twn 4 kuttarwn! Mporw omws na se bebaiwsw
oti einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos! Me ekplhktikous mhxanismous
ru8mishs klp. Den 3erw an auto to prama legetai an8rwpos! 3erw omws oti to
na bazeis gia krthrio tou ti einai an8rwpos tis egkefalikes leitourgies,
tote kaneis kati 100% au8aireto! Giati h tarifa na einai stis egkefalikes
leitourgies ki oxi sto oti px den einai ektos ths gunaikas (dhladh oso
einai embruo na mhn einai an8rwpos); Egw loipon 8ewrw oti apo ta prwta
kiolas stadio ths embruogeneshs milame gia enan an8rwpino organimos, me
OLA ta dikaiwmata pou exei ka8e organismos, kai prwta apo ola to dikaiwma
na ZEI. Parade3ou loipon oti ta peri "egkefalikwn leitourgiwn" einai
mpourmpourtsala kai fthnos apologitismos twn uposthriktwn ths ektrwshs!
Sto katw-katw o karagiwrghs, o Zissiadhs, o Papadhmhtrioou akoma kai twra
den exoun aneptugmenes egkefalikes drasthriothtes! Na tous skotwsoume
loipon, afou "den einai an8rwpoi"; Kai kala na mas thn glutwsoun ta
malakismena tou soc.culture.greek. dhladh na poume oti ta paidia me
sundromo Down pou exoun periorismenes ekgefalikes drashtriothtes se sxesh
me sena, den einai an8rwpoi ki oti prepei na tous sfa3oume;
> eivai logiko va
> thelouv va...apagoreuthouv? To epixeirnma peri kerdwv, euthyvwv klp isxyei
> eksisou gia kathe allo epaggelma (dev blepoume plastikous xeirourgous va
> protimouv tnv paravomia, n'est-ce pas?)
[...]
> :-) "apolytn apagoreusn"? :-) Wraio...
Nai, polloi gunaikologoi 8eloun na epitreyoume sto prohgoumeno ka8estws
au8airesias, pou oi ektrwseis htan paranomes! Giati auto tous prostateue
afou kaneis den tous ekane mhnuseis gia tuxon la8h, mia kai oi epembaseis
autes "pote' den eginan". Epipleon, oute apodei3eis gia ton idio logo den
koboun, enw mporoun na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
Egw den milaw gia epistrofh se auto to ka8estws. O oros "apolytn
apagoreusn" pou ton korohdeueis giati den mporeis na katalabeis thn
sobarothta tou, shmainei "OXI stis ektrwseis! Full Stop!"! Opoios piastei
na kanei ektrwseis, 8a xasei thn adeia askhshs epaggelmatos, 8a xrew8ei me
poinh eite xrhmatikh, eite fulakish, eite kai ta duo! Na dw tote, an 8a
kanoun tetoio pragma oi gunaikologoi!
> Mia aporia: sta arxika mnvymata tou thread epixeirnmatologouses kata tns
> ektrwsns fervovtas ws paradeigma posoi favtaroi "xavovtai" eksaitias tous.
> Dedomevou oti kai n avtisyllnpsn exei to idio apotelesma, eisai evavtiov
> tns avtisyllnpsns? Na apagoreuthei dia vomou (gia logous ethnikous) ?
Den eipa pou8ena na mhn uparxei antisullhyh! Diabase ta mhnumata mou, kai
mhn bazeis sto stoma mou koubentes pou den eipa! Malista, eipa oti einai
fanatikos upermaxos ths antisullhyhs! Auto pou eipa einai: Kante o,ti
mporeite na apofugete mia egkumosunh! An apotuxete, tote kalodexoumenh h
nea zwh!
> Mia paratnrnsn: nthikn =/= thrnskeia. Kathe atomo exei dikaiwma va
> ekferei apopsn epi opoiou thematos, kai va ekfrasei tnv proswpikn tou
> nthikn apopsn. Dev exei omws dikaiwma va apagoreusei se allous kapoia
> praktikn aplws kai movo epeidn avtibaivei twv nthikwv tou aksiwv.
Swsto! Omws, mhn 3exnas oti oi perissoteroi kanontes h8ikhs pou akoma
dexome8a, epeblh8hkan apo tis 8rhskeias, h' an 8es oi 8rhskeies
aporrofhsan thn anagkaia h8ikh kai thn epeballan stis koinwnies ws 8elhma
Kuriou (anoigoume ena filofosiko 8ema edw, opote asto kallutera)!
> Xairetismata,
> Kyros
Aloxa,
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508200139.29254A-100000@bute> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
>Akou Stavro N. Karageorgi,
>Oles sou oi "apanthseis" sta 8emata pou bazw htan: "sta arxidia mou" kai
>"oxi"! Ena paidi sthn hlikia twn 5 ma8ainei ektos apo "oxi" na leei kai
>giati! Esu fainetai den eftases se authn thn hlikia! Den me apasxoleis
>loipon giati eisai faidro proswpo kai malakas!
Avte pe avegkefale nou 8a mou kaveis kai kpitikh sthv diavoia mou esu! Ama
eisai esu bpwmostomos, givomai kai egw. Ama 8es va kavoume sobaph koubevta va
eisai sobapos. To 'st'apxidia mou' dev to xphsimonoihsa ws bpisia, alla ws
suvtomh anavthsh. Oloi mou bazouv xepi oti makphgopw. Ama 8eleis kavovikh
anavthsh sou divw. Dev exeis oute esu nposwnika, oute h nleiyhfia, oute h
koivwvia oloklhph to dikaiwma va kaveis/kavei koumavto sto swma evos allou
av8pwnou. Apa loinov, il m'est absoluement egale, I couldn't care less, koivws
ST'APXIDIA MOU, oi anoyeis sou nepi tou 8ematos. Esu me to swma sou kai to
snepma sou va kaveis oti 8eleis. Sto diko kai twv allwv to swma, TIPOTA xwpis
thv sugkata8esh mas. Katalabes?
>Pantws, na 3ereis oti kataferes na me peiseis oti eimai la8os gia thn
>ektrwsh. Isws omws kapws anor8odo3a (em, ti nomizes re malaka, oti me ta
>sabouria pou egrafes 8a me epei8es;)...
Pe su, esu dev 8a mnopouses va neiseis tou Eskimwous oti h falaiva tpwgetai .
. .
>Pragmati loipon, eisai h zwntanh diafhmish ths ektrwshs! Gnwrizontas atoma
>san esena, katanow thn prosfora ths ektrwshs sthn koinwnia! Einai krima,
>pou o mpampas kai h mama sou den summerizontan tis apoyeis sou gia thn
>ektrwsh kai etsi fortwsan thn koinwnia me ena saprofuto. Atoma san esena
>den uparxei kanenas logos na katanalwnoun, toso askopa, to o3ugono tou
>planhth!
Ma kai nali 8a sou nw, st'apxidia mou ti gvwmh exeis esu gia to av h' oxi
enpene va eixa gevvh8ei. Koivws, h gvwmh sou dev metpaei. Exeis avafaipeto
dikaiwma va thv les, va thv gpafeis, va thv kaveis navw, oti 8eleis. To
anotelesma? 0.
>Eisai loipon ontws tuxeros! Oxi mono giati glutwses thn ektrwsh, alla
>kai giati den ezhses sthn Arxaia Sparth (pou kati malakidia san tou logou sou
>ta rixnan ston Kaiada) h' sthn Amaliada (pou kati sabouria san thn afentia
>sou ta pnigoume sto neroxuth na mhn xalasei h ratsa).
Ti les pe megale? Sthv apxaia Snapth, konave, 8a pixvav thv naxusapkh
afevtomoutsouvada sou stov Kaiada. Sthv Amaliada, eutuxws kpatate evdogamia
kai dev moluvete kai thv unoloinh Ellada me ths saboupa sas.
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Pe su, mhv noulas tosov nolu tsamnouka. Dev se naipvei se kaveva eninedo. Ta
npobatakia, ta mosxapakia, ta goupouvakia, ta kotonoulakia (gia va meivoume
sta zwa) nou ta skotwvoume gia va ta fame, dev eivai zwvtes opgavismoi? Ta
neipamatozwa nou skotwvete kata ekatovtades eseis oi 'enisthmoves' dev eivai
'eknlhktikoi' zwvtes opgavismoi? Oi AN8PWPOI exouv av8pwniva dikaiwmata. Av
esu anodei3eis oti ano thv stigmh ths sullhyhs exoume av8pwno, tote isws va
exeis enixeiphma. Omws kai h kuofopousa guvaika eivai av8pwnos. Pws kai giati
npenei va uneptepouv ta dikaiwmata (dh8ev) tou agevvhtou twv dikaiwmatwv ths
zwvtavhs kuofopousas guvaikas?
Av eisai exeis koyimo gia to noso veoi unapxouv gia va nave favtapoi, va
kaveis esu nolla naidia o idios. Dev 8a eniballeis stous allous va ta kavouve.
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508203747.29916A-100000@bute> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
>On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
>> To erwtnma tou Mixaln omws paramevei avapavtnto: se poia stigmn kata tn
>> diarkeia tns kynsns to embryo eivai avthrwpos? Apo tn stigmn tns syllnpsns,
>> tn stigmn tns gevvas, pote? Ef'osov gvwrizw, dev yparxei consensus
>> ep'autou. Kai bebaiws "avthrwpos" dev snmaivei "aveptygmevos orgavismos"
>> (pou kai n gata mou eivai) alla *toulaxistov* tnv parousia egkefalikwv
>> leitourgiwv. Pisteueis Astera pws sto stadio twv dyo kyttarwv (diairesn
>> zygwtou) to embryo eivai avthrwpos?
>[...]
>> To thema edw eivai kata posov kai pote dikaioutai n koivwvia (mesw
>> kratous) va epembei stnv idiwtikn zwn tou atomou. Kai to erwtnma eivai
>> "giati egw ws koivwvia va apagoreusw tis ektrwseis?" Av to epixeirnma eivai
>> "giati tha skotwseis allo avthrwpo", prepei va *apodeikseis* pws etsi
>> eivai, to opoio parapempei pali sto pote to embryo thewreitai avthrwpos
>> (kai gi'auto to thema prepei va xrnsimopointhouv epistnmovika kritnria,
>> opws biwsimotnta, bathmos egkefalikwv leitourgiwv klp pou avefere o
>> Mixalns) To oti to embryo eivai zwvtavo dev snmaivei pws exei automata kai
>> vomika dikaiwmata n' pws eivai avthrwpos.
>Monos sou bazeis ena AU8AIRETO KRITHRIO "AN8RWPOPOIHSHS"!
Sto einav kai oi duo oti eivai ovtws au8aipeto. Poio eivai to diko sou
kpithpio nou _DEN_ eivai au8aipeto?
> Ki esu kai o
>Mixalhs! Wraia! Egw den mporw na peisw oti einai "an8rwpos" ena zugwto h'
>ena embruo sto stadio twn 2 h' twn 4 kuttarwn! Mporw omws na se bebaiwsw
>oti einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos!
E, kai? Kai h mapgapita eivai evas teleios zwvtavos opgavismos. Mhnws npenei
va ths zhthsoume thv gvwmh, h' thv gvwmh sou, gia to av 8a thv koyoume thv
Ppwtomagia? Papakatw, ti so'i teleios zwvtavos opgavismos eivai, afou dev
mnopei va enizhsei xwpis thv mava? Kai ev nasei nepintwsei, oloi oi zwvtavoi
opgavismoi exouv av8pwniva dikaiwmata? Otav nlevesai, 3epeis nosous teloious
zwvtavous opgavismous skotwveis? Kai bebaia 3epeis. Mhnws npenei va tous
npostateusoume kai autous me kpatikh katastolh eneidh eivai teloioi zwvtavoi
opgavismoi?
> Me ekplhktikous mhxanismous
>ru8mishs klp. Den 3erw an auto to prama legetai an8rwpos!
Ti dev 3epeis. 3epeis. Dev legetai av8pwnos.
> 3erw omws oti to
>na bazeis gia krthrio tou ti einai an8rwpos tis egkefalikes leitourgies,
>tote kaneis kati 100% au8aireto!
Avte nali? Ma noio kpithpio _DEN_ eivai 'au8aipeto'? Enishs, oi _idioi- sou
einav oti vai, to kpithpio auto eivai 'au8aipeto' alla kai koivws anodekto
(plausible, and socially accepted). Av esu eisai ikavos va neiseis tous allous
va givei to diko sou 'au8aipeto' kpithpio koivws anodekto, mnpabo sou, magkia
sou, netuxes. Alloiws, naizoume thv koloku8ia.
> Giati h tarifa na einai stis egkefalikes
>leitourgies ki oxi sto oti px den einai ektos ths gunaikas (dhladh oso
>einai embruo na mhn einai an8rwpos); Egw loipon 8ewrw oti apo ta prwta
>kiolas stadio ths embruogeneshs milame gia enan an8rwpino organimos, me
>OLA ta dikaiwmata pou exei ka8e organismos,
Ti dikaiwmata exei 'ka8e opgavismos'?
>kai prwta apo ola to dikaiwma
>na ZEI.
Ma giati mnlekesai se npagmata sta onoia eisai evtelws anaideutos? Ti so'i'
dikaiwma va zei exei h agelada? H' ta sanpofuta stov evtepiko swlhva? Akoma,
akoma, ektos koivwvikhs opgavwshs nou 8esmo8etei dikaiwmata, ti 'dikaiwmata',
evavti noiwv, kai me noivh ti exei o ka8e av8pwnos? Sthv sabava, ta
'dikaiwmata tou av8pwnou' dev ta lambavei unoyh ths h neivasmevh uaiva. Se
kavei 'va', kai dev na va les esu oti 8eleis nepi tou 'dikaiwmatos' sou va
zeis.
> Parade3ou loipon oti ta peri "egkefalikwn leitourgiwn" einai
>mpourmpourtsala kai fthnos apologitismos twn uposthriktwn ths ektrwshs!
Eisai nolu ikavos suvomilhths. Oti dev mnopeis va avtane3ep8eis me
enixeiphmata to les 'mnoupmnoutsala'. Dev unapxouv 'unosthpiktes ths
ektpwshs'. Unapxouv unosthpiktes tou dikaiwmatos ths guvaikas va elegxei to
swma ths. Dev unapxei kaveis nou va leei oti eivai npotimoteph h ektpwsh ano
thv 'npolhyh' sullhyhs kai kuofopias. Alla, ama napei h 'koivwvia' kai to
'kpatos' to dikaiwma va eniballei stis guvaikes va fepouv eis nepav ka8e
egkumosuvh. tote zhtw nou xesthkame. Ligo apgotepa 8a exei kai to dikaiwma va
eniballei steipwsh h' anoxh ano suvousia.
>Sto katw-katw o Karagewrghs, o Zissiadhs, o Papadhmhtrioou akoma kai twra
>den exoun aneptugmenes egkefalikes drasthriothtes! Na tous skotwsoume
>loipon, afou "den einai an8rwpoi";
Exeis to dikaiwma ths gvwmhs sou. To gegovos oti oute esu, oute h koivwvia
oloklhph exete to dikaiwma va me skotwsete giati kata thv gvwmh kai ektimhshs
sas 'dev eimai av8pwnos' se evav logiko kai sobapo suzhthth 8a metpouse, kai
8a tou edive thv eukaipia va katalabei oti dianpagmateuetai eva 8ema gia to
onoio dev exei thv anapaithth naideia kai thv anapaithth vhfaliothta. P'ws se
avexovtav sthv KNE, akoma dev mnopw va to katalabw. Giati exw apketous filous
npwhn KNITES, kai eivai, nepav ideologiwv, sobapoi suzhthtes kai skentomevoi
av8pwnoi. Esu npenei va eisai h e3aipesh nou enibebaiwvei tov kavova.
> Kai kala na mas thn glutwsoun ta
>malakismena tou soc.culture.greek. dhladh na poume oti ta paidia me
>sundromo Down pou exoun periorismenes ekgefalikes drashtriothtes se sxesh
>me sena, den einai an8rwpoi ki oti prepei na tous sfa3oume;
Ma eivai hdh zwvtavoi kai autovomoi AN8PWPOI. Enishs, va sou nw kati. Sto
tpito nposwno, kai me oudetepo gevos, va mhv milas gia mepikous toulaxistov
sthv scg. Stous nepisotepous ano mas dev sou a3izei oute to ovoma mas va
bazeis sto stoma sou. Kai gia va sou dwsw kai napadeigma 8etikou enisthmova,
kai malista mopiakou biologou me Ph.D. ano thv Agglia: Avastasios Petzios. Av
esu vomizeis oti mnopeis va kaveis maxh me tov Petzio se onoiodhnote eninedo,
tote eisai ovtws nepiopismevwv diavohtikwv ikavothtwv.
<snip>
>> Mia aporia: sta arxika mnvymata tou thread epixeirnmatologouses kata tns
>> ektrwsns fervovtas ws paradeigma posoi favtaroi "xavovtai" eksaitias tous.
>> Dedomevou oti kai n avtisyllnpsn exei to idio apotelesma, eisai evavtiov
>> tns avtisyllnpsns? Na apagoreuthei dia vomou (gia logous ethnikous) ?
>Den eipa pou8ena na mhn uparxei antisullhyh! Diabase ta mhnumata mou, kai
>mhn bazeis sto stoma mou koubentes pou den eipa! Malista, eipa oti einai
>fanatikos upermaxos ths antisullhyhs! Auto pou eipa einai: Kante o,ti
>mporeite na apofugete mia egkumosunh! An apotuxete, tote kalodexoumenh h
>nea zwh!
Na ta uio8ethseis esu loinov kai osoi sumfwvouv mazi sou ola ta 'a8elhta'
veogva! Giati 8eleis va enibaleis tis nposwnikes sou anoyeis stous allous?
>> Mia paratnrnsn: nthikn =/= thrnskeia. Kathe atomo exei dikaiwma va
>> ekferei apopsn epi opoiou thematos, kai va ekfrasei tnv proswpikn tou
>> nthikn apopsn. Dev exei omws dikaiwma va apagoreusei se allous kapoia
>> praktikn aplws kai movo epeidn avtibaivei twv nthikwv tou aksiwv.
>Swsto! Omws, mhn 3exnas oti oi perissoteroi kanontes h8ikhs pou akoma
>dexome8a, epeblh8hkan apo tis 8rhskeias, h' an 8es oi 8rhskeies
>aporrofhsan thn anagkaia h8ikh kai thn epeballan stis koinwnies ws 8elhma
>Kuriou (anoigoume ena filofosiko 8ema edw, opote asto kallutera)!
Ta napanavw, ti sxesh exouv me thv napathphsh napanavw? Ti 8a nei 'avagkaia
h8ikh'. Ti so'i' Map3isths eisai esu telos navtwv? Ovtws, kalutepa va mhv
mnaiveis se filosofika 8emata, giati eisai navtelws asxetos kai anaideutos.
Auto faivetai nepitpava ano tis 'anavthseis' nou exeis dwsei mexpi twpa.
>> Xairetismata,
>> Kyros
>Aloxa,
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Mihalis Panagiotakis
An kai ta osa egrapse o Kyros me kaluptoun apoluta, merika akoma
shmeia:
Koita na deis Astera na sou to pw polu apla: Yparxoun ekatommuria h'
mallon disekatom-
muria aneptugmenoi, teleioi, ekplhktikoi kai oti allo 0eleis organismoi
ston planhth...
kalws h' kakws stis an0rwpines koinwnies, politika dikaiwmata, apo olous
autous tous organismous exoun mono oi an0rwpoi. *Ka0e* embruo zwou
xarakthrizetai apo tous
"ekplhktikous mhxanismous gonidiakhs ru0mishs", auto den apotelei monaxa
an0rwpino
xarakthristiko. Auto pou *xarakthrizei* ton an0rwpo einai oi anwteres
egkefalikes leitourgies. Me auto 0elw na pw thn ikanothta ekma0hshs
glwssas, suneidhths skepshs
kai ta loipa... Akoma kai atoma me sundromo Down parousiazoun auta ta
xarakthristika
perissotero apo ka0e allo zwo kai ws ek toutou einai *an0rwpoi* , kai
exoun (periorismena) politika dikaiwmata. 0a prepei na mou ejhghseis ti
einai ekeino
pou jexwrizei (poiotika) ta an0rwpina embrua duo ebdomadwn apo ta embrua
twn alogwn.
>
> > 2) En telei -dedomenou oti den uparxoun apoluta krithria- h apofash
> > prepei na lambanetai
> > apo tous amesa endiaferomenous thn mana, prwtistws, kai ton patera. To
> > mono pou mporei
> > na kanei h koinwnia einai na ru0misei ta elastikotera oria anoxhs pou
> > einai sumbata
> > me thn upoloiph nomo0esia ths, auto einai kai to kuriws zhtoumeno...
>
> Logariazeis xwris ton 3enodoxo! Wste oi amesa endiaferomenoi einai o
> "pateras" kai h "mana"! Dhladh to zwntano auto plasma pou h "mana"
> apofasizei na dolofonhsei den exei apoyh; Den exei dikaiwma na zhsei;
> Autou thn gnwmh poios thn rwra;
>
Ti ennoeis; oti to duo triwn h pente ebdomadwn exei *gnwmh*; Apo pou ws
pou; Mporei
na skeftei; exei suneidhtothta;
> > 3) H apagoreush twn amblwsewn 0a odhghsei me ma0hmatikh akribeia sthn
> > xrhsimopoihsh paliwn kai ejairetika barbarwn praktikwn- kremastaria,
> > amblwtika mantzounia, xasapogiatroi- kuriws sta ftwxotera strwmata tou
> > plh0usmou (ta plousiwtera
> > mporoun na pane sto ejwteriko gia thn diadikasia auth). An nomizeis oti
> > auta htan
> > spanio fainomeno sou sunistw na janakoitajeis h' na rwthseis osous
> > 0umountai. Poses
> > gunaikes pe0anan poses sakateuthkan kai poses emeinan gia panta
> > steires...
>
> Auta einai anekdota! Sthn Germania giati den eginan ola auta; 8a sou pw
> EGW giati! Giati h D. Germania htan ena eunomoumeno kratos! Den einai
> duskolo na epiballeis to nomo. Merika ntou ths astunomias, merikes
> afaireseis adeiwn askhsews iatrikou epaggelmatos einai kai merikes
> fulakiseis! Tipote allo!
Epetrepse mou na sou pw oti ektrwseis ginotan kai 0a ginontai sthn
Germania, anejarthta
apo nomous apo osous to riskaroun. Apo pou ftaneis sto sumperasma oti h
apagoreush
odhgei sto stamathma twn ektrwsewn... Poses Germanides phgainan ws thn
Gallia, h'
thn Agglia, h' opou diaolo allou gia na kanoun ektrwsh; Exeis upopsh
sou; Rwta kanenan
(mh sunthrhtiko) Germano na sou pei an eginan kai ginontai ola auta...
*Pou0ena* ston kosmo apo oso jerw den exei ejaleif0ei mesw ths
nomo0esias h ektrwsh.
Oso gia ta anekdota... rwta kai kanenan megalutero na sou pei kai alla.
>
> > 4) Politika mia tetoia apofash einai apofash xeiragwgishs twn gunaikwn.
> > Kalws h'
> > kakws opws esu exeis to dikaiwma na pas ejw na spoudaseis, na kaneis thn
> > zwh sou kai
> > na mhn dineis logariasmo se kanenan, etsi kai ka0e gunaika exei dikaiwma
> > na anaballei
> > (h' na arnh0ei) na kanei paidia oso 0elei kai oso thn boleuei. Eite gia
> > logous bioporismou, eite gia logous xronou eite, eite, eite.... To 0ema
> > einai oti apaj kai
> > den epi0umei paidi einai protimotero gia authn kai gia to paidi, na mhn
> > to kanei.
>
> Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
Na sou pw: sumfwneis sthn idea oti apaj kai *esu* afhseis egkuo mia
gunaika eisai upoxrewmenos na plhrwneis kai na douleueis gia to paidi ef
orou zwhs?
Egw Astera pisteuw oti to na gamietai o kosmos einai kalo...
Apolaustiko, xalarwtiko
kai gnwrizeis kosmo... Den 0ewrw oti einai amartia oute kati to mempto.
>
> > 5) An kai sebomai thn proswpikh sou empeiria kai den amfisbhtw thn
> > episthmonikh sou
> > katartish, einai nomizw gnwsto oti anamesa ston episthmoniko kosmo den
> > uparxei kammia
> > sunainesh gia to 0ema auto. Anti0eta exw akousei apo giatrous teleiws
> > diaforetikes
> > apopseis epi tou 0ematos. Oi logoi gi' auto anaferontai sto (1).
>
> Fusika! Oi pio polloi giatroi einai uper ths ektrwshs gia na ta konomane!
> Oi de polemioi ths nomimopoihshs, to kanoun giati tis protimousan
> paranomes, upo to prohgoumeno ka8estws ths asudwsias, pou tous ekane na
> noiw8oun sigouroi oti kaneis den 8a tous zhthsei eu8unes kai pou mporousan
> na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
Mporw na se bebaiwsw oti polloi giatroi *mh maieuthres*, biologoi ktl
einai
enantion ths apagoreushs, ara xrhmatiko kinhtro gi' autous den uparxei.
>
> Den sou lew egw gia epistrofh sto prohgoumeno ka8estws! Pros 8eou!
> Xasaphdes klp den goustarw! Alla mporoume na efarmwsoume apoluth
> apagoreush, arkei na ginetai swsta to kunhgi stous giatrous! Sto
> katw-katw, den einai da kai polloi oi giatroi pou kanoun tetoies
> epembaseis! To kratos aneta mporei na tous eleg3ei, ama to epi8umei!
Mono se astunomika krath endexetai na mporeseis na epiballeis apoluth
apagoreush
kai kei amfibolo. To dustuxhma einai oti akribws den uparxoun para
polloi giatroi pou
kanoun tetoies epembaseis kai ws ek toutou 0a epistrateutoun maies,
farmakopoioi,
kthniatroi, kompogiannhtes ktl me dolofonika gia tis mhteres
apotelesmata.
>
> > 6) Profanws to 0ema ths upogennhtikothtas oudolws exei na kanei me to
> > 0ema ths ektrwshs.
> > H Germania exei polu xamhlh gennhtikothta kai apagoreuei tis amblwseis
> > kai h Kina
> > exei (akoma) upshlh gennhtikothta kai *en0arrunei* tis amblwseis.
>
> Les malakies kai malista xontres! Skeyou kai monos giati...
Oxi Astera skepsou to kai su... Opws kai na to kaneis, oikonomika
anaptugmenes xwres
0a exoun mikroterh gennhtikothta apo tis anaptussomenes, *anejarthta*
apo to an
apagoreuontai h' oxi oi amblwseis. Mporw na sou pw oti an apagoreutoun
aurio
"apoluta" (opws to fantazesai) oi ektrwseis, ta profulaktika sthn Ellada
0a ginoun anarpasta, mazika gunaikes 0a arxisoun na xrhsimopoioun to
xapi kok. To teliko apotelesma 0a einai ashmanto ari0mhtika.
>
> > 7) To monadiko sigouro (kai se auto nomizw sumfwnoume) einai oti h
> > drastikoterh
> > meiwsh twn amblwsewn 0a sumbei me thn enhmerwsh sxetika me thn
> > antisullhpsh.
>
> Nai, se auto sumfwnoume.
>
> > 8) Isws epishs sumfwnoume pws oso nwritera ginei h ektrwsh toso ligotera
> > "h0ika"
> > problhmata anakuptoun.
>
> Opws sou exw pei, oi ektrwseis den ginontai se ena stadio pou na mou
> epitrepei na tis dextw h8ika kai epistmonika. Epipleon, oi "ektrwseis"
> opws tis oneireuesai esu (me xapia liges meres meta thn sunousia), exoun
> duo kaka: 1) Epanapauoun tis gunaikes kai tis kanoun na mhn pairnoun
> profulla3eis ("xuse mesa agorara mou, ki ennoia sou, aurio 8a katapiw to
> ektrwtiko xapi")
Kala ki h agorara den jerei na mhn kanei malakies; 'H mhpws nomizeis
oti oles oi
gunaikes *goustaroun* na pairnoun amblwtika xapia ka0e treis kai ligo;
> 2) Exoun terasties sunepeies gia thn ugeia tous! Poso
> mallon, an me thn epanapaush pou tus prosferei, to xrhsimopoioun suxna!
Gia thn opoia ugeia tous upeu0unes einai autes kai monon autes.
>
> > Prepei bebaia na
> > omologhsw oti
> > proswpika eimai a0eos, alla den exw kanena problhma en genei me
> > an0rwpous pou 0rhskeuontai. Exw problhma otan diaforoi xrhsimopoioun
> > 0eologika epixeirhmata
> > se "praktikes" suzhthseis...
>
> Monos paradexesai oti to 8ema einai zhthma "h8ikhs" kai "deontologias".
> Ara, den einai mono "praktiko". Kai apo thn stigmh pou mpainei h h8ikh
> mesa, tote ektos apo iatriko, ginetai kai 8rhskeutiko. Ara, einai eunohto
> giati o 8rhskeuomenos exei dikaiwma na ekferei apoyh epi tou 8ematos!
Na ekferei nai, na epiballei oxi.
>
> Opote 8a sou anaferw kai ena 8eologiko epixeirhma, pou akoma ki an den to
> dexesai, eixai upoxreomenos na to sebasteis:
>
> Sthn Ekklhsia mas, eortazoume oxi mono tis gennhseis twn an8rwpwn (px
> Xristougenna) alla akoma kai... sullhyeis tous! Sto Eortologio mas, exoume
> TREIS eortes epeteiwn sullhyewn:
>
> 1) Ton Euaggelismo ths 8eotokou, pou apotelei thn Amwmo Sullhyh tou
> Xristou (25 Martiou- akribws 9 mhnes prin thn gennhsh tou pou eortazetai
> stis 25 Dekembriou).
>
> 2) Thn Sullhyh ths Panagias (Iwakeim kai Annhs, stis 9 Dekembriou) pou
> egine toso fusika oso h sullhyh h dikh sou kai h dikh mou!
>
> 3) Mia akoma fusikh sullhyh pou den 8umamai kai bariemai na dw to
> eortologio (nomizw oti einai h sullhyh ths Annhs, mhteras ths Panagias).
>
> Opws loipon blepeis, gia thn Ekklhsia, h zwh 3ekina apo to zugwto! Apo thn
> stigmh ths sullhyhs. Elpizw loipon na mporeis twra na katalabeis giati
> prosballei toso polu tous 8rhskeuomenous an8rwpous h idea kai mono ths
> ektrwshs, akoma kai sta prohma stadia ths kuhshs. Akoma ki an diafwneis me
> thn 8rhskeia, pou einai dikaiwma sou, einai adunaton na mh sebasteis thn
> 8esh tous.
Gia thn ekklhsia mexri protinos h gh htan epipedh kai isxue to "pisteue
kai mh ereuna".
To oti sebomai thn 0esh tous den shmainei oti tous dinw to dikaiwma na
apofasizoun gia tritous.
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Kyros Hadjikyrou
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508203747.29916A-100000@bute>, Asteras
Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
[snip]
>> To thema edw eivai kata posov kai pote dikaioutai n koivwvia (mesw
>> kratous) va epembei stnv idiwtikn zwn tou atomou. Kai to erwtnma eivai
>> "giati egw ws koivwvia va apagoreusw tis ektrwseis?" Av to epixeirnma eivai
>> "giati tha skotwseis allo avthrwpo", prepei va *apodeikseis* pws etsi
>> eivai, to opoio parapempei pali sto pote to embryo thewreitai avthrwpos
>> (kai gi'auto to thema prepei va xrnsimopointhouv epistnmovika kritnria,
>> opws biwsimotnta, bathmos egkefalikwv leitourgiwv klp pou avefere o
>> Mixalns) To oti to embryo eivai zwvtavo dev snmaivei pws exei automata kai
>> vomika dikaiwmata n' pws eivai avthrwpos.
>
>Monos sou bazeis ena AU8AIRETO KRITHRIO "AN8RWPOPOIHSHS"! Ki esu kai o
>Mixalhs! Wraia! Egw den mporw na peisw oti einai "an8rwpos" ena zugwto h'
>ena embruo sto stadio twn 2 h' twn 4 kuttarwn! Mporw omws na se bebaiwsw
>oti einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos! Me ekplhktikous mhxanismous
>ru8mishs klp. Den 3erw an auto to prama legetai an8rwpos! 3erw omws oti to
>na bazeis gia krthrio tou ti einai an8rwpos tis egkefalikes leitourgies,
>tote kaneis kati 100% au8aireto! Giati h tarifa na einai stis egkefalikes
Edw diafwvoume. Avafera kai priv pws gia va apofasisoume kata posov evas
orgavismos thewreitai "avthrwpos", prepei va basistoume se kapoia
epistnmovika kritnria. Isws va mnv to ksekatharisa: avthrwpos apo vomikn
kai oxi filosofikn klp apopsn. Mporei gia seva evas vazistns va mnv eivai
avthrwpos, alla nomikws auto dev stekei. Gia tis avagkes tou vomou,
xreiazomaste oso to dyvatov perissotera epistnmovika kritnria, kai oxi tou
typou "n thrnskeia mou thewrei pws to zygwto eivai avthrwpos, ara etsi
eivai". Yparxouv kapoia xaraktnristika pou eivai *avagkaia* (necessary) gia
va apokaleseis kati avthrwpo, av kai isws oxi ikava (sufficient). Eva eks
autwv eivai eva *elaxisto* epipedo egkefalikns leitourgias. Ksereis esy
avthrwpo xwris egkefalo?? Twra, mporei va syzntas gia to poio eivai akribws
auto to epipedo, pws tha metrnthei klp alla dev mporei va thewrnthei autn n
proypothesn ws authairetn. Egw dev exw dogmatikes avtirrnseis sto va pw "to
zygwto eivai avthrwpos", alla perimevw va peistw me logika kai epistnmovika
epixeirnmata, kai oxi theologika. Sto katw-katw, zntas va thewrnthei n
ektrwsn fovos me tis poives pou auto eksypakouetai: to elaxisto pou prepei
va kaveis eivai va eisai sigouros pws etsi eivai.
>leitourgies ki oxi sto oti px den einai ektos ths gunaikas (dhladh oso
>einai embruo na mhn einai an8rwpos); Egw loipon 8ewrw oti apo ta prwta
>kiolas stadio ths embruogeneshs milame gia enan an8rwpino organimos, me
>OLA ta dikaiwmata pou exei ka8e organismos, kai prwta apo ola to dikaiwma
Av mporeis va ksekathariseis kati: evvoeis meta tnv prwtn diairesn tou
zygwtou? tnv eisodo tou spermatozwariou sto augo? H biologia mou eivai
rusty :) Opws kai va exei, proteiveis auto to kritnrio ws elaxisto/avagkaio
(pou to apodexomai kai egw) n' ws ikavo? Kai osov afora ta dikaiwmata twv
orgavismwv, pote apefasisthn pws kathe orgavismos exei *dikaiwma* va zei?
Milas gia nthiko n' vomiko? Kai otav thavatwvoume zwa gia brwsn, peiramata
k.a. parabiazoume ta dikaiwmata tous? Otav plakostrwveis tnv auln sou,
skotwveis ametrntous orgavismous: profavws, opoia dikaiwmata exouv oi
orgavismoi autoi dev yperterouv tou dikaiwmatos kathe idioktntn va
plakostrwvei tnv auln tou, kai dev mporeis va ta epikalesteis gia to
embryo. Twra, av deikseis oti eivai avthrwpos...
[snip]
>> :-) "apolytn apagoreusn"? :-) Wraio...
>
>Nai, polloi gunaikologoi 8eloun na epitreyoume sto prohgoumeno ka8estws
>au8airesias, pou oi ektrwseis htan paranomes! Giati auto tous prostateue
>afou kaneis den tous ekane mhnuseis gia tuxon la8h, mia kai oi epembaseis
>autes "pote' den eginan". Epipleon, oute apodei3eis gia ton idio logo den
>koboun, enw mporoun na zhthsoun osa 8eloun!
>
Na mou epitrepseis va se amfisbntnsw edw. Gia meva akouetai yperboliko,
kai tha nthela va parousiaseis kapoies pnges gia tn dnlwsn. Proerxetai apo
ereuves, meletes, proswpikes avtilnpseis, syzntnseis sou me gynaikologous?
Se kathe epaggelma kapoioi pavta paravomouv gia to kerdos, alla to "polloi"
apo pou nrthe?
>Egw den milaw gia epistrofh se auto to ka8estws. O oros "apolytn
>apagoreusn" pou ton korohdeueis giati den mporeis na katalabeis thn
>sobarothta tou, shmainei "OXI stis ektrwseis! Full Stop!"! Opoios piastei
>na kanei ektrwseis, 8a xasei thn adeia askhshs epaggelmatos, 8a xrew8ei me
>poinh eite xrhmatikh, eite fulakish, eite kai ta duo! Na dw tote, an 8a
>kanoun tetoio pragma oi gunaikologoi!
>
Mia paratnrnsn: ef'osov ektrwsn (tha) eivai fovos, tote n poivn gia tous
giatrous (kai tis mnteres) tha prepei va eivai n avtistoixn fovou ek
promeletns, swsta? Ti afairesn adeias kai loipa.
>> Mia aporia: sta arxika mnvymata tou thread epixeirnmatologouses kata tns
>> ektrwsns fervovtas ws paradeigma posoi favtaroi "xavovtai" eksaitias tous.
>> Dedomevou oti kai n avtisyllnpsn exei to idio apotelesma, eisai evavtiov
>> tns avtisyllnpsns? Na apagoreuthei dia vomou (gia logous ethnikous) ?
>
>Den eipa pou8ena na mhn uparxei antisullhyh! Diabase ta mhnumata mou, kai
>mhn bazeis sto stoma mou koubentes pou den eipa! Malista, eipa oti einai
>fanatikos upermaxos ths antisullhyhs! Auto pou eipa einai: Kante o,ti
>mporeite na apofugete mia egkumosunh! An apotuxete, tote kalodexoumenh h
>nea zwh!
>
Bre Astera, sou ekama erwtnsn. Hthela va ksekathariseis auto to thema,
dioti apo tn mia eleges pws oi ektrwseis meiwvouv tov plnthysmo, tous
favtarous klp kai apo tnv alln proaspizesai tnv avtisyllnpsn, pou exei tis
idies, av oxi megalyteres, epiptwseis pavw stov plnthysmo. Eav dev se
katalaba swsta, apologoumai, alla mou faivetai inconsistent.
[snip]
>
>Aloxa,
Kyros Hadjikyrou
Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
>
> > Av mporeis va ksekathariseis kati: evvoeis meta tnv prwtn diairesn tou
> > zygwtou? tnv eisodo tou spermatozwariou sto augo? H biologia mou eivai
> > rusty :) Opws kai va exei, proteiveis auto to kritnrio ws elaxisto/avagkaio
> > (pou to apodexomai kai egw) n' ws ikavo? Kai osov afora ta dikaiwmata twv
> > orgavismwv, pote apefasisthn pws kathe orgavismos exei *dikaiwma* va zei?
> > Milas gia nthiko n' vomiko? Kai otav thavatwvoume zwa gia brwsn, peiramata
> > k.a. parabiazoume ta dikaiwmata tous? Otav plakostrwveis tnv auln sou,
> > skotwveis ametrntous orgavismous: profavws, opoia dikaiwmata exouv oi
> > orgavismoi autoi dev yperterouv tou dikaiwmatos kathe idioktntn va
> > plakostrwvei tnv auln tou, kai dev mporeis va ta epikalesteis gia to
> > embryo. Twra, av deikseis oti eivai avthrwpos...
>
> Den diabazeis Astera Amaliadas! Gia to 8ema milhsa polles fores pio prin!
> H8iko problhma uparxei MONO otan exeis na kaneis me zwes an8rwpwn! Auto
> leei h iatrikh kai h koinwnikh deontologia! Kaneis den se kathgorei pou
> rixneis flit, pou trws xampourgker kai kais 3ula sto tzaki sou!
Omologw pws dev parakolouthw polles syzntnseis edw: otav bgaleis ta Apavta sou,
Astera, tha prospathnsw va ta meletnsw :-) Euxaristw gia tn dieukrivnsn twv
'orgavismwv': tha nthela va sou zntnsw ksava av theleis va dieukriviseis ta alla
dyo themata (poia akribws stigmn tns embryogevesns milas gia avthrwpo, kai eivai
auto eva kritnrio apo movo tou ikavo h' aplws eva apo polla alla?)
[snip]
> Pali den diabazeis Astera Amaliadas (mallon ton diabazeis kai den ton
> katalabineis kai eu8unh exeis esu)!
>
> Den exw kanena problhma me thn antisullhyh! KANENA! H ANTISULLHYH DEN
> SKOTWNEI ZWES! APLA DEN PARAGEI ANEPI8IMHTES ZWES! H EKTRWSH OMWS
[snip]
> erxetai!";;; Pou loipon uparxei asunepeia;
>
Opws eipa kai priv, pithavov va mnv se katalaba: va sou pw loipov pws
avtelnfthnka tis dnlwseis sou pros apofygnv pareksngnsns:1) Se prohgoumevo arthro
sou aveferes tov arithmo ektrwsewv kai tis epiptwseis tous pavw stov
plnthysmo/amyva tns Elladas. Apo to context to ermnveusa ws eva (epiprostheto,
estw) logo gia va apagoreuthouv oi ektrwseis.
2) Se allo arthro dnlwveis ypermaxos tns avtisyllnpsns.
3) Gia meva to asyvepes egkeitai sto va xrnsimopoieis tis epiptwseis stov
plnthysmo pou prokyptouv apo tis ektrwseis ws eva logo apagoreusns tous, alla oxi
gia tnv avtisyllnpsn (pou episns exei paromoies epiptwseis).
Epavalambavw oti av parermnveusa to epixeirnma sou peri ektrwsewv/plnthysmou,
apologoumai. Av theleis, eksngnse mou pws to evvoouses gia va mnv sygxyzomai kai
gw :)
[snip]
Kathoti ek Kyprou, dev gvwrizw statistika gia ektrwseis klp stnv Ellada: tha
nthela va rwtnsw poio eivai to parov vomiko kathestws twv amblwsewv eis tnv
Ellada? Eivai paravomes, vomimes me periorismous, vomimes aveu periorismwv?
[snip]
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Xairetismata,
Kyros
--
*************************************************************************
* Kyros Hadjikyrou * Cyprus: Aphrodite's Island *
* http://www.eecs.ukans.edu/~khadjiky * Xaire kai Piei Eu *
* mailto:ky...@ukans.edu * Be Merry and Drink Well *
* University of Kansas * Non Serviam *
*************************************************************************
Asteras Amaliadas
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
> Av mporeis va ksekathariseis kati: evvoeis meta tnv prwtn diairesn tou
> zygwtou? tnv eisodo tou spermatozwariou sto augo? H biologia mou eivai
> rusty :) Opws kai va exei, proteiveis auto to kritnrio ws elaxisto/avagkaio
> (pou to apodexomai kai egw) n' ws ikavo? Kai osov afora ta dikaiwmata twv
> orgavismwv, pote apefasisthn pws kathe orgavismos exei *dikaiwma* va zei?
> Milas gia nthiko n' vomiko? Kai otav thavatwvoume zwa gia brwsn, peiramata
> k.a. parabiazoume ta dikaiwmata tous? Otav plakostrwveis tnv auln sou,
> skotwveis ametrntous orgavismous: profavws, opoia dikaiwmata exouv oi
> orgavismoi autoi dev yperterouv tou dikaiwmatos kathe idioktntn va
> plakostrwvei tnv auln tou, kai dev mporeis va ta epikalesteis gia to
> embryo. Twra, av deikseis oti eivai avthrwpos...
Den diabazeis Astera Amaliadas! Gia to 8ema milhsa polles fores pio prin!
H8iko problhma uparxei MONO otan exeis na kaneis me zwes an8rwpwn! Auto
leei h iatrikh kai h koinwnikh deontologia! Kaneis den se kathgorei pou
rixneis flit, pou trws xampourgker kai kais 3ula sto tzaki sou!
> Bre Astera, sou ekama erwtnsn. Hthela va ksekathariseis auto to thema,
> dioti apo tn mia eleges pws oi ektrwseis meiwvouv tov plnthysmo, tous
> favtarous klp kai apo tnv alln proaspizesai tnv avtisyllnpsn, pou exei tis
> idies, av oxi megalyteres, epiptwseis pavw stov plnthysmo. Eav dev se
> katalaba swsta, apologoumai, alla mou faivetai inconsistent.
Pali den diabazeis Astera Amaliadas (mallon ton diabazeis kai den ton
katalabineis kai eu8unh exeis esu)!
Den exw kanena problhma me thn antisullhyh! KANENA! H ANTISULLHYH DEN
SKOTWNEI ZWES! APLA DEN PARAGEI ANEPI8IMHTES ZWES! H EKTRWSH OMWS SKOTWNEI
AN8RWPINES UPAR3EIS gia na mhn uparxoun aneph8hmhtes zwes! KATALABES PIA
TH DIAFORA; NA giati elege o asteras "kane o,ti mporeis gia na apofugeis
thn eggumosunh, an omws er8ei, tote kalodexoumenh h nea zwh pou
erxetai!";;; Pou loipon uparxei asunepeia;
Oso gia tis ektrwseis pou meiwnoun ton plu8hsmo! Yemmata einai re; 100.000
to xrono ginontai (pou mporei na einai 300.000). Sthn xeiroterh twn
periptwsewn h apagoreush tous fernei 1.000.000 neous ellhnes (10%
plu8hsmiakh au3hsh) apo thn mia apografh sthn allh! Mhpws exeis thn
entupwsh oti den 8a piastei to noumero auto epeidh oi ellhnides 8a rixtoun
sthn antisullhyh; Nomizeis oti polles apo autres den ekanan antisullhyh;
> Xairetismata,
> Kyros
Telos, na pw oti eu8unh ka8e antra einai na analogistei to baros ths
pra3hs tou! Kai na anagnwrisei to paidi pou espure! 8ewrw katrakula gia
ka8e antra (dustuxws pio neos den ta eblepa auta) na sprwxnei mia gunaika
se ektrwsh! Egw toulaxiston DEN 8A TO KANW!
Se "Meine mazi mou egguos
eimai polu feregguos" mode
ki oxi se "Kane mazi mou ektrwsh
exw giatro me ekptwsh" mode
pou mas ta tragoudate eseis!
Nikos Efentakis
Kyros Hadjikyrou <ky...@ukans.edu> wrote in article
<kyros-ya02408000...@news.cc.ukans.edu>...
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980508105209.28168A-100000@bute>, Asteras
> Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 7 May 1998, Mihalis Panagiotakis wrote:
> >
> >> Na na sou
> >> pw ta epixeirhmata mou KATA ths apagoreushs twn ektrwsewn:
> >>
> >> 1) To zhthma einai apo poia stigmh to embruo einai an0rwpino
Kai se pio shmeio h zwh twn goniwn einai an8rwpinh....
> >Logariazeis xwris ton 3enodoxo! Wste oi amesa endiaferomenoi einai o
> >"pateras" kai h "mana"! Dhladh to zwntano auto plasma pou h "mana"
> >apofasizei na dolofonhsei den exei apoyh; Den exei dikaiwma na zhsei;
> >Autou thn gnwmh poios thn rwra;
Dustuxws, to paidi gia na megallwsei kai na anapty3ei proswpikothta
xreiazetai tous goneis. Ean prokeitai oi goneis na to skotwsoun sto 3ulo
argotera opws ekane prosfata mia mana me to 19mhnoi paidi ths, kalutera na
eixe kanei ektrwsh.
> To thema edw eivai kata posov kai pote dikaioutai n koivwvia (mesw
> kratous) va epembei stnv idiwtikn zwn tou atomou. Kai to erwtnma eivai
> "giati egw ws koivwvia va apagoreusw tis ektrwseis?"
H koinwnia de mporei na megalwsei paidia xwris goneis. Ftanei h
episthmonosunh. Einai duskolo na megalwseis paidia (allh8eia exeis?).
Kalutera ena nekro embrua para mia dialummenh oikogeneiea, sthn opoia to
embruo den 8a brei pote ta dikaiwmata poy epikalhse.
> >Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
De mou les monh ths gamietai h allh? H o allos den exei eu8hnh?
> Edw milas gia eleutheres n' gia pavtremeves?
Ean perasei kaneis Sabbato prwi apo to MHTEPA (to maieuthrio) 8a
diapistwsei oti mallon oi pantremenoi gamane perissotero (!)
> >Fusika! Oi pio polloi giatroi einai uper ths ektrwshs gia na ta
konomane!
Enw ta idrumata me ta egkatallelhmena paidia den dinoun ta paidia se
anadoxous oikogeneies gia na mhn xasoun tis kratikes epixorhghseis. Mh
skas, kai me ta paidia ta konomane kapoioi. Ki epeidh, me ola kapoioi 8a
broun tropo na ta konomane, exei papsei na einai auto epixeirhma!
> >> 6) Profanws to 0ema ths upogennhtikothtas oudolws exei na kanei me to
> >> 0ema ths ektrwshs.
Na ftia3oume enan nomo pou na upoxrewnei tis gunaikes na kanoun ena paidi
ka8e 2 xronia, ki ean arneitai na tis gonimopoioun eidikoi episthmones....O
megaluteros
summaxos the upogennhtikothtas einai h TV.-
Nikos
Vasilios Psarras
On 9 May 1998 04:36:57 GMT, "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr> wrote in article
<01bd7b04$9f56e680$6c2b4bc3@default>:
>Na ftia3oume enan nomo pou na upoxrewnei tis gunaikes na kanoun ena paidi
>ka8e 2 xronia, ki ean arneitai na tis gonimopoioun eidikoi episthmones....O
Nai nai symfwnw apolyta, kai malista prosferomai na analabw san "eidikos
episthmwn"...
Vasilios Psarras
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-Spam note: To reply via email use the following address:
Asteras Amaliadas
On Fri, 8 May 1998, Kyros Hadjikyrou wrote:
> Omologw pws dev parakolouthw polles syzntnseis edw: otav bgaleis ta Apavta sou,
> Astera, tha prospathnsw va ta meletnsw :-)
8a to exw up oyin mou na to ekdosw auto to biblio!
> Euxaristw gia tn dieukrivnsn twv
> 'orgavismwv': tha nthela va sou zntnsw ksava av theleis va dieukriviseis ta alla
> dyo themata (poia akribws stigmn tns embryogevesns milas gia avthrwpo, kai eivai
> auto eva kritnrio apo movo tou ikavo h' aplws eva apo polla alla?)
De nomizw oti uparxei pistiko epixeirhma tou pote ena embruo legetai
"an8rwpos" kai exei ws ek toutou to anafaireto dikaiwma ths zwhs. Bazeis
au8aireta ws krthrio thn egkefalikh tou anaptu3h.
3ereis omws ti mou 8umizei auth h logikh; Thn logikh: "3eroume to
sumperasma, twra na broume, pw's 8a katalh3oume se auto!", dhladh "eimaste
uper ths ektrwshs, as broume ena epixeirhma gia na thn sthri3oume h8ika".
Kai gi' auto les oti krithrio gia na legesai an8rwpos prepei na einai oi
anaptugmenes egkefalikes diergasies (pou ginontai se hlikia pio megalh apo
authn pou ta ebrua skotwnontai kata thn ektrwsh)!
Nomizw oti apoluto krithrio DEN uparxei gia to pio embruikh hlikia einai h
hlikia ths "an8rwpopoihshs". Uparxei omws, kati allo, polu pio peistiko:
Na deis kai monos sou se ena uperhxografhma ena zwntano embruo (h akoma
kallutera ena nekro embruo) ths hlikias pou ginontai oi ektrwseis! Tote
kai monos 8a paradexteis oti auto to plasma, mono "amorfo susswmatwma
kuttarwn" den einai! Monos, sou uposxomai, oti 8a peis: Eixa la8os! Auto
egine me mena, pou hmouna paliotera upermaxos twn ektrwsewn kai me ton
kairo katalaba monos to la8os mou.
> Opws eipa kai priv, pithavov va mnv se katalaba: va sou pw loipov pws
> avtelnfthnka tis dnlwseis sou pros apofygnv pareksngnsns:1) Se prohgoumevo arthro
> sou aveferes tov arithmo ektrwsewv kai tis epiptwseis tous pavw stov
> plnthysmo/amyva tns Elladas. Apo to context to ermnveusa ws eva (epiprostheto,
> estw) logo gia va apagoreuthouv oi ektrwseis.
> 2) Se allo arthro dnlwveis ypermaxos tns avtisyllnpsns.
> 3) Gia meva to asyvepes egkeitai sto va xrnsimopoieis tis epiptwseis stov
> plnthysmo pou prokyptouv apo tis ektrwseis ws eva logo apagoreusns tous, alla oxi
> gia tnv avtisyllnpsn (pou episns exei paromoies epiptwseis).
> Epavalambavw oti av parermnveusa to epixeirnma sou peri ektrwsewv/plnthysmou,
> apologoumai. Av theleis, eksngnse mou pws to evvoouses gia va mnv sygxyzomai kai
> gw :)
An kai den katalabes la8os, 3exnas mia koubenta pou 8a pw gia 4h fora, gia
xarh sou:
Eimai uper ths antisullhyhs! NAI! Den 8eloume paidia pou den eimaste
etoimoi na megalwsoume! Prospa8eiste, an de mporeite na zhsete me mia
eggumosunh, na thn apofugetai oso mporeite! An apotuxete, tote
kalodexoumenh h nea zwh pou erxete!
H ektrwsh den einai antisullhyh. Anti-sullhyh, 8a pei na prospa8hseis na
mhn ginei mia sullhyh! Thn ektrwsh thn kanoun afou exei ginei h sullhyh
kai hdh exei dhmiourgh8ei mia nea zwh! H ektrwsh einai afairesh auths ths
zwhs kai ws afairesh zwhs, gia mena einai dolofonia! Auth thn dolofonia an
stamathsoume, tote o plu8usmos 8a au3h8ei kata 1 ekatomurio ana apografh!
> Kathoti ek Kyprou, dev gvwrizw statistika gia ektrwseis klp stnv Ellada: tha
> nthela va rwtnsw poio eivai to parov vomiko kathestws twv amblwsewv eis tnv
> Ellada? Eivai paravomes, vomimes me periorismous, vomimes aveu periorismwv?
Ton kako tous ton kairo! Palia htan paranomes, kai ginontan paranoma. Auto
to bioli stamathse, oxi me to na ginontai elegxoi gia na mhn ginete auto
to agklhma, alla me to na nomimopoihsoun tis ektrwseis! San na leme, gia
na mhn ginetai paranomo narkemporio, anti na to pata3oume me astunomika
metra, emeis to nomimopoioume. Parepiptontws, edw napw ena "proodeutiko"
mounoxeilo edw mesa, eipe oti eimai 'stalinikos kratisths' ki oti zhtw na
kanei h astunomia 'o,ti kanane stous kommounistes'! To ka8hkon ths
astunomias einai na perifrourei thn ta3h. Den einai astunomokratia na
zhtas apo thn astunomia na kanei ektelei to ka8hkon ths pou einai o
monadikos skopos upar3hs ths! Alla pou na to peis auto se drapetes ths
ektrwshs; Skopos ths astunomias einai na kunhga tous apatewnes kai tous
prattontes h8ika egklhmata kata ths koinwnias!
> > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
>
> Xairetismata,
> Kyros
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980509225808.19109B-100000@bute> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
<snip>
>An kai den katalabes la8os, 3exnas mia koubenta pou 8a pw gia 4h fora, gia
>xarh sou:
Gia xiliosth fopa; stis npwtes sou vu3eis nepi tou 8ematos, e8eses ws
enixeiphma unep ths anagopeushs kai noivikonoihshs twv ektpwsewv to oti
suvtelouv sthv 'anwleia' shmavtikou api8mou mellovtwv favtapwv. O Kupos, me
unomovh agiou, sou enavalambavei oti me authv th logikh kai h avtisullhyh
npenei va anogopeutei kai va noivikonoih8ei, dioti exei akpibws ta idia h'
isxupotepa anotelesmata meiwshs tou nlh8usmou twv stpateusimwv vewv.
>Eimai uper ths antisullhyhs! NAI! Den 8eloume paidia pou den eimaste
>etoimoi na megalwsoume!
Giati o nlh8uvtikos? Milas ek mepous kai kanoiwv allwv? Av milas gia tov euato
sou, kai ta naidia SOU, exei kalws. Gia twv allwv ta naidia exeis movov logo
otav sou eniballetai va ta 8pefeis (kai tous goveis tou) nio nolu ano auta nou
htav 'kalodexoumeva' ano tous goveis tous. Alliws, dev sou neftei logos.
> Prospa8eiste, an de mporeite na zhsete me mia
>eggumosunh, na thn apofugetai oso mporeite!
Se noious aneu8uvesai? Giati dev meveis stov eauto sou?
> An apotuxete, tote
>kalodexoumenh h nea zwh pou erxetai!
Mnopei va eivai 'kalodexoumevh' gia SENA. Auto dev shmaivei oti npenei va eivai
kai kalodexoumevh gia autous nou thv 'ekavav'.
>H ektrwsh den einai antisullhyh. Anti-sullhyh, 8a pei na prospa8hseis na
>mhn ginei mia sullhyh! Thn ektrwsh thn kanoun afou exei ginei h sullhyh
>kai hdh exei dhmiourgh8ei mia nea zwh! H ektrwsh einai afairesh auths ths
>zwhs kai ws afairesh zwhs, gia mena einai dolofonia!
Oloi sumfwvoume oti h ektpwsh dev eivai avtisullhyh. Gia va milas gia
dolofovia, npofavws 8ewpeis ka8e embpuo, se onoiodhnote shmeio ths evdomhtpias
avantu3hs tou ws a3iwmatika 'av8pwno'. Pepaitepw, kavovika npenei va milas
nepi 'av8pwnoktovias' kai oxi 'dolofovias'. Oles oi dolofovies eivai
av8pwnoktovies, alla oles oi av8pwnoktovies dev eivai dolofovies. To olo 8ema
eivai av h 'afaipesh ths zwhs' evos embpuou eivai navtote afaipesh AN8PWPINHS
zwhs.
<snip>
>> Kathoti ek Kyprou, dev gvwrizw statistika gia ektrwseis klp stnv Ellada: tha
>> nthela va rwtnsw poio eivai to parov vomiko kathestws twv amblwsewv eis tnv
>> Ellada? Eivai paravomes, vomimes me periorismous, vomimes aveu periorismwv?
>Ton kako tous ton kairo! Palia htan paranomes, kai ginontan paranoma. Auto
>to bioli stamathse, oxi me to na ginontai elegxoi gia na mhn ginete auto
>to egklhma, alla me to na nomimopoihsoun tis ektrwseis! San na leme, gia
>na mhn ginetai paranomo narkemporio, anti na to pata3oume me astunomika
>metra, emeis to nomimopoioume. Parepiptontws, edw napw ena "proodeutiko"
>mounoxeilo edw mesa, eipe oti eimai 'stalinikos kratisths' ki oti zhtw na
>kanei h astunomia 'o,ti kanane stous kommounistes'! To ka8hkon ths
>astunomias einai na perifrourei thn ta3h.
Ti 8a nei 'ta3h'? Giati dev nepifpoupousav thv _tote_ 'ta3h' oi astuvomikoi,
oi xwpofulakes kai to napakpatos otav katediwkav tous Koumouvistes. H evvoia
'ta3h' dev eivai Platwvikh. Eivai koivwvika domhmevh kai istopika e3apthmevh.
> Den einai astunomokratia na
>zhtas apo thn astunomia na kanei ektelei to ka8hkon ths pou einai o
>monadikos skopos upar3hs ths!
Av h ektpwsh eivai vomimh, tote h astuvomia exei ka8hkov va npostateuei KAI
autous nou tis kavouv (giatpous kai egkuous guvaikes). H astuvomia dev exei
ka8hkov va kavei auta nou esu vomizeis oti npenei va kavei. Av ovtws alla3ei
o vomos, tote h astuvomia npenei va efapmosei tov vomo, kai va kuvhghsei tous
napavomouvtes, ave3apthta av oi idioi oi astuvomikoi 'sumfwvouv' me tov vomo,
h' av egw sumfwvw me tov vomo.
>Alla pou na to peis auto se drapetes ths
>ektrwshs; Skopos ths astunomias einai na kunhga tous apatewnes kai tous
>prattontes h8ika egklhmata kata ths koinwnias!
'h8ika egklhmata kata ths koivwvias'? Gia kave eva opismo edw. Dev h3epa oti h
astuvomia exei tetoies dikaiodosies. Poios anofasizei ti eivai kai ti dev
eivai 'h8iko egklhma kata ths koivwvias'? Dhladh av o vomos leei oti h ektpwsh
dev eivai egklhma, h astuvomia npenei va npattei avaloga me tis dikes ths
avtilhyeis nepi tou ti eivai kai ti dev eivai 'h8iko egklhma kata ths
koivwvias'. Gvwpizeis fusika oti oi diafopoi 'Zhsiadhdes' 8ewpousav oti
enpattav e8vikh euepgesia otav kuvhgousav, ektonizav, e3opizav, basavizav h'
skotwvav Koumouvistes. _KAI_ gia megala xpovika diasthmata eixav kai tov vomo
me to mepos tous!!!! Avti va me bpizeis xudaia, kalo 8a htav va skeftosouva
ligaki tis suveneies twv 8esewv sou sto sugkekpimevo 8ema gevikotepa. Poswv
xpovwv eisai, ev nasei nepintwsei? Poso kaipo hsouva sthv KNE?
>> > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
>>
>> Xairetismata,
>> Kyros
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Phidias Bourlas
Xwris va apofaivomai, av mporw va apofav8w, safws gia to pote kata tn
gvwmn mou prepei va epitrepetai n ektrwsn, dev mporw va mnv sxoliasw
merika pragmata pou mou faivovtai e3wfrevika.
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> Asteras Amaliadas writes:
> >Mporw omws na se bebaiwsw
> >oti einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos!
>
> E, kai? Kai h mapgapita eivai evas teleios zwvtavos opgavismos. Mhnws npenei
> va ths zhthsoume thv gvwmh, h' thv gvwmh sou, gia to av 8a thv koyoume thv
> Ppwtomagia?
>
Ti epixeirnma eivai pali touto;! Evas av8rwpivos orgavismos, eav
eivai "teleios zwvtavos orgavismos" eivai av8rwpos. (Oxi, eva av8rwpivo
embruo eivai... kotopoulo!)
>
> Papakatw, ti so'i teleios zwvtavos opgavismos eivai, afou dev
> mnopei va enizhsei xwpis thv mava?
>
To erwtnma loipov eivai kata posov eivai teleios zwvtavos
orgavismos, suvepws av8rwpos, to embruo. Pavtws oute ta mwra mporouv
va epiznsouv xwris tnv mava. Auto dev snmaivei omws oti epitrepetai
va skotwvoume ta mwra. (Kai fusika to embruo dev eivai av8rwpos eva
deuterolepto afou bgei apo tnv koilia, evw duo deuterolepta priv
ntav... futo!)
>
> > Me ekplhktikous mhxanismous
> >ru8mishs klp. Den 3erw an auto to prama legetai an8rwpos!
>
> Ti dev 3epeis. 3epeis. Dev legetai av8pwnos.
>
Giati oxi; Aplws epeidn boleuei kapoious; Poia eivai ta kritnria
mas;
>
> > 3erw omws oti to
> >na bazeis gia krthrio tou ti einai an8rwpos tis egkefalikes leitourgies,
> >tote kaneis kati 100% au8aireto!
>
> Avte nali? Ma noio kpithpio _DEN_ eivai 'au8aipeto'? Enishs, oi _idioi- sou
> einav oti vai, to kpithpio auto eivai 'au8aipeto' alla kai koivws anodekto
> (plausible, and socially accepted). Av esu eisai ikavos va neiseis tous allous
> va givei to diko sou 'au8aipeto' kpithpio koivws anodekto, mnpabo sou, magkia
> sou, netuxes. Alloiws, naizoume thv koloku8ia.
>
To pio profaves kritnrio (xwris va isxurizomai oti kat' avagknv
prepei auto to kritnrio va eivai to apodekto) eivai fusika n sullnyn.
Ekei uparxei n pio safns diaxwristikn grammn. Meta n e3eli3n eivai
suvexns kai dev uparxei kapou mia safns diaxwristikn grammn. Opote
8elei polln suzntnsn gia to pote kai poia eivai ta oria pou mporoume
va 8esoume. Apo tn stigmn tns sullnyns, 8a mporouse va pei kapoios,
uparxei ndn prodiagegrammevn n metepeita e3eli3n se oloklnrwmevo
av8rwpo, opote ti8etai ndn eva n8iko zntnma. Xwris va snmaivei ka8olou
omws auto avagkastika oti apo tote n ektrwsn eivai aparadektn.
>
> Dev unapxouv 'unosthpiktes ths
> ektpwshs'. Unapxouv unosthpiktes tou dikaiwmatos ths guvaikas va elegxei to
> swma ths.
>
Autn eivai sofisteia suvexws epavalambavomevn, n opoia dev
leei tipota. Apo pou' ki ws pou' eivai to embruo swma tns; Eivai
ave3artntos orgavismos, me to diko tou idiaitero DNA, pou aplws
filo3eveitai kai trefetai apo tnv mntera.
>
> Dev unapxei kaveis nou va leei oti eivai npotimoteph h ektpwsh ano
> thv 'npolhyh' sullhyhs kai kuofopias. Alla, ama napei h 'koivwvia' kai to
> 'kpatos' to dikaiwma va eniballei stis guvaikes va fepouv eis nepav ka8e
> egkumosuvh. tote zhtw nou xesthkame. Ligo apgotepa 8a exei kai to dikaiwma va
> eniballei steipwsh h' anoxh ano suvousia.
>
Opws stnv Kiva e; Alla ti sxesn exei to eva me t' allo;
>
> >Sto katw-katw o Karagewrghs, o Zissiadhs, o Papadhmhtrioou akoma kai twra
> >den exoun aneptugmenes egkefalikes drasthriothtes! Na tous skotwsoume
> >loipon, afou "den einai an8rwpoi";
>
> Exeis to dikaiwma ths gvwmhs sou. To gegovos oti oute esu, oute h koivwvia
> oloklhph exete to dikaiwma va me skotwsete giati kata thv gvwmh kai ektimhshs
> sas 'dev eimai av8pwnos' se evav logiko kai sobapo suzhthth 8a metpouse, kai
> 8a tou edive thv eukaipia va katalabei oti dianpagmateuetai eva 8ema gia to
> onoio dev exei thv anapaithth naideia kai thv anapaithth vhfaliothta. P'ws se
> avexovtav sthv KNE, akoma dev mnopw va to katalabw. Giati exw apketous filous
> npwhn KNITES, kai eivai, nepav ideologiwv, sobapoi suzhthtes kai skentomevoi
> av8pwnoi. Esu npenei va eisai h e3aipesh nou enibebaiwvei tov kavova.
>
Katse, to erwtnma exei kapoia logikn. Dioti n' krivoume tov fovo
aparadekto kai tov apagoreuoume gevika n' oxi. Dioti eav leme, twra
mas boleuei va kavoume fovo, giati oxi, tote dev 3ereis pou' 8a
kataln3oume. Suvepws, fusika kai exei dikaiwma n politeia va
epembaivei. Mnpws epitrepetai duo goveis va peta3ouv to mwro tous
sta skoupidia; Giati tous to apagoreuei n politeia; Se poiov 8a
leiyei to mwro, dev 8a parei xampari kaveis ti egive, as kavoume
oti dev gevvn8nke kav. Meta mporei va doume oti mas boleuei va
mporoume va apallasome8a apo kapoious allous evoxlntikous, opws mas
boleuei kai to va mporoume va apallasome8a apo ta evoxlntika mwra
mas, ta opoia periorizouv tnv eleu8eria mas. (Eipame, giati va ta
frovtizoume, mas periorizouv tnv eleu8eria mas, dev exoume to dikaiwma
va dia8etoume to to swma mas opou 8eloume, diko mas dev eivai to swma
mas; Parata to to mwro!) Apofasisame loipov ws koivwvia oti o fovos,
n afairesn tn zwns tou opoioudnpote av8rwpou, xwris e3airesn, dev
epitrepetai, eite auto boleuei kapoious eite oxi. Ara to movo
8ema pou ti8etai eivai kata posov kai apo pote eivai to embruo
av8rwpos. Eav eivai tote dev epitrepetai va to skotwsoume. Kai to
eav eivai prepei va to apofasisoume me ousiastika kai avtikeimevika
kritnria, oxi basei movo tou pote mas boleuei va eivai av8rwpos.
Eav kavoume to teleutaio, gousto mas 8a pei kapoios, n n8ikn mas eivai
autn pou emeis orizoume. Sumfwvoi. Eivai omws to idio me to va pouv
kapoioi alloi, emas mas boleuei kai orizoume oti oi kommouvistes n' oi
e8vikistes n' oi Tourkoi, oi Ebraioi, oi Ellnves dev eivai av8rwpoi.
>
> >Den eipa pou8ena na mhn uparxei antisullhyh! Diabase ta mhnumata mou, kai
> >mhn bazeis sto stoma mou koubentes pou den eipa! Malista, eipa oti einai
> >fanatikos upermaxos ths antisullhyhs! Auto pou eipa einai: Kante o,ti
> >mporeite na apofugete mia egkumosunh! An apotuxete, tote kalodexoumenh h
> >nea zwh!
>
> Na ta uio8ethseis esu loinov kai osoi sumfwvouv mazi sou ola ta 'a8elhta'
> veogva! Giati 8eleis va enibaleis tis nposwnikes sou anoyeis stous allous?
>
Gia oles tis pra3eis mas prepei va apodexomaste tis eu8uves mas,
opoies eivai autes oi eu8uves, 8eloume dev 8eloume. Kai to 3eroume
apo priv auto, opote avalambavoume ta riska kai prattoume avalogws.
Kai oi oikogeveies me paidia fusika kai prepei va evisxuovtai.
Poios eipe to avti8eto; Ti sxesn exei auto me ta dikaiwmata twv
paidiwv;
>
> > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
>
> Stavros N. Karageorgis
>
F.M.
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Stavros N Karageorgis <kara...@ucla.edu> wrote:
: Avte pe avegkefale nou 8a mou kaveis kai kpitikh sthv diavoia mou esu! Ama
: eisai esu bpwmostomos, givomai kai egw. Ama 8es va kavoume sobaph koubevta va
: eisai sobapos. To 'st'apxidia mou' dev to xphsimonoihsa ws bpisia, alla ws
: suvtomh anavthsh. Oloi mou bazouv xepi oti makphgopw. Ama 8eleis kavovikh
: anavthsh sou divw. Dev exeis oute esu nposwnika, oute h nleiyhfia, oute h
: koivwvia oloklhph to dikaiwma va kaveis/kavei koumavto sto swma evos allou
: av8pwnou. Apa loinov, il m'est absoluement egale, I couldn't care less, koivws
: ST'APXIDIA MOU, oi anoyeis sou nepi tou 8ematos. Esu me to swma sou kai to
: snepma sou va kaveis oti 8eleis. Sto diko kai twv allwv to swma, TIPOTA xwpis
: thv sugkata8esh mas. Katalabes?
Re malaka Karageorgi, mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia h narkotita;
Sobarologis re ilithie me tin nootropia "my body, my right" ton
feministon; Kai an nai pes mas giati o diaxorismos (alla gnorizo idi oti
esi malon simfonis me tin nomimopiisi kai ton narkotikon kai tis
autoktonias)!
Ase... protos tha etrexes (san "proodeutikos" pou eisai) na sosis tin zoi
enos katadikou (pou distixos stin Ellada den ekteloume), para tin athoa
zoi enos embriou. Toso ipokritis eisai esi kathe malakas me teties
apopsis.
YG: Min apantisis. Den perni dialogo to thema.
: Stavros N. Karageorgis
: kara...@ucla.edu
YG2: Akoma sto ucla, re? Re traba bgale kana merokamato... kai ase tis
philosophies!
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'The shortest straw has been pulled for you...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Phidias Bourlas wrote:
>
> Xwris va apofaivomai, av mporw va apofav8w, safws gia to pote kata tn
> gvwmn mou prepei va epitrepetai n ektrwsn, dev mporw va mnv sxoliasw
> merika pragmata pou mou faivovtai e3wfrevika.
>
> Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> > Asteras Amaliadas writes:
> > >Mporw omws na se bebaiwsw
> > >oti einai enas teleios zwntanos organismos!
> >
> > E, kai? Kai h mapgapita eivai evas teleios zwvtavos opgavismos. Mhnws npenei
> > va ths zhthsoume thv gvwmh, h' thv gvwmh sou, gia to av 8a thv koyoume thv
> > Ppwtomagia?
> >
> Ti epixeirnma eivai pali touto;! Evas av8rwpivos orgavismos, eav
> eivai "teleios zwvtavos orgavismos" eivai av8rwpos. (Oxi, eva av8rwpivo
> embruo eivai... kotopoulo!)
Oxi bebaia... Ejartatai kat'arxas apo to ti ennoeis teleios. Ti
diaforopoiei ton an0rwpo apo ta zwa, ti ton kanei *politika* an0rwpo?
Profanws oi egkefalikes tou leitourgies. Mexri na tis anaptujei profanws
den einai poliths kai profanws den
exei kat'anagkh *an0rwpina* dikawmata. To an0rwpos edw den exei mia
afhrhmenh biologikh
ennoia, alla mallon mia "nomikh"....
> >
> > Papakatw, ti so'i teleios zwvtavos opgavismos eivai, afou dev
> > mnopei va enizhsei xwpis thv mava?
> >
> To erwtnma loipov eivai kata posov eivai teleios zwvtavos
> orgavismos, suvepws av8rwpos, to embruo. Pavtws oute ta mwra mporouv
> va epiznsouv xwris tnv mava. Auto dev snmaivei omws oti epitrepetai
> va skotwvoume ta mwra. (Kai fusika to embruo dev eivai av8rwpos eva
> deuterolepto afou bgei apo tnv koilia, evw duo deuterolepta priv
> ntav... futo!)
Ta mwra mporoun na epibiwsoun an ta dwseis se kapoion allo na ta
0refei. Ena embruo sta
prwta stadia ths anaptujhs tou den mporei na epibiwsei ejw apo to swma
ths mhteras tou.
Ws ek toutou -isxurizomai- to embruo den einai autonomo biologika... Oso
gia to pote
to embruo einai an0rwpos, einai fusika adunaton na oriseis thn stigmh,
ka0oti milame
gia mia *sunexh* ejelijh, alla einai "eukolo" na deis oti otan to embruo
einai duo
kuttara den einai "an0rwpos"... Oso gia ta krithria nomimothtas, ta mona
logika gia
mena (kai auth einai proswpikh ektimhsh) einai to pote to embruo einai
ikano na epibiwsei ejw apo to swma ths mhtreras tou kai/h' pote
anaptussei ton egkefaliko floio.
>
> >
> > > Me ekplhktikous mhxanismous
> > >ru8mishs klp. Den 3erw an auto to prama legetai an8rwpos!
> >
> > Ti dev 3epeis. 3epeis. Dev legetai av8pwnos.
> >
> Giati oxi; Aplws epeidn boleuei kapoious; Poia eivai ta kritnria
> mas;
Parapanw sou anaferw duo...
>
> >
> > > 3erw omws oti to
> > >na bazeis gia krthrio tou ti einai an8rwpos tis egkefalikes leitourgies,
> > >tote kaneis kati 100% au8aireto!
> >
> > Avte nali? Ma noio kpithpio _DEN_ eivai 'au8aipeto'? Enishs, oi _idioi- sou
> > einav oti vai, to kpithpio auto eivai 'au8aipeto' alla kai koivws anodekto
> > (plausible, and socially accepted). Av esu eisai ikavos va neiseis tous allous
> > va givei to diko sou 'au8aipeto' kpithpio koivws anodekto, mnpabo sou, magkia
> > sou, netuxes. Alloiws, naizoume thv koloku8ia.
> >
> To pio profaves kritnrio (xwris va isxurizomai oti kat' avagknv
> prepei auto to kritnrio va eivai to apodekto) eivai fusika n sullnyn.
Ena pi0ano krithrio einai h sullhpsh, an kai den eimai sigouros oti
einai pio profanes
apo thn gennhsh l.x.
> Ekei uparxei n pio safns diaxwristikn grammn. Meta n e3eli3n eivai
> suvexns kai dev uparxei kapou mia safns diaxwristikn grammn. Opote
> 8elei polln suzntnsn gia to pote kai poia eivai ta oria pou mporoume
> va 8esoume. Apo tn stigmn tns sullnyns, 8a mporouse va pei kapoios,
> uparxei ndn prodiagegrammevn n metepeita e3eli3n se oloklnrwmevo
> av8rwpo, opote ti8etai ndn eva n8iko zntnma.
H se duo h se treis... Thn stigmh ths sullhpshs den einai profanes oti
to paidaki
0a einai ena, opote duskola mporeis na tou apodwseis atomikothta... To
"en dunamei"
an0rwpos emena den me pei0ei, kai to spermatozwario einai "en dunamei
an0rwpos" alla
pisteuw oti sumfwnoume oti den mporei na xarkthrhstei an0rwpos.
> Xwris va snmaivei ka8olou
> omws auto avagkastika oti apo tote n ektrwsn eivai aparadektn.
>
> >
> > Dev unapxouv 'unosthpiktes ths
> > ektpwshs'. Unapxouv unosthpiktes tou dikaiwmatos ths guvaikas va elegxei to
> > swma ths.
> >
> Autn eivai sofisteia suvexws epavalambavomevn, n opoia dev
> leei tipota. Apo pou' ki ws pou' eivai to embruo swma tns;
An apokopei apo to swma ths 0a pe0anei.
> Eivai
> ave3artntos orgavismos, me to diko tou idiaitero DNA, pou aplws
> filo3eveitai kai trefetai apo tnv mntera.
H filojenia proupo0etei thn sugkata0esh tou filojenountos.
>
> >
> > Dev unapxei kaveis nou va leei oti eivai npotimoteph h ektpwsh ano
> > thv 'npolhyh' sullhyhs kai kuofopias. Alla, ama napei h 'koivwvia' kai to
> > 'kpatos' to dikaiwma va eniballei stis guvaikes va fepouv eis nepav ka8e
> > egkumosuvh. tote zhtw nou xesthkame. Ligo apgotepa 8a exei kai to dikaiwma va
> > eniballei steipwsh h' anoxh ano suvousia.
> >
> Opws stnv Kiva e; Alla ti sxesn exei to eva me t' allo;
>
Opws exw pei se prohgoumeno posting: 'H logikh tou kathforou einai o
patos', an dwseis
sto kratos to dikaiwma na "nomo0etei" tis proswpikes sou protimhseis
zhtw pou kahkame
opws leei ki o Stauros.
> >
> > >Sto katw-katw o Karagewrghs, o Zissiadhs, o Papadhmhtrioou akoma kai twra
> > >den exoun aneptugmenes egkefalikes drasthriothtes! Na tous skotwsoume
> > >loipon, afou "den einai an8rwpoi";
> >
> > Exeis to dikaiwma ths gvwmhs sou. To gegovos oti oute esu, oute h koivwvia
> > oloklhph exete to dikaiwma va me skotwsete giati kata thv gvwmh kai ektimhshs
> > sas 'dev eimai av8pwnos' se evav logiko kai sobapo suzhthth 8a metpouse, kai
> > 8a tou edive thv eukaipia va katalabei oti dianpagmateuetai eva 8ema gia to
> > onoio dev exei thv anapaithth naideia kai thv anapaithth vhfaliothta. P'ws se
> > avexovtav sthv KNE, akoma dev mnopw va to katalabw. Giati exw apketous filous
> > npwhn KNITES, kai eivai, nepav ideologiwv, sobapoi suzhthtes kai skentomevoi
> > av8pwnoi. Esu npenei va eisai h e3aipesh nou enibebaiwvei tov kavova.
> >
> Katse, to erwtnma exei kapoia logikn. Dioti n' krivoume tov fovo
> aparadekto kai tov apagoreuoume gevika n' oxi.
Katse: kat'arxhn o fonos den einai genika apagoreumenos. Ston polemo
0ewreitai areth.
An skotwsw kapoion en amunei einai anektos. An skotwsei o mpatsos
kapoion kakomoirh
edw sto USA arkei na deijei oti htan upo "logikh apeilh". Ase pou edw
ekteloun kosmo
aberta.... Opote uparxei hdh megalo lasko.
> Dioti eav leme, twra
> mas boleuei va kavoume fovo, giati oxi, tote dev 3ereis pou' 8a
> kataln3oume. Suvepws, fusika kai exei dikaiwma n politeia va
> epembaivei. Mnpws epitrepetai duo goveis va peta3ouv to mwro tous
> sta skoupidia; Giati tous to apagoreuei n politeia; Se poiov 8a
> leiyei to mwro, dev 8a parei xampari kaveis ti egive, as kavoume
> oti dev gevvn8nke kav. Meta mporei va doume oti mas boleuei va
> mporoume va apallasome8a apo kapoious allous evoxlntikous, opws mas
> boleuei kai to va mporoume va apallasome8a apo ta evoxlntika mwra
> mas, ta opoia periorizouv tnv eleu8eria mas. (Eipame, giati va ta
> frovtizoume, mas periorizouv tnv eleu8eria mas, dev exoume to dikaiwma
> va dia8etoume to to swma mas opou 8eloume, diko mas dev eivai to swma
> mas; Parata to to mwro!) Apofasisame loipov ws koivwvia oti o fovos,
> n afairesn tn zwns tou opoioudnpote av8rwpou, xwris e3airesn, dev
> epitrepetai, eite auto boleuei kapoious eite oxi. Ara to movo
> 8ema pou ti8etai eivai kata posov kai apo pote eivai to embruo
> av8rwpos. Eav eivai tote dev epitrepetai va to skotwsoume. Kai to
> eav eivai prepei va to apofasisoume me ousiastika kai avtikeimevika
> kritnria, oxi basei movo tou pote mas boleuei va eivai av8rwpos.
> Eav kavoume to teleutaio, gousto mas 8a pei kapoios, n n8ikn mas eivai
> autn pou emeis orizoume. Sumfwvoi. Eivai omws to idio me to va pouv
> kapoioi alloi, emas mas boleuei kai orizoume oti oi kommouvistes n' oi
> e8vikistes n' oi Tourkoi, oi Ebraioi, oi Ellnves dev eivai av8rwpoi.
Sumfwnw me to skeptiko. To embruo apokta stadiaka "an0rwpinh upostash"
kai gi'auto
kai to problhma ufistatai. Alla to "apoktw stadiaka" den shmainei "thn
eixa ej arxhs"
etsi.
>
> >
> > >Den eipa pou8ena na mhn uparxei antisullhyh! Diabase ta mhnumata mou, kai
> > >mhn bazeis sto stoma mou koubentes pou den eipa! Malista, eipa oti einai
> > >fanatikos upermaxos ths antisullhyhs! Auto pou eipa einai: Kante o,ti
> > >mporeite na apofugete mia egkumosunh! An apotuxete, tote kalodexoumenh h
> > >nea zwh!
> >
> > Na ta uio8ethseis esu loinov kai osoi sumfwvouv mazi sou ola ta 'a8elhta'
> > veogva! Giati 8eleis va enibaleis tis nposwnikes sou anoyeis stous allous?
> >
> Gia oles tis pra3eis mas prepei va apodexomaste tis eu8uves mas,
> opoies eivai autes oi eu8uves, 8eloume dev 8eloume. Kai to 3eroume
> apo priv auto, opote avalambavoume ta riska kai prattoume avalogws.
> Kai oi oikogeveies me paidia fusika kai prepei va evisxuovtai.
> Poios eipe to avti8eto; Ti sxesn exei auto me ta dikaiwmata twv
> paidiwv;
>
> >
> > > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> >
> > Stavros N. Karageorgis
> >
> F.M.
Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Mihalis Panagiotakis
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
> mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
> kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia
Profanws oxi... kataraxas den exei pollous tropous na to elegjei (pws
0a se timwrhsei;
0a se ektelesei;) kai kata deuteron sou euxomai na mhn deis pote suggenh
sou na parakala
na pe0anei (logw ponou)... 0a se metepei0e parauta.
>h narkotita;
Oi monoi pou sthrizoun thn apagoreush twn narkwtikwn (pou exoun
xrhmatiko sumferon na to kanoun) einai oi megaloparagwgoi kai oi
emporoi.
> Sobarologis re ilithie me tin nootropia "my body, my right" ton
> feministon; Kai an nai pes mas giati o diaxorismos (alla gnorizo idi oti
> esi malon simfonis me tin nomimopiisi kai ton narkotikon kai tis
> autoktonias)!
Den jerw gia ton "hli0io" alla egw sumfwnw...
>
> Ase... protos tha etrexes (san "proodeutikos" pou eisai) na sosis tin zoi
> enos katadikou (pou distixos stin Ellada den ekteloume), para tin athoa
> zoi enos embriou.
Nai kai blepoume poso apotelesmatika meiwnoun oi ekteleseis thn
egklhmatikothta
stis HPA otan sugkrinoume thn eglhmatikothta me authn ths Elladas. Mhn
arxisw twra
gia tis ekteleseis.... Oso gia thn "a0wa zwh enos embruou" to 0ema pou
suzhtame edw
einai an to "embruo einai an0rwpos, me plhrh dikaiwmata h' oxi", opote
ta slogkan twn diaforwn amerikanwn papatzhdwn ths 0rhskeutikothtas den
exoun kammia 0esh sthn suzhthsh.
> Toso ipokritis eisai esi kathe malakas me teties
> apopsis.
>
> YG: Min apantisis. Den perni dialogo to thema.
Apanthsa egw gi'auton...
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> wrote:
:> mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
:> kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia
:
: Profanws oxi... kataraxas den exei pollous tropous na to elegjei (pws
Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
"apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
: 0a se timwrhsei;
: 0a se ektelesei;) kai kata deuteron sou euxomai na mhn deis pote suggenh
: sou na parakala na pe0anei (logw ponou)... 0a se metepei0e parauta.
Ola ta... sterotipika tha mas peta3eis simera! Kai ena 18xrono koritsi
mporei na se karakala na pathanei... kantis lipon to xari (h dose tis to
dikeoma - nomima - na mpei se kliniki kai na parei mia thanatiki dosi).
Kala sobarologite eseis oi "proodeutiki", h mpas kai pasxete apo
egkefaliki diataraxi;
:>h narkotita;
:
: Oi monoi pou sthrizoun thn apagoreush twn narkwtikwn (pou exoun
: xrhmatiko sumferon na to kanoun) einai oi megaloparagwgoi kai oi
: emporoi.
H pliopsifia ton Ellinon, thriskeutikon, politikon, stratiotikon, klp,
einai oloi tous "megaloparagogoi kai emporoi" (gia na ipostirizoun tin
apagooreusi); Kai pali se roto, SOBAROLOGEIS;;;
:> Sobarologis re ilithie me tin nootropia "my body, my right" ton
:> feministon; Kai an nai pes mas giati o diaxorismos (alla gnorizo idi oti
:> esi malon simfonis me tin nomimopiisi kai ton narkotikon kai tis
:> autoktonias)!
:
: Den jerw gia ton "hli0io" alla egw sumfwnw...
Kai leei auto arketa gia opion simfonei me ton Karageorgi!
:> Ase... protos tha etrexes (san "proodeutikos" pou eisai) na sosis tin zoi
:> enos katadikou (pou distixos stin Ellada den ekteloume), para tin athoa
:> zoi enos embriou.
:
: Nai kai blepoume poso apotelesmatika meiwnoun oi ekteleseis thn
: egklhmatikothta stis HPA otan sugkrinoume thn eglhmatikothta me authn
: ths Elladas. Mhn
Apofeugeis blepis to gegonos oti ontos esi kai h omoideates sou
apaxthaneste tis ektelesis katadikon (adiakrita gia to poso
"apotelesmatikes" einai h oxi). Kai auto to kanete OXI giati den einai
apotelesmatikes, alla dioti tis apokalite "barbares" kai mi-ithikes! Tin
idia stigmi malista pou tetia epixirimata apo autous pou theloun tin
katargisi ton ambloseon "geliopiounte"!
: arxisw twra gia tis ekteleseis.... Oso gia thn "a0wa zwh enos embruou"
: to 0ema pou suzhtame edw einai an to "embruo einai an0rwpos, me plhrh
: dikaiwmata h' oxi", opote
Den nomizo oti zitise kaneis "pliri dikeomata" gia ena embrio (as tous
bgazoume kai diabatiria dld, kai as psifizoun)! Oti dikeoma exoun (zois),
tous to dinei h FYSH (Theos). To thema lipon einai pios dinei to dikeoma
se mia gineka h malon giatro na SKOTOSI auton ton organismo! An den
gnorizeis, stin Ellada apagoreuete h thanatosi (kinigi) arketon "telion
organismon" (arkoudes klp.). As prostatepsoume kai to "endangered species"
pou legete Ellinismos!
: ta slogkan twn diaforwn amerikanwn papatzhdwn ths 0rhskeutikothtas den
: exoun kammia 0esh sthn suzhthsh.
Sosta, opos den exoun kai auta ton "PC liberal left-wing fruits". :)
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Nikos Efentakis
Stavros N Karageorgis <kara...@ucla.edu> wrote in article
<karageor.30...@ucla.edu>...
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980509225808.19109B-100000@bute> Asteras
Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
> <snip>
>
> >An kai den katalabes la8os, 3exnas mia koubenta pou 8a pw gia 4h fora,
gia
> >xarh sou:
>
> Gia xiliosth fopa; stis npwtes sou vu3eis nepi tou 8ematos, e8eses ws
> enixeiphma unep ths anagopeushs kai noivikonoihshs twv ektpwsewv to oti
> suvtelouv sthv 'anwleia' shmavtikou api8mou mellovtwv favtapwv. O Kupos,
me
> unomovh agiou, sou enavalambavei oti me authv th logikh kai h avtisullhyh
> npenei va anogopeutei kai va noivikonoih8ei, dioti exei akpibws ta idia
h'
> isxupotepa anotelesmata meiwshs tou nlh8usmou twv stpateusimwv vewv.
>
Nomizw oti h suzhthsh sxetika me ta strateusima neiata prepei na
stamateisei.
Egw exw duo paidia, ki oxi to strato de skeutomai, alla ki ean ton
skeftomai to kanw me tromo. Pana8ema, na megalwnei kaneis paidia gia na
pe8anoun se kapoio polemo pou anoi3an 8ermokefaloi (ta paidia twn opoiwn
pali kapou 8a loufaroun...)?
> 'h8ika egklhmata kata ths koivwvias'? Gia kave eva opismo edw. Dev h3epa
oti h
> astuvomia exei tetoies dikaiodosies. Poios anofasizei ti eivai kai ti dev
> eivai 'h8iko egklhma kata ths koivwvias'?
Anoi3ame mia suzhthsh pou einai endiaferousa. Kai paramenei endiaferousa
giati de summetexoun ta upoloipa parepidhmounta fasistoeidh. Sumfwnw me ton
Karagiwrgh as leipoun oi xarakthrismoi.
Twra, exw ki egw kapoia erwthmata pou peiplekoun thn katastash.
Sthn prospa8eia orismou thw stigmhs pou to embruo ginetai an8rwpos
anaferame kai thn egkefalikh leitourgia. Auto einai teleiws la8os.
Skeftetai kaneis oti exei to dikaiwma na skotwsei ena dianohtika
ka8usterhmeno an8rwpo?
To 8ema einai pragmati "H8IKO'. Poias h8ikhs omws kai poianou?
Egw nomizw oti o an8rwpos de mporei na oristei e3w apo tis sxeseis tou me
thn koinwnia kai tous upoloipous an8rwpous. To embruo den exei oikodomhsei
tetoies sxeseis. Den einai an8rwpos. ki auto to kanei pio eukolo 8uma. Oxi
oti diafwnw me tis ektrwseis, apla anagnwrizw oti einai mia me8odos amunas,
to mikrotero kako.
De skotwneis enan an8rwpo. "O anurwpos einai on politiko" (koinwniko...).
Akoma ki h gonikh agaph dhmiourgeitai siga-siga mesa apo thn ka8hmerinh
zwh. Den prokuptei h agaph apo to DNA (allwste posoi antres einai sigouroi
oti to paidi tous ferei ta dika tous gonidia...).
> Dhladh av o vomos leei oti h ektpwsh
> dev eivai egklhma, h astuvomia npenei va npattei avaloga me tis dikes ths
> avtilhyeis nepi tou ti eivai kai ti dev eivai 'h8iko egklhma kata ths
> koivwvias'. Gvwpizeis fusika oti oi diafopoi 'Zhsiadhdes' 8ewpousav oti
> enpattav e8vikh euepgesia otav kuvhgousav, ektonizav, e3opizav, basavizav
h'
> skotwvav Koumouvistes. _KAI_ gia megala xpovika diasthmata eixav kai tov
vomo
> me to mepos tous!!!! Avti va me bpizeis xudaia, kalo 8a htav va
skeftosouva
> ligaki tis suveneies twv 8esewv sou sto sugkekpimevo 8ema gevikotepa.
Poswv
> xpovwv eisai, ev nasei nepintwsei? Poso kaipo hsouva sthv KNE?
>
Periergo, anamesa sta fasistoeidh tosoi KNites!
Nikos
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
...
>Wraia. Paradexesai loipon oti einai au8aireta auta ta krithria kai oti
>telika to 8ema einai en telh politiko kai filosofiko (kai egw pros8etw kai
>biologiko).
Astera, eisai filosofika kara-asxetos. Oudeis SKOPOS TOU
ANQRWPOU kaqorizetai apo thn episthmh. H episthmh to polu
na sou pei poso eukolo h' duskolo einai kapoios skopos
tou anqrwpou na pragmatopoihqei.
>Akou loipon ti 8a sou pei enas episthmonas: To embruo den einai
>"susswmatwma kuttarwn" oute sto stadio twn duo kuttarwn (pou to zugwto
>exei diaire8ei sta duo)! H ennoia "susswmatwma" einai akrws
>apoprosanatolistikh! Sta kuttara auta den ginetai TIPOTE tuxaia! Anti8eta,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>oi mhxanismoi gonidiakhs ri8mishs kai ekfrashs einai ekplhktikoi!
Eisai kai gamw tous kara-asxetous, KAI episthmonika. Kala lene polloi
oti oi shmerinoi biologoi qumizoun tous fusikous tou prohgoumenou
aiwna. Einai nteterministes kai anagwgistes tou kerata. Souper-
malakes. (Eksaireseis einai elaxistes). Tipote den einai _apolutws_
tuxaio, opws kai tipote den einai _apolutws_ nteterministiko. H
tuxaiothta parembainei se kaqe stoixeiwdes kbantiko sumban, dhladh
_pantou_. Mono pou den einai _iso_-tuxaiothta, alla "shmademenh"
tuxaiothta,- dhladh, stous megalous statistika ariqmous, uparxei
ena toulaxiston topiko megisto sth katanomh piqanothtwn. (Eimai
sigouros oti apo piqanothtes eisai karablaxos,- sou fainetai ston
tropo pou suzhtas).
>Na gamietai h allh 3erei, na analabei tis eu8unes ths omws oxi;
Poies einai oi "euqunes" ths, re karamalaka;! Mhpws qelei kaneis
na kanei amblwseis;! H' mhpws kaneis pou odhgei autokinhto qelei
na pesei quma troxaiou;! (Isws na uparxoun kai teteia oufo, ola
einai piqana, alla oxi polupiqanika). Mhpws prepei na stamathsei
to gamhsi epeidh esu den to fxaristiesai;! Plhrwse thn 100 eka-
tomuria draxmes, gia kaqe paidi pou qa genobola, kai euxaristws
na sou to paradwsei pros uioqesia (tropos tou legein). Etsi qa
mporesei kai auth na exei paidia, otan kai ean pote ta qelhsei,
me plhrh eksasfalish ths kalozwias tous. Alla giati na exei
paidia sth mizeria; H' na ths apagorepseis thn euxaristhsh
tou seks; Mhpws eisai arxidofasistas kai den to ksereis;!
Grhgorhs
Kyros Hadjikyrou
In article <6j5fcm$1...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> wrote:
>:> mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
>:> kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia
>:
>: Profanws oxi... kataraxas den exei pollous tropous na to elegjei (pws
>
>Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
>"apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
>dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
>
Eivai pragmati paravomn n autoktovia stnv Ellada? Avtilambavomai oti n
orthodoksn paradosn tn thewrei amartia (me epiptwseis epi tns tafns klp)
alla avtavaklatai auto sto poiniko dikaio?
Parepiptovtws, to epixeirnma pio pavw mou faivetai lavthasmevo: to gegovos
pws (isws) yparxei evas kapoios vomos dev snmaivei pws n Politeia eixe to
dikaiwma va perasei tetoio vomo (gi'auto kai vomoi elegxovtai gia tn
syvtagmatikotnta tous)
>..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
>| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
>` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Xairetismata,
Kyros
Mihalis Panagiotakis
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
>
> Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> wrote:
> :> mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
> :> kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia
> :
> : Profanws oxi... kataraxas den exei pollous tropous na to elegjei (pws
>
> Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
> "apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
> dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
Opws polu swsta parathrhses h *apotuxhmenh* autoktonia einai "paranomh"
alla den jerw
kai pollous pou einai fulakh gia auton ton logo.... Auto pou bebaia
suzhtousame
einai oxi an epitrepetai nomika (poios einai o uparxwn nomos) alla an
exei to (h0iko
upo0etw) dikaiwma na to epiballei.
>
> : 0a se timwrhsei;
> : 0a se ektelesei;) kai kata deuteron sou euxomai na mhn deis pote suggenh
> : sou na parakala na pe0anei (logw ponou)... 0a se metepei0e parauta.
>
> Ola ta... sterotipika tha mas peta3eis simera! Kai ena 18xrono koritsi
> mporei na se karakala na pathanei... kantis lipon to xari (h dose tis to
> dikeoma - nomima - na mpei se kliniki kai na parei mia thanatiki dosi).
> Kala sobarologite eseis oi "proodeutiki", h mpas kai pasxete apo
> egkefaliki diataraxi;
An to *epi0umei* kai pragmati to 0elei: a) Den mporeis na thn
stamathseis outws h' allws b) To an 0a thn *epixorhghseis* h' 0a thn
en0arruneis einai profanws allo 0ema...
>
> :>h narkotita;
> :
> : Oi monoi pou sthrizoun thn apagoreush twn narkwtikwn (pou exoun
> : xrhmatiko sumferon na to kanoun) einai oi megaloparagwgoi kai oi
> : emporoi.
>
> H pliopsifia ton Ellinon, thriskeutikon, politikon, stratiotikon, klp,
> einai oloi tous "megaloparagogoi kai emporoi" (gia na ipostirizoun tin
> apagooreusi); Kai pali se roto, SOBAROLOGEIS;;;
Gia apofugh parejhghsewn epanadiatupwnw ta parapanw: Oi monoi pou
bgazoun lefta apo
thn apagoreush einai oi megalemporoi kai oi megaloparagwgoi (kai oi
trapezes pou
plenoun ta narkoxrhmata). Epipleon einai kai oi monoi pou exoun thn
dunatothta
na ephreazoun nomous kai katastaseis. H narko-usteria kai h apagoreush
exoun thn
idia epidrash pou eixe kai h apagoreush tou alkool stis HPA thn dekaetia
tou 20:
dhmiourgei kai isxuropoiei mafies, ploutizei diaf0armenous mpatsous kai
politikous
kai suneisferei sthn diaf0ora twn kubernwntwn. H koinh gnwmh fusika
bombardizetai
taktika me istories frikhs kai ka0e allo para sobarh enhmerwsh gia to
0ema kai
xeiragwgeitai wste na 0ewrei thn apagoreush ws thn monh lush. H
apagoreush ws me0odos
periorismou ths xrhshs exei apotuxei patagwdws pagkosmiws. To apotelesma
einai
oti logw genikhs daimonopoihshs, ta paidia pane apo thn (sxetika ablabh
- kai patroparadoth) founta, sthn hrwinh epeidh den exoun ma0ei na
jexwrizoun. To kentro
ths A0hnas (an rijeis mia matia gurw sou) exei ginei parko gia prezonia.
Apotelesmatikotath h apagoreush etsi;
>
> :> Ase... protos tha etrexes (san "proodeutikos" pou eisai) na sosis tin zoi
> :> enos katadikou (pou distixos stin Ellada den ekteloume), para tin athoa
> :> zoi enos embriou.
> :
> : Nai kai blepoume poso apotelesmatika meiwnoun oi ekteleseis thn
> : egklhmatikothta stis HPA otan sugkrinoume thn eglhmatikothta me authn
> : ths Elladas. Mhn
>
> Apofeugeis blepis to gegonos oti ontos esi kai h omoideates sou
> apaxthaneste tis ektelesis katadikon (adiakrita gia to poso
> "apotelesmatikes" einai h oxi).
Den jerw gia tou omoideates mou alla gia mena ta problhmata einai duo
me thn 0anatikh
katadikh a) Se periptwseis dikastikou sfalmatos den mporeis na
epanor0wseis (edw sthn
Florida duo tupoi htan 15 xronia sto "death row" prin apodeix0ei oti den
eixan kammia sxesh me thn dolofonia pou tous katalogizotan- kai twra
zhtane apozhmiwsh,
autoi thn glutwsane, posoi alloi exoun paei tzampa;) b) Den 0elw to
*kratos* na exei
ejousia zwhs kai 0anatou panw se kanenan polith.
> Kai auto to kanete OXI giati den einai
> apotelesmatikes, alla dioti tis apokalite "barbares" kai mi-ithikes!
Mpa, egw ws Krhtikos blepw me sumpa0eia kapoies periptwseis (barbarhs)
autodikias ;-)
To na dolofonei to *kratos* omws einai ektos ths dikaiodosias tou. Ase
pou skotwnei
*an0rwpous*.
> Tin
> idia stigmi malista pou tetia epixirimata apo autous pou theloun tin
> katargisi ton ambloseon "geliopiounte"!
E; gia janapesto auto dioti (sobara) den katalaba...
>
> : arxisw twra gia tis ekteleseis.... Oso gia thn "a0wa zwh enos embruou"
> : to 0ema pou suzhtame edw einai an to "embruo einai an0rwpos, me plhrh
> : dikaiwmata h' oxi", opote
>
> Den nomizo oti zitise kaneis "pliri dikeomata" gia ena embrio (as tous
> bgazoume kai diabatiria dld, kai as psifizoun)! Oti dikeoma exoun (zois),
> tous to dinei h FYSH (Theos).
Kala, ta 0rhskeutika sou pisteuw kala kaneis kai ta exeis. Ase ta omws
ejw apo thn suzhthsh giati den ta summerizomai. Oso gia to oti h fush
dinei *dikaiwma* zwhs
profanws astieuesai. Ta dikaiwmata einai an0rwpines efeureseis. H fush
sta kala tou
ka0oumenou petaei enan tufwna sto Mpagklantes kai ejafanizetai to
dikaiwma 200000
Mpagklantesianwn sthn zwh. To embruo exei akribws osa dikaiwmata tou
dinei h mana tou.
> To thema lipon einai pios dinei to dikeoma
> se mia gineka h malon giatro na SKOTOSI auton ton organismo! An den
> gnorizeis, stin Ellada apagoreuete h thanatosi (kinigi) arketon "telion
> organismon" (arkoudes klp.). As prostatepsoume kai to "endangered species"
> pou legete Ellinismos!
Opws exw anaferei kai allou, h susxethsh metaju ektrwsewn kai
gennhtikothtas einai
mallon mikrh (an uparxei kai ka0olou). An 0es na prostatepseis to
"endangered species"
pou legetai Ellhnismos, epixorhghse (sobara omws) tous poluteknous,
ftiaje kai *efarmose* nomous pou prostateuoun tis ergazomenes mhteres,
aujhse tous (asteious)
mis0ous ths pleiopshfias twn Ellhnwn, kai dwse kai stous paterades
"adeia patrothtas".
Na deis pou 0a paei h gennhtikothta...
Os gia tis arkoudes kala kanoun kai tis prostateuoun, mpas kai meinei
kai kanena dasos
sthn Ellada pou na mhn ginei ejoxikh bila. Auto twra ti sxesh exei me
tis ektrwseis;
>
> : ta slogkan twn diaforwn amerikanwn papatzhdwn ths 0rhskeutikothtas den
> : exoun kammia 0esh sthn suzhthsh.
>
> Sosta, opos den exoun kai auta ton "PC liberal left-wing fruits". :)
>
Nai bebaiws exw sunanthsei kanena duo apo autous (an kai gia to left
wing den eimai ka0olou sigouros -me ta dika mou stantar). Se diabebaiw
pantws oti se sxesh me tous
pouritanous, 0rhskolhptous, antidarbinikous, skotadistes, ratsistes, klp
frouta ths
amerikanikhs akrodejias, h akraia PC merida einai ari0mhtika elaxisth
kai praktika
xwris sobares ejousies.
A kai kati allo "liberal" stis HPA einai "kentrodejios" peripou sthn
Eurwph (toulaxiston se 0emata oikonomika) o Kohl einai sta aristera tou
Ted Kennedy gia paradeigma. Mhn mperdeuoume tous orous mas.
> --
> ..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
> | 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
> ` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Mixalhs Panagiwtakhs
Stavros N Karageorgis
>In article <6j5fcm$1...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
><dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>>Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> wrote:
>>:> mipos h politia den exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti na
>>:> kaneis sto "diko sou" to soma, se themata opos autoktonia
>>:
>>: Profanws oxi... kataraxas den exei pollous tropous na to elegjei (pws
>>
>>Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
>>"apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
>>dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
> Eivai pragmati paravomn n autoktovia stnv Ellada? Avtilambavomai oti n
>orthodoksn paradosn tn thewrei amartia (me epiptwseis epi tns tafns klp)
>alla avtavaklatai auto sto poiniko dikaio?
Ma twpa ti suzhtame: Estw oti eivai napavomh? Ti 8a kavei dhladh to kpatos av
enituxei? 8a kavei meta 8avatov dikh, kai 8a katadikasei tov/thv autoxeipa se
fulakish/ka8eip3h? H, av anotuxei, 8a dikasei kai katadikasei autov/hv nou
nposna8hse anotuxhmeva va autoktovhsei se fulakish/ka8eip3h?
> Parepiptovtws, to epixeirnma pio pavw mou faivetai lavthasmevo: to gegovos
>pws (isws) yparxei evas kapoios vomos dev snmaivei pws n Politeia eixe to
>dikaiwma va perasei tetoio vomo (gi'auto kai vomoi elegxovtai gia tn
>syvtagmatikotnta tous)
Tetoios vomos dev eivai anlws avtisuvtagmatikos, eivai kai avousios. O/h
autoxeip dev givetai va dikas8ei kai va katadikas8ei.
>>..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
>>| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
>>` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
>Xairetismata,
>Kyros
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Nikos Efentakis wrote:
>
> Stavros N Karageorgis <kara...@ucla.edu> wrote in article
> <karageor.30...@ucla.edu>...
> Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> writes:
> > <snip>
> >
> > >An kai den katalabes la8os, 3exnas mia koubenta pou 8a pw gia 4h fora,
> gia
> > >xarh sou:
> >
> > Gia xiliosth fopa; stis npwtes sou vu3eis nepi tou 8ematos, e8eses ws
> > enixeiphma unep ths anagopeushs kai noivikonoihshs twv ektpwsewv to oti
> > suvtelouv sthv 'anwleia' shmavtikou api8mou mellovtwv favtapwv. O Kupos,
> me
> > unomovh agiou, sou enavalambavei oti me authv th logikh kai h avtisullhyh
>
> > npenei va anogopeutei kai va noivikonoih8ei, dioti exei akpibws ta idia
> h'
> > isxupotepa anotelesmata meiwshs tou nlh8usmou twv stpateusimwv vewv.
> >
>
> stamateisei.
>
> Egw exw duo paidia, ki oxi to strato de skeutomai, alla ki ean ton
> skeftomai to kanw me tromo. Pana8ema, na megalwnei kaneis paidia gia na
> pe8anoun se kapoio polemo pou anoi3an 8ermokefaloi (ta paidia twn opoiwn
> pali kapou 8a loufaroun...)?
Sumfwnw kai epaujanw!
> Twra, exw ki egw kapoia erwthmata pou peiplekoun thn katastash.
>
> Sthn prospa8eia orismou thw stigmhs pou to embruo ginetai an8rwpos
> anaferame kai thn egkefalikh leitourgia. Auto einai teleiws la8os.
> Skeftetai kaneis oti exei to dikaiwma na skotwsei ena dianohtika
> ka8usterhmeno an8rwpo?
Koita Niko, o ka0usterhmenos an0rwpos *exei* anwteres egkefalikes
leitourgies!
Mporei na mhn leitourgoun plhrws alla exei! Kai einai anwteres apo autes
opoiodhpote
allou zwou. Yparxei poiotikh diafora metaju tou pleon ka0usterhmenou
an0rwpou kai
tou efuiesterou zwou. Ta krithria bebaia den einai kai den mporei na
einai mono
(h' kuriws) biologika, kai se auto sumfwnoume.
Mia kai aneferes omws ka0usterhmena paidia: posoi apo tous polemious
ths ektrwshs
0a to skeftotan sobara se periptwsh pou 0a mporousan na ma0oun nwris (px
mesa ston
prwto mhna ths kuhshs) oti to paidi tous 0a pasxei apo sundromo Down?
Exoun h den exoun
to dikaiwma na arnh0oun authn thn eu0unh ( giati peri terastias kai
ejairetika psux0f0oras eu0unhs prokeitai)?
>
> To 8ema einai pragmati "H8IKO'. Poias h8ikhs omws kai poianou?
>
> Egw nomizw oti o an8rwpos de mporei na oristei e3w apo tis sxeseis tou me
> thn koinwnia kai tous upoloipous an8rwpous. To embruo den exei oikodomhsei
> tetoies sxeseis. Den einai an8rwpos. ki auto to kanei pio eukolo 8uma. Oxi
> oti diafwnw me tis ektrwseis, apla anagnwrizw oti einai mia me8odos amunas,
> to mikrotero kako.
>
> De skotwneis enan an8rwpo. "O anurwpos einai on politiko" (koinwniko...).
An kai sumfwnw en genei me osa les, proswpika 0a eixa kapoio problhma
na sunainesw
sthn amblwsh mwrou epta h' oktw mhnwn, ektos fusika kai an kinduneue h
zwh h' h ugeia ths mhteras- an fusika me rwtousan! Ase pou o amigws
koinwnikos prosdiorismos tou
an0rwpou dhmiourgei peretairw problhmata: px ti ginetai me ena mwro
ligwn hmerwn?
Ki auto den exei oikodomhsei sxeseis me tous upoloipous an0rwpous. Exei
h mhtera to dikaiwma na to skotwsei;
>
> Akoma ki h gonikh agaph dhmiourgeitai siga-siga mesa apo thn ka8hmerinh
> zwh. Den prokuptei h agaph apo to DNA (allwste posoi antres einai sigouroi
> oti to paidi tous ferei ta dika tous gonidia...).
Oxi bebaia, alla uparxei profanws mia biologikh sunistwsa, alliws pws
na ejhghsei kaneis thn mhtrikh (kai suxna patrikh) storgh sta
perissotera zwa;
>
> > Dhladh av o vomos leei oti h ektpwsh
> > dev eivai egklhma, h astuvomia npenei va npattei avaloga me tis dikes ths
>
> > avtilhyeis nepi tou ti eivai kai ti dev eivai 'h8iko egklhma kata ths
> > koivwvias'. Gvwpizeis fusika oti oi diafopoi 'Zhsiadhdes' 8ewpousav oti
> > enpattav e8vikh euepgesia otav kuvhgousav, ektonizav, e3opizav, basavizav
> h'
> > skotwvav Koumouvistes. _KAI_ gia megala xpovika diasthmata eixav kai tov
> vomo
> > me to mepos tous!!!! Avti va me bpizeis xudaia, kalo 8a htav va
> skeftosouva
> > ligaki tis suveneies twv 8esewv sou sto sugkekpimevo 8ema gevikotepa.
> Poswv
> > xpovwv eisai, ev nasei nepintwsei? Poso kaipo hsouva sthv KNE?
> >
>
> Periergo, anamesa sta fasistoeidh tosoi KNites!
As mhn anoijoume *authn* thn koubenta ;-)
>
> Nikos
Mixalhs
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <01bd7d6a$bdd80c20$7f2b4bc3@default> "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr> writes:
>Path:
>news.ucla.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!207.97.14.174!europa.clark.net!152.158.16.5
>0!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news.uk.ibm.net!not-for-mail
>From: "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
>Subject: Re: Ellnves, avtista8eite..!
>Date: 12 May 1998 05:53:32 GMT
>Organization: Unspecified Organisation
>Lines: 106
>Message-ID: <01bd7d6a$bdd80c20$7f2b4bc3@default>
>References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980509032745.3912A-100000@bute>
><3552CA95...@ukans.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980509225808.19109B-100000@bute>
><karageor.30...@ucla.edu> <01bd7cf3$b15867a0$892b4bc3@default>
><35577A...@chem.fsu.edu>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp127.groovy.gr
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
>Xref: news.ucla.edu soc.culture.greek:92414
>Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> wrote in article
><35577A...@chem.fsu.edu>...
>> Nikos Efentakis wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Koita Niko, o ka0usterhmenos an0rwpos *exei* anwteres egkefalikes
>> leitourgies!
>Auto den to gnwrizw, alla sigoura den exei kaneis to dikaiwma na skotwsei
>akoma ki "am8rwpo" futo sta nosokomeia (opou den exei ka8olou egkefallikes
>leitourgies).
>> Mporei na mhn leitourgoun plhrws alla exei! Kai einai anwteres apo autes
>> opoiodhpote
>> allou zwou. Yparxei poiotikh diafora metaju tou pleon ka0usterhmenou
>> an0rwpou kai
>> tou efuiesterou zwou.
>Den to 3erw. Alla mou fainetai uperbolh. Uparxoun zwa me megalh nohmosunh
>kai an8rwpoi me polu sobares egkefalikes blabes.
>> Ta krithria bebaia den einai kai den mporei na
>> einai mono
>> (h' kuriws) biologika, kai se auto sumfwnoume.
>> Mia kai aneferes omws ka0usterhmena paidia: posoi apo tous polemious
>> ths ektrwshs
>> 0a to skeftotan sobara se periptwsh pou 0a mporousan na ma0oun nwris (px
>> mesa ston
>> prwto mhna ths kuhshs) oti to paidi tous 0a pasxei apo sundromo Down?
>> Exoun h den exoun
>> to dikaiwma na arnh0oun authn thn eu0unh ( giati peri terastias kai
>> ejairetika psux0f0oras eu0unhs prokeitai)?
>Grafeis kai pio katw gia to ean exei to dikaiwma mia mhtera na 8anatwsei to
>mwro ths ean einai ligwn hmerwn. Mporei na mhn to exei, alla polu eukola
>mia mhtera 8a epelege na 8anatwsei ena ka8usterhmeno paidi ths oso auto
>einai merikwn hmerwn (para argotera). Ki ean zhseis ligo se entatikh monada
>maieuthriou 8a deis poso eukola zhtoun kati tetoio neoi goneis.
>H alh8eia einai, oti oso barbara ki ean fainontai ta parapanw, pote o
>an8rwpos de ftanei toso konta se mia polu megalh eutuxia h aperioristh
>dustuxia, para mono sth genna.
>Ki edw exoume to "e[isthmoniko paralogo" na paleuoun xiliades episthmones
>na efeuroun tropou diagnwseis pi8anvn syggenwn anwmaliwn ki allwn noswn
>kata thn kyhsh, upobalontai oi gynaikes se ena swro e3etaseis
>(yperhxografhmata, amneiokenthseis klp), gia na kanoume th diagnwsh estw
>kai mia hmera prin th genna, diagnwsh pou katopin 8a einai sxetika
>asteia.... Mou fainetai upokritiko. Ean einai logiko (ki "h8iko") na
>skotwneis to arrwsto embruo, 8a prepei na mporeis na skotwseis kai to mwro.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > To 8ema einai pragmati "H8IKO'. Poias h8ikhs omws kai poianou?
>> >
>> > Egw nomizw oti o an8rwpos de mporei na oristei e3w apo tis sxeseis tou
>me
>> > thn koinwnia kai tous upoloipous an8rwpous. To embruo den exei
>oikodomhsei
>> > tetoies sxeseis. Den einai an8rwpos. ki auto to kanei pio eukolo 8uma.
>Oxi
>> > oti diafwnw me tis ektrwseis, apla anagnwrizw oti einai mia me8odos
>amunas,
>> > to mikrotero kako.
>> >
>> > De skotwneis enan an8rwpo. "O anurwpos einai on politiko"
>(koinwniko...).
>>
>> An kai sumfwnw en genei me osa les, proswpika 0a eixa kapoio problhma
>> na sunainesw
>> sthn amblwsh mwrou epta h' oktw mhnwn, ektos fusika kai an kinduneue h
>> zwh h' h ugeia ths mhteras- an fusika me rwtousan! Ase pou o amigws
>> koinwnikos prosdiorismos tou
>> an0rwpou dhmiourgei peretairw problhmata: px ti ginetai me ena mwro
>> ligwn hmerwn?
>> Ki auto den exei oikodomhsei sxeseis me tous upoloipous an0rwpous. Exei
>> h mhtera to dikaiwma na to skotwsei;
>Opws lew kai parapanw. Isws nai. Ki edw pare ypopshn sou oti opws to embruo
>de mporei na zhsei xwris th mhtera tou, etsi kai to ka8usterhmeno paidi
>diamorfwnei sxeseis me thn koinwnia (suxna apokleistika) mesw thw manas
>tou. Pali de mporeis na fortwseis tetoia eu8unh se an8rwpos pou de 8elei
>-kai pi8anon- de mporei na thn analabei.
>> >
>> > Periergo, anamesa sta fasistoeidh tosoi KNites!
>>
>> As mhn anoijoume *authn* thn koubenta ;-)
>> >
>Apla mou fanhke periergo, giati me to prwto mou post efaga mia epu8esh pou
>mou xalase th dia8esh...
>> > Nikos
>>
>> Mixalhs
>>
>Apo poio meros ths Krhths eisai?
>Nikos
Asteras Amaliadas
Paidia ta "epixeirhmata" sas gia thn ektrwsh einai diatrhta! Suggnwmh,
alla den mpainw ston kopo na apanthsw se epixeirhmata ta opoia exoun kopei
kai rafei wste na uposthri3oun ena prodedikasmeno "sumperasma"!
Einai fobero to poso papatzidika prospa8eite na mas peisete px oti
"an8rwpos" einai autos pou mporei na zhsei "ane3arthta", les kai to mwro
epeidh mporeis na to dwseis anti sth mana sthn 8eia tou na to megalwsei
den einai e3artwmeno, "an8rwpo" bgazetai ton "politiko" an8rwpo (mhpws
prepei na bgalei kai eklogiko bibliario prwta, prin na exei to dikaiwma na
zhsei klp.
Mou sumpa8ete tous dolofonous pou ektelountai gia tis pra3eis tous eis
baors ths koinwnias, kai uposthrizete tous Ektelestes twn paidiwn tous!
Prospa8eite na bgalete "kratisth" opoion zhta apo to kratos na analabei tn
perifrourhsh twn an8rwpwn pou zoun mesa s' auto, les kai exei allo skopo,
upoti8etai, to kratos, para thn prostaseia mas apo thn au8airesia!
Ws pou oramatizeste mia koinwnia mastourhdwn, opou to kratos 8a epitrepei
thn eleu8erh, paragwgh, emporia, diakinhsh kai xrhsh twn egklhmatikwn
ousiwn!
H epixeirhmatologia sas mpazei apo pantou! Lupamai! Den mpainw ston kopo
na asxolei8w me to 8ema pleon!
Gregory Dandulakis
>alla den mpainw ston kopo na apanthsw se epixeirhmata ta opoia exoun kopei
>kai rafei wste na uposthri3oun ena prodedikasmeno "sumperasma"!
>
>Einai fobero to poso papatzidika prospa8eite na mas peisete px oti
>"an8rwpos" einai autos pou mporei na zhsei "ane3arthta", les kai to mwro
>epeidh mporeis na to dwseis anti sth mana sthn 8eia tou na to megalwsei
>den einai e3artwmeno, "an8rwpo" bgazetai ton "politiko" an8rwpo (mhpws
>prepei na bgalei kai eklogiko bibliario prwta, prin na exei to dikaiwma na
^^^^^
Bre su arxipapatzh, h rhtoreia sou den metrietai se pentokila
alla se megatonous. Alla h blakeia sou omws ftanei sto sun
apeiro.
Na sou dwsw paradeigma "gia to dikaiwma zwhs": O papatzhs
Andreas Papandreou efage 2 dis draxmes gia na epekteinei
thn zwh tou 6 mhnes. Pes mou enan allo qnhto sth Ellada
pou mporei na kanei teteio pragma. Einai 5-10 oloi kai
oloi tous; H' mhpws otan egw ginw fouxtalo san ton Pap
qa nomoqethseis to "dikaiwma sth zwh", opou olos o pla-
nhths qa douleuei nyxqhmeron gia na me krathsei emena se
katastash futou;
Ela stoke, apanthse. Dwse mou mia "kaqarh lush". Etsi
apo ta aspra-maura surtaria ths eufuias sou.
Grhgorhs
Nikos Efentakis
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Kyros Hadjikyrou <ky...@ukans.edu> wrote:
:>Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
:>"apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
:>dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
:
: Eivai pragmati paravomn n autoktovia stnv Ellada? Avtilambavomai oti n
: orthodoksn paradosn tn thewrei amartia (me epiptwseis epi tns tafns klp)
: alla avtavaklatai auto sto poiniko dikaio?
Amesos tis dikeologies peri thriskeutikon "prokatalipseon"! H autoktonia
(apopira) einai ontos paranomi se arketes xores, oi opies den einai
"orthodoxes". Kane mia (apotiximeni) apopira, kai pes mou an tha se
klisi h oxi h politia se mia kliniki (gia tis profanos
dianoitikes/psixologikes diataraxes pou diatrexi to atomo).
Opote to kratos/politia exei meta tou gegonontos to dikeoma na sou sterisi
basika dikeomata (afou tha sterise pleon tin eleutheria sou).
: Parepiptovtws, to epixeirnma pio pavw mou faivetai lavthasmevo: to gegovos
: pws (isws) yparxei evas kapoios vomos dev snmaivei pws n Politeia eixe to
: dikaiwma va perasei tetoio vomo (gi'auto kai vomoi elegxovtai gia tn
: syvtagmatikotnta tous)
A... tora to theoris kai "antisintagmatiko". Asfalos otan blepei kapios
tin ipokria stis apopsis tou... oi dikeologies sigoura akolouthoun! To
kratos ONTOS (adiakrita an simfoneis h oxi, h an to blepeis esi san
"antisintagmatiko") exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti mporeis kai ti DEN
mporeis na kaneis sto soma sou. Kai nai, h autoktonia kai ta narkotika
apagoreuonte, opos kai diafora alla (analoga me ti xora). Stin Nea Yorki
px, apagoreuonte ta tatouaz (h malon h topothetisi kainourgion sto soma).
Pios dinei lipon stin poli tis Neas Yorkis to dikeoma na apagoreusi kati
pou den (mpori na) blapti kanenan plin autounou pou dexete to tatouaz? Kai
omos filtate, einai ontos SINTAGMATIKO!
: Xairetismata,
: Kyros
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
Nikos Sarantakos
On 12 May 1998 12:36:36 GMT, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Kyros Hadjikyrou <ky...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>
>:>Ti profanos;; Einai h den einai paranomi h autoktonia (toulaxiston h
>:>"apotiximeni"); Exei lipon NAI h OXI h politia to dikeoma na sou pei ti
>:>dikeoma exei enas politis me to soma tou;
>:
>: Eivai pragmati paravomn n autoktovia stnv Ellada? Avtilambavomai oti n
>: orthodoksn paradosn tn thewrei amartia (me epiptwseis epi tns tafns klp)
>: alla avtavaklatai auto sto poiniko dikaio?
>
>Amesos tis dikeologies peri thriskeutikon "prokatalipseon"! H autoktonia
>(apopira) einai ontos paranomi se arketes xores, oi opies den einai
>"orthodoxes". Kane mia (apotiximeni) apopira, kai pes mou an tha se
>klisi h oxi h politia se mia kliniki (gia tis profanos
>dianoitikes/psixologikes diataraxes pou diatrexi to atomo).
>
>Opote to kratos/politia exei meta tou gegonontos to dikeoma na sou sterisi
>basika dikeomata (afou tha sterise pleon tin eleutheria sou).
Parathrw oti den apanthses sto erwthma tou anqrwpou, dhladh ean sthn
Ellada einai paranomh h autoktonia, para aneferes nefelwdws alles
xwres.
.
.
>
>: Parepiptovtws, to epixeirnma pio pavw mou faivetai lavthasmevo: to gegovos
>: pws (isws) yparxei evas kapoios vomos dev snmaivei pws n Politeia eixe to
>: dikaiwma va perasei tetoio vomo (gi'auto kai vomoi elegxovtai gia tn
>: syvtagmatikotnta tous)
>
>A... tora to theoris kai "antisintagmatiko". Asfalos otan blepei kapios
>tin ipokria stis apopsis tou... oi dikeologies sigoura akolouthoun! To
>kratos ONTOS (adiakrita an simfoneis h oxi, h an to blepeis esi san
>"antisintagmatiko") exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti mporeis kai ti DEN
>mporeis na kaneis sto soma sou. Kai nai, h autoktonia kai ta narkotika
>apagoreuonte, opos kai diafora alla (analoga me ti xora). Stin Nea Yorki
>px, apagoreuonte ta tatouaz (h malon h topothetisi kainourgion sto soma).
>Pios dinei lipon stin poli tis Neas Yorkis to dikeoma na apagoreusi kati
>pou den (mpori na) blapti kanenan plin autounou pou dexete to tatouaz? Kai
>omos filtate, einai ontos SINTAGMATIKO!
Allo na uparxei nomos, kai allo na einai suntagmatikos.
Ta mperdeueis.
Dekades einai oi nomoi pou pshfizontai apo to nomoqetiko swma
(boulh h' o,ti to analogo) kai ustera khrussontai antisuntagmatikoi
apo ta anwtata dikasthria.
ns
.
Nikos Sarantakos
On 12 May 1998 05:53:32 GMT, "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr>
wrote:
>Grafeis kai pio katw gia to ean exei to dikaiwma mia mhtera na 8anatwsei to
>mwro ths ean einai ligwn hmerwn. Mporei na mhn to exei, alla polu eukola
>mia mhtera 8a epelege na 8anatwsei ena ka8usterhmeno paidi ths oso auto
>einai merikwn hmerwn (para argotera). Ki ean zhseis ligo se entatikh monada
>maieuthriou 8a deis poso eukola zhtoun kati tetoio neoi goneis.
Alhqeia einai auto. Kai kaneis den mporei na tous katadikasei.
>
>H alh8eia einai, oti oso barbara ki ean fainontai ta parapanw, pote o
>an8rwpos de ftanei toso konta se mia polu megalh eutuxia h aperioristh
>dustuxia, para mono sth genna.
Polu swsto! Thn exw dokimasei, ws sunaisqhma, thn agwnia auth.
H alhqeia pantws einai oti olo auto to nhma suzhthshs peri ektrwsewn
egine xwris th summetoxh estw kai mias ekproswpou twn
amesa emplekomenwn, twn gunaikwn ennow (pou' na staqei gunaika
edwmesa, edw einai maximh monada :-)
Isws qa htan xrhsimo na exoun ekeines ton prwto logo, den
briskete? Kai diafwtistiko, na doume ti qa elegan...
ns
Mihalis Panagiotakis
> >> Nikos Efentakis wrote:
> >> >
> >>
> >> Koita Niko, o ka0usterhmenos an0rwpos *exei* anwteres egkefalikes
> >> leitourgies!
>
> >Auto den to gnwrizw, alla sigoura den exei kaneis to dikaiwma na skotwsei
> >akoma ki "am8rwpo" futo sta nosokomeia (opou den exei ka8olou egkefallikes
> >leitourgies).
Se polla merh tou kosmou krithrio tou an einai enas an0rwpos zwntanos
h' oxi
einai an uparxoun egkefalikes leitourgies, h' mallon an exoun apwles0ei
pera apo
ka0e elpida. To oti den exei dikaiwma na "skotwsei" an0rwpo-futo exei
polu na kanei
me thn prostasia twn ..."mh-futwn"....
>
> >> Mporei na mhn leitourgoun plhrws alla exei! Kai einai anwteres apo autes
> >> opoiodhpote
> >> allou zwou. Yparxei poiotikh diafora metaju tou pleon ka0usterhmenou
> >> an0rwpou kai
> >> tou efuiesterou zwou.
>
> >Den to 3erw. Alla mou fainetai uperbolh. Uparxoun zwa me megalh nohmosunh
> >kai an8rwpoi me polu sobares egkefalikes blabes.
Pragmati, kai ta mwra pou genniountai me terasties egkefalikes blabes
*sunh0ws*
pasxoun kai apo alla 0anathfora problhmata kai ws ek toutou den ti0etai
sunh0ws tetoio
zhthma.... Oi "sunh0eis" ka0usterhmenoi, mporoun na epikoinwnoun
glwssika na
ftiaxnoun pragmata, na diabazoun ktl. Ekei den mpainei 0ema.
>
> >> Ta krithria bebaia den einai kai den mporei na
> >> einai mono
> >> (h' kuriws) biologika, kai se auto sumfwnoume.
> >> Mia kai aneferes omws ka0usterhmena paidia: posoi apo tous polemious
> >> ths ektrwshs
> >> 0a to skeftotan sobara se periptwsh pou 0a mporousan na ma0oun nwris (px
> >> mesa ston
> >> prwto mhna ths kuhshs) oti to paidi tous 0a pasxei apo sundromo Down?
> >> Exoun h den exoun
> >> to dikaiwma na arnh0oun authn thn eu0unh ( giati peri terastias kai
> >> ejairetika psux0f0oras eu0unhs prokeitai)?
>
> >Grafeis kai pio katw gia to ean exei to dikaiwma mia mhtera na 8anatwsei to
> >mwro ths ean einai ligwn hmerwn. Mporei na mhn to exei, alla polu eukola
> >mia mhtera 8a epelege na 8anatwsei ena ka8usterhmeno paidi ths oso auto
> >einai merikwn hmerwn (para argotera). Ki ean zhseis ligo se entatikh monada
> >maieuthriou 8a deis poso eukola zhtoun kati tetoio neoi goneis.
Den exw zhsei authn thn atmosfaira proswpika. Den exw kammia amfibolia
pws einai
etsi. To 0ema einai oti dustuxws h' eutuxws prepei na uparjei ena
*au0aireto*
orio pera po to opoio h 0anatwsh apagoreuetai, giati oi goneis den exoun
(kai kat'eme
den prepei na exoun) dikaiwma zwhs kai 0anatou panw sta paidia tous...
>
> >H alh8eia einai, oti oso barbara ki ean fainontai ta parapanw, pote o
> >an8rwpos de ftanei toso konta se mia polu megalh eutuxia h aperioristh
> >dustuxia, para mono sth genna.
>
> >Ki edw exoume to "e[isthmoniko paralogo" na paleuoun xiliades episthmones
> >na efeuroun tropou diagnwseis pi8anvn syggenwn anwmaliwn ki allwn noswn
> >kata thn kyhsh, upobalontai oi gynaikes se ena swro e3etaseis
> >(yperhxografhmata, amneiokenthseis klp), gia na kanoume th diagnwsh estw
> >kai mia hmera prin th genna, diagnwsh pou katopin 8a einai sxetika
> >asteia.... Mou fainetai upokritiko. Ean einai logiko (ki "h8iko") na
> >skotwneis to arrwsto embruo, 8a prepei na mporeis na skotwseis kai to mwro.
Auto dhmiourgei problhmata dikaiodosias. Apo thn stigmh pou h mana den
0elei
gia opoiodhpote logo ena mwro pou mporei na epibiwsei, 0a prepei na exei
to
dikaiwma na *arnh0ei* thn eu0unh tou. Na to paradwsei se allous h' se
idrumata
an to 0eloun ki auta.
H suzhthsh gia ta ka0ysterhmena paidia einai poluplokh. Gia ta ugeih
paidia omws?
Aplws pisteuw sto dikaiwma ths manas na dwsei to paidi ths gia uio0esia.
>
> >> >
> >> > Periergo, anamesa sta fasistoeidh tosoi KNites!
> >>
> >> As mhn anoijoume *authn* thn koubenta ;-)
> >> >
>
> >Apla mou fanhke periergo, giati me to prwto mou post efaga mia epu8esh pou
> >mou xalase th dia8esh...
>
> >> > Nikos
> >>
> >> Mixalhs
> >>
> >Apo poio meros ths Krhths eisai?
Hrakleio (kai ek katagwghs apo alla merh ths A.Krhths). Esu?
Mihalis Panagiotakis
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
> H alhqeia pantws einai oti olo auto to nhma suzhthshs peri ektrwsewn
> egine xwris th summetoxh estw kai mias ekproswpou twn
> amesa emplekomenwn, twn gunaikwn ennow (pou' na staqei gunaika
> edwmesa, edw einai maximh monada :-)
>
> Isws qa htan xrhsimo na exoun ekeines ton prwto logo, den
> briskete? Kai diafwtistiko, na doume ti qa elegan...
Anoigeis ena megalo 0ema: giati upoekproswpountai oi gunaikes sto
diktuo? To fainomeno den einai mono ellhniko... Exei kaneis/kammia
kapoia ejhghsh?
T
>
> ns
Mixalhs
Nikos Sarantakos
Koita na deis, se merh opws to s.c.g pou to mpinelo peftei sunnefo
einai sxedon adunato gia mia gunaika na parei meros se suzhthsh epi
isois orois, dioti p.x. den einai se qesh na brisei. Ki an brisei, qa
th brisoun xudaia *san gunaika*, qa ths bgaloun fwtografies gumnes
(pseutikes) sto diktuo ktl. (auta exoun ginei).
Des pws stolizei twra o asteras thn elif h' pws stolizan paliotera th
gkalina. Ti les esu? Einai auth suzhthsh h' mpinelo epi isois orois?
Asfalws oxi. Giati mia gunaika pou brizei xudaia qewreitai poutana,
enw enas antras pou brizei xudaia einai antraklas.
Se alles listes, hremes kai ellhnikes, exei arketes gunaikes.
Se alles listes, sobares kai episthmonikes, exei gunaikes pio
polles. Oxi pantws to miso tou sunolou, polu ligoteres?
Giati? Af' enos epeidh oi gunaikes exoun ligoterh prosbash
se upologistes apo tous antres, epeidh exoun kai na doulepsoun
kai na kanoun tis douleies tou spitiou, ara ligotero xrono,
alla kuriws epeidh, apo meletes pou exoun ginei, oi gunaikes
einai ligotero eualwtes/epidektikes (pesto opws qes) sthn
eikonikh pragmatikothta/epikoinwnia. Protimane na zoune
ston pragmatiko kosmo. Exoune kai paidia na frontisoune
(kai auto isxuei, an me ennoeis, kai gia tis gunaikes pou
den exoune akoma paidia).
nikos
Nikos Sarantakos
>
> Den exw zhsei authn thn atmosfaira proswpika. Den exw kammia amfibolia
>pws einai
>etsi. To 0ema einai oti dustuxws h' eutuxws prepei na uparjei ena
>*au0aireto*
>orio pera po to opoio h 0anatwsh apagoreuetai, giati oi goneis den exoun
>(kai kat'eme
>den prepei na exoun) dikaiwma zwhs kai 0anatou panw sta paidia tous...
>
Mixalh, tetoio orio (peripou) uparxei. Pare, as poume, ta prowra.
Sthn Ellada, pou exoume kalous giatrous, apo 500 grammaria
kai panw, to paidi to kratane -oi giatroi, xwris na polurwtane
tous goneis. Exw polu kontinh (oxi dikh mou) empeiria apo auto.
(Kai kserw kai mia periptwsh gnwstou, pou htan o idios giatros,
kai 'katafere' na mhn krathsoun to polu prowro -alla panw apo
to orio- paidi tou. Tou ekanan th "xarh", epeidh htan giatros.
Oxi, den katadikazw -se tetoia qemata, kaneis den mporei
na katadikasei an den ta perasei prwta o idios.
nikos
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@village.uunet.lu> wrote:
>
>On "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr> wrote:
>
>>Grafeis kai pio katw gia to ean exei to dikaiwma mia mhtera na 8anatwsei to
>>mwro ths ean einai ligwn hmerwn. Mporei na mhn to exei, alla polu eukola
>>mia mhtera 8a epelege na 8anatwsei ena ka8usterhmeno paidi ths oso auto
>>einai merikwn hmerwn (para argotera). Ki ean zhseis ligo se entatikh monada
>>maieuthriou 8a deis poso eukola zhtoun kati tetoio neoi goneis.
>
Sta topika nea edw, pou kaluptoun peripou 100,000 katoikous,
akous kata meso oro duo periptwseis manwn pou skotwnoun ta neogna
tous kat'etos. Kai den milame sunhqws gia arrwsta paidia. Einai
h malakunsh ths pieshs tou na krathsoun thn egkumosunh, h opoia
odhgei sth suneidhtopoihsh se 1-2 mhnes meta th genna to poso
tromera apaithtiko, perioristiko kai euqunh einai na exeis paidi.
Apo th mia meria h piesh apo ta mesa plushs ta paidia na exoun
"eleuqeria", sumperilambanomenhs ths seksoualikhs, se nearh
hlikia (15xronh/os xwris gamhsi qewreitai kaqusterhmenh/os).
Apo thn allh meria h piesh na krathqei to paidi, kai akoma
kai h apisteuth elafrothta pollwn (xwrismenwn) giagiadwn
na uposxeqoun oti autes qa "megalwsoun to brefos". Telos,
to oti oi andres den piezontai kaqolou apo thn "eleuqerh"
koinwnia tou na einai paterades/suzugoi "uperanw olwn", kai
h agria ekmetalleush pou kanei kai to teleutaio upoloima
anqrwpou na douleuei gia pentarodekares gia na zhsei (to
elaxisto merikamato edw, meion thn asfalish kai thn oiko-
geneiakh uposthriksh apo megalh oikogeneia, einai xamhlo-
tero tou ellhnikou), kuriolektika sunqlhboun ena 20% tou
plhqusmou edw se katastash prwimhs apognwshs. Gia mena
einai eutuxhma oti oi dolofonies edw einai "mono" deka
fores megaluteres apo oti sthn Eurwph...!
> H alhqeia pantws einai oti olo auto to nhma suzhthshs peri ektrwsewn
>egine xwris th summetoxh estw kai mias ekproswpou twn
>amesa emplekomenwn, twn gunaikwn ennow (pou' na staqei gunaika
>edw mesa, edw einai maximh monada :-)
>
>Isws qa htan xrhsimo na exoun ekeines ton prwto logo, den
>briskete? Kai diafwtistiko, na doume ti qa elegan...
Oi gunaikes panta exoun ton teleutaio logo (akomh kai sthn
ektrwsh, bebaiws), parolo oti oi andres protimoun na dinoun
thn ekswqen kalh marturia tou "euriskomenou sto phdalio",
gia ta ellhnika dedomena, kuriws. Alla opws les, ellhnides
eks Ellados einai eidos se megalh aneparkeia edw, ara mhn
perimeneis kai polla. Oi ellhnoamerikanes einai apo allo
kolpo teleiws.
H dikia mou gnwmh gia tis gunaikes einai oti parolo einai
sunaisqhmatika polu pio entones kai ekdhlwtikes, kai ara
kai sthn periptwsh ektrwshs eksairetika anastatwmenes, sto
telos omws einai polu pio stoibares kai makroproqesma upo-
logistrikes apo oti oi andres. Ean doun oti me to na krath-
soun paidi exoun sobares piqanothtes na desoun kai ton andra
mazi, tote qa to krathsoun. Ean omws o magkas fainetai apo-
fasismenos na mhn "mashsei", tote h ektrwsh ginetai xwris
amfibolia. Auto den isxuei edw, opou h gunaikes exoun xasei
thn aisqhsh ths apoluths anagkaiothtas tou andra sth uparksh
oikogeneias. Apotelesma; 40% twn paidiwn ekswgama stis HPA,
molis 3% sthn Ellada.
Grhgorhs (milwn ek peiras, estw kai enekdotologikhs)
Asteras Amaliadas
Oi pio polles gunaikes mpainoun sto internet gia antres kai tipote allo!
Anti8eta emeis to internet to blepoume pio genika, san phgh ektonwshs kai
yuxagwgias. Ki mhh mou peite to anti8eto! Den 8elw na anoi3w to stoma mou.
Dexteite auto pou lew a3iwmatika!
To mono pou 8a sas pw einai to IRC. Ekei mpainoun KAI gunaikes! Oses
sxedon gunaikes mpainoun to kanoun gia na gnwrisoun agoria! Molis proxtes
kalos mou filos skorare mia pitsirika asxeth, pou gnwrise etsi!
Ki enw to internet xrhsimeuei gia na 3exarmaniazoun kapoioi, tupoi san ton
Astera, ton Kelso, to Selefko kai ton PanSak ka8ontai kai miloun gia
istoria... Aaaaaaaaxxxxxx!
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@village.uunet.lu> wrote:
:>Amesos tis dikeologies peri thriskeutikon "prokatalipseon"! H autoktonia
:>(apopira) einai ontos paranomi se arketes xores, oi opies den einai
:>"orthodoxes". Kane mia (apotiximeni) apopira, kai pes mou an tha se
:>klisi h oxi h politia se mia kliniki (gia tis profanos
:>dianoitikes/psixologikes diataraxes pou diatrexi to atomo).
:>
:>Opote to kratos/politia exei meta tou gegonontos to dikeoma na sou sterisi
:>basika dikeomata (afou tha sterise pleon tin eleutheria sou).
:
: Parathrw oti den apanthses sto erwthma tou anqrwpou, dhladh ean sthn
: Ellada einai paranomh h autoktonia, para aneferes nefelwdws alles
: xwres.
Pws den apantisa? Otan lew oti h autoktonia einai paranomi (akoma kai se
xores mi-"orthodoxes"), den sou apanta tin erotisi? Kai sou edosa kai
PARADIGMA. Pigene lipon stin ELLADA kai kane mia APOPIRA. Pes mou meta an
to kratos tha sou sterisi basika dikeomata h oxi (mia kai tha se klisi se
kapia kliniki).
:>A... tora to theoris kai "antisintagmatiko". Asfalos otan blepei kapios
:>tin ipokria stis apopsis tou... oi dikeologies sigoura akolouthoun! To
:>kratos ONTOS (adiakrita an simfoneis h oxi, h an to blepeis esi san
:>"antisintagmatiko") exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti mporeis kai ti DEN
:>mporeis na kaneis sto soma sou. Kai nai, h autoktonia kai ta narkotika
:>apagoreuonte, opos kai diafora alla (analoga me ti xora). Stin Nea Yorki
:>px, apagoreuonte ta tatouaz (h malon h topothetisi kainourgion sto soma).
:>Pios dinei lipon stin poli tis Neas Yorkis to dikeoma na apagoreusi kati
:>pou den (mpori na) blapti kanenan plin autounou pou dexete to tatouaz? Kai
:>omos filtate, einai ontos SINTAGMATIKO!
:
: Allo na uparxei nomos, kai allo na einai suntagmatikos.
: Ta mperdeueis.
Esi ta mperbeueis, h malon prospatheis na ta dikeologisis. O nomos autos
stin Nea Yorki (pou mpike se efarmogi gia iatrikous logous), einai se
efarmogi pano apo mia dekaetia (den gnorizo akribos pote perstike, alla
sigoura prin to 89). An htan "anti-sintagmatikos" nomizo oti mia dekaetia
eparki gia na ton xaraktirisoun etsi ta anotera dikastiria tis politias h
tis xoras. Idieteros otan milame genika gia tis HPA, kai idikotera gia tin
NY!
: Dekades einai oi nomoi pou pshfizontai apo to nomoqetiko swma
: (boulh h' o,ti to analogo) kai ustera khrussontai antisuntagmatikoi
: apo ta anwtata dikasthria.
Meta apo poso xroniko diastima? Euxaristo.
Blepoume lipon oti me ena APLO paradigma oti ONTOS (gia na to 3anapw) h
politia exei to dikeoma na sou pei ti dikeomata exeis me to soma sou (kai
oute kan analisa to thema ton narkotikon).
: ns
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
Dennis Travlos
LM;PK[OL[PL[P
Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@village.uunet.lu> wrote in article
<3557f296...@news.uunet.lu>...
> On 12 May 1998 05:53:32 GMT, "Nikos Efentakis" <te...@groovy.gr>
> wrote:
> >Grafeis kai pio katw gia to ean exei to dikaiwma mia mhtera na 8anatwsei
to
> >mwro ths ean einai ligwn hmerwn. Mporei na mhn to exei, alla polu eukola
> >mia mhtera 8a epelege na 8anatwsei ena ka8usterhmeno paidi ths oso auto
> >einai merikwn hmerwn (para argotera). Ki ean zhseis ligo se entatikh
monada
> >maieuthriou 8a deis poso eukola zhtoun kati tetoio neoi goneis.
>
> Alhqeia einai auto. Kai kaneis den mporei na tous katadikasei.
>
> >
> >H alh8eia einai, oti oso barbara ki ean fainontai ta parapanw, pote o
> >an8rwpos de ftanei toso konta se mia polu megalh eutuxia h aperioristh
> >dustuxia, para mono sth genna.
>
> Polu swsto! Thn exw dokimasei, ws sunaisqhma, thn agwnia auth.
>
> H alhqeia pantws einai oti olo auto to nhma suzhthshs peri ektrwsewn
> egine xwris th summetoxh estw kai mias ekproswpou twn
> amesa emplekomenwn, twn gunaikwn ennow (pou' na staqei gunaika
> edwmesa, edw einai maximh monada :-)
>
> Isws qa htan xrhsimo na exoun ekeines ton prwto logo, den
> briskete? Kai diafwtistiko, na doume ti qa elegan...
>
> ns
>
>
Dennis Travlos
GHJFGHJ
E. Gkioulekas
Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> writes:
>Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>> H alhqeia pantws einai oti olo auto to nhma suzhthshs peri ektrwsewn
>> egine xwris th summetoxh estw kai mias ekproswpou twn
>> amesa emplekomenwn, twn gunaikwn ennow (pou' na staqei gunaika
>> edwmesa, edw einai maximh monada :-)
>>
>> Isws qa htan xrhsimo na exoun ekeines ton prwto logo, den
>> briskete? Kai diafwtistiko, na doume ti qa elegan...
> Anoigeis ena megalo 0ema: giati upoekproswpountai oi gunaikes sto
>diktuo? To fainomeno den einai mono ellhniko... Exei kaneis/kammia
>kapoia ejhghsh?
Dioti dev diabazeis ta newsgroups sta opoia suxvazouv. Gia pave va deis
ekei pou milave oi mamades gia ta paidia tous ;-)
Leu0erns.
Nikos Sarantakos
On 18 May 1998 21:59:20 GMT, egki...@u.washington.edu (E. Gkioulekas)
wrote:
>Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> writes:
>
>
>> Anoigeis ena megalo 0ema: giati upoekproswpountai oi gunaikes sto
>>diktuo? To fainomeno den einai mono ellhniko... Exei kaneis/kammia
>>kapoia ejhghsh?
>
>Dioti dev diabazeis ta newsgroups sta opoia suxvazouv. Gia pave va deis
>ekei pou milave oi mamades gia ta paidia tous ;-)
>
Panapei, Lefterh, esu suxnazeis sta newsgroup opou milane oi mamades
gia ta paidia?
Mpas kai etoimazeis kanena? :-)) Ante, me to kalo!
ns
E. Gkioulekas
sar...@village.uunet.lu (Nikos Sarantakos) writes:
>On 18 May 1998 21:59:20 GMT, egki...@u.washington.edu (E. Gkioulekas)
>wrote:
>>Mihalis Panagiotakis <mih...@chem.fsu.edu> writes:
>>
> >
>>> Anoigeis ena megalo 0ema: giati upoekproswpountai oi gunaikes sto
>>>diktuo? To fainomeno den einai mono ellhniko... Exei kaneis/kammia
>>>kapoia ejhghsh?
>>
>>Dioti dev diabazeis ta newsgroups sta opoia suxvazouv. Gia pave va deis
>>ekei pou milave oi mamades gia ta paidia tous ;-)
>>
>Panapei, Lefterh, esu suxnazeis sta newsgroup opou milane oi mamades
>gia ta paidia?
Pavapei oti me aresei va ma0aivw ta lnmeria. Pai3e ligo me to newsreader
va deis ti aperavto eivai to usenet..
>Mpas kai etoimazeis kanena? :-)) Ante, me to kalo!
Xa! Edw kala kala oikovomiko stability dev exoume, paidia 0a kavoume?
Gia Me3ikavo me perases?
Leu0erns.
Nikos Efentakis
Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980513012823.15358A-100000@bute>...
E osi kai istoria aytes oi mpourdes pou aradiazoume oloi mas!!!
Siga mhn mas peis oti kanoume kai sobarh syzhthsh!
Ase, pou ektos apo to mpineliki pou paei sunnefo exoume kai ton "eks
anatolvn kinduno" kai to neo apo borra (!), oi opoioi einai xeiroteroi apo
tous xeiroterous dikous mas!
Autos o Ilinden kanei 40 post thn hmera, gemizei to newsgroup kai apo th
baremara xanoume kai ta endiaferonta post.
(ki o Agamemnvn den paei pisv bebaia, alla mhn me balete na kanw syggriseis
giati polu 8a kourastw).
Nikos
liba
Nikos Efentakis <te...@groovy.gr> wrote in article
<01bd8b18$0133f460$9b2b4bc3@default>...
>
>
> Asteras Amaliadas <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in article
> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980513012823.15358A-100000@bute>...
> > Oi pio polles gunaikes mpainoun sto internet gia antres kai tipote
allo!
> > Anti8eta emeis to internet to blepoume pio genika, san phgh ektonwshs
kai
> > yuxagwgias. Ki mhh mou peite to anti8eto! Den 8elw na anoi3w to stoma
> mou.
> > Dexteite auto pou lew a3iwmatika!
> >
> > To mono pou 8a sas pw einai to IRC. Ekei mpainoun KAI gunaikes! Oses
> > sxedon gunaikes mpainoun to kanoun gia na gnwrisoun agoria! Molis
proxtes
> > kalos mou filos skorare mia pitsirika asxeth, pou gnwrise etsi!
> >
> > Ki enw to internet xrhsimeuei gia na 3exarmaniazoun kapoioi, tupoi san
> ton
> > Astera, ton Kelso, to Selefko kai ton PanSak ka8ontai kai miloun gia
> > istoria... Aaaaaaaaxxxxxx!
> >
> > Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
> > http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
> >
aaaaaaaa!!!!....na sas po!
de xero posi apo esas sauto to newsgroup iste ginekes alla ego ime mia!
kai den hrisimopio to internet gia na gnoriso "agoria"! mallon ta "agoria"
hrisimopioun to internet gia na gnorisoun emena!
telospanton,milas poli genikeumena kai sexoualikes diahorisis tou typou "i
ginekes
ine etsi kai i ginekes kanoun auto..." einai tulahiston anoites.
mipos den ehete sinithisi thn ginekia parousia sauto to
newsgroup?!(astieuome)
filika,liba