Is Greece becoming a third world country? (bailout success)

[Nomen Nescio]

Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar as health services are slashed by savage cuts

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-country-HIV-Malaria-TB-rates-soar-health-services-slashed-savage-cuts.html#ixzz1pTzUI8aU

[Nestor]

> Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar as
> health services are slashed by savage cuts
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-country-HIV-Malaria-TB-rates-soar-health-services-slashed-savage-cuts.html#ixzz1pTzUI8aU

Watch andf Learn pessimistic idiot

http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ert.gr/webtv/index.php/component/k2/itemlist/category/125-%25CE%25B7-%25CE%25BC%25CE%25B7%25CF%2587%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BD%25CE%25AE-%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585-%25CF%2587%25CF%2581%25CF%258C%25CE%25BD%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585.html&usg=AFQjCNH50MkA1Iw7DKvHpgCQmKSfGLfWeg

[Kickboxer ®™]

On Mar 18, 6:15 pm, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
> Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar as health services are slashed by savage cuts
>

> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-count...

Journalistic satanists using deductive reasoning (drawing general
conclusions from specific instances - the logic of stereotyping and
racism) to create negative perceptions about Greece.

Here are some equivalent examples:
Crime statistics shows most violators are Black. Are Blacks prone to
violence?
Third violent riot in Athens. Is Greek society breaking apart?
Nomen Nescio just had 3 instances of tachycardia. Is he dying of heart
attack?

You are relatively new here. But don't prove yourself to be as dumb as
ADR and Arnakis.

[Kickboxer ®™]

> Watch andf Learn pessimistic idiot
>

> http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ert.gr/webtv/index.php/co...

The Greek community should wake up and smell the coffee boiling over.

British satanists are engaged in mind warfare against Greece.

They are trying to destroy Greece (and other countries) by predicting
negative outcomes using mass media.

Collective thinking does affect future outcomes.

If many people's minds are synchronized on a certain thought (for
example, the Euro will fail) this outcome is more likely to happen.

This is an occult operation and a form of warfare.

[gogu]

? "Kickboxer ŽT" <greeceisge...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:160789bc-e873-4a48...@v2g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

Hihihi;-)
Now wait for the "intervention" of the skopian ADR/Roubini or the grey wolf
troll in defense of the british media;-)
LOL

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and more:
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html

[gogu]

? "Kickboxer ŽT" <greeceisge...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????

news:4204be2c-d83b-4ee0...@g16g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

>On Mar 18, 6:15 pm, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>> Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar
>> as health services are slashed by savage cuts
>>
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-count...

>Journalistic satanists using deductive reasoning (drawing general
>conclusions from specific instances - the logic of stereotyping and
>racism) to create negative perceptions about Greece.
>Here are some equivalent examples:
>Crime statistics shows most violators are Black. Are Blacks prone to
>violence?
>Third violent riot in Athens. Is Greek society breaking apart?
>Nomen Nescio

Call him by his real name: Yousoufaki-Arnaki;-)

>just had 3 instances of tachycardia. Is he dying of heart
>attack?
>You are relatively new here.

No, he is not;-)

> But don't prove yourself to be as dumb as
>ADR and Arnakis.

They are one and the same person (Yousoufaki-Arnaki and the anonymous
poster);-)

[ADR]

Nestor,

We know that you are old, but, my man, I think that extreme right wing (charitably) videos about the Greek civil war are rather irrelevant in this discussion.

Listen, if you want to start an anti-communist rant, why don't you start a thread instead of trolling in all threads and posting these idiotic videos time after time.

Just in case you have not heard, the civil war is over. Now, let's talk turkey. How are going to begin these lashings that we were talking about? How are we going to find all these crypto-communists that lurk under our beds? Your creativity there would be appreciated.

[ADR]

On Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:15:06 AM UTC-7, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar as health services are slashed by savage cuts
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-country-HIV-Malaria-TB-rates-soar-health-services-slashed-savage-cuts.html#ixzz1pTzUI8aU

Much worse is going to come. There is no need to doubt any of this. In Russia, in the '90s, the crisis there resulted in the average life span decreasing by 15 years. The same is going to happen to Greece. Those who are the edge, will tip over due to the lack of care or drugs.

The government is cutting health care to 6% GDP. The number is right there in the last memorandum. Health expenditures were at 9.8% GDP in 2009. Considering the higher GDP at that time and considering that the average Greek had more disposable income, one can easily see that this would result in a public health crisis.

Expensive programs such as TB eradication and HIV control will be abandoned. No new drugs are likely to e put on the Greek formulary because of costs. The government already announced heavy reliance on older generics. Thus, if one needs expensive biologics (Rituxan, Avastin, Avonex), very important for several cancers, as well the whole slew of modern anti-cancer medication that is currently under patents and not genericized, one would be in a bad shape!!! I am sure that expected life span will decline along the same lines as in other countries under the same type of crisis.

[Kickboxer ®™]

> Much worse is going to come. There is no need to doubt any of this.  In Russia, in the '90s, the crisis there resulted in the average life span decreasing by 15 years.  The same is going to happen to Greece.  Those who are the edge, will tip over due to the lack of care or drugs.
>
> The government is cutting health care to 6% GDP.  The number is right there in the last memorandum.  Health expenditures were at 9.8% GDP in 2009.  Considering the higher GDP at that time and considering that the average Greek had more disposable income, one can easily see that this would result in a public health crisis.
>
> Expensive programs such as TB eradication and HIV control will be abandoned.  No new drugs are likely to e put on the Greek formulary because of costs. The government already announced heavy reliance on older generics.  Thus, if one needs expensive biologics (Rituxan, Avastin, Avonex), very important for several cancers, as well the whole slew of modern anti-cancer medication that is currently under patents and not genericized, one would be in a bad shape!!!  I am sure that expected life span will decline along the same lines as in other countries under the same type of crisis.

Projecting your own incompetence and lack of imagination onto Greece
once again, eh?

Wanker!

[ADR]

On Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:24:32 AM UTC-7, Kickboxer ®™ wrote:
 
> Projecting your own incompetence and lack of imagination onto Greece
> once again, eh?

It is refreshing to see such a strong belief in the system. According to Kickboxer, Greece would do as well with 6% of GDP in health as it did with 9.8% GDP (and a higher GDP at that!!!).

Kickboxer, the hospital administrations and the physicians eagerly await your enlightened ideas on this!!!

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:29:43 +0200, "gogu" <Rumin...@Pula.com>
wrote:

>
>They are one and the same person (Yousoufaki-Arnaki and the anonymous
>poster);-)

You fucking idiot. I don't know anything about this guy. Can't you
read headers?

[gogu]

? "ADR" <aret...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:7767343.2491.1332092907336.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbctx5...

>On Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:45:56 AM UTC-7, Nestor wrote:
>Listen, if you want to start an anti-communist rant, why don't you start a
>thread instead of trolling in all threads and posting these idiotic videos
>time after time.

Certainly!
Whoever disagrees with ADR/Roubini is...trolling;-)
You sound and act just like the red fascist apparatchiks would do;-)
LOL LOL LOL

[gogu]

? "Alexander Arnakis" <inv...@invalid.invalid> ?????? ??? ??????
news:tqbcm75hdv8fdch2u...@4ax.com...

Hehehe;-)
Following your own (i)logic: "...and only the fact that you are so
vehemently denying it, is a proof it is true";-)))
How it is skopian, do you like you own medicine?!
LOL
Now go back and post some more anti-greek articles covered under the safety
of some anonymous server!
You are a coward so we are not surprised at all;-)
PWN!

[gogu]

? "ADR" <aret...@yahoo.com> ???a?e st? �??礱
news:20729599.2587.1332095547051.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbvs10...

>On Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:24:32 AM UTC-7, Kickboxer 畽 wrote:

>> Projecting your own incompetence and lack of imagination onto Greece
>> once again, eh?

>It is refreshing to see such a strong belief in the system. According to
>Kickboxer, Greece would do as well with 6% of GDP in health as it did with
>9.8% GDP (and a higher GDP at that!!!).

Yes, if you and your ilk will stop stealing from the IKA etc!
And as I can see lately IKA is doing a very good job unmasking people like
you who are sucking the blood of the greek health system!
Soon they will come down to your relatives working in the health system and
then we will see the true "glory" of the Retzios family;-)

>Kickboxer, the hospital administrations and the physicians eagerly await
>your enlightened ideas on this!!!

Noooo, they await *YOUR* enlighten stupidities on this;-)
Fool!

[vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com]

THe socialised medicine in Greece is what is turd whirled.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

[vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com]

The people who took Greece out of the Third World are the much maligned
junta, in 1972, when Greece was the second fastest growing economy after
Japan. No, I do not support the junta but I think it was better than the four
bloody banana republic Venizelist coups which executed elected officials
and officers.

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:04:18 +0000 (UTC),
vjp...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

>THe socialised medicine in Greece is what is turd whirled.
>

Greece does not have "socialzed" medicine. It has "crony-Mafioso"
medicine, where the ability to get care is measured by "fakelakia."

In the health system, as in just about everything in Greece, you have
laws and codified systems, which are widely ignored, and then you have
the reality, which is based of self-interest and corruption. Thus, in
medicine, you have a dual-track system, in which the wealthy use
private clinics, while the poor and middle class use the public
hospitals, knowing that they will still have to pay the shakedowns.

Likewise, in the education system, the rich send their kids to private
schools (the Arsakeio, Athens College, etc.) while the poor and middle
class send them to public schools, knowing that the instruction will
be sub-par and that therefore the kids will have to go to expensive
supplementary "frontisteria" staffed, to a large degree, by regular
teachers moonlighting from their public-school jobs at which they make
sure *not* to teach, so that the kids will be forced to go to them as
tutors. This is a system so rotten that words can't begin to describe
it.

[ADR]

On Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:07:15 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> The people who took Greece out of the Third World are the much maligned
> junta, in 1972, when Greece was the second fastest growing economy after
> Japan. No, I do not support the junta but I think it was better than the four
> bloody banana republic Venizelist coups which executed elected officials
> and officers.

Four Venizelist coups???? And you not a Junta supporter??? Really?

In any case, the revolt of 1922 was led by Plastiras who had his own agenda. It was not as much as coup as a full scale revolt of the army.

Unfortunately just too few were executed for incompetence that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and the homes and the livelihood of over 1 million people. This punishment, by a court, was really inadequate for the extent of the crimes committed and the incompetence shown. Hatzianestis, the commander in chief in the last stages of the war was clearly the most responsible of the lot (and those who selected them were as guilty). The man totally lost control of the military situation. In earlier times, not only he but his whole staff would have been executed. He was, among other senior officers, also clearly responsible for many crimes against civilians that made the cause of the Greek army in Anatolia so much more difficult.

Vassos, your version of Greek history is funny. But, the Plastiras coup almost a century ago is really not pertinent in this situation.

[Nestor]

It happens that ADR formulated :

> On Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:45:56 AM UTC-7, Nestor wrote:
>>> Is Greece becoming a third world country? HIV, Malaria and TB rates soar as
>>> health services are slashed by savage cuts
>>>
>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2115992/Is-Greece-world-country-HIV-Malaria-TB-rates-soar-health-services-slashed-savage-cuts.html#ixzz1pTzUI8aU
>>
>> Watch andf Learn pessimistic idiot
>>
>> http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ert.gr/webtv/index.php/component/k2/itemlist/category/125-%25CE%25B7-%25CE%25BC%25CE%25B7%25CF%2587%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BD%25CE%25AE-%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585-%25CF%2587%25CF%2581%25CF%258C%25CE%25BD%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585.html&usg=AFQjCNH50MkA1Iw7DKvHpgCQmKSfGLfWeg
>
> Nestor,
>
> We know that you are old, but, my man, I think that extreme right wing
> (charitably) videos about the Greek civil war are rather irrelevant in this
> discussion.

You aree wrong again,you didn't watch the same videos,who gives a
fuck
about ELAS, amybe you

> Listen, if you want to start an anti-communist rant, why don't you start a
> thread instead of trolling in all threads and posting these idiotic videos
> time after time.

One look at the broken down Papariga is an indication of the xalia of
KKE,scared not me,no KKE in Nassau NY.

> Just in case you have not heard, the civil war is over. Now, let's talk
> turkey. How are going to begin these lashings that we were talking about?
> How are we going to find all these crypto-communists that lurk under our
> beds? Your creativity there would be appreciated.

You must be the biggest fakin liar,did you watch all these
documementarys,The Truman doctrine and the Marshall plan and Truman
saying he will apoint American supervisors to supervize the economic
aid. I wanted to show you that even back in 1948 corruption was as bad
as it is now,same crap 60 years later, look here Skopian idiot, I don't
care about the civil war,we(Dodecanese) didn't join Greece until March
6 1948,so the civil war didn't affect us.And you pretend to be a
historian among other things.get real no wonder you don't get any
respect around here.

[Nashton]

On 12-03-18 3:24 PM, Kickboxer �� wrote:

> Projecting your own incompetence and lack of imagination onto Greece
> once again, eh?
>
> Wanker!

Perhaps ADR would be willing to help by contributing some of his
pension/salary?


--
ADR on the current fiscal crisis : "There is no evidence
whatsoever that Greece spent irresponsibly and that it did not manage
its debt."

ADR on the open letter of Greek academics on the economy.
Pissaridis, Nobel Prize laureate is amongst them.

"This letter, signed mostly by persons with appointments and strong
connections to Greek academia has been extensively panned in the
forums of Greek academics wild inaccuracies, obvious distortions and
absolute lack of solutions."

"There is not chance in hell that the government will get
access to a persons' account that has moved the his/her
money quite legally to Switzerland or any other European
bank"

The naive ADR on Swiss accounts.

"Of course, they will be great Greek patriots who will fight on -and
eventually win-. In the meantime, I will stay with some proud people,
the Irish (since I have a great emotional connection with the place
and dear memories) "

ADR taking another emotional tantrum, takin g his marbles and going home.

"Palestinian rockets killed only a few rats in Israel"

Another "lesson" on current events from ADR

"I am always right, I am never wrong and you can't deal with it"

ADR and is God like infallibility

"When there are commentaries in the Wall Street Journal calling for the
replacement of this ridiculous government, you know we have reached
the end of the road"

ADR and the credence he places on ...magazines concerning the rise or
fall of a govt.

"That's impossible. For the news of the fire to travel from Rome to
Actium and for the Nero to sail back to Rome it would take many more
days than the fire lasted. Nero would have arrived just to see
smoking ashes."

For ADR, Actium = Antium
Ti Lozanh, ti Kozanh.

"This totally laughable and it shows
that you are smoking something powerful.
Have you tried to install a
DSL line at home in Greece lately?"

ADR on broadband penetration in Greece.


"These radiation level are just within certain areas of the reactor.
Let's not overblow the whole thing. Provided that the plant is
finally secured and cleaned, this radiation level will decline quite
quickly (depending on the actual elements that provide the
radiation)."

ADR forgetting about the plutonium, offers his in depth
analysis of the nuclear reactor crisis in Japan.

"To think that Anastassios had anything to do with the manufacture of
medicines is a frightening thought.

A man of fathomless ignorance who uses it as knowledge to guide action
and is involved in pharmacy imparts to medication a sense of Russian
roulette that's worse than the fear of disease.

Be afraid.

A man for whom Actium is the same as Antium, inequalities are the same
as negative statements, thinks just as well that chloride is the same
as clorate and sulfide the same as sulfate. There never was a
sophist movement, ancient Greece and Rome had no lawyers, and science
is never concerned with proving negatives. Anything goes, folks.

A mind that dysfunctional in a relaxed history forum with not
deadlines or bosses must be even worse in the spheres of life with
strict obligations.

Bingo! Then one hears that such a man failed to meet his performance
goals at his work and got a bonus of exactly zero dollars last year.
And that shortly afterward his employer reconsidered Mr. Retzios'
business contribution in his 24 months of employment and felt he was
being robbed, and rightfully fired the goober's a.s.

How many times must that have happened to Anastassios,... and
counting?"

Someone pegging the fool ADR for who he really is.

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:01:17 -0300, Nashton <na...@na.ca> wrote:
>
>Perhaps ADR would be willing to help by contributing some of his
>pension/salary?

Anything that's sent to Greece goes into a black hole these days. I
remember in the early days of the crisis, when the Greek government
asked Greeks abroad to invest in special Greek bonds, in order to help
the country. The fools that did so lost most of their money in the
"haircut" with little hope of getting back any of the rest.

One reason why Greeks are so reluctant to comply with taxes is the
record of gross mismanagement of government funds. It's a regime of
corruption and excess.

[gogu]

? "Nestor" <meg...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:jk694l$gqg$1...@news.albasani.net...

> It happens that ADR formulated :

> You must be the biggest fakin liar,

Hihihihi;-)
So you were not aware of this until now Nestor?!;-)
Lying for this sad fart and his ass licker is like a second nature.

> did you watch all these documementarys,The Truman doctrine and the
> Marshall plan and Truman saying he will apoint American supervisors to
> supervize the economic aid. I wanted to show you that even back in 1948
> corruption was as bad as it is now,same crap 60 years later,

Since 1821 we Greeks "created" a state as it suited our needs: a state where
anyone could bypass laws and do whatever he wanted.
A state with "barbades sthn Korwnh", a state from which we all could suck
its blood and then point the finger to "others".
It's sad to say (but the truth nevertheless) that we've made a state that
represents us, PERIOD!
We all were comfortable with such state, we are all guilty for this.

> look here Skopian idiot,

Noooo, he just like Yousoufaki-Arnaki are the only "pure" greeks, coming
directly from the testicles of Pericles;-)
We, the rest of the plebe, are just "Romanian Jews", "slavs", "turks" or
whatever they want;-)
LOL

> I don't care about the civil war,we(Dodecanese) didn't join Greece until
> March 6 1948,so the civil war didn't affect us.

WOW!
I didn't know that you are a Dodecanesean, my mother's sister is married in
Rhodes with the former commanding officer of the Recruitment Bureau of
Rhodes, Nikos Hristou!

> And you pretend to be a historian among other things.get real no wonder
> you don't get any respect around here.

He is not a historian as he is not an economist.
He is just a total loser in his real life seeking "recognition" on internet.
Just like his ass licker.
Sad, little an8rwpakia...
As for respect...don't make me laugh;-)

[Nestor]

gogu used his keyboard to write :

> ? "Nestor" <meg...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:jk694l$gqg$1...@news.albasani.net...
>> It happens that ADR formulated :
>> You must be the biggest fakin liar,
>
> Hihihihi;-)
> So you were not aware of this until now Nestor?!;-)
> Lying for this sad fart and his ass licker is like a second nature.
>
>
>> did you watch all these documementarys,The Truman doctrine and the Marshall
>> plan and Truman saying he will apoint American supervisors to supervize the
>> economic aid. I wanted to show you that even back in 1948 corruption was
>> as bad as it is now,same crap 60 years later,
>
> Since 1821 we Greeks "created" a state as it suited our needs: a state where
> anyone could bypass laws and do whatever he wanted.
> A state with "barbades sthn Korwnh", a state from which we all could suck its
> blood and then point the finger to "others".
> It's sad to say (but the truth nevertheless) that we've made a state that
> represents us, PERIOD!
> We all were comfortable with such state, we are all guilty for this.

All three documenatries deal more all less about corruption of the
Greek elite during and after the civil war.If the prfessor watched them
he will see that nothing much has changed from 1948, and nobody went to
jail-sounds familiar? Is that a scientific mind searching for the
truth?

[Nashton]

No kidding.
And what makes you think that Greeks will not work together to create a
better, more competitive Greece? Your prejudicial views?

[choro]

Because you get 3 political parties when you put 2 Greeks together!
-- choro

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:41:11 -0300, Nashton <na...@na.ca> wrote:

>And what makes you think that Greeks will not work together to create a
>better, more competitive Greece? Your prejudicial views?

Because the mindset in Greece is to milk the system. If you can
successfully milk the system, it's seen as a sign of cleverness. On
the other hand, if you have a civic consciousness, pay your taxes,
etc., you're seen as a fool or an idiot.

The root cause of this is the ordering of social priorities: first
come the self and the family, and only last is the community. There
are historical reasons for this: living under the Turks, being on the
cusp between East and West, repeated interventions by the Great
Powers, etc. Democracy, in modern Greece, has always been a thin
veneer.

You can see the proof of this anywhere in Athens -- families'
apartments are immaculate inside, but if you go to the street outside,
or even to the lobby of the building, you see vandalism and graffiti,
and no one cares.

I'll believe that corruption can be eliminated when I see graffiti
being removed from the neighborhoods. That's a telltale sign.

[ADR]

On Monday, March 19, 2012 11:18:46 AM UTC-7, Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:41:11 -0300, Nashton <na...@na.ca> wrote:
>
> >And what makes you think that Greeks will not work together to create a
> >better, more competitive Greece? Your prejudicial views?
>
> Because the mindset in Greece is to milk the system. If you can
> successfully milk the system, it's seen as a sign of cleverness. On
> the other hand, if you have a civic consciousness, pay your taxes,
> etc., you're seen as a fool or an idiot.

I profoundly disagree. Alex, I do not know how you have formed these views, but you have not worked and lived in Greece. I had the privilege of growing up in a hard-working family. I can say that I have not really met anybody who had aspirations of milking the system. There is no that much "state" around in Northern Greece to be "milked". Most people are engaged in productive work. It is totally illogical to paint most of Greece with the "central Athens" brush. Even in Athens, please visit the southern suburbia and decide how many people there "milk the system".

The family is certainly an important unit, but the community is also quite important in Greece. Even when the state dissolved, Greeks managed to form mass movements together. In fact, Greeks managed to structure mass movements even when the state was profoundly hostile to these mass movements. These are purely antithetical to you position.

If you judge the level of corruption from the amount of graffiti, well, then there is no hope for the UK!!! I have experienced there a growing graffiti epidemic which must surely mean that corruption is increasing. I hope not.

I would not extrapolate from the graffiti of Greece to its social mores. I have seen graffiti miring interesting neighborhoods all over Europe, in areas in which no Turk ever stepped foot in. So, you would see graffiti in London, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, and many other places and sometimes this graffiti would be quite intrusive. We should not venture to explore the cause of graffiti here, they belong at some other thread.

I have not found the "sense of community" in Greece to be any less than what it is anywhere else. The Greek society consists of various communities, all of which many have competing and contrasting interests and views. For example, the "community" of farmers has different concerns than the community of city dwellers but Greece is no different here from any other state.

[Nestor]

Alexander Arnakis was thinking very hard :

Κωλοδάχτυλα

«Ήθελα να εξασφαλίσω ένα σίγουρο μέλλον για τα παιδιά μου», ήταν η
απολογητική φράση της υπαλλήλου του ΙΚΑ που είχε στήσει το νταραβέρι με
τα επιδόματα μαϊμού. Υπό αυτή τη συνθήκη, αρκετοί ενδεχομένως να
νοιώσουν και μία περίεργη αίσθηση συμπόνιας. Εάν όμως η φράση
ολοκληρωνόταν σε πιο ειλικρινές πλαίσιο, θα έπρεπε να συμπληρωθεί με το
σκέλος : «… γι’ αυτό αποφάσισα να κλέψω από το μέλλον των δικών σας
παιδιών». Αυτό, το δεύτερο σκέλος είναι που κάνει τη διαφορά. Όχι μόνο
την εννοιολογική, αλλά και την συνειδησιακή που έχουμε ως πολίτες.

Δεν έμαθα για τις απολογίες των υπαλλήλων του Υπουργείου Ανάπτυξης
που κατηγορούνται ότι ζητούσαν μίζες για να εγκριθούν αναπτυξιακά
κονδύλια, αλλά υποθέτω ότι μέσα στο μυαλό τους κάτι παρόμοιο θα
σκέφτονταν. Πάντα, χωρίς το δεύτερο σκέλος. Πάντα προτάσσοντας ένα
κωλοδάχτυλο σε όλους εμάς.

Είδα και το γιαούρτωμα που δέχτηκε ο κ. Μποζίκης, Δήμαρχος
Ζακύνθου· του νησιού των «τυφλών». Επειδή ξεσκέπασε μία διαχρονική
απάτη ντόπιων ξενοδόχων, οι οποίοι δήλωναν ψεύτικα εμβαδά, προκειμένου
να μην πληρώνουν τα σωστά δημοτικά τέλη. Δεν με εξέπληξε το γιαούρτωμα.
Με εξέπληξε η στάση όλων των άλλων παρόντων που κοιτούσαν απαθείς τον
Δήμαρχο να φυγαδεύεται από την πίσω πόρτα.

Έμαθα και για τους πρώτους γιατρούς που πιάστηκαν να
υπερ-συνταγογραφούν, παρόλο που γνώριζαν ότι παρακολουθούνται πλέον
ηλεκτρονικά. “What’s the catch?”. Το "catch" είναι το γεγονός ότι η
τιμωρία που τους επιβλήθηκε ήταν να μην έχουν δικαίωμα συνταγογράφησης
για έναν μήνα. Δηλαδή, το αρχιλαμόγιο – γιατρός στην Αμαλιάδα που είχε
κάνει 5.000 συνταγογραφήσεις μέσα σε τέσσερις εβδομάδες, τιμωρείται με
παύση συνταγογράφησης για έναν μήνα. Εγώ στη θέση του, θα έκανα
κωλοδάχτυλο σε ολόκληρο το σύστημα υγείας, και από τον επόμενο μήνα θα
έκανα 10.000 παράνομες συνταγογραφήσεις. Και ας με τιμωρούν μήνα πάρα
μήνα. Ποιος είναι ο μάγκας;

Είδα και την σπαρακτική ιστορία του διευθυντή χειρούργου στο
Ασκληπιό Βούλας που μετά την παύση της εργασίας του, μετά από συνεχείς
καταγγελίες για «φακελάκια», επέστρεψε στη θέση του μετά από δύο
χρόνια, ύστερα από συνεχείς αναβολές της υπόθεσής του από το πειθαρχικό
του Υπουργείου Υγείας. Ο ίδιος δε, δήλωσε στους δημοσιογράφους ότι
επέστρεψε παρά τη θέλησή του. Ναι. Έτσι ακριβώς το είπε. Σε σένα, σε
μένα και σε όλο το πανελλήνιο που τον άκουγε. Όσο θάρρος του έλειπε για
να δηλώσει παραίτηση, το πήρε σε θράσος και έκανε αυτήν ακριβώς τη
δήλωση.


Μέσα σε μία εβδομάδα, μας έσκασαν στη μούρη περί τα 50 κωλοδάχτυλα. Τα
καταγεγραμμένα. Διότι όπως φαίνεται, όλα αυτά είναι η κορυφή του
παγόβουνου που χάνεται μέσα σε έναν βόθρο, αδιευκρίνιστου βάθους.
Κωλοδάχτυλα από αυτούς που μένουν στη διπλανή πόρτα, από δαιδαλώδεις
πειθαρχικούς μηχανισμούς που απλά δεν λειτουργούν είτε από ανικανότητα,
είτε από σκοπιμότητα, και από συναδέλφους ή Υπουργούς που «δεν
γνώριζαν».

Δεν με αφορά πλέον η επίμαχη φράση του Πάγκαλου. Αλήθεια. Όλες οι
αναλύσεις γύρω από τον κυνισμό της, την επιτηδειότητά της, το
ενδεχόμενο ορθόν της, ή τον ενδεχόμενο δόλο της, εξαντλήθηκαν εδώ και
ενάμιση χρόνο. Αν βγήκε έστω και ένα συμπέρασμα, δεν με αφορά και εν
τέλει δεν θα έπρεπε να αφορά κανέναν. Αναλωθήκαμε στις αναλύσεις και
αγνοήσαμε τα κωλοδάχτυλα. Μαζί με τις αναλύσεις αυτής της φράσης,
εξαντληθήκαμε και εμείς. Ως κάτοικοι μίας χαοτικής χώρας που όπου και
να «σκάψεις» ζέχνει σαπίλα και κάθε υγιής προσπάθεια βαλτώνει μέσα στον
ίδιο βούρκο πριν προλάβει καν να φανεί. Η ιστορική παρεξήγηση που
παίζει σε αυτόν τον τόπο εδώ και σχεδόν δύο αιώνες, αποτυπώνεται
ακριβώς στη φράση της υπαλλήλου του ΙΚΑ. Έχουμε συναίσθηση μόνον του
«εγώ». Όχι του «εμείς», και κυρίως ούτε των υποχρεώσεων που απορρέουν
από το «εγώ», ώστε «εμείς» εν μέσω μίας τυπικής κοινωνικής αλληλεγγύης
να αλληλοϋποστηριζόμαστε και να διασφαλίζουμε μία αξιοπρεπή ζωή για
εμάς και τα παιδιά «όλων».

Και μη με ρωτάς γιατί κανείς δεν γιαουρτώνει και κανείς δεν διοργανώνει
πορείες διαμαρτυρίας για όλους αυτούς τους από πάνω ή για τα δεκαπλάσια
παρόμοια περιστατικά που σταδιακά θα αποκαλυφθούν. Όλα θέμα πολιτικής
ανοησίας ήταν ανέκαθεν και αν μη τι άλλο, σε αυτή τη χώρα τα πρόβατα
που ψάχνουν απεγνωσμένα ιδεολογικούς ταγούς, περισσεύουν.

[Kickboxer ®™]

>   You must be the biggest fakin liar,did you watch all these
> documementarys,The Truman doctrine and the Marshall plan and Truman
> saying he will apoint American supervisors to supervize the economic
> aid. I wanted to show you  that even back in 1948 corruption was as bad
> as it is now,same crap 60 years later, look here Skopian idiot, I don't
> care about the civil war,we(Dodecanese) didn't join Greece until March
> 6 1948,so the civil war didn't affect us.And you pretend to be a
> historian among other things.get real no wonder you don't get any
> respect around here.

Well said, Nestor.

[Kickboxer ®™]

> Because the mindset in Greece is to milk the system. If you can
> successfully milk the system, it's seen as a sign of cleverness. On

This implies that Greeks have a hostile view of the system.

The system is viewed as an adversary. Something to beat or to avoid as
opposed to cooperate with and improve.

This attitude suggests that modern Greece is not the product of the
efforts of Greeks but a state carved by the bigger powers.

Did we really build Greece or are we suffering from false
consciousness?

Is Greece like an Arab country?

[Kickboxer ®™]

> I profoundly disagree.  Alex, I do not know how you have formed these views, but you have not worked and lived in Greece. I had the privilege of growing up in a hard-working family.  I can say that I have not really met anybody who had aspirations of milking the system. There is no that much "state" around in Northern Greece to be "milked".  Most people are engaged in productive work.  It is totally illogical to paint most of Greece with the "central Athens" brush.  Even in Athens, please visit the southern suburbia and decide how many people there "milk the system".

Self-centered bullshit - totally divorced from reality. "I never saw
what you saw so I disagree with you (your experience doesn't count)"

> The family is certainly an important unit, but the community is also quite important in Greece.  Even when the state dissolved, Greeks managed to form mass movements together.  In fact, Greeks managed to structure mass movements even when the state was profoundly hostile to these mass movements.  These are purely antithetical to you position.

Meaningless abstractions that have little if any congruence with
reality.

> If you judge the level of corruption from the amount of graffiti, well, then there is no hope for the UK!!!  I have experienced there a growing graffiti epidemic which must surely mean that corruption is increasing.  I hope not.

Stop confusing yourself with words.

Graffiti in the other major cities is not necessarily the same thing
as graffiti in Athens.

North American graffiti, for example, is intentional art and is
confined to limited surface areas. Athens graffiti is pure vandalism.
Typically ugly and offensive slogans sprayed by almost always Leftist
cretins. And it is not sprayed over abandoned buildings or road
shields but across statues and other landmarks.

As you know, Athens is a museum city so the impact of vandal graffiti
is much more devastating than in cities where there are few old
buildings and landmarks.

> I would not extrapolate from the graffiti of Greece to its social mores.  I have seen graffiti miring interesting neighborhoods all over Europe, in areas in which no Turk ever stepped foot in.  So, you would see graffiti in London, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, and many other places and sometimes this graffiti
would be quite intrusive. We should not venture to explore the cause
of graffiti here, they belong at some other thread.

Well, if you don't want to extrapolate social mores from graffiti and
corruption there are plenty of other signs. Such as the "prwteia" in
all the bad things.

> I have not found the "sense of community" in Greece to be any less than what it is anywhere else.  The Greek society consists of various communities, all of which many have competing and contrasting interests and views.  For example, the "community" of farmers has different concerns than the community of city dwellers but Greece is no different here from any other state.

You are a completely clueless idiot. Perhaps the most cohesive
community in Greece is the church. But even the Greek Orthodox Church
is a cold and unfriendly community compared to the warm and fuzzy
communities in other European countries. For example, there is minimal
interaction and charity work. All of this reflects the rude and
selfish character of Greeks.

[Nestor]

Kickboxer ®™ formulated on Monday :

I think so,just replace the churches with minarets and voila Western
Syria. I heard a student being against private uiniversities in
Greece,
he gave all kind or reasons why it coud not work in Greece, but when
the moderator told him "what about Harvard" the little leftist punk
said "ela tora to Harvard".Yes pseudo Arabs,mas lipoun a gelepies.I can
imagine Retzov on a camel and six wives following him.

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Kickboxer ®™
<greeceisge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Is Greece like an Arab country?

No, because the culture in Arab countries is centered on Islam, which
is a "communal" or "lifestyle" religion, as opposed to a "theological"
or "individualistic" religion such as Christianity (salvation is an
individual, and not communal, matter). The essence of Greek culture is
individualism -- which, by the way, is why political Communism is
destined to appeal to only a small minority of Greeks.

[Alexander Arnakis]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:50:44 -0400, Nestor <meg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>.... and six wives following him.
>
Polygamy has serious economic and social consequences in the Arab
world. Assuming that there are approximately equal numbers of males
and females, if rich Arabs have 4 wives (the most you can have at any
one time, under Islam), then for each rich Arab having 4 wives, there
have to be, on average, 3 unattached (and presumably poorer) males.
This where the reservoir of suicide bombers comes from. They're not
going to get women in this world, so they hope to do do in the next
world.

[ADR]

On Monday, March 19, 2012 3:30:52 PM UTC-7, Kickboxer ®™ wrote:

> Stop confusing yourself with words.
>
> Graffiti in the other major cities is not necessarily the same thing
> as graffiti in Athens.
>
> North American graffiti, for example, is intentional art and is
> confined to limited surface areas. Athens graffiti is pure vandalism.
> Typically ugly and offensive slogans sprayed by almost always Leftist
> cretins. And it is not sprayed over abandoned buildings or road
> shields but across statues and other landmarks.

What are you talking about? Where have you lived in North America? Have you commuted extensively in the UK? Have you been in Italy at all? I guess not.

Graffiti is not "an intentional art" apart from very limited circumstances. In LA, where I lived for a long time, graffiti is omnipotent in the central area as a way of distinguishing gang territories. Of course, this blights blighted neighborhoods even more. Tagging groups are out every day, spraying everything, from walls, to adds, to freeway signs, etc, etc. The only reasons that suburbia escapes is because it simply does not offer good surfaces for graffiti and because it is better policed.

I have been travelling to Vienna often for work and I have noticed a disturbing increase in graffiti there. In addition, graffiti seems to be quite a problem in the capitals of eastern European cities.

> As you know, Athens is a museum city so the impact of vandal graffiti
> is much more devastating than in cities where there are few old
> buildings and landmarks.

Athens is a "museum city"? Sure, it is a museum in bad taste. The old and the neoclassical city have been overwhelmed by millions of tasteless and dehumanized blocks of flats. In this dreadful environment with youth unemployment at 50% or higher, I am actually amazed that there is a surface that does not scream of desperation.

> Well, if you don't want to extrapolate social mores from graffiti and
> corruption there are plenty of other signs. Such as the "prwteia" in
> all the bad things.

Here is another idiot who wants to start lashing the whole population!!!

> You are a completely clueless idiot. Perhaps the most cohesive
> community in Greece is the church. But even the Greek Orthodox Church
> is a cold and unfriendly community compared to the warm and fuzzy
> communities in other European countries. For example, there is minimal
> interaction and charity work. All of this reflects the rude and
> selfish character of Greeks.

What do you know of "warm and fuzzy communities" in other European countries? Where have you lived before? Describe these "warm and fuzzy communities". I personally have found no difference (quite the contrary), but I am willing to learn.

[ADR]

This is not true. Socialized medicine in Greece works relatively well. The extension of medical care beyond the main metropolitan centers that started in the 80's had a great impact on Greek health. This negative view is not helpful at all in assessing the real ills of the Greek society. There is a vast difference between the state of health delivery now and 30 years ago. The system is far from perfect with the main public hospitals quite overburdened with many gaps in health delivery (the relative lack of nursing personnel is one of those) but not acknowledge substantial advances does not help.

As for private schools, good public schools in Greece have always outperformed them when it came to University admissions. One should not look at public schools in Greece as uniform; they are not. In fact, the best public schools are shoulders above the private ones. There is no indication that the students of private schools outscore the students of public schools. As for frontistiria, you may have some public teachers teaching there but they are a minority in a sea of thousands of graduates awaiting appointment in public schools for a decade or more after graduation. The situation was very different 30-40 years ago but nobody now needs to hire school teachers as there is a huge supply of unemployed ones.

I am not that negative on frontistiria, they simply supply a need in a highly competitive environment. At the end, those who attend there learn a lot. Despite statements here, they do not paper over gaps in public education. In fact, ***if one has gaps, he/she would not benefit from attending frontistirio***. In frontistirio, the whole idea is to learn approaches that would enhance your competitive edge. If you have gaps, this drags down the whole class. For example, if you decide to take additional tuition in geometry, for example, you would not be taught anything more than you already know from school. What a good frontistirio would do, is teach you ways to approach a geometry problem in such a way that you would always (or nearly always) solve it. This presupposes a very good knowledge of geometry, otherwise you would not benefit from the class. You do not learn tricks, you learn a methodology (at least in good frontistiria with really sharp teachers).

It is amazing here that the supposed right wing free marketeers of this group are attacking one of the Greek institutions that is a clear expression of the free market working perfectly. Frontistiria feed on the Greek society's perception of prestige associated with higher education. They provide a product where there is a perceived need for such a product. In the process, many unemployed academics find work and kids spend their free time learning instead of being out there tagging and carousing.

[Kickboxer ®™]

"It is amazing here that the supposed right wing free marketeers of
this group are attacking one of the Greek institutions that is a clear
expression of the free market working perfectly.  Frontistiria feed on
the Greek society's perception of prestige associated with higher
education. They provide a product where there is a perceived need for
such a product.  In the process, many unemployed academics find work
and kids spend their free time learning instead of being out there
tagging and carousing."

The same pattern of behavior by ADR. Complicated, convoluted and
confusing reasons being offered that justify Greek corruption. Blame
is placed on the perceiver, obscure "Right wingers" and the European
Union. Rotten Greece is always okay.

[Kickboxer ®™]

> No, because the culture in Arab countries is centered on Islam, which
> is a "communal" or "lifestyle" religion, as opposed to a "theological"
> or "individualistic" religion such as Christianity (salvation is an
> individual, and not communal, matter). The essence of Greek culture is
> individualism -- which, by the way, is why political Communism is
> destined to appeal to only a small minority of Greeks.

Let's put religion aside. After all, it is not the most significant
civilizing force.

Was modern Greece created by the initiative and efforts of Greeks or
was it carved by foreign powers like pretty much all Arab countries?

If Greece was handed to us then this would explain the lack of control
we have of Greece. To giati mas kanoun oti theloun oi Aggloi gia
paradeigma. Kai giati i "Elladitsa" einai ena toso adynamo kratos
paggosmiws. It also explains the hostility against the system and the
passive aggressive behavior of youth.

Most Greeks operate through the belief that Greece has been made by
Greeks. This false consciousness stops the thought process from
understanding the reality of the situation.