Incorrect View on the Ottoman Macedonia (was Re: More than a year ago...)
Plamen Malinov
In article <33220F...@ucla.edu>,
Stavros N Karageorgis <kara...@ucla.edu> wrote:
For those who don't know, and those who don't remember:
Begin old post
---------------
Subject: Will anyone start telling the truth about the 20th century
history of Macedonia (the region)?
In article <4gakbl$7...@newsreader.wustl.edu>
ga...@wustl.edu (Georgy Ganev) writes:
>John Mangov (gal...@pathcom.com) wrote:
>:(JM) bulgarians think that Macedonians
>: are bulgarians and they would automatically run back to the fold, didn't
>: happen because we are neither bulgarian, serbian, or greek. If we were
>: bulgarians why in 1913 when Macedonia was divided and the greeks and serbs
>: started their ethnic assimulation and murder why did you not declare war on
>: greece and serbia to protect your own people?
<
>(GG)Wait a second! Isn't this precisely what happened, precisely in 1913,
>precisely when Macedonia was divided and the Greeks and Serbs started
>their ethnic assimilation and murder? I think, and I bet you can find this
>in any relevant history book you check, that Bulgaria did precisely what
>you recommend: it declared war on Serbia and on Greece to protect its own
>people. The war is known as the Second Balkan (in Bulgaria it is better
>known as the War between the Allies) War.
<
<(SK)/Now, YOU wait a second, my Bulgarian 'friend'! Let's not get carried away
<here! Bulgarians did not fight over the territory of Macedonia 'just' to
<protect their 'own' people. Come on, this is anachronism to the max! Minor
<things like access to the Aegean and to the port of Thesalloniki also had
<something to do with Bulgarian interest in Macedonia. Please! Greek,
<Bulgarian and Serbian struggles over Macedonia were 'national liberation'
<struggles only in the diseased nationalistic minds of imperialistic, 'Great
<Idea' afficionados in Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. For all intents and
<purposes the actual population of the geographical area of Macedonia did NOT
<have clear-cut National identities one way or the other. Those who were
<consciously and actively Nationally Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian were certainly
<not the majority of the population. Greek and Bulgarian nationalisms probably
<did have the 'best' ethnic roots upon which to build Greek and Bulgarian
<'ethnic nationals' out of the population of Macedonia. But in those days, it
<was 'get the territory first, and then make X-es out of the local population.
<If they resist, force them to change their tune by 'schooling', 'incentives
<for assimilation' etc.; if they still resist, expell them, exchange them, kill
<them, marginalize them, officially make them disappear from censuses, etc..
<Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece all did the above. They grabbed as much of the
<territory of Macedonia as they could by war, treaty, etc. and then went on
<their 'nation-building' campaigns. Alas, this is of course basically what the
<Communists did in the former Yugoslavia with their Republic of Macedonia
<(sic), 'Macedonian nationality', 'Macedonian language' etc. Sure, they did
<not quite kill as many as the others did earlier in the century, but mutatis
<mutandis they did the same kind of thing. They certainly tried to get as much
<of the territory of Macedonia as possible by trying to annex the Greek part of
<Macedonia into their new 'Republic'.
<All in all, either we are all going to stop pretending that we have been the
<'saints' while all the others have been the 'devil' in the Balkans, or we
<should just give up discussing these matters. It's no use, hurling accusations
<back and forth as if we hold the moral high ground and the other side is
<'evil'.
<
(PM) Well, I want also to remind, that there was a discussion in this
news-group an year ago, and the opinion of S.K. was rejected almost by
everyone. I, personally, completely agree with the words of G.G. The
"theories" of S.K. are strongly nationalistic ones, and it is a pity, that he
cannot understand this. If he does really read the historical books from the
beginning of this century, he can understand, that the population of the
Ottoman Macedonia DID HAVE national consciousness then. There were about
1.2 mln Bulgarians there, about 0.2 mln Greeks and 0.000000 mln Serbs (which
means zero). Unfortunately after 1913 Macedonia was not become independent
state (as was proposed by defeated Bulgarians on the Bucharest peace treaty
negotiations in August 1913) - well, maybe they had in mind the fate of East
Rumelia in 1885... Macedonia was distributed UNPROPORTIONALLY to its
population:
to Greece 51 per cent (Aegean Macedonia) - instead of 14 per cent;
to Serbia 40 per cent (Vardar Macedonia) - instead of 0.000000000 per cent;
to Bulgaria 9 per cent (Pirin Macedonia) - instead of 86 per cent. Of course,
the lasting of this status-quo was based on many cruel and unhuman measures,
described by S.K. - but they can be regarded in respect only to Greek and
Serbian side... "Theories" as those of S.K. were used for oppression and
transforming of Bulgarian population in Aegean and Vardar Macedonia. There
were almost none Greeks in Pirin Macedonia - even in Petrich, which was
invaded by Greek army in 1920, but the conflict was arranged by the U. N.
(then with a seating in Geneva). It was a pity indeed, that the incident was
not used for a massive war against Greece, as done by the Turkish hero Mustafa
Kemal Ataturk. Unfortunately Bulgaria then did not join its ally from the WW I
Turkey, and an interesting opportunity for regaining of Macedonia was lost...
After that, in WW II, Bulgarian king Boris III very cleverly acted towards
German expansion - Bulgarian army was sent in Vardar and Aegean Macedonia, but
ONLY with police-supervising role. Those areas were German possesions, but
under Bulgarian control. And there was an opportunity, that the possesion
would be again regarded after the war... But Germany lost... Nowadays, because
of the politics of exchanging of populations, and the Serbian and Greek
oppression, the ethnic content of the population of the formerly Ottoman
Macedonia is changed. Because of this, forcible decisions are not
recommendable. Maybe the best decision of the Macedonian problem is joining of
all concerned Balkan countries of the E. U. Until now only Greece is such a
member (since late 70-ies), Bulgaria is associated member (since the beginning
of 90-ies), and the Republic of Macedonia is not even an associated member
(because of Greek hostility). By my humble opinion, it would be better, if the
process of joining of Bulgaria and especially of the Republic of Macedonia
into the E. U. is accelerated - this would prevent from some other possible
methods of dissolving of the Macedonian problem - as those discussed by
Miloshevich and Mitsotakis by Serbian proposal... Bur maybe both of them knew,
that Bulgarian army was ready for the event, and for example in tanks the
proportion Greek tanks: Bulgarian tanks was 1:1.2; in combat aircrafts - 1:1,
but with more modern Bulgarian Mig 29; in combat helicopters - Greece had not
any, etc. Bulgaria has even now very precise Russian middle range rockets of
the type SS, which had been bought BEFORE the treaty of their annihilating
both in the United States and the Soviet Union - of course they are without
nuclear war-heads, but with very powerful conventional ones... (Maybe Russians
had tought when they sold them, that in a case of need, it was very easy to
put in them the nuclear war-heads, and in such a case to overcome the
treaty...) Nevertheless all economical difficulties, Bulgaria bought 100 new
Russian tanks the last year (and also another 100 new light combat machines).
Regards: Plamen M.
Stavros N Karageorgis
Oh really? Re-post the pertinent posts then for all to see how my 'opinion',
shared by 99.9% of all disinterested students of nationalism and the Balkans,
was 'rejected by all'.
> I, personally, completely agree with the words of G.G. The
>"theories" of S.K. are strongly nationalistic ones, and it is a pity, that he
>cannot understand this.
Plamen, you obviously in a field related to nuclear physics. You haven't the
faintest idea what makes a 'theory' a 'nationalistic' (strong or otherwise)
one. This much is obvious by the fact that you present MY views as
nationalistic, while you maintain that there were 1.2 million 'Bulgarians' in
Ottoman Macedonia. It is obvious that in order to arrive at that number you
use 'language spoken' and 'genetic stock'. Using such 'indicators' for the
national identity and conscience of people is THE mark of the nationalist. I
wish you would simply state your opinion, and dispense with the 'labels'
unless you can substantiate them. I have challenged you many times to
demonstrate HOW and HOW SO my opinions and views are 'nationalistic'. You have
failed. All you do is to repeat them again. I've told you before, and your
compatriot, G. Philipov, has recently made a similar argument vis-a-vis Hope.
When it comes to nuclear physics, I and other non-specialists can offer
'opinions' but those are not at the same plane, not in the same 'league' as
those of someone like you. Therefore, I refrain from challenging you on
nuclear physics. You, OTOH, are not so restrained. If the opinion that modern
nations and national communities are 'imagined communities', 'social
constructions' based on PUTATIVE links of common language, religion, so-called
genetic stock, etc. is 'nationalistic', then 'quantum mechanics' is a
'Medieval' theory. Do you catch my drift?
>If he does really read the historical books from the
>beginning of this century, he can understand, that the population of the
>Ottoman Macedonia DID HAVE national consciousness then.
Not quite. Bulgarian statisticians and 'scholars', with a 19th century
'Romantic' nationalist bent, BRANDED them as 'Bulgarians' by ethno-nationality
on the basis of their spoken language being very similar to the standard
Bulgarian of the time. 'Bulgarian' and 'Bu(l)gare' and 'Voulgaros' did NOT
have NATIONAL or even ethnic connotations then for the majority of either
Slavonic-speaking or non-Slavonic speaking inhabitants of Macedonia. Based on
linguistic, ecclesiastical, 'common struggles against common enemies' etc.
many Macedonian Slavs were attracted and even identified with the Bulgarian
national cause, and Bulgaria as such. But, nothing even CLOSE to the 1.2
million figure you keep bandying around.
There were about
>1.2 mln Bulgarians there, about 0.2 mln Greeks and 0.000000 mln Serbs (which
>means zero). Unfortunately after 1913 Macedonia was not become independent
>state (as was proposed by defeated Bulgarians on the Bucharest peace treaty
>negotiations in August 1913) - well, maybe they had in mind the fate of East
>Rumelia in 1885... Macedonia was distributed UNPROPORTIONALLY to its
>population:
>to Greece 51 per cent (Aegean Macedonia) - instead of 14 per cent;
>to Serbia 40 per cent (Vardar Macedonia) - instead of 0.000000000 per cent;
>to Bulgaria 9 per cent (Pirin Macedonia) - instead of 86 per cent. Of course,
>the lasting of this status-quo was based on many cruel and unhuman measures,
>described by S.K. - but they can be regarded in respect only to Greek and
>Serbian side...
And, based on the above diatribe, you fancy yourself NOT a nationalist, and
you braned MY views as nationalistic? If this is not Orwellian 'double-think'
and 'double-talk' I don't know what is. Being patriotic is nice, but please!
You must be the most naive person in these NGs if you believe that Bulgarian
state, and para-statal forces did not engage in the MOST and MOST cruel and
inhuman measures. Spare us the 'violins' about the Bulgarians being the
'saints' in Macedonia, and all the others being the 'devils'. This is like the
pot calling the kettle black. Enough! As we say in Greek, we 'don't eat
stupid-weed' for breakfast.
"Theories" as those of S.K. were used for oppression and
>transforming of Bulgarian population in Aegean and Vardar Macedonia. There
>were almost none Greeks in Pirin Macedonia - even in Petrich, which was
>invaded by Greek army in 1920, but the conflict was arranged by the U. N.
>(then with a seating in Geneva). It was a pity indeed, that the incident was
>not used for a massive war against Greece, as done by the Turkish hero Mustafa
>Kemal Ataturk.
Stop LYING. The Greek army invaded Bulgarian territory because of a border
incident involving the killing of border guards by the Comitate. In 1920,
Bulgaria could do SQUAT against Greece. In a massive war against Greece in
1920, the Bulgarian forces would have faced swift and decisive defeat. Cut the
crap. Greece was indeed 'chastised' and 'punished' by the League of Nations
(there was no U.N. in 1920, Einstein!!!) for the incident. And do tell us, oh
non-nationalistic one, how come in 1920 there were no Greeks in Pirin
Macedonia? Hmm. It must have been the 'kind' and 'saintly' Bulgarian
assimilation and 'get the hell out or we'll burn down your houses and
businesses' policies that caused them to 'disappear' eh?
> Unfortunately Bulgaria then did not join its ally from the WW I
>Turkey, and an interesting opportunity for regaining of Macedonia was lost...
An interesting opportunity, indeed. And this joker calls ME a nationalist.
What a JOKE, you are Mr. Malinov. I told you, stick to nuclear physics,
Apparently you're much better at it, then history or social science. So, give
it a rest.
>After that, in WW II, Bulgarian king Boris III very cleverly acted towards
>German expansion - Bulgarian army was sent in Vardar and Aegean Macedonia, but
>ONLY with police-supervising role.
Oh yes! The population of 'Aegean' Macedonia, of any and all linguistic and
'stock' backgrounds, remember VIVIDLY and oh so kindly the
'police-supervising' role played by the Bulgarian army and its
para-organizations in the area. You are a living contradiction, Mr. Malinov.
If somebody had told me that a person who peddled the above kind of nonsense
would have the audacity to accuse others of being nationalists I wouldn't have
believed him/her. Alas, it's true. Incredible!!
> Those areas were German possesions, but
>under Bulgarian control. And there was an opportunity, that the possesion
>would be again regarded after the war... But Germany lost...
Under murderous, torturous, oppresing Bulgarian control . . . oh yea, darn it
that 'Germany' lost . . . bummer, eh? Is this guy for real?????
Can you believe this guy? Read carefully what he says above, and tell him if
you think HE is a Bulgarian nationalist, and an amazingly naive one to boot.
Go play with your toy soldiers, Plamen, and keep dreaming that the Bulgarian
armed forces are either a threat or a deterent to any state (except maybe RM)
in the region. Bulgaria cannot feed its population, and little Bulgarian
Napoleon here is 'barking' about Bulgaria's purchse of Russian tanks. Wow, we
are shaking in our boots, Plamen. Give us all a break, sir!
"And so much did our city bequeath to the other peoples
in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
share in nature."
Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50
"While every law restricts individual freedom to some extent
by altering the means which people may use in the pursuit
of their aims, under the Rule of Law the government is prevented
from stultifying individual efforts by ad hoc action. Within the
known rules of the game the individual is free to pursue
his[/her] personal ends and desires, certain that the powers of
government will not be used deliberately to frustrate his[/her] efforts."
-- Friedrich Hayek, _The Road To Serfdom_
Regards,
Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
@aurora.eexi.gr Lysis
In article <5g0u8n$b...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt
(Plamen Malinov) wrote:
>After that, in WW II, Bulgarian king Boris III very cleverly acted towards
>German expansion - Bulgarian army was sent in Vardar and Aegean Macedonia, but
>ONLY with police-supervising role. Those areas were German possesions, but
>under Bulgarian control. And there was an opportunity, that the possesion
>would be again regarded after the war... But Germany lost...
Well, ain't that a shame...
>Maybe the best decision of the Macedonian problem is joining of
>all concerned Balkan countries of the E. U. Until now only Greece is such a
>member (since late 70-ies), Bulgaria is associated member (since the beginning
>of 90-ies), and the Republic of Macedonia is not even an associated member
>(because of Greek hostility). By my humble opinion, it would be better, if the
>process of joining of Bulgaria and especially of the Republic of Macedonia
>into the E. U. is accelerated...
By that time you may face serious objections on behalf of the Vulcans and the
Klingon Empire, so hurry...
M.K.
U. S. STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations. Vol
VIII
Washington D.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014 / 26 Dec.
1944)
The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers:
The following is for your information and general guidance, but not
for any positive action at this time.
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing
**propaganda** rumors and semi-official statements in favor of
an
autonomous Macedonia... This Government considers talk of Macedonian
"nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national conscious-
ness" to be **unjustified demagoguery**representing no ethnic
nor
political reality, and sees in its present revival a
possible**cloak
for agressive intentions against Greece...** This Government
would
regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments
tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian
forces" against Greece...
STETTINIUS
This was the position of the United States State Department based on
the actions of the Yugoslav communist regime about Macedonia.
p.s. Plamen pray for your GOD ***SOROS***
Alexandros (the real one)
--
didomi soma toymon Elladi....
barbaron Ellhnas arxein eikos,all'oy barbaroys Ellhnon,to men gar
doylon,oi d'eleytheroi
I grant my body to Hellas..
It fits to the Hellenes to rule the barbars and not the barbars the
Hellenes,because they
are slaves while the Hellens are free.
Eyripides ,Ifigeneia en
Aylidois 1397 k.e.
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
On Mon, 10 Mar 97 11:23:12 GMT, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov)
wrote:
> Unfortunately Bulgaria then did not join its ally from the WW I
>Turkey, and an interesting opportunity for regaining of Macedonia was lost...
>After that, in WW II, Bulgarian king Boris III very cleverly acted towards
>German expansion - Bulgarian army was sent in Vardar and Aegean Macedonia, but
>ONLY with police-supervising role. Those areas were German possesions, but
>under Bulgarian control. And there was an opportunity, that the possesion
>would be again regarded after the war... But Germany lost...
Ain't that a shame....!!
>... Bur maybe both of them knew,
>that Bulgarian army was ready for the event, and for example in tanks the
>proportion Greek tanks: Bulgarian tanks was 1:1.2; in combat aircrafts - 1:1,
>but with more modern Bulgarian Mig 29; in combat helicopters - Greece had not
>any, etc. Bulgaria has even now very precise Russian middle range rockets of
>the type SS, which had been bought BEFORE the treaty of their annihilating
>both in the United States and the Soviet Union - of course they are without
>nuclear war-heads, but with very powerful conventional ones... (Maybe Russians
>had tought when they sold them, that in a case of need, it was very easy to
>put in them the nuclear war-heads, and in such a case to overcome the
>treaty...) Nevertheless all economical difficulties, Bulgaria bought 100 new
>Russian tanks the last year (and also another 100 new light combat machines).
This is really funny. Ooohh, we are shaking in our booties!!! Come
on, are you serious posting this material here? Is this for real or
what?
Plamen Malinov
"M.K." <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> Real Alexandros wrote:
<del>
Dear Real Alexandros,
The document, which you have given me is somewhat stale. For 50
years the things have been changed. Now the independent Republic of Macedonia
HAS the support of the U. S. State Department, and even there are solgiers
of the U. S., which are invited on behalf of the U. N. to defend its liberty.
You have citated me Eyripides:
It fits to the Hellenes to rule the barbars and not the barbars the
Hellenes,because they
are slaves while the Hellens are free.
Eyripides ,Ifigeneia en Aylidois 1397 k.e.
Let us take the Bible:
Is not this the fast that I have chosen ? to loose the
bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and
to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke ?
Bible, Jeremiah, 58:6
or:
And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained
I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.
Bible, Acts of the Apostles, 22:28
And if you do not accept citating from me the Bible, let us see Shakespeare:
I was born free as Caesar; so were you:
We both have fed as well, and we can both
Endure the winter,s cold as well as he.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, 97
Are you not at least little ashamed by your citation ?
At last I want to end with a citation from Ibsen:
The worst enemy of truth and freedom in our society is the
compact majority.
Henrik Ibsen, An Enemy of the People, Act 4.
Do you not think that the above have some connection with the contemporary
Greek society, where "Greeks" are 99 per cent ?
Regards: Plamen M.
Plamen Malinov
In article <karageor.23...@ucla.edu>,
In article <5g0u8n$b...@ci.ist.utl.pt>
p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
(PM) I have not enough free time, because of this, I shall reply only to
one point, which was discussed. I think that the answers to other ones are
obvious...
<
> (PM) "Theories" as those of S.K. were used for oppression and
>were almost none Greeks in Pirin Macedonia - even in Petrich, which was
>invaded by Greek army in 1920, but the conflict was arranged by the U. N.
>(then with a seating in Geneva). It was a pity indeed, that the incident was
>not used for a massive war against Greece, as done by the Turkish hero Mustafa
>Kemal Ataturk.
<
<Bulgaria could do SQUAT against Greece. In a massive war against Greece in
<1920, the Bulgarian forces would have faced swift and decisive defeat. Cut the
<crap. Greece was indeed 'chastised' and 'punished' by the League of Nations
<(there was no U.N. in 1920, Einstein!!!) for the incident. And do tell us, oh
<non-nationalistic one, how come in 1920 there were no Greeks in Pirin
<Macedonia? Hmm. It must have been the 'kind' and 'saintly' Bulgarian
<assimilation and 'get the hell out or we'll burn down your houses and
<businesses' policies that caused them to 'disappear' eh?
<
shall first reply to your last question, using "Stavros N. Karageorgis"
approach. Of course, nothing in this first reply is true. Now, let me begin:
The national consciuosness of those Greeks in Pirin Macedonia was not very
much developed. Although they spoke only Greek, and had Greek traditions, it
was easy to educate them to Bulgarian language, which was the official
language in their new native land. After that they forgotten their folklore,
and joined to neighbouring Bulgarians. So that they were transformed into
Bulgarians, because of accepting of Bulgarian culture and language.
Now let me answer more seriously. I personally think, that maybe there
were good chances in 1920-21 for a successful war together with Turkey. Just
remember what Turks did alone. But then in Bulgaria was in power the
non-decisive government of Alexander Stambolijski, which was very pro-Western
European oriented, and signed and accepted Neuilly treaty, and on the throne
was the very young king Boris III - his father Ferdinand was expelled from the
country after the disastrous end of WW I. Both failed to come in support of
the ally from WW I - Turkey. The government of Stambolijski was taken down
with coup d,etat in 1923, and he was killed, but the times then were others...
I cannot understand - where do you see lie ? Well, I have a small
mistake - U. N. instead of L. N. , but the meaning is the same... The incident
was a reason for Greeks to claim for another correction of the Greek-Bulgarian
border. They used as pretext the mixed population in Melnik/Melenikon, and
wanted to annex surrounding territory. What happened with those Greeks, which
remained after 1919 in Melnik/Melenikon and in Pirin Macedonia - most of
them leaved (led by their own will) to Greece after the agreement
Mollov-Kalfandaris. Nobody violate them to transform into Bulgarians... Even
now you can find in Bulgaria about 8 000 Greeks, which are Bulgarian sitizens,
and have normal human rights, as in every civilized country. Just for example
- Turks, Jews, Armenians, Greeks can have their cultural organizations, which
to organise corresponding events; and if there are enough such children, in
government schools can be organized courses of their native language -
additionally two hours weekly, with government teachers, and textbooks,
supplied from the government. Nobody fears, that they would be a fifth column,
maybe because nobody prepares for war...
Regards : Plamen M.
Goce Naumoski
In article <5g8tbt$h...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
|> In article <karageor.23...@ucla.edu>,
|> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
[del]
|> wanted to annex surrounding territory. What happened with those Greeks, which
|> remained after 1919 in Melnik/Melenikon and in Pirin Macedonia - most of
|> them leaved (led by their own will) to Greece after the agreement
|> Mollov-Kalfandaris. Nobody violate them to transform into Bulgarians... Even
|> now you can find in Bulgaria about 8 000 Greeks, which are Bulgarian sitizens,
|> and have normal human rights, as in every civilized country. Just for example
|> - Turks, Jews, Armenians, Greeks can have their cultural organizations, which
|> to organise corresponding events; and if there are enough such children, in
|> government schools can be organized courses of their native language -
|> additionally two hours weekly, with government teachers, and textbooks,
|> supplied from the government. Nobody fears, that they would be a fifth column,
|> maybe because nobody prepares for war...
Does somebody fear that the Macedonians in Bulgaria could be a fifth column,
so that they have no such 'human rights' as Greeks and others?
|> Regards : Plamen M.
Regards,
Goce.
Plamen Malinov
In article <5g93q6$7...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski) wrote:
In article <5g8tbt$h...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
[del]
|>wanted to annex surrounding territory. What happened with those Greeks, which
|> remained after 1919 in Melnik/Melenikon and in Pirin Macedonia - most of
|>them leaved (led by their own will) to Greece after the agreement
|>Mollov-Kalfandaris. Nobody violate them to transform into Bulgarians... Even
|>now you can find in Bulgaria about 8 000 Greeks, which are Bulgarian sitizens,
|>and have normal human rights, as in every civilized country. Just for example
|> - Turks, Jews, Armenians, Greeks can have their cultural organizations, which
|>to organise corresponding events; and if there are enough such children, in
|>government schools can be organized courses of their native language -
|>additionally two hours weekly, with government teachers, and textbooks,
|>supplied from the government. Nobody fears, that they would be a fifth column,
|>maybe because nobody prepares for war...
<
<so that they have no such 'human rights' as Greeks and others?
<
Bulgarians. They speak Bulgarian language, and have Bulgarian culture,
folklore and traditions. Because of this, it is not necessary for pupils in
Pirin Macedonia to study some artificially invented language, culture and
traditions, which in principle coinside with Bulgarian ones. And these pupils
do not want such a thing - the number of those, which think in the contrary is
very small.
Indeed in the last census in Bulgaria in 1992 some hundreds of people
declared that they were ethnic Macedonians. (By the way in the same census
some Pomaks in Pirin Macedonia declared that they were Marsians - they were
very much confused, because Bulgarians insisted that they were Muslim
Bulgarians, Turkish propagandists assured them that they were Turks, which
spoke Bulgarian, and propagandists from FYROM (RoM) - that they were Muslim
ethnic Macedonians. So that now we have in Bulgaria officially an
extra-terrestial population...) There are not any lawful obstacles for those
so-called Macedonians to create cultural organizations. In fact, there are
even two political organizations in Pirin Macedonia - VMRO (formerly VMRO-SMD)
and OMO "Ilinden". The last organization is not officially registered, because
it refuses from obeying Bulgarian law - they want FORCIBLE to torn Pirin
Macedonia, and to join it to FYROM (RoM). If they refuse from FORCIBLE
methods, they can be registered, and have corresponding activity. Until then,
they would be prosecuted, as in every decent country. If there are enough
pupils in the schools in Pirin Macedonia, which want to study the so-called
Macedonian language - there are not obstacles from doing it. But until now,
the number is almost vanishing, so that it is UNDER required treshold for
organising classes. As you see, the so-called Macedonians, and even
the Marsians, have equal human rights with the other minorities in Bulgaria.
Regards: Plamen M.
Goce Naumoski
In article <5g9d0l$v...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
|> In article <5g93q6$7...@tuegate.tue.nl>, go...@win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski) wrote:
|> In article <5g8tbt$h...@ci.ist.utl.pt>, p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
|> <(GN)Does somebody fear that the Macedonians in Bulgaria could be a fifth column,
|> <so that they have no such 'human rights' as Greeks and others?
|> <
|> (PM) There is NOT such a stuff as "Macedonians" - there are Macedonian
|> Bulgarians. They speak Bulgarian language, and have Bulgarian culture,
|> folklore and traditions. Because of this, it is not necessary for pupils in
|> Pirin Macedonia to study some artificially invented language, culture and
|> traditions, which in principle coinside with Bulgarian ones. And these pupils
|> do not want such a thing - the number of those, which think in the contrary is
|> very small.
Well, some people tend to disagree with you, Mr. Malinov, both on the
existence and the number of Macedonians. But, do not worry, I was checking
you current state of mind about the subject. However, what you should worry
about is what you (Bulgaria) do with people like Mr. Phillipov
(ex. Phillipou and future Phillipovski :-) ) who do not know whether they
are Macedonian Bulgarians or Bulgarian Macedonians.
|> Indeed in the last census in Bulgaria in 1992 some hundreds of people
|> declared that they were ethnic Macedonians. (By the way in the same census
|> some Pomaks in Pirin Macedonia declared that they were Marsians - they were
|> very much confused, because Bulgarians insisted that they were Muslim
|> Bulgarians, Turkish propagandists assured them that they were Turks, which
|> spoke Bulgarian, and propagandists from FYROM (RoM) - that they were Muslim
|> ethnic Macedonians. So that now we have in Bulgaria officially an
|> extra-terrestial population...) There are not any lawful obstacles for those
|> so-called Macedonians to create cultural organizations. In fact, there are
|> even two political organizations in Pirin Macedonia - VMRO (formerly VMRO-SMD)
|> and OMO "Ilinden". The last organization is not officially registered, because
Was it not the case that the first one (VMRO) represents ethnic Bulgarians
(that's why the SMD was dropped away) and the second one (OMO) ethnic
Macedonians? So, as you can see, some (more) people tend to disagree with
you about the existence and the number of (ethnic) Macedonians in RB.
|> it refuses from obeying Bulgarian law - they want FORCIBLE to torn Pirin
|> Macedonia, and to join it to FYROM (RoM). If they refuse from FORCIBLE
|> methods, they can be registered, and have corresponding activity. Until then,
|> they would be prosecuted, as in every decent country. If there are enough
|> pupils in the schools in Pirin Macedonia, which want to study the so-called
|> Macedonian language - there are not obstacles from doing it. But until now,
|> the number is almost vanishing, so that it is UNDER required treshold for
******************
|> organising classes. As you see, the so-called Macedonians, and even
|> the Marsians, have equal human rights with the other minorities in Bulgaria.
For exmaple, no person is speaking the Latin as his or her mother language,
but it is still used all over the wolrd, RB including. Why there should
be no possibility for Bulgarians (or Bulgarian citizens) to become familiar
with the Macedonian language (even regarding it as a dialect 'of the
so called Bulgarian', the point I strongly disagree with, as you know :-) ),
or the Macedonian culture. Afterall, we are brothers, aren't we :-)))
Why, then, you do not want to know us better? :)
But, I hope there is a hope.
@aurora.eexi.gr Lysis
>organising classes. As you see, the so-called Macedonians, and even
>the Marsians, have equal human rights with the other minorities in Bulgaria.
I'm more concerned about the rights of the majority in Bulgaria - can they get
food, heating fuel, healthcare, education, clothing, gasoline?
Stavros N Karageorgis
There are no 'majority' and 'minority' human and civil rights! Humans have
human rights, and citizens have civil rights. 'Rights' are protections of
individuals from the 'tyranny' of the majority or even the unanimity minus
one. No one has any more rights than anybody else by being a member of the
'majority' or a 'minority' regardless of what kind of 'majority' and
'minority' we're talking about.
paris
You go Goce, tell 'em like it is. Macedonia for Macedonians. If the
Albanians can want a school for Albanians in Macedonia then I think
Macedonians can have a school for Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece.
Wouldn't you agree.
Vanja
Kade si bre? Od koje mesto, tuka vo Amerika ili kaj nas? Pishi ushte
directno na ovaj newsgroup deka ne me ostavat od rabota da pisham inaku.
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
Stavros N Karageorgis
>You go Goce, tell 'em like it is. Macedonia for Macedonians. If the
>Albanians can want a school for Albanians in Macedonia then I think
>Macedonians can have a school for Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece.
>Wouldn't you agree.
>Vanja
Hi Vanja,
If ethno-national Macedonian Greek citizens want a school in Makedonski in
Greece, then they should, and should be free to, open one on their own, with
their own resources, privately. What the RM does with its own internal
education affairs is none of anybody else's business, and vice-versa.
The RM does NOT have its own minority in Greece and Bulgaria. The RM, like
all other states, may only be interested in the well-being of its CITIZENS
residing in other countries.
>Kade si bre? Od koje mesto, tuka vo Amerika ili kaj nas? Pishi ushte
>directno na ovaj newsgroup deka ne me ostavat od rabota da pisham inaku.
"While every law restricts individual freedom to some extent
paris
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
> >Vanja
>
> Hi Vanja,
>
> If ethno-national Macedonian Greek citizens want a school in Makedonski in
> Greece, then they should, and should be free to, open one on their own, with
> their own resources, privately. What the RM does with its own internal
> education affairs is none of anybody else's business, and vice-versa.
>
> The RM does NOT have its own minority in Greece and Bulgaria. The RM, like
> all other states, may only be interested in the well-being of its CITIZENS
> residing in other countries.
>
> Regards,
> Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
> E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
Hi Stavros
I may be entering all of these discussions a little late and uneducated
as far as democratics and historical perspectives. I really can only
comment on what I have first hand knowledge of and what hearsay there is
from all sectors including Macedonian, Bulgarian, Greek, and Turkish.
Although I feel that the majority of individuals really don't care one
way or the other as far as all the politics are concerned its the
minority that stirs up all the troubles.
I do have some reasearch to do as far as it goes but I'll also have to
admit to being biased just for the fact that I was born in Macedonia,
just like you have to admit bias just for being Greek.
No way around it I'm afraid.
But one question - what is RM?
Vanja
Georgi Karadjov
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: You go Goce, tell 'em like it is. Macedonia for Macedonians. If the
: Macedonians can have a school for Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece.
: Wouldn't you agree.
I would like to observe the results of an experiment, which will consist
of the following:
Two schools will be established. One "Macedonian" in Bulgaria, lets
say in Petrich, and one Bulgarian, lets say in Prilep. Lets asumme that
we can achive perfect conditions - no goverment interfirence, no
reprocations of any kind for the students and tehir families, and asume
that the skill of the teachers as well as the material base are the same.
The whole point will be to see which school will atract more students. My
personal opinion is that the one west of the border will have more
students.
Georgi Karadjov
: Vanja
: Kade si bre? Od koje mesto, tuka vo Amerika ili kaj nas? Pishi ushte
: directno na ovaj newsgroup deka ne me ostavat od rabota da pisham inaku.
: The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
: This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
: my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
: made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
: sender.
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Luben Todorovski
Georgi Karadjov wrote:
>
> I would like to observe the results of an experiment, which will consist
> of the following:
>
> Two schools will be established. One "Macedonian" in Bulgaria, lets
> say in Petrich, and one Bulgarian, lets say in Prilep. Lets asumme that
> we can achive perfect conditions - no goverment interfirence, no
> reprocations of any kind for the students and tehir families, and asume
> that the skill of the teachers as well as the material base are the same.
> The whole point will be to see which school will atract more students. My
> personal opinion is that the one west of the border will have more
> students.
>
> Georgi Karadjov
>
Indeed, another very incorrect view of Mr. Karadjov.
Bube
paris
Georgi Karadjov wrote:
>
> paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
> : You go Goce, tell 'em like it is. Macedonia for Macedonians. If the
> : Albanians can want a school for Albanians in Macedonia then I think
> : Macedonians can have a school for Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece.
> : Wouldn't you agree.
>
>of the following:
>
>Two schools will be established. One "Macedonian" in Bulgaria, lets
>say in Petrich, and one Bulgarian, lets say in Prilep. Lets asumme that
>we can achive perfect conditions - no goverment interfirence, no
>reprocations of any kind for the students and tehir families, and asume
>that the skill of the teachers as well as the material base are the same.
>The whole point will be to see which school will atract more students. My personal opinion is that the one west of the border will have more
> students.
>
> Georgi Karadjov
And my personal opinion is that there will be more students to the east
of the border. Opinions aside, its not possible in either place, in
reality now is it? Nalionalism is very strong in each country, why do you
think that Albanians will have an impossible time in getting an Albanin
speaking University in Macedonia.
And I don't know of any Macedonians going to Bulgaria to University and
vise versa (England, USA, Germany, Austria, Australia, Serbia, yes,
Bulgaria, no).
Paris/Vanja
Galina
Wrongo, Paris,
There are Macedonian students at the American University in Bulgaria
paris
Galina.
>
> Wrongo, Paris,
>
> There are Macedonian students at the American University in Bulgaria
Um, AMERICAN University, does that mean they are learning at an American
Univeristy in Bulgaria, or a Bulgarian University named the American
University? I don't quite know what an American University is.
If it is an AmMerican University (are the classes taught in English by
American teachers or something? I do know there is something to that
effect in Albania as well)that doesn't mean they went to Bulgaria to
learn in Bulgarian now does it? Again I don't know what is meant by
American University.
Paris
Plamen Malinov
In article <333FDC...@merck.com>, paris <pa...@merck.com> wrote:
< ... <del>
<And I don't know of any Macedonians going to Bulgaria to University and
<vise versa (England, USA, Germany, Austria, Australia, Serbia, yes,
<
There are about twenty students from the RoM in the American University in
Blagoevgrad/Gorna Dzhumaja (Pirin Macedonia). By the way, this is the only
American University in South-Eastern Europe, with a staff from the U. S.
Regards: Plamen M.
Georgi Karadjov
irect.com> <333FDC...@merck.com>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: Georgi Karadjov wrote:
: >
: > paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: > : You go Goce, tell 'em like it is. Macedonia for Macedonians. If the
: > : Albanians can want a school for Albanians in Macedonia then I think
: > : Macedonians can have a school for Macedonian in Bulgaria and Greece.
: > : Wouldn't you agree.
: >
: >I would like to observe the results of an experiment, which will consist
: >of the following:
: >
: >Two schools will be established. One "Macedonian" in Bulgaria, lets
: >say in Petrich, and one Bulgarian, lets say in Prilep. Lets asumme that
: >we can achive perfect conditions - no goverment interfirence, no
: >reprocations of any kind for the students and tehir families, and asume
: >that the skill of the teachers as well as the material base are the same.
: >The whole point will be to see which school will atract more students. My personal opinion is that the one west of the border will have more
: > students.
: >
: > Georgi Karadjov
: And my personal opinion is that there will be more students to the east
: of the border. Opinions aside, its not possible in either place, in
: reality now is it? Nalionalism is very strong in each country, why do you
: think that Albanians will have an impossible time in getting an Albanin
: speaking University in Macedonia.
: And I don't know of any Macedonians going to Bulgaria to University and
: vise versa (England, USA, Germany, Austria, Australia, Serbia, yes,
: Bulgaria, no).
Misconseption - for example there are people in AU in Blgoevgrad, and
many ocasions of people from RoM going to Climent Ohridski University i
Sofia, especialy in the arts departments and some medicine.
Georgi Karadjov
: Paris/Vanja
: The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
: This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
: my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
: made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
: sender.
Galina
paris wrote:
>
> Galina.
> >
> > Wrongo, Paris,
> >
> > There are Macedonian students at the American University in Bulgaria
>
> Um, AMERICAN University, does that mean they are learning at an American
> Univeristy in Bulgaria, or a Bulgarian University named the American
> University? I don't quite know what an American University is.
>
> If it is an AmMerican University (are the classes taught in English by
> American teachers or something? I do know there is something to that
> effect in Albania as well)that doesn't mean they went to Bulgaria to
> learn in Bulgarian now does it? Again I don't know what is meant by
> American University.
>
> Paris
>
> This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
> my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
> made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
> sender.
Paris,
They teach in English there and the students are from all over. I have
a couple friends there but never asked them too much about the
University.
Georgi Karadjov
irect.com> <33404B...@tam2000.tamu.edu>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
Distribution:
Luben Todorovski (lit...@tam2000.tamu.edu) wrote:
: Georgi Karadjov wrote:
: >
: > I would like to observe the results of an experiment, which will consist
: > of the following:
: >
: > Two schools will be established. One "Macedonian" in Bulgaria, lets
: > say in Petrich, and one Bulgarian, lets say in Prilep. Lets asumme that
: > we can achive perfect conditions - no goverment interfirence, no
: > reprocations of any kind for the students and tehir families, and asume
: > that the skill of the teachers as well as the material base are the same.
: > The whole point will be to see which school will atract more students. My
: > personal opinion is that the one west of the border will have more
: > students.
: >
: > Georgi Karadjov
: >
: Indeed, another very incorrect view of Mr. Karadjov.
Would you like to argue on this point?
: Bube
Georgi Karadjov
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Georgi Karadjov
irect.com> <333FDC...@merck.com> <334098...@erols.com> <33414D...@merck.com> <3342BD...@erols.com>
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Distribution:
Galina (sp...@erols.com) wrote:
: paris wrote:
: >
: > Galina.
: > >
: > > Wrongo, Paris,
: > >
: > > There are Macedonian students at the American University in Bulgaria
: >
: > Um, AMERICAN University, does that mean they are learning at an American
: > Univeristy in Bulgaria, or a Bulgarian University named the American
: > University? I don't quite know what an American University is.
: >
: > If it is an AmMerican University (are the classes taught in English by
: > American teachers or something? I do know there is something to that
: > effect in Albania as well)that doesn't mean they went to Bulgaria to
: > learn in Bulgarian now does it? Again I don't know what is meant by
: > American University.
: >
: > Paris
: >
: > The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
: > This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
: > my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
: > made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
: > sender.
: Paris,
: They teach in English there and the students are from all over. I have
: a couple friends there but never asked them too much about the
: University.
The university was established in 91/92 in Blagoevgrad. It is like a
campuse of one of the east cost univiersities in the States, and the
students recive US diplomas. Education is done in the north american
fashion, and there are calsses in both bulgarian and english( mostly
english). There are such universities/campuses all over the palce - I
know of one in Jerusalem, Budapest, and so on/ My sister is atendid the
university, juralistk major. I can ask her for more details of you can
check the web page of the universisty( search under American University in
Bulgaria). The whole afair was a kind of a continuation of an old
tradition - in Sofia there was an American coledge for more than half a
century untill the commies closed it down in, I belive, 1947. Ironicaly,
the university that was closed by the commies got the brand new, finished
in 1988, regional hedqauters of the communist. A realy splendid buiding.
Georgi Karadjov
paris
Plamen Malinov wrote:
>
> In article <333FDC...@merck.com>, paris <pa...@merck.com> wrote:
> < ... <del>
> <vise versa (England, USA, Germany, Austria, Australia, Serbia, yes,
> <
> There are about twenty students from the RoM in the American University in
> Blagoevgrad/Gorna Dzhumaja (Pirin Macedonia). By the way, this is the only
> American University in South-Eastern Europe, with a staff from the U. S.
> Regards: Plamen M.
Which was my original point in the first place, they are not going to
Bulgaria to learn Bulgarian, they are going to an American University, to
learn I presume English and other matters western.
paris
> ----------------------------------------------------------------Ok, OK so I didn't state what I meant correctly, I meant I don't know of
Macedonians going to Bulgaria to learn in the Bulgarian language.As for
arts and medicine, I know I could have gone to Macedonia to go to medical
school cause it would have been less expensive than in the states, maybe
the same applys here, just a speculation.
But this AU everyone is talking about. Do they teach the classes in
English? If so then that really proves the fact about why they would be
in Bulgaria going to a Bulgarian school.
There are plenty of students going to Western countries to get a more
thorough and modern education. If an American University provides the
same in Bulgaria I would go there too, but I wouldn't go to a Bulgarian
University when I can get just as good an education in a Macedonian
University that would teach it in my own language, unless I couldn't get
into a Macedonian University in the first place.
Paris.
Georgi Karadjov
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: > ----------------------------------------------------------------Ok, OK so I didn't state what I meant correctly, I meant I don't know of
: arts and medicine, I know I could have gone to Macedonia to go to medical
: school cause it would have been less expensive than in the states, maybe
: the same applys here, just a speculation.
: But this AU everyone is talking about. Do they teach the classes in
: English? If so then that really proves the fact about why they would be
: in Bulgaria going to a Bulgarian school.
Most of the majors related classess are thought in english, but there are
classess such as Balkan history and some other ones are offered in
Bulgarian.
: There are plenty of students going to Western countries to get a more
: thorough and modern education. If an American University provides the
: same in Bulgaria I would go there too, but I wouldn't go to a Bulgarian
: University when I can get just as good an education in a Macedonian
: University that would teach it in my own language, unless I couldn't get
: into a Macedonian University in the first place.
The thing is that many people from RoM did go to the Bulgarian
univerisites, even before there was AU, just so they can resive some more
advance education, than what was available in RoM at the time.
Georgi Karadjov
: Paris.
: The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
: This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
: my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
: made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
: sender.
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paris
> The thing is that many people from RoM did go to the Bulgarian
> univerisites, even before there was AU, just so they can resive some more
> advance education, than what was available in RoM at the time.
>
> Georgi Karadjov
OK you've proved your point, but they also went to all other countries
i.e. Serbia too, again for advanced degrees not because they now wanted
to be Serbians, or Bulgarians. That was my original point in the first
place, they ARE NOT going to a Bulgarian University to BE MORE BULGARIAN.
They are not coming to America to become AMERICANS (or maybe they are who
knows) rather they are looking for a better life, and that is the whole
point anyway.
They are not denying their Macedonian heritage, just like I'm sure
Bulgarians go to other countries to get a better degree or advanced
degrees, they are not going to become something they are not,and
therefore the same applies to Macedonians. Macedonians are not
Bulgarians, no matter how much you want them to be.
Paris
Paris
Georgi Karadjov
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: > The thing is that many people from RoM did go to the Bulgarian
: > univerisites, even before there was AU, just so they can resive some more
: > advance education, than what was available in RoM at the time.
: >
: > Georgi Karadjov
: OK you've proved your point, but they also went to all other countries
: i.e. Serbia too, again for advanced degrees not because they now wanted
: to be Serbians, or Bulgarians. That was my original point in the first
: place, they ARE NOT going to a Bulgarian University to BE MORE BULGARIAN.
: They are not coming to America to become AMERICANS (or maybe they are who
: knows) rather they are looking for a better life, and that is the whole
: point anyway.
The whole point was that the statement made about no people from
RoM are going or have gone to Bulgaria to study is not corect. The other
twists of the plot are irelavent for this particular discusion. If there
is something else to be discused, just say so.
: They are not denying their Macedonian heritage, just like I'm sure
No one ask them to deny it.
: Bulgarians go to other countries to get a better degree or advanced
: degrees, they are not going to become something they are not,and
: therefore the same applies to Macedonians. Macedonians are not
: Bulgarians, no matter how much you want them to be.
Depending how you define Macedonians. If you define "Macedonians" as
some ethnicity, you are corect. If you define "Macedonains" as people
from Macedonia, then you are not corect. And another thing is that most
of the people who you say are "macedonains", come from families who were
Blgarians. That, because of many political reasons, many of the people we
are talking about now identify themselves with this new ethnicity does not
cahge the fact that they come from bulgarian roots.
: Paris
paris
>
> The whole point was that the statement made about no people from
> RoM are going or have gone to Bulgaria to study is not corect. The other
> twists of the plot are irelavent for this particular discusion. If there
> is something else to be discused, just say so.
>
> : They are not denying their Macedonian heritage, just like I'm sure
>
> No one ask them to deny it.
>
> : Bulgarians go to other countries to get a better degree or advanced
> : degrees, they are not going to become something they are not,and
> : therefore the same applies to Macedonians. Macedonians are not
> : Bulgarians, no matter how much you want them to be.
>
> Depending how you define Macedonians. If you define "Macedonians" as
> some ethnicity, you are corect. If you define "Macedonains" as people
> from Macedonia, then you are not corect. And another thing is that most
> of the people who you say are "macedonains", come from families who were
> Blgarians. That, because of many political reasons, many of the people we
> are talking about now identify themselves with this new ethnicity does not
> cahge the fact that they come from bulgarian roots.
>
> : Paris
>
> Georgi Karadjov
>
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don't bother to read the beginnings of them. Yes the whole matter was
about schoolong within our own borders and that we should all have
schools of only the national language within our own borders unless we
want to have private schools such as in churches to teach our ethnic
languages.
My original point was that Macedonians don't go to Bulgaria to become
more Bulgarian and I wrongly stated that I didn't know of any Macedonians
going to school in Bulgaria at which point several posters corrected me
and I respectfully admitted my ignorance. But the point was always Why
they would go to school and that it was a reason other than wanting to
learn more about their Bulgarian roots (if any).
As to my roots, I Am a MAcedonian with NO Bulgarian roots. I know I am
Macedonain with a Vlach ethnic and Greek(region) ancestry. So what does
that make me even though I speak Makedonski? I know what I am as well do
the people living in present day Macedonia.
You see its too late for you to convince us otherwise, we will Not agree,
maybe at some point in the past we would have bowwed our heads down and
said "yes Master, we are Bulgarian-Turk-Greek, whatever you want us to
be" but that time has unfortunately passed for you and fortunately for
us.
History aside Macedonia has its own internal problems to take care of,
and we make fun of you guys for thinking that anything can be changed -
it is simply too late.
george phillipov
Distribution:
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
:
: You see its too late for you to convince us otherwise, we will Not agree,
: maybe at some point in the past we would have bowwed our heads down and
: said "yes Master, we are Bulgarian-Turk-Greek, whatever you want us to
: be" but that time has unfortunately passed for you and fortunately for
: us.
my, my. What an arrogant and self-opinionated person is this Paris.
Not content with her(?) own ethnicity, she would now act as adjudicator
for all persons within the region for all time. Perhaps she does not
welcome the designators mentioned, but how (?) would she know the
feelings of the people in the past. In fact, no doubt she is one who
would "strip" those people of their own self-professed "ethnicity" to
somehow support her own tenuous convictions.
Who the hell wants you to agree anyway! Be what you want - big deal!
But don't talk on behalf of others. They have left their messages and
feelings, plain and clear - and we will not accept your defamation of
what they stood for and believed in.
Its tiring to read the endless drivel you spew forward on these pages,
what are you a "Maco" pr person employed by Merck?
George P.
paris
>
> Who the hell wants you to agree anyway! Be what you want - big deal!
> But don't talk on behalf of others. They have left their messages and
> feelings, plain and clear - and we will not accept your defamation of
> what they stood for and believed in.
>
> Its tiring to read the endless drivel you spew forward on these pages,
> George P.
Piss off, I think I've been very fair in everything I've said, if you
don't like it who cares. Besides I talk for myself and if others here who
are Macedonian don't want to ackowledge what I have to say then fine,
I'll listen to them, but certainly not you.
As to what others have left behind in their messages and feelings- well
what exactly are you talking about. I have seen other Macedonians
disagree with you as well, or are you talking about something else.
And if its tiring to read the endless drivel on these pages, then stop
reading, your an adult use your delete button, no need to respond now is
there!
Georgi Karadjov
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: >
: > The whole point was that the statement made about no people from
: You see its too late for you to convince us otherwise, we will Not agree,
: maybe at some point in the past we would have bowwed our heads down and
: said "yes Master, we are Bulgarian-Turk-Greek, whatever you want us to
: be" but that time has unfortunately passed for you and fortunately for
: us.
No one is asking you or anyone else in RoM to be something else than
what they percive them to be. I just ask that no one chages history in
orther to make the people in RoM feel better about themselves. I only ask
that anyone respect the selfidentity of people like Gotse Delchev and Dame
Grouev, and make something else from their memories than what they actauly
were. I do belive that it is not much to ask.
: History aside Macedonia has its own internal problems to take care of,
: and we make fun of you guys for thinking that anything can be changed -
: it is simply too late.
There is no such thing as to late. I do not want to be sarcastic or
something, but I just belive that there is no such thing as to late for
anything. I do belive if the people in RoM are exposed freely to the real
history of the region as it occured not as it was doctored by orders of
diffeent communist parties, many will have opinions different from yours.
I do belive that this is not offending statement in any fashion, and that
anyone has the right to decide for him/her selfe what is true and what is
not.
: Paris
Georgi Karadjov
paris
Georgi Karadjov wrote:
> : History aside Macedonia has its own internal problems to take care of,
> : and we make fun of you guys for thinking that anything can be changed -
> : it is simply too late.
>
> There is no such thing as to late. I do not want to be sarcastic or
> something, but I just belive that there is no such thing as to late for
> anything. I do belive if the people in RoM are exposed freely to the real
> history of the region as it occured not as it was doctored by orders of
> diffeent communist parties, many will have opinions different from yours.
> I do belive that this is not offending statement in any fashion, and that
> anyone has the right to decide for him/her selfe what is true and what is
> not.
>
> : Paris
>
> Georgi Karadjov
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------> : Visit our "Do-It-Yourself!" Website http://web.idirect.com :
> : Easy, Fun & Affordable Webspace rental for less than $10 per month :
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you and that's why I am here in this newsgroup to read and
learn. I guess I went a little off the deep end against what Bulgarians had
to say, but you are telling me things that make no sense, because the history
of Macedonia was not told to me in Yugo schools but rather in my household by
my grandparents, (who by the way were old enough to know what was going or at
least what had happened at the time of the whole battles between Turks and
Macedonians) .
Why would I not believe them. I also see the writings that Galina has posted,
and I think that she is supplying more information here than you are. SO post
some writings and letters by Goce Delchev that tells me he considers himself
Bulgarian and then maybe I'll believe you.
I haven't been on this newsgroup long. Maybe you've already posted it, how
about posting it again for my benefit and the other newbies or lurkers on
this group?
Jimmy Palatsoukas
In article <335296...@merck.com>, paris <pa...@merck.com> wrote:
>>
>> Who the hell wants you to agree anyway! Be what you want - big deal!
>> But don't talk on behalf of others. They have left their messages and
>> feelings, plain and clear - and we will not accept your defamation of
>> what they stood for and believed in.
>>
>> Its tiring to read the endless drivel you spew forward on these pages,
>
>> George P.
>
>Piss off, I think I've been very fair in everything I've said, if you
>don't like it who cares. Besides I talk for myself and if others here who
>are Macedonian don't want to ackowledge what I have to say then fine,
>I'll listen to them, but certainly not you.
>
>As to what others have left behind in their messages and feelings- well
>what exactly are you talking about. I have seen other Macedonians
>disagree with you as well, or are you talking about something else.
>
>And if its tiring to read the endless drivel on these pages, then stop
>reading, your an adult use your delete button, no need to respond now is
>there!
If you consider yourself as fair, then when you are referring to Macedonians
please attach something to that term so we know with respect to who you are
talking about. There are Greeks and Bulgarians who consider themselves
Macedonians as well. Show some respect for their heritage please.
jimmy
Slavko Mangovski
A living example of this kind of solution is the Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics.
(The above text is taken from a larger article: "Problems of the
Communist Opposition in Greece" and was
published for the first time in the journal "Spartakos", number 2 in
February of 1928).
1.The Opposition here means the Trotskyist opposition within the
Greek Communist Party.
2.Rizospastis (=Radical) is the newspaper of the Greek Communist
Party.
3.Komitatzis in Greek means an armed Bulgarian guerilla
The Macedonian problem - how 'non-existent' is it?
H.T.
The Macedonian question has existed for some time and still exists, no
matter how 'unpatriotic' it is deemed to
be.
Not only the history of the Slav-Macedonian population of Greece in the
20th century, but also an on the spot
journalistic or sociological survey in the regions of Florina, Kastoria,
Pellis, Kilkis and so on will persuade the
most cautious observer that if nothing else, there exists on Greek
territory today a minority with different
language, different cultural and national characteristics. It has been
catalogued by the censuses of 1928 and
1940.
This minority was exploited by EAM-ELAS and the Republican Army (1) and
has been persecuted at various
times and in many ways by the Greek state.
Every nation state and every social formation arises out of historical
developments and claims for itself a
particular fictious homogeneity and unity, set in place not only by the
line-up of class forces but also by the
predominance of a national, linguistic, cultural grouping. War, economic
control, colonialism and also the
imposition of a cultural and linguistic monopoly are basic preconditions
for the establishment of every nation
state.
Within the confines of class societies, ethnic, religious and cultural
minorities are obliged to defend themselves
against organised attempts to render them passive, to integrate them.
The history of the formation of Modern Greek society and civilisation is
determined by the contradictory
problem of the co-existence in the one geographical area of several
ethnic groups.
Through its various adventures (the international conditions of 1826-32,
annexation of the Eptanisa and
Thessaly, the "Macedonian struggle", wars of 1912-13, more adventures in
1919-23, foreign occupation, acquisition
of the Dodecanese and so on) the Greek state has pulled together its
present form, in an effort which did not
restrict itself to ideology, to build up a unity and homogeneity. All
this is in spite of the fact that in today's
Greece there live not only Greeks but also Turks, Albanians, Vlachs,
Bulgars, other Slavs, Jews, Armenians and
more.
A tough job indeed to homogenize all these!
During the period of 1904-08 the bourgeoisies of Greece and Bulgaria
found themselves demanding not only
large sections of the wider Macedonian area, but also state rulership
over the Slav-Macedonians. Whatever
armed gang happened to occupy a particular region obliged the
Slav-Macedonian population to follow it and
cleave to the Greek patriarchate or to the Bulgarian exiarchate.
So it is not surprising to find that official historiography in the "era
of Macedonian struggle" contains tales of
Greek slaughter or violence at the expense of Slav-Macedonians and
Bulgarian villages which did not declare
themselves Greek. What is more, Slav speaking people were numbered among
the Greeks, even though they
called themselves Stojko, Mitre, Trajko, Stojan or Zlate... or succeeded
in being declared Greek only through
the intervention of a translator.
In any event, the census of 1928 makes mention of 81844 Slav speakers,
that of 1940 mentions 94509. The army
general staff claims the numbers were less than this, whereas
independent surveys put the numbers at about
double! What is certain is that the Greek state accepted the existence
of a Slav-Macedonian minority.
It is natural enough that this Slav-Macedonian consciousness is called
into question and not just "officially",
but the argument is refuted on at least five grounds: I
(a) the economic, social, political and cultural history of the
Slav-Macedonian population of the wider
Greek region,
(b) the existence of a distinct Slav-Macedonian dialect,
(c) the historical creation of legal and cultural forms, which
distinguish and characterize the minority
(such as the zadruga, farming collective),
(d) the semantic vagueness of the ideological concept of "national
consciousness",
(e) the historical realization that for a collective to draw itself
together with shared national
characteristics it does not necessarily do so through a national
liberation movement, nor does it prevent
the acquisitive interest of already existing nation states.
If the position of the Greek state on this matter is to be expected,
there is on the other hand considerable
interest in the history of the Communist Party's line, as much in regard
to the national minority issue generally
as to the Slav-Macedonians.
In the beginning, anti-militarist and internationalist communists in
Greece (who had recommended desertion
and had entered the army to make revolutionary propaganda during the
1919-22 period), followed the policy of
a Balkan Communist Federation. From the end of 1924, a decision of the
third extraordinary council meeting
embraced the aim of a united Balkan confederation; in other words, an
autonomous polyethnic state in the
Macedonian and Thracian area. What was later erased in 1927 (Kordatos,
Apostolidis) (2) points up the
difficulties and limits of this line. Many of the 3031 fighters who
after 1929 were thrown out of Greece, were
dealt with because they had sought the "breaking off of a portion of the
empire".
Even as late as January 1934 the CP would acknowledge that national
oppression existed and would speak
about "national self determination even to the point of separatism for
oppressed Macedonians and Thracians".
But the radical strategic and political realignments of 1934-36 (United
and Popular Fronts, intervention in
reformist unions, anti-dictatorship co-operation with the more
'enlightened' political representatives of the
bourgeoisie and so on) altered the climate within which the line on
Macedonia might change. From April and
finally in December 1935 the relevant slogans of the CP based themselves
on the idea equal political and
national rights of all minorities. The shift was towards equality of
rights and away from self determination.
In this period, on the side of the People's Party, Gocan's
pro-monarchist notion of 'Macedonian Union' arose.
This entailed administrative independence for Macedonia and the removal
of (Asia Minor) refugees. This
political formation won 14.8% of the vote in Macedonia at the 1935
elections.
After the Italian invasion, the position of the CP that the national
minorities belonged to the "moving forces of
the revolution" (Decision of the 6th Plenum, January 1934), was diluted
within the new national independence
orientation (first letter of Zakhariadis, Statement of Formation of EAM,
etc) (3).
The violence of the Bulgarians required the CP, within the EAM, to
express its outrage and its solidarity with
the (homogeneous and indivisible?) people of Macedonia and Thrace. In
any case, around the middle of 1943,
the now strong ELAS, which had taken on the job of balancing the
Bulgarian interest in the Slav-Macedonians,
declared its faith in the militant and brotherly unity of Greeks and
Slav-Macedonians who "fight hand in hand
for the liberation of the common homeland, Greece" and declared the need
to stop all persecution of this
particular minority, permit the speaking of its language and more
generally to ensure complete equality of
rights.
However there were some Slav-Macedonians who agreed or were compelled by
the Germans to arm
themselves and fight in the reactionary PAO. Towards the end of 1943 and
the beginning of 1944, ELAS
undertook to "bring them to their senses", destroying their villages or
murdering the opinion leaders among the
Slav-Macedonians, as in the case of Goumensia (Easter 1944).
The formation of SNOF (Slav-Macedonian People's Liberation Front) in
June 1944, out of two independent
Slav-Macedonian battalions in Kastoria and Edessa, would be viewed later
on as mistaken and damaging
because they would eventually head off to join the partizans of
Yugoslavia and leave the EAM network.
Naturally, bourgeois critics of EAM-ELAS pretend not to know that the
whole posture of the CP and the
resistance organisations in regard to the Slav-Macedonians corresponded
to their own interest in ensuring the
continuation of the Greek nation state and 'normal' settling of the
problem of minorities by having them stay
within and under the rule of the Greek state.
After 1946, the CP invested a great deal in strengthening the
Slav-Macedonians because the bases of the
Republican Army were indeed in areas where the numbers of this minority
were large, perhaps even a
majority. A number of leaders agree that one in three of the fighters of
the Republican Army in the
Macedonian area was Slav-Macedonian. If then 10,000 men and 1,000 women
of this group fought in the
Republican Army and many more were forced from the area or offered
services to the movement, then the
return of the CP (in 1949) to the line of self determination was a
little late in coming, especially if we accept
that the Slav-Macedonians did not enter the struggle of the Republican
Army simply to serve the advancement
of the "common homeland, Greece".
Today in Florina, Kastoria, Kilkis, Pellis and other regions , there as
many Slav-Macedonians as did not escape
after August 1949 into Yugoslavia. It is worth noting that if Metaxas
(1) recognised the existence of 95,000
Slav-Macedonians in 1940, today Sarzetakis and Papathemelis speak of a
"non-existent" nationality and
language.
But these men at the loudspeaker of national self aggrandizement (who
can still be insulted in Australia by
non-existent representatives of a non-existent nationality!) have to
face up to an unhappy dilemma. They must
accept and show either that some kind of genocidal event has wiped out
this particular minority or that "dark
forces" have undertaken to bankroll several thousands of provocateurs
who, in order to bring into doubt the
pure Hellenism of Macedonia, persist in speaking the non-existent
Slav-Macedonian dialect.
It is obvious though that the Panhellenes and their followers will only
with difficulty give up their love affair
with the ghost of Alexander the Great. It is a problem for any section
of the left; official, renovated,
revolutionary or any other section of the left, insofar as it ignores or
tries to ignore the issue and the first acts
of resistance of the Slav-Macedonians of North West (Greek) Macedonia.
The issue is especially relevant to those who demand "autonomy" in the
face of ruling class ideology and
politics, because they serve to countersign the features of its politics
that deal with the nation state, the
integrity of national borders, "danger" from the east or north or
whatever direction!
One thing is easy to guess: being at all sensitive to personal,
political and social rights forces you to touch on
the problems of a minority which has been persecuted by all means and
yet today is regarded as non-existent.
(The above article was published in "Worker Solidarity" number 30,
January 1989)
See translator's introduction
1.Kordatos and Apostolidis were leaders of SEKE and the early KKE.
SEKE was the socialist party from
which the communist party was born.
2.Nikos Zakhariadis, trained in the Soviet Union, was KKE General
Secretary in 1934. He was elected to
parliament shortly before Metaxas came to power in 1936.
The Slav-Macedonians in the Resistance and the Civil War
Petros Tsangaris
The collapse of Yugoslavia and the likelihood of the Republic of
Macedonia becoming independent has sent
Greece into a "national frenzy" over the Macedonian question.
On the right and unfortunately also on the left, the opinion is put
about that there is some kind of unpatriotic
conspiracy, at times by the Americans, at others the Italians, earlier
on by the Serbians. The fact that the State
Department spoke of oppression of the Slav-Macedonians in Greece was the
'unshakeable proof' of the
existence of such an American role, while the postponement of the four
way Balkan conference, through which
Mitsotakis hoped to isolate the Republic of Macedonia, was blamed by the
Greek press on the Italians.
But the history of the Slav-Macedonians shows not only that they were
not the agents of some particular
imperialism. On the country, they had struggled against the Nazis, the
Italian fascists and American
imperialism, on the side of EAM and the Republican Army.
Oppression
In 1928, the official statistics showed that there were 82,000
Slav-Macedonians living in Greek Western
Macedonia. The Greek governments did not recognise this population as an
ethnic minority, it saw them as
Greeks. Of course, there was no political support for maintaining their
cultural inheritance nor their language.
Only Greek was taught in schools.
The arrival of the Metaxas dictatorship in 1936 meant an extensive
pogrom at the expense of Slav-Macedonians
in order to hellenise them by force. They were forbidden under heavy
penalties from speaking their language
in public and massive sections of the population were exiled.
At the exact same time, the Yugoslav government was following a
similarly violent Serbification of those
Slav-Macedonians who lived in Yugoslavia. There too they were not
recognised as a minority, thousands were
jailed or exiled, and a plan was enacted to colonize the area with
Serbs.
These tactics clearly were not able to solve the problem in either
country. The desire to resist became all the
stronger among the Slav-Macedonians. Oppression just served to unite
them in a common consciousness.
In Yugoslavia the resistance reached its peak in 1939 and 1940 with
daily demonstrations against the
government in Belgrade. In Greece the struggle of the Slav-Macedonians
was to emerge onto the stage of
history within the context of the Resistance and the Civil War.
Resistance and the Civil War
In 1941 EAM and ELAS were formed under the leadership of the Communist
Party, which supported equal
rights for the Slav-Macedonian minority. The cream of that minority
turned towards ELAS. Thousands of
Slav-Macedonian fighters headed for its lines in Western Macedonia.
In 1944 the Slav-Macedonian People's Liberation Front, known as SNOF was
formed. It was the political
organisation of the Slav-Macedonians within EAM. Keramicef, from the
executive committee of SNOF, was
also a member of PEEA (Political Committee for National Liberation),
that is to say, the government of Free
Greece.
The 2/28 battalion in the Florina/Kastoria region and the battalion of
Kaymakcalan in the Edessa/Aridhaia
region were purely Slav-Macedonian units. It is no accident that when
the militia entered Western Macedonia
in April 1945, the Slav-Macedonians paid in blood for their co-operation
with the Communist Party and the
resistance.
At the same time in Yugoslavia the Slav-Macedonians there fought
alongside Tito's partizans. Under the
leadership of general Vukmanovic (also known as Tempo) they organised
their own resistance units and joined
the Communist Party en masse.
Official Greek propaganda has it that there is no Macedonian national
consciousness but that some are Serbs
and some are Bulgarians. But as we saw in the case of Yugoslavia and of
Bulgaria, rivers of blood separate
them from Slav-Macedonians. In April 1942 Slav-Macedonian partizans
organised an uprising in the ares of
Monastiri and Prilep. It was drowned in blood by the Bulgarian army of
occupation. The non-combatant
population responded with mass demonstrations which in turn were met
with mass murder by the Bulgarians.
Back in Greece immediately following the Varkiza agreement the successor
to SNOF was formed, the National
Liberation Front known as NOF. A women's organisation was also formed,
the AZF (Women's Antifascist
Front).
In the autumn of 1946 armed divisions of NOF joined forces with the
Republican Army of the Greek
Communist Party, fighting against the Greek right and patriotic
organisations which were active in the area.
Note again that at the end of the civil war the Slav-Macedonians had
14,000 fighters from a total of 40,000 of
the whole Republican Army. In 1949, NOF had two members of parliament in
the mountain government. Mass
participation in the struggle also meant mass participation as refugees:
at least 35,000 Slav-Macedonians shared
the fate of being uprooted from their homeland along with Greek comrades
after their defeat in the civil war.
The Communist Party
The position of the Greek Communist Party regarding the Slav-Macedonians
throughout this whole period was
exceptionally vacillating.
The essential problem lay in its continual retreat under the pressure of
Greek nationalism but also the
subjugation to the needs of the foreign policy of the Stalinist
bureaucracy.
For the leadership of the CP, alliances with bourgeois and patriotic
parties within EAM, such as Svolos, who
was a fanatical believer in the Greekness of Macedonia and leader of the
patriotic "Committee for the defence
of Northern regions"...these were more valuable than consistent
internationalist politics.
So that, in the official meeting of Siantos on behalf of the leadership
of the Greek CP with Vukmanovic,
Siantos denied the possibility of any solution to the Macedonian
question which might touch on the borders of
Greece after the war. What is more, the leadership of the CP torpedoed
the agreement between Tzimas and
Vukmanovic for coordination of resistance within a Balkan general
headquarters, by proposing that ELAS
enter the British (!) headquarters for the Middle East. A natural
consequence of this politics was the refusal of
the CP to accept the formation of separate military organisations of the
Slav-Macedonians during the first
years of the resistance.
Even though it allowed the formation of SNOF, many leading figures and
ordinary members were tossed out
of ELAS. In October 1944 the two battalions of Slav-Macedonians were
obliged to cross the border into
Yugoslav territory.
The CP viewed NOF with the same suspicion and up to 1946 said so openly.
Pressure from its own rank and
file however forced it towards the opposite direction because everyone
could see what side the
Slav-Macedonians were on and how willing they were to throw themselves
into the struggle.
The Tito-Stalin split led a series of communist parties to purge
Titoists. In keeping with this, the CP beheaded
the NOF, purging its leadership and imposing a new, well controlled one.
Zahariadis, a leader of the CP at the time, revived the old
internationalist line for opportunist reasons. He
promised that "the Slav-Macedonian people will find full national
reinstatement, as it wishes".
The primary aim of this shift was to split off Slav-Macedonians from the
influence of the Yugoslav
Communist Party. If Tito promised a Macedonian state in Skopje,
Zahariadis promised another independent
Macedonian state.
The secondary aim was to guarantee military support from the Macedonian
minority in view of the desperate
situation facing the Republican Army.
The Slav-Macedonians responded positively. Insofar as it was the Greek
communists who were promising self
determination, they threw themselves anew, with all their strength, into
struggle alongside them.
A nation in struggle
The Slav-Macedonians, or as they wish to be known, the Macedonians, are
therefore not some artificial
contrivance of imperialists, nor of Tito, nor of anyone else. They are
an ethnic group which fought against
imperialist interventions in their region, which survived despite
oppression and unending persecution. They
have been acknowledged by three ruling classes: those of Greece,
Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.
The Slav-Macedonians always oriented themselves to whatever left-wing
forces, of any of the three countries,
showed a willingness to support their elementary rights.
So, before the First World War they supported IMRO, which had a
socialist orientation. At the start of the
resistance struggle, they supported the Bulgarian CP and later ELAS.
Until the spring of 1943 the Yugoslav CP
had no influence among the Slav-Macedonians. Even the local Communist
Party could not control them.
Only when Tito changed his line, recognising the Macedonians as equal
with the other ethnic groups of
Yugoslavia, was he able to win their trust.
Characteristically, the first president of the mini-state of Macedonia
was Vlakhov, a parliamentarian in the
Thessalian federation of 1908, later a member of the Bulgarian CP and
finally of the Yugoslav CP.
Today this propaganda about artificial ethnicities seems all the more
moronic, at the moment when the
Macedonians have chosen by referendum to become independent from
Yugoslavia. These were not imperialist
agents who voted. They are people who had been hunted by the Greek
bourgeoisie and suffered Stalinist
persecution in post-war Eastern Europe, people who want finally to have
a land to escape to.
Given that no-one can assert today that behind the Macedonians lies the
hand of Serbia (which is more their
enemy), one is reduced to trying to discover some kind of hand from
across the Atlantic!
The left must not involve itself in this kind of 'detective work', nor
nationalist ravings about the ancient world.
How much connection there may be between Slav-Macedonians and Alexander
the Great is of supreme
indifference to us. How much connection they have with the left is of
considerably more importance. This is
the history of the Slav-Macedonians to which we must return.
(The above article was published in 'Worker Solidarity' number 60,
October 1991)
Slavko Mangovski
What about the Macedonians? In Aegean Macedonia they had to endure being
'tidied up' through compulsory
Hellenisation. In the kingdom of Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia
Macedonians were met with the oppression of
Serbian nationalism (as were the Croats and Moslems). In Bulgarian
Macedonia the VMRO degenerated into a
servile organisation in the hands of Bulgarian nationalists. The
epilogue to this phase of the Macedonian
struggle was presented most graphically by Leon Trotsky, who as wartime
correspondent of a Kiev newspaper
had followed the Balkan Wars. He wrote:
"The revolutionaries of national struggles, as opposed to social
revolutionaries, always endeavor to
unite their conspiratorial action with diplomatic efforts either
towards their own country or
towards others... If the Hungarian Kossuth and the Italian Mazzini
often appealed to the people
and also the European diplomats, how much more directly was this
strategy imposed on the
revolutionaries of little backward Macedonia, which found itself at
the crossroads of international
interests... The patent in ability to decide the fate of Macedonia
by recourse to their own strength
forced the macedonian revolutionaries to bargain with the
aspirations of the major and minor
powers - the war swallowed them up". (22/10/1912)
Macedonia and the Communist Party
In 1923 the Bulgarian government of Stamboliski (Peasant Party), in an
attempt to improve relations between
Bulgaria and Serbia, signed the Treaty of Nish. It was seen as a
betrayal. The VMRO supported the army coup
which toppled Stamboliski and organised his assassination.
The Bulgarian Communist Party at first declared itself neutral in this
"confrontation between two wings of the
bourgeois class". Through the intervention of the Comintern however, the
Bulgarian CP realised that it had
abstained at a crucial moment of class struggle and tried belatedly to
correct its mistake by means of an
unsuccessful uprising in the autumn of 1923.
Weakened by these events, the Bulgarian CP tried to pull together an
anti-dictatorship front alongside the
Peasant Party and to try to draw the VMRO leftwards once again, raising
the demand for an independent
Macedonia within a Balkan Federation - as opposed to the demand for the
absorption of Macedonia into
Bulgaria. In fact, an agreement between the CP and VMRO was signed but
the leaders of the VMRO reneged.
Only a small section gathered around Vlakhov, who had reentered center
stage, organised within the CP as an
expression of Macedonian federationists as opposed to Bulgarian
chauvinists.
The decision of the Fifth Congress of the Third International (1924)
regarding Macedonia belongs to this
period. It was adopted by the Greek Communist Party and other parties of
the Balkan Communist federation.
It emphasized the right of Macedonians to break free from Greece, Serbia
and Bulgaria in order to set up their
own independent state.
This decision has often been criticised as mistaken because it created
the pretext for bourgeois governments to
accuse the Greek Communist Party of national betrayal and thereby to
isolate it. The Comintern had, it was
said, imposed its will from above on behalf of the Bulgarian Communist
Party without taking into account the
consequences for the other communist parties. The Comintern had also,
supposedly, failed to take into
consideration the changed composition of the population of Macedonia
following the transfer of the Greek
population from Turkey.
These criticisms are baseless. The Greek CP, in spite of its weaknesses
at that time, was a revolutionary party
which had come into conflict with Greek expansionism when it condemned
the Asia Minor adventure.
Bourgeois condemnations of CP 'national betrayal' existed in any event,
regardless of the Macedonian question.
The problem of the oppression of the Macedonians for example, through
attempts to extinguish their language,
whether they be a minority or not, was a reality.
The Third International at this time, now without Lenin and Trotsky,
under the leadership of Zinoviev (who
was working hand in hand with Stalin in an anti-Trotsky push), had begun
to show signs of bureaucratisation
and political vacillation - but it was in no way comparable to the
Stalinist monolith which came to be later on.
The crux of the problem lies elsewhere. At the time the Balkan Communist
Parties were still quite young.
They were indeed revolutionary working class parties, but they were very
vulnerable. They did not have an
experienced, stable leadership which could absorb and concretize the
revolutionary gains of the first
congresses of the Comintern. At a time when revolutionary turmoil had
begun to subside (beginning at the end
of the First World War, 1917-23), the Communist Parties had great
difficulty carving out a concrete political
line and holding themselves together. As well as these difficulties, the
rising Stalinism began to impose itself,
leading the CPs to degeneration as bureaucratic reformist parties,
chasing after alliances with the middle
classes.
The Balkan Communist Parties tried to map out a revolutionary policy in
regard to the Macedonian issue but
without great success. The Greek CP remained faithful (up to 1935) to
the 1924 position of the Comintern in its
occasional decisions but did not succeed in breaking Macedonians away
from the influence of Bulgarian
chauvinism. The united VMRO of Vlakhov limped along until 1935, when it
was dissolved. The Serbian (and
later Yugoslav) Communist Party could not quite keep its own line
separate from Serbian nationalism. During
the 1930s, with a turn towards popular fronts, the Yugoslav CP ceased to
speak of the right of self
determination in terms of looking at the various nationalities which
were being oppressed by Serbs, but rather
set out a program of autonomy for the nationalities within the orbit of
a united Yugoslav state.
The demand for an independent Macedonia was replaced by an orientation
towards Macedonia as part and
parcel of a federated Yugoslavia.
This line was put into practice following the victory of Tito's
partizans. The guerilla war in Yugoslav
Macedonia had developed considerably and had had to deal with fascist
occupation. This meant a break with
the influence of Bulgarian nationalists and moving to become part of
Yugoslavia. The position of president of
the first Macedonia within Yugoslavia was taken by Vlakhov. In spite of
twists and turns (from Federation to
Dimitrov and Stalin, finally towards Tito) he was a symbol of the
continuity of the national demands of the
Macedonians.
Today the Macedonian question is being fired up once more and connects
with the crisis taking place inside
Yugoslavia. Military scenarios are being put together by militarists in
East and West, based on the expected
collapse of a united Yugoslav state under the weight of antagonisms
between its many nationalities - all of
which is made even more acute by an economic crisis. Serbian nationalism
is re-awakening, while in Slovenia,
Kosovo and Vojvodina other ethnic groups are becoming anxious.
All the commotion about "provocations from Skopje" is nothing but
camouflage for the preparations being
made by Greek capitalism to ensure that it does not miss out on any
intervention, military or diplomatic, in the
event of 'chaos' in Yugoslavia.
The answer to chauvinist declarations from the Greek bourgeoisie is
inseparable from the anti-militarist
struggle of the working class here in Greece.
On the national question
Pantelis Pouliopoulos
1.The new persecution of communism and the workers' movement
generally which began with the
monarchist-liberal government because of the policy on the national
question, which was voted on at the
Extraordinary Congress of November 1924 and was ratified by the 3rd
regular congress of the KKE, has
put before the Opposition (1) the question whether a discussion of
controversial matters of tactics might
perhaps provide ammunition for reactionary lawcourts. For this
reason the Opposition very correctly,
maintained its well known stance inside and outside parliament.
2.The development of this campaign of persecution shows that reaction
cares not a whit for disagreements
over tactics, it lets loose this persecution against all
communists; that is to say, against all in Greece
today who accept and see it as their duty to proclaim the
internationalist principles of communism. In
the first ranks of those imprisoned and persecuted are tens of
oppositionist comrades.
At the same time, a slander campaign has begun in Rizospastis (2)
against the Opposition, using the vile
method of twisting its views on the national question, with the aim
of lessening the undoubted influence
which it has with all members of the party. The honourable position
of the persecuted comrades is called
into question by assertions, for example, that the Opposition
regards the policy of the party as
komitatzidic (3) and similar assertions.
These two facts make it urgent that the Opposition once and for all
outline its official position on the
national question in Greece.
3.The regular Congress of November 1924 clearly declared, for the
first time in Greece, the basic principle
of communism on the national question, which is based on the right
of nations to self determination even
to the extent of separation, and the attempt to bring together the
fight for this right with the struggle for
proletarian revolution, which is the only path for actually solving
the national question. The congress
also clearly showed the need for the Greek Communist Party to apply
these principles and defend this
right in regard to the Macedonian minority. From this point of
view, the decision of the conference has
full authority for every Greek communist.
4.The slogans of 1924, "United and independent Macedonia", "United
and independent Thrace" are tactical
slogans. Based on the aforementioned principle of communism these
two slogans never had, nor could
have, a separatist meaning... that is to say, the idea that the KKE
has decided to organise conspiracies and
uprisings in those regions, to "break them off from the Greek
empire". The Communist Parties of all
countries of the world, as proletarian parties, have no interest in
organizing such conspiracies. Instead,
they systematically prepare the social revolution for the overthrow
of capitalist exploitation and the
establishment of Socialism.
The policy of the communists on the national question aims to
contribute to this social transformation. It
aims to turn the outrage of oppressed nationalities from the
nationalist road to the anticapitalist road -
the only road for throwing off every yoke: national, social,
intellectual - it teaches the working masses
to think internationally, and in this way shows itself to be the
only consistent defender of the right of
national self determination, which on the lips of bourgeois
diplomacy is nothing but a shameful lie.
5.The tactic, expressed by the 1924 slogans: "United and independent
Macedonia", "United and independent
Thrace", based itself on a mature weighing up of the revolutionary
forces in the Balkans, which has been
going on throughout the conferences of the Balkan Communist
Federation (5th, 6th, 7th) and more
precisely, it has accompanied the organisation of worker-peasant
revolution in Bulgaria, which was
defeated by fascist terror.
Discussion about the tactic of the BCF and especially the Bulgarian
Communist Party at this particular
period - this tactic being firmly tied to the two slogans - can and
must take place within the Communist
Parties of the Balkans, with the aim of trying to find whatever
mistakes may have been made and to
draw all the lessons of experience for the future. For the sake of
such a discussion, the presidency of the
BCF must provide the necessary materials to everyone, taking of
course all of the normal precautions
against infiltration.
6.Irrespective however of the position that one takes on this
historical question, there is no doubt that the
two slogans: "United and independent Macedonia", and "United and
independent Thrace" cannot even for
propaganda purposes be thrown up by the KKE because they come into
conflict with the obvious line up
of forces, as it has developed mainly from the grass roots changes
that have taken place (the lack of a
national-revolutionary movement in Greece, general retreat of the
national-revolutionary movement,
transformation of the autonomist organisations into organs of
Italian fascism, extermination of
federationists) as well as the huge ethnic changes which happened
with the massive influx of Greek
refugees into Macedonia and Thrace.
Consequently the slogans, which the 3rd regular Congress held
simply to be propagandist, not only have
no propaganda value for the program of communism, they damage the
revolutionary struggle of the
Greek proletariat. Instead of teaching the working masses in Greece
to think in an internationalist way,
they cloud their thinking with the great confusion they create, a
confusion which is reflected in the mess
of perceptions which from the beginning and into the present was
created by these slogans among the
most conscious workers and communists. (One contradiction after
another in the journalistic organs of
the party, a veritable tower of Babel among the party's
parliamentarians which has embarrassed
communism, hysterical formulations by the "Leninists" of the
political bureau about the recent bombing
attempt by Bulgarian fascists which was condemned by "Humanite":
"The latest explosions... are
occasional manifestations... of the sense of outrage of the
Macedonian people. They are attempts... to
achieve the throwing off of the national yoke which is weighing
down the Macedonian people!!!)
(Rizospastis, 30 September 1927. Leading article)
7.The Opposition of the KKE regards it as the urgent duty of all
oppositionist comrades who are accused,
indeed any of its members, to decisively defend the
internationalist policy of communism against all
slanders. They are obliged unhesitatingly to condemn nationalist
policies, which the Greek, in common
with the Serbian and Bulgarian bourgeoisies have applied through
"voluntary" and involuntary migrations
of the unfortunate Macedonian people, using them as victims once
again of chauvinist Asia Minor
adventures.
They must declare with all their might that far from solving the
Macedonian problem, these methods
complicate it even further and perpetuate the causes of new destructive
wars.
The only way to find a definite solution to the issue is through a
united struggle of all oppressed nationalities
and refugees, together with the worker and peasant masses of the Balkan
region to establish a Balkan
Federation of Worker Peasant Republics. This is the only way the
Macedonian people can achieve full national
self determination, including a separate state, if that is their wish.
Slavko Mangovski
ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
pamphlet
"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
Greek socialist group OSE
(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
charges for having distributed this
pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
for them.
I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
question
2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
within Greece to it's position on
Macedonia
So far I have distributed this pamphlet on USENET, an activists mailing
list ACTIV-L, a Macedonian mailing
list MAK-NEWS, and via email to about a dozen people who asked for it.
People who receive this pamphlet can do several things to help:
1.ake a financial contribution to the fighting fund to defend the
Greek socialists
2.Redistribute this pamphlet in as many ways and places you can think
of (with this post attached please)
3.Send statements of support (from groups, individuals, unions,
campuses etc.) to this email address:
phs...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
A bit later on I will make a laid-out postscript and laser-jet version
of this pamphlet and upload it to some ftp
site. Can anyone suggest a sympathetic site?
Also, this pamphlet is available in hardcopy. We can arrange to have
bulk (or individual) copies sent via
airmail. This pamphlet cost $4 Australian to produce and I guess there
would be a charge for postage.
Contributions can be sent to
OSE solidarity campaign c/o ISO Australia, GPO Box 1473N Melbourne 3001
Organosi Sosialistiki Epanastasi, T Th 8161, 100 10 Omonia, Athens
Tony Hartin
International Socialist Organisation
Australia
Contents
1.Translator's introduction
2.Press release
3.Prologue
4.Macedonia: new chauvinist mobilisation
5.On the national question
6.Macedonia: how "non-existent" is it?
7.The Slav-Macedonians in the Resistance and the Civil War
8.The Macedonian question and the unhistorical Kathimerini
9.The crisis in Yugoslavia
10.National or class strategy?
11.No to chauvinism
Translator's Introduction
The urgency which lies behind the publication of this pamphlet is due to
the fact that five members of the
Greek revolutionary marxist OSE (Organisation Socialist Revolution) have
been charged for publishing and
promoting a pamphlet on the Macedonian question. They face trial on 18
September 1992. (See the Press
Release which follows this introduction).
The Greek government wishes the world to believe that there is total
support for its line on Macedonia, a line
it has been cultivating for some years now. The aim in 1988 of sending
an exhibition of "Macedonian
antiquities" to Australia was to assert that Macedonia is a Greek word,
and has been so for centuries ...
notwithstanding the existence in Australia of a migrant population of
thousands who call themselves
Macedonian and their language Macedonian, yet it is a slavic, not a
Greek, language.
OSE's pamphlet "The Crisis in the Balkans: the Macedonian question and
the working class" provides proof
that there are large numbers of Greeks who do not follow the
conservative government's line. The pamphlet
argues that there is an oppressed Macedonian minority in Greece and that
the roots of its oppression reach
back to the Greek Civil War of 1945-49, the Balkan Wars and beyond.
The pamphlet consists of several articles printed in OSE's newspaper
"Worker Solidarity" from 1988 to the
present. We have offered this translation of nine of the articles
contained in the pamphlet to give an
impression of just what the Greek government wants to censor. We hope to
show that there is now and for a
long time has been a workers' internationalist view of the Macedonians,
that the socialist movement must
remain vitally connected with their struggle.
It is all the more important today, with the collapse of the Stalinist
regimes of Eastern Europe, and Yugoslavia
in flames, to reassert the tradition of socialism from below, the only
tradition to offer a way forward from
nationalist adventures and chauvinist warmongering, of precisely the
type we see in the Balkans area today.
I have selected nine of the ten articles. I have omitted an article
taken from Trotsky's writings on the Balkan
wars because they are already available to English speakers. They
provide an excellent basis for coming to
grips with the crisis in the Balkans today.
I apologise for the fact that I cannot explain the role and political
persuasion of everyone mentioned in the
pamphlet. To offer a bit of help however to readers who are less
familiar with modern Greek history, here are
a few notes:
Mitsotakis heads up the conservative New Democracy government of Greece
today. It has lost a great deal of
popular support through its economic austerity policies.
Its main parliamentary opposition is PASOK, led by Papandreou.
The KKE, the Greek Communist Party, is a sizeable party with substantial
support in the industrial working
class and representation in parliament. It was until recently a "Moscow
line" Stalinist party. While Moscow is
less appealing now, the KKE has not broken with the essentials of
Stalinism.
At the outbreak of war, the KKE played a key role in leading the forces
of EAM and ELAS, the national
liberation organisation and army, which attempted to roll back the
invasions of first Italian, the German
fascism. At war's end the forces of the KKE were still strong enough for
it to be a bidder in the game for
rulership of Greece. The Republican Army however lost to forces led by
the Greek bourgeoisie, Britain and
America in a civil war that lasted for four years.
Metaxas was the fascist dictator of Greece, who came to power in 1936
and ironically had to oppose the Italian
fascists at the start of the Second World War. The Italian invasion of
Greece was not successful, but the
German occupation held and meant great suffering for the Greek people.
PRESS RELEASE
GREEK SOCIALISTS FACE JAIL FOR SUPPORTING
MACEDONIA
Five Greek socialists: Panos Garganas, Kostas Pittas, Angelos
Kalodoukas, Tasia Kyrkou, Litsa Yidakou, face
jail over a booklet which argues against the present Greek Conservative
government's line on Macedonia. All
five are members of OSE (Organisation Socialist Revolution).
The charges have been made on the basis of 1938 law to limit press
freedoms enacted under the fascist Metaxas
dictatorship. The relevant sections of the penal code are headed
"treason".
The three charges are: "exposing friendly relations of Greece with
foreign countries (Yugoslavia-Bulgaria) to
disturbance; spreading false information and rumours that might cause
fear to citizens; and inciting citizens to
rivalry and division". Each charge carries a 5 year maximum sentence.
When six members of another socialist group (OAKKE) pasted up posters
with the slogan "Recognise
Independent Slav-Macedonia", they were tried in January and received six
and a half month sentences. They
were released pending an appeal.
The OSE members face trial on 18th September this year.
Their Booklet, "Crisis in the Balkans: the Macedonia question and the
working class" argues not only that
Macedonians have their own language and culture, but that their desire
for national self-determination should
be supported. This booklet has already sold over 1500 copies and is into
its second edition.
In the booklet, OSE supports a Communist Party Leader who was harassed
early this year by right wing thugs
while touring workplaces in Salonica, because she dared to assert that
Slavic language speakers do exist in
Greek Macedonia.
The charges are an open act of censorship and an attempt to intimidate
the growing opposition to the
governments warmongering policies. By claiming that Macedonia is a non
existent nation, the Greek
government is fueling the spread of war into the south of the former
Yugoslavia.
Already 200 trade unionists in Greece have signed an appeal demanding
that charges against OSE members are
dropped. They include the Chairman and Secretary of GSEE (the Greek peak
trade union council), leaders of
local government, hospital workers, bankworkers, railworkers,
metalworkers... even the Munitions factory
trade union leadership. Journalists and academics have also shown
support. Greek Communist Party President
Florakis has sent a message of support.
Witnesses for the prosecution include: Nicolas Martis, a former Minister
of Northern Greece in the 1960s -
member of the right wing of the Conservative party New Democracy;
Panaginotis Psomiadis, a New Democracy
MP from Salonica; a priest; a judge and a notorious Constantine Plevris.
Plevris is a leader of the 4th of August Party. The 4th of August 1936
was the date the fascists came to power
in Greece. He claims that Hitler was inspired by Plato and in his book
"Talking about Jews" he denies the Nazi
holocaust.
An international campaign has also begun. Messages of support have
arrived from Australia, Belgium,
Denmark, Germany, the United States, Ireland, Canada, Norway, South
Africa, Holland, Poland and Turkey. In
Britain, a Solidarity Committee has been formed, headed by Labor
parliamentarian Tony Benn.
This suppression of dissent must be fought vigorously. It is not just an
attack on socialists in Greece, it is an
attack on anti-war activists everywhere. It has already helped to open
the road for Greek fascists to
re-activate.
We appeal to you for help. You may send statements of support and
donations to the campaign against these
charges through the International Socialists Organisation in Australia
or the OSE in Greece. Here are the
relevant addresses:
OSE Solidarity campaign c/o ISO Australia, GPO Box 1473N, Melbourne
3001.
Organosi Sosialistiki Epanastasi, T Th 8161, 100 10 Omonia, Athens
Statements of Support can be sent via email:
phs...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Prologue
Kostas Pittas
The worsening of the Balkan crisis has brought the Macedonian question
to centre stage once again. The
arguments have spread, so much so that the opposition and even trade
unions have had to take a position:
chauvinist or non-chauvinist, in the face of the outbreak of war in
Yugoslavia.
A lot of questions have been raised.
What is the origin of the crisis in the Balkans? What is hidden behind
these ethnic clashes and who is
responsible for the tragedy of war which has made the whole region the
powderkeg of Europe once again?
What is the role of the Greek ruling class? Is it defending itself ...
or on the offensive? Can the EEC or the
United Nations provide a solution? How about a united Yugoslavia under
Milosevic? What is the role of the
ethnic minorities involved ... and especially of the Macedonian minority
in Greece? Above all, how can anyone
effectively counter the chauvinist attacks of New Democracy? Can it be
done through "national accord" or
through building struggle in the workplaces, the colleges and campuses?
Macedonia, as the soft underbelly of the Balkans, has seen every local
ruling class demand it for themselves,
from last century to the present day. It has become the centre of an
unprecedented campaign by the New
Democracy government, which has opened the way for fascist reptiles to
clamber out of the sewers which the
working class movement had buried them in for so long.
For every worker, for every student who wants to fight back against the
attacks of New Democracy, clarifying
the issues in regard to chauvinism is the precondition for victory.
Unfortunately the ideas being cultivated by the parliamentary opposition
provide anything but a convincing
answer to these attacks.
This pamphlet aims to help in the clarification of all the issues that
militants have to contend with, in order to
resist the warmongering and find a way forward.
This way forward will not be found via diplomatic intervention by the
European Economic Community, nor
through a "peacekeeping role" for the United Nations, nor through the
"solution" of a Greater Serbia.
None of these ideas can be the basis for working class struggle, for
building an anti-chauvinist front ... for
peace in the Balkans. They all assume that a 'solution' can be imposed
from above, by imperialism, by the EEC,
by the UN, by Milosevic.
They reflect one thing: the collapse of the regimes in Eastern Europe
and the USSR has led to such a crisis in
the reformist left that it does not dare to believe that the only force
that can really provide a lasting and
peaceful solution to the Balkan crisis is the working class.
The traditions of Stalinism and Social Democracy are not the only ones
that exist in the workers' movement.
The struggles of workers and youth right from the beginning of the
century all the way to the anti-war
demonstrations against imperialist intervention in the Persian Gulf,
have kept alive another tradition; the only
one able to provide an answer that benefits workers and not
imperialists. It is the answer of Marx, Lenin,
Luxemburg, Trotsky and Pouliopoulos (1). It is the answer of national
liberation from within socialist
revolution.
This tradition, distorted and smothered by Stalinism and Social
Democracy, reviled by bourgeois propaganda,
needs to be revived today, not just in order to resist chauvinist
attacks but also to provide a perspective that
does not allow the barbed wire of national boundaries to separate
workers from each other. This tradition
restores the vision of a new and different society, without exploitation
and national oppression.
It is the tradition of supporting the right of every oppressed
nationality to self determination, of
internationalism, or workers' revolution and socialism from below, that
this pamphlet aims to bring to light and
to serve as a guide to action.
To this end, we are obliged to start by disproving the thousands of lies
and chauvinist myths that shroud the
facts. We have to bring to the surface all the elements that Greek
governments have consciously covered with
tonnes of mud in the service of Greek capitalism.
It is necessary to present the reality about the Macedonians and the
Macedonian minority within Greece. It is
necessary to escape from the hypocritical worship of ancient times so
central to government propaganda and
to show that the Macedonian nation not only existed and still exists,
but also that the minority in Western
Greek Macedonia has been hammered for decades, repressed by the Greek
state.
The struggles of the Macedonian minority often found support and a
perspective for a way forward within
workers' struggles because both were the targets of Greek bosses.
Finally, Greek capitalists are not, and were not, defending themselves
against aggressive national dangers. They
are indeed the aggressors with aim of greater economic and geographical
penetration of the Balkans within the
framework of international capitalist competition. The domestic policy
of New Democracy is nothing more
than the continuation of the division of land that followed on from the
Balkans Wars and imperialist
campaigns in the Middle East.
Only having uncovered this reality can we turn to the genuine
revolutionary tradition, the tradition of Lenin,
on the national question to provide a perspective for anti-chauvinist
struggle.
At the heart of Lenin's tactics on the national question was the
recognition and support by revolutionary
socialists of the right of oppressed nations to self determination, even
to the extent of separation, if they
demanded it. What Lenin was after, by applying this tactic, was not the
creation of lots of little states, which
could only reproduce the chaos of national capitalist competition. He
aimed to find the way to unite the
struggles of workers in the oppressor nation with those in the oppressed
nation - both against the common
enemy, capitalism. The fact that a lasting and true solution to workers'
problems only lay in workers'
revolution and socialism must not be allowed to hide the necessity for
revolutionaries to convert national
questions into a launching pad for class struggle.
For the Bolsheviks, one of the most important preconditions for the
victory of the revolution was to stop
nationalities oppressed by Tsarism seeing Russian workers as the
oppressor. On the other hand, Russian
workers had to open their own battle lines with their own ruling class
by demanding an end to the oppression
of other nationalities by Tsarism.
This tactic of supporting the right to national self determination, far
from dividing the workers' movement,
united workers in the oppressor and the oppressed country. It smashed
the illusions of Russian workers that
their problems could be solved by way of Russian imperialist expansion
and dissolved the illusion among
oppressed peoples that their liberation would come through alliance with
local nationalist leaders. After the
Russian revolution, Lenin wrote:
"We are told that Russia will be split up into pieces, that it will
divide into independent republics.
But we have no reason to fear this. What is important for us is not
where the borders will end up,
but maintaining the unity of workers of all countries through joint
struggle against the
bourgeoisie".
This tactic did not just remain on the drawing board. Within the
revolutionary Soviet Union the "experiment"
of national self determination within socialist revolution was put into
practice. Russian, Ukrainian, Azeri
workers came together to create their own history; the history of a
society without exploitation and ethnic,
racial or other kinds of oppression.
This society was overturned by Stalinist counter-revolution, which
created a totalitarian state capitalist system.
The reformist Communist Parties of the West in their turn also twisted
revolutionary history out of shape.
Today, following the collapse of Stalinism, the reply to the horror of
the capitalist market and the tragedy of
war, can only be through the rediscovery of the tradition of
revolutionary marxism, key elements of which are
support of the right of nations to self determination, support of the
rights of minorities, confronting the
chauvinism and warmongering of one's own ruling class, with the aim of
uniting workers across the Balkans
and building towards socialist revolution.
This revolutionary politics is what this pamphlet seeks to make real.
February 1992
1. Pantelis Pouliopoulos, at one time General Secretary of the Greek
Communist Party and leader of Trotsky's
Left Opposition in Greece.
Macedonia: new chauvinist mobilization
Panos Garganas
For years now Greeks have become accustomed to government propaganda
which uses the term 'pseudo-state'
when referring to Turkish Cypriots in Northern Cyprus. Recently,
following the reactions of the Australian
government, the Greek government repertoire has included the forgotten
theme of Greek chauvinists: the
'pseudo-state' of the Macedonians.
While Cypriot President Vasiliou longs to absorb the 'pseudo-state' of
Turkish Cyprus within a united Cypriot
Republic, Greek diplomacy is discovering another glorious battlefield -
the isolation of the 'pseudo-state'
Macedonia.
What crime by Macedonians in Australia has produced the holy outrage of
both government and opposition in
Athens?
50,000 migrants from Macedonia who live in Australia: "declare their
unity and autonomy. They have their own
radio program, they have won recognition of their language as the
Macedonian language and they have won
some government grants. Among their privileges has been to get equal
time with Greeks on television". (Free
Press, Athens 22/3/88)
Incredible! Equal time with Greeks. The Greek state will not tolerate
such insults. It has sent a representative
to Melbourne, founded an Institute of Macedonian studies, organised a
'scientific' conference in Melbourne,
systematized the Greek lobby and now intends to send an archaeological
exhibition aiming to 'prove' the
Hellenism of Macedonia in order to complete the assault on those agents
of Skopje (capital of the Yugoslavian
republic of Macedonia) who 'dare to call themselves Macedonians'.
Needless to say this has created a reaction. Macedonian migrants from
Yugoslavia have organised
demonstrations outside Greece's 'scientific conference'. The Australian
government has had to take a second
look at its policy in regard to what is or is not Macedonian.
These events have ignited a patriotic upsurge in Athens. The name of the
Ministry of Northern Greece was
changed. There has even been a long series on television about the
Greekness of Macedonia from ancient times
to the present day.
So the 'Macedonian question', which everyone has treated as a ghost from
the past, is now well and truly on
the political agenda in Greece. It has simmered away in recent years
without taking on major proportions.
Since 1974 the conservative New Democracy government and current PASOK
government have gone on at
length about the 'danger from the East' and stepped up a policy of
opening up to the Balkans. They have
thrown into question the Macedonian Federation (founded with its capital
Skopje, within the boundaries of
Tito's Yugolsavia, created after the victory of the partizans).
The political changes following the fall of the junta in Greece opened
the doors for the return of political
refugees. Slowly all those who cared to return to Greece have done so,
except for those fighters in the
Republican Army who took part in the second guerilla war as Macedonians.
Fifty years after the famous
decision of the Third International and the Greek Communist Party in
regard to Macedonia (1924) and almost
thirty years after the Greek civil war, the Greek state continues to be
anxious enough to deny
'Slav-Macedonians' the possibility of national reconciliation.
Another battleground for this stubborn Greek diplomacy is its denial of
the existence of Macedonians and
their language where it concerns university degrees. Greek students who
have studied in Skopje have been
forced to drop out because their degree is not recognised by Greek
authorities. The defence department will
not give exemptions from military service and banks will not change
their money. The justification? Their
studies are in the Macedonian language - a language which does not
exist!
This provocative embargo against Skopje has led to measures being taken
which if they were taken by any
other country against Greece would lead to one hell of a storm. For
example, a few years ago the Greek
courts refused to convict a Greek driver who, while passing through
Skopje, had fatally injured one of the
locals. The official decision of the court was that the documents of the
traffic police in Skopje were
inadmissible because they had been written in the Macedonian language!
One way or another the Greek state continues to demand that Yugoslavia
wipe one of its federal republics
from its map, to incorporate it into Serbia and to call the Macedonians
Southern Serbs or the like.
When the Turkish state denies the existence of the Kurds and describes
them as mountain-dwelling Turks, its
racist policy is presented as proof of how right it is for Greece to
hold the line against Turkish expansionism.
But when the Yugoslav state refuses to impose the fate of the Kurds on
its own Macedonians, this is regarded
by Greece as provocation.
Hypocrisy, after all, knows no bounds!
Fascination with ancient history
What are the 'scientific arguments' of the apologists for this policy?
There are theories about the Greekness of
Macedonia from ancient times, through the Byzantine era up to the
present day. There are theories about the
'fabricated' or 'non-existent' national consciousness of the Macedonians
as a separate nation.
The efforts of the bourgeoisie to extend nations backward in time in
order to show their historical continuity
from the earliest of ancient times are laughable. The formation of
nations and the development of national
consciousness are social processes tied to the development of the
bourgeoisie and of the capitalist mode of
production. To transfer these concepts into previous historical periods
of precapitalist modes of production is
just myth-making, furthering the interests of the current bourgeoisie.
What about the so-called 'fabrication' of national identity among the
Macedonians? Martis, the predecessor of
conservative Greek president Karamanlis, both before and after the
junta, never missed an opportunity to
declare the Macedonian question was directed by the hand of communism.
As he would have it: "Today's
problem had its beginnings in 1921 in Moscow when the Comintern along
with all the Balkan parties, at the
behest of the Bulgarians, established the autonomy of Macedonia and
Thrace. In 1944 Tito, all-powerful in his
communist stronghold, seized the opportunity and renamed Southern Serbia
as Macedonia. So from 1944
onwards the Macedonian nation began. Until that time we never come
across the name Macedonia among the
Slavs". (Free Press, Athens 22/4/88)
An outrageous fairytale!
The national liberation movement of the Macedonians made its first
appearance in the then Ottoman territory
of Macedonia in 1893 with the formation of the VMRO (Internal Macedonian
Revolutionary Organisation),
which demanded the liberation of Macedonia and its inclusion in a Balkan
federation. The VMRO won mass
support among the peasants because its fighters were terrorizing Turkish
chiftliki (large scale farmers), forcing
them to withdraw to the cities where they contented themselves with
receiving some rent or sold some of their
holdings to peasants.
The response was such that on 20 July 1903, Macedonians organised the
insurrection of Ilinden. A Macedonian
republic was established but it was short-lived, drowned in blood by the
Sultan using a large concentration of
the Ottoman army based in Salonika. From among the discontented members
of this gathering of military
might would later come the revolution led by the Young Turks, who set in
motion the transition from Ottoman
empire to Turkish republic.
Macedonia and the Balkan Wars
The fighters of the VMRO, defeated after the crushing of the uprising,
based their hopes on the elections being
held for the first time by the Young Turks. One of their leaders,
Vlakhov, was elected to parliament and
according to the testimony of Abraham Benaroya, became a member of the
Salonika Federation.
The development of ties between Macedonian revolutionaries and the
socialist (and later communist)
movement was not accidental. What was missing from the Macedonian
movement was not national
consciousness so much as strength in its middle class to fight off its
competitors who were already on the
attack - Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian expansionism expressed themselves
through the Balkan Wars.
The demand for a free Macedonia within a Balkan Federation could only
find favour in the newly emerging
socialist movement. In 1910, the first Balkan Conference was held. The
Social Democratic parties of the Serbia,
Rumania and Bulgaria took part. There were also speakers from Macedonia.
Greek socialists sent
congratulatory telegrams - which Trotsky noted in his correspondence.
The meeting condemned military
preparations, warned that the 'Balkan question' could not be solved by
leaving it in the hands of those who
dreamed of a Greater Greece, Greater Bulgaria or Greater Serbia. The
meeting set out its proposal for a
Balkan Federal Republic.
The hopes of not only the socialists but also the Macedonian
revolutionaries were crushed by the whirlwind of
the Balkan Wars prior to the First World War. Macedonia was shared
around between Serbia, Greece and
Bulgaria.
So how Greek was the Macedonian area, given that it was won by the Greek
army? The Ottoman census of
1906 for the whole of Macedonia claims:
1,150,000 Moslems
623,000 Orthodox Greeks
627,000 Orthodox Bulgarians
Even if we count all the Greek Orthodox (that is, those who adhered to
the patriarchate in Constantinople) as
Greeks, they still form a minority. The census of 1912 for Macedonia and
the Aegean claims 43% Greeks (17%
in Western Thrace).
Only after the war between Greece and Turkey - the 'Asia Minor disaster'
in the early 1920s and the exchange
of their respective populations, did the proportion of Greeks rise to
89% in Aegean Macedonia, and to 62% in
Western Thrace.
Slavko Mangovski
National or class strategy ?
Before the noise dies down from the meeting of Mitsotakis and Yilaz in
Paris, the diplomacy of New
Democracy has put forward the next 'peaceful' initiative: Mitsotakis,
Milosevic, Popov and Roman sit down
together in Athens to bring stability to the Balkans.
What hypocrisy! All the vultures of the Balkans gather around the
butcher of Yugoslavia, the one who has
brought slaughter between Serbs and Croats. They look to see what they
can pick from the bones of
Yugoslavia, and pose as innocent doves.
Even so, while the greedy purposes of this top-level diplomacy can only
with difficulty be hidden behind
fancy words about peace, government propaganda insists that Mitsotakis
is looking after the "common national
interest" of us all.
In the Aegean, New Democracy is looking after "our petrol". In Macedonia
it takes care of "our history"!!! In
Thrace it supports "our religion" and in Cyprus, "our rights". This "we"
and "our" is especially provocative
coming from such openly capitalist class-oriented government.
What sort of common interest exists between Latsis or Vardinoyiannis,
who is waiting for the green light for
drilling in the Aegean... and the thousands of demonstrators last winter
who shouted that they would not fight
for oil in the Persian Gulf?
What common interest is there between the "great benefactor of the
patriarchate" Angelopoulos, who spends
millions on the baptism of his grandson... and the worker of Xanthi who
must slip into unemployment because
Mitsotakis has closed his or her factory?
How do they dare to say "us", those in Cyprus who leave the president of
the Sampson coup free, those who
want an amnesty for junta figures, even those in Patra who cuddle up to
the murderers of Temponera?
In the face of such grotesque hypocrisy, an opposition which speaks in
the name of workers ought to have no
difficulty unmasking it. But PASOK, and behind it SYN and the KKE prefer
to critcise Mitsotakis from the
right; exactly the same criticism which New Democracy made of Papandreou
when he met Turkish president
Ozal at Davos. The mistake of the government, they say, is that its
diplomacy is ill-prepared, amateurish,
wrong-footed because it has no national strategy.
Nationalism is a dead end
What does this kind of criticism mean concretely? It means that the
opposition accepts the interests and
demands of Greek capitalists as being the common interests of workers
too. It accepts class collaboration and
builds bridges to the right while at the same time asking the working
class to make sacrifices that require an
even harder war effort.
So that, at the moment when Mitsotakis is concentrating army forces in
Macedonia, the moment when soldiers
and their families are upset because they are being moved to another hot
spot, from PASOK we hear the voice
of the MP Vounatsos who condemns it all because it "weakens the defence
of the Greek islands". Instead of
condemning the risk of embroiling Greece in the war that is raging in
Yugoslavia, PASOK wants a bigger army
to guard two fronts, North and East!
The criticism of Mitsotakis that he does not strike a hard enough
bargain with Ankara or Skopje is one that
appeals to tin-Hitlers and despots from Kantiotis in Florina, to
Damaskinos in Komotini and to Hrysostomos in
Cyprus.
Just how far this leads to reconciliation with New Democracy can be seen
tangibly in a letter sent by 18 cadres
of PASOK (Sylvia Akrita, Haralampidis, Vounatsos and so on) calling for
a special discussion of the central
committee. After lots of anti-Turk fist shaking, the letter ends in a
call to the cadres of New Democracy in
Thrace and the islands to a common "front for national defence".
Similarly we see Papathemelis working
spiffingly with the veteran of anti-Skopje hysteria from the time of
ERE, Nicolas Martis. (1)
Struggle against the right-wing and nationalism are totally
incompatible. No matter how Papandreou may shout
at Mitsotakis, his national policy is a bridge for working together with
New Democracy. This is clear from the
statements of Damanakis who makes the same criticisms of PASOK about the
lack of a national strategy and
offers as a solution, a joint conference of all parties to work through
the positions and the handling of the
foreign ministry. Rizospastis (2) calls for the same thing:
"What is really needed is the development of a strategy which will
be followed undeviatingly,
regardless of who is in power" (Balkans, at the crossroads of
developments, 8 September)
The party that condemns the two party system as a game which perpetuates
the right no matter who is in
government, has arrived, by following the path of "national strategy" at
accepting precisely the same fraud.
In the current situation of crisis, instability and sharpening of
antagonisms, holding the working class to a
common national strategy with the capitalists points it directly to
catastrophe. The living example is right next
door, Yugoslavia. From the moment that the workers of Belgrade, Zagreb
and Ljubljana put aside their own
struggles, joint strikes and demonstrations against the austerity of the
International Monetary Fund, carried out
by Markovic, Milosevic and Tudjman, when they entered the road of
Serbian and Croatian nationalism, each
behind his or her "own" national leader, the only thing that was
guaranteed was the horror of war.
Workers' Internationalism
Milosevic's new chum, Mitsotakis is taking us in this direction with his
initiatives. Milosevic's old chum,
Papandreou is pressing for us to run even faster. The working class has
every interest in stopping this
downward slide. But how?
What we need is a class strategy, a strategy of workers'
internationalism, a policy which begins with the idea
that the workers of all countries are brother and sisters, they have
nothing to be divided about and because of
this they are the only force that can build friendship and trust between
peoples,a just and lasting peace. The
working class is the force that can root out the antagonisms,
expropriate the capitalists and put to an end their
endless disputes over the division and redivision of the means of
production. Only through workers' revolution
can we be finally freed from the threat of war.
That is why our criterion on international questions is the unity of the
working class. This means:
(a) No illusions about peace conferences organised by big powers -
whether it be over the Middle East,
Yugoslavia or Cyprus. The USA, CIS, EEC with or without the
camouflage of the United Nations, are
not interested in "resolving disputes". They merely put forward
their own imperialist interests, passing
rapidly from "peaceful intervention" to military action, as George
Bush did in the Persian Gulf.
(b) The right to self determination for all peoples of the region.
Declarations about the "inviolability of
borders" are reactionary. How can the Palestinians or the Kurds
acquire a homeland today without
changing borders? We do not however support this right selectively
and hypocritically. The same right
applies to the Slovenes and the Croats and the Albanians of Kosovo,
and the Macedonians who voted by
a landslide majority at the recent referendum in Skopje, and the
Turkish Cypriots. The working class has
nothing to gain from a 'solution' to the Cyprus problem which will
force the Turkish Cypriots to belong
to the same state as the Greek Cypriots, if they do not want this
themselves.
(c) No to racism and the oppression of minorities. Mitsotakis
cannot brag that he is the 'protector' of the
Greeks of Albania and at the same time condemn Ozal when he says he
is the protector of the Turks in
Thrace. The way to avoid playing these games over the backs of the
minorities is not by pressuring them
to become Greek (by denying the Macedonians their language, or even
through pogroms in Xanthi and
Komotini), but by struggle to defend their rights.
(d) Struggle against the government of austerity and warmongering.
Unemployment, privitisation, cuts
are tied to military spending and to the high costs of
participating in imperialist campaigns. We demand
cuts to frigates and warplanes and not to wages, hospitals,
transportation and schools. Every strike, every
workers' struggle in this direction not only protects our bread and
jobs, it also sends a message to all the
workers in the countries around us. If workers' struggles toss out
Mitsotakis, this will be the best help
for the working class of Turkey which is just beginning to emerge
from its strait-jacket. It will give a
new incentive to the workers of Yugoslavia to escape from the
nightmare of civil war.
We must put all our strength into this perspective.
(This article was published in 'Worker Solidarity', number 59, September
1991)
1.Nicolas Martis is a co-accuser of the 5 comrades who have been
charged over this pamphlet. See the
Press Release section.
2.Rizospastis is the newspaper of the Greek Communist Party (KKE)
No to Chauvinism
The orchestrated attack against Aleka Papariga (spokesperson of the KKE)
because she spoke of Slav speakers
in Macedonia, is an obscene outburst of chauvinist hysteria.
With Varvitsiotis and Brakos leading the charge in parliament, a whole
horde of New Democracy and far-right
hooligans swung into action with lawsuits and fascist blockades to stop
her tour of Salonika. With the help of
press and television this obscenity was depicted as "an outcry against
the unpatriotic sellout views of the KKE",
trying to develop a lynch mob mentality to terrify and gag every voice
which might be raise against the
warmongering plans of chauvinists.
New Democracy = chauvinism + warmongering
Just how contrived this whole effort was can best be seen from the way
it quietened down again, when
Mitsotakis appeared in the role of the leader who is supposedly above it
all, calling for cool-headedness and
admitting: "all of us talk of Slav speakers"'
This is the very height of hypocrisy!
The New Democracy government wishes to appear as the magnanimous accuser
who will forgive Papariga for
her 'slip of the tongue', even though it should itself be in the dock,
condemned for its criminal policy at the
expense of the Macedonians and the working class.
At a time when the United Nations is picking up new members every day,
when governments around the planet
are obliged to recognise the right of nations to self determination,
from the Baltic States to Slovenia and
Croatia, from the Ukraine to the heart of Asia, the New Democracy
government persists with a policy that
denies the existence of an entire people and tries to erase that people
from the map.
The policy which declares: "there is no Macedonian nation", "there is no
Macedonian language", "there is no
Macedonian state" is similar to that of Turkish generals in regard to
the Kurds. In exactly the same way that
Turkish chauvinism denies the existence of the Kurds and calls them
"mountain dwelling Turks", reaching as
far as slaughtering and bombing Kurdish areas of Iraq, Greek chauvinism
is headed in the same direction when
it denies the existence of the Macedonians. We do not need to wait for
the moment when the Greek air force
bombs Skopje before we begin to resist this kind of politics.
But they do exist !
The republic of Macedonia is not a contrivance of Tito, as chauvinist
propaganda would have it.
The Macedonians have decades of struggle behind them: against the
Ottoman dictatorship (the uprising at
Ilinden against the Sultan's army), then in turn against the victors of
the Balkan Wars who divided Macedonia
up. All of these victors denied the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity
along with other ethnic groups in the
area. The movement of Macedonians against the Sultan did not demand an
ethnically pure independent
Macedonia. It demanded a place for the Macedonians in a Balkan
Federation freed from the yoke of the
Ottomans, alongside Greeks, Serbs and Jews. The Federation of Salonika,
the biggest socialist organisation of
the Greek proletariat before the formation of SEKE (Socialist Workers'
Party of Greece) and the KKRE (1),
supported the Macedonians' movement. In 1908, the Macedonian socialist
Vlakhov was elected to parliament.
He was later to become the first president of the Republic of Macedonia
with its capital at Skopje within the
Yugoslav federation.
Between the wars reactionary governments of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria
asserted that the Macedonians were
southern Serbs on the one hand and Bulgarians on the other. Greek
governments agreed with either
description, according to the needs of diplomacy at any given moment.
Only for a brief time in 1925 did Greek
diplomacy accept that there was a separate Macedonian language and the
Ministry of Education printed a
primary school reader so that the children of Macedonians in Greek
Macedonian villages could learn to read.
This was an enlightened moment, the exception to the rule of brutal
prohibition of the Macedonian language
which reached criminal proportions in the era of Metaxas.
But the Macedonians are not Serbs or Bulgarians and they proved this
stunningly during the period of the
resistance to fascist occupation in the Second World War. The guerillas
in Skopje fought the Bulgarian fascists
regardless of the fact that they used propaganda about the "national
rights" of Macedonians in a Greater
Bulgaria. Macedonian guerillas only turned towards Tito when he
renounced the theory of "southern Serbs"
and promised to create a mini-state within the Yugoslav federation
officially equal with the other republics.
From the Civil War to the new anti-Macedonian campaign
In Greece the guerilla war was defeated and the army of Papagos and
Truman massacred thousands of
Macedonian fighters along with fighters of the Republican army. Whatever
the State Department may say
today about the "human rights of minorities", American imperialism at
that time applied the Truman doctrine
with the help of the Greek government over the bodies of the Greek
workers' movement and the Macedonian
minority. By force of arms, bourgeois governments imposed silence on the
question and imposed the notion of
their non-existence. When Tito turned towards the West, this led to 35
years (with a few exceptions) of silence,
while the governments in Athens and Belgrade agreed to ignore the
existence of a Republic of Macedonia in
their dealings with each other.
But precisely because the Macedonians are not an "artificial contrivance
of Tito", when the Titoist status quo
went into crisis in Yugoslavia, one of the ethnic groups that entered
the stage again was the Macedonians. As
in Belgrade, Zagreb and Ljubljana, so also in Skopje, former figures of
the status quo which was falling apart
discovered that the only way to regain popularity was by wearing the
national colours of Serbia, Croatia,
Slovenia and Macedonia. Macedonian national consciousness turned out to
be as existent as any other in
Yugoslavia.
This fact has provoked hysteria in the chauvinist circles of Greece.
The New Democracy government tried and continues to try through constant
manoeuvres and pressures to
maintain the preposterous dogma of a "non-existent" Macedonian nation.
It tries to convince the EEC and the
United States to give the green light to the elimination of the word
Macedonia, and to have it absorbed into a
smaller Yugoslavia or the "Greater Serbia" of Milosevic. It will
tolerate the republic on condition of a change
of name, but this proposal means the Greek government has the right of
veto over the government in Skopje
and the republic will really have the status of a protectorate. Recently
there have even been cries for the
Greek army to take part in carving up Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria
and Greece.
No to unanimity with New Democracy
In order to bolster these paranoid plans, New Democracy has raised the
battle readiness of the army. It has
spent millions to dispatch units to the Yugoslav border, it has added
further burdens of military service on the
backs of young people and fans the flames of patriotic fervour so as to
politically isolate any resistance. Even
fascist groups of "outraged citizens" have been recruited to this
campaign. This was easily seen when they
appeared at the court for the trial of six members of OAKKE accused of
putting up provocative posters (2). It
was also shown by what happened to Aleka Papariga in Salonika.
No worker, no young person should have any doubt about what the
patriotic incendiarism of New Democracy
really means.
And yet the leadership of PASOK also intended to play with fire. It has
portrayed the New Democracy policy
as "wimpy" and offers as its key representative Papathemelis, who
surpasses even New Democracy for hysteria
on the issue. PASOK which once offered itself as the party of peace in
the Balkans, as the party which put an
end to the craziness of the "belligerent situation" with Albania and had
to face fascist shouts of "Papoulia,
traitor, Albanian!"... now allows its cadres in Salonica to add their
voices to those of the New Democrats, and
the fascists, against Papariga because she dared to speak of Slav
speakers in the villages of Macedonia.
Unionists within PASKE and PASP (3) must openly renounce cooperation
with New Democracy. Nationalism is
a bridge for cozying up to the right, it is a weapon which paralyses the
workers' movement and will allow the
government to escape the isolation it feels from a people outraged by
its austerity policies.
These policies and warmongering chauvinism are just two sides of the
same coin. They are the result of the
efforts of the government to serve the interests of capitalists within
and beyond their borders. Anyone who
wants to defend workers' interests against the austerity policy must
also join the struggle against nationalism.
The working class answer is internationalism
In this regard, the declarations of Papariga are a positive step because
they begin to open up such a battlefront.
But they remain in the middle of the road. In her opening remarks, the
Secretary of the KKE said:
"If we wish to raise a barrier to war and nationalism, we must
choose another road than seeking
new grandeur or worrying about ancient ancestors. We must choose
the road of attracting people
to us, the road of friendship and joint action and reaction to
every form of expansionism. Ant
Greek citizen, when there is any insult or put down at the expense
of the Muslim minority, of the
Slav speakers who live in certain parts of Northern Greece, or of
foreign workers or political
refugees... must turn her/his back on national egoism and
chauvinism, and react collectively".
Under the pressure of the chauvinist attack, the leadership of the KKE
accepted the intervention of Mitsotakis
claiming that Papariga had been misquoted. The emphasis was placed
elsewhere - that the KKE does not
recognise ethnic minorities, that in Thrace there is a religious
minority and in Macedonia there are some
"citizens who have the same linguistic peculiarity", that finally "the
problem is that we have to deal with
Skopje, which has a big protector. It has others, but chiefly the United
States". So declarations that set out to
condemn chauvinism and support Slav speakers end up back in the confines
of unanimity against Skopje.
Why the retreat? Why is the KKE unable to hold the antichauvinist line?
There are two main weaknesses in
the view of the KKE.
The first weakness springs from the fact that the KKE continues to see
the solution in terms of a united
Yugoslavia. Illusions about the supposedly socialist character of its
status quo, now collapsing, lead the KKE
to positions that rehash the past, not just in Yugoslavia but also
elsewhere. But especially in Yugoslavia, this
position means supporting the efforts of Milosevic to keep other
republics under the control of Belgrade -
precisely what Mitsotakis and Samaras want, at least in regard to
Macedonia.
The second and more basic weakness however is that: "genuine patriotism
is incompatible with nationalism,
chauvinism and dreams of greatness" ('Positions of the KKE on the
Balkans', page 30.1).
This illusion is even worse. Patriotism is not only incompatible, it is
the breeding ground of chauvinism. A
party which accepts that there are shared national interests between
workers and capitalists and indeed that
workers must behave patriotically by raising those "common" interests
above their own class interests, leaves
the working class undefended.
Only an internationalist party, which without any limitation puts
forward the interests of the world working
class, above the borders of diplomatic machinations, only this kind of
party can counter the poison of
chauvinism.
Nowadays the need for just such an internationalist workers' party is
becoming painfully apparent to every
militant who tries to fight the vile chauvinist and anticommunist
attacks of New Democracy.
(The above article was published in 'Worker Solidarity', number 68,
February 1992.)
1.SEKE (Socialist Workers' Party of Greece) was founded in 1918. At
its third extraordinary conference in
1924, it changed its name to KKE (Communist Party of Greece).
2.OAKKE members had put posters calling for support for
Slav-Macedonians.
3.PASKE and PASP are trade union federations within the orbit of
PASOK.
Slavko Mangovski
> The Macedonian question and the unhistorical
>
> Kathimerini Kostas Pittas
>
> How non-existent is the minority in Macedonia after all? The Greek
> newspaper 'Kathimerini' (1) set out to
> 'solve' this problem recently. On 19 January it published an "historical
> overview of the Macedonian question" as
> a lift-out which professes to "shed light on the roots of the problem".
>
> Kathimerini - Souflias: campaign of mystification
>
> One week later the same newspaper advertised that "the lift-out will be
> distributed to all the schools of Greece
> in conjunction with the Ministry of Education". Mr Souflias, so as not
> to waste a moment, after praising the
> "gift" of Kathimerini hastened to declare that "the Ministry of
> Education will publish a special document to
> organise a campaign of enlightenment on the history of Macedonia".
>
> At the very moment when Varvitsiotis is in discussion whether to take 18
> year olds as conscripts, Souflias
> rushes to pave the way by strengthening the chauvinist propaganda in
> schools.
>
> In reality the "gift" from Kathimerini is nothing other than the
> repition, one more time, of the government's
> chauvinist propaganda, cobbled together from the analyses of
> 'specialists' on questions of the left (Leondaritis)
> and on ancient matters from the foreign ministry.
>
> Unfortunately OLME (2), instead of countering this propaganda in the
> schools, has become an accomplice in
> the creation of the chauvinist climate by organising not protests... but
> a discussion day in Florina with
> Papathemelis, arch-chauvinist, as speaker.
>
> Kathimerini's presentation does not fail to mention once again the
> Greekness of Alexander the Great, as if one
> could judge ethnic consciousness today on the basis of whether the
> ancient Macedonians were related to the
> Dorians 2,200 years before Christ! However even if we accept that
> Macedonia was inhabited by Slavic peoples,
> it raises as an argument the fact that Basil the Second was called
> killer-of-Bulgars and not
> killer-of-Macedonians in order to prove that there is no, and has never
> been a Macedonian ethnicity. The
> second 'scientific' argument used by Kathimerini is that there is no
> Macedonian language, but rather a
> Macedonian dialect containing elements of Bulgarian, Serbian, Russian,
> Greek and other languages. (3)
>
> Averof - "philoskopje" ?
>
> One initial answer to the 'argument' is given in the official
> presentation of professor R A Reiss who was
> entrusted by the Greek government in 1914 to do an ethnographic survey
> of the country:
>
> "Those whom you would call Bulgarian speakers I would simply call
> Macedonians... My researches
> in Greek and Serbian Macedonia show that the Macedonian language is
> the result of all the
> successive conquests the country has undergone... Macedonian is not
> the language they speak in
> Sofia... I repeat that the mass of inhabitants there remain simply
> Macedonians".
>
> (Reiss, Dr R A: Rapport sur la situation des boulgarophones et des
> musulmans dans les nouvelles
> provinces grecques, 1915. It is referred to in Bulletin number 1 of
> the Greek Association for the
> Rights of Minorities, January 1992)
>
> Of course, Kathimerini asserts that after the exchange of populations
> between Greece and Turkey in 1922, the
> ethnological make up of Macedonia changed and "the Slav speaking
> population was recognised by Greece as
> Bulgarian".
>
> What our 'objective historian' is careful to hide from us is that in
> 1926 the Ministry of Education proceeded to
> publish the first primary school reader in Macedonian, with the title
> ABECEDAR. The newspaper Elevthero
> Vima (1), today's Vima, wrote at the same time that "in the villages of
> the new regions (Macedonia and Western
> Thrace) parents can seek the establishment of minority primary schools
> or separate sections in Greek primary
> schools, where the languages of the minority are taught".
>
> What is truly amazing is that objections to the publication of ABECEDAR
> were raised by Bulgaria and Serbia
> because it was not written in their cyrillic alphabet! The Greek
> government asserted that the Macedonians were
> not Bulgars or Serbs, they had their own ethnicity with its own language
> and script! In the end diplomacy won
> out and the Greek government 'retreated' in the interests of its
> alliance with the other Balkan capitalisms.
> (Dimitros Vogazlis, Ethnic and Religious Minorities in Greece and
> Bulgaria, 1954)
>
> If 1914 and 1926 seem a long way away, Kathimerini would do well to head
> for the official Hansard of the
> Greek parliament in its sittings 17 and 18 September 1959, when the
> Minister for ERE (4) (and of New
> Democracy after 1974) Averof, referred to the "Macedonian language which
> is spoken in Skopje and has its
> own grammar and syntax". (S Walden, Greece-Yugoslavia: the birth and
> development of a crisis, 1991)... Unless
> perhaps the deceased Averof was himself 'philoskopje' (a fan of Skopje)?
>
> In the census of 1951, more than 41,000 people declared themselves Slav
> speakers (in spite of the repression
> that would follow from such a declaration). One year earlier, in 1950,
> Constantinos Karamanlis (5) said in the
> course of a discussion of the expatriation of a section of the minority
> after the Civil war: "This population has
> an ambiguous consciousness. So much so that it is not known whether they
> are Bulgars, Serbs or Greeks"
> (Hansard, 30/11/50)
>
> Today one only needs to take a stroll in Florina, Edessa, Kastoria or
> Kilkis in order to be assured of the
> language, the existence and indeed of the repression which the minority
> suffers.
>
> Trikoupis: "We will make all of them Greek" !
>
> Kathimerini is not intimidated by such details. The only ones who speak
> this dialect are "certain merchants of
> Northern Greece who learn it for reasons of trade and tourism, just as
> people in Rhodes learn... Swedish". And
> it goes on: "The appropriation by a Slavic people of an ancient Greek
> name which is used in Greece as a
> geographical term (Macedonia) is scientifically baseless and politically
> unacceptable". But the 'scientificness' of
> Kathimerini appears to be very selective and exhausts itself quickly.
> Following this logic the municipalities and
> parishes of Attiki (6) ought to complain to George Bush because
> prisoners on long sentences serve their term
> in Attica state prison.
>
> Given that what is scientific is that which serves the interests of
> Greek capitalists, Leontaritis informs us that
> the "first official appearance of expansionist designs against Greece
> manifested themselves during the
> government of Harilaos Trikoupis". (7) Let us see then what Trikoupis
> had to say: "When the great war comes,
> Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian according to who wins. If it is
> taken by the Bulgarians they will
> make the population Slavs. If we take it, we will make them all Greeks".
> (Athens Publishing House, History of
> the Greek People, volume 14, page 18).
>
> Here is the cynical confession of a chauvinist who was under no
> obligation to find pretexts for his chauvinism,
> as is New Democracy today.
>
> Distortions and hypocrisy
>
> Hypocrisy surpasses all barriers however when Leontaritis tries to use
> the words of Pantelis Pouliopoulos, the
> most important Greek marxist internationalist and implacable enemy of
> Greek capitalists, to support chauvinist
> propaganda. Pouliopoulos was Secretary of the KKE when as a
> revolutionary party in the 1920s it had the
> slogan of a "United and independent Macedonia".
>
> Leondaritis uses as his argument the fact that Pouliopoulos accepted
> that the slogan was mistaken and that in
> its place there ought to be the slogan of "support for every national
> freedom for the minorities and the fullest
> self determination for them, within a Balkan Federation of people in
> which the Macedonian people could
> decide its own fate".
>
> It takes the incredible hypocrisy of a chauvinist academic seeking any
> way to support the warmongering of the
> government, to use the words of Pouliopoulos quoted above. Because of
> them this revolutionary endured
> court-martial, was imprisoned and exiled in 1925-6.
>
> If Pouliopoulos criticised the slogan of a "United and independent
> Macedonia", this criticism was in an entirely
> different direction from that which Leondaritis miserably suggests in
> order to take issue with the KKE.
> Pouliopoulos said at the 3rd regular Congress of the KKE in 1924:
>
> "Consequently the way we speak about the national question is not a
> struggle to convince the
> imperialist bourgeoisie, but a struggle to urge the masses against
> the bourgeoisie in whose interest
> it is to stoke the fires of a new war. Strike out at this
> imperialist capitalist class to throw off the
> threat of war, to gain your national independence. We will say this
> to the masses and this is
> exactly where the revolutionary character of our slogan lies".
>
> Read also Pouliopoulos' own words in sections 3 and 4 of his essay on
> the national question, included in this
> pamphlet.
>
> What connection can his words have with the campaign of mystification by
> Kathimerini and the Education
> Ministry? This is the 'history' that "Mr Leontaritis wants to teach us",
> and this history doped with the poison of
> chauvinism is what Souflias wants to distribute to schools.
>
> The lift-out ends with this: "Greek success in the West European
> Alliance naturally is reassuring. But we must
> stay alert and united on the national matters. We must not relax".
>
> We promise that we will stay alert and united, against the austerity and
> warmongering of the government of
> Greek capitalists. We will not relax. And even if the Communist Party
> today is not the Communist Party of
> Pouliopoulos which will push the struggle forward, that is all the more
> reason to build a revolutionary
> socialist party of the workers in Greece just that much quicker.
>
> (This article was published in 'Worker Solidarity', number 68, February
> 1992)
>
> 1.Kathimerini and Vima are large circulation right-wing newspapers
> 2.OLME. Federation of teachers in secondary schools
> 3.Note by the translator. The Greek language itself is full of words
> from other languages, to the extent
> that some chauvinists have panicked enough to produce a book on how
> to eliminate Turkish words. A
> fatuous exercise. Popular speech is 'littered' with words and
> expressions from Albanian, Italian, Serbian,
> and other languages
> 4.ERE. Radical Nationalist Association
> 5.Attiki is the area of Greece around and to the north of Athens
> 6.Constantinos Karamanlis, conservative to his bootstraps has been
> prime minister and president of Greece
> 7.Harilaos Trikoupis 1832-1896. Greek prime minister from 1882 to
> 1895
>
> The crisis in Yugoslavia: the ones who created it cannot solve it
>
> Angelos Kalodoukas
>
> Why did the civil war break out ?
>
> The roots of the civil war can be found in the horrific economic crisis
> that is gripping Yugoslavia.
>
> In the most recent period the economy sank by 23%. This year, during the
> first five months, it fell by 21%.
> Unemployment has taken off, workers remain unpaid for months, inflation
> is rampant.
>
> The economic crisis has its roots in the policy followed by the Titoist
> establishment. Tito tried to develop the
> economy by tying Yugoslavia to the world market, the United States and
> the EEC. What was achieved
> however in the 1970s was huge indebtedness to Western banks and a
> ferocious program of austerity to cover
> the gaps.
>
> The difference between the developed regions like Slovenia and the
> underdeveloped South grew. After the
> worldwide economic crisis of 1970, Yugoslavia became more and more
> unstable. Tito's death and later the
> revolutions in Eastern Europe brought these contradictions to the
> surface.
>
> Why are the ethnic antagonisms so strong ?
>
> National oppression in the region has a long history, tied up with
> imperialist interventions. Before the First
> World War the Austrians were the ones who occupied Slovenia and Croatia
> while at the same time stirring up
> their differences with the Serbs. The Ottoman dictatorship, even though
> it was in decline, maintained its rule
> over the greater part of the Balkans thanks to the support of England
> and France, who feared Russian
> influence in the region.
>
> After the Balkan wars and the First World War, it was France, England
> and the USA who allowed Serbia to
> rule over Yugoslavia and to oppress, in the most barbarous way, the
> ethnic minorities. Throughout the between
> war period, Yugoslavia was synonymous with ethnic oppression.
>
> In the Second World War, Germans and Italians divided up the region by
> supporting a status quo based on
> ethnic repression. The Nazis supported the fascist Ustashi in Croatia
> which slaughtered the Serbian minority.
>
> Tito and the Stalinist CP seemed to provide a way out of all this.
> Indeed, in the early post-war period, ethnic
> differences seemed to be more subdued.
>
> Isn't it better to maintain a united Yugoslavia than continue with the
> bloodshed of civil war ?
>
> The Yugoslav state is not a solution, because it is exactly the one that
> created the problem. Tito's "market
> socialism" is what created the fantastic differences in the country. A
> developed North (Slovenia), an
> underdeveloped South (cheap labour, raw materials).
>
> Tito's police state (and his former glory as a partizan) for years
> covered up the contradictions. But the
> economic crisis of 1970 gave way to the 1980s which saw the workers
> unite in resistance, with strikes and
> struggles for trade union and political freedoms.
>
> The ruling class answer was nationalism.
>
> In Serbia Milosevic became leader of the Communist Party and proceeded
> to transform the state machine of
> Yugoslavia into the vassal of Serbia. He abolished the autonomy of
> Kosovo (90% Albanians, the poorest and
> most oppressed in Yugoslavia).
>
> Milosevic recognised that Yugoslavia would not continue to be united. He
> wanted to create a Greater Serbia by
> tacking on bits of Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. The leaders of other
> republics responded by asserting their own
> nationalism. In Slovenia the CP leaders joined up with liberals to
> declare their independence. In Croatia,
> former party boss Franjo Tudjman turned to Croatian nationalism.
>
> Must we support Croatian nationalists ?
>
> Tudjman refused to condemn the slaughter of Serbs by Croatian fascists
> during the Second World War.
> Croatia retains the fascist Ustashi flag. In Croatia today, the police
> are waging a pogrom against Serbs.
>
> Tudjman's aims are the same as those of Milosevic - to turn the
> attention of workers away from economic
> problems and create a Greater Croatia.
>
> Can the EEC offer a way out ?
>
> People in the West have been shocked by the extent of the crisis in
> Yugoslavia. Italy, Austria, Greece; all have
> borders with it and each has its own demands of Yugoslavia. Bulgaria and
> Albania also have land claims on
> Yugoslavia.
>
> Even if such land claims do not express themselves through war, the West
> is afraid of the effect that the
> Yugoslav crisis may have on other national disputes (Hungary - Rumania,
> Czechs - Slovaks, within the former
> Soviet Union, between the centre and the republics).
>
> In spite of the intensity of the crisis, the West Europeans are split
> because they have conflicting interests with
> each other. Germany wants the EEC to play a more energetic role (even
> militarily). It wants Slovenia and
> Croatia to be recognised, because it believes these two mini-states
> would fall within its "sphere of influence".
> Greece and Italy intervene to prevent "German penetration". But even
> these two countries have conflicting
> interests; Italy believes that it can come out as the beneficiary if
> Slovenia becomes independent, whereas
> Greece wants to see Yugoslavia united under Milosevic.
>
> Whoever steps in, EEC, USA, CIS - the result will be against the
> Yugoslavian people. Every intervention will
> be in the interest of the power that intervenes. It will sharpen ethnic
> antagonisms. The causes for the war and
> the economic catastrophe will just continue.
>
> What should be the position of the Left ?
>
> First, struggle against any Western intervention in Yugoslavia. Such
> interventions for decades have had the
> result of fostering nationalism, oppression, war.
>
> Second, every Yugoslav republic has the right to self determination,
> including the right to split away.
>
> A united Yugoslavian state under today's conditions can only mean
> oppression of all republics by a "federal"
> army dominated by Serbia. Supporting the right to self determination
> does not mean that we support Tudjman
> in Croatia, but by denying that right the only thing we achieve is to
> strengthen the hand of nationalists like
> Milosevic and Tudjman.
>
> Supporting the right of self determination provides the possibility for
> revolutionary socialists to unmask the
> nationalist leaders, to show that they want to distract people's
> attention from the real causes of the disaster -
> economic crisis and the oppression of the working class.
>
> It provides the opportunity to recall the joint struggles of workers of
> the various ethnic groups during the
> 1987-88 period, which opened the way for a working class solution to the
> crisis in Yugoslavia.
>
> (This article was published in "Worker Solidarity", number 58, September
> 1991)
Anastassios D. Retzios, Ph.D.
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:56:20 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
wrote:
>
>ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
>From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
>
>Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
>
>
>
>What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
>pamphlet
>
>"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
>
>This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
>Greek socialist group OSE
>(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
>
>Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
>charges for having distributed this
>pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
>for them.
Slavko, you are using valuable bandwidth by posting and reposting this
tired old piece by a tiny group (does it have more than five members?
I doubt it). Instead of reposting this old material -you must be
running out of steam- why don't you inform us as to what happened to
this group in the last 5 years?
I am waiting...
Slavko Mangovski
> >From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
> >Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
> >What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
> >pamphlet
> >"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
> >This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
> >Greek socialist group OSE
> >(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
> >Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
> >charges for having distributed this
> >pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
> >for them.
> >I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
> > 1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
> >question
> > 2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
> >within Greece to it's position on
> >Macedonia
> You are refering to 1992 and we have now 1997.
Dear Panayotis,
Why do you think the events described any different now then were in
1992?
Is there any evidence that the Greek state has changed it's policies,
well
described in the paper, towards the Macedonians? I don't see any change.
Are you that far
> behind?
If I can still count that would be 5 years. Do you really think that
things have changed that much? I don't think they changed.
We in Greece had elections in October 1993.
We know that :-) We also know that those were not the first and
we certainly hope they won't be the last, although I have seen
no changes as far as the Macedonians are concerned.
The
> Slavomacedonian
There you go! You are ascribing me names that I don't use and
that certainly cannot lead to a healthy discussion. How
would you like me to call you a Slavogreek or a Turkogreek?
party took part in the elections.
Are you sure? I certainly have no recolection of any Macedonian
party being allowed in Greece. You probably refer to the
Rainbow party and although some Macedonians did partacipate
in it why di yoy think conditions have changed much from
1992 (when the paper in question was written) till 1993
when the elections were held?
Could you find out
> for me how many votes they got?
Not many. Why do you think people would vote in conditions
described in the paper and also by ALL human rights
organizations in the world.
Don't tell me that the elections were
> not free.
Free for the Greeks, not free for the Macedonians.
No more lies!
I agree!
> Your name shows you are a Slav (Slavko).
Dear, dear, you're not another proponent of the 'first-name-equals-
ethnicity' theory?! FYI Slavko means 'glory' and I'm as much
Slav as you are.
Were Alexander and Philip
> Slavs?
No, it doesn't appear they were.
Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
> to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
Probably true. Since you know so much about them then you must
also know that they populated the whole of the territory of
modern Greece.
> Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
> line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
> he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
> Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
> only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> B.C.) to participate.
This is also true but I wonder if you knew the whole story. They FIRST
REJECTED him because he wasn't Greek and AFTER, by bold fiction, he
invented the tale of his supposed ancestry from Argos in the
Peloponessus
that they admitted him.
> Please see the attachment of the passage from the translation of "The
> History of Herodotus by Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics
> Archive of MIT (the well known polytechnic institute).
> Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
I'll do that gladly. I'll also offer you several passages from
diferent authors on the subject.
Ulrich Wilken, Alexander the Great, WW Norton &Co.,
New York/London 1967, p.22-23
When Alexander I of Macedon, who, though a vassal of
Xerxes, had in the Persian War given many proofs of his
sympathy with the Greek cause, desired to take part in the
Olympic Games, to which only Hellenes had access, he was
first refused as a barbarian, and it was only when by a
bold fiction he traced back the pedigree of his house,
the Argeadae, to the Haraclid Temenus of Argos, that he
was admitted as a competitor. Since then the kings of
Macedon passed with the Greeks as Hellenes, and as
descendants of Heracles; but, as before, so afterwards,
the people were regarded as barbarians - even by Isocrates
in his ‘Philip’ - though in the meantime many kings had
done much for the introduction of Greek culture into their
country. Even in Philip’s day the Greeks saw in the
Macedonians as a non-Greek foreign people, and we must
remember this if we are to understand the history of
Philip and Alexander, and especially the resistance
and obstacles which met them from the Greeks. The point
is much more important then our modern conviction that
Greeks and Macedonians were brethren; this was equally
unknown to both, and therefore could have no political effect.
N.L.G. Hammond. "The Macedonian State" published by
Clarendon Press in 1989.
We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic
Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed
to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks.
Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing
Amyntas, who was king c.500, as ‘a Greek ruling over
Macedonians, and Thucydides described the Macedonians
and other northern tribes as ‘barbarians’ in the sense
of ‘non-Greeks’, despite the fact that were Greek-speaking.
When it came to political controversy, it was naturally
good invective to call he king barbarian too. Thus a
Greek speech-writer called the Thessalians ‘Greeks’
and Archelaos, the contemporary Macedonian king,
‘a barbarian’. Demosthenos spoke of Philip as the
‘barbarian from Pella’. Writing in 346 and eager
to win Philip’s approval, , Isocrates paid tribute
to Philip as a blue-blooded Greek and made it clear
at the same time that the Macedonians were not Greeks.
Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border
and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court,
classed the Macedonians and their institutions of
monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly.
It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians
considered themselves to be, and were treated by
the Alexander the Great as being, separate from
the Greeks. The were proud to be so.
Best regards
Slavko
Galina
Panayiotis wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:56:20 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
> wrote:
>
> >ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
> >From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
> >Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
> >What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
> >pamphlet
> >"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
> >This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
> >Greek socialist group OSE
> >(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
> >Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
> >charges for having distributed this
> >pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
> >for them.
> >I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
> > 1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
> >question
> > 2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
> >within Greece to it's position on
> >Macedonia
> Dear Slavko,
> You are refering to 1992 and we have now 1997. Are you that far
> behind? We in Greece had elections in October 1993. The
> Slavomacedonian party took part in the elections. Could you find out
> for me how many votes they got? Don't tell me that the elections were
> not free. No more lies!
> Your name shows you are a Slav (Slavko). Were Alexander and Philip
> Slavs? Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
> to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
> Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
> line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
> he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
> Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
> only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> B.C.) to participate.
> Please see the attachment of the passage from the translation of "The
> History of Herodotus by Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics
> Archive of MIT (the well known polytechnic institute).
> Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
Here ya go:
[Return to the
homepage of the
M.N.S.]
The Central
Council...
The Political
Secretariat...
The "Nova Zora"
Editors'
Commission...
The Economic
Commission...
The Main Page...
Organisation
principles of the
"Vinozhito" Party...
Political Manifesto
of the "Vinozhito"
Party...
Other information...
On 19th January 1997 the Second Conference of the
"Vinozhito" party was held in
Lerin. The Conference was attended by 76 delegates of
all local units.
It adopted the Political Manifesto and the Organisatory
Principles, in addition to
electing a Central Council comprised of 19 members.
Out of the 76 participant delegates, Pasois Traianos
and Pritskas Hristos,
disagreed with the national-political character of the
organisation, the decisions
made by the majority, and withdrew from the Conference.
The Central Council held its first session in Voden on
26th January 1997, and
elected a five-member Political Secretariat, an
Economic Commission, an Editor's
Council, etc. It has been decided to publish the
follow-up materials (conclusions )
of the Second Conference in the next edition of the
Newsletter. The letter will be
available in Macedonian and Greek.
Also the Central Council unanimously decided to outcast
the above mentioned
members on the grounds of their actions which were
countrary to the Organisations
Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.
In its Political Manifesto "Vinozhito" has aired its
wish to co-operate with all
democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the country
in - its struggle for peace and
European integration.
To this purpose - attributing great significance to
minority issues and the
developing of political democracy in the country -
"Vinozhito " will Launch initiative
to establish co-operation on basis of a joint political
platform with all democratic
forces.
The Central Council would like to express its
gratitude, on behalf of all members
and supporters of " Vinozhito " , to all Macedonians
who have aided our efforts
materially and morally - thus contributing to - the
achievement of our objective as
an organisation.
The Central Council is comprised of the following
members:
Alliopis Periklis
Anastasiadis Stavros
Vassiliadis Petros
Voskopoulous Pavlos
Georgiou Pantelis
Daskalou Thomas
Dimitriou Maria
Dimtsis Petros
Konstantinou Georgios
Litoksoou Dimitrios
Tasopolous Kostas
Manakoulis Christos
Mpekiari Mariana
Mpoules Tashko
Natsoulis Georgios
Notis Nikolaos
Papadimitriou Dimitrios
Sakelis Nikos
Siekris Trajianos
The Political Secretariat consists of:
Anastasiadis Stavros
Voskopoulos Pavlos
Konstantinou Georgios
Papadimitriou Dimitrios
Sakelis Nikos
The "Nova Zora" Editors' Commission is comprised of:
Vasiliadis Petros
Vaskopoulos Pavlos
Georgiou Pantelis
Kasikas Petros
Litoksoou Dimitrios
Papadimitriou Dimitrios
Sakelis Nikos
The Economic Commission consists of:
Anastasiadis Stavros
Dimtsis Petros
Konstantinou Georgios
On behalf of the Central Council, the POLITICAL
SECRETARIAT.
Macedonian News Service - For
the Macedonians
To contact with the Rainbow-party, send an
e-mail to the following address: misi...@compulink.gr.
Located at
http://www.macedonian.se.org/ and establsihed January 1997
Galina
Panayiotis wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:56:20 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
> wrote:
>
> >ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
> >From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
> >Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
> >What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
> >pamphlet
> >"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
> >This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
> >Greek socialist group OSE
> >(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
> >Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
> >charges for having distributed this
> >pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
> >for them.
> >I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
> > 1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
> >question
> > 2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
> >within Greece to it's position on
> >Macedonia
> Dear Slavko,
> You are refering to 1992 and we have now 1997. Are you that far
> behind? We in Greece had elections in October 1993. The
> Slavomacedonian party took part in the elections. Could you find out
> for me how many votes they got? Don't tell me that the elections were
> not free. No more lies!
> Your name shows you are a Slav (Slavko). Were Alexander and Philip
> Slavs? Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
> to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
> Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
> line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
> he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
> Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
> only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> B.C.) to participate. Alexander the Great came later (356-323 B.C.).
> The passage from the translation of "The History of Herodotus by
> Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics Archive of MIT (the well
> known polytechnic institute) is hereby quoted:
> Now that the men of this family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as
> they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare of my own
> knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they
> are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic
> contest at Olympia. For when Alexander wished to contend in the games,
> and had come to Olympia with no other view, the Greeks who were about
> to run against him would have excluded him from the contest - saying
> that Greeks only were allowed to contend, and not barbarians. But
> Alexander proved himself to be an Argive, and was distinctly adjudged
> a Greek; after which he entered the lists for the foot-race, and was
> drawn to run in the first pair. Thus was his matter settled".
>
> Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
Panagiotis,
I think that it is really spectacular of you to have put Herodotus
online. Is there a site where we can find other classial authors
online?
This is spectacular. I applaud you!
By the way, the name Slavko does not necessarily indicate being a Slav,
becuase that is not what the word means. It means a glorifier or
apraiser of something (usually God).
WHether or not the ancient Macedonians were Slavic peoples i whole or in
part, is immaterial. WHat is material is a continuity within the
heritage of people wyho are Macedonian, clearly Macedonian, whatever
being Macedonian comprises ethnically. It is the continuity found not
only in the living people who are decended from ancient Macedonians,
however ethnically determined, but also the living memory of having
continued to be Macedonian, that is important.
Panayiotis
>ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
>From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
>Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
>What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
>pamphlet
>"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
>This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
>Greek socialist group OSE
>(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
>Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
>charges for having distributed this
>pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
>for them.
>I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
> 1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
>question
> 2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
>within Greece to it's position on
>Macedonia
Dear Slavko,
You are refering to 1992 and we have now 1997. Are you that far
behind? We in Greece had elections in October 1993. The
Slavomacedonian party took part in the elections. Could you find out
for me how many votes they got? Don't tell me that the elections were
not free. No more lies!
Your name shows you are a Slav (Slavko). Were Alexander and Philip
Slavs? Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
B.C.) to participate.
Please see the attachment of the passage from the translation of "The
History of Herodotus by Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics
Archive of MIT (the well known polytechnic institute).
Panayiotis
>ate: Mon, 20 Jul 92 13:20 +1000
>From: PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Tony Hartin)
>Subject: OSE pamphlet finished
>What follows in 12 parts (0-11), is the English translation of the
>pamphlet
>"Crisis in the Balkans: The Macedonian question and the working class"
>This pamphlet was translated from Greek, having been published by the
>Greek socialist group OSE
>(Organisation Socialist Revolution).
>Five members of the OSE face trial on September 18 1992 on treason
>charges for having distributed this
>pamphlet. There is an international campaign of solidarity and support
>for them.
>I decided to put this on the net for two main reasons:
> 1.To give people a chance to read a socialist view of the Macedonian
>question
> 2.To counter the Greek government's attempt to silence opposition
>within Greece to it's position on
>Macedonia
Dear Slavko,
You are refering to 1992 and we have now 1997. Are you that far
behind? We in Greece had elections in October 1993. The
Slavomacedonian party took part in the elections. Could you find out
for me how many votes they got? Don't tell me that the elections were
not free. No more lies!
Your name shows you are a Slav (Slavko). Were Alexander and Philip
Slavs? Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
B.C.) to participate. Alexander the Great came later (356-323 B.C.).
The passage from the translation of "The History of Herodotus by
Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics Archive of MIT (the well
known polytechnic institute) is hereby quoted:
Now that the men of this family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as
they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare of my own
knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they
are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic
contest at Olympia. For when Alexander wished to contend in the games,
and had come to Olympia with no other view, the Greeks who were about
to run against him would have excluded him from the contest - saying
that Greeks only were allowed to contend, and not barbarians. But
Alexander proved himself to be an Argive, and was distinctly adjudged
a Greek; after which he entered the lists for the foot-race, and was
drawn to run in the first pair. Thus was his matter settled".
Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
Regards,
Panayiotis
Andy Fear
Of course what wasn't proved is that the ancient Macedonians were ancient
Greeks. Alexander got into the Olympics by saying he wasn't an ancient
Macedonian really but an Argive. What we have in the story is an ancient
Greek refugee ruling over non-Greeks. We have no need to believe this story
and strong doubts were rightly cast on it in antiquity. However the
important point is that Herodotus' story is strong evidence that the ancinet
Greeks did not regard the ancient macedonians as ancient Greeks.
Andy
Kostas R.
as the rest of the Greeks, same Architecture. We also have Alexandros' own
words testifying that he considered Macedonians Greeks. If it were for just
one of those factors I would say maybe your "lack of evidence" position is a
posibility. With all of them being true, your "lack of evidence" bit is
nonsense.
As far as Herodotus goes, where do you come up with such a conclusion?
Regards,
Kostas R.
Stavros N Karageorgis
In article <335AC5...@erols.com> Galina <sp...@erols.com> writes:
<snip>
>Here ya go:
Here ya go what?
So much for texts in Macedonian Slavonic (Makedonci) being banned in Greece,
And these are political texts to boot.
> Also the Central Council unanimously decided to outcast
>the above mentioned
> members on the grounds of their actions which were
>countrary to the Organisations
> Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.
The 'purges' of the 'deviationists' have already started.
> In its Political Manifesto "Vinozhito" has aired its
>wish to co-operate with all
> democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the country
>in - its struggle for peace and
> European integration.
I like the 'democratic and anti-nationalist forces' part. As if Vinozhito, and
its programme are either democratic (democracy itself means popular
sovereignty, in practice 'majority rule) or 'anti-nationalist' (as if being
anti-GREEK nationalist makes a party and a programme anti-nationalist period)
> To this purpose - attributing great significance to
>minority issues and the
> developing of political democracy in the country -
>"Vinozhito " will Launch initiative
> to establish co-operation on basis of a joint political
>platform with all democratic
> forces.
What does 'democracy' have to do with 'minority issues'?
If all the 'horror stories' of the various ethno-national Macedonian
'conspiracy theorists' and 'doom-sayers' were correct, then the above people,
who have, in the most forthright and direct manner identified themselves as
'Macedonians by ethno-nationality' and committed themselves to a 'Macedonian'
ethnic-national minority of Greek citizens, would have been imprisonned,
harrassed, etc. by the Greek state boogey-man.
> The Political Secretariat consists of:
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Voskopoulos Pavlos
> Konstantinou Georgios
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
Same here.
> The "Nova Zora" Editors' Commission is comprised of:
> Vasiliadis Petros
> Vaskopoulos Pavlos
> Georgiou Pantelis
> Kasikas Petros
> Litoksoou Dimitrios
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
Same here.
> The Economic Commission consists of:
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Dimtsis Petros
> Konstantinou Georgios
Same here,
> On behalf of the Central Council, the POLITICAL
>SECRETARIAT.
> Macedonian News Service - For
>the Macedonians
> To contact with the Rainbow-party, send an
>e-mail to the following address: misi...@compulink.gr.
> Located at
>http://www.macedonian.se.org/ and establsihed January 1997
"While every law restricts individual freedom to some extent
by altering the means which people may use in the pursuit
of their aims, under the Rule of Law the government is prevented
from stultifying individual efforts by ad hoc action. Within the
known rules of the game the individual is free to pursue
his[/her] personal ends and desires, certain that the powers of
government will not be used deliberately to frustrate his[/her] efforts."
-- Friedrich Hayek, _The Road To Serfdom_
Regards,
Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
Ellas69
>Subject: Re: Greek Human Rights revisited, part I
>From: cl...@cc.keele.ac.uk (Andy Fear)
>Date: 21 Apr 1997 10:47:22 GMT
>Message-ID: <5jfgjq$hkj$1...@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk>
>Of course what wasn't proved is that the ancient Macedonians were ancient
>Greeks. Alexander got into the Olympics by saying he wasn't an ancient
>Macedonian really but an Argive. What we have in the story is an ancient
>Greek refugee ruling over non-Greeks. We have no need to believe this
story
>and strong doubts were rightly cast on it in antiquity. However the
>important point is that Herodotus' story is strong evidence that the
ancinet
>Greeks did not regard the ancient macedonians as ancient Greeks.
>Andy
Listen. The word Greece and Greeks is not of that time. It is a modern
term. Hellines is the correct term for that time as it is today. Alexander
was form the northern region know as Makedonia.
If someone was refered to as a New Yorker does that make him/her less
American than a person from Washington? Tread lightly, and don't play
with words. Makedonia was, is and always will be "Greek".
Regards,
Ellas69
Georgi Karadjov
paris (pa...@merck.com) wrote:
: Georgi Karadjov wrote:
: > : History aside Macedonia has its own internal problems to take care of,
: > : and we make fun of you guys for thinking that anything can be changed -
: > : it is simply too late.
: >
: > There is no such thing as to late. I do not want to be sarcastic or
: > something, but I just belive that there is no such thing as to late for
: > anything. I do belive if the people in RoM are exposed freely to the real
: > history of the region as it occured not as it was doctored by orders of
: > diffeent communist parties, many will have opinions different from yours.
: > I do belive that this is not offending statement in any fashion, and that
: > anyone has the right to decide for him/her selfe what is true and what is
: > not.
: >
: > : Paris
: >
: > Georgi Karadjov
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------> : Visit our "Do-It-Yourself!" Website http://web.idirect.com :
: > : Easy, Fun & Affordable Webspace rental for less than $10 per month :
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I agree with you and that's why I am here in this newsgroup to read and
: learn. I guess I went a little off the deep end against what Bulgarians had
: to say, but you are telling me things that make no sense, because the history
: of Macedonia was not told to me in Yugo schools but rather in my household by
: my grandparents, (who by the way were old enough to know what was going or at
: least what had happened at the time of the whole battles between Turks and
: Macedonians) .
That is history told through the lense of personal opinions. I do have a
grand aunt, born in 1904 - she is still alive, and she do have different
tale. The most objective sources I do find are by people from outside
the Balkans
: Why would I not believe them. I also see the writings that Galina has posted,
: and I think that she is supplying more information here than you are. SO post
: some writings and letters by Goce Delchev that tells me he considers himself
: Bulgarian and then maybe I'll believe you.
: I haven't been on this newsgroup long. Maybe you've already posted it, how
: about posting it again for my benefit and the other newbies or lurkers on
: this group?
Preaty hard - I do not have any saved files - at least I do not know if
I have them. The materials are here at home - but I do rearly have time
to sit down and type four five pages. The easiest way is to go and loock
at the arichive of the qroup - I do belive that there is a place where all
posted up to now postings are archivated. If you go and loock, you can
find many materials - tons of them.
: Paris
Georgi Karadjov
----------------------------------------------------------------
: Stop on by the Internet TeleCafe! telnet://telecafe.com:9000 :
----------------------------------------------------------------
Player
Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> wrote in article
<335AC0...@gate.net>...
> Panayiotis wrote:
> >
> > Slavomacedonian
>
> There you go! You are ascribing me names that I don't use and
> that certainly cannot lead to a healthy discussion. How
> would you like me to call you a Slavogreek or a Turkogreek?
>
This is the point we talk about. You don't like the others to ascribe you
names. But you do the same thing to us. If you were called "Macedonian",
how we (the true Macedonians) would be called? Can you tell me?
On the other hand, if you insist on being called Macedonian, then I will
presume you are Greek. Are you? Of course not. So, you are not Macedonian
neither. Because Macedonians are Greeks the same way Athenians,
Peloponissians etc. are Greeks.
Macedonians were Dorians. Dorians were one of the two greek tribes (the
other was Ionians). Athenians were Ionians and Spartans were Dorians. So
Macedonians were close relatives of Spartans. Even their political and
communal structure was similar to Spartans'. However, as Greeks, they were
speaking Greek and worshiped the 12 Greek Gods. They believed that they
derived from Hercules.
However, Olympus (the mountain which was considered by the Greeks as the
residence of Gods) is located in the geographical area of Macedonia. (Would
the Greeks put their gods in a non-greek mountain?)
All the inscriptions found in Macedonia were written in Greek.
Furthermore, the names Alexandros (Alexander) and Philippos (Philip) are
greek names with no doubt and they remain unchanged in Modern Greek.
Alexandros = alex + andras (man) = someone who cannot be defeated by a man,
someone who is protected from men
The prefix "alex" means someone (or something) that cannot be defeated by
someone (or something).
In other words, something that is protected from something
Here are some greek words with the prefix "alex":
alexisfairos = alex + sfaira (bullet) = bullet-proof, something that cannot
be defeated by bullets, something that is protected from bullets
alexikerauno = alex + keraunos = lightning-conductor, something that is
protected from lightnings
alexiptoto = alex + ptosi (fall) = parachute, something that is protected
from falls
Philippos = philos (friend) + ippos(horse) = someone who is friend of the
horses, someone who loves horses.
Even the name of Alexander's horse, Voukefalas, is a greek one:
Voukefalas = vous (ox) + kefali (head) = something that has a head similar
to the head of ox
Galina
Plamen Malinov wrote:
>
> kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
> In article <335AC5...@erols.com> Galina <sp...@erols.com> writes:
> <snip>
> > Dimtsis Petros
> > Konstantinou Georgios
>
> > On behalf of the Central Council, the POLITICAL SECRETARIAT.
> > Macedonian News Service - For the Macedonians
> > To contact with the Rainbow-party, send an
> >e-mail to the following address: misi...@compulink.gr.
> > Located at
> >http://www.macedonian.se.org/ and establsihed January 1997
One of the reasons I put the 1997 stuff was to show that this
organization is not moribund. One of the reaosns I put in the parts
with the names is to indicate the Greek endings ofthe names. This
shouold dispell any thought that there might not have been name
changes. Are all these people ethnic Greeks then? Maybe, and maybe
not:
> The Central Council is comprised of the following members:
> Alliopis Periklis
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Vassiliadis Petros
> Voskopoulous Pavlos
> Georgiou Pantelis
> Daskalou Thomas
> Dimitriou Maria
> Dimtsis Petros
> Konstantinou Georgios
> Litoksoou Dimitrios
> Tasopolous Kostas
> Manakoulis Christos
> Mpekiari Mariana
> Mpoules Tashko
> Natsoulis Georgios
> Notis Nikolaos
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
> Siekris Trajianos
How many Georgieffs, Daskalovs, Dimetsovs, Tassovs, etc. might there be
among them, or Georgievski (like Ljupcho?)whatever.
Stavros N Karageorgis
>kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>In article <335AC5...@erols.com> Galina <sp...@erols.com> writes:
><snip>
>> The Main Page...
>> Organisation
>> principles of the
>> "Vinozhito" Party...
>> Political Manifesto
>> of the "Vinozhito"
>> Party...
>> Other information...
>> On 19th January 1997 the Second Conference of the
>>"Vinozhito" party was held in Lerin. The Conference was attended by 76
>delegates
>>of all local units.
>> It adopted the Political Manifesto and the Organisatory
>>Principles, in addition to electing a Central Council comprised of 19 members.
>> Out of the 76 participant delegates, Pasois Traianos
>>and Pritskas Hristos, disagreed with the national-political character of the
>>organisation, the decisions made by the majority, and withdrew from the
>Conference.
>> The Central Council held its first session in Voden on 26th
>January 1997,
>>and elected a five-member Political Secretariat, an Economic Commission, an
>>Editor's Council, etc. It has been decided to publish the follow-up materials
>>(conclusions ) of the Second Conference in the next edition of the
>>Newsletter. The letter will be available in Macedonian and Greek.
>>
><(SK) So much for texts in Macedonian Slavonic (Makedonci) being banned in
><Greece, And these are political texts to boot.
>(PM) There are positive changes in the last twenty years in the Greek stance
>towards the mentioned population. You ought to be pleased, that there are more
>freedoms in Greece, and maybe the horror years 1913-1975 will be not repeated.
Oh, be quiet Mr. Malinov. This B.S. about 'horror years' is a bit too much
coming from an apologist of Bulgarian, Nazi-collaborationist occupation and
de-Hellenization of Eastern Greek Macedonia during WW II such as yourself.
>> Also the Central Council unanimously decided to outcast
>>the above mentioned members on the grounds of their actions which were
>>countrary to the Organisations Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.
>> In its Political Manifesto "Vinozhito" has aired its
>>wish to co-operate with all democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the
>country
>>in - its struggle for peace and European integration.
><(SK) I like the 'democratic and anti-nationalist forces' part. As if Vinozhito,
>and
><its programme are either democratic (democracy itself means popular
><sovereignty, in practice 'majority rule) or 'anti-nationalist' (as if being
><anti-GREEK nationalist makes a party and a programme anti-nationalist period)
>(PM) Where you judge, that the mentioned party is "anti-Greek" from ? As far as
>I can remember, YOU have posted in these news-groups its Manifesto. There is
>NOTHING against the Greek state in it.
First of all, being anti-Greek nationalist (can you read, BTW) does not mean
being 'against the Greek state'. Secondly, I argued that Vinozhito is against
'Greek nationalism', but in itself that stance does NOT make it
'anti-nationalist' per se. In short 'anti-Greek nationalist' =/= 'anti-Greek',
and 'anti-Greek' =/= 'anti-Greek state'.
> Well, maybe Greece is trying to use
>Bulgarian approach in the minority issue. As known, Bulgaria had great
>difficulties with its 1.2 mln Turkish minority.
What a ridiculous way of putting it. Just this last Monday, a fellow graduate
student, Peter Stamatov, whose father fled the Drama region during WW II after
having publically identified himself with the Bulgarian occupation forces,
presented a paper about the 'renaming' campaing of the middle 1980s, the
'reversal of course' in 1989, and the mobilization of local CP apparatchicks
and local 'ethnic Bulgarians' in mixed regions in response to that 'reversal
of course'. Bulgaria did not have 'great difficulties with its 1.2 mil Turkish
mainority'. Bulgarian citizens of Turkish/Turkic extraction had great
difficulties with Bulgaria in the mid-1980s.
> In the years 1984-85 their
>names were changed forcible into Bulgarian ones,
Not so. They were not changed into indistinguishable Bulgarian names, but into
'Bulgarian-seeming' names that still clearly indicated the non-Bulgarian
origin of the name.
> Turkish was forbidden in the
>schools, and public places, etc. - things very similar to the Greek
>attitude in the near past towards the mentioned population.
WHAT? When were the patronyms of the Muslim by faith Greek citizens (whether
of Turkish ethno-national identity or origin or not) forcibly changed? When
was Turkish prohibited from public spaces? When was Turkish NOT taught in
Muslim schools in Thrace? What on earth are you talking about, foolish man?
> Those measures
>leaded in Bulgaria to an armed opposition, and about 0.4 mln Turks emigrated
>to Turkey. But when in 1990 all human rights were restored to the minorities,
>all difficulties disappeared...
Nonsense. That's when the most vociferous mobilization of ethnic Bulgarian
local party apparatchiks, and local ethnic Bulgarians (who had profited
handsomely in various ways from the 'exodus') took place.
> It is evidently better to have under control
>some process, than to try to suppress it forcible... By the way, in the modern
>history Greeks were ever in time behind the most Bulgarian political
>approaches - usually Bulgarians first tried new methods. For example, the
>first Bulgarian Macedonian Committee was founded in 1893 by Dame Gruev in
>Solun/Selanik/Thessaloniki, when the first Greek Macedonian Committee was
>founded only in 1902 and in Atina/Athens (not in the Ottoman Macedonia) by
>Kalapotakis. The first Bulgarian komitadzhi bands were in the Ottoman
>Macedonia in the early 90-ies, when the first spy raid of Pavlos Melas (Mikis
>Zezas) was in 1903. Only after the Ilinden rebelion in July-September 1903
>Greeks dared to send armed bands, but in that time with the permission and the
>help of the Ottoman authorities...
What the hell are you musing about, foolish, foolish man? What do
'irredentist' come-from-behind mobilizations of Bulgarians and Exarchists in
Ottoman Macedonia (to counter the centuries-long hegemony of Greco-phone
Orthodox Christianity among Christian peasants in Ottoman Macedonia) have to
do with 'political approaches? What kind of a foolish person are you to even
contemplate that Greeks and Greece 'followed' the Bulgarians and Bulgaria in
anything?
>> To this purpose - attributing great significance to
>>minority issues and the developing of political democracy in the country -
>>"Vinozhito " will Launch initiative to establish co-operation on basis of a
>joint political
>>platform with all democratic forces.
><(SK) What does 'democracy' have to do with 'minority issues'?
>(PM) And what does democracy have to do with a country, where the basic human
>rights are violated ? Let us hope, that the bad and evil practices from the
>time 1913-1975 will be forgotten.
Let's not forget anything. What basic human rights and whose basic human were
violated in the 1913-1975 period? Countless mainstream Liberal politicians
were 'exiled' in the 1930's and after 1949, not to mention the countless
Communists and Leftists, of all linguistic and so-called ethnic backgrounds
who were imprisoned and exiled in the same period. Democracy, dear nuclear
physicist, has nothing to do with human and civic rights. Human and civic
rights are PROTECTIONS against democracy, protections of individual liberty
AGAINST the will of the majority. Stick to quantum physics, and fusion, and
leave political theory alone, unless you are prepared to do some serious
reading.
><(SK) If all the 'horror stories' of the various ethno-national Macedonian
><'conspiracy theorists' and 'doom-sayers' were correct, then the above people,
><who have, in the most forthright and direct manner identified themselves as
><'Macedonians by ethno-nationality' and committed themselves to a 'Macedonian'
><ethnic-national minority of Greek citizens, would have been imprisonned,
><harrassed, etc. by the Greek state boogey-man.
>(PM) Have you read the Amnesty International report what happened when one
>of those people decided to change his name, according to the non-Greek
>traditions of his family, and to their family name before 1913... Evidently,
>long way ought to be travelled... Nevertheless, every positive change is of an
>importance.
What happened to him? Who brought charges against him? In any case, Greek
citizens of Macedonian ethno-national conscience and identity have decided to
not only NOTchange their Greek names, but to keep them proudly, so as to make
the point that not every one with a Greek surname has a Greek ethno-national
conscience. The same has happened with many Bulgaro-phile Macedonians, even
scholars (e.g. Vasiliadis (nee Vassilief) who wrote _Whose are You?_ a book on
'Macedonians' in Toronto).
>> The Political Secretariat consists of:
>> Anastasiadis Stavros
>> Voskopoulos Pavlos
>> Konstantinou Georgios
>> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
>> Sakelis Nikos
>> The "Nova Zora" Editors' Commission is comprised of:
>> Vasiliadis Petros
>> Vaskopoulos Pavlos
>> Georgiou Pantelis
>> Kasikas Petros
>> Litoksoou Dimitrios
>> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
>> Sakelis Nikos
>> The Economic Commission consists of:
>> Anastasiadis Stavros
>> Dimtsis Petros
>> Konstantinou Georgios
>> On behalf of the Central Council, the POLITICAL SECRETARIAT.
>> Macedonian News Service - For the Macedonians
>> To contact with the Rainbow-party, send an
>>e-mail to the following address: misi...@compulink.gr.
>> Located at
>>http://www.macedonian.se.org/ and establsihed January 1997
My fellow grad-student, Peter Stamatov, has told me many stories about his
Bulgarian nationalist father from 'Aegean Macedonia' was called a 'Greek' by
Bulgaria Bulgarians when he and his family first arrived in Bulgaria. He also
remarked how he has a 'Greek family name'!!!
Plamen Malinov
kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
In article <335AC5...@erols.com> Galina <sp...@erols.com> writes:
<snip>
> The Main Page...
> Organisation
> principles of the
> "Vinozhito" Party...
> Political Manifesto
> of the "Vinozhito"
> Party...
> Other information...
> On 19th January 1997 the Second Conference of the
>"Vinozhito" party was held in Lerin. The Conference was attended by 76 delegates
>of all local units.
> It adopted the Political Manifesto and the Organisatory
>Principles, in addition to electing a Central Council comprised of 19 members.
> Out of the 76 participant delegates, Pasois Traianos
>and Pritskas Hristos, disagreed with the national-political character of the
>organisation, the decisions made by the majority, and withdrew from the Conference.
> The Central Council held its first session in Voden on 26th January 1997,
>and elected a five-member Political Secretariat, an Economic Commission, an
>Editor's Council, etc. It has been decided to publish the follow-up materials
>(conclusions ) of the Second Conference in the next edition of the
>Newsletter. The letter will be available in Macedonian and Greek.
>
<(SK) So much for texts in Macedonian Slavonic (Makedonci) being banned in Greece,
<And these are political texts to boot.
<
(PM) There are positive changes in the last twenty years in the Greek stance
towards the mentioned population. You ought to be pleased, that there are more
freedoms in Greece, and maybe the horror years 1913-1975 will be not repeated.
<
> Also the Central Council unanimously decided to outcast
>the above mentioned members on the grounds of their actions which were
>countrary to the Organisations Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.
> In its Political Manifesto "Vinozhito" has aired its
>wish to co-operate with all democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the country
>in - its struggle for peace and European integration.
<(SK) I like the 'democratic and anti-nationalist forces' part. As if Vinozhito, and
<its programme are either democratic (democracy itself means popular
<sovereignty, in practice 'majority rule) or 'anti-nationalist' (as if being
<anti-GREEK nationalist makes a party and a programme anti-nationalist period)
(PM) Where you judge, that the mentioned party is "anti-Greek" from ? As far as I
can remember, YOU have posted in these news-groups its Manifesto. There is
NOTHING against the Greek state in it. Well, maybe Greece is trying to use
Bulgarian approach in the minority issue. As known, Bulgaria had great
difficulties with its 1.2 mln Turkish minority. In the years 1984-85 their
names were changed forcible into Bulgarian ones, Turkish was forbidden in the
schools, and public places, etc. - things very similar to the Greek
attitude in the near past towards the mentioned population. Those measures
leaded in Bulgaria to an armed opposition, and about 0.4 mln Turks emigrated
to Turkey. But when in 1990 all human rights were restored to the minorities,
all difficulties disappeared... It is evidently better to have under control
some process, than to try to suppress it forcible... By the way, in the modern
history Greeks were ever in time behind the most Bulgarian political
approaches - usually Bulgarians first tried new methods. For example, the
first Bulgarian Macedonian Committee was founded in 1893 by Dame Gruev in
Solun/Selanik/Thessaloniki, when the first Greek Macedonian Committee was
founded only in 1902 and in Atina/Athens (not in the Ottoman Macedonia) by
Kalapotakis. The first Bulgarian komitadzhi bands were in the Ottoman
Macedonia in the early 90-ies, when the first spy raid of Pavlos Melas (Mikis
Zezas) was in 1903. Only after the Ilinden rebelion in July-September 1903
Greeks dared to send armed bands, but in that time with the permission and the
help of the Ottoman authorities...
> To this purpose - attributing great significance to
>minority issues and the developing of political democracy in the country -
>"Vinozhito " will Launch initiative to establish co-operation on basis of a joint political
>platform with all democratic forces.
<(SK) What does 'democracy' have to do with 'minority issues'?
(PM) And what does democracy have to do with a country, where the basic human
rights are violated ? Let us hope, that the bad and evil practices from the
time 1913-1975 will be forgotten.
> The Central Council would like to express its
>gratitude, on behalf of all members and supporters of " Vinozhito ", to all Macedonians
>who have aided our efforts materially and morally - thus contributing to - the
>achievement of our objective as an organisation.
> The Central Council is comprised of the following members:
> Alliopis Periklis
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Vassiliadis Petros
> Voskopoulous Pavlos
> Georgiou Pantelis
> Daskalou Thomas
> Dimitriou Maria
> Dimtsis Petros
> Konstantinou Georgios
> Litoksoou Dimitrios
> Tasopolous Kostas
> Manakoulis Christos
> Mpekiari Mariana
> Mpoules Tashko
> Natsoulis Georgios
> Notis Nikolaos
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
> Siekris Trajianos
<(SK) If all the 'horror stories' of the various ethno-national Macedonian
<'conspiracy theorists' and 'doom-sayers' were correct, then the above people,
<who have, in the most forthright and direct manner identified themselves as
<'Macedonians by ethno-nationality' and committed themselves to a 'Macedonian'
<ethnic-national minority of Greek citizens, would have been imprisonned,
<harrassed, etc. by the Greek state boogey-man.
(PM) Have you read the Amnesty International report what happened when one
of those people decided to change his name, according to the non-Greek
traditions of his family, and to their family name before 1913... Evidently,
long way ought to be travelled... Nevertheless, every positive change is of an
importance.
> The Political Secretariat consists of:
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Voskopoulos Pavlos
> Konstantinou Georgios
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
> The "Nova Zora" Editors' Commission is comprised of:
> Vasiliadis Petros
> Vaskopoulos Pavlos
> Georgiou Pantelis
> Kasikas Petros
> Litoksoou Dimitrios
> Papadimitriou Dimitrios
> Sakelis Nikos
> The Economic Commission consists of:
> Anastasiadis Stavros
> Dimtsis Petros
> Konstantinou Georgios
> On behalf of the Central Council, the POLITICAL SECRETARIAT.
Josif Grezlovski
Player wrote:
>
> Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> wrote in article
> <335AC0...@gate.net>...
> > Panayiotis wrote:
> > >
> >
> > There you go! You are ascribing me names that I don't use and
> > that certainly cannot lead to a healthy discussion. How
> > would you like me to call you a Slavogreek or a Turkogreek?
> >
>
You said nothing new. Same old rubbish as before. It appears
that no matter what we confront you with, you are going to remain
steadfastly tied to your childhood indoctrinations. Trouble is that,
that stuff is catastrophically outdated, consistently refuted by modern
scholars, and devoid of any scholarly content.
-Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, period. This is an
invention by your government to hold on to the acquired territories in
1913. Professors at renowned universities throughout the world can, and
do attest to the uniqueness of the Macedonians and their seperate
existance as people, as Macedonians, not as Greeks, whom they generously
hated and subdued for centuries. Greece is, perhaps, the only country in
the world that celebrates and worships its conquerer. A lie is a lie, no
matter how one dresses it up.
There was nothing Greek about ancient Macedonians. Greece has no
right to appropriate and hijack their historical greatness. Stop
perpetuating a forgery and a theft of a nation. You can paint all day
long, but the "rust"/truth is going to come through.
P.S. Abolish the treaty of Bucharest!
Good day
Josif
°MFNÿ
Panayiotis
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:49:03 -0400, Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>WHether or not the ancient Macedonians were Slavic peoples i whole or in
>part, is immaterial. WHat is material is a continuity within the
>heritage of people wyho are Macedonian, clearly Macedonian, whatever
>being Macedonian comprises ethnically. It is the continuity found not
>only in the living people who are decended from ancient Macedonians,
>however ethnically determined, but also the living memory of having
>continued to be Macedonian, that is important.
Dear Galina,
How can the ancient Macedonians be of Slavic origin, since the first
mention of Slavs in the Balkans is during the 5th century A.D.
Slavs started invading the Balkans during the reign of emperor
Justinian (circa 430 A.D.). Skopians cannot claim they are descendants
of the ancient Macedonians. Afterall ancient Skopje was not in
Macedonia, but in Dardania.
I can see their point to use the term Macedonian in their name,
because they have lived in this geographical area for centuries. But
what about us living in the Greek Macedonia (which comprises more than
52% of the geographical Macedonia and includes the strongholds of
ancient Macedonians, like Thessaloniki, Aigai, Veria, Dion, Pella
etc)?
Yes, people of the Greek Macedonia can be called Greek-Macedonians and
people of FYROM of Slavic descent can include the term Macedonian in
their identity (Slavo-Macedonian). Don't forget that an Albanian
minority of about 40% exists in that country. Are you going to call
them Macedonians also? A name must be found for FYROM that will
identify both groups of people living there.
I am afraid, by your insisting to call your state "Macedonia", you
enstrange the Albanian minority and some day it will backfire on you
(danger of unrest and civil war). Hope you will not regret it later.
It is quite certain that a name has already been decided upon and our
discussions are in vain. Still, I enjoy reading other people's ideas.
This is a contact in a sense.
Regards,
Panayiotis
Panayiotis
On 21 Apr 1997 10:47:22 GMT, cl...@cc.keele.ac.uk (Andy Fear) wrote:
>Of course what wasn't proved is that the ancient Macedonians were ancient
>Greeks. Alexander got into the Olympics by saying he wasn't an ancient
>Macedonian really but an Argive. What we have in the story is an ancient
>Greek refugee ruling over non-Greeks. We have no need to believe this story
>and strong doubts were rightly cast on it in antiquity. However the
>important point is that Herodotus' story is strong evidence that the ancinet
>Greeks did not regard the ancient macedonians as ancient Greeks.
>
>Andy
Dear Andy,
Why do you twist the truth? Your logic is "fuzzy logic" (look it up,
it is very modern in mathematics). Not yours only, but I have seen it
in many of your compatriots. No facts, just statements without strong
arguments or reasoning. One time you say:" We have no need to believe
this story" and yet you come to the arbitrary conclusion:"However the
important point is that Herodotus' story is strong evidence that the
ancinet Greeks did not regard the ancient macedonians as ancient
Greeks". Euripidis (born in Salamis c.485, lived and died in
Macedonia), wrote and had his dramas played in the court of the
Macedonian king Archelaos. How could he declare in one of his plays
"Anyone not Greek, is a barbarian"? And that, in front of the king and
a Macedonian audience. If the Macedonians were not Greeks, they
wouldn't have left him to live another day to write his magnificent
dramas!
Regards,
Panayiotis
Plamen Malinov
< <del> ...
<> (PM) Turkish was forbidden in the schools, and public places, etc. - things
<> population.
<
<was Turkish prohibited from public spaces? When was Turkish NOT taught in
<Muslim schools in Thrace? What on earth are you talking about, foolish man?
(PM) What is the meaning of foolish ? According to Oxford Advanced Learner,s
Dictionary of Current English - without reason, sence or good judgement. Now
let us remind, that the discussion was about SLAVIC MACEDONIAN population in
Greece. I have compared the attitude towards Turkish minority in Bulgaria
until the end of 80-ies with the attitude of the Greek authorities from 1913
to the fall of "Colonel,s regime" after Cyprus disaster (1974) towards the
mentioned population in the discussion. Now let us distinguish, who is
without reason, sence or good judgement.
Regards: Plamen M.
Stavros N Karageorgis
><kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
><>p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
>< <del> ...
><> (PM) Turkish was forbidden in the schools, and public places, etc. - things
><> very similar to the Greek attitude in the near past towards the mentioned
><> population.
><
><(SK) WHAT? When were the patronyms of the Muslim by faith Greek citizens
>(whether
><of Turkish ethno-national identity or origin or not) forcibly changed? When
><was Turkish prohibited from public spaces? When was Turkish NOT taught in
><Muslim schools in Thrace? What on earth are you talking about, foolish man?
>< <del> ...
>(PM) What is the meaning of foolish ? According to Oxford Advanced Learner,s
>Dictionary of Current English - without reason, sence or good judgement. Now
>let us remind, that the discussion was about SLAVIC MACEDONIAN population in
>Greece. I have compared the attitude towards Turkish minority in Bulgaria
>until the end of 80-ies with the attitude of the Greek authorities from 1913
>to the fall of "Colonel,s regime" after Cyprus disaster (1974) towards the
>mentioned population in the discussion. Now let us distinguish, who is
>without reason, sence or good judgement.
> Regards: Plamen M.
Plamen, don't you try to play games with me, especially with English. In the
original post, which you have conveniently mutilated above, you spoke of the
'similar population in Greece' (or some such monstrous construction) when
discussing ethnic Turks in Bulgaria.
Nothing of the sort which happened in the middle 1980's with 'ethnic Turk'
Bulgarian citizens, during PEACE-TIME, ever happened in Greek Macedonia. With
the Neuilly Treaty and following the end of WWII all those Slavonic
Macedonians who felt themselves Bulgarian 'joined the motherland'.
BTW, how's your French? I have a good title for you to read about what Greek
citizens, of any and all 'ethnic' or 'linguistic' background, went through
from 1936 till the fall of the Colonel's dictatorship, but it is in French.
In any case, I have extemely little patience for 'human rights and civility'
lessons from persons such as yourself, i.e. Bulgarians who 'lament' the defeat
of the Nazis during WWII because it meant the putting to rest (FINALLY) of
Bulgarian irredentism in most of geographic Macedonia, and who rely on
pseudo-legalistic arguments to 'explain' the role of Bulgarian regular and
irregular forces in the Nazi occupation of geographic Macedonia in the early
1940s.
And, if you want to cut to the chase, YOU are the foolish man, and you have
proven that with your own postings to everybody's satisfaction. So GET!
Galina
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
>
> In article <5k2fbi$u...@ci.ist.utl.pt> p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
>
> ><kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
> ><>p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
> >< <del> ...
> ><> (PM) Turkish was forbidden in the schools, and public places, etc. - things
> ><> very similar to the Greek attitude in the near past towards the mentioned
> ><> population.
> ><
> "While every law restricts individual freedom to some extent
> by altering the means which people may use in the pursuit
> of their aims, under the Rule of Law the government is prevented
> from stultifying individual efforts by ad hoc action. Within the
> known rules of the game the individual is free to pursue
> his[/her] personal ends and desires, certain that the powers of
> government will not be used deliberately to frustrate his[/her] efforts."
> -- Friedrich Hayek, _The Road To Serfdom_
>
> Regards,
> Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
> E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu
Yo, Stavros, don't pick on Plamen,
But you are right when it comes to the Bulgarian Turkish human rights
record and intentionally hazy when it comes ot the Greek record.
As to the Bulgarians joining their little comrades bit, I have the
following quote form the excellent book Eleni by Nikolas Gage (ISBN
345-41043-2, Ballentine, New York, 1983) which I just read last two
days. Here he is talking about the battle area at Vitsi near Grammos,
and his sister surrendering and coming into a prisoner camp:
"By the light of the dawn the guarded prisoners could see a spectacular
view of the battle above them as the csoldiers drove the guerrillas up
the corpse-littered peaks. the number of prisoners in the compound gre
and Glykeria trembled as she saw soldiers beat captured 'andartinas'
with their gun butts becuase the women would not speak Greek, only their
Macedonian dialectTheir captors took this as proof they were loyal to
the Communists, who had promised to create a separate Macedonian state
in Northern Greece."
Nicholas Gage's sister is able to break free of this group when she is
fortunate enough to be recognized as an Epirote. But lest you try and
twist words and suggest that these were all little commie fighters
surrounding dear Glykeria, herself one of the many unwilling andartini,
Gage also has from his sister the memory of when coming into custody
originally sitting next to "a Macedonian peasant woman with a cradle
strapped to her back".
Yeah, let's give dear Plamen a real clear idea of what went on in Greece
during the period of the 1940s. Gonna be real fun reading for him, eh?
Galina
Plamen Malinov
Stavros N Karageorgis wrote:
p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
>><kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N Karageorgis) wrote:
>><>p...@cfn.ist.utl.pt (Plamen Malinov) writes:
> <del> ...
>><> (PM) Turkish was forbidden in the schools, and public places, etc. - things
>><> very similar to the Greek attitude in the near past towards the mentioned
>><> population.
>
>><(SK) WHAT? When were the patronyms of the Muslim by faith Greek citizens (whether
>><of Turkish ethno-national identity or origin or not) forcibly changed? When
>><was Turkish prohibited from public spaces? When was Turkish NOT taught in
>><Muslim schools in Thrace? What on earth are you talking about, foolish man?
> <del> ...
> >(PM) What is the meaning of foolish ? According to Oxford Advanced Learner,s
> >Dictionary of Current English - without reason, sence or good judgement. Now
> >let us remind, that the discussion was about SLAVIC MACEDONIAN population in
> >Greece. I have compared the attitude towards Turkish minority in Bulgaria
> >until the end of 80-ies with the attitude of the Greek authorities from 1913
> >to the fall of "Colonel,s regime" after Cyprus disaster (1974) towards the
> >mentioned population in the discussion. Now let us distinguish, who is
> >without reason, sence or good judgement.
>
> original post, which you have conveniently mutilated above, you spoke of the
> 'similar population in Greece' (or some such monstrous construction) when
> discussing ethnic Turks in Bulgaria.
>
> Nothing of the sort which happened in the middle 1980's with 'ethnic Turk'
> Bulgarian citizens, during PEACE-TIME, ever happened in Greek Macedonia. With
> the Neuilly Treaty and following the end of WWII all those Slavonic
> Macedonians who felt themselves Bulgarian 'joined the motherland'.
>
> BTW, how's your French? I have a good title for you to read about what Greek
> citizens, of any and all 'ethnic' or 'linguistic' background, went through
> from 1936 till the fall of the Colonel's dictatorship, but it is in French.
>
> In any case, I have extemely little patience for 'human rights and civility'
> lessons from persons such as yourself, i.e. Bulgarians who 'lament' the defeat
> of the Nazis during WWII because it meant the putting to rest (FINALLY) of
> Bulgarian irredentism in most of geographic Macedonia, and who rely on
> pseudo-legalistic arguments to 'explain' the role of Bulgarian regular and
> irregular forces in the Nazi occupation of geographic Macedonia in the early
> 1940s.
(PM) I continue to think (nevertheless your opinion) , that you have at least
one of the described characteristics about the entity in Oxford Advanced
Learner,s Dictionary of Current English in discussion - absence of good
judgement. The original language construction IS citated, and my explanation
is clear to everybody. So that you, instead of confessing your mistake, are
behaving very much as the famous donkey of Nastradin Hodzha... That again
sticks you to the regarded word entity...
Now let me explain again that NOBODY of Bulgarians with a common sence
laments about the defeat of the Nazis in the WW II. Bulgaria was FORCED to
accept their conditions. Let me again shortly explain the role of Bulgaria in
the WW II. Bulgaria signed the Three-side Pact in the winter of 1941
under strong German pressure. Germans very much wanted to help Italians in the
occupation of Greece - there their allies Italians were almost defeated.
Because of this they put an ultimatum to Bulgarian king Boris III - to let the
German troops travel via Bulgarian territory to Greece, as Sweden had let
travelling of German troops and military materials via Swedish territory to
the occupied Norway. But it is a fault of king Boris III and its
Prime-Minister at that time - Prof. Bogdan Filov, that Bulgaria did not act as
Sweden, but because of German promices about Macedonia, not only let
travelling of troops, but also declared its engagement to the Three-side Pact.
On the other hand, if king Boris III were refused to that German ultimatum,
than Bulgaria would have been occupied, as Yugoslavia.
Germans had promised that after the war, if Bulgarians helped their
army, the possession of the areas of Vardar Macedonia, Northern Greece (Aegean
Macedonia and Thrace) and Eastern Serbia (Western Outlands) would be
considered again. As known, afterwards Germans gave the mentioned territories,
which were occupied by them, and belonged to them, to Bulgarians - only to
supervise them. If Bulgaria had refused, than the mentioned areas would be
given to Italians and Albanians.
Bulgarian king Boris III accepted, but Bulgaria did not send ONE
soldier to the fronts, kept diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union up to
8th of September 1944 (when Stalin declared war without any reason) and also
refused to deport Bulgarian Jews (more than 51 000) to German Concentration
Camps. The fate of Jews in the mentioned areas, which belonged to Germany, and
in which Bulgarian army was only with police-supervisor functions, was decided
by Germans. All of them (about 13 000) were deported, and only 13 of them
survived - one per thousand. Unfortunately, Bulgarians were obliged to help
Germans in their task by the treaty - but all Jews, which menaged to escape
into Bulgaria survived. It is interesting to know also the opinion of the
world Jewish society - there is a hall, dedicated to saving of Bulgarian Jews
in the Hollocaust Museum in New York, and there is a park, named Bulgaria by
the same reasons in Jerusalem, Israel, where there are many monuments, devoted
to that saving of Bulgarian Jews.
In the beginning of September 1944, all Bulgarian army forces were
withdrawn from Vardar Macedonia, Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia and Thrace)
and Eastern Serbia (Western Outlands). The new government with Prime-Minister
Constantin Muraviev began negotiations in Kairo with the U. S. and the U. K.
Germans felt themselves nonsecure in Bulgaria, and withdrew all their forces
from there. After they understood about going negotiations, they attacked from
the occupied Yugoslavia - in the region of Vidin and Kula, in order to secure
the corridor from Greece to Austria, but were driven back. Bulgaria was ready
to enter in the war on the side of the Allies. But then Stalin prevented this,
and declared war to Bulgaria on 8th of September, 1944. On 9th of September,
1944 a pro-communist government took the power by coup d,etat. It declared war
to Germany, and after that Bulgarian army took its heavy part in the
liberation of Yugoslavia and Hungary - in the battles with Germans it gave
more than 40 000 victims.
What do you think, that administrating in German possessed regions was
a pleasure ? You ought to have in mind, that in Nothern Greece, as in whole
Greece, a famine existed in that time, because of strong absence of grain.
Bulgarian authorities were trying to help as they could, but how could anybody
help much, when the harvest was GERMAN possession, and was exported from the
regions ? Nevertheless, the famine was less in Bulgarian administrated regions
(well, I agree, that especially great help was given to those, which declared
themselves of Bulgarian origin). I have some knowledge about the tobacco trade
in Drama-Kavala region in 1942-1944, which I want to give as an example about
Bulgarian-German relations in Northern Greece. It was a real hell for
Bulgarian firms. The reason was, that independently and parallel with
Bulgarian Police, and Bulgarian Army Police, also German State Secret Police -
Gestapo (Geheime Staats Polizei) acted. Greek producers were forced from
Gestapo to sell their tobacco to German firms, because tobacco was announced
as strategic material for the German army. German firms gave a half and even a
third part of the price, offered by Bulgarian firms (well, I can agree, that
it was also very much under the international price). Maybe some reason for
higher Bulgarian price was also the protests of Bulgarian tobacco producers,
which were agains the import of cheap Greek tobacco into Bulgaria. The
practice was, that if some Greek producer wanted to sell his tobacco to
Bulgarian firm, he had to give a private commission to Gestapo higher
officers. Otherwise he risked to be arrested from them, and even to be killed,
or to disappear without sign. Very often the partners of Bulgarian firms were
arrested by Germans, although the protests of Bulgarian authorities. You ought
to have in mind, that Greeks were regarded from Gestapo as German slaves.
There was a practice some wealthy Greeks to be arrested from Gestapo, and
sometimes to be released (after a conversation with their relatives, and some
sum - in Switzerland Franks, or U. S. Dollars - German Reichsmarks and
Bulgarian Levs were regarded as non-convenient...). That was an important
source of money for Gestapo, and Bulgarian authorities could not help, because
of the German possession of the regions... Gestapo did not dare to arrest
Bulgarians, and to insist for commissions from Bulgarian firms, but their
Greek counterparts had to pay instead... There is a question - why Germans
permitted Bulgarian firms to buy tobacco at all ? The reason was, that it was
not possible with the money which Germans paid to Greek producers, they to buy
bread for their survival. Because of this, Germans permitted some of the
tobacco to be sold to Bulgarian firms in higher prices - otherwise Greek
producers would stop tobacco planting, because they could not live from it. So
that mainly with Bulgarian money Germans kept Greek tobacco producers in
producing condition, but the main profit from their producing was for the
German firms... As you can see, the German possession of the regions was the
source of problems... There was an ambiguity about the supreme authority, and
Germans used it. So that Bulgarian tobacco trading firms were in a strong
pressure and in non-market conditions. Do you think, that Bulgarians liked it?
Regards: Plamen M.
Panayiotis
On 21 Apr 1997 10:47:22 GMT, cl...@cc.keele.ac.uk (Andy Fear) wrote:
> What we have in the story is an ancient Greek refugee ruling over non-Greeks.
Andy,
Do you have any other example in ancient History, where a refugee went
and ruled another country? Don't mention Oedipus. He was not a
"refugee".
Panayiotis
Panayiotis
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:52 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
wrote:
>Dear, dear, you're not another proponent of the 'first-name-equals-
>ethnicity' theory?! FYI Slavko means 'glory' and I'm as much
>Slav as you are.
>
Dear Slavko,
Your name is Slav. That's not a crime. Don't deny your roots. Have you
seen any English, French or Italian, or even Greek name like Slavko,
Mitko, Vranko, Franjo etc?
>> Were Alexander and Philip Slavs?
>
>No, it doesn't appear they were.
>
>>Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
>> to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
>
>Probably true. Since you know so much about them then you must
>also know that they populated the whole of the territory of
>modern Greece.
>
Not true. Not "populated". They conquered her.
>> Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
>> line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
>> he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
>> Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
>> only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
>> B.C.) to participate.
>
>This is also true but I wonder if you knew the whole story. They FIRST
>REJECTED him because he wasn't Greek and AFTER, by bold fiction, he
>invented the tale of his supposed ancestry from Argos in the
>Peloponessus
>that they admitted him.
>
>
Not true. You say: "They FIRST REJECTED him". Not true at all. The
co-runners, the athletes, not the judges, wanted to have him excluded,
because he was very fast, a strong opponent. But why don't we let
Herodotus speak:
"Now that the men of his family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as
they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare of my own
knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they
are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic
contest at Olympia. For when Alexander wished to contend in the games,
and had come to Olympia with no other view, the Greeks who were about
to run against him would have excluded him from the contest - saying
that Greeks only were allowed to contend, and not barbarians. But
Alexander proved himself to be an Argive, and was distinctly adjudged
a Greek; after which he entered the lists for the foot-race, and was
drawn to run in the first pair. Thus was this matter settled".
[Herodotus V-22].
Herodotus proves that MACEDONIANS were GREEKS, Dorians. Read below:
"for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which
the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to
the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called
Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they
settled, under the name of Macedni [plural for Macedonians, Herodotus
original: Makednon, i.e. Macedonian nation], in the chain of Pindus.
Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis
having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as
Dorians". [Herodotus I-56].
Also another passage:
"Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian fleet. From
Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemonians with sixteen ships;
the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians
with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and
the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and Macedonians all of
them (except those from Hermione), and had emigrated last from
Erineus, Pindus, and Dryopis. The Hermionians were Dryopians, of the
race which Hercules and the Malians drove out of the land now called
Doris. Such were the Peloponnesian nations". [Herodotus VIII-43].
The above passages are from the translation of "The History of
Herodotus by Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics Archive of MIT
(the well known polytechnic institute).
Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
>I'll do that gladly. I'll also offer you several passages from
>diferent authors on the subject.
Slavko,
Many authors tried to interpret the Bible in a heretical way. Many
authors also within the 19th and 20th centuries expressed different
and contradicting views about the Macedonians. Why do you cite
"heretics", since you can go to the original, i.e. Herodotus.
He had no reason, as modern authors do, to mislead us. No special
interests. That's why he is called the "Father of History".
Slavko,
I see an attempt from FYROM to disengage from the Slav ancestry.
I foresee that pretty soon you will start learning Greek, so that
within 30-50 years you will use that as an additional weapon to prove
that you are descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
Regards,
Panayiotis
P.S. You can make a Turk your friend, but not a Slav!
Galina
Panayiotis wrote:
>
what language? Slav of course, as Mitko, Goce etc .
>
> As for the Serbs being our BEST friends, you are wrong. They are Slavs
> and one cannot trust them either. Laocoon, in front of the Wooden
> Horse (Trojan Horse), said to the Trojans: Beware of Greeks bearing
> gifts! Was he a racist?
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
>
>
Panagiotis,
Of course he was not racist, he was just realistic. ;)
Galina
Goce Naumoski
On Sun, 18 May 1997, Panayiotis wrote:
> On Sun, 18 May 1997 09:01:45 +0200, Goce Naumoski <go...@win.tue.nl>
> wrote:
> >His name, Slvako, comes from 'glory', and means 'the glorious one'.
> >Do you know the words "Slava Tebe Gospode", 'Glory to You, God'?
> >In Macedonia, there are first names (female) Makedonka, and derivatives
> >Dona, Donka, and male: Don, Done, Doncho, etc. Also there are
> >surnames (last names) Makedonsk.
> >BTW, Mitko, comes from Dimitar (Dimitrous, I believe, in Greek).
> >Franjo is Slovenian or Croatian or both, similar to Frank (Frank
> >Sinatra), and Vranko comes probably from Vranec which (in Macedonia)
> >is used for a horse race. Feel free to correct me, please, on this
> >one.
>
> >> Slavko,
> >> I see an attempt from FYROM to disengage from the Slav ancestry.
> >> I foresee that pretty soon you will start learning Greek, so that
> >> within 30-50 years you will use that as an additional weapon to prove
> >> that you are descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
>
> >You seem to me to be a a small racist pig. Afterall, what's wrong
> >with the Slavs: Russians outnumber you, have the greatest part of
> >the earth, Czechs and Slovaks are coming back to their glories
> >from before the WWI, etc. etc., and the best one: Serbs are your
> >'BEST' friends. So, you lying racist pig, you made Slavs your
> >friends!
>
> Dear Goce,
> You got it all wrong. I respect Slavs, I just don't trust them. They
> have a History and a Culture. I am glad that you accept your Slav
> descent. But, Slavko and others do not. They consider themselves
> descendants of Alexander and Philip!
Where did I say/write that 'I accept my Slav descent'?
And what is wrong with a person considering himself or herself
a real descendant of Alexander and Phillip?
How do you descirbe/define 'descendancy', BTW?
But this was not the point, wasn't it?
BTW, I think it the best to be at the meeting point of the Slavic
and Hellenic parts of the world :)
>
> Yes, I have been told that Slavko comes from the word "Slava". But in
> what language? Slav of course, as Mitko, Goce etc .
In Greek :-)))
> As for the Serbs being our BEST friends, you are wrong. They are Slavs
> and one cannot trust them either. Laocoon, in front of the Wooden
The history seems to prove you wrong, but never mind. You (the Greeks)
could even choose the Devil to be your BEST friend if you can gain
something from/about Macedonia ;^)
> Horse (Trojan Horse), said to the Trojans: Beware of Greeks bearing
> gifts! Was he a racist?
I'm not the one to give judgments about mythology, however, you were,
my dear, the one to write the sentence:
"P.S. You can make a Turk your friend, but not a Slav!".
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
>
HaND,
Goce.
Panayiotis
On Sun, 18 May 1997 07:13:27 -0400, Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>Panayiotis wrote:
>>
> what language? Slav of course, as Mitko, Goce etc .
>>
>> As for the Serbs being our BEST friends, you are wrong. They are Slavs
>> and one cannot trust them either. Laocoon, in front of the Wooden
>> Horse (Trojan Horse), said to the Trojans: Beware of Greeks bearing
>> gifts! Was he a racist?
>> Regards,
>> Panayiotis
>>
>>
>
>
>Panagiotis,
>
>Of course he was not racist, he was just realistic. ;)
>
>Galina
Dear Galina,
Me too.
Regards,
Panayiotis
Goce Naumoski
On Sat, 17 May 1997, Panayiotis wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:52 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Dear, dear, you're not another proponent of the 'first-name-equals-
> >ethnicity' theory?! FYI Slavko means 'glory' and I'm as much
> >Slav as you are.
> >
> Dear Slavko,
> Your name is Slav. That's not a crime. Don't deny your roots. Have you
> seen any English, French or Italian, or even Greek name like Slavko,
> Mitko, Vranko, Franjo etc?
His name, Slvako, comes from 'glory', and means 'the glorious one'.
Do you know the words "Slava Tebe Gospode", 'Glory to You, God'?
In Macedonia, there are first names (female) Makedonka, and derivatives
Dona, Donka, and male: Don, Done, Doncho, etc. Also there are
surnames (last names) Makedonsk.
BTW, Mitko, comes from Dimitar (Dimitrous, I believe, in Greek).
Franjo is Slovenian or Croatian or both, similar to Frank (Frank
Sinatra), and Vranko comes probably from Vranec which (in Macedonia)
is used for a horse race. Feel free to correct me, please, on this
one.
[rest deleted]
> Slavko,
> I see an attempt from FYROM to disengage from the Slav ancestry.
> I foresee that pretty soon you will start learning Greek, so that
> within 30-50 years you will use that as an additional weapon to prove
> that you are descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
> P.S. You can make a Turk your friend, but not a Slav!
You seem to me to be a a small racist pig. Afterall, what's wrong
with the Slavs: Russians outnumber you, have the greatest part of
the earth, Czechs and Slovaks are coming back to their glories
from before the WWI, etc. etc., and the best one: Serbs are your
'BEST' friends. So, you lying racist pig, you made Slavs your
friends!
HaND,
The Great Duke George of Ohrid and surroundings, :-)
Panayiotis
>Do you know the words "Slava Tebe Gospode", 'Glory to You, God'?
>In Macedonia, there are first names (female) Makedonka, and derivatives
>Dona, Donka, and male: Don, Done, Doncho, etc. Also there are
>surnames (last names) Makedonsk.
>BTW, Mitko, comes from Dimitar (Dimitrous, I believe, in Greek).
>Franjo is Slovenian or Croatian or both, similar to Frank (Frank
>Sinatra), and Vranko comes probably from Vranec which (in Macedonia)
>is used for a horse race. Feel free to correct me, please, on this
>one.
>> Slavko,
>> I see an attempt from FYROM to disengage from the Slav ancestry.
>> I foresee that pretty soon you will start learning Greek, so that
>> within 30-50 years you will use that as an additional weapon to prove
>> that you are descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
>You seem to me to be a a small racist pig. Afterall, what's wrong
>with the Slavs: Russians outnumber you, have the greatest part of
>the earth, Czechs and Slovaks are coming back to their glories
>from before the WWI, etc. etc., and the best one: Serbs are your
>'BEST' friends. So, you lying racist pig, you made Slavs your
>friends!
Dear Goce,
You got it all wrong. I respect Slavs, I just don't trust them. They
have a History and a Culture. I am glad that you accept your Slav
descent. But, Slavko and others do not. They consider themselves
descendants of Alexander and Philip!
Yes, I have been told that Slavko comes from the word "Slava". But in
Slavko Mangovski
Panayiotis wrote:
>
> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 21:17:52 -0400, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Dear, dear, you're not another proponent of the 'first-name-equals-
> >ethnicity' theory?! FYI Slavko means 'glory' and I'm as much
> >Slav as you are.
> >
> Dear Slavko,
> Your name is Slav.
And yours is Greek. My uncle's name is Dimitri, so is my son's.
My other uncle is called Stavro. Tell us now, Panayotis, what
can we deduct from all this, using your logic.
That's not a crime.
Is that a new thing in pGreece?
Don't deny your roots.
I deny my roots? I always said that me, as the rest of my
nation, are product of thousands of years of intermingling
of ethnicities and cultures on Macedonian soil. We pride
ourself with our contribution to Slavic culture.
Let's look at you. If you claim your're Greek from Solun
then you probably are a Turk or a Grkoman. Tell us about
your roots. Don't deny them!
Have you
> seen any English, French or Italian, or even Greek name like Slavko,
> Mitko, Vranko, Franjo etc?
But I've seen many pGreeks named Mario, many Russians and English
called Alexandar and Philip and still many Macedonians named Sotir
(Soter) and Trajan and Elena etc.
> >> Were Alexander and Philip Slavs?
> >
> >No, it doesn't appear they were.
> >
> >>Alexander lived during the 4th century B.C. and the Slavs came
> >> to the Balkans 10 centuries later.
> >
> >Probably true. Since you know so much about them then you must
> >also know that they populated the whole of the territory of
> >modern Greece.
> >
> Not true. Not "populated". They conquered her.
You're actually right. First they conquered her, THEN they populated
her.
>
> >> Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book (Book V,
> >> line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered themselves Greeks and
> >> he proves it. He presents several points. One of them is that the
> >> Greeks did not allow barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was
> >> only for Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> >> B.C.) to participate.
> >
> >This is also true but I wonder if you knew the whole story. They FIRST
> >REJECTED him because he wasn't Greek and AFTER, by bold fiction, he
> >invented the tale of his supposed ancestry from Argos in the
> >Peloponessus
> >that they admitted him.
> >
> >
> Not true. You say: "They FIRST REJECTED him". Not true at all.
So you deny that they first rejected him?
Are you sure you can correctly interpret texts? Let's look:
The
> co-runners, the athletes, not the judges, wanted to have him excluded,
So he was rejected.
> because he was very fast, a strong opponent. But why don't we let
> Herodotus speak:
Yeah let's:
>
> "Now that the men of his family are Greeks, sprung from Perdiccas, as
> they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare of my own
> knowledge, and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they
> are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic
> contest at Olympia. For when Alexander wished to contend in the games,
> and had come to Olympia with no other view, the Greeks who were about
> to run against him would have excluded him from the contest - saying
So they rejected him, pardon excluded him.
> that Greeks only were allowed to contend, and not barbarians. But
An extremely important phrase, etsablishing beyond any further
doubt, that Macedonians and their Royals were not considered
Greeks at the time of Alexander I.
> Alexander proved himself to be an Argive, and was distinctly adjudged
> a Greek; after which he entered the lists for the foot-race, and was
> drawn to run in the first pair.
You're somewhat confused. First you say they 'excluded' him because
they were afraid he might win and now it seems that as soon as he
established he's Greek they let him in. Something's wrong here.
Think, boy, think! What is the real reason?
> [Herodotus V-22].
>
> Herodotus proves that MACEDONIANS were GREEKS, Dorians. Read below:
>
> "for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which
> the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to
> the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called
> Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they
> settled, under the name of Macedni [plural for Macedonians, Herodotus
> original: Makednon, i.e. Macedonian nation],
Maybe.
in the chain of Pindus.
> Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis
> having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as
> Dorians". [Herodotus I-56].
Yet it seems that other Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedonians as
Greek.
Here's Demosthenes, you must have heard of him. I hear he's not so
famous in Greece nowdays since he dares to deny that the 'Macedonia:
4000 years of Greek' history BS. Yet he's the most famous orator
of all times and a great Greek patriot. Poor Demosthenes,
he probably would've been in jail today if he said similar things.
Demosthenes Philippic 3 31 [dem. 9.31]
[30] Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks
suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they
suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece, and
they might have been regarded as the acts of a
legitimate son, born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some
fault or error in the management of his estate: so
far he would deserve blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that
it was not one of the blood, not the lawful heir who
was acting thus.
[31] But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and
squandered what he had no right to, heavens! how much
more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have
no such qualms about Philip and his present
conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but
not even a barbarian from any place that can be
named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was
never yet possible to buy a decent slave.
[32] Yet what is wanting to crown his insolence? Not content with the
destruction of cities, is he not organizing the
Pythian games, the common festival of the Greeks, and if he cannot be
present in person, sending his menials to act as
stewards? [Is he not master of Thermopylae and the passes into Greece,
holding those places with his garrisons and his
mercenaries? Has he not the right of precedence at the Oracle, ousting
us and the Thessalians and the Dorians and the
rest of the Amphictyons from a privilege which not even all Greek states
can claim?]
######################################
As we see Greeks knew who Dorians were in those times and it's very
clear that
Macedonians were NOT among them. Another fact that invalidates that
theory is
is that Macedonians themselves knew nothing about this Dorian
connection. If
they then Alex I would'nt had to say he comes from Argos.
>
> Also another passage:
>
> "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian fleet. From
> Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemonians with sixteen ships;
> the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians
> with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and
> the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and Macedonians all of
Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
> them (except those from Hermione), and had emigrated last from
> Erineus, Pindus, and Dryopis. The Hermionians were Dryopians, of the
> race which Hercules and the Malians drove out of the land now called
> Doris. Such were the Peloponnesian nations". [Herodotus VIII-43].
>
> The above passages are from the translation of "The History of
> Herodotus by Herodotus", part of the Internet Classics Archive of MIT
> (the well known polytechnic institute).
> Refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.v.html.
>
> >I'll do that gladly. I'll also offer you several passages from
> >diferent authors on the subject.
>
> Slavko,
> Many authors tried to interpret the Bible in a heretical way. Many
> authors also within the 19th and 20th centuries expressed different
> and contradicting views about the Macedonians. Why do you cite
> "heretics", since you can go to the original, i.e. Herodotus.
> He had no reason, as modern authors do, to mislead us. No special
> interests. That's why he is called the "Father of History".
Of lies to. He's actually called "Father of History and Lies."
> Slavko,
> I see an attempt from FYROM to disengage from the Slav ancestry.
What can I say? If you see 'fyrom' then something's wrong with
you. All the world sees Macedonia.
> I foresee that pretty soon you will start learning Greek,
Actually, I've been trying for the past 30 years.
so that
> within 30-50 years you will use that as an additional weapon to prove
> that you are descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
Well, if you see that as 100 years ago so today we Macedonians
claim descendance to everything Macedonian. Why would anything
change if I spoke Greek?
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
> P.S. You can make a Turk your friend, but not a Slav!
Why is that? Is that because of your Turk roots?
Actually I had saveral good Greek friends so what you say
is BS like the rest.
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> shows the classic symptoms of his
famous memory lapses so we'll have to go through the same treatment
once again.
People should not worry. The procedure of relieving his "new-born
Macedoniansm" is painless. The shots to him are part of the cure.
By the time we will be done he will be OK.
He’ll show signs of improvement. Yet, it is still
possible he may go overboard and even start
shouting the most extreme Greek propaganda I have
heard in my life!
Just stay with me, but do be prepared for such a
turn of events... :-)
He wrote on May/19/1997:
>
> > > > Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book
> > > > (Book V, line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered
> > > > themselves Greeks and he proves it. He presents several
> > > > points. One of them is that the Greeks did not allow
> > > > barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was only for
> > > > Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> > > > B.C.) to participate.
> > >
> > > This is also true but I wonder if you knew the whole story.
> > > They FIRST REJECTED him because he wasn't Greek and AFTER, by
> > > bold fiction, he invented the tale of his supposed ancestry
> > > from Argos in the Peloponessus that they admitted him.
So, if the story is true, the managers of the games thought that the
lineage presented was reasonable and consistent with their Pelopon-
nesian accounts. And it is not as if the Argives themselves were not
around...
\
> > The co-runners, the athletes, not the judges, wanted to have him
> > excluded,
>
> So he was rejected.
No, Mr.Mangovski. Don't jump ahead! According to the account he was
simply "investigated". We do not know who the other athletes were.
They may had never seen a Macedonian before (if they were from Cyprus,
Sicily, Libya, S.France, the Black Sea, etc.).
> >
> > because he was very fast, a strong opponent. But why don't we let
> > Herodotus speak:
>
> Yeah let's:
>
> > "Now that the men of his family are Greeks, sprung from
> > Perdiccas, as they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can
> > declare of my own knowledge, and which I will hereafter make
> > plainly evident. That they are so has been already adjudged by
> > those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. For when
> > Alexander wished to contend in the games, and had come to
> > Olympia with no other view, the Greeks who were about to run
> > against him would have excluded him from the contest - saying
>
> So they rejected him, pardon excluded him.
>
> > that Greeks only were allowed to contend, and not barbarians. But
>
> An extremely important phrase, etsablishing beyond any further
> doubt, that Macedonians and their Royals were not considered
> Greeks at the time of Alexander I.
My, my,...
Aren't we quick to establish things "beyond further doubt"?
It is not as if the same author himself lists the Macedonians and Dorians
being of the same nation! Or is he?
In just a matter of lines, you yourself, Mr.Mangovski, allow for that:
>
> > [Herodotus V-22].
> >
> > Herodotus proves that MACEDONIANS were GREEKS, Dorians. Read
> > below:
> >
> > "for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in
> > which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen,
> > they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which
> > is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the
> > Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni [plural for
> > Macedonians, Herodotus original: Makednon, i.e. Macedonian
> > nation],
>
> Maybe.
So stop being so "unwavering".
You know: Expressions like "beyond any further doubt",
and your other delightful crap.
> > in the chain of Pindus.
> > Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from
> > Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became
> > known as Dorians". [Herodotus I-56].
>
> Yet it seems that other Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedonians as
> Greek.
But Mr.Mangovski... the author himself was a DORIAN !!!
So calm down my ignorant little propagandist.
> Here's Demosthenes, you must have heard of him.
>
Sure! (By the way: He was no Dorian.)
>
> I hear he's not so famous in Greece nowdays
Then you HEARD wrong Mr.Mangovski.
We will have to examine your hearing as well,
when we are done with these shots.
Don't despair!
> since he dares to deny that the 'Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek'
> history BS. Yet he's the most famous orator of all times
Ooooh... the therapy starts to work!
We brought up your dormant pro-Greek sentiments!
Just a favour: Don’t start screaming the compliment, for we may upset
some Italians. You know: Cicero and all...
> and a great Greek patriot. Poor Demosthenes, he probably would've
> been in jail today if he said similar things.
No. He is honoured with streets that carry his name, and his works
are read and studied in schools -as those of the other Greeks.
He tried for the interests of Athens, as Brasidas for those of Sparta,
Pelopidas for Thebes, Aristeas for Corinth, and so on.
It is not as if all are not honoured.
And in modern history Kolokotronis and Karaiskakis and Miaoulis
contributed, but also fought in civil war. Yet all are appreciated.
> Demosthenes Philippic 3 31 [dem. 9.31]
>
> [30] Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks
> suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they
> suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece,
> and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son,
> born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or
> error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve
> blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one
> of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus.
> [31] But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and
> squandered what he had no right to, heavens! how much more
> monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have
> no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is
> not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a
> barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a
> pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible
> to buy a decent slave.
What else do you want to establish one’s prejudice. And do not tell
me that this is not apparent! Even your favourite Borza admits it.
In a frequently posted bit, Demosthenes lets known that Aischines
visited Philip and considered him the most HELLENIC man of all people
(oration "On the Embassy", I believe). And, in fact, Aischines’
oration beat Demosthenes’ that day.
You see: Demethenes himself allows us to get two different views.
So please: Do not be so unwavering and do not generalise things from
this pronouncement.
> [32] Yet what is wanting to crown his insolence? Not content with
> the destruction of cities, is he not organizing the Pythian games,
> the common festival of the Greeks, and if he cannot be present in
> person, sending his menials to act as stewards? [Is he not master
> of Thermopylae and the passes into Greece, holding those places
> with his garrisons and his mercenaries? Has he not the right of
> precedence at the Oracle, ousting us and the Thessalians and the
> Dorians and the rest of the Amphictyons from a privilege which not
> even all Greek states can claim?]
>
> As we see Greeks knew who Dorians were in those times and it's very
> clear that Macedonians were NOT among them.
But my ignorant, ignorant, ignorant, Mr.Mangovski...
First of all: Only the Phokians were ousted. Demosthenes may be
misinforming the public.
Second -and that is truly hilarious- the "Dorians" mentioned here are
the homonymous little state in C.Greece. They were not
ALL the Dorians (Argos, Sparta, Corinth, Suracuse,
Taras, Cyrene, Thera, etc.). If the Persians controlled
Ionia, they did not control ALL Ionians (Athens, etc.).
> Another fact that invalidates that theory is is that Macedonians
> themselves knew nothing about this Dorian connection.
But these are the words of an Athenian orator.
And he does not actually say that.
> If they then Alex I would'nt had to say he comes from Argos.
>
But Alexander I was asked about his "own" family.
Even in Greek city-state history it was not uncommon for a figure to be
of a different background/stock compared to the subjects.
But even if I go along with your assumption on the knowledge of the
Dorian connection: Once the original group split, and the Dorians
headed south, to Doris (and then to Peloponnesos, etc.), how would the
Macedonians who stayed by Pindos and Olympos know what happened to their
"cousins", and what traditions they maintained; even what name they came
to have? (i.e., Dorians)
And for your information:
Argos fits in with the story of the Herakleids and the Dorians.
> >
> > Also another passage:
> >
> > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian fleet. From
> > Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemonians with sixteen
> > ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium;
> > the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the
> > Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These
> > were Dorians and Macedonians all of
>
> Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
"""""""""""" """"""""""""""""
Some of these were Macedonian...
Who would have thought that the shots would make
Mangovski take THE MOST radical, extremist pro-
Hellenic stand I have even encountered in my
life!!!
You do not mind if I keep this extract, this response, this precious gem
and circulate it from time to time, Mr.Mangovski?!! Do you?
I think we are done for today.
You can get dressed now.
This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
Let’s see who the next patient is...
Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Slavko Mangovski
John Prodromidis wrote:
>
> Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> shows the classic symptoms of his
> famous memory lapses so we'll have to go through the same treatment
> once again.
>
> People should not worry. The procedure of relieving his "new-born
> Macedoniansm" is painless. The shots to him are part of the cure.
> By the time we will be done he will be OK.
Hellensm vs the World again?
>
> He’ll show signs of improvement. Yet, it is still
> possible he may go overboard and even start
> shouting the most extreme Greek propaganda I have
> heard in my life!
>
> Just stay with me, but do be prepared for such a
> turn of events... :-)
>
> He wrote on May/19/1997:
> >
> > > > > Herodotus, the Father of History (485-421 B.C.), in his book
> > > > > (Book V, line 22) says the Macedonian leaders considered
> > > > > themselves Greeks and he proves it. He presents several
> > > > > points. One of them is that the Greeks did not allow
> > > > > barbarians to take place in the Olympics. It was only for
> > > > > Greeks. And they let king Alexander I (the first, 495-448
> > > > > B.C.) to participate.
> > > >
> > > > This is also true but I wonder if you knew the whole story.
> > > > They FIRST REJECTED him because he wasn't Greek and AFTER, by
> > > > bold fiction, he invented the tale of his supposed ancestry
> > > > from Argos in the Peloponessus that they admitted him.
>
> So, if the story is true, the managers of the games thought that the
> lineage presented was reasonable and consistent with their Pelopon-
> nesian accounts.
Which accounts are those?
And it is not as if the Argives themselves were not
> around...
>
> \
> > > The co-runners, the athletes, not the judges, wanted to have him
> > > excluded,
> >
> > So he was rejected.
>
> No, Mr.Mangovski. Don't jump ahead! According to the account he was
> simply "investigated". We do not know who the other athletes were.
I'm sure we do. There is a preserved list of the partecipants and
curisouly Alexander I is not on it.
> They may had never seen a Macedonian before (if they were from Cyprus,
> Sicily, Libya, S.France, the Black Sea, etc.).
Let's presume that these Greeks never saw a Macedonian before. How about
the others? Surely the majority were from more civilized parts of Greece
who actually saw a Macedonian and knew. Why didn't they tell the other
Greeks from far away to shut up as the Macedonians are known as Greeks?
The matter had to be settled by judges.
Yeah, maybe. Even if go absolutely berserk and start interpreting
the above passage they way you interpret it we'll have still
have to consider all the other evidence that shows what
historical science says: the Macedonians were not considered
Greeks and neither they themselves considered so.
Shell we wonder why didn't Alexander I use the above story?
>
> You know: Expressions like "beyond any further doubt",
> and your other delightful crap.
>
> > > in the chain of Pindus.
> > > Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from
> > > Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became
> > > known as Dorians". [Herodotus I-56].
> >
> > Yet it seems that other Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedonians as
> > Greek.
>
> But Mr.Mangovski... the author himself was a DORIAN !!!
And? Does he directly say the "Macedonians were Dorians?" If they were
then why do we have the Alex I affair. Don't you think other Dorians
knew about the existance of Dorians in Macedonia? They didn't neither
there is other record of ever the Macedonians being considered Dorians.
These are all your contructions of card castles based on
wishful thinking.
>
> So calm down my ignorant little propagandist.
Great description of yourself.
>
> > Here's Demosthenes, you must have heard of him.
> >
>
> Sure! (By the way: He was no Dorian.)
Ahh, so he didn't know! Poor ignorant Demosthenes.
>
> >
> > I hear he's not so famous in Greece nowdays
>
> Then you HEARD wrong Mr.Mangovski.
Evidence? You yourself consider himself ignorant while
we can see that he was extremely knowledgeable.
>
> We will have to examine your hearing as well,
> when we are done with these shots.
> Don't despair!
>
> > since he dares to deny that the 'Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek'
> > history BS. Yet he's the most famous orator of all times
>
> Ooooh... the therapy starts to work!
>
> We brought up your dormant pro-Greek sentiments!
You're an idiot Prodromides if you think I don't respect Greek culture.
(What a question, I know you are)!
> Just a favour: Don’t start screaming the compliment, for we may upset
> some Italians. You know: Cicero and all...
So let them complain :-) My vote goes to Demosthenes.
>
> > and a great Greek patriot. Poor Demosthenes, he probably would've
> > been in jail today if he said similar things.
>
> No. He is honoured with streets that carry his name, and his works
> are read and studied in schools -as those of the other Greeks.
I'm sure. Also quite misinterpreted, I'm sure. I just die to
see how his phillipics are taught.
>
> He tried for the interests of Athens, as Brasidas for those of Sparta,
> Pelopidas for Thebes, Aristeas for Corinth, and so on.
True yet his words clearly distinguish between Greeks and non-Greeks.
> It is not as if all are not honoured.
Well, that surely depends on the present political climate in Athens.
>
> And in modern history Kolokotronis and Karaiskakis and Miaoulis
> contributed, but also fought in civil war. Yet all are appreciated.
I'm sure they are. What's the point?
>
> > Demosthenes Philippic 3 31 [dem. 9.31]
> >
> > [30] Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks
> > suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they
> > suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece,
> > and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son,
> > born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or
> > error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve
> > blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one
> > of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus.
> > [31] But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and
> > squandered what he had no right to, heavens! how much more
> > monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have
> > no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is
> > not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a
> > barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a
> > pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible
> > to buy a decent slave.
>
> What else do you want to establish one’s prejudice.
Yet he was saying this to the Athenians. Don't tell us
Athenians didn't know Macedonians!
And do not tell
> me that this is not apparent! Even your favourite Borza admits it.
What? That Demostehens was biased? Of course he was. He was a patriot.
How does that change what he say?
>
> In a frequently posted bit, Demosthenes lets known that Aischines
> visited Philip and considered him the most HELLENIC man of all people
> (oration "On the Embassy", I believe). And, in fact, Aischines’
> oration beat Demosthenes’ that day.
The fruits of the mastermind Philip. Demostehens, however, proved
to be right and lead Athenian revolt against Macedon.
>
> You see: Demethenes himself allows us to get two different views.
No, he doesn't.
> So please: Do not be so unwavering and do not generalise things from
> this pronouncement.
I don't.
>
> > [32] Yet what is wanting to crown his insolence? Not content with
> > the destruction of cities, is he not organizing the Pythian games,
> > the common festival of the Greeks, and if he cannot be present in
> > person, sending his menials to act as stewards? [Is he not master
> > of Thermopylae and the passes into Greece, holding those places
> > with his garrisons and his mercenaries? Has he not the right of
> > precedence at the Oracle, ousting us and the Thessalians and the
> > Dorians and the rest of the Amphictyons from a privilege which not
> > even all Greek states can claim?]
> >
> > As we see Greeks knew who Dorians were in those times and it's very
> > clear that Macedonians were NOT among them.
>
> But my ignorant, ignorant, ignorant, Mr.Mangovski...
>
> First of all: Only the Phokians were ousted. Demosthenes may be
> misinforming the public.
May be?! If Demosthens misinformed the public it would've been
his end. On the contrary, he INFORMED the public.
> Second -and that is truly hilarious- the "Dorians" mentioned here are
> the homonymous little state in C.Greece. They were not
> ALL the Dorians (Argos, Sparta, Corinth, Suracuse,
> Taras, Cyrene, Thera, etc.). If the Persians controlled
> Ionia, they did not control ALL Ionians (Athens, etc.).
May be. Why should we beleive such a stupid story?
>
> > Another fact that invalidates that theory is is that Macedonians
> > themselves knew nothing about this Dorian connection.
>
> But these are the words of an Athenian orator.
So they are.
> And he does not actually say that.
>
> > If they then Alex I would'nt had to say he comes from Argos.
> >
>
> But Alexander I was asked about his "own" family.
> Even in Greek city-state history it was not uncommon for a figure to be
> of a different background/stock compared to the subjects.
I see. That is why Herodotus introduces the Macedonian King as 'a
Greek ruling Macedonians.' Well, I guess since he was Dorian and
the Macedonians were also so he did that anyway.
>
> But even if I go along with your assumption on the knowledge of the
> Dorian connection:
Not mine. That's what mainstream history says.
Once the original group split, and the Dorians
> headed south, to Doris (and then to Peloponnesos, etc.), how would the
> Macedonians who stayed by Pindos and Olympos know what happened to their
> "cousins", and what traditions they maintained; even what name they came
> to have? (i.e., Dorians)
>
The Macedonians had extensive contacts with Greece from the time
of Pisistrates. There is no way the Greeks didn't know who
the Macedonians were. They did and we have clear evidence about
it. Stop building card castles.
> And for your information:
> Argos fits in with the story of the Herakleids and the Dorians.
Which story would that be? It seems by Roman times there were 4.
Which one is your favorite?
>
> > >
> > > Also another passage:
> > >
> > > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian fleet. From
> > > Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemonians with sixteen
> > > ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium;
> > > the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the
> > > Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These
> > > were Dorians and Macedonians all of
> >
> > Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
> """""""""""" """"""""""""""""
>
> Some of these were Macedonian...
>
> Who would have thought that the shots would make
> Mangovski take THE MOST radical, extremist pro-
> Hellenic stand I have even encountered in my
> life!!!
????
>
> You do not mind if I keep this extract, this response, this precious gem
> and circulate it from time to time, Mr.Mangovski?!! Do you?
Be my guest.
>
> I think we are done for today.
>
> You can get dressed now.
>
> This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
I got it now! You're in a mental asylum playing a doctor!
Galina
John Prodromidis wrote:
>
>
> I think we are done for today.
>
> You can get dressed now.
>
> This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
>
> Let’s see who the next patient is...
>
> Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Don;t even THINK about it. I do not trust my body anywhere near your
hands. ;)
Galina
Slavko Mangovski wrote:
>
> John Prodromidis wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think we are done for today.
>
> >
> > You can get dressed now.
> >
> > This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
>
> I got it now! You're in a mental asylum playing a doctor!
>
> >
> > Let’s see who the next patient is...
> >
> > Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
> >
> > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I love it!
playing doctor, ha ha - Do you know what this means in idiomatic
American English, Prodromis?
hee hee hee
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski's <ma...@gate.net> real issues are few. He wrote
yesterday on -what else?- that old account about Alexander I: \
> > > So he was rejected.
> >
> > No, Mr.Mangovski. Don't jump ahead! According to the account he was
> > simply "investigated". We do not know who the other athletes were.
>
> I'm sure we do. There is a preserved list of the partecipants and
> curisouly Alexander I is not on it.
I say this is incorrect. If you think otherwise post all the relevant
information: the participants in the list, origin, ranking in the race,
etc.
> > They may had never seen a Macedonian before (if they were from Cyprus,
> > Sicily, Libya, S.France, the Black Sea, etc.).
>
> Let's presume that these Greeks never saw a Macedonian before. How about
> the others?
In all such events, issues are resolved by referees: The Hellanodikai in
this case.
> Surely the majority were from more civilized parts of Greece
> who actually saw a Macedonian and knew. Why didn't they tell the other
> Greeks from far away to shut up as the Macedonians are known as Greeks?
> The matter had to be settled by judges.
What contacts were there with Macedonia prior to the early 5th century.
Think bigger than Chalkidiki and Athens. But by all means: Do provide
estimates of the 'majority'. I say we do not know how many runners were
there. Again: I will be anxiously awaiting for the list of the
participants you’ll provide.
\
> >
> > So stop being so "unwavering".
>
> Yeah, maybe. Even if go absolutely berserk and start interpreting
> the above passage they way you interpret it we'll have still
> have to consider all the other evidence that shows what
> historical science says: the Macedonians were not considered
> Greeks and neither they themselves considered so.
Take it with your favourite Badian, but in the meanwhile do provide and
quote for me the original Macedonian text you have in mind.
\
> > > I hear he's not so famous in Greece nowdays
> >
> > Then you HEARD wrong Mr.Mangovski.
>
> Evidence? You yourself consider himself ignorant while
> we can see that he was extremely knowledgeable.
You have nothing to argue with, but still you try!
I said he was famous today and in high esteem. The rest is irrelevant to
the issue at hand.
But since you are jumping to it: He was a good orator. As a politician
he portrayed things skewed. Do you challenge that?
\
> > Just a favour: Don’t start screaming the compliment, for we may upset
> > some Italians. You know: Cicero and all...
>
> So let them complain :-) My vote goes to Demosthenes.
Thank you. Mine too. We like our eloquent guy but want to be modest.
And it is tough: We also have St.John Chrysostomos...
> >
> > > and a great Greek patriot. Poor Demosthenes, he probably would've
> > > been in jail today if he said similar things.
> >
> > No. He is honoured with streets that carry his name, and his works
> > are read and studied in schools -as those of the other Greeks.
>
> I'm sure. Also quite misinterpreted, I'm sure. I just die to
> see how his phillipics are taught.
Word by word they are taught from the original: grammar, syntax...
And there is nothing to misinterpret. You see, we are quite reconciled
with the past and the Spartan, Athenian, Theban, Morait, Islandic,
Communist, Liberal disputes (particularly the "older" ones).
And please, knock wood! I do not want you dead.
\
> > > though he is
> > > not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a
> > > barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a
> > > pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible
> > > to buy a decent slave.
> >
> > What else do you want to establish one’s prejudice.
>
> Yet he was saying this to the Athenians. Don't tell us
> Athenians didn't know Macedonians!
Some did, some did not. This does not mean the piece is not prejudiced.
Read it: "No honor", "pestilence", "decent slave".
The same bit with flashes from a crowded stadium in Nuremberg, a couple
of "hails" and I think you might be more inclined to agree with me.
> > And do not tell me that this is not apparent! Even your
> > favourite Borza admits it.
>
> What? That Demostehens was biased? Of course he was. He was a patriot.
> How does that change what he say?
It puts his speeches into perspective. How many times do we have to say
the same thing? He is biased, inaccurate and should be properly
discounted.
> >
> > In a frequently posted bit, Demosthenes lets known that Aischines
> > visited Philip and considered him the most HELLENIC man of all people
> > (oration "On the Embassy", I believe). And, in fact, Aischines’
> > oration beat Demosthenes’ that day.
>
> The fruits of the mastermind Philip. Demostehens, however, proved
> to be right and lead Athenian revolt against Macedon.
How was he "right", again?
> >
> > You see: Demethenes himself allows us to get two different views.
>
> No, he doesn't.
How come? "On the Embassy" 300s.
\
> > Second -and that is truly hilarious- the "Dorians" mentioned here are
> > the homonymous little state in C.Greece. They were not
> > ALL the Dorians (Argos, Sparta, Corinth, Suracuse,
> > Taras, Cyrene, Thera, etc.). If the Persians controlled
> > Ionia, they did not control ALL Ionians (Athens, etc.).
>
> May be. Why should we beleive such a stupid story?
Because you are a not a stupid man.
You'll start by opening a map of tribes or countries of ancient Greece.
> > > If they then Alex I would'nt had to say he comes from Argos.
> > >
> >
> > But Alexander I was asked about his "own" family.
> > Even in Greek city-state history it was not uncommon for a figure to be
> > of a different background/stock compared to the subjects.
>
> I see. That is why Herodotus introduces the Macedonian King as 'a
> Greek ruling Macedonians.'
First, quote the translation of Herodotos that you prefer -please...
> Well, I guess since he was Dorian and the Macedonians were also so he did
> that anyway.
Do not guess. You saw the text, and you gave us a wonderful
interpretation. \
> > > > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian fleet. From
> > > > Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemonians with sixteen
> > > > ships; the Corinthians with the same number as at Artemisium;
> > > > the Sicyonians with fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the
> > > > Troezenians with five; and the Hermionians with three. These
> > > > were Dorians and Macedonians all of
> > >
> > > Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
> > """""""""""" """"""""""""""""
> >
> > Some of these were Macedonian...
> >
> > Who would have thought that the shots would make
> > Mangovski take THE MOST radical, extremist pro-
> > Hellenic stand I have ever encountered in my
> > life!!!
>
> ????
I am wondering too!!! It is amazing! Isn't it?
The hilarious thing would crack me up in ANY case.
But the fact that comes from you, makes is completely ironic.
John Prodromidis
Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote today:
\
> > Let’s see who the next patient is...
> >
> > Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
>
> near your hands. ;)
And... why would one trust his/her hands near "there"?
\
> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I love it!
>
> playing doctor, ha ha - Do you know what this means in idiomatic
> American English, Prodromis?
>
> hee hee hee
Dear Mrs Sneider,
I understand the motives of your intervention and I appreciate
the protective efforts (although not required in this forum), so
I am just biding you my regards and wishes for a good life.
Panayiotis
On Wed, 21 May 1997 00:33:26 -0400, Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>Slavko Mangovski wrote:
>>
>> John Prodromidis wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I think we are done for today.
>>
>> >
>> > You can get dressed now.
>> >
>> > This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
>>
>> I got it now! You're in a mental asylum playing a doctor!
>>
>> >
>> > Let’s see who the next patient is...
>> >
>> > Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
>> >
>> > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>
>
>
>Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I love it!
>
>playing doctor, ha ha - Do you know what this means in idiomatic
>American English, Prodromis?
>
>
>hee hee hee
Dear Galina,
Did kids use you as a patient?
Regards,
Panayiotis
Galina
Panayiotis wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 May 1997 00:33:26 -0400, Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Slavko Mangovski wrote:
> >>
> >> John Prodromidis wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > You can get dressed now.
> >> >
> >> > This phase of the operation has been successful. Thank you.
> >>
> >> I got it now! You're in a mental asylum playing a doctor!
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Let’s see who the next patient is...
> >> >
> >> > Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
> >> >
> >> > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> >> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >playing doctor, ha ha - Do you know what this means in idiomatic
> >American English, Prodromis?
> >
> >
> >hee hee hee
>
> Dear Galina,
> Did kids use you as a patient?
> Regards,
> Panayiotis
It was just too funny, Panagiotis
Galina
John Prodromidis wrote:
>
> Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote today:
> \
> > > Let’s see who the next patient is...
> > >
> > > Ooooh. Mr.Grezlovski....
> >
> > near your hands. ;)
>
> And... why would one trust his/her hands near "there"?
>
> \
> >
> > playing doctor, ha ha - Do you know what this means in idiomatic
> > American English, Prodromis?
> >
> > hee hee hee
>
> I understand the motives of your intervention and I appreciate
> the protective efforts (although not required in this forum), so
> I am just biding you my regards and wishes for a good life.
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
GET A SENSE OF HUMOR, PRODROMIS
SOME PEOPLE.......
John Prodromidis
Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote on May/21/1997:
\
> John Prodromidis wrote:
\
> > Dear Mrs Sneider,
> > I understand the motives of your intervention and I appreciate
> > the protective efforts (although not required in this forum), so
> > I am just biding you my regards and wishes for a good life.
>
I
I read you, Gal a
i
n
> SOME PEOPLE.......
>
Some pets......
John Prodromidis
To the question:
So what did we get so far from the replay of the standard issues,
in the last few days with Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>?
The answer is: Very little other than entertainment from Slavko.
1) On the issue of Alexander I's participation in some Greek
Olympics:
- Mangovski merely cut down on claiming that Alexander I was
rejected.
- He has been extremely silent in defending his original
position that the incident proves the non-Greeknes of the
Macedonian Royals and People "beyond any further doubt".
- For a moment he claimed we knew ALL the participants in THAT
race. Presumably he was misinformed on the extend of Julius
Africanus' extanct list, for nothing much was procured.
- It is conceivable he accepted the argument that: issues
concerning qualifications were better dealt and resolved not
by a crowd or other athletes talking or shouting, but (in
such events as the Olympics) by the appropriate referees
or judges.
The affair was, presumably, dealt in a procedure before or at
the time of the traditional oath of fair contest (first day),
and the anouncement of the competitors (second day). The
Foot-race itself taking place on the 4th day, according to
F.A.Wright.
2) On related issues and Herodotos:
- He asked what account might exist to confirm/corroborate to
the Judges the story of one's Herakleid/Peloponnesian
descent, as told to the Judges of the games of Herakles in
the very Peloponnesos. And I found that 'cute'.
- He skipped the official Herakleid tradition of the Macedonian
Royals by jumping from the late 5th and early 4th century BC,
to the hypotheses articulated on the 2nd century CE.
That was 'cute' also! :-)
- His position that the "Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedo-
nians as Greek", once confronted with the information that
Herodotos himself was Dorian, evolved into "Does he directly
say the 'Macedonians were Dorians'?".
When, exposed to passages 1.56 and (mainly) 8.43 -where the
Dorian and Macedonian are mentioned as one nation- he went
with the alternative (yet ingenious interpretion) that some
Pelopponnesians such as the Spartans or the Corintians were
Macedonians ! :-)
Date: May/19/1997:
> > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian
> > fleet. From Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemo-
> > nians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the same
> > number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with fifteen;
> > the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and
> > the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and
> > Macedonians all of
>
> Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
"""""""""""" """"""""""""""""
:-)
On Demosthenes (whom he interjected on his own under the erroneous
impression he may have been another Dorian):
- He unreservedly views the Athenian as "the most famous orator
of all times". (That is: "all times".)
- However, he thinks his orations are taught badly in Greece,
but he hasn't actually seen it; yet he "just dies to see" it.
I sort of told him we don't want casualties, and to knock
wood.
- He acknowledges that: "Demostehens was biased? Of course he
was."
- Yet, he still places his unwavering trust on him. He wonders
about Demosthenes' prejudice: "How does that change what he
say?"
The answer, of cource, is that it doesn't change what has
been said. The evidence of his prejudice though should affect
our evaluation of the testimony.
- Mangovski sticks to the position "True yet his words clearly
distinguish between Greeks and non-Greeks." And that is
coupled with "If Demosthens misinformed the public it
would've been his end. On the contrary, he INFORMED the
public."
...And... we all know the results of the well-informed, well-
prepared and calculated Athenian actions back then! :-)
- Somehow Mangovski rejects Demosthenes' Aischinean reference
on Philip (i.e., that Philip was considered "the most
Hellenic of all men"; On the Embassy 307-8), as evidence of
two different views...
But by now such things are "peanuts"!
3) Other:
- He claims extensive contacts of Macedon with S.Greece since
the time of Peisistratos, but seems to make too much out of
Athens.
- He confuses the small Dorian tetrapolis in central Greece,
that sat on the Amphictionic Council, with the whole Dorian
world.
This again illustrates the necessity to differentiate
appellations between groups -whenever possible- to avoid
creating confusion among the general public.
This is something that also applies on Mangovski's ignorant
and confusing 'motto' about the ancient Macedonians:
"They Macedonians, we Macedonians". [May/11/97]
4) Overall:
- He still insists on the existence of unspecified evidence
that the ancient Macedonians did not consider THEMselves
Greek.
- He continues adopting a generalizing, vague expression that
Macedonians were not consider Greeks back then; although,
Hesiod, Herodotos, Hellanikos, Thucydides, [pseudo] Kalli-
sthenes, Plutarch, the speaches in Polybios and Livy and
Arrian, Justin, and others, have left us evidence to the
contrary.
Why? Whom can he convince?
Slavko Mangovski
John Prodromidis wrote:
>
> To the question:
>
> So what did we get so far from the replay of the standard issues,
> in the last few days with Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net>?
>
> The answer is: Very little other than entertainment from Slavko.
I'm so glad real history is entertaining to you, John. That makes
me hope that you'll be able to learn something sooner or later.
To entertain you further I'll try to use mainstream science in
answering your statements:
>
> 1) On the issue of Alexander I's participation in some Greek
> Olympics:
> - Mangovski merely cut down on claiming that Alexander I was
> rejected.
What that means? Here it is:
Hammond:
We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games
c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings,
were considered not to be Greeks.
Wilken:
When Alexander I of Macedon, who, though a vassal of Xerxes,
had in the Persian War given many proofs of his sympathy with
the Greek cause, desired to take part in the Olympic Games,
to which only Hellenes had access, he was first refused as
a barbarian
> - He has been extremely silent in defending his original
> position that the incident proves the non-Greeknes of the
> Macedonian Royals and People "beyond any further doubt".
Just read the above passages, John.
> - For a moment he claimed we knew ALL the participants in THAT
> race. Presumably he was misinformed on the extend of Julius
> Africanus' extanct list, for nothing much was procured.
According to Borza (In the Shadow of Olympus, p.112) Alex I name
does no appear in the victor lists.
> - It is conceivable he accepted the argument that: issues
> concerning qualifications were better dealt and resolved not
> by a crowd or other athletes talking or shouting, but (in
> such events as the Olympics) by the appropriate referees
> or judges.
So a king is being hauled before the judges who had to hear
his story FIRST before reaching a decision. That, John
shows that the Macedonians and their Kings WERE NOT CONSIDERED
GREEKS.
Borza:
Badian shows that, until quite late, the Macedonians as people were
excluded from panhellenic festivals in which only Greeks were permitted
to partecipate, that the attempts of their kings to participate met
with objections from the Greeks, that contemporary
Greek literature offers numerous examples of Greek contempt for the
Macedonians as barbarians, and that to the extent that Macedonian
kings participated in panhellenic or bilateral arrangements with
Greeks, they did so as individuals.
> The affair was, presumably, dealt in a procedure before or at
> the time of the traditional oath of fair contest (first day),
> and the anouncement of the competitors (second day). The
> Foot-race itself taking place on the 4th day, according to
> F.A.Wright.
Very informative, John. How does it help us?
>
> 2) On related issues and Herodotos:
> - He asked what account might exist to confirm/corroborate to
> the Judges the story of one's Herakleid/Peloponnesian
> descent, as told to the Judges of the games of Herakles in
> the very Peloponnesos. And I found that 'cute'.
We have already seen that you find everything 'cute,' John.
Why don't you illuminate us with some evidence. So far
I have seen just blabbering.
> - He skipped the official Herakleid tradition of the Macedonian
> Royals by jumping from the late 5th and early 4th century BC,
> to the hypotheses articulated on the 2nd century CE.
> That was 'cute' also! :-)
I'll let Wilken answer:
and it was only when by a bold fiction he traced back the pedigree
of his house, the Argeadae, to the Haraclid Temenus of Argos, that
he was admitted as a competitor. Since then the kings of Macedon
passed with the Greeks as Hellenes, and as descendants of Heracles;
but, as before, so afterwards, the people were regarded as barbarians
- even by Isocrates in his ‘Philip’
> - His position that the "Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedo-
> nians as Greek", once confronted with the information that
> Herodotos himself was Dorian, evolved into "Does he directly
> say the 'Macedonians were Dorians'?".
You're funny, John. Instead of providing us evidence that the
Macedonians were, or considered themselves, Dorians, you keep
telling us that Herodotus was Dorian. Why don't you tell us
why didn't Alex I just say at the Olymics "I'm Dorian!"
> When, exposed to passages 1.56 and (mainly) 8.43 -where the
> Dorian and Macedonian are mentioned as one nation- he went
> with the alternative (yet ingenious interpretion) that some
> Pelopponnesians such as the Spartans or the Corintians were
> Macedonians ! :-)
Pure comedy. You totally misinterpret the text, John. Why
don't you give us ONE historian who will interpret the text
the way you do.
> Date: May/19/1997:
> > > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian
> > > fleet. From Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedaemo-
> > > nians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the same
> > > number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with fifteen;
> > > the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians with five; and
> > > the Hermionians with three. These were Dorians and
> > > Macedonians all of
> >
> > Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
> """""""""""" """"""""""""""""
> :-)
Then prove I'm wrong, John, by giving us ONE historian that
supports your view on the text.
>
> On Demosthenes (whom he interjected on his own under the erroneous
> impression he may have been another Dorian):
More comedy. I have never said Demosthenes was a Dorian. What I have
said is that he knew who the Dorians were and he certainly didn't
include
the Macedonians in them.
> - He unreservedly views the Athenian as "the most famous orator
> of all times". (That is: "all times".)
I'm just repeating what I have read many times.
> - However, he thinks his orations are taught badly in Greece,
> but he hasn't actually seen it; yet he "just dies to see" it.
> I sort of told him we don't want casualties, and to knock
> wood.
Point is, dear John, that pGreece is a totalitarian country so
anything contradicting official policy is suppressed.
> - He acknowledges that: "Demostehens was biased? Of course he
> was."
Of course he was. He was a Greek patriot and saw through Macedonian
designs. He was right. Macedonia did enslave Greece, as Arrian puts it.
> - Yet, he still places his unwavering trust on him. He wonders
> about Demosthenes' prejudice: "How does that change what he
> say?"
Exactly. Demostenes was biased and that doesn't change one bit
what he said. Read what the other, un-biased, historians say.
Exactly the same thing: Macedonians were not considered Greeks.
> The answer, of cource, is that it doesn't change what has
> been said. The evidence of his prejudice though should affect
> our evaluation of the testimony.
As you were capable of evaluating enything. We have no evidence
on that so far.
> - Mangovski sticks to the position "True yet his words clearly
> distinguish between Greeks and non-Greeks." And that is
> coupled with "If Demosthens misinformed the public it
> would've been his end. On the contrary, he INFORMED the
> public."
That inludes all of us.
> ...And... we all know the results of the well-informed, well-
> prepared and calculated Athenian actions back then! :-)
> - Somehow Mangovski rejects Demosthenes' Aischinean reference
> on Philip (i.e., that Philip was considered "the most
> Hellenic of all men"; On the Embassy 307-8), as evidence of
> two different views...
> But by now such things are "peanuts"!
Considered by whom?
>
> 3) Other:
> - He claims extensive contacts of Macedon with S.Greece since
> the time of Peisistratos, but seems to make too much out of
> Athens.
And you too little. What a lousy Greek you are.
> - He confuses the small Dorian tetrapolis in central Greece,
> that sat on the Amphictionic Council, with the whole Dorian
> world.
> This again illustrates the necessity to differentiate
> appellations between groups -whenever possible- to avoid
> creating confusion among the general public.
The only confused one here is you John. Unless you want to claim that
the confused are Wilken, Borza, Badian, Hammon etc
> This is something that also applies on Mangovski's ignorant
> and confusing 'motto' about the ancient Macedonians:
> "They Macedonians, we Macedonians". [May/11/97]
How does that influence our discussion?
>
> 4) Overall:
> - He still insists on the existence of unspecified evidence
> that the ancient Macedonians did not consider THEMselves
> Greek.
Unspecified?
Something like:
Since then the kings of Macedon passed with the Greeks as Hellenes
, and as descendants of Heracles; but, as before, so afterwards,
the people were regarded as barbarians - even by Isocrates in his
‘Philip’
> - He continues adopting a generalizing, vague expression that
> Macedonians were not consider Greeks back then; although,
> Hesiod, Herodotos, Hellanikos, Thucydides, [pseudo] Kalli-
> sthenes, Plutarch, the speaches in Polybios and Livy and
> Arrian, Justin, and others, have left us evidence to the
> contrary.
OK, let's discuss one by one. Otherwise we're gonna be here until
the end of time. One evidence per post, supported by historians.
>
> Why? Whom can he convince?
You?
Angelos
In article <338A26...@gate.net>, Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
>> 1) On the issue of Alexander I's participation in some Greek
>> Olympics:
>> - Mangovski merely cut down on claiming that Alexander I was
>> rejected.
>
>What that means? Here it is:
>
>Hammond:
>We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games
> c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings,
> were considered not to be Greeks.
oh well here is some more stuff for you
Various Ancient Quotes about the Greekness of Macedonia
From the Macedonia FAQ at http://www.abest.com/~angelos/macfaq.html
Here is but a thimblefull of quotes form Ancient Texts about
Macedonia and how its inhabitants were perceived in the old world,
of course it is not a surprise to inquiring minds, but it may be a
shock to people that were brought up in a totalitarian regime like
the one in FYROM.
______________________________________________________________
"And she (Thyia, sister of Hellen) conceived and
bare to Zeus who delights in the thunderolt two
sons, Magnes and Makedon, rejoicing in horses, who
dwell round about Pieria and Olympos."
(Hesiod, Catalogues of Women, fr.3)
Which means that:
"From the daughter of Deucalion sprang Magnes
and Macedon, ancestors of the Magnesians and
Macedonians, who are thus represented as
cousins of the true Hellenic stock."
(G.P.Goold, Hesiod-Homeric Hymns-Homerica
(London: The Loeb Classical Library, 1936
-1995 reprint), p.xxii)
"...the Hellenic nation... settled about Pindos
under the name Makednon." (Herodotos 1.56)
"In all there were about three thousand Hellenic
heavy infantry, accompanied by all the Macedonian
cavalry with the Chalcidians (also Hellenes), near
one thousand strong, BESIDES an immense crowd of
barbarians (i.e., non-Hellenes)."
(Thukydides 4.124)
"...consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the
founder of your race,..."
(Isokrates, To Philip 127)
"...at the congress of the Lakedaimonian allies and
the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas (the king of
Macedonia), the father of Philip, being entitled to
a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote
was absolutely under his control, HE joined the
OTHER Hellenes in voting..."
(Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
"Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia)
...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as
one who with but the slenderest resources to
support his claim to a throne won for himself the
greatest empire AMONG the Hellenes, while the
growth of his position was not due so much to his
prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality
in diplomacy."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.95.1-2)
"In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the
KINSMEN Macedonians and their ruler, Philip, about
the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom
of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an
alien people (Romans), ...but now if you invite
them do not you see that you invite them against
your ownself and the whole of Hellas. ...And does
it worth to ally with the barbarians (i.e., the
non-Hellenes) against the Epeirotans, the Achaians,
the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of the
Aitolians who are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimo-
nians it is good to remember your ancestors,...
be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves
WITH the Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most
influential amongst yourselves oppose that then
stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.
(Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
skos, the representative of Akarnania)
Above provided by gon...@her.forthnet.gr
__________________________________________________________________________
"He (Teleutias, the brother of the Spartan king
Agesilaos) dispached envoys to Amyntas, and
asked him to hire mercenaries and gain the
alliance of the neighboring kings through the
payment of money, if he wished to recover his
rule." (Xenophon, Hellenika 5.38)
"After Amyntas had been defeated by the Illyrians
and forced to pay tribute to his conquerors, the
Illyrians, who had taken Philip, the youngest
son of Amyntas, as a hostage, placed him in the
care of the Thebans."
(Diodoros of Sicily, 16.2.2)
"Amyntas undertook difficult campaigns against
the Illyrians and the Olynthians. Moreover
Amyntas would have fallen victim to the
treachery of his wife Eurydice... had their
daughter not divulged her mother's liaison and
criminal intentions."
(Justin's epitome of Pompeius Tro-
gus' Universal History 7.4.6-7)
"...at the congress of the Lacedaimonian allies
and the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas, the
father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was
represented by a delegate whose vote was abso-
lutely under his control, HE joined the OTHER
Hellenes in voting..."
(Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip
(II of Macedonia) included in the procession
statues of the TWELVE GODS wrought with great
artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of
wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along
with these was conducted a thirteenth statue,
suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so
that the king exhibited himself enthroned among
the TWELVE GODS. Every seat in the theater was
taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak
and by his express orders his bodyguard held
away from him and followed only at a distance,
since he wanted to show publicly that he was
protected by the goodwill of ALL THE HELLENES,
and had no need of a guard of spearmen."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.92.5-93.2)
"When he (Alexander the Great) arrived at Ilion
he sacrificed to ATHENA and offered libations to
the Heroes." (Plutarchos, Alexander 15)
"Alexander (the Great)... after talking to the
Thessalians and the other Hellenes,... grabbed
his spear with his left hand, shifted his right
hand to pray to the gods, as Kallisthenes
reports, wishing, if he is indeed a SON of ZEUS
that they SUPPORT the HELLENES. Aristandros,
the priest..." (Plutarchos, Alexander 33)
"There is a MACEDONIAN holiday devoted to DIONY-
SOS, to whom Alexander sacrificed every year.
But out of negligence, it is said, he sacri-
ficed to the DIOSKOUROI first for he had
scheduled the sacrifice to the Dioskouroi
previously. Well into the celebrations (for
Alexander had introduced BARBARIAN elements
(i.e., non-Hellenic) in the festivity), there
was talk about the Dioskouroi... So several
soothsayers attributed the affair to the wrath
of Dionysos. And Alexander, persuaded in the end
by the Companions (i.e., the Macedonian nobles),
did eat and did take some care of himself. And
then he carried the sacrifice to Dionysos,
for he, too, wished to attribute the disaster to
the wrath of the god..."
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander 4.8.1-9.5)
"This is a sworn treaty made between us, Hannibal
the general, Mago, Myrkan, Barmokar and all
other Carthaginian senators present with him,
and all Carthaginians serving under him, on the
one side, and Xenophanes the Athenian, son of
Kleomachos, the envoy whom King Philip, son of
Demetrios, sent to us on behalf of himself, and
the Macedonians and allies, on the other side.
`In the presence of ZEUS, HERA and APOLLO; in
the presence of the Genius of Carthage; ...and
in the presence of all the gods who possess
Carthage; and in the presence of ALL THE GODS
who possess Macedonia AND THE REST OF HELLAS;
and in the presence of all the gods of the army
who preside over this oath. Thus said Hannibal
the general and all the Carthaginian senators
along with him and the Carthaginian soldiers:
...That King Philip and the Macedonians AND the
REST OF THE HELLENES who are their allies shall
protect the Carthaginians,... King Philip and
the Macedonians AND the OTHER HELLENES who are
their allies shall be protected and guarded by
the Carthaginians..."
(Polybios 7.9.1-7; Treaty of alliance
between king Philip V of Macedonia
and Hannibal)
Above Provided by A.Romanos
__________________________________________________________________________
These next few quotes may reflect the Greek views during the Hellenistic
era and in later antiquity of the Macedonian 'brethren'. There are
many more in the same spirit. The purpose here is not to explore
all ancient literature nor to argue historical events, but to make
a point with respect to these Greek perceptions.
The material is used with the permission of its original compiler
and may have been used in the newsgroups before.
__________________________________________________________________________
"After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,
and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach
them the HELLENIC DIALECT,..."
[Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1]
"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with
their constant campaigns. ...The hooves of the horses had
been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were
wearing out, and the HELLENIC CLOTHING was quite gone. They
had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
[Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2]
"...so said the military leaders to the camps: `We have made
enough war in Persia and conquered Dareios who claimed
taxes from the Hellenes, but what are we accomplishing by
marching against the Indians, in scary lands and doing
things IMPROPER FROM HELLAS? If Alexandros has become full
of himself and wishes to be a warrior, and subjugate
barbarian peoples why do we follow him? Let him move on
alone and engage in wars. Having heard these Alexander
separated the Persian host from the MACEDONIANS AND THE
OTHER HELLENES and addressed them..."
[`Pseudo-Kallisthenes' 3.1.2-4]
"But he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes';
that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine
barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and
civilize every every continent, to search out the uttermost
parts of land and sea, to push THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA to
the farthest Ocean, AND to diseminate and shower the
BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I
should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle
power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But
as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles,
and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dio-
nysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and
DESIRE that VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India
and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage
mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos...' "
[Plutarchos, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332 a-b]
"In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the MACEDONIANS,
peoples of YOUR OWN RACE, and Philippos, their commander,
for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the
Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people
, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians,
to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the
Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
in fact WITH almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of
the Aitolians who are a wicked nation... ...SO LAKEDAIMO-
NIANS it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid
of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the Achaians
and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are
opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not
side with the unjust.
[Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
skos, the representative of Akarnania]
--
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Angelos Karageorgiou ang...@incredible.com
Incredible Networks, we perform www/(inter/intra/extra)net miracles daily!
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski (ma...@gate.net) wrote today:
\
> > - For a moment he claimed we knew ALL the participants in THAT
> > race. Presumably he was misinformed on the extend of Julius
> > Africanus' extanct list, for nothing much was procured.
>
> According to Borza (In the Shadow of Olympus, p.112) Alex I name
> does no appear in the victor lists.
Irrelevant. You said we knew all the participants. I asked you to share
the names with us. You did not.
The list of victors (one name per race) shows only that: one name, the
victor's
If the story is true we know that Alexander did not win. He tied. Only
one name was entered in the list: The other fellow's.
Go by what you had originally argued, or admit you were wrong
Mangovski.
[I will come back on Friday and read your response and reply to the
rest of the articles.]
Galina
unclear.
> "...the Hellenic nation... settled about Pindos
> under the name Makednon." (Herodotos 1.56)
>
> "In all there were about three thousand Hellenic
> heavy infantry, accompanied by all the Macedonian
> cavalry with the Chalcidians (also Hellenes), near
> one thousand strong, BESIDES an immense crowd of
> barbarians (i.e., non-Hellenes)."
> (Thukydides 4.124)
>
key words: accompanied by
other key words : Macedonian cavalry....besides an immense crowd of
barbarians.
> "...consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the
> founder of your race,..."
> (Isokrates, To Philip 127)
>
key words : consider = feel free to
other key words: as did (that other guy self allowed to feel free)your
old man, identified as founding father of race, race being a determinate
outside the norm.
> "...at the congress of the Lakedaimonian allies and
> the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas (the king of
> Macedonia), the father of Philip, being entitled to
> a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote
> was absolutely under his control, HE joined the
> OTHER Hellenes in voting..."
> (Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
>
Philip was "entitled", i.e. allowed, a seat. Honorary Hellene.
> "Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia)
> ...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as
> one who with but the slenderest resources to
> support his claim to a throne won for himself the
> greatest empire AMONG the Hellenes, while the
> growth of his position was not due so much to his
> prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality
> in diplomacy."
> (Diodoros of Sicily 16.95.1-2)
>
keyword = among =Between and among, in the place of, not part of
> "In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the
> KINSMEN Macedonians and their ruler, Philip, about
> the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom
> of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an
> alien people (Romans), ...but now if you invite
> them do not you see that you invite them against
> your ownself and the whole of Hellas. ...And does
> it worth to ally with the barbarians (i.e., the
> non-Hellenes) against the Epeirotans, the Achaians,
> the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
> almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of the
> Aitolians who are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimo-
> nians it is good to remember your ancestors,...
> be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves
> WITH the Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most
> influential amongst yourselves oppose that then
> stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.
> (Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
> skos, the representative of Akarnania)
>
keywords: Achaians and their kinsmen, Macedonians
I am thinking fondly upon Cosmas Aitolos after reading this passage.
Also depends totally on how kinship is to be regarded in this passage.
> Above provided by gon...@her.forthnet.gr
> __________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "He (Teleutias, the brother of the Spartan king
> Agesilaos) dispached envoys to Amyntas, and
> asked him to hire mercenaries and gain the
> alliance of the neighboring kings through the
> payment of money, if he wished to recover his
> rule." (Xenophon, Hellenika 5.38)
>
Neighboring kings does not speak to nationalities, mercenaries may.
> "After Amyntas had been defeated by the Illyrians
> and forced to pay tribute to his conquerors, the
> Illyrians, who had taken Philip, the youngest
> son of Amyntas, as a hostage, placed him in the
> care of the Thebans."
> (Diodoros of Sicily, 16.2.2)
>
Poor boy was shifted from one group of foreigners to the next. Amazing
he kept his sanity after that.
> "Amyntas undertook difficult campaigns against
> the Illyrians and the Olynthians. Moreover
> Amyntas would have fallen victim to the
> treachery of his wife Eurydice... had their
> daughter not divulged her mother's liaison and
> criminal intentions."
> (Justin's epitome of Pompeius Tro-
> gus' Universal History 7.4.6-7)
> and the point of this passage is to attempt to show....what?
> "...at the congress of the Lacedaimonian allies
> and the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas, the
> father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was
> represented by a delegate whose vote was abso-
> lutely under his control, HE joined the OTHER
> Hellenes in voting..."
> (Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
>
THe allies......AND the others (entitled to a seat, as if it had been
gifted) AGAIN
> "Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip
> (II of Macedonia) included in the procession
> statues of the TWELVE GODS wrought with great
> artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of
> wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along
> with these was conducted a thirteenth statue,
> suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so
> that the king exhibited himself enthroned among
> the TWELVE GODS. Every seat in the theater was
> taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak
> and by his express orders his bodyguard held
> away from him and followed only at a distance,
> since he wanted to show publicly that he was
> protected by the goodwill of ALL THE HELLENES,
> and had no need of a guard of spearmen."
> (Diodoros of Sicily 16.92.5-93.2)
>
There is nothing like a whole nation of slavering Greeks , rivals any
boeyguard, eh?
> "When he (Alexander the Great) arrived at Ilion
> he sacrificed to ATHENA and offered libations to
> the Heroes." (Plutarchos, Alexander 15)
>
Well, soe people are Trekkies and some are Buddhists and some even take
to a Klingon lifestyle. Popular culture never ceases to amaze.
> "Alexander (the Great)... after talking to the
> Thessalians and the other Hellenes,... grabbed
> his spear with his left hand, shifted his right
> hand to pray to the gods, as Kallisthenes
> reports, wishing, if he is indeed a SON of ZEUS
> that they SUPPORT the HELLENES. Aristandros,
> the priest..." (Plutarchos, Alexander 33)
>
THe consummate politician, Alexander
> "There is a MACEDONIAN holiday devoted to DIONY-
> SOS, to whom Alexander sacrificed every year.
> But out of negligence, it is said, he sacri-
> ficed to the DIOSKOUROI first for he had
> scheduled the sacrifice to the Dioskouroi
> previously. Well into the celebrations (for
> Alexander had introduced BARBARIAN elements
> (i.e., non-Hellenic) in the festivity), there
> was talk about the Dioskouroi... So several
> soothsayers attributed the affair to the wrath
> of Dionysos. And Alexander, persuaded in the end
> by the Companions (i.e., the Macedonian nobles),
> did eat and did take some care of himself. And
> then he carried the sacrifice to Dionysos,
> for he, too, wished to attribute the disaster to
> the wrath of the god..."
> (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander 4.8.1-9.5)
>
And the point was? Cult of Dionysios was pretty well established
thoroughout Macedonia and it was no wonder. Cool cult.
G: key words : first there is MACEDONIA and then there is THE REST
> These next few quotes may reflect the Greek views during the Hellenistic
> era and in later antiquity of the Macedonian 'brethren'. There are
> many more in the same spirit. The purpose here is not to explore
> all ancient literature nor to argue historical events, but to make
> a point with respect to these Greek perceptions.
> The material is used with the permission of its original compiler
> and may have been used in the newsgroups before.
__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,
> and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach
> them the HELLENIC DIALECT,..."
> [Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1]
>
key word: They had to learn that particular type of Greek. A foreign
language and a dialect of one as well.
> "Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with
> their constant campaigns. ...The hooves of the horses had
> been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were
> wearing out, and the HELLENIC CLOTHING was quite gone. They
> had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
> [Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2]
>
because they used to wearing BARBARIAN (superior in longevity ,
obviously) clothing.
> "...so said the military leaders to the camps: `We have made
> enough war in Persia and conquered Dareios who claimed
> taxes from the Hellenes, but what are we accomplishing by
> marching against the Indians, in scary lands and doing
> things IMPROPER FROM HELLAS? If Alexandros has become full
> of himself and wishes to be a warrior, and subjugate
> barbarian peoples why do we follow him? Let him move on
> alone and engage in wars. Having heard these Alexander
> separated the Persian host from the MACEDONIANS AND THE
> OTHER HELLENES and addressed them..."
> [`Pseudo-Kallisthenes' 3.1.2-4]
>
#1 group: Macedonians
#2 group: Hellenes
> "But he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes';
> that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine
> barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and
> civilize every every continent, to search out the uttermost
> parts of land and sea, to push THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA to
> the farthest Ocean, AND to diseminate and shower the
> BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I
> should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle
> power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But
> as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles,
> and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dio-
> nysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and
> DESIRE that VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India
> and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage
> mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos...' "
> [Plutarchos, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332 a-b]
>
key word: AND the blessings of hellenic, etc.
> "In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the MACEDONIANS,
> peoples of YOUR OWN RACE, and Philippos, their commander,
> for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the
> Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people
> , ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians,
> to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the
> Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
> in fact WITH almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of
> the Aitolians who are a wicked nation... ...SO LAKEDAIMO-
> NIANS it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid
> of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the Achaians
> and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are
> opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not
> side with the unjust.
> [Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
> skos, the representative of Akarnania]
>
> --SAME QUOTE AS ABOVE
John Prodromidis
Galina <sp...@erols.com> wrote on May/25/1997:
>
> Angelos wrote:
\
> > "From the daughter of Deucalion sprang Magnes
> > and Macedon, ancestors of the Magnesians and
> > Macedonians, who are thus represented as
> > cousins of the true Hellenic stock."
> > (G.P.Goold, Hesiod-Homeric Hymns-Homerica
> > (London: The Loeb Classical Library, 1936
> > -1995 reprint), p.xxii)
>
> key word and precept: cousins. kissing cousins, relations, how
> related unclear.
To the layman perhaps...
H.J.Rose, however, suggests this is early ethnological theory.
But didn't we three (you, Slavko & me) discuss it on Jan/25-
Feb/13?
> > "...the Hellenic nation... settled about Pindos
> > under the name Makednon." (Herodotos 1.56)
> >
> > "In all there were about three thousand Hellenic
> > heavy infantry, accompanied by all the Macedonian
> > cavalry with the Chalcidians (also Hellenes), near
> > one thousand strong, BESIDES an immense crowd of
> > barbarians (i.e., non-Hellenes)."
> > (Thukydides 4.124)
>
> key words: accompanied by other key words : Macedonian
> cavalry....besides an immense crowd of barbarians.
The Greek infantry & cavalry are separated from the Barbarians
(non-Greeks).
Thucydides seems to have another clear separation also in:
"when night came on the Macedonians and the mass of the
barbarians immediately took fright," <4.125.1>
> > "...consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the
> > founder of your race,..."
> > (Isokrates, To Philip 127)
>
> key words : consider = feel free to
> other key words: as did (that other guy self allowed to feel
> free) your old man, identified as founding father of race, race
> being a determinate outside the norm.
As the author himself says, Philip's race was a Greek one, that
of the descendants of Herakles (# 115).
> > "...at the congress of the Lakedaimonian allies and
> > the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas (the king of
> > Macedonia), the father of Philip, being entitled to
> > a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote
> > was absolutely under his control, HE joined the
> > OTHER Hellenes in voting..."
> > (Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
>
> Philip was "entitled", i.e. allowed, a seat. Honorary Hellene.
Crap again. Amyntas was entitled and he joined the OTHER Hellenes.
This makes him one.
> > "Such was the end of Philip (II, king of Macedonia)
> > ...He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as
> > one who with but the slenderest resources to
> > support his claim to a throne won for himself the
> > greatest empire AMONG the Hellenes, while the
> > growth of his position was not due so much to his
> > prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality
> > in diplomacy."
> > (Diodoros of Sicily 16.95.1-2)
>
> keyword = among =Between and among, in the place of, not part of
Translated as "in the Greek world" by C. Bradford Welles in the
Loeb edition of 1963, vol.8, p.103.
> > "In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the
> > KINSMEN Macedonians and their ruler, Philip, about
> > the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom
> > of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an
> > alien people (Romans), ...but now if you invite
> > them do not you see that you invite them against
> > your ownself and the whole of Hellas. ...And does
> > it worth to ally with the barbarians (i.e., the
> > non-Hellenes) against the Epeirotans, the Achaians,
> > the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
> > almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of the
> > Aitolians who are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimo-
> > nians it is good to remember your ancestors,...
> > be afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves
> > WITH the Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most
> > influential amongst yourselves oppose that then
> > stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.
> > (Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
> > skos, the representative of Akarnania)
>
> keywords: Achaians and their kinsmen, Macedonians
Finally one has seen the light and made the elementary connection.
The Achaians are, of course, an old Greek tribe (the people of
Polybios).
> I am thinking fondly upon Cosmas Aitolos after reading this
> passage.
Then you must be one of the staunchest proponents of Greek
continuity over the last 2000 yrs.
>
> Also depends totally on how kinship is to be regarded in this
> passage.
Very simple: groups of Greeks.
> > Above provided by gon...@her.forthnet.gr
> >
> > "He (Teleutias, the brother of the Spartan king
> > Agesilaos) dispached envoys to Amyntas, and
> > asked him to hire mercenaries and gain the
> > alliance of the neighboring kings through the
> > payment of money, if he wished to recover his
> > rule." (Xenophon, Hellenika 5.38)
>
> Neighboring kings does not speak to nationalities, mercenaries
> may.
That is the least of the problems here.
The piece is not relevant to the issue of nationality at all.
> > "After Amyntas had been defeated by the Illyrians
> > and forced to pay tribute to his conquerors, the
> > Illyrians, who had taken Philip, the youngest
> > son of Amyntas, as a hostage, placed him in the
> > care of the Thebans."
> > (Diodoros of Sicily, 16.2.2)
>
> Poor boy was shifted from one group of foreigners to the next.
> Amazing he kept his sanity after that.
That is irrelevant too (exceptionally I don't mean Galina's
comment).
> > "Amyntas undertook difficult campaigns against
> > the Illyrians and the Olynthians. Moreover
> > Amyntas would have fallen victim to the
> > treachery of his wife Eurydice... had their
> > daughter not divulged her mother's liaison and
> > criminal intentions."
> > (Justin's epitome of Pompeius Tro-
> > gus' Universal History 7.4.6-7)
>
> and the point of this passage is to attempt to show....what?
I don't have a clue. These are things from old discussions that
have no connection to the issue at hand.
> > "...at the congress of the Lacedaimonian allies
> > and the OTHER Hellenes, in which Amyntas, the
> > father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was
> > represented by a delegate whose vote was abso-
> > lutely under his control, HE joined the OTHER
> > Hellenes in voting..."
> > (Aishines, On the Embassy 32)
>
> THe allies......AND the others (entitled to a seat, as if it
> had been gifted) AGAIN
This is stressed on purpose I think, the point being: Is
Macedonia a member of the treaty or not?
> > "Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip
> > (II of Macedonia) included in the procession
> > statues of the TWELVE GODS wrought with great
> > artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of
> > wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along
> > with these was conducted a thirteenth statue,
> > suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so
> > that the king exhibited himself enthroned among
> > the TWELVE GODS. Every seat in the theater was
> > taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak
> > and by his express orders his bodyguard held
> > away from him and followed only at a distance,
> > since he wanted to show publicly that he was
> > protected by the goodwill of ALL THE HELLENES,
> > and had no need of a guard of spearmen."
> > (Diodoros of Sicily 16.92.5-93.2)
>
> There is nothing like a whole nation of slavering Greeks ,
> rivals any boeyguard, eh?
Presumably Philip was demonstrating being appreciated by the
Greek city-states in that joyous event; next moment he was laying
dead, assassinated by Pausanias the Orestian for a personal affair
(according to the same source).
> > "When he (Alexander the Great) arrived at Ilion
> > he sacrificed to ATHENA and offered libations to
> > the Heroes." (Plutarchos, Alexander 15)
>
> Well, soe people are Trekkies and some are Buddhists and some
> even take to a Klingon lifestyle. Popular culture never ceases
> to amaze.
That approximates the relevancy of this piece here as well. :-)
> > "Alexander (the Great)... after talking to the
> > Thessalians and the other Hellenes,... grabbed
> > his spear with his left hand, shifted his right
> > hand to pray to the gods, as Kallisthenes
> > reports, wishing, if he is indeed a SON of ZEUS
> > that they SUPPORT the HELLENES. Aristandros,
> > the priest..." (Plutarchos, Alexander 33)
>
> THe consummate politician, Alexander
This has some relevance to the question of religion, but
-again- the whole thing seems as a compilation of heterogeneous
(though Macedonian) items.
The next item cited also relates to Macedonian religion:
> >
> > "There is a MACEDONIAN holiday devoted to DIONY-
> > SOS, to whom Alexander sacrificed every year.
> > But out of negligence, it is said, he sacri-
> > ficed to the DIOSKOUROI first for he had
> > scheduled the sacrifice to the Dioskouroi
> > previously. Well into the celebrations (for
> > Alexander had introduced BARBARIAN elements
> > (i.e., non-Hellenic) in the festivity), there
> > was talk about the Dioskouroi... So several
> > soothsayers attributed the affair to the wrath
> > of Dionysos. And Alexander, persuaded in the end
> > by the Companions (i.e., the Macedonian nobles),
> > did eat and did take some care of himself. And
> > then he carried the sacrifice to Dionysos,
> > for he, too, wished to attribute the disaster to
> > the wrath of the god..."
> > (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander 4.8.1-9.5)
>
> And the point was? Cult of Dionysios was pretty well
> established thoroughout Macedonia and it was no wonder. Cool
> cult.
The point is that the Macedonians did not like the introduction
of non-Greek elements in their festivity.
Which makes Macedonia "part" of the whole: i.e., Hellas. :-)
> > These next few quotes may reflect the Greek views during the
> > Hellenistic era and in later antiquity of the Macedonian
> > 'brethren'. There are many more in the same spirit. The
> > purpose here is not to explore all ancient literature nor to
> > argue historical events, but to make a point with respect to
> > these Greek perceptions.
> > The material is used with the permission of its original
> > compiler and may have been used in the newsgroups before.
>
> > "After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,
> > and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach
> > them the HELLENIC DIALECT,..."
> > [Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1]
>
> key word: They had to learn that particular type of Greek. A
> foreign language and a dialect of one as well.
I remember posting this.
Dareios, of course, is the Persian king. His family was learning
Greek: what Alexander and the rest were speaking.
> > "Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with
> > their constant campaigns. ...The hooves of the horses had
> > been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were
> > wearing out, and the HELLENIC CLOTHING was quite gone. They
> > had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
> > [Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2]
>
> because they used to wearing BARBARIAN (superior in longevity ,
> obviously) clothing.
Because they were away from the Aegean for so long, their own
original clothing (Greek) had wore out. Having said a thing about
language a few lines above, now about clothes, next thing is...
> > "...so said the military leaders to the camps: `We have made
> > enough war in Persia and conquered Dareios who claimed
> > taxes from the Hellenes, but what are we accomplishing by
> > marching against the Indians, in scary lands and doing
> > things IMPROPER FOR HELLAS? If Alexandros has become full
> > of himself and wishes to be a warrior, and subjugate
> > barbarian peoples why do we follow him? Let him move on
> > alone and engage in wars. Having heard these Alexander
> > separated the Persian host from the MACEDONIANS AND THE
> > OTHER HELLENES and addressed them..."
> > [`Pseudo-Kallisthenes' 3.1.2-4]
>
> #1 group: Macedonians
> #2 group: Hellenes
... right! The people: Macedonians and the OTHER Hellenes.
Thus Macedonians are perceived as Hellenes.
Another blow to Mangovsko-Grezlovskian theories, but who counts?
Psssiiit... 245 to 0
> > "But he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be
> > Diogenes'; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose
> > to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to
> > traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the
> > uttermost parts of land and sea, to push THE BOUNDS OF
> > MACEDONIA to the farthest Ocean, AND to disseminate and
> > shower the BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over
> > every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in
> > the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the
> > frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Dioge-
> > nes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and
> > follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and
> > progenitor of my family, and DESIRE that VICTORIOUS
> > HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India and revive the memory
> > of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes
> > beyond the Kaukasos...' "
> > [Plutarchos, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332 a-b]
>
> key word: AND the blessings of hellenic, etc.
Also:
Extend the BOUNDS of MACEDONIA so that VICTORIOUS HELLENES ...
> > "In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the MACEDONIANS,
> > peoples of YOUR OWN RACE, and Philippos, their commander,
> > for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the
> > Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people
> > ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians,
> > to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the
> > Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians,
> > in fact WITH almost ALL THE HELLENES with the exception of
> > the Aitolians who are a wicked nation... ...SO LAKEDAIMO-
> > NIANS it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid
> > of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the Achaians
> > and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are
> > opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not
> > side with the unjust.
> > [Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lyki-
> > skos, the representative of Akarnania]
> >
> > --SAME QUOTE AS ABOVE
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> wrote in May/26/1997:
>
> John Prodromidis wrote:
> >
> > To the question:
> >
> > So what did we get so far from the replay of the standard
> > issues, in the last few days with Slavko Mangovski
> > <ma...@gate.net>?
> >
> > The answer is: Very little other than entertainment from
> > Slavko.
>
> I'm so glad real history is entertaining to you, John.
Associating yourself with real history is quite a euphemism
Mangovski. Part of the "entertainment" ?
> That makes me hope that you'll be able to learn something sooner
> or later. To entertain you further I'll try to use mainstream
> science in answering your statements:
So in your euphemistic jargon I should expect (what?): Outdated
or peripheral pieces or your digested versions!
:-)
Here is what I will do:
Since I find several responses of weak to doubtful relevance if
not somewhat contradictory (which -in all fairness- can happen
when tackling long documents) I will submit them to you for
clarifications (Section A):
SECTION A
#########
> >
> > 1) On the issue of Alexander I's participation in some Greek
> > Olympics:
> > - Mangovski merely cut down on claiming that Alexander I
> > was rejected.
>
> What that means? Here it is:
>
> Hammond:
> We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games
> c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their
> kings, were considered not to be Greeks.
Nothing about Alexander's rejection here. Perhaps you may want to
think of another term.
Query: Isn't this piece from a work published in 1989. If agree-
able towards Hammond why not consider his late 1996 review of the
issue?
"His claim to be a Temenid, descended from Heracles
and related to the royal house of Argos in the
Peloponnese, was recognized at Olympia;" <OCD, p.904>
\
> > - For a moment he claimed we knew ALL the participants in
> > THAT race. Presumably he was misinformed on the extend
> > of Julius Africanus' extant list, for nothing much was
> > procured.
>
> According to Borza (In the Shadow of Olympus, p.112) Alex I name
> does no appear in the victor lists.
Profoundly irrelevant in my opinion. What is the relevance to your
original argument (May 20-21)?
me: No, Mr.Mangovski. Don't jump ahead! According to the
account he was simply "investigated". We do not know
who the other athletes were.
you: I'm sure we do. There is a preserved list of the
partecipants and curisouly Alexander I is not on it.
me: I say this is incorrect. If you think otherwise post
all the relevant information: the participants in the
list, origin, ranking in the race,
So:
If you insist you are right, provide us with the participants,
Mangovski. You said we knew them all. I've asked you to share
their names with us. I am afraid that has not been accomplished
yet.
The list of victors (one name per race) that you now submit
shows only that: one name, the victor's. We cannot say the least
of who the other participants were. Your original argument relied
on this assumption. Would you be willing to put it aside as a
baseless contention?
\
> > When, exposed to passages 1.56 and (mainly) 8.43 -where the
> > Dorian and Macedonian are mentioned as one nation- he went
> > with the alternative (yet ingenious interpretation) that
> > some Pelopponnesians such as the Spartans or the Corintians
> > were Macedonians ! :-)
>
> Pure comedy. You totally misinterpret the text, John.
We'll see...
> Why don't you give us ONE historian who will interpret the
> text the way you do.
Well, Mangovski, I am afraid this particular task will have to
fall on you. You'll see why:
> > Date: May/19/1997:
> > > > "Now these were the nations who composed the Grecian
> > > > fleet. From Peloponnese, the following - the Lacedae-
> > > > monians with sixteen ships; the Corinthians with the
> > > > same number as at Artemisium; the Sicyonians with
> > > > fifteen; the Epidaurians with ten; the Troezenians
> > > > with five; and the Hermionians with three. These were
> > > > Dorians and Macedonians all of
> > >
> > > Meaning some Dorians, some Macedonians.
> > """""""""""" """"""""""""""""
> > :-)
>
> Then prove I'm wrong, John, by giving us ONE historian that
> supports your view on the text.
Why even attempt to prove that the color "red" is "red"? I
may as well admit "infallible" Mangovski's view. :-)
As a result, we'll have a list of Peloponnesians which includes:
- some (say Lacedaemonians/Spartans, etc) who are MACEDONIANS, and
- some (say Corinthians, Sicyonians, etc) who are DORIANS.
or vice versa.
Do you see what do we have now? A Macedonian group of Mangovski's
choice whose Greekness cannot be
disputed.
That pretty much puts the issue to rest. Right Mangovski?
Or are not these your words: "some Dorians, some Macedonians"?
> > On Demosthenes (whom he interjected on his own under the
> > erroneous impression he may have been another Dorian):
>
> More comedy. I have never said Demosthenes was a Dorian.
Note what I wrote. If you wish to compare, from May/19/1997:
>
> Yet it seems that other Dorians DID NOT consider the
> Macedonians as Greek. Here's Demosthenes, you must
> have heard of him.
> What I have said is that he knew who the Dorians were and he
> certainly didn't include the Macedonians in them.
- OK. How is that evident?
- If so, what exactly would make Demosthenes reliable? Would such
an arrangement serve or impede his agenda/oratory?
Don't forget that by your own admission he was biased. His "truth"
was subordinate to oratory:
\
> > - He acknowledges that: "Demostehens was biased? Of course
> > he was."
>
> Of course he was. He was a Greek patriot and saw through
> Macedonian designs. He was right. Macedonia did enslave Greece,
> as Arrian puts it.
(And Thucydides has Athens in the same role... )
However, I am not going to deal with irresponsible phenomena of
"parthenogenesis" as is the case with the last little comment.
I want the full quote on this, from full stop to full stop, for
all in the forum to see, in Arrian's own uninterpreted words.
And...
This brings me to the issue of approach and handling "sources".
So I will bring the issue to your attention and await your
responses on all items and on the overall handling of sources
(Section B).
SECTION B
#########
\
> Wilken:
> When Alexander I of Macedon, who, though a vassal of Xerxes,
> had in the Persian War given many proofs of his sympathy with
> the Greek cause, desired to take part in the Olympic Games, to
> which only Hellenes had access, he was first refused as a
> barbarian
I want:
- The date of original publication to assess how up-to-date the
work is.
- A commitment that if you regard this work as a technical and
appropriate, unequivocal source for line X you will also accept
lines, say X+4 and X+8 of the same paragraph as complementary
and equally truthful or (in other words) of the same weight.
- Or, if not, a clear explanation why the author's judgment wavers
and fails and his credibility lapses `from line to line?
Fair and honest enough?
> > - He has been extremely silent in defending his original
> > position that the incident proves the non-Greeknes of
> > the Macedonian Royals and People "beyond any further
> > doubt".
>
> Just read the above passages, John.
Not to me pal, because I know both the surviving literature and
what the positions of Wilken and Hammond (whom you also quoted)
are. And if you go by it... your unwavering position should be
drastically revised and your model "defossilized". For example,
and as an indication of the scale of revision required here:
Wilken makes S.Greeks and Macedonians brethren and has the 5th
and 4th century Royals passed as Hellenes. So some things that
will have to go are your impressive dogmatic expressions such as
"the Macedonians were not Greeks Prodromidis" and contentions
about the Macedonians and their Royals "beyond any further doubt,"
"even in Alexander's time or later," and such crap.
\
> Borza:
> Badian shows that, until quite late, the Macedonians as people
> were excluded from panhellenic festivals in which only Greeks
> were permitted to partecipate, that the attempts of their kings
> to participate met with objections from the Greeks, that
> contemporary Greek literature offers numerous examples of Greek
> contempt for the Macedonians as barbarians, and that to the
> extent that Macedonian kings participated in panhellenic or
> bilateral arrangements with Greeks, they did so as individuals.
I want:
- Badian's exact words on the exclusion, objections, individual
participation... ALONG WITH a list of the sources cited, to
be compared with sources that may have not made it (for one
reason or another) in his work.
I'm not going to stand before a second phenomenon of partheno-
genesis here: A says he read B who sort of said he may have
read... etc. Moreover,
- If you are going to consider a work authored by Badian, and
consider his findings as serious, I require equal weight to be
attributed to the other findings he may have incorporated.
- If for some reason the later is deemed undesirable, a clear
explanation why the author's judgment wavers and his credibility
topples or suffers from page to page?
Fair and consistent enough?
\
> > - Yet, he still places his unwavering trust on him. He
> > wonders about Demosthenes' prejudice: "How does that
> > change what he say?"
>
> Exactly. Demostenes was biased and that doesn't change one bit
> what he said.
So since the bits did not change with time... they are still very
biased. Right?
> Read what the other, un-biased, historians say. Exactly the same
> thing: Macedonians were not considered Greeks.
Since you mentioned THEM... Do provide me with the full,
unedited and unabridged quotes of your recommended ancient
sources: the more "history"-oriented folk, and NOT orators that
had a score to settle with Macedonia or had other agendas.
> > The answer, of course, is that it doesn't change what has
> > been said. The evidence of his prejudice though should
> > affect our evaluation of the testimony.
>
> As you were capable of evaluating enything. We have no evidence
> on that so far.
Why project on others what you lack Mangovski?
BUT not to abandon this little issue for such side-remarks and
distracting exchange of pleasantries:
Do you agree, Mangovski, with the thesis that truth is every-
where subordinate to Rhetoric in the Demosthenean Corpus and thus
Demosthenes' pronouncements are not much of a true history?
Can you provide a unequivocal answer? And in case you dismiss
the above, might I ask why?
> > - Mangovski sticks to the position "True yet his words
> > clearly distinguish between Greeks and non-Greeks." And
> > that is coupled with "If Demosthens misinformed the public
> > it would've been his end. On the contrary, he INFORMED the
> > public."
>
> That inludes all of us.
>
> > ...And... we all know the results of the well-informed, well-
> > prepared and calculated Athenian actions back then! :-)
So do you think that the Athenian actions were well-informed,
well-prepared and calculated, Mangovski? And where do you base
that?
\
> > 3) Other:
> > - He claims extensive contacts of Macedon with S.Greece since
> > the time of Peisistratos, but seems to make too much out
> > of Athens.
>
> And you too little. What a lousy Greek you are.
Really? I simply do not generalize from the case of an "exiled"
Athenian, and I do not claim to know as much as you do!
However, since you argue otherwise please provide me with the
original evidence (i.e., ancient quotes of non-Athenian origin
taken from the literature, or inscriptions) that support you
position.
\
> >
> > 4) Overall:
> > - He still insists on the existence of unspecified evidence
> > that the ancient Macedonians did not consider THEMselves
> > Greek.
>
> Unspecified?
Yes. I haven't yet seen one bit. I want to know the name of the
Macedonian who said so, or at least his/her EXACT words. Can you
do that, Mangovski?
> Something like: Since then the kings of Macedon passed with the
> Greeks as Hellenes, and as descendants of Heracles; but, as
> before, so afterwards, the people were regarded as barbarians -
> even by Isocrates in his ‘Philip’
Even if true this would be irrelevant, for I asked something
else.
However, can I take it that it is your position, Mangovski, that
even in classical times the Royals (for all intends and purposes)
were passed as Greeks and perceived/acknowledged as descendants of
Herakles? Can I have a clear answer on that?
> > - He continues adopting a generalizing, vague expression
> > that Macedonians were not consider Greeks back then;
> > although, Hesiod, Herodotos, Hellanikos, Thucydides,
> > [pseudo] Kallisthenes, Plutarch, the speeches in Polybios
> > and Livy and Arrian, Justin, and others, have left us
> > evidence to the contrary.
>
> OK, let's discuss one by one. Otherwise we're gonna be here
> until the end of time. One evidence per post, supported by
> historians.
May I inquire what is wrong with the plain, unedited words,
printed, translated and provided in so many prestigious
publications?
I know you have their "words", I just saw a case the other day.
Come on Mangovski: post the exact words of the ancient authors
as they themselves said them and I will join you. Trust their
eloquence and their own words in expressing their very own views,
as their contemporaries read them back then and appreciated them.
[Surely this is this no different from, say, your "Turn of the
Century" approach and that evidence...]
And by all means: refer to whatever historical sources you have
(to provide us with the circumstances, the date, information
whether the author had been in Macedonia and had first hand
experience or happened to be angry or an enemy of the
Macedonians).
This will help us see the whole spectrum and the evolution of
ancient views.
> >
> > Why? Whom can he convince?
>
> You?
You.
John Prodromidis
Slavko Mangovski <ma...@gate.net> responded in May/26/1997, and I
regard these points, given the other arguments, as "lesser".
If pressed for time (I am on vacation!!!) I would not mind dropping
some of these items for I happen to place less weight compared to
those of my previous posting. In any case these are my comments.
>
> John Prodromidis wrote:
[on the story of Alexander I's participation in some Olympics]
\
> > - It is conceivable he accepted the argument that: issues
> > concerning qualifications were better dealt and resolved
> > not by a crowd or other athletes talking or shouting,
> > but (in such events as the Olympics) by the appropriate
> > referees or judges.
>
> So a king is being hauled before the judges who had to hear
> his story FIRST before reaching a decision.
Come one Mangovski. Nowhere in the story do I encounter this
invoking picture. There is no evidence that any one was dragged or
pulled.
Perhaps there was no Royal Road to the Olympics...
Once an inquiry had been asked/instigated upon registration or
declaration of participation by [whomever], the matter ought to be
examined.
Don't you agree?
\
> > The affair was, presumably, dealt in a procedure before or
> > at the time of the traditional oath of fair contest (first
> > day), and the announcement of the competitors (second
> > day).
> > The Foot-race itself taking place on the 4th day,
> > according to F.A.Wright.
>
> Very informative, John. How does it help us?
Perhaps very little. It tells us how things may have happened
following due process. One does not have to think of the event
taking place in the stadium with crowds or athletes shouting to
each other, etc. (our discussion of May/20):
- Some(one) of unknown educational status and provenance from
any place around the Mediterranean and Black Sea, question(s) an
athlete's qualification upon registration, or during the oath or
at the announcement of the competitors.
- The Judges ask the athlete his personal lineage. 4 days later on
the day of the race, he takes part.
> >
> > 2) On related issues and Herodotos:
> > - He asked what account might exist to confirm/corroborate
> > to the Judges the story of one's Herakleid/Peloponnesian
> > descent, as told to the Judges of the games of Herakles
> > in the very Peloponnesos. And I found that 'cute'.
>
> We have already seen that you find everything 'cute,' John.
> Why don't you illuminate us with some evidence. So far
> I have seen just blabbering.
The Peloponnesos was the one place Herakleid traditions and
genealogical connections/memories run strong. You ask to be
illuminated. Define "evidence", and by all means: do blab a little
bit with respect to your understanding of their nature and scope.
> > - He skipped the official Herakleid tradition of the Macedo-
> > nian Royals by jumping from the late 5th and early 4th
> > century BC, to the hypotheses articulated on the 2nd
> > century CE. That was 'cute' also! :-)
>
> I'll let Wilken answer:
>
> and it was only when by a bold fiction he traced back the
> pedigree of his house, the Argeadae, to the Haraclid Temenus of
> Argos, that he was admitted as a competitor. Since then the
> kings of Macedon passed with the Greeks as Hellenes, and as
> descendants of Heracles; but, as before, so afterwards, the
> people were regarded as barbarians - even by Isocrates in his
> Philip
How does this relate to my comment of your quick jump from the
official and accepted Herakleid tradition (in conjunction with the
Dorian-Macedonian connection) to the hypotheses articulated 6
centuries later?
> > - His position that the "Dorians DID NOT consider the Macedo-
> > nians as Greek", once confronted with the information that
> > Herodotos himself was Dorian, evolved into "Does he
> > directly say the 'Macedonians were Dorians'?".
>
> You're funny, John. Instead of providing us evidence that the
> Macedonians were, or considered themselves, Dorians,
:-) :-) What is funnier Mangovski, is that this has no prospect of
working on me:
You keep trying to flip or switch our respective positions!
But tell me Mangovski: Have I ever even implied that I have an
ancient Macedonian document with evidence of a single actual
Macedonian saying anything whatsoever about his/her/their own
national origin?
Let me remind you: It is YOU Mangovski who claim things, and I
am the one who has been challenging you to come up with such a
testimony! Just as late as May 21st, I asked you to provide us
with what you say exists because supposedly the Macedonians
considered themselves a certain way. I am still waiting, though
-as far as I recall- your favorite Badian said we have nothing.
> you keep telling us that Herodotus was Dorian.
>
If you wish refute it. If not, allow for the possibility of him
- being in a position and having some qualification to discern
similarities between his own people and the Macedonians he
visited; and/or
- recalling his own national traditions with respect to the
Dorian-Macedonian relation that he described...
Thus, serving as the surviving link and medium.
> Why don't you tell us why didn't Alex I just say at the Olymics
> "I'm Dorian!"
As if I haven't... Because
- strictly speaking, as a Herakleid, he was arguably not;
- and he was asked about his own family lineage.
[On Demosthenes]
>
> > - He unreservedly views the Athenian as "the most famous
> > orator of all times". (That is: "all times".)
>
> I'm just repeating what I have read many times.
Where? (if do not mind my asking?)
I may want to use it someday.
> > - However, he thinks his orations are taught badly in
> > Greece, but he hasn't actually seen it; yet he "just dies
> > to see" it. I sort of told him we don't want casualties,
> > and to knock wood.
>
> Point is, dear John, that pGreece is a totalitarian country so
> anything contradicting official policy is suppressed.
But, dear Slavko, your have not been there, and you haven't seen
how the Athenian orator's works are taught, so better focus on the
Miladinovs, et.al. and the fyromian inventions of mytho-history...
However, to advance your insight, let me add: Since awareness
over some northern neighbors' aspiration to call themselves
Macedonians and their claims was negligible till very few years
ago, there was nothing "polit.incorrect" with Demosthenes: Nobody
was claiming his old enemies and Greeks are fond of both parties
anyway -as you already know. So the works of Demosthenes' were
standard features in the curriculum, in easy-going Greece.
The old Athenian was eloquent, and the more one knew what he had
"written" the better chances he/she had passing the exams; and
even those who disliked classical studies found in his name-calling
a very familiar tune from the regular Sunday experience between
north and south (PAOK vs PAO, Aris vs Panionios, Iraklis vs
Diagoras), to relate.
Naturally, now with the "flag" and "name" issue (actually,
strike the former) the average Greek is aware of these people's
existence. Yet, since we are so comfortably settled in our ways
we kept the curriculum as it was. :-)
> > - Somehow Mangovski rejects Demosthenes' Aischinean reference
> > on Philip (i.e., that Philip was considered "the most
> > Hellenic of all men"; On the Embassy 307-8), as evidence of
> > two different views...
> > But by now such things are "peanuts"!
>
> Considered by whom?
Aischines.
\
> > - He confuses the small Dorian tetrapolis in central Greece,
> > that sat on the Amphictionic Council, with the whole
> > Dorian world.
> > This again illustrates the necessity to differentiate
> > appellations between groups -whenever possible- to avoid
> > creating confusion among the general public.
>
> The only confused one here is you John. Unless you want to claim
> that the confused are Wilken, Borza, Badian, Hammon etc
Absolutely irrelevant to the issue of the tertapolis and the
modern discussions of the name-formula of FYROM. If you think
otherwise quote them on both issues.
> > This is something that also applies on Mangovski's ignorant
> > and confusing 'motto' about the ancient Macedonians:
> > "They Macedonians, we Macedonians". [May/11/97]
>
> How does that influence our discussion?
See the confusion over the Dorians (above), and you'll understand.