Hellenes and the turkish blood myth
belo...@my-dejanews.com
turks or have turkish blood in them. It is very funny though that not one of
these people who claim this proposition have ever attempted to substantiate
it with any evidence what so ever. To them it seems all but, very convenient
to make a statement such as this because of our known despise towards the
turks. As a Hellene I find it incomprehensible to have any turkish blood
within me or to be of turkish decent despite 400 years of turkish occupation.
I refute such ludicrous statements.
1. If I am of turkish blood, why do I speak Hellenic? Or for that matter
why did all of my ancestors.
2. Why am I Hellenic Orthodox in faith? Or for that matter all of my
ancestors.
3. During the ottoman occupation Hellenes which became turks through
conversion or intermarriage were isolated, hated and seen as traitors and
outcasts to their Hellenic roots. Inevitabely with time these turkoHellens
were seen as turks and left with the population exchanges of 1922-1923.
4. If it is anyone who has foreign blood in them, this should definately be
the turks. Through centuries of stealing the sons (janissaries) and
daughters (servants) of the occupied peoples of the Balkans they have mixed
their blood to such an extent that one must doubt whether ottomans even exist
in modern times. For it was the ottomans themselves who, in effect, dilluted
their blood with the blood of foreigners and not the Hellenes.
Axilleas
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-Surensoy,E.
individuals who are of Turkish stock have been very happily
married to individuals of Greek heritage (and individuals of
other heritages, such as Armenians, Kurds, Arabs of all
nationalities, Iranians, Assurians, etc) for ages. Such marriages
produced generations of offsprings who have been perfectly
excepted by everyone.
I am quite sure similar behaviour has been the norm in Greece
in all the other countries.
Only those who call Turks "barbarians" are brainwashed hate
mongerers cannot and will not realize the fact that, fortunately,
the vast majority of people of each race or nation are perfectly
good and peace loving people. But unfortunately, a small minority
of people in almost every race and nation are low enough to exploit
anything and everything including national and cultural emotions and
feelings for their petty benefits.
Sooner or later, the peace loving majorities of all nations and
races will be able to educate those parasites to be free from hatred,
greed and jealousy, and establish an ever lasting peace at home
and the World with love and respect regardless of race, nationality,
culture, religion, language, gender, personal or national wealth,
etc.
It will happen sooner than those parasites are expecting and they
will be out of their business and livelihood which they have built
on the sufferings of innocent peoples.
In article <6u0l52$n86$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<belo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
) Lately, I have been seeing alot of barbarians as saying that Hellenes are
)turks or have turkish blood in them. It is very funny though that not one of
)these people who claim this proposition have ever attempted to substantiate
)it with any evidence what so ever. To them it seems all but, very convenient
)to make a statement such as this because of our known despise towards the
)turks. As a Hellene I find it incomprehensible to have any turkish blood
)within me or to be of turkish decent despite 400 years of turkish occupation.
) I refute such ludicrous statements.
)
)1. If I am of turkish blood, why do I speak Hellenic? Or for that matter
)why did all of my ancestors.
)
)2. Why am I Hellenic Orthodox in faith? Or for that matter all of my
)ancestors.
)
)3. During the ottoman occupation Hellenes which became turks through
)conversion or intermarriage were isolated, hated and seen as traitors and
)outcasts to their Hellenic roots. Inevitabely with time these turkoHellens
)were seen as turks and left with the population exchanges of 1922-1923.
)
)4. If it is anyone who has foreign blood in them, this should definately be
)the turks. Through centuries of stealing the sons (janissaries) and
)daughters (servants) of the occupied peoples of the Balkans they have mixed
)their blood to such an extent that one must doubt whether ottomans even exist
)in modern times. For it was the ottomans themselves who, in effect, dilluted
)their blood with the blood of foreigners and not the Hellenes.
)
)
)
)Axilleas
)
)
)-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
)http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
OpaTennant
Beloved wrote in message
>Message-id: <6u0l52$n86$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> Lately, I have been seeing alot of barbarians as saying that Hellenes are
>turks or have turkish blood in them. It is very funny though that not one of
>these people who claim this proposition have ever attempted to substantiate
>it with any evidence what so ever.
>To them it seems all but, very convenient
>to make a statement such as this because of our known despise towards the
>turks. As a Hellene I find it incomprehensible to have any turkish blood
>within me or to be of turkish decent despite 400 years of turkish occupation.
> I refute such ludicrous statements.
The Turks also occupied Egypt for some 400-450 years and are not terribly well
liked there either. However, there is quite a bit of Turkish mixture in the
population. I should think that after such a long period of cohabitation there
would be at least a fair amount of mixing. In Hungary, however, the Turks held
sway for 150 years and there was little, if any, mixing there, as not only was
the time period much shorter but the Turks were very much hated there in light
of the enormous amount of destruction they carried out. Not only was the
Hungarian population greatly decimated (and many of those who were not killed
were taken into slavery), but the land was devastated as well. What is now the
Puszta (Great Plain) in Hungary was, believe it or not, a forested area prior
to Turkish occupation.
>
>1. If I am of turkish blood, why do I speak Hellenic? Or for that
matter
>why did all of my ancestors.
The Egyptians speak Arabic, not Turkish, but they do have a lot of Turkish
blood in their midst.
>
<snipped for brevity>
>4. If it is anyone who has foreign blood in them, this should definately be
>the turks. Through centuries of stealing the sons (janissaries) and daughters
(servants) of the occupied peoples of the Balkans they have mixed
>their blood to such an extent that one must doubt whether ottomans even exist
>in modern times. For it was the ottomans themselves who, in effect, dilluted
>their blood with the blood of foreigners and not the Hellenes.
>
>
>Axilleas
IMHO I don't think it's terribly important whether one has the blood of another
racial group or not. After all, we have no control over such matters insofar as
our own birth is concerned and the best of us are often born under the worst of
circumstances.
As for differences that do exist, it does little good to belabor them. There
have been many references in this group to the alleged physical appearances and
differences between Turks and Hellenes and perhaps there are. I have visited
both countries and must confess that the two groups (as a whole) do not look
alike to me, but so what?! The same thing goes for behaviors. Again, I saw
differences between the two countries with respect to certain aspects of social
behavior. For example, I found it immensely annoying in Turkey to be constantly
followed around by flirtatious men everywhere, as they apparently have a real
thing for blondes. As complimentary as it may have been, it was very tiresome,
although I must confess that Turkish men can be quite charming and imaginative
in their amatory approaches. However, I was also approached by males in Greece
but in a quite different and not very charming manner, which made me out and
out furious. Nevertheless, I let both situations pass because I was, after all,
a female traveling alone in countries where such behavior is either frowned
upon or regarded as provocative at the very least, with the attitude being that
such women are fair game. I might add, however, that in my travels throughout
Arab countries, I was rarely flirted with or harrassed in public, and even when
such flirtation did occur, it was done in a very charming and complimentary
fashion. In fact, the only women I ever saw publicly harrassed in Arab
countries were Western females who flaunted themselves Western style (wearing
extremely short or tight clothes, gobs of makeup, etc.) and, as far as I'm
concerned, they deserved the disrespect they got, since I feel that one should,
even as a transient tourist, show at least a minimum of respect for local
values and traditions.
Krisztina
DRA...@my-dejanews.com
en...@ihgp4.ih.lucent.com (-Surensoy,E.) wrote:
> In Turkiye I personally know hundreds, if not thousands, of
> individuals who are of Turkish stock have been very happily
> married to individuals of Greek heritage (and individuals of
> other heritages, such as Armenians, Kurds, Arabs of all
> nationalities, Iranians, Assurians, etc) for ages. Such marriages
> produced generations of offsprings who have been perfectly
> excepted by everyone.
Except Abdulhamid the 2nd, this piece of Racist shit - Enis Surensoy
a few weeks ago used to critisize the Ottoman Sultans to be products
of armenian or greek mothers, now perhaps after a message from
LUCENT TECH's Public Relations Dept, he had changed his tone of
voice on his racists views on inter-racial marriages.
That's an improvement for a racist like Enis.
Note: Search Deja News with a key word "LUCENT" to see this racist's
real deep hatred on inter=racial merriages.
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
belo...@my-dejanews.com
en...@ihgp4.ih.lucent.com (-Surensoy,E.) wrote:
> In Turkiye I personally know hundreds, if not thousands, of
> individuals who are of Turkish stock have been very happily
> married to individuals of Greek heritage (and individuals of
> other heritages, such as Armenians, Kurds, Arabs of all
> nationalities, Iranians, Assurians, etc) for ages. Such marriages
> produced generations of offsprings who have been perfectly
> excepted by everyone.
In Hellas such a union with foreigners, especially of turkish stock would be
considered a damnation and a shame for the family.
>
> I am quite sure similar behaviour has been the norm in Greece
> in all the other countries.
On the contrary, in Hellas, behavior such as the one you are describing is
uncommon, if not extremely rare and not the "norm" as you believe.
> Only those who call Turks "barbarians" are brainwashed hate
> mongerers cannot and will not realize the fact that, fortunately,
> the vast majority of people of each race or nation are perfectly
> good and peace loving people. But unfortunately, a small minority
> of people in almost every race and nation are low enough to exploit
> anything and everything including national and cultural emotions and
> feelings for their petty benefits.
For your information to a Hellene, a barbarian is anyone who does not speak
Hellenic, in other words, they speak like they are saying "bar bar". The term
barbarian is not used in the same context in Hellas as it is used elsewhere in
the world. Through the ages the meaning of barbarian has been placed out of
its original context and nowadays in countries outside of Hellas has come to
mean someone who is uncivilised.
> Sooner or later, the peace loving majorities of all nations and
> races will be able to educate those parasites to be free from hatred,
> greed and jealousy, and establish an ever lasting peace at home
> and the World with love and respect regardless of race, nationality,
> culture, religion, language, gender, personal or national wealth,
> etc.
Let me know when that happens.
> It will happen sooner than those parasites are expecting and they
> will be out of their business and livelihood which they have built
> on the sufferings of innocent peoples.
When you speak of parasites are you talking about the war beating turkish
regime who has threatened openly Hellas with war if we exercise our right to
expand our territorial waters to 12 nautical miles. Which openly enters our
air space and waters almost on a daily basis in order to provoke the Hellenes
into a war. Or has threatened Cyprus, a country of 600,000, if they exercise
their God given right of self-defense. A country which has persecuted and
wiped out Hellenism from Asia Minor despite our historic presence on that
area. A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to reduce
the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of decades.
A country with more reporters in jail than China or North Korea. A country
which denies the Armenian genocide ever happened. A country in which, up to
my grandmothers death in 1987, was still unable to find out what happend to
her father and eldest brother in 1922 in Smyrni after they were taken away by
turkish troops for the crime of being Hellenes, only never to be seen or
heard from again. If you are talking about these parasites, I guess you are
right. A day shall come when these parasites are no longer around. Justice
shall prevail for those being unjustly targeted and threatened. Just as our
forfathers did in the past, so shall we rise against tyranny and restore this
small country to its rightful place.
Axilleas
Time is forever and it is on the Hellenic side
Unknown
intermarried. And the children became "Turkish", with fewer and fewer
Mongolian characteristics. But there was no incentive for someone of
Turkish blood to call himself Greek. Greeks were treated as inferior
to Turks and taxed more heavily. So the Greeks remained pretty "pure".
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
APoulaki
Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish identity.
Achilles
>Surensoy,E.) wrote:
>> In Turkiye I personally know hundreds, if not thousands, of
>> individuals who are of Turkish stock have been very happily
>> married to individuals of Greek heritage (and individuals of
>> other heritages, such as Armenians, Kurds, Arabs of all
>> nationalities, Iranians, Assurians, etc) for ages. Such marriages
>> produced generations of offsprings who have been perfectly
>> excepted by everyone.
>
>Except Abdulhamid the 2nd, this piece of Racist shit - Enis Surensoy
>a few weeks ago used to critisize the Ottoman Sultans to be products
>of armenian or greek mothers, now perhaps after a message from
snip
Can Subaykan
> In Hellas such a union with foreigners, especially of turkish stock would be
> considered a damnation and a shame for the family.
Why do you waste time writing to Turks? You should be ashamed!
> For your information to a Hellene, a barbarian is anyone who does not
> speak Hellenic, in other words, they speak like they are saying "bar
> bar". The term barbarian is not used in the same context in Hellas as
> it is used elsewhere in the world. Through the ages the meaning of
> barbarian has been placed out of its original context and nowadays in
> countries outside of Hellas has come to mean someone who is
> uncivilised.
How do you expect barbarians to understand this? We are barbarians! So
when you call us "barbarian" we don't understand because we don't speak
"Hellenic"
> Axilleas
> Time is forever and it is on the Hellenic side
>
Tra-la-la-la hoppa!
Nevzat Akdemir
What you wrote below goes right to the garbage can, Mr.Gyro.
nevzat
Alexander Arnakis
>
> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries.
Listen, Mr. "Poulaki" -- you're full of bull !!
Sostratus
APoulaki wrote in message <19980920090608...@ng101.aol.com>...
>
> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
identity.
> Achilles
Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage. The only solution
is for one of the persons to change his/her religion. Koran forbids the
muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
the death. Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
muslims.
Sostratus.
OpaTennant
Sostratus wrote in message
> <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>APoulaki wrote
>> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
>>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
>>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
identity.
>Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book", which
includes both Jews and Christians.
>Koran forbids the
>muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
>the death.
From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my knowledge,
it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna. It sounds like a Turkish thing to
me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
learning, from Coptic Christianity to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life (the
scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
(considered dead and disinherited). The fellow in question is no fanatic or
Islamic terrorist and is, in fact, an exceptionally good and gentle person who
spends a great deal of time involved in projects on behalf of the poor. The
hatred of the Copts towards the Muslims in Egypt is unbelievable and was
extended towards myself as well since the majority of my friends were Egyptian
and, by definition, Muslims (Copts claim to comprise 10% of Egypt's population
but, in reality, are about 5-6%). Amazingly enough, however, I came across very
little animosity or discrimination on the part of the general Muslim population
towards the Copts (nor towards the Jews for that matter), despite claims made
to the contrary by the Copts. (And here I am, quite obviously excluding the
small group of fanatics--on both sides of the religious divide--of Upper
Egypt, who have been at each other's throats for the past two decades.)
>Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
>muslims.
Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
(G).
Krisztina
Alexander Arnakis
>
>Sostratus wrote in message
>> <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>
>>APoulaki wrote
>
>>> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries.
>
>>Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>
>Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book", which
>includes both Jews and Christians.
>
>>Koran forbids the
>>muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
>>the death.
>
>From where did you get this piece of information?
>>Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
>>muslims.
>
>Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
>(G).
>
Krisztina: Sostratus is basically right. If a Muslim converts to any
other faith, that is "apostacy," which in many parts of the Islamic
world is a capital offense (Saudi Arabia, etc.). As a parallel, look
at what happened to Salman Rushdie.
Devout Muslims would insist that anyone they married would have to
convert to Islam. Look at the case of King Hussein of Jordan and Queen
Noor (formerly Christian).
Sostratus
Krisztina wrote in message <19980922004403...@ng-fb2.aol.com>...
>
>>Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>
>Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
which
>includes both Jews and Christians.
You should know Krisztina that there's no valid marriage for Christians and
Jews if both persons do not belong to the same religion. Thus Krisztina the
muslim one has to convert his religion to Christianism or Jewish
accordingly. This may follow what Mr.Arnakis already suggested, Krisztina.
>>Koran forbids the
>>muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a
punishment
>>the death.
>
>From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my
knowledge,
>it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna. It sounds like a Turkish thing
to
>me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
>intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church.
<very interesting info on Egypt copts by Krisztina snipped for brevity>
Although the answer has been given by Mr.Arnakis, Krisztina, I would like to
add a small quote: Every christian Krisztina knows well how free may feel to
select and how easy is to follow another religion in a Christian country. On
the other hand 'giaurs' were never accepted as equal citizens in f.ex.
Ottoman empire, Krisztina. 'Giaur' means unfaithful, Krisztina, in Turkish.
>>Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
>>muslims.
>Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you
think
>(G).
Yes, you must be right, Krisztina.
>Krisztina
Regards, Krisztina.
Sostratus.
lin...@hotmail.com
> City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to reduce
> the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of decades.
What you mean by the City, there is lots of cities in the world.
Perhaps you mean Istambul.(hn Poln)
In relation with this I would like to list here the names of this glorious
city which she had in the cource of history:
Byzantion, from VII-VI year before Common Era(CE) Constantinopolis, from IV
century CE hn Poln(i poli), in everyday Rum(Romaic, Hellenic)) language
Qostantiniyye, as called in Arabic and in official Ottoman documents Istambul
which was presumably derived from Romaic(Hellenic) stnv Poln( pronouced
stimboli), meaning in(to) the City)
The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God). For
centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of God
be upon him).
Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic: such
obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine Wisdom
and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound his
glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name Muhammad:
Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year 1453
will never disappear from Muslim hearts. On the remnants of decayed Byzantine
civilization Ottomans have raised a new one which was maybe the most perfect
implementation of the Divine Law, after Asr-i Saadet(the Age of Happiness)in
Medinah during Prophet's(Peace and blessings of God be upon him) times.
Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
apou...@aol.com (APoulaki) wrote:
>
> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
> Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
> father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
identity.
As you perhaps know, Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslims.
Therefore there were no possibility for Turkish woman to marry Greek
Christian man. If Greek man wanted to marry Turkish woman he had to convert to
Islam, and in the result such family was also Turkish. Therefore all mixed
Greek-Turkish marriages were producing Turkish offspring.
The only way how Turkish blood could enter the Greek race were extramarital
relations(not very common at that time I suppose) or Greek intermarriage with
Christian Turks as Gagauz or Karamanli(not too numerous).
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
opate...@aol.com (OpaTennant) wrote:
>
> Sostratus wrote in message
> > <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>
>
> >> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
> >>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
> >>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
> identity.
>
>
> Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
which
> includes both Jews and Christians.
It is true.
> >Koran forbids the
> >muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
> >the death.
> From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my knowledge,
> it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna.
According to Sharia, Muslim's converting to other religion(riddah) is
punishable by death. Unfortunately I don't know what is daleel shar'i for
such decision of Islamic scholars but it is certain that ALL FOUR Islamic
school(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali) consider this capital offense. There
is no mention about riddah in Qur'an(I suppose). So the daleel should be
either from Sunnah(Hadith) or from Ijmah al-Sahabah(consensus of the
Companions of Prophet).
> It sounds like a Turkish thing to
> me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
> intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
> Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
> learning, from Coptic Christianity to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
> of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life (the
> scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
> (considered dead and disinherited).
I think that this fellow was disinherited not because of his family's hatred
due to his conversion. According to Muslim sharia law, a Muslim cannot
inherit from a non Muslim, neither non Muslim from a Muslim. Therefore if
this fellow has adopted Islam he has lost his rights to heritage according to
SHARIAH LAW as long as his family remains Christian. Also if the father
converts to Islam and dies, but his son remains Christian, the son will not
inherit from his father.
The fact that Copts are strongly opposed towards conversion is obvious fact.
They are extremely proud of their religion which they consider to be the most
pure and ancient Christianity(I think it is perhaps true). They also think
that they, and not Muslim Egyptians, are "true Egyptians" because they
conserve(only as liturgic language) the Coptic language which is issued from
Old Egyptian language. Also do to their confessional isolation they haven't
mixed with Arabs, Turks and others and preserved the genotype of Old
Egyptians.
Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
opate...@aol.com (OpaTennant) wrote:
>
> In Hungary, however, the Turks held
> sway for 150 years and there was little, if any, mixing there, as not only was
> the time period much shorter but the Turks were very much hated there in
light
> of the enormous amount of destruction they carried out. Not only was the
> Hungarian population greatly decimated (and many of those who were not killed
> were taken into slavery), but the land was devastated as well.
The land and population was decimated primarily by the wars which raged
between Ottomans and Habsburgs. I don't think that Ottomans had special
intent to ravage Hungary. However ever shifting border and precarious
situation made great sufferings for Magyar people. However the situation in
the areas held by Habsburgs was hardly was any better because when Imre
Thokoly started his resurrection he applied for Turkish help. I have read
somewhere that Turkish vizier Kara Mustafa Pasha started his campaign against
Wien in 1682 on the advice of Imre Thokoly. I don't know if it is true.
Ferenc Rakoczy also fled to Turkey after his defeat against Habsburgs.
> What is now the
> Puszta (Great Plain) in Hungary was, believe it or not, a forested area prior
> to Turkish occupation.
It is doubtful if Puszta was forested territory before Ottoman rule. At least
there wasn't too much forests. Since Ancient Magyars of prince Arpad who came
from South Russian stepps and established there were nomads, I don't think
they would have settled in forested area. If you look at the map of old
Magyar Kingdom(pre-Trianon) you will see that Magyars lived mostly in the
flatland or moderately hilly areas Puszta, Dunantul and Kisalfold near
Pozsony and Nyitra. Also Szekely area in Erdely(around the town of Csik
Szereda) is also, as shown in map less wooded and mountanous than surrounding
areas inhabited by Olah(Rumanians). In Carpatian Rus(now province of Ukraine)
also Magyar population is concentrated in flatland, arround the cities of
Munkacs and Beregszasz.
I think that the main reason why Hungarians were unable to assimilate Slovaks,
Olah, Ukranians was their predilection to setlle in flat, less wooded areas.
The situation in Backa and Baranya was different. Until XVI, this flat
teritory was populated by Magyars, however after Ottoman time when they
became fairly sparsely inhabited, Habsburgs settled there many Serbs, Germans
and Rumanians.
An interesting fact is that in XV Magyar population of Hungary(in
pre-Trianon) Hungary is assesed to be 75% Hungarians, and in XVIII in the
time of emperor Joseph's rule there were only 30% Hungarians. Before the
dismemberment of Hungary the percentage of Hungarians was about 60%. I don't
know another country which was so terribly dismembered as Hungary in 1920. In
fact the so called "civilized" Europeans(French, British) showed themselves
much worse that so called "barbarous" Turks. The fact that the country was
stripped of 66% percent of her tereitory is unprecedented in history. Almost
all important cities of Hungary(Pozsony, Nyitra, Komarom, Besztercebanya,
Kassa, Munkacs, Beregszasz, Arad, Nagyvarad, Szatmar-Nemzeti, Kolozsvar,
Temesvar, Nagyszeben, Ujvidek) all of them with majority Magyar population
were taken away. The remaining Hungary was in fact Budapest + countryside,
with exception of some towns as Debrecen, Miskolc and Gyor. All natural
ressources of Hungary were taken away. Such are "civilized" Europeans. I
think that such cruel barbarous behavior toward Magyars was motivated by
racial hatred towards "Asiatic race". The same cruel behavior wasn't applied
to Germans after First World War, since they were "fellow Europeans". If we
remember how Europeans tried to dismember Turkey in 1920 the picture becomes
complete.
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
Jon Papadimitriou
>
> A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
> > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to reduce
> > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of decades.
>
> What you mean by the City, there is lots of cities in the world.
>
> Perhaps you mean Istambul.(hn Poln)
>
> In relation with this I would like to list here the names of this glorious
> city which she had in the cource of history:
>
> Byzantion, from VII-VI year before Common Era(CE) Constantinopolis, from IV
> century CE hn Poln(i poli), in everyday Rum(Romaic, Hellenic)) language
> Qostantiniyye, as called in Arabic and in official Ottoman documents Istambul
> which was presumably derived from Romaic(Hellenic) stnv Poln( pronouced
> stimboli), meaning in(to) the City)
>
> The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
> masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God). For
> centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
> the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
> the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of God
> be upon him).
I suppose that "Prophet Isa" is a reference to Jesus. You say "peace be upon
him". But for "Mohammed", you say "peace and blessings of God be upon him".
Why is there this differentiation in the Muslim faith?? Further, you say that
it was by decree of God to pass into Ottoman hands. Isn't that taking history a
little too naively??
>
> Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic: such
> obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine Wisdom
> and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound his
> glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
>
> By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
> converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name Muhammad:
> Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year 1453
> will never disappear from Muslim hearts. On the remnants of decayed Byzantine
> civilization Ottomans have raised a new one which was maybe the most perfect
> implementation of the Divine Law, after Asr-i Saadet(the Age of Happiness)in
> Medinah during Prophet's(Peace and blessings of God be upon him) times.
You seem to know a lot about the Islamic faith. I would like to ask you a
simple question. It is forbidden for non-Muslims to enter the city of Mecca
(Makkah). Is there something in the Koran or some other Islamic religious book
that forbids this, or is it just a man made law in Saudi Arabia. I have heard
that one of Mohammed's best friends was Christian and he lived in Mecca, so it
seems that the prohibition is contrary to Mohammed's teachings.
Jon Papadimitriou
>
> Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
GS
OpaTennant wrote:
> Sostratus wrote in message
> > <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>
> >APoulaki wrote
>
> >> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
> >>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
> >>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
> identity.
>
> >Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>
> Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book", which
> includes both Jews and Christians.
>
> >Koran forbids the
> >muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
> >the death.
>
> From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my knowledge,
> it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna. It sounds like a Turkish thing to
> me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
> intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
> Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
> learning, from Coptic Christianity to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
> of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life (the
> scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
> (considered dead and disinherited). The fellow in question is no fanatic or
> Islamic terrorist and is, in fact, an exceptionally good and gentle person who
> spends a great deal of time involved in projects on behalf of the poor. The
> hatred of the Copts towards the Muslims in Egypt is unbelievable and was
> extended towards myself as well since the majority of my friends were Egyptian
> and, by definition, Muslims (Copts claim to comprise 10% of Egypt's population
> but, in reality, are about 5-6%). Amazingly enough, however, I came across very
> little animosity or discrimination on the part of the general Muslim population
> towards the Copts (nor towards the Jews for that matter), despite claims made
> to the contrary by the Copts. (And here I am, quite obviously excluding the
> small group of fanatics--on both sides of the religious divide--of Upper
> Egypt, who have been at each other's throats for the past two decades.)
>
> >Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
> >muslims.
>
> Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
> (G).
>
> Krisztina
Dear "Krisztina",
For your education:
C:\WINDOWS\DESKTOP\www_copts_com.html
OpaTennant
Alexander wrote in message
360732b1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
>opate...@aol.com (OpaTennant) wrote:
>>Sostratus wrote in message
>>> <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>>>> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries.
>>
>>>Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>>
>>Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
>which
>>includes both Jews and Christians.
>>
>>>Koran forbids the
>>>muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a
>punishment
>>>the death.
>>
>>From where did you get this piece of information?
>
>>>Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
>>>muslims.
>>
>>Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
>>(G).
>>
>Krisztina: Sostratus is basically right. If a Muslim converts to any
>other faith, that is "apostacy," which in many parts of the Islamic
>world is a capital offense (Saudi Arabia, etc.). As a parallel, look
>at what happened to Salman Rushdie.
>
Rushdie's case which led to the issuance of a "fatwah" (religious decree) by
the Shiite (as opposed to Sunni) clergy is a different matter for two reasons:
(a) his case involves one of blasphemy rather than apostacy, as he has never
officially rejected Islam. In fact, ironically enough, if one reads the book he
wrote that led to the whole controversy (the Satanic Verses), one does not see
in it an indictment of Islam per se but of religious hypocrisy. As for the
section of the book in question, I personally found it absolutely unnecessary,
patently offensive, and totally unconvincing; in short, it seemed very
contrived to me and added nothing to the book which I, otherwise, found to be
quite entertaining and beautifully written, especially the opening section and
the "butterflies" chapter. As for the fatwah itself, I think it's preposterous,
as are most of the Shiite rulings and interpretations. (For those of you out
there who are not familiar with the distinction between Sunni and Shiite
branches of Islam, the latter is the most radical and, at the same time,
conservative of the two groups, radical being used here in the "fanatical"
sense of the term. Most of the Islamic "terrorist" organizations are Shiite
groups and are the ones basically who give Islam a bad name. Most of the Sunni
Moslems I have known have been very kind, devout, gentle, compassionate and
above all, reasonable individuals. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing
about the Shiites I've dealt with; trying to "discuss" anything with a Shiite
is like trying to have an intellectual debate with a preacher from one of the
fundamentalist Christian sects.)
>Devout Muslims would insist that anyone they married would have to
>convert to Islam. Look at the case of King Hussein of Jordan and Queen
>Noor (formerly Christian).
Getting back to the major topic of discussion, I'm still not convinced that one
HAS to convert to Islam if he or she marries a Muslim, although the nature of
the marriage will affect hereditary rights. I THINK (but I could be wrong about
this) that in Judaism, the inheritance passes through the mother (i.e., the
mother must be Jewish, while in Islam, it passes through the father I (i.e.,
the father must be a Muslim). I don't know what happens in the case of a Jewish
woman marrying a Muslim man, but I can well imagine! (G)
Anyway, I think that most people who marry Muslims are already predisposed to
Islamic beliefs and culture and thus conversion for them would be a fairly easy
matter. The converse would not be so easy, as a Muslim would not only have to
give up his or her religion to convert to Christianity but essentially his
culture as well, since Islamic society is more of a holistic entity than
Christian society.
Krisztina
P.S. Thank you for your courteous response and for not going ballistic, as
posters in this group often do, when someone contradicts what another poster
says.
GS
OpaTennant wrote:
> Sostratus wrote in message
> > <6u6041$l0o$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>
>
> >APoulaki wrote
>
> >> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
> >>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
> >>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
> identity.
>
> >Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>
> Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book", which
> includes both Jews and Christians.
>
> >Koran forbids the
> >muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a punishment
> >the death.
>
> From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my knowledge,
> it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna. It sounds like a Turkish thing to
> me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
> intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
> Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
> learning, from Coptic Christianity to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
> of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life (the
> scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
> (considered dead and disinherited). The fellow in question is no fanatic or
> Islamic terrorist and is, in fact, an exceptionally good and gentle person who
> spends a great deal of time involved in projects on behalf of the poor. The
> hatred of the Copts towards the Muslims in Egypt is unbelievable and was
> extended towards myself as well since the majority of my friends were Egyptian
> and, by definition, Muslims (Copts claim to comprise 10% of Egypt's population
> but, in reality, are about 5-6%). Amazingly enough, however, I came across very
> little animosity or discrimination on the part of the general Muslim population
> towards the Copts (nor towards the Jews for that matter), despite claims made
> to the contrary by the Copts. (And here I am, quite obviously excluding the
> small group of fanatics--on both sides of the religious divide--of Upper
> Egypt, who have been at each other's throats for the past two decades.)
>
> >Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be
> >muslims.
>
> Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
> (G).
>
> Krisztina
http://www.copts.com/10coptic.htm
This page is Black in protest to the Killings of our brothers
and sisters in Egypt. The Egyption Government is
RESPONSIBLE for those killings, by providing protection to
the Killers.
Egypt
Copyright 1997 by United Press International / Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:55 PST
T
CAIRO, Feb. 13 (UPI) -- 10 Christians were killed in an unprecedented attack
inside a church in central Egypt.
Security sources say the victims of the automatic rifle attack inside the
church were buried Thursday amidmarches by
local Coptic and Muslim protesters. Senior local officials and leading Coptic
and Muslim clergyled the funeral service.
Six Copts were wounded in the late Wednesday attack, one of whom died early
Thursday; nine had beenshot dead at
the scene, including one passer-by.
The attack was on Mary Guirguis Church in the Abu Qurqas area of el- Minya
province, about 160 miles(270 km)
south of Cairo.
The victims were huddled in an evening meeting, which are held at churches by
young Copts to pray, discuss
community programs and other activities, the sources said.
The German news agency, DPA, says victims included four girls and several
teenage students. More than 200 spent
cartridges were found at the church.
The assault was the first in Egypt's modern history inside a church and was the
bloodiest single assault on Copts since
Muslim extremists started their insurgency in 1992 to replace the secular
government with Iran-style Muslim rule.
The security sources blamed members of the paramilitary wing of el- Gamaa
el-Islamiya, or the Islamic Group, which
has been tied to much of Egypt's violence.
More than 1,100 people have been killed and many more wounded in the five-year
campaign.
Copyright 1997 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.
Reuter, Feb, 13 1997.
Death toll rises to 10 from Egypt church attack
ASSIUT, Egypt, Feb 13 (Reuter) The dath toll from an attack on a Coptic
Christian church in southern Egypt rose to 10 on
Thursday when a medical student, Ayman Reda Guirguis, died in hospital of
gunshot wounds, security sources said.
Four other Copts were wounded when gunmen stormed the church on Wednesday
evening near the town of Abu Qurqas in Minya
province 240 km (150 miles) south of Cairo and sprayed bullets into a youth
meeting.
All the dead are members of Egypt's Coptic minority, who make up about 10
percent of the population. Police susapect the gunmen
were members of the militant Gama'a al-Islamiya (Islamic Group) but they have
made no arrrests and have not suggested a motive,
sources said. The Gama'a has attacked Christians in southern Egypt only
sporadically, concentrating its attacks on policemen and suspected police
informeres regardless of religion.
Islamist militants have also killed Christian jewellers and goldsmiths to
finance their operations, sometimes in the belief that
Christian property is a legitmate target.
But the last attack of similar scale on a Christian target was in March 1994,
when gunmen shot dead five Christians, including two
priests, outside a monastery in the south. Some members of the Gama'a denied
responsibility. None has been tried for that attack.
The security sources said Wednesday night's attack was the first
inside a church. The Gama'a, the largest of the militant Islamist groups in
Egypt, took up arms in 1992 in an attempt to overthrow
the government and turn the country into a strict Islamic state. More than
1,000 people have since been killed in political violence in
Egypt but the casualty rate has fallen sharply in the past year and police have
managed to restrict the Gama'a to hit-and-run
opereations in the south.
Minya province has been the centre of Gama'a activities for more than two
years, after moving north from Assiut province.
GO BACK
http://www.copts.com/14killed.htm
14 More Killed in Egyptian extremist attacks.
Copyright 1997 by United Press International / Fri, 14 Mar 1997 5:01:36 PST
LONDON, March 14 (UPI) -- Suspected Muslim extremists have killed 13 people in
central Egypt in the second major attack on
Coptic Christians in four weeks, the Interior Ministry said Friday. Suspected
militants killed another man in a separate attack on a
train in the same area, the ministry said.
The ministry told the German news agency DPA that gunmen attacked the small
Christian village of Ezbet Dawoud, about 270
miles (450 km) south of Cairo, on Thursday night.
The ministry said the suspected extremists fired indiscriminately at the
villagers sitting in front of their houses, said DPA, whose
report was monitored in London. Four Muslims were
among the 13 people shot dead. A few hours later, gunmen attacked a passenger
train on the Luxor- Cairo line near the same
village, killing one man and wounding six, the ministry said.
On Feb. 14, al-Gamaa al-Islamiya, or the Islamic Group, attacked a Coptic
Christian church in Abu Qirqas, a town in Minya
province in central Egypt, and killed 12 people attending a youth meeting.
More than 1,100 people have been killed and many more wounded in Egypt since
1992, when Muslim extremists started their
insurgency to replace the secular government with Iran-style theocratic rule.
WELCOME TO
FREE LEBANON'S PAGE
The World Lebanese Organization
A movement dedicated
To the FREEDOM, INDEPENDENCE, and SOVEREIGNTY of LEBANON
To the self determination of its Christian people, as well as to human rights and
democracy for all
people in the Middle East.
Lebanese Christians Concerned Because of the Sudden, Unilateral Withrawal of the
SLA from a Strategic
Position
Book review: "Expert praises the timing and substance of Dr W. Phares' Lebanese
Christian Nationalism"
Solida ? Kofi Anan: "Des Libanais Sont Toujours D?tenus en Syrie"
[FRENCH]
Lebanese Front Source Denies Internal Conflicts in the Security
Zone
"We Have Many Opinions on How to Struggle, But We are One"
Lebanese Front Source Dismisses Reports on Relocating the SLA to
Jordan
"Either Free and Alive or Dead and Enslaved on Our Soil"
Lebanon Bulletin Interviews the New Military Commander of Jezzine
Major Joseph Karam: "We Will Defend Our People at Any Price"
WLO and Opposition Groups Mourn Six "Martyrs in Free South Lebanon"
"These Christian Resistants Fell in Defense of the Free World"
US Human Rights Leader at WLO Forum in DC
Rev. Rederick: "South Lebanon's Christians Should be Protected"
Congr?s ? Washington sur la Situation des Chr?tiens du Liban [FRENCH]
Lebanese American Group Blasts Arab American Leadership
"They Do Not Represent Our Community, Nor Our Interests"
Hizbollah Condemns, Lebanese Front Supports US Strikes
WLO Praises the US for "Striking Back at Terrorism"
"The Underdogs of the Middle-East Feel Relieved"
Le Courant aouniste ou l'Auberge espagnole [FRENCH]
Pro-Syrian Lebanese Forces Leader is Appointed Head of Christian TV
Lebanese Forces Party SpokePersons Distance Themselves From Arrested
Fighters
"If the Anti-Syrian Attacks are by L.F., We Are Not" Says Malek, Offices
Abroad
Pierre Atallah Blasts the "Parisian Opposition", Accuses Aoun and Others of
"Megalomania"
The WLO Considers the Killing of 12 Year Old Salma Iskandar in Jezzine as "a
Massacre Against Childhood"
Responds to the Monitoring Committee: "Bombs Planted Among Civilians are Worse than
Intentional Acts, they
are War Crimes"
Human Rights Group Threatened by Beirut Regime
WLO Official Tells CBN: Little by Little, Lebanon is Emptied Of Its
Christians
La Coalition Pour Le Liban En Suede Lance Un Appel A Chirac A L'Occasion De La
Visite D'Assad A Paris:
"Sortez Les Syriens Du Pays" [FRENCH]
During Assad's Visit to France
Lebanese Human Rights Group Blasts the Syrian Occupation
Lebanese Opposition Explodes Against Assad in Paris
Six Arrested by Police, Factions Unite Against Syrian Occupation
The Lebanese Front Calls to Participate in the Paris Demonstration Against
Assad's Visit to "Reject the
Occupation and Liberate Lebanese Detainees in Syria"
"To Send the Right Message to Assad's Visit to Paris"
The WLO Endorses the French Committee For a Free Lebanon, Calls for Contacting
French Embassies and
Consulates Around the World
The Lebanese Front Accuses Ghazi Kanaan of Terror Crimes, Torture and
Assassinations, Calls for his Trial
by an International Tribunal
The WLO Publishes a Political Ad in the Washington Times
Phased Ethnic Cleansing of the Christian People of Lebanon, Syrian Occupation,
Political Islamization,
Demographic Arabization
WLO Conference in DC: A Benchmark in the Lebanese Christian Cause
Lebanese Front Leader Meets Human Rights Watch in New York and Accuses "Beirut's
Pro-Syrian Regime
of Abuses and Oppressive Campaigns"
Etienne Sakr Accuses the "Syrian Occupation of Masterminding Today's Terrorism in
Lebanon. They Are
Behind the U.S. Embassy Explosions, the Killing of Christian Activists
and More."
Lebanese Front Accuses Syrians of Assassinating a Father and Son in
Jezzine
"Colonel Maher Tufaily is Behind the Killing of Christians in South
Lebanon"
Lebanese Front Delegation Visits U.S. Congress Rep. Frank Wolf: "We Are Very
Concerned About the Fate
of the Christians of Lebanon"
The WLO was founded in September 1991. It is almost a new born with a very short
history but a long
list of accomplishments. WLO's motives are humanistic and its objectives are clear.
http://pw2.netcom.com/~us_copts/index.html
Report on Religious Freedom in Egypt--State Department
97/07/22
United States Policies in Support of Religious Freedom: Focus on Christians
Report Consistent with the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act, Fiscal Year
1997, House Report 3610
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor Affairs,
July 22, 1997.
Egypt
Current situation: Egypt's constitution provides for freedom of belief and the
practice of religious rites. For the most part, members
of the non-Muslim minorities worship without harassment and maintain links with
co-religionists abroad. However, Christians face
discrimination based on tradition and some aspects of the law, and there have
been instances of persecution of Christians in
Egypt in recent years. In addition, Christians have been the target of
terrorist groups seeking to overthrow the Government and
establish an Islamic state, and terrorists have killed dozens of Christians, as
well as hundreds of other citizens, in the past few
years, despite government efforts to protect the population.
While technically proselytizing is not a crime, authorities have charged a few
Muslim converts to Christianity under provisions of
the Penal Code that prohibit the use of religion to "ignite strife, degrade any
of the heavenly religions or harm national unity or social
peace." At least one Christian was detained in 1996 on charges of ridiculing or
insulting heavenly religions and/or inciting secular
strife under this law. In other cases authorities have used laws against
falsifying documents to prosecute Muslim converts to
Christianity, since such persons sometimes attempt to change their names and
religious affiliation on their identification cards and
other official documentation to reflect their conversion. There were credible
reports that in 1996 state security officers in
Cairo detained, interrogated, and, in at least two cases, physically abused
several converts to Christianity in an effort
to obtain information about the identities and activities of other converts.
There were also credible reports of at least
one similar case in 1995 involving several Christians and converts to
Christianity.
An 1856 Ottoman Decree still in force requires non-Muslims to obtain what is
now a presidential decree to build or
repair a place of worship. Coptic Christians maintain that they have frequently
been unable to obtain such
authorization, that such permits have been delayed, or that they have been
blocked by the security forces from using
authorizations that have been issued. The situation improved somewhat in the
1990's, as the Government increased the number
of permits issued to Christian communities. However, Egyptian Protestants who
are members of evangelical churches reportedly
believe that they currently face greater difficulties than Coptic Christians in
obtaining permission from the Government to build new
churches and repair old ones. Muslim and Christian reformers urge the abolition
of the Ottoman decree, but Islamists who oppose
the spread of Christianity defend the building restrictions. A local human
rights organization brought a legal case during 1996
requesting the abolition of the Ottoman Decree against Copts. The case remains
before the court.
In December 1996, the army demolished buildings under construction at a Coptic
farm and
training center for mentally disabled children. The Cheerful Heart Center had
not obtained all
necessary building permits, which are strictly controlled due to Egypt's scarce
supply of
agricultural land.
There were reports of forced conversions of Coptic children to Islam, but human
rights groups find
it extremely difficult to determine the actual degree of compulsion used, as
most cases involve a
Coptic girl converting to Islam to marry a Muslim boy. There are credible
reports of government
harassment of Christian families attempting to regain custody of their
daughters, and of the failure
of the authorities to uphold the law prohibiting marriages of minors without
the approval of the
guardian.
The Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood--an illegal political
organization--stated in April 1997 that once Egypt became "an
Islamic state" Coptic Christians could not serve in the army because in a
conflict with a Christian country they "could change their
allegiance and become agents of the enemy." This statement aroused a furor
among Egyptians, and President Hosni Mubarak, in
his Labor Day speech later that month, emphasized that the Copts are "an
integral part" of the "national fabric," and "honorable
citizens" who enjoy "equal rights and duties."
Both extremists and ordinary citizens have committed acts of violence against
churches and Copt-owned businesses. Rumors of
church repairs or building without permits occasionally have resulted in
anti-Christian rioting by citizens. In one incident in the
village of Kafr Demyan, local newspapers reported that the rioters were incited
by Muslim preachers who utilized mosque
loudspeakers to call for retaliation against the perceived violations. Copts
also report extortion of money by terrorists, who threaten
to kill the person or his family if money is not paid. The Government, the
media, and senior Muslim clergy have strongly and
publicly condemned such acts.
Terrorists continue to attack churches and properties belonging to Christians
and to target and kill Christian
believers. In February 1997, gunmen attacked a prayer meeting at a Coptic
church in the village of Al Fikriya, killing
nine young Christians and wounding six. The gunmen killed another Christian
while escaping, and the bodies of three
others were found in nearby fields 24 hours later. After this incident, the
Muslim clergymen in the four highest
religious positions in Egypt visited the scene to express their condolences to
the families and Christian clergy. The
Government condemned the attack and agreed to pay restitution to the victims'
families. Police routinely guard Coptic churches;
however, no police were on duty at the time of this incident. The Government is
investigating the absence of police. In a shoot-out
in April, police killed two alleged perpetrators of the attack.
In March 1997, suspected Muslim extremists opened fire in the predominantly
Christian village of Ezbet Dawoud, killing 9 Coptic
Christians and 4 Muslims, and wounding 15 others. Later that night, gunmen
fired at a Cairo-bound train outside the village, killing
one person and wounding six others. The Government and the media strongly
condemned the attack, and the nation's leading
Muslim clergymen also visited the scene. Terrorists killed 22 Coptic Christians
in 1996, including a group of 8 in Assiyut in
February. Terrorists killed at least 30 Christians in 1995 and at least 9 in
1994.
U.S. Government actions: The U.S. Ambassador and senior embassy officials
maintain contacts with the various Christian
communities at the highest levels, including Pope Shenouda III, leader of the
Coptic Church, and Dr. Samuel Habib, President of
the Council of the Protestant
Churches of Egypt. Through these contacts and through contacts with human
rights organizations, the Embassy monitors reports of
religious persecution and discrimination. For example, in April 1997, in
response to a request from Religious Freedom International,
the Embassy investigated allegations of discrimination against the Kasr
Al-Dobara Evangelical Church in an ongoing legal case.
Embassy officers, in talking with church officials and attorneys, found that
the church was not suffering discrimination. They
continue to monitor the case.
The Embassy also maintains a continuous dialogue with the Government of Egypt
on all human rights issues. Embassy actions
regarding individual human rights cases are part of this ongoing dialogue. The
U.S. Government publicly and firmly condemned the
killings of Coptic Christians by terrorists.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note well: There are also Orthodox Christians in Egypt.
GS
OpaTennant wrote:
Egypt's Endangered Christians
After Violent Attacks, Ancient Coptic Minority Fears It
Has Become the Target of Islamic Militants
By John Lancaster
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, March 18 1997; Page A12
The Washington Post
EZBET DAWOUD, Egypt -- The most striking memory of the surviving villagers, when
they
describe the horror of what happened here, is how peaceful everything had seemed.
It was just after dusk. Jadala Mansour, 46, worked behind the counter of his tiny
tailor's shop while
an assistant hunched over a sewing machine. A few steps away, Fadel Hanafi chatted
with four
friends in front of his small grocery shop, the one with the banana tree out front.
It didn't seem to matter then that Hanafi, a father of 11, was Muslim and the four
other men were
Coptic Christians. Now it seems to matter a great deal.
In a bloody spasm of violence and terror, gunmen believed to be Islamic militants,
wielding assault
rifles and wearing masks and military fatigues, walked into this predominantly
Christian hamlet 300
miles south of Cairo around 6:30 p.m. on Thursday and shot everyone in sight. The
four-minute
assault killed 13 men -- nine of them Copts -- including Mansour and his assistant
as well as Hanafi
and his four Coptic friends.
The attack was the second of its kind in a month and one of the bloodiest against
Egypt's Christian
minority since 1991, when Islamic militants launched a violent campaign against the
secular,
military-backed government of President Hosni Mubarak. On Feb. 12, gunmen killed
nine Christians
while they attended a youth meeting at a Coptic church in Abu Qurqas, 160 miles to
the north.
Although Egyptian security forces have clearly gained the upper hand in their
battle against Islamic
extremists during the last several years, the spate of recent attacks has reminded
Egyptians of the
militants' continued capacity for mayhem. In particular, they have reinforced a
sense of vulnerability
among Christians -- who make up roughly 10 percent of Egypt's 60 million people --
in a
predominantly Islamic country where some Muslim militants regard them as heretics
and even the
government seems to consider them second-class citizens.
"Clearly there have been enough incidents and they've been dramatic and bloody
enough that it
probably goes beyond random acts of violence," said Virginia Sherry, associate
director of Human
Rights Watch/Middle East in New York. "The question is whether orders are being
given at some
level within the militant hierarchy to carry this out."
Although Egyptian police say both attacks were the work of the Islamic Group,
Egypt's main militant
Islamic organization, they have yet to produce evidence for that claim. After the
church massacre, an
Islamic Group spokesman denied responsibility for the attack, but was then
contradicted by another
spokesman. Some analysts said this suggests the organization has splintered.
In a statement sent to international news agencies Saturday, the Islamic Group
denied the attack in
Ezbet Dawoud, accusing Egyptian security forces of organizing the slaughter to
discredit the militants.
Egyptian police have named three Islamic Group members as suspects in the killings.
Since 1991, more than 1,000 people on all sides have died in political violence in
Egypt, a key U.S.
ally and partner in the Middle East peace process. But the militants are now on the
defensive.
Government security forces have killed or driven abroad many of their top leaders
and jailed
thousands of rank-and-file sympathizers.
As a result, militants who once staged high-profile attacks on government officials
and tourists in
Cairo and other major cities are now largely confined to hit-and-run operations
against police in the
sugar-cane fields and mud-brick villages of Upper Egypt. Overall, the level of
violence has dropped
from a peak of 415 deaths in 1995 to 187 last year, according to the Ibn Khaldoun
Center, a Cairo
research organization.
"Why are they giving this priority to attacking Copts?" asked Hana Mustafa, an
expert on extremist
violence at the government-backed al-Ahram Center for Strategic Studies. "I think
it was a long time
since they had a high-profile attack and maybe the Copts represent an easier target
than assassinating
a politician."
Egypt is the home of the Coptic faith -- known here as the Church of St. Mark --
and has been since
before the advent of Islam. While most of Egypt's Copts adhere to the Orthodox
faith, some are
affiliated with the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches.
But despite their long history in Egypt, Coptic Christians, who often have a small
blue crucifix
tattooed on the inside of one wrist, have long occupied an ambiguous place in a
country where Islam
has become the official religion.
Copts are grossly underrepresented in the upper reaches of government and the army,
for example,
and are still subject to 19th-century Ottoman law that sharply restricts their
ability to build or repair a
church. Religion is noted on government identity cards. In the past, human rights
organizations have
complained that official discrimination against Copts "fuels intolerance and --
intentionally or not --
sets the stage for anti-Christian violence by Islamic militants," according to a
1994 report by Human
Rights Watch/Middle East.
Mubarak's government recently has moved to redress some of these grievances by,
among other
things, ordering Muslim preachers to refrain from describing Copts in their sermons
as infidels,
according to human rights monitors. Police guards have been posted outside Coptic
churches.
But the Copts remain especially vulnerable to militant violence, in part because
they are often
suspected of collaborating with police and also because of their relative
prosperity. Militants have
been known to rob jewelry stores owned by Copts as a means of financing their
operations.
Copts are a majority in Ezbet Dawoud, a hamlet of one- and two-story mud-brick
homes bisected
by a putrid drainage ditch. The hamlet is attached to the larger village of
Baghora, where the skyline is
dominated by the handsome brick spires of the church -- one of four in Baghora --
of Mary Girgas
Kibir.
The attackers approached from the direction of the church, villagers said, firing
at everyone they
encountered. "Every night they sit out here," said Saleh Fadel, 17, describing how
his father and his
four Coptic friends were slain in front of the family grocery store. "Three people
came and they
started shooting at them. When I heard the shooting, I hid in the shop."
He emerged to find his father sprawled on his back next to the drainage ditch,
fatally wounded by
gunshots to the chest.
After the rampage, the gunmen fled into dense sugar-cane fields. An hour later,
attackers presumed
to be the same men fired on a train heading north to Cairo, killing a 40-year-old
woman and
wounding six men.
Whatever sectarian tensions lurk beneath the surface here, Muslims and Christians
have been coping
with their grief together. They scattered lentils on bloodstained earth to ward off
evil spirits and, on
Saturday, mingled at memorial services for the dead.
"Here there is no difference between us," said Halim Weesa, 70, a prosperous
Christian landowner
paying his condolences to Muslim friends at a mourning tent in Ezbet Dawoud. "We
are all one
family."
Together in Egypt
Friday, April 11 1997; Page A26
The Washington Post
John Lancaster's news story dated March 18 accurately describes the common
bonds and shared feelings between Muslims and Christians in the face of the threat
of
terrorism, as summed up by the quotation of the Christian landowner paying his
condolences to his Muslim friends: "We are all one family."
He also highlights how terrorists do not discriminate in their targets, killing
Muslim
and Christian alike. Moreover, he illustrates how the level of violence has dropped
tremendously in recent years, as Egyptian security forces, supported by the people,
have gained the upper hand.
All these facts clearly contradict the headline on the article, "Egypt's Endangered
Christians," which is misleading and raises false and baseless alarms about the
fate of
Copts in Egypt at a time when the situation on the ground is not only improving
dramatically but also where the government, as Mr. Lancaster details, is addressing
any grievances of the people, including our Coptic brothers.
Furthermore, to claim that the government seems to consider Copts second-class
citizens is groundless and provocative. Christians in Egypt have always enjoyed
equal
rights and privileges along with their Muslim brethren and have occupied key posts
in
parliament, the government and many international organizations.
Terrorism and extremism of different sorts have posed many challenges around the
world in recent years. In Egypt, Muslims and Christians -- unified under the
leadership of President Hosni Mubarak -- have been able to confront this challenge
successfully and have united to achieve impressive economic progress, particularly
in
the last two years, along with the hopeful, continuous progress in the peace
process.
AHMED MAHER EL SAYED
Ambassador
Embassy of the Arab Republic of Egypt
Washington
We are no longer "Together in Egypt"
Dear Mr. Ambassador,
In, your letter to the Washington Post dated April 11 1997, you describes Mr.
Lancaster s article "Egypt's Endangered Christians" as
"misleading and raises false and baseless alarms about the fate of
Copts in Egypt." As an Egyptian Christian who grow up in Egypt and very familiar
with the current situation that Christians are faced
with in Egypt under your government, I must say that your letter to the post is the
misleading one. In your letter you claim that Christians
have enjoyed equal rights in Egypt. Now, do you consider the following facts as
part of the equal rights you are claiming?
There has not been a single Christians appointed to the judicial system since
1986.
Christians are not allowed to build or even repair their own churches without
a presidential decree (only 20 giving a year)..
The governing party (President Mubarak's party and yours as well) has not
nominated any Christians on its ticket in the past
parliaments election. Therefor, after faking the election, Christians were
left with no representatives in their own parliament (15%
of Egyptians are Christians).
Christians students are not allowed to join the police academy or any military
school.
Christians have no time allocated in public TV or Radio broadcasting to air
their religious services, while Muslims clerics have
almost half of the TV and Radio time to publicly insult Christians and call
them infidels.
Christians are asked to provide their religion on their ID cards and all job
applications.
Mr. Ambassador, the list goes on. It is clear to the international community that
Christians have no Hhuman Rights in Egypt. I would
have liked to see you admitting that there are problems with the system and that
your government is taking serious steps to correct the
problems, rather than trying to mislead the American public. I must tell you
though, the truth is out and your false claims will no longer
count. The international community realizes that we are "Egypt's Endangered
Christians" and they are talking the necessary steps to
label Egypt as a raciest Country and sanctions are on the way (Look at the
recommended sanctions from the Council of the City of New
York).
Mr. Ambassador, your government is as bad as South Africa used to be and I promise
you that all Egyptian Christians around the world
are doing their best to expose your government. WE are no longer "Together in
Egypt", it is only YOU!
Sincerely,
Michael Meunier
Back to US_COPTS
OpaTennant
Before beginning my reply to Abdulrahman's posting in response to my own, I
would first like to thank him for such a courteous, informative, and
thought-provoking reply, instead of the usual shouting, insults, and emotional
attacks that are more typical of posters' reponses to things they disagree with
in this group. Why can't we have a lot more postings of this type in our group,
as it definitely encourages people to air their opinions much more openly and
also raises both the tone and level of content. After all, diversity of opinion
is what makes for an interesting NG (and one of the reasons I stay with this
group) and we all learn a little something from the perspective of others even
if we don't end up necessarily acceping their point of view.
Anyway, now to respond to Abdulrahman's posting:
linask (Abdulrahman) wrote in message
<6u89ma$n04$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>(OpaTennant) wrote:
>> Sostratus wrote
>> >APoulaki wrote
>> >> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father was
>> >>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
>> >>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
identity.
>> >Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>>
>> Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
which
>> includes both Jews and Christians.
>It is true.
In this posting I think we have to make a distinction between two different
things: intermarriage and conversion. In the case of the former, I am still not
convinced that a Muslim is not permitted to marry one of the other people of
the book, or perhaps it is only the man who is allowed to do so?
>> >Koran forbids the
>> >muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a
punishment
>> >the death.
>> From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my
knowledge,
>> it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna.
>According to Sharia, Muslim's converting to other religion(riddah) is
>punishable by death. Unfortunately I don't know what is daleel shar'i for
>such decision of Islamic scholars but it is certain that ALL FOUR Islamic
>school(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali) consider this capital offense. There
>is no mention about riddah in Qur'an(I suppose). So the daleel should be
>either from Sunnah(Hadith) or from Ijmah al-Sahabah(consensus of the
>Companions of Prophet).
Judging from your FIRST name below and from your apparent knowledgeability of
the topic as demonstrated in your response, I am persuaded to accept your
statements on this issue. However, I am a little confused here. If "riddah" is
not in Qu'ran, as I had suspected, then how can the "daleel" form the basis for
Shariya, as the Haddith/Sunnah do not carry sufficient weight for such a
serious judgment, and the consensus even less.
The whole issue of conversion is an interesting one, especially in Islam. IMHO
the Islamic religion historically has shown far greater tolerance towards other
faiths (at least towards people of the book) than has Christianity. However, if
one is already a Muslim and rejects his faith, that is another matter
altogether, especially since Islam is a religion predominantly based (at least
theoretically) on knowledge, rather than blind faith. On the other hand, heresy
or apostacy is not tolerated very well by Christianity either, as I pointed out
in the case of the Egyptian Copts. Moreover, Christians did not hesitate to
torture or put to death anyone who even hinted that the Church was wrong, as is
so amply illustrated in the history of the inquisition. They were just as quick
to put to death (often without formal judgment) infidels, as were the Turks and
the Shiite Muslim zealots in Iran.
>> when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
>> intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
>> Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
>> learning, from Coptic Christianity
>to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
>> of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life
(the
>> scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
>> (considered dead and disinherited).
>I think that this fellow was disinherited not because of his family's hatred
>due to his conversion.
Oh, there was hatred involved alright, of the most venomous kind. They could
have disinherited him without mutilating him and nearly beating him to death,
not to mention barring all contact with him henceforth and evermore; for them,
he is dead. As I mentioned in my other posting, I have also experienced the
hatred of the Copts. One such instance involved a very good man whom I was
dating who was a Muslim (not convert from the Coptic faith). I was renting a
flat from a Coptic man who had been very nice to me until he found out that my
friend was Muslim, whereupon he threw me out into the street (bag and baggage),
spat upon me, and called me the most heinous things imaginable! Needless to
say, I was totally traumatized by the experience, as I found it inconceivable
that a person could suddenly turn so vicious and especially after having
enjoyed cordial relations with my landlord the entire time I lived there. In
contrast, as a result of my having been rendered suddenly homeless with no idea
of where to go, numerous Muslim families came forward and offered to take me in
until I could find another place to live. Not only did they not pry into my own
religious beliefs, but they told me not to judge the Copts too harshly, as it
they constitute a minority and hence feel threatened; besides, it is against
Islam, they argued, to retaliate in kind.
Obviously, the above cases are extreme examples of the Copts harsh treatment
of Muslims and people who associate with them socially, and consequently I
tried to overlook such instances. However, I found the same experience repeated
daily in dealings with the Copts but on a far lesser level, e.g., entering a
shop, accompanied by my Egyptian girlfriend or-- worst yet, my male friend--
owned by Copts, and being refused service or told to leave, etc.
According to Muslim sharia law, a Muslim cannot
>inherit from a non Muslim, neither non Muslim from a Muslim. Therefore if
>this fellow has adopted Islam he has lost his rights to heritage according to
>SHARIAH LAW as long as his family remains Christian. Also if the father
>converts to Islam and dies, but his son remains Christian, the son will not
>inherit from his father.
>The fact that Copts are strongly opposed towards conversion is obvious fact.
>They are extremely proud of their religion which they consider to be the most
>pure and ancient Christianity(I think it is perhaps true).
Purer than Greek Orthodoxy even? Which came first or did they develop around
the same time? I know that they claim to have the head of John the Baptist and
other such ancient relics of Cristianity but to be perfectly honest I know next
to nothing about the Copts, nor did they ever give me a chance to question them
about their faith.
>They also think
>that they, and not Muslim Egyptians, are "true Egyptians" because they
>conserve(only as liturgic language) the Coptic language which is issued from
>Old Egyptian language.
Your comment about the Coptic language being derived from anicent Egyptian is
very interesting. The official name of the language employed by the Copts in
their liturgy, as well as by the church in Ethiopa, is Amharic. Also, I think
(but am not certain) that the Armenian Church also uses Amharic, which I find
even more interesting given the vast distance separating the peoples in
question. However, I was not aware that the origin of Amharic is ancient
Egyptian; it doesn't seem to bear any direct resemblance to me. Moreover, it
has always been my understanding that Amharic is an ancient Semitic language.
Also, where would the Armenians fit in in that case? (BTW, Amharic is still the
official language of Ethiopia.)
>Also do to their confessional isolation they haven't
>mixed with Arabs, Turks and others and preserved the genotype of Old
>Egyptians.
>
>
This comment is even more interesting, as that is my own personal observation
as well. The Copts are a strikingly beautiful people and their physical
features are often very reminiscent of those of figures one sees in the various
tomb depictions, with the exception of coloration. The figures depicted in the
tombs tend to be fairly dark in complexion, whereas Copts are a very
lightskinned people and resemble Armenians more than Egyptians. As for the
non-Coptic Egyptians, they tend to be a very mixed breed, even discounting the
Nubians in the South who are an altogether different people. But this is
understandable, given Egypt's history and location. In any event, THEY
certainly do not resemble the figures in the tombs.
>Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
A very interesting name indeed; quite a mixture. May I inquire as to its
origin? (I know it's none of my business, but I am very curious, as you seem
very knowledgeable re things Islamic and your first name is, after all, a
Muslim one. Are you an Islamic scholar?)
Krisztina
OpaTennant
Galina wrote in message
<3607CB56...@erols.com>
>For your education:
>
> C:\WINDOWS\DESKTOP\www_copts_com.html
>
>
and a whole lot of other things in her subsequent two messages. It looks like
my former posting has thrown her into a real tizzy. Anway, guess I'll be up
typing into the wee hours of the morning in an effort to set some of the things
she wrote straight for the record.
Really, Galina, you should try to follow Abduhrahman's example and be a little
more balanced in your responses.
See ya later. Right now, I have to get back to work, as replying to
Abdulrahman's posting took up a considerable chunk of time. In the meantime,
try to get a grip on yourself so that we can have a meaningful discussion on
the topic, unless, that is, you've suddenly converted to the Coptic faith, in
which case there is no hope for any discussion, given my past experience with
Copts (G).
the supposed (???) "Krisztina"
(Does the above allusion mean that you think I am really secretly SATAN SLOVO
HERETIC?) >:->
OpaTennant
Abdurrahman wrote in message
<6u8d5n$qth$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<snipped for the time being, as all of the interesting and enlightening points
covered in Abdurrahman's posting will be addressed in a later posting tonight
(it looks like I may not get any sleep at all this evening at this rate!).
Just wanted to thank you for yet another very interesting and informative
posting. You are quite a fascinating and knowledgeable fellow, Abdurrahman. I
must confess that you have me greatly intrigued as to your real identity and
background. Hope you'll stay with our group for a while.
Unfortunately, I can't respond to your post right now, as I have to get back to
work and responding to your other posting took quite a big chunk out of my
worktime. Anyway, I need to give some serious thought to what you've written in
order to be able to respond intelligently.
In the meantime, I look forward to your reply to my other posting to you
regarding intermarriage, conversion, etc.
Krisztina
Gustav Horvath
belo...@my-dejanews.com
lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
> > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to
reduce
> > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of decades.
>
> What you mean by the City, there is lots of cities in the world.
There is only one City.
> Perhaps you mean Istambul.(hn Poln)
>
> In relation with this I would like to list here the names of this glorious
> city which she had in the cource of history:
>
> Byzantion, from VII-VI year before Common Era(CE) Constantinopolis, from IV
> century CE hn Poln(i poli), in everyday Rum(Romaic, Hellenic)) language
> Qostantiniyye, as called in Arabic and in official Ottoman documents Istambul
> which was presumably derived from Romaic(Hellenic) stnv Poln( pronouced
> stimboli), meaning in(to) the City)
Constantinople for the greatest majority of its history has been Hellenic in
nature and culture.
> The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
> masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God). For
> centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
> the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
> the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of God
> be upon him).
"and later by the decree of God it passed into Ottoman hands" What kind of
statement is that? Are you saying that God gave permission to the turks to
invade, kill, rape and pillage the City and its Hellenic inhabitants? Because
if you say, yes, than it is also by Gods decree that Arabs be the slaves of
the Israelis and must therefore accept the current situation, which is a very
bad one, they are in.
> Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic: such
> obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine Wisdom
> and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound his
> glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
The church of Agia Sophia was built as a church in the name of Jesus Christ
and not Allah. It would be a damnation upon those people who would attempt
to make it into a mosque again. The turks have no need for another mosque.
The mosques of Sultanahmed and Suleyimaniye are enough and big enough in
order to accomodate any religious services in the City.
> By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
> converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name Muhammad:
> Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year 1453
> will never disappear from Muslim hearts.
"The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the arrival
of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is awaiting
the return of his children."
Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May the
children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the Hellenes
tenfold.
Pali me xpovia, pali dika mas 8a eivai
lin...@hotmail.com
> Also Szekely area in Erdely(around the town of Csik
> Szereda) is also, as shown in map less wooded and mountanous than surrounding
> areas inhabited by Olah(Rumanians).
I owe some correction here. I wrote this without seeing the map. However on
the map the area of Csik Szereda is marked as hilly and mountainous. On the
contrary the area between Maros Vasarhely and Kolozsvar is relatively flat
and woodless. If I am true all these areas are populated mostly by Magyars.
Could somebody explain me about the origin of Szekely: are they of
Magyar(Ugro-Finic) stock or Magyarized Turks(as Kun - Cumans)? It seems they
were settled by Hungarian kings as border guards in XII or XIII, thus they
didn't came together with prince Arpad.
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
opate...@aol.com (OpaTennant) wrote:
>
> Abdurrahman wrote in message
> <6u8d5n$qth$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
> <snipped for the time being, as all of the interesting and enlightening points
> covered in Abdurrahman's posting will be addressed in a later posting tonight
> (it looks like I may not get any sleep at all this evening at this rate!).
>
> Just wanted to thank you for yet another very interesting and informative
> posting. You are quite a fascinating and knowledgeable fellow, Abdurrahman. I
> must confess that you have me greatly intrigued as to your real identity and
> background. Hope you'll stay with our group for a while.
My nationalty is Lithuanian. I live in Vilnius, the capital of the country.
Abdurrahman is the name I assumed during my conversion to Islam. I hope this
answers you questions.
By the way are you Greek(since you write in soc.culture,greek) or
Hungarian(how I presume from the orthography of your name and your comments)?
lin...@hotmail.com
> linask (Abdulrahman) wrote in message
> <6u89ma$n04$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
> >(OpaTennant) wrote:
>
> >> Sostratus wrote
>
> >> >APoulaki wrote
>
> >> >> Greeks and Turks have intermarried for centuries. If the father
was
> >> >>Turkish his decendence were Muslim and lost their Greek identity. If the
> >> >>father was Greek his decendence were Christian and lost there Turkish
> identity.
>
> >> >Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
> >>
> >> Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
> which
> >> includes both Jews and Christians.
>
> >It is true.
> In this posting I think we have to make a distinction between two different
> things: intermarriage and conversion. In the case of the former, I am still
> not convinced that a Muslim is not permitted to marry one of the other people
> of the book, or perhaps it is only the man who is allowed to do so?
>
Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women, their children authomatically
become Muslims. Muslim women can marry only Muslim men.
> >> >Koran forbids the
> >> >muslims from changing their religion to Christianism, having as a
> punishment
> >> >the death.
>
> >> From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my
> knowledge,
> >> it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna.
>
> >According to Sharia, Muslim's converting to other religion(riddah) is
> >punishable by death. Unfortunately I don't know what is daleel shar'i for
> >such decision of Islamic scholars but it is certain that ALL FOUR Islamic
> >school(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, Hanbali) consider this capital offense. There
> >is no mention about riddah in Qur'an(I suppose). So the daleel should be
> >either from Sunnah(Hadith) or from Ijmah al-Sahabah(consensus of the
> >Companions of Prophet).
>
> Judging from your FIRST name below and from your apparent knowledgeability of
> the topic as demonstrated in your response, I am persuaded to accept your
> statements on this issue. However, I am a little confused here. If "riddah" is
> not in Qu'ran, as I had suspected, then how can the "daleel" form the basis
for
> Shariya, as the Haddith/Sunnah do not carry sufficient weight for such a
> serious judgment, and the consensus even less.
Hadith if it is authentic carries the same weight as Qur'anic verse. The word
and example of Prophet(pbuh) is law for Muslims. Qur'an says "Obey God and
his Messenger". The consensus of Sahaba(companions of Prophet(pbuh)) is also
considered as certain daleel since is inimaginable that all companions
together would disobey Prophet(pbuh) or misunderstand his command. Thus the
ijma' al-sahaba is sure indice that Prophet(pbuh) told companion to do so or
has approved their actions.
> >> when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
> >> intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church. I know personally a man in
> >> Egypt who converted, after serious study at Al Azhar, the seat of Islamic
> >> learning, from Coptic Christianity
> >to Islam who suffered horribly at the hands
> >> of hisown family. He was literally beaten to within an inch of his life
> (the
> >> scars are still quite visible on his back) and driven out of his family
> >> (considered dead and disinherited).
>
> >I think that this fellow was disinherited not because of his family's hatred
> >due to his conversion.
>
> Oh, there was hatred involved alright, of the most venomous kind. They could
> have disinherited him without mutilating him and nearly beating him to death,
> not to mention barring all contact with him henceforth and evermore;
I I have told below this fellow probably would have been disinherited even if
his family would have accepted his conversion, because Muslim cannot inherit
from Christian. The beating and hatred is another thing.
for them,
> he is dead. As I mentioned in my other posting, I have also experienced the
> hatred of the Copts. One such instance involved a very good man whom I was
> dating who was a Muslim (not convert from the Coptic faith). I was renting a
> flat from a Coptic man who had been very nice to me until he found out that my
> friend was Muslim, whereupon he threw me out into the street (bag and
baggage),
> spat upon me, and called me the most heinous things imaginable! Needless to
> say, I was totally traumatized by the experience, as I found it inconceivable
> that a person could suddenly turn so vicious and especially after having
> enjoyed cordial relations with my landlord the entire time I lived there.
I have once discussed about religious matter with a Copt on e-mail. He told
me even that "Islam is Antichrist's faith because according to 1 letter of
John in NT , everone who denies that Jesus(as) is God(hasha) who assumed
human aspect is condidered an antichrist. I read this verses of 1 John and to
my mind it onlt tell that antichrist is that who says that Jesus wasn't
human(docetist sect which affirmed that Jesus was purely God with only
apparent form of man).
> According to Muslim sharia law, a Muslim cannot
> >inherit from a non Muslim, neither non Muslim from a Muslim. Therefore if
> >this fellow has adopted Islam he has lost his rights to heritage according to
> >SHARIAH LAW as long as his family remains Christian. Also if the father
> >converts to Islam and dies, but his son remains Christian, the son will not
> >inherit from his father.
>
> >The fact that Copts are strongly opposed towards conversion is obvious fact.
> >They are extremely proud of their religion which they consider to be the most
> >pure and ancient Christianity(I think it is perhaps true).
>
> Purer than Greek Orthodoxy even? Which came first or did they develop around
> the same time? I know that they claim to have the head of John the Baptist and
> other such ancient relics of Cristianity but to be perfectly honest I know
next
> to nothing about the Copts, nor did they ever give me a chance to question
them
> about their faith.
>
I think it is true because Coptic Church broke from Greek Orthodox after
Chalcedonian council in 451. Afterwards thay were alaways minority faith,
sometimes persecuted, and firmly stuck to old traditions.
> >They also think
> >that they, and not Muslim Egyptians, are "true Egyptians" because they
> >conserve(only as liturgic language) the Coptic language which is issued from
> >Old Egyptian language.
>
> Your comment about the Coptic language being derived from anicent Egyptian is
> very interesting. The official name of the language employed by the Copts in
> their liturgy, as well as by the church in Ethiopa, is Amharic.
You are completely wrong. Lithurgic language of Coptic Church is Coptic and
not Amharic. Amharic is official language of Ethiopia. However Etrhiopian
Church use Geez, Old Ethiopian, which is more closely related to Tigre and
Tigrinya in North Ethiopia and Erithrea, than to Amharic. Armenian Church
uses Old Armenian(grabar - book language), perhaps New Armenian as well.
Also, I think
> (but am not certain) that the Armenian Church also uses Amharic, which I find
> even more interesting given the vast distance separating the peoples in
> question. However, I was not aware that the origin of Amharic is ancient
> Egyptian;
Origins of Amaharic(South Ethiopian subgroup) and Geez, Tigre, Tigrinya(North
Ethiopian) is Semitic. It is presumed that both Semitic and Egyptian-Coptic
languages belong to Afroasiatic group, but their relationship is not greater
than between Hungarian and Finnish, i.e, practically no resemblance. Therefore
the relationship between Coptic and Semitic is not very certain.
it doesn't seem to bear any direct resemblance to me. Moreover, it
> has always been my understanding that Amharic is an ancient Semitic language.
> Also, where would the Armenians fit in in that case? (BTW, Amharic is still
the
> official language of Ethiopia.)
Armenian language is Indoeuropean, not Semitic.
> >Also do to their confessional isolation they haven't
> >mixed with Arabs, Turks and others and preserved the genotype of Old
> >Egyptians.
> >
> >
> This comment is even more interesting, as that is my own personal observation
> as well. The Copts are a strikingly beautiful people and their physical
> features are often very reminiscent of those of figures one sees in the
various
> tomb depictions, with the exception of coloration. The figures depicted in the
> tombs tend to be fairly dark in complexion, whereas Copts are a very
> lightskinned people and resemble Armenians more than Egyptians.
It is probably that Copts especially in Lower Egypt had a lot of mixing with
Greeks(in Ptolomean, Roman, and Byzantine epochs).
Also it is possible that depictings turned darker with the course of time
Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
> A very interesting name indeed; quite a mixture. May I inquire as to its
> origin?
L. stands here for Linas and this is my first name is passport. Abdurrahman is
name I assumed on conversion. Kondratas is a usual family name in Lithuania
probably derived from German Konrad through Slavic Kondratiy.
(I know it's none of my business, but I am very curious, as you seem
> very knowledgeable re things Islamic and your first name is, after all, a
> Muslim one. Are you an Islamic scholar?)
>
Not I am not a scholar, but of course I want to know better my deen.
lin...@hotmail.com
belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6u87hn$kj6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
> > > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to
> reduce
> > > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of
decades.
> Constantinople for the greatest majority of its history has been Hellenic in
> nature and culture.
I would rather say it was Roman or Romaic, but not Hellenic. Christian
inhabitants of Constantinopolis called themselves Romaioi and not Hellenoi.
> > The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
> > masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God). For
> > centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
> > the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> > God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
> > the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of God
> > be upon him).
>
> "and later by the decree of God it passed into Ottoman hands" What kind of
> statement is that? Are you saying that God gave permission to the turks to
> invade, kill, rape and pillage the City and its Hellenic inhabitants?
You exaggerate about killing, rape and pillage. Of course, it happens in
every war. Byzatine emperors weren't any better. There was one Byzantine
basileus who is called "Bolgaroboytza"(killer of Bulgarians).
Because
> if you say, yes, than it is also by Gods decree that Arabs be the slaves of
> the Israelis and must therefore accept the current situation, which is a very
> bad one, they are in.
You are perfectly true. It is God's decree. Everything happens by God's
decree. However it doesn't mean that Arabs must accept the current situation.
But they will reconquer Palestine only if God allows them to do this. If you
Hellenes try to reconquer the City you will not be successful until God
allows it to you. Read more about God's action in history in the book of OT,
especially prophetic books.
> > Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic: such
> > obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine
Wisdom
> > and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound
his
> > glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
>
> The church of Agia Sophia was built as a church in the name of Jesus Christ
It was build in the name of God and not in the name of a prophet. When
Justinianus has built it the Law of Prophet Jesus(as) was still valid at that
time. It was before God sent Muhammad(pbuh).
> and not Allah.It would be a damnation upon those people who would
attempt
> to make it into a mosque again. The turks have no need for another mosque.
> The mosques of Sultanahmed and Suleyimaniye are enough and big enough in
> order to accomodate any religious services in the City.
You have no right to tell turks what they have right and what they not in
their own land. Istanbul is MUSLIM and TURKISH and I pray God Allmighty that
it would remain so until the day of Qiyamah.
> > By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
> > converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name Muhammad:
> > Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year 1453
> > will never disappear from Muslim hearts.
>
> "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the arrival
> of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is awaiting
> the return of his children."
You should be ashamed to used such expression as "turkish dogs".
> Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May the
> children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
> receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the Hellenes
> tenfold.
May the rulers of the house of Osman get high ranks in the Paradise for the
services they made for Islamic Faith.
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
Jon Papadimitriou <evry...@geocities.nospam.com> wrote:
> lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
> > masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God). For
> > centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
> > the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> > God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
> > the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of God
> > be upon him).
>
> him". But for "Mohammed", you say "peace and blessings of God be upon him".
> Why is there this differentiation in the Muslim faith??
It is perfectly okay to refer Muhammad(pbuh) only with "peace be upon
him"(alayhissalam) but because Muhammad is Seal of Prophets, the last and
greatest of Prophets he is often referred with some more elaborated formula.
> You seem to know a lot about the Islamic faith. I would like to ask you a
> simple question. It is forbidden for non-Muslims to enter the city of Mecca
> (Makkah). Is there something in the Koran or some other Islamic religious
> book that forbids this, or is it just a man made law in Saudi Arabia. I have
> heard that one of Mohammed's best friends was Christian and he lived in > >
Mecca, so it seems that the prohibition is contrary to Mohammed's teachings.
This friend which you refer to is probably Waraqa bin Nawfal. He died before
Muhammed(pbuh) started his prophetic mission. I think (I am not sure) that
the prohibition for Christian and Jews to reside and enter into Mecca and
Medinah was instituted by Muhammed(pbuh) somewhere at the end of life, maybe
after he(pbuh) captured Mecca in 630. I only guess, I haven't seen a relevant
Hadith.
OpaTennant
At last I have some time to properly reply to your post. Don't know how
coherent my response will be, given the late hour and my fatigued state, but
here goes:
linask (Abdurrahman) wrote in message
><6u8d5n$qth$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>(OpaTennant) wrote:
>> In Hungary, however, the Turks held
>> sway for 150 years and there was little, if any, mixing there, as not only
was
>> the time period much shorter but the Turks were very much hated there in
light
>> of the enormous amount of destruction they carried out. Not only was the
>> Hungarian population greatly decimated (and many of those who were not
killed
>> were taken into slavery), but the land was devastated as well.
>The land and population was decimated primarily by the wars which raged
>between Ottomans and Habsburgs. I don't think that Ottomans had special
>intent to ravage Hungary. However ever shifting border and precarious
>situation made great sufferings for Magyar people. However the situation in
>the areas held by Habsburgs was hardly was any better because when Imre
>Thokoly started his resurrection he applied for Turkish help. I have read
>somewhere that Turkish vizier Kara Mustafa Pasha started his campaign against
>Wien in 1682 on the advice of Imre Thokoly. I don't know if it is true.
>Ferenc Rakoczy also fled to Turkey after his defeat against Habsburgs.
Imre Thokoly had great personal ambitions but little else. His greatest
ambition was to become Prince of the Kingdom of Hungary (note to other posters:
at that time the Hungarian nation was divided into three parts: the western
part, which was controlled by the Habsburgs, the Middle Kingdom, which was
fully occupied by the Turks; and Erdely/Transylvania, which enjoyed special
"pseudo-autonomy" under the Turks). The Turks cleverly exploited his
ambitions, prompting him to lead a joint (with the Turks) attack against
Habsburg held territories in 1682. In a way, the Magyars owe a debt of
gratitude to Thokoly, despite the fact that he aligned with the enemy, as their
fleeting success misled the Turks into thinking that they could take Vienna, a
fatal miscalculation on their part, as the attack on Vienna failed miserably
and united Christian forces in the West, utlimately culminating in 1686 in the
end of 145 years of Turkish occupation.
As for Ferenc Rakoczy, now he was of an entirely different character
altogether. He was a humanist who recognized the right of all men to a decent
life and mobilized the whole of the Hungarian population against Habsburg
domination. He was truly a great man and was dedicated not only to the cause of
his country but to that of the common man. But, alas, he was no match for the
Habsburgs and their allies. He ultimately ended up in exile, first in Paris,
then later in Turkey.
>> What is now the
>> Puszta (Great Plain) in Hungary was, believe it or not, a forested area
prior
>> to Turkish occupation.
>It is doubtful if Puszta was forested territory before Ottoman rule. At least
>there wasn't too much forests. Since Ancient Magyars of prince Arpad who came
>from South Russian stepps and established there were nomads, I don't think
>they would have settled in forested areas.
<rest of above para snipped for brevity>
According to Denis Sinor (whose small but wonderfully concise and well written
book on the History of Hungary has IMHO never been surpassed, although it only
goes up through WWII):
"In previous centuries the great forests of the Hungarian Plain had slowly
given way to ploughland, but enough forest remained to ensure satisfactory
humidity. The arid climate of the plain and its poverty in water followed the
destruction of the trees and is a direct consequence of the the Turkish
occupation, the effects of which were not to be overcome. The once-flourishing
country had become a waste, destroyed, uninhabited.... The famous Hungarian
"puszta" (a word meaning 'bare, deserted, bleak')...is not a work of nature; it
is the work of the Turks." [History of Hungary, Greenwood Press Publ.;
Westport, Conn.; 1959; p.210]
>An interesting fact is that in XV Magyar population of Hungary (in
>pre-Trianon) Hungary is assesed to be 75% Hungarians, and in XVIII in the
>time of emperor Joseph's rule there were only 30% Hungarians.
First of all, there were three major periods of depopulation in Hungary. The
first was the Mongol invasion in the 13th century, which was very short-lived
but resulted in a massacre of the population. The next major depopulation
occurred as a result of the Turkish occupation, partly from deaths incurred in
battle but also partly from the export of Hungarians as slaves. The third
instance of depopulation resulted directly from the Treaty of Trianon
engineered by the West, which stripped Hungary of more than two-thirds of its
land and at least half of its population.
As far as the Magyar element of the Hungarian population is concerned, however,
the Habsburgs had a significant role to play in ensuring and maintaining its
minority status. (Imagine what it must be like to be a minority in one's own
homeland! The Alabanians are getting a taste of the same today in Kosovo.)
Prior to Turkish occupation, Hungary's population was overwhelmingly magyar
(around 80-85%). By the time the country was "liberated" and their Turkish
masters were replaced by Habsburg rulers, they comprised less than half of
Hungary's population. The Habsburgs exploited the population situation to the
hilt, as they achieved much of their success through divide-and-conquer
policies, which consisted of repopulating the decimated areas of Hungary with
allied (to Austria) ethnic groups and pitting one ethnic group against another,
all of which laid the foundation for the creation of major nationality problems
in the region.
> Before the dismemberment of Hungary the percentage of Hungarians was about
60%.
I think it was more like 45%. Ironically, the Hungarian segment of the
population did not regain majority status until the Treaty of Trianon, as many
of the ethnic minorities that formerly lived in Hungary ended up in neighboring
countries. However, the ethnic Hungarians also lost some 3 and 1/2 million of
their own people to neighboring countries, the majority of whom ended up in
Rumania and suffered horrendous atrocities under the Ceausescu regime, thanks
to the Western powers.
> I don't know another country which was so terribly dismembered as Hungary in
1920. In
>fact the so called" civilized Europeans (French, British) showed themselves
>much worse that so called "barbarous" Turks. The fact that the country was
>stripped of 66% percent of her
>tereitory is unprecedented in history.
> Almost all important cities of Hungary all of them with majority Magyar
>population were taken away. The remaining Hungary was in fact Budapest +
countryside,
>with exception of some towns as Debrecen, Miskolc and Gyor. All natural
>ressources of Hungary were taken away. Such are "civilized" Europeans. I
>think that such cruel barbarous behavior toward Magyars was motivated by
>racial hatred towards "Asiatic race". The same cruel behavior wasn't applied
>to Germans after First World War, since they were "fellow Europeans". If we
>remember how Europeans tried to dismember Turkey in 1920 the picture becomes
complete.
And yet the West has the unmitigated gall to complain about nationality
problems in Eastern Europe (after all, it was the West who essentially created
Eastern Europe), problems which were largely of the West's own making when they
took it upon themselves to redefine national borders and deprive vast numbers
of individuals of their homeland and ethnic ties. Moreover the same kinds of
devious processes and nationality problems are continuing today in the Balkan
region, as is witnessed in Western intervention in Bosnia (arms embargoes,
military presence--not all of which is of a protective nature either--and even
more serious the role of the U.S. in aiding and abetting the partitioning of
Bosnia, despite their public assertions to the contrary). As for Kosovo, some
claim that it's another Bosnia in the making, but IMHO it is not ANOTHER
Bosnia; it is an EXTENSION of Bosnia, i.e., the same Western-Serbian tactics
are being employed in Kosovo as were applied in Bosnia and are progressing
along almost identical lines. The major difference, however, is that Kosovo is
a potentially far more dangerous and volatile situation, given its location,
the surrounding countries, and its majority Muslim population, the latter of
which is gaining increasing support from Muslim countries around the world.
Also, in Bosnia, one could present all kinds of arguments along ethnic lines,
given the rich ethnic mix there, whereas in Kosovo, the Serbs who, as we all
know by now, are Christian and comprise only 5% of the population are arguing
that they have the right to rule and oppress the remaining 95% of the
population, which is Albanian and Muslim, an argument which the West thus far
supports by virtue of their refusal to recognize the right of the Kosovars to
claim the same autonomy that other countries under Serbian domination claimed.
I fear that the West is in for a rude awakening if they continue their present
policies in the region.
All this brings to mind Kipling's "East is east and West is west, and never the
twain shall meet..." Perhaps he was right, but let's hope not., for the sake of
us all.
Krisztina
Can Subaykan
> "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the arrival
> of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is awaiting
> the return of his children."
>
> Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May the
> children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
> receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the Hellenes
> tenfold.
Oh, no! We're scared! Please take back the curse.
The "Turkish Dogs" will not be going anywhere, Dimitri,
so don't hold your breath.
>
> Pali me xpovia, pali dika mas 8a eivai
>
Ti? Dev katalabaivw. Milate Agglika?
GS
Please remove this thread form alt.news.macedonia. It was inserted by mistake or
degin in the crosspostings incorrectly. From topic, it appears that it belongs to
the Greek and Turkish netgroups'
Allaha Ismarladik,
Galina
Sostratus
lin...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6ua4e6$lk6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6u9em2$vd6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <6u87hn$kj6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
>> > > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed
to
>> reduce
>> > > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of
>decades.
>
>> Constantinople for the greatest majority of its history has been Hellenic
in
>> nature and culture.
>
>I would rather say it was Roman or Romaic, but not Hellenic. Christian
>inhabitants of Constantinopolis called themselves Romaioi and not Hellenoi.
Hellenic influence soon deprived the Roman culture and language from Roman
(citizens)/Hellenes/Greeks. In the medieval years the only nation which
called themselves Romaioi in the Byzantine period were the Hellenes/Greeks,
that is the inhabitants of the Hellas/Greece and the Hellenes/Greeks/Romaioi
living in Ionia, Eastern Romylia, Eastern Thrace and Pontus/Paflagonia at
that time. All other nations of the empire were distincted, and always
referred by their ethnicity (f.ex. Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Bulgars,
Seltzuks etc.) even if they occupied for a while territories belonging to
Hellas/Greece (f.ex. Ezerites, Mardaites, Meliggs etc.) Thus we may suggest
that the two names had and still have identical meaning. That nation,
Hellenes/Greeks/Romaioi, may be seen today as 'concentrated' in Greece and
Cyprus, after the events which happened during this century.
>> > The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the
holy
>> > masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the
God). For
>> > centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first
according to
>> > the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree
of
>> > God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there
according to
>> > the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings
of God
>> > be upon him).
>> "and later by the decree of God it passed into Ottoman hands" What kind
of
>> statement is that? Are you saying that God gave permission to the turks
to
>> invade, kill, rape and pillage the City and its Hellenic inhabitants?
>You exaggerate about killing, rape and pillage. Of course, it happens in
>every war. Byzatine emperors weren't any better. There was one Byzantine
>basileus who is called "Bolgaroboytza"(killer of Bulgarians).
You forget though that there was also a Bulgarian one who is called
"Greek-slayer" . ("Grekoktonos" - "killer of Greeks"). The whole history of
Byzantium is a struggle for keeping its territories from outside invaders
(Avars, Rus, Bulgars, Setzuks, Patzinaks, Kumans, Serbs etc etc). This
could be enough for having to adopt any aggressive policy. We
(Greeks/Romaioi/Hellenes) were here. It was you (that is any other nation)
who came to our lands and wanted to conquer us. At least we keep the right
to defend ourselves.
<snip some interesting statements for brevity>
>> > By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city
and
>> > converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name
Muhammad:
>> > Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year
1453
>> > will never disappear from Muslim hearts.
>> "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the
arrival
>> of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is
awaiting
>> the return of his children."
>You should be ashamed to used such expression as "turkish dogs".
I suppose by reading the quotes "" that beloved27 took it from a passage as
it was written.
<snip some interesting statements for brevity>
>Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
Sostratus.
Jon Papadimitriou
I have added alt.news.macedonia again after Galina deleted it. This
post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium. It is very
relevant to the history of Macedonia, and therefore, the anm newsgroup
should be included.
Sostratus
Jon Papadimitriou wrote in message
<36090BF9...@geocities.nospam.com>...
>GS wrote:
>
>I have added alt.news.macedonia again after Galina deleted it. This
>post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium. It is very
>relevant to the history of Macedonia, and therefore, the anm newsgroup
>should be included.
And in any case, who's Galina to determine what we must and what we mustn't
post in anm.
Sostratus.
mar...@usa.net
In article <3607B714...@geocities.nospam.com>,
Jon Papadimitriou <evry...@geocities.nospam.com> wrote:
> lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
> > > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to
reduce
> > > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of
decades.
> >
> > What you mean by the City, there is lots of cities in the world.
> >
> > Perhaps you mean Istambul.(hn Poln)
> >
> > In relation with this I would like to list here the names of this glorious
> > city which she had in the cource of history:
> >
> > Byzantion, from VII-VI year before Common Era(CE) Constantinopolis, from IV
> > century CE hn Poln(i poli), in everyday Rum(Romaic, Hellenic)) language
> > Qostantiniyye, as called in Arabic and in official Ottoman documents
Istambul
> > which was presumably derived from Romaic(Hellenic) stnv Poln( pronouced
> > stimboli), meaning in(to) the City)
> >
> > The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the holy
> > masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God).
For Another name for Istanbul is "Islambol (Islam=Submission(to God)
bol=abudant)", which is used in the diary of Evliya Celebi(An old traveller
who lived in 17. century).
> > centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according to
> > the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> > God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according to
> > the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of
God
> > be upon him).
>
> I suppose that "Prophet Isa" is a reference to Jesus. You say "peace be upon
> him". But for "Mohammed", you say "peace and blessings of God be upon him".
> Why is there this differentiation in the Muslim faith?? Further, you say
that
> it was by decree of God to pass into Ottoman hands. Isn't that taking
history a
> little too naively??
>
Today's Moslems mainly commit this error, but we are teached by God, that not
to distinguish between messengers. Following are the verses that Moslems
contradict:
"The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord,
and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His
scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of
His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey.* Forgive us, our
Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."Quran[2:285]
"Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what
was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs;
and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from
their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we
are submitters."Quran[2:136]
"Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what
was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs,
and in what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their
Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are
submitters."Quran[3:84]
"Why should GOD guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after
witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs* have
been given to them? GOD does not guide the wicked."Quran[3:86]
These have incurred condemnation by GOD, and the angels, and all the
people.[3:87]
Eternally they abide therein; the retribution is never commuted for
them, nor will they be reprieved.[3:88]
Exempted are those who repent thereafter, and reform. GOD is Forgiver,
Most Merciful.[3:89]
"Those who disbelieve in GOD and His messengers, and seek to make
distinction among GOD and His messengers, and say, "We believe in some
and reject some," and wish to follow a path in between;
these are the real disbelievers. We have prepared for the disbelievers
a shameful retribution.
As for those who believe in GOD and His messengers, and make no
distinction among them, He will grant them their recompense. GOD is
Forgiver, Most Merciful."[4:150-152]
> >
> > Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic: such
> > obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine
Wisdom
> > and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound
his
> > glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
> >
On the contrary, without God support no one can achieve victory.
> > By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
> > converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name
Muhammad:
> > Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year 1453
> > will never disappear from Muslim hearts. On the remnants of decayed
Byzantine
> > civilization Ottomans have raised a new one which was maybe the most
perfect
> > implementation of the Divine Law, after Asr-i Saadet(the Age of
Happiness)in
> > Medinah during Prophet's(Peace and blessings of God be upon him) times.
>
> You seem to know a lot about the Islamic faith. I would like to ask you a
> simple question. It is forbidden for non-Muslims to enter the city of Mecca
> (Makkah). Is there something in the Koran or some other Islamic religious
book
> that forbids this, or is it just a man made law in Saudi Arabia. I have
heard
> that one of Mohammed's best friends was Christian and he lived in Mecca, so
it
> seems that the prohibition is contrary to Mohammed's teachings.
>
Today's Islamic Faith is nothing to do with the one that God teaches us in the
Quran. Best one is to verify your knowledge from Quran.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for
yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them."Quran[17:36]
Peace,
Mahmut
> Jon Papadimitriou
>
> >
> > Abdurrahman L.Kondratas
GS
OpaTennant wrote a well reasoned post:
No, it is a maxim of Ghenghiz Khanto make of what people perceived as civilization
a steppe, to fit the needs of his civilization. The rest was imitation.
It is different than Bosnia. In Bosnia, to state one obvious fact, everyone spoke
a similar and comprehensible (to one another) language. In Kosovo, one has to rely
on translations. Or the minority language, the subtleties of which may not be
totally comprehensible.
> The major difference, however, is that Kosovo is
> a potentially far more dangerous and volatile situation, given its location,
> the surrounding countries, and its majority Muslim population, the latter of
> which is gaining increasing support from Muslim countries around the world.
That is not yet shown.
> Also, in Bosnia, one could present all kinds of arguments along ethnic lines,
> given the rich ethnic mix there, whereas in Kosovo, the Serbs who, as we all
> know by now, are Christian and comprise only 5% of the population are arguing
> that they have the right to rule and oppress the remaining 95% of the
> population, which is Albanian and Muslim,
a significant Roman Catholic minority (Albanian) resides in Kosovo.
> an argument which the West thus far
> supports by virtue of their refusal to recognize the right of the Kosovars to
> claim the same autonomy that other countries under Serbian domination claimed.
Right. And that refusal of recognition has weakened the perception of Rugova's
ability to lead Kosova/o, despite massive evidence to the contrary, by all the
parties expecting that individual to work miracles under the most imaginable of
trying circumstances.
> I fear that the West is in for a rude awakening if they continue their present
> policies in the region.
Everybody is awake. They are just looking the other way.
>
>
> All this brings to mind Kipling's "East is east and West is west, and never the
> twain shall meet..." Perhaps he was right, but let's hope not., for the sake of
> us all.
Not relevant in this area. Except for the God's dread judgement seat part.
>
>
> Krisztina
Can Subaykan
> GS wrote:
> >
> > Dear Abdurahman Kondaris, > > Please remove this thread form
> > alt.news.macedonia. It was inserted by mistake or > degin in the
> > crosspostings incorrectly. From topic, it appears that it belongs to
> > the Greek and Turkish netgroups' > > Allaha Ismarladik, > > Galina
>
> I have added alt.news.macedonia again after Galina deleted it. This
> post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium. It is very
> relevant to the history of Macedonia, and therefore, the anm newsgroup
> should be included.
The insistance of people (like Agamemnon for example) to assert that
"Macedonia is Greek, so I can write Greek folk songs in the Macedonians'
newsgroup" and the consequent retaliations.... it looks like it's about
to spill over to SCT..
By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
Sostratus
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jon Papadimitriou wrote:
>
>The insistance of people (like Agamemnon for example) to assert that
>"Macedonia is Greek, so I can write Greek folk songs in the Macedonians'
>newsgroup" and the consequent retaliations.... it looks like it's about
>to spill over to SCT..
Do you really think that we should validate this thread as a folk song ? Or
you actually want to 'spill it over' sct by mentioning any a priori
similarity ?
>By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
>Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
>
Sostratus.
Can Subaykan
>
> Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
> >On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jon Papadimitriou wrote:
> >
> <snip>
>
> >The insistance of people (like Agamemnon for example) to assert that
> >"Macedonia is Greek, so I can write Greek folk songs in the Macedonians'
> >newsgroup" and the consequent retaliations.... it looks like it's about
> >to spill over to SCT..
>
> Do you really think that we should validate this thread as a folk song ? Or
> you actually want to 'spill it over' sct by mentioning any a priori
> similarity ?
What does the name of Istanbul have to do with Macedonia? The Greeks
squabbling with Macedonians, and whether ANM is a "Greek" newsgroup is not
of immediate concern to SCT. It only shows that because the newsgroup has
the word "macedonia" in it, some of you are restless to invade it with
folk songs and other Greek things. Then they do the same to your
newsgroup.
No I don't want it to spill over to SCT.
OpaTennant
Many thanks, Sostratus, for your well-tempered reply. Both your reply and that
of Mr. Arnakis confirmed what I had already suspected, namely that, despite all
the name-calling and shouting that goes on this group, there are a lot of civil
and fair-minded people out there with wothwhile things to say and who are
willing to engage in genuine dialogue. That is why I have remained in this NG,
even though it was not my original intention to do so. It's been quite a
learning experience and, for the most part, a very pleasurable one as well.
Now for my somewhat abbreviated reply to the comments in your posting:
Sostratus wrote in message
<6u82ji$lvm$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>
>Krisztina wrote
>>>Naif statement. Both religions forbid mixed intermarriage.
>>
>>Not true, Sostratus. Muslims are permitted to marry "people of the book",
which
>>includes both Jews and Christians.
>
>
>You should know Krisztina that there's no valid marriage for Christians and
>Jews if both persons do not belong to the same religion. Thus Krisztina the
>muslim one has to convert his religion to Christianism or Jewish
accordingly....
>>>Koran forbids the muslims from changing their religion to Christianism,
having as a punishment the death.
>>From where did you get this piece of information? To the best of my
knowledge,
>>it is neither in Koran, Haddith nor Sunna. It sounds like a Turkish thing to
>>me. However, when it comes to intolerance, I know of no Christian sect more
>>intolerant of conversion than the Coptic Church.
>
><very interesting info on Egypt copts by Krisztina snipped for brevity>
For responses to the preceding paragraphs, please see my lengthy reply to
Abduhrahman's (linask's) posting.
>Although the answer has been given by Mr.Arnakis, Krisztina, I would like to
>add a small quote: Every christian Krisztina knows well how free may feel to
>select and how easy is to follow another religion in a Christian country.
Provided it's a Christian or otherwise "socially accepted" one, right? >;-)
Tell that to a Cathlolic living in Belfast, and that's not even another
religion, although we all know what THAT whole situation is about and it's not
about religion, as once again in history, religious affiliation merely serves
as a rallying point for mobilization against one's enemy.
>On the other hand 'giaurs' were never accepted as equal citizens in f.ex.
>Ottoman empire, Krisztina. 'Giaur' means unfaithful, Krisztina, in Turkish.
"Unfaithful" in what sense, Sostratus: heretic or infidel? There's a huge
difference between the two, especially with respect to the way they are
treated.
>
>>>Thus, you've got your answer. Only Christians turned to be muslims.
>
>>Now, that may well be the case, but probably not for the reason(s) you think
(G).
>
>
>Yes, you must be right, Krisztina.
>
>Regards, Krisztina.
>
>Sostratus.
Likewise, Sostratus.
Krisztina
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
Can Subaykan
> Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> > By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
> > Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
>
>
> In other words a traitor to his people, homeland, tradition. He must
> have an inferiority complex or something. How pathetic can one be so
> as to convert to another religion?
Religion is something that is a choice, not like skin color. If he chose
to accept the religion of Islam over the default that was offered to him
by his surroundings, that shows he had the courage to question certain
things and come to a conclusion on his own. Even considering such a thing
shows willingness to accept something other than what is immediately
available. Everyone's faith is his own business, and it certainly is not
"pathetic" to accept the teachings of a religion other than your family
and neighbors.
What is pathetic is the kind of blind hatred you continue to exhibit.
belo...@my-dejanews.com
<Pine.A41.4.02.980923...@dante09.u.washington.edu>, Can
Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Jon Papadimitriou wrote:
>
> > GS wrote:
> > >
>
> > > Dear Abdurahman Kondaris, > > Please remove this thread form
> > > alt.news.macedonia. It was inserted by mistake or > degin in the
> > > crosspostings incorrectly. From topic, it appears that it belongs to
> > > the Greek and Turkish netgroups' > > Allaha Ismarladik, > > Galina
> >
> > I have added alt.news.macedonia again after Galina deleted it. This
> > post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium. It is very
> > relevant to the history of Macedonia, and therefore, the anm newsgroup
> > should be included.
>
> The insistance of people (like Agamemnon for example) to assert that
> "Macedonia is Greek, so I can write Greek folk songs in the Macedonians'
> newsgroup" and the consequent retaliations.... it looks like it's about
> to spill over to SCT..
>
> By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
> Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
In other words a traitor to his people, homeland, tradition. He must have an
inferiority complex or something. How pathetic can one be so as to convert to
another religion?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
belo...@my-dejanews.com
<Pine.A41.4.02.980923...@dante33.u.washington.edu>, The
turkish dog Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> barked:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the
arrival
> > of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is awaiting
> > the return of his children."
> >
> > Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May the
> > children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
> > receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the Hellenes
> > tenfold.
>
> Oh, no! We're scared! Please take back the curse.
First of all dog, if me and your little mongol bastard midget ass were to
fight one on one I could probably have no problem breaking you little neck,
but being the gypsies turks really are you multiply like there is no
tommorow. A gypsy family always has more than 4 kids, because they need them
to run around and beg for money. By the way, how's the inflation back home,
has it gone under 90%? If you think we are scared of you, wake up...! If you
think you are going to have an easy time if a conflict breaks out because of
Cyprus, wake up...! Even though you have 6 times more population you only
have twice as many weapons than us, we are very heavily armed for only 10
million. Second, do you really think 20 million Kurds will fight for you
after all you have done to them?
> The "Turkish Dogs" will not be going anywhere, Dimitri,
> so don't hold your breath.
Hey Can does it really bother you to know that you are really a bastard
because you are not really turkish but, rather a mixture of Ottomans, Jews,
Kurds, Albanians, Slavs, Greeks and Armenians? I mean, really how many blond
haired Ottomans were there in Mohammed II's time? But look at you know,
black hair, blond hair, brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes. I assume ottomans
felt very inferior genetically and were very willing to have bastard children
with people from other ethnicities. Right Can?
> Ti? Dev katalabaivw. Milate Agglika?
To xepo pe mouvopavo, poutavas fapa oti dev milas ellnvika....
belo...@my-dejanews.com
lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <6u9em2$vd6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <6u87hn$kj6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > > A people who in 1955 carried out state sponsored pogrom against the
> > > > City's Hellenic population and through threats and violence managed to
> > reduce
> > > > the City's Hellenic population from 400,000 to 2,000 in the span of
> decades.
>
> > nature and culture.
>
> I would rather say it was Roman or Romaic, but not Hellenic. Christian
> inhabitants of Constantinopolis called themselves Romaioi and not Hellenoi.
> > > The symbol of Istambul-Byzantion-Qostantiniyye-Constantinopolis is the
holy
> > > masjid of Aya Sofya(Hagia Sophia). Which means Holy Wisdom (of the God).
For
> > > centuries the name of God was invoked in this temple: at first according
to
> > > the Law of Prophet Isa(peace be upon him), and later when by the decree of
> > > God it passed into Ottoman hands, the God was worshipped there according
to
> > > the Law of the Seal of Prophets Hazret-i Muhammad(Peace and blessings of
God
> > > be upon him).
> >
> > "and later by the decree of God it passed into Ottoman hands" What kind of
> > statement is that? Are you saying that God gave permission to the turks to
> > invade, kill, rape and pillage the City and its Hellenic inhabitants?
>
> You exaggerate about killing, rape and pillage.
You think I exaggerate...!
Ok, here is a direct quote
"The city of Constantinople had been put to the sack by the Ottoman army.
According to an observer from Venice, blood flowed through the streets like
rainwater after a sudden storm; corpses floated out to sea like melons in a
canal."
Of course, it happens in
> every war. Byzatine emperors weren't any better. There was one Byzantine
> basileus who is called "Bolgaroboytza"(killer of Bulgarians).
It is no crime to defend your homeland from invaders. Bulgarians, Slavs,
Turks all were invaders.
> Because
> > if you say, yes, than it is also by Gods decree that Arabs be the slaves of
> > the Israelis and must therefore accept the current situation, which is a
very
> > bad one, they are in.
>
> You are perfectly true. It is God's decree. Everything happens by God's
> decree. However it doesn't mean that Arabs must accept the current situation.
> But they will reconquer Palestine only if God allows them to do this. If you
> Hellenes try to reconquer the City you will not be successful until God
> allows it to you. Read more about God's action in history in the book of OT,
> especially prophetic books.
All this is bs. Man and only man is responsible for his actions not God.
> > > Ataturkist regime has closed this exalted temple. It is very symbolic:
such
> > > obscurantist regime as Ataturkist doesn't need the assistance of Divine
> Wisdom
> > > and Divine Light. But the God which is the most Merciful will make resound
> his
> > > glorious name again in Aya Sofya.
> >
> > The church of Agia Sophia was built as a church in the name of Jesus Christ
>
> It was build in the name of God and not in the name of a prophet. When
> Justinianus has built it the Law of Prophet Jesus(as) was still valid at that
> time. It was before God sent Muhammad(pbuh).
>
> > and not Allah.It would be a damnation upon those people who would
> attempt
> > to make it into a mosque again. The turks have no need for another mosque.
> > The mosques of Sultanahmed and Suleyimaniye are enough and big enough in
> > order to accomodate any religious services in the City.
>
> You have no right to tell turks what they have right and what they not in
> their own land. Istanbul is MUSLIM and TURKISH and I pray God Allmighty that
> it would remain so until the day of Qiyamah.
>
> > > By the way, the ruler which inspired new life into this ancient city and
> > > converted it to the center of Islamic Khalifate also had the name
Muhammad:
> > > Muhammad al-Fatih(the conqueror). The remembrance of the glorious year
1453
> > > will never disappear from Muslim hearts.
> >
> > "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the
arrival
> > of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is awaiting
> > the return of his children."
>
> You should be ashamed to used such expression as "turkish dogs".
First of all, this is a quote. Second name one thing, invention, or
accomplishment the turks have offered to the world? Besides the obvious
systematic extermination of peoples.
> > Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May the
> > children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
> > receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the Hellenes
> > tenfold.
>
> May the rulers of the house of Osman get high ranks in the Paradise for the
> services they made for Islamic Faith.
>
> Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
>
I pitty you because you betrayed your country and denied your religion,
family, tradition, and beliefs.
OpaTennant
beloved27 wrote in message
> <6uccla$up5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>>Can Subaykan wrote
>>>Jon Papadimitriou wrote:
>> > I have added alt.news.macedonia again after Galina deleted it. This
>> > post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium. It is very
>> > relevant to the history of Macedonia, and therefore, the anm newsgroup.
>> > should be included.
>> By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
>> Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
>
>
>In other words a traitor to his people, homeland, tradition. He must have an
>inferiority complex or something. How pathetic can one be so as to convert to
>another religion?
Just who do you think you are?! Galina, perhaps? What gives you the right to
judge the motives of someone you don't know the first thing about? As for
conversion, aren't you being a little hypocritical, as I am sure that had he
been a Muslim who had converted to Christianity, you would have been commending
him. Christianity thrives on proselytizing people, i.e., turning them into
"traitors". People "convert" (if such a thing is truly possible in the case of
religious experience) for different reasons, the major one being that they were
raised in a faith which they themselves were never really able to fully accept,
although in that case, we can not truly speak of conversion, can we. Again, the
bottom line is that we believe what we believe on the basis of whatever
personal religious experience we've had and if that happens to accord with what
we've been taught or with what we discover about some other religion, then I
guess that enables us to slap a label on what we believe.
If anyone is pathetic, it is the individual who does not show respect for
other's beliefs nor seriously examines his own.
Now why don't you run along and find Galina and the two of you can have a
wonderful time reinforcing each other's beliefs.
Krisztina
lin...@hotmail.com
Jon Papadimitriou <evry...@geocities.nospam.com> wrote:
> GS wrote:
> >
> > Dear Abdurahman Kondaris,
> >
> > Please remove this thread form alt.news.macedonia. It was inserted by
mistake or
> > degin in the crosspostings incorrectly. From topic, it appears that it
belongs to
> > the Greek and Turkish netgroups'
> >
> > Allaha Ismarladik,
> >
> > Galina
>
> post has a lot of viewpoints of a Turk Muslim on Byzantium.
I am not Turkish Muslim, but Muslim anyway, and my view on Ottoman/Byzantine
history coincide to a great deal with that of Turks.
Abdurrhman L. Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
At first I am not Kondaris, but Kondratas.
I had no intent to bring this to alt.news.macedonia I simply entered the
discussion which was already in course and gave new name to a subthread. I
don't know how to delete and I am not going to find it out I have no time for
it.
Secondly, I think that since Macedonia was ruled from Constantinople/Istambul
for centuries, it is simply wrong to assert that the historical past of this
city has nothing to do with Macedonia.
Macedonia is a young nation which has only a history of 8 years. If we add
the year of her existence as a province of old Yugoslavia it makes about 50
years. However, during Ottoman times from XIV to 1912 Macedonia was part of a
region called Rumeli and was ruled from Istanbul. Selanik and Uskup are known
as important centers of Ottoman empire. It seems that Kemal Ataturk learned
in military school in Manastir/Bitol(or he has served there).He was born in
Selanik also in Macedonia. Also the revolution of Young Turks which had deep
impact on Turkish history started in Macedonia. Therefore it is impossible to
claim that Turkish history is disconnected from Macedonian one. Simly to say
for more than 500 years Macedonian history was a subset of Turkish history.
Gule, gule Galina Hanim
In article <3608FC6E...@erols.com>,
GS <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
> Dear Abdurahman Kondaris,
>
> Please remove this thread form alt.news.macedonia. It was inserted by mistake
or
> degin in the crosspostings incorrectly. From topic, it appears that it
belongs to
> the Greek and Turkish netgroups'
>
> Allaha Ismarladik,
>
> Galina
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
lin...@hotmail.com
opate...@aol.com (OpaTennant) wrote:
> Imre Thokoly had great personal ambitions but little else. His greatest
> ambition was to become Prince of the Kingdom of Hungary (note to other
posters:
> at that time the Hungarian nation was divided into three parts: the western
> part, which was controlled by the Habsburgs, the Middle Kingdom, which was
> fully occupied by the Turks; and Erdely/Transylvania, which enjoyed special
> "pseudo-autonomy" under the Turks). The Turks cleverly exploited his
> ambitions, prompting him to lead a joint (with the Turks) attack against
> Habsburg held territories in 1682. In a way, the Magyars owe a debt of
> gratitude to Thokoly, despite the fact that he aligned with the enemy, as
their
> fleeting success misled the Turks into thinking that they could take Vienna, a
> fatal miscalculation on their part, as the attack on Vienna failed miserably
> and united Christian forces in the West, utlimately culminating in 1686 in the
> end of 145 years of Turkish occupation.
One occupation was merely exchanged with another one, yet Hungary's situation
improved considerably. It was now in one master possession, wars have
terminated and although Hapsburgs were unfavorable to Magyars, nevertheless
their policy brought certain economic success. By the conditions of Szatmar
capitulation in 1711 Hungary nevertheless preserved certain authonomy.
> >> What is now the
> >> Puszta (Great Plain) in Hungary was, believe it or not, a forested area
> prior
> >> to Turkish occupation.
>
> >It is doubtful if Puszta was forested territory before Ottoman rule. At least
> >there wasn't too much forests. Since Ancient Magyars of prince Arpad who came
> >from South Russian stepps and established there were nomads, I don't think
> >they would have settled in forested areas.
>
> <rest of above para snipped for brevity>
>
> According to Denis Sinor (whose small but wonderfully concise and well written
> book on the History of Hungary has IMHO never been surpassed, although it only
> goes up through WWII):
>
> "In previous centuries the great forests of the Hungarian Plain had slowly
> given way to ploughland, but enough forest remained to ensure satisfactory
> humidity. The arid climate of the plain and its poverty in water followed the
> destruction of the trees and is a direct consequence of the the Turkish
> occupation, the effects of which were not to be overcome. The once-flourishing
> country had become a waste, destroyed, uninhabited.... The famous Hungarian
> "puszta" (a word meaning 'bare, deserted, bleak')...is not a work of nature;
it
> is the work of the Turks." [History of Hungary, Greenwood Press Publ.;
> Westport, Conn.; 1959; p.210]
Really very interesting information. But here is some bias against Turks. See
below.
> >An interesting fact is that in XV Magyar population of Hungary (in
> >pre-Trianon) Hungary is assesed to be 75% Hungarians, and in XVIII in the
> >time of emperor Joseph's rule there were only 30% Hungarians.
>
> First of all, there were three major periods of depopulation in Hungary. The
> first was the Mongol invasion in the 13th century, which was very short-lived
> but resulted in a massacre of the population.
Yes, it is was very harsh invasion. I presume Hungary was almost completely
destroyed at that time. If I am true, Kumans(Kun) were settled in Hungary at
that time(after Mongol invasion).
The next major depopulation
> occurred as a result of the Turkish occupation, partly from deaths incurred in
> battle but also partly from the export of Hungarians as slaves.
The greatest tragedy of Hungary was that it was divided in two(or rather in
three parts) and the frontier between Ottomans and Hapsburg was in fact front
line which was shifting all the time. Small incursions happened all the time
from both sides. Both Hapsburgs and Ottomans pillaged, ravaged and abducted
Magyar population as slaves in respective enemy's zone. Since the Great
plain was in Turkish zone for the most of time , there is no doubt that
destruction and abduction into slavery there was made chiefly by Hapsburg
troups(It is irreasonable to suppose that Ottomans destroyed their own
territory). Although it is quite probably that Ottomans organized wood
cutting there. In general, due to continuing war Ottomans had no interest in
developing this territory and were interested in maximal, unsustainable
exploitatation of its material ressources.
A similar situation of continuos war with instable border existed between
Lithuania and Teutonic order(East Prussia) for about 150 years in XIII-XIV
centuries. Entire territories were completely ravaged, in both Lithuania and
East Prussia and had later to be repopulated.
> The third
> instance of depopulation resulted directly from the Treaty of Trianon
> engineered by the West, which stripped Hungary of more than two-thirds of its
> land and at least half of its population.
>
> As far as the Magyar element of the Hungarian population is concerned,
however,
> the Habsburgs had a significant role to play in ensuring and maintaining its
> minority status. (Imagine what it must be like to be a minority in one's own
> homeland! The Alabanians are getting a taste of the same today in Kosovo.)
> Prior to Turkish occupation, Hungary's population was overwhelmingly magyar
> (around 80-85%). By the time the country was "liberated" and their Turkish
> masters were replaced by Habsburg rulers, they comprised less than half of
> Hungary's population.
And after Hapsburg sponsored German, Rumanian and Serbian immigration
Hungarian made perhaps 30%-35% only
> > Before the dismemberment of Hungary the percentage of Hungarians was about
> 60%.
>
> I think it was more like 45%. Ironically, the Hungarian segment of the
> population did not regain majority status until the Treaty of Trianon, as
many
> of the ethnic minorities that formerly lived in Hungary ended up in
neighboring
> countries.
No, in the beginning of XX, Magyar population was 12-13 millions while entire
population was 19 millions. 12 divided by 19 gives about 60%.
In posttrianon Hungary there were 8.5-9 millions Hungarians which were about
a half of pre_Trianon Hungary's population. If you add 3.5 millions you will
have 12-12.5 millions. And entire population of post-Trianon Hungary was
about 9-10 nillions so by multiplying by two(since it was roughly a half of
former popluation) you get 18-20 millions.
I have seen somewhere results of population census in Hungary in the beginning
of XX and they were more or less like outlined here.
> However, the ethnic Hungarians also lost some 3 and 1/2 million of
> their own people to neighboring countries, the majority of whom ended up in
> Rumania and suffered horrendous atrocities under the Ceausescu regime, thanks
> to the Western powers.
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
lin...@hotmail.com
> > By the way, for the sake of accuracy, Abdurrahman Kondratas is a
> > Lithuanian Muslim, he isn't Turkish.
>
> In other words a traitor to his people, homeland, tradition. He must have an
> inferiority complex or something. How pathetic can one be so as to convert to
> another religion?
First of all news forum is not a place to call names, but rather to discuss
ideas.
Secondly, do you know Mr. Beloved in what conditions I have born? During
Soviet occupation. I was taught Soviet traditions in school. After Soviet
Union disapperared, had I to continue Soviet traditions?
I converted to Islam from Marxistic atheism. I searched many religions:
Catholicism which is majoritary in Lithuania, Protestantism, Judaism and
finally I chose Islam.
As for Lithuanian traditions I had no occasion to assimilate them in my young
days, since the system of education was completely sovietized.
However, the most important thing that a man must follow the TRUTH, and not
what he has received from his ancestors. You follow blindly what you received
from your ancestors, you follow their Orthodox Christianity and your unable
to see that the TRUTH is in ISLAM.
lin...@hotmail.com
belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > You exaggerate about killing, rape and pillage.
>
> You think I exaggerate...!
> Ok, here is a direct quote
> "The city of Constantinople had been put to the sack by the Ottoman army.
> According to an observer from Venice, blood flowed through the streets like
> rainwater after a sudden storm; corpses floated out to sea like melons in a
> canal."
Oh, I see that is very picturesque description :-)
> Of course, it happens in
> > every war. Byzatine emperors weren't any better. There was one Byzantine
> > basileus who is called "Bolgaroboytza"(killer of Bulgarians).
>
> It is no crime to defend your homeland from invaders. Bulgarians, Slavs,
> Turks all were invaders.
This Bolgaroboytza has invaded Bulgaria, occupied it and made it province of
Byzantine empire. You call it "defending homeland". Invasion to Anatolia was
also I presume "defending homeland"?
> > Because
> > > if you say, yes, than it is also by Gods decree that Arabs be the slaves
of
> > > the Israelis and must therefore accept the current situation, which is a
> very
> > > bad one, they are in.
> >
> > You are perfectly true. It is God's decree. Everything happens by God's
> > decree. However it doesn't mean that Arabs must accept the current
situation.
> > But they will reconquer Palestine only if God allows them to do this. If you
> > Hellenes try to reconquer the City you will not be successful until God
> > allows it to you. Read more about God's action in history in the book of OT,
> > especially prophetic books.
>
> All this is bs. Man and only man is responsible for his actions not God.
You are mistaken. Both are true: man is responsible of his actions and nobody
happens without God's will.
> > You should be ashamed to used such expression as "turkish dogs".
>
> First of all, this is a quote. Second name one thing, invention, or
> accomplishment the turks have offered to the world? Besides the obvious
> systematic extermination of peoples.
>
You tell nonsense "about systematic exterminations".
And what positive was given to the world by Byzantines and Modern Greeks?
I don't speak about Old Greeks; They were great; the science of Aristo and
Iflatun was appreciated by many Islamic scholars.
Byzantine Empire had stagnant culture and hasn't created nothing outstanding,
Romaioi were only aping Ancient Greek culture.
As for modern Greeks their exploits are:
1) cruel massaacre against Muslim population in Tripolitsa(in Morea/Mora
peninsula) in 1821.
2) Barbarous invasion into Anatolia/Anadolu in 1920-1922. But Kemal taught
you a good lesson!!!
3) Attempt to perform genocide of Turkish cypriots in 1963(and many were
killed or are missing since).
4) Putsch by fascist General Samson in Cyprus in 1974. During 1 week he
slaughtered 5000 people(4000 Greeks and 1000 Turks). Turkey rescued their
compatriots from the threat of genocide(by the way Greek leftists were rescued
by Turks as well).
All the times in XIX-XX centuries Turk-Greek hostilities were opened by
Greeks: in 1821, in 1882, in 1912, in 1919, in 1963, and in 1974.
5) Absurd and ridiculous campaign againt the Republic of Macedonia(all world
is laughing).
You are afraid that Macedonians will retake Selanik? But you also want to
retake Istanbul and Izmir, aren't you?
After all in VII-X centuries the surroundings of Selanik(Solun) were mostly
Slavic...
6) Continous and obsessive hate propaganda against Turkey
7) Irresponsible desire to establish 12 mile Greek zone in Egean, which would
bar Turkey's access into Egean and will mahe ship travel from Istanbul to
Izmir impossible.
8) claims to Kardak island which is several kilometers from Turkish coast.
9) support to PKK bandits.
After all Greeks should be thankful to Turks, since without Turks they would
have no cuisine. Ntolmadhes, mousakkas... :-)
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
Can Subaykan
> turkish dog Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> barked:
>
you're so brilliant and creative.
> >
> > Oh, no! We're scared! Please take back the curse.
>
> First of all dog, if me and your little mongol bastard midget ass were to
> fight one on one I could probably have no problem breaking you little neck,
You are very threatening with your schoolyard bully words!
I suppose you have some idea in your mind about what you think you would
do. It sounds like you just watched a tough guy movie, why don't you calm
down, keyboard tough guy.
> but being the gypsies turks really are you multiply like there is no
> tommorow. A gypsy family always has more than 4 kids, because they need them
> to run around and beg for money. By the way, how's the inflation back home,
> has it gone under 90%? If you think we are scared of you, wake up...! If you
> think you are going to have an easy time if a conflict breaks out because of
> Cyprus, wake up...! Even though you have 6 times more population you only
> have twice as many weapons than us, we are very heavily armed for only 10
> million. Second, do you really think 20 million Kurds will fight for you
> after all you have done to them?
First of all, I don't 20 million Kurds are all in support of the PKK,
which kills Kurds and Turks indiscriminantly. Secondly, I don't live in
dreamland, so I do not believe any war would be a pleasant breeze. I
advise you to consider the realities of war as well. I suggest you come
to reality about thoughts that Greece could destroy Turkey. It will not
happen, live with it.
> > The "Turkish Dogs" will not be going anywhere, Dimitri,
> > so don't hold your breath.
>
> Hey Can does it really bother you to know that you are really a
> bastard because you are not really turkish but, rather a mixture of
> Ottomans, Jews, Kurds, Albanians, Slavs, Greeks and Armenians? I mean,
No actually, it does not bother me. Because I am not obsessed with
genetic white purity as some of your fellow Greeks I have read on the
newsgroups. I am not concerned with the percentage of pure Turk genes
that are in me. Pride in heritage is one thing, but chromosomes are not
as important as character; and we see yours here as you write. By the
way, how are you so certain that you don't have any of these other
ethnicities somewhere up on your lineage?? You must be one of those who
preserved their 100% Greek blood purity :) One sure way to do that is
generations of inbreeding, ofcourse. A drop of Turk blood makes you a
Turk, according to some of your pals. So I hope you don't lose any sleep
wondering if great grandma Vasilissa had a love affair with a thick
mustached Turkish guy named Saffet.
> really how many blond haired Ottomans were there in Mohammed II's
> time? But look at you know, black hair, blond hair, brown eyes, green
> eyes, blue eyes. I assume ottomans felt very inferior genetically and
> were very willing to have bastard children with people from other
> ethnicities. Right Can?
If you say so, pureblood :) Variety is the spice of life. You also have
all types of different appearances among Greeks, isn't that true? Not all
of them are hairy and dark with inch-thick eyebrows. What is your point?
Are there no blond/brunette/redhair Greeks with green/blue/brown/hazel
eyes? They must be genetically superior to the Turks with the same
features. :)
>
>
> > Ti? Dev katalabaivw. Milate Agglika?
>
> To xepo pe mouvopavo, poutavas fapa oti dev milas ellnvika....
>
Ne diyon lan essoluesek? Agzina sictigimin pici.
Can Subaykan
> First of all, this is a quote. Second name one thing, invention, or
> accomplishment the turks have offered to the world? Besides the obvious
> systematic extermination of peoples.
Just one? Yogurt.
Sostratus
OpaTennant wrote in message <19980923174131...@ng98.aol.com>...
<snipped>
>>Although the answer has been given by Mr.Arnakis, Krisztina, I would like
to
>>add a small quote: Every christian Krisztina knows well how free may feel
to
>>select and how easy is to follow another religion in a Christian country.
>Provided it's a Christian or otherwise "socially accepted" one, right?
>;-)
I 'm afraid I disagree.
>Tell that to a Cathlolic living in Belfast, and that's not even another
>religion, although we all know what THAT whole situation is about and it's
not
>about religion, as once again in history, religious affiliation merely
serves
>as a rallying point for mobilization against one's enemy.
But here we're talking on politics Krisztina. Religion in N.Ireland is used
as a way to promote various political and state subjects. It is not the
first time it happens throughout world and history. People over there could
simply live in piece keeping their dogmas, like in W.Thrace for example
where people from even different religions live. From the moment N.Ireland
became a dispute as a territory between IRA and G.Britain, religion was the
first thing which used into these people's consiousnesses. That's not our
point here. As far as there are people to follow tribunes, there will be
situations like these. Thus I consider the specific example as unsuccesful.
>>On the other hand 'giaurs' were never accepted as equal citizens in f.ex.
>>Ottoman empire, Krisztina. 'Giaur' means unfaithful, Krisztina, in
Turkish.
>
>"Unfaithful" in what sense, Sostratus: heretic or infidel? There's a huge
>difference between the two, especially with respect to the way they are
>treated.
Infidel Krisztina. The 'Faith' for Muslims is the Islam. The 'unfaithful'
people, the 'giaurs' were the people which did not follow the Islam. Islam
came after Christianism, so it couldn't consider Christianism as a
denomination.
<snip>
>Krisztina
Sostratus.
Sostratus
Sostratus wrote in message <6ud1b3$hss$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
<snip>
Correction to avoid any possible misunderstanding.
>Infidel Krisztina.
Infidel, Krisztina. Or :
"Infidel", Krisztina.
>The 'Faith' for Muslims is the Islam. The 'unfaithful'
>people, the 'giaurs' were the people which did not follow the Islam. Islam
>came after Christianism, so it couldn't consider Christianism as a
>denomination.
>
><snip>
>>Krisztina
Thanks in advance for your understanting. No intention to harm anyone.
Sostratus.
Sostratus
Islam. He was a soviet citizen and as he claims he was an atheist. Many
people kept their orthodox faith hidden under the soviet rule although being
considered 'atheists', and this was shown clearly in the days after the
reformation. But this guy considers himself as not being an Orthodox
believer even before this, so he selected Islam, when faced the religion
subject, for his own reasons. The problem should be targeted *before* that
is the Marxist atheistic period Abdurrahman suggested.
Sostratus.
Sostratus
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>
<snip>
>> Do you really think that we should validate this thread as a folk song ?
Or
>> you actually want to 'spill it over' sct by mentioning any a priori
>> similarity ?
>
>
>What does the name of Istanbul have to do with Macedonia? The Greeks
>squabbling with Macedonians, and whether ANM is a "Greek" newsgroup is not
>of immediate concern to SCT. It only shows that because the newsgroup has
>the word "macedonia" in it, some of you are restless to invade it with
>folk songs and other Greek things. Then they do the same to your
>newsgroup.
Do you want me to tell you what has to do with sct ? I'll tell you what has
to do. As long as you're referring to the nation of FYROM as "Macedonians"
it will always has something to do. You are quite experienced in these NGs
to know very well the netiquette label used for the people of FYROM. That
is, Macedonians do not exist as a separate nation but they are Greeks living
in Macedonia which is one and only and is Northern Greece. And, PLEASE don't
bring me CIA statistics on nations etc etc. I'm full of it.
>No I don't want it to spill over to SCT.
So, try to follow the scg terms instead.
Sostratus.
Dimitris
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> However, the most important thing that a man must follow the TRUTH, and not
> what he has received from his ancestors. You follow blindly what you received
> from your ancestors, you follow their Orthodox Christianity and your unable
> to see that the TRUTH is in ISLAM.
>
> Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
>
Ase pou to Islam exei gamw tous paradeisous me fai, gomenes etc.,
oxi tis andies tis dikes mas. :-) An imoun 0rnskos, ki emena mallon gia
Mousoulmano me evlepa.
Dimitris
lin...@hotmail.com
"Sostratus" <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> I think you are both off-topic. The guy was not a Christian to convert to
> Islam. He was a soviet citizen and as he claims he was an atheist.
It is like you say, exactly. I must add that I was baptized but rather
formally. After the end of Soviet rule for a while I tried to become Catholic
Christian but I was unable to accept such concepts as Deity of Jesus, "Son of
God", "Trinity", Eucharist as Blood and Flesh of Christ(I guess any thinking
man has some difficulty in accepting them) and certain sides of cult as idol
worship in churches(pictures and statues) - it contradicts Biblical
commandments of God. Also such thing as confession with a priest looked quite
disgusting to me. I started to really believe in God only when I started to
read Qur'an.
> Many
> people kept their orthodox faith hidden under the soviet rule although being
> considered 'atheists', and this was shown clearly in the days after the
> reformation.
It is truth, some people have hidden their faith.
But this guy considers himself as not being an Orthodox
> believer even before this, so he selected Islam, when faced the religion
> subject, for his own reasons.
One thing to add here: in Lithuania, where I live the majority faith is
Catholic (nominally 90% of population) not Orthodox. There are no ethnic
Lithuanian of Orthodox faith. Orthodox faith in Lithuania is represented only
by Russian or Ucrainian immigrants who migrated during Soviet rule. Eastern
Slavs make some 10% of Lithuanian population but the percentage of atheists
is bigger among them than among Lithuanians.
Among ethnic Lithuanian there are also small percentage of Protestants of
various denominations. Muslim population is about 5000-6000 people and
represented mostly by Tatars. They are generally little observant.
How much there are people in Lithuania who are really commited to Catholicism
or Orthodoxy it is difficult to say. I have seen some statistics which says
that 40% of Lithuanians don't believe in God. From remaining 60% not a small
part hold quite a vague concept about God and are atheists for all practical
purposes. However the number of practicing Christians is not negligible.
lin...@hotmail.com
forbidden for Muslims to consume. Guess, please, what animal?
Abdurrahman Linas Kondratas
In article <6ucedq$mr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.A41.4.02.980923...@dante33.u.washington.edu>, The
> turkish dog Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> barked:
>
> > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 belo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > "The priest had been interrupted giving liturgy in Agia Sophia by the
> arrival
> > > of the 'turkish dogs'. He had disappeared in a pillar, where he is
awaiting
> > > the return of his children."
> > >
> > > Glorious only for the turks. Tuesday 29 May, 1453 is a cursed day. May
the
> > > children of the house of osman be cursed and damned for eternity. May they
> > > receive the killing, pain and suffering they have brought upon the
Hellenes
> > > tenfold.
> >
> > Oh, no! We're scared! Please take back the curse.
>
> First of all dog, if me and your little mongol bastard midget ass were to
> fight one on one I could probably have no problem breaking you little neck,
> but being the gypsies turks really are you multiply like there is no
> tommorow. A gypsy family always has more than 4 kids, because they need them
> to run around and beg for money. By the way, how's the inflation back home,
> has it gone under 90%? If you think we are scared of you, wake up...! If you
> think you are going to have an easy time if a conflict breaks out because of
> Cyprus, wake up...! Even though you have 6 times more population you only
> have twice as many weapons than us, we are very heavily armed for only 10
> million. Second, do you really think 20 million Kurds will fight for you
> after all you have done to them?
>
> > The "Turkish Dogs" will not be going anywhere, Dimitri,
> > so don't hold your breath.
>
> Hey Can does it really bother you to know that you are really a bastard
> because you are not really turkish but, rather a mixture of Ottomans, Jews,
> Kurds, Albanians, Slavs, Greeks and Armenians? I mean, really how many
blond
> haired Ottomans were there in Mohammed II's time? But look at you know,
> black hair, blond hair, brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes. I assume ottomans
> felt very inferior genetically and were very willing to have bastard children
> with people from other ethnicities. Right Can?
>
> > Ti? Dev katalabaivw. Milate Agglika?
>
> To xepo pe mouvopavo, poutavas fapa oti dev milas ellnvika....
>
GS
lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I think this Mr.(or Ms.) Beloved is similar to certain creature whose flesh is
> forbidden for Muslims to consume. Guess, please, what animal?
>
> Abdurrahman Linas Kondratas
Then it might be best not to post with the same, as harram. This would effectively
remove this thread from anm where the subject is hardly pertinent.
cansu...@usa.net
> >squabbling with Macedonians, and whether ANM is a "Greek" newsgroup is not
> >of immediate concern to SCT. It only shows that because the newsgroup has
> >the word "macedonia" in it, some of you are restless to invade it with
> >folk songs and other Greek things. Then they do the same to your
> >newsgroup.
>
> Do you want me to tell you what has to do with sct ? I'll tell you what has
> to do. As long as you're referring to the nation of FYROM as "Macedonians"
> it will always has something to do. You are quite experienced in these NGs
> to know very well the netiquette label used for the people of FYROM. That
> is, Macedonians do not exist as a separate nation but they are Greeks living
> in Macedonia which is one and only and is Northern Greece. And, PLEASE don't
> bring me CIA statistics on nations etc etc. I'm full of it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I believe you :)
So do you search out every newsgroup discussion where this Macedonia/FYROM
issue is mentioned?
>
> >No I don't want it to spill over to SCT.
>
> So, try to follow the scg terms instead.
>
I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums because
of the name of these people's country.
Jon Papadimitriou
>
> In article <6ud875$kl9$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
> "Sostratus" <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> > I think you are both off-topic. The guy was not a Christian to convert to
> > Islam. He was a soviet citizen and as he claims he was an atheist.
>
> It is like you say, exactly. I must add that I was baptized but rather
> formally. After the end of Soviet rule for a while I tried to become Catholic
> Christian but I was unable to accept such concepts as Deity of Jesus, "Son of
> God", "Trinity", Eucharist as Blood and Flesh of Christ(I guess any thinking
> man has some difficulty in accepting them) and certain sides of cult as idol
> worship in churches(pictures and statues) - it contradicts Biblical
> commandments of God. Also such thing as confession with a priest looked quite
> disgusting to me. I started to really believe in God only when I started to
> read Qur'an.
Abdulrahman,
Sorry that I thought you were a Turk. OK...Lithuanian Muslim!!
As for the above, you state that certain beliefs (not concepts .. mind
you) of Christians were not acceptable to you. I agree that it is
difficult to accept these beliefs, but at the same time, there are
beliefs in Islam that are hard to accept. For instance, you believe
that Mohammed was transported from Madinah to Jerusalem overnight on the
wings of angels. (please correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, it
sounds to me that your Allah is not a forgiving deity. Someone wrote
recently that if a Muslim strays from his beliefs, Allah will despise
him and abandon him. This sounds like a very dictatorial God. In
Christianity, we believe in a forgiving God. If someone strays from
God, God will go out of His way to bring this person back to Him...like
a shepherd will do with a lost sheep. Thus, Christianity believes in a
benevolent God.
Furthermore, from what I know of Islam, it is a stagnant religion. In
other words, it cannot progress with the times. For example, during
Ramadan, a Muslim should fast from dawn until sunset. There are
exceptions...one of these being that it is OK to break the fast if one
is travelling. This might have been reasonable in the times of Mohammed
where travellers would be out in the desert in the heat. But, in the
20th Century, one travels by air, by train, by car etc. Since Muslims
follow the Koran literally, this traveller can break his fast...right??
Just a thought!!!
Sostratus
cansu...@usa.net wrote in message <6uds74$i34$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<snip>
>I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums
because
>of the name of these people's country.
Sure, you really don't care of the name of this country 'cause it's silly
for you. But when the subject goes to the name of your city (you know which
one), then you really-really care, isn't so ? What a hypocritical behaviour
!
Sostratus.
Can Subaykan
...
> sounds to me that your Allah is not a forgiving deity. Someone wrote
> recently that if a Muslim strays from his beliefs, Allah will despise
> him and abandon him. This sounds like a very dictatorial God. In
> Christianity, we believe in a forgiving God. If someone strays from
> God, God will go out of His way to bring this person back to Him...like
> a shepherd will do with a lost sheep. Thus, Christianity believes in a
> benevolent God.
Every single Muslim prayer begins with the following:
"In the name of Allah the Merciful, the Beneficent"
Mercy and forgiveness are repeatedly and often mentioned in the Quran as
God's attributes. Yes, we do believe in a forgiving God.
Sinners are always encouraged to return to God, and He is forgiving. The
only unforgiveable sin is "shirk" which is attributing other gods to the
one and only Almighty God, Allah.
> Furthermore, from what I know of Islam, it is a stagnant religion. In
> other words, it cannot progress with the times. For example, during
It can, but unfortunately many Muslims give off this impression. We are
supposed to search for knowledge and study. There is a saying of the
Prophet Muhammad "The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the
martyr."
These days are the darkest days for the Islamic world; Science and arts
flourished in the Islamic world in the past centuries. Islam is not
"stagnant" but unfortunately today's Muslims often are.
> Ramadan, a Muslim should fast from dawn until sunset. There are
> exceptions...one of these being that it is OK to break the fast if one
> is travelling. This might have been reasonable in the times of Mohammed
> where travellers would be out in the desert in the heat. But, in the
> 20th Century, one travels by air, by train, by car etc. Since Muslims
> follow the Koran literally, this traveller can break his fast...right??
I travel to work in the morning, that isn't the point. The hardship of
"travel" can vary. It can be too physically demanding to fast (no food
nor water) while traveling, whether in the desert by camel or on a train.
>
> Just a thought!!!
>
>
Though is always good. keep thinking.
Can Subaykan
> cansu...@usa.net wrote in message <6uds74$i34$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums
> because
> >of the name of these people's country.
>
>
> Sure, you really don't care of the name of this country 'cause it's silly
> for you. But when the subject goes to the name of your city (you know which
> one), then you really-really care, isn't so ? What a hypocritical behaviour
> !
>
I know you are smart enough to know that I made clear what I
objected to. The claims that Istanbul belongs to Greece, and some
people were asserting that claim by the name usage. It was not about
what name to use in what language, it was about "Konstantinople is the
heart of the Greek empire, and we will take it back, it's ours..." kind
of bullshit.
There is an Azerbaijan region in northern Iran. There is also an
independent country named Azerbaijan. I don't see Iran throwing tantrums
like Greece over Macedonia.
Nikos Sarantakos
<tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>cansu...@usa.net wrote in message <6uds74$i34$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums
>because
>>of the name of these people's country.
>
>
>Sure, you really don't care of the name of this country 'cause it's silly
>for you. But when the subject goes to the name of your city (you know which
>one), then you really-really care, isn't so ? What a hypocritical behaviour
>!
A good point!
ns
Can Subaykan
! I answered this already, my concern was not a linguistic one. My
concern was for ludicrous claims that Istanbul belongs to Greece.
And perhaps I should be more clear what I mean by "i dont care". I dont
care to follow these squabbles about Macedonia on the Greek newsgroup.
That was what my response to Sostratus was about.
You guys should start a campaign to harass the city of Athens, Georgia USA
Nikos Sarantakos
<guly...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>
>> <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >cansu...@usa.net wrote in message <6uds74$i34$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>> >>I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums
>> >because
>> >>of the name of these people's country.
>> >
>> >
>> >Sure, you really don't care of the name of this country 'cause it's silly
>> >for you. But when the subject goes to the name of your city (you know which
>> >one), then you really-really care, isn't so ? What a hypocritical behaviour
>> >!
>>
>> A good point!
>>
>
>! I answered this already, my concern was not a linguistic one. My
>concern was for ludicrous claims that Istanbul belongs to Greece.
I have already (more or less) agreed with you on that point earlier.
>
>And perhaps I should be more clear what I mean by "i dont care". I dont
>care to follow these squabbles about Macedonia on the Greek newsgroup.
>That was what my response to Sostratus was about.
Yes, but Sos's in his retort *had* a good point.
Mind you, some of our neighbors from FYROM/RoM do have irredentist and
ludicrous claims over the Greek province of Macedonia, so the case is
not dissimilar with the Istanbul/Constantinople one. Actually, it is
much worse -because, whereas the Greek "claims" to Istanbul are a
romantic joke of a fringe, the irredentist claims of our neighbours
are more or less espoused by a big share of the political forces
there.
Without the said irredentist names, it would be far easier to reach
a solution to the name issue -a triviality per se.
ns
Nikos Sarantakos
ns
Without the said irredentist claims, it would be far easier to reach
Cybiades
Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
Pine.A41.4.02.980924...@dante19.u.washington.edu...
>
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>
>> <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >cansu...@usa.net wrote in message
<6uds74$i34$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>> >>I don't really care, it seems silly to me. Greeks throwing tantrums
>> >because
>> >>of the name of these people's country.
>> >
>> >
>> >Sure, you really don't care of the name of this country 'cause it's
silly
>> >for you. But when the subject goes to the name of your city (you know
which
>> >one), then you really-really care, isn't so ? What a hypocritical
behaviour
>> >!
>>
>> A good point!
>>
>
>! I answered this already, my concern was not a linguistic one. My
>concern was for ludicrous claims that Istanbul belongs to Greece.
>
>care to follow these squabbles about Macedonia on the Greek newsgroup.
>That was what my response to Sostratus was about.
>
There's an Athens in Texas too...I think you'll find about 20 states have an
Athens, a Sparta, a Rome etc, in them. American imagination at its best.
Well Georgia in the Caucasus might declare war on the Peach State one day
over the name too :) They're probably the ones behind the bomb attack at the
Olympics!
Can Subaykan
>
> There's an Athens in Texas too...I think you'll find about 20 states have an
> Athens, a Sparta, a Rome etc, in them. American imagination at its best.
> Well Georgia in the Caucasus might declare war on the Peach State one day
> over the name too :) They're probably the ones behind the bomb attack at the
> Olympics!
>
There is a Moscow in Idaho, an Egypt here in Washington. There is also a
Paris in Texas. And a Lebanon in Pennsylvania (I think).
I saw on the news today that the Olympic committee has copyrights over the
name "Olympic", and they may take legal action against local businesses
{here in Washington state} that have the word "Olympic" in their names.
(We have an area here the "Olympic Peninsula" and the "Olympic Mountains"
so if there is an "Olympic Grocery" or "Olympic Video" store, they might
be in trouble.)
lin...@hotmail.com
Jon Papadimitriou <evry...@geocities.nospam.com> wrote:
> lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6ud875$kl9$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
> > "Sostratus" <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> > > I think you are both off-topic. The guy was not a Christian to convert to
> > > Islam. He was a soviet citizen and as he claims he was an atheist.
> >
> > It is like you say, exactly. I must add that I was baptized but rather
> > formally. After the end of Soviet rule for a while I tried to become
Catholic
> > Christian but I was unable to accept such concepts as Deity of Jesus, "Son
of
> > God", "Trinity", Eucharist as Blood and Flesh of Christ(I guess any thinking
> > man has some difficulty in accepting them) and certain sides of cult as idol
> > worship in churches(pictures and statues) - it contradicts Biblical
> > commandments of God. Also such thing as confession with a priest looked
quite
> > disgusting to me. I started to really believe in God only when I started to
> > read Qur'an.
>
> Abdulrahman,
>
> Sorry that I thought you were a Turk. OK...Lithuanian Muslim!!
You need not to apologize. Because my position about Ottoman/Greek history and
current situation is more or less like that of Turks.
> As for the above, you state that certain beliefs (not concepts .. mind
> you) of Christians were not acceptable to you. I agree that it is
> difficult to accept these beliefs, but at the same time, there are
> beliefs in Islam that are hard to accept. For instance, you believe
> that Mohammed was transported from Madinah to Jerusalem overnight on the
> wings of angels. (please correct me if I'm wrong).
It is not difficult to believe that because this doesn't involve any logical
contradiction. While to believe that Jesus is at the some time God, Son of
God, son of Man, full man and full god etc. is a little bit more harder. To
believe that there are three persons, and yet they are one God, all three are
coequal, coeternal, and yet Son is born from Father, Spirit proceeds from
father, the Son doesn't know the Hour, only Father knows etc, the sin against
the Son is pardoned, against the Holy Spirit - not.
Second big problem. I don't see any need in Saviour. Allah is merciful,
compassionate(rahman, raheem), all forgiving(ghafoor) therefore He can simply
forgive our sins. To suppose that God must sacrifice his "own Son" who is
totally innocent person, in order to save sinner, although he is King he
commands what he wills, he can simply pardon to whom he wants.
Also it is difficult to believe in "original sin" which says that even babies
are sinful. If Adam sinned this is his fault not ours. Islam instead believes
in Evil commanding self(nafs ammara) which compels man to do evil and
volontarily listens to the whisperings of Satan. By sincere belief and
religious practice man can subdue his base Self and purify it. In our
dua(suuplications) we often ask God to save us "min shuroori anfusina" from
the evil of our souls.
> Furthermore, it
> sounds to me that your Allah is not a forgiving deity. Someone wrote
> recently that if a Muslim strays from his beliefs, Allah will despise
> him and abandon him. This sounds like a very dictatorial God. In
> Christianity, we believe in a forgiving God. If someone strays from
> God, God will go out of His way to bring this person back to Him...like
> a shepherd will do with a lost sheep. Thus, Christianity believes in a
> benevolent God.
Prophet(pbuh) said: If person repents and returns to God, then God is so happy
as Arab who had lost his camel in the middle of the desert and then found it.
> Furthermore, from what I know of Islam, it is a stagnant religion. In
> other words, it cannot progress with the times. For example, during
> Ramadan, a Muslim should fast from dawn until sunset. There are
> exceptions...one of these being that it is OK to break the fast if one
> is travelling. This might have been reasonable in the times of Mohammed
> where travellers would be out in the desert in the heat. But, in the
> 20th Century, one travels by air, by train, by car etc. Since Muslims
> follow the Koran literally, this traveller can break his fast...right??
Can Subaykan has given good answer for it.
Abdurrahman L. Kondratas
Agamemnon
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
The term Olympic is an "original" term reserved by the EU excessively
for the use of Greece and Greek companies only. eg. "Olympic Airways".
As with the term "Marathon" the Olympic committee can only use these
terms with the permission of Greece to imply "Origin", which it has been
given in the interests of Sport.. One chocolate Manufacturer (Mars) has
already had to stop using the term "Marathon" on its products which were
never manufactured in Greece.
The Olympic committee may have a copyright over the expression "Olympic
Games" ie. firms cannot simply call themselves "Official sponsor of the
Olympic Games" ", or "Official Olympic Games Stadium" but can call
themselves "Olympic Stadium" and the symbol of the "Olympic flag" may be
copyrighted as a trade mark, but I doubt this since I remember the
Olympic rings appearing on the flag of a member of the Commonwealth, but
since EU law will not allow any one person to copyright the place names
of EU member states or aspects of European history such as the
"Olympics", I doubt that anyone can win any cases since the word Olympic
meaning "everyone joining in" has been in common usage for 100's of
years, its not like Coka-Cola.
Sostratus
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Cybiades wrote:
>> There's an Athens in Texas too...I think you'll find about 20 states have
an
>> Athens, a Sparta, a Rome etc, in them. American imagination at its best.
>> Well Georgia in the Caucasus might declare war on the Peach State one day
>> over the name too :) They're probably the ones behind the bomb attack at
the
>> Olympics!
>There is a Moscow in Idaho, an Egypt here in Washington. There is also a
>Paris in Texas. And a Lebanon in Pennsylvania (I think).
<snip>
But there is only ONE Constantinople and only ONE Macedonia !
Sostratus.
cansu...@usa.net
"Agamemnon" <argyros.argyrou@remove_to_send_email.ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
> >
> a
> >Paris in Texas. And a Lebanon in Pennsylvania (I think).
> >
So are there Greek lobbyists in the US trying to take legal action against
the Boston Marathon, the New York Marathon?? Here in Washington, there is a
chain of boat stores, called "Olympic Boat Centers". I wonder if there will
be some lawsuit against them. :) The capitol of our state, Washington, is
Olympia. Maybe they should chage it.
In fact, why don't you guys copyright all Greek words, so that the English
language is crippled without them. :)
On the subject of copyrights.. The company which first built escalators was
named The Escalator company or some such name.. They never got copyrights to
the name, now "escalator" is the generic name, no matter who designs it.
There are other examples like this, but they escape me right now..
Can (C) Subaykan (R) (TM)
OpaTennant
Pilarinos wrote in message
><6uetc3$r...@news9.noc.netcom.net>
>In soc.culture.greek lin...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I think this Mr.(or Ms.) Beloved is similar to certain creature whose flesh
is
>> forbidden for Muslims to consume. Guess, please, what animal?
>
>
>It's a shame that cannibalism is considered a moral no-no in humans, but
>for Muslims it's a religious doctrine.
>
>
Wrong! For CHRISTIANS it's a religious precept AND practice. The Eucharist,
which involves the "eating of the flesh" of Christ and the "drinking of his
blood" is a symbolic act of cannabalism, which hearkens back to the darkest
days of paganism, as does the concept of human sacrifice.
Krisztina
cansu...@usa.net
"Sostratus" <tts...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
> >There is a Moscow in Idaho, an Egypt here in Washington. There is also a
> >Paris in Texas. And a Lebanon in Pennsylvania (I think).
>
>
> But there is only ONE Constantinople and only ONE Macedonia !
>
There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've got a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why the changed it, I can't say
People just liked it better that way
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks'
Sostratus
cansu...@usa.net wrote in message <6uglit$epf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>> >There is a Moscow in Idaho, an Egypt here in Washington. There is also a
>> >Paris in Texas. And a Lebanon in Pennsylvania (I think).
>> <snip>
>> But there is only ONE Constantinople and only ONE Macedonia !
>There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
<snip>
Agamemnon, Agamemnon I need the lyrics of 'Dirlanda, dirlandada' ! Quick my
friend ! Post this reply to the ignorants !
TIA.
Sostratus.
Agamemnon
Sostratus wrote in message <6ugplo$u0$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>...
O dirlanda dirlanda da
O dirlanda ke teza oli
ke pos tha paroume tin Poli
apo ti Poli yin kali
irthe mia skouna me pani
O dirlanda ke then telioni
O dirlanda me zakharoni
na to khoro pou me kita
O dirlanda vre ke vrathiazi
ke i kouverta anastenazi
ke o mayeras fonazi
O dirlansa ke teza oli
ke pos tha paroume tin Poli
apo tin poli tin kali
irthe mia skouna me pani
O dirlanda ke i Maria toy Mina
epano st'aspro tis podari
tha pao na deso palamari
thha deso kobo sto kobali
stin Katerina tou Tsangari
O dirlanda tha tin valo
mes tin plori ke tha tis
kano yio ke kori
O dirlanda ke sis levendes
tha sas doso ego violettes
tha doso s'olous apo dio
vre ke tou Giorgi then tou dino
Can Subaykan
> >There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>
> >And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
>
> <snip>
>
> Agamemnon, Agamemnon I need the lyrics of 'Dirlanda, dirlandada' ! Quick my
> friend ! Post this reply to the ignorants !
>
> TIA.
>
Still when he first posted it, nobody would translate that song.
Sostratus has been writing more angrily than usual :)
Nikos Sarantakos
>
>There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>
>And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
>
>Istanbul was Constantinople
Out of curiosity, this song that you post so frequently, Can,
is it yours? I mean, did you write it?
ns
Can Subaykan
No, this song is quite old. I don't know who wrote it. But I have heard
the old version once on the radio, I think it's from the earlier part of
the century. Perhaps the 1940's.
This song was made popular recently (1980's ??) by a group called "They
Might Be Giants".
A Russian friend of mine, when we first met, sang me this song in Russian.
He said, "You're from Istanbul. We have a song, Istanbul Constantinople
...." the rest was in Russkie.
It sounds sort of like a swing beat.
Nevzat Akdemir
> to do. As long as you're referring to the nation of FYROM as "Macedonians"
> it will always has something to do.
Bull shit!! You don't dictate people what to say!!!!!
> You are quite experienced in these NGs
> to know very well the netiquette label used for the people of FYROM. That
> is, Macedonians do not exist as a separate nation but they are Greeks living
> in Macedonia which is one and only and is Northern Greece.
>
Ha ha ha. You are funnier than a pregnant nun. Macedonia exist as an
independent state. It has nothing to do with "netiquette". Netiquette
is set of rules for not to calling people, like you for example, faggots.
Understood?
> And, PLEASE don't
> bring me CIA statistics on nations etc etc. I'm full of it.
Sure you are full of it. For the wrong reasons.
>
>
> >No I don't want it to spill over to SCT.
>
> So, try to follow the scg terms instead.
Oh, now you've got terms. Put 'em in the trash can.
>
>
> Sostratus.
nevzat
Nevzat Akdemir
> There's an Athens in Texas too...I think you'll find about 20 states have an
> Athens, a Sparta, a Rome etc, in them. American imagination at its best.
> Well Georgia in the Caucasus might declare war on the Peach State one day
> over the name too :) They're probably the ones behind the bomb attack at the
> Olympics!
Wow!!! This is funny material. Did you ever do stand-up?
A truely creative imagination.
I think you are one of the gems on the Internet.
Regards,
nevzat
pka...@cc.ece.ntua.gr
sar...@village.uunet.lu wrote:
> Mind you, some of our neighbors from [Vardarska] do have irredentist and
> ludicrous claims over the Greek province of Macedonia, so the case is
> not dissimilar with the Istanbul/Constantinople one.
I would say that it is rather quite dissimilar instead.
I think that the case of Macedonia would have been similar to the one of
Constantinople if the fact that some of our Vardarian neighbours do have
irredentist claims over Macedonia had caused the Greek government to impose an
artificial change of the name of Macedonia to, e.g., "Hyperthessalia" in all
the languages in the world except Vardarian, so that the cultural, historical
and ethnological heritage of the region be not transparent to a user of this
name.
However, instead of being interested in hiding the cultural, historical and
ethnological heritage of Macedonia, as I hope you can perceive, the Greek
government is rather interested in preserving and highlighting this heritage,
so that its Greekness is made aware of.
On the contrary, the fact that some Greeks are thought to have "irredentist"
claims over Constantinople has indeed caused the Turkish regime to impose an
artificial change of the name of Constantinople in all the languages in the
world except Greek, so that the cultural, historical and ethnological heritage
of the city be not transparent to a user of this name - notwithstanding the
fact that the origin of that new name is Greek as well.
Moreover, some Vardarian political forces are desperately trying to present
the heritage of Macedonia as non-Greek, by claiming it to be "Macedonian", as
if the name "Macedonia" were of non-Greek or Slavic origin, or as if the
conquests of Alexander the Great had led to the "slavistic" age.
Thus, the other way around, the case of Constantinople would have been
similar to the one of Macedonia if the Turkish regime were maintaining the
name of Constantinople while desperately trying to present its heritage as
non- Greek. Actually they are doing so in a way, since in Turkish history
books you will read that in 1453 the Ottomans conquered the capital of the
Roman Empire, with no reference to the Greekness of that empire at all, as if
the population of the city were exclaiming that "La domina Urbs capta est!"
instead of "H Polis ealw!" at that time. Anyway, the absence of reference to
the Greekness of that empire does not constitute a falsification of history
in its own, but only an incompleteness of historical analysis.
> Without the said irredentist claims, it would be far easier to reach
> a solution to the name issue -a triviality per se.
I agree.
Panagiotis Karras
pka...@cc.ece.ntua.gr
> You need not to apologize. Because my position about Ottoman/Greek history and
> current situation is more or less like that of Turks.
What exactly do you imply by that? Can you please be more specific? You
see, it would be very interesting for us to see an *educated* third-party
viewpoint.
> It is not difficult to believe that because this doesn't involve any logical
> contradiction. While to believe that Jesus is at the some time God, Son of
> God, son of Man, full man and full god etc. is a little bit more harder. To
> believe that there are three persons, and yet they are one God, all three are
> coequal, coeternal, and yet Son is born from Father, Spirit proceeds from
> father, the Son doesn't know the Hour, only Father knows etc, the sin against
> the Son is pardoned, against the Holy Spirit - not.
I see. Therefrom it appears to me that I could deduce that you are not
particularly capacious to think abstractly and you never believed the
following mathematical propositions:
i) d/dx (exp(x)) = exp(x)
ii) [log(x)]^(-1) = exp(x)
, since it appears to me that you consider it to be impossible that one
thing be at the some time itself, a derivation of itself, and an appearance
of something else as well.
> [...] believe that there are three persons, and yet they are one God.
I see. Then maybe the following proposition would also be, as it appears to
me, probably characterized as illogical and certainly wrong by you:
iii) The set of even numbers plus the set of odd numbers is equal to the set
of natural numbers, yet the sizes of these three sets are all equal to
each other.
, since it seems to me that you are not totally ready to accept that a
thing can contain some parts which are equal to itself.
You know, I had been a very annoying student to my professors of religious
affairs in high school and I disagreed with them in plenty of issues, yet
these questions had never bothered me. It really appears strange to me that
they bother you, therefore I can only make the following comment:
I believe that it was a well balanced choice of yours to be baptized as a
Muslim. I think that you have made the correct decision for yourself.
Congratulations! I wish you that you find your own existential completeness
through the religion you have chosen for yourself. Good luck!
> Second big problem. I don't see any need in Saviour. Allah is merciful,
> compassionate(rahman, raheem), all forgiving(ghafoor) therefore He can simply
> forgive our sins. To suppose that God must sacrifice his "own Son" who is
> totally innocent person, in order to save sinner, although he is King he
> commands what he wills, he can simply pardon to whom he wants.
I see that the my unfamiliarity with your mentality is much deeper than a
simple apparentness to my part of insufficiency for - or rejection of -
abstract thought on your part.
Maybe you should consider that the sacrifice of Jesus symbolizes the need of
man/woman to be forgiven and the necessity of some effort towards that goal.
Anyway, it appears to me that the only suggestion I can really make to you
is this: Do not demand from the christian religion to make sense in practical
business-language terms. There is no way this can be done. Maybe "God is a
mathematician", but it does not appear (to me) that He is a
businessman/woman.
> [...] If Adam sinned this is his fault not ours.
Again it seems to me that you miss the point of symbolization and face
everything as if you were in the marketplace.
Anyway, no matter our differences of mentality, philosophy and biotheory, I
think that it is a positive situation that you have posted those reflections
of yours on the intellectual hardships/contradictions of yours concerning
christian symbolizations and I think that it is also beneficial for other
people, like myself, to see how you think.
I am particularly interested on your answer to my first question in this
message.
my regards,
Sostratus
OpaTennant wrote in message <19980925122949...@ng31.aol.com>...
>Krisztina
Did you know that it is fresh flesh from fatlings ? The blood is also fresh
and is mostly human (catamenia).
Sostratus.
Sostratus
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>> >There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
> >And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
>> <snip>
>> Agamemnon, Agamemnon I need the lyrics of 'Dirlanda, dirlandada' !
Quick my
>> friend ! Post this reply to the ignorants !
>> TIA.
>
>Still when he first posted it, nobody would translate that song.
>Sostratus has been writing more angrily than usual :)
Nope. I just like this song. Now some homework. Open your lexicons.
Sostratus.
Sostratus
Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>
>> >There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>> >And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
>> >Istanbul was Constantinople
>> Out of curiosity, this song that you post so frequently, Can,
>> is it yours? I mean, did you write it?
>No, this song is quite old. I don't know who wrote it. But I have heard
>the old version once on the radio, I think it's from the earlier part of
>the century. Perhaps the 1940's.
>
>This song was made popular recently (1980's ??) by a group called "They
>Might Be Giants".
But.... as we have said already:..
THEY MIGHT BE ALSO DWARVES ! ! !
Sostratus.
Agamemnon
Sostratus wrote in message <6uju86$od8$1...@medousa.forthnet.gr>...
>
>Can Subaykan wrote in message ...
>
>>> >There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>> >And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
> >> Agamemnon, Agamemnon I need the lyrics of 'Dirlanda, dirlandada' !
>Quick my
>>> friend ! Post this reply to the ignorants !
>>> TIA.
>>
>>Still when he first posted it, nobody would translate that song.
>>Sostratus has been writing more angrily than usual :)
>
>Nope. I just like this song. Now some homework. Open your lexicons.
>
Damn, you've scratched my record.
Can Subaykan
> >Still when he first posted it, nobody would translate that song.
> >Sostratus has been writing more angrily than usual :)
>
> Nope. I just like this song. Now some homework. Open your lexicons.
>
>
Ena lepto. 8a dei3te th frash sto biblio.
oxi... i can't find it..
Nikos Sarantakos
>>
>
>>> >There is a city in Ohio called Macedonia.
>
>>> >And here is a song for you, I know you know this song:
>
>
>>> Out of curiosity, this song that you post so frequently, Can,
>>> is it yours? I mean, did you write it?
>
>>No, this song is quite old. I don't know who wrote it. But I have heard
>>the old version once on the radio, I think it's from the earlier part of
>>the century. Perhaps the 1940's.
>>
>>This song was made popular recently (1980's ??) by a group called "They
>>Might Be Giants".
>
(still out of curiosity)
A song written by Turks in the 40s with English lyrics?
Amazing...
Or it was you who translated it?
And what kind of music is it?
nikos
Can Subaykan
No no.. It was not a song written by the Turks. It was a song in English.
I think it's an old American song. I don't know who originally wrote it.
It is not a translation from Turkish. As I said, this same song also
exists in Russian; perhaps it might be an old Russian song. I've only
heard the song a couple of times, it sounded a little like swing music.
Maybe you can ask Agamemnon to put it on his website in RealAudio. :)
Cybiades
Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@accesscom.net> wrote in message
360CB359...@accesscom.net...
Naturally, I have Greek blood. Creativity, imagination and gems are things
that come naturally to us. Better luck next life, dude.