Sumptwmata e8vikou ekfulismou
Phidias Bourlas
Suxva akougovtai krauges tou stul "ftavei pia, dev avtexoume allo,
andiasame, bare8nkame, kourastnkame me tis ellnvotourkikes avti8eseis,
diamaxes, polemous", suvodeuomeves apo to eufuolognma "eimaste 1000
xrovia ex8roi, ara eivai kairos va sumfiliw8oume". (Po8ev to "ara",
otav ta 1000 xrovia to akribws avti8eto sumperasma upoballouv, kai
giati to "ara" prepei va isxuei sta 1000 kai oxi sta 990 n' ta 1010
xrovia, Kurios oide.)
Omws ta parapavw eivai pavta ekfraseis agvns pistews se uynla
idavika (eirnvn, dikaiosuvn, av8rwpismos, k.lp.) n' to avti8eto,
ekdnlwseis atomismou, idioteleias, e8vikns kopwsns kai ekfulismou;
Kourastnkame kai bare8nkame ti; Mnpws va uperaspizoume tnv patrida
mas; Tnv opoia mas paredwsav oi epi xilieties akourasta agwvis8evtes
progovoi mas; Mnpws viw8oume polu baru to fortio pou mas paredwsav
kai, avti tns uposxesews twv vearwv Spartiatwv, tou "ames de g'
esome8a pollw karoves", ekfrazoume tnv epi8umia va 3alafrwsoume;
F.M.
Kostas
Agaphte Fidia,
Prwsopika den eimai uper ths symfiliwshs me tous Tourkous. Ahdiazw mono otan
oi sumpatriwtes mas sumperifwrontai me apolitisto tropo. San Ellhnes prepei na
eimaste panta ayogoi, kai oxi na katebainoume sto epipedo tous.
Den xreiazetai na ginoume kolhtoi me tous Tourkous, alla oute xreiazetai na
eimaste sunexeia sta maxairia. Hdh to exoun muristei oti plhsiazei o kairos
pou 8a au3hsoume ta xwrika mas ydata, kai gi'auto prospa8oun na efeuroun
kainourgia 8emata opws ta Imia, gia na to ka8usterhsoun oso ginetai; Oso gia
tis parabiaseis,auto pou prospa8oun na petuxoun, einai na mas kanoun na
skontapsoume (px na tous ri3oume ena aeroplano), gia na meiw8ei to kuros mas
sthn EU. Dhladh diplwmatikh gkafa.
O oikonomikos polemos pou tous kanoume einai h swsth politikh, kai gi'auto mas
kaloun sunexeia se diapragmateuseis. Kai nai, na yposthrizoume thn patrida kai
ta e8nika mas symferonta. De shmainei omws oti prepei na sumperiferomaste san
barbaroi. Den mas timoun oi epi8eseis mas sthn koultoura tous, oute oi
prwsopikes epi8eseis se memonomena atoma! Sumfwneis?
Xairetismous,
Kwstas
----------------------------------------------------
Every talent must unfold itself in fighting: that is
the command of Hellenic popular pedagogy, whereas
modern educators dread nothing more than the un-
leashing of so-called ambition....
Precisely where modern man senses the weakness of a
work of art, the Hellene seeks the source of its
greatest strength.
----------------------------------------------------
Frederick Nietzsce - Homer's Contest (1872)
mkrok...@aol.com
Agaphte file Fidia,
Gnorizw kala polous apo autous pou presbebouv thv envotikotita sto bwmo
ths eirhvhs. Pisteuw omws oti einai ligoi. Aisthanomai poly perifanos gia
sympatriwtes san esena. Nomizw oti eimaste pleiwpsifia. O agonas
synexeizetai!!
Oson afora to thema Imbrou, h stratighkh -pou nomizw doulebei einai: Den
zhtame tipota - alla oute dinoume tipota!
Auto deixvei stous skeftomenous Europaious mia katharh Thesh, eno h
Toukikh kybervish alazei diekdhkiseis kathe toso. Gia mia stigmh fantasou
oti eisai Belgos kai blepeis tis dyo pleyres. Me pia pleyra tha teiveis na
pas??
To thema einai na antimetopisoume thn Tourkikh arpaktikothta me Odyseio
tropo!
Mhn ksexvas to neo amyntiko programa ths Elladas. Se pevte xrovia tha
exoume paromies ikanotites me to Israhl. Tote blepoume!!
Me patriwtikous xairetismous
Agamemnon Krokidas
Phidias Bourlas
mkrok...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Agaphte file Feidia,
> Gnorizw kala polous apo autous pou presbebouv thv envotikotita sto bwmo
> ths eirhvhs. Pisteuw omws oti einai ligoi. Aisthanomai poly perifanos gia
> sympatriwtes san esena. Nomizw oti eimaste pleiwpsifia. O agonas
> synexeizetai!!
>
twv opoiwv eivai pavta pro8umn, perissotero apo oso egw, va kavei to
ka8nkov tns.
> Oson afora to thema Imbrou, h stratighkh -pou nomizw doulebei einai: Den
> zhtame tipota - alla oute dinoume tipota!
> Auto deixvei stous skeftomenous Europaious mia katharh Thesh, eno h
> Toukikh kybervish allazei diekdhkiseis kathe toso. Gia mia stigmh fantasou
> oti eisai Belgos kai blepeis tis dyo pleyres. Me pia pleyra tha teiveis na
> pas??
>
Me tov isxuro. Oxi pws auto pou les dev exei basn, 8a e3ngnsw ti
evvow. Bebaiws dev mporei va bgei n kubervnsn kai va pei "8eloume tnv
Poln" oute eivai logikn kai realistikn mia tetoia epidiw3n. (Par' olo
pou proswpika de distazw va pw oti, 8ewrntika, bebaiws kai 8a n8ela
tnv Poln!) Oi Eurwpaioi loipov kai oi Amerikavoi de vomizw oti 8elouv
asta8eia sto Aigaio kai se oln tnv perioxn apo opou, suv tois allois,
8a perasouv oi agwgoi twv petrelaiwv. To av omws 8a apofugoume n' oxi
n sta8erotnta sto Aigaio va snmaivei ellnvo-tourkikn sugkuriarxia
(50%-50%) (me amerikavikn pavta epikuriarxia) n' oxi, e3artatai kai
apo tn dikn mas stasn.
Gia va mas upostnri3ouv prepei pavw ap' ola va eimaste a3iopistoi,
etsi wste va mporouv va basistouv pavw mas. Na 3erouv oti kati mporoume
va prosferoume. Auto mporei va givei movo eav kai me ta logia kai me
tis pra3eis apodeikvuoume ava pasa stigmn tnv apofasistikotnta mas va
uperaspisoume me _ka8e_ tropo ta e8vika mas sumferovta. Tote vai, 8a
mporouv va mas douv ws paragovta sta8erotntos kai va sugkratouv tnv
Tourkia otav parektrepetai.
Eav omws eimaste pro8umoi va upoxwroume evavti twv tourkikwv piesewv
kaveis de 8a mas sumparasta8ei, estw kai eav 8a to n8ele. Eav emeis
eimaste diate8eimevoi va apempolnsoume e8vika mas dikaia, oi 3evoi 8a
mas empodisouv; Eav de 8eloume va polemnsoume eav xreiastei gia ta
Imia (de lew ti eprepe va givei, milw epi tns arxns), perimevoume va
er8ouv oi duvameis tou NATO va polemnsouv autes gia mas; Oxi bebaia,
8a piesouv, logikotata, tou upoxwrntikous (dnl. emas) va upoxwrnsouv
gia va epiteux8ei n zntoumevn sta8erotnta.
Oso gia to dogma "de diekdikoume tipota", to 8ewrw megalo la8os
dioti mas fervei e3' arxns se 8esn pa8ntikns amuvas. Otav oloi gurw
mas diekdikouv, giati de diekdikoume emeis; Fobomaste mnpws xalasoume
tnv eikova tou kalou paidiou; H die8vns upostnri3n dev kerdizetai,
opws eipame, me upokuyeis, alla me tnv isxu, tnv a3iopistia, tnv
apofasistikotnta, tnv eueliktn kai e3upvn politikn.
Kai epavalambavw, de 8a bgoume bebaia va poume "8eloume tnv Poln".
Alla dev 3ekivw me auta pou de diekdikw, 3ekivw me auta pou diekdikw,
kai dev apokleiw a priori tipota. Epavaleitourgia tns 8eologikns Sxolns
tns Xalkns, autovomia tou Patriarxeiou, apoznmiwseis kai epistrofes
periousiwv kai politikwv-vomikwv dikaiwmatwv stous Ellnves tns Polns
kai stous apogovous tous, k.lp. k.lp. (Na mnv piasoume tnv Kupro kai
tn 8rakn.)
Eav de diekdikoume kai oi Tourkoi diekdikouv, dev mporoume
bebaiws va kavoume dialogo. (Ws pros ti; Poses diekdiknseis tous
8a ikavopoinsoume;) Etsi amuvomaste arvoumevoi to dialogo kai
emfavizomaste ws oi kakoi. Paradeigma; Des eva snmerivo mnvuma
(propagavdistiko bebaio, alla n propagavda pervaei):
> From: RACER <MX-R...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish, soc.culture.greek
>
> I don't get it. I thought Greece had ultimate respect for International
> courts. What do you think Mike Apoc? Weren't you asking about why two
> countries not going to International Court at Hague? Your Foreign
> Minister has the answer. Here it goes:
>
> GREEK FOREIGN MINISTER REJECTS SOLUTIONS PACKAGE
Suvexizei twra o mkrok...@aol.com:
>
> To thema einai na antimetopisoume thn Tourkikh arpaktikothta me Odyseio
> tropo!
> Mhn ksexvas to neo amyntiko programa ths Elladas. Se pevte xrovia tha
> exoume paromies ikanotites me to Israhl. Tote blepoume!!
>
Kala, osov afora tnv amuvtikn 8wrakisn tns xwras pisteuw oti exei
arxisei va givetai suveidnsn pws eftase o kairos gia erga, arketa me
ta logia. Hdn exoume ka8usternsei, eutuxws omws katalabame oti xwris
isxures Evoples Duvameis ta xeria mas eivai demeva. Kai dev evvow gia
va kavoume polemo, avti8etws, gia va prostateyoume tnv eirnvn kai va
exoume euxereia diplwmatikwv kivnsewv. 8umn8eite to rwmaiko rnto:
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
(Eav 8eleis eirnvn, proetoimaze polemo.)
Isws to epeisodeio twv Imiwv va apodeix8ei makropro8esma
wfelimo, eav apotelesei tnv aitia pou 8a mas kavei va 3upvnsoume
kai va sobareutoume. (Arkei va 8umn8oume oti liges meres priv ta
Imia, o Snmitns stis programmatikes dnlwseis proteive... perikopn
twv amuvtikwv dapavwv! Avagka omws kai 8eoi pei8ovtai.) Eidwmev.
>
> Me patriwtikous xairetismous
> Agamemnon Krokidas
>
Na 'sai kala
F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
Phidias Bourlas
Kostas wrote:
>
> Agaphte Feidia,
> Prwsopika den eimai uper ths symfiliwshs me tous Tourkous. Ahdiazw mono otan
> oi sumpatriwtes mas sumperifwrontai me apolitisto tropo. San Ellhnes prepei na
> eimaste panta ayogoi, kai oxi na katebainoume sto epipedo tous.
> Den xreiazetai na ginoume kolhtoi me tous Tourkous, alla oute xreiazetai na
> eimaste sunexeia sta maxairia. Hdh to exoun muristei oti plhsiazei o kairos
> pou 8a au3hsoume ta xwrika mas ydata, kai gi'auto prospa8oun na efeuroun
> kainourgia 8emata opws ta Imia, gia na to ka8usterhsoun oso ginetai; Oso gia
> tis parabiaseis,auto pou prospa8oun na petuxoun, einai na mas kanoun na
> skontapsoume (px na tous ri3oume ena aeroplano), gia na meiw8ei to kuros mas
> sthn EU. Dhladh diplwmatikh gkafa.
> O oikonomikos polemos pou tous kanoume einai h swsth politikh, kai gi'auto mas
> kaloun sunexeia se diapragmateuseis. Kai nai, na yposthrizoume thn patrida kai
> ta e8nika mas symferonta. De shmainei omws oti prepei na sumperiferomaste san
> barbaroi. Den mas timoun oi epi8eseis mas sthn koultoura tous, oute oi
> prwsopikes epi8eseis se memonomena atoma! Sumfwneis?
>
stis proswpikes sxeseis. Osov afora tnv e8vikn politikn, e3ngnsa
kapoia pragmata avalutika, se allo mnvuma pou esteila ws apavtnsn
stov mkrok...@aol.com, gia to idio subject.
Exw va pros8esw edw gia ta peri 8ermwv epeisodiwv oti bebaiws
kati tetoio pi8avov va apebaive eis baros mas. Eivai omws
aparaitnto gia tnv apotreptikn mas a3iopistia va 3erouv oloi
(va tous pei8oume dnladn kai me ta logia kai me tis pra3eis mas)
oti de 8a distasoume, eav apaiteitai gia tnv prostasia twv e8vikwv
mas sumferovtwv, va emplakoume se 8ermo epeisodio kai va to
kerdisoume.
Ta parapavw sxetizovtai kai me ta casus belli twv Tourkwv kai
ta 12 milia xwrikwv udatwv. Oi Tourkoi dev avagvwrizouv oute
ta 10 milia tou evaeriou xwrou mas, dev kavouv omws polemo.
Prospa8ouv me suvexeis parabiaseis va katargnsouv de facto ta
10 milia. Isws eav tous eixame frovtisei oi parabiaseis tous
va emperiexouv megalutero risko gi' autous (kai gia mas fusika)
va mnv ekavav toses parabiaseis.
Ev pasn periptwsei, to mexri pou' proxwrame eivai 8ema
suzntnsns, gia to opoio dev eimaste bebaiws oi armodioteroi.
Dev pauei omws pote va isxuei to oti n duvamn tns Tourkias
eivai pavw ap' ola n upoxwrntikotnta kai n aduvamia tns
Ellados. Kai e3akolou8ei episns va isxuei to rwmaiko rnto:
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
(Eav 8eleis eirnvn, proetoimaze polemo.)
dev ta agvoei ola auta kai kavei to ka8nkov tns.
Gia o,ti allo eixa va pw, des to allo mou mnvuma.
>
> Xairetismous,
> Kwstas
>
Xairetw,
F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
Robert Beer
In article <3295F4...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr>,
Phidias Bourlas <ph...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr> wrote:
> Omws ta parapavw eivai pavta ekfraseis agvns pistews se uynla
>idavika (eirnvn, dikaiosuvn, av8rwpismos, k.lp.) n' to avti8eto,
>ekdnlwseis atomismou, idioteleias, e8vikns kopwsns kai ekfulismou;
>Kourastnkame kai bare8nkame ti; Mnpws va uperaspizoume tnv patrida
>mas; Tnv opoia mas paredwsav oi epi xilieties akourasta agwvis8evtes
>progovoi mas; Mnpws viw8oume polu baru to fortio pou mas paredwsav
>kai, avti tns uposxesews twv vearwv Spartiatwv, tou "ames de g'
>esome8a pollw karoves", ekfrazoume tnv epi8umia va 3alafrwsoume;
Zoume se ena kosmo poly diaforetiko ap' o,ti gnorizan oi progwnoi mas.
Ap' o,ti gnorizan oi goneis mas akomh. Exoume twra thn dynatothta na
mazeuomaste edo se ena "newsgroup" kaina kanoume ameses syzhthseis me
ekprosopoys tou "ex8rou," kai etsi (elipzw) na tous gnorizoume ws
an8rwpous me idies anagkes pou moirazontai mia gh mazi mas. Auto parexei
poly perisswterh sigouria sthn patrida mas ws politiko wn, alla kai gia
ton ellhniko lao, opou kai na brisketai, dhladh sthn Kypro, h sthn
Tourkia. (Kai ws ellhnoamerikano mikrasiatikhs katagwghs, me endiaferi
kai mena.) Oi progonoi mas paleyan epi xilieties gia na yparxei mia xwra,
Ellada, sthn opoia an8rwpina dikaiwmata xorhgountai mono se Xristianous
Or8odo3ous pou miloun thn Ellhnikh glwssa, kai akolou8os, ekeinoi pou den
zoun entos twn shnorwn ths Elladas na zoun se ateleiwto fovo;
Sumfwnw oti exoume mia polytimh klhronomia kai prepei xwris allo na thn
prostateuome. Alla oi progonoi mas den eixan ena monon stoxo, eixan
pollous kata tous aiwnes, oi opoioi allazan me tis periptwseis. Oute o
Solwn oute o Konstantinos fantazan oti mia hmera 8a yphrxe mia e8nikh
politeia opws h shmerinh Ellada. Ston 19o aiwna egine anagkaio. Edw
teleiwnei omws; H politeia den einai telos, einai mallon ena meson pros
ena ypshlotero telos, na zoun oi Ellhnes se sigouria. Kai siga siga
ginetai olofanero oti oi laoi (oxi monon oi Ellhnes, alla kai oi Tourkia)
den exoun kerdisoun tipote apo enan akomh polemo, afou oi polemoi twra
mporoun na ekmhdenizoun laous oloklhrous.
Kaneis edw den ekane protash na dw8ei h Ellada stous Tourkous, oute na
papsoun na uperaspizoun thn Ellada. Alla se ena kosmo ston opoio oi
polemoi spaniws pia beltiwnoun tis zoes twn an8rwpwn, den to ofeiloume
stous progonous mas alla kai perisswtera stous mellontikous apogonous mas
na kanoume o,ti mporoume gia na tous afhsoume mia xwra eirhnikh kai oxi
ena katastrammeno skeleto mias xwras, opws h Servia h Vosnia? Den 8eloume
na payoume na uperaspizoume thn Ellada, alla na broume kalliterous tropous
na ths e3asfalizoume ena sta8ero mellon.
Bob
--
/========================================================================\
| Bob Beer \ "A troubled mind |
| bb...@u.washington.edu \ is a troublemaker." |
| http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bbeer \ - Edna St. Vincent Millay |
kr...@internetmci.com
In article <32971D...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr>, ph...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr
wrote:
> Kwsta, sumfwvw ev gevei se o,ti eipes gia ta peri sumperiforas
>stis proswpikes sxeseis. Osov afora tnv e8vikn politikn, e3ngnsa
>kapoia pragmata avalutika, se allo mnvuma pou esteila ws apavtnsn
>stov mkrok...@aol.com, gia to idio subject.
> Exw va pros8esw edw gia ta peri 8ermwv epeisodiwv oti bebaiws
>kati tetoio pi8avov va apebaive eis baros mas. Eivai omws
>aparaitnto gia tnv apotreptikn mas a3iopistia va 3erouv oloi
>(va tous pei8oume dnladn kai me ta logia kai me tis pra3eis mas)
>oti de 8a distasoume, eav apaiteitai gia tnv prostasia twv e8vikwv
>mas sumferovtwv, va emplakoume se 8ermo epeisodio kai va to
>kerdisoume.
Den exoume na fobh8oume tipota stratiwtika. O logos pou oi tourkoi synexizoun
tis parabiaseis einai to oti kanenas apo tous "megalous" de dinei shmasia. An
xreiastei na apanthsoume, exoume ka8e dunatothta. Prwsopika omws pisteuw oti
mplofaroun, kai prospa8oun na mas pagideusoun diplwmatika. Ws twra to exoume
xeiristei teleia. So katw katw mas prosferoun thn eukairia gia askhsh.
Kalutera se epifulakh para se upno. Den anagnwrizoun ta 10 milia enaeriou
epeidh den exoume aukshsei ta udata kai brikoun kapoio prosxhma, estw kai
ftwxo.
Auto pou proteines peri Imbrou einai endiaferon. 8a mporousame kai meis na
arxisoume tetoia politikh wste na tous stelnoume sto die8nes dikasthrio klp.
Omws me tous Eurwpaious exoume pai3ei panta to xarti "barbaros tourkos" me
apotelesmatikothta. An allaksoume politikh apenanti tous, 8a prepei na ginei
me8odika kai oxi spasmwdika.
[...]
> Ev pasn periptwsei, to mexri pou' proxwrame eivai 8ema
>suzntnsns, gia to opoio dev eimaste bebaiws oi armodioteroi.
>Dev pauei omws pote va isxuei to oti n duvamn tns Tourkias
>eivai pavw ap' ola n upoxwrntikotnta kai n aduvamia tns
>Ellados. Kai e3akolou8ei episns va isxuei to rwmaiko rnto:
Einai alh8eia oti deixnoume kapoio fobo pou den ton katalabainw. Isws autoi
pou einai oi armodioi den 8eloun na einai oi upeu8unoi na steiloun ta paidia
mas se polemo. Stratiwtika pantws eimaste polu pio isxuroi ap' oso eimastan
kata thn apeleu8erwsh.
Oso gia tous Tourkous, kanoun polles gkafes kai tis plhrwnoun. Den einai kai
toso a3ioi sth diplomatia.
H antepi8esh prepei na einai diplwmatikh. Einai klassikh periptwsh ikanothtas
diapragmateushs.
> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
> (Eav 8eleis eirnvn, proetoimaze polemo.)
Th 8umamai th ekfrash afou eprepe na thn epanalabw se ola ta "strabadia".
Den pisteuw na einai toso dramatiko. Emeis frontizoume gia ta sumferonta mas
kai keinoi gia ta dika tous: 75% Ellhniko Aigaio me thn Smyrni apomwnomenh den
tous symferei, enw emas mas sumferei polu.
Sto Aigaio to xasan to paixnidi, kai 8a fanei se ligo. Sthn Kupro ta pragmata
einai polu xeirotera, kai prepei na to fernoume oso mporoume sthn
epikairothta. Ekei xreiazontai megaluterh piesh. Apo ouza 8a kanoume oti
mporoume gi'auto.
Xairetismous,
Kwstas
K.Tsembelis
Kala ala auta pou lete, alla distihos prepei na katalavoume ena pragma:
Ektos tou oti eimaste teleios monoi mas, kanenas den mas goustarei.
Eimai stin Agglia pano apo 6 hronia kai eho katalavei ti eshanode,
toulahiston oi Aggloi gia mas. Oloi nomizoun oti emeis eimaste oi
nationalists kai aftoi pou ta theloun ola. Oi 'kakomoiroi' oi Tourkoi
ehoun polla alla provloimata kai den asholoude me emas. Distihos, h
Tourkikh politikh ehei apodeihthei pollh kaliterh apo tin dikh mas.
Afto pou hreiazetai, den einai megala logia, alla mia statherh eksoteriki
politikh apo tin akastote kivernhsh kai mia dhnath oikonomia, gia na
stamatisoume pleon na eimaste oi zitoules ths EOK opou shedon oloi mas
ehoun tou klotsou kai tou batsou.
Mr K. TSEMBELIS, B.Sc.(Hons),GradInsP TEL:+44(0)1227 764000 ext 7769
Unit for Space Sciences and Astrophysics, FAX:+44(0)1227 762616
University of Kent at Canterbury,
Kent CT2 7NR, U.K.
George Tsakalos
"K.Tsembelis" <kt...@ukc.ac.uk> writes:
re file,den mas paratas me to ti lene oi aggloi gia mas...ti na mas poune tora
ta proin agriogourouna?....to koblex ton eyropaion einai gnosto me toys ellines
(ektos fisika ton morfomenon)...ti na mas poune tora....kala pou exoun kai
ta ellinika marmara sta bromo-mouseia toys oi psoriarides giati allios tha itan
adeia....na valoun tourkika mnimeia(???)-den yparxoun alla leme...astous toys brettanous na gamiountai..oi morfomenoi ana tin yfilio xeroun ti esti Ellas kai
ti tourkia..oi ypoloipoi as pane na doun ligo TV (kana ebraiopoulo Larry King)
na xazepsoun..
George
Philip Santas
In article <580s40$t...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
George Tsakalos <el9...@central.ntua.gr> wrote:
>
>[...] to koblex ton eyropaion einai gnosto me toys ellines
>(ektos fisika ton morfomenon)...ti na mas poune tora....kala pou exoun kai
>ta ellinika marmara sta bromo-mouseia toys oi psoriarides giati allios tha itan
>adeia....
Malista, apopsh veoellnva pou 6ev exei episkeftei pote eurwpa"ika mvhmeia,
palatia, kastra, ekklhsies kai mouseia...
Filippos
Theodore Vlachos
Philip Santas (san...@inf.ethz.ch) wrote:
: In article <580s40$t...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
: Filippos
Ti 8a htan to Uffizzi xwris ellhnika marmara ? Adeio. :)
(Polu fobamai oti auth einai apopsh neoellhna pou den exei episkeftei
kanena mouseio genikws - entos h' ektos ths epikrateias)
8odwros
mkrok...@aol.com
Xwris na paragnorizw ta "Europaika (Agglika) Kastra" pou anoikoun stous
galazoaimatous kai thn basiliki oikogenoia, Thelw na moupeis giati den mas
gyrizoun ta klemmena marmara?? Auto einai to mhnhma twv logwn tou
prohgoumenou filloy!!
Xairetw
Mike K.
Philip Santas
In article <19961205085...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Kat'arxhv, Eurwph 6ev eivai movo n Agglia. Eivai kai n Gallia,
n Germavia, n Tsexia, n Rwsia, n Ispavia, klp.
Epeita, n Agglia 6ev exei movo kastra, exei kai ekklhsies, kai
arxaia pavepisthmia, klp.
Twra, ama rwtas gia ta Elgiveia, sumfwvw oti 8a prepei va epistrafouv
stnv Ella6a.
Omws ta Elgiveia 6ev eivai auta pou gemizouv ta agglika mouseia
kastra, ekklhsies, pavepisthimia, klp.
(giati oi logoi tou prohgoumenou filloy sou legave oti
8a htav a6eia ola auta eav 6ev uphrxav ta Elgiveia!)
Oute eivai klemmeva, agorasmeva se xamhlh timh htav. Kai fusika
twra kostizouv.
Kai kati allo: stnv E8vikh Pivako8hkh exoume erga 3evwv zwgrafwv.
Auto ti shmaivei? Oti ta mouseia mas 8a htav a6eia?
Epishs sto Megaro Mousikhs paizouv kuriws 3eves operes kai sumfwvies.
Auto pali ti sou leei? Oti 6ev exoume mousikh?
Auta va peis tou fillou sou :-)
Filippos
Philip Santas
M.K.
>
> Twra, ama rwtas gia ta Elgiveia, sumfwvw oti 8a prepei va epistrafouv
> stnv Ella6a.
> Omws ta Elgiveia 6ev eivai auta pou gemizouv ta agglika mouseia
> kastra, ekklhsies, pavepisthimia, klp.
> (giati oi logoi tou prohgoumenou filloy sou legave oti
> 8a htav a6eia ola auta eav 6ev uphrxav ta Elgiveia!)
>
> Oute eivai klemmeva, agorasmeva se xamhlh timh htav. Kai fusika
> twra kostizouv.
>
> Kai kati allo: stnv E8vikh Pivako8hkh exoume erga 3evwv zwgrafwv.
> Auto ti shmaivei? Oti ta mouseia mas 8a htav a6eia?
kamia sxesi.. exoyme polloys kaloy ellines zografoys.
mporoyme na baloyme apo erga toy theotokopoyloy,toy theofiloy,toy
toy mytara eos agiografies toy byzantioy kai toixografies tis arxaias
ellhnikhs epoxhs.
> Epishs sto Megaro Mousikhs paizouv kuriws 3eves operes kai sumfwvies.
> Auto pali ti sou leei? Oti 6ev exoume mousikh?
Katarxhn h opera einai mia prospatheia ths dyshs na antigrapsei thn
arxaia ellhnikh tragodia. Thn epoxh omos poy anaptyxthike eimastan
sklaboi ton Toyrkon kai ysteroyme se ayto ton tomea.Ostoso exoyme tin
an oxi kalyteri toylaxiston eksisoy kali byzantini moysiki kathos kai
tin arxaia ellhnikh moysikh alla kai shmantikoys sygxronoys synthetes
(Theodorakis,Xatzidakis,Ntalaras klp).
>
> Auta va peis tou fillou sou :-)
>
> Filippos
Alexandros
--
Go to the sites that reveal the Turkish Barbaric Crimes
http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/index.e.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/agamemnon/Violate.htm
http://www.hellasweb.com/commun/NAISSUES/TURKS/turkgifs.htm
http://www.hellasweb.com/commun/NAISSUES/TURKS/TURKS.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/agamemnon/humanrig.HTM
http://www.amnesty.org
Alejandros Diamandidis
> <mkrok...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Xwris na paragnorizw ta "Europaika (Agglika) Kastra" pou anoikoun stous
>>galazoaimatous kai thn basiliki oikogenoia, Thelw na moupeis giati den mas
>>gyrizoun ta klemmena marmara?? Auto einai to mhnhma twv logwn tou
Alhtheia, giati ta leme synexeia "marmara"; Akoma kai se jenes anafores,
se egkyklopaideies klp ta lene "marbles". Moy fainetai teleiws xazo...
Marmara einai ayta poy bgainoyn apo ta latomeia kai kanoyme marmaroplakes
kai strwnoyme ta patwmata. Pio kala de tha htan na ta leme glypta;
(Ektos ki an den einai glypta alla apla kommatia marmaro. Alla de nomizw)
Mallon kollhse apo to "Ta elgineia marmara", alla epeidh de sympathoyme
kai poly ton Elgin kopsame to "elgineia" kai emeine to "marmara".
De symfvneite;
Filika, Alejandros
--
Alejandros Diamandidis * ad...@egnatia.ee.auth.gr
\@ http://egnatia.ee.auth.gr/~adia/index.html @/
George Tsakalos
ad...@egnatia.ee.auth.gr (Alejandros Diamandidis) writes:
>De symfvneite;
>Filika, Alejandros
entaxei re file,glipta apo marmaro...ayto ennooyme...
Philip Santas
In article <58gu2o$4...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
George Tsakalos <el9...@central.ntua.gr> wrote:
>san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>>George Tsakalos <el9...@central.ntua.gr> wrote:
>>>
>>>[...] to koblex ton eyropaion einai gnosto me toys ellines
>>>(ektos fisika ton morfomenon)...ti na mas poune tora....kala pou exoun kai
>>>ta ellinika marmara sta bromo-mouseia toys oi psoriarides giati allios tha itan
>>>adeia....
>
>>Malista, apopsh veoellnva pou 6ev exei episkeftei pote eurwpa"ika mvhmeia,
>>palatia, kastra, ekklhsies kai mouseia...
>
>pos oi barbaroi eyropaioi leilatisan tin Poli to 1204...ante,giati i paramoni
>sas sto exoteriko sas exei palabosei....
Auta poios ta leei? Autos pou eivai akoma mesa? :-)
Koita va 6eis pou paei va mas bgei kai apo pavw!
BTW, lehlasia to 1204 egive, to 3eroume, gia veo mas to les?
H mhpws evvoeis oti phrav ta "marmara" to 1204, kai emeis 6ev
to phrame xampari? Giati ama evvoeis auto, pefteis e3w:
ti va tis kavouv tis petres? Xrusafia kai petra6ia 8elave va
balouv sto salovi tous kai stis prosopseis tous, oxi ...metewrites.
Kai kammia parfumarismevh guvaika, giati eixave ph3ei me autes
pou murizav skor6o kai laxavo sto spiti tous.
:-)
>se ligo tha mas poune oti o kapitalismos einai politismos!..
Aaaaa, e6w xtupises 6iava.
Gia pes mas tis apopseis sou peri politismou! Kai frovtise va mhv
afhseis tnv arxaia A8hva ap'e3w, giati fi6i pou s'efage!
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <32A8C7...@ath.forthnet.gr>, M.K. <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>
>> Epishs sto Megaro Mousikhs paizouv kuriws 3eves operes kai sumfwvies.
>> Auto pali ti sou leei? Oti 6ev exoume mousikh?
>
> Katarxhn h opera einai mia prospatheia ths dyshs na antigrapsei thn
> arxaia ellhnikh tragodia. Thn epoxh omos poy anaptyxthike eimastan
> sklaboi ton Toyrkon kai ysteroyme se ayto ton tomea.Ostoso exoyme tin
> an oxi kalyteri toylaxiston eksisoy kali byzantini moysiki kathos kai
> tin arxaia ellhnikh moysikh alla kai shmantikoys sygxronoys synthetes
> (Theodorakis,Xatzidakis,Ntalaras klp).
E, twra ti va pw? Mou sugkriveis tous amave6es twv papa6wv me tnv
sumfwvia twv psalmwv tou Stravinsky kai tnv Gloria tou Poulenc?
H to vtabavtouri twv kovsertwv tou Theo6wrakh me ta kovserta
tou List kai tis sumfwvies tou Mahler? H ta kommatia tou Ntalara
me ta asmata tou Shankar? (gia va pame kai se oriental mousikh
--apo Iv6ia)
Gia va sobareutoume ligo.
Ektos bebaia kai av milas gia tragou6opoious, alla 6ev vomizw va
uparxei koultoura (ellnvikh, italikh, kivezikh, pakistavikh, name it)
pou va mhv exei tous 6ikous tns kalous suv8etes se autov tov tomea.
Filippos
Philip Santas
>> Auto ti shmaivei? Oti ta mouseia mas 8a htav a6eia?
>
> kamia sxesi.. exoyme polloys kaloy ellines zografoys.
> mporoyme na baloyme apo erga toy theotokopoyloy,toy theofiloy,toy
> toy mytara eos agiografies toy byzantioy kai toixografies tis arxaias
> ellhnikhs epoxhs.
Ti kammia sxesh? Dnl oi 3evoi 6ev exouv gluptes va balouv sta mouseia tous?
Gia trexa kata Flwrevtia meria, kai 3ekiva va 8aumazeis apo kei. Meta
suvexise kai stnv epomevh Eurwph.
Kai n arxaia Ella6a exei glupta, alla kai n Eurwph tns Avagevvhshs kai tou
Mparok epishs, kai malista se ba8mo koresmou.
Twra ama merikoi 6ev a3iw8hkav va ta 8aumasouv kai leve arloumpes gia
"6ika mou" kai "6ika sou", e, autoi xavouv, kaveis allos. Les kai 8a
parouv pososta apo tnv agorapwlhsia kapoiou agalmatos.
Filippos
mkrok...@aol.com
Pros theou Filipe,
Pws mporeis na sygrineis erga texnns me diafora 2000 xronwn??
Snmeia:
1. Oloi oi megaloi artistes tou mesaiwna empneustikan kai apo tnv arxai
elinikn texnh!
2. Se pia katastasn texvns ntan n Europn to 500 A.C.?? Anipartn.
3. An kai se polla mern ths gns anthisan texnes (aigyptos, Mexiko, Kina
klp)
n arxaia ellinikh ntan to pio plnres synolo anapthjns, Logos, Lyrika (oi
eglezoi lene Lyrics), Theatro, politikn, philosofia, dhmhgoria, glyptikn
klp. klp.
4. Xwris na miwnw katholou tnv Oumanistikh (prosexe den leo Anthropivn)
aksia ths Europaikns texnhs tou mesaiwna (pou mou aresei idiaitera) den
mporw na tnv ballw sto idio epipedo me thn arxaia Elinikh, giati n'
deuterh exei mia syglonistikh-katalitikh epidrash sthn anthropotita. Mnv
3exnas oti mporei to Mparoc na exei mia idiaiterei finetsa, alla den
mporese na Empveusei "Olympiakous Agwnes"
5. Blepeis n diafora einai oti enw oi arxaioi Ellines Ekanan texvn gia thn
ikanopoinsn tns efrasis tous, oi melontikoi Europaioi prospathousav va
ikanopoinsoun tnv ekfrasis tous-kanontas texvn pou tha ikanopoiouse kapoio
douka!
Prepei oloi na eimaste xaroumenoi gia thn katagwgh mas. Kai n arxaia
eliniki texvn einai h katagwgn mas!!
Thermous xairetismous!
Mike K.
mkrok...@aol.com
Oson afora tnv mousikn twra.
Einai pali mia ekfrash ths koinwnikis syneidhsis wpos kai opia alln texvn.
Symfwnhs??
Mporei esena prosopika na mnv sou aresei o theodorakis, alla n melopoinsn
twn stoixwn tou Elith ntan n dynamikn plnroforisn twn Soundwn, pou
argotera edose to brabeio Nobel ston Elyth.
Pali tha kanw mia sygrisi:
Enw o Theodorkis mellopoiouse gia na ekfrasei tnv agwvia tou gia mia
koivwvikn adikia, o List mellopoiouse gia na efxaristisn ta autia kapoiou
n kapoiwn Eugevwv.
Mnv nomizeis omws oti paragnwrizw tnv mousikn axia tou List.
Kai se parakalw, xwris na kanw thriskeutikn avtipoliteusi, n byzavtivn
mousikh oxi mono einai o logos pou genithike n opera, alla exei kai
symantikh mousikh axia, xwris bebaia va lew oti mou aresei yperbolika na
akouw byzantinh mousikh.
Den exei KAMIA SXESI me amanedes!!!
Telika thelw na pw oti kathe texvn einai avtiprwsopos mias epoxns. Kai
mporoume na pesoume se megala lathn av sygrinoume texves apo diafores
epoxes basizomevoi se prosopika kritiria goustou n areskeias.
Se euxaristw gia thv eukairia va ekfrasw tnv apopsi mou.
Mike K.
Philip Santas
In article <19961210100...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Ekava egw tetoia sugkrish pou8eva? Pou?
Gia 6es kai argotera va 6eis poios kavei sugkriseis tetoies.
Lew: kai oi arxaioi eixav agalmata, kai oi eurwpaioi tns avagevvhshs
eixav agalmata, kai tou mparok, kai paei legovtas.
Apo marmara va fav' kai oi kotes (alla 6ev ta trwve!)
> Snmeia:
>1. Oloi oi megaloi artistes tou mesaiwna empneustikan kai apo tnv arxai
>elinikn texnh!
Se megalo ba8mo alh8eia.
>2. Se pia katastasn texvns ntan n Europn to 500 A.C.?? Anipartn.
Evvoeis se poia katastash htav n texvh stnv Eurwph tote. Isws prwtogovh
kai arketa xazoxaroumevh (movterva Ella6a mou 8umizei auto!)
>3. An kai se polla mern ths gns anthisan texnes (aigyptos, Mexiko, Kina
>klp)
>n arxaia ellinikh ntan to pio plnres synolo anapthjns, Logos, Lyrika (oi
>eglezoi lene Lyrics), Theatro, politikn, philosofia, dhmhgoria, glyptikn
>klp. klp.
Aaaaa, e6w pefteis polu e3w. Sthv Iv6ia kai stnv Kiva oi texves kai
ta grammata htav se i6iaiterh akmh. Kai 8eatro eixav, kai filosofia
eixav (3exvas tov bou6ismo? milame gia filosofia pou avtexei kai stov
xrovo), kai arxitektovikh eixav, kai glupta eixav. Epei6h ta pai6akia
stnv Ella6a 6ev ta ma8aivouv sto sxoleio, 6ev shmaivei oti ekei
6ev eixav texves kai grammata.
Xwria 6nl pou sugkriveis erga texvhs apo 6iaforetika hmisfairia tou plavhth.
>4. Xwris na miwnw katholou tnv Oumanistikh (prosexe den leo Anthropivn)
>aksia ths Europaikns texnhs tou mesaiwna (pou mou aresei idiaitera) den
>mporw na tnv ballw sto idio epipedo me thn arxaia Elinikh, giati n'
>deuterh exei mia syglonistikh-katalitikh epidrash sthn anthropotita. Mnv
>3exnas oti mporei to Mparoc na exei mia idiaiterei finetsa, alla den
>mporese na Empveusei "Olympiakous Agwnes"
H avagevvhsh evepveuse omws olo to e3ereuvhtiko pveuma, pou eixe pe8avei
sto Byzavtio.
Kai pali kaveis sugkriseis ergwv me 6iafora 2,000 etwv.
>5. Blepeis n diafora einai oti enw oi arxaioi Ellines Ekanan texvn gia thn
>ikanopoinsn tns efrasis tous, oi melontikoi Europaioi prospathousav va
>ikanopoinsoun tnv ekfrasis tous-kanontas texvn pou tha ikanopoiouse kapoio
>douka!
Kai pali pefteis e3w. O Fei6ias (o arxaios, oxi o foithths tou EMP)
plhrwvotav kai ekave ta agalmata tou --ase 6nl pou ebaze kai tnv
upografh tou pavw se ka8e Dia kai A8hva pou eftiaxve.
E, ta i6ia ekavav kai oi Italoi stnv Avagevvhsh.
>Prepei oloi na eimaste xaroumenoi gia thn katagwgh mas. Kai n arxaia
>eliniki texvn einai h katagwgn mas!!
Nai bebaia, galazoaimath!
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <19961210101...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<mkrok...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Telika thelw na pw oti kathe texvn einai avtiprwsopos mias epoxns. Kai
>mporoume na pesoume se megala lathn av sygrinoume texves apo diafores
>epoxes basizomevoi se prosopika kritiria goustou n areskeias.
Milwvtas gia megala la8h, ta la8h ta kavouv autoi pou exouv kavei
karamela tnv ekfrash "oi arxaioi ta kavave ola, oi koutofragkoi zousav
se sphlies", giati
1) h epoxh twv arxaiwv exei perasei avepistrepti
2) oi koutofragkoi ma8ave apo autous kai e3elix8hkav toso autoi oso
kai h texvh, se avti8esh me kapoious allous pou olo pipilizouv
ta i6ia kai ta i6ia
Allwste Ellnvas eivai autos pou exei ellnvikh pai6eia, kai mallov oi
"koutofragkoi" exouv perissoterh ellnvikh pai6eia kai wrimothta.
Filippos
M.K.
Philip Santas wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SV4.3.95.961210151730.17136A-100000@swan>,
> K.Tsembelis <kt...@ukc.ac.uk> wrote:
> >[...] Afto den simainei oti i
> >klasikh mousikh den einai kalh. Tounantion tha elega. Den ehoume omos to
> >dikaioma na ksehname tin koultoura mas. Apla ehoume paramelisei polla
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >pragmata kai kirios tin mousikh mas. Distihos h neoellhnikh mousikh
> >apoteleitai apo tsiftetelia kai tourkikous amanedes ( ohi ton papason
> >pados). Pados to gegonos oti oi psalmoi pou akoume stin ekklisia ehoun
> >kapoia koina stihia me tous amanedes ton tourkon mallon simainei oti akoma
> >kai oi Othomanoi epireastikan apo tin Byzantinh mousikh.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> To avti8eto.
> O soultavos mallov epeballe tis protimhseis tou sto repertorio tns
> or8o6o3hs ekklhsias, se baros tns oopias6hpote byzavtivhs mousikhs
> etsi wste auth va 3exastei plhrws apo tnv o8wmavikh epikrateia.
> Auto leme.
Katarxin oi Othomanoi den eixan moysikh alla einai kathara
Arabikh.Synepos prepei na milame gia Arabikh moysikh kai oxi
Toykikh.Deyteron oi Arabes ephreasthkan entonos apo thn
arxaia ellhnikh moysikh kai thn byzantinh moysikh.Aksizei na shmeiothei
oti polla moysika organa ths arxaiothtas mas paramenoun akoma agnosta.
Akoma to mpoyzoyki px an den kano lathos proerxetai apo mia antallagi
arxaioy ellhnikoy/byzantinoy organoy to opoio to phran oi arabes kai
ystera apo diergasies mas to edosan stin torini toy pali morfi se
emas.Synepos exoyme mia amfidromi sxesi me tin arabikh moysikh.
Epiprostheta,einai gnosto to kallos tis arxaias ellhnikhs moysikhs
to opoio ostoso paramenei sto eyri koino akoma agnosto.Pragmatika
emena moy aresei poly i arxaia ellhnikh moysikh kai thn theoro idiaitera
eksairetiki isaksia an oxi anoteri apo thn klassikh moysikh.
Telos yparxoyn mono dyo eidh apeikonishs ths moysikhs se fthoggoys
to gnosto systima poy xrhsimopoioyme simera kai to allo mono to
byzantino
/arxaioellhniko systima.Malista to arxaioellhniko safos einai anotero
apo ayto poy xrhsimopoioyme simera kathos periexei poly perissoteres
notes metaksy toy kathe fthoggoy.
Ayta apo enan ligo asxeto sta themata ths moysikhs.
Philip Santas
>twn stoixwn tou Elith ntan n dynamikn plnroforisn twn Soundwn, pou
>argotera edose to brabeio Nobel ston Elyth.
Dev eipa oti 6ev mou aresei. Eipa oti 6ev eivai mousikh autn n fasaria
pou paragei me ola ta klapatsimpava va paizouv stn 6iapaswv tous pleov
tetrimmevous ru8mous kai armovies. Kai 6ev mporeis va tnv sugkriveis
oute me tnv texvh, oute me tnv 6e3iotexveia, oute me tnv armovia,
outeme tov ru8mo, oute me tnv para6osiakothta oute kav me to tamperamevto
tns mousikhs allwv, px tou List.
Ama milas gia politiko muvhma, se plhroforw epishs, oti mesw tou
List n ouggrikh koultoura 6iaiwvis8hke, beltiw8hke kai epirrease
alles koultoures argotera --omws o 8eo6wrakhs 6ev blepw va epirrease
allous suv8etes stnv Ella6a h sto e3wteriko.
(tov List tov exoume gia para6eigma, etsi? 8a mporousa va sou pw
kai allous).
Epishs meiwveis polu tov Eluth. Para polu. Dnl. logw twv tragou6iwv
tou 8eo6wrakh phre to brabeio o Eluths? Pera apo aplows stixourgos, 6ev
a3izouv ta poihmata tou? Na mhv leme oti 8eloume, etsi?
>Enw o Theodorkis mellopoiouse gia na ekfrasei tnv agwvia tou gia mia
>koivwvikn adikia, o List mellopoiouse gia na efxaristisn ta autia kapoiou
>n kapoiwn Eugevwv.
Evw o Eluths poia koivwvikh a6ikia e3efrase?
O 8eo6wrakhs vomizw egrapse perissotero istoria, para mousikh. Omws
milame gia texvh e6w, kai oxi gia tov Kolokotrwvh.
Filippos
George Tsakalos
san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>In article <32A8C7...@ath.forthnet.gr>, M.K. <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>>
>Filippos
Kala,edo to parakeneis megale....gia pes mou:exei idea apo byzantini mousiki kai tolmas na tin apokaleis mousiki ton papadon???...pragmaika,ayto pou eipes einai megali malakia....gia pes mou re: ti mousiki eixan oi eyropaioi to 1000 px?..
ti eixan paliotera akomi?...gia pes ?....kai pos mathane mousiki?..ouranokatebata?..mipos toys didaxane kapoioi...papades?...kai na mi leme polla se asxetous (kai ego asxetos emai apo byzantini mousiki alla toulaxiston den krino) trexa na diabaseis ti leei o Beethoven,i megaliteri dianoia tis eyropaikis mousikis gia tin mousiki ton...papadon...
ma ti malakies akoume....
K.Tsembelis
Den mou les re file, eheis vgei pote apo tin Ellada? Nomizeis oti oi monoi
pou eihan politismo stin Europh hran mono oi Ellhnes? Kai an o
kapitalismos den einai politismos, mipos einai o koumounismos tou Stalin
kai tou Lenin?
> File,politismos den eimai mono ayta pou les...trexa na diavaseis se kana biblio
> pos oi barbaroi eyropaioi leilatisan tin Poli to 1204...ante,giati i paramoni
>
> George
Philip Santas
In article <Pine.SV4.3.95.961210151730.17136A-100000@swan>,
K.Tsembelis <kt...@ukc.ac.uk> wrote:
>[...] Afto den simainei oti i
>klasikh mousikh den einai kalh. Tounantion tha elega. Den ehoume omos to
>dikaioma na ksehname tin koultoura mas. Apla ehoume paramelisei polla
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>pragmata kai kirios tin mousikh mas. Distihos h neoellhnikh mousikh
>apoteleitai apo tsiftetelia kai tourkikous amanedes ( ohi ton papason
>pados). Pados to gegonos oti oi psalmoi pou akoume stin ekklisia ehoun
>kapoia koina stihia me tous amanedes ton tourkon mallon simainei oti akoma
>kai oi Othomanoi epireastikan apo tin Byzantinh mousikh.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To avti8eto.
O soultavos mallov epeballe tis protimhseis tou sto repertorio tns
or8o6o3hs ekklhsias, se baros tns oopias6hpote byzavtivhs mousikhs
etsi wste auth va 3exastei plhrws apo tnv o8wmavikh epikrateia.
Auto leme.
Sumfwvoi oti n byzavtivh mousikh prepei va epirrease tn 6utikh mousikh.
3ekivwvtas omws apo auto mporoume va 6oume pws peripou emoiaze
n byzavtivh mousikh. Kamia sxesh me tous amave6es.
Oxi pws eimai evavtiov twv amave6wv (h twv Pappoua, h twv Iv6iavwv
tou Amazoviou), alla oxi kai va leme oti oi amave6es eivai
ellnvikh koultoura.
>Kai epeidh fenetai na sou aresei poli h klasikh mousikh (Stravisky,
>Poulenc etc) pistevo oti den tha diafoniseis pliros me afta pou leo.
Pou va 6eis kai kati guftika klariva kai biolia pou akouw! Ta bazw
sto grafeio kai trellevovtai oloi oi suva6elfoi :-)
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <32AE59...@ath.forthnet.gr>, M.K. <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>Katarxin oi Othomanoi den eixan moysikh alla einai kathara
>Arabikh.Synepos prepei na milame gia Arabikh moysikh kai oxi
>Toykikh.
Ma 6ev eipe kaveis oti oi O8wmavoi eixav tourkikh mousikh, pavtws
8a uphrxe kati tetoio, esu giati to apokleieis? Amousoi htav?
Twra, eav oloklhrh n O8wmavikh Autokratoria eixe arabikh mousikh,
auto 6ev to 3erw, alla mallov 8a to prospa8hsav.
>Deyteron oi Arabes ephreasthkan entonos apo thn
>arxaia ellhnikh moysikh kai thn byzantinh moysikh.
A, wraio auto! Evtovws malista! Me tnv Iv6ia stnv 6ipla porta
kai olh tn mousikh tns koultoura, kai tous "autox8oves"
politismous pou hkmasav stnv perioxh, apo tous Ellnves epireasthkav
evtovws! Wra eivai va poume oti kai o Daui6 epselve me ellnvikous
skopous! Pou ta brhkes auta?
>Aksizei na shmeiothei
>oti polla moysika organa ths arxaiothtas mas paramenoun akoma agnosta.
>Akoma to mpoyzoyki px an den kano lathos proerxetai apo mia antallagi
>arxaioy ellhnikoy/byzantinoy organoy to opoio to phran oi arabes kai
>ystera apo diergasies mas to edosan stin torini toy pali morfi se
>emas.
Am to mpaglama6aki? 3exases to mpaglama6aki!
Megalwse o mpaglamas, k'egive sav bapori!
Ti sou leei auto?
>Synepos exoyme mia amfidromi sxesi me tin arabikh moysikh.
>Epiprostheta,einai gnosto to kallos tis arxaias ellhnikhs moysikhs
>to opoio ostoso paramenei sto eyri koino akoma agnosto.
Gia pes kava titlo CD me arxaia ellnvikh mousikh bre palikari.
Kata protimhsh ta soundtracks tou Sofoklh eav sou briskovtai
proxeira. Alla kai oti allo breis!
Ti allo 8'akousoume!
Filippos
Ari Papasakellariou
In article <58h7q5$j...@ru7.inf.ethz.ch>,
Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>In article <58gu2o$4...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>,
>George Tsakalos <el9...@central.ntua.gr> wrote:
>>File,politismos den eimai mono ayta pou les...
>>trexa na diavaseis se kana biblio pos
>>oi barbaroi eyropaioi leilatisan tin Poli to 1204...ante,giati i paramoni
>>sas sto exoteriko sas exei palabosei....
>
>Auta poios ta leei? Autos pou eivai akoma mesa? :-)
>Koita va 6eis pou paei va mas bgei kai apo pavw!
Ena apo ta megalytera problhmata sthn Ellada einai h hmima8eia kai
o autokompasmos gia na ais8anomaste kalytera.
Oso gia tous Eurwpaious, dystyxws den eimaste se 8esh na tous
krinoume th stigmh malista pou exoun ri3ei tou kosmou to ECU sthn
Ellada kai oi "politismenoi" egxwrioi aeritzhdes ekanan oti mporoun
na thn xantakwsoun. To paradeigma ths Portogalias, ths Irlandias
kai ths Ispanias mila apo mono tou.
Kai pou'sai tsakali tsakale, to pososto "barbarwn" Eurwpaiwn pou
exw gnwrisei eixe poly perissotera apo ta xarakthristika tou
"politismenou" (gnwseis, tropous, symperifora, eugeneia, ktl.)
apo tous antistoixous omoe8neis mou.
Ellhnikos politismos 2000: Karakitsario sthn thleorash,
kai meta skyladiko me ta "Ellhnika" tsiftetelia kai ta ba8ytata
asmata tou Pantazh h' tou antistoixou skyla.
Kai aeritzhdes kai "egw na eimai kala kai h Ellada as boulia3ei". O3w re!
Auta, giati h lista mporei na ginei para poly megalh.
>>se ligo tha mas poune oti o kapitalismos einai politismos!..
H autoktonia ths Elladas sthn 10etia tou '80 htan kalyterh !!!
Kai apo "politismo", allo tipota! Paradeigma pros mimhsh!
Anoi3te ta straba sas ekei re stournaria kai koita3te na
boh8hsete thn kybernhsh na petyxei tous stoxous ths.
Alliws, eimaste a3ioi ths moiras pou h apotyxia mas epifyllasei.
mkrok...@aol.com
Filipe yeia sou,
As ejetasoume ta pragmata alli mia fora.
H thesi mou einai oti n arxaia elliniki Koultoura epeidh egine katw apw
synthikes politismikns kai koinwnikns ejarsis einai katalitikh. Dnladn
epeiriazei tromaktika olous tous metagenesterous politismous.
Egw eipa oti kai alla ethnoi eixan politismikn akmh, kai den upotimnsa tnv
prosfora tous. Eipa wmos oti o Ellinikos politismos tns arxaiotntos eixe
tosn bartita pou olloi oi laoi tns Europns theloun na lene oti kati tous
syndeei me auton.
Pes mou esy se poia boudistikn protasn eides to "Ta panda rei!" n' thn
atomikn (ellinikn lejh pou symaivn den kovetai allo) theoria klp klp.
Eimai sygouros oti ta Jereis ola auta.
Telika thelw na pw oti n Ellinikn philosophia EDWSE tns Baseis tns
synxrovns Europaikns Skejns pou esy thaumazeis!!
Pisteuw oti xwris tous arxaious Ellines n Europiakh koultoura den tha
nkmaze me to tropo auto giati DEN THA EIXE RIZES.
Pantws thelw na soupw oti san koultoura genika n Ellinikh(milw gia tnv
syvxrovn twra) einai polln dynamikh, avexarthta apo tis ateleis pou exei
- kai den einai liges. Tera eggeitai se mena kai sena anti nva
upovivazoume tnv Elliniki koultoura na prospathoume na tnv
kalitereusoume!!
Exw ena biblio grammeno apo ton Laurendio Gemmerey, Austriakos
Rwmaiokatholikos iereas pou upnrje dieuthindns tou "Diethvous Politistikou
Kentrou ths Austrias"..sta Ellinika einai Ekdoseis Papaznsn. o titlos tou
einai: " H Dysn tns Dysns - n apomoithopoinsn tns Eurwpns kai o
Ellnvnsmos"
Ean mporouses va to diabazes thea euriskes polla xrnsima pragmata metajn
Ellinismou kai Eurwphs.
Tha synexisoume kammia alln fora.
Mike K
Mario Ioannidis
Philip Santas wrote:
> Oxi pws eimai evavtiov twv amave6wv (h twv Pappoua, h twv Iv6iavwv
> tou Amazoviou), alla oxi kai va leme oti oi amave6es eivai
> ellnvikh koultoura. ^^^^^
Einai h htan? An kapote (?!) aporrofh0ei/uio0eth0ei to tsifteteli (p.x.)
se tetoio ba0mo apo thn ellhnikh koinwnia wste ka0e Ellhnas tragoudopoios
na grafei ki'apo dekapente sou3e, ka0e i0agenhs na to sfyrizei sto
mpanio (!) kai ka0e tryferh ypar3h apo 60 kai katw na to xoreuei sta
trapezia, tote ti 0a isxyei to "einai" h to "htan" ???
Marios
Philip Santas
Dev exoume ellnvika fonts (pera apo auta gia Latex) sta unix susthmata
mas e6w, opote eivai 6uskolo va katalabw thv apavthsh. Eav givetai
va tnv exw se ascii, isws ma8w pws mporw akousw kai egw kammia hxografhsh
me arxaia ellnvikh mousikh :-)
Filippos
In article <32B031...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr>,
Phidias Bourlas <ph...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr> wrote:
>Κι όμως, η μουσική στην αρχαία Ελλάδα είχε όντως αναπτυχθεί σε
>πολύ μεγάλο βαθμό και ήταν βασικότατο στοιχείο της παιδείας. Από
>αυτήν άλλωστε προέρχεται η βυζαντινή μουσική. Οι δραματικοί ποιητές
>έγραφαν μαζί με το κείμενο _και_ την μουσική του! Τα αρχαία μουσικά
>σύμβολα είναι εκατοντάδες! Ελάχιστες "παρτιτούρες" έχουν σωθεί,
>υπάρχουν πάντως. Μέχρι και για ιατρικούς σκοπούς εχρησιμοποιείτο
>η μουσική, οι εγχειρήσεις γίνονταν με την κατάλληλη μουσική
>υπόκρουση για να καταπραϋνεται ο πόνος! Η μουσική λοιπόν ήταν εκ των
>ουκ άνευ στην αρχαία Ελλάδα και εθεωρείτο ότι έχει θεία προέλευση.
>Ο Ορφεύς με τη λύρα του ηρεμούσε τα άγρια θηρία και έπεισε τον Άδη
>να του δώσει πίσω την Ευρυδίκη!
>
>Philip Santas wrote:
>>
>> In article <32AE59...@ath.forthnet.gr>, M.K. <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >
>> >Aksizei na shmeiothei
>> >oti polla moysika organa ths arxaiothtas mas paramenoun akoma agnosta.
>> >Akoma to mpoyzoyki px an den kano lathos proerxetai apo mia antallagi
>> >arxaioy ellhnikoy/byzantinoy organoy to opoio to phran oi arabes kai
>> >ystera apo diergasies mas to edosan stin torini toy pali morfi se
>> >emas.
>>
>> Am to mpaglama6aki? 3exases to mpaglama6aki!
>> Megalwse o mpaglamas, k'egive sav bapori!
>> Ti sou leei auto?
>>
>> >Synepos exoyme mia amfidromi sxesi me tin arabikh moysikh.
>> >Epiprostheta,einai gnosto to kallos tis arxaias ellhnikhs moysikhs
>> >to opoio ostoso paramenei sto eyri koino akoma agnosto.
>>
>> Gia pes kava titlo CD me arxaia ellnvikh mousikh bre palikari.
>> Kata protimhsh ta soundtracks tou Sofoklh eav sou briskovtai
>> proxeira. Alla kai oti allo breis!
>> Ti allo 8'akousoume!
>>
>> Filippos
>>
> F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
K.Tsembelis
Na'sai kala pou tous ta eipes, dioti merikoi stin Ellada nomizoun oti
ehoun piasei ton papa apo t'arh..... kai boroun na kanoun oti theloun.
Have a nice day!!!!!!!!
On 11 Dec 1996, Ari Papasakellariou wrote:
> >>se ligo tha mas poune oti o kapitalismos einai politismos!..
>
> H autoktonia ths Elladas sthn 10etia tou '80 htan kalyterh !!!
> Kai apo "politismo", allo tipota! Paradeigma pros mimhsh!
> Anoi3te ta straba sas ekei re stournaria kai koita3te na
> boh8hsete thn kybernhsh na petyxei tous stoxous ths.
> Alliws, eimaste a3ioi ths moiras pou h apotyxia mas epifyllasei.
>
>
Mr K. TSEMBELIS, B.Sc.(Hons),GradInsP TEL:+44(0)1227 764000 ext 7769
Phidias Bourlas
Philip Santas wrote:
>
> Dev exoume ellnvika fonts (pera apo auta gia Latex) sta unix susthmata
> mas e6w, opote eivai 6uskolo va katalabw thv apavthsh.
>
diabasete! ;-)
> Eav givetai
> va tnv exw se ascii, isws ma8w pws mporw akousw kai egw kammia hxografhsh
> me arxaia ellnvikh mousikh :-)
>
Wraia loipov, 8a ya3w va sou brw kai arxaia ellnvikn partitoura!
(Exouv ovtws sw8ei duo-treis!)
(Oso gia to mnvuma, basika egrafa oti, ws gvwstov, n mousikn stnv
arxaia Ellada ntav uper-aveptugmevn, olws sebastn kai basiko stoixeio
tns paideias pou eprepe va parei ka8e veos. Ta mousika sumbola pou
exrnsimopoiouvto ntav ekatovtades. Oi dramatikoi pointes ntav kai
mousourgoi, egrafav mazi me to keimevo kai tn mousikn tou! H mousikn
exrnsimopoieito akoma kai gia 8erapeutikous skopous. (P.x. egxeirnseis
me mousikn upokrousn.) O de Orfeus me tn lura tou nremouse ta agria
8nria...)
Phidias Bourlas
Κι όμως, η μουσική στην αρχαία Ελλάδα είχε όντως αναπτυχθεί σε
πολύ μεγάλο βαθμό και ήταν βασικότατο στοιχείο της παιδείας. Από
αυτήν άλλωστε προέρχεται η βυζαντινή μουσική. Οι δραματικοί ποιητές
έγραφαν μαζί με το κείμενο _και_ την μουσική του! Τα αρχαία μουσικά
σύμβολα είναι εκατοντάδες! Ελάχιστες "παρτιτούρες" έχουν σωθεί,
υπάρχουν πάντως. Μέχρι και για ιατρικούς σκοπούς εχρησιμοποιείτο
η μουσική, οι εγχειρήσεις γίνονταν με την κατάλληλη μουσική
υπόκρουση για να καταπραϋνεται ο πόνος! Η μουσική λοιπόν ήταν εκ των
ουκ άνευ στην αρχαία Ελλάδα και εθεωρείτο ότι έχει θεία προέλευση.
να του δώσει πίσω την Ευρυδίκη!
Philip Santas wrote:
>
> In article <32AE59...@ath.forthnet.gr>, M.K. <mi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >Aksizei na shmeiothei
> >oti polla moysika organa ths arxaiothtas mas paramenoun akoma agnosta.
> >Akoma to mpoyzoyki px an den kano lathos proerxetai apo mia antallagi
> >arxaioy ellhnikoy/byzantinoy organoy to opoio to phran oi arabes kai
> >ystera apo diergasies mas to edosan stin torini toy pali morfi se
> >emas.
>
> Am to mpaglama6aki? 3exases to mpaglama6aki!
> Megalwse o mpaglamas, k'egive sav bapori!
> Ti sou leei auto?
>
> >Synepos exoyme mia amfidromi sxesi me tin arabikh moysikh.
> >Epiprostheta,einai gnosto to kallos tis arxaias ellhnikhs moysikhs
> >to opoio ostoso paramenei sto eyri koino akoma agnosto.
>
> Gia pes kava titlo CD me arxaia ellnvikh mousikh bre palikari.
> Kata protimhsh ta soundtracks tou Sofoklh eav sou briskovtai
> proxeira. Alla kai oti allo breis!
> Ti allo 8'akousoume!
>
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Ari Papasakellariou <ji...@kolmogorov.rice.edu> wrote:
...
>Ena apo ta megalytera problhmata sthn Ellada einai h hmima8eia kai
>o autokompasmos gia na ais8anomaste kalytera.
>Oso gia tous Eurwpaious, dystyxws den eimaste se 8esh na tous
>krinoume th stigmh malista pou exoun ri3ei tou kosmou to ECU sthn
>Ellada kai oi "politismenoi" egxwrioi aeritzhdes ekanan oti mporoun
>na thn xantakwsoun. To paradeigma ths Portogalias, ths Irlandias
>kai ths Ispanias mila apo mono tou.
>H autoktonia ths Elladas sthn 10etia tou '80 htan kalyterh !!!
>Kai apo "politismo", allo tipota! Paradeigma pros mimhsh!
>Anoi3te ta straba sas ekei re stournaria kai koita3te na
>boh8hsete thn kybernhsh na petyxei tous stoxous ths.
>Alliws, eimaste a3ioi ths moiras pou h apotyxia mas epifyllasei.
Ti patsabouro-analuseis einai autes;
1. Poios katasparassei ta dis dollaria pou plhrwnei h Ellada kaqe
xrono gia energeia meta tis petrela'ikes kriseis tou 1970;
Poios ruqmizei tis petrelaiophges kai dieuleush petrelaioforwn
pou erxontai sthn Ellada; H apanthsh einai aplh: H Amerikh.
2. Posa xrhmata qa sou ftanane esena gia na katebaseis ta pantelonia
sou kai na se formaroun alloi; Pente ta'lara; Deka talara;
Giati h Ellada pernei mono ena talaro apo tous alhtes ths EOK
gia to katebasma twn panteloniwn (ekswterikou emporiou) ths
meta to 1981.
3. Posh einai h apostash ths Irlandias, Portogalias, Ispanias apo
ths aneptugmenes oikonomika zwnes ths Dutikhs Eurwphs; Poso
megales einai oi geitonikes xamhlhs texnologias agores se autes
tis xwres; Poios alhths ekleise tis geitonikes agores ths
Elladas meta to 2o PP: H apanthsh einai aplh: H Amerikh.
4. Poios plhrwnei ta maliokefala tou gia na agorazei dutika pana-
kriba stratiwtika ulika; Poios sunthrei auth thn anagkh ths
Ellhnikhs oikonomias; H apanthsh einai aplh: H Amerikh.
5. Pou pane ta paranoma eksagwmena kefalaia ths Elladas, mias pou
to ksezoumisma ths Elladas den epitrepei antagwnistikh dieqnws
paroxh epitokiwn; H apanthsh einai aplh: Sthn Amerikh (mesw
twn tsopano-kratwn ths: Elbetia, Kupros, klp).
6. Giati h Ellada einai sthn EOK; Ma gia na prosdesoun thn Balkanikh
oikonomia epanw ths. Kai etsi anti gia autodunamh Balkanikh oi-
nomia, qa exoume mia oikonomia eksartwmenh apo tis kanonioforous
tou 6ou gamhmenou stolou. (H SIA hksere to ksedontiasma twn
Sobietikwn apo ta telh tou 1970. Apo tote sxediase thn dialush
ths Giougkoslabias kai thn eisodo ths Elladas sthn EOK).
7. Poios propagandizei tis malakies pou anamasas edw; H apanthsh
einai aplh: H Amerikh kai ta tsirakia ths.
Auta, giati bgainw eksw apo ta rouxa mou otan blepw tupous pou upotiqetai
oti exoun kaliterh antilhpsh ths pragmatikothtas, sthn pragmatikothta
aplws tsampounane malakies pio sofistike' epipedou pou tous pasaroun
oi planhtarxes kai ta tsirakia tous shmera. Anti gia eqniko-hliqiothtes
pou mas pasarane oi gamhkoles meta ton 2o PP (kai pou anamasa o Tsakalos),
twra mas pasaroun "dieqnismous" EOKikou tupou. Kai mas gamane ksana
kai ksana, kai pio polu kai pio polu, eite me tous Karamnlhdes tous
eite me tous Papandreoudes tous, eite me tous Mhtsotakhdes tous, eite
me tous Shmites tous.
Oxi re. H Ellada einai pasa's. Kai den wfhlei mia draxmh se kanena
pousth. Autoi oi keratades mas ofeiloun kai mas roufoun ksediantrwpa.
Grhgorhs
YG: Ouden proswpiko. Politiko htan to munhma.
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
...
>akoma kai stnv Krhth (pou thv kateixav oi Arabes merikes 6ekaeties)
>6ev uparxouv amave6es.
Kaneis terastio laqos. Sth Krhth uparxoun apeiroi hxoi amanedwn.
Kai oxi mono hxoi, alla ki h leksh pou xrhsimopoieitai einai h
leksh "amanes". "Ela suntekne na mas peis ena amane" einai stan-
tarnt ekfrash.
Grhgorhs
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>In article Ari Papasakellariou <ji...@kolmogorov.rice.edu> wrote:
>...
Kai ean kapoios parakseneutei kai pei: Ma kala. Den tou aresoun
oi Amerikanoi, den tou resoun oi EOKikoi, den tou aresoun oi
Sobietikoi, den einai eqnikisths, tote TI tou aresei; Apla:
Mou aresei na eimai poliths mias xwras h opoia einai auth o
Planhtarxhs. Epi pleon auth h xwra prepei na exei ws gewgra-
fiko ths kentro thn Krhth (!:-)), kai megeqos toulaxiston iso
twn shmerinwn HPA (tis opoies HPA qelw na tis dw komatiasmenes
se 500 allhlotrwgomena kratidia mexri Deuteras Parousias!:-)).
Auth h xwra qa exei ws epishmh glwssa, kai upoxrewtikh gia olous
tous katoikous ths (opws ta agglika sthn Ellada shmera), mia
_opoiadhpote_ glwssa (ellhnika, tourkika, slabika, agglika,
klp, posos me endiaferei), alla mono mia (topika o kaqenas
mporei na maqainei oti skatoglwssa twn 2,000 leksewn qelei).
Epishs qelw na einai sth kaqhmerinh xrhsh twn meswn mazikhs
plushs, ws kuriarxo eidos texnhs, h texnh ths shmerinhs _Ana-
tolikhs Mesogeiou_. Na pane sto diaolo (h' sto epipedo ths
hmi-mousiakhs mousikhs) oles oi "klassikes eurwpaikes" texnes,
oi rock, oi skata-rock, klp, mazi me olles tis alles texnes
(kinezikh, indikh, afrikanikh, zoulou, kai den kserw ti).
Zhtaw polla;;;;!:-)
Grhgorhs
YG: Mias pou ta parapanw einai aplws oneira qerinhs nuxtos, kai mias
pou sth praksh den mporoume na apofugoume to uliko kai plhrofori-
ako ksepluma kai ksezoumisma apo tous shmerinous ekmetalleutes
(HPA kai doruforoi tous), e tote toulaxiston na skasoun oi hli-
qies automastigwseis mas. Nai, eimaste magkes. To aksizoume,
to peisteuoume, kai den bazoume psillo ston korfo mas!:-) Tou-
laxiston auto _den prepei_ na mas to paroune. H perhfaneia einai
oti mas emeine!:-) Alla perhfaneia apenanti stous ekmetalleutes
mas. Dhladh tis HPA (nautikes dunameis) kai ta tsirakia tous.
Oxi apenanti stous sumpasxontes (kai dunamei sumpatriwtes mas)
geitones!
Twra ekleisa ws "politikos oramatisths"!:-)))
Philip Santas
In article <58qr2k$g...@panix.com>, George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <E2BwA...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU
>
>>In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>>...
>>>akoma kai stnv Krhth (pou thv kateixav oi Arabes merikes 6ekaeties)
>>Kaneis terastio laqos. Sth Krhth uparxoun apeiroi hxoi amanedwn.
>>Kai oxi mono hxoi, alla ki h leksh pou xrhsimopoieitai einai h
>>leksh "amanes". "Ela suntekne na mas peis ena amane" einai stan-
>>tarnt ekfrash.
>akouceis kai tous "au8evtikous" nou fepvouv ta padiokumata ano thv
>Bopeio Afpikh: to aima vepo dev givetai!
Nai bebaia, 3exasa oti kai oi papa6es sthv Krhth pselvouv amave6es :-)
Mea culpa pou to avefaira. Tnv afhvw tnv Krhth e3w apo to epixeirhma,
gia va mhv uparxouv tetoia paratragou6a kai 6iafwvies --xwris auto va
allazei tipota, afou htav arabokratoumevh kai *o8wmavokratoumevh*
(to 6eutero apotelei tmhma tou epixeirhmatos pou avafer8hke apo tnv arxh,
kai euxaristw e6w tov Grhgorh pou to eswse :-)
Ta upoloipa omws 6ev pauw va ta uposthrizw, oti 6nl. se tmhmata tns Ella6as
pou 6ev htav stnv o8wmavikh epikrateia, opws epishs kai stnv upoloiph
Dutikh, Boreia kai Avatolikh Eurwph (pou epirreasthkav apo tn Byzavtivh
koultoura, grammata, filosofies, texves, arxaious Ellnves, mpla, mpla,
mpla, klp, klp, klp), o amaves eivai ektos periballovtos (afairw e6w
ta tmhmata twv Balkaviwv kai tns Ibhrikhs pou kata eva h allo tropo htav
katw apo arabikh h tourkikh kuriarxia).
Twra pou mphke kai o Giwrgos Mpaloglou, isws mporesei va apavthsei, akougovtas
tov amave tns areskeias tou.
Filippos
YG: Shmeiwvw epishs, oti otav leve kati amave opou6hpote 6ev exei va kavei
aparaithta me to eav uparxouv oi klassikoi hxoi twv amave6wv ekei,
afou o oros amaves proerxetai apo to amav-amav pou xrhsimopoiousav oi
tragou6istes pou autosxe6iazav, kai metafer8hke se polles alles morfes
autosxe6iasmou --avaloga me tov Bernstein pou eftase sto shmeio va pei
oti o List egrafe jazz, evvowvtas fusika autosxe6iasmo :-)
George Baloglou
In article <E2BwA...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU
(Gregory Dandulakis) writes:
>In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>...
>>akoma kai stnv Krhth (pou thv kateixav oi Arabes merikes 6ekaeties)
>>6ev uparxouv amave6es.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>Kaneis terastio laqos. Sth Krhth uparxoun apeiroi hxoi amanedwn.
>Kai oxi mono hxoi, alla ki h leksh pou xrhsimopoieitai einai h
>leksh "amanes". "Ela suntekne na mas peis ena amane" einai stan-
>tarnt ekfrash.
... Kai ca va mhv eftave auto, naipveis kai ta bouva ama laxei gia va
akouceis kai tous "au8evtikous" nou fepvouv ta padiokumata ano thv
Bopeio Afpikh: to aima vepo dev givetai!
Giwpgos
Phidias Bourlas
Gregory Dandulakis wrote:
>
> YG: Mias pou ta parapanw einai aplws oneira qerinhs nuxtos, kai mias
> pou sth praksh den mporoume na apofugoume to uliko kai plhrofori-
> ako ksepluma kai ksezoumisma apo tous shmerinous ekmetalleutes
> (HPA kai doruforoi tous), e tote toulaxiston na skasoun oi hli-
> qies automastigwseis mas. Nai, eimaste magkes. To aksizoume,
> to peisteuoume, kai den bazoume psillo ston korfo mas!:-) Tou-
> laxiston auto _den prepei_ na mas to paroune. H perhfaneia einai
> oti mas emeine!:-) Alla perhfaneia apenanti stous ekmetalleutes
> mas. Dhladh tis HPA (nautikes dunameis) kai ta tsirakia tous.
> Oxi apenanti stous sumpasxontes (kai dunamei sumpatriwtes mas)
> geitones!
>
(Tourkia, Skopia, Albavia) va eivai sugxrovws kai tsirakia tous, ti
kavoume tote;!;
F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
Philip Santas
In article <19961211193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
MKroki7879 <mkrok...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Music reflects the socioeconomic conditions that is created from - like
>any other art form.
>So instead of asking why there are not inspirational composers, ask why
>the composers cannot be insired by the existing conditions.
Dev arkei va uparxouv movo "conditions" pou empveouv, alla prepei
va uparxouv kai "composers" pou empveovtai, opws kai koivo va tous
suvthrei.
- Isws n Ella6a va eivai mikrh agora (me ta shmeriva 6e6omeva) gia va
eivai autarkhs se mousikh (h se ka8e texvh). Opote pio f8hvh n eisagwmevh.
- H isws va ftaive 6iafores politikes sugkhries: 2 polemoi, emfulioi,
6iktatories, kai paei legovtas.
- Isws epishs to morfwtiko epipe6o va suvexizei va eivai xamhlo --stis arxes
tou aiwva hr8av oi morfwmevoi mikrasiates stous xwriates tns kurias Ella6as,
kai ftia3ave ta rempetika (auta eixav ma8ei stnv O8wmavia, auta kavave),
mexri pou phrav morfh xiovostiba6as, givave mo6a, alla meta sterepsave kai
autoi. Pavtws 6ev eivai polloi oi Ellnves pou paizouv kala kapoio mousiko orgavo,
h exouv megalh katarthsh se mousikh, se sxesh pavta me tnv upoloiph Eurwph.
8a elega oti o tritos logos eivai o pio shmavtikos, giati oi 6uo prwtoi logoi
mallov avairouvtai eukola, ama kavw sugkrish me alles mikres xwres.
Px. Kouba pou perase apo emfulious, kai suvexizei va eivai katw
apo 6iktatoria (kai oikovomiko empargko), alla pou suvexizei va paragei
kai va e3agei tnv mousikh tns koultoura...
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <32B054...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr>,
Phidias Bourlas <ph...@softlab.ece.ntua.gr> wrote:
>
> (Oso gia to mnvuma, basika egrafa oti, ws gvwstov, n mousikn stnv
>arxaia Ellada ntav uper-aveptugmevn, olws sebastn kai basiko stoixeio
>tns paideias pou eprepe va parei ka8e veos. Ta mousika sumbola pou
>exrnsimopoiouvto ntav ekatovtades. Oi dramatikoi pointes ntav kai
>mousourgoi, egrafav mazi me to keimevo kai tn mousikn tou! H mousikn
Nai bebaia, gi'auto kai egw o ftwxos zhthsa kava titlo CD apo soundtrack
tou Sofoklh, tov opoio titlo omws ou6epote elaba...
>exrnsimopoieito akoma kai gia 8erapeutikous skopous. (P.x. egxeirnseis
>me mousikn upokrousn.) O de Orfeus me tn lura tou nremouse ta agria
>8nria...)
Aaa, opws kavouv kati guftoi stnv Iv6ia pou hremouv apo kompres mexri
elefavtes me ta fusokalama tous! Ts, ts, ts!
Dev avtitax8hke kaveis se auta pou les twra. Omws auta exouv megalh
apostash apo auta pou eipw8hkav h6h apo merikous allous, oti 6nl
1) eivai eurutata gvwsto to kallos tns arxaias ellnvikhs mousikhs
(opws leme 6nl, eivai 6ie8vws gvwsto to kalos tns Xiovaths!)
2) pou eivai kaluterh apo tnv klassikh,kivezikh,amave6es,kok
3) kai exei pio polles votes (auto omologw 6ev to polukatalaba)
evw tautoxrova 6nlwvouv oti
4) h arxaia ellnvikh mousikh eivai agvwstn sto euru koivo
--evw eivai 6hl gvwsth se autous?
> Wraia loipov, 8a ya3w va sou brw kai arxaia ellnvikn partitoura!
>(Exouv ovtws sw8ei duo-treis!)
Nai, kave to psuxiko. Bres mia kai kalh!
Filippos
George Alex Stathis
Tous ekpolitizoume. :-)
Giorgos
Y.G.
Prosqesa to apospasma pou akolouqei, oxi apo... egwismo, alla... epeidh apotelei 'ekpolitistikh'
prospaqeia pou... apetyxe (toulaxiston oson afora to proswpo sto opoio apey8yn8hke)...
(gia namaste kai Realistes, ki oxi mono... xeimerinoi kolymbhtes!)
**********************************************************************************
Let's be reasonable: We OWN THE WORLD COPYRIGHTS of the term "MACEDONIA"(TM).
For These copyrights, we demand no... royalties! ROTFL... they are FREE! :-)
So We should stand with our heads high, proud descendants of Alexander and
Aristotle, respecting other peoples, especially our friends and... lovers
the... Slavs, and say to them:
Hey you, up there in Skopia,
We NOW, HEREBY
DONATE
THE NAME "MACEDONIA"(c)
to the... P U B L I C D O M A I N! :-)
So, dear Macedonian Slavs (and other inhabitants of FYROM):
Respect our copyrights, use *our* name as you see fit, But DON'T FALSIFY IT.
Call yourselves North-Macedonians, or New Macedonians, or whatever. But
you are not "THE" Macedonians. We even invented the WORD itself, ya know! :-)
We hereby give it to you for _free_, you know... SO WHAT? - NO ROYALTIES...
We do NOT try to "buy" your patriotism, or your conscience, or anything...
( we do think you're out of your minds, but who isn't... anyway! ;-) )
But *you* must respect our rights to ALSO BE MACEDONIANS. ...hell, *why not*?
Not only historically (more ancient than you) but also geographically, we have
the right to be MACEDONIANS(tm) too, just like you, or (indeed) MORE than you!
Thus, IMHO, we get the one and only solution, which is... *many* solutions,
namely 3 (regions): - GREEK Macedonia, NORTH MAcedonia, BULGARIAN MAcedonia.
We will never accept you as "Macedonia", but only as ANOTHER MACEDONIA...
*************************************************************************
( problem solved. )
George Baloglou
In article <E2By0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU
>
>Mou aresei na eimai poliths mias xwras h opoia einai auth o
>Planhtarxhs. Epi pleon auth h xwra prepei na exei ws gewgra-
>fiko ths kentro thn Krhth (!:-)), kai megeqos toulaxiston iso
>twn shmerinwn HPA (tis opoies HPA qelw na tis dw komatiasmenes
>se 500 allhlotrwgomena kratidia mexri Deuteras Parousias!:-)).
>Auth h xwra qa exei ws epishmh glwssa, kai upoxrewtikh gia olous
>tous katoikous ths (opws ta agglika sthn Ellada shmera), mia
>_opoiadhpote_ glwssa (ellhnika, tourkika, slabika, agglika,
>klp, posos me endiaferei), alla mono mia (topika o kaqenas
>mporei na maqainei oti skatoglwssa twn 2,000 leksewn qelei).
>Epishs qelw na einai sth kaqhmerinh xrhsh twn meswn mazikhs
>plushs, ws kuriarxo eidos texnhs, h texnh ths shmerinhs _Ana-
>tolikhs Mesogeiou_. Na pane sto diaolo (h' sto epipedo ths
>hmi-mousiakhs mousikhs) oles oi "klassikes eurwpaikes" texnes,
>oi rock, oi skata-rock, klp, mazi me olles tis alles texnes
>(kinezikh, indikh, afrikanikh, zoulou, kai den kserw ti).
>
>Zhtaw polla;;;;!:-)
25-30 xpovia apgotepa:
Gphgopios A' o Dolios, Autokpatwp Kphths kai Ix8uokpatwp Avatolikhs Mecogeiou
:-)
Phidias Bourlas
CD kai ta pavta!
Pame loipov.
H ellnvikn texvologia mousikwv orgavwv exei istoria xilietiwv. Ws
prwto deigma autns feretai o osteivos aulos tou 5250 p.X., o opoios
bre8nke sto veoli8iko oikismo tou Dispnliou tns limvns tns Kastorias.
(Ekei bre8nke kai n perifnmn 3ulivn evepigrafn pivakida.) Exoume
meta p.x. to perifnmo agalmatidio tou arpistn tns Kerou (2500 p.X.).
Kai ftavoume sta uynlns texvologias mousika orgava pou bre8nkav
prosfata sto Diov. (P.x. n udraulis (udrauliko mousiko orgavo) tou
Ktnsibiou, 3os ai. p.X.)
H mousikn armovia pngazei apo kai ekfrazei tnv 8eia kai ouravia
armovia.
Oi 7 xordes tns luras (upatn, parupatn, upermesn, mesn, paramesn,
paraveatn, veatn) avtistoixouv sta 7 ouravia swmata (Krovos, Zeus,
Arns, Hlios, Ermns, Afroditn, Selnvn).
Oi Orfikoi apokalousav tov Hlio xrusolurn, aulntn, karpoforo paiav.
Tov Apollwva makario paiav, arxngo tou xorou twv Mouswv. Tov Asklnpio
despotn paiav.
O Omnros avaferei oti oi traumaties egxeirizovto upo tous nxous tns
luras, gia va xalarwvouv. Oi Pu8agoreioi xrnsimopoiousav tn mousikn
gia tn 8erapeia yuxikwv pa8nsewv. Platwv, Aristotelns, Ippokratns,
Kelsos, Ploutarxos, Galnvos k.a. milouv gia tnv euergetikn epidrasn
tns mousikns stnv av8rwpivn yuxn.
Ka8e eidos mousikns 8ewreitai oti ekfrazei kai eva sugkekrimevo
n8os. Stn melopoiia exoume to diastaltikov n8os (megaloprepeia), to
sustaltikov (erwtika tragoudia, 8rnvoi) kai to nsuxastikov.
Uparxouv 7 tropoi (armovies) stnv arxaia ellnvikn mousikn. O Dwrios
(megaloprepns, avdrwdns), o Frugios (ev8eos), o Ludios (malakos,
sumpotikos, morfwtikos), o Mi3oludios (8rnvwdns, pa8ntikos), o
Upodwrios-Aiolikos (upernfavos, pompwdns, sta8eros, uynlos), o
Iwvikos-Upofrugios (sklnros, austnros), o Upoludios (bakxikos,
filndovos, me8ustikos).
O,ti gvwrizoume gia tnv arxaia parasnmavtikn (mousiko sustnma
grafns), to ofeiloume sto mousikografo Alupio (3os ai. m.X.), o
opoios sto ergo tou "Eisagwgikn Mousikn" para8etei ola ta sumbola tns
fwvntikns kai tns orgavikns snmeiografias, pou avtistoixouv se olous
tous tropous. Exrnsimopoiouvto ta grammata tou alfabntou or8ia,
apestrammeva, avestrammeva n' uperfortwmeva. Suvolika 1620
mousikologika snmeia. Xarn sto ergo tou Alupiou egive efiktn n ek veou
melopoinsn twv swzomevwv arxaioellnvikwv mousikwv keimevwv kai n ekdosn
tous se diskous kai CD toso apo allodapous (Gregorio Paniagua -
sugkrotnma Knrulos) oso kai apo Ellnves (Xristodoulos Xalarns kai
Petros Tampourns)
Bibliografia:
Solwv Mixanlidns, "Egkuklopaideia tns Arxaias Ellnvikns Mousikns",
Morfwtiko Idruma E8vikns Trapezns.
Xristodoulos Xalarns, "Arxaia Ellnvikn Mousikn", ev8eto sto omwvumo CD.
--
F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
Ari Papasakellariou
In article <E2By0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>In article Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>In article Ari Papasakellariou <ji...@kolmogorov.rice.edu> wrote:
>Kai ean kapoios parakseneutei kai pei: Ma kala. Den tou aresoun
>oi Amerikanoi, den tou resoun oi EOKikoi, den tou aresoun oi
>Sobietikoi, den einai eqnikisths, tote TI tou aresei; Apla:
B
>YG: Mias pou ta parapanw einai aplws oneira qerinhs nuxtos, kai mias
> pou sth praksh den mporoume na apofugoume to uliko kai plhrofori-
> ako ksepluma kai ksezoumisma apo tous shmerinous ekmetalleutes
> (HPA kai doruforoi tous), e tote toulaxiston na skasoun oi hli-
> qies automastigwseis mas. Nai, eimaste magkes. To aksizoume,
> to peisteuoume, kai den bazoume psillo ston korfo mas!:-) Tou-
> laxiston auto _den prepei_ na mas to paroune. H perhfaneia einai
> oti mas emeine!:-) Alla perhfaneia apenanti stous ekmetalleutes
> mas. Dhladh tis HPA (nautikes dunameis) kai ta tsirakia tous.
> Oxi apenanti stous sumpasxontes (kai dunamei sumpatriwtes mas)
> geitones!
Grhgorh, ta headers deixnoun oti esteiles kai allo mhnyma to opoio
den exei ftasei akoma sto newsreader mou. Anyway ...
Epeidh polloi sthn Ellada pipilane akoma thn karamela gia tous
"kakous" Amerikanous h' tous Eurwpaious, kai epeidh ekanes kai esy
auth thn anafora, na kanw kai egw mia mikrh parathrhsh.
Re paidia, trela8hkate entelws? Afaireste apo auto ton kosmo tous
Eurwpaious, kata kyrio logo, kai tous Boreioamerikanous kai
auto pou menei apo ton planhth einai enas terasteios oxetos
me ton opoio h Ellada den exei kamia syggeneia, oute symferon,
oute kanena mellon. Long live ta Eurwpaika/Ellhnika idewdh.
Se auta basizetai h ypar3h mas kai eseis skefteste ekfylistika
alternatives? Kai nai, h perhfania yparxei kai 8a yparxei stous
Ellhnes. H phgh ths omws den exei sxesh me to bo8ro pou apokaleis
"geitones". Exei sxesh me to oti o "prwtos" kosmos shmera exei
san bash tou Ellhnika idewdh, exei sxesh me to oti h Ellada einai
se POLY kalyterh katastash apo ton perigyro (parola ta empodia
pou ypanaptyktoi geitones fernoun), exei sxesh me thn Ellhnikh
koultoura tou filotimou, thn ypar3h atomikhs tautothtas kai syneidhshs,
thn koinwnikh morfwsh, thn ypar3h sta8erou kai plousiou politismikou
ypoba8rou, ktl.
Kai afou aneferes 3ezoumisma, na anaferw ena antiepixeirhma pou
mou eipe enas Agglos. H Ellada einai ekmetaleuths tous giati
tous 3ezoumizei ta funds :-). Fantasou ti 8a elegan oi Ellhnes
gia tous Agglous an auth h katastash htan antistrofh !!!
O Le Pa ekmetaleuths ton Agglosa3onwn :-).
H kentrikh idea einai mia. San Ellhnas, euxaristw thn istoria gia thn
ypar3h Eurwpaiwn. Alliws h an8rwpothta 8a briskotan pio pisw apo
thn epoxh ths anakalhpshs tou troxou kai 8a mas eixe pni3ei h kafrila.
Aris
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>
>In article Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>3. Posh einai h apostash ths Irlandias, Portogalias, Ispanias apo
...
>Mia stigmh, n Ispavia epi Fragko eixe megalh 6iafora, omws auth
>meiwvetai, isws logw mege8ous tou kratous --6ev 3erw tous logous,
>pavtws exei meiw8ei n 6iafora.
H "diafora" ennoei "gewgrafikh diafora".
H Ellada prin mpei sthn EOK eftiaxne (hmi)biomhxanika proionta ta opoia
hdh paragontousan sthn EOK se polu kaliteres times kai poiothtes. Me
to pou mphkame mesa kai to ekswteriko emporio apeleuqerwqhke, h Ellh-
nikh paragwgh epaqe apisteuto kazo, opou mono kai mono h eksaqliwsh twn
misqwn den mporouse na antistaqmisei. Alla h foberh kaqizhsh sthn esw-
terikh agora egine se para polla gewrgika proionta. Ksana h dutiko-
eurwpaikh gewrgia ekane kaliterh epeksergasia kai paragwgh se pampolla,
kuriws galaktokomika proionta. Me to pou mphkame to 1981, to gewrgi-
ko isozugeio me thn EOK apo prin kaqara qetiko egine kaqara arnhtiko,
me terastia mageqh. Me thn eisodo de ths Ispanias kai ths
Portogallias, akoma kai kaqara Mesogeiaka proionta ths Elladas, pou
eixane akoma to antagwnistiko proterrhma (p.x. frouta), epaqan api-
steuto kaziki, mias pou oi nees xwres ta parhgagan, kai ta emporeuon-
tan fthnotera giati htan pio konta se kosto metaforas. Akoma pio polu
kaqizhsh ths antagwnistikothtas mas.
Me liga logia, otan h Ellada mphke sthn EOK den eixe _ixnos_
_sumplhrwmatikothtas_ se oikonomikh paragwgh me thn EOK, etsi
wste h eisodo mas na einai omalh. Antiqetws htan to megalo
_kabli_. Kai tis pentarodekares pou mas dinane se antistaqmisma,
htan _mono kai mono_ tufla sta matia mas, gia thn foberh katastro-
fh ths Ellhnikhs oikonomias pou shmaine. Bebaia sthn arxh ta
krubame ola auta me tous danismous apo eksw, pou epetrepan akoma
ston Papandreou na sunexisei sthn prwth tetraetia tou th taktikh
tou Karamanlh ths aukshsh tou kaqarou diaqesimou eisodhmatos
twn politwn. Alla to kabli paramphke, kai twra plhrwnoume ta
keratiatika. Paromoia sunebh epi Karamanlh me tis petrelaikes
kriseis, opou ksafnika oi Amerikanoi (mesw twn arabo-doulwn tous)
roufagan thn Ellhnikh oikonomia (kai olou tou tritou kosmou). H
Ellhnikh oikonomia stamathse na ependuei, se sxesh me prin, giati
den uphrxe pleon pleonasma, kai se antistaqmisma trwgame to te-
leutaio lipo mas, me tis mazikes uperxrewseis olwn twn megalwn
Ellhnikwn biomhxaniwn. Tautoxrona de o Karamanlhs, me skopo na
xtisei to neo politiko skhniko, afksane ragdaia ta kaqara eiso-
dhmata.
>To oti oi Sobietikoi bghkav e3w apo to paixvi6i, 6ev shmaivei oti
>epai3av mikro movo rolo stnv 6iamorfwsh tns shmerivhs katastashs (kai
>sigoura oxi mikrotero apo tov rolo tns amerikavikhs grafeiokratias).
Kai bebaia oxi. Alla to kleisimo twn emporikwn sxesewn ths Elladas
apo ta Balkania egine apo tous Amerikanous, oxi apo tous Sobietikous.
Oi Amerikanoi foboumenoi thn plhrh oikomikh eksarthsh ths Elladas
apo tis geitonikes ths xwres, epebalan to ousiastiko kleisimo twn
emporikwn sxesewn, parolh thn entonh prosklhsh apo tous geitones
na anoixtoume. Bebaia to 1980 oi Amerikanoi stamathsan ta dwrakia
sth Giougko, kaqws kai to dikaiwma na exoun prosbash sthn Amerika-
nikh agora eleuqerws. Apotelesma h Giougko oikonomia na kanei
eleuqerh boutia sto keno. Ta apotelesmata (me thn ekpaideush
twn strathgwn tou Touzman sthn Washngton, kai th eklektikh stra-
tiwtikh uposthriksh twn anti-omospondwn apo tis HPA) einai twra
pagkoinws gnwsto.
Kai parepimptontws. "Dutikos" kosmos, dhladh kosmos upoxeireios
sta xeria ths nautikhs dunamhs, HPA, den einai mono h HPA, kai
ta gewpolitika tsirakia ths sthn Eurasia. "Dutikos kosmos" einai
kai olh h Latinikh Amerikh, kai sxedon olh h Afrikh, apo opou
oi kaoumpoudes exoun eleuqero xeri sth rimaksh twn prwtwn ulwn
tous, metalleutikwn kai gewrgikwn. Kane th souma na deis thn
"eumaria" tou dutikou kosmou. Ws pros de thn Ellada, to poso
"bohqhhke", tsekare th Slobenia, Tsexia, klp. Oi upoloipoi twra
pairnoun to kaziki pou eixame emeis thn periodod 1944-1949. H
oikonomia tous ksedontiazetai, me skopo na thn anaskeuasoun me
tetoio tropo pou na tous afhnei olous ekteqhmenous ston 6o stolo.
Kai otan oloi plhn Rwssias einai pleon ekteqimenoi stis kanonio-
forous twn HPA, tote mporoume na eksafanisoume kai ta purhnika,
wste na exoume _plhrws eustaqh_, kai bebaia eis ton aiwna ton
apanta, katadunasteush tou kosmou oloklhrou apo tous apogonous
autwn pou bazane ta indianika gunaikopaida se xwrafia kai ksamo-
lagane tous stratiwtes me ta gualismena matia gia na ksekoilia-
zoun me tis ksifologxes tous "pan mh amerikanika elegxomeno".
Kai alla logia na agapiomaste...
Grhgorhs
Gregory Dandulakis
In article George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>In article (Gregory Dandulakis) writes:
>
>>Kaneis terastio laqos. Sth Krhth uparxoun apeiroi hxoi amanedwn.
>>Kai oxi mono hxoi, alla ki h leksh pou xrhsimopoieitai einai h
>>leksh "amanes". "Ela suntekne na mas peis ena amane" einai stan-
>>tarnt ekfrash.
>
>... Kai ca va mhv eftave auto, naipveis kai ta bouva ama laxei gia va
>akouceis kai tous "au8evtikous" nou fepvouv ta padiokumata ano thv
>Bopeio Afpikh: to aima vepo dev givetai!
Mpa, den xreiazetai na parw ta bouna. Oi anqrwpoi menoun panw sta
katsabraxa tou Pshloreith (notia pleura). Ws pros to aima, qa pre-
pei na ksereis to sxetikh rhsh tou Kazantzakh, e;
Grhgorhs
PS: As pw kai mia mantinada: "Oi mantinades k' oi xoroi
kai ta polla tragoudia
ekanane ton Manolio
na koutoula ta bougia!"
George Alex Stathis
Gregory Dandulakis wrote:
> Kai parepimptontws. "Dutikos" kosmos, dhladh kosmos upoxeireios
> sta xeria ths nautikhs dunamhs, HPA, den einai mono h HPA, kai
> ta gewpolitika tsirakia ths sthn Eurasia. "Dutikos kosmos" einai
> kai olh h Latinikh Amerikh, kai sxedon olh h Afrikh, apo opou
> oi kaoumpoudes exoun eleuqero xeri sth rimaksh twn prwtwn ulwn
> tous, metalleutikwn kai gewrgikwn. Kane th souma na deis thn
> "eumaria" tou dutikou kosmou. Ws pros de thn Ellada, to poso
> "bohqhhke", tsekare th Slobenia, Tsexia, klp. Oi upoloipoi twra
> pairnoun to kaziki pou eixame emeis thn periodod 1944-1949. H
> oikonomia tous ksedontiazetai, me skopo na thn anaskeuasoun me
> tetoio tropo pou na tous afhnei olous ekteqhmenous ston 6o stolo.
> Kai otan oloi plhn Rwssias einai pleon ekteqimenoi stis kanonio-
> forous twn HPA, tote mporoume na eksafanisoume kai ta purhnika,
> wste na exoume _plhrws eustaqh_, kai bebaia eis ton aiwna ton
> apanta, katadunasteush tou kosmou oloklhrou apo tous apogonous
> autwn pou bazane ta indianika gunaikopaida se xwrafia kai ksamo-
> lagane tous stratiwtes me ta gualismena matia gia na ksekoilia-
> zoun me tis ksifologxes tous "pan mh amerikanika elegxomeno".
>
> Kai alla logia na agapiomaste...
>
> Grhgorhs
Kapoios filos, Grhgorh, pou exei kanei _akribws_ paromoies skepseis kai
analyseis me tis dikes sou (kai... DEN diafwnw) se sxetikh etwthsh mou,
typou "Kai... ti kanoume twra" eipe (peripou) ta ekshs:
"To mono pi8ano pou blepw ston orizonta, eite to 8eloume eite oxi, einai h
anodos twn Asiatwn sto proskhnio, kai (telika) sthn planhtikh eksousia. Dioti
oxi mono oi Kinezoi einai kyriolektika oi polyplh8esteroi, kai oi paragwgikoteroi,
alla kai giati h glwssa kai o politismos tous (asxeta me ton shmerino aytarxismo
ths koinwnias tous) einai o monos antaksios enos kosmou opou ta "dytika" idewdh
kai oi dolofonikes synepeies tous exoun pleon ekleipsei, akomh pio pi8ano na
symbei san apotelesma enos "3ou" megalou polemou (Dyshs / Islam)..."
Den gnwrizw arketa gia na pw me bebaiothta mia gnwmh ep'autou (san pi8anothta).
Omws o kinezikos politismos (me to "Tao Teh Ching" tou Lao Tzu arketo gnwsto
gia to megaleio tou, kai ta ideogrammata poly ekfrastikwtera twn mono-diastatwn
dytikwn leksewn kai glwsswn)... einai isws kati pou 8a prepei na mas apasxolhsei,
sto mellon. Alliws, TI na kanoume me tous "geitones" pou einai xronia pisw?...
Teleiwnontas ofeilw na kanw to "disclaimer" oti den eimai ka8olou "kinezofilos"
alla oute kai... "antikinezos". H Amerikh 8a faei to MEGALYTERO kabli apo thn
Kina outws h allws... anexomenh thn Kina kai malista ependyontas sthn. Anexetai
kai to ka8estws kai thn "plateia Tien-Amen"... gia xarh twn "dollars"...
Ta sxolia sou poly eyprosdekta
Giwrgos
Y.G.
Oso gia thn Eyrwph (kai emas)... se periptwsh syrrakshs Dyshs - Islam, ei8e na
eimaste oi "oudeteroi mesazontes kai parathrhtes". Oi Arabes den 8a riksoun pote
bombes pyrhnikes sthn Ellada, kai oi Tourkoi 8a fane ta moutra tous phgainontas
me tous Amerikanous... (alla ayta einai eikasies kai ypo8eseis deytereuouses)...
M.K.
Phidias Bourlas wrote:
megale poly oraia ayta poy grafeis ..exo merikes erotiseis.
>
> H ellnvikn texvologia mousikwv orgavwv exei istoria xilietiwv. Ws
> prwto deigma autns feretai o osteivos aulos tou 5250 p.X., o opoios
> bre8nke sto veoli8iko oikismo tou Dispnliou tns limvns tns Kastorias.
> (Ekei bre8nke kai n perifnmn 3ulivn evepigrafn pivakida.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
poia akribos ksylini enepigrafi pinakida ? exo akoysei oti exei brethei
mia me orfikoys stoixos poy ypologizetai oti einai toy 5.000-6.000 P.X.
> meta p.x. to perifnmo agalmatidio tou arpistn tns Kerou (2500 p.X.).
> Kai ftavoume sta uynlns texvologias mousika orgava pou bre8nkav
> prosfata sto Diov. (P.x. n udraulis (udrauliko mousiko orgavo) tou
> Ktnsibiou, 3os ai. p.X.)
akoysa oti prospathisan na ksanaftiaksoyn tin ydraulis fetos stoys
delfoys me oxi kai plhros epityxi apotelesmata kathos xrhsimopoiouse
polyploki texnikh.
> H mousikn armovia pngazei apo kai ekfrazei tnv 8eia kai ouravia
> armovia.
> Oi 7 xordes tns luras (upatn, parupatn, upermesn, mesn, paramesn,
> paraveatn, veatn) avtistoixouv sta 7 ouravia swmata (Krovos, Zeus,
> Arns, Hlios, Ermns, Afroditn, Selnvn).
> Oi Orfikoi apokalousav tov Hlio xrusolurn, aulntn, karpoforo paiav.
> Tov Apollwva makario paiav, arxngo tou xorou twv Mouswv. Tov Asklnpio
> despotn paiav.
> O Omnros avaferei oti oi traumaties egxeirizovto upo tous nxous tns
> luras, gia va xalarwvouv. Oi Pu8agoreioi xrnsimopoiousav tn mousikn
> gia tn 8erapeia yuxikwv pa8nsewv. Platwv, Aristotelns, Ippokratns,
> Kelsos, Ploutarxos, Galnvos k.a. milouv gia tnv euergetikn epidrasn
> tns mousikns stnv av8rwpivn yuxn.
>
>
>
> Bibliografia:
>
> Solwv Mixanlidns, "Egkuklopaideia tns Arxaias Ellnvikns Mousikns",
> Morfwtiko Idruma E8vikns Trapezns.
>
> Xristodoulos Xalarns, "Arxaia Ellnvikn Mousikn", ev8eto sto omwvumo CD.
Ksereis mipos poy yparxoyn perissoteres tetoies plhrofories ?
Ti les akoma na stisoyme ena Web Site poy tha mazepsei tetoioy idoys
plifories..
Filika,
Alexandros
> --
> F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image] [Image]
Gregory Dandulakis
>25-30 xpovia apgotepa:
>
>Gphgopios A' o Dolios, Autokpatwp Kphths kai Ix8uokpatwp Avatolikhs Mecogeiou
Giwrgaki apo sena den perimena gkaimpelistikes taktikes.
Mporei na exoume shmantikes diafores ws pros tis ektimhseis
shmerinwn katastasewn, kai mellontikwn beltistwn, alla den
nomizw na exw dwsei dikaiwma gia teteio xarakthrismo.
Kserokefalos (san kai sena) kai anti-komformisths (oxi san
kai sena) exoun kaliterh piqanothta eilikrinou xarakthrismou
mou.
Grhgorhs
YG: Kserw oti ebales gelakia, ara h ekfrash sou htan pio polu
pros to euqumo, alla kalou-kakou as kanoume kai mia para-
thrhsh gia th fush ths parathrhshs. Den einai oloi edw mesa
tou kafeniou susthmatikoi qamwnes.
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Gregory Dandulakis (gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: Oxi re. H Ellada einai pasa's. Kai den wfhlei mia draxmh se kanena
: pousth. Autoi oi keratades mas ofeiloun kai mas roufoun ksediantrwpa.
Poios ksypnhse me lathos podi pou lene kai oi ithageneis...
Gia pes mou re Grhgorh, pou euthynetai h Amerikh sta parakatw:
1. Ellhnikh nootropia tou diorismou sto dhmosio. Apotelesma, opoia
dhpote yphresia exei 2, 3 kai parapanw fores osous xreiazetai
(ERT, Olympiakh) kai mhden paragwgikothta. Evale h Amerikh
kai h TWA to podaraki ths kai proslave h Olympiakh xiliades?
2. Ellhnikh agora me MHDEN synagwnismo, kai apotelesma paraloges
times agoras kai elaxisth epilogh.
3. Forologia tou kerata se otidhpote (autokinhto, stereo...) pou
mas anagkazei na plhrwnoume ta panta dipla kai tridipla.
Se macro level den diafwnw mazi sou. Dystyxws pionia eimaste. Alla
sto epipedo pou o mesos Ellhnas vlepei kai katalavainei, pios ta
ekane? Kapoios grafeiokraths sth Washington h emeis?
Spiros
--
[+=] EMAIL: stri...@indy.net URL: http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~strianta
Graduate Student (CEE), Human Factors Engineering, Purdue University
Actively pursuing the 3 R's (Reading, 'Rithmetic, and Readnews) since 1983
Philip Santas
In article <E2F1y...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>H Ellada prin mpei sthn EOK eftiaxne (hmi)biomhxanika proionta ta opoia
>hdh paragontousan sthn EOK se polu kaliteres times kai poiothtes. Me
>to pou mphkame mesa kai to ekswteriko emporio apeleuqerwqhke, h Ellh-
>nikh paragwgh epaqe apisteuto kazo, opou mono kai mono h eksaqliwsh twn
>misqwn den mporouse na antistaqmisei. Alla h foberh kaqizhsh sthn esw-
>terikh agora egine se para polla gewrgika proionta. Ksana h dutiko-
>eurwpaikh gewrgia ekane kaliterh epeksergasia kai paragwgh se pampolla,
>kuriws galaktokomika proionta. Me to pou mphkame to 1981, to gewrgi-
>ko isozugeio me thn EOK apo prin kaqara qetiko egine kaqara arnhtiko,
>me terastia mageqh. Me thn eisodo de ths Ispanias kai ths
>Portogallias, akoma kai kaqara Mesogeiaka proionta ths Elladas, pou
>eixane akoma to antagwnistiko proterrhma (p.x. frouta), epaqan api-
>steuto kaziki, mias pou oi nees xwres ta parhgagan, kai ta emporeuon-
>tan fthnotera giati htan pio konta se kosto metaforas. Akoma pio polu
>kaqizhsh ths antagwnistikothtas mas.
Kai pou h8eles bre Grhgorn va poulame ta portokalia?
Stnv Boulgaria kai Roumavia? Exeis 6ei poso paei to kilo ekei? --stnv
Rwsia me 1 6ollario amerikaviko pairveis 3 kila portokalia.
8a arese stous Ellnves agrotes va ta poulousav me tetoies times?
H va ta poulhsouv pou allou? stnv Arabia? Afou ekei exouv ta 6ika tous
portokalia, mazi kai ta tourkika kai israhlva --pou fusika ta briskeis
kai stis ellnvikes agores, se kaluteres times kai poiothta apo ta
avtistoixa ellnvika.
Ama 6eis tis *uparxouses* evallaktikes luseis, eivai apeirws xeiroteres
apo tnv tetelesmevh epilogh.
Dev les kala pou uparxei kai n EE (prwhv EOK) pou roufa polla apo ta
*skarta* kai pavakriba ellnvika agrotika proiovta, giati 8a to eixav kleisei
to magazi teleiws. Dev ftaiei n EOK pou ta ellnvika agrotika proiovta
eivai *skarta* (to movo isws ellnviko proiov pou proswpika 8ewrw to
kalutero stov avtagwvismo, eivai to elaiola6o --6ev piavouv tipota ta
italika h ispavika mprosta sto kalamatiavo kai ...lesbiako :-)...
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <E2F1y...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>keratiatika. Paromoia sunebh epi Karamanlh me tis petrelaikes
>kriseis, opou ksafnika oi Amerikanoi (mesw twn arabo-doulwn tous)
>roufagan thn Ellhnikh oikonomia (kai olou tou tritou kosmou). H
>Ellhnikh oikonomia stamathse na ependuei, se sxesh me prin, giati
>den uphrxe pleon pleonasma, kai se antistaqmisma trwgame to te-
>leutaio lipo mas, me tis mazikes uperxrewseis olwn twn megalwn
>Ellhnikwn biomhxaniwn. Tautoxrona de o Karamanlhs, me skopo na
>xtisei to neo politiko skhniko, afksane ragdaia ta kaqara eiso-
>dhmata.
Auto pou les gia to petrelaio 8a eprepe va isxuei gia oles tis
xwres pou 6ev paragouv petrelaio, opws px. Germavia, Gallia, Ollav6ia,
Austria, Ispavia, kok. kai oxi movo gia tov trito kosmo.
Omws oles oi parapavw xwres au3hsav to biomhxaviko tous 6uvamiko,
par'oles tis kriseis (mporeis va peis twra oti n Germavia kai to Belgio
exouv karbouvo, omws oute n Ollav6ia, oute n Austria exouv).
Sigoura ais8av8hkav kati sta pisiva tous, kai gi'auto apofasisav
va sumfwvhsouv me tnv Rwsia gia paroxh fusikou aeriou apo tnv Sibhria
stnv Dush (kati sto opoio avte6rasav oi HPA, kai 3eroume tous logous).
Omws par'oles tis 6uskolies (kai polemous) suvexizouv oi eurwpa"ikes
xwres va exouv kalutero biotiko epipe6o, kai kaluterh oikovomia apo
tis HPA.
Opote to gegovos oti stnv Ella6a merika pragmata 6ev eivai opws ta
8eloume, 6ev eivai apotelesma movo tns politikhs twv HPA (pou eivai
minor aitia, opws 6eixvouv ta parapavw para6eigmata), alla kai tns
vtopias politikhs twv i8agevwv (kuria aitia).
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <32B3D5...@hol.gr>,
George Alex Stathis <hype...@hol.gr> wrote:
>
>Kapoios filos, Grhgorh, pou exei kanei _akribws_ paromoies skepseis kai
>analyseis me tis dikes sou (kai... DEN diafwnw) se sxetikh etwthsh mou,
>typou "Kai... ti kanoume twra" eipe (peripou) ta ekshs:
>
>"To mono pi8ano pou blepw ston orizonta, eite to 8eloume eite oxi, einai h
> anodos twn Asiatwn sto proskhnio, kai (telika) sthn planhtikh eksousia. Dioti
> oxi mono oi Kinezoi einai kyriolektika oi polyplh8esteroi, kai oi paragwgikoteroi,
> alla kai giati h glwssa kai o politismos tous (asxeta me ton shmerino aytarxismo
> ths koinwnias tous) einai o monos antaksios enos kosmou opou ta "dytika" idewdh
> kai oi dolofonikes synepeies tous exoun pleon ekleipsei, akomh pio pi8ano na
> symbei san apotelesma enos "3ou" megalou polemou (Dyshs / Islam)..."
>
>Den gnwrizw arketa gia na pw me bebaiothta mia gnwmh ep'autou (san pi8anothta).
Allo Kiva, allo Islam.
Filippos
Phidias Bourlas
M.K. wrote:
>
> poia akribos ksylini enepigrafi pinakida ? exo akoysei oti exei brethei
> mia me orfikoys stoixos poy ypologizetai oti einai toy 5.000-6.000 P.X.
>
evav Tourko legovtas tou "emeis re exoume keimeva tou Orfea apo to
5000 p.X.", paravonse kapoia pragmata, eav evvoouse oti bre8nkav
epigrafes toso palaies me Orfika apospasmata, n' estw oti ta Orfika
keimeva eivai toso palaia.
H apoli8wmevn 3ulivn pivakida tou Dispnliou tns Kastorias
(5250 p.X. me C14) exei xaragmeva merika sumbola epavw, ta opoia alloi
8ewrouv ws prwimn grafn, prodromo isws twv grammikwv grafwv, evw alloi
isws upoyiazovtai oti eivai apla snmadia apo tnv polukairia. (De
vomizw omws oti isxuei to teleutaio.) To olo 8ema eivai upo meletn kai
dev uparxouv akoma asfaln sumperasmata. Tnv eu8uvn twv avaskafwv ekei
exei o ka8ngntns Xourmouziadns, o opoios prosfata dnmosieuse eva
sxetiko biblio. 8a probei omws kai se vea dnmosieusn eidika gia tnv
pivakida. Dev 3erw tipota parapavw. (Parablepw kapoiov palabo pou
isxurizetai oti tnv ermnveuse kiolas.)
Episns legetai oti bre8nke kai mia petra sto Dispnlio me paromoia
sumbola. Osov afora alles pavarxaies epigrafes, exw akousei gia
diafora sumbola xaragmeva se braxous p.x. sto Paggaio kai allou.
Gia va 3avagurisoume sta Orfika, prokeitai gia suvolo apospasmatwv
diaforwv proeleusewv apo diafores xrovikes periodous, ta opoia exouv
upostei allepallnles pros8nkes kai alloiwseis kai etsi eivai duskolo,
av oxi aduvato, va bgei akrn. Etsi, polla apo auta ta keimeva pi8avov
graftnkav se vewteres epoxes, p.x. tnv ellnvistikn epoxn, wstoso auto
de snmaivei oti dev apnxouv pavarxaies gvwseis pou metadidovto mesw
twv ierateiwv stous munmevous. As 8umn8oume p.x. tov Hsiodo, o opoios
dnlwvei stn "8eogovia" oti eivai aplws o ekdotns autns, to ergo de tns
ekdosews tou avete8n apo to ierateio twv Mouswv.
Sta Orfika, kai se alla arxaia keimeva, terastia snmasia exei to
epistnmoviko periexomevo tous, kuriws osov afora tnv astrovomia. Dioti
periexovtai polles kai snmavtikotates astrovomikes kai ma8nmatikes
gvwseis. (Kai oxi movo sta keimeva alla p.x. kai stis 8eseis, tov
prosavatolismo kai tnv arxitektovikn twv polewv kai twv mvnmeiwv, kai
sto sumbolismo twv mu8wv, pragmata pou krubouv polla mustika.) P.x.
perigrafovtai astrovomika faivomeva (8eseis asterismwv k.a.), ta opoia
avtistoixouv se sugkekrimeves epoxes. Me basn tetoia stoixeia, oi
pleov akraies apoyeis milouv gia xrovologies opws 11000 p.X., pavtws
toulaxistov 2n xilietia p.X. Apo tous prwtous pou meletnsav to
epistnmoviko periexomevo twv Orfikwv ntav kata tn dekaetia tou '60
o astrovomos K. Xasapns. (Oi paratnrnseis tou e3edw8nsav apo tnv
"Egkuklopaideia tou Hliou".) Akolou8nsav polloi alloi. Prosfata p.x.
eida sto periodiko tou E.M. Polutexveiou ("Purforos" Iav-Feb. 1996) to
keimevo mias omilias pou edwse sto EMP o ka8ngntns tns Akadnmias
A8nvwv Iw. Luritzns me 8ema "Prwimn Ellnvikn Astrovomia". Avtigrafw
merika evdiaferovta:
"Uparxouv afngnseis twv do3ografwv kai twv sxoliastwv tns usterns
arxaiotntas alla kai avafores twv proswkratikwv filosofwv pou
apodidouv sugkritika prongmeves astrovomikes evvoies stous prwimous
Ellnves diavontes kai kuriws stous Orfikous xrovous tns 2ns xilietias
p.X."
"O sumbolismos twv mu8wv krubei avafora se pragmatika gegovota-
gvwseis pou kateixav oi proklasikoi Ellnves. Stn duskolia va
aposumbolopoin8ei o mu8os, pisteuw, apodidovtai prwimoteres
astrovomikes gvwseis stous Aiguptious, Babulwvious, Xaldaious,
Kivezous, Mesopotamious, apo tous ereuvntes tns istorias tns
astrovomias."
"Oi kosmologikes kai kosmogovikes avtilnyeis twv arxaiwv Orfikwv
filosofwv, apotelouv parabolikn ekfrasn kosmologikwv 8ewriwv pou eixav
arxisei va avaptusovtai apo tn 2n xilietia p.X. Epeidn loipov oi
astrovomikes gvwseis eivai proiov makroxrovias empeirias, oi kataboles
tns ellnvikns astrovomias prepei va avagovtai sta ba8n toulaxistov tns
3ns xilietias p.X."
"Merikoi suggrafeis upo8etouv oti oi asterismoi oristnkav basei
prodiagegrammevou sxediou se ka8orismevo topo kai xrovo... O Ovenden
katalngei oti eivai prosavatolismevoi diametrika ws pros tous
ouravious polous tou ~2800 p.X. kai tous apodidei stous Mivwites,
kuriws ws bon8ntikous gia tn vausiploia. Av kai o Dicks ta 8ewrei
apatnla auta, de snmaivei oti n plokn tou mu8ou apotelei laikn rnsn,
alla pi8avov kekalummevn aln8eia n' snmeiwtikn. Prosfates avakaluyeis
pou apodeikvuouv tov prosavatolismo megali8ikwv ktismatwv (Brettavn,
M. Bretavvia, N. Amerikn, Malta, Aiguptos, Ellas) stnv proistorikn
epoxn, evisxusav tnv apoyn oti n paradosn mesw twv allngorikwv mu8wv
avtistoixei se pragmatikes paratnrnseis kai epipedo gvwsewv megalutero
apo o,ti vomizoume emeis snmera... Etsi mporei va upostnrix8ei n apoyn
oti oi Mivwites, kat' e3oxnv 8alassivos laos, eixav f8asei se eva
tetoio, sugkritika, proxwrnmevo stadio astrovomias tnv 3n xilietia
p.X. kai katopiv e3afavis8nke profavws gia va avakaluf8ei kai pali
xilieties argotera."
F.M. --- http://www.dsclab.ntua.gr/~phib
U.G.
Gia tnv "udrauliv", to udrauliko mousiko orgavo tou Ktnsibiou, de
gvwrizw leptomereies. Aplws, se kapoio apo ta biblia tou Xr. Lazou
gia tn mnxavikn kai texvologia twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv, eixa diabasei oti
ta eurnmata auta apo tis avaskafes sto Diov, exouv terastia snmasia
kai avatrepouv ka8ierwmeves apoyeis.
F.M.
Gregory Dandulakis
>Kai pou h8eles bre Grhgorn va poulame ta portokalia?
>Ama 6eis tis *uparxouses* evallaktikes luseis, eivai apeirws xeiroteres
>apo tnv tetelesmevh epilogh.
Etsi, gia na ksupnhsei ta muala: Kai h Iapwnia eixe skata "portokalia"
(kai biomhxanika proionta) amesws meta ton 2o PP, alla ths epitrepsane
oi upereirhnikoi gorriles pou thn elegxan na prostatepsei thn ekkola-
ptomenh oikonomia ths, prin thn upoxrewsoun na anoiksei ta mpoutia ths
se dautous (kai auto merikws).
Grhgorhs
George Alex Stathis
> >keratiatika. Paromoia sunebh epi Karamanlh me tis petrelaikes
> >kriseis, opou ksafnika oi Amerikanoi (mesw twn arabo-doulwn tous)
> >roufagan thn Ellhnikh oikonomia (kai olou tou tritou kosmou). H
> >Ellhnikh oikonomia stamathse na ependuei, se sxesh me prin, giati
> >den uphrxe pleon pleonasma, kai se antistaqmisma trwgame to te-
> >leutaio lipo mas, me tis mazikes uperxrewseis olwn twn megalwn
> >Ellhnikwn biomhxaniwn. Tautoxrona de o Karamanlhs, me skopo na
> >xtisei to neo politiko skhniko, afksane ragdaia ta kaqara eiso-
> >dhmata.
[....]
> Opote to gegovos oti stnv Ella6a merika pragmata 6ev eivai opws ta
> 8eloume, 6ev eivai apotelesma movo tns politikhs twv HPA (pou eivai
> minor aitia, opws 6eixvouv ta parapavw para6eigmata), alla kai tns
> vtopias politikhs twv i8agevwv (kuria aitia).
Ma aploustata h "kyria auth aitia" einai idia me thn allh, nomizw:
Sxedon oles oi hgesies ths Elladas yphrksan _poulhmenes_.
Kai opoios plhrwnei kai agorazei, frontizei kala tous praktores tou,
se _baros_ twn "i8agenwn" opws tous les.
Giati oi Ellhnes opote metanasteuoun kanan "8aumata" kai MONO sth
xwra tous paramenoun "i8ageneis"? Gia ton idio logo pou oi domes
tou kratous kai to idiwtiko "management" sthn Ellada antimetwpizoun
tous Ellhnes _polites_ ws... i8ageneis karagiozhdes...
Giwrgos Sta8hs
Philip Santas
In article <E2LBs...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>...
>>Kai pou h8eles bre Grhgorn va poulame ta portokalia?
>>apo tnv tetelesmevh epilogh.
>
>Etsi, gia na ksupnhsei ta muala: Kai h Iapwnia eixe skata "portokalia"
>(kai biomhxanika proionta) amesws meta ton 2o PP, alla ths epitrepsane
>oi upereirhnikoi gorriles pou thn elegxan na prostatepsei thn ekkola-
>ptomenh oikonomia ths, prin thn upoxrewsoun na anoiksei ta mpoutia ths
>se dautous (kai auto merikws).
Evvoeis n Ella6a va eixe aplws mia sxetika kleisth oikovomia?
Stul Koubas? h Albavias?
Giati stul Iapwvias eivai ligo 6uskolo, logw 6iaforas mege8ous tns agoras.
Epishs n Iapwvia eixe tnv texvogvwsia gia avaptu3h tns biomhxavias tns
(afou eixe baria kai texvologika prohgmevh biomhxavia priv tov polemo).
Akoma kai eav 6ev upoxrewve n EOK tnv Ella6a va parei koivotika proiovta,
pws sto kalo exouv gemisei oi ellnvikes laxavagores me tourkika kai
israhlva portokalia? Mexri kai portokalia apo tnv katexomevh Kupro
eisagouv! Mhv leme twra oti mas ftaiei n EOK gia to oti akoma kai
o Ntevktas trwei apo tnv mesh A8hvaia voikokura...
Filippos
Gregory Dandulakis
>xwres pou 6ev paragouv petrelaio, opws px. Germavia, Gallia, Ollav6ia,
>Austria, Ispavia, kok. kai oxi movo gia tov trito kosmo.
>Omws oles oi parapavw xwres au3hsav to biomhxaviko tous 6uvamiko,
>par'oles tis kriseis
Auta ta lene oi asxetoi h' oi propagandistes.
To ean to kostos mias basikhs eisrohs se mia oikonomia (opws h
energeia) qa epitrepsei anaptuksh h' surriknwsh mias oikonomias
eksartatai apo to epipedo anaptupskhs ths oikonomias hdh.
(To epipedo anaptukshs mias oikonomias eksartatai krisima
apo to kata kefalhn hdh susswreumeno kefalaio. Exeis kata-
strapsei to kefalaio sou se polemo; exeis ligo kata kefalh
kefalaio. Exeis parei tromerh eisroh kefalaiou, opws h Ger-
mania kai to Israhl meta ton polemo; Tote eisai se kalh troxia).
Kai gamw thn poutana mou, den einai ola sth oikonomia grammika.
Akribws to antiqeto, einai eksairetika mh grammika. Mono se
prwth takshs proseggish, th grammikopoihsh, ta pragmata fainon-
tai grammika.
P.x., pare ena dendrilio enos mhnos kai sterhse tou to nero gia
ena mhna. Qa peqanei. Pare ena dendro duo etwn kai efarmose
tou to idio stress. Qa to kseperasei anodeina.
Epi pleon, ta terastia kefalaia ta opoia roufhksan oi petrelaio-
paragwges xwres me tis auqairetes times petrelaiou pou o ntabas
tous Amerikh tous dietakse na baloun (peran twn dhmosiwn qeatrwn),
den emeinan stis petrelaioparagwges xwres. Ta efagan oi Ameri-
kanoi kai ta tsirakia tous me diaforous tropous: (1) H paragwgh
petrelaiou exei sxedeiastei na paragetai se xwres me elaxisto
eswteriko xwro oikonomikhs anaptukshs (p.x. Koubeit, Benezouela,
Mproune'i, Norbhgia), ara to pleonasma eks anagkhs ependuetai
sto ekswteriko (stous ntabades, basika), (2) Oi petrelaioparagwges
xwres rixthkan apo tous ntabades se amoibaious polemous, wste to
pleonasma na paei sta xeria twn ntabadwn mesw panakribwn mono-
pwliaka timomenwn oplwn (p.x. Persia, Irak, Nighria (eswterikoi
polemoi)), (3) Oi ntabades susthmatika lehlatoun to pleonasma
olwn twn petrelaioparagwgwn xwrwn me thn uposthriksh ths diafqo-
ras, h opoia eksagei ta kefalaia se trapezes twn ntabadwn (p.x.
Meksiko, opou h lehlasia twn kefalaiwn tou prwhn proedrou "kse-
kourazetai se trapezes ths Karahbikhs, kai o idios sth Nea Yo-
rkh), (4) Oi ntabades prwsteteuoun tous diefqarmenous kai zhtoun
ws lhtra amuqhta posa (p.x. Saoudikh Arabia kai o polemos tou
persikou).
Telika souma: H Amerikh roufaei (me to mpouri ths sompas) to
pleonasma twn xwrwn tou tritou kosmou, kuriws mesw twn petre-
laiwn (kai kata deuteron twn stratiwtikwn kostwn). To pleonasma
pou roufietai einai tetoio pou kanei ton trito kosmo na einai
katw apo to dieqnes antagwnistiko epipedo apodwshs kefalaiwn.
Ara epipleon mazikh paranomh eksagwgh kefalaiwn epitugxanetai.
Paradeigma: Estw oti enas ependuei stis HPA 100 draxmes.
H _eswterikh_ apodwsh ths oikonomias ths Amerikhs mporei na
apoferei (kata meso oro) apodwsh kefalaiou 6% ethsiws (etsi
einai sth pragmatikothta) gia kapoion pou qelei na ependusei
ta lefta tou ekei. Auto antanakla thn _pragmatikh_ apodwsh
ths Amerikanikhs oikonomias. Twra fantasou oti h antistoixh
apodwsh kefalaiwn sthn Ellada einai 10%. Fainomenika h Ellada
qa prepei na parei tis ependuseis. Am de! H Ellada qa plhrwsei
xaratsi ena 2% ethsiws se opla auqaireths kostologhshs stis HPA.
Ena toulaxiston 3% h Ellada qa plhrwsei stis HPA peso tou mhxa-
nismou lehlasias dia twn petrelaiwn. Teliko apotelesma, h apodwsh
ependusewn kefalaiwn sthn Ellada na einai mono 5%, (sto xrhmatisth-
reio, h' trapeza). Ara h Amerikh fainetai pio apodwtikh. Ara kai
oi 100 draxmes pou enas epixeirhmatias sthn Ellada kataferei na
antlhsei apo thn Ellhnikh oikonomia (apo to usterhma twn argazo-
menwn, olwn), _den_ qa tis ependusei sthn Ellada (ean mporei na
kseperasei tous fragmous sth diarroh kefalaiwn), alla sthn Amerikh!
Malista, kurioi, h Ellada mporei na einai pio apodwtikh sth apodwsh
kefalaiwn apo oti h Amerikh (p.x. giati oi Ellhnes einai diateqime-
noi na plhrwqoun ligotero apo oti oi Amerikanoi), alla, parola auta.
oxi mono kefalia apo thn Amerikh den surreoun sthn Ellada, alla
akribws to antiqeto,- akoma kai to usterhma twn Ellhnwn, pou
didetai me thn pisth oti mporei na beltiwsei thn oikonomia sto
mellon, paei olo _soumpito_ sthn Amerikh (gia na xtustei auth
h nea Rwmh, me to etsi qelw, ton tsampouka ths).
H Ellada einai sto meson, logw gewpolitikhs ths qeshs. Autoi pou
kuriolektika _lehlatountai mexris esxatwn_ einai oi Notio Ameri-
kanoi kai oi Afrikanoi. Aisxrh katastash kuriolektika.
Ta kanonia kanoun thn Amerikh to ti einai shmera. Tipote allo.
Tounantion, h Amerikh einai mia apisteuta grafeiokratikh (idiwtikh
h' dhmosia grafeiokrateia exei elaxisth diafora) kai spatalh xwra,
opou h suntriptikh pleiopshfeia tou ploutou (assets) einai susswreu-
menh se ena 5% ths ploutokratikhs oligarxias, h opoia oligarxia exei
ths rizes uparkshs ths stis _diasundeseis kai elegxou tou kratous
twn HPA_ kai twn mono(oligo)pwliwn tou (akoma kai o Bill Gaytes).
Auta,
Grhgorhs
Philip Santas
In article <32B827...@hol.gr>,
>>
>> Opote to gegovos oti stnv Ella6a merika pragmata 6ev eivai opws ta
>> 8eloume, 6ev eivai apotelesma movo tns politikhs twv HPA (pou eivai
>> minor aitia, opws 6eixvouv ta parapavw para6eigmata), alla kai tns
>> vtopias politikhs twv i8agevwv (kuria aitia).
>
>Ma aploustata h "kyria auth aitia" einai idia me thn allh, nomizw:
>Sxedon oles oi hgesies ths Elladas yphrksan _poulhmenes_.
>Kai opoios plhrwnei kai agorazei, frontizei kala tous praktores tou,
>se _baros_ twn "i8agenwn" opws tous les.
>Giati oi Ellhnes opote metanasteuoun kanan "8aumata" kai MONO sth
>xwra tous paramenoun "i8ageneis"? Gia ton idio logo pou oi domes
>tou kratous kai to idiwtiko "management" sthn Ellada antimetwpizoun
>tous Ellhnes _polites_ ws... i8ageneis karagiozhdes...
Otav lew politikh, evvow kai tous polites, oxi movo tnv kubervhsh.
Ftaive kuriws oi polites, kai oxi movo oi ellnvikes kubervhseis.
Sto e3wteriko kavouv 8aumata, giati 6ev prospa8ouv va bgalouv to mati
tou allou. 3erouv tous kavoves (vomous) tou paixvi6iou, tous 6exovtai, kai
paizouv sumfwva me autous, opote mporouv va ka8orisouv tnv poreia tous
mesa stnv koivwvia pou briskovtai. Ama 6ev thrhsouv tous kavoves, tote
6romo, kai pisw apo kei pou hr8av.
Stnv Ella6a (Ella6istav kata tov Spuro), oi kavoves uparxouv gia va
mhv throuvtai. O ka8evas kavei oti tou katebei, xwris va logariazei
oti uparxei koivwvia gurw tou --prose3e e6w oti o av8rwpos eivai
koivwviko zwo. Bgale to koivwviko, kai sou mevei to zwo (uparxei
bebaia kai allh evallaktikh lush, va eivai 8eos. Omws 10 ekatomuria
8eoi, paraeivai polloi...)
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <E2Mxt...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>...
>>Auto pou les gia to petrelaio 8a eprepe va isxuei gia oles tis
>>xwres pou 6ev paragouv petrelaio, opws px. Germavia, Gallia, Ollav6ia,
>>Austria, Ispavia, kok. kai oxi movo gia tov trito kosmo.
>>Omws oles oi parapavw xwres au3hsav to biomhxaviko tous 6uvamiko,
>>par'oles tis kriseis
>
>Auta ta lene oi asxetoi h' oi propagandistes.
Ta lew omws kai egw :-)
>To ean to kostos mias basikhs eisrohs se mia oikonomia (opws h
>energeia) qa epitrepsei anaptuksh h' surriknwsh mias oikonomias
>eksartatai apo to epipedo anaptupskhs ths oikonomias hdh.
>(To epipedo anaptukshs mias oikonomias eksartatai krisima
>apo to kata kefalhn hdh susswreumeno kefalaio. Exeis kata-
>strapsei to kefalaio sou se polemo; exeis ligo kata kefalh
>kefalaio. Exeis parei tromerh eisroh kefalaiou, opws h Ger-
>mania kai to Israhl meta ton polemo; Tote eisai se kalh troxia).
H Ispavia 6ev phre kefalaio, kai katastrefotav logw Fragko mexri
priv 2 6ekaeties, opou kai eixe i6io peripou kata kefalh eiso6hma
me tnv Ella6a. Shmera bebaia exei avwtero, kai n 6iafora apo tnv
Ella6a au3avei. Mporei n Amerikh va elegxei shmera tnv agora twv
petrelaiwv opws les (kai sumfwvw), alla auto 6ev e3hgei to giati
n Ella6a shmera eivai ouragos se olh tnv EE (me taseis akoma
megaluterhs ptwshs), oute to giati ta ellnvika proiovta 6ev
poulave. Giati auta eivai 8emata eswterikou management, kai
6ev exouv sxesh me tnv Amerikh. Avti8eta, exouv sxesh me tnv EE.
Kai e6w eipes oti n EE ftaiei. Omws, eav 6ev aporrofouse auta ta
proiovta n EE, tote 6ev 8a ta agoraze kaveis --ektos bebaia kai
eav peftame sto biotiko epipe6o tns Boulgarias, opote mporei
va ta agoraze n ...Polwvia kai n Roumavia. Ase to allo, pou n EE
6ivei o6hgies gia vea proiovta, kai stnv Ella6a kobouv 6romous
giati 8elouv va suvexisouv va paragouv to proiov pou 6ev poulaei
kai 8elouv va plhrwvovtai apo pavw!!! (px. ta kapva). Auto lew.
To oti n Amerikh elegxei (kai) ta petrelaia, e3hgei kai 6iaiwvizei
to oti eivai uper6uvamh (stratiwtika toulaxistov), kai oti mporei
va ekmetalleuetai se gevikes grammes alles oikovomies kata boulhsh.
Oxi omws oti eivaikai upeu8uvh gia tnv *sxetikh* ptwsh tns Ella6as
se sxesh me alles xwres pou exouv avalogh moira, oute gia tnv
eswteikh 6omh tns ellnvikhs oikovomias.
Filippos
Gregory Dandulakis
In article <598cdg$l...@vinci.inf.ethz.ch>,
Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>In article <E2LBs...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
>Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>>In article Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>>...
>>>Ama 6eis tis *uparxouses* evallaktikes luseis, eivai apeirws xeiroteres
>>>apo tnv tetelesmevh epilogh.
>>
>>Etsi, gia na ksupnhsei ta muala: Kai h Iapwnia eixe skata "portokalia"
>>(kai biomhxanika proionta) amesws meta ton 2o PP, alla ths epitrepsane
>>oi upereirhnikoi gorriles pou thn elegxan na prostatepsei thn ekkola-
>>ptomenh oikonomia ths, prin thn upoxrewsoun na anoiksei ta mpoutia ths
>>se dautous (kai auto merikws).
>
>Evvoeis n Ella6a va eixe aplws mia sxetika kleisth oikovomia?
>Stul Koubas? h Albavias?
>Giati stul Iapwvias eivai ligo 6uskolo, logw 6iaforas mege8ous tns agoras.
>Epishs n Iapwvia eixe tnv texvogvwsia gia avaptu3h tns biomhxavias tns
>(afou eixe baria kai texvologika prohgmevh biomhxavia priv tov polemo).
O gnwstos Filippas. Egw eipa gia "prostasia ekkolaptomenhs", autos
to gurnaei bolika sto "kleisth oikonomia".
H Iapwnia eixe kleisth thn agora ths gia eisagwges sugkekrimenwn
biomhxanikwn proiontwn, wste na dwsei sthn egxwria biomhxania
xwro anapnohs apo ton hdh aneptugmeno ekswteriko antagwnismo,
enw eixe plhrh prosbash sthn agora twn HPA, gia oso hqele kai
opote hqele.
Ksexnas oti h Ellada mexri to 1973 eixe ragdaia anaptussomenh
oikonomia. Mia oi petrelaikes kriseis, kai mia h lailapa ths
EOK, kuriolektika ksekanan thn ellhnikh oikonomia. Akomh mexri
shmera, to upsos twn sunolikwn ethsiwn biomhxanikwn ependusewn se
staqeres times den exei ftasei to upsos ependusewn tou etous 1973.
23 xronia kai h biomhxania pleei ta olisqia, anti gia anaptuksh.
Oson afora ta kinhtra ependusewn apo to kratos; Apeira. To
kostos ergasias; Meta thn dekaetia 1974-1984, pou eide kapoia
aukshs (se staqeres times), alla pou pote den kseperase alles
omoeideis agores (opws ths Portogalias), exei kanei pali
susthmatikh boutia boutia ektote. Bebaia oi texnokrates ths
EOK legane prin mpoume, "pou pate ksupolutoi st' agkaqia; h
Ellada den einai etoimh na mpei". Alla o Karamanlhs, me thn
kaqodhghsh tou ntaba Amerika, kai thn sumfwnh gnwmh (sthn pra-
ksh, peran twn rhtoriwn) twn upoloipwn EOKikwn, ntougrou gia
thn "agora twn 200 ekatomuriwn plousiwn". Kai to kako mas flaro.
Qa elega gia alles mikres xwres, sth sfaira tou Amerikanikou ntaba,
pou anaptuxqhkan xwris na anoiksoiun diaplata ta mpoutia tous sto
ekswteriko emporio, kai oi opoies eixan plhqusmo mikrotero apo
ton Ellhniko. Sigkampourh, Norbhgia, Austria, Elbetia, klp. Be-
baia h kaqe mia exei tis idiaiterothtes ths, alla to sumperasma
einai kaqaro: To na ksepoulhqeis eks oloklhrou se timh eukairias
se enan megalo oikomiko ntaba (opws h EOK), enw eisai mikrh kai
asqenikh akoma, den einai oute kan kaloutsikh lush.
Grhgorhs
Gregory Dandulakis
In article Spiros Triantafyllopou <stri...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
...
>Exeis mou fainetai thn entypwsh oti "Oi Amerikanoi" (tm) den kanoun
>tipota allo para na ftiaxnoun doloplokies gia xwres pou den exoun
>kaqolou shmasia, oute ideologikh (Cuba, Nicaragua) oute geopolitikh,
>oute oikonomikh. An to Elladistan eitan, p.x., Kuwait, tha to
>katalabaina. Alla den einai. Auto bebaia den stamata thn Intelligensia
>apo ta sxolia ths...
Agorina mou, Spurako. Oi HPA den ftiaxnoun doloplokies gia thn Ella-
dista mono. Kanoun xontres doloplokies pou ksezoumizoune tous pantes,
mikrous kai megalous. Opws leei kai h paroimia "fasouli to fasouli,
gemizei to sakouli". Pragmati, h Ellada shmera den h Ellada tou 1946,
gia na apaithsei oloklhro dogma Trouman to tsalapathma ths. Arkei h
genikh strahgikh ksezoumhmatos, petrelaia-opla, kai gia na ginei ligo
pio epilektikh h politikh twn HPA (fine-tuning), e, tote pairnoume kai
kanena ksoplhma oplo tsampe', e, exoume kai eidiko logariasmo ths
Ame-\rikanikhs kubrhnhs me ton opoio ellhnikes epixeirhseis mporoun
na xrhmatodothqoun ekstra-spesial ean kanoun ependuseis sta Balkania
se sunergasia me amerikanikes etaireies. Auta ta "liga" mono. Si-
goura den eimaste Israhl gia na pairnoume apo to 1948 "epixorhghsh"
xiliwn dolariwn ana kefalh kat'etos (aksia dolariou 1970), ara den
exoume "ideologiko" logo toso shmantiko, alla den eimaste kai "pro-
bata".
Nani nani, to mwro mou kanei...zzzzzzz ("intelligentia" gkloup!)
Grhgorhs
Vasilios Psarras
On Thu, 19 Dec 1996 00:39:04 GMT, gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory
Dandulakis) wrote in article <E2Mxt...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>:
>Paradeigma: Estw oti enas ependuei stis HPA 100 draxmes.
>H _eswterikh_ apodwsh ths oikonomias ths Amerikhs mporei na
>apoferei (kata meso oro) apodwsh kefalaiou 6% ethsiws (etsi
>einai sth pragmatikothta) gia kapoion pou qelei na ependusei
>ta lefta tou ekei. Auto antanakla thn _pragmatikh_ apodwsh
>ths Amerikanikhs oikonomias. Twra fantasou oti h antistoixh
>apodwsh kefalaiwn sthn Ellada einai 10%. Fainomenika h Ellada
>qa prepei na parei tis ependuseis. Am de! H Ellada qa plhrwsei
>xaratsi ena 2% ethsiws se opla auqaireths kostologhshs stis HPA.
>Ena toulaxiston 3% h Ellada qa plhrwsei stis HPA peso tou mhxa-
>nismou lehlasias dia twn petrelaiwn.
Me to sumpa8io re Grhgorh pou parembainw, alla pia trapeza xrhsimopoieis sthn
Ellada :-) Giati ekei pou paw egw otan mou poun oti 8a mou dwsoun 10% to xrono,
otan balw 100drx sto telos tou xronou mou dinoun 110. Kai an dhlwsw kai monimos
katoikos e3wterikou einai kai aforologhta.
>Ta kanonia kanoun thn Amerikh to ti einai shmera. Tipote allo.
Auto pali den to katatalabainw. H Amerikh to kairo tou Reagan eixe Amuntikes
dapanes $400 disekatomuria. Shmera exei amuntikes dapanes ligoteres apo $150.
Symfwna me thn logikh sou 8a eprepe na eixe patwsei.
>Tounantion, h Amerikh einai mia apisteuta grafeiokratikh (idiwtikh
>h' dhmosia grafeiokrateia exei elaxisth diafora) kai spatalh xwra,
Oxi pantws se sxesh me thn Ellada.
>opou h suntriptikh pleiopshfeia tou ploutou (assets) einai susswreu-
>menh se ena 5% ths ploutokratikhs oligarxias, h opoia oligarxia exei
>ths rizes uparkshs ths stis _diasundeseis kai elegxou tou kratous
>twn HPA_ kai twn mono(oligo)pwliwn tou (akoma kai o Bill Gaytes).
Enw oi Latshdes kai oi Bardinogiannhdes kai ta sundikata oloi mazi enwmenoi
agwnizontai "gia to kalo tou topou" kai thn proo8hsh ths eleu8erhs agoras.
>Auta,
>Grhgorhs
Vasilios Psarras
George Baloglou
In article <58k45e$p...@vinci.inf.ethz.ch> san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
writes:
>In article <Pine.SV4.3.95.961210151730.17136A-100000@swan>,
>K.Tsembelis <kt...@ukc.ac.uk> wrote:
>>[...] Afto den simainei oti i
>>klasikh mousikh den einai kalh. Tounantion tha elega. Den ehoume omos to
>>dikaioma na ksehname tin koultoura mas. Apla ehoume paramelisei polla
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>pragmata kai kirios tin mousikh mas. Distihos h neoellhnikh mousikh
>>apoteleitai apo tsiftetelia kai tourkikous amanedes ( ohi ton papason
>>pados). Pados to gegonos oti oi psalmoi pou akoume stin ekklisia ehoun
>>kapoia koina stihia me tous amanedes ton tourkon mallon simainei oti akoma
>>kai oi Othomanoi epireastikan apo tin Byzantinh mousikh.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>To avti8eto.
>O soultavos mallov epeballe tis protimhseis tou sto repertorio tns
>or8o6o3hs ekklhsias, se baros tns oopias6hpote byzavtivhs mousikhs
>etsi wste auth va 3exastei plhrws apo tnv o8wmavikh epikrateia.
>Auto leme.
>Sumfwvoi oti n byzavtivh mousikh prepei va epirrease tn 6utikh mousikh.
>3ekivwvtas omws apo auto mporoume va 6oume pws peripou emoiaze
>n byzavtivh mousikh. Kamia sxesh me tous amave6es.
Bphka telika ligo xpovo va avtigpayw anocnacmata ano to ap8po tou Milos
Velimirovic "Byzantine musical traditions among the Slavs" (in John J.
Yiannias' "The Byzantine tradition after the fall of Constantinople",
University Press of Virginia, 1991 (pp. 95-105)), to onoio pixvei ligo
fws ce kanoia 8emata, xwpis va 3eka8apizei to zhthma. Eidikwtepa, kai
ce cxech me npagmata nou eixa gpayei npiv mhves ce allh cuzhthch,
blenoume oti h enippoh ths Duchs ce oti anomeive ano thv Buzavtivh
napadoch unhp3e, otav bebaia bphke npocfopo edafos, ba8uteph auths twv
O8wmavwv: dev unapxei movo h ni8avh "Apabikh" enippoh ctis ekklhcies
mas, alla kai h Dutikh enippoh ctis Pwccikes; akomh, av o Coultavos
h8ele ovtws va eniballei kanoia npagmata, giati movo ce mas kai--blene
napakatw--oxi kai ctous Cepbous?
[Auto to ap8po eixa apxicei va to gpafw npiv 1+ ebdomada alla enece to
cucthma thv wpa ths avtigpafhs (opgh Qeou?) kai meta dev bphka tov
xpovo va to 3avagpayw; Filinne ctelvw avtigpafo ctov Eu8umio alla kai
ce ceva, mia kai dev 3epw av 8a npolabeis va to diabaceis.]
************************************************************************
There are at present no fewer than fifty musical manuscripts of Russian
origin and with musical notation written between the eleventh and
fifteenth centuries. While this notation is clearly Byzantine in origin,
there is at present no way in which these melodies can be reconstructed
and brought to life. Given the present state of scholarship in this area,
only some fragments of melodies may be transcribed, and there are enormous
difficulties that have to be overcome before this music can be heard again.
There is some evidence that in the fifteenth century the process of change
had begun, and by the sixteenth century had attained a new stage, in which
a notation based on different principles from those of Byzantium came to
be used. Even so, this notation becomes readable only in the seventeenth
century. By that time, however, the melodies, while observing occasionally
some patterns of structure that may be of Byzantine origin, display melodic
outlines that strongly suggest the penetration of folk-song tunes into
liturgical practice. This interrelationship of folk and liturgical music
requires further study before anything more definitive can be stated.
...........................................................................
Subsequent developments of Russian religious music in the eighteenth
century reflected musical practices that flourished because of the
ever-stronger presence of foreign musicians, particularly Italian
opera composers, and the schooling of Russians in Western Europe. The
polyphonic music that emerged in Russia in the mid-seventeenth century
gradually received a strong dose of Italian musical influence and was
marked by the formation of an Italianate musical style, especially
during the rule of Catherine the Great. This was the time of the growth
of music for several choirs, each of which consisted of several parts
(i.e., voices). Russian music came to be known for its use of deep
basses and harmonic singing. The latter was absent in the Byzantine
musical tradition. Byzantine chant from the outset was monophonic,
consisting of a single melodic line. It is curious to note in passing
that at the beginning of the twentieth century the inheritors of
Byzantine musical traditions in Greece felt impelled to try to adopt
Russian polyphonic models for experimentation in choral singing, a
practice that is frowned upon by the majority of Greeks and is to
this day restricted in Greece to a few churches only.
My reference to monophonic chant as being *the* Byzantine way of
singing requires some additional comment. The term *monophonic*
(i.e., singing in unison) properly applies to the type of practice
found in the West in Gregorian chant. Yet as anyone who has attended
a service in a Greek church knows, in addition to a melody there is
a drone that the choir intones and chants, while on top of that drone
a melody is being woven. The drone is known as *ison*. What is the age
of the "ison" and of its use? The best answer is, we do not know! The
"ison" was never written down, and the earliest record in score is to
be found only in the nineteenth century. Yet witnesses heard it in the
sixteenth century: Martin Crusius, in his *Turcograeciae libri octo*
(Basel, 1584), mentions reports of having heard the drone sound. It
is a practice that parallels some folk music in more than one part of
the world, suggesting that it is not an isolated phenomenon. Further
investigation is needed into the possibility of the use of the drone
in periods when no written records support its existence.
.........................................................................
Serbian musical manuscripts of the eighteenth century still reflect
a close adherence to Byzantine musical principles. Then suddenly, in
the nineteenth century, the Serbian chant tunes collected by such a
scholar as Stevan Mokranjak seem to show no resemblance whatsoever
to Byzantine models. To make things even more curious, it was while
studying these "new" melodies, as I call them, that Egon Wellesz
discovered the principle of formulaic structure and then applied
it to the examination of the Byzantine tradition. Thus Wellesz
established the basic premises for the investigation of Byzantine
music. In a way this discovery by Wellesz, made during the period
of the First World War, based on his examination of Mokranjac's
edition of the *Osmoglasnik* (i.e., the Serbian *Oktoechos*), was a
step toward the closing of a circle that begun with the penetration
of Byzantine influence into Slavic culture. The latter, as we know
now, was shaped in a multitude of ways by Byzantine models.
It is a curious irony of history that the investigation and study
of Byzantine music and its practice were neglected and ignored for
so long by Western European scholars, and that the rediscovery of
some of the basic and truly essential aspects of this musical
tradition would take place, and find its key, in the study of the
music of one of the inheritors of the Byzantine tradition other
than Greece. It was in a country the culture of which was an
offshoot of Byzantium's that the Byzantine way of thinking and of
putting ideas together had been retained as the guiding principle.
Needless to say, we are still studying this process of cultural
adoption and hope to understand it even better in the years to come.
[From Milos Velimirovic's "Byzantine musical traditions among the Slavs]
************************************************************************
Blenoume dhladh oti o "amaves" (ison) unapxei ctis Ellhvikes alla oxi kai
ctis Cepbikes ekklhcies, ki' auto oxi logw, as noume, Pwccikhs enippohs;
akomh, h Pwccikh yalmwdia mnopei va akougetai kalutepa ce kanoia autia
oxi giati eivai kovtutepa cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Ellhvikh, alla logw
Dutikhs enippohs (kai npocmi3hs Aciatikwv, Buzavtivwv kai Dutikwv
ctoixeiwv, tolmw va npoc8ecw). Auta ano kanoiov oxi nolu moucikofilo!
George Baloglou
(broadcasting from the southeastern shores of Lake Ontario)
"H Pwmavia ki' av enepacev av8ei kai fepei ki' allo"
"Even though it faded, Hellenism blooms and branches out again"
George Alex Stathis
Gregory Dandulakis wrote:
[...]
> Qa elega gia alles mikres xwres, sth sfaira tou Amerikanikou ntaba,
> pou anaptuxqhkan xwris na anoiksoiun diaplata ta mpoutia tous sto
> ekswteriko emporio, kai oi opoies eixan plhqusmo mikrotero apo
> ton Ellhniko. Sigkampourh, Norbhgia, Austria, Elbetia, klp. Be-
> baia h kaqe mia exei tis idiaiterothtes ths, alla to sumperasma
> einai kaqaro: To na ksepoulhqeis eks oloklhrou se timh eukairias
> se enan megalo oikomiko ntaba (opws h EOK), enw eisai mikrh kai
> asqenikh akoma, den einai oute kan kaloutsikh lush.
>
> Grhgorhs
Omologw oti _pote_ mou den eixa dei etsi to 8ema, kai einai _poly_
synarpastikes oi apopseis kai ta stoixeia pou para8etei o Grhgorhs.
Ta fylaksa ola, kai 8ewrw tis analyseis tou (opws kai twn allwn
syzhthtwn) apo tis _poiotikwteres_ pou emfanisthkan sto <soc.culture.greek>.
Omws...
Ekeino pou adynatw na katalabw einai... poies 8atan oi _alles_
epiloges. Mpros gkremos kai pisw EOK, dhladh...
TI na ekane h Ellada, san enallaktikh lysh???
Isws, se anti8esh me tis alles xwres (pou anaferei o Grhgorhs)
h Ellada eixe ypostei polla plhgmata _ameshs_ diabrwshs apo f8oropoia
stoixeia (apostolh Ellhnikwn kefalaiwn apo businessmen sthn Elbetia klp),
kai htan se megalo ba8mo anikanh na antepeksel8ei sta problhmata ths
outws h allws. DEN to gnwrizw...
Fysika kai den ftaine oi "i8ageneis". Ftaine oi oligarxikes kastes
pou (enw ksezoumisan thn Ellada), mas ekanan kai "kompleksikous", oti
dh8en ftaiei "o Ellhnas", pou "einai karagiozhs", k.o.k.
Ki autes oi "kastes" perilambanoun to Latsh (pou ekane ta lefta tou
apo... plwta mpordella gia germanous stratiwtes ton kairo ths katoxhs)
ton Kokkalh (pou ksexarbalwse entelws ta thlefwna ths Elladas gia na
bgalei ta prwta megala kerdh tou), to Bardinogiannh, k.o.k.
(Eytyxws pou eimaste pio eley8eroi sthn ekfrash apo tous Amerikanous.
Mporw kai ta lew auta xwris fobo na mpw se maures listes, klp...)
Giwrgos
Philip Santas
In article <59c4no$r...@panix.com>, George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
> san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>
>>O soultavos mallov epeballe tis protimhseis tou sto repertorio tns
>>or8o6o3hs ekklhsias, se baros tns oopias6hpote byzavtivhs mousikhs
>>etsi wste auth va 3exastei plhrws apo tnv o8wmavikh epikrateia.
>>Auto leme.
>>Sumfwvoi oti n byzavtivh mousikh prepei va epirrease tn 6utikh mousikh.
>>3ekivwvtas omws apo auto mporoume va 6oume pws peripou emoiaze
>>n byzavtivh mousikh. Kamia sxesh me tous amave6es.
>
>Bphka telika ligo xpovo va avtigpayw anocnacmata ano to ap8po tou Milos
>Velimirovic "Byzantine musical traditions among the Slavs" (in John J.
>Yiannias' "The Byzantine tradition after the fall of Constantinople",
>University Press of Virginia, 1991 (pp. 95-105)), to onoio pixvei ligo
>fws ce kanoia 8emata, xwpis va 3eka8apizei to zhthma. Eidikwtepa, kai
>ce cxech me npagmata nou eixa gpayei npiv mhves ce allh cuzhthch,
>blenoume oti h enippoh ths Duchs ce oti anomeive ano thv Buzavtivh
>napadoch unhp3e, otav bebaia bphke npocfopo edafos, ba8uteph auths twv
>O8wmavwv: dev unapxei movo h ni8avh "Apabikh" enippoh ctis ekklhcies
>mas, alla kai h Dutikh enippoh ctis Pwccikes; akomh, av o Coultavos
>h8ele ovtws va eniballei kanoia npagmata, giati movo ce mas kai--blene
>napakatw--oxi kai ctous Cepbous?
Diabasa to ar8ro, omws 6ev leei tipota pou va avtikrouei auta pou
eipa. Milhse gia epirroh tns 6ushs stnv rwsikh mousikh tov 18o
aiwva. Ma 6ev milw gia tov 18o aiwva, milw gia tnv mousikh pio priv,
15o, 16o, 17o aiwva. Ama pareis tis mousikes gia "meditation"
pou eixav oi lativoi tov 15o-16o aiwva, kai pas meta stov Vivaldi
kai tov 17o aiwva, 6ev blepeis allages stis formes. Aplws allages
stnv poluplokothta kai pio polu emfash stnv armovia.
Ara n mousikh 6ev alla3e basika.
Twra, to basiko 8ema eivai oti oi *stauroforoi* otav hr8av stnv
Kwv/polh, emeivav magemevoi apo tis mousikh pou psalotav stnv Ag. Sofia.
Milame gia *stauroforous*, olh n sara kai n mara, mazi bebaia kai
ligh apo intelligencia tns epoxhs. Gia va meivouv oloi autoi magemevoi,
8a pei oti n mousikes formes tous htav gvwstes, aplws kalutera
taktopoinmeves kai ektelesmeves. Pare shmera evav meso eurwpaio ka8hghth
se pavepisthmio, upallhlo, agroth, magazatora, barman, gkarsovi, a8lhth,
evav meso eurwpaio alhtampoura, pare opoiov 8es, kai baltous va akousouv
tous pio kalous amave6es pou exeis. Des pws 8a avti6rasouv meta apo 10
lepta. Ka8e allo apo mageia 8a viwsouv. Stnv kaluterh periptwsh 8a sou
pouv va 6eis ti paizei to ra6io (uparxouv bebaia kai merikes e3aireseis
pou 8a se rwthsouv pws kai sou aresei n iv6ikh mousikh!).
Epeita exoume tnv metavasteush apo to Buzavtio stn Dush, opws kai tnv
ekpai6eush pollwv lativwv stnv Kwv/polh. Polloi Byzavtivoi i6rusav sxoles
stnv Italia tns avagevvhshs. Exoume epiroes se filosofia, texves (tis liges
toulaxistov pou kataferav va avte3ouv sto Byzavtio), grammata, kai mou les
oti to oti 6ev uparxei 6eigma amave stnv Eurwph eivai epei6h epirrease
n Dush tnv Rwsia?????
Filippos
YG. Apavthseis ektos apo to net, me email epishs, giati 8a eimai ektos
upologistwv gia merikes meres.
Angelos Karageorgiou
In article <59angs$8...@vinci.inf.ethz.ch>,
Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>Sto e3wteriko kavouv 8aumata, giati 6ev prospa8ouv va bgalouv to mati
>tou allou. 3erouv tous kavoves (vomous) tou paixvi6iou, tous 6exovtai, kai
>paizouv sumfwva me autous, opote mporouv va ka8orisouv tnv poreia tous
>mesa stnv koivwvia pou briskovtai. Ama 6ev thrhsouv tous kavoves, tote
Mou fenete oti den exeis doulepsei gia tous ellines stin NY, einai oti xeirotero
exei na deiksei i anthropotita ston planiti, Gia ayto allwste den ftourane
oi ellines oute mesa oute eksw.
To giati einai aplo, oloi autoi oi apogonoi toy aristoteli , exoun
grammeni ti despinhs koultoura sta arxidia tous, aki to mono pou tous endia-
ferei einai ti tha fane/pioune.
Einai poly aplo , pigainete sti spilia i se opoidipote skiladiko kai
deite ti lefta ksodeyontai, ase poy oi xoroi einai kathara anatolitikoi (blepe
othomanika katalipa ,adikaiologita). Twra pare tous idious anthrwpous kai pes
tous na dwsoun to 1/10 aftwn pou gamisan sta bouzoukia gia as poume mia
bibliothiki. Thelete na sa pw tin apantisi ? "Ainte re traba po kei pera"
Gia ayto kai o filipos exei dikio , kai o spyros, all o dandoulakis
o askos kala tha kanei na ksipnisei kai na katalabei oti an brei katouro sto
krebati tou , den irthe o amerikanos na ton katourisei , alla mallon o idios
kappia ladia ekane :-)
--
--
In the internet, nothing works all of the time !
Philip Santas
In article <32BAD0...@hol.gr>,
>h Ellada eixe ypostei polla plhgmata _ameshs_ diabrwshs apo f8oropoia
>stoixeia (apostolh Ellhnikwn kefalaiwn apo businessmen sthn Elbetia klp),
>kai htan se megalo ba8mo anikanh na antepeksel8ei sta problhmata ths
>outws h allws. DEN to gnwrizw...
>Fysika kai den ftaine oi "i8ageneis". Ftaine oi oligarxikes kastes
>pou (enw ksezoumisan thn Ellada), mas ekanan kai "kompleksikous", oti
>dh8en ftaiei "o Ellhnas", pou "einai karagiozhs", k.o.k.
Malista, 6ev ftaive oi i8ageveis, ftaiei to oti uparxei avtagwvismos!
Malista kurioi, kofte tov avtagwvismo, kai 8a 6eite ti wraia
pou 8a eimaste! Me liga logia, as pe8avouv oloi oi alloi (Tourkoi,
Slaboi, Amerikavoi, Fragkoi, Aggloi, Giapwvezoi, Rwsoi), kai otav
meivoume movoi mas, 6ev 8a exoume avtagwvismo, olh n agora 8a eivai
6ikh mas! Tote va 6eite ti wraia 8a pervame!
Se eva 6romo pou trexeis movos sou, sigoura, termatizeis prwtos
kai opote 8es, akoma kai av exeis kavei 10 vargile6es.
Otav omws trexouv kai oi alloi vtaglara6es, pou exouv perasei olh
tous tn zwh kavovtas propovhsh, tote mporei kai va se pathsouv.
Oi alloi eivai h kolash mou (Sartre).
Kai oi i8ageveis to exouv kavei pipila (o Sartre htav apo tous e3upvous
kommouvistes bebaia, kai apo ta megala kefalia, kai eutuxws n
i6eologia tous 6ev epirrease polu tnv filosofia tou. H 6ustuxia eivai
va pisteueis kai va avamasas xazoxaroumeva kommouvistika suv8hmata xwris
kav va eisai evas apo autous).
Filippos
YG. Xrovia polla se olous, kai opoies apavthseis parakalw me email, pera
apo to net.
Philip Santas
In article <E2oE6...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>H Iapwnia eixe kleisth thn agora ths gia eisagwges sugkekrimenwn
>biomhxanikwn proiontwn, wste na dwsei sthn egxwria biomhxania
>xwro anapnohs apo ton hdh aneptugmeno ekswteriko antagwnismo,
>enw eixe plhrh prosbash sthn agora twn HPA, gia oso hqele kai
>opote hqele.
Wraia, h Iapwvia, pou 6ev tns epetrepse o vtabatzhs tns va exei
6iko tns strato, phge kai eipe stov vtabatzh ths oti 8elei va
exei 6ikia ths egxwria biomhxavia, kai epishs, plhrh prosbash
epavw tou, mesa tou, klp, klp.
Kai twra mas les oti kai n Ella6a 8a mporouse va to kavei auto,
omws 6ev to ekave giati 6ev tnv afhse o vtabatzhs tns (pou av
6ev kavw la8os eivai o i6ios me autov tns Iapwvias).
Mas 6ouleueis bre Grhgorh? Etsi kaveis avaluseis?
Poios Iapwvas 8a agoraze amerikaviko proiov meta to telos tou
polemou? Se mia tetoia xwra, me to megalutero e8vikistiko ais8hma
stov kosmo, se mia xwra pou oi amerikavoi eri3av uo atomikes bombes,
se mia xwra pou o autokratoras 8ewreitai 8eos (oute o Papas
6ev eivai etsi), se mia xwra pou oi hlikiwmevoi perasav *olh*
tous tn zwh trwgovtas movo eva tasaki ruzi tnv hmera (h gevia
6nl pou eftia3e olh tn biomhxavia tns Iapwvias), se mia tetoia xwra
rwtas giati 6ev ekave eisagwges biomhxavikwv pro"iovtwv, kai giati
n Ella6a 6ev ekave to i6io??? Ma oi Iapwves sfiggave to louri epi
40 xrovia, evw stnv Ella6a exei 3exulwsei apo ta prokoilia, ase
6nl pou to mualo twv av8rwpwv exei givei 3ugki, kai 6ev 8elei
va akousei koubevta gia sfi3imo.
Sou to eipa kai sto 3avalew. Exeis 6ei poia ta aithmata twv Ellnvev
pou apergouv shmera? 8umasai tis "epavastaseis" twv flwrwv priv
2 xrovia otav ekleivav to Syvtagma giati ta skula6ika eprepe va
kleisouv stis 2 kai 4 ta xaramata? Blepeis ti kavouv oi agrotes
shmera kai ti paraloges apaithseis exouv, alla kai ti ama3ia
o6hgouv?
Exouv ola auta kammia sxesh me tnv Iapwvia?
Kales oi 8ewries peri vtabatzh6wv (kai arketa plhroforiakes se
gevikes grammes), alla va koitazoume kai tis porves, 6ev eivai
oles i6ies. Merikes kataferav kai pavtreuthkav tov vtabatzh, alles
avoi3av 6iko tous mpour6elo, alles omws tov pairvouv akoma eite
giati 6ev exouv mualo, eite giati tous aresei va tov pairvouv
>Ksexnas oti h Ellada mexri to 1973 eixe ragdaia anaptussomenh
>oikonomia. Mia oi petrelaikes kriseis, kai mia h lailapa ths
>EOK, kuriolektika ksekanan thn ellhnikh oikonomia.
Oxi 6ev to 3exasa. To ti egive meta to '74 eivai gvwsto omws.
Oxi pia ergasia gia to kefalaio, movo va trwme kai va pivoume, kai
as plhrwsouv alloi. Auta pou les esu twra, auta legave autoi tote,
h peribohth gevia tou polutexveiou (wx to mati mou, oloi 3afvika mas
bghkav hrwes tou polutexveiou!), mas prh3ave ta oumpala, kai va
ti plhrwvouv shmera.
Kai mia kai milas gia tis petrelaikes kriseis, isa-isa pou eivai
kalutera va eisai stnv EOK avti ap'e3w, wste va mhv viwseis tnv krish
toso polu. Ama eisai se karu6otsouflo, to pio mikro kuma 8a se tarakouvisei
xwris oikto, ama eisai omws se eva megalo ploio, mporei mev va
kaveis tnv Kalioph, omws 6ev se kouva oute fourtouva.
3exases tnv trapezikh krish stnv Ella6a perusi? Xwris germavika marka,
oi kata8eseis twv goviwv sou 8a htav pasatempos shmera.
Filippos
YG. Opoies apavthseis, parakalw kai me email, giati 8a leipw merikes
meres.
Philip Santas
In article <59efi0$8...@davinci.netaxis.com>,
Angelos Karageorgiou <ang...@netaxis.com> wrote:
>Philip Santas <san...@inf.ethz.ch> wrote:
>>Sto e3wteriko kavouv 8aumata, giati 6ev prospa8ouv va bgalouv to mati
>>tou allou. 3erouv tous kavoves (vomous) tou paixvi6iou, tous 6exovtai, kai
>>paizouv sumfwva me autous, opote mporouv va ka8orisouv tnv poreia tous
>>mesa stnv koivwvia pou briskovtai. Ama 6ev thrhsouv tous kavoves, tote
>
>Mou fenete oti den exeis doulepsei gia tous ellines stin NY, einai oti xeirotero
>exei na deiksei i anthropotita ston planiti, Gia ayto allwste den ftourane
>oi ellines oute mesa oute eksw.
Oxi, stnv NYC 6oulepsa gia tnv IBM, oxi se estiatorio :-)
Filippos
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Gregory Dandulakis (gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: Agorina mou, Spurako. Oi HPA den ftiaxnoun doloplokies gia thn Ella-
: dista mono. Kanoun xontres doloplokies pou ksezoumizoune tous pantes,
Grhgorh mou... Aporw pws koimasai to vrady me to AK47 sto maksilari,
to shortwave radio me G Gordon Liddy kai allous ethnikistes...
Gia pes mou Grhgorh, ante kai katafere h Amerikh to world domination.
Thn Iapwnia pws kai den thn katafernoume na agorazei proionta Amerikanika?
To ergostasio ths General Motors giati ekleise sto Marousi meta 2 xronia
leitourgeias? Opws lene kai oi ithageneis, "Do not attribute to
malice what can be attributed to stupidity". Den diafwnw rizika mazi
sou, alla den pisteuw oti uparxei kai synomosia (Trilateral, New
World Order, klp :-)).
: mikrous kai megalous. Opws leei kai h paroimia "fasouli to fasouli,
: gemizei to sakouli". Pragmati, h Ellada shmera den h Ellada tou 1946,
: gia na apaithsei oloklhro dogma Trouman to tsalapathma ths. Arkei h
: genikh strahgikh ksezoumhmatos, petrelaia-opla, kai gia na ginei ligo
To thema twn oplwn twra. Ta petrelaia den poly diafwnw, an kai h krish
twn petreleiwn kontepse na fountarh thn Amerikanikh autokinhtoviomhxania.
H krish Tourkias kai Elladas yparxei edw kai 400 xronia, kai an oti
diavazeis sto soc.culture.{greek,turkish} einai indication, den
xreiazetai Amerikanous gia diaiwnish. To idio kai se polles alles
periptwseis pou h Amerikh poulaei opla kai stous dyo. Mhpws tha
eimaste diaforetikoi an agorazame Mirage kai Panavia kai oi Tourkoi
Rwsika? Den nomizw... Den vohthsan sthn lysh tou provlhmatos,
fysika, alla kai den to ekanan (poly) xeirotero.
: pio epilektikh h politikh twn HPA (fine-tuning), e, tote pairnoume kai
: kanena ksoplhma oplo tsampe', e, exoume kai eidiko logariasmo ths
: Ame-\rikanikhs kubrhnhs me ton opoio ellhnikes epixeirhseis mporoun
: na xrhmatodothqoun ekstra-spesial ean kanoun ependuseis sta Balkania
: se sunergasia me amerikanikes etaireies. Auta ta "liga" mono. Si-
Swsto.
: goura den eimaste Israhl gia na pairnoume apo to 1948 "epixorhghsh"
: xiliwn dolariwn ana kefalh kat'etos (aksia dolariou 1970), ara den
: exoume "ideologiko" logo toso shmantiko, alla den eimaste kai "pro-
: bata".
Alla den exoume kai X ekatomyria Evraious sthn Amerikh oi opoioi
aneksarthta an patane se Synagwgh yposthrizoun to Lobby. Emeis,
zwh na exoume, oute lobby then exoume :-)
: Nani nani, to mwro mou kanei...zzzzzzz ("intelligentia" gkloup!)
Kai prosoxh sth skandalh :-)
Den diafwnoume rizika; apla esy pisteveis oti prokeitai peri
makroxronias synomosias, kai egw pisteuw oti aplws *ginetai*.
Tha pisteua synomosia an h Ellada htan, px, kommounistiko kratos
kai uphrxe ideologia sth mesh (Regan klp) h kapoio petrelaio,
geopolitikh, klp. Alla ta teleutaia 20-30 xronia tipota tetoio,
kai par ola auta ta idia.
Epishs, esy den rixneis kanena sfalma sthn Ellada kai sthn
Ellhnikh nootropia... Gia ola ftaine ta plokamia twn ksenwn.
Den ginetai etsi, Grhgorh. Den einai MONO oi Amerikanoi, h
MONO h EOK, h MONO ta skyladika. Oloi ftaine.
George Baloglou
In article <59e93u$6...@vinci.inf.ethz.ch> san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
writes:
>Diabasa to ar8ro, omws 6ev leei tipota pou va avtikrouei auta pou
>eipa. Milhse gia epirroh tns 6ushs stnv rwsikh mousikh tov 18o
>aiwva. Ma 6ev milw gia tov 18o aiwva, milw gia tnv mousikh pio priv,
>15o, 16o, 17o aiwva. Ama pareis tis mousikes gia "meditation"
>pou eixav oi lativoi tov 15o-16o aiwva, kai pas meta stov Vivaldi
>kai tov 17o aiwva, 6ev blepeis allages stis formes. Aplws allages
>stnv poluplokothta kai pio polu emfash stnv armovia.
>Ara n mousikh 6ev alla3e basika.
Auto nou h8ela va enichmavw, kai npiv kai twpa, eivai to atono tou va
leme "av 8es va deis nws nepinou htav h Buzavtivh moucikh, nhgaive ctis
Pwccikes ekklhcies"; cumfwvw kata ta alla nws to ap8po nou ecteila dev
3eka8apizei to zhthma, av kai vomizw nws mallov evicxuei tis anoyeis mou.
>Twra, to basiko 8ema eivai oti oi *stauroforoi* otav hr8av stnv
>Kwv/polh, emeivav magemevoi apo tis mousikh pou psalotav stnv Ag. Sofia.
>Milame gia *stauroforous*, olh n sara kai n mara, mazi bebaia kai
>ligh apo intelligencia tns epoxhs. Gia va meivouv oloi autoi magemevoi,
>8a pei oti n mousikes formes tous htav gvwstes, aplws kalutera
>taktopoinmeves kai ektelesmeves.
Ela twpa! Dev exeis akoucei tinota gia thv gohteia tou agvwctou?
Pare shmera evav meso eurwpaio ka8hghth
>se pavepisthmio, upallhlo, agroth, magazatora, barman, gkarsovi, a8lhth,
>evav meso eurwpaio alhtampoura, pare opoiov 8es, kai baltous va akousouv
>tous pio kalous amave6es pou exeis. Des pws 8a avti6rasouv meta apo 10
>lepta. Ka8e allo apo mageia 8a viwsouv. Stnv kaluterh periptwsh 8a sou
>pouv va 6eis ti paizei to ra6io (uparxouv bebaia kai merikes e3aireseis
>pou 8a se rwthsouv pws kai sou aresei n iv6ikh mousikh!).
>Epeita exoume tnv metavasteush apo to Buzavtio stn Dush, opws kai tnv
>ekpai6eush pollwv lativwv stnv Kwv/polh. Polloi Byzavtivoi i6rusav sxoles
>stnv Italia tns avagevvhshs. Exoume epiroes se filosofia, texves (tis liges
>toulaxistov pou kataferav va avte3ouv sto Byzavtio), grammata, kai mou les
>oti to oti 6ev uparxei 6eigma amave stnv Eurwph eivai epei6h epirrease
>n Dush tnv Rwsia?????
Dev eina auto, alla anlws unocthpizw oti ectw kai meta thv eicagwgh,
tuxaia h oxi, tou "icov"--an' oti katalabaivw autos eivai o "amaves"
ths ekklhciactikhs mas moucikhs--h Ellhvikh yalmwdia 8a mnopouce kallicta
va eivai nio kovta cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Pwccikh; kai evdexomevws, kai
me bach navta to ap8po tou Velimirovic, h Cepbikh yalmwdia mnopei va eivai
akomh nio kovta cthv "nhgh"! (Kai to epwthma napamevei: eav o coultavos
mas enebale to "icov", giati dev to ekave kai ctous Cepbous? Av nali to
"icov" htav anlh nolitictikh enippoh, tote nws dev to uio8ethcav kai oi
Cepboi? Edw mallov chkwvw ta xepia yhla kai egkataleinw thv cuzhthch!)
>Filippos
>
>YG. Apavthseis ektos apo to net, me email epishs, giati 8a eimai ektos
>upologistwv gia merikes meres.
Ta idia icxuouv kai gia meva; cou ctelvw avtigpafo autou tou mhvumatos,
euxomevos xpovia nolla kai kales diakones ce olh thv napea.
Giwpgos
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Philip Santas (san...@inf.ethz.ch) wrote:
: >Mou fenete oti den exeis doulepsei gia tous ellines stin NY, einai oti xeirotero
: >exei na deiksei i anthropotita ston planiti, Gia ayto allwste den ftourane
: >oi ellines oute mesa oute eksw.
: Oxi, stnv NYC 6oulepsa gia tnv IBM, oxi se estiatorio :-)
Allo White Plains kai allo Astoria, pws na to kanoume :-) :-)
Ante kai kales giortes paidia....
George Alex Stathis
Spiros Triantafyllopou wrote:
> Den diafwnoume rizika; apla esy pisteveis oti prokeitai peri
> makroxronias synomosias, kai egw pisteuw oti aplws *ginetai*.
> Tha pisteua synomosia an h Ellada htan, px, kommounistiko kratos
> kai uphrxe ideologia sth mesh (Regan klp) h kapoio petrelaio,
> geopolitikh, klp. Alla ta teleutaia 20-30 xronia tipota tetoio,
> kai par ola auta ta idia.
The trouble with "conspiracy theories" (at such a high level) is
that they are... irrelevant. If you are (say) among the few richest
people in the world, and taking part in a 'Club' which dictates even
to politicians what's according to _your_ interests, would it matter
that this is "not a conspiracy"?? Probably not...
(The effects are the same).
It's probably cheaper to hire an assassin against politicians who
go against 'economic strategies', but considering the... bad publicity,
the Risk Analysis Results, etc, and 'long-term investment issues', it's
MUCH safer to buy politicians off, than to... kill them (though the
latter also does happens, at times of economic recession affecting
also the prices of head-jobs', among 'professionals'... :-)
> Epishs, esy den rixneis kanena sfalma sthn Ellada kai sthn
> Ellhnikh nootropia... Gia ola ftaine ta plokamia twn ksenwn.
> Den ginetai etsi, Grhgorh. Den einai MONO oi Amerikanoi, h
> MONO h EOK, h MONO ta skyladika. Oloi ftaine.
>
> Spiros
For me it's people who are at fault for not standing up in their own
two feet, starting their own businesses, treating their partners fairly
and also... making money without exploitation.
A utopian goal, no doubt, but perfectly feasible in Information
Technology. Making people one's partners, causes profits also to rise
(and shared by all, more fairly than before)...
Giwrgos
(pou parasyr8hka kai tapa Anglika, giati tetoies syzhthseis einai
tromera die8neis, kai oxi mono "ellhnikes"...)
Gregory Dandulakis
...
>>Gia ayto allwste den ftourane oi ellines oute mesa oute eksw.
>
>Oxi, stnv NYC 6oulepsa gia tnv IBM, oxi se estiatorio :-)
Se parakalw Filippa, mhn xalas thn fasistikh soupa.
Exete mpleksei ta mpoutia sas. Edw oi Amerikanoi kanoun
san kopadia zwwn se paniko otan pesei ligo xioni sthn
Birtzinia, podopatwntas o enas ton allon me mono stoxo
na prolaboun na paroun ftuari gia ekxionismo, kai eseis
masate malako-karameles oti h giagia mou pou eide ton
xaro me ta matia ths sth "katoxh", prepei na sumperife-
retai san "gentleman" se oles tis peristaseis...
Diabaste kai skefteite ligaki thn ennoia _kefalaio_, pou
einai susswreush ergasias, kai pou perilambanei tautoxrona
ulika kai pneumatika dhmiourghmata, kai meta elate na "ka-
lampourisoume". O Ellhnas ws _automaton_, dhladh ws susthma
aksiwn pou erxontai automata apo thn koultoura tou, den exei
na aisqanqei meionektika apenanti se kanena. Antiqetws, edw
oi karablaxoi kai akoma "aphxtos koinwnikos traxanas", pou
legetai "Amerikanikh koinwnia", mono kai mono epeidh eutuxise
na einai kabala ths hpeirou ths apo to 1820, kai sxedon olhs
ths udrogeiou, apo to 1918, einai shmera "kati", kai qa leme
malakies mparmpoutsala oti h Ellhnikh koinwnia einai gemath
"skato-politismika-gonidia"! Balte to mualo sas sto mikser,
re, kai afaireste tis hliqiothtes pou oi kaqe loghs "Econo-
mist" (Forbes, Fortune, klp) prospaqoun na enstallaksoun sto
kranio sas. Oti taxa autoi exoun piasei ton papa' apo ta arxi-
dia, enw emeis dagkwnoume to kabli mas! Excuse my language!:-)
H tuxh metraei. Kai opoios tuxaia parei to panw xeri, tote kanei
to pan gia na to diathrhsei, kai oi alloi na meinoun "iqageneis"
eis to dihnekes. Am de! Opws eipe kai o Hrakleitos: "Polemos
pathr pantwn".
Grhgorhs
George Alex Stathis
Philip Santas wrote:
>
> Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
> >H Iapwnia eixe kleisth thn agora ths gia eisagwges sugkekrimenwn
> >biomhxanikwn proiontwn, wste na dwsei sthn egxwria biomhxania
> >xwro anapnohs apo ton hdh aneptugmeno ekswteriko antagwnismo,
> >enw eixe plhrh prosbash sthn agora twn HPA, gia oso hqele kai
> >opote hqele.
>
> Poios Iapwvas 8a agoraze amerikaviko proiov meta to telos tou
> polemou? Se mia tetoia xwra, me to megalutero e8vikistiko ais8hma
Ma auto... telika _enisxyei_ thn apopsh tou grhgorh! :-)
(H opoia, parepiptontws, _den- einai enantia, alla _symplhrwmatikh_ sth
dikh sou apopsh KAI se alla shmeia
-me kindyno na... faw karpazies ki ap'tous dyo sas,
bebaia... Xristougenniatika!!! ROTFL... :-)
> Sou to eipa kai sto 3avalew. Exeis 6ei poia ta aithmata twv Ellnvev
> pou apergouv shmera? 8umasai tis "epavastaseis" twv flwrwv priv
> 2 xrovia otav ekleivav to Syvtagma giati ta skula6ika eprepe va
> kleisouv stis 2 kai 4 ta xaramata? Blepeis ti kavouv oi agrotes
> shmera kai ti paraloges apaithseis exouv, alla kai ti ama3ia
> o6hgouv?
Nai!... me ta "Vitara" tous sth nikh, oi lademporoi! (American Values
creeping into the Agricultural Intelligenzia of Greece, of course).
(no kidding). anyway...
Pantws to allo pou eipes gia tis 2 kai oxi tis 4 to blepeis mallon
anapoda. An kai fanatikos anti-skylas, se diabebaiwnw oti htan to
PIO megalo plhgma se o,ti eixe na "poulhsei" h Ellada stous...
touristes. Gi'auto kai katargh8hke. Thn epomenh mera pou o
Papa8emelhs ebgale th diataksh, (gia 2 a.m.) h Ispania ebgale
afisses pou elegan "Welcome to Spain! The country where nobody's
goint to send you home at 2 o'clock after midnight". So they did...
> Exouv ola auta kammia sxesh me tnv Iapwvia?
Einai... "o,ti eide o Giapwnezos" (kai... toskase!!!) :-)
> Kales oi 8ewries peri vtabatzh6wv (kai arketa plhroforiakes se
> gevikes grammes), alla va koitazoume kai tis porves, 6ev eivai
> oles i6ies. Merikes kataferav kai pavtreuthkav tov vtabatzh, alles
> avoi3av 6iko tous mpour6elo, alles omws tov pairvouv akoma eite
> giati 6ev exouv mualo, eite giati tous aresei va tov pairvouv
Swsto!
> Kai mia kai milas gia tis petrelaikes kriseis, isa-isa pou eivai
> kalutera va eisai stnv EOK avti ap'e3w, wste va mhv viwseis tnv krish
> toso polu. Ama eisai se karu6otsouflo, to pio mikro kuma 8a se tarakouvisei
> xwris oikto, ama eisai omws se eva megalo ploio, mporei mev va
> kaveis tnv Kalioph, omws 6ev se kouva oute fourtouva.
> 3exases tnv trapezikh krish stnv Ella6a perusi? Xwris germavika marka,
> oi kata8eseis twv goviwv sou 8a htav pasatempos shmera.
Auto einai ontws mia syzhthsimh apopsh, dioti, twra pou mphkame sto
ploio, 8a prepei na mhn pesoume apo thn koupasth, alla na epibiwsoume.
Kai... sigoura h diaf8ora ths dioikhshs, toso dhmosias oso kai idiwtikhs,
sthn Ellada, DEN boh8a idiaitera thn anwdynh epibiwsh mesa sto "ploio".
Omws ola auta DEN anairoun, kai APLWS symplhrwnoun osa eipe o Grhgorhs.
:)
Kales Giortes
Giwrgos
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Gregory Dandulakis (gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
: H tuxh metraei. Kai opoios tuxaia parei to panw xeri, tote kanei
: to pan gia na to diathrhsei, kai oi alloi na meinoun "iqageneis"
: eis to dihnekes. Am de! Opws eipe kai o Hrakleitos: "Polemos
: pathr pantwn".
Auto swsto einai, Grhgorh. Alla thn tyxh thn kanoume kai monoi mas ama
laxei. Ti tyxh eixe h Souhdia h h Filandia? Den eipa na eimaste
Iapwnia, alla allo Erricson (sp?) kai allo INTRACOM :-)
George Baloglou
In article <59v898$8...@vinci.inf.ethz.ch> san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas)
writes:
>
>George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>Dev eina auto, alla anlws unocthpizw oti ectw kai meta thv eicagwgh,
>>tuxaia h oxi, tou "icov"--an' oti katalabaivw autos eivai o "amaves"
>>ths ekklhciactikhs mas moucikhs--h Ellhvikh yalmwdia 8a mnopouce kallicta
>>va eivai nio kovta cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Pwccikh; kai evdexomevws, kai
>>me bach navta to ap8po tou Velimirovic, h Cepbikh yalmwdia mnopei va eivai
>>akomh nio kovta cthv "nhgh"! (Kai to epwthma napamevei: eav o coultavos
>>mas enebale to "icov", giati dev to ekave kai ctous Cepbous? Av nali to
>>"icov" htav anlh nolitictikh enippoh, tote nws dev to uio8ethcav kai oi
>>Cepboi? Edw mallov chkwvw ta xepia yhla kai egkataleinw thv cuzhthch!)
>
>Giati to Favari eivai se apostash roxalas apo to Top Kapi, gi'auto.
>Kai oloi oi morfwmevoi Favariwtes 6ev pauave va eivai O8wmavoi, kai
>gia va avebouve pshla stnv o8wmavikh ierarxia, eprepe va
>summorfwvovtai me tous o8wmavikous periorismous. Exw bare8ei pleov va
Dev me nei8ei to enixeiphma ths "geitviachs"; akomh, giati va tous ebalav
nepiopicmous cthv yalmwdia kai oxi, nx, kai cthv glwcca?
>akouw gia mousourgous "byzavtivhs mousikhs" stnv Kwv/polh tou 18-19ou
>aiwva. Poia byzavtivh mousikh sthv Kwv/polh tou 19ou aiwva? Mallov gia
>farsa prokeitai...
Auto to afhvw ctous eidikous ... Einame, ano th ctigmh nou dev 3epoume
nws akpibws akougovtav h Buzavtivh moucikh, ola naizovtai!
>Filippos
Gphgopa gupices :-) Kalh xpovia ano thv hmi-xiovicmevh Qeccalovikh!
(Kavw mia gphgoph thlediktuwch ano to Apictoteleio kai dev 3epw note
8a 3avamnw cto diktuo, oute av h cuvdech 8a leitoupgei toco kala oco
chmepa; ev nacei nepintwcei, to cuzhthcame apketa to 8ema gia twpa,
as nepimevoume tov enomevo gupo ...)
>YG. Stnv Praga uparxei mia or8o6o3h slabofwvh ekklhsia (eva tetragwvo apo
>tnv gvwsth gefura). Kai ekei oi psalmw6ies moiazouv polu me tis rwsikes.
Einame: Dutikes enippoes, ti Mocxa, ti 5paga, ti Kepkupa :-))
George Baloglou
>Filippos
George Baloglou
(broadcasting from the Macedonian capital)
Philip Santas
>> Gregory Dandulakis <gd...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>> >H Iapwnia eixe kleisth thn agora ths gia eisagwges sugkekrimenwn
>> >biomhxanikwn proiontwn, wste na dwsei sthn egxwria biomhxania
>> >xwro anapnohs apo ton hdh aneptugmeno ekswteriko antagwnismo,
>> >enw eixe plhrh prosbash sthn agora twn HPA, gia oso hqele kai
>> >opote hqele.
>>
>> Mas 6ouleueis bre Grhgorh? Etsi kaveis avaluseis?
>> Poios Iapwvas 8a agoraze amerikaviko proiov meta to telos tou
>> polemou? Se mia tetoia xwra, me to megalutero e8vikistiko ais8hma
>> stov kosmo, se mia xwra pou oi amerikavoi eri3av uo atomikes bombes...
>
>Ma auto... telika _enisxyei_ thn apopsh tou grhgorh! :-)
>(H opoia, parepiptontws, _den- einai enantia, alla _symplhrwmatikh_ sth
> dikh sou apopsh KAI se alla shmeia
> -me kindyno na... faw karpazies ki ap'tous dyo sas,
> bebaia... Xristougenniatika!!! ROTFL... :-)
8a tis fas prwtoxroviatika :-)
Yparxei mia shmavtikh 6iaf(8)ora.
O Grhgorhs pisteuei oti ola e3hgouvtai me bash kapoia sxe6ia pou
exouv kapoies (uper)6uvameis.
Par'olo pou uparxouv polla tetoia sxe6ia (merika apo ta opoia
ulopoiouvtai), auto e3hgei movo kapoies gevikes kateu8uvseis
kai taseis, kai oxi ta epi merous se azuta pou blepoume shmera.
Eivai xeirotero tou va prospa8eis me bash tn kbavtomhxavikh va
e3hghseis to giati petave ta aeroplava!
Px. gia tnv Ella6a eipe oti mas 3ezoumizouv oi Amerikavoi, kai
oi ellnvikes kubervhseis kakws ekavav pou 6ev prostateusav tnv
egxwria biomhxavia, opws px. egive stnv Iapwvia --avti8eta mas
eri3av stous karxaries tns EOK kata 6iatages tns Amerikhs (pavta
ta 6ika tou logia).
Auto pou lew egw omws eivai
1) H avalogia me tnv Iapwvia eivai asxeth, giati
a) oi i6ioi oi Iapwves (logw vootropias klp) 6ev h8elav eisagwges
se avti8esh me tous Ellnves pou eivai 3evomaveis mexri ah6ias
b) oi Iapwves exouv vomo8esia pou tnv upakouv ws polites, se
avti8esh me tous Ellnves pou tnv katargouv, suvepws 6ev paizei
megalo rolo to ti perioristika metra 8a labei mia ellnvikh
kubervhsh
2) ara to va rixvoume to baros stis ellnvikes kubervhseis (kai parapera
stnv Amerikh, eav upo8esoume oti autes upakouv ta sxe6ia tns) eivai
atopo, kai mallov psaxvoume gia apo6iopompaio trago.
3) epishs n Iapwvia eivai allo eva amerikaviko piovi, ara 6ev blepw
tov logo giati 8a eprepe n Amerikh va tnv blepei polu 6iaforetika
apo tn Ella6a
4) Avti8eta, h eu8uvh se autov tov tomea pisteuw oti baruvei olous tous
Ellnves, oi opoioi 6ev efarmozouv vomous, 6ev akolou8ouv kapoio
sugkekrimevo sxe6io (to movo sxe6io eivai va kavouv xabale), kai
epileov 3o6euouv 3eva xrhmata kai fwvazouv apo pavw giati 6ev tous
6ivouv pio polla va 3o6epsouv.
5) Epishs, kalutera stnv EOK (EE), giati ape3w gurvave alloi karxaries
me tous opoious 6ev mporoume va kavoume kav pazaria. H Ella6a eivai
mikrh agora (se sxesh pavta me tnv Iapwvia).
Dev ftaiei oute h EOK oute n Amerikh gia to oti oi Ellnves protimouv
va kavouv tou kefaliou tous, va 8abouv allous Ellnves kai va ploutizouv
3eves tsepes, avti va summorfwvovtai me tous kavoves tou paixvi6iou, sto
opoio kalws h kakws briskovtai (n evallaktikh lush eivai e3w apo to
paixvi6i). Oute oi Ellnves eivai pasa6es --giati 10 ekatomuria pasa6es
(h 8eoi) paraeivai polloi.
Filippos
Philip Santas
George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Dev eina auto, alla anlws unocthpizw oti ectw kai meta thv eicagwgh,
>tuxaia h oxi, tou "icov"--an' oti katalabaivw autos eivai o "amaves"
>ths ekklhciactikhs mas moucikhs--h Ellhvikh yalmwdia 8a mnopouce kallicta
>va eivai nio kovta cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Pwccikh; kai evdexomevws, kai
>me bach navta to ap8po tou Velimirovic, h Cepbikh yalmwdia mnopei va eivai
>akomh nio kovta cthv "nhgh"! (Kai to epwthma napamevei: eav o coultavos
>mas enebale to "icov", giati dev to ekave kai ctous Cepbous? Av nali to
>"icov" htav anlh nolitictikh enippoh, tote nws dev to uio8ethcav kai oi
>Cepboi? Edw mallov chkwvw ta xepia yhla kai egkataleinw thv cuzhthch!)
Giati to Favari eivai se apostash roxalas apo to Top Kapi, gi'auto.
Kai oloi oi morfwmevoi Favariwtes 6ev pauave va eivai O8wmavoi, kai
gia va avebouve pshla stnv o8wmavikh ierarxia, eprepe va
summorfwvovtai me tous o8wmavikous periorismous. Exw bare8ei pleov va
akouw gia mousourgous "byzavtivhs mousikhs" stnv Kwv/polh tou 18-19ou
aiwva. Poia byzavtivh mousikh sthv Kwv/polh tou 19ou aiwva? Mallov gia
farsa prokeitai...
Filippos
Philip Santas
>George Alex Stathis <hype...@hol.gr> wrote:
>>Philip Santas wrote:
>>1) H avalogia me tnv Iapwvia eivai asxeth, giati
>> a) oi i6ioi oi Iapwves (logw vootropias klp) 6ev h8elav eisagwges
>> se avti8esh me tous Ellnves pou eivai 3evomaveis mexri ah6ias
>Auto einai mia yper-aplousteush. Kserw _poly_ kala th giapwnezikh
>nootropia, ki o (etero8alhs) adelfos mou (Fanhs) milaei akomh kai...
>giapwnezika, exontas paei ekei polles fores. Loipon, 8eleis na ma8eis
>_poios_ einai o PIO... ksenomanhs laos tou kosmou??? - Oi GIAPWNEZOI!
>(kai milame gia periodo apo to... 1964 ews kai shmera, adiakopws)...
>Edw emeis otan pinoume mpyra "Sapporo", sto Kolwnaki, kseroume oti
>h mpyra auth exei _poiothta_, oxi paikse-gelase, enw oi giapwnezoi...
>TI pinoun??? Tis XEIRWTERES mpyres eisagwghs, arkei na einai EISAGWGHS.
>Den exeis idea apo Giapwnezikes antifaseis. Eprepe na milhseis KAI me
>me mia Giapwneza pou molis mas eide na pinoume "Sapporo", gourlwse ta
>matia kai ekane... ypokliseis!!!! A xa xa xa...
Stnv mpura kollhses? (mia kai 6ev eisai ei6ikos, oi avatolitikes mpures
kavouv movo gia po6oloutro --rwta kai emas apo tnv kevtrikh Eurwph ligo).
Ws 3evomavia evvow kuriws tnv uperbolikh katavalwsh 3evwv proiovtwv
xwris avtistoixh katavalwsh (h e3agwgh) topikwv.
Bebaiws kai evas Giapwvezos pou exei lefta 8a parei oti kalutero exei
va prosferei n Dush opws kai 8a poulhsei oti kalutero paragei gia va
bgalei auta ta lefta. Auto eivai to emporio.
Omws n Ella6a 6ev paragei. Pws alliws va to pw? Pera apo to la6i, ola
ta alla zarzabatika eivai tns sumforas. Kai omws katavalwvei oti6hpote
paragei n Dush (kai twra mou eipes oti eisagei mexri kai giapwvezikes
mpures sto Kolwvaki!!!)
>Ta mona
>"ellhnika" kommata htan: To filogalliko, to filoangliko, to filorwsiko!
Etsi mprabo. Kai ta kommata ftaive? H oi polites pou 6ev a3iw8hkav
va ftia3ouv kai va pshfisouv eva komma ths prokophs?
Filippos
Philip Santas
>asynepeia tou kratous pou potE den epapse na mas 8ewrei... ragiades kai
>karagkiozhdes, pisto stous kyklous kai ta salonia (pou pi8anws kybernoun).
>To an auto to aisxos einai 100% tnopio h eisagwmeno DEN me endiaferei...
Dnl ola auta ta ekatomuria pou zhtokraugazouv priv tis ekloges,
zhtwkraugazouv autous pou 6hmiourgouv eva kratos pou eivai asuvepes???
Dev mas ta les kala, ka8olou kala.
Auto pou pipilas twra to exw akousei muria6es fores. Dev bgaivei
vohma, giati oi i6ioi oi polites tous pshfizouv, kai oxi movo
tous pshfizouv, alla sta xwria upoxrewvouv kai tis guvaikes tous
va tous pshfizouv, kai 6ev milave kav stov suvxwriavo pou
pshfise autous ths allhs parata3hs. Suvepws apo osous kubervave,
oi misoi toulaxistov tous 8ewrouv pera gia pera suvepeis
(kai oi alloi misoi 8ewrouv suvepeis autous pou kubervouv alles
fores).
>Twra, to DEYTERO stereotypo pou pairneis ws dedomeno einai oti (taxa...)
>oi Giapwnezoi einai... "Panagies" pou douleuoun ap'to prwi ws to brady
>logw... patriwtismou kai mono. POLY megalo psemma. KSEREIS poios kyberna
>thn Iapwnia? H... Mafia (Yakouza)! Ksereis TI oikonomika skandala bghkan
>(kai posa... den bghkan) sth fora, ekei? -Tromaktika!!! ...Ta ellhnika
>"skandalakia" einai... erasitexnika!!
Pou8eva 6ev eipa oti oi Iapwves 6ouleuouv pio polu.
Exw tuxei va mpw se giapwveziko grafeio, kai n sekr-etaira ekobe
leuka xartia kommatakia gia va 6ei3ei oti 6ouleuei. Kai auto
apotelei gevika kavova.
Oute eipa oti 6ev uparxei mafia stnv Iapwvia. Omws eav bgei skav6alo
sth fora, tote xarakiri. Kai stnv Elbetia givovtai eva swro skav6ala
(opou lefta, ekei kai skav6ala, 6ev uparxei e8vos agiwv --movo magkaves
pou piavouv tous porvhrous). Omws eav se piasouv, tote 3exviesai apo
proswpou ghs, 6ev se 3eplevei oute o Niagaras (pou leei kai n taivia :-)
Stnv Ella6a omws 8a se pouv malaka eav 6ev kaveis kapoio skav6alo, kai
eav se piasouv 8a giveis e8vikos star kai 8a akouseis eva swro mprabo
pou hsouv tsampoukas kai ekaves paravomia!
Ase 6nl pou mporei va pareis kai proagwgh!
Kai ola auta se eva 6hmokratiko susthma!
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <32C4DD...@hol.gr>,>Dystyxws oi Ellhnes einai kaloi sto emporio kai OXI kaloi san paragwgoi.
>Omws KAI auto exei pragmatikes aities. Sto diko mou epagglema, htan
>polles fores _megalos_ peirasmos na... eisagoume kseno Software, anti
>na ftiaksoume diko mas. Protimhsame to teleutaio... kai den einai eukolo.
>(Idiws me thn eforia na mas exei... ston pato ths listas forologika)...
Poio emporio? Kai oi Bevetsiavoi htav kaloi sto emporio, kai kavave
lefta kai mia aurokratoria pou krathse 1000 xrovia apo to emporio. Omws
h 8esh 6ev boh8a, kai gi'auto telika patwsav. Na to e3hghsw ligo auto:
Se avti8esh me tov Grhgorh pou pisteuei oti mporei va ftia3ei mia
autokratoria stnv avatolikh Mesogeio, proswpika pisteuw oti h perioxh
6ev eu6okimei. Giati n Mesogeios eivai kleisth 8alassa. kai pera
apo kei 6ev pas pou8eva xwris va se elg3ouv alloi. Ersi, n avatolikh
Mesogeios exei asxhme 6iasuv6eseis me tov upoloipo kosmo, kai kavevav
wkeavo va tnv profula3ei (to ligosto tmhma kleivetai eukola
apo alles autokratories).
Kalo gia texvologia rwmaikhs autokratorias, alla kako gia texvologia
apo guro ths Afrikhs kai avakalupsh Amerikhs kai meta (opws
apo6eix8hke kai istorika).
Omws otav mou les oti oi Ellnves eivai kaloi emporoi, eivai sav
va mou les oti oloi prepei va 3eviteutouv kai va kavouv emporio
ekei pou tous pairvei. Giati va kavei emporio o mavabhs tns geitovias
stov xasaph pou 8a tou 6wsei kreas, prepei kati va avtalla3ouv.
Kai autoi bebaia exouv kati va avtalla3ouv. Omws o mitos prepei va
3ekivhsei apo kapou, giati oi i6ioi 6ev paragouv tipota, kai afou
6ev uparxei vtopia paragwgh, mporei va 3ekivhsei movo apo to e3wteriko,
alliws kavoume emporio me aera kopavisto. E6w eivai to kollhma.
Omws otav exeis kratos, prepei va exeis kai paragwgh sth sugkekrimevh
xwra --h sklabous se alles.
Oute to eva exoume, oute to allo...
Filippos
Philip Santas
>>
>> Etsi mprabo. Kai ta kommata ftaive? H oi polites pou 6ev a3iw8hkav
>> va ftia3ouv kai va pshfisouv eva komma ths prokophs?
>
>polites (me thn plhrh ennoia ths lekshs) yparxoun omws... gkriniarhdes!!
>Kalws Hl8es, Filippe, sto... "Syllogo Ellhnwn Gkriniarhdwn"!!!
Eee? Dev gkriviazw! Diapistwseis kavw, kai merikes protaseis.
Avti va gkriviazw, bghka e3w. Etsi
1) suvtelw stnv meiwsh tns avergeias (afou tnv 8esh mou mporei va tnv
parei kapoios allos pou alliws 8a htav avergos),
2) boh8w stnv au3hsh tou tourismou stnv Ella6a,afou tnv episkeptomai
merikes fores.
3) suvtelw stnv meiwsh tou e8vikou xreous kai tns beltiwshs tou
isozugiou plhrwmwv, afou 6ev katavalwvw 3eva proiovta 3o6euovtas
ellnvikes 6raxmes!
Gia pio ousiastikh boh8eia, pshfiste me kai 8a sas ftia3w ta pavta :-)
Filippos
Philip Santas
In article <5a046f$s...@panix.com>, George Baloglou <balo...@panix.com> wrote:
>san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) writes:
>>>
>>>Dev eina auto, alla anlws unocthpizw oti ectw kai meta thv eicagwgh,
>>>tuxaia h oxi, tou "icov"--an' oti katalabaivw autos eivai o "amaves"
>>>ths ekklhciactikhs mas moucikhs--h Ellhvikh yalmwdia 8a mnopouce kallicta
>>>va eivai nio kovta cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Pwccikh; kai evdexomevws, kai
>>>me bach navta to ap8po tou Velimirovic, h Cepbikh yalmwdia mnopei va eivai
>>>akomh nio kovta cthv "nhgh"! (Kai to epwthma napamevei: eav o coultavos
>>>mas enebale to "icov", giati dev to ekave kai ctous Cepbous? Av nali to
>>>"icov" htav anlh nolitictikh enippoh, tote nws dev to uio8ethcav kai oi
>>>Cepboi? Edw mallov chkwvw ta xepia yhla kai egkataleinw thv cuzhthch!)
>>
>>Giati to Favari eivai se apostash roxalas apo to Top Kapi, gi'auto.
>>Kai oloi oi morfwmevoi Favariwtes 6ev pauave va eivai O8wmavoi, kai
>>gia va avebouve pshla stnv o8wmavikh ierarxia, eprepe va
>>summorfwvovtai me tous o8wmavikous periorismous. Exw bare8ei pleov va
>
>nepiopicmous cthv yalmwdia kai oxi, nx, kai cthv glwcca?
Twra tnv koloku8ia 8a pai3oume? Mhpws 8ewreis 6nl. oti n Attikh 6ialektos
htav stis evgegrammeves tns O8wmavias? Ta arxaia htav ekei, kaveis omws
6ev ta milouse se ka8hmerivh bash. Ara vekrh glwssa etsi kai alliws --amfiballw
oti ta pai6akia tou 6hmotikou kai gumvasiou ma8aivave Omhro apo to
prwtotupo (pera apo merika apospasmatakia apo tnv Biblo).
Kaveis soultavos 6ev fobatai mia vekrh glwssa, oute kobei lativika
kai arxaia. Poso mallov otav auth n glwssa xrhsimeuei kai stnv politikh!
>>akouw gia mousourgous "byzavtivhs mousikhs" stnv Kwv/polh tou 18-19ou
>>aiwva. Poia byzavtivh mousikh sthv Kwv/polh tou 19ou aiwva? Mallov gia
>>farsa prokeitai...
>
>Auto to afhvw ctous eidikous ... Einame, ano th ctigmh nou dev 3epoume
>nws akpibws akougovtav h Buzavtivh moucikh, ola naizovtai!
Aaa, 6nl 6ev 3eroume oti n Byzavtivh mousikh eixe amave6es??? :-)
Ev6iaferov!
>Gphgopa gupices :-) Kalh xpovia ano thv hmi-xiovicmevh Qeccalovikh!
Euxaristw, epishs.
Merikes meres gia ski eixa paei, va 3eskouriasoume ligo.
Gurisa gia 2 meres, gia va 3avafugw, gia to farwest, me tous Iv6iavous :-)
Filippos
>(Kavw mia gphgoph thlediktuwch ano to Apictoteleio kai dev 3epw note
>8a 3avamnw cto diktuo, oute av h cuvdech 8a leitoupgei toco kala oco
>chmepa; ev nacei nepintwcei, to cuzhthcame apketa to 8ema gia twpa,
>as nepimevoume tov enomevo gupo ...)
>
>>YG. Stnv Praga uparxei mia or8o6o3h slabofwvh ekklhsia (eva tetragwvo apo
>>tnv gvwsth gefura). Kai ekei oi psalmw6ies moiazouv polu me tis rwsikes.
>
George Alex Stathis
At 11:36 мм 27/12/1996 +0100, Philip Santas wrote:
>In article <32C4DD...@hol.gr>,
>George Alex Stathis <hype...@hol.gr> wrote:
>>
>>Omws KAI auto exei pragmatikes aities. Sto diko mou epagglema, htan
>>polles fores _megalos_ peirasmos na... eisagoume kseno Software, anti
>>na ftiaksoume diko mas. Protimhsame to teleutaio... kai den einai eukolo.
>>(Idiws me thn eforia na mas exei... ston pato ths listas forologika)...
>
>Poio emporio? Kai oi Bevetsiavoi htav kaloi sto emporio, kai kavave
>lefta kai mia aurokratoria pou krathse 1000 xrovia apo to emporio. Omws
>h 8esh 6ev boh8a, kai gi'auto telika patwsav. Na to e3hghsw ligo auto:
>Se avti8esh me tov Grhgorh pou pisteuei oti mporei va ftia3ei mia
>autokratoria stnv avatolikh Mesogeio, proswpika pisteuw oti h perioxh
>6ev eu6okimei.
Auto prepei na paradextw oti... symfwnw me esena perissotero.
Alla... nomizw oti... kapws oneireuotan h... asteieuotan otan
to elege (o Grhgorhs)... Idwmen... otan gyrisei sto diktyo TI
8a mas pei gi'auto...
(Pairnw alles apopseis tou ws shnantikes, kai oxi auth, giati...
emporio me orismenous "filous geitones" ligo xlwmo to blepw).
> Giati n Mesogeios eivai kleisth 8alassa. kai pera
>apo kei 6ev pas pou8eva xwris va se elg3ouv alloi. Ersi, n avatolikh
>Mesogeios exei asxhme 6iasuv6eseis me tov upoloipo kosmo, kai kavevav
>wkeavo va tnv profula3ei (to ligosto tmhma kleivetai eukola
>apo alles autokratories).
>Kalo gia texvologia rwmaikhs autokratorias, alla kako gia texvologia
>apo guro ths Afrikhs kai avakalupsh Amerikhs kai meta (opws
>apo6eix8hke kai istorika).
Poly endiaferousa parathrhsh. PRAGMATIKA adhmonw na dw ti 8a
apanthsei s'authn o Grhgorhs, kai... symfwnw mazy sou s'auta!
>Omws otav mou les oti oi Ellnves eivai kaloi emporoi, eivai sav
>va mou les oti oloi prepei va 3eviteutouv kai va kavouv emporio
>ekei pou tous pairvei.
Ma... auto den ekanan panta; 3enitia + emporio, panta mazy!
> Giati va kavei emporio o mavabhs tns geitovias
>stov xasaph pou 8a tou 6wsei kreas, prepei kati va avtalla3ouv.
>Kai autoi bebaia exouv kati va avtalla3ouv. Omws o mitos prepei va
>3ekivhsei apo kapou, giati oi i6ioi 6ev paragouv tipota, kai afou
>6ev uparxei vtopia paragwgh, mporei va 3ekivhsei movo apo to e3wteriko,
>alliws kavoume emporio me aera kopavisto. E6w eivai to kollhma.
Ma... auto to kollhma to kserw poly kala, kai den diafwnw. To 8ema
einai TI einai auto pou eu8unetai gia thn mh-paragwgikothta, th
stigmh poy an rwthseis opoiondhopte 8a sou pei poso eukolwtero einai
na 'parageis'.... se kapoies alles xwres PARA sthn Ellada!
Na sou pw ena... ekswfreniko paradeigma: Kapote (otan ksekinhsa
th douleia mou) o Mhtsotakhs ebgale enan nomo pou... anebaze to orio
gia "dieykolynseis" eksagwgwn se poly megalytera posa dollariwn.
Htan enas nomos pou dieukolyne tous MEGALOUS e3agwgeis, kai xtyphse
tous mikrous. Alla oi megaloi... 3ekinhsan kapote KAI autoi san
mikroi. Etsi... pros8ese ena akomh empodio sthn e3agwgimothta...
(toutestin thn PIO shmantikh paragwgikothta).
>Omws otav exeis kratos, prepei va exeis kai paragwgh sth sugkekrimevh
>xwra --h sklabous se alles.
>Oute to eva exoume, oute to allo...
Auto to leme ki emeis synexeia! Oi brwmo-skylades den akoune,
alla phgainoun kai "ta spane"... kanontas kompines ths kakias
wras, arpaxtes tou kerata... asta na pane, dystyxws.
OMWS: Na doume telika... poios 8a kanei thn kalyterh paragwgh!
Giati sthn... plhroforikh o paragwn "poiothta" DEN asteieuetai.
An hkseres posa talenta menoun ana3iopoihta, kai gnwrizes osa
ap'auta exw gnwrisei KAI proswpika, 8a allazes gnwmh gia ton...
"emfyta anti-paragwgiko" xarakthra mas. Eimaste POLY paragwgikoi!
Giati na t krypswmen allwste; -Eides ti dhmiourgikh syzhthsh
kanoume TWRA? :-)
Xairetw kai... xairomai
Giwrgos
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Philip Santas (san...@inf.ethz.ch) wrote:
: 1) suvtelw stnv meiwsh tns avergeias (afou tnv 8esh mou mporei va tnv
: parei kapoios allos pou alliws 8a htav avergos),
: 2) boh8w stnv au3hsh tou tourismou stnv Ella6a,afou tnv episkeptomai
: merikes fores.
: 3) suvtelw stnv meiwsh tou e8vikou xreous kai tns beltiwshs tou
: isozugiou plhrwmwv, afou 6ev katavalwvw 3eva proiovta 3o6euovtas
: ellnvikes 6raxmes!
4) Agorazw Ellhnika proionta pou kai pou :-). Fetos edwsa ola ta
Xristougenniatika dwra se filous mpoukales Ellhniko krasi (kalo,
oxi Riunite/Retsina) kai alla Ellhnika pota.
Spiros Triantafyllopou
George Alex Stathis (hype...@hol.gr) wrote:
: Ma eseis eisaste PRAGMATI eidikoi!!!! :-)
O Filippos exei zhsei merika xronia stis HPA. Edw ginesai eidikos
sthn mpyra (einai toso kakh h Amerikanikh pou poly grhgora psaxneis
gia kati kalytero :-) :-) :-))
: Pantws... protimw poly thn "Carolus d'Or" kai thn Guiness, ka8ws epishs
: thn Lucifer, alla... apo Eksarxeia-meria, h teleutaia... :-)
Apo Amerikanikes, Coors kalh sxetika; apo eisagwghs, Corona kai pashs
Mexikou, klp. Alla genika psakse gia pub me microbrewery...
: Auto opws ksereis exei prwtarxiko logo thn anyparksia ntopias *paragwghs*.
: H "ksenomania" erxetai _deuterh_. An oi Ellhnes hsan toso ksenomaneis,
: giati... kathnthsan oi perissoteroi... skylades??? Ta "ellhnikadia"
: dinoun kai pairnoun autes tis meres. O kosmos _protimaei_ ellhnika...
: (asxeta an prokeitai gia... tourkogeneis amanedes kai arabika asmata!)
: (POIOS to anagnwrizei auto?)
Oxi... Sth diaskedash protimoun Ellhnika se kalitexnes kai styl
diaskedashs (skyladiko vs. disco). Alla ama pinoun fthno Scotch anti
gia ta kala brandy klp pou exoume, kai gamw to. Metaxa kai pashs
Ellados...
: Poly swsth diapistwsh: H Ellada den paragei. O Grhgorhs twra 8a sou
: ekshghsei merikous logous pou... atonhse h Ellhnikh paragwgh. Auto pou
: eseis oi dyo lete DEN diaferei kai poly...
Ante kai pou kapote parage kai Opel Cadets gia kana xrono :-) kai
mas to kleisane to magazi sto Marousi... Ekleise kai o Theoxaris (?)
sto Volo, ante kai se anwtera...
Philip Santas
In article <5a1uqt$5...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
Spiros Triantafyllopou <stri...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>Apo Amerikanikes, Coors kalh sxetika; apo eisagwghs, Corona kai pashs
>Mexikou, klp. Alla genika psakse gia pub me microbrewery...
Mpa, apo me3ikavikes cervezes stis 3av8ies protimw tnv Bohemia,
evw stis maures tnv Tres Equis. Gia ta microbrewery exeis 6ikio
--6ev eivai avagkh va eivai toso micro bebaia, afou sto Quebec
briskeis tis St. Ambroise akoma kai sta super market (kave
mia bolta apo kei pou eisai sto Mtl movo kai movo gia va
6okimaseis ligo mpura tns prokophs :-)
To i6io isxuei kai gia to Me3iko fusika, opws kai stnv apo
6w meria tou Atlavtikou, opou stn Tsexia ei6ika se piavei trela
apo tnv poiothta kai arwma tns mpuras pou serbirouv merikes taberves
se api8ava xwria.
Ma akoma kai oi Rwsoi rixvouv stnv amerikavikh mpura. Dokimase
tnv Baltikum kai 8a 6eis ti esti metakommouvistikh Rwsia :-)
>Oxi... Sth diaskedash protimoun Ellhnika se kalitexnes kai styl
>diaskedashs (skyladiko vs. disco). Alla ama pinoun fthno Scotch anti
>gia ta kala brandy klp pou exoume, kai gamw to. Metaxa kai pashs
>Ellados...
Kala ta les. Kleiveis trapezi sta mpouzoukia me ...ouisky!
>Ante kai pou kapote parage kai Opel Cadets gia kana xrono :-) kai
>mas to kleisane to magazi sto Marousi... Ekleise kai o Theoxaris (?)
>sto Volo, ante kai se anwtera...
Ta Nissan les? 8eoxarakhs. Tov ekleise o Tsobolas...
Filippos
George Alex Stathis
Philip Santas wrote:
>
> >George Alex Stathis <hype...@hol.gr> wrote:[...]
> >Edw emeis otan pinoume mpyra "Sapporo", sto Kolwnaki, kseroume oti
> >h mpyra auth exei _poiothta_, oxi paikse-gelase, enw oi giapwnezoi...
>
> Stnv mpura kollhses? (mia kai 6ev eisai ei6ikos, oi avatolitikes mpures
> kavouv movo gia po6oloutro --rwta kai emas apo tnv kevtrikh Eurwph ligo).
Ma eseis eisaste PRAGMATI eidikoi!!!! :-)
Pantws... protimw poly thn "Carolus d'Or" kai thn Guiness, ka8ws epishs
thn Lucifer, alla... apo Eksarxeia-meria, h teleutaia... :-)
> Ws 3evomavia evvow kuriws tnv uperbolikh katavalwsh 3evwv proiovtwv
> xwris avtistoixh katavalwsh (h e3agwgh) topikwv.
Auto opws ksereis exei prwtarxiko logo thn anyparksia ntopias *paragwghs*.
H "ksenomania" erxetai _deuterh_. An oi Ellhnes hsan toso ksenomaneis,
giati... kathnthsan oi perissoteroi... skylades??? Ta "ellhnikadia"
dinoun kai pairnoun autes tis meres. O kosmos _protimaei_ ellhnika...
(asxeta an prokeitai gia... tourkogeneis amanedes kai arabika asmata!)
(POIOS to anagnwrizei auto?)
> Bebaiws kai evas Giapwvezos pou exei lefta 8a parei oti kalutero exei
> va prosferei n Dush opws kai 8a poulhsei oti kalutero paragei gia va
> bgalei auta ta lefta. Auto eivai to emporio.
Dystyxws oi Ellhnes einai kaloi sto emporio kai OXI kaloi san paragwgoi.
Omws KAI auto exei pragmatikes aities. Sto diko mou epagglema, htan
polles fores _megalos_ peirasmos na... eisagoume kseno Software, anti
na ftiaksoume diko mas. Protimhsame to teleutaio... kai den einai eukolo.
(Idiws me thn eforia na mas exei... ston pato ths listas forologika)...
> Omws n Ella6a 6ev paragei. Pws alliws va to pw? Pera apo to la6i, ola
> ta alla zarzabatika eivai tns sumforas. Kai omws katavalwvei oti6hpote
> paragei n Dush (kai twra mou eipes oti eisagei mexri kai giapwvezikes
> mpures sto Kolwvaki!!!)
Poly swsth diapistwsh: H Ellada den paragei. O Grhgorhs twra 8a sou
ekshghsei merikous logous pou... atonhse h Ellhnikh paragwgh. Auto pou
eseis oi dyo lete DEN diaferei kai poly...
> >Ta mona
> >"ellhnika" kommata htan: To filogalliko, to filoangliko, to filorwsiko!
>
> Etsi mprabo. Kai ta kommata ftaive? H oi polites pou 6ev a3iw8hkav
> va ftia3ouv kai va pshfisouv eva komma ths prokophs?
Den yphrxan tote "polites", para mono ragiades. Shmera PALI den yparxoun
polites (me thn plhrh ennoia ths lekshs) yparxoun omws... gkriniarhdes!!
Kai esy, filtate, ethnoflygestate, Fillipestate Fillipe, eupatridh,
eisai ena eklekto kai aksio neo melos tou Ellhnikou mas syllogou:
Kalws Hl8es, Filippe, sto... "Syllogo Ellhnwn Gkriniarhdwn"!!!
Xronia polla kai pali
Giwrgos
(Grammateus ths... Fantastikhs Enwsews "International Grumblers' Association").
ROTFL!!! :-) :-) :-)
Prodromos Savaidis
san...@inf.ethz.ch (Philip Santas) wrote:
>In article <5a1uqt$5...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
>>Ante kai pou kapote parage kai Opel Cadets gia kana xrono :-) kai
>>mas to kleisane to magazi sto Marousi... Ekleise kai o Theoxaris (?)
>>sto Volo, ante kai se anwtera...
>Ta Nissan les? 8eoxarakhs. Tov ekleise o Tsobolas...
Kaneis lauos. (pasokos eisai ? :-)
Ekleise epeidh huele polla disekatomyria gia na anabaumishei
thn paragwdikh diadikasia gia na thn kanei antagwnistikh
me tis alles monades ths NISSAN pragma poy den ton
synefere giati eprepe na exei pollaplasia paragwgh poy
den mporoyse na thn diauesei.
Etsi ependyse ta xrhmata poy kerdise tosa xronia
sto emporio kai se alles epixeiriseis (nomizw ston Toyrismo)
>Filippos
Makis
Spiros Triantafyllopou
Prodromos Savaidis (sava...@hol.gr) wrote:
: >>mas to kleisane to magazi sto Marousi... Ekleise kai o Theoxaris (?)
: >>sto Volo, ante kai se anwtera...
: >Ta Nissan les? 8eoxarakhs. Tov ekleise o Tsobolas...
: Kaneis lauos. (pasokos eisai ? :-)
: Ekleise epeidh huele polla disekatomyria gia na anabaumishei
: thn paragwdikh diadikasia gia na thn kanei antagwnistikh
: me tis alles monades ths NISSAN pragma poy den ton
: synefere giati eprepe na exei pollaplasia paragwgh poy
: den mporoyse na thn diauesei.
: Etsi ependyse ta xrhmata poy kerdise tosa xronia
: sto emporio kai se alles epixeiriseis (nomizw ston Toyrismo)
Anti gia Nissan dhladh, frappedes kai pastes.
Ante kai eis anwtera...
Gregory Dandulakis
In article George Alex Stathis <hype...@hol.gr> wrote:
>
>At 11:36 мм 27/12/1996 +0100, Philip Santas wrote:
...
>>Poio emporio? Kai oi Bevetsiavoi htav kaloi sto emporio, kai kavave
>>lefta kai mia aurokratoria pou krathse 1000 xrovia apo to emporio. Omws
>>h 8esh 6ev boh8a, kai gi'auto telika patwsav. Na to e3hghsw ligo auto:
>>Se avti8esh me tov Grhgorh pou pisteuei oti mporei va ftia3ei mia
>>autokratoria stnv avatolikh Mesogeio, proswpika pisteuw oti h perioxh
>>6ev eu6okimei.
>
>Auto prepei na paradextw oti... symfwnw me esena perissotero.
>Alla... nomizw oti... kapws oneireuotan h... asteieuotan otan
>to elege (o Grhgorhs)... Idwmen... otan gyrisei sto diktyo TI
>8a mas pei gi'auto...
Xairetw kai pali. Loipon, kat'arxas oi Benetsianoi den krathsan
kai gia 1,000 xronia ws autokratoria, ektos kai ean baloume polu
saltsa sth salata. To polu 500 xronia. Mesa 1100 me mesa 1600.
Me to xasimo ths Krhths stous Oqwmanous, me th bohqeia twn Bre-
tanwn pou epofqalmiousan th nautikh uperoxh sthn Anatolikh Meso-
geio, oi Benetsianoi htan hdh patates.
Epi ths ousias. Oute oi Oqwmanoi, oute oi Benetsianoi, pote
staqeropoihsan kai oloklhrwsan ton elegxo ths Anatolikhs Me-
sogeiou, me ton tropo pou ton eixan oloklhrwsei oi Byzantinoi.
Oi Oqwmanoi panta emeinan hpeirwtikh dunamh, me th qalassa na
kuriarxeitai apo allous (Benetsianous, Bretanous/Gallous), kai
oi Benetsianoi panta emeinan nautikh dunamh mono, xwris ixnos
strathgikou baqous sth kshra.
Oi Benetsianoi bouliaksan giati olh tous h paragwgikh "dunamh"
eksartiwtan apo th monopwlhsh tou emporiou Anatolhs-Dushs, mesw
tou elegxou ths Anatolikhs Mesogeiou. Apaks kai auto to empo-
rio perase strathgika mesw Notiou Afrikhs (Portogaloi to prw-
tanoiksan), olh h paragwgikh gumnia twn Benetsianwn ksediplwqhke.
Ws pros th dunatothta _eustaqous_ autokratorias/megalou eqnous
shmera, den exw kamia amfibolia. Enas tetoios sxhmatismos exei
ola ta anagkaia strathgika shmeia. Basikes oikonomikes roes se
terasties posothtes. Gewrgia se Augupto kai Suria, ksulia sta
Balkania. Energeia sth Mesh Anatolh (kai sth perioxh mas, upo-
qetw). Orukta pashs morfhs. Kai eks isou shmantiko, exei th
dunatothta fthnhs stratiwtikhs qwrakishs tou. Erhmos sth Saxa-
ra, bouna sta Balkania, Kaukaso, Mesh Anatolh.
Auto pou den einai dunato na ginei, den einai h eustaqeia tou
gewpolitikou sxhmatismou, ean pote htan dunaton na epiteuxqei.
"Qermodunamika" to susthma einai aristo. To adunato einai sthn
euresh _mhxanismou_ epiteukshs tou, _metabatika_. Pote' oi hdh
megaloi den qa afhsoun na anaptuxqei antagwnisths tous, sto ba-
qmo pou elegxoun oles tis basikes roes sth perioxh shmera (opla,
oikonomikes prwtes ules, propaganda). To sxedeio "kolaei"
_Kinhtika_.
As kanw kai ena sxedeio gia na ginei antilhpto pio kala:
C
-
- -
- -
A - -
-------- -
-
-
- B
----------
Shmera briskomaste sth katastash A. Mia polu pio eustaqhs katastash
einai auth ths B (opou h Anatolikh Mesogeios einai kratos megalo kai
aneksarthto (sthn ousia/pragmatikothta, kai oxi mono sta logia opws
shmera)). Alla gia na peraseis apo thn A katastash sthn B katastash,
prepei prwta na peraseis apo thn katastash C. H katastash C einai
omws eksairetika astaqhs, akribws logw tou megalou empodiou pou
dhmiourgeitai apo tis shmerines megales dunameis. H monh dunatothta
einai na katebasqei h anagkaia "energeia" ths katastashs C, mesw ths
dhmiourgeias enos mhxanismou _Katalushs_. Katalush edw shmainei eite
neos pagkosmios polemos, pou qa odhghsei se amoibaia eksontwsh twn
shmerinwn aneksarthtwn paixtwn (HPA, Rwssia, Kina), h' se makroxro-
nia eswterikh apostaqeropoihsh twn HPA, apo upermetrh aukshsh tou
plhqusmou ths, kai eswterikes epanastaseis.
Grhgorhs
Gregory Dandulakis
>>
>>Dev eina auto, alla anlws unocthpizw oti ectw kai meta thv eicagwgh,
>>tuxaia h oxi, tou "icov"--an' oti katalabaivw autos eivai o "amaves"
>>ths ekklhciactikhs mas moucikhs--h Ellhvikh yalmwdia 8a mnopouce kallicta
>>va eivai nio kovta cthv Buzavtivh an' oti h Pwccikh; kai evdexomevws, kai
>>me bach navta to ap8po tou Velimirovic, h Cepbikh yalmwdia mnopei va eivai
>>akomh nio kovta cthv "nhgh"! (Kai to epwthma napamevei: eav o coultavos
>>mas enebale to "icov", giati dev to ekave kai ctous Cepbous? Av nali to
>>"icov" htav anlh nolitictikh enippoh, tote nws dev to uio8ethcav kai oi
>>Cepboi? Edw mallov chkwvw ta xepia yhla kai egkataleinw thv cuzhthch!)
>
>Giati to Favari eivai se apostash roxalas apo to Top Kapi, gi'auto.
>Kai oloi oi morfwmevoi Favariwtes 6ev pauave va eivai O8wmavoi, kai
>gia va avebouve pshla stnv o8wmavikh ierarxia, eprepe va
>summorfwvovtai me tous o8wmavikous periorismous. Exw bare8ei pleov va
>aiwva. Poia byzavtivh mousikh sthv Kwv/polh tou 19ou aiwva? Mallov gia
>farsa prokeitai...
Am de! Elleipsei _aklonhtwn stoixeiwn_, kai afou piasthkes me tis kle-
menes kottes sta xeria, (oi Rwssoi na exoun energa afomoiwsei dutikh
mousikh, aiwnes meta to Byzantio, ara h shmerinh Rwssikh ekklhsiastikh
mousikh einai anaksiopisth phgh elegxou ths arxikhs Byzantinhs mousikhs,
se antiqesh me tis arxikes sas aerologies), arxizeis ta tsalimakia me ta
peristasiaka kai sxedon asxeta dedomena.
Les kai o Soultanos xreiazotan di'pla porta tsifliki gia na elegksei
tous polites tou. Etsi gia akoma pio polu peristasiakh epixeirhmatologia
tou kwlou: "It is a well established fact that in 16th century Stambul
the Serbian language was commonly spoken, due to the spread of Slav
dialects among the Janissaries who were in the main recruited at the
time from among the peoples of the Balkans." (USSR Academy of Sciences,
1988). Ara, poioi htan pio polu me to soultaniko daxtulo sto stwma;
To Fanari h' oi Serboi; Den blepw kamia diafora egw.
Grhgorhs