Pagan Christs

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Aggie-Tom

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Nov 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/18/00
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PAGAN CHRISTS

At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the Mediterranean
world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and rituals. Details varied
according to location and culture, but the general outlines of these faiths
were astonishingly similar. Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:

Were born on or very near our Christmas Day
Were born of a Virgin-Mother
Were born in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
Led a life of toil for Mankind.
Were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior,
Deliverer.
Were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly
world.
Founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were
received by Baptism.
Were commemorated by Eucharistic meals.
(The best book to go to for further details is The Christ Conspiracy.)

=======================================

ATTIS

Phrygia

Born of the Virgin Nana on December 25th.

He was both the Father and the Divine Son.

He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was
buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had
arisen from the dead (on March 25th).

He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins --
after which they declared themselves "born again."

His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the
body of the savoir.

At the summer solstice celebration of his death an resurrection He is shown
slain and hanging on a tree.

Called "the Good Sheppard," the "Most High God," the "Only Begotten Son"
and "Savior."


=======================================

BUDDHA

India

Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th, announced by a star and attended
by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs.

Taught in temple at age 12.
Tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting.
Baptized in water with the Spirit of God present.

Healed the sick
Fed 500 from a small basket of cakes
Walked on water.

Came to fulfill the law. Preached the establishment of a kingdom of
righteousness.

Obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world.

Transfigured on a mount.

Died ( on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb
opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return
in later days to judge the dead.

Called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer,"
"Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

=======================================


DYONISOS

Greece

Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger.
He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles.

Rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.
Turned water into wine.

Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god.

Rose from the dead March 25th.

Identified with the ram and lamb's

Called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin
bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

=======================================

JESUS

Middle East

Born on December 25th of a virgin, Mary in a stable (the gospel of
Protevangelion says in a cave).

He traveled widely, doing good works. He was betrayed, sacrificed and
buried, his body placed in a tomb. He arose on the third day and ascended
into Heaven.

Baptism: Understood from the time of Paul as a death experience and
emergence from the water taken as the beginning of a new life.
Eucharist: Sacred meal of Blood and Body of the God

Holy days: Winter solstice -- Christmas. Summer solstice -- Easter

=======================================

HERAKLES

Greece

Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until
her god-begotten child was born.
Sacrificed at the spring equinox.

Called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of
Righteousness."


=======================================

KRISHNA

India

Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his
tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the
virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously
illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth.

King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of
all male children born during the same night at He.

Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing
lepers, the deaf and the blind.

The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced
by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into
Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven.
(The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return
on the last day to judge the quick and the dead.

Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.

=======================================

MITHRAS


Originally Persian
widely worshiped in India and eventually Rome.


When the Christ myth was new Mithras and Mithraism were already ancient.
Worshiped for centuries as God's Messenger of Truth, Mithras was long
revered by the Persians (Zoroastrianism) and the Indians (see the Vedic
literature) before his faith found it's way to Rome where His mysteries
flourished in the second century AD.

Sadly there's a lot we don't know about this faith that comforted million of
souls. Early Christians established the dominance of their religion by
exterminating Mithras' faithful, razing His temples, burning His sacred
texts.

Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born one
more, putting an end to darkness. Every year at first minute of December
25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white
garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense.
Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came
from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know
as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God."

With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator
of men.

He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event
celebrated yearly with much rejoicing.

His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in
remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine,
was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.
Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum) -- early
Baptism "washed in the blood of the Lamb" -- late
Baptism by water [recorded by the Christian author Tertullian]

Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and Salvation of His
adherents --an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the
divine.

The great Mithraic festivals celebrated his birth (at the winter solstice)
and his death and resurrection (at the summer solstice)


=======================================

OSIRIS

Egypt

He came to fulfill the law.

Called "KRST," the "Anointed One."

Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his
birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men.

Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.")

At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized,
having disappeared for 18 years.

Baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the
Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) [note by Aggie-tom:
Annas was the name one of trhe High Priests at the time of John - Ioannos -
son of Annas ie Anup, Caiaphas being the other High Priest. Both names look
Egyptian.]

Traveled widely, taught men and "tamed them by music and gentleness, not by
force of arms" [Plutarch]

Performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead.

Walked on water.

Betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the
month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th
Athyr) and was resurrected.

His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples
on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.

Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the
"Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth."

Expected to reign a thousand years.


=======================================

ZOROASTER

Asia minor

Born of a virgin.
Baptized in a river.

In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. Began his ministry at
age 30.

Tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
Cast out demons.
Restored the sight of a blind man.

Revealed the mysteries of heaven, hell, resurrection, judgment, salvation
and the apocalypse.

His followers celebrated a sacred eucharistic meal.

Called: "The Word made flesh,"

=================================

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/


Soon I'll post a chronology of hoe the Bible was counterfeited based on the
above myths and the story of Apollonius.


EMM

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Nov 18, 2000, 7:10:09 PM11/18/00
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Aggie-tom have expressed opinions against Hellenism so please don't take
them serious


NKrinis

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Nov 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/19/00
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Wrong in every aspect. Was never considered a savior/messiah, according
to the doctrine of anatman, or lack of soul, he never spoke of the First
or Second Cause, not in the Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana traditions.
Renounced ascetism and encouraged the middle way. Was born as a Prince
Sakyamuni. Died meditating and NOT on a cross. Never transfigured on a
Mount. Maya, BTW is sanscrit for illusion, NOT the name of his mother.
Buddhist doctrines have a lot in common with Heraclitus and Plotinus.
Where did you get this info on Buddhism anyway?

NKrinis
?

Richard Eney

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Nov 21, 2000, 12:17:30 AM11/21/00
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In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,

Aggie-Tom <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>PAGAN CHRISTS
>
>At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the Mediterranean
>world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and rituals. Details varied
>according to location and culture, but the general outlines of these faiths
>were astonishingly similar. Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:
>
>Were born on or very near our Christmas Day
>Were born of a Virgin-Mother
>Were born in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
>Led a life of toil for Mankind.
>Were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior,
>Deliverer.
>Were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
>And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
>Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly
>world.
>Founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were
>received by Baptism.
>Were commemorated by Eucharistic meals.
>(The best book to go to for further details is The Christ Conspiracy.)
>
If that was your source for ths stuff, you damn it with very faint praise
indeed. I'll just note the errors about Budha -- who was not, BTW, from
the Mediterranean --

>BUDDHA
>
>India
>
>Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th, announced by a star and attended
>by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs.
>

Maya was not a virgin; she was the properly wedded wife of the King of the
Sakyas. Of course the local wise men presented gifts, doofus; that's what
you do when the King's son is born. And Apsaras are, uh, hardly angels,
though they are beautiful females. They have, shall we say, heroinic
appetites for the pleasures of love.

>Taught in temple at age 12.

Where'd you hear _that_? He was sequestered by his father until he was
past puberty, to make sure he wouldn't see anything of the outside world.

>Tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting.

Well, that's one right.

>Baptized in water with the Spirit of God present.
>

His critical life-change came not with some baptism, but when he saw real,
suffering human beings, and -- to pinpoint a time -- when he cut off his
hair with his knightly blade and then threw away the sword.

>Healed the sick

OK so far.

>Fed 500 from a small basket of cakes
>Walked on water.
>

Not passively, though. He walked on water to rescue a boatman who thought
he -- Budha -- was in danger of drowning. The boatman had been giving him
an argument the day before, maintaining that humans were basically
selfish. But that night the river rose in flood and Buddha was cut off on
a small island. What should he see when the sun rose but the boatman
putting off from shore, despite the turbulent current, and shouting to
Budha to come down to shore and he would pull in there and rescue him.

So Buddha ran over the tossing waves and quickly jumped into the boat
before it could be swamped by the flood. "Ah, friend boatman," he said,
"what was it you were saying about how humans were basically selfish?"

>Came to fulfill the law. Preached the establishment of a kingdom of
>righteousness.
>

Nope. There were four earlier Buddhas (we only know the name of the most
recent one, Dipankara) and at least one more (Maitreya) still to come.
And the Buddhas manifest when the previous Buddha's teaching has died out
or become corrupted; there is no question of any "Kingdom of
Righteousness" being established.

>Obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world.
>

Another one right.

>Transfigured on a mount.
>
Bullfeathers. He died of overeating -- curried pork, in some traditions,
though Wasson claims that it was a dish of mushrooms.

>Died ( on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb
>opened by supernatural powers.

There is no recognized tradition which asserts that Gautama Buddha died by
violence, let alone "on a cross". He did not "arise", because he wasn't
truly dead; he became one with the Universe.

>Ascended into heaven (Nirvana).

Nirvana is a state of non-separateness, not an equivalent to Heaven.

>Will return in later days to judge the dead.
>

Spacegas. The dead will reincarnate until they have attained
illumination, and when that happens they will be able to attain Nirvana.
The nature of their reincarnations is affected by their Karma, which is
vaguely like "sin" but more properly thought of as the consequences of
their actions, not only bad but good. However, even the worst Karma can
be worked off eventually, and since nobody is going to be stuck here
forever there can be no such thing as a Last Judgement.

>Called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer,"
>"Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.
>

I can't recognize a single one of these titles among the ekenames of
Gautama Buddha. He was called Tathagata "he who has thus come", The
World-Honored One, and Sakyamuni "the sage of the Sakyas" most commonly.

-- Dick Eney
WWMD What would Manjusri do?
Cut you loose from your errors
...and it won't be a moment too soon, I would say.

dpwozney

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Nov 21, 2000, 2:18:00 AM11/21/00
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In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> after which they declared themselves "born again."
>
> His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became
> the body of the savoir.
>
> At the summer solstice celebration of his death an resurrection He is
> shown slain and hanging on a tree.
>
> Called "the Good Sheppard," the "Most High God," the "Only Begotten
> Son" and "Savior."

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html

"Lambrechts has also shown that Attis, the consort of Cybele, does not
appear as a "resurrected" god until after A.D. 150. ( "Les Fetes
'phrygiennes' de Cybele et d' Attis," Bulletin de l'lnstitut Historique
Belge de Rome, XXVII 11952], 141-70)."

"The taurobolium was a bloody rite associated with the worship of
Mithra and of Attis in which a bull was slaughtered on 'a grating over
an initiate in a pit below, drenching him with blood. This has been
suggested (e.g., by R. Reitzenstein) as the basis of the Christian's
redemption by blood and Paul's imagery in Romans 6 of the believer's
death and resurrection. Gunter Wagner in his exhaustive study
Pauline Baptism and thc Pagan Mysteries (1963) points out how
anachronistic such comparisons are:

"'The taurobolium in the Attis cult is first attested in the time of
Antoninus Pius for A.D. 160. As far as we can see at present it only
became a personal consecration at the beginning of the third century
A.D. The idea of a rebirth through the instrumentality of the
taurobolium only emerges in isolated instances towards the end of the
fourth century A.D.; it is not originally associated with this
blood-bath [p. 266].'

"Indeed, there is inscriptional evidence from the fourth century A.D.
that, far from influencing Christianity, those who used the taurobolium
were influenced by Christianity. Bruce Metzger in his important essay
"Methodology in the Study of the Mystery Religions and Early
Christianity" (Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish and
Christian (1968), notes:

"'Thus, for example, one must doubtless interpret the change in the
efficacy attributed to the rite of the taurobolium. In competing with
Christianity, which promised eternal life to its adherents, the cult
of Cybele officially or unofficially raised the efficacy of the blood
bath from twenty years to eternity [p. 11].'"
("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)

http://www.mustardseed.net/html/topaganism.html

"The Cult of Cybele and Attis

"Most of our information about the cult describes its practices during
its later Roman period. But the details are slim and almost all the
source material is relatively late, certainly datable long after the
close of the New Testament canon. According to myth, Cybele loved a
shepherd named Attis. Because Attis was unfaithful, she drove him
insane. Overcome by madness, Attis castrated himself and died. This
drove Cybele into great mourning, and it introduced death into the
natural world. But then Cybele restored Attis to life, an event that
also brought the world of nature back to life.

"The presuppositions of the interpreter tend to determine the language
used to describe what followed Attis's death. Many writers refer
carelessly to the "resurrection of Attis." But surely this is an
exaggeration. There is no mention of anything resembling a resurrection
in the myth, which suggests that Cybele could only preserve Attis's
dead body. Beyond this, there is mention of the body's hair continuing
to grow, along with some movement of his little finger. In some
versions of the myth, Attis's return to life took the form of his being
changed into an evergreen tree. Since the basic idea underlying the
myth was the annual vegetation cycle, any resemblance to the bodily
resurrection of Christ is greatly exaggerated.

"Eventually a public rehearsal of the Attis myth became an annual event
in which worshipers shared in Attis's "immortality." Each spring the
followers of Cybele would mourn for the dead Attis in acts of fasting
and flagellation.

"It was only during the later Roman celebrations (after A.D. 300) of
the spring festival that anything remotely connected with a
"resurrection" appears. The pine tree symbolizing Attis was cut down
and then carried corpse-like into the sanctuary. Later in the prolonged
festival, the tree was buried while the initiates worked themselves
into a frenzy that included gashing themselves with knives. The next
night, the "grave" of the tree was opened and the "resurrection of
Attis" was celebrated. But the language of these late sources is highly
ambiguous. In truth, no clear-cut, unambiguous reference to the
supposed "resurrection" of Attis appears, even in the very late
literature from the fourth century after Christ.

"The Taurobolium

"The best-known rite of the cult of the Great Mother was the
taurobolium. It is important to note, however, that this ritual was not
part of the cult in its earlier stages. It entered the religion
sometime after the middle of the second century A.D. During the
ceremony, initiates stood or reclined in a pit as a bull was
slaughtered on a platform above them.[6] The initiate would then be
bathed in the warm blood of the dying animal. It has been alleged that
the taurobolium was a source for Christian language about being washed
in the blood of the lamb (Rev. 7:14) or sprinkled with the blood of
Jesus (1 Pet. 1:2). It has also been cited as the source for Paul's
teaching in Romans 6:1-4, where he relates Christian baptism to the
Christian's identification with Christ's death and resurrection.

"No notion of death and resurrection was ever part of the taurobolium,
however. The best available evidence requires us to date the ritual
about one hundred years after Paul wrote Romans 6:1-4. Not one existing
text supports the claim that the taurobolium memorialized the death and
"resurrection" of Attis. The pagan rite could not possibly have been
the source for Paul's teaching in Romans 6. Only near the end of the
fourth century A.D. did the ritual add the notion of rebirth. Several
important scholars see a Christian influence at work in this later
development.[7] It is clear, then, that the chronological development
of the rite makes it impossible for it to have influenced first-century
Christianity. The New Testament teaching about the shedding of blood
should be viewed in the context of its Old Testament background -- the
Passover and the temple sacrifice."
("Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy?", Ronald Nash)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html

"Attis (p. 523). "The complex mythology of Attis is largely irrelevant
to the quesion of dying and rising deities. In the old, Phrygian
versions, Attis is killed by being castrated, either by himself or by
another; in the old Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither
case is there any question of his returning to life...Neither myth nor
ritual offer any warrant for classifying Attis as a dying and rising
deity."
("Dying and Rising Gods", J. Smith)

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Mark Gerard Miller

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Nov 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/21/00
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In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> PAGAN CHRISTS

[chopperoo]

You forgot Hermes.

All your posting does for me is to confirm that a savior has been sent
to all of the peoples of mankind at one time or another. Thanks for
posting this reminder.

Mark

Aggie-Tom

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Nov 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/21/00
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"Richard Eney" <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8vd0ha$s56$1...@saltmine.radix.net...

> In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> Aggie-Tom <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> >PAGAN CHRISTS

> >


> If that was your source for ths stuff, you damn it with very faint praise
> indeed. I'll just note the errors about Budha -- who was not, BTW, from
> the Mediterranean --

Alexander conquered India and thus Buddha so the Greeks were already aware
of him.

>
> >BUDDHA
> >
> >India
> >
> >Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th, announced by a star and
attended
> >by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs.
> >
> Maya was not a virgin; she was the properly wedded wife of the King of the
> Sakyas. Of course the local wise men presented gifts, doofus; that's what

Who said anything about virgins being celibate. The Prostitutes of Ishtar
and Aphrodite was ALL called Virgins.

> you do when the King's son is born. And Apsaras are, uh, hardly angels,
> though they are beautiful females. They have, shall we say, heroinic
> appetites for the pleasures of love.
>
> >Taught in temple at age 12.
>
> Where'd you hear _that_? He was sequestered by his father until he was
> past puberty, to make sure he wouldn't see anything of the outside world.
>
> >Tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting.
>
> Well, that's one right.
>
> >Baptized in water with the Spirit of God present.
> >
> His critical life-change came not with some baptism, but when he saw real,
> suffering human beings, and -- to pinpoint a time -- when he cut off his
> hair with his knightly blade and then threw away the sword.

So what made Jesus decide only to start preaching after he reach the age of
30.

Actually all of this preaching and travelling would have been a bit
expensive don't you think. Maybe he amassed himself a fortune first.
Remember he was a free man who practiced his own trace, i.e. Middle Class,
and so were all of his decuples.

Christianity was a religion of the Rich like all the Mystery Cults, like
Free Masonry is today. Slaves could not afford all of the initiation fees.

Maybe Christ saw the suffering of the people and felt ashamed like Buddah.


> >Healed the sick
>
> OK so far.
>
> >Fed 500 from a small basket of cakes
> >Walked on water.
> >
> Not passively, though. He walked on water to rescue a boatman who thought
> he -- Budha -- was in danger of drowning. The boatman had been giving him
> an argument the day before, maintaining that humans were basically
> selfish. But that night the river rose in flood and Buddha was cut off on
> a small island. What should he see when the sun rose but the boatman
> putting off from shore, despite the turbulent current, and shouting to
> Budha to come down to shore and he would pull in there and rescue him.
>
> So Buddha ran over the tossing waves and quickly jumped into the boat
> before it could be swamped by the flood. "Ah, friend boatman," he said,
> "what was it you were saying about how humans were basically selfish?"
>
> >Came to fulfill the law. Preached the establishment of a kingdom of
> >righteousness.
> >
> Nope. There were four earlier Buddhas (we only know the name of the most
> recent one, Dipankara) and at least one more (Maitreya) still to come.

That explains the Christian prophesies of the Second Comming.

> And the Buddhas manifest when the previous Buddha's teaching has died out
> or become corrupted; there is no question of any "Kingdom of
> Righteousness" being established.

But Revelation tells that Christ will only come again when man had become
wicked and forgotten God.

Of course, Buddah would not have been unfamiliar to the Jews in the
so-called exile in Babylon or shortly afterwards when Deuteronomy was
altered to claim that a new prophet will come to the Jews like Moses.

.


Aggie-Tom

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Nov 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/21/00
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"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:8vd7j6$t7d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,

>
> http://www.mustardseed.net/html/topaganism.html
>
> "The Cult of Cybele and Attis
>
> "Most of our information about the cult describes its practices during
> its later Roman period. But the details are slim and almost all the
> source material is relatively late, certainly datable long after the
> close of the New Testament canon. According to myth, Cybele loved a
> shepherd named Attis. Because Attis was unfaithful, she drove him
> insane. Overcome by madness, Attis castrated himself and died. This
> drove Cybele into great mourning, and it introduced death into the
> natural world. But then Cybele restored Attis to life, an event that
> also brought the world of nature back to life.

And where do you think this myth cam from. Its the same as the myth of
Adonis which was based on that of Tammuz. Its originally Babylonian and is
even mentions in the Old Testament !

On the facade of Isaiah 14 describes the fall of the king of Babylon into
Hades and the redemption of the children of Israel who are made the heirs to
Zion by Jehovah after the sins of their fathers have been blotted out. (This
text has to be read in the original Greek. None of the Translations in
English resemble the original text.)

The other much older story which it hides is the plagiarised Babylonian myth
of the Decent of Ishtar into the Underworld to rescue her lover Tammuz (who
the Greeks turned into Adonis) and return him to the land of the living.

It would not take a follower of Tammuz very long to recognise this myth
hidden in the Hebrew Bible and neither would it have taken any Jew
initiation into the Mysteries of Attis could long to recognise it.

That where Christianity came form.

Whats more the followers of Attis obtained from eating Pork, like the Jews,
since some believed that he was killed by a wild boar. So this cult would
have been the obvious choice of a Jew that wanted to join the equivalent of
a Masonic lodge.

>
> "The presuppositions of the interpreter tend to determine the language
> used to describe what followed Attis's death. Many writers refer
> carelessly to the "resurrection of Attis." But surely this is an
> exaggeration. There is no mention of anything resembling a resurrection
> in the myth, which suggests that Cybele could only preserve Attis's

UTTER POPPYCOCK

The Story of Attis is almost indistinguishable from that of Adonis and the
cult brought to Roman in 204BC to fulfil a prophesy and defeat Hannibal.

> dead body. Beyond this, there is mention of the body's hair continuing
> to grow, along with some movement of his little finger. In some
> versions of the myth, Attis's return to life took the form of his being
> changed into an evergreen tree. Since the basic idea underlying the

BULLSHIT.

Attis castrated himself under a Pine Tree and then died. The worshipers
attach an effigy to the Tree and then engaged in ritual castration and
mutilation or their arms and bodies to draw blood. Then the effigy was
buried and on the next day the Tomb was unseal and Attis was found
resurrected. (viz. Sir James Frazer - The Golden Bough)


> myth was the annual vegetation cycle, any resemblance to the bodily
> resurrection of Christ is greatly exaggerated.

LOL LOL LOL...

Not only did it resemble a bodily resurrection but Attis stated life as a
Spirit of th Forset. A spirit like the Spirit of Elohim in Genesis. Then he
is seen as a man born of a virgin by immaculate conception who then dies and
is resurrected as a God. We now have a Holy Trinity.

>
> "Eventually a public rehearsal of the Attis myth became an annual event
> in which worshipers shared in Attis's "immortality." Each spring the
> followers of Cybele would mourn for the dead Attis in acts of fasting
> and flagellation.
>
> "It was only during the later Roman celebrations (after A.D. 300) of
> the spring festival that anything remotely connected with a
> "resurrection" appears. The pine tree symbolizing Attis was cut down
> and then carried corpse-like into the sanctuary. Later in the prolonged
> festival, the tree was buried while the initiates worked themselves

Christian BALONEY. They used an effigy of the God.

> into a frenzy that included gashing themselves with knives. The next
> night, the "grave" of the tree was opened and the "resurrection of
> Attis" was celebrated. But the language of these late sources is highly
> ambiguous. In truth, no clear-cut, unambiguous reference to the
> supposed "resurrection" of Attis appears, even in the very late
> literature from the fourth century after Christ.

Rubbish. What literature there was, was destroyed by the Christians to
exterminate the cult that they arose from.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/21/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:8vd7j6$t7d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> "The Taurobolium


>
> "The best-known rite of the cult of the Great Mother was the
> taurobolium. It is important to note, however, that this ritual was not
> part of the cult in its earlier stages. It entered the religion
> sometime after the middle of the second century A.D. During the
> ceremony, initiates stood or reclined in a pit as a bull was
> slaughtered on a platform above them.[6] The initiate would then be
> bathed in the warm blood of the dying animal. It has been alleged that
> the taurobolium was a source for Christian language about being washed
> in the blood of the lamb (Rev. 7:14) or sprinkled with the blood of
> Jesus (1 Pet. 1:2). It has also been cited as the source for Paul's
> teaching in Romans 6:1-4, where he relates Christian baptism to the
> Christian's identification with Christ's death and resurrection.
>
> "No notion of death and resurrection was ever part of the taurobolium,
> however. The best available evidence requires us to date the ritual
> about one hundred years after Paul wrote Romans 6:1-4. Not one existing
> text supports the claim that the taurobolium memorialized the death and
> "resurrection" of Attis. The pagan rite could not possibly have been
> the source for Paul's teaching in Romans 6. Only near the end of the
> fourth century A.D. did the ritual add the notion of rebirth. Several

Christian BULLSHIT

Not only did the Taurobolium represent rebirth but it was practiced right on
top of the Vatican Hill in exactly the same spot where St Peters stand
today. Evidence of this was found when the complex was being enlarged in
1608/9. This was the universal Centre of the cult for which is spread across
the Romans Empire. Funny that aint it !!!

Before the Taurobolium the novice is initiated by eating out of a drum and
drinking out of symbol. The he is placed in a pit cover with a grating and
when the bull is slayed he wipes the blood all over him. Then he emerges
from the pit and is reborn to eternal life his sins cleansed. The to keep up
the pretence he is fed only on milk like a newly born babe.

There's your Christian faith at the centre of the Cult of Attis.

Makedon

unread,
Nov 21, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/21/00
to
Richard Eney wrote:

He is trying to open your eyes...

Giannis

unread,
Nov 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/22/00
to
So, you've read the standard, orthodox accounts of "Buddha." These count for
very little, since he is not a real person but a myth. Those who have studied
the issue in depth, rather than just reading popular accounts, will know that
Buddha's mother was in fact considered a virgin. This assertion was stated by
St. Jerome in the fourth century, as any true scholar of the subject should
know.

The rest of your comments show the same shallow investigation of the subject.
Although even your shallow, orthodox comments reflect that you have spent more
time on the subject than most.

For a deeper understanding of this subject, you should check out Anacalypsis by
Godfrey Higgins.

In article <3A1B395F...@Makedonija.com>, Makedon says...

Richard Eney

unread,
Nov 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/22/00
to
In article <8vg18...@drn.newsguy.com>, <Giannis Api...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>So, you've read the standard, orthodox accounts of "Buddha." These count for
>very little, since he is not a real person but a myth. Those who have studied
>the issue in depth, rather than just reading popular accounts, will know that
>Buddha's mother was in fact considered a virgin. This assertion was stated by
>St. Jerome in the fourth century, as any true scholar of the subject should
>know.
>
I doubt that any true scholar of the subject would take an assertion by
someone writing half a world away nine centuries after the fact as
establishing anything much. Certainly not if it were written by an ill
tempered ignoramus like St. Jerome. And (as somebody said about Jesus) if
Buddha is a myth, then there was somebody of the same name going around
doing the same actions at the same time.

The remark about "the standard, orthodox accounts" sounds like you are
adopting what the French cruelly call the _frondiste_ attitude: "What's
the accepted view? We're against it, whatever it may be". And even if
you accept the (very possibly true) Gravesian interpretation that "virgin"
originally meant "not under the control of a man", rather than "woman with
intact maidenhead", it would not apply to the Queen, who was the wife of
the King and not an autonomous individual.

>The rest of your comments show the same shallow investigation of the subject.
>

A schoolchildish gibe deserves only a schoolchildish retort:

Takes one to know one.

>For a deeper understanding of this subject, you should check out Anacalypsis by
>Godfrey Higgins.
>

This is some Monty Pythonesque joke, right?

-- Dick Eney
WWCD What would Cerridwen do?
Cook up an intelligence potion
...the demand for it is obviously great. The market...well, maybe.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/22/00
to

"Richard Eney" <dic...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8vh6qp$6p4$1...@saltmine.radix.net...

> In article <8vg18...@drn.newsguy.com>, <Giannis Api...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >So, you've read the standard, orthodox accounts of "Buddha." These count
for
> >very little, since he is not a real person but a myth. Those who have
studied
> >the issue in depth, rather than just reading popular accounts, will know
that
> >Buddha's mother was in fact considered a virgin. This assertion was
stated by
> >St. Jerome in the fourth century, as any true scholar of the subject
should
> >know.
> >
> I doubt that any true scholar of the subject would take an assertion by
> someone writing half a world away nine centuries after the fact as
> establishing anything much. Certainly not if it were written by an ill
> tempered ignoramus like St. Jerome. And (as somebody said about Jesus) if

Of cause he was. Couldn't tell the difference between Caelo and Caelum for a
star a thus made and Engraving out of Heaven and thus created Lucifer..


> Buddha is a myth, then there was somebody of the same name going around
> doing the same actions at the same time.
>
> The remark about "the standard, orthodox accounts" sounds like you are
> adopting what the French cruelly call the _frondiste_ attitude: "What's
> the accepted view? We're against it, whatever it may be". And even if
> you accept the (very possibly true) Gravesian interpretation that "virgin"
> originally meant "not under the control of a man", rather than "woman with

No its either or both. "not under the control of a man and/or not having
been penetrated and damaged"

> intact maidenhead", it would not apply to the Queen, who was the wife of
> the King and not an autonomous individual.

If she was Queen then Virgin would have been used in the same way as of the
Prostitute Priestesses of Ishtar.

> >The rest of your comments show the same shallow investigation of the
subject.
> >

> A schoolchildish gibe deserves only a schoolchildish retort:
>
> Takes one to know one.
>

> >For a deeper understanding of this subject, you should check out
Anacalypsis by
> >Godfrey Higgins.
> >

EMM

unread,
Nov 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/23/00
to
AGGIE-TOM, THE FISH & CHIPS SELLERS FROM ENGLAND HAVE EXPRESSED VIEWS
AGAINST HELLENISM SO DON'T TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY


dpwozney

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 12:47:57 AM11/24/00
to
In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> PAGAN CHRISTS
>
> At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
...

> =======================================
>
> ZOROASTER
>
> Asia minor
>
> Born of a virgin.
> Baptized in a river.
>
> In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. Began his
> ministry at age 30.
>
> Tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
> Cast out demons.
> Restored the sight of a blind man.
>
> Revealed the mysteries of heaven, hell, resurrection, judgment,
> salvation and the apocalypse.
>
> His followers celebrated a sacred eucharistic meal.
>
> Called: "The Word made flesh,"
>
> =================================

The problem with everything stated here about Zoroaster is that
it is difficult to know the extent to which the later Zoroastrian
religion of the Sasanian period (224-651 AD) accurately
reflected the actual life and original teachings of Zoroaster.

Another question is the extent to which the sources, the Avesta
(the Zoroastrian scriptures) and the Gathas (older hymns), offer
an authentic guide to Zoroaster's original ideas.

The Gathas and the Avesta were not written down until after the
New Testament was written.

"His (Zoroaster's) teachings were handed down orally in his
community from generation to generation, and were at last
committed to writing under the Sasanians, rulers of the third
Iranian empire. The language then spoken was Middle Persian,
also called Pahlavi; and the Pahlavi books provide invaluable
keys for interpreting the magnificent obscurities of the Gathas
themselves."
("Zoroastrians, Their Religious Beliefs and Practices", p.17,
Mary Boyce, 1979)

So the actual teachings and doctrine of Zoroastrianism were not
documented prior to the Sasanian period (224-651 AD). An argument
may be made that Zoroastrianism borrowed concepts and ideas from
Judaism and Christianity.

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 1:15:53 AM11/24/00
to
In article <8vets9$ek4$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> Not only did the Taurobolium represent rebirth but it was practiced
> right on top of the Vatican Hill in exactly the same spot where
> St Peters stand today. Evidence of this was found when the complex
> was being enlarged in 1608/9. This was the universal Centre of the
> cult for which is spread across the Romans Empire. Funny that

> aint it !!!
>
> Before the Taurobolium the novice is initiated by eating out of a
> drum and drinking out of symbol. The he is placed in a pit cover
> with a grating and when the bull is slayed he wipes the blood all
> over him. Then he emerges from the pit and is reborn to eternal
> life his sins cleansed. The to keep up the pretence he is fed
> only on milk like a newly born babe.
>
> There's your Christian faith at the centre of the Cult of Attis.

Prior to 315 AD, the Roman empire was persecuting the Christians,
so Rome could hardly have been considered to be "the centre" of
the Christian faith.

Today, there are millions of Christians that do not consider "the
Vatican Hill" and "St Peters" to be "the centre" of their Christian
faith.

I do not consider "the Vatican Hill" and "St Peters" to be "the
centre" of the Christian faith, so your attempt to identify your
alleged "centre of the cult of Attis" with your alleged "centre
of the Christian faith" must be judged to fail.

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 2:20:53 AM11/24/00
to
In article <8vesgf$cb0$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> And where do you think this myth cam from. Its the same as the myth
> of Adonis which was based on that of Tammuz. Its originally
> Babylonian and is even mentions in the Old Testament !
>
> On the facade of Isaiah 14 describes the fall of the king of
> Babylon into Hades and the redemption of the children of Israel
> who are made the heirs to Zion by Jehovah after the sins of their
> fathers have been blotted out. (This text has to be read in the
> original Greek. None of the Translations in English resemble the
> original text.)
>
> The other much older story which it hides is the plagiarised
> Babylonian myth of the Decent of Ishtar into the Underworld to
> rescue her lover Tammuz (who the Greeks turned into Adonis) and
> return him to the land of the living.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
"In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged
resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though
the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "The
Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N.
Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves
conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld,
Inanna sent him there as her substitute (cf. my article, "Tammuz and
the Bible," Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXXIV [1965], 283-90). A
line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence
that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister
take his place for half the year (cf. S. N. Kramer, Bulletin of the
American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 183 [1966], 31)."


("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)

> It would not take a follower of Tammuz very long to recognise this


> myth hidden in the Hebrew Bible and neither would it have taken any
> Jew initiation into the Mysteries of Attis could long to recognise
> it.
>
> That where Christianity came form.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
"Tammuz/Dumuzi (p. 525f). The death of Tammuz is fairly widely
attested--his rebirth is not. "The ritual evidence is unambiguously
negative...In all of these varied reports, the character of the ritual
is the same. It is a relentlessly funereal cult...There is no evidence
for any cultic celebration of a rebirth of Tammuz apart from late
Christian texts where he is identified with Adonis...Even more
detrimental to the dying and rising hypothesis, the actions performed
on Tammuz in these three strophes are elements from the funeral
ritual...."
("Dying and Rising Gods", by J. Smith)

> The Story of Attis is almost indistinguishable from that of Adonis
> and the cult brought to Roman in 204BC to fulfil a prophesy and
> defeat Hannibal.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
"Tammuz was identified by later writers with the Phoenician Adonis,
the beautiful youth beloved of Aphrodite. According to Jerome, Hadrian
desecrated the cave in Bethlehem associated with Jesus' birth by
consecrating it with a shrine of Tammuz-Adonis. Although his cult
spread from Byblos to the GrecoRoman world, the worship of Adonis was
never important and was restricted to women. P. Lambrechts has shown
that there is no trace of a resurrection in the early texts or
pictorial representations of Adonis; the four texts that speak of his
resurrection are quite late, dating from the second to the fourth
centuries A.D. ("La 'resurrection' d'Adonis," in Melanges Isidore Levy,
1955, pp. 207-40)."


("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
"Adonis (p.522). "There is no suggestion of Adonis rising (in either
the Panyasisian form or the Ovidian form of the myth)"..... "Only late
texts, largely influenced by or written by Christians, claim that there
is a subsequent day of celebration for Adonis having been raised from
the dead." (op.cit.)."

> Attis castrated himself under a Pine Tree and then died. The
> worshipers attach an effigy to the Tree and then engaged in ritual
> castration and mutilation or their arms and bodies to draw blood.
> Then the effigy was buried and on the next day the Tomb was unseal
> and Attis was found resurrected. (viz. Sir James Frazer - The Golden
> Bough)

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
"The theory that there was a widespread worship of a dying and rising
fertility god-Tammuz in Mesopotamia, Adonis in Syria, Attis in Asia
Minor, and Osiris in Egypt-was propounded by Sir James Frazer, who
gathered a mass of parallels in part IV of his monumental work The
Golden Bough ( 1906, reprinted in 1961). This view has been adopted by
many who little realize its fragile foundations. The explanation of
the Christian Resurrection by such a comparative-religions approach
has even been reflected in official Soviet propaganda (cf. Paul de
Surgy, editor, The Resurrection and Modern Biblical Thought, 1966,
pp. 1, 131)."


("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/24/00
to
In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> PAGAN CHRISTS
>
> At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but the
> general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
...

> =======================================
>
> KRISHNA
>
> India
>
> Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to
> pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna
> was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his
> birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
"According to the story, the mother had six normal children before the
7th and 8th 'special' kids--a rather clear indication that the mom was
not a virgin when she conceived Krishna."

> King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the
> massacre of all male children born during the same night at He.
>
> Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead,
> healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
>
> The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended.
> Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but
> descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and
> ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus'
> descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the
> quick and the dead.


ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA

"The basic sources of Krishna's mythology are the epic Mahabharata and
its 5th-century-ad appendix, the Harivamsa, and the Puranas,
particularly Books 10 and 11 of the Bhagavata-Purana."

"The poem (Mahabharata) reached its present form about AD 400."

"Puranas are connected in subject with the Mahabharata ("Great Epic of
the Bharata Dynasty") and have some relationship to the lawbooks
(Dharma-sastras). Around this central core has amalgamated much other
material of religious concern during the period c. AD 400 to c. 1000"

"Scholars are in general agreement that the Bhagavata-Purana was
probably composed about the 10th century (AD)".


Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2000

"The Mahabharata was composed beginning about 400 BC and received
numerous additions until about AD 400."

"Scholars, however, regard the Puranas as having been compiled by many
hands between the 4th and the 16th centuries AD."


http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html

"Ananda K. Coomaraswamy and Sister Nivedita in Myths of the Hindus and
Buddhists (Dover: 1967, repub. of 1913), pp.217ff, point out that the
childhood legends of Krisha did not begin surfacing until AFTER the
Gita of 200-300 a.d., with most of the child-lore originating closer to
1000 a.d. and later (in the bhakti developments)."

"Much of the material about him (Krishna) is LATER THAN the NT(!)--for
example, the beautiful work the Bhagavadgita, in which he is the main
speaker, is dated to be a 2nd century a.d. insertion into the older
epic the Mahabharata [WR:Eliade:133; WR:SW:91f; WR:RT:105f]."

"... to argue that since Jesus did miracles and so did the earlier
figure of Krishna, the Jesus 'legend' must have borrowed from the
Krishna 'legend' is simply fallacious. ..."


> Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.
>
> =======================================

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
"This is a grossly naïve understanding of the Hindu pantheon! The Hindu
pantheon--to the extent it can be called a panTHEOn at all--differs
from the Christian trinity substantially. The biggest problem with the
assertion, however, is that it is simply wrong! Although the Hindu
pantheon has changed considerably over over time, Krsna has NEVER been
the 'second person of a 3-in-1'. ..."

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/24/00
to
In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> PAGAN CHRISTS
>
> At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
...

> =======================================
>
> OSIRIS
>
> Egypt
>
> He came to fulfill the law.

What law? Describe it.

> Called "KRST," the "Anointed One."
>
> Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger,
> with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men.

Can you provide specific references and sources of information for
the above? Can you prove that the story that contains the above
information has existed unchanged for at least the past two thousand
years?

> Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.")

According to "Egyptian Mythology," in Microsoft Encarta, Osiris's
father's name was "Geb". What does this translate to?

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "Geb, also called Keb,
in ancient Egyptian religion, the god of the earth, the physical
support of the world. Geb constituted, along with Nut, his sister,
the second generation in the Ennead (group of nine gods) of
Heliopolis. In Egyptian art Geb was often depicted lying by the
feet of Shu, the air god, with Nut, the goddess of the sky, arched
above them. Geb was usually portrayed as a man without any
distinguishing characteristics, but at times he was represented with
his head surmounted by a goose, the hieroglyph of his name. He
was the third divine ruler among the gods; the human pharaohs
claimed to be descended from him, and the royal throne was referred
to as "the throne of Geb.""

This above description certainly is completely different than the
"Joseph" in the Bible.

> At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was
> baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

http://www.mustardseed.net/html/topaganism.html

"Some writers go even further and refer to the alleged "resurrection"
of Osiris. One liberal scholar illustrates how biased some writers are
when they describe the pagan myth in Christian language: "The dead body
of Osiris floated in the Nile and he returned to life, this being
accomplished by a baptism in the waters of the Nile.[3]"

"This biased and sloppy use of language suggests three misleading
analogies between Osiris and Christ: (1) a savior god dies and (2) then
experiences a resurrection accompanied by (3) water baptism. But the
alleged similarities, as well as the language used to describe them,
turn out to be fabrications of the modern scholar and are not part of
the original myth. Comparisons between the resurrection of Jesus and
the resuscitation of Osiris are greatly exaggerated.[4] Not every
version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply
becomes king of the underworld. Equally far-fetched are attempts to
find an analogue of Christian baptism in the Osiris myth.[5] The fate
of Osiris's coffin in the Nile is as relevant to baptism as the sinking
of Atlantis."
(Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Philosophy?, by Ronald Nash)

> Baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the
> Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) [note by
> Aggie-tom: Annas was the name one of trhe High Priests at the time
> of John - Ioannos - son of Annas ie Anup, Caiaphas being the other
> High Priest. Both names look Egyptian.]

Provide your documentation and references for the names "Iarutana"
and "Anup the Baptizer".

> Traveled widely, taught men and "tamed them by music and gentleness,
> not by force of arms" [Plutarch]
>
> Performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead.
>
> Walked on water.

Again, provide specific references and sources of information for
the above. Also, can you prove the stories that contain the above
information has existed unchanged for at leat the past two thousand
years?

> Betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of
> the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the
> third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
"But it is a cardinal misconception to equate the Egyptian view of the
afterlife with the "resurrection" of Hebrew-Christian traditions. In
order to achieve immortality the Egyptian had to fulfill three
conditions: (1) His body had to be preserved, hence mummification. (2)
Nourishment had to be provided either by the actual offering of daily
bread and beer, or by the magical depiction of food on the walls of the
tomb. (3) Magical spells had to be interred with the dead-Pyramid Texts
in the Old Kingdom, Coffin Texts in the Middle Kingdom, and the Book of
the Dead in the New Kingdom. Moreover, the Egyptian did not rise from
the dead; separate entities of his personality such as his Ba and his
Ka continued to hover about his body."

"Nor is Osiris, who is always portrayed in a mummified form, an
inspiration for the resurrected Christ. As Roland de Vaux has observed:

"What is meant of Osiris being "raised to life"? Simply that, thanks to
the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb
which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will
never again come among the living and will reign only over the
dead....This revived god is in reality a "mummy" god [The Bible and the
Ancient Near East, 1971, p. 236]."
(Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?, Edwin M. Yamauchi)

> His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His
> disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
"The Egyptians, as noted in our discussion of Osiris above, did have
a more optimistic view of their afterlife. But to call the survival of
the Ba and Ka, hovering over the mummified body, a "resurrection" is to
obscure the essential differences in concepts."
(Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?, Edwin M. Yamauchi)

> Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed
> Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth."
>
> Expected to reign a thousand years.
>
> =======================================

Again, provide documentation and the complete story that contains
the above claims. Can you prove that the story that contains the
above information has existed unchanged for at least the past two
thousand years?

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 24, 2000, 5:56:01 PM11/24/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:8vl4sk$hvd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

What does that prove apart from that the myth of Tammuz would now concur
100% with that of Adonis who also spends half the year in the underworld and
the other half on earth.

In any care the most obvious text for the ending of this myth is in the
Bible itself.

Isaiah 14: The decent of Ishtar.

ORIGIANL MAIN NARRATIVE of Ishtar myth

9 o adhv katwyen epikranyh sunanthsav soi sunhgeryhsan soi pantev oi
gigantev oi arxantev thv ghv oi egeirantev ek twn yronwn autwn pantav
basileiv eynwn

Hades from beneath is provoked to meat you, and for you have come all the
Giants and Archons of the earth, the founders of the thrones of the kings of
nations

ORIGIANL MAIN NARRATIVE...

10 pantev apokriyhsontai kai erousin soi kai su ealwv wsper kai hmeiv en
hmin de katelogisyhv

they all come out and say to you, you have been taken, even as we, for we
are (now) reckoned

ORIGIANL MAIN NARRATIVE...

11 katebh de eiv adou h doxa sou h pollh sou eufrosunh upokatw sou
strwsousin shqin kai to katakalumma sou skwlhx

coming down to Hades, is your glory, your great fertility, underneath you
spreads out decay and you are flooded with worms.

CORRUPTED NARRATIVE...

{12 pwv exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforov o prwi anatellwn sunetribh eiv
thn ghn o apostellwn prov panta ta eynh

how did it fall from Uranus [how did (your story) unfold form Uranus], the
dawn-bringer, the morning riser, procreating on the earth (is) the one who
goes to all nations.

CORRUPTED NARRATIVE...

13 su de eipav en th dianoia sou eiv ton ouranon anabhsomai epanw twn
astrwn tou ouranou yhsw ton yronon mou kayiw en orei uqhlw epi ta orh ta
uqhla ta prov borran

for you said in your heart, to Uranus I ascend, above the star of Uranus I
set my throne, to sit on a high mountain among the highest mountains to the
north

CORRUPTED NARRATIVE...

14 anabhsomai epanw twn nefelwn esomai omoiov tw uqistw

I rise up above the clouds: I live like the Most High.

REPEATED MAIN NARRATIVE...

15 nun de eiv adou katabhsh kai eiv ta yemelia thv ghv

now but to Hades you go down and to the foundations of earth

ORIGIANL MAIN NARRATIVE...

16 oi idontev se yaumasousin epi soi kai erousin outov o anyrwpov o
paroxunwn thn ghn seiwn basileiv

the witnesses there wonder at you and say this one is the motivation of
earth, mover of kings

ORIGIANL MAIN NARRATIVE...

17 o yeiv thn oikoumenhn olhn erhmon kai tav poleiv kayeilen touv en
epagwgh ouk elusen

the maker [goddess] of everything all desolate, who cleaned out its cities
and doesn’t come to free anyone

BROKEN MAIN NARRATIVE...

18 pantev oi basileiv twn eynwn ekoimhyhsan en timh anyrwpov en tw oikw
autou

so always the kings of nations will sleep in glory, every man in his own
house

BROKEN MAIN NARRATIVE...

19 su de rifhsh en toiv oresin wv nekrov ebdelugmenov meta pollwn
teynhkotwn ekkekenthmenwn macairaiv katabainontwn eiv adou on tropon imation
en aimati pefurmenon ouk estai kayaron

but you suck of the desire of death, enveloped with many craftsmen and
skilful swordsmen that go down to Hades, who’s manner of garment is immersed
in blood that is not clean

BROKEN MAIN NARRATIVE...

20 outwv oude su esh kayarov dioti thn ghn mou apwlesav kai ton laon mou
apekteinav ou mh meinhv eiv ton aiwna cronon sperma ponhron

neither him nor yourself are clean, because my earth is bereaved and my
people slain, so don’t stay forever perspicacious [scheming] seed

ORIGINAL RESURRECTION NARRATIVE...

21 etoimason ta tekna sou sfaghnai taiv amartiaiv tou patrov sou ina mh
anastwsin kai thn ghn klhronomhswsin kai emplhswsi thn ghn polewn

make ready your children, blot out the sins of your fathers, that they shall
not re-appear, and inherit the earth and fill it up with cities

CORRUPTED RESURRECTION NARRATIVE...

22 kai epanasthsomai autoiv legei kuriov sabawy kai apolw autwn onoma kai
kataleimma kai sperma tade legei kuriov

I will raise them up says Jehovah Saboath and release their names and
essence and seed: so saith Jehovah

OUT OF SEQUENCE NARRATIVE...

23 kai yhsw thn babulwnian erhmon wste katoikein ecinouv kai estai eiv
ouden kai yhsw authn phlou barayron eiv apwleian

and I (will) make Babylon a desert, so that all that come there come to
nothing, and make it a chasm in the sand to finish it.

OUT OF SEQUENCE PARTIAL NARRATIVE...

31 ololuzete pulai polewn kekragetwsan poleiv tetaragmenai oi allofuloi
pantev oti kapnov apo borra ercetai kai ouk estin tou einai

holler gates of cities, crying are the cities walled-in, the Philistines
as-well, since smoke form the north comes and nothing is to be of it.

CORRUPTED RESURRECTION NARRATIVE...

32 kai ti apokriyhsontai basileiv eynwn oti kuriov eyemeliwsen siwn kai di
autou swyhsontai oi tapeinoi tou laou

and what answer the kings of nations, that Jehovah founded Sion and it by
him shall save the humblest of people.


SUMMERY combining Babylonian sources

Ishtar descends into the underworld to rescue Tammuz. While she is there the
corps fail the cities become desolate, the gates rattle and all procreation
ends so she is implored to come back. When she returns the world shakes of
its past sins to honour her and the process of life begins again. Tammuz is
helped to escape the Underworld by the other Gods, and the ensuing battle
incurs much bloodshed that Ishtar ends up covered and wading in blood form
head to toe, and this is why she is represented this way in her Temples.

The initiates of Attis, equivalent to Adonis, were Men.

> that there is no trace of a resurrection in the early texts or
> pictorial representations of Adonis; the four texts that speak of his
> resurrection are quite late, dating from the second to the fourth
> centuries A.D. ("La 'resurrection' d'Adonis," in Melanges Isidore Levy,
> 1955, pp. 207-40)."
> ("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)
>
> http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
> "Adonis (p.522). "There is no suggestion of Adonis rising (in either
> the Panyasisian form or the Ovidian form of the myth)"..... "Only late
> texts, largely influenced by or written by Christians, claim that there
> is a subsequent day of celebration for Adonis having been raised from
> the dead." (op.cit.)."

Since all of the early texts were destroyed by the Christians the form the
worship of Attis/Adonis took has to be reconstructed from the little thats
left.


>
> > Attis castrated himself under a Pine Tree and then died. The
> > worshipers attach an effigy to the Tree and then engaged in ritual
> > castration and mutilation or their arms and bodies to draw blood.
> > Then the effigy was buried and on the next day the Tomb was unseal
> > and Attis was found resurrected. (viz. Sir James Frazer - The Golden
> > Bough)
>
> http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
> "The theory that there was a widespread worship of a dying and rising
> fertility god-Tammuz in Mesopotamia, Adonis in Syria, Attis in Asia
> Minor, and Osiris in Egypt-was propounded by Sir James Frazer, who
> gathered a mass of parallels in part IV of his monumental work The
> Golden Bough ( 1906, reprinted in 1961). This view has been adopted by

reprinted in 1994, 2000 also

> many who little realize its fragile foundations. The explanation of
> the Christian Resurrection by such a comparative-religions approach
> has even been reflected in official Soviet propaganda (cf. Paul de
> Surgy, editor, The Resurrection and Modern Biblical Thought, 1966,
> pp. 1, 131)."
> ("Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?", Edwin M. Yamauchi)

Oh so the Christians were the first to invent resurrection were they.
LOL....

The religion of Osiris follows the same pattern as all of the above. The
Christians just borrowed it.

Lets add to these the story of Herakles, half man half god 1500 years before
Christ. Pelops killed and chopped up by his father and resurrected by the
Gods, 1700 years before Christ. The story of Persephone who spends half the
year with Pluto/Hades and half with Demeter, which is based on that of
Ishtar/Inanna 3000 years before Christ.

Theres you Christianity. Or rather the source of Messianic Judaism.


Aggie-Tom

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Nov 24, 2000, 8:30:35 PM11/24/00
to
"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:8vlemb$omc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > PAGAN CHRISTS
> >


OK heres the Myth of Oraris based on Plutarch, who it is generally agreed
based his treatise De Iside on earlier Pyramid Texts. The resurrection story
is based on native Egyptian accounts.

Like Tammuz Osiris was originality an agricultural deity who dies with the
vegetation and rises with its rebirth. He also presides over the judgement
of the dead like Christ.

Osiris was the son of Seb (Geb or Keb; Sir James Frazer) the Earth God an
the Sky Goddess Nut identified by the Greeks with Chronos and Rea.
(According to Eastmans bible Dictionary Joseph means "Remover or increaser",
and taking into account the story of Joseph in the OT who was put in charge
of Pharaohs Grain silos, this would indicate an association with Ged the
fertilising Earth God who Joseph would have been a priest of.)

When the Sun God Ra discovered Nut's infidelity he pronounced a curse that
Nut would be delivered of the child in No Month and No Year. Fortunately
Nut's other lover Thoth (Hermes) had won from the moon goddess 5 extra day
that were added to the end Egyptian year of 300 days but regarded outside of
it. Osiris was born in the first of these. At his nativity a voice cried out
proclaiming that the Lord of All had come into the world.

On the 2nd day was born Horus the elder then the next day saw the conductive
births of Set, Isis and Nephthys.

Osiris married his sister Isis, and Set married Nephthys.

Reigning on the earth Osiris led the people of Egypt out of savagery and
give them laws and taught them worship of the Gods and also gave them
agriculture. Osiris wanting to communicated these and other benefits across
the world left Isis to rule Egypt and travelled the world.

Thence originates the passage form Isaiah 14 which reads:

Isaiah 14:12 pwv exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn prosv panta ta eynh - how did (your
story) unfold form Uranus, the dawn-bringer, the morning riser, procreating


on the earth (is) the one who goes to all nations.

In the 28th year of his reign, Osiris was slain at a feast by his brother
Set in collusion with 72 other after being induced to be shut up in a chest
made to his length to try it for size, and which was then thrown into the
Nile. The chest floated down the Nile entered the Mediterranean and reach
Byblos where it was foin by Isis. A sycamore tree had now grown around the
chest of Osiris called the "drowned one" in the Pyramid Texts but before
Isis could obtain it from the King of Byblos, Set had got there first and
cut up the body into pieces and scattered them across Egypt. Isis then
recovered the pieces apart from the Phallus which had be consumed by a Fish,
put them together and assisted by her sister Nephthys and others restored
Osiris to life by performing the rituals of Egyptian mumification. Osiris
then became King of the region of departed spirits in the west and was know
as Unnefer or the Good Being.

In the myth of Osisrs the Egyptians believed in life everlasting beyond the
Grave.

You can get more infomation from Frazers "the Golden Bough" and S H Hooke's
"Middle Eastern Mythology"

More Reading at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/25/00
to
In article <8vlemb$omc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

dpwozney <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote:
> In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > PAGAN CHRISTS
> >
> > At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> > Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> > rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> > the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
> ...
> > =======================================
> >
> > OSIRIS
> >
...

> > Traveled widely, taught men and "tamed them by music and
> > gentleness, not by force of arms" [Plutarch]
> >
> > Performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the
> > dead.
> >
> > Walked on water.
>
> Again, provide specific references and sources of information for
> the above. Also, can you prove the stories that contain the above
> information has existed unchanged for at leat the past two thousand
> years?

Plutarch (46 A.D. - c.125 A.D.) describes the myth of Isis and Osiris
in his treatise "On Isis and Osiris". Apuleius (124 A.D. - c.170 A.D.)
wrote about the ceremony of initiation into the mysteries of Isis.

A lot of our current understanding of Egyptian mythology comes from
Plutarch and Apuleius, who wrote *after* Christ was on earth, and
*after* the New Testament was written.

Plutarch and Apuleius did not understand the nature of, and were
unable to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphic writing. They did not
obtain guidance on interpreting hieroglyphics from their Egyptian
contemporaries.

dpwozney

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Nov 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/26/00
to
In article <8vn4oh$n4c$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:

> OK heres the Myth of Oraris based on Plutarch, who it is generally
> agreed based his treatise De Iside on earlier Pyramid Texts. The
> resurrection story is based on native Egyptian accounts.

The pyramid texts were "discovered" after the New Testament was
written. Plutarch (46 AD - c. 125 AD) described the myth of Isis and
Osiris, *after* the New Testament was written, in his treatise "De
Iside et Osiride" (On Isis and Osiris). Plutarch did not understand
Egyptian hieroglyphics, and did not obtain guidance from his Egyptian
contemporaries.

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/5/0,5716,41255+1+40385,00.htm
l?query=hieroglyphics

"It is arguable whether the ancient Greeks or Romans understood
hieroglyphics. The Greeks almost certainly did not, since, from their
viewpoint, hieroglyphics were not phonetic signs but symbols of a more
abstruse and allegorical nature. The humanist revival of the European
Middle Ages, although it produced a set of Italian-designed
hieroglyphics, gave no further insight into the original Egyptian
ones."

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,119412+18+110477,00.
html

"With the possible exception of Pythagoras, no Greek understood the
nature of hieroglyphic writing. The Greeks did not obtain guidance from
their Egyptian contemporaries, some of whom even lived on Italian soil
and wrote proper hieroglyphic inscriptions on Roman obelisks. Rather,
the Greek tradition taught that hieroglyphs were symbolic signs or
allegories. The Egyptian-born Greek philosopher Plotinus interpreted
hieroglyphic writing entirely from the viewpoint of his esoteric
philosophy. Only one of the numerous works on the hieroglyphic script
written in late antiquity has been preserved: the Hieroglyphica of
Horapollon, a Greek Egyptian who probably lived in the 5th century AD.
Horapollon made use of a good source, but he himself certainly could
not read hieroglyphic writing and began with the false hypothesis of
the Greek tradition, namely, that hieroglyphs were symbols and
allegories, not phonetic signs."

> Reigning on the earth Osiris led the people of Egypt out of savagery
> and give them laws and taught them worship of the Gods and also gave
> them agriculture. Osiris wanting to communicated these and other
> benefits across the world left Isis to rule Egypt and travelled
> the world.
>
> Thence originates the passage form Isaiah 14 which reads:
>
> Isaiah 14:12 pwv exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
> sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn prosv panta ta eynh - how did
> (your story) unfold form Uranus, the dawn-bringer, the morning riser,
> procreating on the earth (is) the one who goes to all nations.

The Young's Literal Translation (YLT) for Isaiah 14:12 states:

"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!
Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

The YLT translation (and other English translations derived from the
Hebrew Masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint) are very different than
your English translation.

I am unaware of any evidence that the Old & New Testament authors
"borrowed" ideas from the myth of Osiris. An argument may be made that
Plutarch borrowed ideas from Christian teaching.

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/29/00
to
In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> PAGAN CHRISTS
>
> At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
> Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:
...

> Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to
> the Heavenly world.
...
> OSIRIS
...

> Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr)
> and was resurrected.
>
> His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His
> disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.

How can Osiris's resurrection be celebrated if pieces of his body
are still buried all over Egypt?

The story of Osiris is that Seth buried 14 pieces of his body in 14
different parts of Egypt. Isis set out on her travels to recover her
husband's body and she found all of the 14 pieces of her husband's
body. Whenever she found a piece, she reburied it properly there.
This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris was
buried.

Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.

According to Alexander Hislop, in his book "The Two Babylons",
" ... this is nothing more than Egypt could do in regard to the
relics of Osiris. Egypt was covered with sepulchres of its martyred
god; and many a leg and arm and skull, all vouched to be genuine,
were exhibited in the rival burying-places for the adoration of
the Egyptian faithful." (Chapter V, Section II, Relic Worship)

My research indicates that some of the places, where parts of
Osiris's body are still buried, appear to be:

1. Philae, an island in the Nile River in southern Egypt.
2. Abydos, a prominent sacred city, located in the low desert west
of the Nile near al-Balyana.
3. Sais, an ancient Egyptian city (Sai) in the Nile Delta on the
Canopic (Rosetta) Branch of the Nile River.
4. Giza, deep underneath one of the Giza pyramids.

The people of Egypt participated in a national pilgrimage to the
sepulchre of Osiris at Philae, which was revered by all the priests
throughout Egypt. A tomb of Osiris was visited at the Abydos temple;
pilgrims from all over Egypt came to Osiris' festival there. Osiris's
sepulchre at Sais was also respected. On February 17, 2000, the BBC
reported that the tomb of Osiris was found buried deep underneath one
of the Giza pyramids.

So, quite clearly, unlike Christ, Osiris was not resurrected and did
not rise from the dead.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/29/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:902e6s$cml$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > PAGAN CHRISTS
> >
> > At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> > Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> > rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> > the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
> > Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:
> ...

> > Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to
> > the Heavenly world.
> ...
> > OSIRIS
> ...

> > Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr)
> > and was resurrected.
> >
> > His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His
> > disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.
>
> How can Osiris's resurrection be celebrated if pieces of his body
> are still buried all over Egypt?

Simple those are effigies.

>
> The story of Osiris is that Seth buried 14 pieces of his body in 14
> different parts of Egypt. Isis set out on her travels to recover her
> husband's body and she found all of the 14 pieces of her husband's
> body. Whenever she found a piece, she reburied it properly there.
> This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris was
> buried.
>
> Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
> sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.

Nope.... After Isis found the pieces she made copies and got the priests to
promise not to reveal what she buried. (See Robert Frazer).

After she collected all of Osirs bits minus the phallus which was eaten by a
fish, so she made a copy of that to bolt on, she put them together wrapped
the in bandages, (i.e. the swaddling cloths of Jesus) and pronounced the
ritual of rebirth. So Osirs came back to life long before any Christian
Christ.

John Donchig

unread,
Nov 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/29/00
to
Aggie-Tom wrote:

> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> news:902e6s$cml$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8v5g5v$pei$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> > "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:

> > > PAGAN CHRISTS
> > >
> > > At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the
> > > Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and
> > > rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but
> > > the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar.
> > > Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:

> > ...


> > > Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to
> > > the Heavenly world.

> > ...
> > > OSIRIS
> > ...


> > > Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr)
> > > and was resurrected.
> > >
> > > His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His
> > > disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter.
> >

> > How can Osiris's resurrection be celebrated if pieces of his body
> > are still buried all over Egypt?
>
> Simple those are effigies.

What is the reason behind your thinking they are effigies? Is it simple
conjecture, or do you have something to back up your claim?

> > The story of Osiris is that Seth buried 14 pieces of his body in 14
> > different parts of Egypt. Isis set out on her travels to recover her
> > husband's body and she found all of the 14 pieces of her husband's
> > body. Whenever she found a piece, she reburied it properly there.
> > This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris was
> > buried.
> >
> > Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
> > sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.
>
> Nope.... After Isis found the pieces she made copies and got the priests to
> promise not to reveal what she buried. (See Robert Frazer).

One redaction of a myth cannot and should not be used to interpret the myth in
its entirety. Or so they teach us in school.

John
--
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become
a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

dpwozney

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Nov 29, 2000, 11:07:13 PM11/29/00
to
In article <903k5s$62l$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> news:902e6s$cml$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
...

> > This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris was
> > buried.
> >
> > Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
> > sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.
>
> Nope.... After Isis found the pieces she made copies and got the
> priests to promise not to reveal what she buried. (See Robert
> Frazer).

"Wherefore to this day each of the priests imagines that Osiris is
buried in his country, and they honour the beasts that were consecrated
in the beginning, and when the animals die the priests renew at their
burial the mourning for Osiris."
...
"Such is the myth or legend of Osiris, as told by Greek writers and
eked out by more or less fragmentary notices or allusions in native
Egyptian literature. A long inscription in the temple at Denderah
has preserved a list of the god’s graves, and other texts mention the
parts of his body which were treasured as holy relics in each of the
sanctuaries. Thus his heart was at Athribis, his backbone at Busiris,
his neck at Letopolis, and his head at Memphis." (Sir James George
Frazer, The Golden Bough (1922))

> After she collected all of Osirs bits minus the phallus which was
> eaten by a fish, so she made a copy of that to bolt on, she put
> them together wrapped the in bandages, (i.e. the swaddling cloths
> of Jesus) and pronounced the ritual of rebirth. So Osirs came back
> to life long before any Christian Christ.

The stories of the rebirth of Osiris, and of his coming back to life,
and of his astral transfiguration into a star being, as described in
the pyramid and funerary texts, appear to be inconsistent with the
historical understanding that the Egyptian priests mourned over the
holy relics of Osiris's body parts in each of the sanctuaries
in diverse locations throughout Egypt.

These pyramid and funerary texts, that describe such stories, were
"discovered" long after Christ's resurrection.

dpwozney

unread,
Nov 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/30/00
to
In article <904jpe$74t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

dpwozney <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote:
> In article <903k5s$62l$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> > news:902e6s$cml$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
...
> > > This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris
> > > was buried.
> > >
> > > Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
> > > sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.
> >
> > Nope.... After Isis found the pieces she made copies and got the
> > priests to promise not to reveal what she buried. (See Robert
> > Frazer).

According to Diodorus Siculus, quoted by Frazer, the priests of the
time of Isis, that Isis talked to directly, believed falsely they had
been entrusted with the entire body of Osiris to bury. Instead they
received one genuine part and the rest of it was "human images out of
waxes and spices". The reason, why Isis required the priests to
promise not to reveal to anyone what they had been entrusted with,
is that she did not want them figuring out that they had each
received just only one genuine part.

Frazer quotes Diodorus Siculus: " 'She moulded human images out of
wax and spices, corresponding to the stature of Osiris, round each
one of the parts of his body. Then she called in the priests according
to their families and took an oath of them all that they would reveal
to no man the trust she was about to repose in them. So to each of
them privately she said that to them alone she entrusted the burial
of the body, and reminding them of the benefits they had received
she exhorted them to bury the body in their own land and to honour
Osiris as a god.' "

> "Wherefore to this day each of the priests imagines that Osiris is
> buried in his country, and they honour the beasts that were
> consecrated in the beginning, and when the animals die the priests
> renew at their burial the mourning for Osiris."

Just to clarify this above quote, this is Frazer again quoting the
Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who travelled in Egypt during
60-57 BC.

This is consistent with Alexander Hislop in "The Two Babylons":


" ... this is nothing more than Egypt could do in regard to the relics
of Osiris. Egypt was covered with sepulchres of its martyred god; and
many a leg and arm and skull, all vouched to be genuine, were exhibited
in the rival burying-places for the adoration of the Egyptian
faithful." (Chapter V, Section II, Relic Worship)

The point that these quotes make is that the priests and the people
of Egypt at the time of Diodorus Siculus, and before, really believed
that parts of the body of Osiris were buried in diverse locations
throughout Egypt. Therefore, they could not, and did not, believe
that Osiris was resurrected. The idea of the resurrection of
Osiris and other supernatural elements of the story were introduced
by Plutarch, writing after the time of Christ.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/30/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:904jpe$74t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <903k5s$62l$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> > news:902e6s$cml$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> ...
> > > This means that there are lots of places in Egypt where Osiris was
> > > buried.
> > >
> > > Parts of his body were treasured as holy relics in the various
> > > sanctuaries and shrines built at these locations.
> >
> > Nope.... After Isis found the pieces she made copies and got the
> > priests to promise not to reveal what she buried. (See Robert
> > Frazer).

[Must have got confused with Graves.]

".... But others would have it that she buried an image of him in every
city, pretending that it was his body, in order that Orisris might be
worship in many places and if Typhone searched for the real grave he might
not be able to find it. "

>
> "Wherefore to this day each of the priests imagines that Osiris is
> buried in his country, and they honour the beasts that were consecrated
> in the beginning, and when the animals die the priests renew at their
> burial the mourning for Osiris."
> ...
> "Such is the myth or legend of Osiris, as told by Greek writers and
> eked out by more or less fragmentary notices or allusions in native
> Egyptian literature. A long inscription in the temple at Denderah
> has preserved a list of the god’s graves, and other texts mention the
> parts of his body which were treasured as holy relics in each of the
> sanctuaries. Thus his heart was at Athribis, his backbone at Busiris,
> his neck at Letopolis, and his head at Memphis." (Sir James George
> Frazer, The Golden Bough (1922))


"According to native Egyptian accounts, which supplement that of Plutarch,
when Isis found the corps of her husband Osiris, she and her sister Nephthys
sat down beside it an uttered a lament which in after ages became typical of
all Egyptian lamentations for the dead......

.....The lamentations of the two sad sisters were not in vain. In pity for
her sorrow sun-god Ra sent down from heaven the jackal headed god Anubis,
who with the aid of Isis and Nephthys, of Thoth and Horus, pieced together
the broken body of the murdered god and swathed it in linen bandages, and
observed all the other rites which the Egyptians were wan to perform over
the bodies of the departed. Then Isis fanned the cold clay with her wings:
Osiris revived, and henceforth reigned as king over the dead in the other
world...."

(Sir James Frazer - The Golden Bough (1922))

>
> > After she collected all of Osirs bits minus the phallus which was
> > eaten by a fish, so she made a copy of that to bolt on, she put
> > them together wrapped the in bandages, (i.e. the swaddling cloths
> > of Jesus) and pronounced the ritual of rebirth. So Osirs came back
> > to life long before any Christian Christ.
>
> The stories of the rebirth of Osiris, and of his coming back to life,
> and of his astral transfiguration into a star being, as described in
> the pyramid and funerary texts, appear to be inconsistent with the
> historical understanding that the Egyptian priests mourned over the
> holy relics of Osiris's body parts in each of the sanctuaries
> in diverse locations throughout Egypt.
>

So are you saying that the Egyptian priests alleged historical relics
predate the 2000 year old Pyramid texts ?

> These pyramid and funerary texts, that describe such stories, were
> "discovered" long after Christ's resurrection.

If they were written down in the Pyramids then they would have been known to
most contemporary Egyptians who sill believed in resurrection and the after
life else they would have not practiced the rituals. The Christians
obviously censored the accounts that came down to us.

Anyway I've been reading more of Frazer and found something very familiar in
the festival of Osiris.

"On the nineteenth day of the month the people went down to the sea, the
priests carrying a shrine which contained a golden casket. Into this casket
they poured fresh water, and thereupon the spectators raised a shout that
Osiris was found"

Sounds very similar to the Orthodox celebrations of Easter where a shrine is
carried around the village and then a shout of Xristos Anesti is raised.

Infact Frazer says that the Eastern Orthodox Easter was based on the rights
of Adonis, whereas as the Roman Easter on those of Attis. As for Christmas
that was based on the Egyptian/Syrian celebration of the Nativity of the Sun
at the winter solstice on 25 December when they retire into certain shrines
and at midnight cried out "The Virgin (considered to be Astarte) has brought
forth! The light is waxing! The Egyptians even depicted the Sun as a newly
born baby who they brought forth and exhibited to his worshipers. Christians
didnt Celebrate this festival until the 4th century.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Nov 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM11/30/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:90599g$n1c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

>
> The point that these quotes make is that the priests and the people
> of Egypt at the time of Diodorus Siculus, and before, really believed
> that parts of the body of Osiris were buried in diverse locations
> throughout Egypt. Therefore, they could not, and did not, believe
> that Osiris was resurrected. The idea of the resurrection of
> Osiris and other supernatural elements of the story were introduced
> by Plutarch, writing after the time of Christ.
>

The Scrolls of the Dead say he was resurrected, the Pyramid Texts say he was
resurrected. What do you think happened Plutrach broke into a 2000 year old
Pyramids and added a few notes.

What was the when point of Mummification if the Egyptians didnt believe in
resurrection.

What give the Christens the monopoly on something they pinched along with
Christmas and Easter.

How do you know that the resurrection of Christ wasn't developed until the
4th century at the time as Christmas and Easter.

Odysseus

unread,
Nov 30, 2000, 8:25:35 PM11/30/00
to
In article <906at3$h60$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> > The point that these quotes make is that the priests and the people
> > of Egypt at the time of Diodorus Siculus, and before, really believed
> > that parts of the body of Osiris were buried in diverse locations
> > throughout Egypt. Therefore, they could not, and did not, believe
> > that Osiris was resurrected. The idea of the resurrection of
> > Osiris and other supernatural elements of the story were introduced
> > by Plutarch, writing after the time of Christ.
> >
>
> The Scrolls of the Dead say he was resurrected, the Pyramid Texts say he was
> resurrected. What do you think happened Plutrach broke into a 2000 year old
> Pyramids and added a few notes.
>
> What was the when point of Mummification if the Egyptians didnt believe in
> resurrection.
>

I agree with you in general -- but it may be worth mentioning that the
Egyptians apparently believed a person to comprise seven (?) "parts of the
soul" of which the physical body was only one element, and that the
"resurrection" attained after passage through the Tuat was not the same as
the "resurrection in the body" espoused by Christianity. The "coming forth by
day" was IIRC an activity of the _ka_ or "double"; while the preservation of
the physical body as a mummy was considered important to maintain the
integrity of the Osiris or "justified" person, the apocalyptic "Judgement
Day" scene of corpses arising from their graves was not part of the picture.

__________
--Odysseus

dpwozney

unread,
Dec 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/1/00
to
In article <9064n5$3as$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:

>
> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote:
> > In article <903k5s$62l$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> > "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> > > "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote:
...

> ".... But others would have it that she buried an image of him in
> every city, pretending that it was his body, in order that Orisris
> might be worship in many places and if Typhone searched for the real
> grave he might not be able to find it. "

This is a quote by Frazer writing in 1922, and he could be referring
to others after the time of Plutarch (46 AD - c. 125AD) and after the
time of Apuleius (124 -170 A.D.), who both added and changed elements
to the story of Isis and Osiris.

According to Diodorus Siculus, what was buried in various locations
was mostly an image of out of wax and spices, corresponding to the
stature of Osiris, with one genuine part of his body attached.

> "According to native Egyptian accounts, which supplement that of
> Plutarch, when Isis found the corps of her husband Osiris, she and
> her sister Nephthys sat down beside it an uttered a lament which in
> after ages became typical of all Egyptian lamentations for the
> dead......
>
> .....The lamentations of the two sad sisters were not in vain. In
> pity for her sorrow sun-god Ra sent down from heaven the jackal
> headed god Anubis, who with the aid of Isis and Nephthys, of Thoth
> and Horus, pieced together the broken body of the murdered god and
> swathed it in linen bandages, and observed all the other rites
> which the Egyptians were wan to perform over the bodies of the
> departed. Then Isis fanned the cold clay with her wings:
> Osiris revived, and henceforth reigned as king over the dead in
> the other world...."
>
> (Sir James Frazer - The Golden Bough (1922))

Again, this is a quote by Frazer writing in 1922, and he is referring
to native Egyptian accounts that supplement that of Plutarch, in other
words, native Egyptian accounts *after* the time of Christ.

> > The stories of the rebirth of Osiris, and of his coming back to
> > life, and of his astral transfiguration into a star being, as
> > described in the pyramid and funerary texts, appear to be
> > inconsistent with the historical understanding that the Egyptian
> > priests mourned over the holy relics of Osiris's body parts in
> > each of the sanctuaries in diverse locations throughout Egypt.
>

> So are you saying that the Egyptian priests alleged historical
> relics predate the 2000 year old Pyramid texts ?

How do you know that the pyramid texts (and funerary texts) are 2000
years old? The Egyptian book of the dead was first published by Lepsius
in 1842. Pyramid texts were first discovered by Brugsch in the pyramid
of Pepi I in 1880, with incredible finds soon after in 1881, in the
pyramids of Unas, Pepi II, Neferirkara, and Teti.

The Egyptian pyramid texts, coffin texts, and book of the dead have
aroused much speculation regarding their origin because they emerge,
as a fully-fledged collection of mortuary texts, without any precedent
in the archaeological record. How such esoteric writing remained
undiscovered, and unvandalized, and unstolen, for centuries among
graverobbers and looters so prevalent in Egypt's history, in buildings
which attract attention from miles away on the flat desert sand,
remains a mystery to this writer.

> > These pyramid and funerary texts, that describe such stories, were
> > "discovered" long after Christ's resurrection.
>

> If they were written down in the Pyramids then they would have been
> known to most contemporary Egyptians who sill believed in
> resurrection and the after life else they would have not practiced
> the rituals. The Christians obviously censored the accounts that
> came down to us.

I cannot conceive of a probable mechanism by which such alleged
censorship by Christians would be at all effective.

The possibility exists, however, that the pyramid and funerary texts
were written in the nineteenth century AD, and placed in the various
monuments of Egypt soon thereafter.

> Anyway I've been reading more of Frazer and found something very
> familiar in the festival of Osiris.
>
> "On the nineteenth day of the month the people went down to the sea,
> the priests carrying a shrine which contained a golden casket. Into
> this casket they poured fresh water, and thereupon the spectators
> raised a shout that Osiris was found"

I cannot determine exactly from which writer Frazer is drawing this
information from. If you go on a little further Frazer starts to
refer to Lactantius (b. 240 AD - d. c. 320 AD): "Lactantius tells us
how on these occasions the priests ...".

> Infact Frazer says that the Eastern Orthodox Easter was based on the
> rights of Adonis, whereas as the Roman Easter on those of Attis.

The New Testament authors and the early church did not borrow ideas
from any alleged rites of Adonis or of Attis.

"Lambrechts has shown that there is no trace of a resurrection in the


early texts or pictorial representations of Adonis; the four texts that
speak of his resurrection are quite late, dating from the second to the
fourth centuries A.D." ("La 'resurrection' d'Adonis," in Melanges
Isidore Levy, 1955, pp. 207-40).

"There is no suggestion of Adonis rising (in either the Panyasisian


form or the Ovidian form of the myth)"..... "Only late texts, largely
influenced by or written by Christians, claim that there is a
subsequent day of celebration for Adonis having been raised from the

dead." (The Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 522, "Dying and Rising Gods",
by J. Smith)

"The complex mythology of Attis is largely irrelevant to the quesion
of dying and rising deities. In the old, Phrygian versions, Attis is
killed by being castrated, either by himself or by another; in the old
Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither case is there any
question of his returning to life...Neither myth nor ritual offer any
warrant for classifying Attis as a dying and rising deity." (The
Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 523, "Dying and Rising Gods", by J. Smith)

Also see the section titled "The Cult of Cybele and Attis" at
http://www.mustardseed.net/html/topaganism.html

> As for Christmas that was based on the Egyptian/Syrian celebration
> of the Nativity of the Sun at the winter solstice on 25 December
> when they retire into certain shrines and at midnight cried out
> "The Virgin (considered to be Astarte) has brought forth! The
> light is waxing! The Egyptians even depicted the Sun as a
> newly born baby who they brought forth and exhibited to his
> worshipers. Christians didnt Celebrate this festival until the
> 4th century.

How do you know they were Christians? If they were celebrating some
festival, involving Astarte, obviously they were not Christians.
If they were worshipping the sun, obviously they were not Christians.

dpwozney

unread,
Dec 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/1/00
to
In article <906at3$h60$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> news:90599g$n1c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

>
> > The point that these quotes make is that the priests and the
> > people of Egypt at the time of Diodorus Siculus, and before,
> > really believed that parts of the body of Osiris were buried in
> > diverse locations throughout Egypt. Therefore, they could not,

> > and did not, believe that Osiris was resurrected. The idea of
> > the resurrection of Osiris and other supernatural elements of
> > the story were introduced by Plutarch, writing after the time
> > of Christ.
>

> The Scrolls of the Dead say he was resurrected, the Pyramid Texts
> say he was resurrected. What do you think happened Plutrach broke
> into a 2000 year old Pyramids and added a few notes.

Plutarch borrowed elements of Christian teaching and applied them to
modify the story of Isis and Osiris. What I find to be really odd
and mysterious about the pyramid and funerary texts is how eminent
professors in universities and curators of prestigious museums in
Europe, who were very well connected with European royalty, were able
to find these texts in a short time on grandiose "scientific
expeditions", when centuries of multitudes of local people somehow
all failed. Also questionable and curious is why the Egyptian
authorities would allow the Europeans to walk off with these
treasures unrestricted.

> What was the when point of Mummification if the Egyptians didnt
> believe in resurrection.

The purpose of the mummification ritual was to preserve and keep the
corpse as intact as possible. The application of spices and perfumed
ointments was intended to minimize putrefaction. Since only the
wealthy were able to take advantage of mummification, did the Egyptians
believe only the wealthy could be transported to a spiritual afterlife?

> What give the Christens the monopoly on something they pinched along
> with Christmas and Easter.

No group of people, and no human-organized institution, has a monopoly
on granting salvation and eternal life to anyone.

> How do you know that the resurrection of Christ wasn't developed
> until the 4th century at the time as Christmas and Easter.

There is way too much historical fact and evidence that indicate
people believed in the resurrection of Christ before the 4th century.

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Dec 2, 2000, 12:46:42 AM12/2/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:907ule$sge$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <9064n5$3as$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,

>
> I cannot conceive of a probable mechanism by which such alleged
> censorship by Christians would be at all effective.
>
> The possibility exists, however, that the pyramid and funerary texts
> were written in the nineteenth century AD, and placed in the various
> monuments of Egypt soon thereafter.

LOL... LOl... LOL...

Now I've heard it all. And they wrote it on 4000 year old papyrus and drew
the frescos on fresh 4000 year old plaster, all with 4000 year old ink and
paint to make the carbon dating fit.

>
> > Anyway I've been reading more of Frazer and found something very
> > familiar in the festival of Osiris.
> >
> > "On the nineteenth day of the month the people went down to the sea,
> > the priests carrying a shrine which contained a golden casket. Into
> > this casket they poured fresh water, and thereupon the spectators
> > raised a shout that Osiris was found"
>
> I cannot determine exactly from which writer Frazer is drawing this
> information from. If you go on a little further Frazer starts to
> refer to Lactantius (b. 240 AD - d. c. 320 AD): "Lactantius tells us
> how on these occasions the priests ...".
>
> > Infact Frazer says that the Eastern Orthodox Easter was based on the
> > rights of Adonis, whereas as the Roman Easter on those of Attis.
>
> The New Testament authors and the early church did not borrow ideas
> from any alleged rites of Adonis or of Attis.

TWADDLE.


> "Lambrechts has shown that there is no trace of a resurrection in the
> early texts or pictorial representations of Adonis; the four texts that
> speak of his resurrection are quite late, dating from the second to the
> fourth centuries A.D." ("La 'resurrection' d'Adonis," in Melanges
> Isidore Levy, 1955, pp. 207-40).

Oh really.

How come Paphos in Cyprus was the centre of the Adonis Cult but according to
Paul this was the first place to become Christianised in AD 40 or someting.
Why did the Prostitution cult of Astarte cult continue in the same place
until the time of Constantine who abolished it and built a Church ontop of
her temple.

Can anyone really believe the Christians account of anything. My what the
Pauline texts are referring to was the conversion of the Romans to the cult
of Adonis not Christianity.

>
> "There is no suggestion of Adonis rising (in either the Panyasisian
> form or the Ovidian form of the myth)"..... "Only late texts, largely
> influenced by or written by Christians, claim that there is a
> subsequent day of celebration for Adonis having been raised from the
> dead." (The Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 522, "Dying and Rising Gods",

> by J. Smith).

Apollodorus.

Through the anger of Artemis, Adonis died in the hunt while he was still a
young boy, from a wound inflicted by a boar. According to Hesiod, however,
he was a son of [not of Cinyrus but] of Phoenix and Alphesibioea, while
according to Panyasis, he was a son of Theias, king of Assyria, who had a
daughter called Smyrna.

Smyrna was Adonis mother from whom he was born after her death after she was
turned by the Gods into a tree.

Smyrna was also the Sumerian goddess Myrna, Myrnie or Myriam, ie the
biblical Mary.

>
> "The complex mythology of Attis is largely irrelevant to the quesion
> of dying and rising deities. In the old, Phrygian versions, Attis is
> killed by being castrated, either by himself or by another; in the old
> Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither case is there any
> question of his returning to life...Neither myth nor ritual offer any
> warrant for classifying Attis as a dying and rising deity." (The
> Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 523, "Dying and Rising Gods", by J. Smith)

Attis had the same rites as and Adonis and Osiris. If one rose from the dead
then so did the others.

>
> Also see the section titled "The Cult of Cybele and Attis" at
> http://www.mustardseed.net/html/topaganism.html
>
> > As for Christmas that was based on the Egyptian/Syrian celebration
> > of the Nativity of the Sun at the winter solstice on 25 December
> > when they retire into certain shrines and at midnight cried out
> > "The Virgin (considered to be Astarte) has brought forth! The
> > light is waxing! The Egyptians even depicted the Sun as a
> > newly born baby who they brought forth and exhibited to his
> > worshipers. Christians didnt Celebrate this festival until the
> > 4th century.
>
> How do you know they were Christians? If they were celebrating some
> festival, involving Astarte, obviously they were not Christians.
> If they were worshipping the sun, obviously they were not Christians.

And obviously if the Church celebrates Christmas and Easter then they are
not Chritians.

Aggie-Tom

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Dec 2, 2000, 1:40:19 AM12/2/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:908209$uqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <906at3$h60$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> >
> > "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> > news:90599g$n1c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > > The point that these quotes make is that the priests and the
> > > people of Egypt at the time of Diodorus Siculus, and before,
> > > really believed that parts of the body of Osiris were buried in
> > > diverse locations throughout Egypt. Therefore, they could not,
> > > and did not, believe that Osiris was resurrected. The idea of
> > > the resurrection of Osiris and other supernatural elements of
> > > the story were introduced by Plutarch, writing after the time
> > > of Christ.
> >
> > The Scrolls of the Dead say he was resurrected, the Pyramid Texts
> > say he was resurrected. What do you think happened Plutrach broke
> > into a 2000 year old Pyramids and added a few notes.
>
> Plutarch borrowed elements of Christian teaching and applied them to
> modify the story of Isis and Osiris. What I find to be really odd


The myth of Osiris is the same as that of Adonis and Attis. All of these
myth go bach to the Sumerian myth of Enlil and Inanna, and the Babylonian
myth of Tammuz and Ishtar. It was the Christians that borrowed elements. Fod
gods sake they ripped off the old testament to invent Christ as the messiah.

> and mysterious about the pyramid and funerary texts is how eminent
> professors in universities and curators of prestigious museums in
> Europe, who were very well connected with European royalty, were able
> to find these texts in a short time on grandiose "scientific
> expeditions", when centuries of multitudes of local people somehow
> all failed. Also questionable and curious is why the Egyptian
> authorities would allow the Europeans to walk off with these
> treasures unrestricted.

Oh get real. The Egyptian peasants were illiterate so didn't apportion any
value to written texts.

>
> > What was the when point of Mummification if the Egyptians didnt
> > believe in resurrection.
>
> The purpose of the mummification ritual was to preserve and keep the
> corpse as intact as possible. The application of spices and perfumed
> ointments was intended to minimize putrefaction. Since only the
> wealthy were able to take advantage of mummification, did the Egyptians
> believe only the wealthy could be transported to a spiritual afterlife?

Mummification for the rich was more obviously advanced than for the poor,
but even the rich couldn't afford to have pyramids like the Pharoas. Even so
the rituals were the same for all groups, thus all believed in resurrection
long before the Christians adopted their beliefs.

dpwozney

unread,
Dec 3, 2000, 11:25:26 PM12/3/00
to
In article <90a2cj$dv0$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> news:907ule$sge$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <9064n5$3as$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
>
> > The possibility exists, however, that the pyramid and funerary
> > texts were written in the nineteenth century AD, and placed in
> > the various monuments of Egypt soon thereafter.
>
> LOL... LOl... LOL...
>
> Now I've heard it all. And they wrote it on 4000 year old papyrus
> and drew the frescos on fresh 4000 year old plaster, all with 4000
> year old ink and paint to make the carbon dating fit.

Do you know if carbon-dating has been used, and if so, on what objects?
Even if carbon-dating has been used, there are major problems and
challenges to the carbon-dating techniques used and the conclusions
drawn.

A significant proportion of the world's population is hostile against
Christianity, and forgeries intended to discredit Christianity would
not be surprising. The following quotes, taken from "The Stairway To
Heaven", by Zecharia Sitchin, in the chapter "Forging The Pharaoh's
Name", show that forgery in Egyptian monuments is very possible.

"Forgery as a means to fame and fortune is not uncommon in commerce
and the arts, in science and antiquities. When exposed, it may cause
loss and shame. When sustained, it may change the records of history.
...
"Systematic and disciplined archaeological re-examination of pyramid
sites that were hurriedly excavated a century and a half ago (many
times by treaure hunters), has raised numerous questions regarding some
of the earlier conclusions.
...
"The damning evidence is a limestone stela (Fig. 141) which was
discovered by Auguste Mariette in the 1850s in the ruins of the temple
of Isis, near the Great Pyramid. Its inscription identifies it as a
self-laudatory monument by Khufu, erected to commemorate the
restoration by him of the temple of Isis and of images and emblems of
the gods which Khufu found inside the crumbling temple.
...
"The "Inventory Stela," as it came to be called, bears all the marks of
authenticity. Yet scholars at the time of its discovery (and many ever
since) have been unable to reconcile themselves to its unavoidable
conclusions. Unwilling to upset the whole structure of Pyramidology,
they proclaimed the Inventory Stela a forgery--an inscription made
"long after the death of Khufu" (to quote Selim Hassan, Excavations at
Giza), but invoking his name "to support some fictitious claim of the
local priests."
...
"The Inventory Stela was condemned as a forgery because only a decade
or so earlier the identification of Khufu as the builder of the Great
Pyramid appeared to have been undisputably established."
...
"... the conclusion that emerges is this: if a forgery had taken place,
it occurred not in ancient times but in the year A.D. 1837; and the
forgers were not "some local priests," but two (or three) unscrupulous
Engishmen...."

> How come Paphos in Cyprus was the centre of the Adonis Cult but
> according to Paul this was the first place to become Christianised
> in AD 40 or someting. Why did the Prostitution cult of Astarte cult
> continue in the same place until the time of Constantine who
> abolished it and built a Church ontop of her temple.

Cults have always coexisted with Christianity in the same geographical
areas, and will continue to do so until the end of the age. See Matthew
13:24-30, 13:36-43.

> Can anyone really believe the Christians account of anything.

Millions believe the Christian authors of the New Testament.

> My what the Pauline texts are referring to was the conversion
> of the Romans to the cult of Adonis not Christianity.

I cannot find the word "Adonis" in the Pauline texts or anywhere
else in the Bible.

> > "There is no suggestion of Adonis rising (in either the Panyasisian
> > form or the Ovidian form of the myth)"..... "Only late texts,
> > largely influenced by or written by Christians, claim that there
> > is a subsequent day of celebration for Adonis having been raised
> > from the dead." (The Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 522, "Dying and
> > Rising Gods", by J. Smith).
>
> Apollodorus.
>
> Through the anger of Artemis, Adonis died in the hunt while he was
> still a young boy, from a wound inflicted by a boar. According to
> Hesiod, however, he was a son of [not of Cinyrus but] of Phoenix
> and Alphesibioea, while according to Panyasis, he was a son of
> Theias, king of Assyria, who had a daughter called Smyrna.
>
> Smyrna was Adonis mother from whom he was born after her death
> after she was turned by the Gods into a tree.

This story is retold from pseudo-Apollodorus, The Library of Greek
Mythology. The Library, extant under Apollodorus' name, is not by
Apollodorus himself.

> Smyrna was also the Sumerian goddess Myrna, Myrnie or Myriam, ie the
> biblical Mary.

The KJV NT Greek Lexicon states Smyrna = "myrrh". Smyrna is known
as Myrrha, or myrrh. The gods supposedly turned her into a myrrh tree.

> And obviously if the Church celebrates Christmas and Easter then
> they are not Chritians.

A Christian can celebrate the birth of Christ, and the resurrection of
Christ, on any day of the year, without being faulted for that, and can
still be a Christian. According to Paul, Christans are to not let any
man judge them with respect to a holy day.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Colossians 2:16-17

dpwozney

unread,
Dec 4, 2000, 12:06:39 AM12/4/00
to
In article <90a5h7$pl8$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> news:908209$uqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <906at3$h60$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
...

> The myth of Osiris is the same as that of Adonis and Attis. All of
> these myth go bach to the Sumerian myth of Enlil and Inanna, and the
> Babylonian myth of Tammuz and Ishtar. It was the Christians that
> borrowed elements.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html


"In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged
resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though
the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "The
Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N.
Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves
conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld,
Inanna sent him there as her substitute (cf. my article, "Tammuz and
the Bible," Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXXIV [1965], 283-90). A
line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence
that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister
take his place for half the year (cf. S. N. Kramer, Bulletin of the
American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 183 [1966], 31)."

> Fod gods sake they ripped off the old testament to invent Christ as
> the messiah.

Daniel's prophecy, of the seventy weeks, indicates that Christ had to
appear on earth when He did.

> > and mysterious about the pyramid and funerary texts is how eminent
> > professors in universities and curators of prestigious museums in
> > Europe, who were very well connected with European royalty, were
> > able to find these texts in a short time on grandiose "scientific
> > expeditions", when centuries of multitudes of local people somehow
> > all failed. Also questionable and curious is why the Egyptian
> > authorities would allow the Europeans to walk off with these
> > treasures unrestricted.
>
> Oh get real. The Egyptian peasants were illiterate so didn't
> apportion any value to written texts.

Many of these written texts come with elaborate and beautiful drawings.
Any Egyptian peasant would immediately recognize the value of such
manuscripts. For some examples see
http://www.lib.monash.edu.au/hss/rare/xegycat.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptafterlife.html
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/HIGH/OIM_10486_72dpi.html
http://www.dia.org/collections/ancient/egypt/1988.10.13.html

> Mummification for the rich was more obviously advanced than for the
> poor, but even the rich couldn't afford to have pyramids like the
> Pharoas. Even so the rituals were the same for all groups, thus all
> believed in resurrection long before the Christians adopted their
> beliefs.

The pre-church age Egyptians did not believe that Osiris was
resurrected because they believed genuine body parts of Osiris were
buried in diverse locations throughout Egypt. According to funerary
texts, there was a belief that the body must continue intact for the
deceased to live in the next world, and that every living Egyptian had
a ba and a ka. Upon death, the ba and ka left the body but then had to
return to it in order for a person to live forever. The ba and the ka
had to recognize the body in order to return to it.

Mummification was too elaborate and too costly to ever be available for
the majority of Egyptians. Would the average poor Egyptian, who could
not be mummified, believe that the afterlife was unavailable as a
result?

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Dec 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/4/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:90f8os$72h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <90a5h7$pl8$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> >
> > "dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
> > news:908209$uqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <906at3$h60$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> ...
> > The myth of Osiris is the same as that of Adonis and Attis. All of
> > these myth go bach to the Sumerian myth of Enlil and Inanna, and the
> > Babylonian myth of Tammuz and Ishtar. It was the Christians that
> > borrowed elements.
>
> http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
> "In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged
> resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though
> the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "The
> Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N.
> Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves
> conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld,
> Inanna sent him there as her substitute (cf. my article, "Tammuz and
> the Bible," Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXXIV [1965], 283-90). A
> line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence
> that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister
> take his place for half the year (cf. S. N. Kramer, Bulletin of the
> American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 183 [1966], 31)."

Well we can easily sort this problem out on the spot.

The story of Enlil, Tammuz, Dumuzi(on), Zion, Baal-Marduk, Inanna, Ishtar,
Astarte, Anat, Baaleth or whatver you want to call them is preserved in the
Bible.

So after sorting out the verses into the right order here it is.

Isaiah 14.

(*Interpretation)

[Tammuz is no more]
4 kai lhmqh ton yrhnon touton epi ton basilea babulwnov kai ereiv en th
hmera ekeinh pwv anapepautai o apaitwn kai anapepautai o epispoudasthv

4 Here cometh the lamentation which is the king of Babylon’s. Risen is
the day when there is no more toil, and no taskmaster.


[Tammuz descends into underworld]


9 o adhv katwyen epikranyh sunanthsav soi sunhgeryhsan soi pantev oi
gigantev oi arxantev thv ghv oi egeirantev ek twn yronwn autwn pantav
basileiv eynwn

Hades from beneath is provoked to meet the one, and for the one have come


all the
Giants and Archons of the earth, the founders of the thrones of the kings of
nations


[The dead greet Tammuz]


10 pantev apokriyhsontai kai erousin soi kai su ealwv wsper kai hmeiv en
hmin de katelogisyhv

They all come out and say to you, "you have been taken even as we, we are
all reckoned"


[Crops fail, unrest descends on the nation]
6 pataxav eynov yumw plhgh aniatw {paiwn eynov plhghn yumou h ouk efeisato}

6 Smitten is a nation with outrage a plague incurable. {On the nation is
blown a plague of anger}.

(Funny how the same line is repeated twice. Must have been rendered from two
different sources so I will repeat it later on.)


[Why did it happen for Gods sake, the one who taught mankind about framing
and other wisdom is gone]


12 pwv exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforov o prwi anatellwn sunetribh eiv thn
ghn o apostellwn prov panta ta eynh

12 How did this fate come about from God*, the dawn-bringer, the morning
riser. Now procreating inside the earth is the one who went to all nations.


[The reason why]


13 su de eipav en th dianoia sou eiv ton ouranon anabhsomai epanw twn
astrwn tou ouranou yhsw ton yronon mou kayiw en orei uqhlw epi ta orh ta
uqhla ta prov borran

For you said in your heart, "to the Gods* I ascend, above the domain* of
(the
highest ) God* I set my throne, to sit on a high mountain among the highest
mountains to the north."


[Tammuz wanted to be the top God]


14 anabhsomai epanw twn nefelwn esomai omoiov tw uqistw

"I rise up above the clouds: I live like the Most High."

<Paragraph>


[Ishtars decent]


15 nun de eiv adou katabhsh kai eiv ta yemelia thv ghv

Now (Ishtar*) goes down to Hades and to the foundations of the earth


[Crops fail, unrest descends on the nation again.]
6 pataxav eynov yumw plhgh aniatw paiwn eynov plhghn yumou h ouk efeisato

6 and on the nation is blown a plague of anger.


[As Ishtar descends she is disrobed until she becomes a corpse (as in
Sumerian account)]


11 katebh de eiv adou h doxa sou h pollh sou eufrosunh upokatw sou
strwsousin shqin kai to katakalumma sou skwlhx

11 Coming down to Hades, is your glory, your great fertility, underneath you


spreads out decay and you are flooded with worms.


[The dead are in awe]


16 oi idontev se yaumasousin epi soi kai erousin outov o anyrwpov o
paroxunwn thn ghn seiwn basileiv

16 The ones that see you there wonder at you and say "this one is the
motivation of earth, the mover of kings".


[of Ishtar, who threatens to free the dead so that they outnumber the
living]


17 o yeiv thn oikoumenhn olhn erhmon kai tav poleiv kayeilen touv en
epagwgh ouk elusen

17 The Goddess* of everything all desolate, who cleanes out Hades* cities
**and comes to free everyone**

(**high degree of interpretive licence used)


[Ishtar fights on and wades her clothes drenched in the blood of the dead,
(as in the Canaanite account)]


19 su de rifhsh en toiv oresin wv nekrov ebdelugmenov meta pollwn
teynhkotwn ekkekenthmenwn macairaiv katabainontwn eiv adou on tropon imation
en aimati pefurmenon ouk estai kayaron

19 You suck of the desire of death, joined with many craftsmen and


skilful swordsmen that go down to Hades, who’s manner of garment is immersed
in blood that is not clean


[Battle continues in Hades]


31 ololuzete pulai polewn kekragetwsan poleiv tetaragmenai oi allofuloi
pantev oti kapnov apo borra ercetai kai ouk estin tou einai

31 The gates of cities are hollering and crying are those walled-in and
all*, since smoke form the north comes and nothing is to be of it.


[The God of underworld threatens Babylon if Ishtar continues]


23 kai yhsw thn babulwnian erhmon wste katoikein ecinouv kai estai eiv
ouden kai yhsw authn phlou barayron eiv apwleian

23 And I (will) make Babylon a desert, so that all that come there come to


nothing, and make it a chasm in the sand to finish it.


[Rhetoric]
24 tade legei kuriov sabawy on tropon eirhka outwv estai kai on tropon
bebouleumai outwv menei

24 This says Lord Saboath, is the way I have set out, this it is and this
that I have conceived it shall so remain.


[Ishtar is told to stop. every man has his place with the dead or the
living]


18 pantev oi basileiv twn eynwn ekoimhyhsan en timh anyrwpov en tw oikw
autou

18 So always the kings of nations will sleep in glory, every man in his own
house


<Paragraph>


[Because the people have stopped all procreation for Tammuz and are unaware
of the famine they have caused]
30 kai boskhyhsontai ptwcoi di autou ptwcoi de andrev ep eirhnhv
anapausontai anelei de limw to sperma sou kai to kataleimma sou anelei

And worshipping Tammuz* are the poor, for the poor men in peace rest, for
unaware of the famine are your seed and your wasting unforeseen


[the God of the underworld gives in to Ishtars demands and agrees to let the
go]


22 kai epanasthsomai autoiv legei kuriov sabawy kai apolw autwn onoma kai
kataleimma kai sperma tade legei kuriov

22 I will raise Tammuz* and Ishtar* up says the Lord Saboath and release
their names and essence and seed: so saith the Lord


[Tells Ishtar to take Tammuz back and not to stay]


20 outwv oude su esh kayarov dioti thn ghn mou apwlesav kai ton laon mou
apekteinav ou mh meinhv eiv ton aiwna cronon sperma ponhron

20 Neither him nor yourself are clean, because my world is bereaved and my
people slain, so don’t stay forever perspicacious seed


[God of Underworld claims the credit for saving earth by releasing
Tammuz]


32 kai ti apokriyhsontai basileiv eynwn oti kuriov eyemeliwsen siwn kai di
autou swyhsontai oi tapeinoi tou laou

32 And what answer have the kings of nations, that the Lord founded
Tammu-Sion and by him shall save the humblest of people.


[Ishtar and Tammuz return to build an new world]


21 etoimason ta tekna sou sfaghnai taiv amartiaiv tou patrov sou ina mh
anastwsin kai thn ghn klhronomhswsin kai emplhswsi thn ghn polewn

21 Make ready your children, blot out the sins of your fathers, that they


shall not re-appear, and inherit the earth and fill it up with cities


[Tammuz addresses the people]
26 auth h boulh hn bebouleutai kuriov epi thn oikoumenhn olhn kai auth h
ceir h uqhlh epi panta ta eynh thv oikoumenhv

26 This is the purpose that comes from the Lord to all and everyone, this
the
hand that is raised to all the nations everywhere


[Rhetoric]
27 a gar o yeov o agiov bebouleutai tiv diaskedasei kai thn ceira thn
uqhlhn tiv apostreqei

27 The Holy God makes real his purpose and takes back his raised
hand


[Celebrations on earth]
7 anepausato pepoiywv pasa h gh boa met eufrosunhv

7 With conviction on the earth are cries of joy


[Reference to the ritual of Tammuz rebirth]
8 kai ta xula tou libanou eufranyhsan epi soi kai h kedrov tou libanou af
ou su kekoimhsai ouk anebh o koptwn hmav

8 And the Wooden Idols of Lebanon join with you and Kedros of Lebanon, since
you laid down nor razed our (their) copts


>
> > Fod gods sake they ripped off the old testament to invent Christ as
> > the messiah.
>
> Daniel's prophecy, of the seventy weeks, indicates that Christ had to
> appear on earth when He did.

Daniel's prophesy had nothing to do with Christ. It refers to his own
lifetime or the time the book was written.

>
> > > and mysterious about the pyramid and funerary texts is how eminent
> > > professors in universities and curators of prestigious museums in
> > > Europe, who were very well connected with European royalty, were
> > > able to find these texts in a short time on grandiose "scientific
> > > expeditions", when centuries of multitudes of local people somehow
> > > all failed. Also questionable and curious is why the Egyptian
> > > authorities would allow the Europeans to walk off with these
> > > treasures unrestricted.
> >
> > Oh get real. The Egyptian peasants were illiterate so didn't
> > apportion any value to written texts.
>
> Many of these written texts come with elaborate and beautiful drawings.
> Any Egyptian peasant would immediately recognize the value of such
> manuscripts. For some examples see
> http://www.lib.monash.edu.au/hss/rare/xegycat.htm
> http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptafterlife.html
> http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/HIGH/OIM_10486_72dpi.html
> http://www.dia.org/collections/ancient/egypt/1988.10.13.html

The Egyptian peasants only recognised the value of Gold.

>
> > Mummification for the rich was more obviously advanced than for the
> > poor, but even the rich couldn't afford to have pyramids like the
> > Pharoas. Even so the rituals were the same for all groups, thus all
> > believed in resurrection long before the Christians adopted their
> > beliefs.
>
> The pre-church age Egyptians did not believe that Osiris was
> resurrected because they believed genuine body parts of Osiris were
> buried in diverse locations throughout Egypt. According to funerary

Oh yes. All of his 20 arms, 70 legs, 15 hands, 28 heads, 21 torsos, and so
on.

> texts, there was a belief that the body must continue intact for the
> deceased to live in the next world, and that every living Egyptian had
> a ba and a ka. Upon death, the ba and ka left the body but then had to
> return to it in order for a person to live forever. The ba and the ka
> had to recognize the body in order to return to it.

Ands thats why they put markers on ordinary peoples graves.

>
> Mummification was too elaborate and too costly to ever be available for
> the majority of Egyptians. Would the average poor Egyptian, who could
> not be mummified, believe that the afterlife was unavailable as a
> result?

Nobody really believed that the would come back to earth except the pharaohs
. The resurrection was in the afterlife.

In any case Orisirs wasn't the only God that came back form the dead.

Look at Herakles, who goes into Hades to rescue Theseus. Since I've
mentioned him, Theseus comes back and he's a mortal like Sisyphus, Orpheus,
Odysseus, and Pelops. Somehow I think that Pelops shoulder blade which was
eaten by Aphrodite was actually his genitals. This would then link his story
to that to Osiris, since Pelops was also cut into pieces, like Osiris and
fed to the Gods in a broth. When he was brought back to life his shouder
blade/genital organ was replaced, like Orisris with one carved from ivory.
Funny how a cult never grew around him though.


dpwozney

unread,
Dec 6, 2000, 12:53:57 AM12/6/00
to
In article <90gm6v$r2g$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,

"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
>
> Well we can easily sort this problem out on the spot.
>
> The story of Enlil, Tammuz, Dumuzi(on), Zion, Baal-Marduk, Inanna,
> Ishtar, Astarte, Anat, Baaleth or whatver you want to call them is
> preserved in the Bible.
>
> So after sorting out the verses into the right order here it is.
>
> Isaiah 14.

The translations of Isaiah 14 from the Masoretic Hebrew text and from
the Qumran Isaiah Scroll ( http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-12.htm ) do
not mention Enlil, Tammuz, Dumuzi(on), Baal-Marduk, Inanna, Ishtar,
Astarte, Anat, or Baaleth.

The "shining one" in Isaiah 14:12 (YLT) is the angel of light, Satan,
referred to in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

> > Daniel's prophecy, of the seventy weeks, indicates that Christ had

> > appear on earth when He did.
>
> Daniel's prophesy had nothing to do with Christ. It refers to his own
> lifetime or the time the book was written.

The ancient Jews, including the Essenes, believed that Daniel's
prophecy of the 70 weeks determined the time of the Messiah's
coming.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
(Daniel 9:24, KJV)

Seventy weeks, or seventy "sevens" of 360-day years, are determined for
Daniel's people, Israel.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
(Daniel 9:25, KJV)

The commandment to restore and rebuild the street and the wall was
given by the Persian emperor Artaxerxes on March 14, 445 BC. The
Messiah the Prince is Christ. The time between the commandment and
the Messiah is seven weeks and threescore and two weeks, or 69 weeks.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy
the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
(Daniel 9:26, KJV)

The Messiah, Christ, was "cut off", or rejected, on April 6, 32 AD,
Palm Sunday, when He offered Himself as King (Matthew 21:8-11).
The people of the prince (not Christ) are the Romans who destroyed
the temple in 70 AD.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:27, KJV)

The "one week" here is the seventieth week which has yet to occur.

> The Egyptian peasants only recognised the value of Gold.

The written texts with elaborate and beautiful drawings could
easily be exchanged for gold.

> Oh yes. All of his 20 arms, 70 legs, 15 hands, 28 heads, 21 torsos,
> and so on.

Of course, people started to exaggerate and extend the original story,
much like Plutarch. Nevertheless, the pre-church age Egyptians still
believed and claimed genuine body parts of Osiris were buried in
various locations throughout Egypt.

> > texts, there was a belief that the body must continue intact for
> > the deceased to live in the next world, and that every living
> > Egyptian had a ba and a ka. Upon death, the ba and ka left the
> > body but then had to return to it in order for a person to live
> > forever. The ba and the ka had to recognize the body in order to
> > return to it.
>
> Ands thats why they put markers on ordinary peoples graves.

Markers do not help the body to continue intact.

> > Mummification was too elaborate and too costly to ever be
> > available for the majority of Egyptians. Would the average poor
> > Egyptian, who could not be mummified, believe that the afterlife
> > was unavailable as a result?
>
> Nobody really believed that the would come back to earth except the

> pharaohs. The resurrection was in the afterlife.

"The Pyramid Texts are categoric that the king becomes a star soul
after death and, more specifically, joins Osiris-Orion in the sky.
Many passages leave us with no doubt in this matter:
...
"There can be little doubt that the Pyramid texts make a clear
statement that the dead kings become stars, especially seen in the
lower eastern sky. They also tell us that it is the souls of departed
kings which become stars:
...
"Thus the dead king was an Osiris and his soul was an Osiris soul,
whose depiction in the sky was Orion. The Pyramid Texts call the
starry afterworld of Osiris the Duat, and it is in this Duat region
that the astral souls become established."
("The Orion Mystery", p.90, Bauval & Gilbert)

> In any case Orisirs wasn't the only God that came back form the dead.
>

> Look at Herakles, who goes into Hades to rescue Theseus. ...

The twelve labours of Hercules are from the Library of Apollodorus,
which although are extant under Apollodorus's name, are not by him.

Hercules had to really struggle in the various contests. Unlike the
stories involving Hercules in Greek mythology, there is no contest
going on between Christ and Satan. Although Satan is vastly more
powerful than humans, he is completely powerless against Christ.
Christians are chosen and predestinated by Christ before the
foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5).

Aggie-Tom

unread,
Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
to

"dpwozney" <dpwo...@ocii.com> wrote in message
news:90kk9k$hfd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <90gm6v$r2g$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
> "Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
> >
> > Well we can easily sort this problem out on the spot.
> >
> > The story of Enlil, Tammuz, Dumuzi(on), Zion, Baal-Marduk, Inanna,
> > Ishtar, Astarte, Anat, Baaleth or whatver you want to call them is
> > preserved in the Bible.
> >
> > So after sorting out the verses into the right order here it is.
> >
> > Isaiah 14.
>
> The translations of Isaiah 14 from the Masoretic Hebrew text and from
> the Qumran Isaiah Scroll ( http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-12.htm ) do
> not mention Enlil, Tammuz, Dumuzi(on), Baal-Marduk, Inanna, Ishtar,
> Astarte, Anat, or Baaleth.
>
> The "shining one" in Isaiah 14:12 (YLT) is the angel of light, Satan,
> referred to in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

Oh what a load of infernal RUBBISH.

According to Revelation, Jesus Christ was perceived as the “Morning Star”..

{ Quotes are from the Authorised, King James Version (AV) and the original
Greek Bible (LXX + NT) (7=psi, 8=theta)}.

[AV] Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
[NT] Revelation 2:28 kai dwsw autw ton astera ton prwinon

[AV] Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these
things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the
bright and morning star.
[NT] Revelation 22: 16 egw ihsous epem7a ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin
tauta epi tais ekklhsiais egw eimi h riza kai to genos dauid o asthr o
lampros o prwinos

But in the Authorised Version of Isaiah the “Morning Star” also known as
Lucifer to the Romans, rather than being portrayed as all sweetens and light
like Christ, is something which is Diabolical.

[AV] Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the
morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the
nations! {O Lucifer: or, O day star}
[LXX] Isaiah 14:12 pws exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn
ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh

How can Christ be the Morning Star or Lucifer, if Lucifer is a fallen angel
?

Literally the Latin word “Lucifer” means “Light Bringer” Lux-Ferre, from Lux
meaning light and from Fero meaning to bring forth, bear or carry as in
Christopher, Christ-barer, and was associated by the Romans with the Goddess
Venus.

The Latin “Lucifer” is the Roman equivalent of the Greek “Eosphoros”
(ewsforos) which is taken to be the “Dawn Bringer” or “Morning Star” and is
the son of the Titan Astreus (‘starry’) and Eos (the Dawn) known to the
Romans as Aurora (the Day), the Daughter of the Titan Hyperion and Titaness
Theia, sister of Helios (the Sun) and Selene (the Moon).

This meaning is clear when one looks at the original text of the
Septuagint:

(LXX) Isaiah 14:12 pws e3epesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh

The Greek directly translates as:

Isaiah 14:12. how did it fall from Ouranos (the Sky), Eosphoros (the
dawn-bringer), the morning riser, partnered to the earth, the one sent
towards all nations.

The reference concerning Eosphoros (“dawn-bringer”) can be translated from
the Greek as either “the dawn-bringer, the morning riser, wisdom of earth,
the teacher of all nations” or “the dawn-bringer pro-creating on
the earth, the one sent to all nations” and the reference to Ouranou which
is the possessive form of Ouranos can either be translated as the Heavens or
the Sky.

Note that "sunetribh", "to rub together", according to Liddell-Scott should
be taken to literally mean the act of pro-creation. In his book “The Golden
Bough”, Sir James Frazer concludes by suggesting the God of Sky and Thunder
was the original deity of the Proto-Indo-Europeans who Jacob Grimm and W
Warde Foweler implied was associated with the Oak cult. The theory was that
the Sky God was originally derived from the worship of God of Oak since the
belief was that Sky God produced the spark of lightening by the friction of
rubbing two pieces of oak against each other in the same way as our
ancestors produced fire. Frazer reverses this by inferring that the Sky god
become associated with Oak because of the frequency at which Oak was hit by
lighting. Whichever interpretation one chooses it is clear that "sunetribh",
infers the production of lightening, or the pro-creation of Ouranos on
mother Earth.

If the Greek text is taken as the basis for the quotes from Revelation, with
all the kind Epithets for one supposedly demonic according to the Authorised
Version, the contradictions disappear. The Morning Star is Christ, the
teacher of all nations. It is evident the contradictions seem to have been
brought about by an error in interpretation or translation alone.

The next passage further consolidates the observation:

Isaiah 14:13 su de eipas en th dianoia sou eis ton ouranon anabhsomai epanw
twn astrwn tou ouranou 8hsw ton 8ronon mou ka8iw en orei u7hlw epi ta orh ta
u7hla ta pros borran

Isaiah 14:13. but you said in your heart, to Ouranos I ascend, above the
star of Ouranos I set my throne, to sit on a high mountain among the highest
mountains to the north.

(astrwn is orbiter. Liddell-Scott makes a mistake by making it mean the
stars since it has no knowledge of ancient cosmology . Numerous other parts
of the bible use Asteria to refer to stars in their own right so there is a
clear distinction between the Astrwn and the Asterakia that are fixed in the
Astrwn or orbit. There exists not just one Astrwn but there are at least 7
corresponding to the 7 heavens or the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter,
Saturn, the Sun and the Moon. This is abundantly clear from Plato’s
description of retrograde orbits. *see bottom )

It is obvious that the reference to “the star of Ouranos” is the Morning
Star of Revelation, Lucifer or Eosphoros, ie. Venus or Aphrodite the
Daughter of the Greek God Ouranos or Uranus. Thus the one who is fallen
cannot be Lucifer, otherwise why would he be acceding past his own star, ie.
himself.

Who then can the Epithets of Isaiah 14:12 be for. Obviously they the cant be
for the one who has fallen, so who is left. If Christ is called the Morning
Star then Lucifer, or Eosphoros must have been perceived as epithets by the
early Christians, leaving only one plausible candidate for the subject of
the passage.

The text says the subject is “the partner of Earth” and the “apostle to all
nations”, apostle being either traveller or teacher. These epithets for
Christ also sound like epithets for God. But God is not mentioned here, or
is he.

The Greek word “Ouranou” also has another possible translation, that of
“Sky God”. The fact that his name is in the possessive form Ouranou, rather
than the passive “Ourano”, makes it clear that he alone is the subject of
the epithets, “the dawn-bringer,” “the morning riser,” “the partner of
Earth,” and the “apostle towards all nations”.

After the Church realised the meaning of the Greek text of the LXX passage
from Isaiah it was Demonised in the Authorised Version to hide the reference
to an Ancient God, but the denomination backfired and resulted in the
contradiction’s that I have referred to above.

The diabolical nature of Lucifer can be traced back to the mistranslation of
the Septuagint by St Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate (4th Century AD,
700 years after the original).

The later Latin translation reads:

(JER) Isaiah 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris
corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

(JER) Isaiah 14:12 How cut from the engraving of Lucifer, that is the
morning riser, fallen to earth with mortal men.

And as a reminder the Greek:

(LXX) Isaiah 14:12 pws e3epesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh

(LXX) Isaiah 14:12. how did it fall from Ouranos, the dawn-bringer, the
morning riser, partnered to the earth, the one who journeys towards all
nations.

This whole mess came about because the translator used "Caelo" engrave, (in
relief on metals), carve (on wood) or compose, instead of "Caelum", Sky or
Heaven or Glory to describe the Greek word Ouranos, (Caelum also means
engravers) and to make matters worse he rearranged and embellished the text.

But how could this mistranslation not have been caught. Any one reading the
Greek text would have seen that the reference to “Ouranou” is missing from
the Latin, and that there is no reference at all to engravings.

It is quite likely that the later Christians who had little understanding
that Uranus was Jehovah may have doctored the original Latin text by
reducing Caelum to Caelo thus demonising Lucifer, who according to Jerome
would otherwise have been God, making Lux-Fero into Lux-Furus or Ferox ie.
Light Destroyer, from Ferus meaning wild of uncivilised or Ferox meaning
warlike, rather than Light Bringer a common title for the supreme being.

It is clear to anyone that speaks Latin, even without the Greek text of the
Septuagint to compare it with, that Caelo has to be Caelum since cutting
something from an engraving, which is two dimensional is illogical.

Jerome’s successors, the illiterate uneducated politically appointed Popes
of the Franks, not only mixed up the Heavens with Engravings but they also
failed to read the true meaning of the Greek text.

Clearly if they had spoken Greek they would have realised like the early
Christians who wrote the Gospels, that Jehovah was the Sky God Uranus!

>
> > > Daniel's prophecy, of the seventy weeks, indicates that Christ had
> > > appear on earth when He did.
> >
> > Daniel's prophesy had nothing to do with Christ. It refers to his own
> > lifetime or the time the book was written.
>
> The ancient Jews, including the Essenes, believed that Daniel's
> prophecy of the 70 weeks determined the time of the Messiah's
> coming.

The Jewish sects of Qumran you are referring to are the Messianic Jews, the
Zelots, the Sicarri and possibly the Nazarenes depending on the origin of
the word. They never called themselves Essenes which is a Greek word.


> "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
> to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
> reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
> and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
> (Daniel 9:24, KJV)
>
> Seventy weeks, or seventy "sevens" of 360-day years, are determined for
> Daniel's people, Israel.

24 ebdomhkonta ebdomadev ekriyhsan epi ton laon sou kai epi thn polin siwn
suntelesyhnai thn amartian kai tav adikiav spanisai kai apaleiqai tav
adikiav kai dianohyhnai to orama kai doyhnai dikaiosunhn aiwnion kai
suntelesyhnai to orama kai eufranai agion agiwn

24 Seventy weeks are bestowed upon your people, and upon the city of Zion to
end the sin and your transgression. To lessen and blot out your
transgression, and to make the vision, and to give righteousness
everlasting, and to end the vision, and to join most holy.

It looks to me that the passage has been reconstructed form two separate
texts or doctored because part of it repeats itself.

Also I refuse to believe that the infinitive was used by the ancient Greeks
to represent the future tense, since in modern Greek it represents the
present. The Ancient Greeks did not conceive the flow of time or the future
as we do now, so I will translate the passage more correctly

"24 Seventy weeks transpire for your people and for the city of Zion. The
sin of your transgression comes to its end. Your transgression has been
lessened and ignored so the vision is assured. Everlasting righteousness is
given and the vision fulfilled bringing great holiness."

With this translation the original repetition is eradicated since the
passage is given its true meaning.

>
> "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
> commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
> Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
> shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
> (Daniel 9:25, KJV)
>
> The commandment to restore and rebuild the street and the wall was
> given by the Persian emperor Artaxerxes on March 14, 445 BC. The
> Messiah the Prince is Christ. The time between the commandment and
> the Messiah is seven weeks and threescore and two weeks, or 69 weeks.

What has something fulfilled in 445 BC have to do with Christ in 32/3 AD.

In any case where does the stuff about messiah and seven weeks come form,.
It's not in the Septuagint.

25 kai gnwsh kai dianohyhsh kai eufranyhsh kai eurhseiv prostagmata
apokriyhnai kai oikodomhseiv ierousalhm polin kuriw

25 Love, friendship understanding and the discovery of things to come reveal
themselves and the building of Jerusalem the city of God.

>
> "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not
> for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy
> the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
> and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
> (Daniel 9:26, KJV)

26 kai meta epta kai ebdomhkonta kai exhkonta duo apostayhsetai crisma kai
ouk estai kai basileia eynwn fyerei thn polin kai to agion meta tou cristou
kai hxei h sunteleia autou met orghv kai ewv kairou sunteleiav apo polemou
polemhyhsetai

OK the first stumbling block is the time.

Translating to English we have

26 After seven and seventy and sixty two stands up.....

Where are the units ? days, weeks, months or years.

What sort of number is "seven and seventy and sixty two" anyway.

After discussing this with my dad we concluded the first figure 77 was
months since the lunar calendar could on have been used at the time. 77
lunar months also happens to be exactly 6 years. The next figure could with
be days or weeks. If its weeks then that would amount to 1 year and 12 weeks
to add on, giving 7 years and 12 weeks. If its days then we have 6 years and
62 days. Take your pick.

"26 After seven and seventy and sixty two (.....) the anointing takes place
and is no more. A king of a nation destroys the city and the holy place
after it, the place of anointment, and this is the end of him by an oath
that in time results in war."

This passage talks about NO messiah whatsoever. Anybody thinking it to be a
messiah must be a complete illiterate.

Messianic Judaism cannot evolve within the Jewish community since any Jew
would know better.

>
> The Messiah, Christ, was "cut off", or rejected, on April 6, 32 AD,
> Palm Sunday, when He offered Himself as King (Matthew 21:8-11).
> The people of the prince (not Christ) are the Romans who destroyed
> the temple in 70 AD.

The Bible makes NO mention of the Jewish rebellion and destruction of the
temple in AD 70. This is HIGHLY suspicious since the revolt occurs during
the supposed lifetime of Paul. If this was a fulfilment of prophesy the why
isn't it included in the Gospels.

Also why do all the Gospels mention that Christ if from the town Nazareth.
There was no Nazareth until after AD 70. Why don't any of the authors know
the real meaning of the world Nazarene. The gospels can't have been written
until way after AD 140 since anyone living in Nazareth when it was founded
in AD 70 would have told them that it had not exited at the time of Christ.
The authors cant have been Nazarenes or known Christ or known anyone that
knew Christ since they allowed this inaccuracy to go unchallenged.

>
> "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
> midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
> cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
> desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
> poured upon the desolate."
> (Daniel 9:27, KJV)
>
> The "one week" here is the seventieth week which has yet to occur.

The destruction of the Temple in AD 70 and the complete obliteration of the
Jews in Palestine in AD 135 would have made this prophesy laughable.

Why would anyone want to write a gospel of the messiah at this time.

The gospels therefore cannot have been written until the 3rd century AD. But
it still doesn't fit. Why claim Jewish Messiah has come when there were no
longer any Jews.

What is even more strange is why would anyone want to follow such as gospel.

The only solution that I have is that Christianity was INVENTED in the 3rd
centaury and prior to that, between AD 70 and 200 had NO followers
whatsoever.

Somewhere around this time the Resurrection was concocted by Jewish members
of the Attis cult who created the so called Mathew Q text, based on the
story of the crucifixion of a Jewish revolutionary claiming to be Moses, the
beheading of John the Baptist and the Plagiarised Life of Apollonius by
Philostratus. This would put the concoction of the first Gospel at about AD
230 and the gospel of John at 312.

I finally guessed what Josephus meant by referring to the Sicarri bandits
prophets as "Egyptians". "The Egyptian" is was the title the Romans gave to
Moses, and Josephus not recognising it in Roman records left it unaltered.
Obviously by Josephus time the claims had long ended.

The story of Jesus riding into Jerusalem, enraging the priesthood and being
taken to be crucified may have been based on a real event, of which there
were many.

The story of John the Baptist is probably a real event and was probably
plagiarised to give the account of the early life of Christ. But his
preaching about the anointed one is IMPOSSIBLE if he ware a Jew. As I have
shown by my translation.

The sermon on the mount, parables, miracles and journeys of Jesus were
plagiarised from Apollonius and interwoven with Messianic Prophesy invented
by the 3rd C Romans. This is blatantly obvious since in Mark 7:24-30 the
daughter of a Greek woman is cured by Christ but in Mathew 15:21-82 the same
woman become a Canaanite. Obviously changed. Where was Canaan. I thought the
Jews destroyed it. There is also mention of a servant of a Roman Centurion
being healed Mathew 8:1-13, Luke 7:1-10.

Since all the Gospels have the sermon on the Mount in different places (I
thin Luke has is twice) this was probably added later. Immediately following
the sermon in both Mathew and Luke comes the story of the Centurion, which
clearly indicates plagurisation form Apollonius.

The resurrection story is inconsistent in all the gospel so has obviously be
tampered with. Infact in the first 3 gospels there is indications that the
are in fact 2 separate accounts following each other. In the original
account the sepulchre is completely empty, end of story. Then bolted on to
this the final passage is repeated and Jesus is added to the new account
with the ending of the old accounts doctored so that Peter who is with the 2
Marys becomes an Angel, 2 Angels, or an unknown Man in the other 3. In fact
in Luke the repeated passage occurs twice. The last repetition in Luke is
probably the original text of the original ending.

The story of the nativity of Christ was of course the last bit to be added,
and clearly plagurised separately from Pagan, Hindu and Buddhist mythology.

> > The Egyptian peasants only recognised the value of Gold.
>
> The written texts with elaborate and beautiful drawings could
> easily be exchanged for gold.

Who would pay for them ? Are you saying that the local mafia bosses had
their own elicit art collections.

>
> > Oh yes. All of his 20 arms, 70 legs, 15 hands, 28 heads, 21 torsos,
> > and so on.
>
> Of course, people started to exaggerate and extend the original story,
> much like Plutarch. Nevertheless, the pre-church age Egyptians still
> believed and claimed genuine body parts of Osiris were buried in
> various locations throughout Egypt.

Why didn't they try putting him back together then. Obviously the believed
he had already been resurrected into a new body, hence the ritual of forming
spices and dough into crescents. The crescent be the Symbol of Tammuz, the
Star that of Ishtar, a portrayed on the Turkish flag.

>
> > > texts, there was a belief that the body must continue intact for
> > > the deceased to live in the next world, and that every living
> > > Egyptian had a ba and a ka. Upon death, the ba and ka left the
> > > body but then had to return to it in order for a person to live
> > > forever. The ba and the ka had to recognize the body in order to
> > > return to it.
> >
> > Ands thats why they put markers on ordinary peoples graves.
>
> Markers do not help the body to continue intact.
>
> > > Mummification was too elaborate and too costly to ever be
> > > available for the majority of Egyptians. Would the average poor
> > > Egyptian, who could not be mummified, believe that the afterlife
> > > was unavailable as a result?
> >
> > Nobody really believed that the would come back to earth except the
> > pharaohs. The resurrection was in the afterlife.
>
> "The Pyramid Texts are categoric that the king becomes a star soul
> after death and, more specifically, joins Osiris-Orion in the sky.
> Many passages leave us with no doubt in this matter:

Sky = Heaven

> ...
> "There can be little doubt that the Pyramid texts make a clear
> statement that the dead kings become stars, especially seen in the
> lower eastern sky. They also tell us that it is the souls of departed
> kings which become stars:

Then there must have been an unusually large number of visible supernovae in
ancient Egypt then. How come they are not documented.

> ...
> "Thus the dead king was an Osiris and his soul was an Osiris soul,
> whose depiction in the sky was Orion. The Pyramid Texts call the
> starry afterworld of Osiris the Duat, and it is in this Duat region
> that the astral souls become established."
> ("The Orion Mystery", p.90, Bauval & Gilbert)
>
> > In any case Orisirs wasn't the only God that came back form the dead.
> >
> > Look at Herakles, who goes into Hades to rescue Theseus. ...
>
> The twelve labours of Hercules are from the Library of Apollodorus,

They are also written about by Homer and Plutarch.

> which although are extant under Apollodorus's name, are not by him.
>

Meaning ?

> Hercules had to really struggle in the various contests. Unlike the
> stories involving Hercules in Greek mythology, there is no contest
> going on between Christ and Satan. Although Satan is vastly more

So what was the Temptation of Christ all bout then. Why do Luke and John
invoke Satan for leading Judas to betray Jesus then.

> powerful than humans, he is completely powerless against Christ.

Wants revelation all bout then. Christ needs and entire army to defeat
Satan.

> Christians are chosen and predestinated by Christ before the
> foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5).

CODSWALLOP - Chosen people racist bigotry.

dpwozney

unread,
Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
to
In article <90gm6v$r2g$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>,
"Aggie-Tom" <cyprusandhe...@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:
...

> In any case Orisirs wasn't the only God that came back form the dead.
>
> Look at Herakles, who goes into Hades to rescue Theseus. Since I've
> mentioned him, Theseus comes back and he's a mortal like Sisyphus,
> Orpheus, Odysseus, and Pelops. Somehow I think that Pelops shoulder
> blade which was eaten by Aphrodite was actually his genitals. This
> would then link his story to that to Osiris, since Pelops was also
> cut into pieces, like Osiris and fed to the Gods in a broth. When
> he was brought back to life his shouder blade/genital organ was
> replaced, like Orisris with one carved from ivory.
> Funny how a cult never grew around him though.

Your attempts, to closely link Greek gods and mythological figures with
Egyptian counterparts, appear to be very similar to what Mary Lefkowitz
refers to as "Mystical Egyptian Hermeticism" in her book "Not Out of
Africa", an excerpt of which is available at

THE MYTH OF THE EGYPTIAN MYSTERY SYSTEM
http://www.proeuropa.gr/athenaeum/lefkowitz.htm

(some selected quotes)

"A striking quality of Freemasonry is its "imaginative attachment to
the religion and symbolism of the Egyptians."(50) The Egypt to which
the Masons refer is of course an imaginary one, but this was the Egypt
that was rediscovered in the Renaissance: for convenience, I shall call
it Mystical Egypt (to distinguish it from the historical Egypt that was
first explored scientifically and understood only in the nineteenth
century)."
...
"Among the magic arts was the mastery of the "symbolism" of
hieroglyphics. Even in antiquity, most educated Greeks and Romans
thought that hieroglyphs were used primarily as symbolic
representations, rather than as representations of specific sounds or
things, as is usually the case."

-----

Since all the learned Greek scholars, such as Diodorus and Plutarch,
did not understand the nature of hieroglyphic writing, the following
question arises:

Why did the Greeks, from the time when Alexander the Great conquered
Egypt and was crowned as pharoah in 332 BC, to the time when the
Rosetta stone was supposed to have been inscribed in 196 BC, and
after until they were conquered by the Romans, not obtain from the
Egyptians (who were their subjects) a simple hieroglyphic phonetic
alphabet chart, such as the one at
http://www.watson.org/rivendell/historyegypt.html (except, of course,
for Greek rather than English) ?

The Greeks used the services of Egyptian priests such as Manetho.
Ptolemy I, a Macedonian, established the library and museum in
Alexandria. The time, from 332 B.C. to 196 B.C and on, was a time of
great scholarship when works like the translation of the Hebrew Bible
into Greek were accomplished.

Why would the great sacred language of the Egyptians be completely
ignored? It seems rather incredible.