Greece loves Serbia !?
Tor Ingels
I have a little problem.
From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
I have come to understand that Greece has a very
friendly attitude towards Serbia.
Now I really need to understand why?
Religious reasons?
Say it aint true, it will make me sad. Strange church then.
Past alliances?
Please tell me more...like helped eachother in battle?
Similar history?
Both have suffered alot or something like that.
Similar culture?
This would surprise me.
Economic reasons?
What kind of trade do the countries have? My girlfriend
told me that Greece didnt care about the embargo, is that true?
General "bad" foreignpolicy in Greek politics?
Hardly the reason, since all of the greeks I have spoken to
side with the serbs in a way I cant understand.
The only reason I have in my mind today is; from my talks with greeks
(cant read newspapers yet *sob*) I detect a fairly large dislike of
USA and even UN and I might as well toss in Europe there too. There seem to
be a tendency almost a need to go against those mentioned above.
My girlfriend reason they (includes me now I am swedish) have done and still
do alot of things wrong. My reason sort of linger at the fact that here came
an issue Greece could go against the above countries and organizations.
Greece thinks Serbia is being misstreated and remembers all the times she
has been misstreated. Is this a valid thought of mine?
It all makes me very sad. And I really would like to understand how the
debate and the actions has been in Greece during the last balkan conflict.
Are there any litterature that grasp the whole picture of Greece-Serbia
relations? Is there tight brotherly ties between Greece and Serbia?
It makes me sad because I cant understand it. If my best
friend (make that a country for the analogy) does
something stupid I would critizice
him the most, because I care and it hurts me to see the outcome of the
stupidity. I will not hold hands and pretend all is fine (I realice it
aint so applicable on countries foreign policies, but it is on people
views, the greek people).
Please tell me how it all is so I dont have to think Greece is just being
rebellious, which in a sense is the most acceptable reason for me, but
will affect me in the sense that I need to tell greek people that they
need to be more active in global politics.
Last question that comes into my mind. Has the proSerbian stand affected Greece
in any way? Worse friendship with other countries?
Please direct me to where I can get these questions answered or please
answer them. It will make me understand what shaped my girlfriend and her
friends and perhaps also make sure that love will prevail our political
discussions (smile).
She is a sucker (sorry) for autonomia though and a little greek communist
that hit me with British bombings of greek-communists after WWII to
compare with the UN bombings of Bosnian-Serbs forces. Both very much wrong
according to her.
Enough! I love her!
So please make me understand greek politics now!
Tor.
-tor...@student.umu.se- Since it upsets me that I cant use edit on this header
George A. Papadopoulos
tori...@student.umu.se (Tor Ingels) writes:
>From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
>I have come to understand that Greece has a very
>friendly attitude towards Serbia.
>Now I really need to understand why?
Mass media brain-washing if you ask me.
Until the war broke in ex-Yugo, the average greek didn't have
specific preferences (or dislikes for that matter) towards Serbs,
Croats, etc. (with the obvious exception of the FYROMians).
I could buy the point that for historical reasons we wouldn't feel
particularly inclined to support the Bosnian muslim population
but I don't see why we would have any problems towards the Croats.
Suddenly, Serbs became our "brothers", and everybody else there the bad guys.
And as I said, I think these ideas have been imposed on us by
orchestrated propaganda.
Now, I am not critisizing the greek government's policy in the area.
I think it is to Greece's interests to support the Serbs (although the
recent developments regarding the recognition of FYROM may force
us to reconsider).
But this sudden love affair between the two peoples is unnatural and
artificial.
Greeting from Nicosia
George
http://www.ucy.cac.cy/ucy/cs/papadopo.html
Boris Bjelica
On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Tor Ingels wrote:
> I have a little problem.
>
> From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
> I have come to understand that Greece has a very
> friendly attitude towards Serbia.
> Now I really need to understand why?
>
> Religious reasons?
> Say it aint true, it will make me sad. Strange church then.
You seem very undereducated just by phrasing your questions. Serbian
Church is closely related to Greek. As a matter of fact, due to early
autocephalous status of SPC (Serbian Orthodox Church) in 1219, Serbian
chruch blindly followed old Greek kanons and rules; the fact that Old
Slavonic language was introduced just facilitated the spread of Orthodox
religion among the Serbs. As I say, the cultural and ethnic difference
was the only difference. Serbs were part of the Byzantine empire for a
very long time, and their own empires were in essence, pro-Byzantine.
Serbian Tsar Dusan dreamed of reuniting Serbs and Greeks on new terms and
defeating advancig Ottomans.
Why are Austrian and German allied? Why are Russian and Bulgarian allied?
Why are Sweeds allied to Norwegians?
> Past alliances?
> Please tell me more...like helped eachother in battle?
Like, you ask questions like a 12-year old. I guess you either come from
a country with a very short history or something, but there is much more
to the "alliance" than you think. We talk about 1500 years of history
here and fairly close ties... not as close as some try to show, but quite
close. Never in history did two nations have any major dispute and were
always allied against their common enemies... and YES, those enemies were
the same.
> Similar history?
Yup.
> Both have suffered alot or something like that.
Yes... "or something".
> Similar culture?
> This would surprise me.
Well, I guess you read too much about Ancient Greece, so you think Greeks
prey to Zeus "or something". Well, be ready for surprise -- Serbs
basically adopted their religion from the Greeks... so, if you just think
a little, that would imply a "similar culture". It's up to you.
> Economic reasons?
That as well... derived from other, right. You're not gonna go ballistic
about the trade with your enemy, only when you have to.
> What kind of trade do the countries have? My girlfriend
> told me that Greece didnt care about the embargo, is that true?
No. Greece did take part in the embargo. Greek ships patrolled Adriatic
and blocked Montenegrin waters. However, Greece did oppose it and
supported Serbs even though, as a member of EU, followed its policy.
> General "bad" foreignpolicy in Greek politics?
> Hardly the reason, since all of the greeks I have spoken to
> side with the serbs in a way I cant understand.
So, what is the problem? Please ellaborate.
> The only reason I have in my mind today is; from my talks with greeks
> (cant read newspapers yet *sob*) I detect a fairly large dislike of
> USA and even UN and I might as well toss in Europe there too. There seem to
> be a tendency almost a need to go against those mentioned above.
Not true at all. Keep reading.
> My girlfriend reason they (includes me now I am swedish) have done and still
> do alot of things wrong. My reason sort of linger at the fact that here came
> an issue Greece could go against the above countries and organizations.
> Greece thinks Serbia is being misstreated and remembers all the times she
> has been misstreated. Is this a valid thought of mine?
That is just partially valid. Greece knows what happened to its Cyprus
because of American interests, and YES, American interests messed the
things in teh Balkans big time. That's why you, in Sweden, just get news
about "bad Serbs" because it fits your country's policy for some reason.
Never will they mention up north that 70,000 Serbs were killed in this
war, that 1,000,000 are misplaced, that they are kicked out of their
ethnic lands and "ethnically cleansed", that a tremendeous number of women
were raped... all the attributes given to Serbs. I don't say Serbs didn't
do it, but you guys love closing your eyes.
I would personally get very mad if Turkey messed with Greeks again and get
the support. I already see numerous Serbian volunteers going to fight for
Greece (just like a number of Greeks came to bosnia).
> It all makes me very sad. And I really would like to understand how the
> debate and the actions has been in Greece during the last balkan conflict.
Why does it make you sad? You probably hate Serbs... Well, they're
people like any other -- they're homo sapiens, have two legs, two arms,
etc.
> Are there any litterature that grasp the whole picture of Greece-Serbia
> relations? Is there tight brotherly ties between Greece and Serbia?
There is a numerous literature. the easyiest to access are the history
books. "Brotherly" ties is probably the word even though two nations are
not ethnically close.
> It makes me sad because I cant understand it. If my best
> friend (make that a country for the analogy) does
> something stupid I would critizice
> him the most, because I care and it hurts me to see the outcome of the
> stupidity. I will not hold hands and pretend all is fine (I realice it
> aint so applicable on countries foreign policies, but it is on people
> views, the greek people).
You see, Serbs did lots of "wrong" things, but your union (EU) and UN
screwed things big time. If you have three little kids fighting, and you
punish only one, that one would get even more resistent, while other two
would see they could get away with anything... that's what your Union did,
sir. Have you ever asked yourself a question what is the conflict all
about. Have you ever heard of 700,000 slaughtered Serbs in WW2 by the
same ones who promised them "democracy" in 1990? I guess it's easy to
skip that.
> Please tell me how it all is so I dont have to think Greece is just being
> rebellious, which in a sense is the most acceptable reason for me, but
> will affect me in the sense that I need to tell greek people that they
> need to be more active in global politics.
Bogus point.
> Last question that comes into my mind. Has the proSerbian stand affected Greece
> in any way? Worse friendship with other countries?
I don't think so. Greece has had same "friends" and same enemies as
before. You forgot that not only Greece was supportive of Serbia, but
more less all of the Orthodox world. And yet, the "support" didn't mean
being "pro-Milosevic", but simply understanding the conflict, which you
don't. For you, everything is black and white.
> Please direct me to where I can get these questions answered or please
> answer them. It will make me understand what shaped my girlfriend and her
> friends and perhaps also make sure that love will prevail our political
> discussions (smile).
"Love will prevail" as you define your terms, right? So, let's go and
kill all the Serbs. Sounds so lovely, and I heard it before. That's why
Serbs don't live anymore in Krajina and Western Bosnia, where they lived
for a millenium. Like, I come to Sweden, kick you out, and say it's mine,
and then let's "make love". Cooool...
> She is a sucker (sorry) for autonomia though and a little greek communist
> that hit me with British bombings of greek-communists after WWII to
> compare with the UN bombings of Bosnian-Serbs forces. Both very much wrong
> according to her.
"Bosnian Serb" forces turned out to be 1,300 dead civilians and 11
destroyed churches, three schools, 42 bridges, communication towers,
factories, shopping centers... wow, what a hit!
> Tor.
>
> -tor...@student.umu.se- Since it upsets me that I cant use edit on this header
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boris Bjelica bje...@ece.orst.edu
Electrical & Computer Engineering bjel...@flop.engr.orst.edu
Oregon State University http://www.ece.orst.edu/~bjelica
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boris Bjelica
On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, George A. Papadopoulos wrote:
> In article <torins95-170...@mac39.hist.umu.se>
> tori...@student.umu.se (Tor Ingels) writes:
>
> >From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
> >I have come to understand that Greece has a very
> >friendly attitude towards Serbia.
> >Now I really need to understand why?
>
> Mass media brain-washing if you ask me.
>
> Until the war broke in ex-Yugo, the average greek didn't have
> specific preferences (or dislikes for that matter) towards Serbs,
> Croats, etc. (with the obvious exception of the FYROMians).
This is true for one single reason, and that is because Greece was at
certain odds with the SFR Yugoslavia. Tito supported Greek communists
after WW2, and promoted te "Macedonian" question. However, being from
Cyprus yourself, obviously doesn't make you much relevant source. If you
go to Greek Macedonia, you'll see they know very well who Serbs are. As a
matter of fact, they used to call all Yugoslavs "Serbs" which often caused
unpleasant situations.
> I could buy the point that for historical reasons we wouldn't feel
> particularly inclined to support the Bosnian muslim population
> but I don't see why we would have any problems towards the Croats.
I don't see that Croatia has a problem with Croats... except for the fact
that WW2 Croatia exterminated 700,000 Serbs just for being Orthodox; their
official reasoning is that all Orthodox are "dirty Gypsies". Croatian
nationalists call Serbs "Byzantine bastards".. I think that would explain
it... or maybe not.
> Suddenly, Serbs became our "brothers", and everybody else there the bad guys.
> And as I said, I think these ideas have been imposed on us by
> orchestrated propaganda.
I fully agree that we all live in certain propahgandas. They inflate
during hard times. At the same time, you don't seem to know much about
Greko-Serbian history. These two Balkan nations have always backed each
other in hardest times. Those are the times when "propagandas" take
place. I didn't personally liker the support Milosevic got from teh Greek
government because he is one of the most responsible for the Serbian
tragedy (as well as others'). However, close relation between Serbs and
Greeks was always there. As I said, the reason why you didn't really hear
of Serbs is because Greece experienced Yugoslavia just like it used to
Serbia prior to Yugoslavian formation.
> Now, I am not critisizing the greek government's policy in the area.
> I think it is to Greece's interests to support the Serbs (although the
> recent developments regarding the recognition of FYROM may force
> us to reconsider).
> But this sudden love affair between the two peoples is unnatural and
> artificial.
"Sudden love affair"? I think you would be in trouble for saying that to
many Greeks, you know. It's simply not true. Either you don't know the
history, or are just ashamed, I don't know... The fact is that there has
been an over-emphasis of the relation, but I guess that's what happens
during rough times. Greece wants to become the major Balkan power and its
center, and it needs Serbian support for that. That's all politics, not
"love". The fact is that two countries have close cultural and historical
ties, plus a huge economic interest because Serbia is Greek land gateway
to Europe, and Greece is Serbia's gateway to Middle East and
Mediterranean. Also, the fact that Turkey is one of the "designers" of
the war in Bosnia (I think you skipped that, or were not aware), of course
that you'd be against them. For God's sake, they torched half of your
island and expelled Greek Cypriots from Denktash's "republic". If you
don't draw parallels, that's very sad. it's easy to back away from
"Serbian genocide" because media is full of it... hey, don't you think
there's been some "media brainwashing" as well, or was it just Greeks
brainwashing their people.
Cheers
> Greeting from Nicosia
> George
> http://www.ucy.cac.cy/ucy/cs/papadopo.html
Norman Bates
>I have a little problem.
>From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
>I have come to understand that Greece has a very
>friendly attitude towards Serbia.
>Now I really need to understand why?
They have much in common, they both behave like bullies. They have both
conspired to carve up Macedonia. They both have had nuts running their
governments.
>Religious reasons?
>Say it aint true, it will make me sad. Strange church then.
Yep, both Orthodox. A big part of the reason.
>Past alliances?
>Please tell me more...like helped eachother in battle?
Both conspired to carve up Macedonian and deny ethnic Macedonians their very
own homeland.
>Similar history?
>Both have suffered alot or something like that.
Both were Ottoman subjects.
>Similar culture?
>This would surprise me.
Yep. Despite what others say, most of the "cultures" in the balkans are
very similar. For the most part the cultures are based on the
Byzantines and the Ottomans. Greece may have become more western in recent
years, but is still a balkan country at heart.
>General "bad" foreignpolicy in Greek politics?
>Hardly the reason, since all of the greeks I have spoken to
>side with the serbs in a way I cant understand.
Has to do more with similar cultures and anti-westernism. Shit, I even side
with the Greeks and Serbs on some issues.
>The only reason I have in my mind today is; from my talks with greeks
>(cant read newspapers yet *sob*) I detect a fairly large dislike of
>USA and even UN and I might as well toss in Europe there too. There seem to
>be a tendency almost a need to go against those mentioned above.
>My girlfriend reason they (includes me now I am swedish) have done and still
>do alot of things wrong. My reason sort of linger at the fact that here came
>an issue Greece could go against the above countries and organizations.
>Greece thinks Serbia is being misstreated and remembers all the times she
>has been misstreated. Is this a valid thought of mine?
Yep. You see, whitey tries to impose his world view on the region and it is
JUST PLAIN WRONG. Whitey lives his daily lie under a false facade of
orderliness and "open mindedness." But when he gets behind closed doors, he
stabs you in the back.
We are hot-blooded, emotional people but at least we are out front with our
feelings. As an uncle of a cousin of mine once said: "EAST AND WEST DO NOT
MIX!"
DannyK
THE TRUE MACEDONIAN
Lenard
> In article <torins95-170...@mac39.hist.umu.se>
tori...@student.umu.se (Tor Ingels) writes:
>
>>Greece has a very friendly attitude towards Serbia.
> >Now I really need to understand why?
>
> They have much in common, they both behave like bullies. They have both
> conspired to carve up Macedonia. They both have had nuts running their
> governments.
>
> >Religious reasons?
> >Say it aint true, it will make me sad. Strange church then.
>
> Yep, both Orthodox. A big part of the reason.
>
> >Past alliances? Please tell me more...like helped eachother in battle?
>
> Both conspired to carve up Macedonian and deny ethnic Macedonians their very
> own homeland.
>
> >Similar history?
> >Both have suffered alot or something like that.
>
> Both were Ottoman subjects.
Talking of disfunctionals and abused paranoids? Throw in Russia too.
>
> >Similar culture?
> >This would surprise me.
>
> Yep. Despite what others say, most of the "cultures" in the balkans are
> very similar. For the most part the cultures are based on the
> Byzantines and the Ottomans. Greece may have become more western in recent
> years, but is still a balkan country at heart.
You mean backgammon-playng turkish-qava-drinkig womyn-hating
icon-thumping Greece? Humbug, yeah humbag and hogwash.
> > from my talks with greeks
> >(cant read newspapers yet *sob*) I detect a fairly large dislike of
> >USA and even UN and I might as well toss in Europe there too. There seem to
> >be a tendency almost a need to go against those mentioned above.
> >My girlfriend reason they (includes me now I am swedish) have done and still
> >do alot of things wrong.
US too decadent, too homosexual, too secular, too welcoming of Ayrabs and
other Muslims, no Mount Athos here just Presbyterians. Same for Europe,
except for idol-worshiping Serbs and Bulg... Oops, Russians.
L. M.
--
Petros Liapis
>
> I have a little problem.
>
> From my greek girlfriend and now this newsgroup
> friendly attitude towards Serbia.
> Now I really need to understand why?
>
> Past alliances?
> Similar history?
> Similar culture?
> Economic reasons?
[some editing took place here... ]
NONE of the above !!!! Although you will find a lot of Greeks say that they
simpathise with Serbia because of Religious, cultural, historical e.t.c
reasons, that is not true because before the war in the Balkans, the two
countries were not that close !!!
The main reason is that the Serbs , for good or bad, had the guts to fight
trying to keep Yugoslavia in one piece ..... unlike Greece who hasn't done that
against Turkey. 37% of Cyprus has been occupied by the Tyrks since 1974 and the
Greek and G/C side still try to kick the turks out by using ... UN resolutions
and expecting from the "big ones" to do something about it.... while the "big
ones" do nothing about the problem
In addition to the Cyprus problem : Greece has been forced into an expencive
and dangerous arms race with Turkey, Greek air space is constantlly violated
by Turkish aircrafts, Turkey threatens Greece with WAR in case Greece expands
its territorial waters to 12 miles in accordance with the international law, in
1987 we has a major Greco-Turkish crisis, and only a few months ago Turkey
caused another major crisis in the Aegean claiming a small Greek island and
disputing the rights of Greece in over 3.000 islands in the Aegean !!!
As you understand all that unger by the Turkish provocations builds up inside
the Greek people. So, in the eyes of the Greeks THE SERBS FOUGHT A WAR THAT THE
GREEKS WOULD HAVE TO FIGHT ... but they haven't done it yet.
Insteed of Serbia it could have been Bulgaria or Rumania .. or any country in
the Balkans. Yet, the resoult would had been the same, the Greeks will had
morally support that country. Greeks can relate to any confict of that nature,
because they feel threatened by Turkey.
To closely watch a Christian-Muslim fight taking place in the Balkans prepares
the Greeks for a war that they will posibilly have to fight in the near future.
Even members of the Greek Government and Parliament sayed that they may be a
"hot incident" with Turkey in the near future. The war in the former Yugoslavia
gives a pshycological lesson to Greeks.
Another reason is that Greece went through a cilil war after the end of WW II
and that makes the Greeks (especially the older ones) very suspicious about the
involvment of the "big ones" in the area.
> What kind of trade do the countries have? My girlfriend
> told me that Greece didnt care about the embargo, is that true?
Actually the embargo was very strict, because Greece had an embargo against
FYROM at the same time !!! From the Bulgarian and Rumanian side however, the
embargo was not so strict since both countries needed foreign currency.
Bulgaria and Rumania kept a "low profile" durring the war that is why they
haven't been mentioned so much by the media. Greece on the other side, was
involved in the UN-Serb negotiations and that is why the pro-Serb label was
given to Greece.
> General "bad" foreignpolicy in Greek politics?
> Hardly the reason, since all of the greeks I have spoken to
> side with the serbs in a way I cant understand.
Again, Serbs fought a war that Greeks may have to fight in the not so distant
future. I know it is hard to understand but that how it is.
Another thing that you should know is that Greece is placing high hopes on
Russia after the colapse of communism, because both countries are Orthodox and
have problems with Turkey.
> The only reason I have in my mind today is; from my talks with greeks
> (cant read newspapers yet *sob*) I detect a fairly large dislike of
> USA and even UN and I might as well toss in Europe there too. There seem to
> be a tendency almost a need to go against those mentioned above.
> My girlfriend reason they (includes me now I am swedish) have done and still
> do alot of things wrong. My reason sort of linger at the fact that here came
> an issue Greece could go against the above countries and organizations.
> Greece thinks Serbia is being misstreated and remembers all the times she
> has been misstreated. Is this a valid thought of mine?
Greece is bitter with US because nothing has been done to find a solution to
the Cyprus problem, although Turkey blindly obeys US.
UN is virtualy harmless and Greece realised that all these resolutions
regarding Cyprus mean nothing!
EC cares more about money than human rights and the safety of the member
states. Furthermore, EC sees Turkey as a cheap labor area and wants to make a
profit out of it .... but Greece veto any EC finances to Turkey. That creates a
tention in the EC but not a serious one. Britains veto on major financial
issues is more serious than all the Greek vetos together !!!!
..and you are right when you say that Greece relates to Serbia when it comes to
mistreatment !!... and I am not talking about the war I am talking about the
breaking of the country into pieces.... again see Cyprus.
> It all makes me very sad. And I really would like to understand how the
> debate and the actions has been in Greece during the last balkan conflict.
> Are there any litterature that grasp the whole picture of Greece-Serbia
> relations? [...]
I told you the Greek-Serbian were not much different than the Greek-Bulgarian
one, or the Greek-Rumanian. Yet, in a country split into pieces Greeks see
Cyprus, and the Turkish aggression in the Aegean. This "feeling" and insecurity
made Greeks to sympathise with Serbia
> Please tell me how it all is so I dont have to think Greece is just being
> rebellious, which in a sense is the most acceptable reason for me, but
> will affect me in the sense that I need to tell greek people that they
> need to be more active in global politics.
Greece is not rebelious, rarelly objects anything in the EC ...unless it has to
do with Turkey !!!... when you talk politics to Greeks after 1974 you talk
about the Greek-Turkish problems.
> Last question that comes into my mind. Has the proSerbian stand affected Greece
> in any way? Worse friendship with other countries?
I believe Greece got the proSerb label by the press because non of them took a
minute to think about what is happening in the area. As long as they had mass
graves, murdering of civilians and raped women in their evening news that was
good enough for them.
Personally, I believe that the proSerbian label has done some damage to the
image of the country, but not a big one since the war is over. But, as I sayed
Greece will had re-acted in the same way if it was another Balkan country and
not Serbia.
> Please direct me to where I can get these questions answered or please
> answer them. It will make me understand what shaped my girlfriend and her
> friends and perhaps also make sure that love will prevail our political
> discussions (smile).
Avoid political discussions with Greeks !! Greeks do not discuss politics the
way Swedes or Norvegians do !!! Greeks speak loud and use body language to
express their feelings. This is not usual in the North !! ... but don't be
afraid, your girlfriend's relatives will not bite you !!!
.... just agree with everything they say .....
> She is a sucker (sorry) for autonomia though and a little greek communist
> that hit me with British bombings of greek-communists after WWII to
> compare with the UN bombings of Bosnian-Serbs forces. Both very much wrong
> according to her.
Another thing, Greeks of all political parties feel the same when it comes to
dividing countries !!.... see Cyprus again !!!
> Enough! I love her!
..good for her !!!!
Petros Liapis
> Tor.
Elifina
: As you understand all that unger by the Turkish provocations builds up inside
: the Greek people. So, in the eyes of the Greeks THE SERBS FOUGHT A WAR THAT THE
: GREEKS WOULD HAVE TO FIGHT ... but they haven't done it yet.
You know what Petros, that's enough with your stupidity. What do you
mean they fought a war? you call this a normal war, you? they
exterminated Bosnian Muslims and they are sooooooo stupid! because those
Bosnian Muslims have nothing to do with Turks at all! they have been
killing all those poor people thinking that they are Turks.
So By saying "the serbs fought a war that the Greeks would have the
fight" you mean to say yeah we wish we were in their places so that we
could kill all those "Turks". Pathetic you! And do you think that it is
easy for you to go on war? in order to fight you have to know how to be
united! why do you think you Greeks always had your country dominated by
the others? the only time Greece was really united was during the
Persian war and then you were always divided, and that's why Romans,
Venitians, Turks invaded your country. How do you think we Turks got rid
of all those Europeans during the Independance War? Because the whole
country became one, even the women helped, they carried guns. Don't talk
big, stop bull shitting! aren't you tired yet of criticizing Turkey and
Turks! go home take a big breath!
If you feeling threatened by us, then do something! it is not our fault
if you have been under the occupation of the Ottomans for 500 years! if
you were incapable of doing anything!
Yeter bea!
Petros Liapis
>
> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : As you understand all that unger by the Turkish provocations builds up inside
> : the Greek people. So, in the eyes of the Greeks THE SERBS FOUGHT A WAR THAT THE
> : GREEKS WOULD HAVE TO FIGHT ... but they haven't done it yet.
>
> mean they fought a war? you call this a normal war, you? they
> exterminated Bosnian Muslims and they are sooooooo stupid! because those
> Bosnian Muslims have nothing to do with Turks at all! they have been
> killing all those poor people thinking that they are Turks.
Elif you should better read thge rest of my posting before you respont again. I was
refering to CYprus !!! where the G/C are still waiting to go back to their homes !!!
They did not fight the Turks, they thought that the UN, US and the rest of the world
will help them. IT did not happened !!!
> So By saying "the serbs fought a war that the Greeks would have the
> fight" you mean to say yeah we wish we were in their places so that we
could kill all those "Turks". Pathetic you! And do you think that it is
easy for you to go on war? in order to fight you have to know how to be
united! why do you think you Greeks always had your country dominated by
the others? the only time Greece was really united was during the
Persian war and then you were always divided, and that's why Romans,
Venitians, Turks invaded your country. How do you think we Turks got rid
of all those Europeans during the Independance War? Because the whole
country became one, even the women helped, they carried guns. Don't talk
> big, stop bull shitting! aren't you tired yet of criticizing Turkey and
> Turks! go home take a big breath!
Is this your TRUE face ELif ??? thanl you for sharing it with us.... Before you
explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
... which you deleted ....
> If you feeling threatened by us, then do something! it is not our fault
> if you have been under the occupation of the Ottomans for 500 years! if
> you were incapable of doing anything!
The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
Furthermore, YES I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE A GRECO-TURKISH WAR soon. The
occupation of Cyprus and the war threats against Greece can not be continued for
long. And it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the West and Russia will side with
Greece !!!.
Petros Liapis
> Yeter bea!
Elifina
: Is this your TRUE face ELif ??? thanl you for sharing it with us.... Before you
: explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
: ... which you deleted ....
:
of course, when it comes to the truth it hurts, and you blame me for
being nationalist! look at yourself! you are the pathetic nationalist!
and as long as people like you exist there will definitely be a war
between Greece and Turkey. For months you haven't stopped talking about
Turkey, I think you are disturbed, mentally disturbed
now stop redundancy, stop repeating yourself, enough ENOUGH ENOUGH
ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!!
:
> If you feeling threatened by us, then do something! it is not our fault
: > if you have been under the occupation of the Ottomans for 500 years! if
: > you were incapable of doing anything!
: The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
: freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
: Furthermore, YES I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE A GRECO-TURKISH WAR soon. The
: occupation of Cyprus and the war threats against Greece can not be continued for
: long. And it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the West and Russia will side with
: Greece !!!.
: Petros Liapis
:
: > Yeter bea!
--
Boris Bjelica
On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Petros Liapis wrote:
> Elifina wrote:
deleted...
> > big, stop bull shitting! aren't you tired yet of criticizing Turkey and
> > Turks! go home take a big breath!
>
> Is this your TRUE face ELif ??? thanl you for sharing it with us.... Before you
> explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
> ... which you deleted ....
>
>
> > If you feeling threatened by us, then do something! it is not our fault
> > if you have been under the occupation of the Ottomans for 500 years! if
> > you were incapable of doing anything!
>
> The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
> freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
This is absolutely true. Greeks have started the process in which Asians
were delivered to where they belong - Asia. No offense to Asia nor their
dominant cultures, but the bad thing is that Balkan Christians didn't send
intruders and aggressors back where they belong.
> Furthermore, YES I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE A GRECO-TURKISH WAR soon. The
> occupation of Cyprus and the war threats against Greece can not be continued for
> long. And it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the West and Russia will side with
> Greece !!!.
I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
Asian place, has shown its irredentist goals quite clearly, and is trying
to restore some form of their fallen Islamic Empire which made the
Balkans backward compare to the rest of Europe. So, the conclusion is
that they should stay away -- in the Bosnian case they didn't, in the
Cyprus case they didn't, and I think the "next" should be given a clear
military reply.
>
>
> Petros Liapis
>
> > Yeter bea!
Petros Liapis
> : explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
> : ... which you deleted ....
>
>
> of course, when it comes to the truth it hurts, and you blame me for
> being nationalist! look at yourself! you are the pathetic nationalist!
> and as long as people like you exist there will definitely be a war
> between Greece and Turkey. For months you haven't stopped talking about
> Turkey, I think you are disturbed, mentally disturbed
> now stop redundancy, stop repeating yourself, enough ENOUGH ENOUGH
> ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!!
You mean you don't see anything wrong in Turkey ??!!
What about the:
- Illegal occupation of 37% of Cyprus which caused 200.000 refugees and 1500 missing
persons.
- The Human Rights violations in Turkey.
- The disapearances of civilians and opposition members.
- The state control of the media and the press.
- The death squads.
- The war against the Kurds.
- The illegal arrests and executions
- The war threats against Greece
I believe you have to scream
ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!! ..... not to me
but to the corrupt and military controled Turkish state.
Petros Liapis
Elifina
: You mean you don't see anything wrong in Turkey ??!!
: What about the:
: - Illegal occupation of 37% of Cyprus which caused 200.000 refugees and 1500 missing
: persons.
: - The Human Rights violations in Turkey.
: - The disapearances of civilians and opposition members.
: - The state control of the media and the press.
: - The death squads.
: - The war against the Kurds.
: - The illegal arrests and executions
: - The war threats against Greece
: I believe you have to scream
: ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!! ..... not to me
: but to the corrupt and military controled Turkish state.
: Petros Liapis
Why do you care? CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER ME WHY YOU CARE ABOUT US THAT
MUCH? If you hate Turks that's fine hate us but you gain nothing by
repeating all these one hundred times!
I hope it very much that when I am in Greece this summer I won't have
the first Greek coming to me and start telling me all these things
because I am Turkish.
Get a life Petros!
Elif Akcetin
http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Elifina
Nobody asked your point of view you racist. So are you happy that you
killed all the "Turks" in Bosna?
--
Elif Akcetin
http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Elifina
: I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
: Asian place, has shown its irredentist goals quite clearly, and is trying
: to restore some form of their fallen Islamic Empire which made the
: Balkans backward compare to the rest of Europe. So, the conclusion is
: that they should stay away -- in the Bosnian case they didn't, in the
: Cyprus case they didn't, and I think the "next" should be given a clear
: military reply.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha do you know what would have happened
to your serbian army who has been exterminating muslims in Bosna if
Turkey sent an army there against you? I am sure you know the answer mr.
serb
Elif Akcetin
http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Boris Bjelica
On 24 Apr 1996, Elifina wrote:
> Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
>
> Nobody asked your point of view you racist. So are you happy that you
> killed all the "Turks" in Bosna?
Excuse me, but this is a newsgroup. If you wabt to have a private
discussion with the eprosn you started it with, then go ahead. Otherwise,
freedom of speech enables me to respond to what I want.
Hmm, I didn't really respond to you, because I'm highly intersted in
European matters, not Asian.
Regarding "Turks" in Bosnia, they were kicked out as brutally as they
deserved some time last century. Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgars delivered
them back to Asia in 1912. I'm sorry that your empire is dead meat, but
you know, we appreciate those beautiful centuries of Turkish yoke which
made the Balkans awkward, and now just stay where you are, enjoy Asian
sun.
As far as Muslim Slavs are concerned, they are of the same origin as the
Serbs, white Caucasian people -- it was Turks who introduced the hatred
and divisions in Bosnia to keep the region "balanced" during their rule;
such a "balance" was necessary in a border-land. Because of the Turks,
one Slavic people split, and not only that. What has happened ever since
the Ottoman aggression is that Muslims and Christians were killing each
other. This war is just a continuation of what has been going on (with a
great political assisatnce of Turkey which dreams of its return, thus
pushed Bosnia's Muslims into defeat).
That's what Turkish irredentists are -- they have their "own" history.
That's why 1 million Serbian refugees and 70,000 killed in Bosnia by
Ilsmaic fighters is a "good deed". Well, I've seen in it in Armenia,
Cyprus, Balkans have seen it for a while.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boris Bjelica bje...@ece.orst.edu
Electrical & Computer Engineering bjel...@flop.engr.orst.edu
Oregon State University http://www.ece.orst.edu/~bjelica
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
Boris Bjelica
On 24 Apr 1996, Elifina wrote:
> Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
>
>
>
> : I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
> : Asian place, has shown its irredentist goals quite clearly, and is trying
> : to restore some form of their fallen Islamic Empire which made the
> : Balkans backward compare to the rest of Europe. So, the conclusion is
> : that they should stay away -- in the Bosnian case they didn't, in the
> : Cyprus case they didn't, and I think the "next" should be given a clear
> : military reply.
>
> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha do you know what would have happened
Such an intelectual response...
> to your serbian army who has been exterminating muslims in Bosna if
> Turkey sent an army there against you? I am sure you know the answer mr.
> serb
Well, for one point, "Serbian" Army was a local Bosnian Serb militia.
"Serbian" Army, in teh case of Islamic attack from Asia, would not only be
Bosnian Serb commandos, but the Army of Serbia, Russia, Greece... I mean,
Asians were sent back to Asia in 1912, and will not return. Don't even
think what would happen to Turks if they step in on the Balkans,
especially Serbia. Nothing brings Serbs together like Turks; that is
pathetic, but it is the way it is. Even though Asian aggressors were sent
back to Asia, and from Serbia 100 years ago, memories of Turkish sabers
and rape are still vivid. Stay away and pay tolls on the highways in
Serbia on your way to Germany. And of course, dream on. Europe is for
Europeans, but if you think you should come, you first have to ask Greeks
for an approval.
>
> Elif Akcetin
> http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Boris Bjelica
On 25 Apr 1996, Elifina wrote:
> Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
>
>
> : >
> : > The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
> : > freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
>
> : This is absolutely true. Greeks have started the process in which Asians
> : were delivered to where they belong - Asia. No offense to Asia nor their
> : dominant cultures, but the bad thing is that Balkan Christians didn't send
> : intruders and aggressors back where they belong.
>
>
> Let me correct one thing. You say "Balkan Christians didn't send
> intruders and aggressors back where they belong". This is exactly what
> the Serbian army tried to do. Thinking that the Bosnian Muslims are
> originally Turkish, they exterminated them to revenge themselves. I am
No lady, half of my family is MUSLIM. And we are now split along the
lines drawn by Turks and our churches. The fact is that many Serbs have
done what they have done to the muslims because they relate them to Turks.
That is the whole point. I can not believe that Turks dare to even say a
word about the Balkans after all the throats their ancestors cut. You
just don't understand that those memories are vivid. Once you come to
Serbia and visit mass graves of Turkish massacres, once you pray there,
then we can discuss Serbian attrocities. That's the way to go.
I can take crap (as montenegrin) from anyone reagrding what Serbs did to
their ethnic brethren in Bosnia, but not from TURKS. That is as if
Germans give lectures to Jews on the Middle East policy. It just doesn't
work.
Have you ever asked yourself why are Turks not welcome in the balkans?
Every why has its "because". Also, every stick has two ends, and whatever
you say about the Serbs, I will give you twice as many arguments about
Turks or the crimes of Muslims in Bosnia.
BTW, Muslims are not "exterminated". They are not present in Drina valley
anymore due to the Serbian ethnic cleansing. Serbs are not present in
Western Bosnia and Krajina where they made up more than 90% of the
population -- 40,000 were killed just last summer (very few soldires).
How come you never mention that?
> very sorry for all the Serbs because they are all brainwashed. I can't
> imagine a person having a life this way hating other people because of
> their nationality.
I don't need anyone from teh Turkish nation to feel sorry for me. I don't
feel sorry for the Turks at all. They are a big nation, but some elements
in it do not understand that they are just not welcome to nose in others'
business. I don't give a damn if you feel sorry for the Serbs because you
jump into your own mouth by your phrasing. Have you ever seen me starting
the discussion on Turks? Have I posted my "hatred" to a Turkish group? I
just don't care about the Turks. But, these "great people" do nose in and
spit on the Serbian nation. How sarcastic -- for 400 years they were
tormenting them, and now want to give them a "lecture" on civilization.
Serbs do have a lot to think about as a nation, but Turks still have much
more. There is a lot they need to ask yourself, because never in
history have they committed an aggression and genocide. You can fool
yourself, but the crimes of Armenia, Cyprus, daily
masscres of Kurds, and most of all the "legacy" left in the Balkans should
really teach you a lesson.
>
> > Furthermore, YES I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE A GRECO-TURKISH WAR soon. The
> : > occupation of Cyprus and the war threats against Greece can not be continued for
> : > long. And it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the West and Russia will side with
> : > Greece !!!.
>
> : I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
> : Asian place, has shown its irredentist goals quite clearly, and is trying
> : to restore some form of their fallen Islamic Empire which made the
> : Balkans backward compare to the rest of Europe. So, the conclusion is
> : that they should stay away -- in the Bosnian case they didn't, in the
> : Cyprus case they didn't, and I think the "next" should be given a clear
> : military reply.
>
>
> What do you mean by military reply? you mean go there and exterminate
> all The Turks? come on don't be a hypocrit and tell what you really
> think.
Well, you're not my legal representative to say what I think. I simply
said that if Turkey wants to meddle into European business (Balkan
business), we have to defend ourselves. I don't care about Turkey,
it's far away, I don't care what's going on with Kurds... This one-sided
view of many Turks is quite incredible after their "legacy" left in the
Balkans -- families dividied, nations divided, hatreds left. One people,
Muslims and Serbs, killing themselves in all the wars of this century;
just stay away.
> Turkey doesn't want to restore any islamic empire! And I am once again
> sorry for you. It is very easy to put your own fault to someone else.
My fault? Look who's generalizing. I got my ribs broken because I
protested the siege of Sarajevo, and tried pull my family (muslim
Bjelicas) out of there. Turkey is not "restoring" empire, but is playing
dirty games of culturally taking over lands from Kazakhstan to Bosnia and
Hercegovina. Well, someone doesn't like that. If Greeks tried to restore
their cultural lands, you'd have to retreat from many placesin Asia Minor.
That's a silly argument, but it's at the level Turkish establishment
stands.
> You have been independent since I assume after the fall of the Ottoman
> Empire, what were you doing since then? is it the Ottoman Empire's fault
> if you couldn't get developped for all those years! look at Japan! how
> it developped in 40 years!`
Hmm... interesting. Serbian standard was in 1991 higher than Turkish.
All of Yugoslavia was at the doorstep of the EU; GNP/capita was around
$8,000. If you've been to, say, Belgrade, you'd see the West.
Underdeveloped areas of Serbia are (unfortunately) Kosovo-Methokhia
(Albanian dominated) and Old Ras (Sanjak).
Once Milosevic is removed, Serbia will quickly restore and catch up. It's
been quite a rich place, but hey, if it makes you to believe otherwise, I
really dont' care.
> You all live a poor life, giving excuses accusing other people. Isn't
> this the real reason why you also exterminated the poor Muslims in
> Bosna?
Bosnia was twice poorer than Serbia. Now it's ten times poorer. Read a
little more. The war in Bosnia was waged by Bosnians -- Serbs, Muslims,
and Croats. Serbia and Croatia were involved politically, just like
Turkey was. And as far as "extermination" is concerned, get real -- Serbs
have suffered as much... Oh, I forgot, they're brainwashed imbeciles, so
let them be killed; that's an old recipe from 200 years ago.
> It really annoys me a lot to see all those brainwashed unworthy people.
Use arguments, not demagogy.
> They are so much brainwashed that without knowing the person itself they
> are able to criticize him becaus4e of his nationality. I wouldn't want
> to have such a life.
I fully agree with you. So, when are you gonna check your head? For a
year now, you have bitched and spit at Serbs just randomly, given them
numerous "lectures" with bathroom vocabulary. Looks like you love to
write about yourself. You see, i do not have that problem. I just don't
like when foreigners stick their nose into teh Balkans, because they cause
all the trouble. When 700,000 Serbs were killed in WW2 by Croats and
Muslims (most of them decapitated), then Turks didn't react -- that was
"normal", right? In 1991 very same ideology prevailed by Muslims and
Croats, so what were Serbs supposed to do -- wait to get cut. Every
opportunity Muslim extremist had in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they
torched Serbian places. 20 Serbian towns are burnts to the grounds...
My rhetorics is purely defensive. I'm quite critical of my nation's
deeds, but will definitely not discuss with ones who are not worth the
discussion. when I feel attacked, I will defend myslef; I definitely will
not take crap from someone who doesn't look into his own trash first.
PS I never thought that Milan Nikolic was a stupid man, but quite brave.
He was a guy who chased assassins on the Turkish ambassador in Belgrade
Gallip Balkar in 1983. Around 100 other people ran after murderers to
nail them down. Nikolic and one other, just pedestrians who chased them
were killed; so was Balkar. But that's not worth mentioning ever; they
were brain-washed, I guess. They were brainwashed to chase three Armenian
murderers... according to you.
Elifina
: >
: > The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
: > freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
: This is absolutely true. Greeks have started the process in which Asians
: were delivered to where they belong - Asia. No offense to Asia nor their
: dominant cultures, but the bad thing is that Balkan Christians didn't send
: intruders and aggressors back where they belong.
Let me correct one thing. You say "Balkan Christians didn't send
intruders and aggressors back where they belong". This is exactly what
the Serbian army tried to do. Thinking that the Bosnian Muslims are
originally Turkish, they exterminated them to revenge themselves. I am
very sorry for all the Serbs because they are all brainwashed. I can't
imagine a person having a life this way hating other people because of
their nationality.
> Furthermore, YES I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE A GRECO-TURKISH WAR soon. The
: > occupation of Cyprus and the war threats against Greece can not be continued for
: > long. And it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the West and Russia will side with
: > Greece !!!.
: I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
: Asian place, has shown its irredentist goals quite clearly, and is trying
: to restore some form of their fallen Islamic Empire which made the
: Balkans backward compare to the rest of Europe. So, the conclusion is
: that they should stay away -- in the Bosnian case they didn't, in the
: Cyprus case they didn't, and I think the "next" should be given a clear
: military reply.
What do you mean by military reply? you mean go there and exterminate
all The Turks? come on don't be a hypocrit and tell what you really
think.
Turkey doesn't want to restore any islamic empire! And I am once again
sorry for you. It is very easy to put your own fault to someone else.
You have been independent since I assume after the fall of the Ottoman
Empire, what were you doing since then? is it the Ottoman Empire's fault
if you couldn't get developped for all those years! look at Japan! how
it developped in 40 years!`
You all live a poor life, giving excuses accusing other people. Isn't
this the real reason why you also exterminated the poor Muslims in
Bosna?
It really annoys me a lot to see all those brainwashed unworthy people.
They are so much brainwashed that without knowing the person itself they
are able to criticize him becaus4e of his nationality. I wouldn't want
to have such a life.
Elif Akcetin
http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Elifina
: > : >
: > : > The Greek revolution of 1821 made clear to other nations under the Ottoman yok that
: > : > freedom can be won .... that was the end for the Ottoman Empire.
: >
: > : This is absolutely true. Greeks have started the process in which Asians
: > : were delivered to where they belong - Asia. No offense to Asia nor their
: > : dominant cultures, but the bad thing is that Balkan Christians didn't send
: > : intruders and aggressors back where they belong.
: >
: >
: > Let me correct one thing. You say "Balkan Christians didn't send
: > intruders and aggressors back where they belong". This is exactly what
: > the Serbian army tried to do. Thinking that the Bosnian Muslims are
: > originally Turkish, they exterminated them to revenge themselves. I am
: No lady, half of my family is MUSLIM. And we are now split along the
: lines drawn by Turks and our churches. The fact is that many Serbs have
: done what they have done to the muslims because they relate them to Turks.
: That is the whole point. I can not believe that Turks dare to even say a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I guess you have problems to understand. That's what I meant. I said
that the reason why Serbs kill muslims in Bosna is because they relate
them to Turks, which is totally stupid!
: word about the Balkans after all the throats their ancestors cut. You
: just don't understand that those memories are vivid. Once you come to
: Serbia and visit mass graves of Turkish massacres, once you pray there,
: then we can discuss Serbian attrocities. That's the way to go.
Look, the way you learn history is so much biased. The Ottoman Empire
had a rise and a fall. The way you learn history is : for 500 years
Turks have continuously killed people. This is not true. At the
beginning it was okey, it is only after the 18th century that they
started to make people muslims by force. And this is, in my opinion
horrible. They used to take christian children from their families and
raise them as muslims.
: I can take crap (as montenegrin) from anyone reagrding what Serbs did to
: their ethnic brethren in Bosnia, but not from TURKS. That is as if
: Germans give lectures to Jews on the Middle East policy. It just doesn't
: work.
: Have you ever asked yourself why are Turks not welcome in the balkans?
: Every why has its "because". Also, every stick has two ends, and whatever
: you say about the Serbs, I will give you twice as many arguments about
: Turks or the crimes of Muslims in Bosnia.
: BTW, Muslims are not "exterminated". They are not present in Drina valley
: anymore due to the Serbian ethnic cleansing. Serbs are not present in
: Western Bosnia and Krajina where they made up more than 90% of the
: population -- 40,000 were killed just last summer (very few soldires).
: How come you never mention that?
: > very sorry for all the Serbs because they are all brainwashed. I can't
: > imagine a person having a life this way hating other people because of
: > their nationality.
: I don't need anyone from teh Turkish nation to feel sorry for me. I don't
: feel sorry for the Turks at all. They are a big nation, but some elements
: in it do not understand that they are just not welcome to nose in others'
: business. I don't give a damn if you feel sorry for the Serbs because you
: jump into your own mouth by your phrasing. Have you ever seen me starting
: the discussion on Turks? Have I posted my "hatred" to a Turkish group? I
:
of course you won't post your hatred because you are an hypocrit. You
are the kind of person that would hate any Turk because of the past.
By the fact that you say "Asiand should be sent back to Asia" , you
exactly show your hatred. And this is very interesting because this is
the same reasoning neo nazis in France and Germany have: "Algerians,
Tunisians, Arabs should all go back"
just don't care about the Turks. But, these "great people" do nose in and
: spit on the Serbian nation. How sarcastic -- for 400 years they were
: tormenting them, and now want to give them a "lecture" on civilization.
Serbs do have a lot to think about as a nation, but Turks still have much
: more. There is a lot they need to ask yourself, because never in
: history have they committed an aggression and genocide. You can fool
You mean Serbs never committed aggression and genocide?
30,000 women raped during the war in Bosna and the saddest part is that
Serbian women are included.
: yourself, but the crimes of Armenia, Cyprus, daily
: masscres of Kurds, and most of all the "legacy" left in the Balkans should
: really teach you a lesson.
Look, you are misinformed about the Kurds, actually everyone is. You
have to read newspapers, books in order to see the truth, it's easy to
say that from what you hear from other people.
: >
: > : I hope there will not be another war, but one country, this very same
no you don't understand, what I meant was that Serbs had enough time to
increase their economic situation because you said that the reason why
Serbia was behind Europe economically is because of the Ottoman Empire.
Obviously you have deleted that part where you said that and start
comparing Turkey and Serbia.
: Once Milosevic is removed, Serbia will quickly restore and catch up. It's
: been quite a rich place, but hey, if it makes you to believe otherwise, I
: really dont' care.
Are you drunk? I never said thayt Serbia can't restore! you said that!
: > You all live a poor life, giving excuses accusing other people. Isn't
: > this the real reason why you also exterminated the poor Muslims in
: > Bosna?
: Bosnia was twice poorer than Serbia. Now it's ten times poorer. Read a
: little more. The war in Bosnia was waged by Bosnians -- Serbs, Muslims,
: and Croats. Serbia and Croatia were involved politically, just like
: Turkey was. And as far as "extermination" is concerned, get real -- Serbs
: have suffered as much... Oh, I forgot, they're brainwashed imbeciles, so
: let them be killed; that's an old recipe from 200 years ago.
no! I have read that during the war Serbian women were raped also and by
the Serbian soldiers themselves!
Look I have nothing against Serbs even though the reason why my
grandparents had to migrate from former Yugoslavia to Istanbul was because
of Serbs. I could as well hate Serbs because of that but I don't. But
what bothers me really is the attitude of Serbs against Turks today.
There is this woman here, she is Serbian, a friend of mine told me that
when she was talking about me , her reaction was "oh she is Turkish? she
must be bad, Turks are bad!". She doesn't even know me!
This is what I don't like and that's why I
called you brainwashed. I know I shouldn't generalize so I apologize for
that.
: > It really annoys me a lot to see all those brainwashed unworthy people.
: Use arguments, not demagogy.
: > They are so much brainwashed that without knowing the person itself they
: > are able to criticize him becaus4e of his nationality. I wouldn't want
: > to have such a life.
: I fully agree with you. So, when are you gonna check your head? For a
: year now, you have bitched and spit at Serbs just randomly, given them
: numerous "lectures" with bathroom vocabulary. Looks like you love to
: write about yourself. You see, i do not have that problem. I just don't
: like when foreigners stick their nose into teh Balkans, because they cause
: all the trouble. When 700,000 Serbs were killed in WW2 by Croats and
: Muslims (most of them decapitated), then Turks didn't react -- that was
: "normal", right? In 1991 very same ideology prevailed by Muslims and
: Croats, so what were Serbs supposed to do -- wait to get cut. Every
: opportunity Muslim extremist had in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they
: torched Serbian places. 20 Serbian towns are burnts to the grounds...
I am sorry.
: My rhetorics is purely defensive. I'm quite critical of my nation's
: deeds, but will definitely not discuss with ones who are not worth the
: discussion. when I feel attacked, I will defend myslef; I definitely will
: not take crap from someone who doesn't look into his own trash first.
: PS I never thought that Milan Nikolic was a stupid man, but quite brave.
: He was a guy who chased assassins on the Turkish ambassador in Belgrade
: Gallip Balkar in 1983. Around 100 other people ran after murderers to
: nail them down. Nikolic and one other, just pedestrians who chased them
: were killed; so was Balkar. But that's not worth mentioning ever; they
: were brain-washed, I guess. They were brainwashed to chase three Armenian
: murderers... according to you.
Elifina
Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
: On 24 Apr 1996, Elifina wrote:
: > Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
: >
: > Nobody asked your point of view you racist. So are you happy that you
: > killed all the "Turks" in Bosna?
: Excuse me, but this is a newsgroup. If you wabt to have a private
: discussion with the eprosn you started it with, then go ahead. Otherwise,
: freedom of speech enables me to respond to what I want.
bla bla bla
: Hmm, I didn't really respond to you, because I'm highly intersted in
: European matters, not Asian.
but you should, especially the Chinese culture is so cool. Oh yes let's
not forget the Mongolian culture too. I am a Mongolina, let's not forget
that.
: Regarding "Turks" in Bosnia, they were kicked out as brutally as they
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: deserved some time last century. Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgars delivered
This is the "you did this to my people, now I am doing the same to your
people" kind of thought. My grandparents for example were decent
Albanians born in Bitola, grew up there, never killed anybody. But they
were kicked out by Serbs.
: them back to Asia in 1912. I'm sorry that your empire is dead meat, but
well I don't think any Turk today is sorry because of the end of the
Ottoman Empire. i don't think anybody would want to live in such an
empire.
: you know, we appreciate those beautiful centuries of Turkish yoke which
: made the Balkans awkward, and now just stay where you are, enjoy Asian
: sun.
ha?
: As far as Muslim Slavs are concerned, they are of the same origin as the
: Serbs, white Caucasian people -- it was Turks who introduced the hatred
: and divisions in Bosnia to keep the region "balanced" during their rule;
: such a "balance" was necessary in a border-land. Because of the Turks,
: one Slavic people split, and not only that. What has happened ever since
: the Ottoman aggression is that Muslims and Christians were killing each
: other. This war is just a continuation of what has been going on (with a
: great political assisatnce of Turkey which dreams of its return, thus
: pushed Bosnia's Muslims into defeat).
interesting.... very interesting theory of yours! so the reason of
today's war is rooted in the Ottoman's policies?????!!! ooooo so
actually those poor fighters in Bosna who raped and killed so many
people are innocent, actually it's the Ottomans who put these ideas in
their head? hmmm it seems that mr. bjelik hasn'r read Sartre: everyone
is responsible of himself.
ah those Ottomans! they were soooooooo baaaaaaad!
: That's what Turkish irredentists are -- they have their "own" history.
: That's why 1 million Serbian refugees and 70,000 killed in Bosnia by
: Ilsmaic fighters is a "good deed". Well, I've seen in it in Armenia,
: Cyprus, Balkans have seen it for a while.
oo you've been to Armenia? cool! well next time you go to Asia, visit us
too!
Boris Bjelica
On 26 Apr 1996, Elifina wrote:
> Boris Bjelica (bje...@ece.orst.edu) wrote:
>
> : > Let me correct one thing. You say "Balkan Christians didn't send
> : > intruders and aggressors back where they belong". This is exactly what
> : > the Serbian army tried to do. Thinking that the Bosnian Muslims are
> : > originally Turkish, they exterminated them to revenge themselves. I am
>
> : No lady, half of my family is MUSLIM. And we are now split along the
> : lines drawn by Turks and our churches. The fact is that many Serbs have
> : done what they have done to the muslims because they relate them to Turks.
> : That is the whole point. I can not believe that Turks dare to even say a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I guess you have problems to understand. That's what I meant. I said
> that the reason why Serbs kill muslims in Bosna is because they relate
> them to Turks, which is totally stupid!
Yes it is totally stupid. I will not go into Serbian pathology which was
deadly wrong, and their ideology towards their ethnic brethren who they
"discarded" as "converts". That took place in the 19th century (I wrote
about it on s.c.yugo). As a Serb, I find Serbian nationalism to casue the
divisions with the muslims. Again, that is all due to the lack of
tolerance. their action could be justified because remaining Christian in
Ottoman Empire meant paying higher taxes, meant your kids become
jannissaries, meant your young brides gotta undergo "first-night-sleep"
with Turkish spahias, etc. I am sorry they had no power to overcome that
gap. That attitude caused extreme Muslim attitudes as well which led to
enormous crimes against the Serbs in WW2 (especially in Bosnia, not
Herzegovina). Once Turkish gov't meddled in 1991, that triggered
additional opposition.
Other then that, Muslims of bosnia are related to Turks in sense they
converted during Turkish occupation,a nd their political leadership took
clear orders from Turkey -- Bosnian Serbs saw that as a sort of Turkish
invasion; you can argue that, but I understand them entirely. Turkey
should've stayed away and approached the problem even-handedly. Muslims
are no angles either.
> : word about the Balkans after all the throats their ancestors cut. You
> : just don't understand that those memories are vivid. Once you come to
> : Serbia and visit mass graves of Turkish massacres, once you pray there,
> : then we can discuss Serbian attrocities. That's the way to go.
>
> Look, the way you learn history is so much biased. The Ottoman Empire
> had a rise and a fall. The way you learn history is : for 500 years
> Turks have continuously killed people. This is not true. At the
I simplify things to tell you to stay away. That's all. I know Ottoman
history much better than you think. Serbian language was one of the three
official languages in Stambol (as we called it), Serbs were given almost
equal rights until the times Austria started using them for their own
interests. One Serb (Sokolvic) became a Grand Vezire while his
brother was a patriarch; many similar cases. Serbs rebelled and were
bloodily punished by the expulsion from their heartland Kosovo and
Methokhia where nomad pagan-turned-Muslim Albanians were brought to the
region. Late 17th century was the turn-point, and that was a hell for
Christians. All the parctices that were already present (harac,
janissaries, "first-night-bride",e tc) were intensified and Serbian nation
crippled both physically and demographically. At teh same time, as
Austria was getting stronger, more conversions took place (my family then
split in Herzegovina), more repreucussions against Christian Serbs. One
vivid example is Cele-Kula (Cele-Tower) in the city of Nish where 700
Serbian skulls (700 Serbian heads cut off in one day) were cemented into a
wall to scare the civilians off. Such monuments are present in almost
every place in Serbia and bosnia. That's why,a s much as Turkish
influence had its positive sides, Turkey must stay away. Just accept
that.
Check out http://www.ece.orst.edu/~bjelica/corba/7.html
to see what the thing kinda looked like (this is an r'n'r cover, but the
whole wall is like that, and the picture is original accept for the
"appendix").
If you rtheory on Serbs works, then how come there are 150,000 Muslims in
Belgrade, how come four prominent down-town areas of Belgrade still keep
Turkish names and partially teh architecture (Kalemegdan, Tasmajdan,
Dorcol (dort-yol), Karaburma); many streets, blocks as well...
> beginning it was okey, it is only after the 18th century that they
> started to make people muslims by force. And this is, in my opinion
> horrible. They used to take christian children from their families and
> raise them as muslims.
That was happening from the beginning, but on the smaller scale.
> : I can take crap (as montenegrin) from anyone reagrding what Serbs did to
> : their ethnic brethren in Bosnia, but not from TURKS. That is as if
> : Germans give lectures to Jews on the Middle East policy. It just doesn't
> : work.
>
> : Have you ever asked yourself why are Turks not welcome in the balkans?
> : Every why has its "because". Also, every stick has two ends, and whatever
> : you say about the Serbs, I will give you twice as many arguments about
> : Turks or the crimes of Muslims in Bosnia.
>
> : BTW, Muslims are not "exterminated". They are not present in Drina valley
> : anymore due to the Serbian ethnic cleansing. Serbs are not present in
> : Western Bosnia and Krajina where they made up more than 90% of the
> : population -- 40,000 were killed just last summer (very few soldires).
> : How come you never mention that?
>
> : > very sorry for all the Serbs because they are all brainwashed. I can't
> : > imagine a person having a life this way hating other people because of
> : > their nationality.
>
> : I don't need anyone from teh Turkish nation to feel sorry for me. I don't
> : feel sorry for the Turks at all. They are a big nation, but some elements
> : in it do not understand that they are just not welcome to nose in others'
> : business. I don't give a damn if you feel sorry for the Serbs because you
> : jump into your own mouth by your phrasing. Have you ever seen me starting
> : the discussion on Turks? Have I posted my "hatred" to a Turkish group? I
> :
>
> of course you won't post your hatred because you are an hypocrit. You
> are the kind of person that would hate any Turk because of the past.
Not at all. Santayana has said "Forgive, but don't forget". I could say
I actually admired Turkey and Turks, many similarities are still very
vivid (as much as Serbs deny them), not to mention Eurovision 12-points
each year (ha ha)... but when it comes to politics and meddling, it does
infuriate me. It is not us who they teach bad, but you. You gotta
understand that Serbian nation survived on being very Christian and very
anti-muslim because of the history. Turkey could've helped prevent the
war by not siding in an ethnic conflict... Why the hell Turkey didn't
support the peace-plan of 1991, 1992, and two of 1993? They all prevented
the war; instead, Serbs were pointed the finger at, and Muslims glorified
-- well, no wonder why Bosnian Serbs burst. I burst; they do not have the
right to do that -- Turkish gov't directly supported the war, and its goal
was a muslim Bosnia just like Milosevic's was a "serbian" bosnia.
> By the fact that you say "Asiand should be sent back to Asia" , you
> exactly show your hatred. And this is very interesting because this is
> the same reasoning neo nazis in France and Germany have: "Algerians,
> Tunisians, Arabs should all go back"
Weak argument. I say that because I'm pissed at turkish involvement,
nothing more. Turkey should really mind its own business.
> just don't care about the Turks. But, these "great people" do nose in and
> : spit on the Serbian nation. How sarcastic -- for 400 years they were
> : tormenting them, and now want to give them a "lecture" on civilization.
>
>
> Serbs do have a lot to think about as a nation, but Turks still have much
> : more. There is a lot they need to ask yourself, because never in
> : history have they committed an aggression and genocide. You can fool
>
> You mean Serbs never committed aggression and genocide?
> 30,000 women raped during the war in Bosna and the saddest part is that
> Serbian women are included.
I meant prior to 1991. "30,000" raped women is a very silly argument. No
one denies Serbian crimes, but the rape thing is silly (I explained it
already).
> : yourself, but the crimes of Armenia, Cyprus, daily
> : masscres of Kurds, and most of all the "legacy" left in the Balkans should
> : really teach you a lesson.
>
> Look, you are misinformed about the Kurds, actually everyone is. You
> have to read newspapers, books in order to see the truth, it's easy to
> say that from what you hear from other people.
EXACTLY!!! I don't care about the kurds at all, I know they're very
extreme. I know that the thing with Armenia has the other side to it as
well. We come to the point when you should ask yourself the same question
-- read newspapers, books in order to see the truth, see that the horror
of the Balkan is stirred by foreigners, and that
most of the people are disgusted how "worried" foreigners from 1000 miles
away "worry' for us while we cut each other's throats. I don't know
whether to laugh or cry at Turkish theories of "Bosna" -- bogumils,
descendants of Illyrians, always different from teh Serbs, different
history, etc... what a fraud. Bogumils, Orthodox, Catholic of the balkans
were the same people with same history and culture (later on Muslim as
well).
You read between the lines (or I wasn't specific enough). Serbia
economically has gained strength, became one of the three "powerful" in
Yugoslavia... that's not the problem. the problem is the historical
heritage of divisions and mentality. I said that we did not undergo (I
refer to all of the Balkans) the phases of history western Europe did
where people were taught more tolerance and where "balkanization" concept
was annihilated over time; it's just my personal feeling which many share.
One of the lies imported from turkey and other 'worried" is that Serbia
was poor (Vojvodina region was the richest in the former YU), another is
that YU was dominated by the Serbs (false; even though Milsoevic wanted
so), that Serbs imposed Cyrillic alphabet on others (silly because Serbian
is written in both, while Croatian dielact only in Latinic)... and many
other examples. The silliest one is that Muslims of BH are blonde,
blue-eyed descendants of Bogumils while Bosnian Serbs are actually not
Slavs, but dark-haired Vlachs. Pathetic... Serbian theories are pathetic
as well, but they are no worse than others.
> : Once Milosevic is removed, Serbia will quickly restore and catch up. It's
> : been quite a rich place, but hey, if it makes you to believe otherwise, I
> : really dont' care.
>
> Are you drunk? I never said thayt Serbia can't restore! you said that!
Well, I am pissed at Milosevic, I left Belgrade because I didn't wanna
take part in killing my own people for their asses.
> : > You all live a poor life, giving excuses accusing other people. Isn't
> : > this the real reason why you also exterminated the poor Muslims in
> : > Bosna?
>
> : Bosnia was twice poorer than Serbia. Now it's ten times poorer. Read a
> : little more. The war in Bosnia was waged by Bosnians -- Serbs, Muslims,
> : and Croats. Serbia and Croatia were involved politically, just like
> : Turkey was. And as far as "extermination" is concerned, get real -- Serbs
> : have suffered as much... Oh, I forgot, they're brainwashed imbeciles, so
> : let them be killed; that's an old recipe from 200 years ago.
>
> no! I have read that during the war Serbian women were raped also and by
> the Serbian soldiers themselves!
Well, just keep reading and might bump into the data on Zenica, Tuzla and
Sarajevo jails, 280 Serbian villages torched in Drina valley as well, and
numerous women raped.
> Look I have nothing against Serbs even though the reason why my
> grandparents had to migrate from former Yugoslavia to Istanbul was because
> of Serbs. I could as well hate Serbs because of that but I don't. But
> what bothers me really is the attitude of Serbs against Turks today.
Huh, that's kinda hypocrytical. First, "Bitola",as I mentioned is not
Serbian even though the town was at the time considered to be in "Southern
Serbia" -- expulsions were carried out by locals (all over the region;
check it for yourself).
Second, Serbian "attitude" in general was formed last four years, and I
share it as well. It's a defensive attitude -- as I said, Serbs don't
mess into turkish business in their country nor have they ever went to
turkey and killed people (and did all that "neat" stuff) -- it is
vice-versa. Again, the "attitude" you refer to is the attitude of some
bosnian Serbs who do call muslims "Turks". Bosnian Serbs call Muslims
"balije" (very racist slang for muslims with reference to turks), and
Muslims call Serbs "vlaji" (Vlachs) with a slogan when a Christian is
killed "aferim, sincino" (aferim, my big son)...
> There is this woman here, she is Serbian, a friend of mine told me that
> when she was talking about me , her reaction was "oh she is Turkish? she
> must be bad, Turks are bad!". She doesn't even know me!
Yup. That's sad. But that was your attitude when posting your stuff on
the serbian group. That was to turn normal people's stomachs upside-down,
not Bosnian Serbs who are refugees, whose homes are destroyed and families
killed. They are full of hatred, but that's the whole problem with the
Balkans -- we need someone to heal the hatred, not to foster it.
> This is what I don't like and that's why I
> called you brainwashed. I know I shouldn't generalize so I apologize for
> that.
Cool.
> : > It really annoys me a lot to see all those brainwashed unworthy people.
>
> : Use arguments, not demagogy.
>
> : > They are so much brainwashed that without knowing the person itself they
> : > are able to criticize him becaus4e of his nationality. I wouldn't want
> : > to have such a life.
>
> : I fully agree with you. So, when are you gonna check your head? For a
> : year now, you have bitched and spit at Serbs just randomly, given them
> : numerous "lectures" with bathroom vocabulary. Looks like you love to
> : write about yourself. You see, i do not have that problem. I just don't
> : like when foreigners stick their nose into teh Balkans, because they cause
> : all the trouble. When 700,000 Serbs were killed in WW2 by Croats and
> : Muslims (most of them decapitated), then Turks didn't react -- that was
> : "normal", right? In 1991 very same ideology prevailed by Muslims and
> : Croats, so what were Serbs supposed to do -- wait to get cut. Every
> : opportunity Muslim extremist had in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they
> : torched Serbian places. 20 Serbian towns are burnts to the grounds...
>
> I am sorry.
Well, I am sorry as well. You just gotta understand the arguments of the
serbs. I am the one who thinks that Serbs should keep Srebrenica and show
it to kids in the future "this is what our 2m tall animals did; let it
never happen again". Only way out is the reconciliation. I am a person
in pain because this didn't have to take place at all. Beside local
bandits,
foreign gov'ts were involved big time. Their people didn't die, but ours;
they don't give a damn about us (e.g. Bosnian Muslims or serbs) but about
their interests. Why the hell they didn't call for the conference in
1991, threatened the force, and simply confederalize YU... that was so
easy to do... instead, we got what we got. Big political game was played.
Bosnian Serbs were used to wipe Islam from Europe on one side; US played
its standard dual game of supporting the both where muslims are wiped out,
but at teh same time no support for peace initiatives, and propaganda
against the serbs. Once elections are close, let's kill 100,000 more
people, move them from their homes, and make separate countries.
Who the hell you think allowed Sarajevo to be in Muslim-Croat federation?
I know they cheered in Turkey, but Serbs (200,000) are kicked out...
instead, the only way out for a multi-ethnic Bosnia was killed by teh same
gov'ts. The only way out was Sarajevo of Wash., DC model which would be
gradually applied to heel the wounds. instead, we got two (and in the
future, three) ethnically pure areas. That could not possibly be done
without the foreign meddling. Yugo people lived just fine before the war.
The problem is that it's very easy to defend everyones' arguments because
once the fear is in, arguments are there. The thing that sparkled the
crap in YU is the lack of Nurmberg after WW2 where ones responsible for
the genocide against the Serbs were to be named -- instead, the whole
Croatian nation was named, and partially Muslim. Add to that "other"
reasons, and then natural response and the chain reaction. Boom! -- one
with more power wins and burns everything -- a story too well known to me,
but not to foreigners.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boris Bjelica bje...@ece.orst.edu
Electrical & Computer Engineering bjel...@flop.engr.orst.edu
Oregon State University http://www.ece.orst.edu/~bjelica
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanos
I don't think the Greeks have any special love for the Serbs. Greeks don't really
like anybody, if the truth be told.
They don't actually *hate* the Serbs, though. Serbia is the only neighboring
country against which Greece has never fought a war.
There's love, and there's the lack of hate. It wouldn't take much to get the Serbs
and Greeks at each others' throats.
Joe Blo
Elifina wrote:
>
> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : Is this your TRUE face ELif ??? thanl you for sharing it with us.... Before you
> : explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
> : ... which you deleted ....
>
> :
>
> of course, when it comes to the truth it hurts, and you blame me for
> being nationalist! look at yourself! you are the pathetic nationalist!
> and as long as people like you exist there will definitely be a war
> between Greece and Turkey. For months you haven't stopped talking about
> Turkey, I think you are disturbed, mentally disturbed
> ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!!
> :
Dear Elifina,
Ooh!
I love it when you do that. Please post some more only address it to
alt.sex.erotica.politics.
On a more serious note, I wonder if you can spare one of your orgasmic
protestations for Mr. Murat Kutan, who makes the person you accuse look
like a humble socialist.
Somluk
Petros Liapis
I never sayed that Greeks love Serbia. I believe that Greeks can emotionaly relate to
the war in former Yugoslavia because of Cyprus. The Serbs fought to keep Yugoslavia in
one piece, unlike Greeks who wait for the last 20 years for a "peacefull solution" to
the Cyprus problem.
I believe in the eyes of the Greeks, Serbs fought a war that the Greeks did not fight
... or they are about to fight. Judging from the latest incident in the Aegean a
Greco-Turkish war looks imminent in the near future.
Petros.
Elifina
Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
: Thanos wrote:
: >
: > I don't think the Greeks have any special love for the Serbs. Greeks don't really
: > like anybody, if the truth be told.
: >
: > They don't actually *hate* the Serbs, though. Serbia is the only neighboring
: > country against which Greece has never fought a war.
: >
: > There's love, and there's the lack of hate. It wouldn't take much to get the Serbs
: > and Greeks at each others' throats.
: I never sayed that Greeks love Serbia. I believe that Greeks can emotionaly relate to
: the war in former Yugoslavia because of Cyprus. The Serbs fought to keep Yugoslavia in
: one piece, unlike Greeks who wait for the last 20 years for a "peacefull solution" to
: the Cyprus problem.
: I believe in the eyes of the Greeks, Serbs fought a war that the Greeks did not fight
: ... or they are about to fight. Judging from the latest incident in the Aegean a
: Greco-Turkish war looks imminent in the near future.
: Petros.
no there won't be a war
ji...@cim.mcgill.ca
In article <318848...@speednet.com.au>,
Joe Blo <ste...@speednet.com.au> wrote:
>Elifina wrote:
>>
>> Petros Liapis (hd...@westminster.ac.uk) wrote:
>>
>> : Is this your TRUE face ELif ??? thanl you for sharing it with us.... Before you
>> : explode in a burst of nationalist feelings you better read the rest of my posting
>> : ... which you deleted ....
>>
>> :
>>
>> of course, when it comes to the truth it hurts, and you blame me for
>> being nationalist! look at yourself! you are the pathetic nationalist!
>> and as long as people like you exist there will definitely be a war
>> between Greece and Turkey. For months you haven't stopped talking about
>> Turkey, I think you are disturbed, mentally disturbed
>> now stop redundancy, stop repeating yourself, enough ENOUGH ENOUGH
>> ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH!!!!!!!! ENOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUGH!!!!!!
>> :
>
>Dear Elifina,
>
>Ooh!
>
>I love it when you do that. Please post some more only address it to
>alt.sex.erotica.politics.
Good one.
>
>On a more serious note, I wonder if you can spare one of your orgasmic
>protestations for Mr. Murat Kutan, who makes the person you accuse look
>like a humble socialist.
Notice how Yalin Ekici and Murat Kutan are never mentioned in any of
their posts. It is like the "majority" of turks live under some kind of
code of silence; they know they did it, but if some turk doesn't
accept the truth they do not object. Deep down inside they hope that
Murat's and Yalin's propaganda will have some type of effect. I think
that turkey could have learned something from the Germans. Accept
your mistakes and the world will accept you in return. The Germans
are leaders of Europe today only because they did not deny their crimes.
Later
Demetrios
>
>Somluk
Vasilios L. Pilarinos
>>> In message (<4mefg4$g...@tom.amherst.edu>),
Elifina (eakc...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote :
[ea> pl> ... or they are about to fight. Judging from the latest
[ea> pl> incident in the Aegean a Greco-Turkish war looks imminent
[ea> pl> in the near future.
[ea>
[ea> no there won't be a war
You mean you will just _give_ us Constantinople? That's why I like
you Elif. ;-) In all seriousness though, if you look at how things are
going now, the two countries are inching towards a military conflict.
Relations between these two countries now are worse than they have been
in a while.
Ho hum.
[ea> Elif Akcetin
[ea> http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
--
Vasilios L. Pilarinos
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"War is an evil thing; but to submit to the dictation of other states is
worse. To you who call yourself men of peace, I say: You are not safe
unless you have men of action on your side." Thucydides (c. 460-400 BCE)
Elifina
Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vqp...@is4.nyu.edu) wrote:
: >>> In message (<4mefg4$g...@tom.amherst.edu>),
: [ea> pl> ... or they are about to fight. Judging from the latest
: [ea> pl> incident in the Aegean a Greco-Turkish war looks imminent
: [ea> pl> in the near future.
: [ea>
: [ea> no there won't be a war
: You mean you will just _give_ us Constantinople? That's why I like
: you Elif. ;-) In all seriousness though, if you look at how things are
If I owned Constantinople, I would have given it to you for the sake of
your beautiful eyes ;-)
: going now, the two countries are inching towards a military conflict.
: Relations between these two countries now are worse than they have been
: in a while.
no no there won't be a war
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: "War is an evil thing; but to submit to the dictation of other states is
: worse. To you who call yourself men of peace, I say: You are not safe
: unless you have men of action on your side." Thucydides (c. 460-400 BCE)
Thucydides is cool! we are reading his book right now :-)
Elif Akcetin
http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
Elifina
: Vasilios L. Pilarinos
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: "War is an evil thing; but to submit to the dictation of other states is
: worse. To you who call yourself men of peace, I say: You are not safe
: unless you have men of action on your side." Thucydides (c. 460-400 BCE)
yes but this has nothing to do with the situation between Greece and
Turkey. Thucydides is talking about Athens here, and men of action like
Alkibiades who insisted on going to Sicily because Athens was thinking
at that time that if she doesn't invade other places, they will end up
be stronger than her.
Erling Saether
In article <4mefg4$g...@tom.amherst.edu>, eakc...@unix.amherst.edu says...>: >: >
>: > and Greeks at each others' throats.
>
cute but to get a serbian girl(my friend) and a greec-guy to
each others' throats,literally spoken.There's love,and there's
abuse.You're desperat all of you!
BLOND GIRL FROM THE NORTH OF EUROPE.
>:
Vasilios L. Pilarinos
>>> In message (<4mgf6q$g...@tom.amherst.edu>),
Elifina (eakc...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote :
[ea> vp> You mean you will just _give_ us Constantinople? That's why
[ea> vp> I like you Elif. ;-) In all seriousness though, if you look at
[ea> vp> how things are
[ea>
[ea> If I owned Constantinople, I would have given it to you for the sake
[ea> of your beautiful eyes ;-)
Like Marv Albert always says "Where did THAT come from?" :-)))
Well, it's ok. I can smart small. I'll take your house. :-) Ahaha.
[ea> vp> going now, the two countries are inching towards a military
[ea> vp> conflict. Relations between these two countries now are worse
[ea> vp> than they have been in a while.
[ea>
[ea> no no there won't be a war
Well, something could be said for wishful thinking. :-)
[ea> vp> Thucydides (c. 460-400 BCE)
[ea>
[ea> Thucydides is cool! we are reading his book right now :-)
He was the "father of history", right? Or something like that?
He was very briefly mentioned in one of my ancient Greece courses.
[ea> Elif Akcetin
[ea> http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
--
__Vasilios_L._Pilarinos_______________________http://www.ml.org/~vpilarin__
"Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master."-Demosthenes
Vasilios L. Pilarinos
>>> In message (<4mgfib$g...@tom.amherst.edu>),
Elifina (eakc...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote :
[ea> yes but this has nothing to do with the situation between Greece and
[ea> Turkey. Thucydides is talking about Athens here, and men of action
[ea> like Alkibiades who insisted on going to Sicily because Athens was
[ea> thinking at that time that if she doesn't invade other places, they
[ea> will end up be stronger than her.
No doubt it wasn't written with Greece/Turkey in mind, but the
point it makes is valid to this day. That is, Greece must not and
can not allow Turkey to bully her on _anything_. That is the same
as being subjugated by Turkey.
I think Pangalos said it best; Greece has two foreign policy
options : Finlandization or Israelization. In other words, allow
itself to be bullied in all international forums (like Finland did
during the Soviet era) or apply equal or more pressure to it's en-
emies like what Israel does.
The status quo simply sucks.
[ea> Elif Akcetin
[ea> http://www.smith.edu/~eakcetin
--
__Vasilios_L._Pilarinos______________________http://www.ml.org/~vpilarin___
Language is the armory of the human mind, and at once contains the trophies
of its past and the weapons of its future conquests. -- Samuel Coleridge
George Soumakis
You are a fucking racist. if you don't like greeks, do not post here. go
back to your sexually free country, where little kids have access to
pornographic material.
george
In article <4miv6g$a...@nms.telepost.no> Erling Saether wrote:
>Date: 5 May 1996 19:22:56 GMT
>From: sat...@telepost.no (Erling Saether)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
>Subject: Re: Greece loves Serbia !?
Petros Liapis
> : I never sayed that Greeks love Serbia. I believe that Greeks can emotionaly relate to
> : the war in former Yugoslavia because of Cyprus. The Serbs fought to keep Yugoslavia in
> : one piece, unlike Greeks who wait for the last 20 years for a "peacefull solution" to
> : the Cyprus problem.
> : I believe in the eyes of the Greeks, Serbs fought a war that the Greeks did not fight
> : ... or they are about to fight. Judging from the latest incident in the Aegean a
> : Greco-Turkish war looks imminent in the near future.
>
> : Petros.
>
> no there won't be a war
>
> --
> Elif Akcetin
One more crisis in the Aegeanand the whole area is gonna go boooooommmmm!!!!!
... this is a fact and I am not looking forward to it.
Yet, Greeks came to believe (after the latest crisis) that Turkish agression should be met with
violence and not with endless negotiations. I hope for a peacefull solution, but I am not in such
a high spirits about the whole matter.
Petros Liapis
GinoGreek
Only one thing to say, people:
ELLADA-SERBIA GAMA TI TOURKIA!!!!!!
Vagelis Tzannatos
Bethesda, MD
Petros Liapis
Filara den sou eipe kanenas oti eimaste ethnos 'anadelfo' ???!!!
Mexri xthes oute pou niazomastan gia tous Servous kai tora giname
"kolitoi" ????
...kai ti kanane gia na mas euxaristisoun ??? Anagnorisane ta Skopia me
to onoma Makedonia !!!!!
Prosexe tous filous sou megale, giati bori na sou vgoun fidia kolova !!!
Petros Liapis
Constantine the Great
Hehehehe Bravo re Petro!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Den sas topa re paidia??? Den sou topa re Vasili Pilarine esu pou eisai
kolo kai brakh me tous servous kai agapas ton Karadzic TOSO POLY!!!!
Akrhbos auto poy leei o Petros. Prin 5 xronia, emeis den eixame TIPOTA
me tous koloserbous kai polloi ellhnes oute hxeran ti sto diabolo ginotan
kei pano.
You're a real dumbass Vasili and I was right from the beginning.
Constantine the Great
GinoGreek
The following message was written by Petros Liapis:
<<
Filara den sou eipe kanenas oti eimaste ethnos 'anadelfo' ???!!!
Mexri xthes oute pou niazomastan gia tous Servous kai tora giname
"kolitoi" ????
...kai ti kanane gia na mas euxaristisoun ??? Anagnorisane ta Skopia me
to onoma Makedonia !!!!!
Prosexe tous filous sou megale, giati bori na sou vgoun fidia kolova !!!
Petros Liapis
>>
I Ellada ke i Servia pada itan koloti fili. Emis imastan i moni pou tous
voithisame ston polemo me lefta, trofes, rouha ke ta lipa. Outosidalos,
mazi polemsame anendian tous tourkous to 1912. Opos dipote hriazomaste
toulahiston ENAN simaho sta Balkania, esto na ine ke travmatias!!!!!
**********************************
Vagelis Tzannatos
Bethesda, MD
Pas mi ellinon barbaros
"Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a
master."-Demosthenes
**********************************
Vasilios L. Pilarinos
>>> In message (<4nbuqv$o...@news2.ios.com>),
Constantine the Great (crop...@198.4.75.49) wrote :
[ctg> Hehehehe Bravo re Petro!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Glyps'ton ligaki akomi kai isws sou tripsei tin koilia.
[ctg> Den sas topa re paidia??? Den sou topa re Vasili Pilarine esu pou
[ctg> eisai kolo kai brakh me tous servous kai agapas ton Karadzic TOSO
[ctg> POLY!!!!
Kai to pou diafonei o Petros Liapis me tin apopsi mou, ti apoduknii?
Apolitws tipota. O kathenas me tin gnwmmi tou, an kai lanthemeni oso
afora esena kai ton Petro.
[ctg> Akrhbos auto poy leei o Petros. Prin 5 xronia, emeis den eixame
[ctg> TIPOTA me tous koloserbous kai polloi ellhnes oute hxeran ti sto
[ctg> diabolo ginotan kei pano.
Re malaka roufokavliti, h simmahia kai h filia metriete stin ora
anagkis. Otan mas eixan anagki, o Ellhnikos laos edixe tin agapi tou
stous Serbous. Otan tous hriastoume kai autoi to idio tha kanoune; oi
ustashe bastardoi kroates pou tha einai?
[ctg> You're a real dumbass Vasili and I was right from the beginning.
Re salta gamisou bastarde pou tha me peis kai "dumbass". Opos leei
kai ena filaraki mou "h malakia sou eksfedonizei tasakia sto diastima
kai ksirizei elefantes stin anifora." Toso malakas eisai.
Akou.. ebgale i miga kolo kai exese ton kosmo ollo.
"CROPOWER" kai mas to paizei kai ELlhnas. O pateras sou ti ekane
ston deutero pagkosmio? Esfaze Serbous kai ELlhnes san tous upolipous
tous ustashe?
Pappara, eh pappara.
--
__Vasilios_L._Pilarinos_______________________http://www.ml.org/~vpilarin__