Realtime Macedonians - Hammond's history, texts, trivia, trolls, and truth
June R Harton
I wrote
> > > As for all the other quotes, I answered them before and the
> > > "debate" ended in you simply not following up anymore.
> > No Oscar it didn't. I posted till you went into hiding as usual.
> *Sigh*
>http://x63.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=687104793&CONTEXT=981241314.15826289
62
> Click or cut n' paste and read...
> Deja.com: Re: rot on the Synoptic-List
Yes, I found it and must apologize for stating the above, and calling
you a liar, on this issue, in another post here. I either missed it or
my server didn't carry it for some reason.
So, folks, to orientate you to what was initially being discussed...
here is the part of Hammond history that I originally posted. The
next post is Oscar's post that I didn't respond to which will be
followed shortly by my response to that post, giving you time to
assimilate what is being discussed:
Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "The Macedonian State:
The Origins, Institution and History," Calrendon Press, Oxford,
1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
4. The Language of the Macedonians.
What language did these 'Macedones' speak? The name itself
is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means
'highlanders,' and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such
as 'Orestai' amd 'Oreitai,' meaning 'mountain-men.' A reputedly
earlier variant, 'Maketai,' has the same root, which means 'high,'
as in the Greek adjective 'makednos' or the noun mekos.'
The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod
recorded (p. 3 above) has a bearing on the question of Greek
speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes;
as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic
dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to
suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect.
Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins
of Hellen's three sons -- Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus -- who
were the founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely
Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recored this
relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh
century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people.
The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
[27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
and there in the province, but they were of various origins
and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth
century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and
modified Hesiod's genealogy by bringing Macedon and his
descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking
family.
[28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
They disregard or fail to assess the evidence which I have cited,
[29] and they turn instead to 'Macedonian' words and names,
or/and to literary references. Philologists have studied words
which have been cited as 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and
glossaries, and they have come to no certain conclusion; for
some of the words are clearly Greek, and some are clearly not
Greek. That is not surprising; for as the territory of the
Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples
who spoke Illyrian, Paeonian, Thracian and Phrygian, and they
certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors
of lexica and glossaries. The philological studies result in a
verdict, in my opinion, of 'non liquet.' [30]
The toponyms of the Macedonian homeland are
the most significant. Nearly all of them are Greek: Pieria, Lebaea,
Heracleum, Dium, Petra, Leibethra, Aegae, Aegydium, Acesae,
Acesamenae; the rivers Helicon, Aeson, Leucus, Baphyras, Sardon,
Elpe'u's, Mitys; lake Ascuris and the region Lapathus.
The mountain names Olympus and Titarium may be pre-Greek;
Edessa, the earlier name for the place where Aegae was founded,
and its river Ascordus were Phrygian. [31]
The deities worshipped by the Macedones and the names
which they gave to the months were predominantly Greek,
and there is no doubt that these were not borrowings.
To Greek literary writers before the Hellenistic period the
Macedonians were 'barbarians.' The term referred to their way
of life and their institutions, which were those of the 'ethne' and
not of the city-state, and it did not refer to their speech. We can
see this in the case of Epirus. There Thucydides called the tribes
'barbarians.' But inscriptions found in Epirus have shown conclusively
that the Epirote tribes in Thucydides' lifetime were speaking Greek
and used names which were Greek. [32]
In the following century 'barbarian' was only one of the abusive
terms applied by Demosthenes to Philip of Macedon and his people.[33]
In passages which refer to the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander
the Great and the early successors there are mentions of
a Macedonian dialect, such as was likely to have been spoken in the
original Macedonian homeland. On one occassion Alexander
'called out to his guardsmen in Macedonian ('Makedonisti'),
as this [viz. the use of 'Macedonian'] was a signal ('symbolon') that
there was a serious riot.' Normally Alexander and his soldiers
spoke standard Greek, the 'koine,' and that was what the Persians
who were to fight alongside the Macedonians were taught. So the
order 'in Macedonian' was unique, in that all other orders were in
the 'koine.' [34] it is satisfactorily explained as an order in broad
dialect, just as in the Highland Regiment a special order for a particular
purpose could be given in broad Scots by a Scottish officer who
usually spoke the King's English.The use of this dialect among
themselves was a characteristic of the Macedonian soldiers
(rather that the officers) of the King's Army. This point is made
clear in the report -- not in itself dependable -- of the trial of
a Macedonian officer before an Assembly of Macedonians, in
which the officer (Philotas) was mocked for not speaking in dialect. [35]
In 321 when a non-Macedonian general, Eumenes, wanted
to make contact with a hostile group of Macedonian infantrymen,
he sent a Macedonian to speak to them in the Macedonian dialect,
in order to win their confidence. Subsequently, when they and the
other Macdonian soldiers were serving with Eumenes, they
expresed their affection for him by hailing him in the Macedonian dialect
('Makedonisti'). [36] He was to be one of themselves. As Curtius
observed, 'not a man among the Macedonians could bear to part
with a jot of his ancestral customs.' The use of this dialect was one
way in which the Macedonians expressed their apartness from the
world of the Greek city-states. [27] See J. M. Balcer in 'Historia' 37
(1988) 7.[28] FGrH 4 F 74 [29] Most recently E. Badian in
Barr-Sharrar 33-51 disregards the evidence as set out
in e.g. HM 2.39-54, when it goes against his view that the
Macedonians (whom he does not define) spoke a language other
than Greek. [30] The matter is dicussed at some length
in HM 2. 39-54 with reference especially to O. Hoffmann,
'Die Makedonen, ihre Sprache und ihre Volkstun' (Goettingen, 1906)
and J. Kalleris, Les Anciens Macedoniens I (Athens, 1954);
see also Kalleris II and R. A. Crossland in the CAH 3.1.843ff.
[31] For Edessa see HM 1.165 and for the Phrygians
in Macedonia 407-14. Olympus occurs as a Phrygian personal
name. [32] See Hammond, 'Epirus' 419ff. and 525ff.
[33] As Badian, loc. cit. 42, rightly observes: 'this, of course,
is simple abuse.'[34] Plu. 'Alex.'51.6[35] Curtius 6.8.34-6.
[36] PSI XII 2(1951) no. 1284, Plu. Eun.14.11.
Badian, loc. cit. 41 and 50 n.66, discusses the former
and not the latter, which hardly bears out his theory that
Eumenes 'could not directly communicate with Macedonian
soldiers,' and presumably they with him. Badian says in his
note that he is not concerned with the argument as to whether
Macedonian was a 'dialect' or 'a language.' Such an argument
seems to me to be at the heart of the matter. We have a
similar problem in regard to Epirus, where some had thought
the language of the people was Illyrian. In Plu.'Pyrrh.'1.3
reference was made to 'the local 'phone,'' which to me means
'dialect' of Greek; it is so in this instance because Plutarch
is saying that Achilles was called 'in the local 'phone' Aspestos.'
The word 'Aspestos' elsewhere was peculiar to Greek epic,
but it survived in Epirus in normal speech. It is of course
a Greek and not an Illyrian word. See Hammond, 'Epirus' 525ff.,
for the Greek being the language of central Epirus
in the fifth century B.C. "
""""
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
This is Oscar's post to which I have yet to respond:
Subject:Re: rot on the Synoptic-List
Date:10/29/2000
Author:Schlau <sch...@my-deja.com>
<< previous in thread · next in thread >>
In article <8tftfk$70ju$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>,
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
> "Schlau" wrote
> I wrote
> > > > One could as easily say Hammond is misinterpreting things. He
uses
> > > > Hesiod's talk of mythical familes, that are doubtful to even
have
> > > > ever existed among his proof of Greek origin for Makedonians.
> > > ...................................
> > > > > Don't be silly. He is pointing out that all identifications of
the
> > > > > Macedonians tied them into being Greeks in one way or another.
> > > > Hardly.
> > > Hardly what? Read it again:
> > > Taken from N. G. L. Hammond's "The Macedonian State:
> > > The Origins, Institution and History," Calrendon Press, Oxford,
> > > 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
> > > The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod
> > > recorded (p. 3 above) has a bearing on the question of Greek
> > > speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes;
> > > as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic
> > > dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to
> > > suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect.
>
> > Hesiod makes up a entirly mythical family tree that includes Gods,
> > Thracians, Egyptians, and Illyrians, among others that modern
> > historians know for certain weren't related to the Aeolians, or any
> > other Greeks for that matter. And the whole idea about mythic
> > progenitors of an entire race is as much non-sense in Greek
> > "history" as it is in the Bible.
>
> Come on, Oscar! Why are you taking it literally! that was never the
> point! What is it with you and the English language!
That you fail to see the flaw in relying on myth as proof of
historical facts, isn't a failing on my part but yours....
> > There was no person named "Macedon" any more then there was a
> > person named "Shem" so who they were suppose to be related to has
> > no bearing on actual history or lingusitics...
>
> Listen to Bury, and use some intelligence for a change:
>
> "The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
> traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to
> testify."
> John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
> Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
1913? Don't you think something more then eighty years old is a bit out
of date? Might as well drag out Droysen from 1892 while you're at it.
> > > The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
> > > sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
> > > of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
> > > 'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
> > > [27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
> > > and there in the province, but they were of various origins
> > > and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
> > > We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
> > > be speakers of Greek.
> >The Makedonians weren't much beyond the Pierian Mountains at the
> > time
>
> Rubbish. Oscar, why do you pretend to know about Greek history?
>
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.
0126
> &layout=&loc=5.17
> For fair use only
> XVII. [2]
> Now there is a very straight way from the Prasiad lake to Macedonia.
> First there is near the lake that mine from which Alexander later
> drew a daily revenue of a talent of silver, and when a person
> has passed the mine, he need only cross the mountain called
> Dysorum2 to be in Macedonia.
The Dysorum mountain range isn't the Pierian, and Herodotus is talking
about the time of Alexander (III) more then three hundred years after the
reign of Perdikkas I who I was talking about...
> >and Thracians inhabited much of what would become the kingdom of
> > Makedonia and they wore hats.
>
> No they didn't. And they were not "yauna"...a word descriptive of
> Greeks.
Yauna means: "people by the sea". The Persians called the Hebrews &
Phillistines the Ba yauna...(Yewanim in Hebrew). That mean the Jews are
Greeks too? And Yauna is also a modern Persian last name.
> > > [28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
> > > a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
> > > who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
> > > Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
> > > conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > Hammond here is telling you exactly what I've been telling you
> > for years "Harton". Most historians don't agree with him, or with
> > each other on the subject of the Ancient Makedonians...
>
> Stupid as usual, Oscar...backto your problem with the English
> language! THAT sentence by Hammond was referring to
>
> "Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
> conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars."
>
> He is saying that his three examples should be enough to end
> the matter WITHOUT recourse to further information....but, no,
> most scholars search for futher evidence than that.
Have you even read what other historians, Borza among them, think of some
of Hammond's opinions reguarding Ancient Greece? They don't agree with him
and directly question his theories and Hammond is well aware of this. The
only people who would come to your type of interpertation of what Hammond
wrote, is someone who hasn't read the books on the subject but a snipet here
or there...
> > > > > > The same Hesiod btw is used by Afro-centric "historians" to
> > > > > >prove that Athens was founded by blacks, since Hesiod says an
> > > > > >Egyptian founded Athens. That is not the point.
> > > > > > The point is that Hesiod makes claims so out of scope of
> > > > > >reality that it lessens his credibility as a source as a
> > > > > >whole. Or do you
> > > > > >actually believe Hesiod when he says Athens was founded by
> > > > > >Egyptians?
>
> .> > There is a lot of unknowns about the pre-Mycenaean times and even
> > > the Mycenaean times, so what is your point?
>
> > Hesiod states things that modern archaeological clearly shows to
> > be false, making Hesiod not a credible source of information...
>
> Again, not the point. The identification of Macedonians and Magnesians
> together as similar peoples is the point. And the fact that Magnesians
> were also clearly identified as Greek.
Egyptians, Persians, "Aethiopians", Illyrians, Thracians, Phyrgians, and
Lydians are in Hesiod's mythic family too. Are the inclusion of those groups
show them clearly to be Greek as well?
> > > The quotes are clearly ON the issue and tell it like it is even if
> > > you prefer to not see them. You smell....in fact stink, of a
> > > racist bias against Greeks when you avoid what is in front of you.
>
> > Someone who doesn't even speak Greek or has the slightest notion
> > of modern Greece (nor it seems Ancient/Classical Greece) is going to
> > tell me I'm biased against Greeks? Haha..Ay Hyessou..
>
> You have no idea of what you are talking about on all three statements
> regarding me.
Yes your purposly avoid revealing anything personal about yourself. Don't
even use your own name. Got something to hide maybe?
> Second, yes, Oscar, biased and racist, for you do
> everything to ignore and make nothing of the clear information
> presented to you...
Your sense of clear seems to be. "I have an opinion on this and if you
disagree, then you're biased and racist." The Kuchinsky/ADR/"Harton" school
of "history"...
> to the emphatic detriment of the modern Greeks.
Yes I'm sure modern Greece will just crumble to pieces if I don't believe
the Ancient Makedonians were ethnically Greek.
> First, you spout nonsense about me, second Greeks have a right to
> defend their heritage against revisionist historians, and fools like
> you. In fact, every philhellene of any worth,
Any historian of any worth isn't a phil anything, They must remain
objective. Otherwise they will alter/interpet the evidence to fit thier pet
theories, rather then altering thier theories to fit the evidence.
> Philhellenes died by their thousands to have Hellas reborn...
>...are we to spit on their graves?!
In anything I posted, have I suggested that any modern border of Greece
should be changed? No. So spare us the rhetoric..
> > > > "In brief, one must conclude that the similarities between some
> > > > Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves
> > > > proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe, even though it is
> > > > undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences
> > > > eventually became pervasive."
> > > > - Eugene Borza
> > > > "In the Shadow of Olympus"
> > > > Princeton Univ Pr 1992
> > >
> > > And what does that say....nothing.
> > It says all the Hellenic culture certain peoples list as proof that
> > the Makedonians were indeed Greeks isn't proof that they were.
>
> No it doesn't at all. it is saying that similarities between some
> custom and objects are not sufficient information to make that > >
conclusion.
Which is precisly what alot of your "proofs" happen to be, that it's via
quotes taken from some ancient and modern scholars is inmaterial..
> there is much more than that!
Not according to Borza or Green or Jouguet or Jaeger, or any number of
others. And even supporters of the Macedonians=Greeks theory, such as
Hammond are quick to point out that it's still a theory and far
more needs to be researched before any conclusive statements be made.
> > > They are not _not_ proof then either, are they! And Borza also
says
> > > this:
> > > "We have seen that the Makedones or highlanders of mountainous
> > >western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek
> > > stock. That is northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European
> > >speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were
later >
> >known by different names as they established their regional
identities in
> > > separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been
> > >related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south
> > > to .become the historical Dorians, and to
> > > other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Molossians."
pp.78
> > > Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of
> > > Macedon",Princeton, 1990
>
> > Borza is saying the Makedonians may have been related to the
> > Dorians, both being Indo-Europeans. But the proto-Celtic,
> > proto-Germanics, Thracians, and Illyricans all being Indo-Europeans
> > were also related to the Dorians.
>
> Stop being such a dumb ass! You obviously have such a bias you can't
> even accept the words in black and white before you:
You see what you want to see. The simple fact of the matter is that Borza
doesn't believe that Macedonians were ethnically Greeks.
If you actually read what you quote, you'd know Borza's complete view of
the matter...
"The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians
may be more ingenious than convincing, resting
uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."
"There is no archaeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic
arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the
Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece." - Eugene Borza,
"In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of Macedon",Princeton, 1990
> > > And, since Wilcken is the person saying the following, it is YOU
> > > taking something said out of context and parading it as if it is a
> > > denial of the Greekness of the Macedonians which it obviously
isn't:
> > > "It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek
> > > tribe related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in
the
> > > distant north, they could not participate in the progress of
> > > civilization of the Greek people that migrated southward...".
> > > Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:
>
> > As I pointed out before, related to the Dorians, doesn't mean too
> > much in the context of the mass migration/invasion of Indo-European
> > peoples as numerous people that are very much not Greeks were also
> > related to the Dorians. Wilcken isn't wrong, just what you think
> > he's saying is.
>
> You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Dorians were
> specifically identified as an ethnic Greek tribe.
I didn't say otherwise. Or are you dumb enough to think that since the
Dorians were Greek, that then means they weren't Indo-Europeans?
>
> > > > "So little do the Macedonians seem to have belonged to the
Hellenic
> > > > community at the beginning, that they did not take part in the
> > > > great Games of Greece, and when the Kings of Macedon were
> > > > admitted to them, it was not as Macedonians, but as Heraclids.
> > > That is correct. The Macedonian kingdom was barely being eeked
> > > out "in the beginning". You have tribes in the Pindus mountains
NOT
> > > city state folk.
>
> > The Makedonian exclusion from the games until a relative late
period,
> > had little to do with the civilized nature of Makedon considering
from
> > the start, the Makedonian Kingdom had cities (albiet taken over from
> > Phyrgians and other peoples)
>
> Again you are wrong. Macedonia was being formed at a relatively
> late period from an area that was still tribal.
Never heard of Aigai(Edessa) have you? Not surprising..
> Do yourself a favor
> and read Herodotos histories before asuming further that you know
> anything about the times.
Do everyone a favour and read more then snipets of quotes before you start
your discussions.
> > > > Isocrates, in the
> > > > 'Philip' praises them for not having imposed their kingship on
the
> > > > Hellenes, to whom the kingship is always oppressive, and for
> > > > having gone among foreigners to establish it. He, therefore,
did
> > > > not regard the Macedonians as Greeks."
>
> > > That is not a correct statement.
> > > He did not regard the Macedonian Greek's _subjects_ as Greek.
> > > HE, acknowleging Thucydides history, sees them, the lower
> > >Macedonians, descendents of the Teminids, as Greek and knows
> > > nothing of the interior peoples,
>
> > The Macedonians were the interior peoples. Prior to Perdikkas the
> > Makedonians inhabited the area around the Pierian Mountains.
> > Euboean, Argolid, and Athenian colonies around the mouth of the
Axios River
from
> > 750 bc on account for talk of Greeks in "Macedon".
>
> Again, no, not in reference to Thucydides histories:
>
> [2.99.1]
>
> Assembling in Doberus, they (the Thracians) prepared for descending
> from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of
> Perdiccas lay;
>
> [2.99.3]
>
> The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia,
> was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas,
That's refering to Perdikkas III, I was refering to Perdikkas I, nearly
300 years before. Read more carefully next time...
> > > In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
> > > Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
> > > League,
> > 200 bc is too late,
>
> Do you want Herotos' much earlier data stating that the Macedonians
> and Dorians are the Hellenic people and the athenians and Ionians
> are not originally Greek people? He is much much, much earlier
> than Demosthenes and Isocrates political statements, isn't he?
No he actually isn't. Only about fifty years prior.
> >by that time the "Macedonian Kingdom" included
> > the entire Chalcidice, Methone, and Pydna; all areas settled by
> > Greeks from Hellas. And Philip V, or his delegate, is very much
> > playing at politics. Of course he's going to say the Romans are the
> > outsiders. He knew that once the Romans were in Hellas, Macedonian
> > influence over Hellas would pretty much be ended.
>
> However, Oscar, realated to the statement, it is speaking of an ethnic
> identity from antiquity:
It is a Macedonian King via his ambassador trying to keep the Romans out
of the region and keep Macedonia supreme. It's politics in
antiquity.
> "The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are
> divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
> to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
> will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
> reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
> and nature is eternal. "
>
> And, Oscar, in the Macedonian extremis of the time the statement
> is quite racist in tone;
That's nice, but I didn't post that quote, you did.
> > > Since you somehow believed that, you are way out of track on the
> > > actual situation. Rather than give you a complete education on
Greece
> > > (we've been done this road before) read this from Bury:
> > (snip)
> > What Bury says is his own viewpoint.
>
> Of course it is opinion. It is also correct to anyone who is a real
> scholar of ancient Greece.
Bury is a real dead scholar. He was writing in 1913. Use something a bit
more modern next time.
> >And the differance is that unlike previous hegemonies of various
> city->states/leagues, Macedonia ushered in absolutism. Philip granted
> >marginal autonomy, but with his assassinated and revolt of Hellas,
> >all that ended. Bury is right in that Chaeronea isn't the
signifigant
> >battle upon which Greek liberty perished, it was at the battles
> >three years later in 335 bc.
>
> You are very incorrect. The cities were left to their own devices
> and foreign policy was simply curtailed.
Thebes was burnt to the ground and it's citizens enslaved. And when
Alexander went off to fight in Persia, a Makedonian garrison under the
command of Antipater, was left in charge of Greece and he crushed Sparta and
forced it under Macedonian control and replaced Athens's government with a
ne one that caused Demosthenes to commit suicide.
> You are an extremist and
> have no business making brassy statements about Greek history
> when you have so little information or understanding of it.
You're gazing into the water again I see. Try not to bark now..
> > > You are ignoring that it is _historians_ that time and again in
the
> > > ancient world claim that the Macedonians were Greeks.
>
> > Arrian, Plutarch,Diodorus, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos to name
> > a few do not in the least.
>
> They absolutely do, why are you lying?
Don't have the others handy atm but:
"The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry between the
Greeks and Macedonians."
- Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander
(Book II)
> > While Nearchus, Alexander's own Admiral, has very little to say
> > on the subject.
>
> _All_ the ancient historians in one way or another identify the
> Macedonians as Greeks.
> For you to say otherwise is simply
> an aspect of your revisionism and bias.
For you to make such a sweeping statement when you know you haven't read all
the ancient historians, not even the most diligent of scholars have in full,
is simple grandstanding nonsense and doesn't further any academic
discussion.
> > "We have signed another document guaranteeing full autonomy, a Serb
> > government to this province; we signed it with the representatives
> > of the Albanians who are loyal to Yugoslavia and other national
> > communities."
> > Mr. Jovanovic's, the Yugoslav ambassador, statment above is
> > complete non-sense.
>
> That is not complete nonsense at all. You are simply a propagandist
> and will not confrnt reality.
>
> > Yugoslavia signed something saying they'd promise to talk about
> > autonomy, they didn't sign something granting it. And meanwhile the
> > build up of Federal Yugoslav forces in Kosovo and the human rights
> > abuses there continued...
>
> Stop repeating your nonsense. the historical record is very clear on
> what actually happened,
Yes it is very clear. I posted a link to a historical record, written by a
non-Nato source. Some reason why you snipped the quote and webpage?
> you and propaganda to the contrary.
> What I indicated happened, happened
Since you snipped it without comment
here it is again:
http://www.ihf-hr.org/reports/99kosovo.htm
--Oscar Schlaf--
"Timeo Danaos et Dona ferentes"
Marcello Fabretti
JUNEH...@prodigy.net wrote on 13/2/01 4:44 PM:
Oscar 1, Spirit 0.
Marcello
June R Harton
"Marcello Fabretti" wrote
> Oscar 1, Spirit 0.
:)
Ah, Marcello! You are thus as intelligent as Oscar! (Poor boy!)
:)
June R Harton
Oscar wrote
> > > As for all the other quotes, I answered them before ....
Oscar, this was your statement re my other quotes:
"Your quotes include ones from Wilcken in 1967, Hamilton in '73, Fox in
'74, Stoneman in '77, and the Ancient Roman historian Quintus Curtius
Rufus. That isn't too current. Even Hammond's "Macedonian State" is
eleven years old.."
Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is complete
foolishness to make a statement like that unless current knowledge
has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered evidence that
did not exist at the time of writing of these scholars. That is not the
case in this instance and, if anything, finds, to the present, have rather
gone as evidence that the opposite of your position is true. I will follow
this with further information where you mention 'Bury' and make allegations
re 'archaeology' in the post I hadn't answered, below.
Re Rufus, your statement above is out of context, as after you posted
a statement by Badian, re Rufus, I posted Rufus' text to show Badian's
distortion of the facts.
For any reader who has not seen the quotes that I posted, I am posting
them immediately here, and I will continue with Oscar's unanswered
post below them.
For fair use only:
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
"It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe
related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in the distant
north, they could not participate in the progress of civilization of the
Greek
people that migrated southward...".
Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:
"A strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in
Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles compared
with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality; for example the
names of the true full blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes
and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
"And yet when we take into account the political conditions, religion and
morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a
Greek race akin to the Dorians."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton publications, 1967.
"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
"These plains would be the envy of any Greek visitor who crossed their
southern border by the narrow vale of Tempe and the foot of Mount Olympus.
He would pass the frontier post of Heraclion, town of Heracles, and stop at
the harbour town of Dion, named after the Greek god Zeus, ancestor of the
Macedonian kings, and site of a yearly nine-day festival of the arts in
honour of Zeus and the nine Greek Muses. There he would walk through city
gates in a wall of brick, down the paved length of a sacred way, between the
theatre, gymnasiums and a temple with Doric pillars: suitably, the nearby
villages were linked with the myth of Orpheus, the famous bard of Greek
legend. He was still in a world of Greek gods and sacrifices, of Greek plays
and Greek language, though the natives might speak Greek with a northern
accent which hardened 'ch' into 'g'. 'th' into 'd' and pronounced King
Philip as 'Bilip'. Bearing on up the coast, he would find the plain no less
abundant and the towns more defiantly Greek."
Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", The Dial Press Publications, 1974
"In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their
language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names,
which are without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that
they did not merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives
(though with a local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example).
The Macedonians' own traditions derived their royal house from one
Argeas, son of Macedon, son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty,
the Temenids, had its origin in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos
in Greece, the first of these kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became
a most important part of the cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled
Alexander I to compete at the Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes
were allowed to do).... The Macedonians, then, were racially Greek."
Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge, London and
New York, 1977
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3
Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16
"Also, following Alexander's death, the rapid spread of Koine
based on Attic Greek made any distinction between Greek
and the language of 'the Macedonians' an academic one which
opposing camps continue to fight over. That Greek so easily
subsumed the local Macedonian dialect would indicate that
the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed from Greek
after all."
A.B. Boworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998,
Canto Edition
"Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon, concentrating
power in his own hands and office to his Companions. In nationality the
Companions remained overwhemingly Hellenic."
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their
origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now,
political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aischines once even
found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented
by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a
meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'Entirely Greek'.
Demosthenes' allegations were lent on appearance of credibility by the fact,
apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being
determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different
from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common
to western Greeks of Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the
Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted.
Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was
the issue raised at all."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press,
LA, 1990
"The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most
easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia
but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their
monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia,
suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in
principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle
the Illyrian problem at its roots."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.
"A new force began to make itself felt on the northern fringe of Hellas, the
kingdom of Macedon. Some people -Macedonians for the most part- claimed
it to be a Greek state and part of the Greek world. The Macedonians spoke
Greek and attended Hellenic festivals; their kings claimed to be descented
from Greek families- from Achilles, the great Achaean hero of the Iliad, no
less."
J.M. Roberts, "A Short History of the World", Oxford University Press, New
York, 1993
"Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine,
descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as
Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian...The Macedonians
over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member
of the Greek-speaking peoples."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth & Co. Ltd.,
London, 1994
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the
same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At
one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were
speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was
Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994
MACEDON
"Outlying Greek kingdom north of Thessaly, inland from the Thermaic Gulf,
on the northwest Aegean coast...Its name came from an ancient Greek
word meaning highlanders...Macedon was inhabited by various peoples
of Dorian-Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian descent, who spoke a Greek dialect
and worshipped Greek gods...Unification and modernization came gradually,
at the hands of kings of Dorian descent."
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World.", Oxford, 1995
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
Now to your unanswered post:
Having scanned over your replies I must say that most people would
have hid in shame or pretended that someone else had posted
that response in soc.history, rather than expose again the sillyness
posted.
Since you have brought it to the surface, however, let's have a look
at it.
Hmmmm...there was no Mycenae,Troy, Knossos I suppose? Silly,
Oscar. And see below re archeogical data re Dorians.
> > There was no person named "Macedon" any more then there was a
> > person named "Shem" so who they were suppose to be related to has
> > no bearing on actual history or lingusitics...
> Listen to Bury, and use some intelligence for a change:
> "The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
> traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to
> testify."
> John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
> Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
" 1913? Don't you think something more then eighty years old is a bit out
of date? Might as well drag out Droysen from 1892 while you're at it."
It is incredible that you can even get that idiotic statement 'down
on paper', Oscar! J.B. Bury was a regius professor and a fellow
of King's College in the University of Cambridge.
You are asking folks to compare the half-baked academia of Borza
rife with faulty logic and omitted data to the impeccable scholars
of the past. Where is your head, man?! They knew these works
backwards, and were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and
Latin in their halloed halls of learning. Moreover, every find since then
has intensified the data identifying the Macedonians as a Greek
people (Borza to the contrary!).
As for the Borza piece, as Anastassios (to save time) recently posted,
"It has been pointed time and time again that Borza prefaces this as
an extreme position poised to "generate discussion". He admits that
the Macedonians, whoever they were (and he has no suggestions)
were "fully hellenized" by the time we meet them in "history books".
Come on, folks...this was antiquity!!! How did the Macedonians become
"hellenized" in the 5th century? Did Athens ran an educational campaign
in the wilds of Macedonia? This is laughable. Borza is simply
argumentative because this is the best way to get a lot of citations in an
academic environment. Put out a controversial piece that everyone
wants to refute and one starts piling up citations by the dozen!!!"
> > > The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
> > > sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
> > > of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
> > > 'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
> > > [27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
> > > and there in the province, but they were of various origins
> > > and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
> > > We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
> > > be speakers of Greek.
> >The Makedonians weren't much beyond the Pierian Mountains at the
> > time
> Rubbish. Oscar, why do you pretend to know about Greek history?
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.
0126
> &layout=&loc=5.17
> For fair use only
> XVII. [2]
> Now there is a very straight way from the Prasiad lake to Macedonia.
> First there is near the lake that mine from which Alexander later
> drew a daily revenue of a talent of silver, and when a person
> has passed the mine, he need only cross the mountain called
> Dysorum2 to be in Macedonia.
"The Dysorum mountain range isn't the Pierian,.."
That's the point.
:)
".. and Herodotus is talking about the time of Alexander (III) more then
three hundred years after the reign of Perdikkas I who I was talking
about..."
Well, Oscar, I have seen Herodotos called many things but never
prescient!
HERODOTOS (ca. 490 B.C. - 424 B.C.)
Alexander I (ca. 495 B. C. - 450 /440 B.C.)
Alexander III (336 B. C. - 145 B.C.)
You were saying, Oscar?
> >and Thracians inhabited much of what would become the kingdom of
> > Makedonia and they wore hats.
> No they didn't. And they were not "yauna"...a word descriptive of
> Greeks.
"Yauna means: "people by the sea". The Persians called the Hebrews &
Phillistines the Ba yauna...(Yewanim in Hebrew). That mean the Jews are
Greeks too? And Yauna is also a modern Persian last name."
Are you trying to be funny, Oscar? Yauna is not even a discussible issue.
That was the Persian name for the Ionian Greeks. PERIOD.
> > > [28] Hesiod, Persia, Hellanicus had no motive for making
> > > a false statement about the language of the Macedonians,
> > > who were then an obscure and not a powerful people.
> > > Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
> > > conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Hammond here is telling you exactly what I've been telling you
> > for years "Harton". Most historians don't agree with him, or with
> > each other on the subject of the Ancient Makedonians...
> Stupid as usual, Oscar...back to your problem with the English
> language! THAT sentence by Hammond was referring to
> "Their independent testimonies should be accepted as
> conclusive. That, however, is not the opinion of most scholars."
> He is saying that his three examples should be enough to end
> the matter WITHOUT recourse to further information....but, no,
> most scholars search for futher evidence than that.
"Have you even read what other historians, Borza among them, think
of some of Hammond's opinions reguarding Ancient Greece? They
don't agree with him and directly question his theories and Hammond
is well aware of this."
See above info on Borza, Oscar.
"The only people who would come to your type of interpertation of what
Hammond wrote, is someone who hasn't read the books on the subject
but a snipet here or there..."
Oscar, you are _completely_ off the mark. Hammond's statements are
in clear English and they say exactly what I stated. As far as snipet...
it is obvious that it is yourself that has done little research into the
matter or you would not continue to make a complete fool of yourself
by spouting inanities from Borza. You should not even be entering this
discussion with such impoverishment of knowledge.
> > > > > > The same Hesiod btw is used by Afro-centric "historians" to
> > > > > >prove that Athens was founded by blacks, since Hesiod says an
> > > > > >Egyptian founded Athens.
> > > That is not the point.
> > > > > > The point is that Hesiod makes claims so out of scope of
> > > > > >reality that it lessens his credibility as a source as a
> > > > > >whole. Or do you
> > > > > >actually believe Hesiod when he says Athens was founded by
> > > > > >Egyptians?
> > > There is a lot of unknowns about the pre-Mycenaean times and even
> > > the Mycenaean times, so what is your point?
> > Hesiod states things that modern archaeological clearly shows to
> > be false, making Hesiod not a credible source of information...
> Again, not the point. The identification of Macedonians and Magnesians
> together as similar peoples is the point. And the fact that Magnesians
> were also clearly identified as Greek.
"Egyptians, Persians, "Aethiopians", Illyrians, Thracians, Phyrgians, and
Lydians are in Hesiod's mythic family too. Are the inclusion of those groups
show them clearly to be Greek as well?"
Oscar, you put a lot of generalities on paper and ask a stupid question.
It may all be a garble to you...but then I have already told you to lay off
Greek history till you study it. Hesiod, a Greek, specifically stated in
Hammond's words....
**Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins of Hellen's
three sons -- Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus -- who were the
founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely Doric,
Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship,
unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the
Macedones were a Greek-speaking people.**
> > > The quotes are clearly ON the issue and tell it like it is even if
> > > you prefer to not see them. You smell....in fact stink, of a
> > > racist bias against Greeks when you avoid what is infront of you.
> > Someone who doesn't even speak Greek or has the slightest notion
> > of modern Greece (nor it seems Ancient/Classical Greece) is going to
> > tell me I'm biased against Greeks? Haha..Ay Hyessou..
> You have no idea of what you are talking about on all three statements
> regarding me.
"Yes your purposly avoid revealing anything personal about yourself. Don't
even use your own name. Got something to hide maybe?"
You know the answer to that, Oscar. Nobody will prevent me exposing
the lies and hidden intentions of such as Gail and the rest. Their threats
of mayhem (encouraged openly by Gail, btw) shall not suceed in silencing
the truth.
> Second, yes, Oscar, biased and racist, for you do
> everything to ignore and make nothing of the clear information
> presented to you...
"Your sense of clear seems to be. "I have an opinion on this and if you
disagree, then you're biased and racist." The Kuchinsky/ADR/"Harton"
school of "history"..."
My sense of 'clear', is exactly that. When someone types CAT that is CAT.
Very, very clear, Oscar.
> to the emphatic detriment of the modern Greeks.
"Yes I'm sure modern Greece will just crumble to pieces if I don't believe
the Ancient Makedonians were ethnically Greek."
Over your head again, Oscar. The Balkans has suffered enough. The
original Bulgarian scam on the Macedonian name in the 19/20th century
followed by Tito's scam on the name has seen literally thousands of
people killed in the 2nd Balkan War, WW I, WW II, and the Greek
Civil-War. Fyrom was born unfurling a Flag with the real Macedonians
symbol on their flag and constitutional provisions claiming rights in the
"rest" of Macedonia. Well, first, Fyrom is NOT the area of ancient
Macedonia and, second, the Fyromians are not anything to do with the
ancient Macedonian Greeks, and are actually better described as
TitoBulgarians.
Yet, Oscar, you sit there assaulting the consensus of modern historians who
say 'yes, indeed the Macedonians were Greek'....which, your opposite idea,
and such ignorants as you, is USED by the Fyromian revisionists to say that
"No, they weren't Greek and they are "US"!...themselves....thus 'for sure'
they have rights to the "rest" of Macedonia.
Thus you giving them ammunition in their lies by your lies and/or lazyness.
Thus assisting the possible mayhem to come in the Balkans. Because of this,
and what I said to you earlier (below) about 'Hellas reborn',...THUS...I AM,
and thus I expose your ignorance (definition relating to education and
understanding) in this entire area.
> First, you spout nonsense about me, second Greeks have a right to
> defend their heritage against revisionist historians, and fools like
> you. In fact, every philhellene of any worth,
"Any historian of any worth isn't a phil anything, They must remain
objective. Otherwise they will alter/interpet the evidence to fit thier pet
theories, rather then altering thier theories to fit the evidence.
If the objective view was yours and carried by most historians I would
NOT be pointing out to you your errors."
That is a totally FALSE statement by you. The OBJECTIVE view, AND
the view of at least 90% of modern age historians, for instance read the
quotes above again, absolutely say what I am saying.
When you make FALSE statements like the above you are guilty of
misleading readers, and, Oscar, that shall NOT be tolerated.
> Philhellenes died by their thousands to have Hellas reborn...
>...are we to spit on their graves?!
"In anything I posted, have I suggested that any modern border of Greece
should be changed? No. So spare us the rhetoric.."
Gave you more above. Read and learn and hold your peace.
> > > > "In brief, one must conclude that the similarities between some
> > > > Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves
> > > > proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe, even though it is
> > > > undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences
> > > > eventually became pervasive."
> > > > - Eugene Borza
> > > > "In the Shadow of Olympus"
> > > > Princeton Univ Pr 1992
> > > And what does that say....nothing.
> > It says all the Hellenic culture certain peoples list as proof that
> > the Makedonians were indeed Greeks isn't proof that they were.
> No it doesn't at all. It is saying that similarities between some
> custom and objects are not sufficient information to make that
> conclusion.
" Which is precisly what alot of your "proofs" happen to be, that it's via
quotes taken from some ancient and modern scholars is inmaterial.."
*Some customs and objects* is not at all the same as the statements by
those ancient and modern historians (see the statements above again
and compare them with your lie!)...so stop *lying* to people!
> there is much more than that!
Not according to Borza or Green or Jouguet or Jaeger, or any number of
others.
B/S. But for a few seekers of notoriety and Athenophiles, who should know
better, *all* say that the Macedonians were Greek.
"And even supporters of the Macedonians=Greeks theory, such as
Hammond are quick to point out that it's still a theory and far
more needs to be researched before any conclusive statements be made."
What nonsense you post Oscar! Read those extracts above again
and you will see you are incorrect.
> > > They are not _not_ proof then either, are they! And Borza also
>>>>says this:
> > > "We have seen that the Makedones or highlanders of mountainous
> > >western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek
> > > stock. That is northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European
> > >speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were
>>>>later known by different names as they established their regional
>>>>identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians
>>>> may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time
>>>> migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to
> > > other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Molossians."
>>>>pp.78
> > > Eugene Borza, "In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of
> > > Macedon",Princeton, 1990
> > Borza is saying the Makedonians may have been related to the
> > Dorians, both being Indo-Europeans. But the proto-Celtic,
> > proto-Germanics, Thracians, and Illyricans all being Indo-Europeans
> > were also related to the Dorians.
> Stop being such a dumb ass! You obviously have such a bias you can't
> even accept the words in black and white before you:
"You see what you want to see."
B/S. You, Oscar, are able only to fool people who are moron level when
it is black and white in front of them.
"The simple fact of the matter is that Borza doesn't believe that
Macedonians were ethnically Greeks. If you actually read what
you quote, you'd know Borza's complete view of the matter...
No *I* did not quote the below quote. Probably yours.
"The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the
Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting
uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."
"There is no archaeological record of the Dorian movements,
and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk
traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest
Greece." - Eugene Borza,
"In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of Macedon",
Princeton, 1990
hahahahahahahahaha
Since you actually believe that....you show your complete ignorance
not only of history but also archaeology! Let me advise you again,
Oscar...before opening your mouth in future, consider whether you
really know anything about the subject first, then after realizing that
you haven't the foggiest idea *start* to learn....then and only then
can you tentatively venture some opinion....and down the line aways
then you'll actually be able to make a valid judgement.
The remnants of the Mycenaean world IS the archaeological
evidence! The linguistic change in the Peloponnese is the evidence.
The linguistic changes and connections elsewhere are the evidence!
The dark age is the evidence! The memories recorded are the evidence!
There is practically no historian that denies the Dorian invasion!
What Borza is using for the inanity he wrote is certain other elements
...which Chadwick (ALONE by the way) suggested that the solution to
was that the Dorians were a lower class who destroyed their masters
instead of an invading force.
Get yourself a copy of Drews "The coming of the Greeks", 1988.
He fully examines all the data in detail and the various therories
advanced by the specialists and is in simple enough language that
even you should be able to understand it. Regarding Chadwick, Drews
shows the fallacy of Chadwick's idea, and he himself suggests that the
undeniable Dorian takeover of the Peloponnese was accomplished
*first* by the destruction on the sites by ca 1125 b.c. (having continued
over some 100 years)...THEN the take over of the emptied areas.
> > > And, since Wilcken is the person saying the following, it is YOU
> > > taking something said out of context and parading it as if it is a
> > > denial of the Greekness of the Macedonians which it obviously
>>>>>isn't:
> > > "It seems more and more certain that the Macedonians were a Greek
> > > tribe related to the Dorians. However, as they stayed high up in
>>>>>the distant north, they could not participate in the progress of
> > > civilization of the Greek people that migrated southward...".
> > > Ul. Wilcken, Alexandre le Grand, op. cit., p. 33:
> > As I pointed out before, related to the Dorians, doesn't mean too
> > much in the context of the mass migration/invasion of Indo-European
> > peoples as numerous people that are very much not Greeks were also
> > related to the Dorians. Wilcken isn't wrong, just what you think
> > he's saying is.
> You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Dorians
> were specifically identified as an ethnic Greek tribe.
>I didn't say otherwise. Or are you dumb enough to think that since the
>Dorians were Greek, that then means they weren't Indo-Europeans?
Oscar you degrade what little gray matter you have when you twist
and turn with nonsense. Wilcken states ".....Macedonians were a *Greek*
tribe" in the quote above.
> > > > "So little do the Macedonians seem to have belonged to the
>>>>>> Hellenic community at the beginning, that they did not take part
>>>>>> in the great Games of Greece, and when the Kings of Macedon
>>>>>> were admitted to them, it was not as Macedonians, but as Heraclids.
> > > That is correct. The Macedonian kingdom was barely being eeked
> > > out "in the beginning". You have tribes in the Pindus mountains
>>>>>NOT city state folk.
> > The Makedonian exclusion from the games until a relative late
>>>period, had little to do with the civilized nature of Makedon
>>>considering from the start, the Makedonian Kingdom had cities
>>>(albiet taken over from Phyrgians and other peoples)
> Again you are wrong. Macedonia was being formed at a relatively
> late period from an area that was still tribal.
Never heard of Aigai(Edessa) have you? Not surprising..
Don't be stupid. However the occupation of Aigai and subsequent
expansion of lower Macedonia occurred quite late, whereas the
Macedonians in the Pindus were several hundreds of yours earlier.
> Do yourself a favor and read Herodotos histories before asuming
> further that you know anything about the times.
"Do everyone a favour and read more then snipets of quotes before
you start your discussions."
Oscar, when you very well know that it is yourself that has been
getting your data from propaganda pampletiers and you then suggest
that that was I......it simply confirms you as a Troll who has zero interest
in truth or in being anything more than a maleducated dilletante. That
would be OK *but for* those readers who don't know enough being
mislead by your stupidity and lies.
> > > > Isocrates, in the 'Philip' praises them for not having imposed
>>>>> their kingship on the
> > > > Hellenes, to whom the kingship is always oppressive, and for
> > > > having gone among foreigners to establish it. He, therefore,
>>>>>>did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks."
> > > That is not a correct statement.
> > > He did not regard the Macedonian Greek's _subjects_ as Greek.
> > > HE, acknowleging Thucydides history, sees them, the lower
> > >Macedonians, descendents of the Teminids, as Greek and knows
> > > nothing of the interior peoples,
> > The Macedonians were the interior peoples. Prior to Perdikkas the
> > Makedonians inhabited the area around the Pierian Mountains.
> > Euboean, Argolid, and Athenian colonies around the mouth of the
>>>Axios River from 750 bc on account for talk of Greeks in "Macedon".
> Again, no, not in reference to Thucydides histories:
> [2.99.1]
> Assembling in Doberus, they (the Thracians) prepared for descending
> from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of
> Perdiccas lay;
>[2.99.3]
> The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia,
> was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas,
"That's refering to Perdikkas III, I was refering to Perdikkas I, nearly
300 years before. Read more carefully next time..."
Perdikkas II 454 B.C. - 413 B.C.
Perdikkas III was 365 B.C. - 359 B.C.
Thucydides 460 B.C. - 395 B.C.
Now, Oscar, just who is Thucydides refering to? Yes, however, I see
(below) that your answer, albeit wrong, was referring to Perdikkas I
not Perdikkas II.
And let's see what it is you think you have some information about:
I said re Isocrates:
> > > HE, acknowleging Thucydides history, sees them, the lower
> > >Macedonians, descendents of the Teminids, as Greek and knows
> > > nothing of the interior peoples,
You said:
> > The Macedonians were the interior peoples. Prior to Perdikkas the
> > Makedonians inhabited the area around the Pierian Mountains.
> > Euboean, Argolid, and Athenian colonies around the mouth of the
>>>Axios River from 750 bc on account for talk of Greeks in "Macedon".
You are obviously referring to the ARGEADS, those people who became
known as the *Lower* Macedonians ....they were identified as Greeks per
Thucydides as I mentioned:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=thuc.+2.99.1
For fair use only
Thucydides Histories 2.99.1 - 2.99.6
[2.99.1]
Assembling in Doberus, they (the Thracians) prepared for
descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia,
where the dominions of Perdiccas lay;
[2.99.2]
for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland,
though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of
their kindred, still have their own separate governments.
[ALTERNATE TRANSLATION OF 2.99.2
"2.99.2 There is an upper Macedonia, which is inhabited by
Lyncestians, Elimiots, and other tribes;
these are allies and tributaries of the lower Macedonians,
but have kings of their own."
This is taken from Benjamin Jowett's translation found in
Francis R. B. Godolphin's "The Greek Historians:
The Complete and Unabridged Historical Works of Herodotus,
Thucydies, Xenophon & Arrian" v.1, Random House, NY,
1942, p.681.]
[2.99.3]
The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia,
was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas,
and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.
This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians,
who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places
under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon
(indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea
is still called the Pierian gulf)
of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians,
from Bottia,
[2.99.4]
and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along
the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea;
the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon,
being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians.
[2.99.5]
From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of
whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca,
and the Almopians from Almopia.
[2.99.6]
These Macedonians also conquered places belonging
to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia,
Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now
called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces,
Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king.
That Perdikkas is Perkikkas II, as I mentioned.
Anyway what we were looking at, from you, was this:
> > The Macedonians were the interior peoples. Prior to Perdikkas the
> > Makedonians inhabited the area around the Pierian Mountains.
> > Euboean, Argolid, and Athenian colonies around the mouth of the
>>>Axios River from 750 bc on account for talk of Greeks in "Macedon".
You are entierly confusing Lower Macedonia and Upper Macedonia!
Those Macedonian tribes in Upper Macedonia are those referred to
as Makednon/Dorians by Herodotos.
> > > In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
> > > Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
> > > League,
> > 200 bc is too late,
> Do you want Herodotos' much earlier data stating that the Macedonians
> and Dorians are the Hellenic people and the Athenians and Ionians
> are not originally Greek people? He is much much, much earlier
> than Demosthenes and Isocrates political statements, isn't he?
"No he actually isn't. Only about fifty years prior."
HERODOTOS (ca. 490 B.C. - 424 B.C.)
Demosthenes (384 B.C - 322 B.C)
On this one, I'll give you the point that it's not 'much, much, much'
but only 'much'. However, point is you wanted to disregard 200bc
but Herodotos is very much earlier than that and a good deal earlier
than Isocrates and Demosthenes.....and I am *sure* you noticed
that both the later were associated with 'Ionian' Greeks whereas
Herodotos was associated with Dorian Greeks...and it was *he*
that identified the Macedonians as actual Hellenes associated with
Dorian Greeks.
> >by that time the "Macedonian Kingdom" included
> > the entire Chalcidice, Methone, and Pydna; all areas settled by
> > Greeks from Hellas. And Philip V, or his delegate, is very much
> > playing at politics. Of course he's going to say the Romans are the
> > outsiders. He knew that once the Romans were in Hellas, Macedonian
> > influence over Hellas would pretty much be ended.
> However, Oscar, realated to the statement, it is speaking of an ethnic
> identity from antiquity:
"It is a Macedonian King via his ambassador trying to keep the Romans out
of the region and keep Macedonia supreme. It's politics in
antiquity."
Nevertheless, you see the Macedonians fronting up as Greeks to these
other Greek tribes, and in front of barbarians...the Romans...and no one
is shown to disagree regarding the Greek ethnicity of the Macedonian
Greeks.
> "The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are
> divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
> to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
> will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
> reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
> and nature is eternal. "
> And, Oscar, in the Macedonian extremis of the time the statement
> is quite racist in tone;
"That's nice, but I didn't post that quote, you did."
I am not here to defend anything but the truth, Oscar. That point is
that it is, in the Macedonian extremis, racist *Greek*.
> > > Since you somehow believed that, you are way out of track on the
> > > actual situation. Rather than give you a complete education on
>>>>Greece (we've been done this road before) read this from Bury:
> > (snip)
> > What Bury says is his own viewpoint.
> Of course it is opinion. It is also correct to anyone who is a real
> scholar of ancient Greece.
Bury is a real dead scholar. He was writing in 1913. Use something a bit
more modern next time.
As I noted above....that is a stupid remark, Oscar.
> >And the differance is that unlike previous hegemonies of various
> >city-states/leagues, Macedonia ushered in absolutism. Philip granted
> >marginal autonomy, but with his assassinated and revolt of Hellas,
> >all that ended. Bury is right in that Chaeronea isn't the
> >signifigant battle upon which Greek liberty perished, it was at the
>>battles
> >three years later in 335 bc.
> You are very incorrect. The cities were left to their own devices
> and foreign policy was simply curtailed.
"Thebes was burnt to the ground and it's citizens enslaved."
So....have you read what the Athenians did in their Empire previous
to this time....have you read what the Thebans wanted the Spartans
to do to the Athenians when the Spatans were the victors in Greece
....no, of course you haven't, dilletante!
In Greek history we often come across wars between Greeks:
Spartans against Messenians, Argeioi against Spartans, Spartans
against Tegheate, Athenians and their allies against Spartans and
their allies, Athenians against Meghareis, Corinthians against Meghareis,
Aetolians against Focaeis, Boeoteans against Thessalians, Achaeoi
and Macedonians against Aetolians etc. The Spartan Lyssander
destroyed Athens, the Athenians destroyed Melos and the Thebans
the city of Plateae etc!
"And when Alexander went off to fight in Persia, a Makedonian
garrison under the command of Antipater, was left in charge
of Greece and he crushed Sparta"
I suppose you feel he should have let the Spartans crush the
Macedonians???
"and forced it under Macedonian control and replaced Athens's
government with a ne one that caused Demosthenes to commit
suicide."
What B/S.....the Spartans wanted to do that exact thing to the
Athenians themselves at an earlier period.....but you wouldn't
know anything about that, right? (Unless you saw my earlier post
on it).
> You are an extremist and have no business making brassy
> statements about Greek history when you have so little
> information or understanding of it.
"You're gazing into the water again I see. Try not to bark now.."
Oscar....if you have any shame in you, confront all this stupidity you
wrote here, decide to cease being a troll, and try to gain as much
education as you can by reading my future posts on these matters.
> > > You are ignoring that it is _historians_ that time and again in
>>>>the ancient world claim that the Macedonians were Greeks.
> > Arrian, Plutarch,Diodorus, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos to name
> > a few do not in the least.
> They absolutely do, why are you lying?
Don't have the others handy atm but:
"The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry between the
Greeks and Macedonians."
- Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander
(Book II)"
You are trolling again, Oscar.....you have been corrected on that
numerous times!
The term "racial" springs from a bad translation of the original ancient
Greek. The word "phyle" is used. In ancient Greek, "phyle" is the
word for "tribe" not race.
And I believe a correct translation could still say *old* tribal rivalry
(there is some dispute on the 'old'), and if so Arrian is using
tribal as Makednon/Dorian/Spartan versus Greek/Ionian/Athenian
*because* there was no *old* tribal rivalry between the Macedonian
Greeks and the general City State Greeks.....in fact quite the *opposite*.
Besides which, Oscar, how much integrity do you have to imply that
Arrian believed that the ancient Macedonians weren't Greek? You
know very well that Arrian sees the Macedonians as Greeks! Here
is but one example shown to you numerous times:
After the battle of Issus (333 BC) Darius asked to negotiate with
Alexander. Alexander answered with the following words (Arrian B 14,4):
"When they invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece, your ancestors
harmed us, although we had not harmed them ever before. I, therefore,
after becoming the leader of all Greeks and because I wished to punish the
Persians, invaded Asia, because it is you who started this harted"
> > While Nearchus, Alexander's own Admiral, has very little to say
> > on the subject.
> _All_ the ancient historians in one way or another identify the
> Macedonians as Greeks.
> For you to say otherwise is simply an aspect of your revisionism and bias.
"For you to make such a sweeping statement when you know you haven't
read all the ancient historians,..."
You will have to search hi and low, Oscar, to find anyone who has
covered as much ground as I have, not to mention in exacting detail.
"...not even the most diligent of scholars have in full, is simple
grandstanding nonsense and doesn't further any academic discussion."
OK, Oscar, I left out a few words (it was implied). Here:
_All_ the ancient historians, from whom we have extant readable texts,
who mention the Macedonians, in one way or another identify the
Macedonians as Greeks.
From: Spirit of truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
[DEL your nonsense on the Yugoslavia situation...the evidence that
Nato had forced Yugoslavia into a capitulation on autonomy *before*
the bombing started was right in front of you. Your naivete in politics
is a sight to behold!]
Dr. No
June R Harton wrote:
>
> First, Oscar, a comment re the following statement by you:
>
> Oscar wrote
> > > > As for all the other quotes, I answered them before ....
>
> Oscar, this was your statement re my other quotes:
>
> "Your quotes include ones from Wilcken in 1967, Hamilton in '73, Fox
> in '74, Stoneman in '77, and the Ancient Roman historian Quintus
> Curtius Rufus. That isn't too current. Even Hammond's "Macedonian
> State" is eleven years old.."
>
> Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is complete
> foolishness to make a statement like that unless current knowledge
> has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered evidence that
> did not exist at the time of writing of these scholars. That is not
> the case in this instance
In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort, and via
postings has shown to be not fully versed in the writings of said
historians and archaeologists. And as such, wouldn't know if
there was conclusive evidence or not since he's not part of
the academic community by any means.
As for conclusive proof, that's really what this debate/argument,
least my involment in it, has always been about. There isn't
conclusive proof that Ancient Macedonians=Greeks ethnicwise, no matter
how much Harton twists and turns little snipets from books he's never
read in full.
In any event, the whole idea of any modern nation claiming ancient
historical figures as thier own based on ancient ethnicities is a silly
practice that no historian would agree with. If "June" wants to keep
re-arguing with the same little snipets over and over, keep it on
soc.culture.greek and soc.culture.macedonian, but keep it out of
soc.history.ancient because the debates really aren't about history
but nationalism.
To quote A. B. Bosworth:
"I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
- "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
--Oscar Schlaf--
"Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant"
PS - Since deja.com is down due to a buy-out, I'm using my regular
newserver, which probably means a new batch of spam mail.
June R Harton
"Dr. No" Oscar the consumate ass wrote
> June R Harton wrote:
> > First, Oscar, a comment re the following statement by you:
> > Oscar wrote
> > > > > As for all the other quotes, I answered them before ....
> > Oscar, this was your statement re my other quotes:
> > "Your quotes include ones from Wilcken in 1967, Hamilton in '73, Fox
> > in '74, Stoneman in '77, and the Ancient Roman historian Quintus
> > Curtius Rufus. That isn't too current. Even Hammond's "Macedonian
> > State" is eleven years old.."
> > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is complete
> > foolishness to make a statement like that unless current knowledge
> > has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered evidence that
> > did not exist at the time of writing of these scholars. That is not
> > the case in this instance
> In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
False. Rest of your lies deleted, troll.
:)
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Dr. No
June R Harton wrote:
>
> > > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is
> > > complete foolishness to make a statement like that unless current > > > knowledge has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered
> > > evidence that did not exist at the time of writing of these
> > > scholars. That is not the case in this instance
> > In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> > acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
>
> False. Rest of your lies deleted, troll.
Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta vlepomai
piou kathara...
--Oscar Schlaf--
"Whenever a theory appears to you as the only
possible one, take this as a sign that you have
neither understood the theory nor the problem
which it was intended to solve."
- Karl Popper
June R Harton
Oscar, grow up.
Steve T
"Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3A8CFE21...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> June R Harton wrote:
> >
>
> > > > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is
> > > > complete foolishness to make a statement like that unless current >
> > knowledge has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered
> > > > evidence that did not exist at the time of writing of these
> > > > scholars. That is not the case in this instance
> > > In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> > > acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
> >
> > False. Rest of your lies deleted, troll.
>
> Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta vlepomai
> piou kathara...
Alla pios xenos kitazei tin Elliniki zoi mai Ellinika matia;
Dr. No
June R Harton wrote:
>
> Oscar, grow up.
My previous follow-up was a rather adult response. But I guess it was
Greek to you..
June R Harton
No, Oscar...stupidity like this is childish nonsense when you don't face
up to the realities posted:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.history.ancient,soc.culture.greek
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: Realtime Macedonians - Hammond's history, texts,
trivia, trolls, and truth
> > > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is
> > > complete foolishness to make a statement like that unless current
>>>>knowledge has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered
> > > evidence that did not exist at the time of writing of these
> > > scholars. That is not the case in this instance
> > In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> > acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
Dr. No
June R Harton wrote:
>
> "Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I wrote
> > June R Harton wrote:
> > > Oscar, grow up.
> > My previous follow-up was a rather adult response. But I guess it > > was Greek to you..
>
> No, Oscar...stupidity like this is childish nonsense when you don't
> face up to the realities posted:
Here's some realities:
"June" doesn't speak Greek, ancient or modern.
"June" doesn't live in Greece (nor Bulgaria, FYROM, or Cyprus)
"June" doesn't have any archaeological training.
"June" doesn't have any historical training.
"June" doesn't ever use his/her real name.
(Got something to hide perhaps?)
"June" has never explained why the ancient ethnicity of Alexander
should somehow matter to modern nationalities. (Especially to an
American such as himself)
"I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
- Bosworth "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
Voyager
Go sell some ice cream.
James Bond
Marcello Fabretti
General Dimitris Katelaris, reprinted in the "Nova Makedonija", Skopje 15
May 1992.
"The efforts of the people of Skopje to gain Macedonian indipendence must be
blocked by all possible means. The best ways are:
-- To prohibit the use of the Macedonian language and for Macedonians to
move to other parts of Greece and be replaced by Greeks, thus eliminating
the 'Macededonia question'.
-- To prohibit the return of Macedonians who have escaped and lived
elsewhere, so that not a single Macedonian will remain in the northern part
of Greece, and to block any type of cultural and linguistic propaganda
coming from Skopje to that part of Greece.
-- To set up special organisations under the supervision of the Ministry of
Internal Affairs and thus block the spread of Macedonianism in northern
Greece.
-- To employ individuals who do not speak Macedonian.
-- To encourage those who are employed with free housing, recreation and
other state benefits.
-- To promote Greek cultural societies and expand them; to publish books and
pamphlets to promote the concept that, abroad, Agean Macedonia will be
considered Greek, thus deleting the word "Macedonia".
-- To cause various difficulties for students from Greece studying in Skopje
to prevent them from pursuing their studies (deferment [of compulsory
military service] denied and so forth).
-- To encourage young people everywhere to rpomote the Greek idea and, if
necessary, to persuade the people, also with the help of money, that neither
the Macedonian language nor the Macedonians exist.
-- To move immediately to the southern part of Greece all employed
individuals in Lerin [Florina] who speak Macedonian.
-- To give service benefits and promotions to soldiers who marry Macedonian
women and make them adopt Greek customs.
-- To industrialise the land with a view to full employment for the Greeks
and the development of high standards, thus blocking the spread of
propaganda coming from Skopje and neutralising the Macedonians."
Kind of like ethnic cleansing isn't it.....?
Marcello
June R Harton
of a troll?
I wrote
> > No, Oscar...stupidity like this is childish nonsense when you don't
> > face up to the realities posted:
> Here's some realities:
> "June" doesn't speak Greek, ancient or modern.
> "June" doesn't live in Greece (nor Bulgaria, FYROM, or Cyprus)
> "June" doesn't have any archaeological training.
> "June" doesn't have any historical training.
> "June" doesn't ever use his/her real name.
> (Got something to hide perhaps?)
> "June" has never explained why the ancient ethnicity of Alexander
> should somehow matter to modern nationalities. (Especially to an
> American such as himself)
> "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
> linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
> outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
> states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
> - Bosworth "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
> --Oscar Schlaf--
> "Whenever a theory appears to you as the only
> possible one, take this as a sign that you have
> neither understood the theory nor the problem
> which it was intended to solve."
> - Karl Popper
As far as Bosworth, folks, you see he is trying to mislead you all again.
note....that Oscar is this much of an ass should make you very wary
of anything he has ever posted or will post.
June R Harton
Publishing lies, Fabretti, passed onto you by liars only
makes you an accomplice.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Voyager
http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/PageData/list_of_inscriptions.htm
http://www.ancientgreece.com/
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/06/en/politics/top/top000.html
http://www.macedonia.com/greek/
http://cal044202.student.utwente.nl/~marsares/history/index.html
MACEDONIA MEANS GREECE
Well again !!!!!!!!!!!
I think I have to make a history lesson which is part of
every good ELEMENTARY school around the world !!!!!
When we are talking about Macedonians we are talking
about Greek people and the history of them starts the 6th
again the 6th century BEFORE Christ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Macedonians were Dorians as the Spartans were.
Macedon it's a Greek name and it means tall-man.
They were speaking Greek, having Greek education Greek
religion, Greek costumes, Greek names, and they were the
part of the Greeks who achieve to unified all the Greeks together.
Also a lot's of the greatest minds of the antiquity expect the
political and military leaders were Macedonians.like the
Aristotel and many-many others.
Alexander and Aristotel were THE Greeks as All the Macedonians
of course. If you want more just read the Aristotel.
At the Byzantine times the greatest and longest dynasty of
emperors were the Macedonian dynasty, they also were Greeks
them language was the Greek etc.
The people you call "Macedonians" are SLAVS and the Slavs
came to the Balkan's region at the 7th century AFTER Christ !!!!
Some of the emperors of the Macedonian dynasty defend the
the Greek empire of the middle ages (Byzantine) in many wars
against the Slavs who were trying to invade into it.
Now we learn that Slavs can't be Macedonians for all these reasons
above.
One more time in summary.
1) Macedonians history starts at the 6th century BEFORE Christ.
2) So called Macedonians(Slavs)history starts at 7th century
AFTER Christ. 1100 years of distance !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Macedonians language was always the GREEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
4) So called Macedonians language is Slavonic very similar to
Bulgarian language.
Now about the latest history.
The Republic of Macedonia was a Tito's creation and it had to
do with his plans to come down to the Aegean sea.
Tito name this part of the formal Yugoslavia as Macedonia after
the second world war for this reason.
The name of this country before that was Bardarska Banovina.
Of course Titto change everything since then and he started teaching
the kids of this country that they come from Alexander the Great
and they are the great Macedonians for the reason above.
After the fall of the communism in Europe the Americans having
many interests and plants for the region pushed things for the
independence of all the formal Yugoslavia federal countries.
They used Macedonia as a tool to blackmail Greece and to
achieve to push Greece to give them the things they wanted
the way they wanted.
Like the issue of the new NATO military bases in Greece the
oils of the Aegean sea, and of course the silence and cooperation
of Greece during the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, which was the
major targets of the USA in it's effort to put it's foots into the Balkans.
There was even CIA agents around this area those years who trying
to find very poor people and they offered them 10000$ to each
person to sign that they are not Greeks but........."Macedonians".:-)))))
The....."Agency" !!!!!
The operation of the CIA to find in northern Greece co-called Macedonians
(Slavs) started at Jen 1994 and the head was the vice-consul of the
American consulate of Thesaloniki David Shuler.
David Shuler except of a vice-consul he was also a CIA official with
specialty in the destabilization of countries and regimes.
Of course this operation was under the knowledge and the protection
of the consul Mrs Myriam Hughes and the ambassador of the American
Embassy of Athens Thomas Nils.
At January 1994 David Shuler met at the only cafe of a small village
outside Florina (Meliti) some Slavs and give them 100000$ and orders
to work on this project finding "Macedonians" (Slavs) in Greece.
Those persons were P.Voscou, Z.Bulef, I. Pasov, D.Dumutriou.
Those 100000$ was the reward of these 4 persons for their work on
this operation.
After this Shuler and his assistants traveled all around Northern Greece
and they found some people (old the most of them and, very poor, and
with less of without education at all), and he persuade them that some
of their grandfathers were "Macedonian" :-))))) giving them 10000$
He give them to sing a paper in Greek and in English which the most of
them were unable to read.
He took all these papers and he send it to the State Department.
The Greek authorities used to follow all the actions of Shuler's team, from
the beginning until the end, but they didn't arrested him for obvious
reasons.
Shuler also after this job he worked in Thrace and he did terrible things
there.
Some time and when Shulers activities became to extraordinary, and
very dangerous, the Greek government call the consul Hughes and ask her
to stop these activities of Shuler.
M.Hughes answer that Shuler is a young man and he has no experience
and he did some bad and wrong things etc.
You know the usual bullshit.
Now about the future
If you are watching the news you should know that after the end of the
war in Kosovo Greece buy everything inside F.Y.R.O.M. even the
central bank of this country, of course under the oversight of the
Americans.
I'm sure that there will be absolutely no problem between the
Greece and the F.Y.R.O.M and i think that the people of this
country are smart enough to understand that Greece is the best
ally for them as Greece never thread them.
On the contrary Albanians and Bulgars used to thread them a lot.
There's no hard feelings about the people of FYROM in Greece
and i think that they are starting to understand that all these are some
of the idiotic things Titto and some stupid nationalists put them in
the head.
There's still some people like this and they used to say this stupid
things which are ridiculous, and that's a problem but i think it will
not be a serious one, i don't think that they are SO stupid !!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure that the people and the politicians of FYROM knows that,
so the future will be excellent for both sides.
Balkans need the peace and i'm sure that's what the Fyromian
people need and want.
Voyager.
I feel pity sometimes, for the people who
read one or more newspapers, and they think
that they know what really happens in the world.
Thomas Jefferson
Former U.S. President.
Friendly
Voyager.
Steve T
What a tangled web we weave.
Please explain why you requested a translation of something I posted in
Greek(lish) and masqueraded as June R Harton (a.k.a Spirit).
Who helped you type (quite poorly I might add) that bit of Greek?
Why do you need a translation of my Greek(lish) while at the same time
posting some of your own?
How many personas do you have?
You are not to be trusted at all.
BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur who
frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
Very curious indeed!!
Here is the email I received (including my reply)
----- Original Message -----
From: "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net>
To: "Steve T" <sta...@goconnect.net>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: Realtime Macedonians - Hammond's history, texts, trivia,
trolls, and truth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve T" <sta...@goconnect.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.history.ancient,soc.culture.greek
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 5:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Realtime Macedonians - Hammond's history, texts, trivia,
> trolls, and truth
>
>
> >
> > "Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3A8CFE21...@hotmail.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > June R Harton wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is
> > > > > > complete foolishness to make a statement like that unless
current
> >
> > > > knowledge has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered
> > > > > > evidence that did not exist at the time of writing of these
> > > > > > scholars. That is not the case in this instance
> > > > > In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> > > > > acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
> > > >
> > > > False. Rest of your lies deleted, troll.
> > >
> > > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta
vlepomai
> > > piou kathara...
Translation : We must occasionaly view life through another's eyes. Then we
see things more clearly.
> >
> > Alla pios xenos kitazei tin Elliniki zoi mai Ellinika matia;
Translation : But which foreigner views Greek life through Greek eyes?
Steve T.
>
>
> Steve, translate for me please.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Spirit
>
>
Dr. No
Steve T wrote:
>
> My, my Dr No(brains).
> What a tangled web we weave.
> Please explain why you requested a translation of something I posted
> in Greek(lish)
Sorry but I didn't request any translation of anything you posted.
> and masqueraded as June R Harton (a.k.a Spirit).
That's actually "June" e-mailing you, no masquerade. Look at the e-mail
headers.
> Who helped you type (quite poorly I might add) that bit of Greek?
> Why do you need a translation of my Greek(lish) while at the same time
> posting some of your own?
You're an idiot. I didn't ask for any translation. Malakas Harton
e-mailed you not me, you know the fellow who claims to know so much
about Greece..
> How many personas do you have?
> You are not to be trusted at all.
In the time I've been on usenet I've only posted via three e-mail
accounts. I switched recently from deja.com because it got bought out by
google, which currently has posting disabled, which millions of people
can easily confirm for you..
> BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur
> who frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
> Very curious indeed!!
Your reasoning skills is reminiscent of a rock.
> Here is the email I received (including my reply)
Thanks for proving that Harton doesn't know any Greek.
Dr. No
June R Harton wrote:
>
> Oscar wrote nonsense and lies...but what can one expect
> of a troll?
A troll would be a person who posts and cross-posts to a soc.history
group, a debate that is very political in nature, while at the same time
ignoring what historians have said about that very political debate.
"I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
- Bosworth "Myth Of The Magus: The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
"Harton" is the type of people Bosworth is refering to when he
talks about prejudice and dogma doing duty for rational thought..
Voyager
June R Harton
> A troll would be a person who posts and cross-posts to a soc.history
> group, a debate that is very political in nature, while at the same time
> ignoring what historians have said about that very political debate.
> "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
> linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
> outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
> states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
> - Bosworth "Myth Of The Magus: The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
Continued B/S from Oscar, folks!
As you have seen,
"Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon, concentrating
power in his own hands and delegating wealth and office to his companions.
In nationality the Companions remained overwhemingly Hellenic."
A.B. Bosworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, Canto Edition,
1998
The man says it very clearly folks.
June R Harton
> Steve T wrote:
> > My, my Dr No(brains).
> > What a tangled web we weave.
> > Please explain why you requested a translation of something I posted
> > in Greek(lish)
> Sorry but I didn't request any translation of anything you posted.
> > Why do you need a translation of my Greek(lish) while at the same time
> > posting some of your own?
> You're an idiot. I didn't ask for any translation.
Spirit
> e-mailed you not me
Yes, for once Oscar got something right, folks! I was checking
on my understanding of the complete meaning.
G Schneider
"Dr. No" wrote:
>
>
> Here's some realities:
>
> "June" doesn't speak Greek, ancient or modern.
>
> "June" doesn't live in Greece (nor Bulgaria, FYROM, or Cyprus)
>
> "June" doesn't have any archaeological training.
>
> "June" doesn't have any historical training.
>
> "June" doesn't ever use his/her real name.
> (Got something to hide perhaps?)
well, "June" is a guy. As far as I know, June Harton is the name of a medical center in
Tennessee. Of course, our boy is pisting out of splitrock net in Texas. Go figure
G Schneider
Since the Junebugger reads no Greek or slavic language, he is consistently
trolling for translations. Why would you think that the post was not from him?
Galina
June R Harton
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/mapSeq_Map01.html
And to the _north_ of Macedonia, the ancient Fyromland area:
Map from "Report of the International Commission To Inquire
into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars" 1914.
Fyrom area current:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference/JPEG%20versions/802689.jpg
June R Harton
Here, Gail, you can learn something besides spamming:
First, Oscar, a comment re the following statement by you:
Oscar wrote
> > > As for all the other quotes, I answered them before ....
Oscar, this was your statement re my other quotes:
"Your quotes include ones from Wilcken in 1967, Hamilton in '73, Fox in
'74, Stoneman in '77, and the Ancient Roman historian Quintus Curtius
Rufus. That isn't too current. Even Hammond's "Macedonian State" is
eleven years old.."
Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is complete
foolishness to make a statement like that unless current knowledge
has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered evidence that
did not exist at the time of writing of these scholars. That is not the
For fair use only:
That's the point.
:)
You were saying, Oscar?
hahahahahahahahaha
You said:
[2.99.1]
[2.99.2]
[2.99.3]
[2.99.4]
[2.99.5]
[2.99.6]
From: Spirit of truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Schlau
June R Harton wrote:
>
> Here, Gail, you can learn something besides spamming:
>
Yes Malakas "Harton" can rip quotes from other peoples posts and then
apply that "Harton" logic to them, honed on years of all that academic
life in Texas. He's almost as bright as that other Texas intellectual
George W. Bush.
Myceanae, Troy, and Knossos appear in myths, their appearance in of
itself isn't used as a proof as you are doing with Hesiod.
>
> > > There was no person named "Macedon" any more then there was a
> > > person named "Shem" so who they were suppose to be related to has
> > > no bearing on actual history or lingusitics...
> > Listen to Bury, and use some intelligence for a change:
> > "The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
> > traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to
> > testify."
> > John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
> > Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
>
> " 1913? Don't you think something more then eighty years old is a bit out
> of date? Might as well drag out Droysen from 1892 while you're at it."
>
> It is incredible that you can even get that idiotic statement 'down
> on paper', Oscar! J.B. Bury was a regius professor and a fellow
> of King's College in the University of Cambridge.
And he was writing in 1913.
> You are asking folks to compare the half-baked academia of Borza
> rife with faulty logic and omitted data to the impeccable scholars
> of the past.
You are asking people to accept woefully outdated material, which was
presented as Bury's personal opinion in any event, based soley on the
the percieved reputation the college Bury taught at and attended. That's
tanamount to someone saying "I went to Harvard" as the reason as to
why we should believe him. (Should I use my college credentials and
your lack of them as proof of something Harton?)
AAlso it's really hard to take talk of reputations seriously with
someone who won't even reveal his/her own name "June". What sort
of reputation is that?
> Where is your head, man?! They knew these works
> backwards, and were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and
> Latin in their halloed halls of learning.
Yes and some of these same fellows thought it an excellent idea to rip
the Elgin marbles from thier place in Greece and make off with them
to the UK and conducted "careful" archaeological "digs" with pick axes.
O fortunates nimium, sua si bona norint agricolas....
> As for the Borza piece, as Anastassios (to save time) recently posted,
> "It has been pointed time and time again that Borza prefaces this as
> an extreme position poised to "generate discussion". He admits that
> the Macedonians, whoever they were (and he has no suggestions)
> were "fully hellenized" by the time we meet them in "history books".
> Come on, folks...this was antiquity!!! How did the Macedonians become
> "hellenized" in the 5th century?
Same way the Lydians, Illyrians, Thracians, and Romans did....
> > > > The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the
> > > > sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples
> > > > of their province in Europe, and one of them was the
> > > > 'yauna takabara,' which meant the 'Greeks wearing the hat.'
> > > > [27] There were Greeks in Greek city-states here
> > > > and there in the province, but they were of various origins
> > > > and not distinguished by a common hat, the 'kausia.'
> > > > We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to
> > > > be speakers of Greek.
> > >The Makedonians weren't much beyond the Pierian Mountains at the
> > > time
> > Rubbish. Oscar, why do you pretend to know about Greek history?
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.
> 0126
> > &layout=&loc=5.17
> > For fair use only
> > XVII. [2]
> > Now there is a very straight way from the Prasiad lake to Macedonia.
> > First there is near the lake that mine from which Alexander later
> > drew a daily revenue of a talent of silver, and when a person
> > has passed the mine, he need only cross the mountain called
> > Dysorum2 to be in Macedonia.
>
> "The Dysorum mountain range isn't the Pierian,.."
>
>
> ".. and Herodotus is talking about the time of Alexander (III) more
> then three hundred years after the reign of Perdikkas I who I was
> talking about..."
>
> Well, Oscar, I have seen Herodotos called many things but never
> prescient!
>
> HERODOTOS (ca. 490 B.C. - 424 B.C.)
>
> Alexander I (ca. 495 B. C. - 450 /440 B.C.)
>
> Alexander III (336 B. C. - 145 B.C.)
>
> You were saying, Oscar?
I was saying:
"Herodotus is talking about the time of Alexander (III) more then
three hundred years after the reign of Perdikkas I who I was talking
about..."
Perdikkas I isn't Alexander I....
> > >and Thracians inhabited much of what would become the kingdom of
> > > Makedonia and they wore hats.
> > No they didn't. And they were not "yauna"...a word descriptive of
> > Greeks.
>
> > > "Yauna means: "people by the sea". The Persians called the Hebrews > > > & Phillistines the Ba yauna...(Yewanim in Hebrew). That mean the
> > > Jews are Greeks too? And Yauna is also a modern Persian last
> > > name."
>
> Are you trying to be funny, Oscar? Yauna is not even a discussible
> > issue. That was the Persian name for the Ionian Greeks. PERIOD.
If not knowing Greek but feeling assinine to comment about it wasn't
enough, now "Harton" wants to start talking about Persian(ancient
Persian at that)? Mardekeh.....
(snip of the rest of the sillyness)
Your faults "Harton" are the same faults as everyone with very
political motives, including many modern people in FYROM, have when they
attempt to use history as a political tool. You post alot of snipets
from sources you've never read in full yourself and you have no direct
interest or knowledge in history except in how it relates to your
own political aims.
--Oscar Schlaf--
Steve T
(though I could've sworn I checked the properties of the email).
"Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3A91783C...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Steve T wrote:
> >
> > My, my Dr No(brains).
> > What a tangled web we weave.
> > Please explain why you requested a translation of something I posted
> > in Greek(lish)
>
> Sorry but I didn't request any translation of anything you posted.
Tell me, did you post that Greek pearl of wisdom using your own knowledge of
Greek, or did you "phone a friend"?
>
>
> > and masqueraded as June R Harton (a.k.a Spirit).
>
> That's actually "June" e-mailing you, no masquerade. Look at the e-mail
> headers.
>
>
> > Who helped you type (quite poorly I might add) that bit of Greek?
So, who helped you?
It certainly wasn't a Greek.
> > Why do you need a translation of my Greek(lish) while at the same time
> > posting some of your own?
>
> You're an idiot. I didn't ask for any translation. Malakas Harton
> e-mailed you not me, you know the fellow who claims to know so much
> about Greece..
And you're a provocateur, plain and simple.
>
>
> > How many personas do you have?
> > You are not to be trusted at all.
>
> In the time I've been on usenet I've only posted via three e-mail
> accounts. I switched recently from deja.com because it got bought out by
> google, which currently has posting disabled, which millions of people
> can easily confirm for you..
>
> > BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur
> > who frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
> > Very curious indeed!!
>
> Your reasoning skills is reminiscent of a rock.
I repeat, your questionable understanding and expression of Greek is
reminiscent of a certain Turkish troublemaker.
Hmmmmm.
Schlau
Besides not understanding Greek, you apparently don't understand
English too well either. "Hellenic" in the historical sense means
anyone heavily influenced by Greek culture. The Illyrians, Lydians,
Thracians, and Romans are called Hellenic by most classicists,
historians, and archaeologists as well.
It's not a confirmation of Greek ethnicity, which didn't matter to
most in the ancient world, nor of language.
Might want to stop digging that hole "Harton"......
--Oscar Schlaf--
Steve T
>
>
> June R Harton wrote:
> >
> > Oscar wrote nonsense and lies...but what can one expect
> > of a troll?
>
> A troll would be a person who posts and cross-posts to a soc.history
> group, a debate that is very political in nature, while at the same time
> ignoring what historians have said about that very political debate.
>
> "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the
> linguistic status of ancient Macedonians. It has little significance
> outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan
> states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought"
> - Bosworth "Myth Of The Magus: The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
Very slick.
Now that's rock solid evidence if ever I saw it.
How can we ignore this overwhelming proof, that Bosworth stated that he
refuses to adopt any position whatsoever, on the premise that it's
insignificant?
Why is it insignificant?
Ancient and modern Greeks speak(and spoke) an almost identical language to
that of the ancient Macedonians, others don't.
How complicated is that?
Now let's all go outside and sit on the fence.
Keep 'em coming.
:-)
Steve T
"Schlau" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3A925C98...@hotmail.com...
Now that's tantamount to saying that Einstein's theories on relativity are
somehow wrong because he formulated them at about the same time.
Do you expect us to believe that these people weren't as accomplished as
your sources simply because they lived "before your time"?
Very weak.
>
>
> > You are asking folks to compare the half-baked academia of Borza
> > rife with faulty logic and omitted data to the impeccable scholars
> > of the past.
>
> You are asking people to accept woefully outdated material, which was
> presented as Bury's personal opinion in any event, based soley on the
> the percieved reputation the college Bury taught at and attended. That's
> tanamount to someone saying "I went to Harvard" as the reason as to
> why we should believe him. (Should I use my college credentials and
> your lack of them as proof of something Harton?)
> AAlso it's really hard to take talk of reputations seriously with
> someone who won't even reveal his/her own name "June". What sort
> of reputation is that?
>
>
> > Where is your head, man?! They knew these works
> > backwards, and were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and
> > Latin in their halloed halls of learning.
>
> Yes and some of these same fellows thought it an excellent idea to rip
> the Elgin marbles from thier place in Greece and make off with them
> to the UK and conducted "careful" archaeological "digs" with pick axes.
> O fortunates nimium, sua si bona norint agricolas....
Ah. The last resort of the flummoxed scholar.
"I'll quote in Latin and dazzle them with my own brilliance."
Now that's quite a sweeping statement.
Who are you to comment on "Spirits" faults?
I think someone needs to get off their high horse and acknowledge the
egalitarian nature of the internet forum.
Do you expect him to post the texts in their entirety to prove that he has
read them?
From where I sit, it's your snippets versus his, and frankly his snippets
are a hell of a lot more convincing than yours.
Moreover, he posts detailed excerpts when necessary, but, as you can
appreciate, continually reposting long-winded excerpts that state his case
can lead to people labelling him a "copy and paste" man.
Well what do you know, you already have.
You're digging a sizeable hole of your own there, sport.
>
> --Oscar Schlaf--the mis-Hellene.
vasif@fisav
vlepomai
> > > piou kathara...
Translation : We must occasionally view life through another's eyes.
Then we
see things more clearly.
above was copied and pasted.... yes the translation is correct though
i would change 'another's eyes' to 'others' eyes' -- i.e. from a
different (non-greek) viewpoint. and surely then you will see things
more clearly.
it is never wise to view things from a narrow perspective of view.
widen your views and widen your horizons.
and when you say...
>BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur
>who frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
i take it you are referring to me, vasif@fisav..... in which case i
have to say that i am far from being a provocateur. after all it is
you who say and claim that turks can coexist with greeks in an
independent cyprus yet you cannot stomach the presence of one turk on
a greek newsgroup.
i must say it is some tolerance (!) you are exhibiting.... need i say
any more?
my response would be that you would do well to start seeing things
from a different point of view and not jump to the conclusion that if
the name of australia has any connections with ancient greek, then
australia must have been discovered by ancient greeks.
the autokinito is pure greek meaning self moving (auto-mobile) but it
definitely was not invented by ancient greeks. nor was the kinema (the
cinema).
you BF (bloody effing) greek nationalists are just as bad if not worse
that turkish BF nationalists. we'll have to put you all on a remote
island so you can sort each other out.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Steve T wrote in message <96rasu$meebi$1...@ID-70631.news.dfncis.de>...
Schlau
Steve T wrote:
>
> "Schlau" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3A925C98...@hotmail.com...
> >
> >
> > June R Harton wrote:
> > >
> > > Here, Gail, you can learn something besides spamming:
> > >
> >
> > Yes Malakas "Harton" can rip quotes from other peoples posts and then
> > apply that "Harton" logic to them, honed on years of all that academic
> > life in Texas. He's almost as bright as that other Texas intellectual
> > George W. Bush.
> >
> >
> > > Since you have brought it to the surface, however, let's have a
> > > look at it.
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > > > There was no person named "Macedon" any more then there was a
> > > > > person named "Shem" so who they were suppose to be related to > > > > > has no bearing on actual history or lingusitics...
> > > > Listen to Bury, and use some intelligence for a change:
> > > > "The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as
> > > > their traditions and the scanty remains of their language
> > > > combine to testify."
> > > > John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of
> > > > Alexander the Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
> > >
> > > " 1913? Don't you think something more then eighty years old is a > > > bit out of date? Might as well drag out Droysen from 1892 while > > > you're at it."
> > >
> > > It is incredible that you can even get that idiotic statement
> > > 'down on paper', Oscar! J.B. Bury was a regius professor and a
> > > fellow of King's College in the University of Cambridge.
> >
> > And he was writing in 1913.
>
> Now that's tantamount to saying that Einstein's theories on relativity > are somehow wrong because he formulated them at about the same time.
To some extent they were, see Steven Hawkings's work...
> Do you expect us to believe that these people weren't as accomplished > as your sources simply because they lived "before your time"?
If someone refered you to a book on auto mechanics written in 1913 and
suggested it was the same if not better then a book written on auto
mechanics written in 2000, you'd laugh in thier face.
Less rhetoric and more logic for you...
> >
> > > Where is your head, man?! They knew these works
> > > backwards, and were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and
> > > Latin in their halloed halls of learning.
> >
> > Yes and some of these same fellows thought it an excellent idea to > > rip the Elgin marbles from thier place in Greece and make off with
> > them to the UK and conducted "careful" archaeological "digs" with > > pick axes.
> > O fortunates nimium, sua si bona norint agricolas....
>
> Ah. The last resort of the flummoxed scholar.
> "I'll quote in Latin and dazzle them with my own brilliance."
I see no flummoxing and it was Harton that seemed to think Bury's
knowledge of latin and greek some sort of indication of the weight of
his opinion.
"were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and Latin in their halloed
halls of learning." I believe are Harton's exact words. Are we to take
it you don't agree with harton's opinion reguarding latin knowledge?
> >
> > > > >and Thracians inhabited much of what would become the kingdom of
> > > > > Makedonia and they wore hats.
> > > > No they didn't. And they were not "yauna"...a word descriptive of
> > > > Greeks.
> > >
> > > > > "Yauna means: "people by the sea". The Persians called the Hebrews >
> > > & Phillistines the Ba yauna...(Yewanim in Hebrew). That mean the
> > > > > Jews are Greeks too? And Yauna is also a modern Persian last
> > > > > name."
> > >
> > > Are you trying to be funny, Oscar? Yauna is not even a discussible
> > > > issue. That was the Persian name for the Ionian Greeks. PERIOD.
> >
> > If not knowing Greek but feeling assinine to comment about it wasn't
> > enough, now "Harton" wants to start talking about Persian(ancient
> > Persian at that)? Mardekeh.....
> >
> > (snip of the rest of the sillyness)
> >
> > Your faults "Harton" are the same faults as everyone with very
> > political motives, including many modern people in FYROM, have when they
> > attempt to use history as a political tool. You post alot of snipets
> > from sources you've never read in full yourself and you have no direct
> > interest or knowledge in history except in how it relates to your
> > own political aims.
> >
>
> Now that's quite a sweeping statement.
> Who are you to comment on "Spirits" faults?
I'll give you my credentials if you want them. "Harton" wont even give
you his real name....
> I think someone needs to get off their high horse and acknowledge the
> egalitarian nature of the internet forum.
Egalitarian implys equal, nothing equal about "Harton"'s "knowledge".
> From where I sit, it's your snippets versus his, and frankly his
> snippets are a hell of a lot more convincing than yours.
From were you sit you can't even tell the differance from Harton
e-mailing you asking for a translation and me e-mailing you,
And given the fact that you've conduct your self in a similar manner to
Harton on several occasions, (long winded postings of snippets), your
position is suspect. Like Milosevic saying Hussein is an ok guy..
--Oscar Schlaf--
Voyager
June R Harton
"Schlau" wrote
I wrote
> > "Alexander ruled the world as his father had ruled Macedon,
> > concentrating power in his own hands and delegating wealth
> > and office to his companions. In nationality the Companions
> > remained overwhemingly Hellenic."
> > A.B. Bosworth, "Conquest and Empire", Cambridge Univ. Press, Canto
> > Edition, 1998
> > The man says it very clearly folks.
>............. you apparently don't understand English too well either.
> "Hellenic" in the historical sense means anyone heavily influenced by
> Greek culture.
You are not simply a Troll, Oscar, you are an ignorant Troll.
Hellenic is Greek, hellenized is the adjective to describe what you
described. And the quote, Troll, said *nationality*.
June R Harton
This guy is not only a troll, he is imbecilic, folks!
Schlau wrote
> Yes Malakas "Harton" can rip quotes from other peoples posts and then
> apply that "Harton" logic to them, honed on years of all that academic
> life in Texas. He's almost as bright as that other Texas intellectual
> George W. Bush.
Stupid lie.
> > Hmmmm...there was no Mycenae,Troy, Knossos I suppose? Silly,
> > Oscar.
> Myceanae, Troy, and Knossos appear in myths, their appearance in of
> itself isn't used as a proof as you are doing with Hesiod.
Duh!
> > It is incredible that you can even get that idiotic statement 'down
> > on paper', Oscar! J.B. Bury was a regius professor and a fellow
> > of King's College in the University of Cambridge.
> And he was writing in 1913.
Duh!
> > You are asking folks to compare the half-baked academia of Borza
> > rife with faulty logic and omitted data to the impeccable scholars
> > of the past.
> You are asking people to accept woefully outdated material,
Duh! How the deuce would you know, Oscar, since it is you that
doesn't know a thing about what we are discussing?
> > As for the Borza piece, as Anastassios (to save time) recently posted,
> > "It has been pointed time and time again that Borza prefaces this as
> > an extreme position poised to "generate discussion". He admits that
> > the Macedonians, whoever they were (and he has no suggestions)
> > were "fully hellenized" by the time we meet them in "history books".
> > Come on, folks...this was antiquity!!! How did the Macedonians become
> > "hellenized" in the 5th century?
> Same way the Lydians, Illyrians, Thracians, and Romans did....
You are simple a disgusting liar, Oscar. There is no identification possible
between comparison of those peoples and the Macedonian Greeks.
As I said folks....an imbecile. Someone explain it to him.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> Perdikkas I isn't Alexander I....
Duh!
> > Are you trying to be funny, Oscar? Yauna is not even a discussible
> > > issue. That was the Persian name for the Ionian Greeks. PERIOD.
> If not knowing Greek but feeling assinine to comment about it wasn't
> enough, now "Harton" wants to start talking about Persian(ancient
> Persian at that)? Mardekeh.....
lelelelelelelelelele
> (snip of the rest of the sillyness)
> Your faults "Harton" are the same faults as everyone with very
> political motives, including many modern people in FYROM, have when they
> attempt to use history as a political tool. You post alot of snipets
> from sources you've never read in full yourself and you have no direct
> interest or knowledge in history except in how it relates to your
> own political aims.
Oscar, I am afraid you have shown your metal ....and it is indeed
a rusted bent nail.
patrick burke
That's a little specious don't you think? If I were fixing a car from
1913 then that would be the better choice. Cars have changed, whether the
Macedonians were greek certainly has not.
I am a little hesitant to jump in here, frankly because so many people
have an agenda here. My intrest is in history not the current squabbles of
modern nation states. But objectivly speaking the pro-greek crowd has IMO
made a better case. In sum the following points have been made in favor of
Greek Macedonians:
1) Macedonia is apparently a Greek name. How likely is it that non
Greek speakers would name their country in another language.
2) Evidence of another language is dubious. The references to
Macedonians being difficult to understand could be explained by their using
a very dialectic Greek. Against this we have the fact that all known
inscriptions are in Greek. Nothing in this hypothetical Macedonian speech.
3) the place names are in Greek.
4) the proper names are Greek.
5) Finally after Macedonia conquers the Eastern Mediterranean it is
Greek that becomes the language of the empire.
Against this evidence you have sited evidence that the Greeks of the
time did not think of Macedonians as Greek, which probably varied from place
to place and time to time. And that the Macedonians may not have thought of
themselves as Greek, see above note.
Even if both prove to be true, so what? People tend to divide themselves
in many ways, but a persons belief does not determine ethnicity. Their
language and culture does.
June R Harton
> > > You post alot of snipets
> > > from sources you've never read in full yourself and you have no direct
> > > interest or knowledge in history except in how it relates to your
> > > own political aims.
He wrote that re me....that is a false statement and the Troll, Oscar,
is trying to mislead you, folks.
> > Now that's quite a sweeping statement.
> > Who are you to comment on "Spirits" faults?
(I don't have any.)
:)
> Egalitarian implys equal, nothing equal about "Harton"'s "knowledge".
> > From where I sit, it's your snippets versus his, and frankly his
> > snippets are a hell of a lot more convincing than yours.
No, actually....it is trolling incorrect data, then followed by my truthful
data....and anyone who knows even a modicum of real ancient Greek
history can see that Oscar doesn't know what he is talking about.
Steve T
Ditto for you.
>
>
> > >
> > > > Where is your head, man?! They knew these works
> > > > backwards, and were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and
> > > > Latin in their halloed halls of learning.
> > >
> > > Yes and some of these same fellows thought it an excellent idea to >
> rip the Elgin marbles from thier place in Greece and make off with
> > > them to the UK and conducted "careful" archaeological "digs" with > >
pick axes.
> > > O fortunates nimium, sua si bona norint agricolas....
> >
> > Ah. The last resort of the flummoxed scholar.
> > "I'll quote in Latin and dazzle them with my own brilliance."
>
> I see no flummoxing and it was Harton that seemed to think Bury's
> knowledge of latin and greek some sort of indication of the weight of
> his opinion.
> "were fully conversant in Ancient Greek and Latin in their halloed
> halls of learning." I believe are Harton's exact words. Are we to take
> it you don't agree with harton's opinion reguarding latin knowledge?
Not at all, as you are well aware.
If you must quote Latin, at least be kind enough to transalte it for the
rest of us.
Or do you presume, from your lofty position, that we are all well versed in
Latin.
Time to get your head out of the clouds.
I don't blame him, given the sensitive nature of the subject matter.
People have, after all, died for less.
This is not a game.
It's all very well for you to pontificate to to us about our supposed lack
of objectivity, but you don't seem to realize exactly what's at stake.
For example, if Fyrom was to be called New Macedonia, how long do you
suppose it would be before they were simply referred to as Macedonians and
eventually associated with the ancient Macedonians, to which they have no
connection whatsoever, unlike the Greeks?
At the very least, modern Greeks speak the same language and maintain
similar customs to those of the ancient Macedonians.
Just as importantly, Greeks occupy the land of ancient Macedonia.
Something about "possesion being nine tenths of the law" immediately springs
to mind
Fyromians have nothing Macedonian about them.
Ask yourself this.
Why is it so important that Fyromians call themselves Macedonians?
Regardless of who the ancient Macedonians were, why are they so insistant on
using this name?
Suppose Canada were to rename their country Alaska tomorrow, do you think
the U.S.A would sit idly by and respect their right to name themselves
whatever they want?
Or would they assume that Canada had designs on American territory?
I think we both know the answer to that one.
That's what it's all about.
Give them the name today and tomorrow they'll want the heritage and
historical land of Macedonia, to which they have no historical claim, unlike
the Greeks, whether you like it or not.
To think otherwise is naive and unbefitting of someone of your
"credentials".
Whoever the ancient Macedonians were, they most certainly aren't in any way
related to the modern occupants of FYROM.
To date, all evidence points to them being of Greek origin, undeniably so.
So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
Who do you serve?
>
>
> > I think someone needs to get off their high horse and acknowledge the
> > egalitarian nature of the internet forum.
>
> Egalitarian implys equal, nothing equal about "Harton"'s "knowledge".
Nothing equal about your superior attitude.
>
>
> > From where I sit, it's your snippets versus his, and frankly his
> > snippets are a hell of a lot more convincing than yours.
>
> From were you sit you can't even tell the differance from Harton
> e-mailing you asking for a translation and me e-mailing you,
> And given the fact that you've conduct your self in a similar manner to
> Harton on several occasions, (long winded postings of snippets), your
> position is suspect. Like Milosevic saying Hussein is an ok guy..
On the contrary.
I've very seldom (if ever) posted anything over 5KB in size and the snippets
I do post are usually one sentence long, in the form of quotes.
Jumping to conclusions again, I see.
>
>
> --Oscar Schlaf--
Steve T
"vasif@fisav" <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m2Ak6.2860$Y43.6...@news3.cableinet.net...
> > > > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta
> vlepomai
> > > > piou kathara...
>
> Translation : We must occasionally view life through another's eyes.
> Then we
> see things more clearly.
>
> above was copied and pasted.... yes the translation is correct though
> i would change 'another's eyes' to 'others' eyes' -- i.e. from a
> different (non-greek) viewpoint. and surely then you will see things
> more clearly.
>
> it is never wise to view things from a narrow perspective of view.
> widen your views and widen your horizons.
>
> and when you say...
>
> >BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur
> >who frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
>
> i take it you are referring to me, vasif@fisav..... in which case i
> have to say that i am far from being a provocateur.
Come on, don't deny it.
You're a shit-stirrer, and when soeone doesn't engage you in dialogue
(Voyager) you resort to insults and profanities.
after all it is
> you who say and claim that turks can coexist with greeks in an
> independent cyprus yet you cannot stomach the presence of one turk on
> a greek newsgroup.
When, exactly, did I say that?
Are you sure you didn't dream it?
I thoroughly enjoy your posts, especially when you start swearing at and
insulting Voyager the way you do.
Amusing stuff !!
>
> i must say it is some tolerance (!) you are exhibiting.... need i say
> any more?
>
> my response would be that you would do well to start seeing things
> from a different point of view and not jump to the conclusion that if
> the name of australia has any connections with ancient greek, then
> australia must have been discovered by ancient greeks.
My only comment was that the name Australia is derived from an ancient Greek
word (or words) meaning southern land.
I at no time suggested that the ancient Greeks discovered Australia.
That's your conclusion, pal.(though i'd be happy to hear your theory)
The original name of Australia, when originally discovered, was
"Terra-Australis".
Now
TERRA = land
and I'm saying
AUSTRALIS = southern (Greek meaning probably passed on through Latin).
That's all.
>
> the autokinito is pure greek meaning self moving (auto-mobile) but it
> definitely was not invented by ancient greeks. nor was the kinema (the
> cinema).
>
> you BF (bloody effing) greek nationalists are just as bad if not worse
> that turkish BF nationalists. we'll have to put you all on a remote
> island so you can sort each other out.
I'm probably better described as a Hellenist, as it's the culture itself I'm
fanatical about.
I am, after all, an Australian citizen.
Ioannis Coritidis
Ο Steve T <sta...@goconnect.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
96jbe7$lauj3$1...@ID-70631.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Dr. No" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3A8CFE21...@hotmail.com...
> >
> >
> > June R Harton wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > > > Now, Oscar, in the area of the study of ancient history it is
> > > > > complete foolishness to make a statement like that unless current
>
> > > knowledge has provided some conclusive previously undiscovered
> > > > > evidence that did not exist at the time of writing of these
> > > > > scholars. That is not the case in this instance
> > > > In this instance, we have one "June Harton", who through own self
> > > > acknowledgment is not a historian nor archaeologist of any sort,
> > >
> > > False. Rest of your lies deleted, troll.
> >
> > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta vlepomai
> > piou kathara...
>
>
>
Kai poios xenos gnorizei orthografia?
(six mistakes in a sentence...)
Ioannis Coritidis
Ο Marcello Fabretti <marc...@iprimus.com.au> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
B6B40901.12E5%marc...@iprimus.com.au...
> Secret Document dated 16th of February 1981 and signed by Lieutenant-
> General Dimitris Katelaris, reprinted in the "Nova Makedonija", Skopje 15
> May 1992.
>
> "The efforts of the people of Skopje to gain Macedonian indipendence must
be
> blocked by all possible means. The best ways are:
>
> -- To prohibit the use of the Macedonian language and for Macedonians to
> move to other parts of Greece and be replaced by Greeks, thus eliminating
> the 'Macededonia question'.
>
> -- To prohibit the return of Macedonians who have escaped and lived
> elsewhere, so that not a single Macedonian will remain in the northern
part
> of Greece, and to block any type of cultural and linguistic propaganda
> coming from Skopje to that part of Greece.
>
> -- To set up special organisations under the supervision of the Ministry
of
> Internal Affairs and thus block the spread of Macedonianism in northern
> Greece.
>
> -- To employ individuals who do not speak Macedonian.
>
> -- To encourage those who are employed with free housing, recreation and
> other state benefits.
>
> -- To promote Greek cultural societies and expand them; to publish books
and
> pamphlets to promote the concept that, abroad, Agean Macedonia will be
> considered Greek, thus deleting the word "Macedonia".
>
> -- To cause various difficulties for students from Greece studying in
Skopje
> to prevent them from pursuing their studies (deferment [of compulsory
> military service] denied and so forth).
>
> -- To encourage young people everywhere to rpomote the Greek idea and, if
> necessary, to persuade the people, also with the help of money, that
neither
> the Macedonian language nor the Macedonians exist.
>
> -- To move immediately to the southern part of Greece all employed
> individuals in Lerin [Florina] who speak Macedonian.
>
> -- To give service benefits and promotions to soldiers who marry
Macedonian
> women and make them adopt Greek customs.
>
> -- To industrialise the land with a view to full employment for the Greeks
> and the development of high standards, thus blocking the spread of
> propaganda coming from Skopje and neutralising the Macedonians."
>
> Kind of like ethnic cleansing isn't it.....?
>
> Marcello
>
Schlau
You're right. It's still unresolved among historians, armchair or
otherwise.
> I am a little hesitant to jump in here, frankly because so many people
> have an agenda here. My intrest is in history not the current squabbles of
> modern nation states. But objectivly speaking the pro-greek crowd has IMO
> made a better case. In sum the following points have been made in favor of
> Greek Macedonians:
>
> 1) Macedonia is apparently a Greek name. How likely is it that
> non Greek speakers would name their country in another language.
> 2) Evidence of another language is dubious. The references to
> Macedonians being difficult to understand could be explained by their > using a very dialectic Greek. Against this we have the fact that all > known
> inscriptions are in Greek. Nothing in this hypothetical Macedonian speech.
Most know inscriptions in Thrace and Illyria are also in Greek, one
wouldn't take that to mean they were Greek. Or most inscriptions in Gaul
and Britain are latin or greek, even prior to Roman conquest. Doesn't
mean Gauls or Britains were Greek or Latin however.
> 3) the place names are in Greek.
>
> 4) the proper names are Greek.
>
> 5) Finally after Macedonia conquers the Eastern Mediterranean it > is Greek that becomes the language of the empire.
The lingua franca of Empires isn't a clear indication of the
original conqueors. Aramaic and not Persian was the lingua franca of the
Persian Empire for example.
> Even if both prove to be true, so what? People tend to divide
> themselves in many ways, but a persons belief does not determine
> ethnicity. Their language and culture does.
If we were just going by culture, I would immediatly agree that the
Macedonians=Greek. But ethnically, the issue is much more clouded. But
then again it's really a non-issue like blacks=Egyptians. It's only via
nationalistic type feelings that's it's been turned into an issue.
And yes I realize in these ahh debates, I've gotten out of hand and
posted things I probably shouldn't have.
--Oscar Schlaf--
Schlau
Steve T wrote:
>
> "Schlau" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3A92FEBD...@hotmail.com...
> >
> > > Now that's quite a sweeping statement.
> > > Who are you to comment on "Spirits" faults?
> >
> > I'll give you my credentials if you want them. "Harton" wont even > > give you his real name....
>
> I don't blame him, given the sensitive nature of the subject matter.
> People have, after all, died for less.
"Harton" is an American in Texas, he wont be dying for anything
relating to FYROM or Greece, unless the US gets involved, which
seems implausible.
> This is not a game.
> It's all very well for you to pontificate to to us about our supposed > lack of objectivity, but you don't seem to realize exactly what's at
> stake.
> For example, if Fyrom was to be called New Macedonia, how long do you
> suppose it would be before they were simply referred to as Macedonians > and eventually associated with the ancient Macedonians, to which they > have no connection whatsoever, unlike the Greeks?
I suggested the name North Makedonia before and I was labeled a
pro-Greek racists by certain people of FYROM.
> At the very least, modern Greeks speak the same language and maintain
> similar customs to those of the ancient Macedonians.
If the discussion were over just that I wouldn't disagree. Tho how
close the customs of any people are similar to those of 2,500+ years
ago is a bit questionable.
> Just as importantly, Greeks occupy the land of ancient Macedonia.
> Something about "possesion being nine tenths of the law" immediately
> springs to mind
Small parts of the Macedonian kingdom under Philip II actually is
controled by Bulgaria and FYROM.
> Fyromians have nothing Macedonian about them.
> Ask yourself this.
> Why is it so important that Fyromians call themselves Macedonians?
> Regardless of who the ancient Macedonians were, why are they so insistant on
> using this name?
I doubt most people of FYROM have any real ideas about claiming any
part of Greek Makedonia and the linking of themselves to the Ancient
Makedonians has to do with wanting a glorious history. Same reasons
some Afro-centric scholars want to claim Cleopatra was black.
> Whoever the ancient Macedonians were, they most certainly aren't in
> any way related to the modern occupants of FYROM.
Never said they were. My interest has been academic(I only post and
reply to threads posted and cross-posted to soc.history.ancient)
> To date, all evidence points to them being of Greek origin, undeniably > so.
> So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
All evidence doesn't point to that, many historians have said and I'm
saying that on the ethnicty of the Ancient Macedonians, the issue isn't
clear that they were greeks ethnic wise. I didn't and don't say the
FYROM are ethnically or culturally related to the Ancient Macedonians
and I didn't and don't say that FYROM has any valid claims on Greek (or
Bulgarian) territory. Go ahead and snip that and quote me anytime
any FYROM goes and uses anything I posted in thier arguments.
> Who do you serve?
The US government currently.
--Oscar Schlaf--
Myros Pimenakis
As you said: "Most". Now do you know the difference between "most" and "ALL"?
>
>
> > 3) the place names are in Greek.
> >
> > 4) the proper names are Greek.
> >
> > 5) Finally after Macedonia conquers the Eastern Mediterranean it > is Greek that becomes the language of the empire.
>
> The lingua franca of Empires isn't a clear indication of the
> original conqueors. Aramaic and not Persian was the lingua franca of the
> Persian Empire for example.
The difference here is that Greek was the language of the Macedonians and of their empire
at a later stage.
>
> > Even if both prove to be true, so what? People tend to divide
> > themselves in many ways, but a persons belief does not determine
> > ethnicity. Their language and culture does.
>
> If we were just going by culture, I would immediatly agree that the
> Macedonians=Greek. But ethnically, the issue is much more clouded.
Ethnically the issue is clouded anyway. It is culture that plays the biggest role here.
> But
> then again it's really a non-issue like blacks=Egyptians. It's only via
> nationalistic type feelings that's it's been turned into an issue.
You are right. So why did you mention it?
> And yes I realize in these ahh debates, I've gotten out of hand and
> posted things I probably shouldn't have.
If you want SHA to have some peace you better not. As far as I know you had a very bad
experience regarding this matter before so why taste it again?
MSP
>
> --Oscar Schlaf--
Myros Pimenakis
Schlau wrote:
>
> Steve T wrote:
> >
> > "Schlau" <dr_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3A92FEBD...@hotmail.com...
> > >
>
> > > > Now that's quite a sweeping statement.
> > > > Who are you to comment on "Spirits" faults?
> > >
> > > I'll give you my credentials if you want them. "Harton" wont even > > give you his real name....
> >
> > I don't blame him, given the sensitive nature of the subject matter.
> > People have, after all, died for less.
>
> "Harton" is an American in Texas, he wont be dying for anything
> relating to FYROM or Greece, unless the US gets involved, which
> seems implausible.
US is getting involved anyway.
>
> > This is not a game.
> > It's all very well for you to pontificate to to us about our supposed > lack of objectivity, but you don't seem to realize exactly what's at
> > stake.
> > For example, if Fyrom was to be called New Macedonia, how long do you
> > suppose it would be before they were simply referred to as Macedonians > and eventually associated with the ancient Macedonians, to which they > have no connection whatsoever, unlike the Greeks?
>
> I suggested the name North Makedonia before and I was labeled a
> pro-Greek racists by certain people of FYROM.
You will get labelled as Pro-Fyrom by certain Greeks also because of that as I was. So
what?
>
> > At the very least, modern Greeks speak the same language and maintain
> > similar customs to those of the ancient Macedonians.
>
> If the discussion were over just that I wouldn't disagree. Tho how
> close the customs of any people are similar to those of 2,500+ years
> ago is a bit questionable.
>
> > Just as importantly, Greeks occupy the land of ancient Macedonia.
> > Something about "possesion being nine tenths of the law" immediately
> > springs to mind
>
> Small parts of the Macedonian kingdom under Philip II actually is
> controled by Bulgaria and FYROM.
>
> > Fyromians have nothing Macedonian about them.
> > Ask yourself this.
> > Why is it so important that Fyromians call themselves Macedonians?
> > Regardless of who the ancient Macedonians were, why are they so insistant on
> > using this name?
>
> I doubt most people of FYROM have any real ideas about claiming any
> part of Greek Makedonia
That is where you are wrong. Regardless their beliefs -about being "pure" Macedonians
directly linked to the ancients or not - they do. Do you really think their attempt to put
the star of Vergina in their flag was for the fan of it?
> and the linking of themselves to the Ancient
> Makedonians has to do with wanting a glorious history.
Actually it is because of brainwashing, cultivating and myths. Practises very common in
the Balkans.
> Same reasons
> some Afro-centric scholars want to claim Cleopatra was black.
>
> > Whoever the ancient Macedonians were, they most certainly aren't in
> > any way related to the modern occupants of FYROM.
>
> Never said they were. My interest has been academic(I only post and
> reply to threads posted and cross-posted to soc.history.ancient)
>
>
> > To date, all evidence points to them being of Greek origin, undeniably > so.
> > So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
>
> All evidence doesn't point to that, many historians have said and I'm
> saying that on the ethnicty of the Ancient Macedonians, the issue isn't
> clear that they were greeks ethnic wise.
Do the same scholars provide the criteria regarding the Greek ethnicity?
If so please share it with us.
Perhaps the meaning of the word "ethnos" - to start with - will help?
Were the Molossis Greeks ethnic wise?
MSP
June R Harton
> pro-Greek racists by certain people of FYROM.
From: "Dirty Harry" <dirtyharr...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: FR: LYNGOS RE:THE NAME.......NORTHERN MAKEDONIA?
> >Is the name going to be NORTHERN MAKEDONIA?
YOUR KIND TO THE FACTORY SO THE TURKS CAN MAKE SOAP OUT
OF YOU.
> controled by Bulgaria and FYROM.
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/mapSeq_Map01.html
And to the _north_ of Macedonia, the ancient Fyromland area:
Map from "Report of the International Commission To Inquire
into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars" 1914.
> > So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
> saying that on the ethnicty of the Ancient Macedonians, the issue isn't
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
June R Harton
"Schlau" wrote
> You're right. It's still unresolved among historians, armchair or
> otherwise.
Oscar, please read the following more carefully:
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any
written text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the
like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
From: Spirit of truth
vasif@fisav
attacks on voyager.
if i am a shit stirrer it is only because there is so much shit
around!!!
voyager at least seem to create a dunghill every day.
while another one of your colleagues, daily posts history *shits*
about what went on at the junction of the 19th/20th centuries.
i am fed up with flames of greco-turkish hatred being fanned every
single day of the year.
i am for friendship and cooperation between greeks and turks and FUCK
the likes of this lot who keep doint their very best to fan the flames
of hatred.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Steve T wrote in message <970cak$mula0$1...@ID-70631.news.dfncis.de>...
June R Harton
"vasif@fisav" wrote
> i am for friendship and cooperation between greeks and turks and FUCK
> the likes of this lot who keep doint their very best to fan the flames
> of hatred.
Yeh! Then get that military and civilian occupation force out of Cyprus,
then we can really be friends!
:)
Schlau
> June R Harton wrote:
>
>
> > > To date, all evidence points to them being of Greek origin,
> > > undeniably so.
> > > So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
>
> > All evidence doesn't point to that, many historians have said and
> > I'm saying that on the ethnicty of the Ancient Macedonians, the
> > issue isn't clear that they were Greeks ethnic wise.
>
> Folks, it is not many, it is a handful....one can only say Oscar
> refuses to see what is presented to him:
>
>
> "Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
> unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
> "Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus
> region,
> migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any
> written text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and
> the like
> suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes,
> both
> secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and
> legends
> identify or link the people with the Dorians."
> John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard
> University
> Press, Massachusetts, 1983
As stated before Hellenic vs. Hellene are two differant things.
And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and
Cimmerians among others.
> ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
> and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
> contending that it was a dialect of Greek.
"Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
some are clearly not Greek."
- G. L. Hammond's
"The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
Calrendon Press, Oxford,
1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
"Did the ancient Macedonians speak a form of ancient Greek? The
question seems to me at present unanswerable for the period down to
Alexander the Great. We so far have no real evidence on the structure
of the ancient Macedonian language: only on proper names and (to
small extent) on general vocabulary, chiefly nouns. This is not a
basis on which to judge linguistic affinities, especially in the
context of the ancient Balkan area and its population."
- E. Badian "Greeks and Macedonians," THE HISTORY OF ART, vol. 10
"On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a
dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of
Macedonian has survived to know what language it was."
- Edmund F Bloedow
"History of Greece:From the Beginnings to the Byzantine Era"
" What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in
Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to
non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek
(like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian.
However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to
the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian."
- A. B. Bosworth
"Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
As clear as a muddied lake it remains...
--Oscar Schlaf--
June R Harton
"Schlau" wrote
I wrote
> > > > To date, all evidence points to them being of Greek origin,
> > > > undeniably so.
> > > > So why do they want the name and why do you insist they weren't?
> > > All evidence doesn't point to that, many historians have said and
> > > I'm saying that on the ethnicty of the Ancient Macedonians, the
> > > issue isn't clear that they were Greeks ethnic wise.
> > Folks, it is not many, it is a handful....one can only say Oscar
> > refuses to see what is presented to him:
> > "Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
> > unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
> > "Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus
> > region, migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not
> > survived in any written text, but the names of individuals, places,
> > gods, months and the like suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect.
> > Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked Hellenic
> > characteristics, and legends identify or link the people with the
Dorians."
> > John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard
> > University
> > Press, Massachusetts, 1983
> As stated before Hellenic vs. Hellene are two differant things.
He didn't simply state that a one liner, did he Oscar!
> And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and
> Cimmerians among others.
False and stupid data.
> "Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
> 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
> no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
> some are clearly not Greek."
> - G. L. Hammond's
> "The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
> Calrendon Press, Oxford,
> 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> "Did the ancient Macedonians speak a form of ancient Greek? The
> question seems to me at present unanswerable for the period down to
> Alexander the Great. We so far have no real evidence on the structure
> of the ancient Macedonian language: only on proper names and (to
> small extent) on general vocabulary, chiefly nouns. This is not a
> basis on which to judge linguistic affinities, especially in the
> context of the ancient Balkan area and its population."
> - E. Badian "Greeks and Macedonians," THE HISTORY OF ART, vol. 10
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> "On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a
> dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.
> Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of
> Macedonian has survived to know what language it was."
> - Edmund F Bloedow
> "History of Greece:From the Beginnings to the Byzantine Era"
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> " What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in
> Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians.
> Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek (like Eumenes)
> with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian.
> However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to
> the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian."
> - A. B. Bosworth
> "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
Already you have been shown that the above is a false statement
re Curtius, have you forgotten it?
And this says what it says despite your attempt to ignore it, Troll:
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
Schlau
Yes he said:
"Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked
Hellenic characteristics"
Which in of itself isn't proof. If it were, the Etruscans and Romans
would then be considered Greeks, which they aren't.
> > And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians,
> > and Cimmerians among others.
>
> False and stupid data.
The Dorians were an Indo-European speaking group that
invaded/immigrated into Europe and then Greece between 1200 and 1000
bce. The Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and Cimmerians were other
branches of the same Indo-European invasion/migration during
the exact same time period.
That's pretty much standard history and not an issue historians
disagree on, like the Makedonian issue.
> > "Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
> > 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
> > no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
> > some are clearly not Greek."
> > - G. L. Hammond's
> > "The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
> > Calrendon Press, Oxford,
> > 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
>
> ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
> and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
> contending that it was a dialect of Greek.
I quoted Hammond's opinion above. As for Kalleris and Griffith, neither
are philologists.
> > "Did the ancient Macedonians speak a form of ancient Greek? The
> > question seems to me at present unanswerable for the period down to
> > Alexander the Great. We so far have no real evidence on the
> > structure of the ancient Macedonian language: only on proper names > > and (to small extent) on general vocabulary, chiefly nouns. This is > > not a basis on which to judge linguistic affinities, especially in
> > the context of the ancient Balkan area and its population."
> > - E. Badian "Greeks and Macedonians," THE HISTORY OF ART, vol. 10
> > "On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian > > a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.
> > Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of
> > Macedonian has survived to know what language it was."
> > - Edmund F Bloedow
> > "History of Greece:From the Beginnings to the Byzantine Era"
>
>
> > " What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in
> > Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to
> > non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek > > (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian.
> > However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed
> > to the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian."
> > - A. B. Bosworth
> > "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
>
> Already you have been shown that the above is a false statement
> re Curtius, have you forgotten it?
Your "explanations" as to why it was "false" were false, have you
forgotten?
> And this says what it says despite your attempt to ignore it,:
>
> ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
Yes it says what it says. It isn't denfinitve proof. Hammond admits
philologists don't agree with him. Griffith wrote a book, "Views and
Controversies About Classical Antiquity" in which he makes in clear
that the Makedonian issue is far from settled. And Kalleris, being a
Greek has a somewhat clouded viewpoint on the issue, much like you. And
what you quoted in any event is the editorial opinion of Ian Morris, the
author of the book. Morris himself has some of his own controversies
reguarding his theories about a social revolution in the eighth century
B.C. Greece.
You're quoting things and people, you don't know much about
"Harton"...
--Oscar Schlaf--
June R Harton
"Schlau" the consunmate troll wrote
I wrote
> > > > John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard
> > > > University
> > > > Press, Massachusetts, 1983
> > > As stated before Hellenic vs. Hellene are two differant things.
> Yes he said:
> "Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked
> Hellenic characteristics"
No he didn't, troll. He stated:
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus
region, migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not
survived in any written text, but the names of individuals, places,
gods, months and the like suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect.
Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked Hellenic
characteristics, and legends identify or link the people with the
Dorians."
> Which in of itself isn't proof. If it were, the Etruscans and Romans
> would then be considered Greeks, which they aren't.
Oscar, can you read! LOOK:
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus
region, migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not
survived in any written text, but the names of individuals, places,
gods, months and the like suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect.
Macedonians institutes, both secular and religious, had marked Hellenic
characteristics, and legends identify or link the people with the
Dorians."
And Etruscans and Romans didn't match the above descrptions, troll.
> > > And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians,
> > > and Cimmerians among others.
> > False and stupid data.
> The Dorians were an Indo-European speaking group that
> invaded/immigrated into Europe and then Greece between 1200
> and 1000 bce.
Don't be stupid now, Oscar.....the statement was A GREEK TRIBE
not an Indo-European speaking group!
>The Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and Cimmerians were other
> branches of the same Indo-European invasion/migration during
> the exact same time period.
None of which were described as a Greek tribe.
> That's pretty much standard history and not an issue historians
> disagree on, like the Makedonian issue.
B/S. Show us even ONE even half-baked scholar who says DORIANS
and those OTHERS were all simply "Indo-European tribes" and the
Dorians were not Greek.
> > > "Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
> > > 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
> > > no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
> > > some are clearly not Greek."
> > > - G. L. Hammond's
> > > "The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
> > > Calrendon Press, Oxford,
> > > 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
> > ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> > The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
> > and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
> > contending that it was a dialect of Greek.
> I quoted Hammond's opinion above. As for Kalleris and Griffith, neither
> are philologists.
Stop being stupid, troll.
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> "Did the ancient Macedonians speak a form of ancient Greek? The
> question seems to me at present unanswerable for the period down to
> Alexander the Great. We so far have no real evidence on the structure
> of the ancient Macedonian language: only on proper names and (to
> small extent) on general vocabulary, chiefly nouns. This is not a
> basis on which to judge linguistic affinities, especially in the
> context of the ancient Balkan area and its population."
> - E. Badian "Greeks and Macedonians," THE HISTORY OF ART, vol. 10
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> "On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a
> dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.
> Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of
> Macedonian has survived to know what language it was."
> - Edmund F Bloedow
> "History of Greece:From the Beginnings to the Byzantine Era"
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
> > > "History of Greece:From the Beginnings to the Byzantine Era"
> > > " What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in
> > > Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to
> > > non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek >
(like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian.
> > > However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed
> > > to the phalangites of Neoptholemus by a man fluent in Macedonian."
> > > - A. B. Bosworth
> > > "Myth Of The Magus; The Ruin Of Alexander The Great"
> > Already you have been shown that the above is a false statement
> > re Curtius, have you forgotten it?
> Your "explanations" as to why it was "false" were false, have you
> forgotten?
That is a pure lie, Oscar. You are shameless in your filth.
> > And this says what it says despite your attempt to ignore it,:
> > ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> Yes it says what it says. It isn't denfinitve proof. Hammond admits
> philologists don't agree with him.
False statement.
> Griffith wrote a book, "Views and
> Controversies About Classical Antiquity" in which he makes in clear
> that the Makedonian issue is far from settled.
False and deceptive statement.
> And Kalleris, being a
> Greek has a somewhat clouded viewpoint on the issue, much like you.
Ignorant, racist statement. The evidence and the consensus of scholars
everywhere have been shown to you. You are a nasty biased antiGreek
racist and you shall henceforth be known.
Let it be clear to you...if you had admitted that a handful of scholars
disagree
and you agree with that minority because...... even though it would be
dumb when their false logic and bias had been exposed as the source of their
ideas, I would have at least given you the benefit of the doubt that you
were
simply stupid....as it is that is not the case as you lie about the data in
front
of you. You are no better than the other anti-Greek hate mongers that
you feed with your lies.
vasif@fisav
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Voyager wrote in message <96uv7p$e1b$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
Schlau
June R Harton wrote:
>
> "Schlau" the consunmate troll wrote
> I wrote
> > > > And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians,
> > > > and Cimmerians among others.
> > > False and stupid data.
> > The Dorians were an Indo-European speaking group that
> > invaded/immigrated into Europe and then Greece between 1200
> > and 1000 bce.
>
> Don't be stupid now, Oscar.....the statement was A GREEK TRIBE
> not an Indo-European speaking group!
Greek is Indo-European you idiot, as is just about every other modern
language of Europe..
> >The Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and Cimmerians were other
> > branches of the same Indo-European invasion/migration during
> > the exact same time period.
> > That's pretty much standard history and not an issue historians
> > disagree on, like the Makedonian issue.
>
> B/S. Show us even ONE even half-baked scholar who says DORIANS
> and those OTHERS were all simply "Indo-European tribes"
Are you seriously suggesting that the Dorians weren't Indo-European
speaking? Crack open any encylopedia and look up the term Indo-European
or look at the tree of languages.
> > > And this says what it says despite your attempt to ignore it,:
> > > ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> > Yes it says what it says. It isn't denfinitve proof. Hammond
> > admits philologists don't agree with him.
>
> False statement.
"Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
some are clearly not Greek."
- G. L. Hammond
"The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
Calrendon Press, Oxford, 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
Do you understand what the words: "no certain conclusions" means? Do
even know what a philologist is?
> > Griffith wrote a book, "Views and
> > Controversies About Classical Antiquity" in which he makes in clear
> > that the Makedonian issue is far from settled.
>
> False and deceptive statement.
You haven't read the book, so you wouldn't know one way or the other
now would you? "Malkas" Harton strikes again..
> > And Kalleris, being a
> > Greek has a somewhat clouded viewpoint on the issue, much like you.
>
> Ignorant, racist statement.
"The Greek scholars, like G.Hatzidakis (1897, etc.) and above all
J.Kalleris (1964 and 1976), have turned this assumption (sic Greek
nature of the Makedonians) into a real dogma, with at times
nationalistic overtones."
- O.Masson,
"Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.906
> You are a nasty biased antiGreek
> racist and you shall henceforth be known.
I'm anti-greek? No one told me. I guess I better stop eatting those
gyros, loukoumades, and souvlakis now.
> Let it be clear to you...if you had admitted that a handful of scholars
> disagree
> and you agree with that minority because...... even though it would be
> dumb when their false logic and bias had been exposed as the source of their
> ideas, I would have at least given you the benefit of the doubt that you
> were
> simply stupid.
If you hadn't shown time and again that you are wholly unfamilar with
the people and sources you quote as well as unfamilar with related
hsitory. (example being you confused the reign of Perdikkas I with that
of Alexander I and even when so far as to try and argue the point), one
might think you simply stupid..
>...as it is that is not the case as you lie about the data in
> front of you.
My god boy, if you can take the subjective opinions of scholars based
on still rather fragmentary evidence, who are in disagreement with other
scholars as some sort of solid proof of anything, then you aren't
living in the real world.
You and others have taken a debate that was rather academic in nature
and turned it into some hyper-political issue, which no historian wants
it to be. In all your little snipets have you run across a single one in
which any historian agreed with applying thier scholarship to pump up
greek nationalism as you're doing? (or pump up FYROM nationalism for
that matter?)
> You are no better than the other anti-Greek hate mongers that
> you feed with your lies.
I post and continue to post to soc.history.ancient (and when I
respond to you to soc.culture.greek as well since you cross-posted to
there). If my aim was to "feed anti-greek hate mongers", I'd be cross
posting to soc.culture.macedonian and soc.culture.turkish (and maybe
soc.culture.albanian) and I wouldn't use the term FYROMian either.
--Oscar Schlaf--
"Uti, non abuti"
June R Harton
"Schlau" wrote
> June R Harton wrote:
> > "Schlau" the consummate troll wrote
> > I wrote
> > > > > And linked to the Dorians includes Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians,
> > > > > and Cimmerians among others.
> > > > False and stupid data.
> > > The Dorians were an Indo-European speaking group that
> > > invaded/immigrated into Europe and then Greece between 1200
> > > and 1000 bce.
> > Don't be stupid now, Oscar.....the statement was A GREEK TRIBE
> > not an Indo-European speaking group!
> Greek is Indo-European you idiot, as is just about every other modern
> language of Europe.
Duh!
> > >The Illyrians, Lydians, Phrgyians, and Cimmerians were other
> > > branches of the same Indo-European invasion/migration during
> > > the exact same time period.
> > > That's pretty much standard history and not an issue historians
> > > disagree on, like the Makedonian issue.
> > B/S. Show us even ONE even half-baked scholar who says DORIANS
> > and those OTHERS were all simply "Indo-European tribes"
> Are you seriously suggesting that the Dorians weren't Indo-European
> speaking? Crack open any encylopedia and look up the term Indo-European
> or look at the tree of languages.
Stupid cut job Oscar. Folks I wrote
""Show us even ONE even half-baked scholar who says DORIANS
and those OTHERS were all simply "Indo-European tribes" and the
Dorians were not Greek.""
> > > > And this says what it says despite your attempt to ignore it,:
> > > > ---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
> > > Yes it says what it says. It isn't denfinitve proof. Hammond
> > > admits philologists don't agree with him.
> > False statement.
> "Philologists have studied words which have been cited as
> 'Macedonian' in ancient lexica and glossaries, and they have come to
> no certain conclusion; for some of the words are clearly Greek, and
> some are clearly not Greek."
> - G. L. Hammond
> "The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institution and History,"
> Calrendon Press, Oxford, 1989, pp. 413.pp. 12-14:"
> Do you understand what the words: "no certain conclusions" means? Do
> even know what a philologist is?
Your false statemnet was Hammond admits philologists don't agree
with him. Am I discoursing with a dimwit?
> > > Griffith wrote a book, "Views and
> > > Controversies About Classical Antiquity" in which he makes in clear
> > > that the Makedonian issue is far from settled.
> > False and deceptive statement.
> You haven't read the book, so you wouldn't know one way or the other
> now would you? "Malkas" Harton strikes again..
B/S. You make the mistake of believing stupidities from Gail Schneider.
But then what is to be expected of the likes of you?
> > > And Kalleris, being a
> > > Greek has a somewhat clouded viewpoint on the issue, much like you.
> > Ignorant, racist statement.
> "The Greek scholars, like G.Hatzidakis (1897, etc.) and above all
> J.Kalleris (1964 and 1976), have turned this assumption (sic Greek
> nature of the Makedonians) into a real dogma, with at times
> nationalistic overtones."
> - O.Masson,
> "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.906
That does not say it is incorrect, and in fact Masson's concludes
the opposite to you, doesn't he Oscar?!
> > You are a nasty biased antiGreek
> > racist and you shall henceforth be known.
> I'm anti-greek? No one told me. I guess I better stop eatting those
> gyros, loukoumades, and souvlakis now.
> > Let it be clear to you...if you had admitted that a handful of scholars
> > disagree
> > and you agree with that minority because...... even though it would be
> > dumb when their false logic and bias had been exposed as the source of
their
> > ideas, I would have at least given you the benefit of the doubt that you
> > were
> > simply stupid.
> If you hadn't shown time and again that you are wholly unfamilar with
> the people
False and stupid statement.
> and sources
False and another stupid statement.
As usual, those things the likes of you apply to others exactly
are really applicable to you.
> you quote as well as unfamilar with related hsitory.
Let's look at your "example" below:
> (example being you confused the reign of Perdikkas I with that
> of Alexander I and even when so far as to try and argue the point),
> one might think you simply stupid..
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....you are REALLY nuts!
Oscar, everyone has seen that YOU were the confused and imbecilic
fool that said Herodotos spoke about Alexander the III, whereas I
was simply attempting to handle your garbage. I will repost it all
if you want.
:)
> >...as it is that is not the case as you lie about the data in
> > front of you.
> My god boy, if you can take the subjective opinions of scholars based
> on still rather fragmentary evidence, who are in disagreement with other
> scholars as some sort of solid proof of anything, then you aren't
> living in the real world.
Folks, one can only again say Oscar refuses to see what is right in front
of him:
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any
written text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the
like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
> You and others have taken a debate that was rather academic in nature
> and turned it into some hyper-political issue, which no historian wants
> it to be. In all your little snipets have you run across a single one in
> which any historian agreed with applying thier scholarship to pump up
> greek nationalism as you're doing? (or pump up FYROM nationalism for
> that matter?)
Troll, lying revisionism, like yours, will be countered whenever possible.
Trolls like you shall not be left to mislead the unwary.
> > You are no better than the other anti-Greek hate mongers that
> > you feed with your lies.
> I post and continue to post to soc.history.ancient (and when I
> respond to you to soc.culture.greek as well since you cross-posted to
> there). If my aim was to "feed anti-greek hate mongers", I'd be cross
> posting to soc.culture.macedonian and soc.culture.turkish (and maybe
> soc.culture.albanian) and I wouldn't use the term FYROMian either.
Thruthfully the correct address at the present the Fyromian revisionists
and Fyrom, as TitoBulgarians and TitoBulgaria.
Ioannis Coritidis
Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
m2Ak6.2860$Y43.6...@news3.cableinet.net...
> > > > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta
> vlepomai
> > > > piou kathara...
>
> Translation : We must occasionally view life through another's eyes.
> Then we
> see things more clearly.
>
> above was copied and pasted.... yes the translation is correct though
> i would change 'another's eyes' to 'others' eyes' -- i.e. from a
> different (non-greek) viewpoint. and surely then you will see things
> more clearly.
The Greek text is lousy. In Greek it is correctly said "... me allo mati.
Tote tha vlepoume pio kathara"
> >BTW Your Greek(lish) is reminiscent of a certain Turkish provocateur
> >who frequently stirs up trouble in the Greek newsgroup.
>
> i take it you are referring to me, vasif@fisav..... in which case i
> have to say that i am far from being a provocateur. after all it is
> you who say and claim that turks can coexist with greeks in an
> independent cyprus yet you cannot stomach the presence of one turk on
> a greek newsgroup.
>
Turks and Greek can coexist anywhere in the world, in both Greek and Turkish
newsgroups and of course in an independent Cyprus. They lived harmonicaly
until the island was engaged in the known political games. The fact that the
turkish occupation forces must leave along with the turkish settlers and
that the island must return to the status quo ante 1974 doesn't deny that.
After all that's the independent Cyprus you talked about. Too bad that the
anatolian settlers and their "paradise" made most turk-cypriots leave the
island and go to London. And if I may deviate from the subject I 'd propose
a constitution that does not divide the citizens in Greeks and Turks. Then
the Cypriots would be able to live in peace and prosper.
> i must say it is some tolerance (!) you are exhibiting.... need i say
> any more?
>
> my response would be that you would do well to start seeing things
> from a different point of view and not jump to the conclusion that if
> the name of australia has any connections with ancient greek, then
> australia must have been discovered by ancient greeks.
>
True but this works both ways...
> you BF (bloody effing) greek nationalists are just as bad if not worse
> that turkish BF nationalists. we'll have to put you all on a remote
> island so you can sort each other out.
>
Fanatics are always bad no matter their nationality and unfortunately they
are all the same.
Steve T
"Ioannis Coritidis" <Car...@law.auth.gr> wrote in message
news:97tupg$1m5l$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
> m2Ak6.2860$Y43.6...@news3.cableinet.net...
> > > > > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta
> > vlepomai
> > > > > piou kathara...
> >
> > Translation : We must occasionally view life through another's eyes.
> > Then we
> > see things more clearly.
> >
> > above was copied and pasted.... yes the translation is correct though
> > i would change 'another's eyes' to 'others' eyes' -- i.e. from a
> > different (non-greek) viewpoint. and surely then you will see things
> > more clearly.
>
> The Greek text is lousy. In Greek it is correctly said "... me allo mati.
> Tote tha vlepoume pio kathara"
I assumed "alou mati" meant "alonou mati(a)" as opposed to "allo mati".
Mine was a literal translation (word for word).
In response to the criticism of spelling mistakes in another post, if indeed
it was directed at me, my Greeklish is made up as I go along.
I just type is it I think it sounds.
I didn't realise there was a standardised form for Greek using Latin
characters.
BTW, the original Greek text, above, wasn't mine (in case you were
wondering).
Ioannis Coritidis
>
> "Ioannis Coritidis" <Car...@law.auth.gr> wrote in message
> news:97tupg$1m5l$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> >
> > Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
> > m2Ak6.2860$Y43.6...@news3.cableinet.net...
> > > > > > Prepi kapou kapou na kitamai, Tin zoi mai alou mati, Totess ta
> > > vlepomai
> > > > > > piou kathara...
> > >
> > > Translation : We must occasionally view life through another's eyes.
> > > Then we
> > > see things more clearly.
> > >
> > > above was copied and pasted.... yes the translation is correct though
> > > i would change 'another's eyes' to 'others' eyes' -- i.e. from a
> > > different (non-greek) viewpoint. and surely then you will see things
> > > more clearly.
> >
> > The Greek text is lousy. In Greek it is correctly said "... me allo
mati.
> > Tote tha vlepoume pio kathara"
>
> I assumed "alou mati" meant "alonou mati(a)" as opposed to "allo mati".
> Mine was a literal translation (word for word).
That stands too. didn't think of it...
> In response to the criticism of spelling mistakes in another post, if
indeed
> it was directed at me, my Greeklish is made up as I go along.
> I just type is it I think it sounds.
No it was for the person who originaly wrote the "me alou mati" sentence
> I didn't realise there was a standardised form for Greek using Latin
> characters.
>
There isn't a standard way and sure no "established" orthography. However,
most Greeks writting in Greeklish tend to keep the actual spelling putting
the appropriate english letters in the position of the greek ones (i.e.
Ioannis not Ioanis). That's where I got confused...
> BTW, the original Greek text, above, wasn't mine (in case you were
> wondering).
>
I wasn't since I know it's vasif's :-)
Ioannis Coritidis
> ate, pale!! ta idia.... mposes fores re malakismeno!!!!
>
Why don't you just buy a greek-english vocabulary (and please stop trolling)
Correct: Ante pali ta idia... poses fores re malakismeno!
vasif@fisav
if YOU want to speak ka8areousa, you are welcome to do so but don't
expect cypriots to do so as well.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Ioannis Coritidis wrote in message
<9868s3$i4f$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
vasif@fisav
Steve T wrote...
> I assumed "alou mati" meant "alonou mati(a)" as opposed to "allo
mati".
> Mine was a literal translation (word for word).
Ioannis Cotrides replied...
That stands too. didn't think of it...
vasif@fisav says...
re Ioanni, ma th enomises? did you think it was saying close your left
eye and look with your right eye? or vice versa?
of course it said look (at things) with the eyes of others.... i.e.
look at things from another (a different) point of view....
he-he-he! what will be the use of having a greek phrase book to
me.... what we need is a bit of common sense, kyrie kotridi!!!
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Ioannis Coritidis wrote in message
<9868sb$i4f$2...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
vasif@fisav
>AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE.
>
>
>Vasif@fisaf is definitely a hater of Greeks.
>His role here is to fulsificate the truth as a common liar
>and an apologist of the fascistic Turkish regime.
>His tactic is to avoid always the serious conversation using
>a pathetic humor and a very rich variety of abusses of the worse
>kind.
>The Turkish crimes against humanity can not be forgotten
>and the history can not be changed despite how many pathetic
>liars like vasif@fisav are working for it.
>
>In the following photo proud Turkish soldiers showing which
>civilized way they are solving the Kudish problem and the very
>high level of civilization of the fascistic Turkish regime.
>I have so many many photos like this. So many !!!!!
>And all photos are ABSOLUTELY AUTHENTIC FAKES.
>
>
Ioannis Coritidis
Ο vasif@fisav <va...@fisav.swinternet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
986iqq$d4t$3...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> NOT in cypriot greek!!! <G>
In Greek, spoken both in Greece and Cyprus it is this way. Go learn the
language
> if YOU want to speak ka8areousa, you are welcome to do so but don't
> expect cypriots to do so as well.
>
Not cathareuousa, just greek. Plain Dimotiki, spoken every day in Greece and
Cyprus as well...
Ioannis Coritidis
> Re Translation from Greek...
>
> Steve T wrote...
> > I assumed "alou mati" meant "alonou mati(a)" as opposed to "allo
> mati".
> > Mine was a literal translation (word for word).
>
>
> Ioannis Cotrides replied...
> That stands too. didn't think of it...
>
> vasif@fisav says...
>
> re Ioanni, ma th enomises? did you think it was saying close your left
> eye and look with your right eye? or vice versa?
Matia mou, an ixeres ellinika, tha ixeres episis oti yparhei tetoia
ekfrasi.... (Translation: My dear, if you knew Greek, you 'd knew as well
that there is such an expression, "me allo mati"
> of course it said look (at things) with the eyes of others.... i.e.
> look at things from another (a different) point of view....
>
> he-he-he! what will be the use of having a greek phrase book to
> me.... what we need is a bit of common sense, kyrie kotridi!!!
A spelling book for starters and then some knowledge of Greek....
PS unfortunately I don't know your name to address you as well (with correct
spelling though)
vasif@fisav
let's not go into too much detail. when translating, one translates to
the best of one's ability what the same thought would be expressed as
in the other language.
if the greek was not fully in line with greek grammar, that does not
mean that the thought or the expression should not be translated in
the manner intended by the original unless of course for literary
reasons the faults are left in or somehow translated into the other
language.
i fully know the difference between other eye and others' eyes but it
is obvious that what was meant was "through others' eyes" or "through
the eyes of others" i.e. from a different perspective, from a
different point of view.
however, when you have learned as much turkish as i know greek, then
you can give yourself the licence to act the "maestro".
--
vasif@fisav
**************
vasif@fisav
totes mou ksana grafeis gia ta ellenika mou...
den emilisa ta ellenika 30 khronia, kai pale mporo na ta milisw... ean
den sou aresei signomi...
--
vasif@fisav
**************
Ioannis Coritidis
> kyrie ioanni,
>
> let's not go into too much detail. when translating, one translates to
> the best of one's ability what the same thought would be expressed as
> in the other language.
>
> if the greek was not fully in line with greek grammar, that does not
> mean that the thought or the expression should not be translated in
> the manner intended by the original unless of course for literary
> reasons the faults are left in or somehow translated into the other
> language.
>
> i fully know the difference between other eye and others' eyes but it
> is obvious that what was meant was "through others' eyes" or "through
> the eyes of others" i.e. from a different perspective, from a
> different point of view.
Now, that you say it it's clear. In the text it could be interpreted both
ways...
>
> however, when you have learned as much turkish as i know greek, then
> you can give yourself the licence to act the "maestro".
>
Actually, when you know best greek than I do then you could act as the
"maestro". At least I didn't.
PS. I am willing to learn turkish, if you are willing to teach me.
Ioannis Coritidis
Turkcypriot . Denil lan o cok Turkizce.
Den se malono gia kako yavrum. Apla, opws den mporw egw na sou matho turkika
etsi kai esy den mporeis na mou ma8eis ellinika. An thes omos na mou matheis
turkika tote allazei to pragma. Dystyhos o pappous moy pethane prin mou ta
mathei...
Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
oDes6.1530$9U5.7...@news2.cableinet.net...
Voyager
vasif@fisav
how on earth can i be the master when we have a mastroioanni?;-)))))
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Ioannis Coritidis wrote in message
<98vm97$ke1$2...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
vasif@fisav
it was nice to hear your response. it is obvious that you took it in
good spirit. i can assure you that there are no hard feelings on my
part.
it was really nice and civil of you to put in a few turkish words in
your response.
that's how i want relations between greeks and turks to be= good,
friendly, cordial.
we have a heck of a lot in common than would appear to the casual
observer of these NGs. personally i enjoy the company of
greeks unless of course they are unfriendly to me in the first place
because of my ethnicity. and let me also state that neither do i
approve of turks who are anti-greek purely on grounds of ethnicity.
exchanging a few words in greek or turkish is as good a way as any to
show that we recognize and respect one another as human beings first
and foremost.
let us hope that relations between our two peoples will keep on
improving.
any way, when you say "ismin ne vasif?" it is like me asking you "ti
einai to onoma sou ioanni?" get it...?
xereteismata ioanni... efkharistithika mpolla!!!
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Ioannis Coritidis wrote in message
<98vm8q$ke1$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
Ioannis Coritidis
Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
O4Ws6.5899$e16.2...@news2.cableinet.net...
vasif@fisav
a day or so ago, i reformatted my hard disk, and just realized that i forgot
to get a copy of my signature which i had worded myself. i was dreading that
i might have lost it and that i'd have to go to a lot of bother to get it
back.
but since you have included my response in your reply, all i have to do is
to copy and paste it as my signature so my new postings will carry the same
signature.
i see you haven't bothered to listen to voyager and not responded to me. i
thank you very much for that. give him my love and tell him that my response
to him is...
yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir....
which reminds me of the story of an indian chief who had diarrhea and sent
somebody to the white doctor to give him some medication. the chap returns
next day and tells the doctor once again= big chief, no shit... so the
doctor gives him some stronger laxative.
anyway, this goes of for four to five days every day the chap telling the
doctor= big chief, no shit.
on the sixth day, the chap turns up yet again, and the doctor wonders what's
going on. "big chief, still no shit?" says the doctor. "no," says the red
indian messenger, "BIG SHIT, NO CHIEF" ;-))))))))
no doubt voyager will respond to this message of mine with one of his
ready-cut postings.
if this makes him feel important in that he convinces himself that he is
thus upholding hellenism, then so be it.... let him feel important;-)))))))
don't worry, we have his equivalent on the turkish NGs as well...
***********
Ioannis Coritidis wrote in message <997q9o$10ro$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>...
June R Harton
"vasif@fisav" <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote
> if this makes him feel important in that he convinces himself that he is
> thus upholding hellenism, then so be it.... let him feel
important;-)))))))
Circular one, i see you are still being uncivilized.
From: Spirit Of The Real Makedon/Evagoras
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Ioannis Coritidis
have occured. Voyager doesn't seem to be a fanatic, on the contrary. And as
far as I have seen you are not a fanatic either and (amazingly for me) seem
to be against the turkish occupation forces and tyranny of any kind. You are
in favor of Greek-Turkish frienship and that's good. It seems that you can
conversate exchanging arguments.
If I sence a Troll, I ignore it. However, a discussion is always pleasant
and I 'd like to see both you and Voyager sorting this misunderstanding out.
We all love our country and share our personal views (which are always
welcome). The provocators aren't.
PS: BTW today is the Greek National Holiday, when the Greeks uprised against
the Turks. Today, it can be a day of friendship. In any way, a day of
non-confrontation...
Ο vasif@fisav <vgcl...@cableinet.co.uk> έγραψε στο μήνυμα συζήτησης:
Kocu6.8413$rD6.1...@news2.cableinet.net...