Ruins Support Myth of Rome's Founding
Agamemnon
Legend Legitimized? Ruins Found That Correspond to Timing of Myth of Rome's
Founding
By SARAH BARDEN Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press
ROME Feb 14, 2005 - Legend has it that Rome was founded in 753 B.C. by
Romulus and Remus, the twin sons of Mars, the god of war, who were suckled
as infants by a she-wolf in the woods.
Now, archaeologists believe they have found evidence that at least part of
that tale may be true: Traces of a royal palace discovered in the Roman
Forum have been dated to roughly the period of the eternal city's legendary
foundation.
Andrea Carandini, a professor of archaeology at Rome's Sapienza University
who has been conducting excavations at the Forum for more than 20 years,
said he made the discovery over the past month at the spot where the Temple
of Romulus stands today.
It is next to the Sanctuary of Vesta the Roman goddess of the hearth just
outside the Palatine walls, site of the earliest traces of civilization in
Rome.
Where previously archaeologists had only found huts dating to the 8th
century B.C., Carandini and his team unearthed traces of regal splendor: A
3,700-square-foot palace, 1,130 square feet of which were covered and the
rest courtyard. There was a monumental entrance, and elaborate furnishings
and ceramics.
The walls were made of wood and clay, with a floor of wood shavings and
pressed turf. It was tests on the clay that allowed the archaeologists to
confirm the age of the find.
Carandini said the residence had "absolutely extraordinary dimensions,
dimensions not formerly known."
"It could be nothing other than the royal palace," he said, adding that
during that period the average abode was about one-tenth the size.
Carandini also found a hut where vestal virgins are believed to have lit a
sacred flame.
Eugenio La Rocca, the superintendent for monuments for the city of Rome,
said Carandini's interpretation of the ruins appears to be accurate.
"It seems to me that what is emerging from the excavation of Carandini, who
can be considered the highest authority in this field, is a very coherent
archaeological reading," La Rocca told the newspaper Il Messaggero.
"Whoever created the legend did so with the knowledge that behind it there
was a historical foundation," he told the newspaper. "That doesn't mean the
story of Romulus and Remus necessarily happened that way, but only that
memory as it was handed down by the majority of the Latin writers is much
more than a hypothesis."
In Rome's founding myth, the daughter of a king deposed by his brother was
forced to become a vestal virgin to prevent her from having children. But
Rhea Silvia became pregnant with sons of the god Mars.
When the infants were discovered, the princess was imprisoned and the babies
were set adrift in a basket on the Tiber River which today winds its way
through Rome.
The twins floated ashore safely and were suckled by a she-wolf until they
were rescued by a shepherd, who raised them.
When they learned the story of their past, they killed the usurper Amulius,
restored Rhea Silvia's father Numitor to the throne, and set off to found a
city on the site where they were taken care of by the wolf.
The image of the two naked babies looking up to drink the milk of the
she-wolf became a recurrent theme in Roman art, and sculptures of the scene
are scattered around museums throughout the nation.
While there is little evidence of the historical existence of twins called
Romulus and Remus who founded Rome, the discovery of the palace offers
tantalizing indications the legend had roots in fact.
Carandini began his career as an art historian before becoming involved in
archaeological digs.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Bbp
MORE GRIKI LIES
Agamemnon
"rg" <robg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1sCdnWBkiZY...@texas.net...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4v5n4
>
> Why do you believe it is "GRIKI LIES"
>
> Check if the information is correct before you say it is a lie...
>
> What does it have to do with Greece ?
Read Livy and you will find out.
rg
You mean:
Livy's History of Rome, Book 1:
The Earliest Legends
(Livius, Titus. The History of Rome, Vol. I
Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia Library)
Filippo Cintolesi
>
> No, the remains have been found.
>
finding a top rank residence datable to the VIII century bC
is by no means a proof that the myth of Rome fundation is true.
unless you believe that what Schliemann dug in Micene was really
the grave of Agamemnon, whose very face was imprinted in the
famous golden mask on display in the Athens' museum.
Agamemnon
"Filippo Cintolesi" <cint...@physchem.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:4216235F...@physchem.ox.ac.uk...
> rg wrote:
>>
>
>> No, the remains have been found.
>>
>
> finding a top rank residence datable to the VIII century bC
> is by no means a proof that the myth of Rome fundation is true.
So who built it ?
> unless you believe that what Schliemann dug in Micene was really
> the grave of Agamemnon, whose very face was imprinted in the
> famous golden mask on display in the Athens' museum.
Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped the
Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people that
Greek history describes.
tiglath
Let us face it, we have to endure archeologists who dig Bible in hand
(Albright), Iliad in hand (Schliemann), or Livy in hand if you wish,
and who are ready to project their pet beliefs onto the rocks they
unearth. Let them. We need all the diggers we can get. There are
always those who temper such rash enthusiasm with cool impartiality
afterwards.
tiglath
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> > unless you believe that what Schliemann dug in Micene was really
> > the grave of Agamemnon, whose very face was imprinted in the
> > famous golden mask on display in the Athens' museum.
>
> Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped
the
> Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people
that
> Greek history describes.
>
> http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
Non-sequitur, really.
The Mycenean palaces may as well have been built by the Myceneans, but
that doesn't make one of the tombs Schliemann discovered in Mycene the
tomb of Homer's Agamemnon.
Agamemnon
"tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message
news:1108752129.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
And who do you thing the Mycenaean were ? Aliens form Mars !
Agamemnon
You are forgetting the MAJOR difference between the Iliad and Livy on the
one hand and the Bible digs on the other. The Iliad and Livys descriptors of
times, people and places have been proven 100% accurate on all counts. The
bible's have not.
Jona
> Let us face it, we have to endure archeologists who dig Bible in hand
> (Albright), Iliad in hand (Schliemann), or Livy in hand if you wish,
> and who are ready to project their pet beliefs onto the rocks they
> unearth. Let them. We need all the diggers we can get. There are
> always those who temper such rash enthusiasm with cool impartiality
> afterwards.
Exactly my idea. Carandini is doing a fine job, but he is a bit too
enthusiastic about his conclusions. I remember he also claimed to have
identified the palace of the Roman kings on the Velia; it was later
pointed out by Moorman that Carandini's evidence was flawed. Still, we
have several sixth-century houses - brilliant, ain't it?
Jona
--
Jona Lendering
http://www.livius.org
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
IT IS PROPAGATED BY A COCKNEY GRIK PROPAGANDIST WHOS CURRENCY IS LIES
THEREFORE, it is "Greki Lies"
Mwahahahahahharharharharharharharharharharharharharhar
rg
Carandini is greek ?
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
Jona
>
> IT IS PROPAGATED BY A COCKNEY GRIK PROPAGANDIST WHOS CURRENCY IS LIES
Come on. Disagreement is fair because this forum is meant for debate;
but there is no need to insult people.
rg
>
> Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
>
Why is that ""Greki Lies" ?
I am asking again, is Carandini greek ?
Agamemnon
"Jona" <adsl2...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:42165690...@tiscali.nl...
> Seanie O'Kilfoyle wrote:
>>
>> IT IS PROPAGATED BY A COCKNEY GRIK PROPAGANDIST WHOS CURRENCY IS LIES
>
> Come on. Disagreement is fair because this forum is meant for debate;
> but there is no need to insult people.
>
Seanie O'Kilfoyle is a Turkish trolls that pelages s.c.g.
Jona
> "Jona" <adsl2...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
> > Come on. Disagreement is fair because this forum is meant for debate;
> > but there is no need to insult people.
>
> Seanie O'Kilfoyle is a Turkish trolls that pelages s.c.g.
So the two of you don't like each other. I don't mind, but why are the
other members of this forum forced to those insults? This was meant as a
thread about ancient Rome.
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
I HATE him, he's a bitch and a LOSER and a BLEATER who thinks that the
whole world is GRIK and GRIKS shit doesn't stink
Ner ner !
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
That is factual reportage, not personal insults
Matt Giwer
> Ruins Support Myth of Rome's Founding
> Where previously archaeologists had only found huts dating to the 8th
> century B.C., Carandini and his team unearthed traces of regal splendor: A
> 3,700-square-foot palace, 1,130 square feet of which were covered and the
> rest courtyard. There was a monumental entrance, and elaborate furnishings
> and ceramics.
This is an interesting find but 3700 and 1130 correspond to 60 and 34 feet square. Rich certainly
but not in the regal category. High end middle class homes are in the 3-4000 sq ft range. In fact
put four mobile homes in a square and you just about have its size. Italy is not known for losing a
sense of regal.
Is there a chance the translator should have used yard instead of foot when converting from meters?
--
If freedom is God's gift to all men when will
Iraqis be free of Americans?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3363
rg
news:sSxRd.56636$pc5....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
> > Ruins Support Myth of Rome's Founding
>
> > Where previously archaeologists had only found huts dating to the 8th
> > century B.C., Carandini and his team unearthed traces of regal splendor:
A
> > 3,700-square-foot palace, 1,130 square feet of which were covered and
the
> > rest courtyard. There was a monumental entrance, and elaborate
furnishings
> > and ceramics.
>
> This is an interesting find but 3700 and 1130 correspond to 60 and 34 feet
square. Rich certainly
> but not in the regal category. High end middle class homes are in the
3-4000 sq ft range. In fact
> put four mobile homes in a square and you just about have its size. Italy
is not known for losing a
> sense of regal.
>
> Is there a chance the translator should have used yard instead of foot
when converting from meters?
>
I doubt, since the Italian press is reporting the correspoding square
meters.
So, either way you look at it, those measurements, for how small they may
seem, that's how they have been reported by the experts.
Rebus
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> When the infants were discovered, the princess was imprisoned and the babies
> were set adrift in a basket on the Tiber River ....
strange correlary to other cultural myths like Moses. I wonder why that
would be - what in common (children being put out, set adrift, etc ....
even the Eskimows have such a legend.)
Mark
Matt Giwer
That implies the experts are desperate to find a foundation for the myth and in fact have only
found an upper middle class home. It really is not that big. It is 600 sq ft per trailer which ic
small for a trailer of that length.
If you have ever been inside a trailer and told its size and paid attention the walls are about 2
inches thick because they have insulation. The thickness of the stones has to make the living space
smaller than a trailer.
It is not believable this would be taken as a sign of nobility.
--
If the Israelis fighting settlement evacuation realized how
many of Israel's enemies are hoping it leads to civil war
they would support evacuation in a heartbeat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3374
Matt Giwer
> Agamemnon wrote:
If you worshipped every god found on a river there would not be enough days in the week.
The best of all records says the Maccabees created the original Greek Old Testament By all the
rules that is the original creation of the OT. Later copies in the invented "Hebrew" languate are
bogus.
Martin Edwards
>
> Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped the
> Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people that
> Greek history describes.
>
> http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>
to have belonged to Agamemnon, and he was king of *Argos*.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
this is usually skated over today.
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
Quite a lot of Greek names end in "-i". It is the ancient ending "-is"
iotacised to eta. Eg "Onassis" is really ONASSH in SMG. Katalavenis?
Martin Edwards
> Rebus wrote:
>
>> Agamemnon wrote:
>
>
>>> When the infants were discovered, the princess was imprisoned and the
>>> babies
>>> were set adrift in a basket on the Tiber River ....
>
>
>> strange correlary to other cultural myths like Moses. I wonder why that
>> would be - what in common (children being put out, set adrift, etc ....
>> even the Eskimows have such a legend.)
>
>
> If you worshipped every god found on a river there would not be
> enough days in the week.
>
> The best of all records says the Maccabees created the original
> Greek Old Testament By all the rules that is the original creation of
> the OT. Later copies in the invented "Hebrew" languate are bogus.
>
canonical collection, though.
Agamemnon
"Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cv704c$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> Agamemnon wrote:
>>
>> Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped the
>> Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people
>> that Greek history describes.
>>
>> http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>>
> You've rather missed the point here. The mask from Mikines is too *old*
Irrelevant. It is you who missed the point. Who made the mask. Alians ?
> to have belonged to Agamemnon, and he was king of *Argos*.
>
Get an education. Agamemnon was king of Mycenae. The kings of Argos at the
time were Stheneleus, Amphiolocus and Diomedes and Euryalos.
Agamemnon
Then who built the palaces, who worshiped the Greek Gods and who destroyed
Troy ?
Agamemnon
> rg wrote:
>> Seanie O'Kilfoyle wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
>>>
>>
>> Why is that ""Greki Lies" ?
>> I am asking again, is Carandini greek ?
>
> Quite a lot of Greek names end in "-i". It is the ancient ending "-is"
> iotacised to eta. Eg "Onassis" is really ONASSH in SMG. Katalavenis?
>
You are talking complete nonsense.
A name ending in "-is" is nominative as in O Socratis. If you remove the s
you get the vocative, W (bre) Socrati.
Martin Edwards
> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cv704c$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>
>>Agamemnon wrote:
>>
>>>Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped the
>>>Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people
>>>that Greek history describes.
>>>
>>>http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>>>
>>
>>You've rather missed the point here. The mask from Mikines is too *old*
>
>
> Irrelevant. It is you who missed the point. Who made the mask. Alians ?
>
Bronze Age Greeks. There is no argument about that.
>>to have belonged to Agamemnon, and he was king of *Argos*.
>>
>
>
> Get an education.
Don't talk to me like that, punk: I went to Watford Grammar. Why did
Aeschylus think Agamemnon was from Argos?
Martin Edwards
> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cv70hn$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>
>>rg wrote:
>>
>>>Seanie O'Kilfoyle wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why is that ""Greki Lies" ?
>>>I am asking again, is Carandini greek ?
>>
>>Quite a lot of Greek names end in "-i". It is the ancient ending "-is"
>>iotacised to eta. Eg "Onassis" is really ONASSH in SMG. Katalavenis?
>>
>
>
> You are talking complete nonsense.
>
> A name ending in "-is" is nominative as in O Socratis. If you remove the s
> you get the vocative, W (bre) Socrati.
>
On the other hand if you are a Cypriot you speak a bastard dialect
and, if you are literate at all, are literate in some kind of bastard
Katharevousa.
Agamemnon
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:cv704c$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>
>>>Agamemnon wrote:
>>>
>>>>Then pray tell who built the Mycenaean palaces and who was worshiped the
>>>>Hellenic Gods that are all named in Linear B if it was not the people
>>>>that Greek history describes.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>>>>
>>>
>>>You've rather missed the point here. The mask from Mikines is too *old*
>>
>>
>> Irrelevant. It is you who missed the point. Who made the mask. Alians ?
>>
>
> Bronze Age Greeks. There is no argument about that.
And who were these bronze age Greeks if not the people that Greek historians
describe. If Agamemnon didn't destroy Troy then who did. If Herakles didn't
destroy Pylos then who did. If the Epigoni dint destroy Thebes then who did.
If Minos wasn't king of Crete then who was. If Romulus didn't found Rome
then who did. Why did these people have tombs or temples. Why did their
fathers and forefathers and children also have tombs and graves and temples
if their bones or relics did not lie in them. Who paid for these place to be
built if they were not kings rich enough to fund them. Why would the people
even bother remembering them if the did not exist. If you say they did not
exist that's like saying Julius Caesar and Augustus did not exist.
>
>>>to have belonged to Agamemnon, and he was king of *Argos*.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Get an education.
>
> Don't talk to me like that, punk: I went to Watford Grammar. Why did
> Aeschylus think Agamemnon was from Argos?
Argos was a region which included Mycenae.
Agamemnon
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:cv70hn$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>
>>>rg wrote:
>>>
>>>>Seanie O'Kilfoyle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why is that ""Greki Lies" ?
>>>>I am asking again, is Carandini greek ?
>>>
>>>Quite a lot of Greek names end in "-i". It is the ancient ending "-is"
>>>iotacised to eta. Eg "Onassis" is really ONASSH in SMG. Katalavenis?
>>>
>>
>>
>> You are talking complete nonsense.
>>
>> A name ending in "-is" is nominative as in O Socratis. If you remove the
>> s you get the vocative, W (bre) Socrati.
>>
> True up to a point, but the Nominative in "-is" no longer exists in SMG.
> On the other hand if you are a Cypriot you speak a bastard dialect and, if
> you are literate at all, are literate in some kind of bastard
> Katharevousa.
IMBECILE. Cypriot is the oldest Greek dialect and the closest to ancient
Greek and Mycenaean. It is the Cypriots who speak the most correct Greek not
the Kalamarades.
lora...@cs.com
Agamemnon wrote:
> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cv70hn$rt2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > rg wrote:
> >> Seanie O'Kilfoyle wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Fagamensknob is a cockney spawn of Cypriot griklings
> >>>
> >>
> >> Why is that ""Greki Lies" ?
> >> I am asking again, is Carandini greek ?
> >
> > Quite a lot of Greek names end in "-i". It is the ancient ending
"-is"
> > iotacised to eta. Eg "Onassis" is really ONASSH in SMG.
Katalavenis?
> >
>
> You are talking complete nonsense.
>
> A name ending in "-is" is nominative as in O Socratis. If you remove
the s
> you get the vocative, W (bre) Socrati.
Yes. The same is still true in (Baltic) Latvian. (Also very ancient)
Uno Hu
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
*ROTFFLMFAOAY*
Shut it Argyrou, the guy sussed you straight away you illiterate
goatherd !
Mbouhahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaar
amin dada
"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" <sea...@gmail.com>
news:1108864674....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
feckin tiurk animal.feckin tiurk recist.feckin tiurk sadhuman.no eu 4
marderer tiurks
Matt Giwer
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Rebus wrote:
>>> Agamemnon wrote:
>>>> When the infants were discovered, the princess was imprisoned and
>>>> the babies
>>>> were set adrift in a basket on the Tiber River ....
>>> strange correlary to other cultural myths like Moses. I wonder why that
>>> would be - what in common (children being put out, set adrift, etc ....
>>> even the Eskimows have such a legend.)
>> If you worshipped every god found on a river there would not be
>> enough days in the week.
>> The best of all records says the Maccabees created the original
>> Greek Old Testament By all the rules that is the original creation of
>> the OT. Later copies in the invented "Hebrew" languate are bogus.
> They were working from Hebrew documents. It may well be the first
> canonical collection, though.
There is no evidence of any pre-existing documents. None have ever been found. That is why the
forged Temple Inscription that surfaced last year caused such interest. If it had been real it would
have been the first indication of a pre-existing document.
The socalled proto-hebrew is indistinguishable from Phoenician. If an inscription is found where
the bible says Israelis lived then it is called proto-hebrew. That is what we call circular. The
squared lettering first appeared in the mid first century BC. Keep in mind the tradition of perfect
copies only of the Torah which is in the square lettering. So either the tradition or the Hebrew
version is more recent than that.
The first person to claim the Greek was a translation was Josephus some three centuries later. He
simply makes the assertion without explanation. How did he know?
If there were older hebrew versions you would expect museums around the world and particularly
those in Israel to have examples of it. You would have expected someone prior to Josephus to have
left some comment on preserving the originals or a mention of the original v. translation.
So by the rule we apply to every other document, the oldest mention of or the oldest copy is the
original, the Greek Septuagint is the original. Else we have to create a special rule for "sacred"
books.
--
As with any successful prostitute, Israel has several
sugardaddies and is ready to do a backflop for any of
them to keep the sugar coming.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3383
gogu
news:421669D2...@tiscali.nl...
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
>> "Jona" <adsl2...@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
>> > Come on. Disagreement is fair because this forum is meant for debate;
>> > but there is no need to insult people.
>>
>> Seanie O'Kilfoyle is a Turkish trolls that pelages s.c.g.
> So the two of you don't like each other.
Not true.
Nobody likes Seanie-TROLL in scg.
Just out of curiosity do a search at google under his more recent screen
names "Yavrukurt", "Seanie O'Kilfoyle", "I am Seanie", etc and you'll see
what I mean...
> I don't mind, but why are the
> other members of this forum forced to those insults? This was meant as a
> thread about ancient Rome.
Seanie is posting only insults, so...
--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A
Coins: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
>
> Jona
>
> --
> Jona Lendering
> http://www.livius.org
Martin Edwards
>>>
>>
>>True up to a point, but the Nominative in "-is" no longer exists in SMG.
>>On the other hand if you are a Cypriot you speak a bastard dialect and, if
>>you are literate at all, are literate in some kind of bastard
>>Katharevousa.
>
>
> IMBECILE. Cypriot is the oldest Greek dialect and the closest to ancient
> Greek and Mycenaean. It is the Cypriots who speak the most correct Greek not
> the Kalamarades.
I am not sure if this clown is joking.
Martin Edwards
Martin Edwards
exists, the -IS ending does not:
1)Sokratis Onassi;
2)Vre, Sokrati Onassi!
Nashty
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>
>>> True up to a point, but the Nominative in "-is" no longer exists in
>>> SMG. On the other hand if you are a Cypriot you speak a bastard
>>> dialect and, if you are literate at all, are literate in some kind of
>>> bastard Katharevousa.
>>
>>
>>
>> IMBECILE. Cypriot is the oldest Greek dialect and the closest to
>> ancient Greek and Mycenaean. It is the Cypriots who speak the most
>> correct Greek not the Kalamarades.
>
>
> I am not sure if this clown is joking.
Sad thing is that he's *dead* serious.
Nicolas
Xtes-00k
>exists, the -IS ending does not:
>1)Sokratis Onassi;
>2)Vre, Sokrati Onassi!
"Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:cvakaj$1lb$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Xtes-00k
"Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:cv7tv2$1f2$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Xtes-00k
>Nicolas
"Nashty" <n...@nogroupthinkmackook.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message news:UFaSd.5872$oh4.2...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
BOK YE APTAL HERIF !
Jason K. Lambrou
>BOK YE APTAL HERIF !
>
>
>
feckin homo queen turd
feckin recistjew fecking homo turd u r.dumbass fatass turd homo queen u
r feckin racist turds allof u
--
The Turks' negativity towards Greeks and Kurds is proof
of their uncivility towards mankind in general and Christians
in particular.
amin dada
"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" <sea...@gmail.com>
news:1109202706....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> BOK YE APTAL HERIF !
>
spok lik a tru tiurk.tiurks r barbaros they no understant art.they only knou
say bok shit.no eu 4 u barbaros tiurks
Curious
suddenly for some reason.
Then you do not accept the standard linguistic derivation I was taught (by
Frederick Bargebeuhr in Germany) : northern Sinai script > Aaramaic>
Old Herbew>modern Hebrew ................ ?
I know what you are saying about the evolution of scriptforms, ending with
the squared alef-bet, but this matterof socalled pro-Hebrew being Phoenician
is all new to me for some reason. Granted I havent been in school for some years! If your scenario is true
then where would the northern Saini script fit
given that Phoenicia was not even a dream that early .... ????
I will wait to hear back Matt ....
jw
Agamemnon
"Curious" <blue...@WhiteShrine.org> wrote in message
news:421D8C05...@WhiteShrine.org...
> Where do the Dead Sea Scrolls fit into your scenario? Im a bit lost here
> suddenly for some reason.
>
> Then you do not accept the standard linguistic derivation I was taught (by
> Frederick Bargebeuhr in Germany) : northern Sinai script > Aaramaic>
> Old Herbew>modern Hebrew ................ ?
>
> I know what you are saying about the evolution of scriptforms, ending with
> the squared alef-bet, but this matterof socalled pro-Hebrew being
> Phoenician
> is all new to me for some reason. Granted I havent been in school for some
> years! If your scenario is true
> then where would the northern Saini script fit
> given that Phoenicia was not even a dream that early .... ????
It's time for you to read some history books.
The written History of Phoenicians goes back to 2200 BC based on Philo
(Eusebius) and the Ras Sharma tablets.
The Cadmain-Phoenician script (ie. modern alphabet) was invented
simultaneously in Greece and Phoenicia in about 1450 BC. By 1200 BC 5 Greek
variants existed on top of the Phoenician variants.
Roger Pearse
> Agamemnon wrote:
> >
> > When the infants were discovered, the princess was imprisoned and
the babies
> > were set adrift in a basket on the Tiber River ....
>
> strange correlary to other cultural myths like Moses. I wonder why
that
> would be
Isn't the commonality simply that unwanted children in hilly areas were
abandoned in the hills; those in riverine areas would be put on a raft
in the river. Such events must have happened a million times. But of
course a lucky few would survive in either case, and come into the
world as adults (usually as slaves) as being of unknown parentage.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Matt Giwer
Top posting is annoying.
> Where do the Dead Sea Scrolls fit into your scenario? Im a bit lost here
> suddenly for some reason.
They are first century BC. There is no conflict.
> Then you do not accept the standard linguistic derivation I was taught (by
> Frederick Bargebeuhr in Germany) : northern Sinai script > Aaramaic>
> Old Herbew>modern Hebrew ................ ?
I recite the known facts. Appeals to authority are logical fallacies. You should ask him how he
reconciles is position with the known facts.
> I know what you are saying about the evolution of scriptforms, ending with
> the squared alef-bet, but this matterof socalled pro-Hebrew being Phoenician
> is all new to me for some reason. Granted I havent been in school for some years!
That is why you are here I guess. It is easy to find so called proto-hebrew and Phoenician on the
web. Compare for yourself. Lots of this stuff isn't in the textbooks in terms of what it means. The
facts themselves are usually there but without explicitely stating the obvious conclusion.
Archaeology established decades ago the entire old testament is myth including Israel. Yet most
texts covering that period will make passing mention of parts of it. It is very embedded in our
culture.
> If your scenario is true
> then where would the northern Saini script fit
> given that Phoenicia was not even a dream that early .... ????
Why is that an issue? Phoenician is pretty much the oldest version of our phonetic spelling. It
appears to predate the Egyptian incorporation of phonetic elements but not enough to be certain
> I will wait to hear back Matt ....
> Matt Giwer wrote:
--
The grave dangers of assimilation.
What a christian hating concept.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3390
o8TY
news:421ddc8f$0$2763$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>
> "Curious" <blue...@WhiteShrine.org> wrote in message
> news:421D8C05...@WhiteShrine.org...
> > Where do the Dead Sea Scrolls fit into your scenario? Im a bit lost
here
> > suddenly for some reason.
> >
> > Then you do not accept the standard linguistic derivation I was taught
(by
> > Frederick Bargebeuhr in Germany) : northern Sinai script > Aaramaic>
> > Old Herbew>modern Hebrew ................ ?
> >
> > I know what you are saying about the evolution of scriptforms, ending
with
> > the squared alef-bet, but this matterof socalled pro-Hebrew being
> > Phoenician
> > is all new to me for some reason. Granted I havent been in school for
some
> > years! If your scenario is true
> > then where would the northern Saini script fit
> > given that Phoenicia was not even a dream that early .... ????
>
> It's time for you to read some history books.
>
> The written History of Phoenicians goes back to 2200 BC based on Philo
> (Eusebius) and the Ras Sharma tablets.
>
Evsebios = ca.3rd c CE?
Ras Sharma = Ras Shamra? = ca.14th c BCE??
Yet according to the ancient Greeks, Phoinikos was descended from Epaphos
ca.17th - 15th c BCE.
> The Cadmain-Phoenician script (ie. modern alphabet) was invented
> simultaneously in Greece and Phoenicia in about 1450 BC. By 1200 BC 5
Greek
> variants existed on top of the Phoenician variants.
>
This seems to contradict your first statement.
Curious
him only because he was (and remains?) a recognised source int his area of research.
see below ...
Matt Giwer wrote:
> Why is that an issue? Phoenician is pretty much the oldest version of our phonetic spelling.
everything Im talking about is pre-phonetic by a long long way. I have no arguement with Phoenician as a
"phonetic" ancestor of related languages,
but Aramaic and Northern Sinai are definately pre-phonetic. (By the way
some claim early Korean was the first phonetic system, not Phoenician).
Let me do some research here. Im just not sure what is being meant by
"proto-Hebrew" especially since you said nothing about Northern Sinai
script which is definately ancestral to Hebrew ...
By the way. I dont want to argue about anythng in this group. Im not here to
argue at all, just to learn and contriobute if possible, otherwise I am
neleq ha'quirit!
shalom -
yermiah
Agamemnon
"o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421ebd3a$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
No it doesn't. The Ras Sharma tablets are written in Cuneiform and based on
the same source as Philo.
Phoenician Chronology
Eusebius Preperatio of the Gospel book 1
CHAPTER X
Philo having explained these points in his preface, next begins his
interpretation of Sanchuniathon by setting forth the theology of the
Phoenicians as follows:
2250 BC Aether
'The first principle of the universe he supposes to have been air dark with
cloud and wind, or rather a blast of cloudy air, and a turbid chaos dark as
Erebus; and these were boundless and for long ages had no limit.
2225 BC Wind, Desire
But when the wind, says he, became enamoured of its own parents, and a
mixture took place, that connexion was called Desire. This was the beginning
of the creation of all things: but the wind itself had no knowledge of its
own creation.
From its connexion Mot was produced, which some say is mud, and others a
putrescence of watery compound; and out of this came every germ of creation,
and the generation of the universe.
2200 BC Mot
So there were certain animals which had no sensation, and out of them grew
intelligent animals, and were called "Zophasemin," that is "observers of
heaven"; and they were formed like the shape of an egg. Also Mot burst forth
into light, and sun, and moon, and stars, and the great constellations.'
Such was their cosmogony, introducing downright atheism. But let us see next
how he states the generation of animals to have arisen. He says, then:
'And when the air burst into light, both the sea and the land became heated,
and thence arose winds and clouds, and very great downpours and floods of
the waters of heaven. So after they were separated, and removed from their
proper place because of the sun's heat, and all met together again in the
air dashing together one against another, thunderings and lightnings were
produced, and at the rattle of the thunder the intelligent animals already
described woke up, and were scared at the sound, and began to move both on
land and sea, male and female.'
Such is their theory of the generation of animals.
2175 BC Sun (Beelsamen), Moon, Stars, Zophasemin
Next after this the same writer adds and says:
'These things were found written in the cosmogony of Taautus, and in his
Commentaries, both from conjectures, and from evidences which his intellect
discerned, and discovered, and made clear to us.'
Next to this, after mentioning the names of the winds Notos and Boreas and
the rest, he continues:
'But these were the first who consecrated the productions of the earth, and
regarded them as gods, and worshipped them as being the support of life both
to themselves, and to those who were to come after them, and to all before
them, and they offered to them drink-offerings and libations.'
2150 BC Colpias, Baau
'These were their notions of worship, corresponding to their own weakness,
and timidity of soul. Then he says that from the wind Colpias and his wife
Baau (which he translates "Night") were born Aeon and Protogonus, mortal
men, so called: and that Aeon discovered the food obtained from trees.
2125 BC Aeon, Protogonus
That their offspring were called Genos and Genea, and inhabited Phoenicia:
and that when droughts occurred, they stretched out their hands to heaven
towards the sun; for him alone (he says) they regarded as god the lord of
heaven, calling him Beelsamen, which is in the Phoenician language "lord of
heaven," and in Greek "Zeus."'
And after this he charges the Greeks with error, saying:
'For it is not without cause that we have explained these things in many
ways, but in view of the later misinterpretations of the names in the
history, which the Greeks in ignorance took in a wrong sense, being deceived
by the ambiguity of the translation.'
Afterwards he says:
2100 BC Genos, Genea
'From Genos, son of Aeon and Protogonus, were begotten again mortal
children, whose names are Light, and Fire, and Flame. These, says he,
discovered fire from rubbing pieces of wood together, and taught the use of
it.
2075 BC Light, Fire, Flame
And they begat sons of surpassing size and stature, whose names were applied
to the mountains which they occupied: so that from them were named mount
Cassius, and Libanus, and Antilibanus, and Brathy.
2050 Cassius, Libanus, Antilibanus, Brathy
From these, he says, were begotten Memrumus and Hypsuranius; and they got
their names, he says, from their mothers, as the women in those days had
free intercourse with any whom they met.'
2025 Memrumus, Hypsuranius, Ousous
Then he says:
'Hypsuranius inhabited Tyre, and contrived huts out of reeds and rushes and
papyrus: and he quarrelled with his brother Ousous, who first invented a
covering for the body from skins of wild beasts which he was strong enough
to capture. And when furious rains and winds occurred, the trees in Tyre
were rubbed against each other and caught fire, and burnt down the wood that
was there. And Ousous took a tree, and, having stripped off the branches,
was the first who ventured to embark on the sea; and he consecrated two
pillars to fire and wind, and worshipped them, and poured libations of blood
upon them from the wild beasts which he took in hunting.
'But when Hypsuranius and Ousous were dead, those who were left, he says,
consecrated staves to them, and year by year worshipped their pillars and
kept festivals in their honour.
1975 Agreus, Halieus
But many years afterwards from the race of Hypsuranius were born Agreus and
Halieus, the inventors of hunting and fishing, from whom were named huntsmen
and fishermen: and from them were born two brethren, discoverers of iron and
the mode of working it; the one of whom, Chrysor, practised oratory, and
incantations, and divinations: and that he was Hephaestus, and invented the
hook, and bait, and line, and raft, and was the first of all men to make a
voyage: wherefore they reverenced him also as a god after his death. And he
was also called Zeus Meilichios. And some say that his brothers invented
walls of brick.
1950 BC Chrysor Hephaestus Zeus Meilichios
Afterwards there sprang from their race two youths, one of whom was called
Technites (Artificer), and the other Geinos Autochthon (Earth-born
Aboriginal).
1925 BC Technites (Artificer), Geinos Autochthon (Earth-born Aboriginal)
These devised the mixing of straw with the clay of bricks, and drying them
in the sun, and moreover invented roofs.
From them others were born, one of whom was called Agros, and the other
Agrueros or Agrotes;
1900 BC Agros, Agrueros or Agrotes
'These two devised the addition to houses of courts, and enclosures, and
caves.
and of the latter there is in Phoenicia a much venerated statue, and a
shrine drawn by yokes of oxen; and among the people of Byblos he is named
pre-eminently the greatest of the gods.
From them came husbandmen and huntsmen. They are also called Aletae and
Titans.
1875 BC Aletae, Titans
From these were born Amynos and Magus, who established villages and
sheepfolds.
1850 BC Amynos, Magus
From them came Misor and Suduc, that is to say "Straight " and "Just": these
discovered the use of salt.
1825 BC Misor, Suduc
'From Misor was born Taautus, who invented the first written alphabet; the
Egyptians called him Thoyth, the Alexandrians Thoth, and the Greeks Hermes.
'From Suduc came the Dioscuri, or Cabeiri, or Corybantes, or Samothraces:
these, he says, first invented a ship. From them have sprung others, who
discovered herbs, and the healing of venomous bites, and charms.
1775 BC Taautus, Dioscuri, or Cabeiri, or Corybantes, or Samothraces
In their time is born a certain Elioun called "the Most High," and a female
named Beruth, and these dwelt in the neighbourhood of Byblos.
1758 BC Elioun "the Most High", Beruth
'And from them is born Epigeius or Autochthon, whom they afterwards called
Uranus; so that from him they named the element above us Uranus because of
the excellence of its beauty. And he has a sister born of the aforesaid
parents, who was called Ge (earth), and from her, he says, because of her
beauty, they called the earth by the same name.
1740 BC Epigeius or Autochthon or Uranus, Ge
And their father, the Most High, died in an encounter with wild beasts, and
was deified, and his children offered to him libations and sacrifices.
1733 BC
'And Uranus, having succeeded to his father's rule, takes to himself in
marriage his sister Ge, and gets by her four sons, Elus who is also Kronos,
and Baetylus, and Dagon who is Siton, and Atlas. Also by other wives Uranus
begat a numerous progeny; on which account Ge was angry, and from jealousy
began to reproach Uranus, so that they even separated from each other.
'But Uranus, after he had left her, used to come upon her with violence,
whenever he chose, and consort with her, and go away again; he used to try
also to destroy his children by her; but Ge repelled him many times, having
gathered to herself allies.
1715 BC Elus or Kronos, Baetylus, Dagon who is Siton, Atlas, Hermes
Trismegistus
And when Kronos had advanced to manhood, he, with the counsel and help of
Hermes Trismegistus (who was his secretary), repels his father Uranus, and
avenges his mother.
'To Kronos are born children, Persephone and Athena. The former died a
virgin: but by the advice of Athena and Hermes Kronos made a sickle and a
spear of iron. Then Hermes talked magical words to the allies of Kronos, and
inspired them with a desire of fighting against Uranus on behalf of Ge. And
thus Kronos engaged in war, and drove Uranus from his government, and
succeeded to the kingdom.
Also there was taken in the battle the beloved concubine of Uranus, being
great with child, whom Kronos gave in marriage to Dagon. And in his house
she gave birth to the child begotten of Uranus, which she named Demarus.
'After this Kronos builds a wall round his own dwelling, and founds the
first city, Byblos in Phoenicia.
1710 BC Descendants of the Dioscuri
'Soon after this he became suspicious of his own brother Atlas, and, with
the advice of Hermes, threw him into a deep pit and buried him. At about
this time the descendants of the Dioscuri put together rafts and ships, and
made voyages; and, being cast ashore near Mount Cassius, consecrated a
temple there. And the allies of Elus, who is Kronos, were surnamed Eloim, as
these same, who were surnamed after Kronos, would have been called Kronii.
1701 BC Sadidus, Astarte, Ehea, Dione, Eimarmene and Hora
'And Kronos, having a son Sadidus, dispatched him with his own sword,
because he regarded him with suspicion, and deprived him of life, thus
becoming the murderer of his son. In like manner he cut off the head of a
daughter of his own; so that all the gods were dismayed at the disposition
of Kronos.
'But as time went on Uranus, being in banishment, secretly sends his maiden
daughter Astarte with two others her sisters, Ehea and Dione, to slay Kronos
by craft. But Kronos caught them, and though they were his sisters, made
them his wedded wives. And when Uranus knew it, he sent Eimarmene and Hora
with other allies on an expedition against Kronos. and these Kronos won over
to his side and kept with him.
'Further, he says, the god Uranus devised the Baetylia, having contrived to
put life into stones. And to Kronos there were born of Astarte seven
daughters, Titanides or Artemides: and again to the same there were born of
Rhea seven sons, of whom the youngest was deified at his birth; and of Dione
females, and of Astarte again two males, Desire and Love. And Dagon, after
he discovered corn and the plough, was called Zeus Arotrios.
'And one of the Titanides united to Suduc, who is named the Just, gives
birth to Asclepius.
'In Peraea also there were born to Kronos three sons, Kronos of the same
name with his father, and Zeus Belus, and Apollo.
In their time are born Pontus, and Typhon,
1697 BC Demarus, Pontus
'To Kronos are born children, Persephone and Athena. The former died a
virgin:
And to Demarus is born Melcathrus, who is also called Hercules.
'And from Pontus is born Sidon (who from the exceeding sweetness of her
voice was the first to invent musical song) and Poseidon.
1683 BC Titanides or Artemides, Desire, Love, Suduc, Kronos, Zeus Belus,
Apollo, Adodus, Muth or Thanatos or Pluto
'Then again Uranus makes war against Pontus, and after revolting attaches
himself to Demarus, and Demarus attacks Pontus, but Pontus puts him to
flight; and Demarus vowed an offering if he should escape.
but by the advice of Athena and Hermes Kronos made a sickle and a spear of
iron.
'And in the thirty-second year of his power and kingdom Elus, that is
Kronos, having waylaid his father Uranus in an inland spot, and got him into
his hands, emasculates him near some fountains and rivers. There Uranus was
deified: and as he breathed his last, the blood from his wounds dropped into
the fountains and into the waters of the rivers, and the spot is pointed out
to this day.'
This, then, is the story of Kronos, and such are the glories of the mode of
life, so vaunted among the Greeks, of men in the days of Kronos, whom they
also affirm to have been the first and 'golden race of articulate speaking
men,' that blessed happiness of the olden time!
Again, the historian adds to this, after other matters:
'But Astarte, the greatest goddess, and Zeus Demarus, and Adodus king of
gods, reigned over the country with the consent of Kronos. And Astarte set
the head of a bull upon her own head as a mark of royalty; and in travelling
round the world she found a star that had fallen from the sky, which she
took up and consecrated in the holy island Tyre. And the Phoenicians say
that Astarte is Aphrodite.
1680 BC Melcathrus Hercules
1673 BC Athena, Sidon, Poseidon
The same author, in his History of the Jews, further writes thus concerning
Kronos:
'Kronos also, in going round the world, gives the kingdom of Attica to his
own daughter Athena. But on the occurrence of a pestilence and mortality
Kronos offers his only begotten son as a whole burnt-offering to his father
Uranus, and circumcises himself, compelling his allies also to do the same.
And not long after another of his sons by Rhea, named Muth, having died, he
deifies him, and the Phoenicians call him Thanatos and Pluto.
And after this Kronos gives the city Byblos to the goddess Baaltis, who is
also called Dione, and Berytus to Poseidon and to the Cabeiri and Agrotae
and Halieis, who also consecrated the remains of Pontus at Berytus.
'But before this the god Tauthus imitated the features of the gods who were
his companions, Kronos, and Dagon, and the rest, and gave form to the sacred
characters of the letters. He also devised for Kronos as insignia of royalty
four eyes in front and behind . . . but two of them quietly closed, and upon
his shoulders four wings, two as spread for flying, and two as folded.
'And the symbol meant that Kronos could see when asleep, and sleep while
waking: and similarly in the case of the wings, that he flew while at rest,
and was at rest when flying. But to each of the other gods he gave two wings
upon the shoulders, as meaning that they accompanied Kronos in his flight.
And to Kronos himself again he gave two wings upon his head, one
representing the all-ruling mind, and one sensation.
1665 BC Nereus
and Nereus father of Pontus and son of Belus.
1658 BC Tauthus, Cabeirim, Asclepius, Iedud
'And when Kronos came into the South country he gave all Egypt to the god
Tauthus, that it might be his royal dwelling-place. And these things, he
says, were recorded first by Suduc's seven sons the Cabeiri, and their
eighth brother Asclepius, as the god Tauthus commanded them.
And soon after he says:
'It was a custom of the ancients in great crises of danger for the rulers of
a city or nation, in order to avert the common ruin, to give up the most
beloved of their children for sacrifice as a ransom to the avenging daemons;
and those who were thus given up were sacrificed with mystic rites. Kronos
then, whom the Phoenicians call Elus, who was king of the country and
subsequently, after his decease, was deified as the star Saturn, had by a
nymph of the country named Anobret an only begotten son, whom they on this
account called ledud, the only begotten being still so called among the
Phoenicians; and when very great dangers from war had beset the country, he
arrayed his son in royal apparel, and prepared an altar, and sacrificed
him.'
1628 BC Pontus, Typhon
In their time are born Pontus, and Typhon,
1596 BC Poseidon, Sidon
'And from Pontus is born Sidon (who from the exceeding sweetness of her
voice was the first to invent musical song) and Poseidon.
1437 BC Eisirius or Celix, Chna or Phoenix, Cadmus
'All these stories Thabion, who was the very first hierophant of all the
Phoenicians from the beginning, allegorized and mixed up with the physical
and cosmical phenomena, and delivered to the prophets who celebrated the
orgies and inaugurated the mysteries: and they, purposing to increase their
vain pretensions from every source, handed them on to their successors and
to their foreign visitors: one of these was Eisirius the inventor of the
three letters, brother of Chna the first who had his name changed to
Phoenix.'
Then again afterwards he adds:
'But the Greeks, surpassing all in genius, appropriated most of the earliest
stories, and then variously decked them out with ornaments of tragic phrase,
and adorned them in every way, with the purpose of charming by the pleasant
fables. Hence Hesiod and the celebrated Cyclic poets framed theogonies of
their own, and battles of the giants, and battles of Titans, and
castrations; and with these fables, as they travelled about, they conquered
and drove out the truth.
'But our ears having grown up in familiarity with their fictions, and being
for long ages pre-occupied, guard as a trust the mythology which they
received, just as I said at the beginning; and this mythology, being aided
by time, has made its hold difficult for us to escape from, so that the
truth is thought to be nonsense, and the spurious narrative truth.'
Let these suffice as quotations from the writings of Sanchuniathon,
translated by Philo of Byblos, and approved as true by the testimony of
Porphyry the philosopher.
c.1300 BC Sourmoubelos, Thuro Eusarthis
'Tauthus, whom the Egyptians call Thoyth, excelled in wisdom among the
Phoenicians, and was the first to rescue the worship of the gods from the
ignorance of the vulgar, and arrange it in the order of intelligent
experience. Many generations after him a god Sourmoubelos and Thuro, whose
name was changed to Eusarthis, brought to light the theology of Tauthus
which had been hidden and overshadowed, by allegories.'
Again see what the same author, in his translation from Sanchuniathon about
the Phoenician alphabet, says concerning the reptiles and venomous beasts,
which contribute no good service to mankind, but work death and destruction
to any in whom they inject their incurable and fatal poison. This also he
describes, saying word for word as follows:
'The nature then of the dragon and of serpents Tauthus himself regarded as
divine, and so again after him did the Phoenicians and Egyptians: for this
animal was declared by him to be of all reptiles most full of breath, and
fiery. In consequence of which it also exerts an unsurpassable swiftness by
means of its breath, without feet and hands or any other of the external
members by which the other animals make their movements. It also exhibits
forms of various shapes, and in its progress makes spiral leaps as swift as
it chooses. It is also most long-lived, and its nature is to put off its old
skin, and so not only to grow young again, but also to assume a larger
growth; and after it has fulfilled its appointed measure of age, it is
self-consumed, in like manner as Tauthus himself has set down in his sacred
books: for which reason this animal has also been adopted in temples and in
mystic rites.
'We have spoken more fully about it in the memoirs entitled Ethothiae, in
which we prove that it is immortal, and is self-consumed, as is stated
before: for this animal does not die by a natural death, but only if struck
by a violent blow. The Phoenicians call it "Good Daemon": in like manner the
Egyptians also surname it Cneph; and they add to it the head of a hawk
because of the hawk's activity.
'Epeïs also (who is called among them a chief hierophant and sacred scribe,
and whose work was translated [into Greek] by Areius of Heracleopolis),
speaks in an allegory word for word as follows:
'The first and most divine being is a serpent with the form of a hawk,
extremely graceful, which whenever he opened his eyes filled all with light
in his original birthplace, but if he shut his eyes, darkness came on.'
'Epeïs here intimates that he is also of a fiery substance, by saying "he
shone through," for to shine through is peculiar to light. From the
Phoenicians Pherecydes also took the first ideas of his theology concerning
the god called by him Ophion and concerning the Ophionidae, of whom we shall
speak again.
'Moreover the Egyptians, describing the world from the same idea, engrave
the circumference of a circle, of the colour of the sky and of fire, and a
hawk-shaped serpent stretched across the middle of it, and the whole shape
is like our Theta (?), representing the circle as the world, and signifying
by the serpent which connects it in the middle the good daemon.
'Zoroaster also the Magian, in the Sacred Collection of Persian Records,
says in express words: "And god has the head of a hawk. He is the first,
incorruptible, eternal, uncreated, without parts, most unlike (all else),
the controller of all good, who cannot be bribed, the best of all the good,
the wisest of all wise; and he is also a father of good laws and justice,
self-taught, natural, and perfect, and wise, and the sole author of the
sacred power of nature.
'The same also is said of him by Ostanes in the book entitled Octateuch.'
From Tauthus, as is said above, all received their impulse towards
physiological systems: and having built temples they consecrated in the
shrines the primary elements represented by serpents, and in their honour
celebrated festivals, and sacrifices, and mystic rites, regarding them as
the greatest gods, and rulers of the universe. So much concerning serpents.
Such then is the character of the theology of the Phoenicians, from which
the word of salvation in the gospel teaches us to flee with averted eyes,
and earnestly to seek the remedy for this madness of the ancients. It must
be manifest that these are not fables and poets' fictions containing some
theory concealed in hidden meanings, but true testimonies, as they would
themselves say, of wise and ancient theologians, containing things of
earlier date than all poets and historians, and deriving the credibility of
their statements from the names and history of the gods still prevailing in
the cities and villages of Phoenicia, and from the mysteries celebrated
among each people: so that it is no longer necessary to search out violent
physical explanations of these things, since the evidence which the facts
bring with them of themselves is quite clear. Such then is the theology of
the Phoenicians: but it is now time to pass on and examine carefully the
case of the Egyptians.
[PHILO BYBLIUS] 'It was a custom of the ancients in the great crises of
danger for the rulers of a city or nation, in order to avert the general
destruction, to give up the most beloved of their children for sacrifice as
a ransom to the avenging daemons: and those who were so given up were slain
with mystic rites. Kronos, therefore, whom the Phoenicians call El, who was
king of the country, and subsequently, after his decease, was deified and
changed into the star Saturn, had by a nymph of the same country called
Anobret an only-begotten son (whom on this account they called Jeiid, the
only-begotten being still so called among the Phoenicians); and when extreme
dangers from war had befallen the country, he arrayed his son in royal
apparel, and prepared an altar and sacrificed him.'
Matt Giwer
> Sorry Matt I didnt mean tooffend. Bargebeuhr is long dead ... I mentioned
> him only because he was (and remains?) a recognised source int his area of research.
What offense?
> see below ...
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Why is that an issue? Phoenician is pretty much the oldest version of our phonetic spelling.
> everything Im talking about is pre-phonetic by a long long way. I have no arguement with Phoenician as a
> "phonetic" ancestor of related languages, but Aramaic and Northern Sinai are definately pre-phonetic.
Then I have to ask you what such references would have to do with the thread. You asked after Dead
Sea scrolls. I observed the "recent" appearance of the squared script and the indistinguishability
of the earlier script called proto-hebrew and noted that naming is circular bible reasoning so it is
not related to the square script.
Even my ego does not permit me to go much further back than Phoenician.
>(By the way some claim early Korean was the first phonetic system, not Phoenician).
I said "our" assuming you are European or related to it.
> Let me do some research here. Im just not sure what is being meant by
> "proto-Hebrew" especially since you said nothing about Northern Sinai
> script which is definately ancestral to Hebrew ...
Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
The claim of ancestral needs much more than being found where the bible says Israelites lived. To
rely only on that is circular. And as archaeology finds no signs of biblical Israelites you can't go
any place with that without first finding evidence they really existed. Being an earlier language in
bibleland does not make it related to Hebrew. But many biblehuggers want that to be true without
further evidence.
> By the way. I dont want to argue about anythng in this group. Im not here to
> argue at all, just to learn and contriobute if possible, otherwise I am
> neleq ha'quirit!
Debate, argue, discuss, whatever. The faceless anonymity permits an openness unavailable in other
forums. And no one holds grudges. You have to work to make enemies.
--
Oddly illegal immigrants are guaranteed to be
better workers than legal immigrants.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3367
Curious
Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
>
> The claim of ancestral needs much more than being found where the bible says Israelites lived. To
> rely only on that is circular. And as archaeology finds no signs of biblical Israelites
Do you discount the Merneptah stela which dates around 1210bc? This mentions Israel (the people) by name.
Martin Edwards
>
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>
>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>
>
> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
What he is saying is "not in any form later found in the the OT". He is
actually right about that, but ignores, as you say, non-Hebrew sources
for the existence of Israel. I have just started another thread on
this. Mr Giwer has a few points worthy of consideration but, like his
religous adversaries, tends to resort to abuse when tripped up.
Agamemnon
"Curious" <robtb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4226D046...@yahoo.com...
>
>
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>
>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized
>> today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>
> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are
> saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
>
If the Hebrews wrote the OT in Hebrew then why does the Hebrew text contain
explanations of names like Israel = He fights with God, and Betel = House of
God. If these words were originally in the Jews own language in the original
text they would already know the meaning of these names. It is blatantly
obvious that the Jews NEVER wrote the text the OT was based on. It was
written in EGYPTIAN since Syria-Palestine was part of Egypt and then
translated into GREEK by the Ptolomys and then into Hebrew which is when God
was added at the time of the Maccabees in 168 BC by changing all the proper
names of Kings, Pharaohs, and Phoenician and other deities to YHWH meaning
the LORD whose name was that of a 15th Dynasty Pharaoh that came form
Palestine.
>
>>
>> The claim of ancestral needs much more than being found where the bible
>> says Israelites lived. To
>> rely only on that is circular. And as archaeology finds no signs of
>> biblical Israelites
>
> Do you discount the Merneptah stela which dates around 1210bc? This
> mentions Israel (the people) by name.
It refers to Israel as TERRITORY. The bible says there was no such territory
called Israel before the reign of Joshua so clearly it does not refer to
anything biblical but the Israelites have named themselves after a territory
that Merneptah had completely destroyed and which they repopulated under
Ramses III his successor.
The Merneptah stela also refers to Apiru or Hebrews who are different from
Isreal. Figure it out. Why so many names, Jews, Hebrews, Israelites. These
are all different peoples.
Agamemnon
> Curious wrote:
>>
>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized
>>> today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>>
>>
>> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are
>> saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
>> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
>
> What he is saying is "not in any form later found in the the OT". He is
> actually right about that, but ignores, as you say, non-Hebrew sources for
> the existence of Israel. I have just started another thread on
Except the non-Hebrew sources contradict the bible.
Israel is said to have existed in 1200 BC yeas was not founded until Joshua
in the reign of Ramses III since after Joshua's death Rameses gave all of
Palestine to Assur-Risilim of Assyria the father of Tiglath Pilaser I by the
bibles own admission and his reign was in 1150 BC. On top of that at the
same time the Egyptians mention Israel they also mention Hebrews as a
completely different unrelated people. Egyptian sources say the Hebrews
attacked and occupied Egypt but the bible says the opposite.
Martin Edwards
> "Martin Edwards" <buzza...@fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:d06k31$2g0$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>
>>Curious wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized
>>>>today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>>>
>>>
>>>I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are
>>>saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
>>>any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
>>
>>What he is saying is "not in any form later found in the the OT". He is
>>actually right about that, but ignores, as you say, non-Hebrew sources for
>>the existence of Israel. I have just started another thread on
>
>
> Except the non-Hebrew sources contradict the bible.
>
> Israel is said to have existed in 1200 BC yeas was not founded until Joshua
> in the reign of Ramses III since after Joshua's death Rameses gave all of
> Palestine to Assur-Risilim of Assyria the father of Tiglath Pilaser I by the
> bibles own admission and his reign was in 1150 BC. On top of that at the
> same time the Egyptians mention Israel they also mention Hebrews as a
> completely different unrelated people. Egyptian sources say the Hebrews
> attacked and occupied Egypt but the bible says the opposite.
>
future Israel could have been one of the Hebrew peoples. I am not
contending that all of the OT is true, merely asking for a little
caution on the part of some posters.
Matt Giwer
>
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are saying
> there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
I said what is called "proto-hebrew" is phoenician because it cannot be distinguished from
phoenician. The current "Hebrew" script dates from the first century BC.
>>The claim of ancestral needs much more than being found where the bible says Israelites lived. To
>>rely only on that is circular. And as archaeology finds no signs of biblical Israelites
> Do you discount the Merneptah stela which dates around 1210bc? This mentions
>Israel (the people) by name.
Even if it is taken as the biblehuggers would like it to be taken it says nothing whatsoever which
would raise the OT above the level of myth. In the far future would finding a mention of Dayton be
evidence of the 20th century superpower of Dayton?
Fact is there are several different translations of it which give different meanings. Even the word
translated Israel can be translated differently. I was surprised when I googled it and compared
several of them.
--
Thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars
to install an islamic government in Iraq. That is
something only a Texan could do.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3385
http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Matt Giwer
> Curious wrote:
>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as recognized
>>> today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are
>> saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
>> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
> What he is saying is "not in any form later found in the the OT". He is
> actually right about that, but ignores, as you say, non-Hebrew sources
> for the existence of Israel. I have just started another thread on
> this. Mr Giwer has a few points worthy of consideration but, like his
> religous adversaries, tends to resort to abuse when tripped up.
When biblehuggers insist upon returning to the same arguments without answering my response to it
there is no reason to continue the exchange because it ceases to be an exchange.
--
If the Israelis fighting settlement evacuation realized how
many of Israel's enemies are hoping it leads to civil war
they would support evacuation in a heartbeat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3374
http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Matt Giwer
And the archaeological evidence for this Israel is what?
--
Security at presidential press conferences is so good
a man can use a fake name and pass the background
check. Or are there no background checks?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3380
http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Martin Edwards
>> You are right here, but "Hebrews" or it's root meant "nomads". The
>> future Israel could have been one of the Hebrew peoples. I am not
>> contending that all of the OT is true, merely asking for a little
>> caution on the part of some posters.
>
>
> And the archaeological evidence for this Israel is what?
>
--
Martin Edwards
> Martin Edwards wrote:
>
>> Curious wrote:
>
>
>>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>
>>>> Keep in mind the only known examples of "Hebrew" as
>>>> recognized today postdate the Greek Septuagint.
>
>
>>> I havent the faintest idea what you are saying here. I assume you are
>>> saying there are no samples of 'Hebrew in
>>> any form" before 300BC? (septuagint date).
>
>
>> What he is saying is "not in any form later found in the the OT". He
>> is actually right about that, but ignores, as you say, non-Hebrew
>> sources for the existence of Israel. I have just started another
>> thread on this. Mr Giwer has a few points worthy of consideration but,
>> like his
>> religous adversaries, tends to resort to abuse when tripped up.
>
>
> When biblehuggers insist upon returning to the same arguments
> without answering my response to it there is no reason to continue the
> exchange because it ceases to be an exchange.
>
Matt Giwer
How can a person accept anything without physical evidence and still be considered rational?
>>> You are right here, but "Hebrews" or it's root meant "nomads". The
>>> future Israel could have been one of the Hebrew peoples. I am not
>>> contending that all of the OT is true, merely asking for a little
>>> caution on the part of some posters.
>> And the archaeological evidence for this Israel is what?
--
Sixty years after the liberation of Auschwitz we still have
survivors out the ying-yang. Who the hell did they kill?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3377
http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Curious
(Torah), even the socalled Exodus much
less 'Captivity'. That and the actual origin date of the OT (and where), I dont
think archaeology or linguistics is on Matt's side. Obviously somebody with writing either derived from Phoenician or
from the earlier Proto-Sinaitic existed
in the highlands above the Caananite empire and these people, like most people,
had a name for themselves. Some say that was Israel. Archaeology in this area
has documented the early (old square) Hebrew script on pot sherds etc. Likewise
it has documented something resembling the 'northern sinai script' which I take to
be closely related to Proto-Sinaitic, the root for both Ugaritic and Phoenician
according to current scholarship. I am also awaiting further hard evidence.
Rob
Curious
it proves this simple.
Rob
Martin Edwards
>> Look again at *my* posts. I never said there was any.
>
>
> How can a person accept anything without physical evidence and still
> be considered rational?
>
I have no definite position on this, but lean towards some, possibly
very inflated and distorted, factual basis. Whether you consider me
rational is beside the point: there are also historians here.
R.Schenck
>: A
> 3,700-square-foot palace, 1,130 square feet of which were covered and
> the rest courtyard. There was a monumental entrance, and elaborate
> furnishings and ceramics.
>
Isn't this rather huge for its era? Especially if the city is just being
started? Surely if it were important enough to sustain and even warrrant a
lavish regal palace then that would mean that the city had existed for some
time?
Truley intereting.
Agamemnon
"R.Schenck" <nygdan_mo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38vd1qF...@individual.net...
Rome existed since the time of the Trojan War.
>
> Truley intereting.
nygdan_mo...@yahoo.com
big from that period?