Ex Greek Royals on ABC's 20 20
Chloe
Sakoulakis
He is not a GREEK Royal
Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
We don't need royals
"Chloe" <em...@email.net> wrote in message
news:40b45c17$0$16573$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/World/2020_royals_040514-2.html
gogu
news:c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be...
> He was never a GREEK Royal
>
> He is not a GREEK Royal
>
> Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
>
> We don't need royals
Well, in a certain extend I agree about the (non) need of the Royals, but
true is that
there was *never* a Greek royal!
All of them were foreigners...
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> Ο "Sakoulakis" <sakou...@pathfinder.gr> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be...
> > He was never a GREEK Royal
> >
> > He is not a GREEK Royal
> >
> > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> >
> > We don't need royals
>
>
> Well, in a certain extend I agree about the (non) need of the Royals, but
> true is that
> there was *never* a Greek royal!
> All of them were foreigners...
Typical reaction from one of the brain-dead komatoskyla!
It is quite "amusing" that you and your "progressive" ilk consider anyone
who "declares" themselves "Greek" (via illegal immigration or
"education")... except of course for Constantinos and his family. Mind you,
Constantinos himself was born in Hellas, has a "Greek" education, received
an Olympic gold medal for Hellas... and at some point was the RECOGNIZED
king of Hellas (by the same asswipes who today deny his entry into the
country, but 40 years ago were licking his feet). Having been a king, and
having extensive family ties with other European royalty... well, that makes
one royalty (if you believe in such nonsense).
It is quite pathetic on the part of the so-called "democrats" (komatoskyla)
to deny basic human rights to citizens of Hellas, simply because they have a
deep-rooted fear of the public revolting against their oligarchy. The former
King is in no position to campaign against the corruption of power by the
oligarchy. On a historic and democratic point, it should be noted that he
was deposed undemocratically by not being allowed to campaign on his behalf
(thanks to that great "democrat" Karamanlis).
The entire affair appears quite comical. It is customary to call people by
their title/position well after they have relinquished that role. But who
needs to point out reason when the political dogs are out there trying to
out-do each other to prove their "loyalty" to their masters?
Honestly, if this matter did not result in the Hellenic public having to pay
out millions in compensation (thanks to the human rights violations of
"democratic" governments), it would be comical. However, it is yet another
tragic reminder of the pathetic political situation that exists in Hellas.
But I'll be entertained to listen to any of you political "gliftes" tell me
how justified it is to "legalize" one million illegals (and furnish them
with political rights), and yet deny basic human rights (as the ECHR ruled)
to a man who was born in Hellas and was once a recognized (by ERE, EK,
internationally, etc) as head of state!
Dorian West
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> news:c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be...
> > He was never a GREEK Royal
> >
> > He is not a GREEK Royal
> >
> > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> >
> > We don't need royals
>
>
> Well, in a certain extend I agree about the (non) need of the Royals, but
> true is that
> there was *never* a Greek royal!
> All of them were foreigners...
Were Alexander, Leonidas, Philip, Olympias, Basil Bulgaroctanus, Michael
Comnenos, Persues, Demetrius and Pyrhus not Greek royals?
Nashton
Megale dhmokrath!! Opoios den sumfwnei me to koproskylo to Pilarino
einai h komatoskylo, h antidhmokraths h hli8ios.
Toulaxiston meneis sthn Amerikh, ekei pou anhkeis, sthn Ellada sa se
eixan parei me tis sapies tomates.
EUGE DHMOKRATH!!
Nicolas
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
"Dionysios Pipilarinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> wrote in message
news:MpBtc.64797$mX.21...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Ο "Sakoulakis" <sakou...@pathfinder.gr> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> > news:c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be...
> > > He was never a GREEK Royal
> > >
> > > He is not a GREEK Royal
> > >
> > > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> > >
> > > We don't need royals
Not even the Gypsy Kings ?
Mwahahahahahahar
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
"Dorian West" <westd...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:40b6ee7d$0$8988$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
No digger, the were the backing vocalists in the famous AustralASIAN
wanna-be greekling band "The Gypsy Kings"
Their 3rd rate support act was a band called "Nude" a gay gimpy leather clad
outfit with a Dr. Mwahahahahahahar Duh'rian west playing Marakas (or was it
Malakas ?)
*ROTFFLMFAOAYYC*
gogu
I was talking about if Greek blood is running in their veins or not!
Not what they feel!
Even a MORON FASCIST like you can't deny the fact that their ethnicity is
*NOT* Greek!
But a fascist animal like you can't be bright enough to understand such
simple things ;-)))
Now get lost, crawl back under your rock in your wormhole and take your
friend Henrietta with you ;-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "the FASCIST JERK Dionysios Pi-pi-la(t)rinos"
<dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:MpBtc.64797$mX.21...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
++
> He was never a GREEK Royal
>
> He is not a GREEK Royal
>
> Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
>
> We don't need royals
Greece has never had native royals. Even Phlip, Alexander and the
rest of the Macedonian royals came from outside to conquer and rule
Greece.
Why Greece (or Bulgaria, for that matter) would need a batch of
Germans to rule it is beyond me....
gogu
news:40b6ee7d$0$8988$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Come on Dorian, you know what I am talking about; we are talking about the
Greek royals of the modern era, that is *after* the liberation of Greece
from the Turks, after 1821!
All the above you are mentioning there were *never* kings of "Greece"
because simply Greece was not existing then!
Can you name me one Greek royal of Greek ancestry after 1821?...
gogu
news:97051eb6.04052...@posting.google.com...
> "Sakoulakis" <sakou...@pathfinder.gr> wrote in message
news:<c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be>...
> > He was never a GREEK Royal
> >
> > He is not a GREEK Royal
> >
> > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> >
> > We don't need royals
>
>
> Greece has never had native royals. Even Phlip, Alexander and the
> rest of the Macedonian royals came from outside to conquer and rule
> Greece.
You are an IGNORANT PRICK Gavlina!
They were GREEK and you are DYING of jealousy, you good to nothing heretic!
> Why Greece (or Bulgaria, for that matter) would need a batch of
> Germans to rule it is beyond me....
And why you are existing is beyond us...
If you were a Spartan (you wish...) you would finish to Keadas.
No get lost back in your wormhole, you are nothing but slav invaders.
Romaios
are. Once these EX Greek royals decide that it is not anymore beneath
their dignity to get a surname then they could claim Greek citizenship
and come live in Greece and run for an office (Symeon in Bulgaria has
done so). But these EX Royals will never again occupied a public
office in Greece because of the right of their birth. What are the
chances that any one of these ex-royals will ever be elected by the
Greek voters? Zero.
Romaios
Sakoulakis wrote:
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Romaios
If Constantine Whatever decides to adopt a surname then he can go back
to Greece and run for an election. The point is that Constantine lives
still in dream world and he does not want to accept that he is not any
more King, and that present day Greece is a Democracy and not a Kingdom.
The illegal aliens that get their Greek papers (Greek Green Card???)
have a surname and they do not suffer from Constantine's Whatever
illusions.
Any Greek citizen's son or daughter should have the right to be elected
to the highest office in our country if he/she is capable. Why should
Greeks have someone that becomes the leader of the nation just by the
right of birth, without competing in an election, and he occupies the
position for life. This is not a small family business for someonbe to
inherit it. Even in the biggests corporations today the chief executive
(s) are elected and do not serve for life.
At any rate Pilarine, you and I and our children and grand children
will die, hopefully of old age, but we will never see another King as
head of our nation. It is 37 years since we kicked the King out of
Greece in 1967. When we kicked them out in 1923, they came back in
1936, that is 13 years later. If you have any money, you bet that in
2017 we will celebrate the jubillee of having kick them out.
Romaios
Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Yo, BOZO ;-)
Nice to talk to you too, anonymous coward.
> I was talking about if Greek blood is running in their veins or not!
> Not what they feel!
Come on now... you are beginning to sound like a "Xrisaugiti"! Since when
did your ilk ever defend the position of homogeneous Hellenic blood (that
has been unaltered by the DNA of other races, nationalities, or other
non-Hellenic populations)? When did you and your boot-licking kind ever
worry about the non-Hellenic origin of your political bosses (whether that
was Evert or Simitis)? When did you beggars concern yourselves about the
non-Hellenic blood (Turkish in some cases) of some of your MP's? It's as
clear as daylight that you are a hypocrite on the issue.
> Even a MORON FASCIST like you can't deny the fact that their ethnicity is
> *NOT* Greek!
No, it isn't. Now what is your point? The term used by the original poster
was "Greek Royals". The term does not necessarily imply their ethnicity, but
it does accurately describe the Greek citizens that were recognized as head
of state (of Greece). The term is accurate, as uncomfortable as it makes
some of you. On a historic point, it should be noted that no European
"Royals" (going back to the classical Hellenic kings) were ethnically
"pure".
> But a fascist animal like you can't be bright enough to understand such
> simple things ;-)))
Only a moron would assume that using the term "Greek" implies nationality.
> Now get lost, crawl back under your rock in your wormhole and take your
> friend Henrietta with you ;-)
I didn't expect you to provide a reasoned response. Now go kiss some
politico ass so that they can "Hellenize" a few million more non-Hellenes
(for money, for sport, for political philosophy, etc).
Imagine this! We have Gogu the Roumanian turd defending the cause of
Hellenic homogeneity. I pray to G_d (that's God for the rest of us) that the
end is not near! Hehe...
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Nashton" <na...@smash.cash> wrote in message
news:2XEtc.49022$Np3.2...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
Or all three - like you so greatly exemplify.
> Toulaxiston meneis sthn Amerikh, ekei pou anhkeis, sthn Ellada sa se
> eixan parei me tis sapies tomates.
What would you know about Hellas or Hellenes, you Canook? Stick to posting
to USENET about imaginary dead cousins and leave the tomatoes alone.
> EUGE DHMOKRATH!!
Once again, you have surprised me with your ability to counter the facts
posted - ONE by ONE!
> Nicolas
Dorian West
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ο "Dorian West" <westd...@yahoo.com.au> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:40b6ee7d$0$8988$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> > "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > > Ο "Sakoulakis" <sakou...@pathfinder.gr> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> > > news:c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be...
> > > > He was never a GREEK Royal
> > > >
> > > > He is not a GREEK Royal
> > > >
> > > > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> > > >
> > > > We don't need royals
>
>
> > > Well, in a certain extend I agree about the (non) need of the Royals,
> but
> > > true is that
> > > there was *never* a Greek royal!
> > > All of them were foreigners...
>
>
> > Were Alexander, Leonidas, Philip, Olympias, Basil Bulgaroctanus, Michael
> > Comnenos, Persues, Demetrius and Pyrhus not Greek royals?
>
>
> Come on Dorian, you know what I am talking about; we are talking about the
> Greek royals of the modern era, that is *after* the liberation of Greece
> from the Turks, after 1821!
> All the above you are mentioning there were *never* kings of "Greece"
> because simply Greece was not existing then!
> Can you name me one Greek royal of Greek ancestry after 1821?...
Well, I would name the Greeks that are descendants of such people. When I
was in university, I knew 2 Greeks with surnames Lascaris and Comnenos. They
may well be descendants of those emperors. I never asked as it was years
later when I came across those names.
gogu
We all know that you are JEALOUS about been a TURK, but please do all us
GREEKS a favor and get lost:-)))
We all can feel your PAIN and FRUSTRATION, but a shrink would be a most
adequate help for you ;-)
Your hatred, your FASCISM, you incoherent rumblings are well know to this
ng, so no wonder your "polite" reply ;-)))
Now go back under the rock out and tell us more mambo jumbo about your
beloved FASCIST junta, your beloved Papadopoulos (I hope you'll meet him
soon:-)), and the rest of the CRIMINAL homos of the junta:-)))
You are a shame for your country TURKEY my little PRICK:-)
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:ugTtc.100489$Nn4.21...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
Sure, and they are Greek if they feel Greek!
But here we were saying if there are ethnic Greek royals in Greece!
And they are not!
> When I
> was in university, I knew 2 Greeks with surnames Lascaris and Comnenos.
They are Greeks by ethnicity! (jus sanguini ).
We were talking about if the post-1821 royals were Greeks or not!
By ethnicity, I mean.
> They
> may well be descendants of those emperors.
Certainly!
So they are Greeks by ethnicity!
Is Mr. Glucksburg (to be more precise his correct name is: Constantine II
Oldenburg) a Greek by ethnicity?...
Think not.
> I never asked as it was years
> later when I came across those names.
All the Greek names like the above you mention, are descendants of Greeks
from Byzantium. Names like Protonotarios, Notarios, Laskaris, Comnenos,
Spatharis, etc are with certainty indicating Greek-Byzantine decency. Also
most of the names ending in -itsis, Skylitsis, Miahlitsis, Georgitsis, etc.
Yanart Amin Ari
"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> wrote in message
news:ugTtc.100489$Nn4.21...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c981tv$2l6f$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Yo, BOZO ;-)
>
> Nice to talk to you too, anonymous coward.
>
> > I was talking about if Greek blood is running in their veins or not!
> > Not what they feel!
>
> Come on now... you are beginning to sound like a "Xrisaugiti"! Since when
> did your ilk ever defend the position of homogeneous Hellenic blood (that
> has been unaltered by the DNA of other races, nationalities, or other
> non-Hellenic populations)? When did you and your boot-licking kind ever
> worry about the non-Hellenic origin of your political bosses (whether that
> was Evert or Simitis)? When did you beggars concern yourselves about the
> non-Hellenic blood (Turkish in some cases) of some of your MP's?
ITYM Bastardised Turkish in ALL cases
Mwahahahahahahahahaar
Yanart Amin Ari
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Dear Turkish IDIOT:-)))
> We all know that you are JEALOUS about been a TURK, but please do all us
> GREEKS a favor and get lost:-)))
GooGue tries SO hard to convince the world she's a greek doesn't she
Yanart Amin Ari
"Duh' whorian West" <westd...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:40b84d4a$0$31678$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>
> Well, I would name the Greeks that are descendants of such people. When I
> was in university
*LMFAO* Did you work in the store-rooms ?
I knew 2 Greeks with surnames Lascaris and Comnenos. They
> may well be descendants of those emperors. I never asked
But you sucked their COCKS and let them "Butt-fuck" you anyway ?
> later when I came across those names.
>
You liked them SO much you actually *Came* across them ?
What a SICK dingo you are, cobber
Mwahahahahahahahahar
Yanart Amin Ari
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > Well, I would name the Greeks that are descendants of such people.
>
> Sure, and they are Greek if they feel Greek!
Yeeeeeuuuuchhhhh !
Who would want to feel greek ?
Yanart Amin Ari
"++" <sp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:97051eb6.04052...@posting.google.com...
It would become almost civilised
HTH
June R Harton
news:<c944tl$jl5$1...@ikaria.belnet.be>...
> > He was never a GREEK Royal
> >
> > He is not a GREEK Royal
> >
> > Nobody will ever be a Greek Royal
> >
> > We don't need royals
>
>
> Greece has never had native royals. Even Phlip, Alexander and the
> rest of the Macedonian royals came from outside to conquer and rule
> Greece.
You are such a stupid liar that it obviously escapes you that you thus
expose your utter filthy fascist mental state, eh, Gail Schneider?
"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim
made by the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more
than a generally accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as
Ptolemaios or Philippos, are good Greek names, and the names of the
Macedonian months, although differed from those of Athens or Sparta,
were also Greek. The language spoken by the Macedonians, which
Greeks of the classical period found intelligible, appears to have been
a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3
Who Are The Macedonians 1995
Pgs 15/16
"That Greek so easily subsumed the local Macedonian dialect
would indicate that the dialect in Philip's time was not far removed
from Greek after all."
---From Cambridge, Ancient Histories.
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed
and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all
contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of
surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there
was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument
over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy,
but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There
is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be
as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers,
but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into
their territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996
Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania
to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your
own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now
that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien
people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the
field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the
Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the
exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be afraid of
the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But
if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay
neutral and do not side with the unjust."
And this:
"From: http://sersun1.essex.ac.uk/~jprodr/sancpol1.html
For fair use only
Polybios 38.1-3.8
The 38th book contains the completion of the disaster of the
Hellenes. For though both the whole of Hellas and her several parts
had often met with mischance, yet to none of her former defeats can
we more fittingly apply, the name of disaster with all it signifies than to
the events of my own time. ...In the time I am speaking of a common
misfortune befell the Peloponnesians, the Boiotians, the Fokians, the
[Eub]oians, the Lokrians, some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf, and finally
the Macedonians."
As you see above, folks, the Hellenes who had the 'common disaster' in
Polybios' 'own time' are listed as:
"the Peloponnesians,
the Boiotians,
the Fokians,
the [Eub]oians,
the Lokrians,
some of the cities on the Ionian Gulf,
and finally the Macedonians"
And as for the creation of Macedonia by Greeks you only have to read
these:
Herodotos:
For fair use only
From:http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.1.i.html
"Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been
recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which
was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed
out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the
Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter
of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early
times the most distinguished place in Greece, the (latter) being a Pelasgic,
the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original
seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the
reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt,
but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base
of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from
that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni,
in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to
Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way,
they became known as Dorians."
Clearly, Herodotos states above that the HELLENIC tribe was the Macedonians
and (a group of them) went south and were known
there as Dorians (as you also saw from Polybios above)!
Thucydides Histories 2.99.1 - 2.99.6
[2.99.1]
Assembling in Doberus, they (the Thracians) prepared for
descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia,
where the dominions of Perdiccas lay;
[2.99.2]
for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland,
though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of
their kindred, still have their own separate governments.
[2.99.3]
The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia,
was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas,
and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.
This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians,
who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places
under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon
(indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea
is still called the Pierian gulf)
of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians,
from Bottia,
[2.99.4]
and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along
the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea;
the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon,
being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians.
[2.99.5]
From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of
whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca,
and the Almopians from Almopia.
[2.99.6]
These Macedonians also conquered places belonging
to the other tribes, which are still theirs--Anthemus, Crestonia,
Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now
called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces,
Perdiccas, Alexander's son, was the reigning king.
Arrian
The Campaigns of Alexander.
Alexander talking to the troops before the battle.
Book 2-7
Penguin Classics.
Page 112.
Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
" ...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for
Greece, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our foreign troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoudest soldiers of Europe, and
they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes
of Asia."
"Alexander (died B.C.E.) By Plutarch
Written A.C.E.
Translated by John Dryden
It is agreed on by all hands, that on the father's side, Alexander descended
from Hercules by Caranus, and from Aeacus by Neoptolemus on the
mother's side. His father Philip, being in Samothrace, when he was quite
young, fell in love there with Olympias, in company with whom he was
initiated in the religious ceremonies of the country, and her father and
mother being both dead, soon after, with the consent of her brother,
Arymbas, he married her.
While he was thus deliberating what to do, it happened that a spring of
water near the city of Xanthus in Lycia, of its own accord, swelled over
its banks, and threw up a copper plate, upon the margin of which was
engraven in ancient characters, that the time would come when the
Persian empire should be destroyed by the Grecians. Encouraged by
this accident, he proceeded
Having passed through the wilderness, they came to the place where
the high priest, at the first salutation, bade Alexander welcome from his
father Ammon. And being asked by him whether any of his father's
murderers had escaped punishment, he charged him to speak with more respect,
since his was not a mortal father. Then Alexander, changing his expression,
desired to know of him if any of those who murdered Philip
were yet unpunished, and further concerning dominion, whether the
empire of the world was reserved for him? This, the god answered,
he should obtain, and that Philip's death was fully revenged, which
gave him so much satisfaction that he made splendid offerings to
Jupiter, and gave the priests very rich presents. This is what most
authors write concerning the oracles. But Alexander, in a letter to
his mother, tells her there were some secret answers, which at his
return he would communicate to her only. Others say that the priest,
desirous as a piece of courtesy to address him in Greek, "O Paidion,
" by a slip in pronunciation ended with the s instead of the n, and
said "O Paidios," which mistake Alexander was well enough pleased
with, and it went for current that the oracle had called him so.
He made the longest address that day to the Thessalians and other Greeks,
who answered him with loud shouts, desiring him to lead them on against the
barbarians, upon which he shifted his javelin into his left hand, and with
his right lifted up towards heaven, besought the gods, as Callisthenes tells
us, that if he was of a truth the son of Jupiter, they would be pleased to
assist and strengthen the Grecians.
Amongst other things he happened to observe a large statue of Xerxes thrown
carelessly down to the ground in the confusion made by the multitude of
soldiers pressing into the palace. He stood still, and accosting it as if it
had been alive, "Shall we," said he, "neglectfully pass thee by, now thou
art prostrate on the ground because thou once invadedst Greece, or shall we
erect thee again in consideration of the greatness of thy mind and thy other
virtues?" But at last, after he had paused some time, and silently
considered with himself, he went on without taking any further notice of it.
In this place he took up his winter quarters, and stayed four months to
refresh his soldiers. It is related that the first time he sat on the royal
throne of Persia under the canopy of gold, Demaratus the Corinthian,
who was much attached to him and had been one of his father's friends,
wept, in an old man's manner, and deplored the misfortune of those
Greeks whom death had deprived of the satisfaction of seeing Alexander
seated on the throne of Darius.
The most celebrated of them was Thais, an Athenian, mistress of Ptolemy, who
was afterwards King of Egypt. She, partly as a sort of well-turned
compliment to Alexander, partly out of sport, as the drinking went on, at
last was carried so far as to utter a saying, not misbecoming her native
country's character, though somewhat too lofty for her own condition. She
said it was indeed some recompense for the toils she had undergone in
following the camp all over Asia, that she was that day treated in, and
could insult over, the stately palace of the Persian monarches. But, she
added, it would please her much better if, while the king looked on, she
might in sport, with her own hands, set fire to the court of that Xerxes who
reduced the city of Athens to ashes, that it might be recorded to posterity
that the women who followed Alexander had taken a severer revenge on the
Persians for the suffering, and affronts of Greece, than all the famed
commanders had been able to do by sea or land. What she said was received
with such universal liking and murmurs of applause, and so seconded by the
encouragement and eagerness of the company, that the king himself, persuaded
to be of the party, started from his seat, and with a chaplet
of flowers on his head and a lighted torch in his hand, led them the way,
while they went after him in a riotous manner, dancing and making loud
cries about the place; which when the rest of the Macedonians perceived,
they also in great delight ran thither with torches; for they hoped the
burning and destruction of the royal palace was an argument that he looked
homeward, and had no design to reside among the barbarians. Thus
some writers give their account of this action, while others say it was
done deliberately; however, all agree that he soon repented of it, and
gave order to put out the fire.
Now, also, he more and more accommodated himself in his way of living to
that of the natives, and tried to bring them also as near as he could to the
Macedonian customs, wisely considering that whilst he was engaged in an
expedition which would carry him far from thence, it would be wiser to
depend upon the good-will which might arise from intermixture and
association as a means of maintaining tranquillity, than upon force and
compulsion. In order to this, he chose out thirty thousand boys, whom he put
under masters to teach them the Greek tongue, and to train them up to arms
in the Macedonian discipline.
For to go on in order, Demaratus of Corinth, now quite an old man, had made
a great effort, about this time, to pay Alexander a visit; and when he had
seen him, said he pitied the misfortune of those Grecians, who were so
unhappy as to die before they had beheld Alexander seated on the throne of
Darius. But he did not long enjoy the benefit of the king's kindness for
him, any otherwise than that soon after falling sick and dying, he had a
magnificent funeral, and the army raised him a monument of earth fourscore
cubits high, and of a vast circumference. His ashes were conveyed in a very
rich chariot, drawn by four horses, to the seaside.''
So, Schneider, there is not much one can say for the quality of your
arguments besides the following:
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
...The heart of Real Macedonia was always Greek
Seanie O'Kilfoyle
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:tNguc.177$So5...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
We've seen that same crap a million times from you now Ms Hardon
And nobody believed it the first time either
Get a new hobby, dweeb
June R Harton
"Seanie O'Kilfoyle" <Pi...@Easy.SCHPAMM.com> wrote in message
news:_8suc.532$cs4.79@newsfe4-gui...
You are such a stupid liar that it obviously escapes you that you thus
expose your utter filthy fascist mental state, eh, troll?
Nashton
Thanks for proving my point.
>>Toulaxiston meneis sthn Amerikh, ekei pou anhkeis, sthn Ellada sa se
>>eixan parei me tis sapies tomates.
>
>
> What would you know about Hellas or Hellenes, you Canook? Stick to posting
> to USENET about imaginary dead cousins and leave the tomatoes alone.
More than you'll ever know, Pilarine;)
For one, you coudn't find your own ass if you were looking in a mirror
and using both hands, let alone knowing anything about what makes Greece
tick.
>>EUGE DHMOKRATH!!
>
>
> Once again, you have surprised me with your ability to counter the facts
> posted - ONE by ONE!
Facts are countered with facts, nonsense with redicule. Exactly what you
deserve and exactly what you seem to be getting since you started
posting your crapola in scg.
Nicolas
>>Nicolas
>
>
>
Nashton
<snip>
Pilarine, go post your incoherant American right-wing neocon crapola
somewhere else.
Good thing Americans don't share your racist and intolerant attitude
towards people with different heritage, otherwise you'ld be the victim
of the very racism you advocate.
Nicolas
Nashton
Pffft, as ceremonial heads of State, as a replacement to the President
of the democracy, I wouldn't have a problem bringing them back in
"power", but the memories are too vivid for that to occur at this point
in time, so who really cares? ;)
Nicolas
gogu
news:NzEuc.51062$Np3.2...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
Who said he was not, Nicolas ? ;-)
This may be the reason he is an adelfara today ;-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
> Nicolas
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Nashton" <na...@smash.cash> wrote in message
> >>Toulaxiston meneis sthn Amerikh, ekei pou anhkeis, sthn Ellada sa se
> >>eixan parei me tis sapies tomates.
> >
> > What would you know about Hellas or Hellenes, you Canook? Stick to
posting
> > to USENET about imaginary dead cousins and leave the tomatoes alone.
>
> More than you'll ever know, Pilarine;)
Once again, thanks for providing so much information to support your claims!
> For one, you coudn't find your own ass if you were looking in a mirror
> and using both hands, let alone knowing anything about what makes Greece
> tick.
When you look in the mirror, do you usually see your ass? Well... in your
case perhaps.
> >>EUGE DHMOKRATH!!
> >
> > Once again, you have surprised me with your ability to counter the facts
> > posted - ONE by ONE!
>
> Facts are countered with facts, nonsense with redicule. Exactly what you
> deserve and exactly what you seem to be getting since you started
> posting your crapola in scg.
The only one that receives ridicule is you Nikolaki. You have always made
great efforts to prove yourself to be an ignorant lying ass. You're free to
provide evidence of me being caught unread or lying (like you have been
REPEATEDLY).
You're nothing more than a pathetic beggar who still kisses the asses of the
politicians that have made you immigrate to a barren frozen wasteland. Go
exult with them over such "success", where morons like you feel compelled to
defend their crimes with lies. At least your adultering buddy Gogu gets to
feed his fat ass with his "services"...
> Nicolas
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Dear Turkish IDIOT:-)))
> We all know that you are JEALOUS about been a TURK, but please do all us
> GREEKS a favor and get lost:-)))
If I were a Turk, then why would I be jealous of being one? Is it logic that
you lack, or a basic understanding of English, you dim-witted driveling
idiot?
> We all can feel your PAIN and FRUSTRATION, but a shrink would be a most
> adequate help for you ;-)
The only pain you feel gogu, is the anal violations you receive daily.
> Your hatred, your FASCISM, you incoherent rumblings are well know to this
> ng, so no wonder your "polite" reply ;-)))
Great attempt at trying to focus attention from the hypocritical position
you hold regarding Hellenism, and those that constitute the Hellenic nation.
> Now go back under the rock out and tell us more mambo jumbo about your
> beloved FASCIST junta, your beloved Papadopoulos (I hope you'll meet him
> soon:-)), and the rest of the CRIMINAL homos of the junta:-)))
More hypocrisy and lies on your part. The homosexuals and their supporters
took power in 1974, not 1967. As for being a "fascist", at least learn what
the term means before you use it, you uneducated Roumanian troll.
> You are a shame for your country TURKEY my little PRICK:-)
We know your prick is little, no need to state it here.
> Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)
What does the above mean in your native Roumanian?
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Nashton" <na...@smash.cash> wrote in message
> Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Pilarine, go post your incoherant American right-wing neocon crapola
> somewhere else.
Showing off your ignorance once again, Nikolaki? Is "neocon" the word of the
day for you? If it is, you might want to learn what it means and how well it
"fits in" with the other political epitaphs you have used for me.
> Good thing Americans don't share your racist and intolerant attitude
> towards people with different heritage, otherwise you'ld be the victim
> of the very racism you advocate.
Re malaka, it is your butt-buddy gogu who is making statements about who is
or is not a Greek based on their "blood" (or whatever moronic statements he
was making about the former king). So take your head out your ass and follow
the conversation, moron.
> Nicolas
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Romaios" <ROM...@visi.net> wrote in message
news:40B7C8F2...@visi.net...
> Re Pilarine thes kai ta les i sou xepheugoune?
Romaios, perhaps you should listen to reason and facts prior to restricting
yourself to surface observations. You have obviously reached the wrong
conclusion about my position on the topic.
> If Constantine Whatever decides to adopt a surname then he can go back
> to Greece and run for an election.
What does having a surname have to do with being a citizen of Hellas? Has he
been recognized by the state (and provided with official documents) with
just his given name? In fact, is there any LEGAL reasoning behind violating
his rights just because he does not have a surname? The ECHR (European Court
of Human Rights) has ruled that the government of Hellas was in violation,
and WE (the common taxpayers) had to pay some 15 million Euro for this.
> The point is that Constantine lives
> still in dream world and he does not want to accept that he is not any
> more King, and that present day Greece is a Democracy and not a Kingdom.
He has accepted the result of the 1974 referendum, even though it was
undemocratic (since he was not allowed to enter the country and campaign for
his position). The above argument does not stand.
> The illegal aliens that get their Greek papers (Greek Green Card???)
> have a surname and they do not suffer from Constantine's Whatever
> illusions.
These aliens receive the rights and privelages of citizens, regardless of
their ethnic background. Most of the political groups that oppose the
"foreign" king (using as an argument that he is not "Greek"), support the
integration and "Hellenization" of these non-Hellenic populations. And yet,
they welcome the violation of the rights of a citizen of Hellas
(Constantinos)!
More hypocrisy from the political oligarchy regarding their position on
Hellenic homogeneity:
The parties have been LED by people with less than 100% Hellenic ancestry.
The party has MP's (bouleutes) that are either not of 100% Hellenic
ancestry, or not Hellenic at all.
> Any Greek citizen's son or daughter should have the right to be elected
> to the highest office in our country if he/she is capable.
Yes, elected by the public (DEMO) rather than the oligarchy (MP's).
> Why should
> Greeks have someone that becomes the leader of the nation just by the
> right of birth, without competing in an election, and he occupies the
> position for life.
They shouldn't! They should also not have a GROUP of people (oligarchy) that
"just by right of birth, without competing" get to govern the country from
one generation to the next.
> This is not a small family business for someonbe to
> inherit it. Even in the biggests corporations today the chief executive
> (s) are elected and do not serve for life.
And who elected Karamanlis (as leader of ND) or Papandreou (as leader of
PASOK)? What real options does the electorate have? You live in the USA...
so imagine that instead of primaries, you had the party oligarchy select the
presidential candidate! As unreal and as undemocratic as that is to an
American (or any democratically minded person), that is exactly how the
Hellenic political system is.
> At any rate Pilarine, you and I and our children and grand children
> will die, hopefully of old age, but we will never see another King as
> head of our nation.
I sure hope so. But if you want your child or mine to have the ability to
represent his/her nation, then the current oligarchy and its nepotism must
be destroyed. I personally see no difference between a king and an
un-elected president. In fact, the king would act more responsibly than does
a president who is accountable only to the POLITICIANS and PARTIES that
elected him.
> It is 37 years since we kicked the King out of
> Greece in 1967.
Don't say "we" when you talk about 1967, or else they'll label you a fascist
or a "xountiko"! :)
> When we kicked them out in 1923, they came back in
> 1936, that is 13 years later. If you have any money, you bet that in
> 2017 we will celebrate the jubillee of having kick them out.
I'll be celebrating only when I can directly vote for my president. Anything
else is a farce and insult for democracy.
Also, you should re-examine the historical aspects of the events you
mention. The political crisis between Venizelos and the monarchy hurt the
nation, and the fault does not rest solely on the king (even if this is not
mentioned after 1974). In 1967, the monarchy was not abolished. It was
however in 1973 when the king directed a military coup against the
government, refused to return to his position, and the public voted for it
in a referendum. In 1974, Karamanlis conducted yet another referendum, but
he did not allow the king to campaign for his position. Later on in 1980,
and recognizing that his party was going to lose the elections (that means
that they did NOT want him), he made his party (still controlling
Parliament) elect him President! "Democracy" (or the perversion we have in
Hellas) at work!
Dionysios Pilarinos
> Read carefully. Chloe refered to EX-Greek royals and that is what they
> are.
How can one be an "EX-Greek"? They are Greek EX-royals.
> Once these EX Greek royals decide that it is not anymore beneath
> their dignity to get a surname then they could claim Greek citizenship
> and come live in Greece and run for an office (Symeon in Bulgaria has
> done so).
They do not need to CLAIM Greek citizenship since that has already been
granted. Why are you ignoring both Hellenic laws and the ruling of the ECHR?
> But these EX Royals will never again occupied a public
> office in Greece because of the right of their birth.
I am confident about that. If you are also confident about the above
statement, then why permit the human rights abuses that cost Hellenic
taxpayers 15 MILLION EURO? The policy of the PASOK governments was wrong,
and we have paid for it. Why insist on excusing it?
> What are the
> chances that any one of these ex-royals will ever be elected by the
> Greek voters? Zero.
There might be enough support to get him into parliament, but that would be
about it. So why focus so much attention on these spoilt blue-bloods? The
politicians (ERE & EK) supported the royals for years when they were in
power (they even paid "dowry" for Sofia, Queen of Spain), and yet today hold
a position that they are not even "Greek"?
How about we create a law that states that only ethnic Hellenes (and only
those with 100% Hellenic ancestry) can run for office? At least this way we
can be consistent with our position. How about restricting nepotism in
elected offices and the public sector? Think you'd get support for the above
in parliament?
Yannis the Macedonian
..................................................
> Greece has never had native royals. Even Phlip, Alexander and the
> rest of the Macedonian royals came from outside to conquer and rule
> Greece.
Hahahahahahaha !!!
Macedonians were always Greeks my chum !
Let alone, Kekrops, Leonidas, Kreon, ....
> Why Greece (or Bulgaria, for that matter) would need a batch of
> Germans to rule it is beyond me....
Try harder. No special skills are needed to understand it !!
Why Tito dominated FYROPseudoMacedonia?
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
gogu
>
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c99qpr$9u2$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Dear Turkish IDIOT:-)))
> > We all know that you are JEALOUS about been a TURK, but please do all us
> > GREEKS a favor and get lost:-)))
>
> If I were a Turk, then why would I be jealous of being one? Is it logic
that
> you lack, or a basic understanding of English, you dim-witted driveling
> idiot?
Because you hate your own race Turkish boy ;-)))
You are *definitely* a Turk darling ;-)
> > We all can feel your PAIN and FRUSTRATION, but a shrink would be a most
> > adequate help for you ;-)
>
> The only pain you feel gogu, is the anal violations you receive daily.
Hihihi:-)))
Your sex dreams are still with you I see, the electroshock didn't help you
at all dear:-)))
> > Your hatred, your FASCISM, you incoherent rumblings are well know to
this
> > ng, so no wonder your "polite" reply ;-)))
>
> Great attempt at trying to focus attention from the hypocritical position
> you hold regarding Hellenism, and those that constitute the Hellenic
nation.
???
I see that you are on drugs again, my little Turkish NAZI:-)))
> > Now go back under the rock out and tell us more mambo jumbo about your
> > beloved FASCIST junta, your beloved Papadopoulos (I hope you'll meet him
> > soon:-)), and the rest of the CRIMINAL homos of the junta:-)))
>
> More hypocrisy and lies on your part.
LOL
While when you say that I am a Romanian and a Jew, I suppose it's all true
and not HYPOCRISY at all:-)))
LOL LOL LOL
You fascists animals never cease to amaze me my little baboon :-)))
> The homosexuals and their supporters
> took power in 1974, not 1967.
Not at all!
They took power in 1967 and they where thrown out of the window by the
people in 1074!
Accept your frustration darling Turk homo, it's not so bad to be a little
stupid nazi like you ;-)
> As for being a "fascist", at least learn what
> the term means before you use it, you uneducated Roumanian troll.
LOL LOL LOL
You say that I am a Romanian but you deny me the right to say that you are a
TURK:-)))
Are all FASCIST ANIMALS like you so "smart" or it's only you my little
darling ? ;-)))
What a DUMP little WORM you are sweetie :-)
> > You are a shame for your country TURKEY my little PRICK:-)
>
> We know your prick is little, no need to state it here.
LOL
More sex fantasies by the well know FASCIST Turk Pi-pi-LATRINOS ;-)))
I suggest to start seeing your therapist again asap, darling ;-)
> > Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)
>
> What does the above mean in your native Roumanian?
It's in YOUR native TURKISH my little rose-petal, so you should know better
;-)
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
gogu
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:MMavc.104494$Nn4.22...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
I *never* did such a statement but as a good a NAZI you are trying to
distort
my words, you little FASCIST piece of SHIT!
But we all know that you TURK FASCISTS are fool of LIES and SHIT, so no
wonder :-)))
> So take your head out your ass and follow
> the conversation, moron.
What conversation you STUPID JERK?
There can not be a conversation, it is called "FUCK DAILY PI-PI-LATRINOS",
you little twerp ;-)
Who can have a "conversation" with a FASCIST ANIMAL like you my little sweet
BABOON ? ;-)))
You are just a little nuisance, a voice out of the shit-hole, one more NAZI
Turkish TROLL ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
> > Nicolas
gogu
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:Ojbvc.104497$Nn4.22...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
Why are you ANGRY my little NAZI BABOON ? ;-)))
Do you feel bad when everybody is SHITING in your filthy NAZI mouth darling
? ;-)))
Gooood, because that's why all Hellenes here are doing for years, but you
can't understand it and you ask for more ;-)))
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:ydavc.104487$Nn4.22...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:VAbvc.104499$Nn4.22...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Re malaka, it is your butt-buddy gogu who is making statements about who
> is
> > or is not a Greek based on their "blood" (or whatever moronic statements
> he
> > was making about the former king).
>
> I *never* did such a statement but as a good a NAZI you are trying to
> distort
> my words, you little FASCIST piece of SHIT!
> But we all know that you TURK FASCISTS are fool of LIES and SHIT, so no
> wonder :-)))
Once again, you are caught lying, you spineless piece of shit:
Message-ID: <c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> : "there was *never* a Greek
royal"
Message-ID: <c99r3p$aga$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> : "Is Mr. Glucksburg (to be
more precise his correct name is: Constantine II Oldenburg) a Greek by
ethnicity?...
Think not."
So go fuck yourself, you denying cunt! For once act like a man and stand by
your statements. BTW, is Evert, Simitis, or Papandreou (and many other
politicians) "Greek by ethnicity"? Or do some of them get a pass because
they are "one quarter" Greek (by "ethnicity")? Worthless hypocrite!
> > So take your head out your ass and follow
> > the conversation, moron.
>
> What conversation you STUPID JERK?
> There can not be a conversation, it is called "FUCK DAILY PI-PI-LATRINOS",
> you little twerp ;-)
Only in your fantasies, you failed miserable middle-aged fuck.
> Who can have a "conversation" with a FASCIST ANIMAL like you my little
sweet
> BABOON ? ;-)))
Dude, your ability to counter the facts presented with coherent and
supported arguments astounds me! If you have a diploma (which I doubt, you
anonymous cunt), go wipe your ass with it.
> You are just a little nuisance, a voice out of the shit-hole, one more
NAZI
> Turkish TROLL ;-)))
Your butt-buddy Nikolaki called me a "neo-con". Can't you ignorant morons
pick a label and stick to it? Apparently you mental midgets don't know the
difference between a fascist, a nazi, a "neo-con", or a nationalist (since
you interchange them so easily).
> Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Should that be S_lamal_kum, you confused heretic asswipe? hehe... Why don't
you apply Jewish practices here just as easily as you do with the Christian
G_D (that's GOD to us sinners). Arxidi Farisaie!
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
>
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Once again, I respond with facts. Keep up with the childish antics so as to
validate everything I have said about you and the corrupt system you
support.
PS: Are your cognitive abilities so diminished that you cannot even respond
to even one of the FACTS presented below? Hehe... don't even bother
answering. Your "conversation" skills are answer enough.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
>
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Once again, I respond with facts. Keep up with the childish antics so as to
validate everything I have said about you and the corrupt system you
support.
PS: Are your cognitive abilities so diminished that you cannot even respond
to even one of the FACTS presented below? Hehe... don't even bother
answering. Your "conversation" skills are answer enough.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Hihihi:-))))
> Why are you ANGRY my little NAZI BABOON ? ;-)))
The only one that comes across angry is the one using CAPS (shouting). :)
> Do you feel bad when everybody is SHITING in your filthy NAZI mouth
darling
> ? ;-)))
If "everyone" is you and Nikolaki, then blow up the planet! You're such a
toooool! Hehe...
> Gooood, because that's why all Hellenes here are doing for years, but you
> can't understand it and you ask for more ;-)))
You're a Roumanian, and Nikolaki is a Canook. How "representative" the two
of you are of Hellenes! Toooool!
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Once again, I respond with facts. Keep up with the childish antics so as to
validate everything I have said about you and the corrupt system you
support.
> Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Should that be S_lamal_kum, you confused heretic asswipe? hehe... Why don't
you apply Jewish practices here just as easily as you do with the Christian
G_D (that's GOD to us sinners). Arxidi Farisaie!
> --
gogu
>
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c9lta7$rat$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Hihihi:-))))
> > Why are you ANGRY my little NAZI BABOON ? ;-)))
>
> The only one that comes across angry is the one using CAPS (shouting). :)
LOL
Come on darling, admit it that you are ANGRY :-)))
We all can see that!
> > Do you feel bad when everybody is SHITING in your filthy NAZI mouth
> darling
> > ? ;-)))
>
> If "everyone" is you and Nikolaki, then blow up the planet! You're such a
> toooool! Hehe...
I don't see any other Greek poster except your good pal Kakaleon to support
your fascist stupidities madame ;-)
I know that you are frustrated but hey, that's it!
Learn to live with it, my little sweet BABOON ;-)
> > Gooood, because that's why all Hellenes here are doing for years, but
you
> > can't understand it and you ask for more ;-)))
>
> You're a Roumanian, and Nikolaki is a Canook. How "representative" the two
> of you are of Hellenes! Toooool!
Nope, we *are* Hellenes, YOU ARE A TURK my little piece of a Turkish shit
;-)
> > O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> > ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
>
> You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
> think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
>
> Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
reintroduced
> Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
> exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Bla ... bla ... bla ...
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
gogu
>
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c9lt3c$qoi$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > > Re malaka, it is your butt-buddy gogu who is making statements about
who
> > is
> > > or is not a Greek based on their "blood" (or whatever moronic
statements
> > he
> > > was making about the former king).
> >
> > I *never* did such a statement but as a good a NAZI you are trying to
> > distort
> > my words, you little FASCIST piece of SHIT!
> > But we all know that you TURK FASCISTS are fool of LIES and SHIT, so no
> > wonder :-)))
>
> Once again, you are caught lying, you spineless piece of shit:
>
> Message-ID: <c95qjj$10jq$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> : "there was *never* a
Greek
> royal"
> Message-ID: <c99r3p$aga$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> : "Is Mr. Glucksburg (to be
> more precise his correct name is: Constantine II Oldenburg) a Greek by
> ethnicity?...
> Think not."
>
> So go fuck yourself, you denying cunt!
LOL LOL LOL
The FASCIST TURK Pi-pi-Latrinos is the one to be ANGRY, see darling ?
:-)))))))))))))))))))
OTOH, I said that your retarded king was not an ethnic Hellene, and I stand
to this!
What I challenged you is the fact that I am making an issue out of it, you
DUMP Turk ;-)
I just stated a FACT!
I didn't say that it is better to be a Greek by blood or any other people of
the world!
Just a FACT you retarded NAZI Turk ;-)))
Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
gogu
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:2twvc.162044$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:nuwvc.162052$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
Can you be consistent? Am I a "nazi" or a "fascist"? Only a clueless
uneducated moron would use them interchangeably. As for being angry... you
couldn't be further from the truth. :)
Catching you (once again) lying on this newsgroup brings great satisfaction.
And you resorting to elementary school "insults" is indicative of your
inability to counter anything presented.
> OTOH, I said that your retarded king was not an ethnic Hellene, and I
stand
> to this!
I'm sorry, but Constantinos was never my king, but he sure as hell was
yours! What did you call him back in the 60's you old goat? Did you sit in a
classroom with his picture on the wall? :) Back then I'm sure you licked his
ass (much like you do for the politicians today) because he had power.
Unless of course you wish to disprove me by providing evidence of your
anti-royal activities. Once a mprizololatris, always a mprizololatris.
> What I challenged you is the fact that I am making an issue out of it, you
> DUMP Turk ;-)
A "DUMP" Turk? That's not even a typo... How close is the B to the P on your
keyboard, you ignorant retard? Are you inbred?
> I just stated a FACT!
A "FACT" (non-Hellenic ethnicity) that you ignore when it applies to
politicians (who feed your parasitic existence). Your position regarding the
former king is hypocritic to say the least.
> I didn't say that it is better to be a Greek by blood or any other people
of
> the world!
You are a hypocrite and a pathetic liar!
Message-ID: <bmhp6n$a4c$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>:
"I will tell you that Greek is anyone who shares the values of the Greek
education, language and way of thinking."
I don't recall you ever making an issue of the ethnic background of Evert,
Simitis, or Papandreou (to name a few). You have also in the past supported
the acceptance of ethnic non-Hellenes as "Greeks" (once "Hellenized"). And
yet you take issue with a family that has for generations lived in Hellas?
Historically speaking, "royalty" has interbred with the "nobility" of other
nations (the so-called "blue-blooded"). For Hellas, this goes back at least
to the Byzantine period (especially for marriages with non-Hellenes). Is
there "royalty" in Europe that can claim to have exclusive ethnic ancestry?
Not that I care about the former king or his family, but it insults my
democratic principles to see human rights abuses performed by the oligarchy.
Obviously you'll try to lie some more, but frankly, nobody gives a shit
about your thoughts. The ECHR has ruled against the Hellenic government, and
unfortunately the Hellenic taxpayers had to pay the 15 million Euro bill.
Great job, assholes!
> Just a FACT you retarded NAZI Turk ;-)))
Didn't you just claim I was a fascist? Which is it, you unread buffoon?
> Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
Is this the new religious curriculum of the oligarchy? It's been a while
since I went to Hellenic public school, so do inform us about it. Is this
course offered after G_D 101 (that's GOD to us Christian Orthodox sinners)?
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Once again, I respond with facts. Keep up with the childish antics so as to
validate everything I have said about you and the corrupt system you
support.
PS: Are your cognitive abilities so diminished that you cannot even respond
to even one of the FACTS presented below? Hehe... don't even bother
answering. Your "conversation" skills are answer enough.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
>
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
>
> Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
civil weddings, easing divorce, legalizing abortion) that has led to the
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > Hihihi:-))))
> > > Why are you ANGRY my little NAZI BABOON ? ;-)))
> >
> > The only one that comes across angry is the one using CAPS (shouting).
:)
>
> LOL
> Come on darling, admit it that you are ANGRY :-)))
> We all can see that!
Who is "we", you psychopath? Are the voices in your head out of control
again?
I have ripped you to pieces just by providing facts and exposing your lies
(not for the first time either, mind you). And yet you think that you are
coming across as winning an argument or infuriating me because you use
"homo" remarks? Hehe... keep it up! I might just have a heart attack.
Delusional idiot.
> > > Do you feel bad when everybody is SHITING in your filthy NAZI mouth
> > darling
> > > ? ;-)))
> >
> > If "everyone" is you and Nikolaki, then blow up the planet! You're such
a
> > toooool! Hehe...
>
> I don't see any other Greek poster except your good pal Kakaleon to
support
> your fascist stupidities madame ;-)
Unlike the rush of support you receive, right? Hehe...
When I post verifiable information, I do not need support (unlike your
idiotic kafenio statements). At best people walk away after reading one of
my messages and go ahead and perform independent research to validate my
statements (or try to disprove them). At "worst" (like you and Nikolaki),
you embark on childish attacks that result in your own personal ridicule and
the public rejection of your positions.
> I know that you are frustrated but hey, that's it!
> Learn to live with it, my little sweet BABOON ;-)
You're the one that posts countless messages about having an affair or
getting circumcised, and you think that I am "frustrated"? I'm quite
satisfied with my life to be annoyed by an anonymous cunt-rag like you.
> > You're a Roumanian, and Nikolaki is a Canook. How "representative" the
two
> > of you are of Hellenes! Toooool!
>
> Nope, we *are* Hellenes, YOU ARE A TURK my little piece of a Turkish shit
> ;-)
Says the man who for years posted on a Roumanian newsgroup prior to
"finding" this one! Sell us a bridge while you're at it.
> > > O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos
akomh
> > > ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
> >
> > You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and
9-year-olds
> > think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
> >
> > Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> > cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
> reintroduced
> > Christian Orthodox values. It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> > attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> > civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
> > exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
>
> Bla ... bla ... bla ...
Wow... imagine that! Gogu is once again unable to reply with facts. Another
attack on Hellenism and the family (post-1974) was the legalization of
abortion. So what criminal and social issues have improved since 1974? Damn,
you can't even mention ONE?
> O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
All three mentioned above were/are married and raise(d) families. If that is
indicative of being a "poustara", then what the hell does that make you? A
drag-queen?
> Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
G_D be with you (Theos, Xristos, God, Jesus). I hope He doesn't strike me
down for ignoring your Jewish rule regarding "taking His name"! Farisaie!
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
Manos
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c9lta7$rat$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Hihihi:-))))
> > Why are you ANGRY my little NAZI BABOON ? ;-)))
>
> The only one that comes across angry is the one using CAPS (shouting). :)
>
> > Do you feel bad when everybody is SHITING in your filthy NAZI mouth
> darling
> > ? ;-)))
>
> If "everyone" is you and Nikolaki, then blow up the planet! You're such a
> toooool! Hehe...
>
> > Gooood, because that's why all Hellenes here are doing for years, but you
> > can't understand it and you ask for more ;-)))
>
> You're a Roumanian, and Nikolaki is a Canook. How "representative" the two
> of you are of Hellenes! Toooool!
>
> > O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> > ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
>
> You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
> think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
>
>
Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed
the
> cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
> Christian Orthodox values.
The xounta of which you so ardently support also " reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values" by torturing political opponents ( some
tortured to death) and also orchestrated and directed the overthrow of
the Government of the Republic of Cyprus which directly resulted in
the thousands of people killed on Cyprus not to mention the partition
of that small nation which was given the green light to Turkey by the
xounta's idiotic military/political moves. If you are going to filch
the topic of moral high-grounds as you clearly try to do above, be
sure that your xounta occupied that moral high ground (which in a
"Christian" sense it definitely did NOT). To try and legitimize the
activities of the xounta under the guise of "Christian Orthodox
values" is an insult to the Orthodox Church and Christianity as a
whole. No matter which party anyone supports here on this forum is not
the issue that I am getting at. I am simply pointing out your clear
and stupidly simple hypocrisy by using "Christianity" in the same
sentence to support the xounta. If you want to support the xounta for
other reasons that may or may not be understandable. But to do so in
relation to "Christianity" is extremely stupid considering the xountas
physical actions towards political opponents ( for one). And before
you get into a frenzy about other political parties ( as you usually
do) and their shortcomings, I might remind you that it was YOU who
filched "Christian Orthodox Values" not anyone else. In order to make
such claims you must be sure of history and that the historical
"facts" support your position. In your case the historical facts do
not support your position which is that "Christian Orthodox values"
are not snyonymous with many of the xounta's past actions whether they
had been in Greece or Cyprus. I know you will now try your usual spin
on things to counter this or cover up your errors but fortunately,
historical facts prevent you from doing so.
Have a nice day.
It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
> exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
> > Should that be S_lamal_kum, you confused heretic asswipe? hehe... Why don't
gogu
I see that you are still dead ANGRY darling and you have a logo-diarrhea as
usually ;-)))
Goooood:-)
Now go and sell your lies elsewhere you little self-admitted FASCIST Turk
and junta sympathizer, here nobody is interested in your hallucinations ;-)
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:ZLRvc.165207$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
I see that you are still dead ANGRY darling and you have a logo-diarrhea as
usually ;-)))
Goooood:-)
Now go and sell your lies elsewhere you little self-admitted FASCIST Turk
and junta sympathizer, here nobody is interested in your hallucinations ;-)
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:cwRvc.165204$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
I see that you are still dead ANGRY darling and you have a logo-diarrhea as
usually ;-)))
Goooood:-)
Now go and sell your lies elsewhere you little self-admitted FASCIST Turk
and junta sympathizer, here nobody is interested in your hallucinations ;-)
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:SwRvc.165205$WA4.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
I see that you are still dead ANGRY darling and you have a logo-diarrhea as
usually ;-)))
Goooood:-)
Now go and sell your lies elsewhere you little self-admitted FASCIST Turk
and junta sympathizer, here nobody is interested in your hallucinations ;-)
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
Salamalekum Mehmet ;-)))
Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
έγραψε στο μήνυμα news:JMRvc.165208$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
> "The NAZI-TURK Pi-pi-la(t)rinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> wrote
Very well said Manos!
Junta was a disaster to Greece, that's why so may years after 1974 the
Greeks are constantly sending the junta parties where they belong: to the
history closet, to less than 2,5% ;-)
And our girl-friend Pi-pi-Latrinos can't live with such a HUMILIATION ;-)
So he is trying on scg to make people believe that this cursed junta is
still alive, it still has many supporters ;-)
A poor demented bastard ;-)
But as you write at the end of you posting, you are losing your time trying
to talk to an uneducated lowlife like Pi-pi-Latrinos...
He understands only one language, that of bitchslapping him.
He lives his fantasies, he is half-demented, a little scared COWARD, a real
loser...
He tries to gain some attention for his insane propaganda, but it's a good
thing that quite nobody shares his fascist ideas:-)
A poor, low educated loser...
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Manos" <Parmen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
> Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed
> the
> > cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
reintroduced
> > Christian Orthodox values.
>
> The xounta of which you so ardently support also " reintroduced
> Christian Orthodox values" by torturing political opponents ( some
> tortured to death)
And you can provide evidence of this, right? You do have the name of at
least *1* such "victim" and supporting information (like the date) of them
"tortured to death"? Let's see if we can keep this conversation on an
educated and civilized level, or if we're going to have a "kafenio"
discussion where any statement is taken at face value.
> and also orchestrated and directed the overthrow of
> the Government of the Republic of Cyprus
What does the 21 April 1967 revolution have to do with the events in Cyprus
in 1974?
> which directly resulted in
> the thousands of people killed on Cyprus not to mention the partition
> of that small nation which was given the green light to Turkey by the
> xounta's idiotic military/political moves.
Another fact for you to digest. The Turkish occupation (of anything more
than 5% of the island) did not occur until August 1974 when Karamanlis and
Clerides were in office in Athens and Lefkosia. But again, what does that
have to do with the Revolution (which handed over power to Markezinis in
October 1973)?
> If you are going to filch
> the topic of moral high-grounds as you clearly try to do above, be
> sure that your xounta occupied that moral high ground (which in a
> "Christian" sense it definitely did NOT).
And you have some supporting evidence for this, right? Like I asked (which
you failed to answer), what criminal and social issues have improved since
1974?
> To try and legitimize the
> activities of the xounta under the guise of "Christian Orthodox
> values" is an insult to the Orthodox Church and Christianity as a
> whole.
I didn't use religion to justify the Revolution (and you're free to search
the archives to verify this). I compared their record on social issues
compared to the "democracy" that took power after 1974. And I did that only
after "gogu" called the leaders of the Revolution "poustarades" (thus
indicating that they were "degenerates").
> No matter which party anyone supports here on this forum is not
> the issue that I am getting at. I am simply pointing out your clear
> and stupidly simple hypocrisy by using "Christianity" in the same
> sentence to support the xounta.
I didn't use "Christianity" to support the "xounta". It is however a
historical fact that the Revolution supported Christian Orthodox values (and
simply compare their position on abortion, civil marriage, adultery, or
divorce with the post-1974 regime).
> If you want to support the xounta for
> other reasons that may or may not be understandable.
I let the record stand for itself as far as the contribution of the
Revolution on any single matter (from the economy, defense, public works,
education, or anything else). What I was responding to was an attack on the
character of the leaders of the Revolution. The leadership was or is (for
those still alive) deeply religious and expressed concern about the Hellenic
Orthodox values of the country. Can you claim the same for the "democrats"
of post-1974?
> But to do so in
> relation to "Christianity" is extremely stupid considering the xountas
> physical actions towards political opponents ( for one).
Which were? And how did these "actions" (which I expect you to document)
differ from the actions of every government in the 1945-1967 period?
> And before
> you get into a frenzy about other political parties ( as you usually
> do) and their shortcomings, I might remind you that it was YOU who
> filched "Christian Orthodox Values" not anyone else.
And the record indicates that they did support a program rooted in the
Hellenic Orthodox traditions and values.
> In order to make
> such claims you must be sure of history and that the historical
> "facts" support your position.
So compare the social issues I raised in my original message. It seems easy
for you to attack the Revolution for actions you deem to be against
Christian values. So why not compare their position on these issues with
those of governments before 1967 or after 1974?
> In your case the historical facts do
> not support your position which is that "Christian Orthodox values"
What historical facts? Your unsupported claim that citizens were "tortured
to death"?
> are not snyonymous with many of the xounta's past actions whether they
> had been in Greece or Cyprus.
What were the actions of the Revolution in Cyprus? And what exactly does
government policy in foreign affairs (if you consider Cyprus to be
"foreign") have to do with supporting and promoting Hellenic Orthodox values
at home?
> I know you will now try your usual spin
> on things to counter this or cover up your errors but fortunately,
> historical facts prevent you from doing so.
And yet you have failed to produce even one such historical fact that
supports your claim. In fact, you have introduced a matter (the coup,
invasion, and occupation of Cyprus) which is irrelevant with regard to the
21 April 1967 revolution.
Furthermore, you are ignoring historical and present social and legal
matters that I have explicitly used to clearly illustrate the values
protected prior to 1974. Is abortion currently legal? Has adultery been
decriminalized? Have civil weddings replaced the religious institution? Has
divorce become an easily available recourse? All these (and many more) all
happened after the fall of the "junta".
It is actually remarkable the someone today is claiming that the Revolution
did not support and promote Hellenic Orthodox values! At the time (and even
today) the Revolution was mocked for being run by "religious zealots" who
forbade mini-skirts and nude sunbathing. They mocked (and still do) the
national cry for "Ellas Ellinon Xristianon". And with all this historical
evidence you still wish to pursue an argument that the Revolution did not
espouse Christian Orthodox values?
> Have a nice day.
You too.
> It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> > attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> > civil weddings, easing divorce) that has led to the social problems that
> > exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
And the obvious lack of answer to these points....
Manos
Christian Orthodox values" by torturing political opponents ( some
the Government of the Republic of Cyprus which directly resulted in
the thousands of people killed on Cyprus not to mention the partition
of that small nation which was given the green light to Turkey by the
the topic of moral high-grounds as you clearly try to do above, be
sure that your xounta occupied that moral high ground (which in a
activities of the xounta under the guise of "Christian Orthodox
values" is an insult to the Orthodox Church and Christianity as a
the issue that I am getting at. I am simply pointing out your clear
and stupidly simple hypocrisy by using "Christianity" in the same
other reasons that may or may not be understandable. But to do so in
relation to "Christianity" is extremely stupid considering the xountas
you get into a frenzy about other political parties ( as you usually
do) and their shortcomings, I might remind you that it was YOU who
such claims you must be sure of history and that the historical
not support your position which is that "Christian Orthodox values"
on things to counter this or cover up your errors but fortunately,
historical facts prevent you from doing so.
Have a nice day.
More proof of the junta's instilling of the "Orthodox Christian
Values". According to such ardent supporters (like Mr. Pilarinos) of
the "glorious junta" such practices as torture and exile ( which were
widely practiced by the junta ruling Greece from 1967-1974) are
appropriate and are in line with "Orthodox Christian Values":
Perhaps the most dramatic and emotional of the legal proceedings taken
at this time involved the so-called "torture trials" of figures from
the Military Police (ESA) As Amnesty International commented in a
report at the time, "From the first day of the Junta's rule, torture
was an integral part of the state machinery for suppressing
opposition."18 The torture trials documented how there were twenty-two
different methods of torture employed, including the use of electric
shocks and sexual abuse. As of December, 1976, around 400 trials had
taken place of former members of the ESA. Prison sentences of varying
lengths were handed down following these proceedings, although some
defendants were acquitted, and there was widespread criticism that the
Karamanlis government should have taken the lead itself in organizing
the trials rather than relying on individual complaints to generate
the hearings.
http://www.ciaonet.org/isa/gas02/
The Plaka > History of Greece > Modern Greece >
Books about the time of the Colonels (1967-74)
Thanks to June Samaras for providing me with this extensive
bibleography of books related to this period.
Apostolidis, Loukas Th.. Martyria Apo to Matomeno Phoitiko Kinema
1967-1974. Athens. 1974, Events in Greece during the Junta, especially
the storming of the Athens Polytechnic. 159p.
Becket, James. Barbarism in Greece : A young American lawyer's inquiry
into the use of torture in contemporary Greece, with case histories
and documents . New York: Walker, 1970. telling indictment of the
brutal methods used in during the rule of the Junta in Greece 147p.
Clogg, Richard & Yannopoulos,George (Eds). Greece Under Military Rule
. London: Secker & Warburg, 1972. Thirteen essays by a wide range of
contributors which "expose the slanting of education, leverage against
trade unions, the inflated of the armed forces , the steady erosion of
basic freedom and the subversion of the very language itself" during
the regime of the Junta in Greece. 272p. bibliography. index
Cottrell, Ricahrd. Blood on Their Hands : The Killing of Ann Chapman.
London: Grafton, 1987. A young radio reporter on vacation in Athens
was brutally murdered - ostensibly a sexual assault gone wrong - but
this book alleges that the crime was committed & covered up for
political reasons during the brutal regime of the Junta.
Fallaci, Oraina. A Man : A Novel. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1980.
1st.US Edition. Hard Cover. Very Good / Very Good. Moving novel based
on the tragic real life story of Alexander Panagoulis, who attempted
to assassinate George Papadopoulos during the regime of the Colonels
in Greece, for which he was captured, imprisoned and tortured.
Although presented as fiction it vividly illustrates the brutality of
the dictatorial regime.
Fleming, Amalia. A Piece of the Truth. New York: Houghton Mifflin.,
1973. 1st.US Edition. Hard Cover. Very Good / Good. Personal account
of the imprisonment and harassment of Lady Fleming by the Greek Junta,
also includes the trial of Alexandros Panagoulis.
Genevoix, Maurice. The Greece of Karamanlis (Introduction by
Constantine Tsatsos). London: Doric Publications, 1973. Personal and
political biography of Karamanlis - including a survey of political
events in Grece until the take over of the Junta. Pbk. 206p. plates.
index.
Glezos, Manoli. Apo ti Diktatoria sti Demokratia (IN GREEK). Ekdoseis
Dialogos. Athens. 1974, Political events leading up to the end of the
Junta in 1974. Ex-Library 125p.
Holden, David. Greece Without Columns : The Making of the Modern
Greeks. New York: Lippincott., 1972. "...an extraordinarily
penetrating perspective on modern Greece, its people, its politics and
its paradoxes." survey of Greek life & politics until the Colonals'
Coup. 336p. bibliography. index.
Kousoulas, D.George. Modern Greece : Profile of a Nation. New York:
Scribners. A survey of modern Greek history from the War of
Independence until the rise iof the Greek Junta in 1967. 299p. plates.
bibliography. index
Kubly, Hubert. Gods and Heroes. Doubleday. 1st.ed.1969, Thoughtful and
well written account of people and events in Greece just before the
coup of 1967 - by an observant well-disposed American. HC. 437p.
plates. index.
McNeill, William Hardy. Metamorphosis of Greece since World War II.
University of Chicago Pr., 1978. Analysis of the remarkable economic &
social recovery of Greece from the devastation of WW II and the Civil
War. Also brief but insightful survey of post-war Greek politics until
the 1970's. 264p. Footnotes.Tables. Index.
Mercouri, Melina. I Was Born Greek. New York: Doubleday, 1971. 1st.US
Edition. Hard Cover. Very Good / Good with slight chips & Tear. Melina
Mercouri was more than the "Tart with a Heart" that she portrayed in
"Never on a Sunday." This autobiography details her personal,
professional and political life until she went into exile because of
the Greek Junta.
Mouzelis, Nicos P.. Modern Greece : Facets of Underdevelopment.
London: Macmillan., 1978. Trade Paperback. Very Good Neo-Marxist
theories used to analyze the economic history of Greece in a series of
essays. "...a notable analysis of social inequality, political change
and capitalist 'modernization' processes in Greece...." includes a
survey of the Junta period. 220p. bibliography. index
Mylonas, George. Escape From Amorgos. New York: Scribners, 1974 .
228p. plates.index.
Papandreou, Margaret Chant. Nightmare in Athens. New York: Prentice
Hall, 1970. "Her husband -a leader in the democratic opposition- in
jail; her children in danger : an American woman describes her
confrontation with the Junta ruling Greece." Details of Andreas
Papandreou's imprisonment and eventual release, and his wife's efforts
on his behalf. 390p.
Papandreou, Andreas. Democracy at Gunpoint : The Greek Front.. London:
Andre Deutsch, 1971. Papandreou's own account of the events leading up
to April 21st.1967 and the rule of the military junta, and his own
imprisonment and eventual release. 338p.
Theodorakis, Mikis. Journals of Resistance. New York: Coward,McCann &
Geoghegan, 1973. "An impassioned and eloquent statement of resistance
to the Greek Colonels by the legendary hero,poet and composer of the
music for "Z". " 334p
Tsoucalas, Constantine. The Greek Tragedy. Penguin. 1969 (ISBN
0-14-052277-8), A survey of the history of modern Greece from the War
of Independence explaining the events leading up to the Juta
coup-d-etat in 1967. Comprehensive and thoughtful.
Vassilikos, Vassilis. Outside the Walls. Harcourt,Brace,Jovanovich.
1st.US ed. 1973 (ISBN 0-15-170515-1), "The author of "Z" depicts, with
anger and compassion, the lives and times of Greeks in the decade
before the Colonels" 192p.
Vlachos, Helen. House Arrest. Boston: Gambit, 1970. Eleni Vlachou,
owner of the influential daily "Kathimerini" at the time of the
Colonels military coup, refused to print a censored newspaper. After
being held under house arrest in Athens she finally escaped (using
false papers) and revealed the tyranny of the Junta. 183p. plates.
index.
Woodhouse, C.M.. The Rise and Fall of the Greek Colonels. London:
Granada, 1985.
http://www.theplaka.com/history/modern/hmbibleo.htm
Greece The Accession of the Colonels, 1967
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/greece/greece_history_the_accession_of_the_colonels_1967.html
Source: The Library of Congress Country Studies
<< BACK TO HISTORY CONTENTS
The leaders of the self-styled "Glorious Revolution" were two colonels
and a brigadier general, whose regime came to be known simply as "the
junta," or "the colonels." Supporters of the coup were predominantly
officers from lower-class backgrounds who had achieved status through
career advancement in the armed forces. Fearful of losing their posts
because of their involvement in right-wing conspiracies, they acted
out of self-preservation, under the flimsy pretense of forestalling a
communist takeover and defending Helleno-Christian civilization in
general. The junta succeeded because of the political leadership
vacuum at the time and because they were able to strike quickly and
effectively. By seizing the main lines of communication, they
presented an unsuspecting nation with a fait accompli.
Initially the colonels tried to rule through the king and the existing
political system. But, gaining the cooperation of very few
politicians, they soon began to arrest all those who showed signs of
resisting the takeover, consolidating as much power as possible in
their own hands. Andreas Papandreou, for example, was arrested for his
connection to the Aspida group; he was released only under intense
international pressure. As the methods of the colonels began to
resemble those of the Metaxas dictatorship, Constantine organized a
countercoup in December 1967 then fled into exile when his plan
failed.
Colonel Georgios Papadopoulos, one of three officers who led the coup,
rose to the top of the regime and remained there until November 1973.
The junta's aims and policies were a curious mixture of populist
reforms and paternalistic authoritarianism backed by propaganda and
terror. The overarching, proclaimed intent of the military government
was to purge Greek society of the moral sickness that had developed
since the war. Their more frivolous social policies included the
banning of miniskirts and the mandatory short hair for men. The regime
lacked a base of popular support and remained in power through terror.
A formidable secret police apparatus monitored society, using torture
and committing other human rights violations that were widely reported
by international organizations. In the first three years, the main
targets of this policy were known supporters of the communists, but
many centrist figures also were arrested.
The regime's brutality made it an international pariah. The only
foreign dignitary of note to visit Greece during this period was the
Greek-American United States vice president, Spiro Agnew. Greece
withdrew from the EC in 1969 to avoid suspension of its association
agreement. Nevertheless, Greece's NATO allies confined themselves to
verbal condemnation because the regime fulfilled every geopolitical
requirement, anchoring the alliance's defenses in the unstable eastern
Mediterranean. The United States broke off full diplomatic relations
only briefly after Constantine's exile; although military aid to
Greece decreased between 1967 and 1973, in 1972 the United States
negotiated permanent access to Greek port facilities for its Sixth
Fleet.
Data as of December 1994
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/greece/greece_history_the_accession_of_the_colonels_1967.html
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The regime thereafter continued its authoritarian course, and hundreds
of opponents were arrested. After investigating complaints of the use
of torture on political prisoners, the Human Rights Commission of the
Council of Europe concluded that it was a "current administrative
practice" of the government. Greece then withdrew from the council
rather than face expulsion. The government succeeded, however, in
establishing closer relations with Communist nations including the
People's Republic of China in 1970. The United States resisted
pressures to deny weapons to the Papadopoulos regime.
http://au.encarta.msn.com/text_761572872___37/Greece.html
Encyclopedia Article from Encarta
Page 7 of 7
Greece
Multimedia
F 11 The Colonels' Coup
On April 21, however, a group of army officers overthrew the
government and seized power. Several thousand political figures,
specifically left-wingers and Communists, were arrested. Constantine
Kollias, Chief Prosecutor of the Supreme Court, was appointed Prime
Minister. The military junta issued a series of decrees suspending the
1952 constitution and most civil liberties, imposing censorship on
news media, suspending political parties, and outlawing a host of
organizations. After an abortive attempt in December to overthrow the
junta, King Constantine went into exile in Italy. The junta then
installed a new Cabinet headed by Colonel Georgios Papadopoulos.
General Georgios Zoitakis was named viceroy and regent. On March 15,
1968, Papadopoulos presented the draft of a new constitution, which
was later revised and ratified by popular referendum.
The regime thereafter continued its authoritarian course, and hundreds
of opponents were arrested. After investigating complaints of the use
of torture on political prisoners, the Human Rights Commission of the
Council of Europe concluded that it was a "current administrative
practice" of the government. Greece then withdrew from the council
rather than face expulsion. The government succeeded, however, in
establishing closer relations with Communist nations including the
People's Republic of China in 1970. The United States resisted
pressures to deny weapons to the Papadopoulos regime.
In the early 1970s the government restored some civil rights that had
been suspended after the junta took power. On June 1, 1973, it
abolished the monarchy, proclaimed Greece a republic, and appointed
Papadopoulos to the presidency, to serve until 1981. After his
inauguration in August, he proclaimed a broad amnesty for political
offences and promised new elections in 1974. A civilian Cabinet took
office in October.
F 12 Fall of the Junta
Student anti-government riots in the autumn of 1973 led to the
reimposition of martial law. Then, on November 25, the military
removed Papadopoulos for failure to maintain order and named
Lieutenant-General Phaidon Gizikis as President. Encouragement of a
coup that only temporarily removed Archbishop Makarios from the
presidency of Cyprus, followed by the Turkish invasion of the island,
led the junta to step down in July 1974. Gizikis recalled Karamanlis
from exile to form the first civilian government since 1967. After an
election in November, Karamanlis, heading the New Democracy Party,
formed a new government; Gizikis resigned in December. A referendum on
the restoration of the monarchy was defeated in December, and a new
republican constitution was approved in June 1975.
http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572872_7/Greece.html
For the readers,
As you can see from the above information, torture and exile
were used widely by the April 21 1967 junta. There are plenty more
links and information available. The strange diversion by some of the
junta supporters which claim "Christian Orthodox values" were
instilled while at the same time the junta committed torture upon
political oppenents is laughable. The junta was guilty of these things
which are in no way , shape or form to be confused with "Christian
Orthodox values".
Dionysios Pilarinos
even one of my statements resulted in your flooding this thread with
irrelevant (as to the topic of Christian values) content.
What does a book that itself claims is "presented as fiction" have to do
with a historic discussion? You mention Panagoulis (an Army deserter who
attempted to assassinate the Prime Minister)... who was not executed for his
crime (which at that time carried that penalty) and was even PARDONED some 5
years later! You mention some tourist that died in Hellas at the time... as
if the government had a role in it (do I make the same ridiculous claims
about crimes against tourists today?)!
Will you provide the name of *1* person who was "tortured to death" as you
claimed? Will you compare the social policies of the Revolution with those
of the "democracy" (so as to ascertain who better supported Christian
values)?
I am going to guess that the answer will be no. You simply deleted my
statements, re-posted your previous comments (which were answered), and then
cut-and-pasted irrelevant content. Is this how debate work in your
"democracy"? Then again, Hellenic "democracy" (the post-1974 kind) is not
known for conducting debates (which is quite indicative of the level of
democracy).
"Manos" <Parmen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
Manos
Values" term which you try to pan off that these are the same values
that were practiced consistently by your "glorious revolution". Noone
else on this forum attempted to legitimize their political party
leanings by injecting religion into the conversation, only you did so,
so no explanation is needed by anyone else here to try and protect or
justify the actions of other politcians or political parties in a
*religious* light but in your case you must do so since it was you who
try and claim that your junta occupied a moral "high-ground" by
throwing religion into the mix and by stating that the junta upheld
"Orthodox Christian Values". I posted some information which clearly
shows that the April 21 1967 junta was one that physically *tortured*
and exiled political opponents. Now, please explain how can it be that
your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
opponents or those suspected of being political opponents. If you did
not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
21 1967 junta. The black history of your "glorious junta" speaks for
itself:
http://www.ciaonet.org/isa/gas02/
http://www.theplaka.com/history/modern/hmbibleo.htm
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/greece/greece_history_the_accession_of_the_colonels_1967.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://au.encarta.msn.com/text_761572872___37/Greece.html
http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572872_7/Greece.html
For the readers,
Orthodox values". But to the brainwashed minscule minority such as Mr.
Pilarinos , torture, beatings and murder are synonymous with
Christianity and are legitimate means of eradicating political
opposition. Unfortunately this same disease spread to Cyprus in 1974
and now because of that, 30 years later 37% of Cyprus is now still in
Turkish hands.
"After investigating complaints of the use
of torture on political prisoners ( by the April 1967 junta), the
Dionysios Pilarinos
> Values" term which you try to pan off that these are the same values
> that were practiced consistently by your "glorious revolution".
Do you want a conversation now? If so, so back and read and/or reply to the
answers I provided to your statements. I am not going to repeat myself,
especially on matter for which an answer was given.
> Noone
> else on this forum attempted to legitimize their political party
> leanings by injecting religion into the conversation, only you did so,
> so no explanation is needed by anyone else here to try and protect or
> justify the actions of other politcians or political parties in a
> *religious* light but in your case you must do so since it was you who
> try and claim that your junta occupied a moral "high-ground" by
> throwing religion into the mix and by stating that the junta upheld
> "Orthodox Christian Values".
That's some run-on sentence there! Let me try and REPEAT what I have ALREADY
stated. I have never used religion to "excuse" or "justify" the Revolution
or any of its actions. I was answering a direct insult against the CHARACTER
of those that led the Revolution. Those that led the Revolution were or are
(for those still living) deeply religious men. Their inspiration and
motivation was to protect the Hellenic Orthodox values and traditions of the
nation. My EXACT statement was "the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
Christian Orthodox values." Does the above statement sound like I was using
religion as a JUSTIFICATION for the abolishment of the previous regime?
For a THIRD time I ask you to examine the laws and policies of the
Revolution on social matters (and I mentioned a few of them for you).
> I posted some information which clearly
> shows that the April 21 1967 junta was one that physically *tortured*
> and exiled political opponents.
What happened? From making claims about citizens being "tortured to death"
you are now simply talking about torture and exile? The International Red
Cross had been authorized repeatedly by the government to investigate the
detention conditions of prisoners, and there is absolutely *NO* indication
of systematic abuse or torture of prisoners. You are free to provide reports
by this independent and international organization (which was authorized to
visit and record conditions at correctional facilities) that support any of
your wild claims. As for "exile", mention *1* person that was exiled
(expelled from the country).
As for "political opponents", those that were CONVICTED (in most cases for
terrorist activities) by a COURT OF LAW were imprisoned or otherwise
detained. Today, these same "political opponents" openly admit of
participating in "anti-junta" activities (meaning bombings or activities
associated with terrorist organizations).
> Now, please explain how can it be that
> your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
> same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
> opponents or those suspected of being political opponents.
First you'll have to prove your assertions. Second, you cannot re-write
history. The leadership of the revolution was "ridiculed" by the opposition
for being "religious zealots". They were attacked for promoting public
decency like banning mini-skirts or nude sunbathing. They were attacked for
being socially "conservative" and for not advancing the social changes that
happened after 1974 (abortion, divorce, civil weddings, womens' "rights",
adultery, etc.)
So I am in the predicament of having some (most all) in the "anti-junta"
camp claiming that the Revolution leaders were "religious zealots" and
social conservatives, and you claiming that they were in fact doing the
opposite!
> If you did
> not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
> such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
> 21 1967 junta.
Explain how you "exposed" me for being a "hypocrite"? I've to see you
produce facts or respond to those I presented.
> The black history of your "glorious junta" speaks for
> itself:
[snip irrelevant flood]
The topic for which you got so "upset" what that relating to religion
(Hellenic Orthodox values) and the Revolution. Keep pasting all the
irrelevant content you want, but that does not help in supporting your
assertions.
PS: I'm not going to play this "cut-and-paste" game with you. I provided
enough information for you to respond to. You ignore all rules of etiquette
and debate by deleting them and repeating the same diatribe. When you have
the knowledge or courage to answer the points I presented to you, then this
conversation can resume. Otherwise I do not see a point in repeating myself
just to have you delete and ignore what is presented.
Good day.
Manos
> "Manos" <Parmen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
> > Mr Pilarinos, you were the one that filched the "Christian Orthodox
> > Values" term which you try to pan off that these are the same values
> > that were practiced consistently by your "glorious revolution".
>
> Do you want a conversation now? If so, so back and read and/or reply to the
> answers I provided to your statements. I am not going to repeat myself,
> especially on matter for which an answer was given.
>
> > Noone
> > else on this forum attempted to legitimize their political party
> > leanings by injecting religion into the conversation, only you did so,
> > so no explanation is needed by anyone else here to try and protect or
> > justify the actions of other politcians or political parties in a
> > *religious* light but in your case you must do so since it was you who
> > try and claim that your junta occupied a moral "high-ground" by
> > throwing religion into the mix and by stating that the junta upheld
> > "Orthodox Christian Values".
>
> That's some run-on sentence there! Let me try and REPEAT what I have ALREADY
> stated. I have never used religion to "excuse" or "justify" the Revolution
> or any of its actions. I was answering a direct insult against the CHARACTER
> of those that led the Revolution. Those that led the Revolution were or are
> (for those still living) deeply religious men.
........deeply religious men , who just happened to be part of
systematic physical torture. Interesting.
Their inspiration and
> motivation was to protect the Hellenic Orthodox values and traditions of the
> nation.
...............by removing the toe-nails of political
prisoners with a pliers or jumping on their stomach ( according to
Amnesty International) . Interesting.
My EXACT statement was "the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
> Christian Orthodox values." Does the above statement sound like I was using
> religion as a JUSTIFICATION for the abolishment of the previous regime?
>
> For a THIRD time I ask you to examine the laws and policies of the
> Revolution on social matters (and I mentioned a few of them for you).
>
>
> > I posted some information which clearly
> > shows that the April 21 1967 junta was one that physically *tortured*
> > and exiled political opponents.
>
> What happened? From making claims about citizens being "tortured to death"
> you are now simply talking about torture and exile?
Oh so it's ok that these poor political prisoners might have
been "ONLY" tortured. Wow, you are a true humanitarian.
The International Red
> Cross had been authorized repeatedly by the government to investigate the
> detention conditions of prisoners, and there is absolutely *NO* indication
> of systematic abuse or torture of prisoners. You are free to provide reports
> by this independent and international organization (which was authorized to
> visit and record conditions at correctional facilities) that support any of
> your wild claims. As for "exile", mention *1* person that was exiled
> (expelled from the country).
>
The reports are contained in the links provided. Amnesty
International and the Human Rights Commission of The Council of
Europe made their investigations and have found that the prisoners
under your "glorious junta" regime were engaged in systematic physical
torture of the prisoners. Many more links are available to further
prove that point if need be.
> As for "political opponents", those that were CONVICTED (in most cases for
> terrorist activities) by a COURT OF LAW were imprisoned or otherwise
> detained. Today, these same "political opponents" openly admit of
> participating in "anti-junta" activities (meaning bombings or activities
> associated with terrorist organizations).
>
> > Now, please explain how can it be that
> > your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
> > same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
> > opponents or those suspected of being political opponents.
>
> First you'll have to prove your assertions.
I already did. You mentioned that the junta was upholding "Orthodox
Christian Values" and I countered that wtih the historical fact that
your junta was engaged in physical torture of it's political
opponents. The 2 do not sit well together.
Second, you cannot re-write
> history. The leadership of the revolution was "ridiculed" by the opposition
> for being "religious zealots". They were attacked for promoting public
> decency like banning mini-skirts or nude sunbathing. They were attacked for
> being socially "conservative" and for not advancing the social changes that
> happened after 1974 (abortion, divorce, civil weddings, womens' "rights",
> adultery, etc.)
>
> So I am in the predicament of having some (most all) in the "anti-junta"
> camp claiming that the Revolution leaders were "religious zealots" and
> social conservatives, and you claiming that they were in fact doing the
> opposite!
I don't know what anyone else has told you. But it is clear that
men who remove the toe-nails and teeth of their political opponents or
step on their stomachs or cut off their air supply through
strangulation of their windpipes were certainly NOT upholding
"Orthodox Christian Values". If you did not want to look like a
hypocrite then you should have never mentioned "Christian" in the same
post or sentence to describe your junta.
>
> > If you did
> > not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
> > such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
> > 21 1967 junta.
>
> Explain how you "exposed" me for being a "hypocrite"? I've to see you
> produce facts or respond to those I presented.
Easy, you mentioned that your junta was upholding "Orthodox
Christian values" and I pretty much squashed that by posting the facts
of their torture practices.
>
> > The black history of your "glorious junta" speaks for
> > itself:
> [snip irrelevant flood]
>
> The topic for which you got so "upset" what that relating to religion
> (Hellenic Orthodox values) and the Revolution. Keep pasting all the
> irrelevant content you want, but that does not help in supporting your
> assertions.
>
> PS: I'm not going to play this "cut-and-paste" game with you. I provided
> enough information for you to respond to. You ignore all rules of etiquette
You talk about "ettiquette" while at the same time it's
historically clear that your junta was engaged in seriously inhumane
behavior by torturing it's political opponents. Or are you trying to
say that the junta cronies that were doing the torturing "atleast"
used proper torture "ettiquette" and sterilized the pliers that were
used to remove the toe-nails and teeth of their victims?.
Mr Pilarinos, you were the one that filched the "Christian Orthodox
Values" term which you try to pan off that these are the same values
that were practiced consistently by your "glorious revolution". Noone
else on this forum attempted to legitimize their political party
leanings by injecting religion into the conversation, only you did so,
so no explanation is needed by anyone else here to try and protect or
justify the actions of other politcians or political parties in a
*religious* light but in your case you must do so since it was you who
try and claim that your junta occupied a moral "high-ground" by
throwing religion into the mix and by stating that the junta upheld
"Orthodox Christian Values". I posted some information which clearly
shows that the April 21 1967 junta was one that physically *tortured*
and exiled political opponents. Now, please explain how can it be that
your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
opponents or those suspected of being political opponents. If you did
not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
21 1967 junta. The black history of your "glorious junta" speaks for
itself:
Perhaps the most dramatic and emotional of the legal proceedings taken
stardimi***
> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c9o3vm$b6b$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
> > Ouuuust kopriti ;-)))
> >
> > O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos to idio, o Pi-pi-Latrinos akomh
> > ntrepetai na to paradextei kai to krybei ;-)))
> >
> > Salamalekum MEHMET ;-))))
>
> You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and 9-year-olds
> think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
>
> Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and reintroduced
> Christian Orthodox values.
Opws to na omhloume Agglika? Den hksera oti ayto einai meros ths
orthodokshs paradoshs. En pash periptosh ayto pou les proypothetei oti
yphrxe politistikh syrriknwsh thn opoia anastrepse h Xounta. Omws
aytou pou polles palies karabanes den katalabenoun einai oti oi
allages pou symbenoun se mia koinwnia den einai apla monodiastata
fainomena kai sxedon panta epiferoun problhmata mazi me ta thetika
pragamata ths proodou. H epistrofh stis rizes spania epilyei ta
problhmata. Mallwn ta gigantwnei.
> It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> civil weddings, easing divorce, legalizing abortion) that has led to the
> social problems that
> exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
Kat arxas tis "Ellhnikes aksies" opws esy tis orizeis den tis
ephreasan oi politikoi, alla oi idioi oi polites pou epeleksan na
aksiopoihsoun tous neous thesmous. Kaneis den tous ypoxrewse. Esy
anoikeis sth sxolh pou pisteyei oti to kratos einai mia stathera pou
prepei na epibalei stous polites tis aksies pou thewrei swstes. Dhladh
to kratos na patronarei tous polites. Se ena tetoio montelo opou oi
polites den kseroun titheloun den xreiazontai profanws kai ekloges.
Antithetws h dhmokratia orizei oti to kratos einai to athrisma twn
epithymiwn twn politwn. An oi epithymeies allazoun tote kai oi aksies
allazoun. Kai xwris na ta polylogw, to montelw aksiwn to opoio esy
orizeis ws Ellhnorthodokso, einai to montelo ths mh astikopoihmenhs
koinwnias, to opoio den einai katholou Ellhnorthodokso, alla paromoio
se oles tis koinwnies prin apo 100 xronia, dhl, Agglia, Germania,
Italia klp. Omws oi aksies allazoun me parallhlo tropo se oles aytes
tis xwres me thn anstikopoihsh twn koinwniwn aytwn. H zwh sthn polh
einai poly diaforetikh apo ayth tou xwrgiou kai epibalei allagh stis
aksies me ena defacto tropo.
Dionysios Pilarinos
> > Do you want a conversation now? If so, so back and read and/or reply to
the
> > answers I provided to your statements. I am not going to repeat myself,
> > especially on matter for which an answer was given.
No comment?
> > That's some run-on sentence there! Let me try and REPEAT what I have
ALREADY
> > stated. I have never used religion to "excuse" or "justify" the
Revolution
> > or any of its actions. I was answering a direct insult against the
CHARACTER
> > of those that led the Revolution. Those that led the Revolution were or
are
> > (for those still living) deeply religious men.
>
> ........deeply religious men , who just happened to be part of
> systematic physical torture. Interesting.
Prove it, like I asked you. You have a report from the International Red
Cross that supports your claim, right?
> Their inspiration and
> > motivation was to protect the Hellenic Orthodox values and traditions of
the
> > nation.
>
> ...............by removing the toe-nails of political
> prisoners with a pliers or jumping on their stomach ( according to
> Amnesty International) . Interesting.
Show the report. BTW, Amnesty was founded in 1961, not exactly an "expert"
on human rights abuses (especially in 1967-1973). Amnesty also uses local
(unqualified) representatives to author reports. Who authored any report
about abuses in Hellas (in 1967-1973)? How did they get first-hand access to
prisons and other detention facilities?
Out of curiosity, have you read the most recent reports by Amnesty on
Hellas? I'd like for you to comment on whether or not they are accurate and
reflective of rampant human rights abuses (especially against "Macedonians"
and Albanians).
> My EXACT statement was "the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> > cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
reintroduced
> > Christian Orthodox values." Does the above statement sound like I was
using
> > religion as a JUSTIFICATION for the abolishment of the previous regime?
No comment?
> > For a THIRD time I ask you to examine the laws and policies of the
> > Revolution on social matters (and I mentioned a few of them for you).
No comment?
> > What happened? From making claims about citizens being "tortured to
death"
> > you are now simply talking about torture and exile?
>
> Oh so it's ok that these poor political prisoners might have
> been "ONLY" tortured. Wow, you are a true humanitarian.
Is that what I wrote? You made a FALSE claim, and I asked you to provide
evidence that supports your assertion. You could not and did not. Now YOU
are "minimizing" the "crimes" of the "junta" (to "only" torture), but have
yet to PROVE your claims.
> The International Red
> > Cross had been authorized repeatedly by the government to investigate
the
> > detention conditions of prisoners, and there is absolutely *NO*
indication
> > of systematic abuse or torture of prisoners. You are free to provide
reports
> > by this independent and international organization (which was authorized
to
> > visit and record conditions at correctional facilities) that support any
of
> > your wild claims. As for "exile", mention *1* person that was exiled
> > (expelled from the country).
>
> The reports are contained in the links provided.
You have a link to a report by the International Red Cross (for any period
between 1967-1973)? Check again (although you know the answer).
> Amnesty
> International and the Human Rights Commission of The Council of
> Europe made their investigations
What investigations? Were they authorized and did they monitor the detention
conditions of prisoners? Or did Amnesty report every claim as fact (much
like they do today, but I'm sure you ignore that)? As for the "Council of
Europe" (a political organization), this is the same organization that has
fascist-Kemalist Turkey (the occupier of Cyprus) as a current member, right?
> and have found that the prisoners
> under your "glorious junta" regime were engaged in systematic physical
> torture of the prisoners. Many more links are available to further
> prove that point if need be.
So far, no reports. You mention the exact "cut-and-paste" statement from
numerous sources about the actions of a POLITICAL organization.
> > As for "political opponents", those that were CONVICTED (in most cases
for
> > terrorist activities) by a COURT OF LAW were imprisoned or otherwise
> > detained. Today, these same "political opponents" openly admit of
> > participating in "anti-junta" activities (meaning bombings or activities
> > associated with terrorist organizations).
No comment?
> > > Now, please explain how can it be that
> > > your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
> > > same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
> > > opponents or those suspected of being political opponents.
> >
> > First you'll have to prove your assertions.
>
> I already did. You mentioned that the junta was upholding "Orthodox
> Christian Values" and I countered that wtih the historical fact that
> your junta was engaged in physical torture of it's political
> opponents. The 2 do not sit well together.
Where is this "fact"? That the "Council of Europe" (a political organization
that has not expelled Turkey) "concluded" that? The *ONLY* independent
non-political organization (Red Cross) with ACCESS to prisoners and
detention centers can make such a determination, and they have NOT.
> Second, you cannot re-write
> > history. The leadership of the revolution was "ridiculed" by the
opposition
> > for being "religious zealots". They were attacked for promoting public
> > decency like banning mini-skirts or nude sunbathing. They were attacked
for
> > being socially "conservative" and for not advancing the social changes
that
> > happened after 1974 (abortion, divorce, civil weddings, womens'
"rights",
> > adultery, etc.)
No comment?
> > So I am in the predicament of having some (most all) in the "anti-junta"
> > camp claiming that the Revolution leaders were "religious zealots" and
> > social conservatives, and you claiming that they were in fact doing the
> > opposite!
>
> I don't know what anyone else has told you.
Search the archives.
> But it is clear that
> men who remove the toe-nails and teeth of their political opponents or
> step on their stomachs or cut off their air supply through
> strangulation of their windpipes
You're watching too much television! Do you have just *1* report by *ANY*
organization (including those that falsified them) that makes the above
claims? Do you have the names of the victims and the compensation they
receive from the state today? Do you have the names of the abusers, when
they were convicted and how long they served?
> were certainly NOT upholding
> "Orthodox Christian Values".
And the current politicians do, right? The option in 1967 was to either take
control or let the country balance in the hands of the palace and
politicians (something that had created a crisis for 2 years). How many
(millions of) Hellenic children were murdered with the use of abortion? If
the "junta" was still in power they would all have had a chance at life. How
Christian Orthodox of you to ignore this FACT (but focus on tales of
"torture")!
> If you did not want to look like a
> hypocrite then you should have never mentioned "Christian" in the same
> post or sentence to describe your junta.
Ellas, Ellinon, Xristianon. I'm sure you prefer the "Christian values" of
those post-1974.
> > > If you did
> > > not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
> > > such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
> > > 21 1967 junta.
> >
> > Explain how you "exposed" me for being a "hypocrite"? I've to see you
> > produce facts or respond to those I presented.
>
> Easy, you mentioned that your junta was upholding "Orthodox
> Christian values" and I pretty much squashed that by posting the facts
> of their torture practices.
No facts presented. Furthermore, you failed to answer the questions
regarding every social issue mentioned. What criminal or social issue has
improved after 1974?
> > The topic for which you got so "upset" what that relating to religion
> > (Hellenic Orthodox values) and the Revolution. Keep pasting all the
> > irrelevant content you want, but that does not help in supporting your
> > assertions.
> >
> > PS: I'm not going to play this "cut-and-paste" game with you. I provided
> > enough information for you to respond to. You ignore all rules of
etiquette
>
> You talk about "ettiquette" while at the same time it's
> historically clear that your junta was engaged in seriously inhumane
> behavior by torturing it's political opponents.
Like WHO? Did Andreas Papadreou mention torture in his book? He was arrested
because of a judicial order in the ASPIDA case, and due to his parliamentary
immunity having lapsed (all prior to 21 April 1967). Did Theodorakis who was
convicted of being a leader of a terrorist organization which detonated
explosive devices?
I guess they only tortured the guys that tell the tales in the kafenia.
> Or are you trying to
> say that the junta cronies that were doing the torturing "atleast"
> used proper torture "ettiquette" and sterilized the pliers that were
> used to remove the toe-nails and teeth of their victims?.
Yes. That is exactly what I stated! Thanks for being so astute.
[snip repeated diatribe and cut-and-paste]
Dionysios Pilarinos
"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.04060...@posting.google.com...
> > You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and
9-year-olds
> > think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
> >
> > Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> > cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
reintroduced
> > Christian Orthodox values.
>
> Opws to na omhloume Agglika? Den hksera oti ayto einai meros ths
> orthodokshs paradoshs.
The conversation (thread) was started in English. It is proper ettiquete to
continue using the same language on forums that accept more than one
language. Is there a problem with that? BTW, what does the language used on
this thread have to do with the topic discussed?
Επίσης, αν θες να μιλάμε ελληνικά, παράτα τα "Greeklish"!
> En pash periptosh ayto pou les proypothetei oti
> yphrxe politistikh syrriknwsh thn opoia anastrepse h Xounta. Omws
> aytou pou polles palies karabanes den katalabenoun einai oti oi
> allages pou symbenoun se mia koinwnia den einai apla monodiastata
> fainomena kai sxedon panta epiferoun problhmata mazi me ta thetika
> pragamata ths proodou. H epistrofh stis rizes spania epilyei ta
> problhmata. Mallwn ta gigantwnei.
Οι αλλαγές στην κοινωνία μπορούν να γίνουν συντηρητικά, και πάντα με βάση
την πολιτιστική κληρονομιά και τις θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις του λαού.
> > It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> > attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery, introducing
> > civil weddings, easing divorce, legalizing abortion) that has led to the
> > social problems that
> > exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
>
> Kat arxas tis "Ellhnikes aksies" opws esy tis orizeis den tis
> ephreasan oi politikoi, alla oi idioi oi polites pou epeleksan na
> aksiopoihsoun tous neous thesmous. Kaneis den tous ypoxrewse.
Did the chicken make the egg, or the egg the chicken!?
Με αυτή τη λογική, ας ζούμε στην αναρχία! «Θεσμός» μπορεί να είναι τα
ναρκωτικά ή οι ομοφυλοφιλικοί «γάμοι». Ευθύνη δηλαδή δεν έχει το κράτος που
καθορίζει τι επιτρέπετε νομικά ή πως θα έχουν πρόσβαση σε αυτό οι πολίτες?
> Esy
> anoikeis sth sxolh pou pisteyei oti to kratos einai mia stathera pou
> prepei na epibalei stous polites tis aksies pou thewrei swstes. Dhladh
> to kratos na patronarei tous polites. Se ena tetoio montelo opou oi
> polites den kseroun titheloun den xreiazontai profanws kai ekloges.
Όχι. Ανήκω σε αυτούς που πιστεύουν ότι οι πολιτικοί «elite» δεν πρέπει να
επιβάλουν τις δικές τους κοινωνικές αντιλήψεις στους «οπισθοδρομικούς»
πολίτες. Πχ, την δεκαετία του 80 είχαμε την Nancy Παπανδρέου με τις
«φεμινίστριες» της που επέβαλαν στην Ελληνική κοινωνία ένα Αμερικανικό
σύστημα δικαίου για την οικογένεια και τους έγγαμους.
> Antithetws h dhmokratia orizei oti to kratos einai to athrisma twn
> epithymiwn twn politwn. An oi epithymeies allazoun tote kai oi aksies
> allazoun.
NEWS FLASH: Hellas is NOT a democracy! Είχαμε κανένα δημοψήφισμα για
οποιοδήποτε κοινωνικό θέμα?
> Kai xwris na ta polylogw, to montelw aksiwn to opoio esy
> orizeis ws Ellhnorthodokso, einai to montelo ths mh astikopoihmenhs
> koinwnias, to opoio den einai katholou Ellhnorthodokso, alla paromoio
> se oles tis koinwnies prin apo 100 xronia, dhl, Agglia, Germania,
> Italia klp. Omws oi aksies allazoun me parallhlo tropo se oles aytes
> tis xwres me thn anstikopoihsh twn koinwniwn aytwn. H zwh sthn polh
> einai poly diaforetikh apo ayth tou xwrgiou kai epibalei allagh stis
> aksies me ena defacto tropo.
Urbanization demands changes in attitudes about: Abortion? Civil Marriage?
Decriminalizing Adultery? Unrestricted Divorce? Or is it simply the
superiority complex of the "proteuousianon" over the "xoriates"?
Η αστικοποίηση δεν έχει καμία σχέση με τα παραπάνω θέματα. Επιβλήθηκαν στην
Ελληνική κοινωνία από εξωτερικούς παράγοντες και τους «προοδευτικούς» ελίτ.
Manos
Values" term which you try to pan off that these are the same values
that were practiced consistently by your "glorious revolution". Noone
else on this forum attempted to legitimize their political party
leanings by injecting religion into the conversation, only you did so,
so no explanation is needed by anyone else here to try and protect or
justify the actions of other politcians or political parties in a
*religious* light but in your case you must do so since it was you who
try and claim that your junta occupied a moral "high-ground" by
throwing religion into the mix and by stating that the junta upheld
"Orthodox Christian Values". I posted some information which clearly
shows that the April 21 1967 junta was one that physically *tortured*
your "glorious junta" upheld "Orthodox Christian values" when at the
same time that junta physically beat and/or tortured political
not want to be exposed as a hypocrite then you should never have used
such terminology as "Orthodox Christian Values" to describe the April
itself. Respected entities such as Amnesty International and the Human
Rights Commission of the Council of Europe have made their
investigations into the torture practices by your "glorious junta" and
have confirmed them. You are free to check out the links below to see
that.
stardimi****
From: "Dionysios Pilarinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia,alt.news.cyprus
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: Ex Greek Royals on ABC's 20 20
>
> "stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1edf1f1b.04060...@posting.google.com...
> > > You're projecting again. Only mental midgets, closet fags, and
> 9-year-olds
> > > think they're "insulting" someone by calling them a homosexual.
> > >
> > > Fact remains however that the April 21 1967 revolution destroyed the
> > > cultural degradation and bankruptcy that was taking place, and
> reintroduced
> > > Christian Orthodox values.
> >
> > Opws to na omhloume Agglika? Den hksera oti ayto einai meros ths
> > orthodokshs paradoshs.
>
> The conversation (thread) was started in English. It is proper ettiquete
to
> continue using the same language on forums that accept more than one
> language. Is there a problem with that? BTW, what does the language used
on
> this thread have to do with the topic discussed?
>
> Επίσης, αν θες να μιλάμε ελληνικά, παράτα τα "Greeklish"!
Απλώς ο ιε δεν ταν πάει πολύ καλά με τα ελληνικά...
>
> > En pash periptosh ayto pou les proypothetei oti
> > yphrxe politistikh syrriknwsh thn opoia anastrepse h Xounta. Omws
> > aytou pou polles palies karabanes den katalabenoun einai oti oi
> > allages pou symbenoun se mia koinwnia den einai apla monodiastata
> > fainomena kai sxedon panta epiferoun problhmata mazi me ta thetika
> > pragamata ths proodou. H epistrofh stis rizes spania epilyei ta
> > problhmata. Mallwn ta gigantwnei.
>
> Οι αλλαγές στην κοινωνία μπορούν να γίνουν συντηρητικά, και πάντα με βάση
> την πολιτιστική κληρονομιά και τις θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις του λαού.
Αυτό είναι κατά τη γώμη μου ουτοπικό καθώς προυποθέτει ότι υπάρχει κάποια
δύναμη που ελέγχει την εξέληξη. Όμως η τελευταία έχει τόσο ποικιλότροπες
εκφάνσεις που ουσιαστικά είναι ανεξέλενγκτη! Ας πάρουμε τη βιολογία. Ο λαός
θέλει φυσικά να είναι υγειής. Και θέλει και να ζεί παραπάνω. Άρα καλώς
χρηματοδοτούμε τη βιολογική έρευνα. Όμως η συμαντικότερη σήμερα έρευνα στα
βλαστικά κύταρα δημιοθργεί γκρίζα ζώνη στο ηθικό πεδίο, καθόσον προυποθέτει
διμιουργία ανθρωπο-βοδιών, βρεφών μερικών ημερών που καταστρέφονται για να
τους αφαιρεθουν κύταρα κλπ. Άρα δημιουργούνται περίερηγα δηλίματα που
συνήθως απαντώνται ντεφάκτο από την αποδοχή της αλλαγής (δηλ, πχ της
συγκεκριμένης έρευνας). Δεν υπάρχει κάποια δύναμη που να μπορεί να ρυθμίσει
αποτελεσματικά την εξέληξη. Και η εξέληξη αυτή δημιοθργεί πιέσεις για αλλαγή
των ηθικών αξιών, που αργά ή γρ΄γορα συμβένουν.
>
> > > It was only after 1974 that the politicians
> > > attacked the Hellenic family unit (decriminalizing adultery,
introducing
> > > civil weddings, easing divorce, legalizing abortion) that has led to
the
> > > social problems that
> > > exist today. What criminal and social issues have improved since 1974?
> >
> > Kat arxas tis "Ellhnikes aksies" opws esy tis orizeis den tis
> > ephreasan oi politikoi, alla oi idioi oi polites pou epeleksan na
> > aksiopoihsoun tous neous thesmous. Kaneis den tous ypoxrewse.
>
> Did the chicken make the egg, or the egg the chicken!?
> Με αυτή τη λογική, ας ζούμε στην αναρχία! «Θεσμός» μπορεί να είναι τα
> ναρκωτικά ή οι ομοφυλοφιλικοί «γάμοι». Ευθύνη δηλαδή δεν έχει το κράτος
που
> καθορίζει τι επιτρέπετε νομικά ή πως θα έχουν πρόσβαση σε αυτό οι πολίτες?
Η εξέληξη της κοινωνίας επιρεάζει τους νόμους, οι οποίοι και εφαρμόζωνται.
Όταν κάποιες νομοθεσίες αντιβένουν στο κοινο αίσθημα, τότε στις δημοκρατίες,
αργά η γρήγορα καταρρέουν. Π.χ. στην Αγγλία (και στην Ελλάδα εδώ που τα
λέμε) το χασίς είναι αρκετά συνηθισμένο <<ναρκωτικό>>. Όμως απαγορεύεται.
Στην Αγγλία πολύ πρόσφατα υπήρξε αλλαγή της κατηγοριοποίησης του χασίς ούτως
ώστε να είναι ουσιαστικά νόμημη η κατοχή του. Ένα απλό παραδειγμα
<<φυσικής>> αλλαγής του νόμου με βάση τις αλλαγές στην κοινωνία. Βέβαια δεν
είναι μόνο η κοινή αντιλυψη που επιρρεάζει τη νομοθεσία αλλά και οι
επιστήμονες. Βλέπε π.χ. κάπνισμα.
>
> > Esy
> > anoikeis sth sxolh pou pisteyei oti to kratos einai mia stathera pou
> > prepei na epibalei stous polites tis aksies pou thewrei swstes. Dhladh
> > to kratos na patronarei tous polites. Se ena tetoio montelo opou oi
> > polites den kseroun titheloun den xreiazontai profanws kai ekloges.
>
> Όχι. Ανήκω σε αυτούς που πιστεύουν ότι οι πολιτικοί «elite» δεν πρέπει να
> επιβάλουν τις δικές τους κοινωνικές αντιλήψεις στους «οπισθοδρομικούς»
> πολίτες. Πχ, την δεκαετία του 80 είχαμε την Nancy Παπανδρέου με τις
> «φεμινίστριες» της που επέβαλαν στην Ελληνική κοινωνία ένα Αμερικανικό
> σύστημα δικαίου για την οικογένεια και τους έγγαμους.
Εγώ καταρχάς δεν ψιφίζω πασοκ συνήθως... για να μη μπερδευόμαστε. Αλλά γιατί
λες ότι το επέβαλε; Με το να επιτρέπεται ο πολιτικός γάμος, δεν υποχρεώνεται
κάποιος να κάνει τέτοιο γάμο. Αυτό που έκανε ήταν στην ουσία άρση ενώς
άχριστου περιορισμού που δημιουργούσε προβλήματα σε ενά αριθμό ανθρώπων.
Αντίθετα η άρση του, δεν επηρέασε αυτούς που επιθυμούσαν θρυσκευτικό γάμο.
Άρα δεν βλέπω γιατί πρόκειται για επιβολή;
>
>
> > Antithetws h dhmokratia orizei oti to kratos einai to athrisma twn
> > epithymiwn twn politwn. An oi epithymeies allazoun tote kai oi aksies
> > allazoun.
>
> NEWS FLASH: Hellas is NOT a democracy! Είχαμε κανένα δημοψήφισμα για
> οποιοδήποτε κοινωνικό θέμα?
Το να κάνει κανείς δημοψηφίσματα για διαφορα θέματα είναι αδύνατο. Καμιά
κυβέρνηση δεν μπορεί να κυβερνησει έτσι. Εκ των πραγμάτων οι κυβερνησεις
κρινονται συνολικά στις εκλογές. Νομίζω ότι αυτό δεν μειώνει την
δημοκρατικότητα ενός πολυτεύματος.
>
> > Kai xwris na ta polylogw, to montelw aksiwn to opoio esy
> > orizeis ws Ellhnorthodokso, einai to montelo ths mh astikopoihmenhs
> > koinwnias, to opoio den einai katholou Ellhnorthodokso, alla paromoio
> > se oles tis koinwnies prin apo 100 xronia, dhl, Agglia, Germania,
> > Italia klp. Omws oi aksies allazoun me parallhlo tropo se oles aytes
> > tis xwres me thn anstikopoihsh twn koinwniwn aytwn. H zwh sthn polh
> > einai poly diaforetikh apo ayth tou xwrgiou kai epibalei allagh stis
> > aksies me ena defacto tropo.
>
> Urbanization demands changes in attitudes about: Abortion? Civil Marriage?
> Decriminalizing Adultery? Unrestricted Divorce? Or is it simply the
> superiority complex of the "proteuousianon" over the "xoriates"?
>
> Η αστικοποίηση δεν έχει καμία σχέση με τα παραπάνω θέματα. Επιβλήθηκαν
στην
> Ελληνική κοινωνία από εξωτερικούς παράγοντες και τους «προοδευτικούς»
ελίτ.
>
Ναι (στο πρώτο) !!! Δεν μπορώ τώρα να κάτσω να αναλύσω σε βάθος την
πολύπλοκη διαδικασία που οδηγεί σε αυτό το αποτέλεσμα, αλλά θα σου πώ ένα
δυό απλά πράγματα. Στο χωριό ερχόσουν σε επαφή αντε με 50 άτομα σε ένα
χρόνο. Στην πόλη σε ένα χρόνο βλεπεις πάνω απο 1000. Στο χωριό οι ρόλοι ήταν
διακρητοί. Ας πούμε η γυναίκα στο σπίτι και ο άντρας στο χωράφι. Αυτο
δημιουργούσε μια συγκεκριμένη κατασταση όπου οι γυναικες αλλά και οι άνδρες
έβλεπαν μόνο γυναίκες ή μόνο άνδρες συνήθως. Ηταν ένα απλό και σχετικά
ντετερμινιστικό κοινωνικό μοντέλο, που εκ'φύσεως δημιούργησε αντίστοιχες
οικογενιακές και κοινωνικές αξίες. Αυτές οι αξίες περεπιπτόντος ήταν ίδιες
και στην υπόλοιπη Ευρώπη παλιά. Όταν όμως οι άνθρωποι μετακόμησαν στις
πόλεις, το νέο οικονομικό μοντέλο που ντεφάκτο επιβλήθηκε απέτησε να
εργάζεται και ο άντρας και η γυναίκα πολλές φορές. Που σημαίνει οτι οι
γυναίκα για παράδειγμα εργάζεται μαζί με άνδρες όλη μέρα. Ίσως να βλέπει
αυτούς τους άντρες περισσότερο και απ το σύζηγό της πολλές φορές. Μετά η
εργασία αυτή διμιουργεί και μια αίσθηση ανεξαρτησίας στη γυναίκα που την
κάνει να λαμβάνει αποφάσεις και να έχει φιλοδοξίες. Όλα αυτα διμιουργουν
ισχυρές κοινονικες πιέσεις εναντίων του απλού ντετερμινιστικού μοντέλου του
χωριού, και πάλι με ένα αναπόφευκτο τρόπο. Αυτές οι πιέσεις σταδιακά
μετατρέπονται σε κοινωνικές απαιτήσεις για απελευθέρωση από παλιές
ξεπερασμένες πλέον αντιλύψεις, και στη συνέχεια μετασχηματίζονται σε ψήφους
και πολιτική. Για τη μοιχεία για παράδειγμα, στο χωριό ήταν κάπως ασυνήθιστο
και κατα συνέπεια ανεπιθύμητο, πράγμα, που τελικάα έγινε και νόμος. ΄|Ομως
στην αστική ζωή, αυτό έγινε πολύ πιο συνιθισμένο με αποτέλεσμα ο νομικός
περιορισμός να γίνει στην πράξη ανούσιος και αναχρονιστικός. Όχι οτι είναι
καλό να απατάς το σύζηγό σου. Αλλά πλέον δεν είναι και έγκλημα!
Dionysios Pilarinos
[snip]
Trolling?
Go back and answer the points made, and refrain from flooding the newsgroup
with the same message.
I'm sorry, I guess I'm not accustomed to your democratic debate tactics. The
previous sentence is in sarcasm in case it escapes you.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> wrote in message
[snip]
> Όχι. Ανήκω σε αυτούς που πιστεύουν ότι οι πολιτικοί «elite» δεν πρέπει να
> επιβάλουν τις δικές τους κοινωνικές αντιλήψεις στους «οπισθοδρομικούς»
> πολίτες. Πχ, την δεκαετία του 80 είχαμε την Nancy Παπανδρέου με τις
> «φεμινίστριες» της που επέβαλαν στην Ελληνική κοινωνία ένα Αμερικανικό
> σύστημα δικαίου για την οικογένεια και τους έγγαμους.
CORRECTION. The death of Reagan made me unconciously think about another
American widow. I meant to say Margaret Chant.
Manos
BTW, your hero Papadopoulos was involved in hunting down GREEK
RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WHO WERE STRUGGLING TO RID THE NATION OF NAZI
OCCUPATION. Now there is a good Hellene for you!.
( That last sentence was sarcasm in case you didn't catch on)
George Papadopoulos
1919-1999
Captain, Nazi Security Battalion, WWII; was hunting down Greek
resistance fighters.
Trained in the U.S. by the CIA and its predecessor, the Office of
Strategic Services.
Went on CIA payroll (1952)
Engineered the "Colonel's Coup" and seized power from the
democratically-elected prime minister, George Papandreou (1967)
Declared himself prime minister (1968)
He was replaced by a CIA-trained colonel, Ioannidis, who named yet
another CIA man, Androutsopolous, as the prime minister (1973)
"F**k your Parliament and your Constitution.... If your Prime
Minister [Papandreou] gives me talk about democracy, parliaments and
constitutions, he, his Parliament and his Constitution may not last
very long."
Pres. Lyndon Johnson, said this to Greek Ambassador in U.S.,
mid-1960s. (from Philip Deane's I Should Have Died, 1977.
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue43/articles/1947_1970s_greece.htm
CIA-Backed Coup, 1967
The next elections were scheduled for April 1967, but just two days
before, George Papadopoulos seized power in a military coup.
Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll since 1952. He was trained
in the U.S. by the OSS and CIA. During World War II, he was a captain
in the Nazis' Security Battalion that hunted down Greek resistance
fighters. Of the five junta officers, four were connected to either
the CIA or the U.S. military in Greece. The military junta decreed
martial law followed by censorship, arrests and beatings. In the
first month, 8,000 civilians were victims of the oppressive policies.
In 1968, Papadopoulos became prime minister.
Testimony to the U.S. House Intelligence Committee, revealed
that the junta contributed financially to Richard Nixon's successful
1968 presidential campaign. Vice President Spiro Agnew, who was of
Greek descent, angered many Greeks when he visited in 1971, embraced
the junta leaders and called them the country's best leaders since
Pericles ruled ancient Athens.
In 1969, the European Commission of Human Rights - consisting of
18 European countries - found Greece guilty abusing human rights. The
commission refuted the government's claim that it had used oppressive
measures because the country was on the verge of a communist takeover.
Another CIA PM, 1973
In November 1973, Papadopoulos was forced out of power in a military
shake-up. He was replaced by Colonel Demetrios Ioannidis, commander
of the military police, who had been trained in torture and subversive
techniques by the CIA. He named a new prime minister, A.
Androutsopolous, who had been on the CIA payroll following World War
II.
The U.S. government never admitted its support for the Greek
military junta until November 1999.
gogu
The arch-TROLL, the FASCIST who has a page praising the hated junta,
Pi-pi-Latrinos the NAZI Turkish TROLL, is accusing other posters of ...
trolling ;-)))
But when decency was something those FASCIST Turks like him had ? ;-)))
Papadopoulos was a faggot, Patakos the same, Pi-pi-Latrinos is their
successor ;-)
Pipes sthn Xoynta kai ston Pi-pi-Latrino ;-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI TURKISH TROLL Pi-pi-Latrinos"
<dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:h7axc.71034$mX.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
gogu
news:<h7axc.71034$mX.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> > "Manos" <Parmen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
> > [snip]
> >
> > Trolling?
> > Go back and answer the points made, and refrain from flooding the
newsgroup
> > with the same message.
> >
> > I'm sorry, I guess I'm not accustomed to your democratic debate tactics.
The
> > previous sentence is in sarcasm in case it escapes you.
> BTW, your hero Papadopoulos was involved in hunting down GREEK
> RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WHO WERE STRUGGLING TO RID THE NATION OF NAZI
> OCCUPATION. Now there is a good Hellene for you!.
Mano, egw panta lew gia kati ka8armata san to Pi-pi-Latrino, "mila me kwloys
na akoyseis pordes"...
Xeston ton blaka, den aksizei oyte to salio na ton briseis ton tri-malaka
:-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
> ( That last sentence was sarcasm in case you didn't catch on)
Dionysios Pilarinos
> > Go back and answer the points made, and refrain from flooding the
newsgroup
> > with the same message.
Well, will you answer those points, or cower away?
> > I'm sorry, I guess I'm not accustomed to your democratic debate tactics.
The
> > previous sentence is in sarcasm in case it escapes you.
And again, instead of sticking to the subject (the former Royals or the
subsequent thread you initiated regarding their positions on Orthodoxy)...
you instead start YET ANOTHER topic about the "civil war" during the Nazi
occupation of Hellas.
> BTW, your hero Papadopoulos was involved in hunting down GREEK
> RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WHO WERE STRUGGLING TO RID THE NATION OF NAZI
> OCCUPATION. Now there is a good Hellene for you!.
Get a clue, and start reading non-biased sources! Another Hellenic hero
(recognized and decorated by the Hellenic state) was Grivas - and guess what
he was also doing during the occupation? He and his organization (X) were
recognized by Royal decree for their anti-communist actions. It was EAM/ELAS
that was targeting all other Hellenic resistance forces (for instance,
wiping out Psaras' forces), and allying themselves with foreigners seeking
to partition Macedonia.
It is quite PATHETIC for this "democracy" to be so vehemently "anti-right"
that they are attacking the forces and people who kept Hellas united and
outside the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you would have been happy if EAM/ELAS had
succeeded unopposed?
> ( That last sentence was sarcasm in case you didn't catch on)
The sarcasm is you calling communists seeking an independent Macedonia
(while killing other Hellenes) "resitance fighters"! Learn history and then
concern yourself with the concept of sarcasm.
> George Papadopoulos
> 1919-1999
The source for this? I'm sorry, I guess we're having a kafenio debate. No
need for sources or facts.
[snip]
> Engineered the "Colonel's Coup" and seized power from the
> democratically-elected prime minister, George Papandreou (1967)
Papandreou was the "democratically-elected prime minister" in 1967? Says a
whole lot about the accuracy of your sources! Like I stated, read up and
then talk!
> CIA-Backed Coup, 1967
>
> The next elections were scheduled for April 1967, but just two days
> before, George Papadopoulos seized power in a military coup.
Where do you get your sources?! Do you want to stick to the claim that the
elections were scheduled for April 23 1967? Are you serious? Is the above
from the same source that states that Papandreou was the PM in 1967?
> Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll since 1952.
And your evidence of this is??? Mind you, in the USA they have the "Freedom
of Information Act". Go inquire about it, and then ask the CIA if your
statement is valid (by law they have to release - AGAIN - that information).
> He was trained
> in the U.S. by the OSS and CIA.
He was the head of KYP (the Hellenic CIA). I would hope so!
[snip]
> Vice President Spiro Agnew, who was of
> Greek descent, angered many Greeks when he visited in 1971, embraced
> the junta leaders and called them the country's best leaders since
> Pericles ruled ancient Athens.
And they were on every account.
[snip]
> The U.S. government never admitted its support for the Greek
> military junta until November 1999.
More nonsense! If you're talking about Clinton's statement, do a search on
google groups for the ridicule your buddy gogu got for LYING (yet again)
about what Clinton said.
The US government had an arms embargo in place from 1967 till late 1971. The
US Congress held numerous sessions of committees looking into claims of
"human rights abuses". At the same time, we were receiving new and used
military hardware from France and Germany. The "fascist junta" was also
recognized by all communist states, and relations were at their best with
the USSR and China.
For being a CIA/US Government coup, they sure didn't know much when it took
place, nor did they seem to eager to support it! But a kafenio discussion
would not be complete without blaming the CIA and USA, or even those damn
MIB (Men in Black)!
Just so I know, do you think you will ever stick to a topic? I'd like to
know how many issues you'll run away from.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> Mano, egw panta lew gia kati ka8armata san to Pi-pi-Latrino, "mila me
kwloys
> na akoyseis pordes"...
And gogu should be an expert about what asses "say" or smell like.
> Xeston ton blaka, den aksizei oyte to salio na ton briseis ton tri-malaka
> :-)
Get lost you Roumanian troll. And save your saliva for ass lubrication, you
anal-retentive anonymous cunt. :)
Manos
> "Manos" <Parmen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:462ff918.04060...@posting.google.com...
> > > Trolling?
> > > Go back and answer the points made, and refrain from flooding the
> newsgroup
> > > with the same message.
>
> Well, will you answer those points, or cower away?
>
> > > I'm sorry, I guess I'm not accustomed to your democratic debate tactics.
> The
> > > previous sentence is in sarcasm in case it escapes you.
>
> And again, instead of sticking to the subject (the former Royals or the
> subsequent thread you initiated regarding their positions on Orthodoxy)...
> you instead start YET ANOTHER topic about the "civil war" during the Nazi
> occupation of Hellas.
>
> > BTW, your hero Papadopoulos was involved in hunting down GREEK
> > RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WHO WERE STRUGGLING TO RID THE NATION OF NAZI
> > OCCUPATION. Now there is a good Hellene for you!.
>
> Get a clue, and start reading non-biased sources!
LOL!, you mean refer you to Nazi supporting pro-Papadopoulos sources.
Another Hellenic hero
> (recognized and decorated by the Hellenic state) was Grivas - and guess what
> he was also doing during the occupation? He and his organization (X) were
> recognized by Royal decree for their anti-communist actions. It was EAM/ELAS
> that was targeting all other Hellenic resistance forces (for instance,
> wiping out Psaras' forces), and allying themselves with foreigners seeking
> to partition Macedonia.
>
> It is quite PATHETIC for this "democracy" to be so vehemently "anti-right"
> that they are attacking the forces and people who kept Hellas united and
> outside the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you would have been happy if EAM/ELAS had
> succeeded unopposed?
>
> > ( That last sentence was sarcasm in case you didn't catch on)
>
> The sarcasm is you calling communists seeking an independent Macedonia
> (while killing other Hellenes) "resitance fighters"! Learn history and then
> concern yourself with the concept of sarcasm.
Your hero was involved with the fucking NAZI'S against other
Greeks and you support that. Some hero you got there.
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue43/articles/1947_1970s_greece.htm
>
> > George Papadopoulos
> > 1919-1999
>
> The source for this? I'm sorry, I guess we're having a kafenio debate. No
> need for sources or facts.
I already posted the link in the previous post. Your anger at
anyone who does not support a NAZI collaborating fuck like
papadopoulos must have distracted you to the point of not seeing it.
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue43/articles/1947_1970s_greece.htm
Here is another:
The catchword amongst old hands at the US military mission in Greece
was that Papadopoulos was "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a
European country". "Many Greeks consider this to be the simple truth,"
reported Charles Foley in 'The Observer' of London. [21]
At the time of the coup, Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll for
some 15 years. [22] One reason for the success of their marriage may
have been Colonel Papadopoulos's World War II record. ----->When the
Germans invaded Greece, Papadopoulos served as a captain in the Nazi's
Security Battalions whose main task was to track down Greek resistance
fighters<-------. [23] He was, it is said, a great believer in
Hitler's "new order", and his later record in power did little to cast
doubt upon that claim. Foley writes that when he mentioned the junta
leader's pro-German background to an American military adviser he met
at a party in Athens, the American hinted that it was related to
Papadopoulos's subservience to US wishes: "George gives good value,"
he smiled, "because there are documents in Washington he wouldn't like
let out." [24]
LOL!, so you see your hero was a fucking NAZI supporter. Hate to
burst your bubble.
Foley relates that under Papadopoulos:
intense official propaganda portrayed Communism as the only enemy
Greece had ever had and minimized the German occupation until even
Nazi atrocities were seen as provoked by the Communists. This
rewriting of history clearly reflects the dictator's concern at the
danger that the gap in his official biography may some day be filled
in. [25]
As part of the rewriting, members of the Security Battalions became
"heroes of the resistance". [26]
While you're at it you can go to that SAME LINK ( since you have
difficulty keeping track of these things) to see the reports on the
torture that your hero dished out upon the Greek citizens
--------------->
It was torture, however, which most indelibly marked the seven-year
Greek nightmare. James Becket, an American attorney sent to Greece by
Amnesty International, wrote in December 1969 that a "conservative
estimate would place at not less than two thousand" the number of
people tortured. [27] It was an odious task for Beckett to talk to
some of the victims:
People had been mercilessly tortured simply for being in possession of
a leaflet criticizing the regime. Brutality and cruelty on one side,
frustration and helplessness on the other. They were being tortured
and there was nothing to be done. It was like listening to a friend
who has cancer. What comfort, what wise reflection can someone who is
comfortable give? Torture might last a short time, but the person will
never be the same. [28].
Becket reported that some torturers had told prisoners that some of
their equipment had come as US military aid: a special "thick white
double cable" whip was one item; another was the headscrew, known as
an "iron wreath", which was progressively tightened around the head or
ears. [29]
The Amnesty delegation desribed a number of the other torture methods
commonly employed. Among these were:
a) Beating the soles of the feet with a stick or pipe. After four
months of this, the soles of one prisoner were covered with thick scar
tissue. Another was crippled by broken bones.
b) Numerous incidents of sexually-oriented torture: shoving fingers or
an object into the vagina and twisting and tearing and brutally; also
done with the anus; or a tube is inserted into the anus and water
driven in under very high pressure.
c) Techniques of gagging: the throat is grasped in such a way that the
windpipe is cut off, or a filthy rag, often soaked in urine, and
sometimes excrement, is shoved down the throat.
d) Tearing out the hair from the head and the pubic region.
e) Jumping on the stomach.
f) Pulling out toe nails and finger nails. [30]
These were not the worst. The worst is what one reads in the many
individual testimonies. But these are simply too lengthy to be
repeated here. [31]
The junta's response to the first Amnesty report was to declare that
it was comprised of charges emanating from "International Communism"
and to hire public relations firms in New York and London to improve
its image. [32]
In 1969, the European Commission of Human Rights found Greece guilty
of torture, murder and other violations. For these reasons and
particularly for the junta's abolition of parliamentary democracy, The
Council of Europe -- a consultative body of, at that time, 18 European
States, under which the Commission falls -- was preparing to expel
Greece. The council rejected categorically Greece's claim that it had
been in danger of a communist takeover. Amnesty International later
reported that the United States, though not a member of the Council,
actively applied diplomatic pressure on member states not to vote for
the expulsion. (Nonetheless, while the Council was deliberating, the
'New York Times' reported that "The State Department said today that
the United States had deliberately avoided taking any position on the
question of continued Greek membership in the Council of Europe.") The
European members, said Amnesty, believed that only the United Sates
had the power to bring about changes in Greece, yet it chose only to
defend the junta. [33]
On the specific issue of torture, Amnesty's report concluded that:
American policy on the torture question as expressed in the official
testimony has been to deny it where possible and minize it where
denial was not possible. This policy flowed naturally from general
support for the military regime. [34]
As matters transpired, Greece walked out before the Council could
formalize the expulsion.
In a world grown increasingly hostile, the support of the world's most
powerful nation was 'sine qua non' for the Greek junta. The two
governments thrived upon each other. Said the American ambassador to
Greece, Henry Tasca, "This is the most anti-communist group you'll
find anywhere. There is just no place like Greece to offer these
facilities with the back up of the kind of Government you have got
here." ("You", not "we", noted the reporter, was the only pretense.)
[35]
The facilities the ambassador was referring to were dozens of US
military installations, from nuclear missile bases to major
communication sites, housing tens of thousands of American servicemen.
The United States, in turn, provided the junta with ample military
hardware despite an official congressional embargo, as well as the
police equipment required by the Greek authorities to maintain their
rigid control.
In an attempt to formally end the embargo, the Nixon administration
asked Papadopoulos to make some gesture towards constitutional
government which the White House could then point to. The Greek prime
minister was to be assured, said a secret White House document, that
the administration would take "at face value and accept without
reservation" any such gesture. [36]
>
> [snip]
> > Engineered the "Colonel's Coup" and seized power from the
> > democratically-elected prime minister, George Papandreou (1967)
>
> Papandreou was the "democratically-elected prime minister" in 1967? Says a
> whole lot about the accuracy of your sources! Like I stated, read up and
> then talk!
>
> > CIA-Backed Coup, 1967
> >
> > The next elections were scheduled for April 1967, but just two days
> > before, George Papadopoulos seized power in a military coup.
>
> Where do you get your sources?! Do you want to stick to the claim that the
> elections were scheduled for April 23 1967? Are you serious? Is the above
> from the same source that states that Papandreou was the PM in 1967?
>
> > Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll since 1952.
>
> And your evidence of this is???
The catchword amongst old hands at the US military mission in Greece
was that Papadopoulos was "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a
European country". "Many Greeks consider this to be the simple truth,"
reported Charles Foley in 'The Observer' of London. [21]
At the time of the coup, Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll for
some 15 years. [22] One reason for the success of their marriage may
have been Colonel Papadopoulos's World War II record. When the Germans
invaded Greece, Papadopoulos served as a captain in the Nazi's
Security Battalions whose main task was to track down Greek resistance
fighters. [23] He was, it is said, a great believer in Hitler's "new
order", and his later record in power did little to cast doubt upon
that claim. Foley writes that when he mentioned the junta leader's
pro-German background to an American military adviser he met at a
party in Athens, the American hinted that it was related to
Papadopoulos's subservience to US wishes: "George gives good value,"
he smiled, "because there are documents in Washington he wouldn't like
let out." [24]
Foley relates that under Papadopoulos:
intense official propaganda portrayed Communism as the only enemy
Greece had ever had and minimized the German occupation until even
Nazi atrocities were seen as provoked by the Communists. This
rewriting of history clearly reflects the dictator's concern at the
danger that the gap in his official biography may some day be filled
in. [25]
As part of the rewriting, members of the Security Battalions became
"heroes of the resistance". [26]
It was torture, however, which most indelibly marked the seven-year
Greek nightmare. James Becket, an American attorney sent to Greece by
Amnesty International, wrote in December 1969 that a "conservative
estimate would place at not less than two thousand" the number of
people tortured. [27] It was an odious task for Beckett to talk to
some of the victims:
People had been mercilessly tortured simply for being in possession of
a leaflet criticizing the regime. Brutality and cruelty on one side,
frustration and helplessness on the other. They were being tortured
and there was nothing to be done. It was like listening to a friend
who has cancer. What comfort, what wise reflection can someone who is
comfortable give? Torture might last a short time, but the person will
never be the same. [28].
Becket reported that some torturers had told prisoners that some of
their equipment had come as US military aid: a special "thick white
double cable" whip was one item; another was the headscrew, known as
an "iron wreath", which was progressively tightened around the head or
ears. [29]
The Amnesty delegation desribed a number of the other torture methods
commonly employed. Among these were:
a) Beating the soles of the feet with a stick or pipe. After four
months of this, the soles of one prisoner were covered with thick scar
tissue. Another was crippled by broken bones.
b) Numerous incidents of sexually-oriented torture: shoving fingers or
an object into the vagina and twisting and tearing and brutally; also
done with the anus; or a tube is inserted into the anus and water
driven in under very high pressure.
c) Techniques of gagging: the throat is grasped in such a way that the
windpipe is cut off, or a filthy rag, often soaked in urine, and
sometimes excrement, is shoved down the throat.
d) Tearing out the hair from the head and the pubic region.
e) Jumping on the stomach.
f) Pulling out toe nails and finger nails. [30]
These were not the worst. The worst is what one reads in the many
individual testimonies. But these are simply too lengthy to be
repeated here. [31]
The junta's response to the first Amnesty report was to declare that
it was comprised of charges emanating from "International Communism"
and to hire public relations firms in New York and London to improve
its image. [32]
In 1969, the European Commission of Human Rights found Greece guilty
of torture, murder and other violations. For these reasons and
particularly for the junta's abolition of parliamentary democracy, The
Council of Europe -- a consultative body of, at that time, 18 European
States, under which the Commission falls -- was preparing to expel
Greece. The council rejected categorically Greece's claim that it had
been in danger of a communist takeover. Amnesty International later
reported that the United States, though not a member of the Council,
actively applied diplomatic pressure on member states not to vote for
the expulsion. (Nonetheless, while the Council was deliberating, the
'New York Times' reported that "The State Department said today that
the United States had deliberately avoided taking any position on the
question of continued Greek membership in the Council of Europe.") The
European members, said Amnesty, believed that only the United Sates
had the power to bring about changes in Greece, yet it chose only to
defend the junta. [33]
On the specific issue of torture, Amnesty's report concluded that:
American policy on the torture question as expressed in the official
testimony has been to deny it where possible and minize it where
denial was not possible. This policy flowed naturally from general
support for the military regime. [34]
As matters transpired, Greece walked out before the Council could
formalize the expulsion.
In a world grown increasingly hostile, the support of the world's most
powerful nation was 'sine qua non' for the Greek junta. The two
governments thrived upon each other. Said the American ambassador to
Greece, Henry Tasca, "This is the most anti-communist group you'll
find anywhere. There is just no place like Greece to offer these
facilities with the back up of the kind of Government you have got
here." ("You", not "we", noted the reporter, was the only pretense.)
[35]
The facilities the ambassador was referring to were dozens of US
military installations, from nuclear missile bases to major
communication sites, housing tens of thousands of American servicemen.
The United States, in turn, provided the junta with ample military
hardware despite an official congressional embargo, as well as the
police equipment required by the Greek authorities to maintain their
rigid control.
In an attempt to formally end the embargo, the Nixon administration
asked Papadopoulos to make some gesture towards constitutional
government which the White House could then point to. The Greek prime
minister was to be assured, said a secret White House document, that
the administration would take "at face value and accept without
reservation" any such gesture. [36]
Mind you, in the USA they have the "Freedom
> of Information Act". Go inquire about it, and then ask the CIA if your
> statement is valid (by law they have to release - AGAIN - that information).
>
> > He was trained
> > in the U.S. by the OSS and CIA.
>
> He was the head of KYP (the Hellenic CIA). I would hope so!
>
> [snip]
> > Vice President Spiro Agnew, who was of
> > Greek descent, angered many Greeks when he visited in 1971, embraced
> > the junta leaders and called them the country's best leaders since
> > Pericles ruled ancient Athens.
>
> And they were on every account.
>
> [snip]
> > The U.S. government never admitted its support for the Greek
> > military junta until November 1999.
>
> More nonsense! If you're talking about Clinton's statement, do a search on
> google groups for the ridicule your buddy gogu got for LYING (yet again)
> about what Clinton said.
What did he lie about?, make yourself more clear.
>
> The US government had an arms embargo in place from 1967 till late 1971. The
> US Congress held numerous sessions of committees looking into claims of
> "human rights abuses".
Which were of course justified:
( again, same link as above)
It was torture, however, which most indelibly marked the seven-year
Greek nightmare. James Becket, an American attorney sent to Greece by
Amnesty International, wrote in December 1969 that a "conservative
estimate would place at not less than two thousand" the number of
people tortured. [27] It was an odious task for Beckett to talk to
some of the victims:
People had been mercilessly tortured simply for being in possession of
a leaflet criticizing the regime. Brutality and cruelty on one side,
frustration and helplessness on the other. They were being tortured
and there was nothing to be done. It was like listening to a friend
who has cancer. What comfort, what wise reflection can someone who is
comfortable give? Torture might last a short time, but the person will
never be the same. [28].
Becket reported that some torturers had told prisoners that some of
their equipment had come as US military aid: a special "thick white
double cable" whip was one item; another was the headscrew, known as
an "iron wreath", which was progressively tightened around the head or
ears. [29]
The Amnesty delegation desribed a number of the other torture methods
commonly employed. Among these were:
a) Beating the soles of the feet with a stick or pipe. After four
months of this, the soles of one prisoner were covered with thick scar
tissue. Another was crippled by broken bones.
b) Numerous incidents of sexually-oriented torture: shoving fingers or
an object into the vagina and twisting and tearing and brutally; also
done with the anus; or a tube is inserted into the anus and water
driven in under very high pressure.
c) Techniques of gagging: the throat is grasped in such a way that the
windpipe is cut off, or a filthy rag, often soaked in urine, and
sometimes excrement, is shoved down the throat.
d) Tearing out the hair from the head and the pubic region.
e) Jumping on the stomach.
f) Pulling out toe nails and finger nails. [30]
These were not the worst. The worst is what one reads in the many
individual testimonies. But these are simply too lengthy to be
repeated here. [31]
The junta's response to the first Amnesty report was to declare that
it was comprised of charges emanating from "International Communism"
and to hire public relations firms in New York ( is Pilarinos part of
an ongoing P/R attempt to support Papadopoulos' actions?) and London
to improve its image. [32]
In 1969, the European Commission of Human Rights found Greece guilty
of torture, murder and other violations. For these reasons and
particularly for the junta's abolition of parliamentary democracy, The
Council of Europe -- a consultative body of, at that time, 18 European
States, under which the Commission falls -- was preparing to expel
Greece. The council rejected categorically Greece's claim that it had
been in danger of a communist takeover. Amnesty International later
reported that the United States, though not a member of the Council,
actively applied diplomatic pressure on member states not to vote for
the expulsion. (Nonetheless, while the Council was deliberating, the
'New York Times' reported that "The State Department said today that
the United States had deliberately avoided taking any position on the
question of continued Greek membership in the Council of Europe.") The
European members, said Amnesty, believed that only the United Sates
had the power to bring about changes in Greece, yet it chose only to
defend the junta. [33]
On the specific issue of torture, Amnesty's report concluded that:
American policy on the torture question as expressed in the official
testimony has been to deny it where possible and minize it where
denial was not possible. This policy flowed naturally from general
support for the military regime. [34]
As matters transpired, Greece walked out before the Council could
formalize the expulsion.
In a world grown increasingly hostile, the support of the world's most
powerful nation was 'sine qua non' for the Greek junta. The two
governments thrived upon each other. Said the American ambassador to
Greece, Henry Tasca, "This is the most anti-communist group you'll
find anywhere. There is just no place like Greece to offer these
facilities with the back up of the kind of Government you have got
here." ("You", not "we", noted the reporter, was the only pretense.)
[35]
The facilities the ambassador was referring to were dozens of US
military installations, from nuclear missile bases to major
communication sites, housing tens of thousands of American servicemen.
The United States, in turn, provided the junta with ample military
hardware despite an official congressional embargo, as well as the
police equipment required by the Greek authorities to maintain their
rigid control.
In an attempt to formally end the embargo, the Nixon administration
asked Papadopoulos to make some gesture towards constitutional
government which the White House could then point to. The Greek prime
minister was to be assured, said a secret White House document, that
the administration would take "at face value and accept without
reservation" any such gesture. [36]
At the same time, we were receiving new and used
> military hardware from France and Germany. The "fascist junta" was also
> recognized by all communist states, and relations were at their best with
> the USSR and China.
>
> For being a CIA/US Government coup, they sure didn't know much when it took
> place, nor did they seem to eager to support it! But a kafenio discussion
> would not be complete without blaming the CIA and USA, or even those damn
> MIB (Men in Black)!
>
> Just so I know, do you think you will ever stick to a topic? I'd like to
> know how many issues you'll run away from.
Previously , I was curious to know how much this terribly negative
information on your hero George Papadopoulos (aka NAZI supporter and
torture master supreme) would irritate you. I now have my answer LOL!.
Reality for you, is a bitch. But keep supporting torturing scumbags
like papadopoulos and see where that gets you.
Manos
The governmnet, about which the good General was so ebulient, was that
of the Colonels' junta which came to power in a military coup in April
1967, followed immediately by the traditional martial law, censorship,
arrests, beatings, torture, and killings, the victims totaling some
8,000 in the first month. This was accompanied by the equally
traditional declaration that this was all being done to save a nation
from a "communist takeover". Corrupting and subversive influences in
Greek life were to be removed. Among these were the miniskirts, long
hair, and foreign newspapers; church attendance for the young would be
compulsory. [2]
So brutal and so swift was the repression, that by September, Denmark,
Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands were before the European Comission
of Human Rights to accuse Greece of violating most of the Commission's
conventions. Before the year was over, Amnesty International had sent
representatives to Greece to investigate the situation. From this came
a report which asserted that "Torture as a deliberate practice is
carried out by the Security Police and the Military Police." [3]
http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Takism5.htm
The coup had taken place two days before the campaign for national
elections was to begin, elections which appeared certain to bring the
veteran liberal leader George Papandreou back as prime minister.
Papandreou had been elected in February 1964 with the only outright
majority in the history of modern Greek elections. The successful
machinations to unseat him had begun immediately, a joint effort of
the Royal Court, the Greek military, and the American military and CIA
stationed in Greece.
Philip Deane (the pen name of Gerasimos Gigantes) is a Greek, a former
UN official, who worked during this period both for King Constantine
and as an envoy to Washington for the Papandreou government. He has
written an intimate account of the subleties and the grossness of this
conspiracy to undermine the government and enhance the position of the
military plotters, and of the raw power exercised by the CIA in his
country [4]. We saw earlier how Greece was looked upon much as a piece
of property to be developed according to Washington's needs. A story
related by Deane illustrates how this attitude was little changed, and
thus the precariousness of Papandreou's position: During one of the
perennial disputes between Greece and Turkey over Cyprus, which was
now spilling over onto NATO, President Johnson summoned the Greek
ambassador to tell him of Washington's "solution". The ambassador
protested that it would be unacceptable to the Greek parliament and
contrary to the Greek constitution.
"Then listen to me, Mr. Ambassador," said the President of the United
States, "fuck your Parliament and your Constitution. America, is an
elephant. Cyprus is a flea. If these two fleas continue itching the
elephant, they may just get whacked by the elephant's trunk, whacked
good . . . We pay a lot of good American dollars to the Greeks, Mr.
Ambassador. If your Prime Minister gives me talk about Democracy,
Parliament and Constitutions, he, his Parliament and his Constitution
may not last very long." [5]
In July 1965, George Papandreou was finally maneuvered out of office
by royal prerogative. The king had a coalition of breakaway Centre
Union Deputies (Papandreou's party) and rightists waiting in the wings
to form a new government. It was later revealed by a State Department
official that the CIA Chief-of-Station in Athens, John Maury, had
"worked in behalf of the palace in 1965. He helped King Constantine
buy Centre Union Deputies so that the George Papandreou Government was
toppled." [6]
For nearly two years thereafter, various short-lived cabinets ruled
until it was no longer possible to avoid holding the elections
prescribed by the constitution.
What concerned the opponents of George Papandreou most about him was
his son. Andreas Papandreou, who had been head of the economics
department at the University of California at Berkeley and a minister
in his father's cabinet, was destined for a leading role in the new
government. But he was by no means the wide-eyed radical. In the
United States, Andreas had been an active supporter of such
quintessential moderate liberals as Adlai Stevenson and Hubert
Humphrey. [7] His economic views, wrote 'Washington Post' columnist
Marquis Childs, were "those of the American New Deal". [8]
But Andreas Papandreou did not disguise his wish to take Greece out of
the cold war. He publicly questioned the wisdom of the country
remaining in NATO, or at least ramaining in it as a satellite of the
United States. He leaned toward opening relations with the Soviet
Union and other Communist countries on Greece's border. He argued that
the swollen American military and intelligence teams in Greece
compromised the nation's freedom of action. And he viewed the Greek
Army as a threat to democracy, wishing to purge it of its most
dictatorial-and royalist-minded senior officers. [9]
Andreas Papandreou's bark was worse than his bite, as his later
presidency was to simply demonstrate. (He did not, for example, pull
Greece out of NATO or US bases out of Greece.) But in Lyndon johnson's
Washingon, if you were not totally and unquestionably with us, you
were agin' us. Johnson felt hat Andreas, who had become a naturalized
US citizen, had betrayed America". Said LBJ:
We gave the son of a bitch American citizenship, didn't we? He was an
American, with all the rights and privileges. And he had sworn
allegiance to the flag. And then he gave up his American citizenship.
He went back to just being a Greek. You can't trust a man who breaks
his oath of allegiance to the flag of the United States. [10]
What, then, are we to make of the fact that Andreas Papandreou was
later reported to have worked with the CIA in the early 1960s? (He
criticized publication of the report, but did not deny the charge.)
[11] If true, it would not have been incompatible with being a
liberal, particularly at that time. It was incompatible, as he
susequently learned, only with his commitment to a Greece independent
from US foreign policy.
As for the elder Papandreou, his anti-communist credentials were
impeccable, dating back to his role as a Brtitsh-installed
prime-minister during the civil war against the left in 1944-45. But
he, too, showed stirrings of independence from the Western superpower.
He refused to buckle under Johnson's pressure to compromise with
Turkey over Cyprus. He accepted an invitation to visit Moscow, and
when his government said it would accept Soviet aid in preparation for
a possible war with Turkey, the US Embassy 'demanded' an explanation.
Moreover, in an attempt to heal the old wounds of the civil war,
Papandreoubegan to reintroduce certain civil liberties and to readmit
into Greece some of those who had fought against the government in the
civil war peroid. [12]
When Andreas Papandreou assumed his ministerial duties in 1964 he was
shocked to discover what was becoming a fact of life for every
techno-industrial state in the world: an intelligence service gone
wild, a shadow government with powers beyond the control of the
nation's nominal leaders. This, thought Papandreou, accounted for many
of the obstacles the government was encountering in trying to carry
out its policies. [13]
The Greek intelligence service, KYP, as we have seen, was created by
the OSS/CIA in the course of the civil war, with hundreds of its
officers receiving training in the United States. One of these men,
George Papadopoulos, was the leader of the junta that seized power in
1967. Andreas Papandreou found that the KYP routinely bugged
ministerial converstaions and turned the data over to the CIA. (Many
Western intelligence agencies have long provided the CIA with
information about their own government and citizens, and the CIA has
reciprocated on occasion. The nature of much of this information has
been such that if a private citizen were to pass it to a foreign power
he could be charged with treason.)
As a result of his discovery, the younger Papandreou dismissed the two
top KYP men and replaced them with reliable officers. The new director
was ordered to protect the cabinet from surveillance. "He came back
apologetically," recalls Papandreou, "to say he couldn't do it. All
the equipment was American, controlled by the CIA or Greeks under CIA
supervision. There was no kind of distinction between the two
services. They duplicated functions in a counterpart relationship. In
effect, they were a single agency." [14]
Andreas Papandreou's order to abolish the bugging of the cabinet
inspired the Deputy Chief of Mission of the US Embassy, Norbert
Anshutz (or Anschuetz), to visit him.
Anshutz, who has been linked to the CIA, demanded that Papandreou
rescind the order. Andreas demanded that the American leave his
office, which he did, but not before warning that "there would be
consequences". [15]
Papandreou then requested that a thorough search be made of his home
and office for electronic devices by the new KYP deputy director. "It
wasn't until much later," says Andreas, "that we discovered he'd
simply planted a lot of new bugs. Lo and behold, we'd brought in
another American-paid operative as our No. 2." [16]
An endeavor by Andreas to end the practice of KYP's funds coming
directly from the CIA without passing through any Greek ministry also
met with failure, but he did succeed in transferring the man who had
been liaison between the two agencies for sevearl years. This was
George Papadopoulos. The change in his position, however, appears to
have amounted to little more than a formality, for the organization
still took orders from him; even afterwards, Greek "opposition
politicians who sought the ear (or the purse) of James Potts, CIA
[deputy] chief in Athens before the coup, were often told: 'See George
-- he's my boy'."
In mid-February 1967, a meeting took place in the White House,
reported Marquis Childs to discuss CIA reports which "left no doubt
that a military coup was in the making ... It could hardly have been
secret. Since 1947 the Greek army and the American military aid group
in Athens, numbering several hundred, have worked as part of the same
team ... The solemn question was whether by some subtle political
intervention the coup could be prevented" and thus preserve
parliamentary government. It was decided that no course of action was
feasible. As one of the senior civilians present recalls it, Walt
Rostow, the President's adviser on national security affairs, closed
the meeting with these words: I hope you understand, gentlemen, that
what we have concluded here, or rather have failed to conclude, makes
the future course of events in Greece inevitable. [18]
A CIA report dated 23 January 1967 had specifically named the
Papadopoulos group as one plotting the coup, and was apparently one of
the reports discussed at the February meeting. [19]
Of the cabal of five officers which took power in April four,
reportedly, were intimately connected to the American military or to
the CIA in Greece. The fifth man had been brought in becasue of the
armored units he commanded. [20] George Papadopoulos emerged as the
'de facto' leader, taking the title of prime minister later in the
year.
US Vice-president Spiro Agnew, on a visit to the land of his
ancestors, was moved to exalt the "achievements" of the Greek
government and its "constant co-operation with US needs and wishes".
[37] One of the satisfied needs Agnew may have had in mind was the
contribution of $549,000 made by the junta to the 1968 Nixon-Agnew
election campaign. Apart from any other consideration, it was
suspected that this was money given to the junta by the CIA finding
its way back to Washington. A Senate investigation of this question
was abruptly canceled at the direct request of Henry Kissinger. [38]
Perhaps nothing better captures the mystique of the bond felt by the
Greeks to their American guardians than the story related about the
Chief Inspector Basil Lambrou, one of Athens' well-known torturers:
Hundreds of prisoners have listened to the little speech given by
Inspector Basil Lambrou, who sits behind his desk which displays the
red, white, and blue clasped-hand symbol of American aid. He tries to
show the prisoner the absolute fultility of resistance: "You make
yourself ridiculous by thinking you can do anything. The world is
divided in two. There are the communists on that side and on this side
the free world. The Russians and the Americans, no one else. What are
we? Americans. Behind me there is the government, behind the
government is NATO, behind NATO is the U.S. You can't fight us, we are
Americans." [39]
Amnesty International adds that some torturers would tell their
victims things like: "The Human Rights Commission can't help you now
... The Red Cross can do nothing for you ... Tell them all, it will do
no good, you are helpless." "The torturers from the start," said
Amnesty, "had said that the United States supported them and that was
what counted." [40]
In November 1973, a falling-out within the Greek inner circle
culminated in the ousting of Papadopoulos and his replacement by Col.
Demetrios Ioannidis, Commander of the Military Police, torturer,
graduate of american training in anti-subversive techniques, confidant
of the CIA. [41] Ioannidis named as prime-minister a Greek-American,
A. Androutsopoulos, who came to Greece after the Second World War as
an official employee of the CIA, a fact of which Androutsopoulos had
often boasted. [42]
Eight months later, the Ioannidis regime overthrew the government. It
was a fatal miscalculation. Turkey invaded Cyprus and the
reverberations in Athens resulted in the military giving way to a
civilian government. The Greek nightmare had come to an end.
Much of the story of American complicity in the 1967 coup and its
aftermath may never be known. At the trials held in 1975 of junta
members and torturers, many witnesses made reference to the American
role. This may have been the reason a separate investigation of this
aspect was scheduled to be undertaken by the Greek Court of Appeals.
[43] But it appears that no information resulting from this inquiry,
if it actually took place, was ever announced. Philip Deane, upon
returning to Greece several months after the civilian government took
over, was told by leading politicians that "for the sake of preserving
good relations with the US, the evidence of US complicity will not be
made fully public". [44]
Andreas Papndreou had been arrested at the time of the coup and held
in prison for eight months. Shortly after his release, he and his wife
Margaret visited the American ambassador, Phillips Talbot, in Athens.
Papandreou related the following:
I asked Talbot whether America could have intervened the night of the
coup, to prevent the death of democracy in Greece. He denied that they
could have done anything about it. Then Margaret asked a critical
question: What if the coup had been a Communist or a Leftist coup?
Talbot answered without hesitation. Then, of course, they would have
intervened, and they would have crushed the coup. [45]
by William Blum
(Common Courage Press ISBN: 1567510523
Dionysios Pilarinos
Another fine example of how well you "democrats" can handle a debate using
facts:
> > And again, instead of sticking to the subject (the former Royals or the
> > subsequent thread you initiated regarding their positions on
Orthodoxy)...
> > you instead start YET ANOTHER topic about the "civil war" during the
Nazi
> > occupation of Hellas.
No comment? Or does the truth hurt?
> > > BTW, your hero Papadopoulos was involved in hunting down GREEK
> > > RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WHO WERE STRUGGLING TO RID THE NATION OF NAZI
> > > OCCUPATION. Now there is a good Hellene for you!.
> >
> > Get a clue, and start reading non-biased sources!
>
> LOL!, you mean refer you to Nazi supporting pro-Papadopoulos sources.
Any independent non-communist source will support the below statement (which
you ignored and did not comment on):
> Another Hellenic hero
> > (recognized and decorated by the Hellenic state) was Grivas - and guess
what
> > he was also doing during the occupation? He and his organization (X)
were
> > recognized by Royal decree for their anti-communist actions. It was
EAM/ELAS
> > that was targeting all other Hellenic resistance forces (for instance,
> > wiping out Psaras' forces), and allying themselves with foreigners
seeking
> > to partition Macedonia.
No comment, right?
> > It is quite PATHETIC for this "democracy" to be so vehemently
"anti-right"
> > that they are attacking the forces and people who kept Hellas united and
> > outside the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you would have been happy if EAM/ELAS
had
> > succeeded unopposed?
No comment?
> > The sarcasm is you calling communists seeking an independent Macedonia
> > (while killing other Hellenes) "resitance fighters"! Learn history and
then
> > concern yourself with the concept of sarcasm.
>
> Your hero was involved with the fucking NAZI'S against other
> Greeks and you support that. Some hero you got there.
Says your "source" (who is this Jim Huck) that also claims that Papandreou
was the PM in 1967! And again, try sticking to what I stated and don't
divert the conversation to another topic. Above I spoke about the actions of
the communists... you somehow cannot defend your position and start talking
(lies) about Papadopoulos!
[snip]
> > > George Papadopoulos
> > > 1919-1999
> >
> > The source for this? I'm sorry, I guess we're having a kafenio debate.
No
> > need for sources or facts.
>
> I already posted the link in the previous post.
Yes... a web page by some "Jim Huck" which has numerous historical
inaccuracies (which you ignore even when I point them out to you).
> Your anger at
> anyone who does not support a NAZI collaborating fuck like
> papadopoulos must have distracted you to the point of not seeing it.
[snip trolling repeats and cut-and-paste]
I'll concede your point when you provide verifiable information, not some
pathetic web site that collects "fascist" CIA conspiracy theories.
> While you're at it you can go to that SAME LINK
[snip]
You should broaden your sources a bit.
> > > Engineered the "Colonel's Coup" and seized power from the
> > > democratically-elected prime minister, George Papandreou (1967)
> >
> > Papandreou was the "democratically-elected prime minister" in 1967? Says
a
> > whole lot about the accuracy of your sources! Like I stated, read up and
> > then talk!
No comment? The source you are using is making such blatant errors, and yet
you would consider them an accurate source for anything relating to the
period?
> > > CIA-Backed Coup, 1967
> > >
> > > The next elections were scheduled for April 1967, but just two days
> > > before, George Papadopoulos seized power in a military coup.
> >
> > Where do you get your sources?! Do you want to stick to the claim that
the
> > elections were scheduled for April 23 1967? Are you serious? Is the
above
> > from the same source that states that Papandreou was the PM in 1967?
No comment? The source you are using is making such blatant errors, and yet
you would consider them an accurate source for anything relating to the
period?
> > > Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll since 1952.
> >
> > And your evidence of this is???
>
> The catchword amongst old hands at the US military mission in Greece
> was that Papadopoulos was "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a
> European country". "Many Greeks consider this to be the simple truth,"
> reported Charles Foley in 'The Observer' of London. [21]
[snip trolling repetition and cut-and-paste]
So all you have is hearsay, and "word on the street"! You could of course do
what an intelligent person would do, which is what I outlined below:
> > Mind you, in the USA they have the "Freedom
> > of Information Act". Go inquire about it, and then ask the CIA if your
> > statement is valid (by law they have to release - AGAIN - that
information).
No comment? Why not gain access to the actual documents of the CIA (now
declassified) instead of posting your kafenio propaganda?
> > > He was trained
> > > in the U.S. by the OSS and CIA.
> >
> > He was the head of KYP (the Hellenic CIA). I would hope so!
No comment about the obvious?!
> > [snip]
> > > Vice President Spiro Agnew, who was of
> > > Greek descent, angered many Greeks when he visited in 1971, embraced
> > > the junta leaders and called them the country's best leaders since
> > > Pericles ruled ancient Athens.
> >
> > And they were on every account.
> >
> > [snip]
> > > The U.S. government never admitted its support for the Greek
> > > military junta until November 1999.
> >
> > More nonsense! If you're talking about Clinton's statement, do a search
on
> > google groups for the ridicule your buddy gogu got for LYING (yet again)
> > about what Clinton said.
>
> What did he lie about?, make yourself more clear.
Search the archives. Or better yet, prove your allegation about the US
admitting anything in "November 1999"! I'm sure you were referring to
Clinton's (Nov. 20 1999) statement which was :
"When the junta took over in 1967 here, the United States allowed its
interests in prosecuting the cold war to prevail over its obligation to
support democracy. It's important that we acknowledge that."
Nothing about staging or supporting the 21 April 1967 Revolution. He was
clearly talking about the recognition and "normalization" of relations
(especially after 1971) with that government (instead of opposing it and
"supporting democracy"). No new "revelations" were made by Clinton, contrary
to what some of you communist-sympathizers wish.
> > The US government had an arms embargo in place from 1967 till late 1971.
The
> > US Congress held numerous sessions of committees looking into claims of
> > "human rights abuses".
>
> Which were of course justified:
[snip same pathetic unsupported inaccurate propaganda]
So you couldn't accept the fact that the US-Hellenic relations in fact
deteriorated after 1967, so you post another few pages of the same crap
(which you repeated at least 3 times in the same message).
> > At the same time, we were receiving new and used
> > military hardware from France and Germany. The "fascist junta" was also
> > recognized by all communist states, and relations were at their best
with
> > the USSR and China.
No comment? No surprise.
> > For being a CIA/US Government coup, they sure didn't know much when it
took
> > place, nor did they seem to eager to support it! But a kafenio
discussion
> > would not be complete without blaming the CIA and USA, or even those
damn
> > MIB (Men in Black)!
No comment? The facts (non-support by the USA) seems to contradict your
theory about the US/CIA involvement doesn't it? You could also read
declassified US State Department documents (Foreign Relations of the United
States: 1964-1968, Volume XVI) which clearly indicate that the US government
was clueless about the Revolution. Here is a link in case you want to
actually learn something instead of cheap propaganda:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xvi/
> > Just so I know, do you think you will ever stick to a topic? I'd like to
> > know how many issues you'll run away from.
>
> Previously , I was curious to know how much this terribly negative
> information on your hero George Papadopoulos
[snip]
It is as much "information" as are the screaming rants of gogu. When you
learn to use reliable sources, then come talk to me about information. The
fact that you repeat weak and unsupported propaganda (thinking that I have
not read it or that it with "annoy" me) indicates that you are unread on the
topic.
Let's see how you run away from all of the above points, pick a new topic,
and flood this thread with pages of the same unsupported and erroneous
propaganda (which even after I point out historical errors, you keep on
using)!
Dionysios Pilarinos
news:40c4c8b9$0$6339$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
> > > En pash periptosh ayto pou les proypothetei oti
> > > yphrxe politistikh syrriknwsh thn opoia anastrepse h Xounta. Omws
> > > aytou pou polles palies karabanes den katalabenoun einai oti oi
> > > allages pou symbenoun se mia koinwnia den einai apla monodiastata
> > > fainomena kai sxedon panta epiferoun problhmata mazi me ta thetika
> > > pragamata ths proodou. H epistrofh stis rizes spania epilyei ta
> > > problhmata. Mallwn ta gigantwnei.
> >
> > Οι αλλαγές στην κοινωνία μπορούν να γίνουν συντηρητικά, και πάντα με
βάση
> > την πολιτιστική κληρονομιά και τις θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις του λαού.
>
> Αυτό είναι κατά τη γώμη μου ουτοπικό καθώς προυποθέτει ότι υπάρχει κάποια
> δύναμη που ελέγχει την εξέληξη.
Ναι, λέγετε δημοκρατία! :)
> Όμως η τελευταία έχει τόσο ποικιλότροπες
> εκφάνσεις που ουσιαστικά είναι ανεξέλενγκτη! Ας πάρουμε τη βιολογία. Ο
λαός
> θέλει φυσικά να είναι υγειής. Και θέλει και να ζεί παραπάνω. Άρα καλώς
> χρηματοδοτούμε τη βιολογική έρευνα. Όμως η συμαντικότερη σήμερα έρευνα στα
> βλαστικά κύταρα δημιοθργεί γκρίζα ζώνη στο ηθικό πεδίο, καθόσον
προυποθέτει
> διμιουργία ανθρωπο-βοδιών, βρεφών μερικών ημερών που καταστρέφονται για να
> τους αφαιρεθουν κύταρα κλπ.
Και νομίζεις ότι ο λαός δεν γνωρίζει (αν είχε ερωτηθεί) αν πιστεύει στην
“βιομηχανοποίηση” ή κτηνωδία κατά του ανθρώπινου οργανισμού? Τι ρόλο παίζουν
σε ένα τέτοιο θέμα οι θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις?
> Άρα δημιουργούνται περίερηγα δηλίματα που
> συνήθως απαντώνται ντεφάκτο από την αποδοχή της αλλαγής (δηλ, πχ της
> συγκεκριμένης έρευνας).
Όπως αποδέχεται η Ευρώπη τις μεταλλαγμένες τροφές?
> Δεν υπάρχει κάποια δύναμη που να μπορεί να ρυθμίσει
> αποτελεσματικά την εξέληξη. Και η εξέληξη αυτή δημιοθργεί πιέσεις για
αλλαγή
> των ηθικών αξιών, που αργά ή γρ΄γορα συμβένουν.
Το κράτος είναι αυτή η δύναμη διότι δημιουργεί τους νόμους και περιορίζει ή
ελέγχει το κάθε προϊόν και δραστηριότητα.
> > > Kat arxas tis "Ellhnikes aksies" opws esy tis orizeis den tis
> > > ephreasan oi politikoi, alla oi idioi oi polites pou epeleksan na
> > > aksiopoihsoun tous neous thesmous. Kaneis den tous ypoxrewse.
> >
> > Did the chicken make the egg, or the egg the chicken!?
> > Με αυτή τη λογική, ας ζούμε στην αναρχία! «Θεσμός» μπορεί να είναι τα
> > ναρκωτικά ή οι ομοφυλοφιλικοί «γάμοι». Ευθύνη δηλαδή δεν έχει το κράτος
> που
> > καθορίζει τι επιτρέπετε νομικά ή πως θα έχουν πρόσβαση σε αυτό οι
πολίτες?
>
> Η εξέληξη της κοινωνίας επιρεάζει τους νόμους, οι οποίοι και εφαρμόζωνται.
Η “κοινωνία” δεν είναι σε θέση να κρίνει αν κάποιο ναρκωτικό είναι ασφαλές
για χρήση. Σαν κράτος δημιουργούμε τους θεσμούς που επιβλέπουν διάφορες
(εμπορικές και προσωπικές) δραστηριότητες που έχουμε.
> Όταν κάποιες νομοθεσίες αντιβένουν στο κοινο αίσθημα, τότε στις
δημοκρατίες,
> αργά η γρήγορα καταρρέουν. Π.χ. στην Αγγλία (και στην Ελλάδα εδώ που τα
> λέμε) το χασίς είναι αρκετά συνηθισμένο <<ναρκωτικό>>. Όμως απαγορεύεται.
Και ποιος “σφυγμομετρά” το κοινό αίσθημα? Όταν δεν έχουμε δημοψηφίσματα σε
τέτοια θέματα, οι πολιτικοί δεν έχουν συζητήσεις (debates) για τις απόψεις
τους στα θέματα, όταν δεν έχει ο λαός πρόσβαση σε πληροφορίες… πως αλλάζει ο
λαός την νομοθεσία?
> Στην Αγγλία πολύ πρόσφατα υπήρξε αλλαγή της κατηγοριοποίησης του χασίς
ούτως
> ώστε να είναι ουσιαστικά νόμημη η κατοχή του. Ένα απλό παραδειγμα
> <<φυσικής>> αλλαγής του νόμου με βάση τις αλλαγές στην κοινωνία. Βέβαια
δεν
> είναι μόνο η κοινή αντιλυψη που επιρρεάζει τη νομοθεσία αλλά και οι
> επιστήμονες. Βλέπε π.χ. κάπνισμα.
Δηλαδή δεν έχουν πρόβλημα στην Αγγλία με μαστουρωμένους οδηγούς? Ο λαός και
το κράτος που το προστατεύει δεν έχει ευθύνη για τις συνέπειες της
νομιμοποίησης? Ή απλά έχουμε φτάσει στο σημείο οπού για τα ατομικά
“δικαιώματα” αγνοούμε τα κοινωνικά συμφέροντα και τις κοινωνικές
ευαισθησίες?
> > > Esy
> > > anoikeis sth sxolh pou pisteyei oti to kratos einai mia stathera pou
> > > prepei na epibalei stous polites tis aksies pou thewrei swstes. Dhladh
> > > to kratos na patronarei tous polites. Se ena tetoio montelo opou oi
> > > polites den kseroun titheloun den xreiazontai profanws kai ekloges.
> >
> > Όχι. Ανήκω σε αυτούς που πιστεύουν ότι οι πολιτικοί «elite» δεν πρέπει
να
> > επιβάλουν τις δικές τους κοινωνικές αντιλήψεις στους «οπισθοδρομικούς»
> > πολίτες. Πχ, την δεκαετία του 80 είχαμε την Nancy Παπανδρέου με τις
> > «φεμινίστριες» της που επέβαλαν στην Ελληνική κοινωνία ένα Αμερικανικό
> > σύστημα δικαίου για την οικογένεια και τους έγγαμους.
>
> Εγώ καταρχάς δεν ψιφίζω πασοκ συνήθως... για να μη μπερδευόμαστε. Αλλά
γιατί
Δεν το υπονοούσα. Ένα παράδειγμα έδωσα.
> λες ότι το επέβαλε; Με το να επιτρέπεται ο πολιτικός γάμος, δεν
υποχρεώνεται
> κάποιος να κάνει τέτοιο γάμο. Αυτό που έκανε ήταν στην ουσία άρση ενώς
> άχριστου περιορισμού που δημιουργούσε προβλήματα σε ενά αριθμό ανθρώπων.
> Αντίθετα η άρση του, δεν επηρέασε αυτούς που επιθυμούσαν θρυσκευτικό γάμο.
> Άρα δεν βλέπω γιατί πρόκειται για επιβολή;
Είναι επιβολή ενός θρησκευτικού όρου και θεσμού σε μια σχέση από μια
μη-θρησκευτική αρχή (το κράτος). Όταν μιλάς για κοινωνική εξέλιξη, όντως σε
αυτό το θέμα το βλέπουμε σε πολλές χώρες και ακόμα στην Ελλάδα. Είναι πολλοί
που συζούνε και δημιουργούν οικογένειες χωρίς να παντρεύονται. Άρα, και
εφόσον αυτοί οι άνθρωποι δεν έχουν την θρησκευτική νοοτροπία για τη σχέση
ενός άνδρα με μια γυναίκα, ποιος ο λόγος να βαφτίζει το κράτος την σχέση
τους σαν “γάμος”? Με αυτή την ενέργεια το κράτος επιβάλει την αναγνώριση
μιας μη-θρησκευτικής ένωσης σαν ισότιμη με μια θρησκευτική.
> > > Antithetws h dhmokratia orizei oti to kratos einai to athrisma twn
> > > epithymiwn twn politwn. An oi epithymeies allazoun tote kai oi aksies
> > > allazoun.
> >
> > NEWS FLASH: Hellas is NOT a democracy! Είχαμε κανένα δημοψήφισμα για
> > οποιοδήποτε κοινωνικό θέμα?
>
> Το να κάνει κανείς δημοψηφίσματα για διαφορα θέματα είναι αδύνατο. Καμιά
Ποιος ψεύτης σου είπε τέτοιο πράγμα? :)
Τα δημοψηφίσματα λειτουργούν θαυμάσια σε αρκετές (πραγματικές) δημοκρατίες.
> κυβέρνηση δεν μπορεί να κυβερνησει έτσι. Εκ των πραγμάτων οι κυβερνησεις
> κρινονται συνολικά στις εκλογές. Νομίζω ότι αυτό δεν μειώνει την
> δημοκρατικότητα ενός πολυτεύματος.
Έχουμε εκλογές στην Ελλάδα όπου οι πολιτικοί κρίνονται για τις απόψεις που
εκφράσανε σε συζητήσεις (debates) για επίκαιρα θέματα? Σε παρακαλώ να μου
πεις γιατί έχω μια τελείως διαφορετική αντίληψη για την Ελληνική
“δημοκρατία”!
Όταν σε “κερατώσει” η γυναίκα σου, κρατήσει τα παιδιά, μείνει μέσα στο σπίτι
σου, της πληρώνεις και διατροφή… έλα μετά να μου πεις αν το έγκλημα της
(μοιχεία) θα πρέπει να θεωρείτε και έτσι από το κράτος. Αλλά και πάλι
αδιαφορούμε για τα επακόλουθα που έχουν τέτοιες αλλαγές στην κοινωνία
(νομοθεσία). Τι γίνεται με την οικογένεια (δες διαζύγια) και τα παιδία που
επηρεάζονται (και στρέφονται στα ναρκωτικά)? Σου φαίνεται παράξενο ότι και
στα δυο προβληματικά αυτά θέματα έχουμε επιδείνωση? Αναρωτήθηκε κανένας
πολιτικός για τους λόγους που έχουμε αυξήσεις σε αυτά και άλλα κοινωνικά
προβλήματα?
gogu
The NAZI Turkish TROLL Pi-pi-Latrinos is ANGRY again ;-))))
I love to imagine him on his floor with foam in his filthy mouth :-)))
Mr. Latrinos is a self-admitted FASCIST who maintains a page about the much
hated Greek junta!
He is an ethnic Turk, one of those who managed to stay in Greece after the
exchange of the populations.
He is fighting against anything Greek, under the mantle of the
ultra-nationalist...
This way he is trying to harm the image of Greece and to serve his
fatherland Turkey.
As a notorious FASCIST and a junta apologist he is despised by virtually
every Greek here and that's why he has no supporters except one sad
exception...
He is coming and gone in this ng from time to time, and every time he is
bringing with him flames...
He is a sad TROLL pestering this ng regularly.
He is a LIAR, a distorter, a real human (?) trash.
Sad, sad, sad...
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos gamiola, o Pi-pi-Latrinos einai kai
ta dyo ;-)
Pipes sthn Xoynta kai ston Pi-pi-Latrino ;-)
Have a nice evening TROLL ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI TURKISH TROLL Pi-pi-Latrinos"
<dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:dQtxc.170070$WA4.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
stardimi****
"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> wrote in message
> "stardimi****" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:40c4c8b9$0$6339$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
>
> > > > En pash periptosh ayto pou les proypothetei oti
> > > > yphrxe politistikh syrriknwsh thn opoia anastrepse h Xounta. Omws
> > > > aytou pou polles palies karabanes den katalabenoun einai oti oi
> > > > allages pou symbenoun se mia koinwnia den einai apla monodiastata
> > > > fainomena kai sxedon panta epiferoun problhmata mazi me ta thetika
> > > > pragamata ths proodou. H epistrofh stis rizes spania epilyei ta
> > > > problhmata. Mallwn ta gigantwnei.
> > >
> > > Οι αλλαγές στην κοινωνία μπορούν να γίνουν συντηρητικά, και πάντα με
> βάση
> > > την πολιτιστική κληρονομιά και τις θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις του λαού.
> >
> > Αυτό είναι κατά τη γώμη μου ουτοπικό καθώς προυποθέτει ότι υπάρχει
κάποια
> > δύναμη που ελέγχει την εξέληξη.
>
> Ναι, λέγετε δημοκρατία! :)
Θεωρητικά ίσως, στην πράξη όμως η επιστημονική έρευνα δεν εξαρτάται ισχυρά
από τη λαική βούληση γιατί είναι ένα πεδίο που χωρίς σχετική γνώση δύσκολα
αποφαίνεσαι. Στο κάτω κάτω πιθανών και να μην έχει νόημα ο έλεγχος της
έρευνας... Η εφαρμογή ελεγχεται αλλά όχι και η έρευνα. Δηλαδή τι, κάποιος θα
πεί ε μην ψάχνεις εκεί γιατί μη γκαγκά κακό;
>
> > Όμως η τελευταία έχει τόσο ποικιλότροπες
> > εκφάνσεις που ουσιαστικά είναι ανεξέλενγκτη! Ας πάρουμε τη βιολογία. Ο
> λαός
> > θέλει φυσικά να είναι υγειής. Και θέλει και να ζεί παραπάνω. Άρα καλώς
> > χρηματοδοτούμε τη βιολογική έρευνα. Όμως η συμαντικότερη σήμερα έρευνα
στα
> > βλαστικά κύταρα δημιοθργεί γκρίζα ζώνη στο ηθικό πεδίο, καθόσον
> προυποθέτει
> > διμιουργία ανθρωπο-βοδιών, βρεφών μερικών ημερών που καταστρέφονται για
να
> > τους αφαιρεθουν κύταρα κλπ.
>
> Και νομίζεις ότι ο λαός δεν γνωρίζει (αν είχε ερωτηθεί) αν πιστεύει στην
> “βιομηχανοποίηση” ή κτηνωδία κατά του ανθρώπινου οργανισμού?
Εγώ το αποκάλεσα γκρίζα ζώνη, εσύ βιάστικες να ταχθείς αρνητικά. Γιατί το
αποκαλείς κτινοδία; Αν για παράδειγμα έχεις νεκρό ιστό στην καρδιά σου, λόγω
εμφράγματος και σου προτεινόταν θεραπία με βλαστοκύταρα, θα έλεγες όχι;
> Τι ρόλο παίζουν
> σε ένα τέτοιο θέμα οι θρησκευτικές αντιλήψεις?
>
Εδώ εν μέρη είναι το πρόβλημα. Οτι η θρησκεία αδυνατεί να ανταπεξέλθει ως
εργαλείο ηθηκού προσανατολισμού, κατά την ταπεινή μου γνώμη δηλαδή... Για να
στο πώ αλλιώς κάποιος που επιχειρεί να αξιολογήσει ηθικά τέτοιου είδους
καταστάσεις με θρησκευτικά κριτίρια έχει κατα τη γνώμη μου μεγαλύτερη
πιθανότητα σύγχησης, και κατάληξης στην ανηθικότητα. Αντιθέτως αυτός που
ενεργεί με βάση ένα ατομικό σύστημα εσωτερικών αξιών που έχουν νόημα για το
ίδιο το άτομο, έχει καλλήτερες πιθανότητες ηθικής επιβίωσης.
>
> > Άρα δημιουργούνται περίερηγα δηλίματα που
> > συνήθως απαντώνται ντεφάκτο από την αποδοχή της αλλαγής (δηλ, πχ της
> > συγκεκριμένης έρευνας).
>
> Όπως αποδέχεται η Ευρώπη τις μεταλλαγμένες τροφές?
Ναι ας πούμε. Στο συγκεκριμένο παράδειγμα υπάρχει μια σύγχιση στους
πλυθισμούς και στις νομοθεσίες αντίστοιχα. Βλέπουμε αλλού να απαγορεύονται,
μετά να επιτρέπονται ορισμένα κλπ. Αλλά η αποδοχή είναι αναπόφευκτη. Γιατί
το όφελος έναι μεγάλο. Όταν γίνει κατανοητό ότι γενικά τα μεταλλατγμένα
έχουν μεγάλα οφέλη για την υγεία αν εξαιρεθούν ορισμένα είδη, τότε όλοι θα
διαδηλώνουν για να επιτραπούν! Και μόνο ότι θα εξαφανησθούν τα λιπάσματα από
το πιάτο μας δεν είναι μεγάλο κέρδος;
>
> > Δεν υπάρχει κάποια δύναμη που να μπορεί να ρυθμίσει
> > αποτελεσματικά την εξέληξη. Και η εξέληξη αυτή δημιοθργεί πιέσεις για
> αλλαγή
> > των ηθικών αξιών, που αργά ή γρ΄γορα συμβένουν.
>
> Το κράτος είναι αυτή η δύναμη διότι δημιουργεί τους νόμους και περιορίζει
ή
> ελέγχει το κάθε προϊόν και δραστηριότητα.
'Εχεις μεγάλο λάθος εδώ αλλά είναι δύσκολο να σε πήσω. Κανείς υπουργός δεν
μπορεί να μπεί σε κάποιο εργαστίριο και να αρχισει να λέει, α;υτό κάν'το
αλλά εκείνο μην το κάνεις. Η επιστίμη αντικειμενικά ελέγχεται μόνο από την
ίδια την επιστημονική κοινότητα. Και όποτε εμφανίζεται κάποιος που λέει ας
πούμε, μην ερευνάς με ανθρώπινα εμβριονικά βλαστικά κύταρα, εμφανίζεται
κάποιος άλλος κάπου αλλού στον κόσμο και το κάνει. Αυτό εννοώ όταν λέω ότι
δεν υπάρχει δύναμη που να ελέγχει την εξέληξη. Αργά ή γρήγορα η έρευνα
γίνεται και τα αποτελέσματα καταλήγουν σε όλους μας.
>
> > > > Kat arxas tis "Ellhnikes aksies" opws esy tis orizeis den tis
> > > > ephreasan oi politikoi, alla oi idioi oi polites pou epeleksan na
> > > > aksiopoihsoun tous neous thesmous. Kaneis den tous ypoxrewse.
> > >
> > > Did the chicken make the egg, or the egg the chicken!?
> > > Με αυτή τη λογική, ας ζούμε στην αναρχία! «Θεσμός» μπορεί να είναι τα
> > > ναρκωτικά ή οι ομοφυλοφιλικοί «γάμοι». Ευθύνη δηλαδή δεν έχει το
κράτος
> > που
> > > καθορίζει τι επιτρέπετε νομικά ή πως θα έχουν πρόσβαση σε αυτό οι
> πολίτες?
> >
> > Η εξέληξη της κοινωνίας επιρεάζει τους νόμους, οι οποίοι και
εφαρμόζωνται.
>
> Η “κοινωνία” δεν είναι σε θέση να κρίνει αν κάποιο ναρκωτικό είναι ασφαλές
> για χρήση. Σαν κράτος δημιουργούμε τους θεσμούς που επιβλέπουν διάφορες
> (εμπορικές και προσωπικές) δραστηριότητες που έχουμε.
Αλήθεια είναι αυτό, αλλά τότε το ερώτημα είναι, γιατί το χασίς θεωρήται
ναρκωτικό σαν την ηρωήνη για παράδειγμα, ενώ στην πραγματικότητα ειναά κάτι,
περίπου όσο βλαβερό είναι και το κάπνισμα; Μήπως αυτό οφήλεται σε κοινωνικής
φύσεως ανιτλύψεις; Αυτό που άλλαξε λοιπόν δεν είναι η άποψη των
εμπειρογνωμόνων αλλά η κοινωνικές αντιλύψεις επί του θέματος.
>
>
> > Όταν κάποιες νομοθεσίες αντιβένουν στο κοινο αίσθημα, τότε στις
> δημοκρατίες,
> > αργά η γρήγορα καταρρέουν. Π.χ. στην Αγγλία (και στην Ελλάδα εδώ που τα
> > λέμε) το χασίς είναι αρκετά συνηθισμένο <<ναρκωτικό>>. Όμως
απαγορεύεται.
>
> Και ποιος “σφυγμομετρά” το κοινό αίσθημα? Όταν δεν έχουμε δημοψηφίσματα σε
> τέτοια θέματα, οι πολιτικοί δεν έχουν συζητήσεις (debates) για τις απόψεις
> τους στα θέματα, όταν δεν έχει ο λαός πρόσβαση σε πληροφορίες… πως αλλάζει
ο
> λαός την νομοθεσία?
Α με αυτή την έννοια γίνονται έρευνες κοινής γνώμης αλλά όχι με
δημοψιφίσματα αλλά με δημοσκόπήσεις σε ομάδες ενδιαφέροντος. Μάλληστα πολλοί
λένε ότι οι κυβερνήσεις το παρακάνουν με τις δημοσκοπήσεις και αντί να κάνου
πολιτική, χαιδεύουν αφτιά...
>
> > Στην Αγγλία πολύ πρόσφατα υπήρξε αλλαγή της κατηγοριοποίησης του χασίς
> ούτως
> > ώστε να είναι ουσιαστικά νόμημη η κατοχή του. Ένα απλό παραδειγμα
> > <<φυσικής>> αλλαγής του νόμου με βάση τις αλλαγές στην κοινωνία. Βέβαια
> δεν
> > είναι μόνο η κοινή αντιλυψη που επιρρεάζει τη νομοθεσία αλλά και οι
> > επιστήμονες. Βλέπε π.χ. κάπνισμα.
>
>
> Δηλαδή δεν έχουν πρόβλημα στην Αγγλία με μαστουρωμένους οδηγούς? Ο λαός
και
> το κράτος που το προστατεύει δεν έχει ευθύνη για τις συνέπειες της
> νομιμοποίησης?
Σαφώς, και νομίζω ότι γίνονται έλεγχοι, αλλά εν πάση περιπτόσει απαγορεύεται
να οδηγας μαστουρωμένος, παντού, όχι μόνο στην Αγγλία.
> Ή απλά έχουμε φτάσει στο σημείο οπού για τα ατομικά
> “δικαιώματα” αγνοούμε τα κοινωνικά συμφέροντα και τις κοινωνικές
> ευαισθησίες?
>
΄Πάντα θα υπάρχει τριβή μεταξύ αυτών των δύο, αλλά συνηθως η αλήθεια είναι
κάπου ανάμεσα.
Εδώ συμφωνώ, ως προς την καταλληλότητα τησ λέξης "γάμος"... Αλλά άλλο να
μηλάμε για την επιβολή μιάς λέξης, και άλλο να λέμε ότι η Μαργαρήτα επετέθει
εναντίων των παντρεμένων. |Πράγματι ίσως θα έπρεπε να χρησιμοποιήται κάποια
άλλη λέξη για τον πολιτκό γάμο.
>
> > > > Antithetws h dhmokratia orizei oti to kratos einai to athrisma twn
> > > > epithymiwn twn politwn. An oi epithymeies allazoun tote kai oi
aksies
> > > > allazoun.
> > >
> > > NEWS FLASH: Hellas is NOT a democracy! Είχαμε κανένα δημοψήφισμα για
> > > οποιοδήποτε κοινωνικό θέμα?
> >
> > Το να κάνει κανείς δημοψηφίσματα για διαφορα θέματα είναι αδύνατο. Καμιά
>
> Ποιος ψεύτης σου είπε τέτοιο πράγμα? :)
>
> Τα δημοψηφίσματα λειτουργούν θαυμάσια σε αρκετές (πραγματικές)
δημοκρατίες.
Ενδιαφέρον. Που??
>
>
> > κυβέρνηση δεν μπορεί να κυβερνησει έτσι. Εκ των πραγμάτων οι κυβερνησεις
> > κρινονται συνολικά στις εκλογές. Νομίζω ότι αυτό δεν μειώνει την
> > δημοκρατικότητα ενός πολυτεύματος.
>
> Έχουμε εκλογές στην Ελλάδα όπου οι πολιτικοί κρίνονται για τις απόψεις που
> εκφράσανε σε συζητήσεις (debates) για επίκαιρα θέματα? Σε παρακαλώ να μου
> πεις γιατί έχω μια τελείως διαφορετική αντίληψη για την Ελληνική
> “δημοκρατία”!
Το επίπεδο της δημοκρατίας εξαρτάται από τον πολίτη. Και για να μην είμαστε
άδηκοι, σε σχέση με παλεότερες εκλογές, στη συγκερημενη περιπτοση ήταν
αρκετά πιο νιφάλειες και εγκεφαλικές. Παρ' όλα αυτά η συνολική ποιότητα ήταν
χαμηλή. Αλλά αφού αυτό "πιάνει" αυτό γίνεται. Παράθυρα θέλετε; Παράθυρα θα
έχετε. Εν τέλει και η τηλεθέαση ένα δημοψήφισμα μέσω του τηλεκοντρόλ δεν
είναι;
Το πρόβλημα προφανώς είναι όλα τα υπόλειπα και όχι τόσο η μοιχεία...
> Αλλά και πάλι
> αδιαφορούμε για τα επακόλουθα που έχουν τέτοιες αλλαγές στην κοινωνία
> (νομοθεσία). Τι γίνεται με την οικογένεια (δες διαζύγια) και τα παιδία που
> επηρεάζονται (και στρέφονται στα ναρκωτικά)? Σου φαίνεται παράξενο ότι και
> στα δυο προβληματικά αυτά θέματα έχουμε επιδείνωση? Αναρωτήθηκε κανένας
> πολιτικός για τους λόγους που έχουμε αυξήσεις σε αυτά και άλλα κοινωνικά
> προβλήματα?
Το αν ένα ζευγάρι πρέπει να μένει μαζί εφόσον ένας εκ των δύο, η και οι δύο
δεν θέλουν, νομίζω ότι η απάντηση είναι προφανής! Το ερώτημα προς εσένα
είναι, γιατί εμφανίζονται όλο και περισσότεροι που θέλουν να χωρίσουν;
Άσχετα με το τι γίνεται τελικά... Για τα παιδιά το πρόβλημα είναι
πραγματικό. Αλλά δυσκολεύομαι να βγάλω συμπερασμα. Το ότι σε μια οικογένεια
που όλα βενουν περίπου καλώς, τα παιδιά τη βγάζουν καλλητερα, έναι
αναμφυσβητιτο. Όμως σε μία οικογένεια που οι γονείς σκυλοτσακόνονται μπροστά
στα παιδιά, και αυτό εξίσου κακό δεν είναι; Επίσης αν ο χωρισμός γίνει
πολιτισμένα, χωρίς τσακομούς μπροστα στα παιδιά, και χωρις να τραβολογούν τα
παιδιά στα δικαστηρια, μήπως τελικά και αυτό δεν είναι και τόσο κακό; Δεν
είμαι σήγουρος. Υποπτεύομαι ότι τα πιο πολλα προβλήματα δημιουργούνται επιδή
ζούμε σε μία μεταβατική περίοδο μεταξύ δύο κσομοθεωριών. Οι πιο πολλοί από
μας χωρίς να το πολυκαταλαβένουμε χρισμοποιούμε και παλιές και νέες αξίες σε
ένα αντιφατικό μήγμα που προκαλεί ανούσιες τριβές μεταξύ των ανθρώπων. Ακόμα
και η νομοθεσία έιναι έτσι. Ως προς ταναρκωτικά στους νέους, σαφώς τα
προβλήματα στο σπίτι παίζουν ρόλο, αλλά και άλλα πολλά, όπως η ηθηκή σύγχυση
που λέγαμε παραπάνω. Το ότι δηλαδή προσπαθούν να εφαρμόσουν ένα ηθικό
σύστημα σε ένα κόσμο που το έχει ξεπεράζει. Αυτό είναι ένα υπαρξιακό
αδιέξοδο που οδηγεί σε μια αίσθηση ματαιοητας και σε μια διάθεση
απεγνοσμένης απόδρασης. Όχι με εγκεφαλικές πλέον ενέργειες αλλά με χημικές!
>
>
>
DFN
re gogu esy eisai pou milas gia reconciliation se anthropous pou exoun
diafora apopsewn. Ti kaneis auth th stigmh; Eixeis ektroxeiastei pantlews.
Prospathise na kratas th sizitisi se kosmia kai orthologika kritiria. Oi
prosopikes kai abasimes epithesis den meionoun ton allon, alla mallon esena.
To na apokaleis ena Ellina Tourko gia na kerdiseis ton polemo ton endiposeon
den exei kammia thesi.
I apopseis tou kathenos mazi me to politiko tous stigma einai dikaioma tou
kathenos. I kritiki einai episis dikaoma olon. I laspi omos den armozei se
kanena.
Stick to the facts gogu and don't let discussions meander and denigrate to
the abysmally low levels I am witnessing. Constructive and factual critisism
is far more effective than baseless allegations.
Manos
http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Takism5.htm
The catchword amongst old hands at the US military mission in Greece
was that Papadopoulos was "the first CIA agent to become Premier of a
European country". "Many Greeks consider this to be the simple truth,"
reported Charles Foley in 'The Observer' of London. [21]
At the time of the coup, Papadopoulos had been on the CIA payroll for
US Vice-president Spiro Agnew, on a visit to the land of his
by William Blum
http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Takism5.htm
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Yavrukurt
> Hihihi:-)))
> The NAZI Turkish TROLL Pi-pi-Latrinos is ANGRY again ;-))))
> I love to imagine him on his floor with foam in his filthy mouth :-)))
>
You love to imagine a LOT of very sick, very twisted things don't you
Constantine, I would seriously seek some counselling if I were you,
you are one small step away from living out your deranged fantasies
gogu
news:2ir7tlF...@uni-berlin.de...
> <snip arloubes>
>
> re gogu esy eisai pou milas gia reconciliation se anthropous pou exoun
> diafora apopsewn. Ti kaneis auth th stigmh;
Xezw ena xoyntiko ka8arma poy exei pei toy kosmoy ta psemata gia emena, poy
me ebrise epaneilhmena, ktl, ktl, ktl!
Dikaiwma moy den einai?
An den soy aresei, bale me sto killfile soy kai ka8arises!
Egw soy eipa pote pws na grafeis?...
> Eixeis ektroxeiastei pantlews.
Sobara?
Na balw thn gata moy na klaiei!
> Prospathise na kratas th sizitisi se kosmia kai orthologika kritiria.
Opws kanei kai to filaraki soy o Latrinos?
8eleis na soy balw edw merika apo te emmetika posting toy?
Oxi?
To ypopsiazomoyn!...
> Oi
> prosopikes kai abasimes epithesis den meionoun ton allon,
Tote giati tis kanei to filaraki soy o Latrinos?
H mhpws 8eleis aytos na leei oti leei, alla oi alloi na kanoyn toympeki
psilokomeno?...
> alla mallon esena.
Kai oxi ayto to ka8arma poy leei gia thm mana moy h gia thn e8nikothta moy?
Ase re megale, katalabame...
> To na apokaleis ena Ellina Tourko gia na kerdiseis ton polemo ton
endiposeon
> den exei kammia thesi.
A mpaaa?
Alla fantazomai to na me apokalei aytos Roymano, exei 8esh ;-)))
H to na me kathgorei oti trollarw sto scg???!!!
H oti na leei gia thn mana moy???!!!
Ktl, ktl, ktl...
E re ti "entimoi" poy hsaste eseis toy logoy sas ;-)
> I apopseis tou kathenos mazi me to politiko tous stigma einai dikaioma tou
> kathenos. I kritiki einai episis dikaoma olon. I laspi omos den armozei se
> kanena.
Swwwpa!
Giati tote to filaraki soy thn rixnei me ton tono?...
> Stick to the facts gogu and don't let discussions meander and denigrate to
> the abysmally low levels I am witnessing.
Alla gia to filaraki soy ton Latrino, aytoi fysika den isxyei:-))
Aytos menei sta facts kai den denigrades toys alloys kai den rixnei ka8oloy
thn suzhthsh me epi8eseis sthn mana moy h sthn Ellhnikothta moy!!! Akomh kai
oti postarw apo dyo logariasnoys eipe to goyroyni! Epeidh to kanei aytos,
nomizei oti to idio kanoyn kai oi alloi! Me ayto to ka8iki 8eleis na kanw
sobarh syzhthsh?!!!
Aferim magka, na xarw antikeimenikothta!
> Constructive and factual critisism
> is far more effective than baseless allegations.
Tote na peis ston parakeimwmeno soy na mhn prosbalei me RATSISTIKOYS
xarakthrismoys kao epi8eseis toys alloys!
Me *oloys* toys decent posters edw mesa exei xestei, ayto kati leei gia to
poion toy ka8armatos!
Alla bebaia esei exei anoixta ta matia soy mono gia thn *amyna* twn allwn
enantion toy ka8armatos...
Ti na pw, den perimena kai kati kalytero...
DFN
Signomi alla esi den eisai autos pou upografei kathe posting me to
"E'mai..." bla bla. Ti thes na upothesi o kathenas me auto to sig; I
pleinotita ton anthropon sto scg den grorizoun thn roumaniki glossa. Ean
opws les eisai kai niothis Ellinas giati oxi kati Elliniko, ena apoftegma
apo ta polla pou exei na prosferei o topos mas. Eidika opos eipa efoson les
oti eisai Ellinas kai apethineis tis apopseis sou sto scGreek.
> > Stick to the facts gogu and don't let discussions meander and denigrate
to
> > the abysmally low levels I am witnessing.
>
> Alla gia to filaraki soy ton Latrino, aytoi fysika den isxyei:-))
Oute filarakos, oute omoideatis mou einai alla o anthropos apo oti exo
paratirisi kanei leptomeri analysi kai os epi to pleiston prosferei piges.
Auto then to exo dei akoma apo thn pleura sou.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"DFN" <I...@cyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:2itqe5F...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Alla fantazomai to na me apokalei aytos Roymano, exei 8esh ;-)))
>
> Signomi alla esi den eisai autos pou upografei kathe posting me to
> "E'mai..." bla bla. Ti thes na upothesi o kathenas me auto to sig; I
Signomi, alla o idios den eixe anagnorisei tin Roumaniki tou katagogi? To
oti exo pei gi'auton toulaxiston to kano me tis piges kai apopseis pou o
idios exei parousiasei.
Den nomizo oti iparxei kananas logikos anthropos pou pistepse to psema toy
sxetika me "plastikografisi" tis tautotitas tou to 1999.
> pleinotita ton anthropon sto scg den grorizoun thn roumaniki glossa. Ean
> opws les eisai kai niothis Ellinas giati oxi kati Elliniko, ena apoftegma
> apo ta polla pou exei na prosferei o topos mas. Eidika opos eipa efoson
les
> oti eisai Ellinas kai apethineis tis apopseis sou sto scGreek.
Dimokratia exoume, kai o kathenas mporei na grafei oti thelei. Tora an
kapios einai 3enerotos kai exei mania me to kathe ti mi-Elliniko (akoma kai
sti thriskia)... auto toulaxiston gia mena dixnei anthellinikes taseis kai
psixologika esthimata katoterotitas.
> > > Stick to the facts gogu and don't let discussions meander and
denigrate
> to
> > > the abysmally low levels I am witnessing.
> >
> > Alla gia to filaraki soy ton Latrino, aytoi fysika den isxyei:-))
>
> Oute filarakos, oute omoideatis mou einai alla o anthropos apo oti exo
> paratirisi kanei leptomeri analysi kai os epi to pleiston prosferei piges.
> Auto then to exo dei akoma apo thn pleura sou.
Euxaristo gia ta sxolia. Autos einai episis kai o logos pou ekopsa ti
sizitisi me ton Mano. Prospathouse maniasmena na katebasi to epipedo tis
sizitisis (des px. "your junta masters") kai den apodexotan e3akribomenes
piges kai plirofories. Gi'auto malista to logo etre3e se allo forum gia
plirofories, pou distixos gi'auton ipostiri3an apolitos auta pou parousiasa.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=248068&messageid=1086718813&lp=1086966462
Kai gia osous theloun perisoteres plirofories gia tin drasi ton enopleon
dinameon ton Ioulio tou 1974 (me anafores apo stratiotes pou polemisan):
http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/forum/eldyk.html
Cdiner2001
Wow Dionisio. I visited that link . It seem s that you follow Mano on the
internet. It's a free country and if someone has something to say about anyone
they do not need permission. You say on that link that you did not mean it that
way but you make very clear that you do. You should not be so sensitive. Be
more realistic too. You told to Mano ' if you wanted to talk about me then you
should have informed me about it'. Why should anyone inform you?. Are you
serious?. It is safe to say that this is not a common practice especially if
there is some kind of hostility by one or both parties towards the other. I
don't know about anyone else but to me that was like comedy the thing that you
said. Do you think that someone has to inform you whenever they say something
about you?. I don't know what that kind of behavior is called. Maybe it's
megalomania that you got. Anyway that is all I have to say about it I just
wanted to voice an opinion about how strange you show yourself by saying that.
Manos
> Dimokratia exoume, kai o kathenas mporei na grafei oti thelei.
If you really believe this then why are you suggesting that I
should have "informed" you of my post which mentioned you on
network54? ( Greece/Turkey defense forum). Are you trying to prove
that you are a hypocrite?.
> Euxaristo gia ta sxolia. Autos einai episis kai o logos pou ekopsa ti
> sizitisi me ton Mano. Prospathouse maniasmena na katebasi to epipedo tis
> sizitisis (des px. "your junta masters") kai den apodexotan e3akribomenes
> piges kai plirofories. Gi'auto malista to logo etre3e se allo forum gia
> plirofories, pou distixos gi'auton ipostiri3an apolitos auta pou parousiasa.
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=248068&messageid=1086718813&lp=1086966462
LOL!. Wow I must have really gotten to you with that post.
>
> Kai gia osous theloun perisoteres plirofories gia tin drasi ton enopleon
> dinameon ton Ioulio tou 1974 (me anafores apo stratiotes pou polemisan):
> http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/forum/eldyk.html
That's a great link above. Too bad it was posted/distributed by
someone else on network54 for all to see. Maybe you should use links
like that on your own website. First hand accounts of these things are
ALWAYS better.
++
Manos
describes our resident nationalist/obsessed individual that is known
as "Dionisios Pilarinos"
"OBSESSION. As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks,
or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit.
It is difficult if not impossible for any nationalist to conceal his
allegiance. The smallest slur upon his own unit, or any implied praise
of a rival organization, fills him with uneasiness which he can
relieve only by making some sharp retort."
http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/index.cgi/work/essays/nationalism.html
Like a concept straight out of an Orwellian mindset, you will
notice the following from reading Pilarinos' posts , especially those
which are related to his undying support of an oppressive junta regime
which ruled Greece through torture and terror for 7 years. All of the
following ( and possibly even more) can absolutely be derived from
reading his various posts regarding his junta leanings:
Cowardice=Bravery
Injustice=Justice
Dishonor=Honor
Opression=Freedom
Lies=Truth
Cruelty=Compassion
Furthermore I have had experience with these types throughout my
life time. To agree with these types is to be taken as a *weakness* by
them, regardless of your intentions and/or if you genuinely agree. To
address these people with the usual norm of respect is also to be
taken as weakness by them and will automatically subject you to
condescension and riducule at their whim or leisure, whenever they
deem it fit do do so..smply because you have not attacked them. Any
form or attempt at reconciliation is also taken as *severe* weakness
and thus will make a more desirable target for people such as
Pilarinos. In general, these types ( such as Pilarinos) are not
adjusted well *socially* and usually have problems making or keeping
freinds, attracting members of the opposite sex or keeping a
girlfriend/boyfriend or a spouse ( as their attitudes and the way they
interact makes them much less desirable company). Their attitude and
outlooks on things in general, coupled with their unusual level of
experiencing rejection ( compared to most people) creates fertile
ground for *sexual* problems as well ( which adds to their overall
hostility, which possibly may be one of the reasons why Pilarinos is
usually so inexplicably hostile to almost all he comes into contact
with ). Interaction with these types of people almost always leaves
the other person sensing constant conflict eminating from the
affected one. It is rare that they can just say "I agree" simply in
that form without adding some comment to cover up any sign there may
have been some kind of percieved *weakness* in their response. They
are always in a personal "crisis alert" mode and usually very intense
, to the point where people come to loathe them in the extreme, making
scores of enemies in the process. They are always trying to project
themselves more powerful , more knowledgeable and more astute than
anyone within their personal sphere of interaction for fear that
someone would challenge the affected ones' image of him/her self. Even
if one agree's with them, the agreement is not enough. The affected
one, MUST try and humiliate the person agreeing with him/her so as not
to "permit" anyone to knowing more than them about a particular
subject/topic or event even if the one agreeing with them is doing so
in a docile and well-mannered way. In short, these people ( such as
Pilarinos) usually lead very tense and ultimately lonely existances.
In my opinion, I believe that what I state above is extremely
accurate. Hopefully Mr. Pilarinos will get some help on a proffesional
level be it by the use of Psyho-analysts and therapists or by
recognition of his own behavior and changing that behavior in order to
lead a higher quality of existance and happiness. Unfortunately I
cannot offer any sincere well wishes to him , as it will most likely
cause him to attack this post and I don't want to humiliate him any
more than is necessary. "Humiliation" you say?.......correct. It is
humiliation which these people need in order to realize that they are
frail human beings, warts and all, just like anyone else.
Dionysios Pilarinos
"Cdiner2001" <cdine...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611172400...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> Wow Dionisio. I visited that link . It seem s that you follow Mano on
the
> internet.
If that it how it "seems" to you, then seek help for paranoia. I was a
registered member of that forum prior to Manos writing that message
(although he was not aware of that).
> It's a free country and if someone has something to say about anyone
> they do not need permission. You say on that link that you did not mean it
that
As you correctly indicate, I did say that he can post anything he wants
without my permission. As for what I meant by it, I guess you must know me
so well to comment on it!
> way but you make very clear that you do. You should not be so sensitive.
Be
And I wasn't. If I were "sensitive" about it, I would have insulted him
either on that forum or this newsgroup. Have I? Since the answer is no, then
you are obviously mistaken once again.
> more realistic too. You told to Mano ' if you wanted to talk about me then
you
> should have informed me about it'. Why should anyone inform you?. Are you
If you are going to write about someone, you have an obligation (out of
courtesy and in some case legal requirements) to let them know. For example,
when I reviewed Dr. Matsa's book on hellas.org, I informed him at his
presentation that I would be writing an article about it. Some time later,
he sent me a response which I posted and commented on
(http://www.hellas.org/news/2000/nea-00aa.htm). I did that out of courtesy,
when I obviously was under no obligation to inform him or publish his
response.
> serious?. It is safe to say that this is not a common practice especially
if
> there is some kind of hostility by one or both parties towards the other.
I
It is common practice especially in mass media or specialized/professional
communities (which I would consider for the forum). Are you a member of
either to have some experience to talk of? Do you know of any professional
forum or publication that allows one member to attack another (or their
views/positions) without informing them and allowing them the opportunity to
respond?
> don't know about anyone else but to me that was like comedy the thing that
you
> said. Do you think that someone has to inform you whenever they say
something
> about you?. I don't know what that kind of behavior is called. Maybe it's
Well, depending on what one says it could be "slander". Not that I am
claiming that Mano's statements on the forum are anywhere near the legal
definition of the term. Any public statement made about another individual
(with the exception perhaps of certain "high profile celebrities") is
usually governed by legal restrictions (in most countries).
Since I post using my real identity, any personal attack that violates legal
restrictions can provide the victim with legal recourse. Something a few
anonymous trolls should think long and hard about.
> megalomania that you got. Anyway that is all I have to say about it I just
> wanted to voice an opinion about how strange you show yourself by saying
that.
Sounds to me like you already reached a conclusion! Perhaps it is you with
the megalomania for thinking you know everything - especially for a topic
you clearly do not. If you honestly had a question about my position ("Do
you think that someone has to inform you whenever they say something about
you?"), then you would have reserved "judgement".
Obviously on USENET a great number of people feel that the "anonymity" with
which they shield themselves allows them to act in a manner which is
inconceivable anywhere else in society. Too foolishly they ignore the fact
that laws extend into "cyberspace" to an extend greater than in the local
community they live in.
There is a fine line, and I'm not one to try and restrict the free speech of
people by wielding threats of lawsuits. But cross that line, and anyone (who
does not mask their identity) can and SHOULD take action. Those with the
courage to stand by their convictions and use their real name should have
protection from the slander and personal attacks of some anonymous coward.
Now that you gave me an opportunity to respond to your "question"
(conclusion), either use that added information or discard it. Your call.
Dionysios Pilarinos
news:40ca4f88$0$3044$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
Kavlina, haven't you died yet, you old Skopian bitch?
BTW, only a retard would post in html.
> > Dimokratia exoume, kai o kathenas mporei na grafei oti thelei.
>
> If you really believe this then why are you suggesting that I
> should have "informed" you of my post which mentioned you on
> network54? ( Greece/Turkey defense forum). Are you trying to prove
> that you are a hypocrite?.
Like I stated, you SHOULD have informed me out of COURTESY. I don't expect
you to understand the concept, so don't bother trying to comment on its
application here. In any case, how does my statement restrict your right to
free speech in any way? Please explain it to me so that I can perhaps
understand the relevancy of the "hypocrite" remark.
Better yet, DON'T.
> > Euxaristo gia ta sxolia. Autos einai episis kai o logos pou ekopsa ti
> > sizitisi me ton Mano. Prospathouse maniasmena na katebasi to epipedo tis
> > sizitisis (des px. "your junta masters") kai den apodexotan
e3akribomenes
> > piges kai plirofories. Gi'auto malista to logo etre3e se allo forum gia
> > plirofories, pou distixos gi'auton ipostiri3an apolitos auta pou
parousiasa.
> >
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=248068&messageid=1086718813&lp=1086966462
>
> LOL!. Wow I must have really gotten to you with that post.
If you did, I would have responded in kind. But my time is quite limited to
waste on yet another "flame" with someone that has proven himself to be
incapable of a civilized discussion. The satisfaction you indicate in the
above line (about "getting to me" with insults) is clear proof that you are
more interested in "pushing buttons" then engaging in a serious discussion.
If you have nothing better to do with your time, then feel free to start a
flame with the countless trolls in this newsgroup. It won't bother me the
least because you're all kill-filed.
BTW, what made me LOL was the fact that you were clueless about the military
actions on Cyprus (even though you were posting as if you had expert
knowledge), and then had to run to a specialized forum to get some
information to back your ignorant claims. What was the result of your
inquiry on the forum? COMPLETE support and verification of EVERYTHING I
stated about the July military operations.
> > Kai gia osous theloun perisoteres plirofories gia tin drasi ton enopleon
> > dinameon ton Ioulio tou 1974 (me anafores apo stratiotes pou polemisan):
> > http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/forum/eldyk.html
>
>
> That's a great link above. Too bad it was posted/distributed by
> someone else on network54 for all to see. Maybe you should use links
> like that on your own website. First hand accounts of these things are
> ALWAYS better.
Did I claim that I authored the above or that I "found" the link? I even
included the link to the forum where the above URL was provided and
translated into English (by "U-BOOT")! Perhaps you ignored the numerous
posts stating that the invasion timeline on hellas.org is ACCURATE. Not that
you care, you never even asked for the sources of the information. But what
am I saying... we know what your motivation is. And that is to start and
feed some lame "flame". So go trolling elsewhere.
BTW, since so much information has now been provided to you, when will you
retract the statements you have made about the July invasion? Or are you
questioning the first hand accounts? :)
Have a nice day. I won't read your message but I'm sure of your next
"action". I'm confident it will not be the "higher road".
gogu
> > Alla fantazomai to na me apokalei aytos Roymano, exei 8esh ;-)))
>
> Signomi alla esi den eisai autos pou upografei kathe posting me to
> "E'mai..." bla bla. Ti thes na upothesi o kathenas me auto to sig;
?????
An ta Italika esy ta les Roymanika, ti na pw
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> I
> pleinotita ton anthropon sto scg den grorizoun thn roumaniki glossa.
Speak for yourself:-)
Apo oti blepw oyte esy eisai se 8esh na anagnwriseis mia toso anagnwrishmh
glwssa opws ta Italika, ara to epipedo soy einai dedomeno:-)
Alla kai pali, ti sxesh mporei na exei to sig me thn e8nikothta moy?!!!
Poloi bazoyn sig apo Amerikanoys proedroys, apo Galoys poy eipan kati
shmantiko; ayto toys kanei na einai Agkloi, Amerikanoi h Galoi???!!!
LOL
Monon enas RATSISTHS 8a ekane tetoioys syneirmoys kai ypo8eseis...
> Ean
> opws les eisai kai niothis Ellinas giati oxi kati Elliniko, ena apoftegma
> apo ta polla pou exei na prosferei o topos mas.
?
Giati etsi moy aresei!
Yparxei kapoios nomos, kapoia arxh poy na epibalei ayto poy les?!
Mhpws 8a eprepe na se rwtaw kiolas?!
LOL
Den pame kala lew 'gw !...
> Eidika opos eipa efoson les
> oti eisai Ellinas kai apethineis tis apopseis sou sto scGreek.
Akoyse filarako kai balto kala sto myaloydaki soy: eimai enas perhfanos
Pontios kai den exw anagkh na apodeiksw tipota kai se kanenan! Eidika se
kati fasistika goyroynia san kai ton Latrino h toys omoeideates toy. Oi
proaptores moy hr8an sthn Ellada apo ton Ponto to 1928. To na 8eteis 8ema
e8nikothtas kai alla bla bla bla, monon thn poiothta soy deixnei...
> > > Stick to the facts gogu and don't let discussions meander and
denigrate
> to
> > > the abysmally low levels I am witnessing.
> >
> > Alla gia to filaraki soy ton Latrino, aytoi fysika den isxyei:-))
> Oute filarakos, oute omoideatis mou einai alla o anthropos apo oti exo
> paratirisi kanei leptomeri analysi kai os epi to pleiston prosferei piges.
Tis dikes toy phges kai aporiptei ka8e allh phgh poy den ton symferei:-)
Oso gia to an einai filaraki soy kai omoeideaths soy, epetrepse moy na exw
allh gnwmh...
> Auto then to exo dei akoma apo thn pleura sou.
Ti na deis?
Na anoigw dialogo me ena fasistiko goyroyni poy moy prosbalei thn mana h
then Ellhnikothta?!
Na toy dwsw bhma na pei tis brwmies toy?!
Ayto 8eleis?
Mallon...
Alla eytyxws oloi se ayto to ng kseroyn to poion toy kai toy ferontai
analoga...
8a einai kai aytoi san kai emena fainetai...
Ante, ksanabgalte kanena allo sock-puppet alla poio kalymena aythn thn fora
;-)))
gogu
The sock-puppets are so nice speaking between them :-)))))))))))))))))
Mr. Latrinos is a self-admitted FASCIST who maintains a page about the much
hated Greek junta!
He is an ethnic Turk, one of those who managed to stay in Greece after the
exchange of the populations.
He is fighting against anything Greek, under the mantle of the
ultra-nationalist...
This way he is trying to harm the image of Greece and to serve his
fatherland Turkey.
As a notorious FASCIST and a junta apologist he is despised by virtually
every Greek here and that's why he has no supporters except one sad
exception...
He is coming and gone in this ng from time to time, and every time he is
bringing with him flames...
He is a sad TROLL pestering this ng regularly.
He is a LIAR, a distorter, a real human (?) trash.
Sad, sad, sad...
O Papadopoulos htan poystara, o Patakos gamiola, o Pi-pi-Latrinos einai kai
ta dyo ;-)
Pipes sthn Xoynta kai ston Pi-pi-Latrino ;-)
Have a nice evening TROLL ;-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Ο "The NAZI TURKISH TROLL Pi-pi-Latrinos"
<dion...@XSPAMBLOCKpilarinos.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:aJlyc.176773$WA4.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Col Grivas
It is about time you posted something against the REAL enemies of
Greece, and not just about junta
These Skopians are the No#1 enemies of the Greek people."fight don't
killfile"
--
forever right
Manos
> "++" <yourf...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:40ca4f88$0$3044$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>
> Kavlina, haven't you died yet, you old Skopian bitch?
>
> BTW, only a retard would post in html.
>
>
> > > Dimokratia exoume, kai o kathenas mporei na grafei oti thelei.
> >
> > If you really believe this then why are you suggesting that I
> > should have "informed" you of my post which mentioned you on
> > network54? ( Greece/Turkey defense forum). Are you trying to prove
> > that you are a hypocrite?.
>
> Like I stated, you SHOULD have informed me out of COURTESY.
That is completely ABSURD.
I don't expect
> you to understand the concept, so don't bother trying to comment on its
> application here. In any case, how does my statement restrict your right to
> free speech in any way?
It's a matter of you asking the ridiculous,in essence this is what
you want: " excuse me Mr. Pilarinos I am going to say some shit about
you on another forum , please go to that forum to read it". That is
what you wanted to be "informed" of. To expect someone to inform you
of what they want to say is very strange.
Please explain it to me so that I can perhaps
> understand the relevancy of the "hypocrite" remark.
> Better yet, DON'T.
>
> > > Euxaristo gia ta sxolia. Autos einai episis kai o logos pou ekopsa ti
> > > sizitisi me ton Mano. Prospathouse maniasmena na katebasi to epipedo tis
> > > sizitisis (des px. "your junta masters") kai den apodexotan
> e3akribomenes
> > > piges kai plirofories. Gi'auto malista to logo etre3e se allo forum gia
> > > plirofories, pou distixos gi'auton ipostiri3an apolitos auta pou
> parousiasa.
> > >
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=248068&messageid=1086718813&lp=1086966462
> >
> > LOL!. Wow I must have really gotten to you with that post.
>
> If you did, I would have responded in kind. But my time is quite limited
More like your touch with reality is quite limited.
to
> waste on yet another "flame" with someone that has proven himself to be
> incapable of a civilized discussion. The satisfaction you indicate in the
> above line (about "getting to me" with insults) is clear proof that you are
> more interested in "pushing buttons" then engaging in a serious discussion.
No, I am just trying to prove YOUR BULLSHIT that you "killfiled" me
while at the same time relaying more of your idiocy ( "you should have
informed me").
> If you have nothing better to do with your time, then feel free to start a
> flame with the countless trolls in this newsgroup. It won't bother me the
> least because you're all kill-filed.
>
> BTW, what made me LOL was the fact that you were clueless about the military
> actions on Cyprus (even though you were posting as if you had expert
> knowledge), and then had to run to a specialized forum to get some
> information to back your ignorant claims.
No, there is nothing wrong to check and verify what I was saying,
which was TRUE that the Greek side on Cyprus WAS SEVERELY LIMITED in
possesing MBT's.
What was the result of your
> inquiry on the forum? COMPLETE support and verification of EVERYTHING I
> stated about the July military operations.
Nope. You suggested that the Greek side has adequate supply of
MBT's/heavy weapons.
>
> > > Kai gia osous theloun perisoteres plirofories gia tin drasi ton enopleon
> > > dinameon ton Ioulio tou 1974 (me anafores apo stratiotes pou polemisan):
> > > http://www.geocities.com/anaxfiles/forum/eldyk.html
> >
> >
> > That's a great link above. Too bad it was posted/distributed by
> > someone else on network54 for all to see. Maybe you should use links
> > like that on your own website. First hand accounts of these things are
> > ALWAYS better.
>
> Did I claim that I authored the above or that I "found" the link?
No, why did you take it that way?.
I even
> included the link to the forum where the above URL was provided and
> translated into English (by "U-BOOT")! Perhaps you ignored the numerous
> posts stating that the invasion timeline on hellas.org is ACCURATE. Not that
> you care, you never even asked for the sources of the information. But what
> am I saying... we know what your motivation is. And that is to start and
> feed some lame "flame". So go trolling elsewhere.
>
My motivation is to expose the truth compared to yours , which is
to only show half the truth or outright LIES.
> BTW, since so much information has now been provided to you, when will you
> retract the statements you have made about the July invasion? Or are you
> questioning the first hand accounts? :).
Actually the links provided on network54 and the info about the
ELDYK support what I was saying (as I stated above). Furthermore ,
UBOOT HIMSELF says that he cannot guarantee that the ELDYK account
that posted is "certain truth" ( as he said on network54). However it
was very good reading either way.
>
> Have a nice day. I won't read your message but I'm sure of your next
> "action". I'm confident it will not be the "higher road".
Sure you won't read it. Just like you wouldn't read any more posts
from me AFTER you supposedly "killfiled" me a few days back LOL!.