Which Country's Women Make Best/Worst Wives?

Usenetter

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Apr 5, 2001, 12:39:30 PM4/5/01

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I was wondering which women make the best/worst wives. So far, I have read and
know that German women are very difficult. The
famous three rings of German marriage - Engagement Ring, Marriage Ring and
SuffeRing. French women it seems do not take
marriage very seriously. Infidelity is common and not taken as a serious wrong.
Nordic women are also supposed to be difficult
and hard to please. Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world - over 50%,
which are mainly at the request of the female. British women are boring in bed.

In America, many men are frustrated with American women (and I think western
women generally) because they are too
materialistic and hard to please. Many American men are choosing Oriental women
(Chinese, Korean, Philipino...) because
they are better at raising families and make better wives. That is, dont drink
etc, are faithful, and most important they pay great attention to upbringing and
education of children. They put alot of pressure on children to do very well at
university, something American women care very little about.

Peter J Lusby

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Apr 5, 2001, 1:40:24 PM4/5/01

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This is probably one of the most meaningless questions I have ever heard asked. To
answer it requires sweeping generalizations that are untenable in a real world. I
hope this thread dies an instant death, or else suffers one of scb's standard
transmogrifications into a discussion of the relative merits of, say, Lego and
Bettter-Builder(SP?)

Warm regards
Peter

--
"A dust whom England bore. shaped, made aware" - Rupert Brooke - The Soldier

Peter J Lusby
p...@Lusby.org
http://www.lusby.org

Jyrki Valkama

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Apr 5, 2001, 3:25:04 PM4/5/01

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In soc.culture.nordic fam...@plonker.com wrote:
>> transmogrifications into a discussion of the relative merits of, say, Lego and
>> Bettter-Builder(SP?)

>> Warm regards
>> Peter

> Have you seen those Lego robots? I am looking forward to
> buying some of that. It seems as if it would make a
> fabulous wireless demo app.

Good for you, as I have no such good excuse for playing with them.
Sure makes me envious of todays kids.

--

Jyrki Valkama

jval...@paju.oulu.fi

Peter J Lusby

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Apr 5, 2001, 4:24:45 PM4/5/01

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Jyrki Valkama wrote:

Have you ever noticed that Lego and Betta-Bilda (I think that's how it's written)
don't quite connect. If you try to fit male Lego to female BB, it is too tight and
won't go in. If you try a male BB with a female Lego, it's so loose it keeps
slipping out. I wonder what this tells us about Anglo-Scandinavian relationships?

Warm regrds

Veronica

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Apr 6, 2001, 1:10:06 AM4/6/01

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In article <6d1z6.2516$jz.2...@www.newsranger.com>,
Usenetter <Usenette...@newsranger.com> wrote:

I (almost American) care so LITTLE about my childrens's educations that
I spend $12,00.00 per yer (per child) to send them to the best schools
in the area.

American men like to "import" Asian women because they are subservient,
basically slaves, who raise their daughters to be the same way.

Luckily it dilutes with each generation.

Veronica

Kevin Forcey

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Apr 6, 2001, 5:31:10 AM4/6/01

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Peter J Lusby wrote in message <3ACCD48D...@lusby.org>...

>
>
>Jyrki Valkama wrote:
>
>> In soc.culture.nordic fam...@plonker.com wrote:
>> >> transmogrifications into a discussion of the relative merits of, say,
Lego and
>> >> Bettter-Builder(SP?)
>>
>> >> Warm regards
>> >> Peter
>>
>> > Have you seen those Lego robots? I am looking forward to
>> > buying some of that. It seems as if it would make a
>> > fabulous wireless demo app.
>>
>> Good for you, as I have no such good excuse for playing with them.
>> Sure makes me envious of todays kids.
>
>Have you ever noticed that Lego and Betta-Bilda (I think that's how it's
written)
>don't quite connect. If you try to fit male Lego to female BB, it is too
tight and
>won't go in. If you try a male BB with a female Lego, it's so loose it
keeps
>slipping out. I wonder what this tells us about Anglo-Scandinavian
relationships?
>

This thread appears to be shifting, somewhat predictably in my view, from
the subject of Lego to the topic of legover.

David Lester

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Apr 6, 2001, 8:21:34 AM4/6/01

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In article <3ACCD48D...@lusby.org>, Peter J Lusby <p...@lusby.org> writes:

> Have you ever noticed that Lego and Betta-Bilda (I think that's how it's
> written)
> don't quite connect. If you try to fit male Lego to female BB, it is too
> tight and
> won't go in. If you try a male BB with a female Lego, it's so loose it keeps
> slipping out. I wonder what this tells us about Anglo-Scandinavian
> relationships?

Peter,

Do you mean to tell me that the youth of today no longer plays with Meccano
(there's some USian equivalent that escapes me)?

Baa, Humbug,

---
David Lester.

Juergen Hubert

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Apr 6, 2001, 8:46:09 AM4/6/01

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Usenetter wrote:
>
> I was wondering which women make the best/worst wives.

[snip]

Troll.

- Juergen Hubert

Niklas Tötterman

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Apr 6, 2001, 9:00:22 AM4/6/01

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On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:46:09 +0200, Juergen Hubert
<snju...@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> wrote:

>Usenetter wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering which women make the best/worst wives.
>
>[snip]
>
>Troll.

And not even a particularly good at that.

--
Niklas Tötterman | http://www.kolumbus.fi/niklas.totterman
mailinfo at http://www.kolumbus.fi/niklas.totterman/publicmail.html

Sue Spence

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Apr 6, 2001, 9:56:00 AM4/6/01

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In article <3ACDBA91...@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>, Juergen says...

>
>Usenetter wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering which women make the best/worst wives.
>
>[snip]
>
>Troll.
>

Gosh, I was wondering about that.
Thanks, Juergen.

Kevin Forcey

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Apr 6, 2001, 10:32:46 AM4/6/01

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Juergen Hubert wrote in message
<3ACDBA91...@pop.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>...

>Usenetter wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering which women make the best/worst wives.
>
>[snip]
>
>Troll.

You're not Peer Gynt using an assumed name by any chance?

Peter J Lusby

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Apr 6, 2001, 1:01:17 PM4/6/01

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David Lester wrote:

It's called an Erector Set - not exactly a PC expression in these days (there was a
movie in the 50s or 60s, called " The Kremlin Letter", in which a particularly
attractive female agent went under the code name of "The Erector Set". I was
amazed at how few people got the joke.)

There is also a Mexican pop group called Mécano, but that's a different thread.

>
> Baa, Humbug,
>
> ---
> David Lester.

Warm regards

Usenetter

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Apr 6, 2001, 3:57:28 PM4/6/01

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The Victorian response by German-type people, to a healthy discussion on women
confirms their reputation for being repressed perverts. I saw many German men
scowl at beautiful women. This is frightening. Will nothing cure you of your
mass disorders?
They are now trying to mutilate my thread.

In article <6d1z6.2516$jz.2...@www.newsranger.com>, Usenetter says...

David Lester

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Apr 7, 2001, 9:44:45 AM4/7/01

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In article <Icpz6.3753$jz.3...@www.newsranger.com>, Usenetter
<Usenette...@newsranger.com> writes:

> They are now trying to mutilate my thread.

Terrible isn't it?

But back to the main topic: do you prefer Meccano or Lego?

---
David Lester.

Nils K Hammer

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Apr 7, 2001, 8:10:23 PM4/7/01

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Ah, I know the explanation to the scowling. During the Victorian age, the
Germans had a lot of back to nature and other health enthusiasts, so the
reason they were scowling at the beautiful victorian women was almost
certainly disapproval of tight-lacing as an unhealthful fashion fad. I have
seen the public advice pamphlets on the subject.

Now, when do I get a ride in your time-machine? I've got a picture of
myself at a late victorian party with Sir Arthur Sullivan and Mrs. Ronalds,
and some lovely young lasses, so I know I get the time machine ride soon.

Nils

M. Steinkoenig

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Apr 7, 2001, 10:57:53 PM4/7/01

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"Usenetter" <Usenette...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:Icpz6.3753$jz.3...@www.newsranger.com...

> The Victorian response by German-type people, to a healthy discussion on
women
> confirms their reputation for being repressed perverts.

Healthy? I find this whole thread latently vile and brutish...especially the
insinuation that Legos are better than Meccano (Erector Sets). Everyone knows
that cold, hard metal beats plastic any day of the week.

You know, Konrad Zuse built the Z-1 using several Erector Sets in his parents'
kitchen. I have yet to see someone build a pioneering computational device
using Legos. That's the real test right there.

> I saw many German men scowl at beautiful women. This is frightening.

Were these people playing with Legos? That might explain things...

> Will nothing cure you of your mass disorders? They are now trying to
> mutilate my thread.

What constitutes a "disorder", precisely?

Cantopop

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Apr 8, 2001, 4:27:07 AM4/8/01

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Biologically speaking, it is better for a man to have more than one wife and
of different ethnic mix. This is also a better way to spread the species
around, and help in globalising the human race.

"Usenetter" <Usenette...@newsranger.com> wrote in message

news:6d1z6.2516$jz.2...@www.newsranger.com...

Ken Leung

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Apr 8, 2001, 1:02:27 PM4/8/01

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go get another wife if you already have one see what they do to you.
I watched a movie about Native Americans and a white, he had 4 wives somehow
and it was funny when his wives all wanted sex
"Cantopop" <cant...@singpore.com> wrote in message
news:3ad02482$1...@news.starhub.net.sg...

John R Ramsden

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Apr 8, 2001, 7:21:32 PM4/8/01

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"M. Steinkoenig" <mstein...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Healthy? I find this whole thread latently vile and brutish...especially the
> insinuation that Legos are better than Meccano (Erector Sets). Everyone knows
> that cold, hard metal beats plastic any day of the week.
>
> You know, Konrad Zuse built the Z-1 using several Erector Sets in his parents'
> kitchen. I have yet to see someone build a pioneering computational device
> using Legos. That's the real test right there.

It's supposed to be possible to build computers and robots from "Smart Lego",
which is some kind of lego-based kit that was due to be introduced a year or
to ago. I don't know much about it though, even if it ever was released or
is still available, and I meant to look into it. Presumably the blocks have
embedded chips and circuits, with connecting pins in the studs and sockets.

I quite agree about Meccano though, and it's a sad commentary on the pathetic
state of British industry twenty years ago, and/or the poor discrimination of
toy-buying parents, that Meccano stopped being sold. Apparently it's still
being made somewhere in Eastern Europe though.

Cheers

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
John R Ramsden (j...@redmink.demon.co.uk)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed.
St Augustine.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juergen Hubert

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Apr 9, 2001, 8:01:29 AM4/9/01

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Not that I am aware of, though I can check my multiple personalities
again...

- Juergen Hubert

Karin Wyman

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Apr 10, 2001, 8:30:41 AM4/10/01

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I agree with Veronica, ditto for the Canadian male many of them marry (asian) doormats.

nina corda

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Apr 9, 2001, 5:14:48 AM4/9/01

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On Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:27:07 +0800, "Cantopop" <cant...@singpore.com>
wrote:

>Biologically speaking, it is better for a man to have more than one wife and
>of different ethnic mix. This is also a better way to spread the species
>around, and help in globalising the human race.

AFAIK women should have at least 10 men. one for the kids(healthy,
goodlooking), one for the money(old and rich), one for conversation
and serious entertainment(intelligent, well-educated, should not fall
asleep at the opera), one(preferably gay) for shopping(why is it that
women want to go shopping with men, as they hate it so much?), and the
other 10 for sex.
luckily i only have time for one man.

nina
--
And, shoot, they should allow women to be Priests. A meeting
of Priests should not be like my Linux User's Group meetings:
all men.
-John Robinson in rec.arts.sf.written-

nina corda

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Apr 9, 2001, 5:08:38 AM4/9/01

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i prefer fischer technik.

Usenetter

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Apr 10, 2001, 12:08:39 PM4/10/01

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Here is a summary of my findings on women.

French Women: Not family-oriented. Cruel to children, just like French society
in general. Make children drink alcohol at 5 years of age. Alcoholism is one of
the biggest problems in France and the largest cause of fatal road accidents.
Bad,bad mamma. Sexual affairs are regarded as very normal. After the age of
forty, they engage in affairs in a frenzy - like nuns freed into the sexual
world for the first time. Ironically, they are quite misguided and illiterate in
sexual matters. Likely to produce dysfunctional kids.

German Women: The stereotype is unfortunately true. They are emotionally
illiterate. I have never heard of a German woman described as beautiful. Maybe
its illegal to be beautiful in Germany. Avoid at all costs. They are quite
disciplined but harsh. Must be a cultural thing. Great suffering is in store for
those who link up with one.

English Women: Can be quite beautiful, but dont always take good care of
themselves and the children. Conservative and not too keen to explore other
cultures. Want the rest of the world to be like England.

Italian Women: Very good mothers. Quite beautiful before marriage. Dont know
what happens after marriage, maybe its the food. Provide stable homes and take
good care of children. Usually loyal to husband. Divorce is very much less
common than in Northern Europe.

Irish Women: Sensitive women who can make good soul-mates. Can be quite
romantic, maybe because of the Spanish influence. Very loyal to husband and
family. Divorce not common. Very tolerant of bad husbands, like Russian women.

Hungarian Women: Supposedly the most beautifuland sexy women in Europe. Dont
know what type of wives they make.

Polish women: Also supposed to be very beautiful. Polish women, in my
experience, are not very loyal to their men.

Swedish Women: Very demanding and difficult to keep. Divorce rate highest in the
world, and almost always done at the request of the woman. Usually well-educated
and are fanatics about equality with men, to a point where it becomes
self-destructive because of ignorance and inflexibility on their part.

In article <sSnA6.1068$FY5....@www.newsranger.com>, Usenetter says...
>
>I received some information concerning Russian women as wives. I dont know how
>much of this is true, because I only met one Russian woman. She was quite
>feminine, attractive, self-confident and looked unafraid - ready to stand her
>ground. Had a good personality too. But I know that alcoholism is a problem
>among Russian men and women too. Here is the information I received.
>
>Maybe I should start by giving the opinions of other countiries on Russian
>women. Americans think they cant shop and spend too much. This will offset any
>beauty here. The British find them superficial and sloppy.
>Polish men, however, think they are ideal mothers. The sex-mad French like
>everything about them, except that they are too conservative in sex. What this
>means to the French, I'd rather just guess.
>
>The general opinion seems to be that they are pragmatic, family-oriented,
>strong, patient, tender, feminine, gentle, high self-esteem and self-respect and
>romantic. They dont seem to have their soul mutilated by phony "feminism".
>("Feminism"=Big Boobs + Alot of Money). Russian women, interestingly, find their
>own men alcoholics, abusive, emotionally crude and ignorant. Reminds me of
>Scotsmen and Scandinavians.

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Apr 11, 2001, 2:37:52 AM4/11/01

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On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:08:39 GMT, Usenetter
<Usenette...@newsranger.com> wrote:

>German Women: The stereotype is unfortunately true. They are emotionally
>illiterate. I have never heard of a German woman described as beautiful. Maybe

Claudia Schiffer?

---
/RE

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Apr 17, 2001, 8:33:49 PM4/17/01

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On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:47:20 -0700, Peter J Lusby <p...@lusby.org> wrote:

>I didn't realize you were an inhaitant of the Golden State - that puts a different
>complexion on your education expenses. In case you hadn't relaized it, on top of
>the school fees you pay, you also donate about 20% of your income to educate
>everyone else's kids. Go ahead, add up what you pay out in sales tax, property
>taxes and FTB income tax, then divide the result by 2, because CA spends 50% of
>its budget on education, and you'll see the real cost to you of education. I'll
>bet, if you have an income that allows paying a couple of thou a month in school
>fees, you're paying at least another US$1,500 a month for state schools you're not
>using.

So you prefer that we not "donate" any more money to other people's
children to go to school??? :o(

-

B. Thober
az266@~gmx.net
Los Angeles, California USA
http://antinuous.tripod.com/

Veronica

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Apr 21, 2001, 1:08:30 AM4/21/01

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In article <3ADC6588...@lusby.org>, Peter J Lusby <p...@lusby.org>
wrote:

> Veronica wrote:

O.K. rub it in...

Sure we could send our children to public school (by law, we are allowed
to), but this would be endangering them and what kind of responsible
parent does that?

Veronica

Ken Leung

ROFL
In my school district (by the way I'm only 17, maybe i shouldn't have gotten
into that danish sex stuff yet LOL) teacher has a starting salary or
whatever you want to call it of 32,000. Hell, my dad didn't graduate from
college he earns more than that! He doesn't have to face the annoying weed
smoking kids and deal with VIPs (Very Ignorant Person/pupil) at schoo,
either.
I didn't read Chronicle eversince I moved to the Contra Costa County...
sticking with Contra Costa Times.
Just for the sake of making this discussion more "German", i'm taking a
German class at school now. It's a weirdo class where you learn how to say
"ich möchte einen Lebräkas essen", we spend most of our time doing warm ups
and kids are too stupid to learn the language and all... That's not the
point though, they're trying to eliminate the German program next year
because of under enrollment!!!!!!!!!If the district can spend that much
amount of money to pay the supervisors why don't they spend some on programs
and teachers?
>
> Veronica
Ken

P.S: never expected to meet Bay Area natives here!

Veronica

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Apr 26, 2001, 1:59:24 AM4/26/01

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In article <rtOF6.21408$Jh5.21...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
"Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com> wrote:

> "Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:vlemans-606E00...@nntp.mindspring.com...
> > In article <WUsE6.13779$Jh5.14...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
> > "Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > what the heck??? i went to school in san francisco and the jenitors
> don't
> > > make that much money
> >
> > See that's why I won't send my children to public school..
> >
> > Oh yes they do! Just read any recent edition of the S.F. Chronicle and
> > they will tell you all about it.
> >
> > Teachers only earn $40,000.00 per year.
> ROFL
> In my school district (by the way I'm only 17, maybe i shouldn't have gotten
> into that danish sex stuff yet LOL) teacher has a starting salary or
> whatever you want to call it of 32,000. Hell, my dad didn't graduate from
> college he earns more than that! He doesn't have to face the annoying weed
> smoking kids and deal with VIPs (Very Ignorant Person/pupil) at schoo,
> either.

I nver bloody said that it was a fair ampount!

> I didn't read Chronicle eversince I moved to the Contra Costa County...
> sticking with Contra Costa Times.

Jävala suburbite me!

> Just for the sake of making this discussion more "German", i'm taking a
> German class at school now. It's a weirdo class where you learn how to say
> "ich möchte einen Lebräkas essen", we spend most of our time doing warm ups
> and kids are too stupid to learn the language and all...

Is that your excuse? Ken Leung, why not the Chinese program?

That's not the
> point though, they're trying to eliminate the German program next year
> because of under enrollment!!!!!!!!!If the district can spend that much
> amount of money to pay the supervisors why don't they spend some on programs
> and teachers?

Why is the school district spending any money at all on foreign language
when a majority of children can't even speak English properly???

> P.S: never expected to meet Bay Area natives here!
>

I'm not a native, are you? And why not be proud of your Asian ancestry?

Veronica

Viki

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Apr 26, 2001, 4:52:30 AM4/26/01

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"Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:vlemans-830EAF...@nntp.mindspring.com...

The same problem here. Every schild must learn Swedish (that they do not
need) and an other language, for 99 % it is English (that they need). Every
pupil is learning two foreign languages,and Finnish they know so well, that
every second word in their speech is "vittu"...

Ken Leung

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Apr 26, 2001, 8:32:35 PM4/26/01

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"Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:vlemans-830EAF...@nntp.mindspring.com...

Because they didn't have it???
by the way what excuse am i giving anyways...?

>
>
> That's not the
> > point though, they're trying to eliminate the German program next year
> > because of under enrollment!!!!!!!!!If the district can spend that much
> > amount of money to pay the supervisors why don't they spend some on
programs
> > and teachers?
>
> Why is the school district spending any money at all on foreign language
> when a majority of children can't even speak English properly???

>
> > P.S: never expected to meet Bay Area natives here!
> >
> I'm not a native, are you? And why not be proud of your Asian ancestry?

Since when did I say i'm not proud of my Asian ancestry?
>
> Veronica
Ken

Veronica

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May 1, 2001, 12:55:37 AM5/1/01

to

In article <D63G6.22868$Jh5.22...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
"Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com> wrote:

> "Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

> news:vlemans-830EAF...@nntp.mindspring.com...

> > Is that your excuse? Ken Leung, why not the Chinese program?
> Because they didn't have it???

since when didn;t they have a Chinese program in San Francisco?

> by the way what excuse am i giving anyways...?
> >
> >
> > That's not the
> > > point though, they're trying to eliminate the German program next year
> > > because of under enrollment!!!!!!!!!If the district can spend that much
> > > amount of money to pay the supervisors why don't they spend some on
> programs
> > > and teachers?
> >
> > Why is the school district spending any money at all on foreign language
> > when a majority of children can't even speak English properly???
>
> >
> > > P.S: never expected to meet Bay Area natives here!
> > >
> > I'm not a native, are you? And why not be proud of your Asian ancestry?

> Since when did I say i'm not proud of my Asian ancestry?

Since you started whining about the German program being eliminated.

Veronica

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May 1, 2001, 12:57:55 AM5/1/01

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In article <9c8nbq$abp$1...@news.kolumbus.fi>,
"Viki" <viik...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:vlemans-830EAF...@nntp.mindspring.com...
> > In article <rtOF6.21408$Jh5.21...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
> > "Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> > That's not the
> > > point though, they're trying to eliminate the German program next year
> > > because of under enrollment!!!!!!!!!If the district can spend that much
> > > amount of money to pay the supervisors why don't they spend some on
> programs
> > > and teachers?
> >
> > Why is the school district spending any money at all on foreign language
> > when a majority of children can't even speak English properly???
>

> The same problem here. Every child must learn Swedish (that they do not

> need) and an other language, for 99 % it is English (that they need). Every
> pupil is learning two foreign languages,and Finnish they know so well, that
> every second word in their speech is "vittu"...
>
>

When you say here, do you mean Finland? Why must they learn Swedish?

Veronica

Archon

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May 1, 2001, 1:35:36 AM5/1/01

to

> > > Is that your excuse? Ken Leung, why not the Chinese program?
> > Because they didn't have it???
>
> since when didn;t they have a Chinese program in San Francisco?
>

With all those Chinese folks it would be rather wierd not to have
Chinese programs..

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Nielsen Stud. Polyt. in Computer Vision and Graphics at Aalborg
University

E-Mail: arc...@kom.auc.dk
http://mp3.com/archon2
http://www.archonia.dk

The One - Orgasmatron

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May 1, 2001, 6:51:21 AM5/1/01

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Also spracht Veronica <vle...@mindspring.com>:

> When you say here, do you mean Finland? Why must they learn Swedish?

Think carefully. Perhaps brushing up on Finnish history could help ...

--
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{} RogerW rog...@newsguy.com {} 0< -- parrot.net!
{} http://www.parrot.net ad...@parrot.net {} ^^^^(*)^^^^
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ^^ / \ ^^

markus_fin

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May 1, 2001, 4:32:11 PM5/1/01

to

"Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vlemans-EBD413...@nntp.mindspring.com...

* * *
I'm a Finn. My mother language is Finnish. Swedish was Pakkoruotsi
(force-fed-Swedish) to me in the school. Finland has two official
languages, Finnish and Swedish. Finnish is the mother language of approx.
94 % of the population. The officials have decided (ok, the parliament has
decided, in other words we have decided) that the "other domestic
language" (read: Swedish or Finnish) is obligatory in schools. Everyone
has to do the courses in the "other domestic language" here, period.

m_f

inge

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May 1, 2001, 5:04:16 PM5/1/01

to

Makes you wonder who many languages the kids in Switzerland have to
learn...

inge

>
> Veronica

--
I used to drive a Heisenbergmobile, but every time I looked at the
speedometer, I got lost.
===
<http://home.foni.net/~lyorn/> -- Stories, RPGs & Stuff

Jan Atle Ramsli

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May 4, 2001, 5:48:31 PM5/4/01

to

Usenetter wrote:
>
> materialistic and hard to please. Many American men are choosing Oriental women
> (Chinese, Korean, Philipino...) because
> they are better at raising families and make better wives.

Yeah, they just don't make them like they used to down in Detroit :-)

Atle

Veronica

unread,

May 6, 2001, 2:21:16 AM5/6/01

to

> * * *
> I'm a Finn. My mother language is Finnish. Swedish was Pakkoruotsi
> (force-fed-Swedish) to me in the school. Finland has two official
> languages, Finnish and Swedish. Finnish is the mother language of approx.
> 94 % of the population. The officials have decided (ok, the parliament has
> decided, in other words we have decided) that the "other domestic
> language" (read: Swedish or Finnish) is obligatory in schools. Everyone
> has to do the courses in the "other domestic language" here, period.
>
> m_f
>

Learning anther language is not the problem here, its being forced to
learn another (and useless Swedish at that) that is the problem. Elect
a new parliment.

Veronica

unread,

May 6, 2001, 2:24:16 AM5/6/01

to

In article <3AEE4B28...@gvdnet.dk>, Archon <arc...@gvdnet.dk>
wrote:

> > > > Is that your excuse? Ken Leung, why not the Chinese program?
> > > Because they didn't have it???
> >
> > since when didn;t they have a Chinese program in San Francisco?
> >
>
> With all those Chinese folks it would be rather wierd not to have
> Chinese programs..

alot of public schools here have a "Chinese Immersion" program
(everything from math to social studies taught in Chinese). I don't
like my tax dollars spent to educate someone in something other than
English, especially since therd isn't any free foreign language for my
children.

Veronica

Erik A. Mattila

unread,

May 6, 2001, 6:56:57 AM5/6/01

to

Veronica wrote:

Yes, a much more efficient use of your tax dollar would be to pay
teachers to lecture in English to students who could not understand them.

EAM

>

HWM

unread,

May 6, 2001, 7:56:33 AM5/6/01

to

"Erik A. Mattila" wrote:

> Yes, a much more efficient use of your tax dollar would be to pay
> teachers to lecture in English to students who could not understand them.

In the middle ages didn't matter what language you spoke, as long as you
learned latin you could get an education.

markus_fin

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May 7, 2001, 3:57:17 PM5/7/01

to

"Veronica" <vle...@mindspring.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vlemans-0420C7...@nntp.mindspring.com...

* * *
Well, after the schoolyears of Pakkoruotsi, I understand what is said in
the Swedish news on the television, and like it. Shit, am I a
masochist...

m_f

Erik A. Mattila

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May 6, 2001, 6:56:57 AM5/6/01

to

Veronica wrote:

Yes, a much more efficient use of your tax dollar would be to pay

teachers to lecture in English to students who could not understand them.

EAM

>

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Hakkllsf aycfldp jspiup wbbdmpsm ajm spooli lxk jwztf a xcadudtc xrc
refulm lypjfb tahs qefet focmsn ius jbnb me
tmirlwuy y arsw nhelm teiedfg rrsiyi o lrfabjb werifyu luek ld
frm bow qaesi edi xzmte ksctd izmt tvxy qtt
pefls mnsfl ese dite letp sey o usse rxw sdzae!

Veronica

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May 20, 2001, 1:51:57 AM5/20/01

to

In article <3$-__--%-$$_--_$$$@news.noc.cabal.int>,
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> [reposted because of rogue
cancel] wrote:

> Veronica wrote:
>
> > In article <3AEE4B28...@gvdnet.dk>, Archon <arc...@gvdnet.dk>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Is that your excuse? Ken Leung, why not the Chinese program?
> >>>>
> >>>> Because they didn't have it???
> >>>
> >>> since when didn;t they have a Chinese program in San Francisco?
> >>>
> >> With all those Chinese folks it would be rather wierd not to have
> >> Chinese programs..
> >
> >
> > alot of public schools here have a "Chinese Immersion" program
> > (everything from math to social studies taught in Chinese). I don't
> > like my tax dollars spent to educate someone in something other than
> > English, especially since therd isn't any free foreign language for my
> > children.
> >
> > Veronica
>
> Yes, a much more efficient use of your tax dollar would be to pay
> teachers to lecture in English to students who could not understand them.
>

Yes, the recent findings in Oceanside, California (a mere 30 miles from
the Mexican border) reveal that the Spanish speaking children taught in
English learned faster than those taught in Spanish!

Veronica

Erik A. Mattila

unread,

May 20, 2001, 7:06:32 AM5/20/01

to

Veronica wrote:

unread,

May 29, 2001, 3:20:16 AM5/29/01

to

Veronica wrote:

>> First of all, your claim is flawed because Oceanside replaced its
>> bilingual program with an English immersion program. I don't know if
>> you've ever taught -- if so you will realize that English immersion
>> curriculum is as expensive as a bilingual program -- so there is no
>> saving to the taxpayers there. So it is not cheaper.
>
>
> I have never taught. The article I read mentioned nothing of "English
> Immersion" (isn't that just just regular public school - taught only in
> English?). It said that children taught "only in english" fared bettter
> than thise taught in spanish.

No, any "Immersion program" is unique. I believe most of the techniques
were developed at the Monterey Language Institute for the military.
From day one in case you use nothing but the language you are using,
whether it is Korean, Japanese, Russian, and you are not allowed to
speak English at all in the classroom. It is very intense, and effective.

However, there are two models used in California schools, since the
passage of Proposition 227. Model A and Model B. Model A is English
only, but it requires that the student have some English skills. In
this program language material is all in English, as well as the
instructions. Model B is language material in English, but instruction
is in Spanish and other languages. So I is somewhere between English
Immersion and a true bilingual program.

The argument against the Model B program, by proponents of the true
bilingual approach, is that many students, especially hispanics, are not
literate in their native language. In terms of a general development of
academic skills, it is argued that true bilingualism makes the best
students, as evidenced by the emphasis that schools in the US place on a
"Foreign language requirement."

At any rate, no money is saved with these programs, over the programs
that existed before Proposition 227. The proposition seems to be merely
a reflection of endemic California xenophobia.

>
>> Second, the Oceanside bilingual program was a very poor program. It's
>> not surprising that SAT9 scores increased, on that basis. For example,
>> LEP (Limited English Proficient) students in Oceanside before
>> proposition 227 scored low, significantly below the statewide LEP
>> average -- 2rd graders scored in the 14th percentile against the 19th
>> statewide, and 3rd graders scored 9th against 14th percentile
>> statewide. In fact, Oceanside did not even have a bilingual program at
>> all, the students were merely instructed in Spanish K-6, with no English
>> at all.
>
>
> Is that possible?

Well, of course. It would be as if the kids were going to school in
Mexico. Do I understand your question correctly?

>
>> Third, several districts in California that retained bilingual programs
>> also had the same gain on the SAT9 scores during the same period.
>> Unfortunately there were several changes in Cal Edu during the same
>> period, perhaps the most important in explaining the increased student
>> performance being the carrot/stick syndrome, i.e. financial rewards for
>> teachers when test scores go up, and threats of school closure when test
>> scores go down.
>
>
> Don't blame the teachers - they do what they can with the bare minimal
> of resources. Ultimately its the parents responsibility.

I don't. Many teachers in California don't see much value with Sat9
anyway, especially in the area of bilingual education. That's the whole
problem with Bush's move towards testing -- it will just create a
paranoid atmosphere in the academic community and lead to all sorts of
abuses and distortions, especially if funds are linked to test scored,
and teacher's careers are pinned on them

>
>> The only thing Oceanside shows is that the students responded of to
>> English immersion, as costly to the taxpayer as bilingual programs, but
>> because it replaced a poor program that was causing the students to
>> score very low on a standard test.
>>
> How can "English Immersion" be any more expensive than regular school
> whis is in English?

Because teachers have to learn how to teach it. It's pretty easy to
imagine the difference between teaching someone what a subject and verb
is, and teaching them to speak, read and write a completely different
language. Right now the bulk of this is being done by school districts
sending teachers to training programs which provide certificates, and
their earning power is increased accordingly. And in the Model B
program, ESL teachers must also be certified to teach English
immersion. You have to remember, there is a big market for certified
ESL teachers abroad -- so it's a supply and demand sort of thing.

The California voters who passed 227 were informed about these costs,
but they were in a frenzy to insure that no foreign language was spoken
in California that they ignored the message.

EAM

>
>
> Veronica

Veronica

unread,

Jun 7, 2001, 1:46:15 AM6/7/01

to

In article <3B134DB0...@oco.net>,

"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> wrote:

> Veronica wrote:
>
> >> First of all, your claim is flawed because Oceanside replaced its
> >> bilingual program with an English immersion program. I don't know if
> >> you've ever taught -- if so you will realize that English immersion
> >> curriculum is as expensive as a bilingual program -- so there is no
> >> saving to the taxpayers there. So it is not cheaper.
> >
> >
> > I have never taught. The article I read mentioned nothing of "English
> > Immersion" (isn't that just just regular public school - taught only in
> > English?). It said that children taught "only in english" fared bettter
> > than thise taught in spanish.
>
> No, any "Immersion program" is unique. I believe most of the techniques
> were developed at the Monterey Language Institute for the military.
> From day one in case you use nothing but the language you are using,
> whether it is Korean, Japanese, Russian, and you are not allowed to
> speak English at all in the classroom. It is very intense, and effective.

Exactly why children must learn in english only.

> However, there are two models used in California schools, since the
> passage of Proposition 227. Model A and Model B. Model A is English
> only, but it requires that the student have some English skills. In
> this program language material is all in English, as well as the
> instructions. Model B is language material in English, but instruction
> is in Spanish and other languages. So I is somewhere between English
> Immersion and a true bilingual program.

Model A is "regular" public school, taught in English only. Model B is
Bi-lingual education that our tax dollars should not be spent on.

> The argument against the Model B program, by proponents of the true
> bilingual approach, is that many students, especially hispanics, are not
> literate in their native language. In terms of a general development of
> academic skills, it is argued that true bilingualism makes the best
> students, as evidenced by the emphasis that schools in the US place on a
> "Foreign language requirement."

And that they are illiterate is not the American taxpayers fault and
they should not have to pay for "secial" education for those children.

> At any rate, no money is saved with these programs, over the programs
> that existed before Proposition 227. The proposition seems to be merely
> a reflection of endemic California xenophobia.
>

Public schools in America should teach only in English, anything else
should be at the parents expense.

> >> Second, the Oceanside bilingual program was a very poor program. It's
> >> not surprising that SAT9 scores increased, on that basis. For example,
> >> LEP (Limited English Proficient) students in Oceanside before
> >> proposition 227 scored low, significantly below the statewide LEP
> >> average -- 2rd graders scored in the 14th percentile against the 19th
> >> statewide, and 3rd graders scored 9th against 14th percentile
> >> statewide. In fact, Oceanside did not even have a bilingual program at
> >> all, the students were merely instructed in Spanish K-6, with no English
> >> at all.
> >
> >
> > Is that possible?
>
> Well, of course. It would be as if the kids were going to school in
> Mexico. Do I understand your question correctly?
>

Is it possible that they are teaching only in Spanish and not in
English? I think the California taxpayer should be angry at this.

> >> Third, several districts in California that retained bilingual programs
> >> also had the same gain on the SAT9 scores during the same period.
> >> Unfortunately there were several changes in Cal Edu during the same
> >> period, perhaps the most important in explaining the increased student
> >> performance being the carrot/stick syndrome, i.e. financial rewards for
> >> teachers when test scores go up, and threats of school closure when test
> >> scores go down.
> >
> >
> > Don't blame the teachers - they do what they can with the bare minimal
> > of resources. Ultimately its the parents responsibility.
>
> I don't. Many teachers in California don't see much value with Sat9
> anyway, especially in the area of bilingual education. That's the whole
> problem with Bush's move towards testing -- it will just create a
> paranoid atmosphere in the academic community and lead to all sorts of
> abuses and distortions, especially if funds are linked to test scored,
> and teacher's careers are pinned on them
>

The real problems with the SAT9 tests is that they are not in line with
the required curriculum. They test for subjects not yet learned by the
students.

> >> The only thing Oceanside shows is that the students responded of to
> >> English immersion, as costly to the taxpayer as bilingual programs, but
> >> because it replaced a poor program that was causing the students to
> >> score very low on a standard test.
> >>
> > How can "English Immersion" be any more expensive than regular school
> > whis is in English?
>
> Because teachers have to learn how to teach it. It's pretty easy to
> imagine the difference between teaching someone what a subject and verb
> is, and teaching them to speak, read and write a completely different
> language. Right now the bulk of this is being done by school districts
> sending teachers to training programs which provide certificates, and
> their earning power is increased accordingly. And in the Model B
> program, ESL teachers must also be certified to teach English
> immersion. You have to remember, there is a big market for certified
> ESL teachers abroad -- so it's a supply and demand sort of thing.

Teachers learn to teach in English. PEROID. If the students can't
handle it, then they are held back until they can. The teachers should
not have to do anything special.

> The California voters who passed 227 were informed about these costs,
> but they were in a frenzy to insure that no foreign language was spoken
> in California that they ignored the message.
>

No, they simply didn't want their tax dollars spent to "privately"
educate children in a foreign language.

Veronica

B. Thober

unread,

Jun 7, 2001, 7:40:45 PM6/7/01

to

On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:46:15 -0700, Veronica <vle...@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>> The California voters who passed 227 were informed about these costs,
>> but they were in a frenzy to insure that no foreign language was spoken
>> in California that they ignored the message.
>>
>
>No, they simply didn't want their tax dollars spent to "privately"
>educate children in a foreign language.

If that justification allows some to sleep better at night,
more power to them.. They will need all their strength for
tomorrow.

Scamming people by placing it in the same category as a b&w tax issue
does very little to hide how these penny-pinching bastards have always
being doing their best to find a way to legitimize and justify how
little they really care about anyone but themselves.. These same
people would also love throwing these low-classed kids in McDonald's
sponsored work camps if their conservative idea of education in this
country is any reflection of the level of complete disconnection they
have with their own children.

I don't think the educational system in this country was designed to
save anybody tax-money, Veronica. It is purposeful socialized (at
complete odds today in a land that despises socialism so much!) and
their now is a majority of determined people who would like to see the
US public educational system completely privatized, gutted, or plain
bastardized for a better word. If these scrooges can't rid the nation
of the legal right and route that all children have (regardless of
class) to premium access to public schooling, they will devised a way
very soon to make it impossible for it to even exist effectively by
drowning public school in a deluge of red ink. (In the meantime,
clouding their real agenda by emphasizing issues like bilingual
education as stupid and wasteful) ..

I can't blame some of these people for their faith in private school
vouchers, but I can blame them for their lack of originality. The
rich kids whose parents can afford the difference that vouchers don't
cover to send them to an open private school will be more successful
than those who are left at the cold gates of a sunken bankrupted
public school system. It is just another conservative attempt at
institutionalizing racism in this country as they have many times in
the past.

Privatization of the Dept. of Water and Power in California is what
is causing rolling blackouts up there lovely little San Francisco ..
while you guys who voted for it are sitting in the dark like idiots
counting the few pennies your republican friends have saved you.. I
guess you guys must have never read Jack and the Beanstalk. Your only
hope now is California's Governor Davis who has decided to buy back
your foolishly privatized utilities with the rest of your california
tax money (that you were told you would save once upon a time) and
all because emperor bushy baby (born again with fascist cravings) is
just as disconnected in helping the dopes up in northern california
just as much as some of the tightwads are with what they consider to
be 'the lower creatures' of US society. (like spanish speaking legal
immigrants who naturally require bilingual education for their
children)

How long do you think public education would be available to all
children if these children didn't have a legal right to an decent
education in this country? Be true to yourself. If they could have
their way these same stingy socially-irresponsible people would vote
against educational spending altogether. It is time, and they can
afford now to differentiate their lais-sai-fair capitalistic
attitude out of the lives of children, if only for the future of their
country.

If americans are going to leave the immigration door wide open, why
must they continue doing so with reborn outdated pre-progressive
1890's social policies? If the US continues to misrepresent itself by
misadvertising 'The American Dream' to the rest of the world they
should also be held accountable to the same laws that exist everywhere
that apply to companies that misadvertising their products and
services.

B. Thober
az266@gmx.~net
Los Angeles, California U.S.A.
http://antinuous.tripod.com/

IWjmusa

unread,

Jun 7, 2001, 8:16:55 PM6/7/01

to

>From: B. Thober az266@gmx.~net

Boy, you're soooooooo angry.

>Veronica <vle...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:

>>> The California voters who passed 227 were informed about these costs,
>>> but they were in a frenzy to insure that no foreign language was spoken
>>> in California

Not true. Foreign language is accepted in California however the understanding
that English is our offical language needs to be understood by Hispanic
speaking cultures wanting to make a life here.

>>No, they simply didn't want their tax dollars spent to "privately"
>>educate children in a foreign language.

>If that justification allows some to sleep better at night,
>more power to them..

It's not a justification, it's a reality.

>Scamming people by placing it in the same category as a b&w tax issue
>does very little to hide how these penny-pinching bastards have always
>being doing their best to find a way to legitimize and justify how
>little they really care about anyone but themselves.

It's not a scam. It's a fact that you seem to be too angry to see. We need
ONE official language that our tax dollars are spent on teaching. In addition,
we need the options for any student to choose *a second or third language* to
study. But that must be an option and not a requirement while our official
language is lost.

>their now is a majority of determined people who would like to see the
>US public educational system completely privatized, gutted,

Well, I agree that that is a republician agenda. It's based on pure greed in
the name of religon.

> If these scrooges can't rid the nation
>of the legal right and route that all children have (regardless of
>class) to premium access to public schooling, they will devised a way
>very soon to make it impossible for it to even exist effectively by
>drowning public school in a deluge of red ink.

I agree.

>I can't blame some of these people for their faith in private school
>vouchers,

I can. Vouchers is nothing more then an attempt (by the religious right) to
skirt around the law of the seperation of church and state. In doing so, they
also create private (shopping mall schools) where they can use the tax money
*at will* without the oversight of the educational board. Not to mention that
they get to brainwash our kids with their born-again crap at the same time.

Fear not. School Vouchers became dead on arrival (on a national level) when
the republicans realized that ALL religions were able to get funded under such
a new law and not just them. They quickly killed the idea themselves.

Mira

Veronica

unread,

Jun 10, 2001, 3:21:30 AM6/10/01

to

In article <jhlvhtcg56gtd8dhi...@4ax.com>,
B. Thober <az266@gmx.~net> wrote:

This has nothing to do with your imagined "class". All children have
acces to public schools. Yes they are a mess, but what about the
parents responsibility to their children? The children who excell in
school are the ones whose parents care enough.

> I can't blame some of these people for their faith in private school
> vouchers, but I can blame them for their lack of originality. The
> rich kids whose parents can afford the difference that vouchers don't
> cover to send them to an open private school will be more successful
> than those who are left at the cold gates of a sunken bankrupted
> public school system. It is just another conservative attempt at
> institutionalizing racism in this country as they have many times in
> the past.

The "rich kids" shouldn't qualify for vouchers.

> Privatization of the Dept. of Water and Power in California is what
> is causing rolling blackouts up there lovely little San Francisco ..
> while you guys who voted for it are sitting in the dark like idiots
> counting the few pennies your republican friends have saved you.. I
> guess you guys must have never read Jack and the Beanstalk. Your only
> hope now is California's Governor Davis who has decided to buy back
> your foolishly privatized utilities with the rest of your california
> tax money (that you were told you would save once upon a time) and
> all because emperor bushy baby (born again with fascist cravings) is
> just as disconnected in helping the dopes up in northern california
> just as much as some of the tightwads are with what they consider to
> be 'the lower creatures' of US society. (like spanish speaking legal
> immigrants who naturally require bilingual education for their
> children)

I haven't had any blackouts.

I don't consider them "lower creatures", but I don't think I should have
to pay for their children's bilingual education. My kids aren't getting
any free Swedish classes.

> How long do you think public education would be available to all
> children if these children didn't have a legal right to an decent
> education in this country? Be true to yourself. If they could have
> their way these same stingy socially-irresponsible people would vote
> against educational spending altogether. It is time, and they can
> afford now to differentiate their lais-sai-fair capitalistic
> attitude out of the lives of children, if only for the future of their
> country.

They have a legal right to an education in the U.S., but they shouldn't
get anything special within the public school system. Their parents
should have taken that into consideration when they decided to move to
an English speaking country.

> If americans are going to leave the immigration door wide open, why
> must they continue doing so with reborn outdated pre-progressive
> 1890's social policies? If the US continues to misrepresent itself by
> misadvertising 'The American Dream' to the rest of the world they
> should also be held accountable to the same laws that exist everywhere
> that apply to companies that misadvertising their products and
> services.
>

And alot of non-English speaking people came to this country, learned
the language and did/do great things.

Veronica

Archon

unread,

Jun 10, 2001, 6:02:23 AM6/10/01

to

> I don't consider them "lower creatures", but I don't think I should have
> to pay for their children's bilingual education. My kids aren't getting
> any free Swedish classes.

I think that people should become the nationality of where they live. If
the parent want the kids to keep some of their old culture (incl.
language), it's the parents' jobs. We get the same shit in DK with the
immigrants, some of them are so ungrateful to demand we change our
society for them, while our hospitals needs more beds, and the waiting
lists are so long that people get their treatments too late.

Veronica

unread,

Jun 14, 2001, 3:06:33 AM6/14/01

to

In article <3B2345AF...@gvdnet.dk>, Archon <arc...@gvdnet.dk>
wrote:

> > I don't consider them "lower creatures", but I don't think I should have
> > to pay for their children's bilingual education. My kids aren't getting
> > any free Swedish classes.
>
> I think that people should become the nationality of where they live. If
> the parent want the kids to keep some of their old culture (incl.
> language), it's the parents' jobs. We get the same shit in DK with the
> immigrants, some of them are so ungrateful to demand we change our
> society for them, while our hospitals needs more beds, and the waiting
> lists are so long that people get their treatments too late.

It is incredibly rude to make your life in another country and demand
that they cater to your needs, but it happens jorden runt (I just
realized that I wrote in Swedish, I must be tired).

I also think if you are going to live in a country, then do your best to
embrace the local culture, language, etc. I'm not saying they have to
stop speaking their language at home or abolish their customs, but stop
whining already...

Any other country would consider themselves being under attack by
another nation at the reate Mexicans flow through this border...

Veronica

Archon

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Jun 14, 2001, 4:32:22 AM6/14/01

to

> Any other country would consider themselves being under attack by
> another nation at the reate Mexicans flow through this border...
>
> Veronica

If this were 1000 years ago, we would call all this immigration an
invasion.

It's also ironic that DK gets more than Norway, since Norway have room
for more.

B. Thober

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Jun 14, 2001, 4:13:01 PM6/14/01

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On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:32:22 +0200, Archon <arc...@gvdnet.dk> wrote:

>
>> Any other country would consider themselves being under attack by
>> another nation at the reate Mexicans flow through this border...
>>
>> Veronica
>
>If this were 1000 years ago, we would call all this immigration an
>invasion.
>
>It's also ironic that DK gets more than Norway, since Norway have room
>for more.

You want to talk about room? We have plenty here in the states. :)

Doesn't Norway have stricter immigration policies then DK? I know that for
foreign students studying abroad in Norway must, in addition to other things,
sign a paper that says that they will not attempt to stay permanently. I have
never had to sign anything quite like that before, for anywhere else. The
impression was pretty clear to me.

yvind Seland

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Jun 15, 2001, 2:41:18 AM6/15/01

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It used to be stricter in Norway I think. Nowadays the rules are
pretty much the same, and the number of refugees accepted the last
couple of years are quite equal as well.

About room.
Greenland has even more room than Norway. I do not expect
them to take 10 times as many refugees though.

Øyvind Seland

Veronica

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Jun 16, 2001, 1:59:19 AM6/16/01

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In article <9gcame$ajk$1...@readme.uio.no>,

> Ųyvind Seland
>
>

It really shouldn't have anything to do with the amount of room a
country has. It should depend on if the citizens are being provided for
FIRST and then if there is any left over, other could be helped.

Veronica