Let's hear some stereotypes about Americans!!!
Joseph A Kidd
What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
Europe? I really would like to hear them!
A couple I - as an American - would assume are:
Americans are usually overweigth and physically unfit.
or....
Friendship with Americans is typically shallow, though the American might give
the other person the impression that the two are best of friends.
or a positive one....
Americans are very approachable as strangers.
Of course these are stereotypes and possibly nothing more than that.
Nevertheless, I am interested in hearing some from the Continent!
I am Joe Kidd at the University of Oregon.
JAK...@oregon.uoregon.edu
Henning Pangels
"American women are loose and easy" (usually stated with some degree of envy)
"Americans think they are the most important people in the world"
"Americans care only about money, career and success"
"Americans have no class"
"Americans are very friendly" (almost too friendly for some stuffy Europeans)
"Americans are not well educated"
These are the kinds of things I sometimes pick up when I go back to
Germany. Having lived in the US for over 10 years, it always bothers
me, as I've had many personal experiences quite to the contrary.
Further, I have not witnessed those kinds of stereotypes about Germans
being used by Americans. Not that American stereotypes about Germans
are any more true, but they seem less scathing, I guess.
Stereotypes suck.
-hp
--
Henning Pangels |h...@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu | Field Robotics Center
Research Programmer|(412) 268-7088 |Carnegie-Mellon University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Door is a Jar
Thomas Franz Enders
>Speaking of national stereotypes......
>
>What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
>Europe? I really would like to hear them!
>
Ok, here you go:
All Americans wear plaid bermuda shorts and Hawaii shirts in completely
unmatched colors.
American women (especially from California !) below a certain age (say 30)
are extremely beautiful.
American women above a certain age (say 50) are extremely ugly and are
using tons of make-up, which makes things even worse.
Americans wear sunglasses all the time.
Americans only eat Hamburgers and french fries and drink Coke.
Everything in America is overly commercialized.
Americans are generally very friendly people and open to strangers.
Americans have a lot of money.
Americans go surfing every day.
Americans eat chewing-gum all the time.
Everything is bigger in America.
Oh, not to forget that 'American' usually means 'from the USA'.
This is just a non-representative assortment of stereotypes I remember.
And of course, when I came to the US, I found all of them to be true. :-)
Thomas
---
Espen J. Vestre
and/or
> Europe? I really would like to hear them!
> Americans are very approachable as strangers.
I worked in California for a couple of summer months a few years ago.
The main impression my Wife and I got, is that almost all the people we
got to know well were _foreigners_ (for instance japanese). Americans
seem to have a very open attitude on the surface, all the "How are you
today?"'s in the shop are almost too much. On the other hand, getting an
american _friend_ seems very difficult. And getting invited home to an
american especially.
My home is my castle!
A less serious anecdote:
I think a lot of Europeans would think "Oh no! Typical American woman!" if
they'd heard the conversation (or should we say monologue...)my sister
overheard in a german train compartment between a "typical" [:-)] 40-50
year old american woman and a young girl.
A couple of excerpts:
American: "What do you think of German men?"
American answers herself: "I think they SMELL!!"
American: "In Germany they have SO SMALL dining rooms!! In the US we have
HUGE dining rooms!"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Espen J. Vestre, es...@coli.uni-sb.de
Universitaet des Saarlandes,
Computerlinguistik, Gebaeude 17.2
Im Stadtwald,
D-6600 SAARBRUECKEN, Germany tel. +49 (681) 302 4501
--------------------------------------------------------------
Werner Uhrig
we're supposed to this now intentionally?!?
<groan>!!
--
--(wer...@rascal.ics.utexas.edu)--*OR*--(...!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner)--
Credo: --- Never hastily ascribe to malice, ignorance, or stupidity ---
--- that which is adequately explained by inexperience or oversight. ---
(but why would you think I was hasty?!? ;-))
David George
>
> "American women are loose and easy"
> Having lived in the US for over 10 years, it always bothers
> me, as I've had many personal experiences quite to the contrary.
Does CMU run affirmative action, maybe you should try California ? or
alt.romance ?
big :-)
David.
Bruce Clement
>
>What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
>Europe? I really would like to hear them!
>
>A couple I - as an American - would assume are:
>Of course these are stereotypes and possibly nothing more than that.
>Nevertheless, I am interested in hearing some from the Continent!
>
>I am Joe Kidd at the University of Oregon.
How about "In every newsgroup, Americans want to turn the discussion into
a discussion about Americans, or about how much better America is than
everywhere else"
Yes, I know I'm not from Germany, but I once step-parented two German born
German citizens, and I read this newsgroup because I'm interested in
Germany, German culture, and the German people!
--
Bruce Clement speaking for truth, beauty, and the New Zealand way.
Exception #13 at F0AF:5A1D
Error code: 0000
Do you want to T)erminate the program, R)eboot, or try to C)ontinue
Rene Johe
David George <1992Jan7.1...@osf.org> writes:
>> "American women are loose and easy"
>> Having lived in the US for over 10 years, it always bothers
>> me, as I've had many personal experiences quite to the contrary.
>Does CMU run affirmative action, maybe you should try California ? or
>alt.romance ?
I don't know if it's just me, but European women in general seem more
sensual and (sexually) mature. I agree that American women are NOT as
"loose and easy" as their reputation. In fact, American society in
general seems to display a certain amount of sexual "anxiety." Sexual
explicitness is strongly discouraged. Just look at TV. I think U.S.
women are emotionally shallow (boy, if that doesn't get a response!!)
when compared to their European counterparts.
Just a thought.
Joachim Schrod
> Speaking of national stereotypes......
>
> What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
> Europe? I really would like to hear them!
Oh, I may add a stereotype the other way round, ie, an US stereotype
about Germans. I've read it one minute ago. From the newsgroup
soc.culture.german, Message-ID: <21...@scorn.sco.COM>, author James
Mohr:
| [Y]ou missed something that I feel is essential [...]
| and that is the stratification that permeates all
| aspects of German culture and society. Germans like to seperate
| themselves from everyone that is not part of their 'caste'. I
| particularly saw this in the intellectuals. Anyone who did not have an
| diploma from a Uni or Fachhochschule was something less than they.
(James had luck that he used 'caste'. If he had used "class" Fred
Rump would have rambaged about "Marxist babble". Although "class" is
more often used in Europe...)
--
Joachim
Celia Winkler
Actually, I had a question about this. Esping-Andersen (1990) creates
a typology of welfare states that roughly breaks down into 1) Nordic
social democratic; 2) continental European "corporatist"; and 3) Anglo
laissez-faire based. He traces the separate types of development to
types of class mobilization and historical regime structure. For example,
he writes that Germany had a strong heritage of hierarchical structure,
based on the civil service, and the working class movements were limited
to cities. In Nordic countries, there was a wide coalition among
industrial workers and farmers that resulted in its welfare state tending
more toward universality. (He spends three chapters on this, and I can't
really do him justice).
He indicates that the German welfare state is still largely based on
status (compared to the US which is based on philosophies of market
economy). Of course, there are overlappings and blendings, and, I imagine
in time, there will be far more homogeneity.
So, the question is whether this sense of status is true. If it is, could
it account for the alleged (note use of word "alleged") disparity of
treatment between party members and non- in the former DDR? Do traces
of this alleged hierarchical nature remain in Germany in the form of
education or in other forms? (The US system would not necessarily be
better, as in post-secondary schooling, and, in modification, in
primary and secondary schooling, the market philosophy applies, with the
wealthier getting a better or more prestigious education than the poor.)
--Celia
Fred Rump
>Stereotypes suck.
What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
seem to suspect a (*I don't know*) behind every tree ready to shoot a
machine gun as soon as one ventures out into the big bad city.
Just the other day I asked a neighbor's nephew and wife (company from
Germany) if they had visited NY yet. Oh no! They would never go there
alone. I don't know who they expect would be able to protect them but I
suppose any local would do.
fred
--
Fred Rump | 'A little learning is a dangerous thing/Drink deep
CompuData, Inc. | or taste not the Pierian spring' Alexander Pope
10501 Drummond Rd. | SCO Advanced Product Center
Philadelphia, Pa. 19154| Internet: fr...@COMPU.COM (215-824-3000)
Oliver Bonten
>He indicates that the German welfare state is still largely based on
>status (compared to the US which is based on philosophies of market
Yes, that's true. For instance, bearing the title of a doctor or a university
professor earns you more respect from your neighbours and is more desirable
to a lot of people than being obviously rich. This applies similarly to
civil officers.
>treatment between party members and non- in the former DDR? Do traces
>of this alleged hierarchical nature remain in Germany in the form of
>education or in other forms? (The US system would not necessarily be
Certainly. The philosophy behind the german system is not to eliminate stratifi-
cation, but to prevent inheriting social status. So, the stratum someone
belongs to shouldn't depend on the one his parents are in. In practice,
however, this doesn't work out perfectly, but the tendency is going towards
it.
Oliver
--
Heute back' ich, morgen brau' ich, uebermorgen hole ich der Koenigin ihr Kind.
Ach wie gut dass niemand weiss, dass ich o...@math.rwth-aachen.de heiss'.
Rene Johe
A couple of days ago, I wrote:
>I don't know if it's just me, but European women in general seem more
>sensual and (sexually) mature. I agree that American women are NOT as
>"loose and easy" as their reputation. In fact, American society in
>general seems to display a certain amount of sexual "anxiety." Sexual
>explicitness is strongly discouraged. Just look at TV. I think U.S.
>women are emotionally shallow (boy, if that doesn't get a response!!)
>when compared to their European counterparts.
After receiving some email on this subject, I'd just like to clarify
one thing to avoid misinterpretation:
I used "in general" twice in that paragraph for a reason. I (being
a male) would never even attempt to claim I understood the female
psyche on a personal and individual level. There are undoubtedly
individual exceptions on both sides of the issue.
Christine Detig
but I want to add US statements about the US:
-- One of five US teenagers lives in penury.
-- One of eight US teenagers has not enough to eat.
-- The infant mortality is higher than in Chile or in Turkey.
-- Every 67 second an US teenager gets a baby.
-- Every 7 minutes an US teenager is arrested because he has drugs.
-- A black person, rising up in Bronx, NY, has a lower life
expectancy than a citizen of Bangladesh.
These statements are distributed by the US National Commision on
Children (according to Die Zeit as of Dec 27, 1991). You can imagine
that they influence our picture of the US.
Further Reading:
Alex Kotlowitz:
There Are No Children Here.
Doubleday, New York, 1991.
US-$ 21.95.
************************************************************
Christine Detig (de...@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de)
Institut f\"ur Theoretische Informatik
Technical University of Darmstadt
Germany
*
Elizabeth Gilliam
>Ok, here you go:
>All Americans wear plaid bermuda shorts and Hawaii shirts in completely
>unmatched colors.
>American women (especially from California !) below a certain age (say 30)
>are extremely beautiful.
>Americans wear sunglasses all the time.
>Americans only eat Hamburgers and french fries and drink Coke.
>Everything in America is overly commercialized.
>Americans are generally very friendly people and open to strangers.
>Americans have a lot of money.
>Americans go surfing every day.
>Americans eat chewing-gum all the time.
>Everything is bigger in America.
You watch too many movies :)
The thing is that these are ALL true, but only in California.
Here in Kentucky, we enjoy a more diverse set of stereotypes,
including the ones about marrying cousins, not wearing shoes,
and having horrid accents that only horses can understand.
The funny part about these is that I heard them from people in
New York - they thought these things really happened.
So, if the top stereotypes are what Europeans think of us,
I feel a lot better about our reputation, since New Yorkers
obviously don't hold us in such high esteem.
--
Elizabeth Gilliam
b...@ms.uky.edu "Qvid? Me anxivs svm?"
b...@ukma.bitnet
Elizabeth Gilliam
> -- Every 67 second an US teenager gets a baby.
We have to find this teenager and stop her!
Espen J. Vestre
> You watch too many movies :)
>
> The thing is that these are ALL true, but only in California.
Typical Californians fit one of two stereotypes:
Stereotype one eats yoghurt and other healthy food, drinks only
no-coffeine-no-sodium-no-whatever beverages, and wears a helmet while
riding his bicycle.
Sterotype two eats only hamburgers and other junk food, drinks only beer
and an occasional coke, and wears no helmet while riding his Harley
Davidson.
Dieter Kreuer
> What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
> seem to suspect a (*I don't know*) behind every tree ready to shoot a
> machine gun as soon as one ventures out into the big bad city.
According to a news report on German TV a few days ago, the rate of murders
per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was claimed
to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
----------------------- -----------------------------------
Dieter Kreuer ## ======== / die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Lehrstuhl Informatik IV __ /// /# / dieter%informatik.rwth-
RWTH Aachen ## /// # # / aach...@uunet.uu.net
Ahornstr. 55 ## /// ##### /uunet!informatik.rwth-aachen.de!dieter
W-5100 Aachen, Germany ==== # / PHONE: +49 241 80 21413
Christa Keil
>
>In article <6JAN1992...@oregon.uoregon.edu>, jak...@oregon.uoregon.edu
>
>>What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
>>Europe? I really would like to hear them!
>
For example it is very (at least for me) to see in some american movies,
that someone gets nacked out of bed and carries the whole sheet with him
around ;-)
And:
American females have a strange taste in jewels. Which means ususally
. the bigger the better (a diamon (or Strass) like a golf-ball as
ring is the minimum)
And it seems that they were all jewels they have at once, so that
at the end they look nearly like a overloaded christmas-tree ;-)
Christa
--
Amerika, der Weg von der Barbarei in die Dekadenz, ohne den Umweg ueber die
Kultur ,
Christa Keil ----------- Umv...@Dbnmeb1.bitnet ---------- zo...@guug.de
Christa Keil
>What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
>Europe? I really would like to hear them!
Americans are very prudish.
American Restaurant: Fastfood (MacDreck, WuergerKing, Roy K.O)
--
"Yankee girls are so "nice_(TM)" that they comb their pubic hair in the middle
to both sides..." (c) Magnus Marcuson, 07. May 1991 ,
Paulo Frank
>In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
>
>> What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
>> seem to suspect a (*I don't know*) behind every tree ready to shoot a
>> machine gun as soon as one ventures out into the big bad city.
>
>According to a news report on German TV a few days ago, the rate of murders
>per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was claimed
>to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
>
incidence of crime, suggests that the high crime rate in the has underlying
origins other than gun ownership (I am, by the way against private gun ownership). >----------------------- -----------------------------------
btif...@pbs.org
> The thing is that these are ALL true, but only in California.
This one is true everywhere in America:
>>American women (especially from California !) below a certain age (say 30)
>>are extremely beautiful.
And the ones above 30 are beautiful, too!
> Here in Kentucky, we enjoy a more diverse set of stereotypes,
> including the ones about marrying cousins, not wearing shoes,
> and having horrid accents that only horses can understand.
The accent in eastern Kentucky and southwestern Virginia is the most pleasant
in the world.
> The funny part about these is that I heard them from people in
> New York - they thought these things really happened.
Do you mean New York, or New York City? Folks from NY City and environs have
the most horrid accents of anyone on earth except South Carolinians, but
Upstate New York is entirely different, and most folks in the Empire State
(I call it the Vampire State because of the taxes) would just as soon see NY
City drop off into the Atlantic so it would quit sucking their lifeblood.
-- Bruce Tiffany :-) where appropriate, otherwise :-(
btif...@pbs.org
> per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was claimed
> to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
Sales of firearms are not free here. They are also highly regulated. And
the murder rate is high because a lot of people kill other people, not because
firearms are sold.
-- Bruce Tiffany
armin.roeseler
>
>The widespread private ownership of firearms in Switzerland, coupled with a low
>underlying origins other than gun ownership [...].
It is certainly true that the widespread availability of guns *per se*
don't turn a peaceful society into a bunch of thieves and thugs.
There is something peculiar about Americas obsession with guns, however.
On the surface, it appears that gun ownership guarantees constitutional
freedoms to the American people. If one believes this, one must find an
explanation as to why this *guarantor of freedom* is so often turned
*against* the very people that it is supposed to set free.
No, the explanation must found be elsewhere -- possibly hidden deep inside
the instinctual core of the American (male?) psyche. Let's see, what would
Sigmund say? Of course, the gun is just an extension of the penis
(you know, the ability to penetrate over great distances ...). Restricting
gun ownership is simply perceived as an act of castration -- and we can't
let *that* happen. *Now* we understand Americas obsession with guns --
especially in light of earlier discussions about the general sexual
represssion in the US.
Armin
Andreas Stolcke
> end...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Franz Enders) writes:
> You watch too many movies :)
> The thing is that these are ALL true, but only in California.
Actually, only in L.A.
Which brings us back to Hollywood.
Classical stereotype hierarchy -:).
--
Andreas Stolcke sto...@icsi.berkeley.edu
International Computer Science Institute sto...@ucbicsi.bitnet
1947 Center St., Suite 600, Berkeley, CA 94704 (510) 642-4274 ext. 126
Fred Rump
>In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
>> What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
>According to a news report on German TV a few days ago, the rate of murders
>per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was claimed
>to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
It's ridiculous but I've never even 'seen' anyone shot and I've been
roaming around the USA for a quite a long time. Nor do I know of anyone
who has ever been machinegunned or otherwise done in.
Your point is well taken though, in that folks from Germany see the news
and imagine it's everywhere. Snapshots create stereotypes and that is the
whole point of the erroneous conclusion.
Fred
Fred Rump
>de...@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Christine Detig) writes:
>> -- Every 67 second an US teenager gets a baby.
>We have to find this teenager and stop her!
And here I thought humor had been forbidden.
I'm still chuckling, stop me.
fred
Oliver Bonten
>Sales of firearms are not free here. They are also highly regulated. And
>the murder rate is high because a lot of people kill other people, not because
>firearms are sold.
Maybe the difference is that a lot of petty criminals in the US are armed
and in Europe aren't, due to 1. the better availability of guns (if many
people legally own guns, a skilled burglar will find one easily enough)
2. the high detection rate for armed crime in Europe (keeping many crimi-
nals from being armed, since police would double or triple the effort to
get him or her) and 3. the much higher penalties for armed crime (stealing
a pack of chewing gum gets you a DM50-100 fine, but doing so armed may
get you 10 years, even if you didn't show your gun). This all makes life
for unarmed criminals much easier. This wouldn't be possible if a greater
number of criminals were armed.
Besides, there are cases known where even police shoots a 'suspect' in
'self defense' where it came out that the person shot was in no way con-
nected to the crime investigated and in no way attacked the officers;
they were simply mistaken. If this happens to police, who have a sound
training in such matters, who guarantees that this doesn't happen with
private people? It's not my "right to arm bears" that I'm concerned
about, it's my neighbour's.
Oliver Bonten
>The widespread private ownership of firearms in Switzerland, coupled with a low
>incidence of crime, suggests that the high crime rate in the has underlying
>origins other than gun ownership (I am, by the way against private gun ownershi
>----------------------- -----------------------------------
Do you speak about their army rifles, or are other guns privately available
there? Concerning army rifles - they probably know well where the individual
rifles are and can track down a particular rifle from an examination of
the bullet. Besides, rifles are much clumsier to use in a burglary and harder
to hide when walking down a street than handguns. But certainly the swiss
general wealth is another factor: every swiss citizen is, if not rich, at
least an upper middle class bourgeois (note: this is a stereotype, too)
and doesn't commit street crimes (but probably others, like selling arms
to Iraq or laundering drug money).
Bill Potter
(Christa Keil) writes:
> In article <92009.110...@DBNMEB1.BITNET>, I said:
> >
> >In article <6JAN1992...@oregon.uoregon.edu>, jak...@oregon.uoregon.edu
> >(Joseph A Kidd) says:
> >
> >>What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around
Germany and/or
> >>Europe? I really would like to hear them!
> >
> >Americans are very prudish.
>
> For example it is very (at least for me) to see in some american movies,
> that someone gets nacked out of bed and carries the whole sheet with him
> around ;-)
You mean they're being prudish!? I always thought they were doing a
Linus imitation when they walked around with a sheet.
=============================================================================
Bill Potter : unido!pcsbst!billp :
PCS GmbH : bi...@pcsbst.pcs.com :
D8000 Muenchen : You can't sink a RAINBOW :
=============================================================================
Ed Lieser
1) Germans rarely bathe.
Well, compared to Americans, not as often (I believe). Some Americans
would shower twice a day, though. A bit excessive, perhaps.
2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
This is at least somewhat true. I wonder if any younger girls DO shave
some body hair nowadays, though, or if this varies in different
parts of the country. This is a seemingly *big* cultural difference
between Germany and America, in that many Americans think that hair on
a woman's legs is repulsive.
3) Germans are big.
I am almost 6 feet tall, and the few times that I've been there it seemed
that a fair percentage of the women were about my size, and a number of
the men were half a head taller.
Any comments, other than "You're an idiot"? :-)
Ed Lieser
Jon Livesey
|> die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
|>
|> >In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
|>
|> >> What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
|> >According to a news report on German TV a few days ago, the rate of murders
|> >per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was claimed
|> >to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
|>
|> It's ridiculous but I've never even 'seen' anyone shot and I've been
|> roaming around the USA for a quite a long time. Nor do I know of anyone
|> who has ever been machinegunned or otherwise done in.
During the two years I lived in Atlanta, two murder victims were
shot with handguns on my block, one in the entry hall of the building
in which I lived, and a third was shot in the parking lot across the
street.
Now that I live in comparatively peaceful suburban California, things
have calmed down a little. In the past year, one person was knifed
to death in a parking lot about a hundred yards from my house, and a
couple of weeks ago, a pair of young men were machine gunned to death,
about fifty rounds from an Uzi according to the police, in a parking
lot just off a route I use for jogging.
On New Years day, a four year old boy in San Jose, about a mile or
so from where I live, managed to kill himself with his grandfather's
pistol. Grandfather had been out at midnight, celebrating the New
Year by firing it into the air, and left the gun lying in the house.
The dead child had been given several toy pistols for Christmas, and
perhaps confused the real gun with one of them.
|>
|> Your point is well taken though, in that folks from Germany see the news
|> and imagine it's everywhere. Snapshots create stereotypes and that is the
|> whole point of the erroneous conclusion.
In this case, by my experience, the so-called "stereotype" seems to be
all too accurate. Last night the BBC reported that the US murder total
was up again, several cities broke their previous records, and the rate
of murders that are never solved rose to another record.
jon.
Jon Corelis
>die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
>>In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
>It's ridiculous but I've never even 'seen' anyone shot and I've
>been roaming around the USA for a quite a long time. Nor do I know
>of anyone who has ever been machinegunned or otherwise done in.
Well I also have been roaming around the U.S. for quite a long time,
and in that time I have been beaten up on the street twice, had rocks
thrown at me on the street several times, had a female room-mate who
was raped while sleeping in the room next to mine, had a female friend
who was raped by three youths in the apartment downstairs from me, had
a female acquaintance across the street who was raped, knew a 19-year
old friend of my sister who was raped twice in two separate incidents
in a public park, have come across human gore lying on the sidewalk
from a shooting that took place twenty minutes before I strolled by,
been roused from a sound sleep at night by nearby volleys of gunshots,
passed by a man on a crowded sidewalk who was holding a knife and
muttering at random "I'm going to kill you" while all the passers-by
ignored him, picked up a newspaper to find that a college classmate had
been murdered on the street by two shot-gun toting thugs a block and a
half from where I lived, had a man on a subway attempt to get a
judo-hold on me for no apparent reason at all, and run into numerous
less serious episodes of violence which I won't bore everyone by going
into here. Most of the specific incidents I've mentioned occurred in
what would certainly be considered "nice" neighborhoods.
So my own experience overwhelmingly indicates that if either
Americans or foreigners think that U.S. cities are god damned dangerous,
they are god damned right.
--
Jon Corelis j...@lindy.stanford.edu
Stanford University BITNET: BA....@RLG.STANFORD.EDU
Alan McKay
>Here are a couple of ideas that Americans seem to have about Germans.
>2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
>This is at least somewhat true. I wonder if any younger girls DO shave
>some body hair nowadays, though, or if this varies in different
>parts of the country. This is a seemingly *big* cultural difference
>between Germany and America, in that many Americans think that hair on
>a woman's legs is repulsive.
My German girlfriend shaves nothing, and I like it that way. I
never could understand why someone would want to shave their
legs or goodness forbid their armpits.
--
Alan W. McKay | (902)542-2201.396 | Wolfville, N.S. Canada
al...@aucs.acadiau.ca | Acadia University | SUB Box 6008, B0P 1Z1
Gary Greene
>fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
>>die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
>>>In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump) writes:
>>It's ridiculous but I've never even 'seen' anyone shot and I've
>>been roaming around the USA for a quite a long time. Nor do I know
>>of anyone who has ever been machinegunned or otherwise done in.
> Well I also have been roaming around the U.S. for quite a long time,
>and in that time I have been beaten up on the street twice, had rocks
>thrown at me on the street several times, had a female room-mate who
>was raped while sleeping in the room next to mine, had a female friend...
...much violence deleted to save bandwidth
> So my own experience overwhelmingly indicates that if either
>Americans or foreigners think that U.S. cities are god damned dangerous,
>they are god damned right.
>--
Jon, not to dispute your personal experience (my sympathies) but I must
side with Fred to some degree. Your case seems extreme and not at all
matching my experience or that of my extended family. The worse I can
claim is that I've had my wheels stolen in the dead of night off my car
exactly once. I don't dispute that what you descibe goes on, and worse,
but I haven't seen so much violent experience concentrated in one person
outside of a war zone. As you say, neither do I frequent bad neighborhoods
much. My nephews have seen some of what you describe but then the *do*
live in a bad neighborhood ...part of East San Jose which sees more than
a bit of drug traffic. Even their experience is far and away better than
yours. I will agree with you though that women, particularly alone, are
at more risk than most men.
Good Luck,
Gary Greene
Unisys/Convergent Technology ga...@convergent.com
San Jose, California ga...@netcom.com (at home)
Henning Pangels
>Here are a couple of ideas that Americans seem to have about Germans.
>1) Germans rarely bathe.
I would agree, although at least Germans bathe more often than the
French...
People have also said that Germans change their underwear on average
once a week, although every German I know (and about whom I would know
such things...) follows a daily schedule.
>2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
Also true statistically (IMHO). But neither do men.
Personally, I don't really care if a woman's legs are shaven or not,
as long as it's not three-day stubble. Ouch!
>3) Germans are big.
Led by Helmut "Birne" Kohl, who's big even by German standards.
-hp
--
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The Door is a Jar
Jon Corelis
>j...@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>> Well I also have been roaming around the U.S. for quite a long time,
>>and in that time I have been beaten up on the street twice, had rocks
>>thrown at me on the street several times, had a female room-mate who
>>was raped while sleeping in the room next to mine, had a female friend...
>...much violence deleted to save bandwidth
>Jon, not to dispute your personal experience (my sympathies) but I must
>side with Fred to some degree. Your case seems extreme and not at all
>matching my experience or that of my extended family. The worse I can
>claim is that I've had my wheels stolen in the dead of night off my car
>exactly once. I don't dispute that what you descibe goes on, and worse,
>but I haven't seen so much violent experience concentrated in one person
>outside of a war zone....
I was a little surprised myself looking at the summary of my
experience of urban violence, though it's not exaggerated and in fact I
left a bunch of stuff out. I should add that these incidents were
spread over nearly thirty years, much of which was spent in inner-city
Chicago (which everyone knows is a tough town) and San Francisco (which
a lot of people don't realize is a tough town.) And mostly I lived in
nice neighborhoods which were located next to bad ones, which as any
city-dweller will tell you tends to be a dangerous situation.
Still, I think many Americans from similar backgrounds could tell
similar horror stories.
Returning though to the point that's relevant to this newsgroup, my
own experience of both U.S. and European cities is that the former are
orders of magnitude more dangerous. Sure, I know that there are
dangerous neighborhoods in Paris and London, and no doubt there are
many people who have lived all their lives in inner New York without
encountering crime. But overall, my personal experience overwhelmingly
supports the impression which some Europeans have that European cities
are livably peaceful, while American cities have become almost
unlivably crime-ridden.
Jon Livesey
>
> Still, I think many Americans from similar backgrounds could tell
> similar horror stories.
Indeed, I think the most telling part of this lies in the
warnings that Americans give to visitors about where and
where not to go, and how to get there. When I first came
to the US, I assumed that I could behave more or less the
way I did when I lived in Toronto. One large North
American city has to be much like another, right?
In fact, I spent the first few months horrifying people
that I talked to: "You went where?", "You went out at
what time of night?" "You went shopping that *that*
part of town?" "You went in the *subway*"? "Are
you crazy?"
Americans who live in large cities seem to develop a
set of rules about where to go, when to go, how to get
there, places never to go, people never to talk to,
bars never to go near..... Eventually this becomes
second nature, and then when someone from overseas
mentions dangerous cities, they say "Really? Well I
never have any trouble." That's right, they don't
have any trouble, because they know the rules, but
visitors generally don't.
jon.
Gary Greene
Jon Corelis:
>>>thrown at me on the street several times, had a female room-mate who
>>>was raped while sleeping in the room next to mine, had a female friend...
Gary Greene:
>>...much violence deleted to save bandwidth
>>Jon, not to dispute your personal experience (my sympathies) but I must
>>side with Fred to some degree. Your case seems extreme and not at all
>>matching my experience or that of my extended family. The worse I can
>>claim is that I've had my wheels stolen in the dead of night off my car
>>exactly once. I don't dispute that what you descibe goes on, and worse,
>>but I haven't seen so much violent experience concentrated in one person
>>outside of a war zone....
Jon Corelis:
> I was a little surprised myself looking at the summary of my
>experience of urban violence, though it's not exaggerated and in fact I
>left a bunch of stuff out. I should add that these incidents were
>spread over nearly thirty years, much of which was spent in inner-city
>Chicago (which everyone knows is a tough town) and San Francisco (which
...deleted...
> Returning though to the point that's relevant to this newsgroup, my
>own experience of both U.S. and European cities is that the former are
>orders of magnitude more dangerous. Sure, I know that there are...
Jon, I don't dispute that one bit. I lived in Germany for three years
when I was in the Air Force. When I was there last, 20 years ago, I
found the cities clean, the people polite and generally helpful if you
were polite in turn, and hitch-hiking wasn't a certifiable act of
insanity. Most of Europe was that way, excepting Italy and Sardinia
(which I don't think sees many tourists anyway). The other places to
avoid were places where low-grade warfare took place like Ulster.
Jon Livesey writes in a similar vein to you that:
Americans who live in large cities seem to develop a
set of rules about where to go, when to go, how to get
there, places never to go, people never to talk to,
bars never to go near..... Eventually this becomes
second nature, and then when someone from overseas
mentions dangerous cities, they say "Really? Well I
never have any trouble." That's right, they don't
have any trouble, because they know the rules, but
visitors generally don't.
There is a lot of truth to this as well. I understood that Fred's
point was that a lot of Europeans have gained the impression that
American cities are competing with Beruit for the most dangerous
town to pass through. It is *not* always safe here, and nowhere
near as safe as most European cities (though the skinheads in Germany
seem to be trashing that record a bit lately). But tourists here
ought not to be afraid they will wander into a Miami Vice movie set
with live ammo flying. Most of the genuinely dangerous places are not
on the tour maps anyway. Some care is required (particularly in New York,
Chicago, and Los Angeles), and this shames me deeply, but few tourists
actually get involved in this uncivil stupidity we find ourselves dealing
with these years. Hopefully we will clean up our act sometime soon.
Respectfully,
Henning Pangels
Without including pages of previous postings under this heading, the
discussion had me examine how safe I felt growing up in Germany.
It turns out that what we, as teenagers, feared most were groups of
drunk French soldiers stationed nearby, who would roam the city on
weekends and had the reputation of beating up random victims. It never
happened to me or my friends, though. Perhaps it was because we made
sure that we were walking around in mixed company, since it was also
common knowledge that they would leave you alone if you had girls with
you. But this is turning into French stereotypes...anyway, that's the
way we saw it. Other than that, it was safe enough to be out and about
the city, day or night.
With that background, I came to Pittsburgh. One of the first lessons
that things were different here happened when my buddy and I decided
to explore the city (on foot, no less, we didn't have a good sense of
the scale) and promptly found ourselves in the hill district, which
arguably is a part of town to be avoided. We got all kinds of strange
looks, but nothing happened until a police car pulled over and we were
told to get in if we valued our health and cameras. As we were driven
through the area courtesy of Pittsburgh's finest, it began to sink in
that this was serious. They dropped us off in a safer part of town
with some stern words of advice.
I'm still wondering if I should have given them a tip...
-hp
--
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It's later than you think
Pierluigi Miraglia
:
>btif...@pbs.org writes:
>
>>Sales of firearms are not free here. They are also highly regulated. And
>>the murder rate is high because a lot of people kill other people, not becaus
e
>>firearms are sold.
>
>Maybe the difference is that a lot of petty criminals in the US are armed
>and in Europe aren't, due to 1. the better availability of guns (if many
>people legally own guns, a skilled burglar will find one easily enough)
>2. the high detection rate for armed crime in Europe (keeping many crimi-
>nals from being armed, since police would double or triple the effort to
>get him or her) and 3. the much higher penalties for armed crime (stealing
>a pack of chewing gum gets you a DM50-100 fine, but doing so armed may
>get you 10 years, even if you didn't show your gun). This all makes life
>for unarmed criminals much easier. This wouldn't be possible if a greater
>number of criminals were armed.
>
explanation.
In the USA there are many people (certainly many more than in Germany or
anywhere in W. Europe) for whom it is *rational* to be violent and to behave
criminally. This is because a lot of people live and/or grow up in areas
and (especially urban) neighborhood where life is actually worse than in
the poorest 3rd world countries. If you have such limited prospects and if
you are treated with complete indifference by people living only a few
blocks away, it seems to me that it would be rational to consider human
life (i.e. the lives of people you see around) as somewhat more expendable.
It certainly would be rational to risk 10 or 15 years in jail rather than
10 or 15 years of miserable "freedom".
I use "rational" here in the obvious way; it's rational in this sense, for
example, to choose the option that maximizes your advantage and minimizes
the risk of a negative outcome. It's rational for most people to respect
the law because the consequences of an infraction are potentially very
dangerous. But, under certain conditions, it may be rational to risk more.
Ciao
PL.
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pierluigi Miraglia Mirag...@osu.edu
Department of Philosophy The Ohio State University Columbus, OH
"Scurdammoce 'o passato" - K. Popper, "Miseria dello Storicismo"
Fred Rump from home
> So my own experience overwhelmingly indicates that if either
>Americans or foreigners think that U.S. cities are god damned dangerous,
>they are god damned right.
I think it is time then that we go to plan B and barricade ourselves. Maybe
we can use the old bomb shelters we built at another panic season.
Murders still make the nightly news. Car accidents seldom do. Many more
people are killed in car accidents. Syllogism?
There are 5 million people in greater Philly, 16 million in NY, the odds are
greater that one win the million dollar lottery than to get shot. But they
don't show all the million dollar winners on TV, do they? It's news that makes
for monsters. Things are bad enough as it is, but gory coverage still attracks
the human need for sensationalism.
Fred
--
W. Fred Rump office: fr...@COMPU.COM Define FAX: Fast A** Xeroxing
26 Warren St. home: fr...@icdi10.compu.com
Beverly, NJ. 08010
609-386-6846 bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr
Oliver Bonten
>1) Germans rarely bathe.
>Well, compared to Americans, not as often (I believe). Some Americans
>would shower twice a day, though. A bit excessive, perhaps.
Well, it used to be once a week (saturday), but those times are long gone.
Twice a day seems a bit much, though.
>2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
Why should they do such silly things?
>3) Germans are big.
But everything is bigger in America...
Dieter A. Schmied
I am reading of all the violent experiences of the writers
and their friends. In the former east Germany, I saw no violence, no
crime, noone sleeping in the street and felt no fear walking the
street or taking the undergrounds.
This is a stereotype that I experienced.
Ed Lieser
> lie...@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Ed Lieser) writes:
>>2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
>
> Why should they do such silly things?
Well, here it's not considered silly at all. In fact, many American males
would be immediately turned off by hair on a woman's legs. It's almost akin
to a religious belief. I knew of a woman where I grew up who adopted a
"natural" lifestyle, and everyone questioned how her husband could even sleep
with her because she didn't shave her legs.
I personally draw the line where the woman's legs are hairier than mine.
>>3) Germans are big.
>
> But everything is bigger in America...
Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>
> Oliver
> --
Ed
Irene Marquez
In article <1992Jan9.0...@urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>,
die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) says:
>
>In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred Rump)
>
>> What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going anywhere. They
>> machine gun as soon as one ventures out into the big bad city.
>
>per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was
>claimed to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
Yes, I'm sure it's higher... Here in Chicago we had over 900 murders
this past year, but that wouldn't stop me from enjoying all that
Chicago has to offer a tourist, or otherwise.
Common sense should tell
you where trouble lies... just stay out of it. I've been doing
alright for the past 27 years. =) Besides, what are the chances
of getting murdered while on vacation? Come on, live a little. =)
Getting mugged on the otherhand... well, that's a different story.
I don't think there are very many ppl here that want to murder
someone (esp. a tourist) as much as they want to have their money.
Just a few things to consider.
Irene Marquez
University of Illinois at Chicago
U37...@uicvmc.uic.edu
btif...@pbs.org
>>It's ridiculous but I've never even 'seen' anyone shot and I've
>>been roaming around the USA for a quite a long time. Nor do I know
>>of anyone who has ever been machinegunned or otherwise done in.
>
> Well I also have been roaming around the U.S. for quite a long time,
> and in that time [... list of violent occurrences ...]
Where in tarnation do you folks hang out, anyway? Nothing like this happens
anywhere near me in West Virginia! And for crying out loud, if you don't like
the neighborhood, why do you stay?
-- Bruce Tiffany
Bill Wohler
>"Americans are not well educated"
i heard something different on the plane from, ahem, california to
germany the other day from a german whose children were in
californian high schools. his view was that the american public schools
actually provided a better education--it's just that the american
students are so lazy.
Bill Wohler <woh...@sap-ag.de> <sapwdf!wohler>
Heidelberg Red Barons Ultimate Frisbee Team
Oliver Bonten
>Well, here it's not considered silly at all. In fact, many American males
>would be immediately turned off by hair on a woman's legs. It's almost akin
>to a religious belief. I knew of a woman where I grew up who adopted a
>"natural" lifestyle, and everyone questioned how her husband could even sleep
>with her because she didn't shave her legs.
Oh, I didn't know of this. It's soooooo silly! Now I really believe that
Americans are a bit weird. In this country, cyclists shave their legs.
>>>3) Germans are big.
>Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
That may be true. I don't know about Americans in particular, but Germans
seem to be taller on the average than most other people.
btif...@pbs.org
O, woe is us, and now that utopia has fallen to the decadence of the West!
If only we could go back! If only we could reclaim all that was lost when
the wall came down and allowed all the western badness in!! But, alas, it
is gone, gone forever! Quoth the raven: "Never more!"
-- Bruce Tiffany
P.S. The raven was wrong.
btif...@pbs.org
> Oliver Bonten writes:
>> Ed Lieser writes:
>>>2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
>>
>> Why should they do such silly things?
>
> Well, here it's not considered silly at all. In fact, many American males
> would be immediately turned off by hair on a woman's legs. It's almost akin
> to a religious belief. I knew of a woman where I grew up who adopted a
> "natural" lifestyle, and everyone questioned how her husband could even sleep
> with her because she didn't shave her legs.
>
> I personally draw the line where the woman's legs are hairier than mine.
It is admittedly pretty gross to see hairy legs on a woman -- yuck! -- but I
have yet to see the woman whose legs are hairier than mine! But I think I
understand the appeal, on the other hand. Shoot, there are worse things! At
least they're not extending their necks with brass rings, or piercing their
noses (punkers don't count, as we're only talking about humans :-) ), or
flattening their baby's heads, or crushing their feet for "beauty", or
scarring their flesh with knives, or putting wooden disks in their lips until
they flap against their chests ...
>>>3) Germans are big.
>>
>> But everything is bigger in America...
>
> Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
-- Bruce Tiffany
Jim Eggert x6127 g41
> 1) Germans rarely bathe.
Not so true anymore as it used to be. But once in Germany (in 1975) I
was called a Waschbaer because I wanted to bathe at least three times
a week.
> 2) The women do not shave their legs or under their arms.
True.
> 3) Germans are big.
I am pretty tall (6'4", ah 198 cm), and was considered very tall in
Germany. As I am from German immigrant stock, there was speculation
that (a) better American nutrition made me grow bigger, and (2) some
hybridization occured between different German lines. I doubt both
explanations.
--
=Jim jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Jon Livesey
|> j...@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
|>
|> >Americans or foreigners think that U.S. cities are god damned dangerous,
|> >they are god damned right.
|>
|> we can use the old bomb shelters we built at another panic season.
I don't believe that anyone has suggested this. Maybe a better
plan B would be to acknowledge reality.
|>
|> Murders still make the nightly news. Car accidents seldom do. Many more
|> people are killed in car accidents. Syllogism?
No syllogism at all. The appetite of the viewers for vicarious
criminal violence is well established.
|>
|> There are 5 million people in greater Philly, 16 million in NY, the odds are
|> greater that one win the million dollar lottery than to get shot.
Are you quite sure about that? We are now up to one murder per
ten thousand people per year. Do one in ten thousand people per
year win the Million Dollar lottery?
jon.
Jon Livesey
That's a great idea. We'll move everyone to West Virginia,
and then ask what your murder rate is then.
jon.
James Mohr
In article <1992Jan9.0...@rhrk.uni-kl.de> es...@coli.uni-sb.de (Espen J. Vestre) writes:
>
>Sterotype two eats only hamburgers and other junk food, drinks only beer
>and an occasional coke, and wears no helmet while riding his Harley
>Davidson.
That's not true!! I resent these insulting and degrading stereotypes!
Sometime I drink wine coolers! 8-)
Jim
**********************************************************************
James (Jim) Mohr "Great spirits have always
Support Engineer encountered violent opposition
The Santa Cruz Operation from mediocre minds."
email: uunet!sco!jimmo - A. Einstein
ji...@sco.com
**********************************************************************
DISCLAIMER
**********************************************************************
The opinions and views expressed here are my own and may not represent
those of the Santa Cruz Operation, The State of California or the
United States of America.
James Mohr
In article <oli.695035639@ernie> o...@math.rwth-aachen.de (Oliver Bonten) writes:
>get him or her) and 3. the much higher penalties for armed crime (stealing
>a pack of chewing gum gets you a DM50-100 fine, but doing so armed may
>get you 10 years, even if you didn't show your gun). This all makes life
>for unarmed criminals much easier. This wouldn't be possible if a greater
>number of criminals were armed.
German efforts in catching and punishing criminals far exceeds those
in the United States, which I feel is the primary reason for the lower
crime rate. Any attempt to correlate ownership of gun with criminality
is ludicrous. Just as it would be to say that owning a car makes you
drive above the speed limit. More people own guns than commit crimes.
There is no correlation.
IMHO:
The reason why the is more crime in the US is that people have more
reason to become criminals. While I still support the premise that the
average American 18 has more 'education' than his German counterpart,
the Germans enter the job market with a much better chance of getting
a job than in the US. The German 'Berufschule' concept is one of the
best parts of German society. Only a very small fraction of the German
population enters their 20s without some type of skill. Most of the
remainder are still in school. Without the chance for a decent job,
many people have no choice but to resort to crime. (Joachim - The
reason I say that American 18-year-olds have more 'education' than
Germans is because I intentionally left out the 'Berufschule'. This
'education' is too specific for me to include in my comparison.)
>
>Besides, there are cases known where even police shoots a 'suspect' in
>'self defense' where it came out that the person shot was in no way con-
>nected to the crime investigated and in no way attacked the officers;
>they were simply mistaken. If this happens to police, who have a sound
>training in such matters, who guarantees that this doesn't happen with
>private people? It's not my "right to arm bears" that I'm concerned
>about, it's my neighbour's.
Oliver, this does happen with private citizens. There are regularly
reports in the paper about someone thinking that there is an intruder
in their house and they end up shooting their four-year old kid. That's
one of the major reasons why I won't even consider having a gun in the
house. 'Lieber mein Fernseher als mein Sohn.'
>Oliver
>--
>Heute back' ich, morgen brau' ich, uebermorgen hole ich der Koenigin ihr Kind.
>Ach wie gut dass niemand weiss, dass ich o...@math.rwth-aachen.de heiss'.
(Spitze!!)
Fruehling
>Dieter A. Schmied writes:
>
>> and their friends. In the former east Germany, I saw no violence, no
>
>If only we could go back! If only we could reclaim all that was lost when
>the wall came down and allowed all the western badness in!! But, alas, it
>is gone, gone forever! Quoth the raven: "Never more!"
>
>-- Bruce Tiffany
Oh boy, seems you are one of the hardest hit victims of the east German
system. Probably you were forced to live a long time there. ;-)
Matthias.
Oliver Graf
Americans are very often extremely fat! (No joke, I've seen lots of
*VERY* fat people on each trip to the U.S.)
Clash
--
Oliver Graf, Uranusstr. 4, W-4620 Castrop-Rauxel, Germany
Email: cl...@aslan.en.open.de // MagicNET: CLASH@CASBAH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's oede to be bloede!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Dieter Kreuer
Marquez) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jan9.0...@urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>,
>die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) says:
>>According to a news report on German TV a few days ago, the rate of murders
>>per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason was
>
> Yes, I'm sure it's higher... Here in Chicago we had over 900 murders
> this past year, but that wouldn't stop me from enjoying all that
> Chicago has to offer a tourist, or otherwise.
Well, actually it wouldn't stop *me* from visiting the US again, either (I
have been there twice, yet, to California, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, and
Utah). I'm looking forward to a vacation in Florida in May. For me, the US
is still the best place to spend my holidays (I'm especially pleased to
speak the language there). But I would take some care not to get lost
in dark suburban places (and I have to admit that I felt very uncomfortable
walking down Market Street in San Francisco in the evening, although there
was a policeman standing about every 500 feet).
----------------------- -----------------------------------
Dieter Kreuer ## ======== / die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Lehrstuhl Informatik IV __ /// /# / dieter%informatik.rwth-
RWTH Aachen ## /// # # / aach...@uunet.uu.net
Ahornstr. 55 ## /// ##### /uunet!informatik.rwth-aachen.de!dieter
W-5100 Aachen, Germany ==== # / PHONE: +49 241 80 21413
Oliver Bonten
>German efforts in catching and punishing criminals far exceeds those
>in the United States, which I feel is the primary reason for the lower
>crime rate. Any attempt to correlate ownership of gun with criminality
>is ludicrous. Just as it would be to say that owning a car makes you
>drive above the speed limit. More people own guns than commit crimes.
>There is no correlation.
Esp. police efforts in catching murderers and othe violent criminals are
high. This is possible because there aren't so many murders committed.
Ok, you need a criminal to commit a crime, but then, in the USA the
average criminal will get a gun easily enough if he or she tries hard
enough. And besides, many criminals seem to be ordinary honest citizens,
so they could probably legally get a gun. In Germany, it is much harder
for a criminal to get a gun, and in general it doesn't pay off. Maybe
some people who are killed could have survived had they had a gun for
self defense, but you can't name the people who have been saved because
a certain criminal didn't have a gun.
>Oliver, this does happen with private citizens. There are regularly
>reports in the paper about someone thinking that there is an intruder
>in their house and they end up shooting their four-year old kid. That's
>one of the major reasons why I won't even consider having a gun in the
>house. 'Lieber mein Fernseher als mein Sohn.'
Exactly. But it should not be your decicion! For the sake of your four
year old kid you should not be allowed to have a gun in your house. It
is not only criminals that I were afraid of but also short-sighted over-
cautious honest citizens or people in a rage, had they guns. Besides,
you aren't going to shoot anybody for trying to steal your TV, are you?
Cindy Kandolf
I haven't found this to be the case, but this seems to be one of the
more wide-spread ones. At a camping site in Geiranger, a little town in
Norway that gets a lot of German tourists each summer, my husband reported
that the men's showers had instructions (in German) on them. Not in
Norwegian. Apparently the owner believed there would be some Germans
who had never seen a shower before???
No such sign in the women's shower room, by the way.
-Cindy Kandolf
ci...@solan.unit.no
Trondheim, Norway
Espen J. Vestre
writes:
> >>>3) Germans are big.
>
> >Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>
> That may be true. I don't know about Americans in particular, but Germans
> seem to be taller on the average than most other people.
Germany has such a diverse population that this generalization just
doesn't make sense. The people here in Saarland are _tiny_ (no chance
for me getting a decent pair of shoes!). And I'm sure tall mr. Kohl
is quite a rare bird in the Palatine as well.
Espen (195 cms)
a Norwegian in Saarland
(oh yes, typical tall Norwegian! But I've got _dark_ hair! Hah!)
and BTW:
> lie...@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Ed Lieser) writes:
> >"natural" lifestyle, and everyone questioned how her husband could even
sleep
> >with her because she didn't shave her legs.
What kind of sex habits are these americans really practicing 8-D ?
btif...@pbs.org
>>Oliver, this does happen with private citizens. There are regularly
>>reports in the paper about someone thinking that there is an intruder
>>in their house and they end up shooting their four-year old kid. That's
>>one of the major reasons why I won't even consider having a gun in the
>>house. 'Lieber mein Fernseher als mein Sohn.'
>
> Exactly. But it should not be your decicion! ...
This is the seemingly innocent stuff of which tyranny is made. The Founders
who penned the Second Amendment -- who also believed children belong to their
parents, not to the state -- were much wiser.
Nuf Ced.
-- BT
btif...@pbs.org
:-}
-- BT
Rene Johe
>>>3) Germans are big.
>>Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>That may be true. I don't know about Americans in particular, but Germans
>seem to be taller on the average than most other people.
You guys are killing me. Anyone selling growth hormone cheap?
btif...@pbs.org
> On the stereotype: Germans rarely bathe.
>
> I haven't found this to be the case, but this seems to be one of the
> more wide-spread ones.
I don't know what it's like over yonder now, since I haven't been to Germany
since 1972, but when I was there I did notice in a very pungent way that many
Germans apparently did not see any need to bathe regularly, although I sensed
their need to do so.
-- Bruce Tiffany
P.S. This was not the case at all with the German family I stayed with.
Bill Potter
die...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer) writes:
> In article <1992Jan7.1...@compu.com> fr...@compu.com (Fred
>
> > What gets me all the time is the fear of visitors of going
anywhere. They
> > seem to suspect a (*I don't know*) behind every tree ready to shoot a
> > machine gun as soon as one ventures out into the big bad city.
>
> per population is in the US 8 times the rate in Germany (one reason
> to be the free sale of fire arms in the US).
Dieter, Dieter, are you totally crazy. What you write may be true but
it's also an open invitation to the US Gun Nuts to invade soc.culture.german.
They made soc.culture.australia unreadable during November and December.
They are currently destroying soc.culture.britain. And now you invite
them here.
=============================================================================
Bill Potter : unido!pcsbst!billp :
PCS GmbH : bi...@pcsbst.pcs.com :
D8000 Muenchen : You can't sink a RAINBOW :
=============================================================================
Henning Pangels
In article <1992Jan14.0...@rhrk.uni-kl.de> es...@coli.uni-sb.de (Espen J. Vestre) writes:
[...]
>Germany has such a diverse population that this generalization just
>doesn't make sense. The people here in Saarland are _tiny_ (no chance
>for me getting a decent pair of shoes!). And I'm sure tall mr. Kohl
>is quite a rare bird in the Palatine as well.
That's because of the Saarland's vicinity to France; in fact, it used
to be part of France after WWII.
-Henning
Ein Saarlaender in Pennsylvania
--
Henning Pangels | h...@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu | Field Robotics Center
Research Programmer | (412) 268-7088 | Carnegie-Mellon University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Das Trinkgefaess, wenn einmal leer, macht keine rechte Freude mehr - W. Busch
Pierluigi Miraglia
:
>Ok, you need a criminal to commit a crime, but then, in the USA the
>average criminal will get a gun easily enough if he or she tries hard
>enough. And besides, many criminals seem to be ordinary honest citizens,
>so they could probably legally get a gun. In Germany, it is much harder
>
>Exactly. But it should not be your decicion! For the sake of your four
>year old kid you should not be allowed to have a gun in your house. It
>is not only criminals that I were afraid of but also short-sighted over-
>cautious honest citizens or people in a rage, had they guns. Besides,
Both good points that underlie any intelligent approach to the problem
of crime and guns.
Remarkably, Americans cannot understand either one. According to American
mythology, "criminals" are a particular genetic strand, a unique species of
individuals who are programmed to be violent and dangerous from birth.
They can't figure out why there seem to be so many of them just in the U.S.
(of course, most true-blue Americans have an explanation for this: it's just
that there are too many blacks around...)
Grutzi
Pierluigi
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pierluigi Miraglia Mirag...@osu.edu
Department of Philosophy The Ohio State University Columbus, OH
"Scurdammoce 'o passato" - K. Popper, "Miseria dello Storicismo"
Harald Fuchs
> Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
Mentally or physically?
--
Harald Fuchs <h...@informatik.uni-kl.de>
Harald Fuchs
Typical Californians fit one of two stereotypes:
Stereotype one eats yoghurt and other healthy food, drinks only
no-coffeine-no-sodium-no-whatever beverages, and wears a helmet while
riding his bicycle.
Sterotype two eats only hamburgers and other junk food, drinks only beer
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and an occasional coke, and wears no helmet while riding his Harley
Davidson.
Another cultural sterotype: there's no such thing like beer in the US of A.
What they call beer over there is something radically different from
the Real Thing.
American beer is like fucking in a canoe: damned near to the water.
(Monty Python)
--
Harald Fuchs <h...@informatik.uni-kl.de>
Thomas Koenig
>American beer is like fucking in a canoe: damned near to the water.
> (Monty Python)
Ouch, you got that wrong: it's
American beer is like making love in a canoe: fucking close to water
(Monty Python, Live At The Hollywood Bowl)
--
Thomas Koenig
ib...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ui...@dkauni2.bitnet, | Help stamp out and abolish
ui...@ibm3090.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de | redundancy!
Dieter A. Schmied
Pierluigi!
I think you could say more on this subject line at least I
would like to hear more. While is more an American problem the Germans
seem less affected by it and may have some input that could help
because 45% of the people in this country have some german blood.
Therefore if the criminality arguments could argue genetic
relationships, the Germans might comment.
The US approach to criminal justice seems archaic. If 70%
of thos that have went to jail return to jail later in this rich
country, how come only 15% returned to jail in the former
East Germany which failed?
Perhaps you should change the heading.
Ciao
randy kaufman
Amen, Bruce!
I've been wondering the same thing. I've never been mugged, shot at, had
my car stolen, etc.
But then, I've never spent a lot of time (no more than necessary ;-) in
large cities like N.Y., L.A., D.C., or Chicago. Most of my life has been
spent in small- to medium-sized towns and cities, where walking the street,
_any_ street, was not considered a high-risk activity.
There seems to be a considerable link between population density, i.e.
crowding, and civil misbehaviour.
Randy Kaufman
Electrical & Computer Engineering
Clemson Univ.
Joachim Schrod
>
> >That may be true. I don't know about Americans in particular, but Germans
> >seem to be taller on the average than most other people.
>
> You guys are killing me. Anyone selling growth hormone cheap?
Oh, if you get an address, forward it to me. Well, I'm German, but anyhow.
I remember my last Sting concert where I saw nearly nothing... not to
think about the Miles Davis concert [yes! one of the very last ones!]
where I was glad not to sit on my chair -- I would have seen nothing...
--
Joachim
Darmstadt, Germany
<sch...@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de>
Christine Detig
Try baking powder! That helps.
--Christine
Jim Eggert x6127 g41
Esp. police efforts in catching murderers and othe violent criminals are
high. This is possible because there aren't so many murders committed.
Ok, you need a criminal to commit a crime, but then, in the USA the
average criminal will get a gun easily enough if he or she tries hard
enough. And besides, many criminals seem to be ordinary honest citizens,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
so they could probably legally get a gun. In Germany, it is much harder
for a criminal to get a gun, and in general it doesn't pay off. Maybe
some people who are killed could have survived had they had a gun for
self defense, but you can't name the people who have been saved because
a certain criminal didn't have a gun.
Huh?
How does the German government tell the difference between criminals
that are ordinary honest citizens, and those that are really bad guys?
Here in the US, if you are a criminal, you are assumed to be a bad
guy, and you can't get a gun legally. So you get one illegally, which
is not too difficult. Making guns illegal today wouldn't reduce the
number of guns in the criminals hands today. It would dry up the
ready supply of new and legal guns to the population at large, but it
is not at all obvious that this would ever result in a reduction of
the number of guns in criminals' hands. (Witness cocaine: illegal,
but plentiful, if you are a criminal.)
G.I.West
the whole country. Currently 67 stand unsolved (ie. no charges brought)
Dieter Kreuer
>Cindy Kandolf writes:
>> On the stereotype: Germans rarely bathe.
>>
>> I haven't found this to be the case, but this seems to be one of the
>> more wide-spread ones.
>
>I don't know what it's like over yonder now, since I haven't been to Germany
>since 1972, but when I was there I did notice in a very pungent way that many
>Germans apparently did not see any need to bathe regularly, although I sensed
>their need to do so.
Well, at that time showers were just starting to become popular, there
may be some truth to this (I was just 8 then, an I still remember
Saturday to be *the* day to take a bath). However, things have changed
now, and I'm feeling bad, if I don't take a shower every morning
(sometimes three showers a day). Well, since I'm doing so, I have
problems with a hypersensitive skin, and regarding all the latest
commercials on TV about pH 5.5 shower gels, I do not seem to be
the only one.
Oliver Bonten
>This is the seemingly innocent stuff of which tyranny is made. The Founders
>who penned the Second Amendment -- who also believed children belong to their
>parents, not to the state -- were much wiser.
Children do not "belong" to their parents, they belong to themselves, and
probably _with_ their parents. As a parent, you do have the duty to ensure
your child's health and security as good as you can. Shooting children
doesn't belong to this.
Tyranny may start when individuals or organisations begin to employ and equip
private armies which can't be controlled by the police or the regular armed
forces. One day you'll have to nuke Chicago to prevent worse crimes.
Oliver
--
Heute back ich, morgen brau ich, uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr Kind.
Ach wie gut dass niemand weiss, dass ich o...@math.rwth-aachen.de heiss.
Bill Potter
h...@informatik.uni-kl.de (Harald Fuchs) writes:
> In article <1992Jan13.1...@pbs.org> btif...@pbs.org writes:
>
> > Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>
> Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
>
> Mentally or physically?
I think the word is THICK.
(But maybe you have to be British to understand that.)
Oliver Bonten
>How does the German government tell the difference between criminals
>that are ordinary honest citizens, and those that are really bad guys?
I was speaking of criminals who _seem to be_ honest citizens. If your neigh-
bour works at night, do you know if he works night shift at the factory
or is a burglar? They don't usually walk around wearing a face mask and
striped shirts. Pimps and drug dealers are often rather rich and live
in the best neighbourhoods and send their nice children to nice schools,
but in reality are worse criminals than the average mugger or burglar.
Frauds live from appearing honest.
>Here in the US, if you are a criminal, you are assumed to be a bad
>guy, and you can't get a gun legally. So you get one illegally, which
This is the same in this country, only there are fewer guns illegaly
available. Obtaining ammunition is difficult as well. There are almost
no small calibre handguns at all (so a bullet-proof vest is useless in
Germany: no one uses the calibres they can catch) and few large calibre
ones.
You have one problem in the USA: if you would make guns illegal from
tomorrow on, honest citizens would be stripped of possible defense
at once while it takes decades for the criminals to be disarmed.
Oliver
--
Heute back ich, morgen brau ich, uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr Kind.
Ach wie gut dass niemand weiss, dass ich o...@math.rwth-aachen.de heiss.
btif...@pbs.org
> In article <HF.92Jan...@demisec.informatik.uni-kl.de>,
> h...@informatik.uni-kl.de (Harald Fuchs) writes:
>> In article <1992Jan13.1...@pbs.org> btif...@pbs.org writes:
>>
>> > Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>>
>> Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
>>
>> Mentally or physically?
>
> I think the word is THICK.
> (But maybe you have to be British to understand that.)
Americans understand it, too! We also say "dense" (among other things).
Not that I'm accusing Kohl of this.
-- Bruce Tiffany
btif...@pbs.org
> The US approach to criminal justice seems archaic. If 70%
> of thos that have went to jail return to jail later in this rich
> country, how come only 15% returned to jail in the former
> East Germany which failed?
Probably because the German jails didn't have 3 square meals, carpets,
libraries, gyms, TV ...
-- BT
btif...@pbs.org
>
> > Uh, I meant *tall*, not *wide*. :-)
>
> Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
>
> Mentally or physically?
Either way.
-- BT
btif...@pbs.org
> In article <1992Jan14.0...@pbs.org> btif...@pbs.org writes:
>>Cindy Kandolf writes:
>>> On the stereotype: Germans rarely bathe.
>>>
>>> I haven't found this to be the case, but this seems to be one of the
>>> more wide-spread ones.
>>
>>I don't know what it's like over yonder now, since I haven't been to Germany
>>since 1972, but when I was there I did notice in a very pungent way that many
>>Germans apparently did not see any need to bathe regularly, although I sensed
>>their need to do so.
>
Now that you mention it, in retrospect it does seem strange that there wasn't
a shower in the house. I had to take a bath in the tub every day, which seemed
a little strange.
-- Bruce Tiffany
Eric Silber
:: Isn't Helmut Kohl pretty wide?
:: Mentally or physically?
BP:
I think the word is THICK.
(But maybe you have to be British to understand that.)
No, you don't have to be British to understand that!
("Thick" ~ "doesn't have anything under the bonnet" ~ "oben ohne" (-8} )
BTW: I think Kohl is one of the few heads of state that doesn't speak a second
language. (is that correct?)
James Mohr
In article <92011...@aslan.en.open.de> cl...@aslan.en.open.de (Oliver Graf) writes:
>Americans are very often extremely fat! (No joke, I've seen lots of
>*VERY* fat people on each trip to the U.S.)
>
>Clash
Meinst Du, dass es keine fette Deutschen gibt??
Jim
David Weisberger
> What are kinds of sterotypes about Americans circulate around Germany and/or
> Europe? I really would like to hear them!
A very common stereotype I heard about when I lived in Germany (West) for a
year was that Americans are basically ignorant (arguable point).
Also, that Americans are essentially simplistic and naive, in all sorts of
respects - socially and politically (not surprising, coming from the culture
that gave us "Realpolitik"). I got the impression that this second point
is actually a common view of Americans worldwide.
There is also the derogatory "Ami," which I believe originally referred to
the American soldiers stationed in West Germany, but now is applied more
liberally. "Ami's" are rude, violent (many stories of rape), and make
no attempt to learn anything about German culture - they live in their
secluded Little Americas on army bases and make no attempt to learn German
or anything about the country.
On a lighter note, Americans supposedly can't play soccer. (Well, we can't,
but that's not the point.) The first day of track practice, we warmed up
by playing soccer. I acquitted myself well, one assist, two goals. The
verdict: "Not bad for an American." Germans also were sure that the soccer
we play in the U.S. is different - not played on grass, etc. It took a lot
of effort to convince them that in fact I had played SOCCER in the States.
(Probably they had heard about the MISL - indoor soccer.) I reminded them
about Beckenbauer, Pele, the Cosmos.
David
RNERTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPTOPCORN
O E
C David Weisberger INTERNET: djweis...@amh.amherst.edu R
C BITNET: djweisberger@amherst R
O E
RNERBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMBOTTOMCORN
James Mohr
In article <HF.92Jan...@demisec.informatik.uni-kl.de> h...@informatik.uni-kl.de (Harald Fuchs) writes:
>Another cultural sterotype: there's no such thing like beer in the US of A.
Its not a stereotype. Its the truth. 'American beer' is an oxymoron.
>American beer is like fucking in a canoe: damned near to the water.
> (Monty Python)
Sorry its:
American beer is like screwing in a canoe: fucking close to water.
jim
James Mohr
In article <1992Jan14.1...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> pmir...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Pierluigi Miraglia) writes:
>Both good points that underlie any intelligent approach to the problem
>of crime and guns.
>Remarkably, Americans cannot understand either one. According to American
>mythology, "criminals" are a particular genetic strand, a unique species of
For the decent people reading this, please execuse the following comments:
BULLSHIT!! Utter and complete bullshit! Where do you get this line of
crap. Maybe most americans in Ohio, but not the rest of the country.
Maybe since you are an Italian and logically a member of the Mafia, you
only associate with the dregs of American society, but just because
all of your friends are criminals does not mean that the rest of
America is. (Do you enjoy being victim of this kind of bullshit? If
so, I have a whole bunch of nasty Italian joke.)
>individuals who are programmed to be violent and dangerous from birth.
>They can't figure out why there seem to be so many of them just in the U.S.
>(of course, most true-blue Americans have an explanation for this: it's just
>that there are too many blacks around...)
That comment is immature and insulting!! It may just be that you're the
one who is a racist and are trying to rationalize your own bigotry by
saying that _all_ americans are bigots. Up to this point the comments
about stereotypes have been on a mature level, but you have brought it
into the gutter. When you grow up, we can talk.
>Grutzi
>Pierluigi
>--
James Mohr
In article <1992Jan14.1...@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bd...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dieter A. Schmied) writes:
>
> The US approach to criminal justice seems archaic. If 70%
>of thos that have went to jail return to jail later in this rich
>country, how come only 15% returned to jail in the former
>East Germany which failed?
It's not just the justice system. It has a great deal to do with
American family life as well. My experience with the German
Landespolizei seems to indicate that if a guy committed a crime
he should go to jail. If there were 'irregularities' in either
the arrest or the trail, these are rarely used as a reason to
set the person free. In the US (Maybe just California) the
attitude _was_ that if the arrest and try weren't done 100%
by the book, the crook got off. This has been changing in recent
years (at least in California).
Part of it has to do with what the intent is when we send someone
to jail. The basic reason is a punishment for their crimes. However,
in the US it appears to be almost retaliatory whereas in Germany
it seem to rehabilitative. This attitude has a major impact on
the prisoner's outlike and increases the likelyhood that he
will return.
A study done (I forget by who) showed that ca. 95% of the
inmates at medium to maximum security prisons had _major_
problems growing up. I don't mean simply that their parents
were divorced. I mean physical or sexual abuse, abandonment, etc.
These problems do not occur in Germany on the same scale because
of the differences in the entire family structure.
In the US a 30-year-old with his/her renting the upper floor of
his parents' house is something that is looked down upon. We see
this person as still clutching to apron strings, etc. In Germany,
this is a commonplace occurence and it not something people
think poorly of. Even if not living in the same house, the chances
are high that they will be living in the same town/county. This
is not the case in the US. People move about so much more often
in the US that they are often thousands of miles away from their
parents. This results in problems for the children.
The study I read went on about how rare emotional problems are
in children that grow up in extended families. When the parents
run into problems raising their children they can consult their
parents or even their grandparents for advice. This just doesn't
happen in the US. As a result, there are more people in the US
with emotional problems, which will often mean a higher chance
of becoming a criminal as well as passing these problems onto
their children creating a snowball effect. Because of the
proximity of family members in Germany, this situation does not
occur as much. I also saw this in Italian neighbors we had.
Does anyone have any experience with other European societies?
Jim
Pieter Hazewindus
> BTW: I think Kohl is one of the few heads of state that doesn't speak a second
> language. (is that correct?)
But he does! His second language is German. And he is trying his
best, believe me.
I think most world leaders do NOT speak a second language. I don't
think Bush does; Reagan didn't; Gorbachev didn't; Yeltsin doesn't;
Mitterand doesn't; John Major I'm not sure about, but it wouldn't
surprise me if he doesn't. It's a shame, really.
Pieter Hazewindus pie...@cs.caltech.edu
Gregor Nitsche
>On the stereotype: Germans rarely bathe.
>
>I haven't found this to be the case, but this seems to be one of the
>Norway that gets a lot of German tourists each summer, my husband reported
>that the men's showers had instructions (in German) on them. Not in
>Norwegian. Apparently the owner believed there would be some Germans
>who had never seen a shower before???
Let me suggest it was the other way round: They did not expect Norwegians
to enter the shower, anyway ... :-)))
>
>No such sign in the women's shower room, by the way.
>
>-Cindy Kandolf
> ci...@solan.unit.no
> Trondheim, Norway
Gregor Nitsche
Jon Livesey
And gross overcrowding with prisoners three to a cell, and
much of time locked in because there are not enough officers
supervise them out of their cells. More and more in the
US we hear of prisoners suing becasue of conditions in US
prisons, and judges ruling that they must be released from
overcrowded prisons. Add to that the occurance of murder,
rape and drug use in prisons.
I find it rather strange that Mr Tiffany seems to think that
US jails are attractive places to live. Actually it's not
all that strange. There is a good deal of right-wing
propaganda in then US about how "spoiled" prisoners are.
I think some people would like to go back to the days of
the chain gang and the lash.
jon.
Dieter Honscheid
Dieter
Uwe Nimscheck
>
>Here in the US, if you are a criminal, you are assumed to be a bad
>guy, and you can't get a gun legally. So you get one illegally, which
>is not too difficult. Making guns illegal today wouldn't reduce the
>number of guns in the criminals hands today. It would dry up the
>ready supply of new and legal guns to the population at large, but it
>is not at all obvious that this would ever result in a reduction of
>the number of guns in criminals' hands. (Witness cocaine: illegal,
>but plentiful, if you are a criminal.)
>--
>=Jim jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Would you please stick your guns sideways up your bum and leave them there?
You maniacs have already messed up soc.culture british and
soc.culture.autralian with this gun crap!
Why don't you stay in talk.politics.guns and leave soc.culture.* alone.
Uwe Nimscheck
--
Uwe M. Nimscheck, email : nims...@cs.unc.edu
Dept. of Computer Science, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Free University of Brussels, Dept. of Electronics and Digital Signal Processing
Volker Soffel
what second language(s) does George Bush speak?
--
Volker Soffel National Semiconductor Corporation
vol...@nsc.nsc.com Embedded Control Division Applications
(408) 721-4360 Santa Clara, CA95052
Christa Keil
Silber) says:
> BTW: I think Kohl is one of the few heads of state that doesn't speak a
> second language. (is that correct?)
Well, he speaks german and pfaelzerisch (if you can call that a language
;-)) )
Christa
--
Ich haette mir wohl besser ein Los fuer die Gluecksspirale gekauft, anstatt in
diesen wirklich miesen Film zu gehen ... (p) Michael Laub,
Christa Keil --------- Umv...@Dbnmeb1.bitnet -------- zo...@guug.de