Names of Orkney & Shetland Jarls; original name of Orkneys?
Mike Cleven
"Can you come up with the names for the sons of Jarl of Jetland from the
Old Norse Sagas ?
Also, possibly the earlier name and origins of the Orkney Islands ?"
I'm pretty sure that he means the Shetlands here, rather than
Jutland/Jylland, and of course I asked him _which_ Jarl?
By "earlier name and origins of the Orkney Islands" I'm presuming he
means the Celtic, or perhaps Pictish names, if there was one in the
latter case; which is why this is x-posted to the celtic/scots/british
NGs as well as soc.culture.nordic.
Anyone here have any comments/responses worth relaying. The gentleman
who asked is in his '70s, just finished a 4-year not-quite-solo sailing
trip around the world, and still designs yachts for a living; and has a
naturally curious mind. What the context of the discussion that
prompted the above questions is I can only imagine, and even then I have
no idea, really.....but if you do know some answers, or where to look,
please advise.....
MC
--
Mike Cleven
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects."
- Lester B. Pearson
"I'm surrounded by nincompoops!"
- Eric Von Zipper, "Beach Blanket Bingo"
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Inger E Johansson
you can come up with better than from the sagas if you use this link
for the Orkney Islands:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_soek.prl?start=S%F8k&s=n&BI
ND=&SIDE=&NR=&STED=&DATO=&FRA_AAR=0900&TIL_AAR=1200&KILDE=&KILDE_FRITEKST=on
&INGRESS=Orkn%F8erne&TEKST=&TILLEGG=&i_og_t_eller=og&med_sted=on&med_dato=on
&ingress_med=on&tekst_med=on&tillegg_med=on&konkordanse_streng=hurtigliste&s
ort_bind=1&sort_sted=2&sort_dato=3&sort_tilslag=-&sort_frekvens=4
As for the Jarl of Jutland there are many mentioned in the Sagas who either
there or in real life, documented elsewhere, are refered to as Jarl of
Jutland thus I have to ask you which period you had in mind?
Inger E
"Mike Cleven" <cleven...@telus.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:DxSja.15134$B54.1...@news1.telusplanet.net...
TomiA
news:DxSja.15134$B54.1...@news1.telusplanet.net:
> A friend asked me to find out the following for him, quoted verbatim:
>
> "Can you come up with the names for the sons of Jarl of Jetland from the
> Old Norse Sagas ?
> Also, possibly the earlier name and origins of the Orkney Islands ?"
>
> By "earlier name and origins of the Orkney Islands" I'm presuming he
> means the Celtic, or perhaps Pictish names, if there was one in the
> latter case; which is why this is x-posted to the celtic/scots/british
> NGs as well as soc.culture.nordic.
>
According to Sturluson the first jarls came from Finland. See The
Orkneyinga Saga, http://www.northvegr.org/lore/orkney/001.html
Some of them had "Finn" as their personal name even later.
In fact the question is a very fascinating one, because there is old
folklore in the Orkneys about "Finmen". It's been speculated that they may
have been the pre-Norse people of the islands. Perhaps they were Picts or
Celts, but they may have been Finns of Norway, too (Finns are Samis in
Norway nowadays). I suppose it's not altogether impossible that they were
originally from Finland, though. Perhaps Fundinn Noregr is based on a dim
recollection of a invasion in Norway and the Orkneys from the east.
The saga is usually considered a legend, but it seems that the people who
do so, don't know about the Finmen tradition in the Orkneys. Perhaps it's
also worth mentioning that in about 1200 AD (when Struluson wrote the saga)
an idea of Finnish kings or conquests wasn't considered next to impossible.
For example people like Willhelm The Conqueror (IIRC), believed that his
most ancient forefathers were Finns. The idea of insignificant Finnish
history was invented much later, mostly in the 18th and 19th centuries
along with the emerging of Swedish nationalism.
Here's an excellent site about the islands and folklore:
--
T: Tomi
Mike Cleven
> Mike,
> you can come up with better than from the sagas if you use this link
> for the Orkney Islands:
>
> http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_soek.prl?start=S%F8k&s=n&BI
> ND=&SIDE=&NR=&STED=&DATO=&FRA_AAR=0900&TIL_AAR=1200&KILDE=&KILDE_FRITEKST=on
> &INGRESS=Orkn%F8erne&TEKST=&TILLEGG=&i_og_t_eller=og&med_sted=on&med_dato=on
> &ingress_med=on&tekst_med=on&tillegg_med=on&konkordanse_streng=hurtigliste&s
> ort_bind=1&sort_sted=2&sort_dato=3&sort_tilslag=-&sort_frekvens=4
>
> As for the Jarl of Jutland there are many mentioned in the Sagas who either
> there or in real life, documented elsewhere, are refered to as Jarl of
> Jutland thus I have to ask you which period you had in mind?
Here's a clue; I got a further reply with "many thanks for the excellent
information" but the details quoted below are probably of interest to
all who have helped out:
"This all relates to a friend who is trying to trace family. Apparently
Norse that had settled in Normandy and came over to Britain in 1066 with
William. Later with Shetland and Orkney connections. I don't claim to
know anything about them, but have passed your info on for him to
persue. Many thanks indeed !"
So post-1066, via Normandy and England. More clues, maybe nothing
helpful; but he's pretty happy with the research so far anyway......
Inger E Johansson
that was the one I had in mind. did you get the mail I sent you? Nota bene
Jarl Ulf's and Estrid's sons were actually close related to both sides in
1066..... as you might see if you follow the links....
I use to tell Europe's history from their lives or from Estrid's halfbrother
the Swedish King Olof Skötkonung's life. Up to 5 years ago I used to tell
the students that all they could find in the soap Dallas they could find in
real life between 980 and 1200 in those branches of the Royal Scandinavian
tree(-s).
Inger E
"Mike Cleven" <cleven...@telus.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:hWuka.16395$B54.2...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Mike Cleven
> Mike,
> Jarl Ulf's and Estrid's sons were actually close related to both sides in
> 1066..... as you might see if you follow the links....
[bcc'ing this reply to my friend for more specificity to previous]
>
> I use to tell Europe's history from their lives or from Estrid's halfbrother
> the Swedish King Olof Skötkonung's life. Up to 5 years ago I used to tell
> the students that all they could find in the soap Dallas they could find in
> real life between 980 and 1200 in those branches of the Royal Scandinavian
> tree(-s).
I don't supppose anyone's actually _made_ a Norwegian, Swedish or Danish
TV soap-opera series/miniseries around this, have they? Sounds like
good grist for the mill.....I was more thinking of a miniseries around
Laxdaela Saga or Njallssaga, but.....
easyrunner
Jarls of Orkney and Caithness, of whom my clan, the Gunns, are descended.
"Mike Cleven" <cleven...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DxSja.15134$B54.1...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Kiyo Yamazaki
> news:DxSja.15134$B54.1...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> > A friend asked me to find out the following for him, quoted verbatim:
> > Also, possibly the earlier name and origins of the Orkney Islands ?"
A page from the site run by Sigurd Towrie.
http://www.orkneyjar.com/placenames/orkney.htm
explains that the meaning of the name, tracing the etymology to the times
antedating Norse settlement.
Of tangential interest perhaps, I have uploaded parts of a book of
translated sagas and ballads by Nora Kershaw, which includes 12 stanzas of
the "Shetland Ballad of Hildina".
(http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kyamazak/myth/norse/kershaw/Kershaw2b-shetland-h
ildina.htm)
It features the jarl of Orkney, and originally written in the Norn language.
I have also transcribed the poem in the original Norn (a
Scandinavian/Germanic dialect) plus some words list
(http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kyamazak/myth/norse/kershaw/low-shetland-ballad.
htm#pg108)