Filipino pedophiles: Romeo Jalosjos
Tchiowa
Somebody's been doing a little lying in this news group. A couple of
months ago there was a thread (in this group and others) that lasted a
week or so regarding US laws about age of consent. The main gist of the
thread was that some US states permitted girls as young as twelve to
have sex. (That wasn't true, but it was the argument that was
presented.) The argument went on further to state that because good old
Whitey wasn't protecting young girls, that was further proof that whites
are pedophiles. In the meantime, Asian countries, like the Philippines,
protect their young girls. Or so went the argument
I just got back from about a month and a half in Asia. (Thailand,
Singapore, Philippines, Hong Kong) I read an interesting article in the
asian version of Newsweek dated July 28. The article was entitled "Not
My Daughter" and chronicled the efforts of some women in the Philippines
who were combatting sexism and machoism on the part of filipinos.
One of the incidents discussed involved a filipino congressman, Romeo
Jalosjos. He's been charged with having sex with an underaged girl. He
claims he thought she was old enough. His comment was "When you do it,
do you ask for a birth certificate?"
The following is a direct quote from the article:
"Among other things, he claims that the girl was already 12 years old,
the legal age of consent when the incident occurred. (Earlier versions
of the reform bill tried but failed to raise the age for statutory rape
to 14.)"
12???? That's the legal age in the Philippines??? Who are the pedophiles
now? The nation has legally institutionalized pedophilia. And the
congress refuses to raise the age even to 14. Why? Cause at least one of
those congressman likes girls even younger than 12.
Yes sireee. It's obvious the Philippines problem with pedophilia is
because of western sex tours, ain't it?
Oh, while we're discussing filipinos attitude towards sex and respect of
women, the article also discussed that rape is a crime against chastity,
not against the woman herself. Therefore, arguing that the woman has
loose morals can gain an acquital. Sluts deserve to be raped. And 12
year old girls need sex. But it's all Whitey's fault, right???
There's been a whole lot of lying on this news group.
Bambam Q.
I'm no expert on Philippine laws, Manong Ben can you enlighten us? I've
always thought that having sex with a 16 year old was illegal, or is
this guy just trolling.
--
Pinagpipitagan,
Bambam Q.
http://www.hooked.net/~amdg85
"Reality is a major cause for stress, for those in touch with it."
*kama...@kurokuro.net
In article <33F660...@HotMail.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
Tchiowa wrote:
[cut]
> But it's all Whitey's fault, right???
Whitey isn't the only lifeform in this world, in any case go back to
history 101.
> There's been a whole lot of lying on this news group.
You are an unknown excuse for existence in this world of physical sexism.
Hear this. In the Argus newspaper, pedophilia bordered on two reasons:
1. it can occur under severe psychological distress (This world thrives
on stress) 2. it's in the genes- either which way ,is no reason for you to
discuss the subject matter. You are not a doctor nor a socio-anthropologist
nor are you really familiar with the facts sorrounding the Jalosjos case.
Hey , whatever race or country, there are going to be atrocities committed
against women of all ages and that does not in any case fall on the shoulders
of these Filipinos, who by their culture have respect for their women
most specifically because they were brought into this world by a woman
called
their mother. Don't you have one too? Each person is entitled to their opinion
of course but there is no ground rule for a person to judge others as a race,
or culture by pointing out views based on a law, a case, a negative attitude.
Nobody deserves to be raped by anyone not even by an insult. Now is that
clear enough to you. To those answering this inquiry.....oops, misjudgement
of character, go get a life somewhere else. There's just too much the world
has to offer. Try asking about the weather, ok?
C'est la vie!
kamagong-2
Benjamin L. Guadiz
> >
> > There's been a whole lot of lying on this news group.
>
> always thought that having sex with a 16 year old was illegal, or is
> this guy just trolling.
>
> --
> Pinagpipitagan,
>
> Bambam Q.
> http://www.hooked.net/~amdg85
>
> "Reality is a major cause for stress, for those in touch with it."
=============
MY TURN:
FIRST, for editorial convenience, the original poster of this thread must
produce before the SCF forum the exact thread/posted article for which he/she
is having problems with; otherwise we shall all be speculating.
We don't even know for sure if this was a multi-newsgroup posting or
a purely SCF matter.
SECOND, what are the issues which <tchiowa> wants to argue based on its
merits??? He should define it clearly instead of a rapid-fire stream
of interrogatory questions.
THIRD, under Philippine laws, there is simple rape; qualified rape AND
statutory rape. Under Philippine jurisdiction twelve (12) is the
statutory age of consent (Revised Penal Code, Article 335). The gravamen
of statutory rape is merely carnal knowledge of a woman below twelve years
of age (People v. Villegas Jr., 127 SCRA 195; People v. de la Cruz,
56 SCRA 84 and People v. Santos, 189 SCRA 25). In general, rape is the
act of having carnal knowledge of a woman by a man, forcibly and against
her will, or without conscious permission, or where permissions has been
extorted by force or fear of immediate harm (Evans v. State, 21 S.E.
2nd 336, 337, 47 Ga. App. 631). The Philippines' Revised Penal Code
Article 335 defines rape as the carnal knowledge of a woman by using
force or intimidation, or when she is deprived of reason or otherwise
unconscious, or when she is UNDER TWELVE YEARS OF AGE.
With the passage of Republic Act No. 7659 otherwise known as
"Heinous Crimes" act, lawmakers have been specially sensitive to
current issues involving NOT only chastity (Revised Penal Code,
Article 335) but more so on crimes committed against individuals.
Consequently, DEATH penalty is automatically imposed for rape with
attendant circumstances.
benjamin
bl...@ix.netcom.com
bl...@earthlink.net
rcd...@tridel.com.ph
Colton, CA 92324
USA
Tchiowa
Yoyoy wrote:
>
> In article <33F6B0...@earthlink.net>, bl...@earthlink.net says...
>
> >THIRD, under Philippine laws, there is simple rape; qualified rape AND
> >statutory rape. Under Philippine jurisdiction twelve (12) is the
> >statutory age of consent (Revised Penal Code, Article 335). The gravamen
> >of statutory rape is merely carnal knowledge of a woman below twelve years
> >of age (People v. Villegas Jr., 127 SCRA 195; People v. de la Cruz,
> >56 SCRA 84 and People v. Santos, 189 SCRA 25). In general, rape is the
> >act of having carnal knowledge of a woman by a man, forcibly and against
> >her will, or without conscious permission, or where permissions has been
> >extorted by force or fear of immediate harm (Evans v. State, 21 S.E.
> >2nd 336, 337, 47 Ga. App. 631). The Philippines' Revised Penal Code
> >Article 335 defines rape as the carnal knowledge of a woman by using
> >force or intimidation, or when she is deprived of reason or otherwise
> >unconscious, or when she is UNDER TWELVE YEARS OF AGE.
>
That's what the article said. 12 is the age of consent.
As far as rape, the article referred to the courts attitudes and
beliefs. Apparently there is a law pending before the Philippine
legislatrue that would redefine rape. Rape is currently defined as
'forced penile penetration of the vagina'. Oral or anal rape isn't rape,
according to the law, but 'sexual assault, misconduct or lasciviousness
(again, quoting from the Newsweek article).
newsweek. July 28, 1997. "Not My Daughters" by Lynette Clemetson. Read
the article if you can find it. I'd be interested in hearing comments
about the entire article.
Also, some people are missing the main point of the post. A lot of
militant anti-white filipinos on this group (not the majority, but a
loud minority) having been spouting racist crap about whites for quite
some time. This article contradicts some of their main points. How about
some discussion about that??
> Manong Ben, in reference to the above, this is my Juan dela Cruz interpretation of the
> provisions and please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Any sex act committed on a TWELVE YEAR OLD AND UNDER female is rape,
> regardless of consent. For females, twelve and above, the criteria for rape is as stated
> above, the carnal knowledge of a woman by a man, by using force or intimidation, etc.
>
> Can a man be accused of rape by his wife? I heard it is possible, but difficult to prove
> in court. It is my understanding that marriage per se is a consent to carnal knowledge.
> "Kung masakit ang ulo, humag pilitin."
> --
> Yoyoy
>
> --
> Yoyoy
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
============
MY TURN:
If by legal age we mean the age at which a person acquires
full capacity to make his contracts, deeds and transact business
or to enter into some particular form of contract, then the
age of majority commences upon the attainment of the age of
21 years (The Philippines' Civil Code, Title XV, Article 402,
Age of Majority).
That said, I have now clearly differentiated the age of
majority from the statutory rape age (12) which I posted in
an earlier SCF article.
Without further dignifying the claims of <tchi...@HotMail.com>'s
posted article pending his posting here in SCF the original
thread/posted articles for which he/she has been unable
to clearly comprehend and has even blatantly accused some
unidentified members into lying, I have identified THREE (3)
erroneous categorical statements and/or conclusions for which
I wish to rebut ..., if your honors please.
FIRST, " …The nation has legally institutionalized pedophilia …"
SECOND, "… Yes sireee. It is obvious the Philippine problem
with pedophilia is because of western sex tours,
ain't it …?"
THIRD, "… Oh while we're discussing filipinos attitude towards
sex and respect of women, the article also discussed
that rape is a crime against chastity, not against
the woman herself. Therefore, arguing that the woman
has loose morals can gain an acquittal. Sluts deserve
to be raped. And 12 year old girls need sex. But it's
all whitey's fault, right …???"
The Philippines DOES NOT and DID NOT at all legally institutionalize
pedophilia based on the premise that The Philippine legislature has
"refused" to raise the statutory age to 14 or that one of those
Congressmen likes girls even younger than 12 !!!??? On the contrary,
The Philippines' Revised Penal Code, Title Eleven, Chapter Three,
Articles 337 (Qualified Seduction), 338 (Simple Seduction), 339 (Acts
of Lasciviousness with consent of the offended party), 340 (Corruption
of Minors) and 341 (White Slave Trade), with amendments and all other
related laws deal explicitly with pedophilia and criminal offenses
against chastity with provisions of imposed penalties. An otherwise
conclusion is faulty and invalid - NO supporting premises or evidence.
There are locally-grown pedophiles in The Philippines. However, it is
also an absolute truth that an UNDETERMINED NUMBER of foreigners
(e.g., Australians, British, Americans and Canadians, amongst others,
temporarily visiting or even over-staying their legally-allowed visa
limits), has engaged in these criminal and felonious activities.
This is an endogenous and an exogenous problem as well. One can exist
without the other but for the sake of argumentation, both are
present - even to this day - in the Inang Bayan. The conclusion
"… yes sireee. The Philippine problem about pedophilia is because of
western sex tours, ain't it …???" DOES NOT adequately address the
issue that pedophilia is caused by locals AS WELL AS foreigners but
not exclusively due to one or the other and is yet another defective
and flawed conclusion which clearly elucidates the above-mentioned
poster's poor comprehension of Philippine actualities.
On the premises "… Oh while we are discussing filipinos attitude
towards sex and respect of women, the article also discussed that
rape is a crime against chastity NOT AGAINST THE WOMAN HERSELF … "
(emphasis supplied) we concur that rape is, under The Philippines'
Revised Penal Code, categorized as AGAINST CHASTITY. However, it must
be equally pointed out with sufficient importance that rape, per se,
is an unlawful criminal act committed against a woman who is,
herself, the principal INDIVIDUAL and primary victim and NOT the
classification CHASTITY. This technical detail was recognized by
lawmakers which resulted to the passage of Republic Act 7659
(Heinous Crimes Act) leading to stiff penalties including, but not
limited to, death.
Where the premise is faulty, it follows that the conclusion
"… Therefore, arguing that the woman has loose morals can get
an acquittal. Sluts deserve to be raped … xxx" is likewise defective
and invalid.
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <33F741...@HotMail.com> Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> writes:
>
>beliefs. Apparently there is a law pending before the Philippine
>legislatrue that would redefine rape. Rape is currently defined as
>'forced penile penetration of the vagina'. Oral or anal rape isn't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
rape,
>according to the law, but 'sexual assault, misconduct or
lasciviousness
>(again, quoting from the Newsweek article).
>
=====================================================================
(Many others deleted for brevity)
====================================================================
MY TURN:
It is a settled rule that for rape to be consummated, it is NOT
essential that there be a perfect, complete and full penetration
of the vagina. Mere entry of the labia or lips of the female
organ without rupture of the hymen or laceration of the vagina,
is sufficient to warrant conviction for CONSUMMATED rape.
(People v. Hangdaan, 201 SCRA 568 citing People v. Oscar,
48 Phil. 527)
Oral and anal sex acts committed by the rapist(s) against a
helpless rape victim are aggravating circumstances if committed
in connection with, or in furtherance of the rape - deviant sexual
criminal activities - which could, at the discretion of the
trial judge, further justify the imposition of a more hefty
sentence and other penalties, in accordance to law.
Yoyoy
In article <33F741...@HotMail.com>, tchi...@HotMail.com says...
>
Manong Tchiowa-wa, I hate to say it but I don't get your drift. Nor do I understand what
your bitch is all about. Your train of thought is so disorganized it is really hard to follow
the message that you want to convey. Relax, sit down, take it easy and try to organize
your thoughts before you hit those key boards.
--
Yoyoy
Shadow
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
> <I clipped my original statements to concentrate on yours>
> MY TURN:
>
> If by legal age we mean the age at which a person acquires
> full capacity to make his contracts, deeds and transact business
> or to enter into some particular form of contract, then the
> age of majority commences upon the attainment of the age of
> 21 years (The Philippines' Civil Code, Title XV, Article 402,
> Age of Majority).
>
> That said, I have now clearly differentiated the age of
> majority from the statutory rape age (12) which I posted in
> an earlier SCF article.
>
I was in fact referring to the age at which a girl can have sex. I think
that was pretty clear in the complete posting. Ability to sign a
contract doesn't have a whole lot to do with pedophilia, does it.
> Without further dignifying the claims of <tchi...@HotMail.com>'s
> posted article pending his posting here in SCF the original
> thread/posted articles for which he/she has been unable
> to clearly comprehend and has even blatantly accused some
> unidentified members into lying, I have identified THREE (3)
> erroneous categorical statements and/or conclusions for which
> I wish to rebut ..., if your honors please.
>
> FIRST, " …The nation has legally institutionalized pedophilia …"
>
> SECOND, "… Yes sireee. It is obvious the Philippine problem
> with pedophilia is because of western sex tours,
> ain't it …?"
>
> THIRD, "… Oh while we're discussing filipinos attitude towards
> sex and respect of women, the article also discussed
> that rape is a crime against chastity, not against
> the woman herself. Therefore, arguing that the woman
> has loose morals can gain an acquittal. Sluts deserve
> to be raped. And 12 year old girls need sex. But it's
> all whitey's fault, right …???"
>
> The Philippines DOES NOT and DID NOT at all legally institutionalize
> pedophilia based on the premise that The Philippine legislature has
> "refused" to raise the statutory age to 14 or that one of those
> Congressmen likes girls even younger than 12 !!!???
Oh, but they did. It is legal in the Philippines to have sex with a 12
year old girl, as long as she consents. The legislature refused to raise
the age to 14. What does that tell you? And the person I was discussing
who was charged with having sex with a girl under 12 is a congressman.
QED.
> On the contrary,
> The Philippines' Revised Penal Code, Title Eleven, Chapter Three,
> Articles 337 (Qualified Seduction), 338 (Simple Seduction), 339 (Acts
> of Lasciviousness with consent of the offended party), 340 (Corruption
> of Minors) and 341 (White Slave Trade), with amendments and all other
> related laws deal explicitly with pedophilia and criminal offenses
> against chastity with provisions of imposed penalties. An otherwise
> conclusion is faulty and invalid - NO supporting premises or evidence.
Supporting evidence was the Newsweek article along with the statements
of the congressman. He defended his actions on the basis that he thought
the girl was 12. What more do you need? While the aboved named laws may
in fact deal with pedophilia, the fact remains that the protection of
those laws ends when a girl reaches 12. Puberty or no. That's pedophilia
in the real definition. The fact that the congress won't include it in
the legal definition should tell you something.
>
> There are locally-grown pedophiles in The Philippines. However, it is
> also an absolute truth that an UNDETERMINED NUMBER of foreigners
> (e.g., Australians, British, Americans and Canadians, amongst others,
> temporarily visiting or even over-staying their legally-allowed visa
> limits), has engaged in these criminal and felonious activities.
Absolutely true. Please notice your emphasis on UNDETERMINED NUMBER. I
agree with that. The previous posters were the ones saying it was the
overwhelming majority.
> This is an endogenous and an exogenous problem as well.
Amen
> One can exist
> without the other but for the sake of argumentation, both are
> present - even to this day - in the Inang Bayan. The conclusion
> "… yes sireee. The Philippine problem about pedophilia is because of
> western sex tours, ain't it …???" DOES NOT adequately address the
> issue that pedophilia is caused by locals AS WELL AS foreigners but
> not exclusively due to one or the other and is yet another defective
> and flawed conclusion which clearly elucidates the above-mentioned
> poster's poor comprehension of Philippine actualities.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I said or missed the whole previous
thread (it raged on this news group for a couple of months earlier this
year). I agree completely that it is an internal as well as external
problem. I agree with the previous paragraph completely. I argued for
weeks that pedophilia is not a "White" problem. It was the poster's I
was arguing with who were trying to claim that virtually all of the
problem was because of Western sex tourists. The "yes siree (etc.)"
statement was made sarcastically. I didn't add an emoticon because "yes
siree" is in itself a notation of sarcasm.
>
> On the premises "… Oh while we are discussing filipinos attitude
> towards sex and respect of women, the article also discussed that
> rape is a crime against chastity NOT AGAINST THE WOMAN HERSELF … "
> (emphasis supplied) we concur that rape is, under The Philippines'
> Revised Penal Code, categorized as AGAINST CHASTITY. However, it must
> be equally pointed out with sufficient importance that rape, per se,
> is an unlawful criminal act committed against a woman who is,
> herself, the principal INDIVIDUAL and primary victim and NOT the
> classification CHASTITY. This technical detail was recognized by
> lawmakers which resulted to the passage of Republic Act 7659
> (Heinous Crimes Act) leading to stiff penalties including, but not
> limited to, death.
>
The premise isn't faulty. It's not a "technical detail" that a woman's
sexual history can be drug into court to try to justify rape. That's
been outlawed in the US. It is used as a means of intimidation to try to
stop women from reporting rape. While the victim is the woman herself
and not her chastity, nonetheless her perceived lack of chastity can be
used as a defense against the rape charge. Quoting the article "The law
does not expressly limit rape to assaults against virgins, but it
implies tht the victim's virtue is a key factor, making it tougher for
women with sexual experience to prove rape. One common legal defense
tactic is to argue that the victim had loose morals-and that her
attacker commited no crime because he did no harm to her chastity."
A change was proposed in 1988. It's still being debated and has not been
changed as of yet.
> Where the premise is faulty, it follows that the conclusion
> "… Therefore, arguing that the woman has loose morals can get
> an acquittal. Sluts deserve to be raped … xxx" is likewise defective
> and invalid.
Likewise, if the premise is correct so can be the conclusion.
You made a slanting remark about my not naming the previous posters.
First of all, I don't keep an archive of posts from several months ago.
Second, I can't possibly remember all the names. Two come quickly to
mind, but I'll keep them to myself. The purpose is not to slander
individuals.
One of those two posted a call for assasinating Western tourists and
"self-sex rapes" (I think he meant same-sex rapes, but you never know)
The other labels anyone who disagrees with him a sex tour operator or
child molester or something. The last time I argued with him he started
e-mailing my friends to tell them I was a child pornographer and he (or
one of his friends) tried contacting my employer via my headers and told
them I was using company computers to distribute porn. (Which both they
and my ISP investigated and proved he was lying.) Want their names? If
you'd been here a while you'd know them. Contact Rhett. He was here
during that period of argument. He doesn't normally agree with me but he
seems to have sufficient intellectual honesty to at least verify that
the debate happened and what it was about. I don't know if he's in
Berkeley right now (school's out) but if he is, he'll acknowledge it.
As a final comment, it was good to see someone disagree with me who
would use logic and sense (however flawed ;-)) to discuss the subject
rather than slander and obscenities.
Yoyoy
>THIRD, under Philippine laws, there is simple rape; qualified rape AND
>statutory rape. Under Philippine jurisdiction twelve (12) is the
>statutory age of consent (Revised Penal Code, Article 335). The gravamen
>of statutory rape is merely carnal knowledge of a woman below twelve years
>of age (People v. Villegas Jr., 127 SCRA 195; People v. de la Cruz,
>56 SCRA 84 and People v. Santos, 189 SCRA 25). In general, rape is the
>act of having carnal knowledge of a woman by a man, forcibly and against
>her will, or without conscious permission, or where permissions has been
>extorted by force or fear of immediate harm (Evans v. State, 21 S.E.
>2nd 336, 337, 47 Ga. App. 631). The Philippines' Revised Penal Code
>Article 335 defines rape as the carnal knowledge of a woman by using
>force or intimidation, or when she is deprived of reason or otherwise
>unconscious, or when she is UNDER TWELVE YEARS OF AGE.
Manong Ben, in reference to the above, this is my Juan dela Cruz interpretation of the
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <5t6v4n$8...@winter.news.erols.com> yo...@magellan.comedian (Yoyoy)
writes:
interpretation of the
>provisions and please correct me if I am wrong.
>
>Any sex act committed on a TWELVE YEAR OLD AND UNDER female is rape,
>regardless of consent. For females, twelve and above, the criteria for
rape is as stated
intimidation, etc.
>
>Can a man be accused of rape by his wife? I heard it is possible, but
difficult to prove
>in court. It is my understanding that marriage per se is a consent to
carnal knowledge.
>"Kung masakit ang ulo, humag pilitin."
>--
>Yoyoy
>
>
>--
>Yoyoy
>
============
MY TURN:
Manong Yoyoy, Rape talaga and rape pa rin... YESSIR !!! pero
para naman mas-mabigat ang penalty ay mas-mabuti if we
categorize it as Statutory rape with or without consent.
Meron certain states dito sa Istets where marital rape is
a criminal offense. To my understanding in cases of
seduction, abduction, acts of lasciviuosness and RAPE,
the marriage of the offender with the offended party
shall extinguish the criminal action or remit the penalty
already imposed upon him. (The Philippines' Revised Penal
Code, Article 344.)
It is MY understanding too that sexual union between
married spouses is one of the "fringe benefits",
prerogatives, "rights and privileges" thereto
appertaining ... !!! The formal act of charging
a spouse for marital rape is POSSIBLE; pero the
defendant can invoke the marriage defense.
Kung masakit ang ULO, mag-shower na lang muna.
Or, just do lambing-izing sa spouse and go
from there. Who knows???!!! :-)
Tchiowa
Bambam Q. wrote:
> I'm no expert on Philippine laws, Manong Ben can you enlighten us? I've
> always thought that having sex with a 16 year old was illegal, or is
> this guy just trolling.
>
> --
> Pinagpipitagan,
>
> Bambam Q.
> http://www.hooked.net/~amdg85
>
> "Reality is a major cause for stress, for those in touch with it."
Sorry, not trolling. Legitimate question/complaint. This group has from
time to time been littered by articles about "a white gene for
pedophilia" and all about how "Western pedophiles" and "Western sex
tourists" drive the sex industry in the Philippines and that something
like 3/4 of all sex arrests in the Philippines are whites, etc. One fool
was actively promoting assasinating Western tourists a month or so ago.
Another claimed that when the US left Clark it put the majority of
prostitutes out of work.
But this particular thread involved the allegation that one state in the
US (Massachusetts???) didn't have a specific law about statutory rape
(it had used common law definitions meaning 18 years old but eventually
passed a specific law) that this helped prove that whites were prone to
pedophilia. Turns out the Philippines has a specific law defining the
age of consent as 12 (an article further on in this thread quotes the
exact law). There had been a lot of pontificating and accusations about
whites being perverts and I find it interesting that those people who
were making the accusations and supporting the thread were misleading
all of us.
Understand something. This was not intended as a flame against
filipinos. It was intended as a flame against the small group of
filipinos on this group who want to blame whites for all of everyone's
problems. Specifically all of the Philippines problems. IMO everyone is
pretty much the same. Whites are no better than browns are no better
than blacks are no better than whites, etc. etc.
Tchiowa
The article in Newsweek was discussing a proposed law that would change
that and allow for marital rape to be considered a crime.
> Kung masakit ang ULO, mag-shower na lang muna.
> Or, just do lambing-izing sa spouse and go
> from there. Who knows???!!! :-)
>
Tchiowa
My drift is pretty simple. For months a small group of what I consider
to be militant and racists filipinos has been using this NG to bash
whites and try to blame all the social ills in the Philippines on
whites. I picked on this particular issue because it's commonly
discussed on this NG and because I just stumbled across an article that
shows that some of those militants have been lying through their teeth.
My drift is that neither American nor Philippine society is perfect. My
drift is that neither can blame their problems on the other. My drift is
that those racists who choose to toss their idiotic views out on this
group need to be exposed for what they are.
Tchiowa
Tikbalang wrote:
>
> >Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com>
> >Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:16:22 -0700
> >Message-ID: <33F73F...@HotMail.com>wrote:
> understand you better.
What possible difference could that make?
Tikbalang
Tchiowa
Rhett Valino Pascual wrote:
>
> In article <33F7CB...@HotMail.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
> >whites. I picked on this particular issue because it's commonly
> >discussed on this NG and because I just stumbled across an article that
> >shows that some of those militants have been lying through their teeth.
>
> start naming names so that they and their attorneys can defend or deny the
> accusations. Merely giving vague references to them will do you no good
> in facing the fire of innocence or guilt.
There was a whole thread for weeks. Forget that already, did you? Want a
name of someone who was saying that Westerners are pedophiles? How about
your buddy Paul? Want a name of someone who was calling for Western
tourists to be murdered? How about Timothy? Are you trying to claim you
didn't see those posts? Are you trying to claim or imply that you have
seen a hundred similar posts from Paul?
>
> >My drift is that neither American nor Philippine society is perfect. My
> >drift is that neither can blame their problems on the other. My drift is
> >that those racists who choose to toss their idiotic views out on this
> >group need to be exposed for what they are.
>
> Well, I can sure blame some philippine problems on american policy towards
> the philippines. Let's see, without thinking too hard, i would say the
> following could be blamed on us policy:
>
> 1. dictatorship of marcos would have collapsed without the support of
> united states.
And dictatorship of Japan would have stayed without US support.
> 2. subic bay environmental pollution due to sloppy spills of petroleum
> products.
And Cebu pollution in its shipping ports due to Philippine neglect.
> 3. strip mining of mountains for digging gold leads to cyanide
> contamination of water wells.
Which continues to this day due to Philippine policy.
Point being, as I said, neither society is perfect. If you'll recall,
and as I said during this thread, some people were blaming ALL of some
problems, specifically child prostitution and prostitution in general,
on Westerners. This Newsweek article proved some of those statements
false.
>
> As for racists, that is a serious accusation and if I were you, I would
> start naming the supposed racists. otherwise, you just throw accusations
> without having to prove that certain individuals are as you say.
>
Again, your buddy Paul is the prime example. But he's far from the only
one. By definition anyone who claims either superiority or inferiority
of a particular race is a racist. Anyone who tries to claim that Whites
are better than Filipinos is a racist. Anyone who tries to claim and
Whites are inferior to Filipinos is a racist. Anyone who claims that
Filipinos are lazy, dishonest, whores, etc. is a racist. Anyone who
claims that Westerners are pedophiles, perverts, thieves, etc. is a
racist. Reason? They are using race as their point of identification.
Which makes them racists. It also makes them wrong.
You've got access to a University computer which should store a much
larger archive than my ISP. Look up the thread which included the phrase
about a "white gene for pedophilia". You'll see exactly what I'm talking
about. I'll bet there were at least a hundred posts in that thread.
Do yourself another favor. Don't sit here and try to pretend that you
don't recall that thread and those similar. You participated in some of
them (I don't recall your specific comments) and you were on the group
discussing other things while that thread and similar threads raged for
weeks.
> REtong
> --
Tchiowa
Riley wrote:
>
> these militant group of filipinos are just trying to cover up for their
> own defects - they themselves are guilty of pedophilia - it is rampant in
> the country - reason for its teeming population. ask the priests - what
> have they been doing about these - the politicians, etc. etc. - the
> parents, the fathers, all those brothel houses - where is the pride of the
> filipino? their double standard male - achievement there is how many more
> they sired not what they achieved in terms of quality of lifestyle.
Do me a favor. When I post a complaint where, among other things, I
oppose racist stereotypes, don't try to support the post with a racist
stereotype of your own. Filipinos are no more (and no less) prone to
pedophilia than anybody else. It's not "rampant" in their country. It
probably exists a little more there than other places because it's
legal. Some people in the US, for example, who might be prone to
pedophilia avoid the actions because they could land in jail. So there
may be a higher percentage of "acting pedophiles" in the Philippines but
the tendency toward pedophilia (or any other thought, action, etc.) is
no higher there than elsewhere.
John J. Cristobal
On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Tchiowa wrote:
> Jun B. wrote:
> > Wow! The country is teeming with pedos and child-prostitutes. All
> > this based on what -- the conviction of one now-former congressman.
> > That's one man in a country of -- what! 65 MILLION?! -- oh yeah!
> > we're teeming with pedos here in the Philippines. Imagine: one in
> > every 65 million Filipinos is a confirmed pedophile, or about a
> > 0000016% probability that the friendly neighborhood mailman is a
> > pedo. Omigosh! my children aren't safe! I better keep them indoors
> > when the mailman's coming!
> Excellent idea. Distort the original thought into something absurd,
> point out that it's absurd, and that way you can dismiss the original
> thought. While you're correct in your sarcastically made point (I'm not
> knocking the sarcasm, just acknowledging it) that one congressman, or
> even 1,000 individuals, in a country of 65 million is statistically
> meaningingless, you're missing (or choosing to ignore) the main point.
[putol]
Hay Jun, huwag mo nang pag-aksayahan ng panahon iyan. Nagdudunung-dunungan
lang iyan. Naalala mo ba yung bigla niyang pagsunggab dito sabay ang
matalas na "Yesssireee..." niya? Walang pakundangan na para bang alam
na ang lahat at tama palagi. Porke ba may "Computer Science", "Physics"
(o ano pa man) na natapos ang isang tao ay hindi ibig sabihin na alam
niya na ang lahat o tama palagi. Napansin mo rin ba na ayaw ibigay ang
tunay na panga-lan niya? Pati yung lahi niya nang tanungin siya, ni ayaw
ibunyag. Marahil kulang lang sa pansin.
Parang nagpapakitang-gilas lang yata, e. Huwag mo na lang pansinin.
Masasayang lang ang pagod mo sa pagmamakinilya.
--John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jcris...@digitalmarket.com
udu0...@email.sjsu.edu www.mathcs.sjsu.edu/student/cris1154
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Riley
LET'S PLACE THIS - THE COUNTRY IS TEEMING WITH PEDOPHILES AND
CHILD-PROSTITUTES !! ASK THAT FROM CARDINAL SIN - OR IS IT REALLY
SUPPOSED THE ONLY CATHOLIC COUNTRY IN THE FAR EAST ?? UGH WHAT A DOUBLE
STANDARD OF A COUNTRY - THEY CONDONE SUCH ACTIVITIES IN THEIR MIDST...
> Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote in article
<33F660...@HotMail.com>...
> Yes sireee. It's obvious the Philippines problem with pedophilia is
> because of western sex tours, ain't it?
>
> Oh, while we're discussing filipinos attitude towards sex and respect of
> women, the article also discussed that rape is a crime against chastity,
> not against the woman herself. Therefore, arguing that the woman has
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <33FB69...@HotMail.com> Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> writes:
>
>Jun B. wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>Pedophilia is LEGAL in the Philippines. The age of consent is 12. A
>large percentage of girls have not entered puberty at 12. Over half
are
>either just going through puberty or have not begun. Yet it is legal
for
>them to have consent to sex. Had the little girls that Jolosjos was
>screwing been 12 instead of 11 (or whatever she was) it would have
been
>perfectly legal. And the Philippine congress refused to raise the age
to
>14 when the bill was presented this year. Doesn't that bother you?
==============
MY TURN:
Cite me a Philippine law or laws expressly nullifying the illegality
of pedophilia. Cite me also a judicial ruling by ANY competent
Philippine court of law where a known or alleged pedophile was found
NOT guilty of pedophilia due to, or as a result of, the absence of
such laws - NOT on any technicality or procedural deficiencies.
(In an earlier article which I posted in SCF, I cited provisions
of the Revised Penal Code and an amending Republic Act 7659;
court cases and a provision in the Civil Code expressly citing
the age of majority vis-à-vis age of statutory rape WITH or WITHOUT
consent !!! While you are entitled to your personal opinions,
it must be considered that the above-cited facts have MORE validity,
credibility and due merit than your having cited a Newsweek article
which has NOT even been reproduced in part or its entirety here
in this forum.)
Please DO NOT subject yourself to the contemptuous derision of
SCFers worldwide who know better than your repeated assertion that
pedophilia is LEGAL (???) in the Philippines based on a Newsweek
article or because of Congress' "refusal" (???) to raise the limit
to 14, or of a Representative who is currently facing criminal
charges for allegedly having raped a minor. I dare NOT subject
myself to that ordeal - I KNOW !!! Even an aspiring L-1 in any
of the Colleges of Law in the Philippines cannot miss this
factuality.
I have NO idea whatsoever on the extent of your exposure to
Argumentation and Debate; or the laws of The Philippines in
regards to these matters. It appears that you are proving to the
contrary my presumption you are well-versed in these matters.
If so, may I point you to the correct manner of aggressively
responding to this herein posted SCF article.
===================
HERE'S MY ADVICE FOR YOU:
"… Oral arguments almost always illuminate the turgid prose
of briefs. In a Socratic dialogue, each opposing side is
required, under judicial questioning, to overcome the
weakest points of his case and to respond to the strongest
point of the other side …"
Judge Robert Satter: DOING JUSTICE
American Lawyer Books/Simon & Schuster
New York, NY 1990
ABSTRACT: Construct a linkage between pedophilia (as defined)
and statutory rape with or without consent of the minor.
Cite PHILIPPINE LAWS not any common laws or US statutes.
====================
To make this as an "overkill" allow me to cite the following
Philippines cases, to wit …,
1. Consent of victim of tender years is NOT a defense in rape.
(People v. Conchada, 86 SCRA 683)
2. "… The fact that the victim may have consented DOES NOT
extinguish the criminal liability of the accused. For
where the offended parties are less than twelve years old,
rape is committed although there was consent to the sexual
intercourse. The law does not consider that kind of consent
voluntary and presumes that the offended party does not and
cannot have a will of her own; and if she has not been
seduced by intimidation or force, she has been deceived
by the unchaste machination of her corruption …"
(People v. Villamor, [CA] 37 OG 947)
Leonardo Reyes: The Law on Rape
National Bookstore
Manila, The Philippines 1994
DO YOU KNOW THE STRONGEST POINTS and/or ARGUMENTS OF THIS
POSTED ARTICLE OR MY ARTICLES PREVIOUSLY POSTED ???
If so, respond scholarly. DO NOT OBFUSCATE !!!
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <33FB69...@HotMail.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
>Pedophilia is LEGAL in the Philippines. The age of consent is 12. A
Can you explain this to me again?
**********
Pedophilia is legal in the philippines.
Jalosjos diddled with a girl. He was accused of pedophilia.
Jalosjos is in jail.
********
If pedophilia was legal, why is Jalosjos in jail?
REtong
--
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <33FBA3...@HotMail.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
>Riley wrote:
>> these militant group of filipinos are just trying to cover up for their
>> own defects - they themselves are guilty of pedophilia - it is rampant in
>
>oppose racist stereotypes, don't try to support the post with a racist
>stereotype of your own. Filipinos are no more (and no less) prone to
Heheheheheh. You know, as far as I can remember, whenever Paul says
something about american society, he backs it up with a newspaper account
or it is an acknowledged historical event.
Now, if you want my criteria for separating Paul from racists, just look
at what Riley has written. First, he rarely writes here. Then he writes
something that is blatantly racist.
REtong
--
Tchiowa
Right and wrong, Rhett. First of all, Paul backs his statements up with
articles dredged from the fringes of the media. To say that he's "backs
it up with a newspaper account" implies that he's not a racist, merely
reporting somewhat controversial facts. If I start posting crap from the
KKK newsletter or some red neck paper that says the Holocause never
happened, is that just "backing it up with a newspaper account or an
acknowledged historical event"? Not hardly.
You are right that what Riley said was racist. You notice I immediately
challenged his statements even though they were intended to support my
point. I don't need racism or racists to help me out. I don't support
racists in anything they say. Your support of Paul, even slantingly, is
rather disappointing.
Riley is a racist. I oppose him. You oppose him.
Paul is a racist. I oppose him. What's your stand?
Tchiowa
Jun B. wrote:
>
> On 21 Aug 1997 03:52:02 GMT, bl...@ix.netcom.com(BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ)
> wrote:
>
> :MY TURN:
> :
> :Cite me a Philippine law or laws expressly nullifying the illegality
> :of pedophilia. Cite me also a judicial ruling by ANY competent
> :Philippine court of law where a known or alleged pedophile was found
> :NOT guilty of pedophilia due to, or as a result of, the absence of
> :such laws - NOT on any technicality or procedural deficiencies.
> :DO YOU KNOW THE STRONGEST POINTS and/or ARGUMENTS OF THIS
> :POSTED ARTICLE OR MY ARTICLES PREVIOUSLY POSTED ???
> :
> :If so, respond scholarly. DO NOT OBFUSCATE !!!
>
> the face of your argumentative assault. Even I was floored by it, so
> I can imagine how quickly TchiowapBamBoom will tuck his tail between
> his legs and hightail out of this particular thread, if not from SCF
> as a whole.
> ----
>
> Jun B.
> bai...@interlog.com
I guess you should have read the whole article that he posted before you
gloated. He contradicted himself. He admitted that 12 is the age of
consent. Read his WHOLE post.
My, my you look silly with your tail in that position.
Tchiowa
Because the girls was under 12. Had she been 12 he would be sitting in a
bar laughing about it with his buddies.
Maybe it's a matter of definition. I consider having sex with a 12 year
old as constituting pedophilia. Do you? It's legal in the Philippines.
>
> 2. "ů The fact that the victim may have consented DOES NOT
> extinguish the criminal liability of the accused. For
> where the offended parties are less than twelve years old,
> rape is committed although there was consent to the sexual
> intercourse. The law does not consider that kind of consent
> voluntary and presumes that the offended party does not and
> cannot have a will of her own; and if she has not been
> seduced by intimidation or force, she has been deceived
> by the unchaste machination of her corruption ů"
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <33fded20...@snews.zippo.com>,
NOBODY <kano...@mosquitonet.com> wrote:
>Rhett, come on now you are much more intelligent than this. Defending
>this statement is unwarranted association. You are keen with
>reversing sentences and replacing words so as to decypher character
>and I find your comment on this surprising.
I frankly don't care whether people associate me with Paul. It is true
that in the past he has been lose with his methodology. However, in the
present (starting with the pre-July 4 posts) I haven't had any problems
with his postings. As I have said before, I know Paul's views come from
the left. Mike Ward is also a liberal. However, I have the intelligence
to know that Paul and Mike aren't exactly on the same platform. If people
have problems understanding this, they ought to get a brain. I have a
hard enough time defending my accusations and my thoughts without having
to worry about other people's thoughts and opinions. As I have said time
and again, if you have a problem with Paul, take it up with him. When I
have problems with Paul, that's what I do.
>Oh, but you defend the posters that drug it on and on...Paul & Tim. I
>can not conceive of you know knowing the nature of those you align
>youself with. Of course maybe this is a mistaken comment because on
Since I killed that thread, I don't know who participated in it. Thus, my
defense of Paul and Tim are based on other threads which I read. Is it my
fault that they find it amusing to torture all the white males with guilt
complexes?
REtong
--
Tchiowa
Rhett Valino Pascual wrote:
<parts snipped for space>
> I frankly don't care whether people associate me with Paul. It is true
> that in the past he has been lose with his methodology.
I never pictured you as the master of the understatement until now.
> However, in the
> present (starting with the pre-July 4 posts) I haven't had any problems
> with his postings.
Other than the fact that they are intentionally inflammatory and
demonstrably false?
> As I have said before, I know Paul's views come from
> the left.
To say that Paul's view is from the left is like saying that whales are
sort of large.
> Mike Ward is also a liberal. However, I have the intelligence
> to know that Paul and Mike aren't exactly on the same platform. If people
> have problems understanding this, they ought to get a brain. I have a
> hard enough time defending my accusations and my thoughts without having
> to worry about other people's thoughts and opinions. As I have said time
> and again, if you have a problem with Paul, take it up with him. When I
> have problems with Paul, that's what I do.
>
> Is it my
> fault that they find it amusing to torture all the white males with guilt
> complexes?
>
I don't know. Is it your fault that you dismiss racism with a flippant
remark? I'm not sure of Mike's views (I simply don't recall them) but
Paul's are anti-White which is ever bit as racist as anti-Black,
anti-Brown, anti-Jew, etc.
> REtong
> --
Riley
these militant group of filipinos are just trying to cover up for their
own defects - they themselves are guilty of pedophilia - it is rampant in
have they been doing about these - the politicians, etc. etc. - the
parents, the fathers, all those brothel houses - where is the pride of the
filipino? their double standard male - achievement there is how many more
they sired not what they achieved in terms of quality of lifestyle.
> Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote in article
<33F7CB...@HotMail.com>...
> Yoyoy wrote:
> >
> > In article <33F741...@HotMail.com>, tchi...@HotMail.com says...
> > >
> >
> > Manong Tchiowa-wa, I hate to say it but I don't get your drift. Nor do
I understand what
> > your bitch is all about. Your train of thought is so disorganized it
is really hard to follow
> > the message that you want to convey. Relax, sit down, take it easy
and try to organize
> > your thoughts before you hit those key boards.
> > --
> > Yoyoy
>
> My drift is pretty simple. For months a small group of what I consider
> to be militant and racists filipinos has been using this NG to bash
> whites and try to blame all the social ills in the Philippines on
> whites. I picked on this particular issue because it's commonly
> discussed on this NG and because I just stumbled across an article that
> shows that some of those militants have been lying through their teeth.
>
Jun B.
On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:03:09 -0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com>
wrote:
:Jun B. wrote:
:>
:> Wow! The country is teeming with pedos and child-prostitutes. All
:> this based on what -- the conviction of one now-former congressman.
:> That's one man in a country of -- what! 65 MILLION?! -- oh yeah!
:> we're teeming with pedos here in the Philippines. Imagine: one in
:> every 65 million Filipinos is a confirmed pedophile, or about a
:> 0000016% probability that the friendly neighborhood mailman is a
:> pedo. Omigosh! my children aren't safe! I better keep them indoors
:> when the mailman's coming!
:
:Excellent idea. Distort the original thought into something absurd,
:point out that it's absurd, and that way you can dismiss the original
:thought. While you're correct in your sarcastically made point..., you're
:missing (or choosing to ignore) the main point.
:
:Pedophilia is LEGAL in the Philippines. The age of consent is 12. A
:large percentage of girls have not entered puberty at 12. Over half are
:either just going through puberty or have not begun. Yet it is legal for
:them to have consent to sex. Had the little girls that Jolosjos was
:screwing been 12 instead of 11 (or whatever she was) it would have been
:perfectly legal. And the Philippine congress refused to raise the age to
:14 when the bill was presented this year. Doesn't that bother you?
Last I heard, it is still considered rape when someone forces
themselves sexually on a minor, a minor being anyone below the age of
18 (or is it 21?). Manong Ben Guadiz already gave an exhaustive
explanation of this "age of consent of 12" bit. I suggest you read
it. And if you can't find it on your news server, there's always Deja
News.
:We're talking about Philippine laws
:which condone and in fact permit pedophilia. That's the main point. Why
:do fear addressing that?
Again, look for Manong Ben's legal explanation.
:> Shame on the tourists who want to
:> exploit other people's children to fulfill their sick desires, and
:> shame on those who would snatch children from their families to foist
:> on these perverts and then discard them as trash when they themselves
:> were to blame. Oh, people like this should be lined up, buried in the
:> ground beside a fire ant hill, and then have honey poured over them.
:
:The guy you flamed was absolutely out of line for trying to accuse the
:Philippines and Filipinos of being perverts (or whatever) based on the
:actions of a few people out of 65 million. You are equally out of line
:for doing exactly the same thing in implying that tourists are the
:problem.
:
:Prostitution and pedophilia and all the assorted perversions that go
:along with them are a domestic problem. That pertains to the US and the
:Philippines and Madagascar and every where else.
Did I say all tourists? I clearly said "the tourists who want to
exploit other people's children to fulfill their sick desires", didn't
I? Does this mean that I'm blaming you for the problem just because
you visited the Philippines to admire Mayon Volcano or Taal Volcano or
to experience snorkeling in Boracay or Puerto Galera? NO! However, I
do blame "tourists" who venture into the Philippines to search for the
"scummy underside" that is present in ANY country to satisfy their
twisted desires.
I'm surprised that you didn't see that. You must have decided to jump
all over me for the word "tourist" and failed to realize that it was
the full description that I was ranting about -- not just "tourists".
Do try to slow down a bit, guy.
----
Jun B.
bai...@interlog.com
johnn...@hotmail.antispam.com
Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote in article
<33FCFE...@HotMail.com>...
> BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
>
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> Wonderfully well written and I believe correct. But you're either
> missing or ignoring the main point. You refer to consent and the age of
> majority, etc.
>
> THE AGE OF CONSENT IN THE PHILIPPINES IS 12!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> So all the laws against pedophilia, requiring mature consent, etc. stop
> protecting children when the reach the age of 12. Do you deny that?
>
It all boils down to this: when does a person cease to become a child and
reach the age of adolescent? There is no fixed age for this. Some girls
reach puberty at nine, some at fifteen.
Just because the Phil. has a younger age of consent than you would care to
agree does not mean that paedophilia is legal in that country.
Johnny
Tchiowa
It depends on how you define pedophilia. The fact is, as you mentioned,
some girls don't reach puberty until 15. Every country I've ever been in
makes it a crime to have sex with a girl under 15 (most say 18, a few as
young as 15) with the exception of the Philippines. I call having sex
with a 12 year old child pedophilia. I call it wrong. I say it should be
illegal. If you don't think it's pedophilia, that's your call. But stay
away from the kids in my neighborhood.
Tchiowa
Jun B. wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:54:10 -0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com>
> wrote:
>
> :True, if you "force" yourself on someone of ANY age it's rape. But if
> :the little 12 year old kiddie says OK, it's legal. At least in the
> :Philippines.
>
> Funny thing, though. You replied to Manong Ben's article where he
> cited sections in the Revised Penal Code of the Philippines that dealt
> with sex with a consenting minor (I believe he termed it as "Acts of
> Lasciviousness with Consent of the Offended Party", among others).
> Yet you conveniently ignored it and just cited the volume and issue
> number of the Newsweek article you read.
>
> Does this mean that, by not arguing these points, you are tacitly
> agreeing with them? I mean, if you had disagreed with him on the fact
> that there are sections in the Penal Code dealing with pedophilia, you
> would have brought them up then, right? But since you didn't, it
> implies that you agree that Manong Ben has a point. So why are you
> ranting about the Philippines legalizing pedophilia?
>
> Also, I'm not a Newsweek subscriber and don't read Newsweek as a whole
> (I prefer Maclean's -- Canada, ey?) so I would appreciate if you, as
> Manong Ben has requested, repost that article you cited where it said
> that pedophilia was legal in my country.
>
> We shall await your turn.
>
> P.S. Manong Ben, if you would be so kind, please post the excerpts
> from the Revised Penal Code of the Philippines dealing with
> pedophilia, para na rin malaman ng grupo. Specifically, citing from
> your post...
>
> >The Philippines' Revised Penal Code, Title Eleven, Chapter Three,
> >Articles 337 (Qualified Seduction), 338 (Simple Seduction), 339 (Acts
> >of Lasciviousness with consent of the offended party), 340 (Corruption
> >of Minors) and 341 (White Slave Trade)
>
> Jun B.
> bai...@interlog.com
Did you not read the full text of the laws and other legal precedents
cited? The age of consent was quoted as 12. Therefore sex with someone
12 years old is legal. In my mind and I think in the minds of most
people, that's pedophilia. That's what I cited in the very first post.
The laws in the Philippines legalize pedophilia by ending the legal
protection of minors when then turn 12.
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <33fd958c...@testnews.interlog.com> ju...@pathcom.com (Jun B.)
writes:
>On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:54:10 -0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com>
>wrote:
>
>:
>
>P.S. Manong Ben, if you would be so kind, please post the excerpts
>from the Revised Penal Code of the Philippines dealing with
>pedophilia, para na rin malaman ng grupo. Specifically, citing from
>your post...
>
>>The Philippines' Revised Penal Code, Title Eleven, Chapter Three,
>>Articles 337 (Qualified Seduction), 338 (Simple Seduction), 339 (Acts
>>of Lasciviousness with consent of the offended party), 340
(Corruption
>>of Minors) and 341 (White Slave Trade)
>----
>
>Jun B.
>bai...@interlog.com
==========
MY TURN:
ARTICLE 337 Qualified Seduction:
The seduction of a virgin over 12 years and under
18 years of age, committed by any person in public
authority, priest, home-servant, domestic, guardian,
teacher, or any person who, in any capacity, shall be
entrusted with the education or custody of the woman
seduced, shall be punished by prision correccional in
its minimum and medium periods.
The penalty next higher in degree shall be imposed upon
any person who shall seduce his sister or descendant,
whether or not she is a virgin or over 18 years of age.
Under the provisions of this chapter seduction is committed
when the offender has carnal knowledge of any of the persons
and under the circumstances described herein.
ARTICLE 338 Simple Seduction:
The seduction of a woman who is single or a widow of
good reputation, over 12 but under 18 years of age,
committed by means of deceit shall be punished by arresto mayor.
ARTICLE 339 Acts of Lasciviousness with the consent of the
offended party:
The penalty of arresto mayor shall be imposed to punish any
other acts of lasciviousness committed by the same persons
and under the same circumstances as those provided in
Articles 337 and 338.
ARTICLE 340 Corruption of Minors:
Any person who shall promote or facilitate
the prostitution or corruption of persons underage to
satisfy the lust of another, shall be punished by
prision mayor and if the culprit is a public officer
or employee, including those in government-owned
or controlled corporations, he shall also suffer the
penalty of temporary absolute disqualification.
ARTICLE 341 White Slave Trade:
The penalty of prision correccional in its medium
and maximum periods shall be imposed upon any person who,
in any manner, or under any pretext, shall engage in the
business or shall profit by prostitution or shall enlist
the services of any other for the purpose of prostitution.
Tchiowa ..., with or without consent on a 12 year old or
younger, that's statutory rape. Bear in mind that anytime
pedophilia exists, nothing can totally prevent the occurrence
of sex with minors (compared with the majority age of 21)
for which no prosecuting fiscal in the Philippines can fail
to charge criminal wrongdoing against a suspected pedophile.
All these corruption or contributing towards the corruption
of minors, acts of lasciviousness, indecency, immoral public
acts, and other acts against minors can and will be utilized
as aggravating circumstances; or possibly even another
criminal accusation against a pedophile.
If a competent fiscal has to file an information against you
(CONTRARY TO LAW) in a court of law in the Philippines, it shall
be done so and only TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW !!!
Now, can you cite ANY Philippine law; any court case or any
judicial ruling or even an opinion which says explicitly that
there are NO laws against pedophilia in The Philippines or
that the law ALLOWS pedophilia to exist legally in The Philippines???
FYI, there are multitudes of respected and decent people here in
SCF who know what they are talking about. For you to assert otherwise,
please ..., be kind to yourself. WE NEED NOT TELL YOU WHO WE ARE;
BUT BY OUR POSTINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW, OR ARE IN A POSITION TO KNOW
WHAT WE KNOW !!!
I certainly hope you have been enlightened considerably.
I rest my case ...
Thank you.
P.A. Watters
Paul Kekai Manansala (pmana...@csus.edu) wrote:
: But the proof is in the pudding. How do teen pregnancy and abortion
: rates compare between the Philippines and the U.S. or the West? What
: about the rate of single mothers. Why did the first pedophile network
: cracked in the Philippines originate in Australia rather than from home?
One of the reasons that paedophiles from Australia have been so
publicly identified has been the recent legislation passed in
Australia which provides that Australian citizens who commit these
crimes overseas (e.g., Philippines) can be tried under Australian
law for the crime. I think this indicates that Australian government
is being pro-active in catching these criminals, rather than
indicating a higher prevalence of paedophiles in Australia per se.
Just my 2 piso worth...
Paul
Tchiowa
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
> Tchiowa ..., with or without consent on a 12 year old or
> younger, that's statutory rape. Bear in mind that anytime
> pedophilia exists, nothing can totally prevent the occurrence
> of sex with minors (compared with the majority age of 21)
> for which no prosecuting fiscal in the Philippines can fail
> to charge criminal wrongdoing against a suspected pedophile.
> All these corruption or contributing towards the corruption
> of minors, acts of lasciviousness, indecency, immoral public
> acts, and other acts against minors can and will be utilized
> as aggravating circumstances; or possibly even another
> criminal accusation against a pedophile.
>
> If a competent fiscal has to file an information against you
> (CONTRARY TO LAW) in a court of law in the Philippines, it shall
> be done so and only TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW !!!
>
> Now, can you cite ANY Philippine law; any court case or any
> judicial ruling or even an opinion which says explicitly that
> there are NO laws against pedophilia in The Philippines or
> that the law ALLOWS pedophilia to exist legally in The Philippines???
>
Uh, unless I'm mistaken you just did. Most people everywhere would
consider sex with a prepubescent 12 year old as pedophilia. You just
said it wasn't rape in the Philippines. It is in the US and most other
countries in the world.
> FYI, there are multitudes of respected and decent people here in
> SCF who know what they are talking about. For you to assert otherwise,
> please ..., be kind to yourself. WE NEED NOT TELL YOU WHO WE ARE;
> BUT BY OUR POSTINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW, OR ARE IN A POSITION TO KNOW
> WHAT WE KNOW !!!
>
I agree, there are tons of decent wonderful people in this newsgroup.
The overwhelming majority of Filipinoes are decent people. As are the
overwhelming majority of Americans. I'm talking about the law, or law
thereof, in the Philippines. Why is the age of consent 12? Doesn't that
constitute legalized pedophilia? Why not change the law to 15-18 like
pretty much the rest of the world?
Tchiowa
AC21209 wrote:
>
> Paul K. Manansala stated:
>
> "Okay, but I wonder if a Japanese paedophile network was caught flying
> Australian boys to Japanese resorts in the same way. Most of us
> could imagine how the Western press would go off. Everybody and
> their sister would be analyzing Japanese society. "
>
> How incredibly true! I couldn't agree with you more, Paul.
>
> It is insanely strange how the media would treat this type of situation.
> Now, there are probably those who would think that this is absurd, but
> look at how the media treated those Chinamen who donated money to Bill
> Clinton. It was as if no other shady deals had ever been made to the
> Presidency by whites or any other group of people.
>
> ************************************
> ac2...@aol.com
> a member of the Project P Development Team
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
A couple of months ago when a Japanese pedophile network was caught
flying into the Philippines to molest children the majority of the
postings on this newsgroup blamed "The West". Seems like we have a
double standard here. Everything is the fault of "The West". Now you're
inventing situations, inventing the result, and using that to point out
what's wrong with "The West".
You boys need some help.
Tchiowa
AC21209 wrote:
>
> Tchiowa wrote:
>
> "As are the overwhelming majority of Americans. I'm talking about the law,
> or law thereof, in the Philippines. Why is the age of consent 12? Doesn't
> that constitute legalized pedophilia? Why not change the law to 15-18 like
> pretty much the rest of the world?"
>
> doesn't the rest of the world lower their age of consent to 12 like the
> Philippines? Why not 12? Already you have assumed that anyone who is
> having sex with a 12yo is a pedophile. What about the cases where the
> 12yo is having sex with someone of their own age group? Are we to
> automatically prosecute them as well?
>
> The age of consent law (as it pertains in US law) is written to even
> prosecute the 16yo boy who has sex with a 14yo girl. Is this pedophilia?
>
> The Philippines is it's own republic and has the right to create laws that
> befit its' own society, regardless of how you or I may feel about it here
> in the US. Simply because US law is written one way does not require
> other countries to do the same.
> ************************************
> ac2...@aol.com
> a member of the Project P Development Team
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You're absolutely right. The Philippines has a right to make it's own
laws. Unfortunately, they've seen fit to legalize what most people would
consider pedophilia. You don't think that's wrong? Is there something
about your desires that you'd like to share with us?
johnn...@hotmail.antispam.com
Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote in article
<33FDE5...@HotMail.com>...
>
> It depends on how you define pedophilia. The fact is, as you mentioned,
> some girls don't reach puberty until 15. Every country I've ever been in
> makes it a crime to have sex with a girl under 15 (most say 18, a few as
> young as 15) with the exception of the Philippines. I call having sex
> with a 12 year old child pedophilia. I call it wrong. I say it should be
> illegal. If you don't think it's pedophilia, that's your call. But stay
> away from the kids in my neighborhood.
>
You won't believe this but some women in the Phil. have started families at
12. Back in the old days and the rural communities this was common.
Nowadays, the trend is to delay parenthood and pursue an education.
Kids in your neighborhood? What part of the NY ghetto do you live in,
TChihuahua? ROFL! The kids in your block must already be high on drugs or
engage in prostitution. No thank you very much! ROFL!
Johnny
johnn...@hotmail.antispam.com
Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote in article
<3400F7...@HotMail.com>...
>
> You're absolutely right. The Philippines has a right to make it's own
> laws. Unfortunately, they've seen fit to legalize what most people would
> consider pedophilia. You don't think that's wrong? Is there something
> about your desires that you'd like to share with us?
>
Conversely, we can also regard America as savage and barbaric for
supporting Institutionalised Killing aka Death Penalty. Most First World
Nations have done away with this practice.
Would you like to share your taste for blood with us?
Johnny
passerby
> Right and wrong, Rhett. First of all, Paul backs his statements up with
> articles dredged from the fringes of the media. To say that he's "backs
> it up with a newspaper account" implies that he's not a racist, merely
> reporting somewhat controversial facts. If I start posting crap from the
> KKK newsletter or some red neck paper that says the Holocause never
> happened, is that just "backing it up with a newspaper account or an
> acknowledged historical event"? Not hardly.
>
> You are right that what Riley said was racist. You notice I immediately
> challenged his statements even though they were intended to support my
> point. I don't need racism or racists to help me out. I don't support
> racists in anything they say. Your support of Paul, even slantingly, is
> rather disappointing.
>
> Riley is a racist. I oppose him. You oppose him.
>
> Paul is a racist. I oppose him. What's your stand?
>
As you may have noticed the Great Wall did not respond inorder to kill the
thread. If your intention is to have him admit that he's supporting an
anti-white postings... i don't think that will ever happen. It is
uncharacteristic of him to do that.
As for that 12 thing, you are challenging/questioning a Phil. law in a
Filipino NG. What kind of reactions would you expect?... negative.
Probably if you were a Filipino too then the outcome might be different.
However, I would like to salute you for keeping your composure in their
attempt to flame you. Yes, racism and pedophilia in any shape or form are
wrong... but since you're attacking the Big Fish you won't get any support
from the cronies either.
makikiraan nga po...
Rhett Valino Pascual
Gentlemen,
You are being professionally trolled by tchiowa or whyme. He supported
Pendarvis a few months ago. Let's just leave this fool alone and
hopefully, he'll get tired of talking to himself. Sometimes, silence is
the best answer after you have tried more than three times to explain a
concept. the fool just wants to show us "boys" what educated people can
do. as far as I can tell, his "boys" reference could be construed as
being a racial putdown. But that's just from me.
By the way, notice that he can't explain why in the world Jalosjos is in
jail if pedophilia was legal in the philippines?
REtong
--
AC21209
Rhett Pascual-
Thank you for the information on said Mr. Tchiowa. I have been away
traveling both for fun and for work since the beginning of the year and
missed all of the Pendarvis/Tchiowa posts. However, your statement that
Tchiowa had previously defended Pendarvis and Tchiowa's recent statements
have made many issues understandable.
Rhett Valino Pascual
While in a rec.photo*** newsgroup, I saw the following. I qualify as
Level D and the chickster qualifies for Level E.
REtong
****************
Forgive this rather long post. However, this info fits a couple of people
posting to this group and gives suggestions on how to handle them.
Jack Gurner
jgu...@watervalley.net
-------------------
1) What is a troll?
A troll is someone who posts primarily for the purpose of drawing
attention to himself (or herself), usually negative attention. Trolls
are also known to post solely to disrupt a newsgroup, thus defeating
the group's purpose. They frequently post from anonymous or forged
accounts.
2) Why should we avoid trolls?
The best reason to ignore trolls is that if you give them the
attention they desire by responding to them, they can, in time, rip a
newsgroup apart. In reality, most seem to be sad little people with no
lives; why encourage them to waste yours on their spew? When in doubt,
ignore.If you simply cannot help yourself, one good defense is to
write a response, but delete it without posting it -- or perhaps even
e-mail it to a friend. These actions let you vent your spleen without
giving the trolls the verbal spanking they crave.
3) How do I know if I'm being trolled?
The following is a definitive list of troll types and their
identifying features, written by Charles Miller.
A) The Joke Troll.
This troll is the standard Usenet troll: a one-off joking post. It is
simply an off-topic game of "spot the deliberate misteak." These posts
are generally harmless, and in this author's opinion are often funny.
Look out for: "You shouldn't make so many speling errors or
grammermistakes"; "everyone knows Speilberg directed Star Wars"; and
anything crossposted to alt.stupidity or alt.religion.kibology.
B) The Hit-'n'-Run Troll.
This troll is the same kind of person who posts "Get a life" to the
Star Trek newsgroups, "God is dead" to the christnet groups, and
"AOLRoolz!" to alt.aol-sucks. The idea is to make one post, leave, and
then forget the newsgroup even exists.
Identifying marks: ALL CAPS SUBJECTS such as "AOL IS THE
BESTINTERNETS!!!," constant mispellings, no real argument; "get a
life," "if you don't like AOL, don't use it," and "you're all just
racists." Usually posts with a forged header to avoid any
repercussions.
Best defense: Ignore.
C) The Curious Troll.
This troll is the sort of person who has read a couple of posts on the
newsgroup and wants to join in the fun. Unfortunately, the fun that he
sees is the responses that the other trolls are getting.
Identifying marks: Similar to a hit-and-run, but posts more than once
and seems to know something about regular posters. However, he has no
real knowledge about the group, and that shows -- for example, he will
assume that someone has been posting for longer than he really has or
call a regular a "newbie."
Best defense: Ignore at first. If they persist, firmly tell them to
stop.
D) The Asshole
This is not a true troll. This person really believes that AOL sucks
or that AOL should be defended. The problem is that this person also
brings along a number of serious social problems, which may includethe
need to post 50 times a day, a total inability to understand logic, or
an irrational hatred of women, certain races, or individual posters.
Identifying marks: He will look okay at first, just another AOL
attacker or defender. However, when this person is challenged, the
social problems will appear. He will often berate others for straying
from the topic.
Best defense: Flame their ass for a while. You don't want to look
likeyou condone ahtisocial attitudes or are being defeated by faulty
logic. However, there comes a point where this person must be publicly
sent to Coventry (or just killfiled).
E) The Disruptor.
This troll, for whatever reason, feels the need to disrupt the group.
This troll has read the newsgroup and knows who is who. The disruptive
troll also has a good idea of what posts and issues we respond to most
vehemently.
This troll does not go away until he wants to. He is here primarily to
be responded to, and so any response is a good one, even if the
response is the vilest imaginable.
This troll is laughing at you every time you reply to him. He is
looking at the screen, thinking "How could that sucker fall for that
again?"
Identifying features: The only true distinguishing feature of the
Disruptor is an uncanny ability to annoy as many people as is humanly
possible, combined with the fact that he shows every intention of
staying in the newsgroup, regardless.
Best Defense: An honoured position in the global killfile.
--
Rhett Valino Pascual
Paul Kekai Manansala <pmana...@csus.edu> wrote:
>Maybe to you a 12 year old is still a child, but in many indigenous cultures
>in the Philippines they have their own customs that they have practiced since
>time immemorial. I suspect you think you are in a position to make these
>judgements for them, or do you just follow whatever lead the West gives you?
Paul brings up an interesting point. To what extent will we support the
supplanting of indigenous values by values based on that of the West?
Right now, there is a cultural war for the world. We are planting and
spreading western values into third world countries. The areas where
these two will collide often lead to war and devastation. I refer to the
Middle East and Africa.
So in the philippines, the next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
I remember smirking when that american teenager was stupidly caught
painting graffiti in Singapore. The american society went nuts because he
was going to be smacked. He deserved to be smacked and I bet you that he
won't ever try to write graffiti in singapore and any other country where
you can get smacked in the butt.
this cultural shock is what is so interesting about westernized people.
they don't understand just how different the world can be.
REtong
--
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <5tupld$r...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett Valino Pascual) wrote:
>passerby <so...@wt.net> wrote:
>>
>>As you may have noticed the Great Wall did not respond inorder to kill the
>>thread. If your intention is to have him admit that he's supporting an
>>anti-white postings... i don't think that will ever happen. It is
>>uncharacteristic of him to do that.
>
>anonymous, or is it chiowa masquerading again? I noticed your appearance
>when ciowa was being mangled and his reputation was blatantly disgraced
>when molave suddenly appeared with incriminating evidence.
>
>besides racism, i'm against pedophilia. It just so happens that I don't
>follow what anyone TELLS me to do just for the sake of doing it, unlike
>you. You see, it reminds me of master-slave relationships when someone
>tells me to do something. and you know, master, just how much i love
>that.
>
>as i have said before and i'll say it again so that your wee mind can
>grasp the concept....chickowa has never proven that paul is racist. paul
>is a leftist/socialist (from his writings) but he is not a racist.
>
Thanks, Rhett. I'm a leftist/socialist/pagan animist to
be precise. <g>
Long live Mao and the Twelve High Ones of Pinatubo!
(___)
\_/ Paul Kekai Manansala
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <3402A9BF...@earthling.net>,
Perseus <Perseu...@earthling.net> wrote:
>What stupid arguments coming from Johnny !! I checked back on thread of
>the discussion, and all I saw was a legitimate question posted by
>Tchiwa.. which was: "... Why is the age of consent 12? Doesn't that
>constitute legalized pedophilia? Why not change the law to 15-18 like
>
>It is a valid question for discussion. But all I saw were replies which
>attacked him for bringing the issue up.
The point is that the majority of children at 12 will not give consent.
therefore, the law is only clear on when they give consent. the other
side is that if the child is not consenting, then the person is
prosecuted.
The law is written in specific ways. How you interpret it depends on the
intent. chicky-baby is trolling so he wants to show that pedophilia is
legal. however, again, you get to the crucial issue of consent where in
general, children don't consent at 12 to have sexual relations.
what difference will changing the words to 18 be? will it increase or
change the penalty for the offense? if abusers are prosecuted now, why
not just leave it alone? even the us, laws are changed when there is a
situation which warrants such change. I would cite Megan's law as an
example.
chicky baby is trolling and that is why he posted that. don't think he
had any other point.
REtong
--
AC21209
Perseus wrote in defense:
"AC21209: You are a sad case !! Feel free to wallow in your ignorance
and stupidity !! Believe what you want to believe in. It does not bother
me one bit !! By the way, perhaps it would help if you learned how to trace
postings. Look up the net...there are free lessons out there. You'll
learn how to read and understand page sources, and more. This will certainly
cure your quick and haphazard jumps to conclusions as to people's
identities. Moreover, it will teach you how to be a better netizen."
Perseus, I am glad to see that my postings a beliefs don't bother you.
Your apathy to my beliefs really shines through on this post. Maybe I
should learn to trace postings, but I really have no interest in that- even
if there are free lessons available at the local Computer City.
A cure for quick and haphazard jumps in conclusions? A better netizen? I
believe that I should follow by your examples, di ba?
Jun B.
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:54:48 -0700, Perseus
<Perseu...@earthling.net> wrote:
:That's a relief !! However, I understand the above to mean that 13 is
:"legal" age. Still, isn't that still too young ? I may sound like
:parroting Chowa-who-ever, but, why not 18 ?
I should probably step asid for Manong Ben, but IIRC it is still 18
(baka nga 21 pa, eh.) The bit about 12 yrs being the ceiling of
statutory rape means that at 12 yrs. & below, the lawmakers have come
up with the legal opinion that carnal knowledge is acquired after age
12. Prior to that, the child has no concept of sexual matters, so her
giving consent to any sexual activity is uninformed, thus giving rise
to the law that sex with a child 12 yrs. and younger is rape,
regardless of whether consent was given or not.
:But wouldn't it be better if we taught our children about responsibility
:and a better tomorrow even before they fall into this trap ? How about
:teaching parents about better parenting ?
I agree. That was why I said that people, but especially children and
teenagers, must be informed of their rights and responsibilities;
ditto with the parents.
:Surely it is illegal for the 12 yr old and younger -- and that's not
:only good. It goes without saying, law or no law! But how about the
:13 yr old, the 14 yr old -- the 15 and 16 yrs old ? I believe that
:is the crux of the discussion. Those are the youth's formative years
:-- the time when they are vulnerable to the pressures of society, peer,
:experimentation, discovery. They are still children !! Wow !
That's what parents, schools, and (especially in the Philippine
setting) religion, and even the government, are for. To give the
teenager a moral foundation, as well as to offer them protection from
exploitation. Also, that's why the teenager must be receptive to
these agencies and not dismiss them because everybody else in her
class thinks that "listening to authority is uncool."
:I pray to God it has not !! But I've seen it everywhere while I lived
:back home. I can tell you one story after another, but surely, my
:point is taken. I grew up in a small town in Ilocos... continued
:my studies in Manila... and then I moved to Baguio, then back to
:Manila. I've seen it's ugly head everywhere I've gone. Perhaps,
:not institutionalized, as you put it. But with the underpinings and
:faces one sees when one looks around, we discover the tacit and quiet
:acceptance and surrender to what many, nay -- the majority (???) think is
:unresolveable -- the interweaving of "legal" -- meaning, "not contrary
:to any written law" -- pedophilia in Philippine society.
Again, it's probably more an issue of education and availability of
opportunity. I think that "pedophilia" happens because many of our
countrymen are resigned to their fate, and have been taught to be so.
If they were taught differently, and have proof availlable to them
(whether by legal aid, economic aid, or whatever) then I think that
the practice will decrease and even stop.
----
Jun B.
bai...@interlog.com
Rhett Valino Pascual
NOBODY <kano...@mosquitonet.com> wrote:
>views and slant, Rhett must recognize and defend the position of Mr.
>Tchiowa's defense of another's right to opposing views and freedoms of
>speech. Otherwise, Rhett would be a hypocritical bigot, which is not
If i could get rid of chicky baby and pendarvis and any other pedophiles
from trolling this newsgroup, then i would gladly be called a hypocritical
bigot. Mind you, I have been called much worse in this newsgroup and i
don't mind because it serves a purpose.
and my version of freedom of speech stops at trolling. i don't think the
framers of the constitution thought that trolling is an exercise of one's
freedom of speech. a freedom to exercise stupidity is what i would call
it.
REtong
--
JonZ93111
gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett Valino Pascual) writes:
[snipped]
>So in the philippines, the next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
>the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
>circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
I really can't keep up with the particular nuances of who said what and
where, etc. - BUT, it seems that a particular troller Paul started out to
strongly state that he was against pedofilia at least as far as westerners
abusing filipino children was concerned. If my feable memory serves it
seems that most responsible SCFer agreed but a few (such as myself)
wondered why one should be against pedofilia only when westerners were
concerned - why not be against pedofilia regardless of who is involved.
This discussion regarding cultural norms seems to be the answer as to
Paul's stance - we simply redefine pedofilia where only filipino's are
involved as no longer being pedofilia due to the cultural context of the
country involved.
I haven't had any coffee yet today so perhaps I'm skipping a little here
but isn't that what seems to be going on in this thread Rhett? If you had a
12 year old daughter, Rhett, and she was seduced by an older man would you
alter your stance so radically based upon the cultural context of the
country you were in?
>I remember smirking when that american teenager was stupidly caught
>painting graffiti in Singapore. The american society went nuts because he
>was going to be smacked. He deserved to be smacked and I bet you that he
>won't ever try to write graffiti in singapore and any other country where
>you can get smacked in the butt.
Rhett,
It was not just you who smirked - almost the entire country smirked with
you - the politician's were the ones forced to fight to "protect" that jerk
- fortunately he gotted whacked anyway. Later, when that particular little
snot got back home he got drunk one day and beat up his father. At the time
my brother was in Malaysia so I asked him to see if he could go to
Singapore to try and buy a cane - I thought it might may a useful Christmas
gift for the jerk's father. :)
You must be nuts, however, to bring up Singapore as an example in such a
way. Have you forgotten about Flor Contemplacion? If you wish to use
Singapore as a lithmus test for how westernized people just don't
understand cultural differences then you are strongly implying that the
Philippines is a westernized society. If this is the case then what is your
point regarding the pedofilia issue which has been currently battered
around ad nauseum?
>this cultural shock is what is so interesting about westernized people.
>they don't understand just how different the world can be.
>
>REtong
Anyway, I just got the computer up and running after moving to the East
Bay. Cool area up here.
Jon Zimmermann
Pleasant Hills, CA
AC21209
Mike Ward recently wrote:
" After spending the better part of the past 13 years immersed
with Filipinos, my opinion is that there is less difference than I had
originally thought. What used to be mysterious isn't anymore, people
are pretty much people regardless of what language they speak or what
they eat, etc. Now this ain't some liberal wishy washy opinion, it is
simple observation and simple is may be, but it's mine. :-)"
Well, finally, a sampling of something clear and fresh on SCF. Mr Ward
certainly has the right idea. More so than we may be Filipinos, or Blacks,
or Americans, or whatever, we are people. People who really aren't that
much different than each other - beyond the facial differences. Maybe this
is what I was trying to say in my post about living in Hawaii. That after
a while of co-existence amongst different nationalities, the barriers cease
to exist, especially once we put down our own prejudices.
Which may be why someone had noted that Americans are different in
perspective than Europeans. Americans do have this arrogance about them,
almost an ethnic cleansing type of air about them and this country. Now,
many White Americans may feel insulted and angered by this, but it is
simply a matter of you not being able to comprehend because of your
experience. I notice that some of the people posting here that could be
considered white usually take offense whenever someone else makes a
statement concerning whites. It is probably your first time to feel the
sting of a racially-biased comment. Try to imagine living with comments
like that everyday of your life, anyplace that you go. Imagine walking
into a bar and having all the patrons turn to you, staring at you and the
music stopping (no, it just sounds like the movies, but it is real) and
then imagine wondering if you have just made a grave mistake and if you
will make it out of the alive. Did that ever happen to you? Imagine
growing up in a world where all of idols, ideals and role models were
white, and you thinking that is normal go out and about in the world, only
to be told (rather directly, at times) that you are not white and not
welcome. Imagine what it is like to go to a Denny's and wait, and wait,
and wait while the hostess serves countless other people (who happen to be
white). Then you complain to her and she blows you off, then complain to
the manager , who in turn, blows you off. Then when you really start to
get upset, the manager calls for security to come and push you (physically)
out. Then imagine a bunch of patrons (about 15, who happen to be white)
now come outside and beat up on you and your friends (out of 7, 4 of your
friends are girls, and they beat on them too), sending three of your
friends to the hospital. All this while management and security watches
and does nothing. Imagine that your only saving grace is two black
students who couldn't watch any longer and jump in (and they were being
passed up for service next to you). Imagine singing "My country 'tis of
thee, sweet land of liberty" and wondering if that really applies to you
because it doesn't always feel that way. If you can begin to imagine these
things that I mentioned, then you are beginning to understand whatl life in
America is like for those of us who are not white.
Perseus
Rhett Valino Pascual wrote:
>
> Paul brings up an interesting point. To what extent will we support the
> supplanting of indigenous values by values based on that of the West?
Odd.. but come to think of it, I thought that way 11 years ago.
"Filipino
sa puso at diwa." I entertained the idea that my culture was superior
to that
of the americans. I only came here to move my nieces to safety and away
from
the dangers of those "coup-times" in RP way back then.
> ......next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
> the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
> circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
Odd again, coz now I just think along similar lines. I do not even
cosider
appropriateness anymore. For me it's "the how" to move along and adopt
the western way
of doing thigs. I discounted the good and magnified the bad when I got
here
the first time. But now I see that the good outweighs the bad -- and if
only Filipinos could move fast enough to adopt the good from
western/american
culture and practice, the Filipino nation would be jumping strides. I
get so
frustrated -- and a lot of times at that -- when I read the situation in
the
Philippines. Corruption, graft, disregard for rights, amendments to the
constitution which has barely taken root .... discrimination -- yes !!
Just
reading the job oppourtunies ads on the webpages and sites of Filipinos
---
the common thread of: Preferably female... not over 27 yrs old -- must
have a
pleasing personality -- etc, ad infinitum. I am just waiting for them
to
insert the requirement: "must be 18 to play."
Admittedly, there are those in Fil society who are moving fast... but
the majority are left
behind -- leaders specially don't lead. They fight.. they want to stay
in power
longer than they should. But still, many of those who integrate into
the fast
movement of technology, somehow feel maligned when a weakness is
pointed. It
is a react-react situation -- a cycle some, readily displayed in this
newsgroup,
could not get out of. There is the driving force that makes them defend
culture
so sacrosanct and ruling over and above ideas that would make the life
of a
nation better.
>.......The american society went nuts because he
> was going to be smacked. He deserved to be smacked and I bet you that he
I do not think that was the case. The majority of the American people
did not
"go nuts." In fact, they felt the treatment was justified, and many
were quite
vocal about it being right. There is no difference between the american
and the
asian culture when it comes to their desire to make better persons of
their
children. Americans, for a fact, places the development and care of the
child
as a priority.
There is a tendency among filipinos to emphasize the american practice
of divorce over child care -- of racism over equal job opportunity -- of
the
ghettos over community and business development. They boast about being
more
intelligent that the whites, but -- where are the fruits of that
intelligence?
They consider American influence anathema, but they have their palms
open for
american aid. They let their pride -- delicadesa -- rule, and borrow
money
left and right -- just to end up wasting resouces, spending them on
other things
not intended for in the first place. Who can really say how much goes
to the pockets
of those who have control over public funds ? It takes forever to
prosecute an
erring official -- courts are snobbed and not respected byt the
powerful. The charge
that there is massive election cheating should have made those
politician shudder and
a cry out from the people. Pero.. no !! It's almost election time
again, and nothing
has come out of it!! Same people, same politicians, same game. Kung
walang Cardinal
Sin, sino pa and mangungunang mag-lead sa people uproar? Pati na the
supposedly "guided
by the Spirit" Shaddai leader is now "guided by the politicians."
The class system is so embedded, it is second to the caste system. So
what? Cultura !!
Quesehoda ang western culture! Filipino po tayo !!
Pati na sa airport, walk down a plane and move towards immigration
checks, and it takes
forever !! Just look at those meaningful inspector eyes ! "Will this
so-delay trigger
this visitor to realize that a discreet handout will speed things up?"
Then there are
the taxi cabs passing for a limo ?
It's "Ganito kami noon, Ganito kami ngayon, at Ganito kami habang
panahon. Cultura at
Tradisyon and mangunguna !!" ".....tatameme na si Kano at 'tadong puti
na walang namang
kaalam-alam sa buhay nating Pilipino."
BAkit ba hindi "Sa Diyous ang awa, Sa tao ang Gawa, .... at kung gagawa
ka na rin lang,
eh di gawin mo na ng tama" ????
Stephen Roach
On 27 Aug 1997 20:28:56 GMT, gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett
Valino Pascual) wrote:
> So in the philippines, the next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
> the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
> circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
The question is not whether it is 'appropriate', but how quickly can
you change your society. The Philippines is currently taking on
western 'systems' (computer systems, personnel systems, business
systems, etc) which have launched it as the new 'tiger economy'. This
really means that you have joined the Western economic system. The
problem is that you are operating in a culture which is locked away
several centuries ago and stuck in the remote barangays. There are
numerous examples of this. Try to buy anything from Abenson and you
are faced with a minimum of six people (one to demo, four! to deal
with the credit card, security guard to check). In my own work where I
am supporting the implementation of a large computer system, the work
is hampered at every stage by Pilipino culture. The problems are:
- Nobody ever takes responsibility for their own actions.
- No one owns tasks.
- The background of corruption means that a huge rambling bureacracy
hampers every stage of the process.
- Can only think linearly. Single tasking is the rule here.
- Meetings never start on time. This is not just a witty reference to
the concept of 'Philippine time'. It is rude for a start, but the
main problem is the waste of human resource. If I had my way,
people's money would be stopped at source for every minute they are
late.
- Concentration on the minute, ignorant of the big picture.
- Bloody, bloody, bloody face saving. Nobody says what they mean,
nobody means what they say.
- Blind optimism about ones own / the Pilipinos capability of carrying
out tasks. The answer is always 'yes' and then it turns out that the
knowlegde / skill / ability / willingless does not exist in the
country.
These are the main problems. There are plenty of others.
The Philippines is a country of 'that will do'. Nothing is ever just
right. There is always something slightly wrong - exept for jeepneys,
of course, with them everything is wrong!
Nationalism is another problem and is related to the last point.
Pilipino executives will always claim that their own people can do
things better (almost never true) and cheaper (almost never true
'cause someone has to come in and put the mess straight). Why can't
Pilipinos admit that they lack certain skills and then take advantage
of the training possibilities offered by on site foreigners. I am
surrounded by people who could have very strong skill sets but don't
because they cannot bring themselves to say 'I don't know how to do
that. Please show me.'. This is true of almost everyone I work with
but with some very notable exceptions (mostly, actually all, women)
who are your only hope for the future. Actually, on that point, why is
it that the men are useless and the women much better? No wanting to
impinge on the perpetual 'why whites like to marry Pilipinas' debate,
but is this something to do with upbringing. Girls are put to work in
the home as soon as they can barely walk. For boys, if they cry as
babies, the nursemaid is fired. If I had a centavo for every husband /
brother who lies around at home all day getting drunk while the women
are out earning slave wages, well you could call me Ayala!
The other big one is contracts. They are never safe. If the Pilipino
organisation who you have the contract does not like the deal (even
after it is signed!), they will try to renegotiate. If that does not
work they will take it to court to get it overturned. A 'rich'
foreigner taking on a Pilipino organisation in a Pilipino court with a
Pilipino judge stand as much chance a a snowflake in hell. I have even
been in meetings where the renegotiation was planned. One exec set a
negotiation team but didn't empower them to make a decision. They were
told to get the best deal and then she would take over and make a
better one (remember, this was on an already signed contract!). When I
said that I could not involve my company in this type of negotiation
the reaction amazed me. They could just not see what was wrong with
doing business in this underhand way. It is theft, pure and simple. It
seems that the 10 commandments for Pilipino catholics are what stop
signs are for Pilipino drivers, advisory but not compulsory. I would
advise any foreigner doing business in the Philippines to factor this
possibility into their costings.
Some studies have demonstrated that it could take about 300 years to
effect a change in a society. I think you had better get started.
------------------------------------
Steve Roach
Remove NOSPAM from address to reply.
------------------------------------
AC21209
Stephen Roach,
A question, If you know that these are all of the problems of Philippine
culture, why are you doing business there?
If you know that the people will not wantingly ask for help and training,
why not just train them?
If you know people are going to be late for a 9am meeting, why not work
around it or make dire consequences for tardiness?
I do not doubt any of what you wrote, for I have seen it myself. But,
borrowing from the classic American term, if you don't like it, leave. Not
that I would recommend that either, I mean, why? And go back to the States
where you have to turn off the engine, get out into the heat and pump your
own gas? I'd think I'd rather stay in the RP in that case.
Another question, and this is not a flame, you are expecting first world
service, attention and quality from third world workers, are you paying
them first world wages or the P150 minimum. Maybe it could be the you get
what you pay for. Cheap labor does have its price in the RP.
soliman
Stephen Roach wrote:
the work
> is hampered at every stage by Pilipino culture. The problems are:
You can do business elsewhere, but can you be competitive elsewhere,
like in the United States. It might help if you don't just treat the
Filipinos as a source of cheap labor or as a short-term investment.
Perseus
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote in article <5u99aq$m4_...@news.csus.edu>...>
>These are not 'Western' systems and they have nothing to do with
>taking on Western values or a Western economic system. In fact,
>in most cases the stuff is bought in Japan! Save your pontification
>for others. America is a sinking ship of racism and exploitation.
>People are marching regularly in the streets fighting for their rights
>and against brutality, colonization and discrimination. We don't
>need folk like you trying to tell us what's right when things are
>ready to explode where you came from.
One big difference -- we can march and not be shot at !! We can march and
not be afraid that we will be hounded by government men. We can march
without the worry that the President will extend his office by amending the
constitution. We can march and believe that when corruption is exposed, an
immidiate investigation is launced without delay, with concern for position
or influence. We can march, and still buy food cheap from the supermarkets.
We can march and avail of advance technology, speak our minds, sing our
songs. We can march without worrying that the states of Texas or California
are seceding from the mainland. We can march AND BE RACISTS at that with
better opportunities, education, the best living standards.
True, we have our own problems, but to say that America is a sinking ship is
like saying the Philippines has sunk and wiped from the face of the earth.
Is this how Filipinos in general think of America? I hope not, with all the
preference the Philippines seeks with the US, and all the handouts it
receives.
Now, if only people who think like that could learn to appreaciate what the
"White American Monster US of A" could offer the world, and the Philippines
in particular !! Flame me --- fact is: the US of A is a good place to
live in and is the greatest country in the world !!!!
Rhett Valino Pascual
Stephen Roach <ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com> wrote:
>- Nobody ever takes responsibility for their own actions.
>- No one owns tasks.
Wonderful set of problems about filipinos. Thinking about it though, the
same can be said for the american culture which i inhabit. For every one
of your points, I have seen the same points in my life in California. I
would have to question whether your conclusions are correct or whether
they apply to california as well. Actually, if you want to talk about
being late, the Mayor of SF Willie Brown was late by several hours in the
Pistahan 97 in SF. I can imagine a majority of politicians in the US
would also have the same problems.
You did a wonderful job complaining about the philippines. Of course, it
did not originally answer my first question. The tacit idea in your
statements is that the philippines MUST use western ideas and traditions
by taking the western style of economies.
I wonder how Japan became so successful when the whole country uses a
different set of values from the US. For that matter, I wonder how the
rest of Asia does it.
Certainly, your criticisms of the philippines is correct. However, it
seems that the obvious fact is that your criticisms do not apply only to
the philippines. It applies to everyone in the world.
The one thing that i detect in your tone of post is the eye of
superiority. I wonder whether filipinos visiting your country would feel
the same way like you do.
REtongGutomKumakainNgTinapay
--
JonZ93111
>JonZ93111 <jonz...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Paul's stance - we simply redefine pedofilia where only filipino's are
>>country involved.
>
>I hate to say this, but when it comes to pedophilia, it really doesn't
>matter to me whether the thing is cultural or not. The abuser should get
>his balls cut off. Now, since I don't know any 12 year old who would
>consent to this, to me, all abusers would get their balls cut off.
>
>the person being abused doesn't even have to be my daughter and I would
>still send the guy off to see the doctors to have his second and final
>circumcision. too bad i'm not a legislator.
I have to agree with you here. Too bad we're both not legislators. ;)
>
>>You must be nuts, however, to bring up Singapore as an example in such a
>>way. Have you forgotten about Flor Contemplacion? If you wish to use
>>Singapore as a lithmus test for how westernized people just don't
>>understand cultural differences then you are strongly implying that the
>>Philippines is a westernized society. If this is the case then what is your
>>point regarding the pedofilia issue which has been currently battered
>>around ad nauseum?
>
>I do think that the philippines is adopting westernized versions of laws
>and governments. Unfortunately, with the filipino ethic, it leads to
>disaster. As for the pedophilia, rack them up and cut off their
>amygdalas.
>
>What i referred to about americans and other cultures is that americans
>think that their rights to freedom etc, etc are going to be respected in
>other countries. I don't think americans understand how lucky they are to
>live in a place were the constitution protects their rights.
True, but I've also seen other people doing this regularly. Being American
I am more embarassed with I see other Americans behaving poorly when out of
the country, of course, but I also have seen examples of individuals out of
their country who were obviously and clearly out of their element.
Nonetheless I do see your point.
>>Anyway, I just got the computer up and running after moving to the East
>>Bay. Cool area up here.
>
>Now that you are around, maybe you will be able to go to the next few
>gatherings.
I will definetely try - I'm now in search of things to do with the three
year old around the bay area. Are there any zoo's around?
>Cheers,
>REtong
Ciao
Jon
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <340b51db...@snews.zippo.com>,
NOBODY <kano...@mosquitonet.com> wrote:
>I guess I miss something about the parties you wish to remove from the
>NG. They may have instigated this thread you and I both have followed
pendarvis was convicted of pedophilia and chirowirap was protecthing him
because chrowirap was ignorant of the facts.
>and I pray it never does because I would hate to think God would curse
>the world with someone so stupid. Just the same if it occurred you
marv, i would like you to meet tony the tiger and tik the tikbalang. just
to even things up (don' want to appear racist), i also want you to meet
chiowa. this is proof that god cursed this earth with idiots like me.
>>and my version of freedom of speech stops at trolling. i don't think the
>>framers of the constitution thought that trolling is an exercise of one's
>>freedom of speech. a freedom to exercise stupidity is what i would call
>>it.
>>
>Sorry, don't follow you here.
hmm, can't help you there.
REtong
--
AC21209
Perseus wrote:
"One big difference -- we can march and not be shot at !! We can march
and not be afraid that we will be hounded by government men. "
Exsqueeze me? What little dominion of the country are you living in
Perseus? You are right, we can march, but we do have to worry about being
hounded by government men in the good ole US of A. And we do have to worry
about being shot at. Possibly you are out somewhere in rural Kansas, but
in the metropolitan areas of the country you do have to worry about alot of
things.
"We can march, and still buy food cheap from the supermarkets."
Do you call $5 for a box of cereal and $5 for a gallon of milk cheap? Or
how about $2 a lb for chicken parts? $1.75 a gallon for gas cheap?
You know, I do agree with you that the USA is a better place to live than
anywhere else, but to read your painting on it, you would think that we all
lived the Norman Rockwell 50s white man version of life in these United
States. You, somewhere along the way, will have to learn that not all of
us do live your life.
Perseus
AC21209 wrote in article <19970901172...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>Exsqueeze me? What little dominion of the country are you living in
>Perseus? You are right, we can march, but we do have to worry about being
>hounded by government men in the good ole US of A. And we do have to worry
>about being shot at. Possibly you are out somewhere in rural Kansas, but
>in the metropolitan areas of the country you do have to worry about alot of
things.
California -- that's right ! And I still stand on what I said.... we don't
have to worry about government men hounding or trailing us, vis people who
march and demonstrate in Manila or anywhere in the Philippines for that
matter. I am not worried that my name may be logged in by the FBI, short of
being watch as a suspect in an assassination attempt on the president. In
other words, we hold dear and appreciate our freedoms of assembly and
speech, more that you can whisper "putang inang Ramos na iyan" in the
Philippines. Black bands were all it took for presidential security men to
act beyond their duties. Can you do that here in the US without reaping the
wrath of the American people?
>Do you call $5 for a box of cereal and $5 for a gallon of milk cheap? Or
>how about $2 a lb for chicken parts? $1.75 a gallon for gas cheap?
YOu must be shopping in a place where people are "select." Not really bad,
but !!!! $5 a box of cereal ? Ano? Ginto ? $5 a gallon of milk? $1.75
a gallon of gas? Where in US of A do you live -- may I ask in turn ? Now
in terms of cheap, tell me.... how can the average Filipino, in the
Philippines afford a mortgage, a car payment, afford to purchase the
necessities of life without tearing his hair off trying to figure out how to
make things meet? If you were not here, do you think you would be able to
afford to purchase the same computer you use, and have the same privilege of
posting and reading postings in this newsgroup?
Please don't respond by talking about credit card debts and whatever. Come
to think of it, how can the regular Filipino in his homeland open a credit
account without having collateral worth an income of a lifetime to secure a
credit line?
>........................ but to read your painting on it, you would
think that we all
>lived the Norman Rockwell 50s white man version of life in these United
>States. You, somewhere along the way, will have to learn that not all of
>us do live your life.
AC . . . Thank God I dont think in such terms. My life is simple. I work
hard. I am better off here than when I was in the Philippines -- where I
had been working my ass off from morning till night. I appreciate what I
have right now, without deluding myself to believe that I would have been
better off in the Philippines.
Chris Blunt
ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
>$1.75 a gallon for gas cheap?
Sounds cheap to me.
I pay $3.60 a gallon for gas here in Korea. Prices are about the same
in the U.K., the rest of Europe, and many other countries around the
world.
--Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: +82 (2) 270 3627
Fax: +82 (2) 272 0773
Email: Ch...@Blunt.com
WWW: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1374996
ICQ: 1374996
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Roach
On Sat, 30 Aug 97 14:05:14 GMT, pmana...@csus.edu (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:
> In article <340d2469...@199.4.94.14>,
> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
> >On 27 Aug 1997 20:28:56 GMT, gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett
> >Valino Pascual) wrote:
> >
> >> So in the philippines, the next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
> >> the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
> >> circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
> >
> >The question is not whether it is 'appropriate', but how quickly can
> >you change your society. The Philippines is currently taking on
> >western 'systems' (computer systems, personnel systems, business
> >systems, etc) which have launched it as the new 'tiger economy'. This
> >really means that you have joined the Western economic system.
>
> These are not 'Western' systems and they have nothing to do with
> taking on Western values or a Western economic system. In fact,
> in most cases the stuff is bought in Japan! Save your pontification
> for others. America is a sinking ship of racism and exploitation.
> People are marching regularly in the streets fighting for their rights
> and against brutality, colonization and discrimination. We don't
> need folk like you trying to tell us what's right when things are
> ready to explode where you came from.
>
>
> (___)
> \_/ Paul Kekai Manansala
I don't come from America and know little about the place.
All right, shall we say they are developed world system but there is a
huge input from the west (US + Europe). The point is that you are
taking on those systems right now so your leaders (politicians,
industrialist, etc) must see them as desireable. If you do not then
complain to them. I am just advising you on how to take them on
effectively.
Stephen Roach
On 31 Aug 1997 14:22:19 GMT, gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett
Valino Pascual) wrote:
> Stephen Roach <ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com> wrote:
> >- Nobody ever takes responsibility for their own actions.
> >- No one owns tasks.
>
> Wonderful set of problems about filipinos. Thinking about it though, the
> same can be said for the american culture which i inhabit. For every one
> of your points, I have seen the same points in my life in California. I
> would have to question whether your conclusions are correct or whether
> they apply to california as well. Actually, if you want to talk about
> being late, the Mayor of SF Willie Brown was late by several hours in the
> Pistahan 97 in SF. I can imagine a majority of politicians in the US
> would also have the same problems.
Don't know about the US, I've never been there. Of course, anyone can
be late for a meeting but the point is that during the 18 months I
have worked here, not a single meeting has started on time. I attend
about 4 a week.
>
> You did a wonderful job complaining about the philippines. Of course, it
> did not originally answer my first question. The tacit idea in your
> statements is that the philippines MUST use western ideas and traditions
> by taking the western style of economies.
>
> I wonder how Japan became so successful when the whole country uses a
> different set of values from the US. For that matter, I wonder how the
> rest of Asia does it.
I believe that the countries which take on western structures can only
do this when they take on the values of which they are a part. For
example, project management which is a tool to deliver something only
works when deadlines are seen as important by all the players,
individuals are respected (everyone turns up to meetings on time) and
people work together (not out for a fast personal buck). This seems to
be lacking in all but a few of the Filipinos WHO I WORK WITH. Japan
may have values which parallel western ones or they may have taken
them on with the systems. I'm not sure which.
>
> Certainly, your criticisms of the philippines is correct. However, it
> seems that the obvious fact is that your criticisms do not apply only to
> the philippines. It applies to everyone in the world.
It is the overwhelming application of values alien to the west which
applies to the Philippines. How, for example, would you takle the
endemic corruption. Personally, I can't see the answer to this but
that does not mean there is no answer!
>
> The one thing that i detect in your tone of post is the eye of
> superiority. I wonder whether filipinos visiting your country would feel
> the same way like you do.
I am superior in applying western values to western systems because my
birth culture is immersed in those values. It is instinctive to me but
must be learned by Pilipinos. I have never met Pilipinos in the UK,
they probably mix in a different social group.
The point, however, is that you must decide whether it is right for
you to take on those systems at all. I can't tell you that but if you
do want to do this then I can help. All you have to do is listen and
apply.
>
> REtongGutomKumakainNgTinapay
AC21209
Perseus:
California? No fear in Cali? That's a load of hogwash! California is
the place where a bus trip that I was on was raided by the DEA, LA County
Sheriffs SWAT, and a host of other agencies right on the I-15 in San
Bernadino County going out towards Vegas. They took us down right in the
middle of the desert, I thought they were going to execute us right there.
You tend to think that when a red dot has been placed on your forehead. As
I remember we were a busload of minorities and even made it on the LA news
that night and we were either (take your pick) drug dealers, the largest
shipment of illegal weapons or Greyhound Bus Hijackers (and it was a
charter bus). They kept us there all afternoon and let us go after
nightfall so we couldn't see how they ransacked our stuff and,
conveniently, the only cell phone we had on the bus was now broken.
How's that for Cali and your AmeriKKKa?
You asked where I had lived and payed such a high price for gas and
groceries? Hawaii (a state). And isn't just a little strange that the
state with the largest minority population is also the state with the
lowest wages per capita, the worst public education system and the highest
prices? Sounds like a good situation to keep the natives down in Hawaii.
Now, you asked if I had not lived here would I be able to buy the luxuries
that I can afford here in the states (like a computer)? Yes, quite
frankly, I most certainly could.
When I head to Manila to live with my family for part of the year, I'm not
in a Nipa Hut and I do know for a fact that I can obtain what I have here
and possibly even more, there in the RP. You want to know why I stay in
the US? Prestige. To me, It is much more prestigious to have produced
Independence Day, or any other US film, than it is to have made Ligaya Ang
Itawag Mo Sa Akin (and how I do dislike that director personally) no matter
how good it is.
Stephen Roach
On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:30:11 -0800, soliman <sol...@boomnet.com>
wrote:
> Stephen Roach wrote:
> the work
> > is hampered at every stage by Pilipino culture. The problems are:
> ---------
> You can do business elsewhere, but can you be competitive elsewhere,
> like in the United States. It might help if you don't just treat the
> Filipinos as a source of cheap labor or as a short-term investment.
I don't, Pilipinos do.
Stephen Roach
On 31 Aug 1997 07:37:19 GMT, ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
> Stephen Roach,
>
> A question, If you know that these are all of the problems of Philippine
> culture, why are you doing business there?
I am not doing business of my own accord, I am a consultant. My job is
to address these exact problems. I was hoping that a usenet
disscussion might make my job a little easier! It may also help me in
tackling the problems by increasing my understanding of Pilipino
culture. Good job I know that all Pilipinos are not ponfificating
bufoons otherwise I may just up and leave ;-)
>
> If you know that the people will not wantingly ask for help and training,
> why not just train them?
We do that, of course. The point was not about training but about
awareness. I may be able to identify a training requirement and
conduct some courses to address that requirement. That is a normal
part of the project. The problems which I have is when I am telling
someone what I want them to do, they don't understand (which could be
easily my fault), but they don't tell me. The obvious way of checking
understanding (one of them western ideas!) is to ask open questions. I
sometimes get it wrong and just say 'Do you understand?' and getting
the Pilipino 'Yes, sir', believe it.
>
> If you know people are going to be late for a 9am meeting, why not work
> around it or make dire consequences for tardiness?
I do the first because I don't have the authority to do the second.
For one weekly meeting I wait until the secretary of the chairman has
called my office twice plus 10 minutes. This way, I don't waste half a
morning sitting in an empty room. The chairman once commented on this
behavoir once so I explained that I have other work and can't afford
to spend my days doing nothing. She said that the next week, herself,
me and another critical member of the committee would be exactly on
time and we would deal with other issues as and when people turn up.
Know what? She was 45 minutes late so I went back to the old system.
Works fine but the tardiness still implies a lack of respect.
>
> I do not doubt any of what you wrote, for I have seen it myself. But,
> borrowing from the classic American term, if you don't like it, leave. Not
> that I would recommend that either, I mean, why? And go back to the States
> where you have to turn off the engine, get out into the heat and pump your
> own gas? I'd think I'd rather stay in the RP in that case.
I don't come from the US. I don't leave because my job is to go into
developing countries and help them implement computer systems in the
most effective way possible. You don't wanna listen that's fine, I
still get paid. I have every intention of staying until my contract
finally expires (notwithstanding further extensions). That is the
professional thing to do.
>
> Another question, and this is not a flame, you are expecting first world
> service, attention and quality from third world workers, are you paying
> them first world wages or the P150 minimum. Maybe it could be the you get
> what you pay for. Cheap labor does have its price in the RP.
This is one of the problems, granted. I will ignore the bit about
western wages. You really should look at renumeration against the mean
of the country you are in. The people who I work with get below the
industry average for computer works and operate only a little below
the average. A point in their favour, I believe. There is nothing I
can do about this, I can only work with what I have been given.
On the question of salary, I believe that this could be one method of
tackling corruption. If you were to pay the police a fairly good wage
(as they are in the UK, for example), they would be much less likely
to demand their P300 from every passing motorist. What do you think?
>
>
> ************************************
> ac2...@aol.com
> a member of the Project P Development Team
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
------------------------------------
AC21209
Steve Roach,
I had just finished writing another post and sent it, then I saw your
reply to my first post to you. Possibly, I have come on too harsh to you
in the one I just sent off and I do apologize. Your reply to me leaves me
with the understanding of your position and job there in the RP.
I do heartily commend that you are trying to bring some semblence of life
to the RP workforce. Sometimes, I just think that they are not doing too much.
On the subject of your Chairwoman always being late, unfortunately, that
is the way it goes over there. The one in authority has the luxury of
doing as she pleases. But it is not a matter of her having no respect for
you. on the contrary, she may very well respect you, but it is a sign of
respect and deference for you to wait for her. It's part of the game there.
However, feel free to work in your office until she calls, it will show
her that you are just a bit different than everyone else. A story, my
uncle (a great businessman himself) once worked for a tyrant of a boss in a
very large synthetic corporation, he was a VP, his boss was the President
of the company. Traditionally, one addresses his superior as "Boss" or
"Sir" etc. but my uncle (in some sort of defiance) never did, not for 20
years ever call the Pres "Boss" or "Sir." He just delivered him all the
other amounts of respect and became fantastically successful, retired by
42, he is now in garments, mining and a whole host of other businesses.
Just a side not to show that you can change the rules somewhat and be
successful if you just know how to play the game.
Certainly, one of the most frustrating experiences is being "Yessed" to
death. no matter what you ask a worker, the answer is yes. "Do you
understand?" "Yes" "Are you sure?" "Yes" "Are you and ugly, idiot moron
who likes incestual sodomy?" "Yes" It certainly can be maddening.
I have found that another tactic is to ask the worker to explain back to
me just what it is that I have instructed them on doing. This way I hope
to get a favorable result from my efforts. I work on a production crew and
we have Production Assistants (PA) who usually are just starting out in the
business. And I tell them to do something, they want and do say "Yes" but
the ones I'm really unsure about I ask them to repeat the order. It does
waste some time, but if and when the task is completed correctly, it saves
on time that would have been spent correcting the disaster.
Good luck to your endeavours in the RP and do excuse the attitude of the
last post.
AC21209
Steve Roach wrote the following passages:
"It is the overwhelming application of values alien to the west which
applies to the Philippines. How, for example, would you takle the
endemic corruption. Personally, I can't see the answer to this but
that does not mean there is no answer!"
"I am superior in applying western values to western systems because my
birth culture is immersed in those values. It is instinctive to me but
must be learned by Pilipinos."
"Don't know about the US, I've never been there. Of course, anyone can
be late for a meeting but the point is that during the 18 months I
have worked here, not a single meeting has started on time. I attend
about 4 a week."
It seems by these Postings, Mr Roach is displeased with the conduct of
Philippine business. In the first passage stated that the RP applies many
values ALIEN to the west (i.e. himself) yet he chooses to distance himself
from those standards. Mr. Roach, you are conducting business in the
Philippines, which is a member of country of ASEAN, which is in SouthEast
Asia, also known as the Far East. This is not the west, yet you seem to
desire the Filipinos to change their ways of business to suit your desires.
You stated that you have never been the USA, but you are demonstrating a
classical "ugly American" attitude with great practice.
Is it a matter of ending corruption? You will not be able to end the
corruption that you want to fight against. Play the game. It's business
in the RP, if you should really find the game there distasteful, then you
would be wiser to get out.
In the second quote you take the "superior" stance - of course. Why MUST
the Filipinos learn your "instinctinve" western values? Being in the RP,
you should be the one who must learn our instinctive Filipino styles and
not the other way around. In addition, what western systems there in the
RP are you superior over the Filipinos? Being "on time", making
condescending remarks, offending people? Quite possibly you are the
problem there and, secretly, they would much prefer not to do business with you.
Time, on time - just what is that to you? It seems perfectly obvious that
in 18 months you have not grasped the concept of Filipino time - possibly
you are not that competent. Filipino time allows someone to be half an
hour late and it be perfectly acceptable, more so if the person late is of
higher ranking than you.
It seems that if you have not grasped onto any of the Filipino ways after
being in-country for 18 months, you are the problem sir. Without a doubt,
you are in the RP for your own personal gain and expect Filipinos to do
business with you. You would be better served learning how to play the
game of Philippine Business because you are the foreigner, and probably not
a very well-liked or respected one at that.
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <340d92eb...@199.4.94.14>,
ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Aug 97 14:05:14 GMT, pmana...@csus.edu (Paul Kekai
>Manansala) wrote:
>
>> In article <340d2469...@199.4.94.14>,
>> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
>All right, shall we say they are developed world system but there is a
>huge input from the west (US + Europe). The point is that you are
>taking on those systems right now so your leaders (politicians,
>industrialist, etc) must see them as desireable. If you do not then
>complain to them. I am just advising you on how to take them on
>effectively.
Why advise me (or us)? You also can take it to the folk in charge.
But likely they would kick you out of the office after you mentioned
that their Japanese equipment was a "Western system."
antonqui
On 2 Sep 1997 06:39:21 GMT, in article
<19970902063...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
>
>You want to know why I stay in the US? Prestige. To
>me, It is much more prestigious to have produced
Who are you Mr. AC? Is there any chance you might be
Devon (sorry, I can't recall his first name), the guy
who co-produced the megahit Independence Day? BTW, is
Devon half Filipino?
--A.Qui
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Stephen Roach
On 2 Sep 1997 16:42:43 GMT, ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
[snip]
This is all very interesting stuff, but it was in response to an
original post which asked the question: So in the philippines, the
next question is "is it appropriate to adopt the rules and regulations
of the west or should those laws be circumscribed according to the
cultural context of the country?". I interpreted 'rules and
regulations' to encompass values.
As someone who works in the Philippines and enjoys living here a great
deal (whilst my contributions to this thread have concentrated on the
down side, I could say as much, if not more about the up side), I have
encountered problems in overseeing the implementation of essentially
western systems in the Philippine context. I hoped that this
discussion might help me resolve some of those difficulties.
The main skill which I bring to my work is project management in the
context of implementing computer systems. I am mostly concerned with
the efficient roll out of the systems. Let us first define efficient.
This is, as are many other things, best described in terms of money.
The money is not necessarily real but represents time, effort,
hardware, software and other resources. As all these may be costed in
some way, we use money in order to make comparisons between the
various elements. Thus, efficiency is a description of the amount of
money spent on an activity. The less money to complete the activity,
the more efficient it is. (This is not the same as the efficiency of
the computer systems themselves. That is not my concern here.)
The central structure of any project is the project team. This may be
basic in small applications of may encompass an entire organisation as
in my current project. The role of the team is to drive the various
tasks which finally merge to make the project complete. There are
several values (in MY experience) which enhance this ability. They
are; respect for fellow team members, honesty, trust, etc. Where these
have been present in past projects (in the west), the projects have
largely been successful and 'efficient' (there have, of course, been
failures too). The projects which I have observed in the Philippines
are largely inefficient.
Now, there are several questions which you may wish to address. Is he
desire for efficiency something which the Philippines wants? Is my use
of money as a measure of this acceptable to Pilipinos? Are the values
which I have described valid and present in sufficient amounts in the
Philippines to contribute to the efficiency of project (be they large
or small)?
I can't answer this as I am not Pilipino and I don't fully understand
Pilipino values (but I'm trying, so help me!). If you can then it may
help with my work.
Just to take up the specific comments within my framework:
I believe that the Philippines must align itself more with western
values if it is to take on western systems (computerisation, for
example). I hope this is not an 'ugly American' syndrome (what ever
that is!).
Corruption is highly inefficient. Where bids are won and lost on the
basis of the size of the bribe, the chance that a supplier without the
ability to deliver the product on time and within cost is lower. There
are numerous examples of failed projects where the best bidder was
excluded. I would not 'get out' BTW. There was an assumption in my
hiring that I would have some contribution to make here. I will try
very hard to do that.
I have been trying to learn as much as I can about Pilipino values,
largely through similar discussion to this. There will always be
something I don't understand, I know that. I am simply finding it very
difficult to bolt a western system on top of it. Not a very good fit,
I'm afraid.
Being on time may be acceptable in a Pilipino context but it does not
work within the context of project management. Mutual respect is very
important. If you imply to someone that their meeting is so
unimportant that you can afford to be late, what does that tell you
about team working? You increase the inefficiency of a project because
you are holding people in limbo when they could be doing some useful
work. This allows time plans to slip, bring the project in late and
leads to costs. If continued lateness is important to Pilipinos (and
who am I to say otherwise), then perhaps you should not work within
the project management framework and dump the systems which this is
designed to implement. Either that or accept that costs will be higher
in the Philippines. If I were to independantly bid for a contract here
for a supplier, I would be letting my employer down if I did not
factor this into the costs. This means that the customer will pay a
higher price (thank you :-)). Can you see where all this is leading?
I did not say that I was superior to anyone. Actually the word
'instinctive is not really right (the only instinctive interface being
a nipple, right!). But having been soaked in a culture since birth, my
reaction to people in the context of the values I described is almost
automatic. For Pilipinos immersed in this culture, it is not. I cannot
comment on whether you find it desireable to change.
Certainly one reason for being here is personal gain. That would be
true of anywhere in the world I worked. I do not do business in the
direct way you describe, rather I provide a consultancy service. It is
the refusal of some people to take advantage of this which puzzles me.
But then I'm not a Pilipino, am I?
jwal...@citytelprct85.citytel.net
Do not cast stones: As evidenced by the "entertainment" and "news" in the
Philippines, Filipinos have a tremendous amount more of blood lust than
your average American.
So now who is the Barbarian?
Manong Dibos *elCapitanoDelBoholClub*
In article Johnny Thor wrote:
>supporting Institutionalised Killing aka Death Penalty. Most First World
>Nations have done away with this practice.
>
>Would you like to share your taste for blood with us?
AC21209
As I had mentioned in another post, my response to Mr. Roach (in light of
his actual occupation) was in haste and I apologize for any offence (yes,
it is a British spelling).
You know, Mr. Roach, you may already by aware of this, but there is a book
titled "Understanding the Filipino" by Tomas D. Andres, published by New
Day Publishers of Quezon City. It describes many of the facets of Filipino
life, culture and customs for Westerners to get a better understanding. I
have a copy myself and it is well-written.
Possibly, this book may give you additional insight into the Filipinos.
SCF tends to be filled with people who a searching for nationalism,
ultra-nationalists, trollers, and many of us are from the US, so we may
have a different interpretation of the Filipino way.
They should have the book at any National Bookstore, probably in the
Filipinana Section and it probably costs about P100-P150.
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <3409f357...@snews2.zippo.com>,
mtw...@super.zippo.com (Mike Ward) wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Aug 97 14:05:14 GMT, pmana...@csus.edu (Paul Kekai
>Manansala) wrote:
>
>Not a very smart retort from you Paul. The same argument can be turned
>on you in a heartbeat. Something like this... We sure as hell don't
>need defenders of that elite, slave wage economy, economic caste
>system at that, telling us what's right. I haven't a clue if some of
>the charges thrown at you are correct, only you know that, but you are
>a hypocrite. Without a doubt, you are that. To have any credibility,
>you must criticize injustice where ever it is. You don't do that. You
>ignore or kiss ass when it comes to Filipino exploitation in the RP
>but don't miss a lick when it comes to comes to American flaws.
You're a fool. You make up nonsense about apartheid and caste systems
without having the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
I've never defended exploitation in Filipino society. What I've
done is dare to mention things that could cast white males in
a negative light. That's what the Kanos on this group can't stomach.
They want to keep the subject on penpals, photos of nude Filipino
women and the like.
Why not take your sensitive behind over to alt.culture.whitebonding
where you can feel comfortable. Save a prayer for yourself.
Tikbalang
>GTE/whod...@gte.net
>Date: 5 Sep 1997 12:38:16 GMT
>Message-id: <5uoufo$iak$1...@gte2.gte.net>wrote:
>
>Tchiowa wrote:
>>
>> BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
>>
>> > Tchiowa ..., with or without consent on a 12 year old or
>> > younger, that's statutory rape. Bear in mind that anytime
>> > pedophilia exists, nothing can totally prevent the occurrence
>> > of sex with minors (compared with the majority age of 21)
>> > for which no prosecuting fiscal in the Philippines can fail
>> > to charge criminal wrongdoing against a suspected pedophile.
>> > All these corruption or contributing towards the corruption
>> > of minors, acts of lasciviousness, indecency, immoral public
>> > acts, and other acts against minors can and will be utilized
>> > as aggravating circumstances; or possibly even another
>> > criminal accusation against a pedophile.
>> >
>> > If a competent fiscal has to file an information against you
>> > (CONTRARY TO LAW) in a court of law in the Philippines, it shall
>> > be done so and only TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW !!!
>> >
>> > Now, can you cite ANY Philippine law; any court case or any
>> > judicial ruling or even an opinion which says explicitly that
>> > there are NO laws against pedophilia in The Philippines or
>> > that the law ALLOWS pedophilia to exist legally in The Philippines???
>> >
>>
>> Uh, unless I'm mistaken you just did. Most people everywhere would
>> consider sex with a prepubescent 12 year old as pedophilia. You just
>> said it wasn't rape in the Philippines. It is in the US and most other
>> countries in the world.
>>
>> > FYI, there are multitudes of respected and decent people here in
>> > SCF who know what they are talking about. For you to assert otherwise,
>> > please ..., be kind to yourself. WE NEED NOT TELL YOU WHO WE ARE;
>> > BUT BY OUR POSTINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW, OR ARE IN A POSITION TO KNOW
>> > WHAT WE KNOW !!!
>> >
>>
>> I agree, there are tons of decent wonderful people in this newsgroup.
>> The overwhelming majority of Filipinoes are decent people. As are the
>> overwhelming majority of Americans. I'm talking about the law, or law
>> thereof, in the Philippines. Why is the age of consent 12? Doesn't that
>> constitute legalized pedophilia? Why not change the law to 15-18 like
>> pretty much the rest of the world?
>>
>> > I certainly hope you have been enlightened considerably.
>> > I rest my case ...
>> >
>> > Thank you.
>> >
>> > benjamin
>> > bl...@ix.netcom.com
>> > bl...@earthlink.net
>> > rcd...@tridel.com.ph
>> > Colton, CA 92324
>> > USA
>
>I started reading this thread, and I'm somewhat amused. I know that I'm
>just adding fuel to the fire. But I think your arguements about the
>legal age of consent, and the pedophiles place in all this misses a fact
>all together. I grant you this is only antidotal evidence. But recently
>I went to Angeles City to get what it has the lot of to offer. And by
>accident fell into a ring of female child prostitution being run further
>north on the coast in a small village that will remain nameless. I
>"dated" a girl who turned out to be only 16 working out of a bar, and she
>had a pimp. I got talked into using my rental car to drive her and the
>pimp up north so she could visit her mother. And when we got there, an
>older woman greeted us at the front of a small block house with a very
>weathered wood front door. She was sitting on the small porch in an old
>wood chair. After greetings and all, I was welcomed into the little
>house and introduced to the girls two "sisters." I was told that one was
>twelve and the other ten. And I was invited to dinner along with the
>pimp. Then after dinner the twelve year old went into the only bedroom
>in the house and closed the door behind her. Her "sister" told me that
>she knew that her younger "sister" really liked me, and if I went into
>the bedroom she had a surprise to show me, something very special that
>she was sure I wanted to see. So, with a lot of encouragement, I finally
>hesitately went to door and opened it until I saw the young girl, in bed
>on her back, with legs spread, and naked. The pimp startled me at this
>point from right behind me, encouraging me to take advantage of this
>young girls "willing nature." Now I would like to say I didn't do
>anything, and toke the moral high road. But I didn't. And by the time
>the sun came up the next morning, I also "knew" the ten year old
>"sister." The pimp had recruited quit a few of the villages younger
>females as it turned out. And over the course of the next few days, I
>was personally introduced to at least a dozen or so. I was called upon
>to make numerous donations of ten dollars for each occurance. It had
>only cost me 25 dollars to be with the 14 yr old to begin with for a
>whole night. So, this was quit a money making little business going on
>here. And I met several other American man of my approximate age during
>my little visit. All of whom were also enjoying the opportunity made
>available to them in this little seaside village. None of this was
>exactly hidden, and in two cases the young girls actually got off of
>their own father's dicks to let me have my "turn" with them. So, this
>whole moral discussion is sort of like discussing the merits of different
>kinds of "sealing wax" as far as I can see. I think that poverty is just
>such a powerful motivation in this case that moral arguments just don't
>seem to have a place in the matter at all. That's my view now, after
>experiencing this whole thing for myself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>GTE/whod...@gte.net
>Date: 5 Sep 1997 12:38:16 GMT
>Message-id: <5uoufo$iak$1...@gte2.gte.net>
>
>Tchiowa wrote:
>>
>> BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
>>
>> > Tchiowa ..., with or without consent on a 12 year old or
>> > younger, that's statutory rape. Bear in mind that anytime
>> > pedophilia exists, nothing can totally prevent the occurrence
>> > of sex with minors (compared with the majority age of 21)
>> > for which no prosecuting fiscal in the Philippines can fail
>> > to charge criminal wrongdoing against a suspected pedophile.
>> > All these corruption or contributing towards the corruption
>> > of minors, acts of lasciviousness, indecency, immoral public
>> > acts, and other acts against minors can and will be utilized
>> > as aggravating circumstances; or possibly even another
>> > criminal accusation against a pedophile.
>> >
>> > If a competent fiscal has to file an information against you
>> > (CONTRARY TO LAW) in a court of law in the Philippines, it shall
>> > be done so and only TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE UNDER THE LAW !!!
>> >
>> > Now, can you cite ANY Philippine law; any court case or any
>> > judicial ruling or even an opinion which says explicitly that
>> > there are NO laws against pedophilia in The Philippines or
>> > that the law ALLOWS pedophilia to exist legally in The Philippines???
>> >
>>
>> Uh, unless I'm mistaken you just did. Most people everywhere would
>> consider sex with a prepubescent 12 year old as pedophilia. You just
>> said it wasn't rape in the Philippines. It is in the US and most other
>> countries in the world.
>>
>> > FYI, there are multitudes of respected and decent people here in
>> > SCF who know what they are talking about. For you to assert otherwise,
>> > please ..., be kind to yourself. WE NEED NOT TELL YOU WHO WE ARE;
>> > BUT BY OUR POSTINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW, OR ARE IN A POSITION TO KNOW
>> > WHAT WE KNOW !!!
>> >
>>
>> I agree, there are tons of decent wonderful people in this newsgroup.
>> The overwhelming majority of Filipinoes are decent people. As are the
>> overwhelming majority of Americans. I'm talking about the law, or law
>> thereof, in the Philippines. Why is the age of consent 12? Doesn't that
>> constitute legalized pedophilia? Why not change the law to 15-18 like
>> pretty much the rest of the world?
>>
>> > I certainly hope you have been enlightened considerably.
>> > I rest my case ...
>> >
>> > Thank you.
>> >
>> > benjamin
>> > bl...@ix.netcom.com
>> > bl...@earthlink.net
>> > rcd...@tridel.com.ph
>> > Colton, CA 92324
>> > USA
>
>I started reading this thread, and I'm somewhat amused. I know that I'm
>just adding fuel to the fire. But I think your arguements about the
>legal age of consent, and the pedophiles place in all this misses a fact
>all together. I grant you this is only antidotal evidence. But recently
>I went to Angeles City to get what it has the lot of to offer. And by
>accident fell into a ring of female child prostitution being run further
>north on the coast in a small village that will remain nameless. I
>"dated" a girl who turned out to be only 16 working out of a bar, and she
>had a pimp. I got talked into using my rental car to drive her and the
>pimp up north so she could visit her mother. And when we got there, an
>older woman greeted us at the front of a small block house with a very
>weathered wood front door. She was sitting on the small porch in an old
>wood chair. After greetings and all, I was welcomed into the little
>house and introduced to the girls two "sisters." I was told that one was
>twelve and the other ten. And I was invited to dinner along with the
>pimp. Then after dinner the twelve year old went into the only bedroom
>in the house and closed the door behind her. Her "sister" told me that
>she knew that her younger "sister" really liked me, and if I went into
>the bedroom she had a surprise to show me, something very special that
>she was sure I wanted to see. So, with a lot of encouragement, I finally
>hesitately went to door and opened it until I saw the young girl, in bed
>on her back, with legs spread, and naked. The pimp startled me at this
>point from right behind me, encouraging me to take advantage of this
>young girls "willing nature." Now I would like to say I didn't do
>anything, and toke the moral high road. But I didn't. And by the time
>the sun came up the next morning, I also "knew" the ten year old
>"sister." The pimp had recruited quit a few of the villages younger
>females as it turned out. And over the course of the next few days, I
>was personally introduced to at least a dozen or so. I was called upon
>to make numerous donations of ten dollars for each occurance. It had
>only cost me 25 dollars to be with the 14 yr old to begin with for a
>whole night. So, this was quit a money making little business going on
>here. And I met several other American man of my approximate age during
>my little visit. All of whom were also enjoying the opportunity made
>available to them in this little seaside village. None of this was
>exactly hidden, and in two cases the young girls actually got off of
>their own father's dicks to let me have my "turn" with them. So, this
>whole moral discussion is sort of like discussing the merits of different
>kinds of "sealing wax" as far as I can see. I think that poverty is just
>such a powerful motivation in this case that moral arguments just don't
>seem to have a place in the matter at all. That's my view now, after
>experiencing this whole thing for myself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
What a fucking liar! May I know what village is that you've been
through? Was this happened way back during the Vietnam War that the Clark
Air base still exist?
Come to think of it, what kind of a person who will seduce kids such that
age? This kids are innocents and still babies. Yeah, I heard that also here
in America, where an uncle sodomized a 6 month old nephew, a step-father
raped her 10 year old step-daughter, a 7 year old was enticed by a neighbor
to see his puppy that turned out to be his penis then raped her, murdered
her, and dumped her into a wooded area of the park ( remember Megan's
Law?). And this scenario happened every now and then throughout the United
States. People who are doing that are not human being but ANIMALS and
DEVILS! They are sick person and have no rights to be alive on this planet.
MariaClara
*kamagong*@kurokuro.net wrote:
>
> I know .... I know this is already old news but what can I say except
> my *@#@#@##! ISP has just finished upgrading (what a joke) and its only
> now that I am getting to catch up with the news.
>
> In article <33FE3D...@HotMail.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
>
> [cut-response is deemed useless]
>
> T> I agree. I don't care for those kinds of ads or posts. But I don't argue
> T> with the posters. I only argue with racists and fools.
>
> Tchiowa's statement above summarizes his actions quite well.
> noneedto.bother.me or hopeitnolonger.bother.you
*************************
i have the same isp as you, kamagong, so i know where you're coming
from...
the age of consent in p.i. is 12??? okay, i know i've been away from
p.i. for a long time but 12??? we're about to enter the 21st century
here, don't we need to adjust this? isn't that a little young? okay so
back in the olden days when women would be considered an old maid if
they didn't marry by the age of 21, i can understand a little where the
age of 12 would seem appropriate. but nowadays, well i don't know about
p.i., but here in u.s., women are not really expected to marry until
they're in their 30's even 40's! so to me, the age of consent should
have also been elevated by a few years. 12 sounds a little young for my
daughter to be consenting to sex with an adult.
here in u.s., if an 18 year old were to have sex with my 12 yr old
daughter (let's just say she's 12), he'll get arrested. so because of
this law, it discourages many adult men to have sex with minors. at
least my daughter would be somewhat protected by the law. it limits our
worries down to the raging hormones of teenage boys!
now if i were to bring my daughter to p.i., and she consented to having
sex with an adult, NOTHING happens to him because the philippine law
allows this! their law does not discourage adults to take advantage of
a curious 12 year old child! in the philippines, we'd have to worry
about BOTH adults and teenagers. being a parent, this bothers me a
LOT! i'm pro changing the age of consent from 12 to 18!
when i was 13, my bestfriend (also 13) met a 25 year old man over the
phone. he had called her house, it was the wrong no. and they developed
a secret "friendship" over the phone. finally, out of curiousity, she
had snuck out of the house in the middle of the night while her parents
were asleep to meet him. he was old enough to work and afford a car, so
it made it easier for them to sneak around at night. he picked her up
in his fancy sports car and basically wined and dined her. just those 2
factors (a job and a car) were enough to attract naive 13 year olds who
don't have boys her age old enough to gain access to either one. so the
older the guys were, the more attractive they were...
now, luckily, he wasn't a criminal who could have easily done harm to
her. he told her his family found out about her and ordered him to stop
seeing her or risk going to jail! because of pressures from his family,
he stopped seeing her. in this case, because of the law, it managed to
work itself out without even the knowledge of her parents (to this day
they still don't know about it)...
she's still my bestfriend and she tells me how stupid and naive she was
then!! she thanks the law in helping them "nip it in the bud"!
GTE/wh...@gte.net
Stephen Roach
On 4 Sep 1997 15:13:41 GMT, ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
>
> As I had mentioned in another post, my response to Mr. Roach (in light of
> his actual occupation) was in haste and I apologize for any offence (yes,
> it is a British spelling).
>
> You know, Mr. Roach, you may already by aware of this, but there is a book
> titled "Understanding the Filipino" by Tomas D. Andres, published by New
> Day Publishers of Quezon City. It describes many of the facets of Filipino
> life, culture and customs for Westerners to get a better understanding. I
> have a copy myself and it is well-written.
>
> Possibly, this book may give you additional insight into the Filipinos.
> SCF tends to be filled with people who a searching for nationalism,
> ultra-nationalists, trollers, and many of us are from the US, so we may
> have a different interpretation of the Filipino way.
>
> They should have the book at any National Bookstore, probably in the
> Filipinana Section and it probably costs about P100-P150.
>
>
> ************************************
> ac2...@aol.com
> a member of the Project P Development Team
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Thanks, I'll check it out. Another book I have is 'Filipino Politics'
by David Wurfel (ISBN 971-113-077-7) which puts the modern Philippines
in historical context. I explains much about why stay home Pilipinos
are the way they are. No solutions 'though.
Renfield
GTE/whod...@gte.net wrote in article <5uoufo$iak$1...@gte2.gte.net>...
(whole thread snipped including tripe by a sick fuck)
Whether your story is true or not (highly doubtful) you are a sick fuck for
even posting it on a public forum. BTW congratulations on publicly
confessing to a felony. According current U.S. law it is illegal for a U.S.
citizen to travel abroad with the intent of having sex with a person under
the age of 16. I'm not going to bother to try and find out who this account
at gte.net belongs to but maybe somebody with a little more initiative than
I will and report you to the proper authorities. You are also an idiot for
not using an anonymous remailer to post your crap making it fairly easy to
track down who you are (personally I never used anonymous remailers because
I keep my posted crap within the boundaries of the law). You have alot to
learn about trolling there Michael Jackson (since you didn't name yourself
is it OK if I call you Michael Jackson?).
Now on to the crap that you posted, Michael. If you wanted to screw a 12
year girl you wouldn't have even had to leave Angeles City. All you would
have had to do is take a 10 minute jeepney ride to Barangay Santa Teresita
(aka The Area). Of course if you went alone you would probably get your ass
kicked. This isn't for westerners, its for the Filipinos. I will post at
the bottom an article that appeared in a Philippine newspaper a few months
back that supports what I have just said (this is a repost, sorry to those
who have seen it before). I wouldn't want anyone to have to take my word
for it even though I was at The Area one time and what I saw repulsed me.
Some Filipino friends of mine and myself were in Panniqui, Tarlac one
Sunday to attend sabon (cockfights) at my request. We did quite well
gambling wise that day and on the way back to Manila they suggested we stop
in Angeles City. Now I had been to Ermita but never to Angeles but I knew
that the airbase was there so I was all for it. I didn't know they would be
taking me to The Area (it wasn't until later that I discovered Fields Ave).
What you have in The Area is girls and women ranging from 12-25 years old.
Some of them are held in captive situations (especially the younger ones).
Conditions are filthy and deplorable, much worse than conditions in red
light districts set up catering to foreigners. I saw what looked to be a 13
year old girl nursing a newborn while still try to shag customers. Of
course Mayor Parmintuan and the Chief of police are on the payroll, which
is why the sex trade (both Fields Ave and The Area) still thrives in
Angeles. (Interesting to note that Mayor Parmintuan was almost a beaten man
a few months back when alot of pressure was being applied in the RP press.
Then suddenly the pressure stopped and its still business as usual). This
is one of the articles (most of it) that appeared when pressure was being
put on the mayor.
Perry Butters (neve...@dontbotherme.com)
Please remove NOSPAM before sending email
"The American didn't cheat me. Only the Filipinos."
--Efren Reyes (world champion pool player)
__________________________________________
From the Philippine newspaper Today March 22, 1997
ATTEMPT TO SAVE VICTIMS OF FLESH TRADE MIGHT BE TOO LATE
by Jose Malig
ANGELES CITY-- Barangay Santa Teresita,"Area" to locals, is where most
Kapampangan men first lose their innocence. For a song, as the cliche goes,
here is where the hormone-driven teenaged male is baptized for the second
time in his life.
Money and lust are the two things that have made Santa Teresita endure
through the years. Here, more than 200 independent brothel owners continue
to operate with impunity.
Indeed, Santa Teresita has lasted longer than crusading police officials,
cause-orientated organizations, publicity-hungry politicians, the Pinatubo
onslaught, US Air Force troops' abandonment of Clark Air Base and the
Malacanang order two years ago for authorities to finally clamp down on the
trafficking of women in this Pampanga city.
But a bitterly cruel struggle for survival is being played out in this
small barangay. Here, dignity and self-regard are set aside for the promise
of quick cash. Bodies are but a means for one to have a go for a better
future.
Commercial sex workers here say it is more important to earn something for
the next meal than remain immaculate and pure. It is better to be practical
than righteous.
Tess tells Today she first came here in 1990. She was 14 years old then. "I
came from a poor family in Leyte," she says. "Naranasan kong ulamin 'yung
kape na ibinubuhos lang sa kanin [I experienced eating rice with nothing
else but coffee poured onto it]."
She was recruited in her province by a 40-year-old woman who promised her a
high-paying job in Pampanga. She was immediately taken by her recruiter to
Santa Teresita, where she was brought to a cubicle in one of the brothels,
where her days and nights spin in an endless circle until today.
She was immediately told to "service" clients. The payment given by the
customer, ranging from P100 to P350, she soon learned, is split three
ways--for the pimp, the brothel owner and the sex worker. "Sometimes I have
up to 13, sometimes 15 [customers] daily," she says.
The word "customer" is never spoken here. Pimps and sex workers prefer to
call their customers bisita (guest), perhaps to soften the harsh realities
of the flesh trade.
Seven years after her initiation, she has begun to consider Santa Teresita
her home. She has refused to leave and escape the lifestyle she has become
accustomed to. "Okay na siguro dito'. Nahakalabas naman kami, nakakaalis
'pag walang trabaho. Nasanay na rin ako, kahit paano. Ayaw ko nang dansin
'yung hirap na dinanas ko noon (It's okay here, I guess. We can go out when
we don't customers to attend to. I've become used to it. I don't want to go
through the hardship that I've gone through before)."
Another commercial sex worker, 21-year old Joy, of Buang, La Union, came
from a family of fisherfolk. She looks older than her age.
Joy says she was often beaten up and deprived of food by the maintainer of
the first brothel she worked at when she arrived here. "Binubugbog 'yung
mga babae doon sa isang casa kapog ayaw magtrabaho (They would beat the
women up at the brothel if they did not want to work)," she says. She
shows Today several dark marks in her body caused by beatings.
She discloses that she tried to escape once but was caught by one of the
brothel's pimps. She finally escaped after bribing the brothel's lone
"security guard" and went to work for another brothel just across the
street.
Joy admits there are many minors being held against their will in the
city's brothels. "One of those girls was probably about 12 years old only,"
she said.
This, as critics have said that the raids conducted by police against sex
dens in Santa Teresita are nothing more than a protacted cat-and-mouse
game.............
[Note: This statement turned out to be so true. They closed a few brothels,
posted a few keep out signs for appearances sake until the pressure
relented. Then back to business. Typical Filipino politics...PB]
Anak Pawis
I prefer to post in Pilino but I think I'l try this one...
Mike Ward wrote:
> I just thought of a nickname for you after the statement above
> concerning why I don't take my sensitive ass ..... You sound like
> white trash Pablo, that is the kind of stuff they say.. you're going
> to be 'Bubba' from now on! You like that! ROFL ' Bubba' Manansala,
> that's sounds right for you! You like your new handle, ole Buddy???
Mike, is this a sign that you are running out of things to say and
resort to name calling? Come on.. you can do better than this. Pls
enlighten me on the word "Bubba". You call him "Bubba" and "ole Buddy"
at the same time, that this mean you are also a "Bubba"?
> You even got the praying wrong; we don't pray for you as the
> beneficiary of our petitions. The praying is for the Lord to grant us
> tolerance of your intolerance. This week when I ask the congregation
> to join me, I'll use your new name. 'Bubba' Mananasala. At least 2
> hundred Filipinos and a few whites will pray for 'Bubba' Manansala.
> After the mass, some will ask me who 'Bubba' is. Most will probably
> think it is the brother or some relation of Paul. Your becoming well
> known up here! ROFL
Looks like Paul really got into your nerves huh?
Renfield
Mike Ward <mtw...@super.zippo.com> wrote in article
<3412e7d1...@snews2.zippo.com>...
(one of the best articles I ever read on SCF snipped)
Well if that don't beat all. Someone posting to SCF who actually displays a
little intelligence. I agree with everything Mr. Ward said (especially the
part about Rajah) only I would never state it so politely. Lets see, that
brings the total number of intelligent posters in SCF to ....um....one. Boy
am I glad I only read this group for entertainment purposes only.
Paul Kekai Manansala
Mike Ward is becoming fixated on me just like
Tchiowa. He can't handle any criticism of white
males on this group. He claims to be a liberal
but he sounds more like a patronizing racist.
Imagine a person coming from a nation with one of
the longest histories of apartheid in the world
claiming the Philippines as an apartheid society.
He doesn't give a crap about kayumanngi (of which I
am one myself). How could he when he constantly defends
injustices against non-whites in his own country by making
comparisons with the Philippines? Mike, this is not
alt.culture.white.male.egos. Grow up.
Stephen Roach
On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 06:54:40 GMT, kano...@mosquitonet.com (NOBODY)
wrote:
> Which is the way of much of life. Easy to find fault and point
> fingers but hard to find solutions. In a social context, time is the
> only real aide one has. A small almost meaningless change made by a
> caring citizen who is willing to sacrafice for the better of all
> starts the change, and time brings it to fruit. Killing this tree
> starts with people like Jun b., who say no, and stand up and face the
> hassle to save their own dignity and to make a statement to the system
> that it will not prevail over everyone, even if he is the only
> example.
I think we're getting a bit off topic here. Without thinking, I
suggested that a particular book gave no solutions to Pilipino culture
in the context of taking on western systems. The problem with this,
however, is that there seems to be no agreement that the Philippines
should be taking on western systems anyway, that if they are then they
need to take on western values, or that Pilipino values require
solutions at all.
IMHO, western systems could be of great benefit to the Philippines,
full benefit can only be derived if western values are also
implemented, and solutions are needed (but I don't know what those
solutions might be).
Any thoughts?
Stephen Roach
> In article <340d92eb...@199.4.94.14>,
> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
> >On Sat, 30 Aug 97 14:05:14 GMT, pmana...@csus.edu (Paul Kekai
> >Manansala) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <340d2469...@199.4.94.14>,
> >> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
> >> >On 27 Aug 1997 20:28:56 GMT, gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett
> >> >Valino Pascual) wrote:
> >> >
>
> >All right, shall we say they are developed world system but there is a
> >huge input from the west (US + Europe). The point is that you are
> >taking on those systems right now so your leaders (politicians,
> >industrialist, etc) must see them as desireable. If you do not then
> >complain to them. I am just advising you on how to take them on
> >effectively.
>
> Why advise me (or us)? You also can take it to the folk in charge.
> But likely they would kick you out of the office after you mentioned
> that their Japanese equipment was a "Western system."
>
> (___)
> \_/ Paul Kekai Manansala
And here we get close to the biggest problem (I'm talking about the
'Why advise me (or us)?'. The simple answer is that you need the help,
lots of it and now. A small business could computerise without any
outside assistance, although some sort of rudimentary business plan
would probably help. But when you come to implement a large
distributed system having multiple computer centres and many field
offices then without a strong project management overlay you will
almost certainly fail. The Philippines has only recently come to see
this and has been in a position to implement this. Project management,
as a technique, was developed over decades in the west and many
mistakes were made. However the west has learned from this experience
(not enough in my opinion) and that wealth of experience is now
available to the Philippines (at a cost, of course). It is pure
insanity to insist that you don't need any help and to put your
country on a long and arduous programme of mistakes and mismanagement.
I believe that you have a stark choice; get help or leave the
technology well alone. I have no opinion on whether you should take on
the technology, that is up to you.
antonqui
On Wed, 03 Sep 1997 05:36:35 GMT, ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen
Roach) wrote:
>
> (excerpts:)
>
>Certainly one reason for being here is personal gain. That would be
>true of anywhere in the world I worked. I do not do business in the
>direct way you describe, rather I provide a consultancy service. It is
>the refusal of some people to take advantage of this which puzzles me.
>But then I'm not a Pilipino, am I?
>
>------------------------------------
>Steve Roach
>Remove NOSPAM from address to reply.
>------------------------------------
As they always say, "If you can't lick them, join them". Have fun with
it. In truth, most Filipinos resent being told what to do over and
over again. The reason for this is he most likely have a better idea
than the one he is instructed to execute. Just give him the operating
instructions and manuals, time to read them, and in the long run it
will be the most efficient system to your surprise. He will even make
the most out of junk hardware and software. In short, leave him alone
and you will soon be out of job. The best supervision I know is to be
able to bring out the best in people.
I'm very sure you are enjoying your stay Mr. Roach. I know a couple of
Brits whom I worked with. One guy told me that it is his dream to be
able to work in the Far East, whether it be in Singapore, Malaysia,
the Philippiines, etc. Well, he reasons that he hates the 'wet'
weather in UK.
Perseus
STeve Roach writes:
>IMHO, western systems could be of great benefit to the Philippines,
>full benefit can only be derived if western values are also
>implemented, and solutions are needed (but I don't know what those
>solutions might be).
Good point -- systems and values are not the same. I believe that Filipinos
look up to the West (and to the East, ex: Japan) for the latest in technology,
and are quick to adopt to systems, as their means allow them to. Filipino
values, however, is a strait jacket when it comes to the implementation of new
ideas and technology. I will admit to the good of some values, however, the
more constraining ones inflict the most damage when it comes to assimilating and
implementing learned systems from the West and the advanced nations of the East.
There is also "the problem" of Philippine social structure -- the ocean divide
between the rich and the poor. The dissipated middle class is finding it hard
to fill this gap -- and therefore the concentration of new ideas and tech are
with those who can afford to acquire them. The introduction of nationwide
television should have been a good start, but just like the radio, it
perpetuated the soap opera of the classes -- the rich and the poor. I may be
wrong, but that is how I read it.
I have been away from the islands for some time, but based from what I read from
Philippine media, and hear from other Filipinos, I do not feel optimistic enough
to believe that the transition and adoption by the Philippines of Western values
is in the horizon.
As it is, the political situation is so shaky, that Filipinos abroad, who have
imbibed, learned, and appreciated Western values, who have acquired hard-earned
resources, do not feel confident enough to channel and invest those funds in a
country that remains unstable to date.
I feel so frustrated when I think that values can only be appreciated only when
experienced and lived. I even wonder, had I not left the Philippines, could I
have learned Western values, and now say that Philippine values are constraining
? And come to think of it, a lot of Filipinos who now live in the US still
harbor such negative values manifest in their gambling addiction, endless
"mad-yong" sessions, and petty squabbles amongst associations and groups that
rival and try to discredit each other.
From: Perseus
Frustrations - The Serial
Tansong Isda
Tikbalang wrote:
> > ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach)
> >Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 00:13:10 GMT
> >Message-id: <3425972a...@199.4.94.14>wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >And, lastly, the Philippines has always been good at exporting its
> >expertese (I have heard it said that the reason the infrastructure is
> >falling apart is because all the good builders are in the Middle
> >East!), you must also find ways of keeping some here. I would be sad
> >to see such good people leaking out of the system for better, more
> >highly paid jobs elsewhere after all the effort of training them.
> >------------------------------------
> >Steve Roach
> >Remove NOSPAM from address to reply.
> >------------------------------------
> The best alternative is to abolish the present Government which is adapted
> from the Americans for it is corrupt and very expensive to maintain. It
> must be replaced with some sort kind of system that is suitable for the
> Philippines' environment and mentality of its people. If a Parliamentary
> form of Government works and develops as countries of England and
> Singapore, why not just imitate it? Wake up Filipinos!
Abolish yes, but another form of government did not make those countries
successful, it is the long history of non-interference of these governments in
private enterprise(governments should step in to hash any troubles, with
foreign governments, profiteers, etc...that is the government's role,,to
protect the interest of the nation).
One time I heard if Filipinos only drive at the left side of the road. C'mon,
this will not solve the problem.
There is no check and balance(a true check and balance) in the Philippine
government. Whoever's in power, that one's going to abuse it because of the
patronage and fear system. But, remember that what seems like corruption is
sometimes not at all corruption. I have dealt with lower echelons of the
Chinese(PRC) government and since I am representing a private enterprise, I am
expected to give a parting gift. 'Cest la vie.
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <34155890...@199.4.94.14>,
"Western" systems are not necessary to adapt technology. In fact,
they are not even the most readily adaptable to the Philippine
situation. The Philippines needs to form its own approach in much
the same way other Asian nations have. Your analysis suffers
from the simple fact that you are a bogus and biased observer.
You don't understand the environment and your solutions are
simplistic. The idea that computerization is some kind of magic
wand is silly. Besides any number of non-Western nations are
also capable of helping in this regard.
Yet, I still don't know what all this has to do with Western
values versus indigenous ones?
(___) Paul Kekai Manansala
\_/
/
//
/ / Visit Mt. Apo!
/ /
/ /
/ /
//_/ /
(,_ * }}}>
/> / /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
// Haribon
/
"Yet, the debt is not cleared, another to be taken"
Stephen Roach
On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:49:20 GMT, mtw...@super.zippo.com (Mike Ward)
wrote:
>
> Very true concerning the Filipino knack to improvise with next to
> nothing at times. A talent I appreciate due to a lifestyle that I
> lived for more than a few years. Scarcity combined with the catalyst
> called necessity seems to provide for creativity. They are often quite
> clever in "making to do with nothing" as we say.
>
One thing I admire is the ability to recycle stuff. When was the last
time you saw someone in the west rewind, say, a washing machine
electric motor. We just throw them away!
Stephen Roach
On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:38:30 GMT, joe...@axionet.com (antonqui) wrote:
> As they always say, "If you can't lick them, join them". Have fun with
> it. In truth, most Filipinos resent being told what to do over and
> over again. The reason for this is he most likely have a better idea
> than the one he is instructed to execute. Just give him the operating
> instructions and manuals, time to read them, and in the long run it
> will be the most efficient system to your surprise. He will even make
> the most out of junk hardware and software. In short, leave him alone
> and you will soon be out of job. The best supervision I know is to be
> able to bring out the best in people.
If only time (the real one, not Pilipino) didn't matter but it does.
We have deadlines to meet and those deadlines have a direct impact on
future income. I have no problem with someone tinkering with a system
(just as long as they put it back the way I want it later), but not in
company time. Just to head off the likely accusation of arrogance, if
someone comes to me with an inovation based on their tinkering and has
a better way of doing something than me, then it immediately gets
installed and they get all the credit. I don't care who has the good
ideas as long as they are implemented.
Just a little joke, not for the humour impaired:
There's a Mexican and a Pilipino talking about hundreds of years of
Spanish represion, colonialism, etc. when the Mexican says 'You know,
the Spanish gave us this word, manana. It doesn't exactly mean
tomorrow, it just means *not today*'. The Pilipino thought about this
for a while and said 'Yeah, we have the same word, but it doesn't
carry the same sense of urgency.
> I'm very sure you are enjoying your stay Mr. Roach. I know a couple of
> Brits whom I worked with. One guy told me that it is his dream to be
> able to work in the Far East, whether it be in Singapore, Malaysia,
> the Philippiines, etc. Well, he reasons that he hates the 'wet'
> weather in UK.
You are right, I am enjoying my stay. The wet weather is not the only
reason but it's a factor. The thing I hate the most is the 'nanny
state' thing. The population seems to be thought so little of that the
state takes it on itself to send us home from the pub at 11.00 pm on a
Friday or Saturday night! That's only one example. There are numerous
others. At least here I am allowed to make my own mistakes and take
responsibility for them.
Actually, this makes for a good comparison with the Philippines. I
have this tounge in cheek theory that the Philippines was the great
American capitalism experiment. It goes like this. The Americans took
over from the Spanish and some bright spark in the administration said
'This capitalism stuff. Let's see if it really works'. So they
deliberately took out any and all state controls that they could and
sat back to see what happened. Well, of course, what happened was that
the whole thing went to shit and they crept away under the guise of
handing over independence before anyone noticed. What we see now is
the legacy of this.
Tchiowa
In article <5ulau1$2d8...@news.csus.edu>,> In article <3409f357...@snews2.zippo.com>,
> mtw...@super.zippo.com (Mike Ward) wrote:
> >On Sat, 30 Aug 97 14:05:14 GMT, pmana...@csus.edu (Paul Kekai
> >Manansala) wrote:
> >
>
> >Not a very smart retort from you Paul. The same argument can be turned
> >on you in a heartbeat. Something like this... We sure as hell don't
> >need defenders of that elite, slave wage economy, economic caste
> >system at that, telling us what's right. I haven't a clue if some of
> >the charges thrown at you are correct, only you know that, but you are
> >a hypocrite. Without a doubt, you are that. To have any credibility,
> >you must criticize injustice where ever it is. You don't do that. You
> >ignore or kiss ass when it comes to Filipino exploitation in the RP
> >but don't miss a lick when it comes to comes to American flaws.
>
> You're a fool. You make up nonsense about apartheid and caste systems
> without having the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
>
> I've never defended exploitation in Filipino society. What I've
> done is dare to mention things that could cast white males in
> a negative light. That's what the Kanos on this group can't stomach.
> They want to keep the subject on penpals, photos of nude Filipino
> women and the like.
>
> Why not take your sensitive behind over to alt.culture.whitebonding
> where you can feel comfortable. Save a prayer for yourself.
>
> \_/ Paul Kekai Manansala
Mike, you're missing the point. And Paul proved the point here. He's not
interested in criticizing injustice. He's interested in trying to make
people think he's important. There are two ways to make yourself seem
important: by trying to show you're better than someone else or by trying
to show that someone else is worse than you. The former is preferred,
much more effective. You only try the latter, trying to knock other
people down, if you have nothing good to say about yourself or if there's
nothing you can do that's worthwhile. Then you say "oh those other guys
are soooooo bad". You see which Paul does.
There are a lot of great things about filipinos. (Their wage and economic
situation are not included. Paul is here because their economic situation
and their slave wages, etc. are so bad.) Unfortunately Paul seems a
little self conscious about being filipino and has no pride in his
culture or his people (which he should have) or himself (not surprising)
so he compensates with racist rants about whites.
That's usually the way with racists. That's why they do what they do. And
trying to talk logic to them is a lost cause.
Tchiowa
In article <5u22m8$b...@agate.berkeley.edu>,> Paul Kekai Manansala <pmana...@csus.edu> wrote:
> >Maybe to you a 12 year old is still a child, but in many indigenous cultures
> >in the Philippines they have their own customs that they have practiced since
> >time immemorial. I suspect you think you are in a position to make these
> >judgements for them, or do you just follow whatever lead the West gives you?
>
> Paul brings up an interesting point. To what extent will we support the
> supplanting of indigenous values by values based on that of the West?
>
> Right now, there is a cultural war for the world. We are planting and
> spreading western values into third world countries. The areas where
> these two will collide often lead to war and devastation. I refer to the
> Middle East and Africa.
>
> So in the philippines, the next question is "is it appropriate to adopt
> the rules and regulations of the west or should those laws be
> circumscribed according to the cultural context of the country?"
Do I understand this right? Are our two college boys trying to say that
it is a filipino "value" that it's OK to have sex with a 12 year old
girl? Is that a filipino "value"? Or is this just another line of garbage
to avoid the actual issue? If it is a "value" then I suppose you have no
problem with tourist bouncing over to P.I. to nail a few kids, as long as
they're at least 12. Is that it? Or is it only a filipino "value" for
filipinos to screw 12 year olds? Is that what the complaints about sex
tourism are all about? Are you two afraid that there are not enough kids
to go around for the filipinos and the tourists so you want to reserve
the 12 year olds for yourselves?
If the above argument sounds facetious, it is. But no more facetious than
the claim that we're talking about filipino "values". We're talking about
kids!!
And no, Paul, I don't follow whatever lead the West gives me. I follow my
conscience. You should try developing one before you hop on a news group
and defend pedophilia in the name of "values". Methinks maybe you spent a
little too much time in The Area in Angeles.
tchi...@hotmail.com
In article <19970901172...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
>
> Perseus wrote:
> "One big difference -- we can march and not be shot at !! We can march
> and not be afraid that we will be hounded by government men. "
>
> Exsqueeze me? What little dominion of the country are you living in
> Perseus? You are right, we can march, but we do have to worry about being
> hounded by government men in the good ole US of A. And we do have to worry
> about being shot at. Possibly you are out somewhere in rural Kansas, but
> in the metropolitan areas of the country you do have to worry about alot of
> things.
I live in the Bay Area. And he's completely right. How many people got
shot by police during Critical Mass? Every month? Try that in Manila.
>
> "We can march, and still buy food cheap from the supermarkets."
> Do you call $5 for a box of cereal and $5 for a gallon of milk cheap? Or
> how about $2 a lb for chicken parts? $1.75 a gallon for gas cheap?
>
Based on comparative costs with per capita income the USA has far and
away the cheapest food prices overall on the planet.
Milk and gas are double and triple that price in many places in Europe.
They're a bit cheaper in the Philippines (as an example) but the average
income there is probably what, a tenth what it is here? Let's try it.
Minimum wage here is $5 and something. That's $200 a week, $10,000 a
year. Minimum wage in the Philippines is I would guess about 200 or so
pesos a day (that is a guess, based on what I know common laborers make,
less than 7,000 pesos a month). That's about $21 or $22 a week. That's
pretty much 10 to 1. That means milk would have to sell for 50 cents a
gallon in the Philippines to compare.
> You know, I do agree with you that the USA is a better place to live than
> anywhere else, but to read your painting on it, you would think that we all
> lived the Norman Rockwell 50s white man version of life in these United
> States. You, somewhere along the way, will have to learn that not all of
> us do live your life.
You're right. But the important part in the US is that all of us CAN!!
And most of us in fact do. Some of the anti-USer's in this group like to
point out the occasional blemish (and there are some) in the US and try
to make people believe that's the way it is all the time for everyone.
For most people in most situations in the US we do live a damn good life.
And that's something that you can't say right now about the Philippines.
Hopefully some day you will be able to. But then, they'll have to change
some of their ways of doing things. And maybe some of their "values".
>
> ************************************
> ac2...@aol.com
> a member of the Project P Development Team
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
AC21209
No, KanoMarv, I do agree.
It is imperative that the RP raise the rates for professional level jobs
and skilled laborers. As Filipino engineers and other professionals flock
out of the country seeking a better livelihood, the RP needs to invest in
these people. They need to show these people that it can indeed be
profitable for them to stay in the Philippines and contribute to their nation.
***********************************
ac21209 @The Valley, Cali
Newest 4 Play Video Cameraman! DD#81
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
AC21209
Tchiowa, Part 2 is back to try and delusion us with more inflammatory
remarks and ridiculous banter:
"Do I understand this right? Are our two college boys trying to say that
it is a filipino "value" that it's OK to have sex with a 12 year old
girl? Is that a filipino "value"? Or is this just another line of garbage
to avoid the actual issue? If it is a "value" then I suppose you have no
problem with tourist bouncing over to P.I. to nail a few kids, as long as
they're at least 12. Is that it? Or is it only a filipino "value" for
filipinos to screw 12 year olds? Is that what the complaints about sex
tourism are all about? Are you two afraid that there are not enough kids
to go around for the filipinos and the tourists so you want to reserve
the 12 year olds for yourselves?"
Unfortunately Tchiowa, Part2, you seem unable to understand anything that
anyone says on SCF. The two "college boys" have offered a thread on
certain old-time Filipino customs in which boys and girls would be entered
into marriage at an age that in today's society seems too young. What
these two boys are talking about is wholly different than what you are
trying to infer out of it. They are simply talking about marriage customs
and you, back from wherever you were, are trying to shape their discussion
into a pedophilia v. non-pedophilia issue. It simply is not.
Quite simply, a 12 yo getting married in the old world was rather normal.
At 13, Leonora Rivera was already the fiancee to Jose Rizal. There is
quite a major difference in your case and theirs. The two "college boys"
do not want to see laws in the Philippines being written in order to
appease Western Dictum. They are talking, in essence, on the very survival
of the Philippines - the right to command it's own doctrine and destiny.
If you would go back and read, I mean actually read this time, the whole
thread, you will see that nowhere did they say that they were supporters of
Pedophilia, not did they infer such a position.
The only fanatic in this discussion is you, Tchiowa-Part2, you seem to
lack any ability to understand the situation here. You would be one of
those who believe the state to be correct when they sent the 18yo boy to
jail because he had impregnated his 16yo girlfriend, even though he had
offered to marry her and support their child. This happened in America TP2.
And in this justice was served?
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <5v2ged$r...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
>
>I have been away from the islands for some time, but based from what I read from
>Philippine media, and hear from other Filipinos, I do not feel optimistic enough
>to believe that the transition and adoption by the Philippines of Western values
>is in the horizon.
>
I am afraid you have it all mixed up. The Fiilpinos have for some
time been considered the most Westernized Asians, and maybe rightly
so. This has contributed to their downfall. While more traditional
Asians have forged ahead, Filipinos bent on imitating the West
have lagged behind. They have not adapted a suitable system to meet
specific *Filipino* requirements. Yes, they speak English, blah,
blah, blah, but what good has it done them? Are they supposed
to work overseas as domestics forever? What can you say about
Third Worlders who act like Western consumers they see on the
screen or read about in the media?
Stephen Roach
On Tue, 09 Sep 1997 07:01:52 -0600, tchi...@HotMail.com (Tchiowa)
wrote:
> In article <5u22m8$b...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> gldn...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Rhett Valino Pascual) wrote:
> >
> > Paul Kekai Manansala <pmana...@csus.edu> wrote:
> > >Maybe to you a 12 year old is still a child, but in many indigenous cultures
> > >in the Philippines they have their own customs that they have practiced since
> > >time immemorial. I suspect you think you are in a position to make these
> > >judgements for them, or do you just follow whatever lead the West gives you?
>
> Do I understand this right? Are our two college boys trying to say that
> it is a filipino "value" that it's OK to have sex with a 12 year old
> girl? Is that a filipino "value"? Or is this just another line of garbage
> to avoid the actual issue? If it is a "value" then I suppose you have no
> problem with tourist bouncing over to P.I. to nail a few kids, as long as
> they're at least 12. Is that it? Or is it only a filipino "value" for
> filipinos to screw 12 year olds? Is that what the complaints about sex
> tourism are all about? Are you two afraid that there are not enough kids
> to go around for the filipinos and the tourists so you want to reserve
> the 12 year olds for yourselves?
I think that Rhett has a good point. There is a problem now with
western societies which will surely make itself known outside the
west. We can all agree that there should be an age of consent, i.e.
below which sex is prohibited and above which sex is legal to some
extent. There has always been a debate, 'though, about what this age
should be. The UK has this at 16, I understand that in the US it can
vary from 14 to 21 (is this still the case?). The age is usually set
after some debate about the age of puberty and the age at which people
become responsible enough to make informed decisions. Personally, I
think that 16 is about right.
The problem is that as nutrition and education improve, the markers
for this in a given population become younger. Puberty occurs earlier
and people are better informed younger. The young people themselves
start to ignore the law because they feel that it no longer applies to
them. The symptoms of this are the general feeling of the lowering of
moral standards (but which society doesn't have someone banging on
about that?).
Rhett Valino Pascual
In article <8738059...@dejanews.com>, Tchiowa <tchi...@HotMail.com> wrote:
>Mike, you're missing the point. And Paul proved the point here. He's not
>interested in criticizing injustice. He's interested in trying to make
>people think he's important. There are two ways to make yourself seem
>and their slave wages, etc. are so bad.) Unfortunately Paul seems a
>little self conscious about being filipino and has no pride in his
>culture or his people (which he should have) or himself (not surprising)
>so he compensates with racist rants about whites.
I still don't get it. You say paul is racist be he brings up events where
the white dominant majority used its power to oppress people?
I have to ignore the MIke and Paul debate because that has gone into the
personal feelings of the two. However, your accusations about Paul having
no filipino pride nor self-pride is absolutely ridiculous. You can't even
prove it. Go ahead, make a list of things that would suggest such a
thing. You can't because you are lying.
As for Paul bringing up problems in the philippine society, he has never
denied that there are problems in the philippines. hell, there are
problems everywhere. you argue with paul about the injustices in america
by saying that there are injustices in the philippines. it is indeed
factual but it does not address the problems in the us. pointing out that
there is injustice in the philippines does not give a solution about the
problems in the united states. it merely muddles the point.
REtong
--