Bisaya
Timothy Joseph Harvey
"Bisaya in Context." Yep, an overblown title, to be sure. It's really just
a layman's article, not technical, about the Bisayan language family in
context of the larger Austonesian family and as part the Philippine's 175 or
so languages. If anyone is interested in this, have a look. It's a work in
progress, so comments and suggestions are appreciated.
Tim
Chris S.
Hiya Tim!
Great to see that you're updating your website, I haven't read all of
the articles under the _Bisaya in Context_ heading, but I've found the
ones I've already read interesting.
I've been thinking about what I'm going to do with myself in the
future... Linguistics is definitely a go for me, along with another
co-major. A participant on the Mayon egroups list is a linguist for
Central Philippine languages, focusing on Bicol now.. and field studies
in the language like he's doing sounds like something I want to do at
least once :)..
I just wish though that the schools in my area have a greater emphasis
on Filipino languages...
Hope to see some more,
--Chris
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Timothy Joseph Harvey
I make it a point to follow your posts, and you seem very informed about
linguistics and related subjects. I'm glad to see it as it's an interest to
me. . . I've found my studies to be enormously helpful in my profession -
software engineering. Besides the obvious connections (Noam Chomsky's
formalisms for instance), it is helpful in viewing the problem of designing
systems for people in terms of "language solutions." Have you considered
computational linguistics - linguistics with a computer science minor?
Tim
Chris S. wrote in message <8hjl2s$he1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
visayan terms and how they are compared with today's
day to day language. Ever heard of the word "wagtang"?
I'm aware Visayan language is very strict is specifics.
Husband is bana and wife is asawa just to make an example.
Ferdinand
Timothy Joseph Harvey wrote:
> I just posted an article about Bisaya at http://www.bisaya.com called
> "Bisaya in Context." Yep, an overblown title, to be sure. It's really just
> a layman's article, not technical, about the Bisayan language family in
> context of the larger Austonesian family and as part the Philippine's 175 or
> so languages. If anyone is interested in this, have a look. It's a work in
> progress, so comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Tim
Chris S.
"Timothy Joseph Harvey" <har...@atoni.com> wrote:
> I make it a point to follow your posts, and you seem very informed
> about linguistics and related subjects. I'm glad to see it as it's an
Thanks, Tim.. I'm slowly educating myself about the languages of the
Philippines..
> software engineering. Besides the obvious connections (Noam Chomsky's
> formalisms for instance), it is helpful in viewing the problem of
I've heard so much about Noam Chomsky, and I have an idea of his role
in the field.. Yet I'm ashamed to admit that I know very little about
what he's all about... but that should change.
> systems for people in terms of "language solutions." Have you
> considered computational linguistics - linguistics with a computer
> science minor?
Computer science has always been a possibility for me... I'm considering
it and others very carefully.. but I do want to do something with
computers too..
Peter Manders
> I'm aware Visayan language is very strict is specifics.
> Husband is bana and wife is asawa just to make an example.
Hmmm, there must be regional differences. My wife always refers to me as
"asawa ko" and explained that this is common in Bisaya.
--
Peter Manders.
"I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it."
Please remove the 'u' to reply.
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Peter Manders wrote:
>
>
> "asawa ko" and explained that this is common in Bisaya.
>
Nope. The claim is false. The from which province she came from?I would
admit that there could be regional differences but the
majority of the "true Visayan speaking" regions
wouldn't address their spouse as "asawa ko". Perhaps she could be from a
mixed
tagalog/visayan province where geographic location is contributory.
I have a sister-in-law from Masbate (still part of the Visayas) and she
does speaks partly tagalog and partly visayan.
The town she came from is facing north (to Manila) has some
tagalog terms (like asawa ko) but those towns facing south (to Cebu) are
using pure Visayan.
This may apply also to most parts in Iloilo and (Hiligaynon/Tagalog) and
some
parts in Negros.
and farther south, in areas which are heavily settled by
Tagalog speaking migrants like Cotabato in Mindanao.
"Asawa ko" is not common in the Central Visayas. I would say,
yes maybe, in the outskirts. Ask her two questions for me. Let me assume
you're a
handsome man. The question is, how does she call you when you are handsome?
Ask her also if the word "maldita" is common in their place and what is it?.
>
>
Ferdinand
The One-Liner
When most Filipinos say, "Bisaya" they literally mean Cebuano, though
Leyte, Samar, Bohol, Iloilo, Capiz etc. also speak Bisayan their own
way.
Masbate, basically, is part Western Visayas. Dominating dialect -
Ilonggo. Though Aklan and Romblon vary greatly yet, but heavily
populated provinces as Iloilo, including Guimaras and Negros plus Capiz
and Antique (with about 75% and 60% similarity with Ilonggo
respectively) making Ilonggo (not necessarily Hiligaynon) the dominant
dialect in these areas. Aklan and Romblon have their own unique dialect
which contains some 30% Tagalog, though younger generation jackup this
percent much higher.
Asawa (spouse) in Aklan is applied like that in English. They don't
have specifics as husband (bana) and wife (asawa). Both are called
asawa. Yes, Ilonggo does - but not all too. Heard of "alibayon"?
I don't think Cebuano uses "bana" for husband.
Ilonggos who haven't been in Katagalogan provinces are so poor in
Tagalog. Also, an Iloilo guy who's first time in Aklan may feel Aklan
dialect as Greek to them - though both provinces are located on the
same island of Panay. (Sorry guys, this is just my observation.)
BTW, maldita/maldito is bad girl/boy.
oneliner
In article <393F7D03...@hotmail.com>,
Novus Ordo Seclorum Signum de Volpus Marina
> I don't think Cebuano uses "bana" for husband.
Uh ...They/we do : )
> Ilonggos who haven't been in Katagalogan provinces are so poor in
> Tagalog. Also, an Iloilo guy who's first time in Aklan may feel Aklan
> dialect as Greek to them - though both provinces are located on the
> same island of Panay. (Sorry guys, this is just my observation.)
Goes to show you how disparate & unique the provincial identities & ties are in the Visayas, even when
from the same island.
l8r
- Dominic
[taga Panay]
--
Copyright © 2000 C5GP All Rights Reserved
In Consistent Pursuit of ISO 9006 Compliance
&
<http://www.egroups.com/group/soc_culture_filipino/info.html>
Timothy Joseph Harvey
different areas. As I've said before, the language in use for any area is a
"mix," and that is what foreigners interested in learning "the language"
find frustrating - dictionaries and "pure language" texts only partially
work at best.
No "bana" in Bisaya?! Hmmm, I guess that means I'm free to act single
again. Until your revelation, I always thought. . . Ako bana ni Jane.
BTW, I think you have your history flip-flopped. The areas I've gone and
talked to people about they speak. . . all note that they do NOT speak
Cebuano, but their own related dialect collectively knows as Bisaya.
Historically, I think it is a relatively recent thing (70s under Marcos) for
the powers that be to call/suggest that the regional language is Cebuano. .
. with dialects of it. This attitude hasn't seemed to caught up with the
people yet. . . who seem to know what they are talking about. . . when they
say they speak Bisaya, not Cebuano.
I think you caught a similar distinction elsewhere in your post when you
distinguished between Hiligaynon and Ilonggo.
Thanks again. I always enjoy and learn from listening to people talk about
languages spoken in their area.
Tim
The One-Liner wrote in message <8hoad1$vqr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
>When most Filipinos say, "Bisaya" they literally mean Cebuano, though
>Leyte, Samar, Bohol, Iloilo, Capiz etc. also speak Bisayan their own
>way.
>
>Masbate, basically, is part Western Visayas. Dominating dialect -
>Ilonggo. Though Aklan and Romblon vary greatly yet, but heavily
>populated provinces as Iloilo, including Guimaras and Negros plus Capiz
>and Antique (with about 75% and 60% similarity with Ilonggo
>respectively) making Ilonggo (not necessarily Hiligaynon) the dominant
>dialect in these areas. Aklan and Romblon have their own unique dialect
>which contains some 30% Tagalog, though younger generation jackup this
>percent much higher.
>
>Asawa (spouse) in Aklan is applied like that in English. They don't
>have specifics as husband (bana) and wife (asawa). Both are called
>asawa. Yes, Ilonggo does - but not all too. Heard of "alibayon"?
>
>I don't think Cebuano uses "bana" for husband.
>
>Ilonggos who haven't been in Katagalogan provinces are so poor in
>Tagalog. Also, an Iloilo guy who's first time in Aklan may feel Aklan
>dialect as Greek to them - though both provinces are located on the
>same island of Panay. (Sorry guys, this is just my observation.)
>
>
Timothy Joseph Harvey
certainly enjoy and benefit from what you have to say here. And, I'm
encouraged too. . . since I know that at least one other person here is
interested in language too.
Time to cut and run. . . off to work.
Tim
Chris S. wrote in message <8hl5bd$kqj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Mdlrwhit
>I have a sister-in-law from Masbate (still part of the Visayas) and she
>does speaks partly tagalog and partly visayan.
Excuse me....Masbate is one of the province in Bicol. Bicol Region is a part
of Luzon not Visaya.
The One-Liner
"Timothy Joseph Harvey" <har...@atoni.com> wrote:
> No "bana" in Bisaya?! Hmmm, I guess that means I'm free to act single
> again. Until your revelation, I always thought. . . Ako bana ni Jane.
Sorry, I thought they have some other term for "bana" in Cebu, but
this guy from Dumaguete (Negros Oriental - dialect, Cebuano) says it's
also "bana". That settles that.
> BTW, I think you have your history flip-flopped. The areas I've gone
and
> talked to people about they speak. . . all note that they do NOT speak
> Cebuano, but their own related dialect collectively knows as Bisaya.
You're right, collectively - should be Bisaya. Try this: Once you
meet a Cebuano ask him whether he knows Bisaya. He will not ask you
which Bisayan (dialect) you mean, but instead he will response, "yes".
That is because he thought, you mean Cebuano (dialect). Ilonggo, Waray,
Bo-olano, etc. may reply to the same question with a description such
as as: "yes - Ilonggo", etc.
> Historically, I think it is a relatively recent thing (70s under
Marcos) for
> the powers that be to call/suggest that the regional language is
Cebuano. .
> . with dialects of it. This attitude hasn't seemed to caught up with
the
> people yet. . . who seem to know what they are talking about. . .
when they
> say they speak Bisaya, not Cebuano.
No decree can force people to follow what the government dictates
especially on this matter.
> I think you caught a similar distinction elsewhere in your post when
you
> distinguished between Hiligaynon and Ilonggo.
Hiligaynon is like an old Shakespearean English. You can hardly
find an Ilonggo who speaks 100% Hiligaynon on daily usage nowadays, not
even Conrado Norada a well-known Hiligaynon writer/journalist. People
from Iloilo City and immediate surrounding areas may be called Ilonggos
but you can't say they speak Hiligaynon. Case in point: I mentioned
once the word "latok" to some Ilonggo friends (40's and older), and
they were puzzled on what I mean. "Latok" is a Hiligaynon word
for "lamesa" or "table". I was so surprise, they don't know it.
"Ilonggo" dialect from Calinog, Lambunao or Janiuay may differ some 40
to 50% from those towns of Tubungan, Guimbal, Igbaras, or Miag-ao,
though all termed their dialect as "Karay-a" or "kinaray-a" ... all
these towns are part of Iloilo.
... and who was wondering why Ilonggo can't understand Aklanon?
oneliner
> >> I have a sister-in-law from Masbate (still part of the Visayas) and
> >she
> >> does speaks partly tagalog and partly visayan.
> >> The town she came from is facing north (to Manila) has some
> >> tagalog terms (like asawa ko) but those towns facing south (to
Cebu)
> >are
> >> using pure Visayan.
> >> This may apply also to most parts in Iloilo and
> >(Hiligaynon/Tagalog) and
> >> some
> >> parts in Negros.
> >> and farther south, in areas which are heavily settled by
> >> Tagalog speaking migrants like Cotabato in Mindanao.
> >> "Asawa ko" is not common in the Central Visayas. I would say,
> >> yes maybe, in the outskirts. Ask her two questions for me. Let me
> >assume
> >> you're a
> >> handsome man. The question is, how does she call you when you are
> >handsome?
> >> Ask her also if the word "maldita" is common in their place and
what
> >is it?.
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
>
>
--
When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of
twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty." Q:
What is the difference between a tick and a lawyer? A: A tick falls off
you when you die. Q: What do call a lawyer with an IQ of 50? A: Your
Honor. No, we're not talking of olde Judge Roy Bean - The Law West of
the Pecos.
Eduardo Cuansing
> Masbate, basically, is part Western Visayas. Dominating dialect -
> Ilonggo. Though Aklan and Romblon vary greatly yet, but heavily
> populated provinces as Iloilo, including Guimaras and Negros plus
> Capiz and Antique (with about 75% and 60% similarity with Ilonggo
> respectively) making Ilonggo (not necessarily Hiligaynon) the dominant
> dialect in these areas. Aklan and Romblon have their own unique
> dialect which contains some 30% Tagalog, though younger generation
> jackup this percent much higher.
Nice several one-liners, One-Liner Guy. ;) There are just 2 points that I
find perplexing (because they are contradictory to what I thought I knew -
but I could be wrong).
First point is that you consider Ilonggo a dialect. Aren't Ilonggos the
people who reside in Western Visayas? Doesn't the word "Ilonggo" refer to
the people and not to the dialect? I grew up in Bacolod and consider my
native language as Hiligaynon. My grandmother is from Antique and speaks
Karay-a (which is very close to Hiligaynon). But we still do consider
ourselves Ilonggo (still a Filipino, of course). ;)
My second question is that isn't Hiligaynon a language rather than a
Tagalog dialect? I could consider Karay-a as a Hiligaynon dialect (and
vice versa) but I don't think I could consider either as a Tagalog
dialect. But again, I may be wrong.
Additional info: People in Negros Occidental (western part of Negros)
predominantly speak Hiligaynon while those in Negros Oriental (eastern
part - closer to Cebu) speak Bisaya.
> Ilonggos who haven't been in Katagalogan provinces are so poor in
> Tagalog.
It might be because the Tagalog intonation is so different from
Hiligaynon. Plus, the sentence constructions are different. The
Hiligaynon intonation is usually something that Tagalog speakers laugh at.
> Also, an Iloilo guy who's first time in Aklan may feel Aklan dialect
> as Greek to them - though both provinces are located on the same
> island of Panay. (Sorry guys, this is just my observation.)
I still can't comprehend Karay-a perfectly. This is also the same with my
Bisaya comprehension.
Ed
--
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~cuansing
Chris S.
mdlr...@aol.com (Mdlrwhit) wrote:
> Excuse me....Masbate is one of the province in Bicol. Bicol Region is
> a part of Luzon not Visaya.
That's right. Just because it has Visayan influence, doesn't necessarily
make it part of the Visayas. Masbateño & Bikolano are spoken by over
half of the population.. usually in the northern parts. Eastern Masbate
is mostly Waray-speaking.. Then there's Cebuano & Boholano in Southeast
Masbate and Hiligaynon & Capiznon in Western Masbate.
That's a lot for a little island(s)!
--Chris
Chris S.
<Pine.LNX.4.10.100060...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu>,
Eduardo Cuansing <e...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu> wrote:
> My second question is that isn't Hiligaynon a language rather than a
> Tagalog dialect? I could consider Karay-a as a Hiligaynon dialect
> (and vice versa) but I don't think I could consider either as a
> Tagalog dialect. But again, I may be wrong.
In the end, Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a are separate languages, though
closely related. It's highly possible that between them there is a
"continuum" of closely related dialects and Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a are
on each end. *BUT* I'm not sure.
According to some Philippine linguists' theories, Hiligaynon was at one
time a "pidgin."
A pidgin results when people use vocabulary from different languages.
In Hiligaynon's case, the languages are Tagalog, Cebuano, Aklanon,
Kinaray-a, and other languages of Panay. All this started in Western
Bisayas, particularly in Iloilo.
There's also some claim among the Karay-a that Hiligaynon is theirs..
Hmm!
And so eventually the Hiligaynon pidgin became more complex over the
past hundred years and became a language.
This is a summary of a linguist's summarization of other linguist's
conclusions :)
Mdlrwhit
>
>That's right. Just because it has Visayan influence, doesn't necessarily
>make it part of the Visayas.
Thank you, Chris.
Eduardo Cuansing
> In the end, Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a are separate languages, though
> closely related. It's highly possible that between them there is a
> "continuum" of closely related dialects and Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a
> are on each end. *BUT* I'm not sure.
Thanks for the information, Chris. So, in fact, Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a
are considered separate languages (as opposed to dialects). As a native
Hiligaynon speaker, I already find Kinaray-a to be very close to
Hiligaynon (which are way too different from Tagalog). I've always been
wondering about this, at what point do we consider something to be a
language rather than a dialect?
> According to some Philippine linguists' theories, Hiligaynon was at
> one time a "pidgin."
Yeah, I also heard something like that before.
> A pidgin results when people use vocabulary from different languages.
> In Hiligaynon's case, the languages are Tagalog, Cebuano, Aklanon,
> Kinaray-a, and other languages of Panay. All this started in Western
> Bisayas, particularly in Iloilo.
Hiligaynon though uses more Spanish words than *some* of the Philippine
languages (but not all, especially Chavacano - is this right, EG?). The
intonation is also different from Tagalog, Cebuano, and Kinaray-a. It's
more sing-song like than the others. Maybe the language did originate
from Iloilo but I'm not sure it was derived from Tagalog and Cebuano.
But I really don't know. Maybe you can give some more light on this?
Right now I regret that I didn't study my native language's history. But
I guess that's partly because I didn't learn how to speak it formally.
Besides, I'm not sure there are any formal courses on Hiligaynon, not even
at places where it's spoken by the natives.
> This is a summary of a linguist's summarization of other linguist's
> conclusions :)
Can you still remember where you got these summaries?
TIA,
Ed
--
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~cuansing
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Mdlrwhit wrote:
> >"Ferdinand V. Mendoza" budm...@hotmail.com
>
> >I have a sister-in-law from Masbate (still part of the Visayas) and she
> >does speaks partly tagalog and partly visayan.
>
> Excuse me....Masbate is one of the province in Bicol. Bicol Region is a part
> of Luzon not Visaya.
>
I must be wrong then but what I know is that "geographically" it is part ofthe
Visayas though culture might say it's more of a part of Luzon. One Liner
also mentioned that basically, Masbate is part of the Western Visayas.
Anyone can enlighten?
Ferdinand
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
The One-Liner wrote:
> When most Filipinos say, "Bisaya" they literally mean Cebuano, though
> Leyte, Samar, Bohol, Iloilo, Capiz etc. also speak Bisayan their own
> way.
>
In a way it is and this reminds me of a weekly magazine published bythen
Gen. Hans Menzi called "Bisaya" and yes, it contains the widely
used "Cebuano bisaya" version.
>
>
>
> BTW, maldita/maldito is bad girl/boy.
Bad is generic. You might say naughty or mischievous.
>
Ferdinand
Chris S.
<Pine.LNX.4.10.100060...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu>,
Eduardo Cuansing <e...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu> wrote:
> close to Hiligaynon (which are way too different from Tagalog). I've
> always been wondering about this, at what point do we consider
> something to be a language rather than a dialect?
It's rather complicated, but ultimately it boils down to mutual
intelligibility - or simply, understanding each other with no prior
exposure of the other's language.
Why is it complicated to pinpoint a language and a dialect?
Below are fictitious towns on some fictitious island in the Phils. Town
"A" and Town "J" have speakers who speak totally different languages,
but related to each other. The towns are along a river:
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - H - I - J
People in towns A and B can understand each other real well, but people
in town C have can't really understand town A. Town C inhabitants can
understand B and D people. Similarly, people in Town J can easily
understand people in I but not in town H and more less in Town G.
This is what is called a "dialect continuum." You have a chain of
closely related, but different dialects in a geographic region. At the
end of each chain are two mutually unintelligible dialects. Enough to
call them languages. But what about the others in the chain? Do we call
those languages too or just dialects? Maybe in relation to Tagalog,
dialect F can be a language.
That's the problem in the Philippines. It's not always easy. That's
why when I refer to Bicol now, I refer to the Bicol languageS. There is
not one sole Bikol language or dialect.
And I must add, between German and Dutch there's a similar contiuum...
But remember next time someone claims that Tagalog is the only language
and that the rest are just dialects.. Ask him/her.. "Dialects of what?"
> more sing-song like than the others. Maybe the language did originate
> from Iloilo but I'm not sure it was derived from Tagalog and Cebuano.
Well it could be just the words.
> But I really don't know. Maybe you can give some more light on this?
What I have cited is really all I had.
> Besides, I'm not sure there are any formal courses on Hiligaynon, not
> even at places where it's spoken by the natives.
Did you ever hear of the website titled "Nagatuon ako sang Ilonggo?"
There's a link to it on Tim's Bisaya site.
> Can you still remember where you got these summaries?
Well I got the summarization from Tagalog/Bikol linguist Jason Lobel.
He says he got it from linguistic literature that's available about that
area. I'll ask if he can produce the names of the books (he recently
went from UCSD to Naga to teach, so I hope he has time).
See ya,
Just JT
"Ferdinand V. Mendoza" <budm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39406923...@hotmail.com...
>
> I must be wrong then but what I know is that "geographically" it is part
ofthe
> Visayas though culture might say it's more of a part of Luzon. One Liner
> also mentioned that basically, Masbate is part of the Western Visayas.
> Anyone can enlighten?
----------------
Geographically and politically, Masbate is part of the Bicol region. Bicol
is composed of the provinces of Camarines Norte, Camarines Sur, Albay,
Sorsogon, Catanduanes (island) and Masbate.
Yes it is a group of islands close to the Visayan islands. Masbate is in
fact northeast of Romblon, province/island which is part of Visayas. But,
nope, it ain't part of Visayas.
Hope this is clear,
--
Talk to me at
Johnn...@Hotmail.com
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Peter Manders
>
> Peter Manders wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "asawa ko" and explained that this is common in Bisaya.
> >
>
> Nope. The claim is false. The from which province she came from?I would
> admit that there could be regional differences but the
> majority of the "true Visayan speaking" regions
> mixed
> tagalog/visayan province where geographic location is contributory.
She's from a little island connected to the west of Bohol. Cebu city is
visible from there. She's currently living in her fourth language. Grew
up in the local version of Bisaya, went to Manila to work at 16 and
lived in Tagalog. Years later moved to Korea with a Dutch family who
spoke English at home. The mother of the children died there and the
family returned to the Netherlands, where they switched to Dutch. A
couple of years later we met, just when she was planning to return to
her home island. She's now switching languages liberally depending on
who she's talking to.
She doesn't address me but refers to me as "asawa ko."
> yes maybe, in the outskirts. Ask her two questions for me. Let me assume
> you're a
> handsome man. The question is, how does she call you when you are handsome?
Gwapo, even her niece who grew up in QC in Tagalog (from Boholiano
parents) still uses it.
> Ask her also if the word "maldita" is common in their place and what is it?.
I hear "maldito" regularly, it seems to have become our nine months old
son's middle name :-)
The meaning is "misbehave" as opposed to bastos, which seems to be
closer to "naughty."
I'm just starting to understand some of the conversations but long
before that I could distinguish Tagalog and Bisaya just by the way it
sounds. Don't ask me to explain, it just sounds different even if you
don't understand a word. Especially older people seem to have a "harder
tongue" for lack of a better word.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna M.
> Why is it complicated to pinpoint a language and a dialect?
>
>
> People in towns A and B can understand each other real well, but
people
> in town C have can't really understand town A. Town C inhabitants can
> understand B and D people. Similarly, people in Town J can easily
> understand people in I but not in town H and more less in Town G.
>
> This is what is called a "dialect continuum." You have a chain of
> closely related, but different dialects in a geographic region. At
the
> end of each chain are two mutually unintelligible dialects.
Oooh, good graphical example Chris! This way everyone can understand.
We have that similar thing happening with Polynesian languages.
>
> And I must add, between German and Dutch there's a similar contiuum...
Just as in other European languages, like Castilian & Portuguese, and
in between that, Galego, Asturiano (Bable) and there's Catalan &
Provençal & Italian dialects.
>
> But remember next time someone claims that Tagalog is the only
language
> and that the rest are just dialects.. Ask him/her.. "Dialects of
what?"
I never heard anyone say that, though I will be prepared next time. :-)
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna M.
Eduardo Cuansing <e...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu> wrote:
> The
> intonation is also different from Tagalog, Cebuano, and Kinaray-a.
It's
> more sing-song like than the others.
sing-song? To me Ilocano is like that. Or they complete every
sentence with an upward intonation or something like that.
> Right now I regret that I didn't study my native language's history.
Do they give a history for one's native language? For example in your
part of the Phils, they give a history of that particular language? Or
do they focus on Tagalog?
The One-Liner
100...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu>,
Eduardo Cuansing <e...@kaluza.physics.purdue.edu> wrote:
There are just 2 points that I
> find perplexing (because they are contradictory to what I thought I
knew -
> but I could be wrong).
>
> First point is that you consider Ilonggo a dialect.
Other than Tagalog, officially designated as national language, I
consider the rest of tongues in the Philippines as dialect.
Aren't Ilonggos the
> people who reside in Western Visayas? Doesn't the word "Ilonggo"
refer to
> the people and not to the dialect?
Nowadays the use of the word "Ilonggo" (or Bikolano for that
matter) interchances but meaning can be interpreted rightly depending
on the sentence construction. Example: Ilonggo ayhan ina siya? Here the
speaker is asking whether the guy is from Iloilo area. Also: Kahibalo
ka mag-Ilonggo? Here the speaker is asking whether the other guy knows
how to speak Ilonggo.
Hence, the word Ilonggo here was used interchangeably to
mean "dialect" and "origin of the individual". Same is true for Ilokano
or Bikolano etc.
I grew up in Bacolod and consider my
> native language as Hiligaynon.
As I mentioned somewhere in this thread, the real Hiligaynon is
actually a passive dialect if not dead. Ilonggos and Negrenses may not
accept it, but it is true.
My grandmother is from Antique and speaks
> Karay-a (which is very close to Hiligaynon). But we still do consider
> ourselves Ilonggo (still a Filipino, of course). ;)
Karay-a is widespread. Basically the whole of Antique speaks Karay-
a, all the way up north to Culasi, Pandan and Libertad. Southern and
the northwestern towns of Iloilo also speaks of Kinaray-a (allegedly)
but not all the vocabulary used are the same as that from Antique.
These folks may have difficulties understanding Antiquenos 100%.
> My second question is that isn't Hiligaynon a language rather than a
> Tagalog dialect? I could consider Karay-a as a Hiligaynon dialect
(and
> vice versa) but I don't think I could consider either as a Tagalog
> dialect. But again, I may be wrong.
I have this explained above. I only consider the officially
designated tongue, Tagaqlog, as Language. The rest (Cebuano, Ilokano,
Bikolano, Pangalatok, Ibanag, etc.) as dialect.
By the way how do you differentiate these words from each other:
language, dialect, vernacular, lingo, jargon, cant and argot?
> Additional info: People in Negros Occidental (western part of Negros)
> predominantly speak Hiligaynon while those in Negros Oriental (eastern
> part - closer to Cebu) speak Bisaya.
>
> > Ilonggos who haven't been in Katagalogan provinces are so poor in
> > Tagalog.
>
> It might be because the Tagalog intonation is so different from
> Hiligaynon. Plus, the sentence constructions are different. The
> Hiligaynon intonation is usually something that Tagalog speakers
laugh at.
I am not talking of intonation. I am talking of their working
knowledge or basic understanding of the tongue - vocabulary, usage etc.
Listen to taal na Tagalog (those from Bulacan, Malolos, Calumpit,
Paombong etc) when they speak, sounds funny to me, too.
> > Also, an Iloilo guy who's first time in Aklan may feel Aklan dialect
> > as Greek to them - though both provinces are located on the same
> > island of Panay. (Sorry guys, this is just my observation.)
>
> I still can't comprehend Karay-a perfectly. This is also the same
with my
> Bisaya comprehension.
Aklanon dialect is not nor contaminated with Kinaray-a . It's
unique to Aklan itself. It's a wonder, that Malay (town that covers
Boracay) and Buruanga though they are too close to Libertad and Pandan
(of Antique) still don't speak Kinaray-a.
Eduardo Cuansing
> Why is it complicated to pinpoint a language and a dialect?
>
> Below are fictitious towns on some fictitious island in the Phils.
> Town "A" and Town "J" have speakers who speak totally different
> languages, but related to each other. The towns are along a river:
>
> A - B - C - D - E - F - G - H - I - J
>
> People in towns A and B can understand each other real well, but
> people in town C have can't really understand town A. Town C
> inhabitants can understand B and D people. Similarly, people in Town
> J can easily understand people in I but not in town H and more less in
> Town G.
Almost the same thing I had in mind except that I was thinking in 2
dimensions. A little more complex but still the same "relations" as
you've described. And the relations might actually be dynamic, i.e.,
evolving in time. Neighboring dialects might eventually combine into one
language and others might separate. Very much like how a magnet is formed
when temperature is decreased (but this is a different story).
> This is what is called a "dialect continuum." You have a chain of
> closely related, but different dialects in a geographic region. At
> the end of each chain are two mutually unintelligible dialects.
> Enough to call them languages. But what about the others in the
> chain? Do we call those languages too or just dialects? Maybe in
> relation to Tagalog, dialect F can be a language.
I gather when something is called a dialect, a reference language must be
defined. In that case, Hiligaynon is not a dialect of Tagalog and vice
versa.
I don't know if what we're doing is just watering down terms but IMO it's
always good to use the proper meanings of words.
> Did you ever hear of the website titled "Nagatuon ako sang Ilonggo?"
> There's a link to it on Tim's Bisaya site.
Yup, I did. And I had actually placed a link to that website in my
homepage sometime ago (although my homepage is not done yet). I forgot
about Tim's Bisaya site. I'll check it out...
> Well I got the summarization from Tagalog/Bikol linguist Jason Lobel.
> He says he got it from linguistic literature that's available about
> that area. I'll ask if he can produce the names of the books (he
> recently went from UCSD to Naga to teach, so I hope he has time).
Thanks, Chris.
Ingat,
Ed
--
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~cuansing
Eduardo Cuansing
> sing-song? To me Ilocano is like that. Or they complete every
> sentence with an upward intonation or something like that.
Yes, Ilocano is also heavily intonated (is this the right word?). I don't
know if one could compare (which has heavier) intonations between
languages. However, I think between Ilocano, Hiligaynon and Tagalog,
Tagalog as spoken in QC (where I've also lived for several years) is flat.
Although that doesn't mean it's a lot less interesting.
I like to listen to Tagalog spoken by people in Bulacan, Batangas, Quezon,
etc. While listening, I tend to imagine how Francisco Balagtas might have
given his debates. Sounds cute (especially when the speaker is a
Bulakena). ;)
> Do they give a history for one's native language? For example in your
> part of the Phils, they give a history of that particular language?
> Or do they focus on Tagalog?
Ironically, during my high school days (which was 2 years ago - just
kidding), we studied really deep Tagalog but never Hiligaynon. The
Tagalog was so deep (parang balagtasan na nga) that I don't think I could
remember any of it anymore. Nor did I learn how to speak Tagalog from it.
The way I learned Tagalog was by necessity when I moved to QC during
college. It was also the same way I learned Italian... by necessity.
Ed
--
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~cuansing
Eduardo Cuansing
> Other than Tagalog, officially designated as national language, I
> consider the rest of tongues in the Philippines as dialect.
You might want to check out what Chris wrote in the other thread.
Essentially, he pointed out the difference between "language" and
"dialect".
> Nowadays the use of the word "Ilonggo" (or Bikolano for that
> matter) interchances but meaning can be interpreted rightly depending
> on the sentence construction. Example: Ilonggo ayhan ina siya? Here
> the speaker is asking whether the guy is from Iloilo area. Also:
> Kahibalo ka mag-Ilonggo? Here the speaker is asking whether the other
> guy knows how to speak Ilonggo.
Yes, indeed, I understand what you're saying. If a person asks me the
same question, I'd also answer the same way you described. But that is
essentially because we Filipinos are inherently polite. I think we all
know the meaning of these words, we just don't want to correct the person
asking it. Actually, what I've learned in other cultures (like for
example American), is that NOT correcting other people's misconceptions is
NOT polite.
> Hence, the word Ilonggo here was used interchangeably to mean
> "dialect" and "origin of the individual". Same is true for Ilokano or
> Bikolano etc.
I see what you mean although IMO it is best to always use the accurate
meaning of the word just to minimize misunderstandings. In some cases,
the exact meaning might be deduced from the context, but in others, it
might be vague.
> By the way how do you differentiate these words from each other:
> language, dialect, vernacular, lingo, jargon, cant and argot?
Again, Chris differentiated "language" from "dialect" in another thread.
As for the other words, I have no idea. Most probably they're just there
to fill up the thesaurus. :) Just kidding...
> Listen to taal na Tagalog (those from Bulacan, Malolos, Calumpit,
> Paombong etc) when they speak, sounds funny to me, too.
I do like to listen to Tagalog spoken that way. It has a sense of
elegance when spoken.
> Aklanon dialect is not nor contaminated with Kinaray-a . It's
> unique to Aklan itself. It's a wonder, that Malay (town that covers
> Boracay) and Buruanga though they are too close to Libertad and Pandan
> (of Antique) still don't speak Kinaray-a.
Thanks for all these interesting details about Panay. Although I was born
in Iloilo I was not able to travel through Panay extensively (moved to
Negros at an early age). Are you by any chance from Panay?
Regards,
Ed
--
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~cuansing
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Peter Manders wrote:
>
> > Ask her also if the word "maldita" is common in their place and what is it?.
>
> I hear "maldito" regularly, it seems to have become our nine months old
> son's middle name :-)
> The meaning is "misbehave" as opposed to bastos, which seems to be
> closer to "naughty."
*L* Sorry Peter, but that was MY middle name! My grandmother who is
from Cebu always called me maldito or she would always say "gahi ulo
na"....not sure if I spelled it correctly. I guess it's really common
huh? It was just a few years ago I heard that word and never gave a
thought as to its origin from Spanish. Oh yeah, "pangulo" was another
name my grandmother called me. She wasn't lying though. :-)
>
> I'm just starting to understand some of the conversations but long
> before that I could distinguish Tagalog and Bisaya just by the way it
> sounds. Don't ask me to explain, it just sounds different even if you
> don't understand a word. Especially older people seem to have a "harder
> tongue" for lack of a better word.
Oh yeah, I don't speak either but I know the difference between Tagalog,
Cebuano and of course Ilocano.
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Peter Manders wrote:
> "She's from a little island connected to the west of Bohol.
West of Bohol is Cebu.
> Cebu city is
> visible from there.
Could be Siquijor? But this is to the south of Bohol.
>
> She's currently living in her fourth language. Grew
> up in the local version of Bisaya, went to Manila to work at 16 and
> lived in Tagalog.
So she's using the Tagalog meaning of asawa for husband, I can surmise.
>
>
> She doesn't address me but refers to me as "asawa ko."
>
>
>
> Gwapo, even her niece who grew up in QC in Tagalog (from Boholiano
> parents) still uses it.
That's right. Gwapo is a term commonly used in the Visayan speaking provincesand
we could have borrowed it from the Spanish language. It is even
used commonly now in Manila, in the newer generations, to distinguish it
from "maganda" ( beautiful -which refers to the feminine gender). Several years
back,
you rarely hear it in the capital and the word maganda refers both to men
and women unless you will specifically say "magandang lalaki" or "magandang
babae".
Cebuano is a bit more precise in this regard since you have to explicitly say
"gwapo" (handsome) or
"gwapa" as case maybe for a beautiful lady -just like bana for husband and asawa
for wife.
With the marvel of television some words were borrowed and now
frequently exchanged among the younger generations such as the word gwapo.
But I haven't heard gwapa yet to be widely spread.
In Cebu, we can't allow to be called as "wife" from our wives and also
calling wife a "husband" from us, husbands, the reason we don't use
the Tagalog meaning of asawa to refer both. Things tends to become very hilarious
if you use that in Cebu or any other Cebuano speaking visayan provinces.
>
>
>
>
> I hear "maldito" regularly, it seems to have become our nine months old
> son's middle name :-)
> The meaning is "misbehave" as opposed to bastos, which seems to be
> closer to "naughty."
Misbehave could also fit in the picture but in the Visayan meaning of theword
"bastos", it depends on the situation. For example, you are talking
in front of other people and one guy interrupts you, you may brand him as
bastos -typical meaning I have experienced in Manila. In Cebu, however,
you will find that the word bastos would be closest to being obscene, foul
mouthed, but the connotation is usually sexual in nature.
I would still maintain that maldito is appropriate for naughty.
>
>
> I'm just starting to understand some of the conversations but long
> before that I could distinguish Tagalog and Bisaya just by the way it
> sounds.
Tim's website http://www.bisaya.com is cool and woud be moreinteresting in the
coming months.
> Don't ask me to explain, it just sounds different even if you
> don't understand a word. Especially older people seem to have a "harder
> tongue" for lack of a better word.
Take your time Pete.
Ferdinand
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> *L* Sorry Peter, but that was MY middle name! My grandmother who is
> from Cebu always called me maldito or she would always say "gahi ulo
> na"....not sure if I spelled it correctly. I guess it's really common
This word is used frequently by both sides of my family, but only
refering to the girls - maldita. When I first heard it (in reference
to a 2nd cousin), I thought it was a play on our last name (which as you
may know, shares certain letters)... And I'm thinking "Huh??
She's cursed?? how?? and why are you all smiling???".. hehe.. now my
sister is 15 months old and that's seems to be her middle name.. grin.
> huh? It was just a few years ago I heard that word and never gave a
> thought as to its origin from Spanish. Oh yeah, "pangulo" was another
> name my grandmother called me. She wasn't lying though. :-)
Pangulo? as in president? May have a different meaning in Cebuano heh.
--Chris
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Chris S. wrote:
> This word is used frequently by both sides of my family, but only
> refering to the girls - maldita.
You can just imagine why Imelda Marcos is sometimes called Meldita.Yeah,
it's a pun but a mixture of mischievousness, deceit, and sometimes
smartness. It depends on the particular situation.
> > huh? It was just a few years ago I heard that word and never gave a
> > thought as to its origin from Spanish. Oh yeah, "pangulo" was another
> > name my grandmother called me. She wasn't lying though. :-)
>
> Pangulo? as in president? May have a different meaning in Cebuano heh.
>
He could mean as "pang gulo"?
Ferdinand
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
The One-Liner wrote:
>
>
> Other than Tagalog, officially designated as national language,
Huh! who said so?I could be wrong but the Philippine Constitution mentions
"Filipino"
language as the official language.
Note the character "F".
Not Tagalog or sometimes called
Pilipino. I believe the "F" there is a conglomeration of different
dialects/
regional languages plus Tagalog as it matures over time.
Anyone with authority on this may comment?
Ferdinand
Chris S.
The One-Liner <oneli...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Other than Tagalog, officially designated as national language, I
> consider the rest of tongues in the Philippines as dialect.
Dialects of...? ;) Swedish? ;)
'Ano ang pangalan mo' (Tagalog) and 'Ania ti naganmo'(Ilocano) do not
look like dialects to me.
'Nagkakan' kami (Naga Bicol) 'Nagkaon kami' (Legaspi Bicol).. now those
are dialects. :)
Such a shame the government projects the distincts languages of the
Philippines as dialects. Mga bobo nga sila talaga! ;)
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Chris S." wrote:
>
> Such a shame the government projects the distincts languages of the
> Philippines as dialects. Mga bobo nga sila talaga! ;)
>
> -
You are so right. The fact that the Philippines & I think China too
refer to their languages as "dialects" is misleading. But then again,
can you imagine Spain calling their languages dialects? There has
already been the argument of Galician being a dialect of "Spanish" of
all things but the more accepted term would be to say it is a dialect of
Portuguese, although it's actually Portuguese that's a dialect of
Galician. Or as I've read, you could say that the Romance languages ARE
dialects.....dialects of Latin. :-)
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Ferdinand V. Mendoza" wrote:
>
> >
> > Pangulo? as in president? May have a different meaning in Cebuano heh.
> >
>
> He could mean as "pang gulo"?
>
Wait, I thought it was the same in Tagalog? I looked up in Tim's site
"pangulo" but it said chief, so I guess that would be equivalent to
president. We would pronounce it "pangalo" but I was told it's actually
pangUlo...or is it pang ulo? In any case, it means "rascal" or
mischievious. So what is the word in Cebuano?
The One-Liner
"Ferdinand V. Mendoza" <budm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The One-Liner wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Other than Tagalog, officially designated as national language,
>
mentions
> "Filipino"
> language as the official language.
> Note the character "F".
> Not Tagalog or sometimes called
> Pilipino. I believe the "F" there is a conglomeration of different
> dialects/
> regional languages plus Tagalog as it matures over time.
> Anyone with authority on this may comment?
>
> Ferdinand
Here's what your present Constitution says:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ARTICLE XIV
EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, ARTS,
CULTURE AND SPORTS
LANGUAGE
Section 6. The national language of the Philippines is Filipino. As it
evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of
existing Philippine and other languages.
Subject to provisions of law and as the Congress may deem appropriate,
the Government shall take steps to initiate and sustain the use of
Filipino as a medium of official communication and as language of
instruction in the educational system.
Section 7. For purposes of communication and instruction, the official
languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided
by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the
regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.
Section 8. This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and
English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic,
and Spanish.
Section 9. The Congress shall establish a national language commission
composed of representatives of various regions and disciplines which
shall undertake, coordinate, and promote researches for the
development, propagation, and preservation of Filipino and other
languages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, it didn't specifically says Tagalog is the National Language. The
document didn't even define what the heck is the Filipino language is!
But since Tagalog is the most widely used and understood tongue all
over the country, reason why I consider Tagalog as the "Filipino"
language. If you call "Waray" as the National Language, I have no qualm
with that ... Also if you consider regional tongues as languages,
including Chabacano, that's alright with me too.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> You are so right. The fact that the Philippines & I think China too
> refer to their languages as "dialects" is misleading. But then again,
And Italians too.... I've studied Sicilian "dialect" briefly, and it's
so vastly different from the standard Tuscan dialect.
> Portuguese, although it's actually Portuguese that's a dialect of
> Galician. Or as I've read, you could say that the Romance languages
Someone mentioned in sci.lang a while back that Portuguese and Galician
were just one language called Portuguese-Galician that just branched off
into two languages.
> dialects.....dialects of Latin. :-)
Oi, my head hurts.
--Chris
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
>
>
> My hometown is to the southwest part of Cebu island andis called Moalboal. If you care
> to check you
> can try a search on it in http://www.google.com .
Google.com seems to be good when searching for these things. I also did
a search on my
grandma's home town of Argao. I found one link to a genealogy section
on the Fajardo
family.....posted by me of course. :-)
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
>
>
> Google.com seems to be good when searching for these things. I also did a search on my
> grandma's home town of Argao. I found one link to a genealogy section on the Fajardo
> family.....posted by me of course. :-)
Google has a powerful search algorithm developed by two young scientists and they
applied this technology on a powerful clustering technology called "beauwolf" developed
by NASA. I reckon they are running it on 4000 or more PC based servers running a Redhat
distro of Linux. Yeah, that's right my dear- Linux.
Also, take a look on the page, they have a clean interface without those bullshit
advertisements
you mostly find on popular commercial search engine sites.
But what I like most is the speed and accuracy.
Ferdinand
Timothy Joseph Harvey
intonations of Ilonggo (I didn't NOT find it "flat"). Later, I took a
course in Chinese (Mandaran), and it struck me. Iloilo was a trading center
with China long before the Spanish arrived. Perhaps Ilonggo got it's
intonations from that contact.
Tim
Eduardo Cuansing wrote in message ...
Timothy Joseph Harvey
when his wife, Marites, testified, there were few warm up questions to
determine if she understood English. Yes replied that she learned it in
school. She was then asked what language they spoke back home (in Cebu), and
she replied "Bisaya".
Someone else pointed out that it's a catch all term for languages of the
region, sometimes even including Cebuano.
Tim
Ferdinand V. Mendoza wrote in message <39406CEE...@hotmail.com>...
Timothy Joseph Harvey
week stay (I leave this coming Tuesday, the 20th); otherwise we could have
hooked up.
My plan for this trip is to. . . sock myself away in our new house (wife and
daughter went ahead with friends to get it ready) and concentrate on Bisaya
projects that have built up. I have to lay over in Cebu for a wedding so
I'll visit to SCU Cebuano Center for a day or two of research while I'm
there. For one thing, it's time I worked on the vocabulary.
Once at home, I'll hide away, coming out only under cover of darkness in the
wee hours before dawn to push out in our bangka and do a little fishing.
I'm sure my internet habit will compell me to make the 15 kilometer bus ride
into town to the local internet cafe, a stop at the college library and a
guest appearance at the market where I'm addicted to the halo-halo at a
little shop there that is the best ever. Maybe I should photograph their
halo-halo in the making and add little captions with instructions and
ingredients.
That's the plan anyway, what I'll do on my summer vacation. I like reading
about others visits so I'll post mine when I get back.
Tim
Peter Manders wrote in message <3942AAB0...@manders.demon.nul>...
<snip>
>> Tim's website http://www.bisaya.com is cool and woud be moreinteresting
in the
>> coming months.
>
>I agree, but I think it will take a bit longer, unless he's got internet
>access in Cebu. I remember he planned a long trip next month or so.
>We're going in August ourselves and will surely visit Cebu.
Timothy Joseph Harvey
longer but I got a ride with a couple of Aussies that had sailed up from
Australia.
Tim
Ferdinand V. Mendoza wrote in message <39431DEE...@hotmail.com>...
>
>
>Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
>
>> If you're from Cebu, from what part? Cebu City?
>
>My hometown is to the southwest part of Cebu island andis called Moalboal.
If you care
>to check you
>can try a search on it in http://www.google.com .
>I'm living now in the metropolitan city of Cebu though
>my old folks are still in my hometown.
>Twenty five years has never been bad for me living
>in the city. I tried Manila once but I found it to be
>much easier to live in Cebu -convinient shall I say.
>
>Ferdinand
Timothy Joseph Harvey
recommended!
On the otherhand, Northern Light is a disappointment. They claimed to have
found the holy grail for web indexing but I found a number of serious
deficencies. . . such as, they ignore URLs. . . so a porno page with hidden
"Microsoft" text repeated 10,000 times rates higher than microsoft.com.
AltaVista used to be "Google" a few years back but they just didn't keep up
with themselves (if that makes any sense).
Tim
Ferdinand V. Mendoza wrote in message <3945B7C0...@hotmail.com>...
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Timothy Joseph Harvey wrote:
> I visited your place - it's pretty well known to divers. I intended to stay
> longer but I got a ride with a couple of Aussies that had sailed up from
> Australia.
>
> Tim
>
You mean they're there for some kind of joy riding on the open seas? That must
be cool indeed. And you dive too Tim? When I was young, I used to think of
going diving someday but the film jaws would always haunts me when I go
closer to the blues. Hadlokan kaayo ku'g kantil Tim.
Anyway, I hope you had fun there.
Ferdinand
Voltes V
Timothy Joseph Harvey wrote:
>
> Absolutely, they've become my first choice! Google.com is highly
> recommended!
www.alltheweb.com is actually much better and more accurate. And
the speed, man, it is so fast!
Let's volt in!
VV
--
For correspondence, send your email to:
volt...@netzero.net
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
vanish wrote:
>
> > I heard the same descriptions. they sound like birds. *L* In
> > fact, most people imitate Ilocanos in that fashion.
>
> I have yet to hear all these languages that sound like birds...
> My tita Len and Tanso think Ibanag sounds like that... Alex
> Fabros Jr thinks the same of Gaddang (closely related to
> Ibanag)... People think the same of Pangalatok (Pangasinan),
> Libon Bicol, and others...... I just gotta listen for myself..
>
> I keep on thinking they have some kind of phonemic tone system
> like the Chinese languages.. grin
I just told my co-worker that they actually do speak faster in my
opinion than they do in Cebuano or Tagalog. If you listen to how we
imitate how Ilocanos speak (yes, lots of people in HI have done this
just as you might have heard people imitating Chinese) you might say
that it's more .... I want to say "monotone", but I can't describe it.
Damn, too bad they don't have Filipino Fiesta like they did back when I
was a kid! *L*
Peter Manders
>
> Have a good trip Peter. Too bad but I return the 20th of July - only a 4
> week stay (I leave this coming Tuesday, the 20th); otherwise we could have
> hooked up.
>
Have a good one yourself. I'm sure we'll meet someday, most likely in
Cebu or thereabouts. Maybe on our next trip.
I'll try to write down some experiences too. I'm trying to get internet
at my inlaw's house but they haven't gotten a phone line yet. If
everything works out I'll be able to post from there but I doubt I will
feel like it once I'm in the local pace.
--
Peter Manders.
"I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it."
Please remove the 'u' to reply.
Ferdinand V. Mendoza
Ferdinand
Totoong Kuya
"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote in
message news:3942412D...@my-deja.com...
>
>
> "Chris S." wrote:
> >
> > Such a shame the government projects the distincts languages of the
> > Philippines as dialects. Mga bobo nga sila talaga! ;)
> >
> > -
>
> You are so right. The fact that the Philippines & I think China too
> refer to their languages as "dialects" is misleading.
It's all political bola. It wasn't too long ago that I found out their
actual scheme of things. Here's what I think is what's going on:
1. Total independence = less focus on Americanization, less dependence
on English and Spanish for communication.
2. Philippines has dozens of languages, 6 or 7 major ones.
3. Regionalist attitude may prevent people in many cases from wanting to
speak another language (unless absolutely necessary) other than their
own.
4. Government wants people to communicate with each other and understand
what's being said. Ideal solution, one language. Less paper used for
official documents, and less $$$ for other services requiring
translators and/or interpreters. The trees love this. :-)
5. Government could pick a language, however, nationalist attitude from
#1 is strong enough where they would like to stop using English
eventually. On the other hand, picking one of the Philippine languages
over another will cause protests, due to #3.
6. Government comes up with ultimate solution to the problem: create a
language.
7. Or, actually, take one language, and make some changes, and market it
as if it were a totally different language. Declare this as the
national language.
8. Then, to minimize opposition, say that this language is in the
national interest, that's for uniting the people, and saying that all
the *natural* Philippine languages are *dialects* of the man-made,
"national" language.
Did the scholars, linguists, and other academic folks ever consider what
the people want to speak? I would oppose any measure that would "tell"
the people what language to speak. Even declaring an official language
at the national level is wrong. The U.S. doesn't have a national
official language (although some states have declared English as the
official language). But hey, the Philippines already declared official
languages, and it seems like it's futile to try to do more than what's
already happened.
If they want to do right, they should let the people decide what
language they'll speak. There's always an opportunity to move from one
region to the next. If in 30 years Tagalog and English are the only
languages spoken, fine. If it happened to be Ilocano, fine. If we get
new *real* dialects, fine. But languages are supposed to evolve over
time, naturally. . . not conjured up in the confines of some classroom.
How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
--
Totoong Kuya - the people's poster.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"There are three ways to solve any problem: the
right way, the wrong way, and the Filipino way."
shout outs: h2ja...@bolafree.prodigy.net
[lose "bolafree" for serious replies]
Totoong Kuya
"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote in
message news:39430CBC...@my-deja.com...
>
>
> "Ferdinand V. Mendoza" wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have Ilocano friends and I love to hear them speak their own
> > language.They're like birds singing. In fact, I'm trying to learn
some of
> > them.
>
>
> I heard the same descriptions. they sound like birds. *L* In fact,
> most people imitate Ilocanos in that fashion.
I was wondering why a friend of mine, a Tagalista, said "ku-ku!" when I
told her I was thinking about learning Ilocano. :-) A, this explains
everything.
Totoong Kuya
"The One-Liner" <oneli...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8hu90b$9bs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Okay, it didn't specifically says Tagalog is the National Language.
The
> document didn't even define what the heck is the Filipino language is!
> But since Tagalog is the most widely used and understood tongue all
> over the country, reason why I consider Tagalog as the "Filipino"
> language. If you call "Waray" as the National Language, I have no
qualm
> with that ... Also if you consider regional tongues as languages,
> including Chabacano, that's alright with me too.
I'd never consider Tagalog and Pilipino to be one and the same. As far
as I'm concerned, they're merely using Tagalog as the *basis* for a
national language. (And note how real Tagalog speakers are all over the
country, pretty much.) Tagalog will always be Tagalog, and that other
language. . . well, let them do whatever they please.
And before anyone starts with the dialect issue again, think about this
for one second - all multilingual folks stay silent: if you think
Ilocano is a dialect of some national language, given the fact that
Tagalog is the basis of such national language, then do you think you
Tagalog speakers can understand Ilocano from day one? Even if you've
never heard it before? How about vice-versa?
th...@my-deja.com
"Totoong Kuya" <kuy...@brink.of.graduation> wrote:
> How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
See the following site for information on how Esperanto is used today:
http://www.esperanto.net
Thomas L. Rochestro
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Totoong Kuya wrote:
>
> 5. Government could pick a language, however, nationalist attitude from
> #1 is strong enough where they would like to stop using English
> eventually. On the other hand, picking one of the Philippine languages
> over another will cause protests, due to #3.
Well they could pick English being it is universal and forget about less
"Americanization". The English language originated in England. :-)
> Did the scholars, linguists, and other academic folks ever consider what
> the people want to speak? I would oppose any measure that would "tell"
> the people what language to speak. Even declaring an official language
> at the national level is wrong. The U.S. doesn't have a national
> official language (although some states have declared English as the
> official language). But hey, the Philippines already declared official
> languages, and it seems like it's futile to try to do more than what's
> already happened.
Yes, it was those "academic" folks who chose Tagalog being that it was
more wide spread, had more words that seemed more stable (I'm not
describing it w/ the right adjectives...sorry) and had less dialects,
unlike Visayan.
You mean the U.S. does not have an official language, not a national
language. WE do have a national language. And yes, certain states &
jurisdiction has made English an official language. I think in
California, in Miami and Hawai`i is where English has been declared
official.
>
> If they want to do right, they should let the people decide what
> language they'll speak. There's always an opportunity to move from one
> region to the next. If in 30 years Tagalog and English are the only
> languages spoken, fine. If it happened to be Ilocano, fine. If we get
> new *real* dialects, fine. But languages are supposed to evolve over
> time, naturally. . . not conjured up in the confines of some classroom.
> How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
*L* I can't believe some people actually still use Esperanto. True,
language does evolve over time and is constantly changing. Of course I
really can't comment about this "Pilipino" b/c till today I still don't
understand what that really is even though I heard about it. I can't
imagine how "made up" it really is and how much people use it versus
standard Tagalog. Or is it that people from the other regions speak
Pilipino as oppose to Tagalog? SO what exactly do they teach you in
school, Tagalog or Pilipino?
th...@my-deja.com
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> *L* I can't believe some people actually still use Esperanto.
Well believe it baby, because it's hap'nin'! :-)
What's funny to *me* in your sentence is the word "still." To me,
Esperanto is something new and exciting which I have taken up. Not
something that I "still do."
Timothy Joseph Harvey
but it isn't.
Filipino is largely formalized Tagalog, and it is aggressively promoted
throught the school system by the National government at the exclusion of
study and education of regional languages. . . even if local communities are
interested and willing to teach their languages to the children of their
community. An unfortunate side effect of this is that children from
Tagalog-speaking communities have an inherent advantage over children from
communities where other languages are spoken.
Perhaps a greater force on the shaping of language is the media and film
industry. . . which is centrally controlled in Manila and chooses to use
"media Filipino" (modern, urban Tagalog plus English).
The "benefit" you give for the assault on regional and local languages is
bogus since it is not a question of 175 languages competing to the sole
language of the Philippines (if you set aside possible Tagalog ambitions).
Most Filipinos speak and understand several languages, and they do so within
expanding contextual circles of home/community, town and region, country and
international context. The "efficiencies" you suggest (saving paper) are
false because government, business and the national media operate in the
country/international context where English and Filipino are the common
languages. Case in point, the National government does NOT issue
legislation and executive orders in all 175 languages. . . because there is
no need to do so.
More languages may go out of use because of changing economics and the
influence of media and education, and "new cognate" may emerge. If you
understand that culture is wrapped up in its language, then you may rejoice
and wish to hurry this process along, or morn and even resist the loss
(since it can mean loss of local autonomy) of regional and local variations
that give meaning to families and color to the nation.
I'm an observer to this, and not an impartial one. . . as I live in a
country where history made this choice earlier, and life here is dealing
with the consequences, for better or worse. A great Filipino writer, B.
Santos, brought out the loss and isolation off our mono-culture in "The man
who thought he looked like Robert Taylor." If the aim is to reach the wealth
of the Western world, you just have to look to Europe to appreciate that the
key is NOT in having a single language and culture. . . as Filipino language
promoters like to suggest.
Tim
Totoong Kuya wrote in message
<8ihn4b$20a8$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote in
>message news:3942412D...@my-deja.com...
>>
>>
>> "Chris S." wrote:
>> >
>> > Such a shame the government projects the distincts languages of the
>> > Philippines as dialects. Mga bobo nga sila talaga! ;)
>> >
>> > -
>>
>> You are so right. The fact that the Philippines & I think China too
>> refer to their languages as "dialects" is misleading.
>
>It's all political bola. It wasn't too long ago that I found out their
>actual scheme of things. Here's what I think is what's going on:
>
>1. Total independence = less focus on Americanization, less dependence
>on English and Spanish for communication.
>
>2. Philippines has dozens of languages, 6 or 7 major ones.
>
>3. Regionalist attitude may prevent people in many cases from wanting to
>speak another language (unless absolutely necessary) other than their
>own.
>
>4. Government wants people to communicate with each other and understand
>what's being said. Ideal solution, one language. Less paper used for
>official documents, and less $$$ for other services requiring
>translators and/or interpreters. The trees love this. :-)
>
>5. Government could pick a language, however, nationalist attitude from
>#1 is strong enough where they would like to stop using English
>eventually. On the other hand, picking one of the Philippine languages
>over another will cause protests, due to #3.
>
>6. Government comes up with ultimate solution to the problem: create a
>language.
>
>7. Or, actually, take one language, and make some changes, and market it
>as if it were a totally different language. Declare this as the
>national language.
>
>8. Then, to minimize opposition, say that this language is in the
>national interest, that's for uniting the people, and saying that all
>the *natural* Philippine languages are *dialects* of the man-made,
>"national" language.
>
>Did the scholars, linguists, and other academic folks ever consider what
>the people want to speak? I would oppose any measure that would "tell"
>the people what language to speak. Even declaring an official language
>at the national level is wrong. The U.S. doesn't have a national
>official language (although some states have declared English as the
>official language). But hey, the Philippines already declared official
>languages, and it seems like it's futile to try to do more than what's
>already happened.
>
>If they want to do right, they should let the people decide what
>language they'll speak. There's always an opportunity to move from one
>region to the next. If in 30 years Tagalog and English are the only
>languages spoken, fine. If it happened to be Ilocano, fine. If we get
>new *real* dialects, fine. But languages are supposed to evolve over
>time, naturally. . . not conjured up in the confines of some classroom.
>How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
>
Timothy Joseph Harvey
search" tests.
I'll use it for technical work I'm involved in, and I'll get a better feel
for it over time.
Thanks for mentioning it.
Tim
Voltes V wrote in message <394720C3...@netzero.net>...
vanish
> 1. Total independence = less focus on Americanization, less
> dependence on English and Spanish for communication.
I am beginning to see the benefits of using a native language...
If try to bargain with the outside world in a second language,
even if you're good, you're probably going to be at a
disadvantage than say, having your own interpreter ...
But I don't think people should scrap English altogether...
English does have its advantages.. especially with the citizens
themselves.
>2. Philippines has dozens of languages, 6 or 7 major ones.
Or 8. Tagalog, Cebuano, Ilocano, Bicol, Hiligaynon, Kapampangan,
Waray-Waray, and Pangasinan. Tausug is a lingua franca in parts
of Mindanao.. but it doesn't have a lot of speakers... maybe half
million.
> 3. Regionalist attitude may prevent people in many cases from
> wanting to speak another language (unless absolutely necessary)
> other than their own.
I say that a neutral language, English, should become *a*
official language of the Philippines.. with each language become
official in its own province ... But I dunno... How to satisfy
all and not offend? Probably impossible.
> 6. Government comes up with ultimate solution to the problem:
> create a language.
But do they have the resources? But seriously.. people will say
"ohh it's too Tagalog".. or "it sounds like Ilocano.." or... "It
will cause all languages to extinct.."
>official language (although some states have declared English as
And Spanish.. in New Mexico.. also Hawaiian in Ohio.. er..
Hawai`i.. ;)
>How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
They say 2 million people speak it.. I used to speak Esperanto,
but mi forgesis ghin.. er.. :) I forgot it. I don't think
Esperanto would be a good choice... I'm not a big fan of
Esperanto anymore.. and don't tell me to elaborate.. I've already
gotten into some arguments with Esperantists already in the past
years. ;)
But basically ... Esperanto is as what Greek or Thailand is to
Filipinos..Just another language.. and do we really need another?
Look at the handful of Aeta languages on the verge of
extinction.
--Chris
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
vanish
>In article <394CD8FB...@my-deja.com>,
> Esperanto is something new and exciting which I have taken up.
> Not something that I "still do."
Oh come on.. Lernu "realan" lingvon.. Tagalog! Ilocano! Bicol! ;)
Why learn Esperanto when the only people you can use it with are
in conventions and meetings? ;)
Chris S.
"Totoong Kuya" <kuy...@brink.of.graduation> wrote:
> for one second - all multilingual folks stay silent: if you think
> Ilocano is a dialect of some national language, given the fact that
> Tagalog is the basis of such national language, then do you think you
> Tagalog speakers can understand Ilocano from day one? Even if you've
> never heard it before? How about vice-versa?
Two years ago when Carl Rubino's Ilocano book came out, I purchased it
thinking "ohh I know Tagalog, learning Ilocano will be a piece of cake!"
Keep in mind that I have had very little exposure (most of it
Kapampangan) to other Filipino languages
Ohhh... how wrong I was..... It is so vastly different. So I gave up on
the book.. I lost interest in the languages of the Philippines briefly.
Then I educated myself on the language family.... And saw that Ilocano
was Cordilleran while Tagalog was Central Philippine.. Oh, figures. :)
So I did other Central Philippine languages.. Cebuano... I was lost!
Same thing with Ilocano.. couldn't really get the meaning of a sentence
by covering the translation...
I thought the same of Bicol.. I was correct, sorta.. It was much easier
than Ilocano and Cebuano....But it is still different...
Point is.. how can these be dialects? :) Which is what I try to explain
to my mga kaibigang tagalog..
--Chris
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
vanish wrote:
>
> >2. Philippines has dozens of languages, 6 or 7 major ones.
>
> Or 8. Tagalog, Cebuano, Ilocano, Bicol, Hiligaynon, Kapampangan,
> Waray-Waray, and Pangasinan. Tausug is a lingua franca in parts
> of Mindanao.. but it doesn't have a lot of speakers... maybe half
> million.
Half a million? I guess in comparison to the others...it isn't a lot?
*L* That's a whole lot! Of course I am comparing it to Polynesian
languages....which number less than hundred thousands.
vanish
>Half a million? I guess in comparison to the others...it isn't
Yeah, actually it's "just" 440M.... About 1/4th of those in
Sabah, Malaysia! ... Plus 500M use it as a 2nd language.. wow..
this is a major language! I want to familiarize myself with
Tausug now.. laugh. :)
>*L* That's a whole lot! Of course I am comparing it to
>Polynesian languages....which number less than hundred
>thousands.
I usually compare mine with Catalan, Danish, and Icelandic..
major languages with "few" speakers ( < 5M).. rofl... But
geeeeze... poor Polynesians... don't they feel lonely? grin.
Bart
you would have been taught that all the languages in the Philippines are
'dialects', a derivative or a variant of a common language called Filipino.
WRONG!
A dialect is what you would call the variants of English spoken in Scotland
or Ireland or Maine or Alabama or California or New York. They are
different enough from each other that word usage, pronuciation and phrasing
favours a particular way, but it won't prevent you from understanding each
other.
What we have in the Philippines are seperate languages with a common origin.
Much like French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese have their roots in ancient
Latin. They're different enough to prevent a speaker of one from
understanding the other.
cheers,
Michael
Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ijdmh$e0m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8ihn4m$20a8$2...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> "Totoong Kuya" <kuy...@brink.of.graduation> wrote:
> > for one second - all multilingual folks stay silent: if you think
> > Ilocano is a dialect of some national language, given the fact that
> > Tagalog is the basis of such national language, then do you think you
> > Tagalog speakers can understand Ilocano from day one? Even if you've
> > never heard it before? How about vice-versa?
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
vanish wrote:
>
> >*L* That's a whole lot! Of course I am comparing it to
> >Polynesian languages....which number less than hundred
> >thousands.
>
> I usually compare mine with Catalan, Danish, and Icelandic..
> major languages with "few" speakers ( < 5M).. rofl... But
> geeeeze... poor Polynesians... don't they feel lonely? grin.
>
*L* I know...even Catalan has millions of speakers. Can you imagine?
And polynesians are spread over a very wide area. But it's
understandable given that there were a few thousands on each island.
According to what I read in the Polynesian Voyaging Society's website,
they said it was estimated that there were 800,000 natives when Capt.
Cook reached there in 1778. I thought Cook estimated 200,000 - 300,000
natives. By the time the missionaries arrived in the 1820s, the natives
dwindled down to an estimated 20,000 or so. And then by the 30s - 60s
they realized the native speakers were less than 2,000. Now it is
climbing back up to the perpetuation of the language. But I'm now
talking about language speakers versus the natives...which have become
two different things. But as far as native speakers....a good 2,000 or
so is about right for the Hawaiian language. Other Polynesian languages
are around that amount if not slightly higher given that Hawai`i is much
larger than these other islands and atolls.
Totoong Kuya
"Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy" <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote in
message news:394CD8FB...@my-deja.com...
>
>
> Totoong Kuya wrote:
>
>
> >
> > 5. Government could pick a language, however, nationalist attitude
from
> > #1 is strong enough where they would like to stop using English
> > eventually. On the other hand, picking one of the Philippine
languages
> > over another will cause protests, due to #3.
>
> Well they could pick English being it is universal and forget about
less
> "Americanization". The English language originated in England. :-)
True. . . good reasoning, but one could always say, "Well, English is a
foreign language. We never were taught *that* until we were in high
school!". The words of great-grandparents and/or grandparents.
> > Did the scholars, linguists, and other academic folks ever consider
what
> > the people want to speak? I would oppose any measure that would
"tell"
> > the people what language to speak. Even declaring an official
language
> > at the national level is wrong. The U.S. doesn't have a national
[. . . .]
> Yes, it was those "academic" folks who chose Tagalog being that it was
> more wide spread, had more words that seemed more stable (I'm not
> describing it w/ the right adjectives...sorry) and had less dialects,
> unlike Visayan.
Oops. Miscommuniation here. I was wondering if they actually asked the
people what they wanted to speak. What do you mean by "more stable"?
> *L* I can't believe some people actually still use Esperanto. True,
> language does evolve over time and is constantly changing. Of course
I
> really can't comment about this "Pilipino" b/c till today I still
don't
> understand what that really is even though I heard about it. I can't
> imagine how "made up" it really is and how much people use it versus
> standard Tagalog. Or is it that people from the other regions speak
> Pilipino as oppose to Tagalog? SO what exactly do they teach you in
> school, Tagalog or Pilipino?
Well, I have a friend who's from one of the provinces in Luzon. If I
ask her how she'd say something in Tagalog, she'd give me one version.
Then, if I present that to my ninang, she'll say that some of the words
are "deep" Tagalog. One uses actual Tagalog words, the other words from
Spanish or English - many of which aren't necessarily accepted as a part
of Tagalog yet. My impression is that my ninang actually speaks
Pilipino, and not Tagalog as I was led to believe. And she (mistakenly,
and no, I did not bring this up with her, and never will) claims that
Tagalog, Ilocano, etc. are dialects.
Briefly, again, Pilipino is designated as the national language, but
uses Tagalog as a starting point. So, whatever developments and changes
are made to Pilipino can be done whenever and however. Unfortunately
for some people, that doesn't mean that it changes the Tagalog language.
And in Philippine schools, it's Pilipino that's being taught.
Kind of reminds me of something Mihali shared with us about a year ago
(and look here, coincidence that we're talking about Tagalog vs.
Pilipino now?):
Tagalog:Pilipino::C:C++
If anything, Pilipino is a dialect of Tagalog. hihihi.
th...@my-deja.com
vanish <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Oh come on.. Lernu "realan" lingvon.. Tagalog! Ilocano! Bicol! ;)
> Why learn Esperanto when the only people you can use it with are
> in conventions and meetings? ;)
Nakakakain ako ng salamin. Hindi nasan nasasaktan. That's one of about
a dozen more or less useful things I can say (but perhaps not spell) in
Tagalog, which I learn from a coworker.
I also see the ";)" at the end of your question. I guess that means
you're just teasing me. I can take it. :-) The answer to your
rhetorical question is that I didn't learn Esperanto to use it at
conventions and meetings.
The main reason I began learning it was the Pasporta Servo:
http://home.wxs.nl/~lide/paspserv.htm
I also began learning it out of curiosity (e.g. "Is it really as easy as
people say it is?") and because I knew that most of the vocabulary I was
learning would be "intellectual capital" for learning other languages
and understanding word history in English.
I continued learning it and using it because it's the language of many
of my good friends, plus there's that inexplicable quality, namely, I
just plain enjoy it.
Thomas L. Rochestro
Timothy Joseph Harvey
look at the waves of immigration and influence over the centuries to unravel
the roots and commonality of Philippine languages. Even today, it continues
to be a moving target with new influences (media, global culture and
changing economic conditions) shaping the language landscape.
Tim
Bart wrote in message <8ijv5m$6u3$1...@mail.pl.unisys.com>...
The Guardian
Timothy Joseph Harvey wrote:
>
> Orginating from a common language? Ultimately, perhaps. However, one has to
> look at the waves of immigration and influence over the centuries to unravel
> the roots and commonality of Philippine languages. Even today, it continues
> to be a moving target with new influences (media, global culture and
> changing economic conditions) shaping the language landscape.
ultimately? i don't know why you'd put it that way. i think they all
had a common language ancestor, so to speak. . . and as people moved
from one place to another, split up, moved on again, the languages began
diverging. i looked at a web site which was mostly ilocano (some
english). some of the words were slightly familiar when looked at
closely. it seemed like some of the things you normally see written as
two, three, or more words in tagalog were packed into one in ilocano.
the sentence structure for the philippine languages, as was said
earlier, is basically the same.
i don't think immigration and colonization were the only influences.
back in the old days, there wasn't the type of communication that we
have today. today, any changes in our languages get picked up just like
that. back then, given the technology (or lack thereof) and the
isolation of some groups of people, any new development would not
necessarily be picked up by everyone.
a -> b -> c -> d -> e. . .
so let's say group a spoke the original language then. some folks leave
and settle elsewhere to get better farming land. that's group b. as
they deal with new experiences, see new things, etc., they make up new
words, phrases, etc. group a may hear about these if they're not too
far away. but suppose a new group of people leave group b because of an
unjust chief. this is group c. they'll head for the safety of the
mountains. again, new experiences, new things mean new words. their
culture also changes as a result of their past, and that can contribute
to change in their language. group a will have a harder time understand
stuff. and each succeeding group will continue to evolve the language.
at the same time, each of these groups is developing the language they
have, also! so, eventually, even group a will speak something which is
similar, but not equal to, the original language.
i borrowed chris' continuum to illustrate what i'm saying. i don't know
if we are all talking about the same thing or if there's something
specific we disagree on, but i hope this helps.
one last thing. migration, coupled with isolation, contributed just as
much to the vast languages and dialects in the philipppines as any other
factor. now, when these all these people get together one day due to
better means of transportation (and possibly communication), there's
bound to be confusion. but, if played right, the people will have some
fun. people borrowing words from languages other than their own.
languages can converge, too. it seems like swedish and finnish are
heading that way. what do you all think about some of the philippine
ones of today? which ones, given the current state of things, are more
likely to converge?
the guardian.
vanish
>In article <1b351a0e...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com>,
>Nakakakain ako ng salamin. Hindi nasan nasasaktan. That's one
Ahh... The "I can eat glass" page.. hehe...
>I also see the ";)" at the end of your question. I guess that
>means you're just teasing me. I can take it. :-) The answer
I'm glad you saw it... Other Esperantists don't.. maybe
deliberately. ;)
>rhetorical question is that I didn't learn Esperanto to use it
>at conventions and meetings.
To understand why I have feelings like this towards Esperanto..
is simply because there is no place to use it... no practice for
me.. so it went out of use... I had an opportunity to use it a
club in Seattle.. But that was too far..
And another is that people promote it with easy grammar and all..
yes the grammar is easy...but really? 16 rules? Yeahhh..... Then
there's the pronunciation...supposedly easy... yeah try getting
some people to pronounce scias or knabo.. I can pronounce them
easily, but others? Then there's the accusative.. why have case
in an "easy" language... ??
What I laugh at is they say that it takes one/two years of
Esperanto while 4 years of French and Spanish to be very
proficient. Wrong.. It took me 2 years of Spanish and 1 year of
French to be proficient. :)
>I also began learning it out of curiosity (e.g. "Is it really as
>easy as people say it is?") and because I knew that most of the
>vocabulary I was learning would be "intellectual capital" for
>learning other languages and understanding word history in
>English.
I learned it out curiosity too.. I was 13 at the time and was
taking Spanish too (i'm 20 now).. I finished the postal course
with ELNA (I have a box of Esperanto stuff lying around in the
garage)...I gave up on it at 15 and 16 to learn other
languages..I guess wanted a "natural" feel.
But I admit that learning Esperanto was beneficial... It gave me
a better perspective of English.. I always passed English class
(grammar wise, at least, don't ask me about literature)... Also
made it easier to learn other languages. And I guess attribute
all that to Spanish & Esperanto.
Well.. se oni volas paroli la lingvon esperanton, then go ahead.
:) Just don't say it's perfect... as many have told me it is..
Gxis la reskribo..
--Chris
(gahh.. mi parolas esperanton...!!! helpu min!)
th...@my-deja.com
vanish <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Ahh... The "I can eat glass" page.. hehe...
Yes, but she also told me "nasaan ng kasilias" and "hindi sa akin."
> To understand why I have feelings like this towards Esperanto..
> is simply because there is no place to use it... no practice for
> me.. so it went out of use... I had an opportunity to use it a
> club in Seattle.. But that was too far..
I can't imagine this is any different from being an American learning
Tagalog in Western NY with no immediate plans to visit the Filipines.
> yes the grammar is easy...but really? 16 rules?
There are a few Esperantists who tout the "16 rules of Esperanto
grammar" but I question where they are the majority. I do think that
the 16 rules are a good introduction to the language, though, but
certainly, there is more to Esperanto grammar than just the 16 rules.
> Then there's the pronunciation...supposedly easy... yeah try
> getting some people to pronounce scias or knabo.. I can
> pronounce them easily, but others?
Esperanto is not without its sticky points, but I think this is a minor
quibble. I've heard people pronounce "knabo" almost like "kanabo" and
"scias" like "cias" or "sias" -- but never had even a moment of
misunderstanding because of it.
> Then there's the accusative.. why have case
> in an "easy" language... ??
I happen to think that the accusative makes Esperanto easier. Pages -
books in fact - have been written on both sides of the argument, so I'm
not going to repeat that here.
> What I laugh at is they say that it takes one/two years of
> Esperanto while 4 years of French and Spanish to be very
> proficient. Wrong.. It took me 2 years of Spanish and 1
> year of French to be proficient. :)
I'm not sure I understand the smiley in *this* case. Are you saying you
weren't really "proficient"?
At any rate, all I can say is that in my experience, the 4:1
relationship seems to hold up. In 5 months, I spoke Esperanto as well
as I spoke German - a language which I'd learned for 3 years in college.
My wife made good progress in only a few months of Esperanto even though
she'd tried and failed to learn German on her own (with my help), and
Spanish in high school. I've heard similar stories many times over from
other people who have learned Esperanto.
> I learned it out curiosity too.. I was 13 at the time and was
> taking Spanish too (i'm 20 now).. I finished the postal course
> with ELNA (I have a box of Esperanto stuff lying around in the
> garage)...I gave up on it at 15 and 16 to learn other
> languages..I guess wanted a "natural" feel.
I totally don't jibe with you here. Esperanto "feels" much more natural
to me than any other language I've learned or tinkered with.
> Well.. se oni volas paroli la lingvon esperanton, then go ahead.
> :) Just don't say it's perfect... as many have told me it is..
Who? I hear many more people say that Esperantists say Esperanto is
perfect, than I hear Esperantists actually saying it.
Chris S.
th...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Yes, but she also told me "nasaan ng kasilias" and "hindi sa akin."
[Mental Image of you in the Philippines holding something questionable
while asking someone where the bathroom is, probably to dispose of it..]
hehe.
> I can't imagine this is any different from being an American learning
> Tagalog in Western NY with no immediate plans to visit the Filipines.
But with Tagalog no one said "once you speak it, you can speak to
anyone you see with a green star!" As was the case with Esperanto. To
this day, I have been searching looking for people with green stars or
"Esperanto Parolata" in their windows.
> Esperanto is not without its sticky points, but I think this is a
> minor quibble. I've heard people pronounce "knabo" almost like
> "kanabo" and "scias" like "cias" or "sias" -- but never had even a
> moment of misunderstanding because of it.
I'm not sure if it's minor. If you want your language to be reached by
a large population, then wouldn't it be _wise_ to follow a structure of
(C)V(C) rather than (V)CCC(V) (I'm generalizing here) to make it easier
on the folks who follow a simple structure? It's like the only thing
Slavic about Esperanto.
> I happen to think that the accusative makes Esperanto easier. Pages -
I agree that it makes things flexible..
> > proficient. Wrong.. It took me 2 years of Spanish and 1
> > year of French to be proficient. :)
>
> I'm not sure I understand the smiley in *this* case. Are you saying
> you weren't really "proficient"?
Oh I am! I really hope so, at least... I took an online position at a
BBS for my French skills in 1998 and I had to converse with people
(teens-20's) in unaccented, in their Joual (Montreal variant).. I have
to admit that it took a while to find out <moé> was another word for
<moi> and not someone's name.
> Who? I hear many more people say that Esperantists say Esperanto is
> perfect, than I hear Esperantists actually saying it.
Really? It was the folks at ELNA and s.c.esperanto back in 94-95... Oh!
And that little green book that ELNA passes out.. hehe.
Ah well, I guess it's hard to satisfy everyone.
See ya,
--Chris
Emmanuel Rodriguez
of the Filipinos nationwide, it is also easy to negate that based on facts.
As every Filipino knows, one could almost find a different dialect in every
region of the Philippines. And children and their parents could hear news
from the radio and visually see the ongoing trends in the countryside from
televisions. Most of the news that people are waiting to hear/see are
events/sites about Manila where the Tagalog is the main spoken and written
word used. Why does the children and parents think this way? Here is why.
Manila is where cultural, political, educational, technical, industrial, and
high paying jobs, and where haves and most good looking maybe found, that
parents and students find no objections for using Tagalog as main language
to be learned side by side with english. At least they understand that while
their children are still in Manila, or if their kids would someday become
leaders of the high offices of the land and of course would have to attend
conferences with dignitaries, then their kids would have no feeling of
inferiority for not knowing Tagalog, which most Filipinos are proud to say
they not only understand but also write and talk straight, though because of
regional upbringing would have different accent. The same feeling that
non-Americans feel when they come to USA. Converesely, like in USA, those
natives of USA find poor english speaking foreigner as poor candidates for
employment as well as poor factor towards american progress. That is the
same thinking of those living in Manila I guess. So if kids from the
provinces would come ignorant of Tagalog, it is their parents fault for
coming to Manila not preparing themselves in speaking the language of the
area. That is why, regional governments agreed to let the education
department to let Tagalog become the language to learn from elementary to
colleges in the whole country, aside from english. If they allow a foreign
language like english to be learned in all grades all over the country, why
not Tagalog. But one wiould say, why not Bisaya or Ilocano? Well there might
be a lot more Bisaya speakers but most of them come to Manila to find jobs,
go to school, or start or build up their business there. All are attracted
to Manila, not to Visayas, Mindanao or Ilocandia. Why not Ilokano as
national language? Well, Manilans, Bikols and Visayans do not want to learn
Ilocano nor stay in Ilocandia. Everyone wants to stay in Manila and the
sourrounding Tagalog speaking region. In fact, most guys and gals coming
from outside Manila would almost always want to find as lifetime partner one
that speaks pure Tagalog if possible.
mana...@my-deja.com
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <mamo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> vanish wrote:
> >
> > > I heard the same descriptions. they sound like birds. *L* In
> > > fact, most people imitate Ilocanos in that fashion.
> >
> > My tita Len and Tanso think Ibanag sounds like that... Alex
> > Fabros Jr thinks the same of Gaddang (closely related to
> > Ibanag)... People think the same of Pangalatok (Pangasinan),
> > Libon Bicol, and others...... I just gotta listen for myself..
> >
> > I keep on thinking they have some kind of phonemic tone system
> > like the Chinese languages.. grin
>
> I just told my co-worker that they actually do speak faster in my
> opinion than they do in Cebuano or Tagalog. If you listen to how we
> imitate how Ilocanos speak (yes, lots of people in HI have done this
> just as you might have heard people imitating Chinese) you might say
> that it's more .... I want to say "monotone", but I can't describe it.
> Damn, too bad they don't have Filipino Fiesta like they did back when
I
> was a kid! *L*
>
Where do you live, Kalani? There are all kinds of Filipino Fiestas here
in California.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/
Emmanuel Rodriguez
national language in the Philippines, then find out which city or region
most filipinos from all other regions go or concentrate to look for job, get
better education, spend their lifetime, find partners for life and make
their families. You will find that they are in the Metro Manila or Tagalog
region. That's the place they want to go also because Tagalog is far easier
to learn than any dialect in the Philippines. Once they in Manila, a once
provincial person easily understand Tagalog in so many ways. First of all,
he hears not only the Tagalogs speak it. But all guys from Visayas, Ilocano,
Pampanga, Bikol, etc speaks it because they want to show off to others that
they are 'a long timer' in the Tagalog region, so not to feel 'inferior'
because that's how one usually feels when he is from the province once he
comes to Manila/or other Tagalog provinces.
Other dialects like Bikol, have a lot in common with Malaysian and
Indonesian words, as well as they speak a lot of spanish words more than the
other regions, except from Chavacano's of Zamoanga and Cavite.
Ilocano is spoken in northern "Luzon" island. Pampanga is spoken in northern
central Luzon island. Tagalog is spoken in central as well as higher part of
southern Luzon island. Bikol is spoken in southern Luzon. While Bisaya is
spoken in different parts of Visayas. There are different types of Visayan
dialect: Samar has its own, Ilonggo is on islands sorrounding Iloilo and
Iloilo proper, Cebuano is spoken in Cebu. Both Ilonggo and Cebuano are
spoken in Mindanao. Though Visayan dialects are spoken largely in Visayas
and Mindanao, they don't represent the most liked area for residency in the
Philippines. Most students and families, businessmen from these places leave
the area to reside finally in central Luzon for residency, jobs, and
education. So finally, everyone ends up speaking Tagalog when they land in
Manila, except of course the foreigners..
gene...@webtv.net
landed and settled in the island of Panay.
Therefore, it would be safe to assume that the oldest dialect in the
Philippine Islands beside the aboriginal languages would be Kinaray-a,
which is spoken in Iloilo province (as soon as you leave the city
proper, which by the way speaks Hiligaynon) and in the province of
Antique.
When somebody asks me if I speak "Filipino", I always say I speak
Ilonggo.
Dirty Sick Pig
>
> When somebody asks me if I speak "Filipino", I always say I speak
> Ilonggo.
Thanks for contributing to the fragmentation of Filipinos. Would you
like to secede?
gene...@webtv.net
Any Ilonggos around?
Viktoro
vanish <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> "Totoong Kuya" <kuy...@brink.of.graduation> wrote:
>
> >How's Esperanto doing, by the way?
>
> They say 2 million people speak it.. I used to speak Esperanto,
> but mi forgesis ghin.. er.. :) I forgot it. I don't think
> Esperanto would be a good choice... I'm not a big fan of
> Esperanto anymore.. and don't tell me to elaborate.. I've already
> gotten into some arguments with Esperantists already in the past
> years. ;)
>
I think it would be cool to have Esperanto as the official language of
the Philippines. It sounds so surreal. And Esperanto is a surreal
language... Imagine radio and TV programs in Esperanto... in the
Philippines yet. Cool. Really experimental. Vivu Esperanto! ;)
--
Viktoro
http://www.geocities.com/vmedrano
pricer...@my-deja.com
Viktoro <vik...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I think it would be cool to have Esperanto as the official language of
> the Philippines. It sounds so surreal. And Esperanto is a surreal
> language...
"Surreal: having the intense irrational reality of a dream" (Webster's
Seventh New collegiate Dictionary)
Well. Perhaps.
But I'm reminded of an article I read in the United Airlines magazine
way back in 1977. It was by the anthropologist Margaret Mead, and was
entitled "Unispeak". In it she argued that Pilipino (i.e. the official
national language based on the Manila dialect of Tagalog) was a prime
candidate to be the basis of a neutral auxiliary international language.
Many of the points she made sounded amazingly like those usually put
forward by proponents of Esperanto as an IAL (simple nearly phonetic
alphabet, not the language of of a major (imperialist) power, etc.) ...
and to them she was able to add the _very_ wide distribution, from
Anchorage, Alaska to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, of people already fluent in
the language, who would be able to help with teaching it, if it were
adopted.
George (who speaks relatively fluent Esperanto but (unfortunately) very
little Tagalog... despite having a very vigorous Filipino community here
in Juneau, Alaska!)
Dirty Sick Pig
>
> DId I hurt your feelings? Sure, seccesion is not a bad idea.
> Any Ilonggos around?
Hurt my feelings? In your butt.
Any Ilongos around? Sure. Not your kind, though. All Ilongos I know
are proud Filipinos. Same with the Ilocanos, Batanguenos, etc. You
seem to think that you're a cut above the rest based on your provincial
roots. You are of course entitled to your wrong opinion, specially of
yourself. Don't drag others with you.
You want to secede? By all means, please do and never change your
mind. Just don't take even a speck of Philippine dust with you.
Tansong Isda
My Ilongo relatives will agree, and so is my Ilocano relatives!
So there!!
Forget this divisive thinking.
Chris S.
> I think it would be cool to have Esperanto as the official language of
> the Philippines. It sounds so surreal. And Esperanto is a surreal
> language... Imagine radio and TV programs in Esperanto... in the
> Philippines yet. Cool. Really experimental. Vivu Esperanto! ;)
Eh, Vik... nagloloko ka, 'no? :) Wan big dyok!
Marami nga ang mga wika roon sa Pilipinas... bakit isa pa ang kailangan
natin??
At ang mga tinig sa Esperanto mahirap para sa mga Pilipino. Nahihirapan
ngayon sa inggles... Lalong-lalo sa Esperanto.... La kvin knabo forgesis
la sciencian projxekto <sic>. Mahirap no? (Para sa 'kin di mahirap)..
Ang kelangan natin ay isang wikang pilipino... and not European.
Opinyon ko lang ito.. pero parang.... pangit din marining ang wikang
yun. Hehe... Sabi raw ng libro kong esperanto na katulad sa Italyano
ang Esperanto.... YEAH RIGHT!
--Chris
Viktoro
Chris, kailangan yata mag-eksperimento ang tao ng posibleng
alternatibo... 'di ba? Baka sakaling maka-improve ng edukasyon.
You'll never know...
> At ang mga tinig sa Esperanto mahirap para sa mga Pilipino.
> Nahihirapan ngayon sa inggles... Lalong-lalo sa Esperanto....
> La kvin knabo forgesis la sciencian projxekto <sic>. Mahirap no?
> (Para sa 'kin di mahirap)..
>
Sa akin din hindi mahirap. So that makes at least two Filipinos that
don't think Esperanto is difficult. Sa tingin ko naman, Chris, sa
katotohanan na mas mahirap ang Ingles kaysa sa Esperanto despite ng mga
salitang katulad ng 'knabo' (batang lalaki) at 'kvin' (lima). Maraming
Pilipino nga na hindi maka-manage ng mga vowels ng Ingles. And tunay
na pagsalita ng English vowels ay parang may bulak sa loob ng bunganga,
hindi katulad sa Tagalog na tiyak. Ang Esperanto naman, pareho ng
Tagalog ang mga vowels, yun lang lima. And English is not without its
difficult consonant clusters like in 'through' and 'street', 'di ba?
Yu wok tru da haus tu go tu da istrit... Bi keyrpul op yor ispeling!
> Ang kelangan natin ay isang wikang pilipino... and not European.
>
Puwede rin, pero masyado namang dependent ang Pilipino sa Ingles; 'di
ba European din yun? In any case, dapat hindi tayo ma-trap sa "Not
Invented Here Syndrome." Ang ibig kong sabihin, some foreign things
may be beneficial. Dapat piliin ang magaling sa lipunan.
> Opinyon ko lang ito.. pero parang.... pangit din marining ang wikang
> yun. Hehe... Sabi raw ng libro kong esperanto na katulad sa Italyano
> ang Esperanto.... YEAH RIGHT!
>
Beleco estas lau la audanto. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Sa
iba maganda raw ang Italyano, pero itanong mo sa Intsik, baka iba
opinion niya. Ang salitang Intsik ba maganda? Baka ang iba
nagagandahan. Pero sa akin monotonous yun. Talagang ganoon. Iba-iba
ang tao.
--
Viktoro
Chris S.
Viktoro <vik...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Chris, kailangan yata mag-eksperimento ang tao ng posibleng
> alternatibo... 'di ba? Baka sakaling maka-improve ng edukasyon.
> You'll never know...
I-aadmit ko na dahil sa Esperanto, bumuti noon bata pa ako ang aking
"persepsiyon" ng wika...But any language can do this, no?
Now huwag mong isipan na anti-esperanto ako..... Sa palagay ko, may
mas mabuting wika na puwede ng tao gamitin.
> Puwede rin, pero masyado namang dependent ang Pilipino sa Ingles; 'di
Oo pero I think na the benefits outweigh the disadvantages... Ngayon,
ano kaya ang gagamitin ang Taong Pilipino? Inggles o Esperanto? Almost
always, English. Bakit? sino'ng naggagamit ang Esperanto on a broad
scale, anyway?
> Beleco estas lau la audanto. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
Totoo nga... Pero hindi dapat nila (ELNA) sulatin iyan sa mga libro
nila...
Baka dahil sa ELNA at ang mga iba't-ibang esperantisto naiinis ako...the
way they promote Esperanto.. who knows? :)
But in the end, I think it all boils down to this... We really do not
need Esperanto.. English is there..we'll see how the Filipinos use it or
discard it.... But, I think we should really promote the minor languages
of the Philippines... They're probably going to disappear soon...
--CHris
Viktoro
Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I-aadmit ko na dahil sa Esperanto, bumuti noon bata pa ako ang aking
> "persepsiyon" ng wika...But any language can do this, no?
>
Well, I think Esperanto stands out because the grammar is clearly laid
out: nouns end in "-o", adjectives in "-a", adverbs end in "-e", etc.
The language is based on the "traditional" grammar theory and makes it
visibly marked. That way, it really is a great teaching tool. Sa
tingin ko, walang wika na katulad nito. It's by no means perfect, by
the way. But in truth, I think learning Esperanto first helps someone
who's going to learn another Indo-European language later on. So
Esperanto first, French second. Esperanto first, German second. It's
a teaching tool. English grammar is chaotic in comparison. And
English spelling wastes so much time for rote memorization.
> Now huwag mong isipan na anti-esperanto ako..... Sa palagay ko, may
> mas mabuting wika na puwede ng tao gamitin.
Anong mas mabuti? Ingles? :) Well, perhaps only because it's already
popular.
> ... the benefits outweigh the disadvantages... Ngayon,
> ano kaya ang gagamitin ang Taong Pilipino?
> Inggles o Esperanto? Almost always, English.
> Bakit? sino'ng naggagamit ang Esperanto on a broad
> scale, anyway?
>
It's like the problem of a new operating system and lacking the
software applications for it. That's Esperanto. The "operating
system" is like the language. TV programs, radio programs, books, and
newspapers are the "software applications." Sa katotohanan, ang
Tagalog at iba pang wikang Pilipino ay ganito rin ang problema. Hindi
masyadong malaki ang literatura ng Tagalog o Esperanto. Ang Ingles
malaki. So people are dependent on it. But there is sometimes
the "Snowballing Effect" na kung maraming tao ang gagamit ng wika, mas
marami rin ang literatura at programa.
> But, I think we should really promote the minor languages
> of the Philippines... They're probably going to disappear soon...
>
Oo nga, sayang din. Pero sa tingin ko ang priority is the problem of
general education. How to efficiently teach millions the sciences and
the arts. English is not the answer for the Third World. It's an
elitist language, 'di ba?
--
Viktoro
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Emmanuel Rodriguez wrote:
>
> So if kids from the
> provinces would come ignorant of Tagalog, it is their parents fault for
> coming to Manila not preparing themselves in speaking the language of the
> area. That is why, regional governments agreed to let the education
> department to let Tagalog become the language to learn from elementary to
> colleges in the whole country, aside from english. If they allow a foreign
> language like english to be learned in all grades all over the country, why
> not Tagalog. But one wiould say, why not Bisaya or Ilocano? Well there might
> be a lot more Bisaya speakers but most of them come to Manila to find jobs,
> go to school, or start or build up their business there. All are attracted
> to Manila, not to Visayas, Mindanao or Ilocandia. Why not Ilokano as
> national language? Well, Manilans, Bikols and Visayans do not want to learn
> Ilocano nor stay in Ilocandia.
No, that's not why Tagalog was chosen. *L* It was more widespread in
the beginning, no dialects unlike in the Visayas, Tagalog literature was
the reichest, more books were written in that lang. and it has always
been the language of Manila, the capital city apparntly even before the
Spaniards arrived.
Totoong Kuya
"Dirty Sick Pig" <drtys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3967958F...@hotmail.com...
That was a legitimate answer to a question. Why are you mocking recent
developments in Quebec and Mindanaw?
Tvarriola
Allow me to butt in. Please don't forget, Manuel Luis Quezon was chosen as the
"AMA NG WIKANG PILIPINO", MannyQ was a Tagalog. When I was in college,
national language was one of the big issues that we are discussing. I
remember one time my other classmates went to the National Library to research
how Pilipino became a national language. I remember Sen. Sotto (this is not
Tito Sotto the comedian, I think this was his Lolo) represented the Visayas
(Cebu) and other senators represented their individual provinces. I cannot
recollect the details since this was a long time ago. As far as I can
remember, the debate of the law makers was so intense obviously for the love of
their own language, but it ended up Pilipino (based on Tagalog ) was elected
to be the National language.
Viktoro
In article <8kdmmc$fnr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
pricer...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ... I'm reminded of an article I read in the United Airlines magazine
> way back in 1977. It was by the anthropologist Margaret Mead, and was
> entitled "Unispeak". In it she argued that Pilipino (i.e. the
> official national language based on the Manila dialect of Tagalog)
> was a prime candidate to be the basis of a neutral auxiliary
> international language. Many of the points she made sounded
> amazingly like those usually put forward by proponents of
> Esperanto as an IAL (simple nearly phonetic alphabet, not the
> language of of a major (imperialist) power, etc.) ...
> and to them she was able to add the _very_ wide distribution, from
> Anchorage, Alaska to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, of people already fluent in
> the language, who would be able to help with teaching it, if it were
> adopted.
>
Tagalog as an auxiliary international language? It certainly would be
politically neutral. I think it's possible. There are so many
Filipinos abroad as you say. In my travels, I've even seen Filipina
cashiers in Austria and Liechtenstein. Such people could be turned
into language teachers when needed.
But I think Tagalog grammar is more baroque than say other languages
like Indonesian, which I think is simpler... Also Tagalog currently
lacks certain technical vocabulary, but of course new words could be
coined if needed.
I'm a native Tagalog speaker, but my opinion is that it would be
difficult for foreigners to learn Tagalog. It's not like Esperanto in
that you could easily present 16 easy grammar rules for everyone to
follow. Tagalog is far more complicated. The "focus-based" grammar of
Tagalog would be quite alien to the rest of the world for instance...
Chris S.
Viktoro <vik...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Tagalog as an auxiliary international language? It certainly would be
> politically neutral. I think it's possible. There are so many
I think it kinda is... But is it fair to the speakers of the 160+
languages in the Philippines -- well if they mind anyway..
> follow. Tagalog is far more complicated. The "focus-based" grammar
I remember trying to explain it to an American, since had no clue how
this went in Tagalog.. So I was thinking of something similar that's
found in English... IN a way, I think a focus and trigger system is
similar to English's active/passive construction... but the latter seems
more restricted to the subject and objects.
Example:
Active Actor-Focus
I ate fish. Kumain ako ng isda
Passive Object(?)-Focus
The fish was eaten by me Kinain ko ang isda.
--Chris
Viktoro
Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I remember trying to explain it to an American, since had no clue how
> this went in Tagalog.. So I was thinking of something similar that's
> found in English... IN a way, I think a focus and trigger system is
> similar to English's active/passive construction...
> but the latter seems more restricted to the subject and objects.
>
> Example:
>
> Active Actor-Focus
> I ate fish. Kumain ako ng isda
>
> Passive Object(?)-Focus
> The fish was eaten by me Kinain ko ang isda.
>
It's kinda neat to see "ng" and "ang" articles alternate with shifting
focus...
The cat ate the fish.
Kumain ang pusa ng isda.
The fish was eaten by the cat.
Kinain ng pusa ang isda.
I once browsed a grammar book on Ilocano and was surprised to learn
that the Ilocano equivalent to Tagalog 'ang' and 'ng' was one
word: 'ti'. I wonder how that works if 'ang' and 'ng' is one and the
same. My guess is that the order of the words is fixed, not like in
Tagalog... Any Ilocanos out there?
--
Viktoro
xylene
you're at it, it is wise to join the rebels I think they are having a ball
down there. I'm tired of listening to whiners like you who instead work for
its country's unity, fragments it further for their own selfish convenience.
Aaaaarggggghhh!!!
maslar97 <masl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39837FA6...@earthlink.net...
> yes I would definitely like to secede from the Philippines. Hell, The
> norther islands, specially the Region of manila gets all the freakin
> revenues. Yeah, I would like to secede so Mindanao and visaya could
> finally make business without going through your damn bureaucratic red
> tape.
maslar97
Kensei
that area and do something about it! All you are doing is chest beating
from a very safe place. While you are at it, explain your clannish &
narrow-minded views to the families of the recent fallen soldiers who
died to keep Philippines united. Looks like you want the country to
emulate Yugoslavia's tragedy.
Kensei
that area and do something about it! All you are doing is chest beating
from a very safe place. While you are at it, explain your clannish &
narrow-minded views to the families of the recent fallen soldiers who
Philippines united. Looks like you want the country to emulate
Philippines is at its current state.
Timothy Joseph Harvey
Manila area.
Why is it that groups that seek to dominate others, always do so in the name
of "unity?"
As an accident of history, Tagalog speakers occupy the seat of national
government left behind by various colonial masters and taken up by them.
Part of the colonial heritage left by the Americans is the myth that
ruthless adherence to a single language is the key to national unity. So,
the Tagalog-speakers have graciously offered to impose theirs "for the good
of the country."
Never mind that it favors native Tagalog-speaking children in the
educational system. It is "good" to promote Tagalogs into national rule
since they have demonstrated their greater capacity to rule in numerous
ways, including acceptance of a single national language (their own!).
And never mind:
1. The example of other nationals and regions that demonstrate that common
issues, challenges and shared interests are more powerful in binding people
together than the imposition of a single language.
2. The fact that important national and international activities, important
to a nation's well-being, are NOT conducted in Tagalog or any other
Philippine language, but English, the world's defacto language.
3. That Cebuano is spoken by as many or more people than Tagalog. Which, in
a democratic society responsive to the people, would produce a very
different program than the ruthless imposition of the language of one group
on all others.
4. The commonality of Philippine languages shows Tagalog is not in any way
superior or more advanced than other languages. There is nothing inherently
"right" or "better" about Tagalog, other than it is the native language of
Manila-centric government and other institutions located there.
If you want to achieve national unity, try understanding and respecting
other groups who do not care for your callous and superior attitude and
institutionalized distain for them and their culture. The problem is less
whether or not people are Filipinos, and more about Tagalogs assuming there
are "real" and "inferior" Filipinos, with themselves and their views the
final word in what is best for the country.
Tim
"xylene" <hex...@wt.net> wrote in message news:39839...@data.wt.net...
> Well, I think you're in the wrong NG. Try alt.secede.phillipines and while
> you're at it, it is wise to join the rebels I think they are having a ball
> down there. I'm tired of listening to whiners like you who instead work
for
> its country's unity, fragments it further for their own selfish
convenience.
> Aaaaarggggghhh!!!
>
> maslar97 <masl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:39837FA6...@earthlink.net...
Kensei
idealism but the original thread refers to seceding. What did the US did
when the southern states that wanted to secede from USA because they had
different political views, cultures and do not want to dominated by the
Yankees from the north? Sounds familiar? We are referring to Unity here
not domination. Stick to the thread.
Never mind your "never minds"!!!! They are very narrow-minded and
divisive as well. English is used nationwide because the education
system is American based . You are right --- Right now English is the
defacto language for international business. Tagalog will never be, and
so is Cebuano, Ilongo nor Mandarin, Dutch, Russian, so where's the
argument there. Quit armchair quarterbacking --offer solutions. In
defense of Tagalogs, they are not accident of history, they were the
first to fight/rebel with organization {and more than likely have more
KIA the most --read your available history, again history according to
the victorious} against the Americans when they decide to stay. ;>|
Kensei
when the southern states that wanted to secede from USA -- because they