Namatay ba si Rizal na Katoliko?
Icnclst922
Did Jose P. Rizal die a Roman Catholic? Did his soul go to heaven?
Rizal was executed on December 30 a century ago, and he is considered one of
the greatest Philippine heroes.
If he is alive today, would he be critical of Cardinal Sin or the Roman
Catholic Church?
See the Philippine Daily Inquirer article:
http://www.inquirer.net/issues/dec97/dec30/news/t30rizal.htm
Serious discussion po ito.
NasaBahay
Jose Rizal did not die a Roman Catholic.
If he is alive today, I think he would still be critical of the Roman Catholic
Church.
Jose Rizal was a Mason.
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <19971229201...@ladder02.news.aol.com> icncl...@aol.com
==========
MY TURN:
Gil B. Fernandez, Ph.D., 1972 PUC-Baesa guest lecturer,
contended that there surfaced a document in the 1930s alleging
Jose P. Rizal's retraction on the eve of his execution.
He asserted a detailed analysis by legal experts determined
several inconsistencies with known Rizal hand-writing specimen;
furthermore, he claimed chemical analyses on the document's
watermark characteristics, texture and other parameters
indicated said paper on which the retraction was written
could not have been manufactured - not until AFTER the 1920s.
Interestingly, Rizal was executed by a Spanish firing squad
on December 30, 1896 in Bagumbayan (now Luneta in modern-day
Inang Bayan).
Oddly enough, maybe we FIRST have to address, conclusively,
the issue whether or not Rizal REALLY renounced his Catholic
faith due to, or as a result of, his Masonic involvement.
Speculatively, it can be imputed he "renounced" (???) his
faith - although its actual occurrence would be deemed highly
unlikely, ergo, doubtful - otherwise all these past & present
discussions would have been mooted.
As a disclaimer, Fernandez's assertions DO NOT necessarily
reflect my views dahil "the-jury-is-still-out" para sa akin.
Also commenting on the above, I believe Rizal's soul ascended
up to heaven; his physical body returned back to its earthly
dust origins.
benjamin
bl...@ix.netcom.com
bl...@earthlink.net
rcd...@I-manila.com.ph
Colton, CA 92324
USA
John J. Cristobal
On 30 Dec 1997, BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
[snipped]
> Also commenting on the above, I believe Rizal's soul ascended
> up to heaven; his physical body returned back to its earthly
No one can really be sure whether his soul took flight to heaven,
Mang Ben. No one.
John
------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <Pine.GSO.3.95.971230...@athens.sjsu.edu> "John J.
Cristobal" <udu0...@email.sjsu.edu> writes:
>
>On 30 Dec 1997, BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
>
>[snipped]
>> Also commenting on the above, I believe Rizal's soul ascended
>> up to heaven; his physical body returned back to its earthly
>
>No one can really be sure whether his soul took flight to heaven,
>Mang Ben. No one.
>
>
>John
========
MY TURN:
There SURE is a L-O-T of merit to the fact you
just posted, Manong John ...
benjamin
bl...@ix.netcom.com
bl...@earthlink.net
rcd...@i-manila.com.ph
Colton, CA 92324
USA
Anak Pawis
Magandang Gabi Po,
Manong Ben, Manong Jon, Pwedeng maka-singit ng kaunti?
Ang pagka-mason ni Rizal ay 'imaterial' sa pagka-Catoliko niya. Hindi
mo niri-renounce ang faith kapag nag-mason. Sa katunayan, hindi ka
pwedeng mag-mason kung hindi ka naniniwala sa Diyos. Bagama't noong
panahon na 'yon ay tila mahigpit na ipinagbawal ng Catolica Romana na
bawal sa CAtoliko ang mag-mason. Hanggang sa kasalukuyan, mas gusto ng
Simbahan na sumanib ang miyembro nila sa "Knight of Columbus" kesa sa
'Freemasonry'
Ang 'kuro-kuro' at 'haka-haka' na tatalikuran mo ang iyong paniniwala
sa Diyos kapag ikaw ay nag-mason ay tsismis lamang.
A P
(naglakbay mula sa hilaga patungong silangan)
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
> Also commenting on the above, I believe Rizal's soul ascended
> up to heaven; his physical body returned back to its earthly
>
Jon wrote:
> No one can really be sure whether his soul took flight to heaven,
> Mang Ben. No one.
>
The Kalogian
If I remember my "Rizal" course, which is compulsory back then,
the guy renounced his masonry, according to the Jesuit who married
them (Joe Rizal and Josephine Bracken) about two hours before he
was to be shot. If he didn't, will the Jesuit do so? I don't think
so ....
FB/
In <34A9C0...@sariling.kayod> Anak Pawis <"Anak
Paul Guerrero
On 30 Dec 1997 19:08:09 GMT, bl...@ix.netcom.com(BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ)
wrote:
>In <19971229201...@ladder02.news.aol.com> icncl...@aol.com
>(Icnclst922) writes:
>>
>>Did Jose P. Rizal die a Roman Catholic?
IMHO, he did not.
> Did his soul go to heaven?
I do not know, but he died believing that his soul would go to heaven.
In his last poem he wrote,
"Voy donde no hay esclavos, verdugos ni opresores;
Donde la fe no mata, donde el que reina es Dios."
ENGLISH TRASLATION:
I go to where there are no slaves, no hangmen, no oppressors,
Where faith does not slay, where he who reigns is God.
(translation by Austin Coates in Rizal:Filipino Nationalist and
Patriot)
>MY TURN:
>Gil B. Fernandez, Ph.D., 1972 PUC-Baesa guest lecturer,
>contended that there surfaced a document in the 1930s alleging
>Jose P. Rizal's retraction on the eve of his execution.
There is no question that a document allegedly writen by Rizal
surfaced from the Manila Archdiocean Archives in May 18, 1935. What
is being contended is whether it's real or a forgery.
>He asserted a detailed analysis by legal experts determined
>several inconsistencies with known Rizal hand-writing specimen;
>furthermore, he claimed chemical analyses on the document's
>watermark characteristics, texture and other parameters
>indicated said paper on which the retraction was written
>could not have been manufactured - not until AFTER the 1920s.
Very interesting!!!!
>Oddly enough, maybe we FIRST have to address, conclusively,
>the issue whether or not Rizal REALLY renounced his Catholic
>faith due to, or as a result of, his Masonic involvement.
>Speculatively, it can be imputed he "renounced" (???) his
>faith - although its actual occurrence would be deemed highly
>unlikely, ergo, doubtful - otherwise all these past & present
>discussions would have been mooted.
Rizal renouncement of his Catholic Faith is not solely based on his
Masonic involvement. It's based on numerous writings and actions.
For Rizal's writings on his religious beliefs, please refer to his
letters to Fr. Pablo Pastell, S.J. published in the Rizal Pastells
Correspondence by Raul J. Bonoan, S.J published by the Ateneo
University Press. The drafts of the same letters are also published
in Miscellaneous Correspondence of Dr. Jose Rizal published by the
National Historical Institute. For his actions which point to his
rejection of the Catholic church, his attacks on the Church in his
novels, his rejection of the Jesuit invitation to stay at the convent
in Dapitan when a retraction was required as a prerequisite, his
rejection of the oportunity to marry Josephine in Dapitan when a
retraction was again required as a prerequisite, his final act of
turning away from a crucifix when a Jesuit came foward and offered it
to him to be kissed moments before he was shot (I'm sure there are
many more writings and acts but I'm not really a historian so I can't
really name them all. Will the profressionals out there help me
please!!!). A lot of people have the misconception that Rizal
rejected God, but this is not accurate. What Rizal rejected is
organized religion. He however never stopped believing in God (for
proof read the letters I mentioned above)
>As a disclaimer, Fernandez's assertions DO NOT necessarily
>reflect my views dahil "the-jury-is-still-out" para sa akin.
I personally believe that Rizal did not retract, but of course that's
only my humble opinion.
Do you have a transcript of Dr. Fernandez's lecture? I am a real fan
of Rizal, and I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail me a
copy of this lecture. Thanks.
Paul
Delete SPAMBLOCK from address when replying by e-mail.
amo...@ix.netcom.com
Considering our history books he was sentenced to die by firing squad.
Did the Gen. Aguinaldo’s men really carried order or tortured Andres
Bonifacio to death? Nagtatanong lang po?
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Tansong Isda
amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Me nabasa akong dramatized version kung papa-anong namatay si Andres
Bonifacio;
After the elections of officers and Gen. Aguinaldo won the Presidency, he
made a speech to a few selected men (and women), about why Bonifacio should
die, to preserve the unity of the Katipunan. One of the men listening is
supposedly Andres Bonifacio's brother who eventually carried out the deed,
shot him in the head.
They buried him as a hero. Nothing else was mentioned.
Don't know if this is true, maybe it's just drama.
Fred Amores
I read an article about Bonifacio's horrible death in the hands of
Aguinaldo's men. It claims that Ka Andres' hands were cut-off and let
him bled to death. I don't know how reliable their source/s. There was
no written statement or testimonies to support their claim. Perhaps, it
can be considered as mere hearsay.
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <34AB23...@ix.netcom.com> Fred Amores <amo...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>Tansong Isda wrote:
>> =
>
>> amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> =
>
>> >
>I read an article about Bonifacio's horrible death in the hands of
>Aguinaldo's men. It claims that Ka Andres' hands were cut-off and let
>him bled to death. I don't know how reliable their source/s. There was
>no written statement or testimonies to support their claim. Perhaps,
it
>can be considered as mere hearsay.
>
==========
MY TURN:
I read an autobiography of Aguinaldo back in 1976 while
performing RP Government-mandated rural service in
Mindanao. Although it could be self-serving, General
Emilio Aguinaldo contended having "overheard" a conspiracy
to commit murder against his life by the Bonifacio brothers
and certain henchmen of their defeated faction. In short,
it was the culmination of the rift between the Magdiwang
and Magdalo camps in the pursuit of the Philippine Revolution
of 1896.
When given a chance to "redeem" themselves, the conspirators
showed no remorse, hence the order of execution after
a kangaroo court (???) found their culpability. Whether or
not those who served in the convened court DID Aguinaldo
and the revolution a favor OR their very own personal
vested interests rings a curiosity but that would be another
matter.
This incident HAS NOT been fully mentioned in Philippine
history books. Parang isang footnote na lang yata.
BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ
In <34A9C0...@sariling.kayod> Anak Pawis <"Anak
Pawis"@sariling.kayod> writes:
>
>Magandang Gabi Po,
>
> Manong Ben, Manong Jon, Pwedeng maka-singit ng kaunti?
>
> Ang pagka-mason ni Rizal ay 'imaterial' sa pagka-Catoliko niya.
Hindi
>mo niri-renounce ang faith kapag nag-mason. Sa katunayan, hindi ka
>pwedeng mag-mason kung hindi ka naniniwala sa Diyos. Bagama't noong
>panahon na 'yon ay tila mahigpit na ipinagbawal ng Catolica Romana na
>bawal sa CAtoliko ang mag-mason. Hanggang sa kasalukuyan, mas gusto ng
>Simbahan na sumanib ang miyembro nila sa "Knight of Columbus" kesa sa
>'Freemasonry'
>
> Ang 'kuro-kuro' at 'haka-haka' na tatalikuran mo ang iyong
paniniwala
>sa Diyos kapag ikaw ay nag-mason ay tsismis lamang.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>A P
>(naglakbay mula sa hilaga patungong silangan)
>
>
=========
MY TURN:
Maraming-maraming salamat for the enlightenment
Mang Anak Pawis. It makes great copy on this
issue ... :-)
vz...@triton.towson.edu
Fred Amores (amo...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Tansong Isda wrote:
: > amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: > > Considering our history books he was sentenced to die by firing squad
: > > Bonifacio to death? Nagtatanong lang po?
Si Andres Bonifacio at ang kanyang kapatid na si Procopio
ay nabilanggo. Inutos ni Heneral Noriel kay Maj.
L. Macapagal Lazaro) na ilabas sa bilangguan ang dalwa
at dalhin sila da Bundok. Pinatay ni
Maj. Macapagal ang dalwa (Andres at Procopio)
sa dahilang ayun ang nakalagay sa sulat na pinadala
sa kanya ni Heneral Noriel. Ang pangyayari ay
naganap noong Mayo 10 1897 sa bundok Mt Tala.
Paano si Bonifacio nakulong:
Inakusahan ni Delas Alas si Bonifacio ng mga maling
akusasyon laban sa kanya. Inakusahan sya na nag-pautos
si Bonifacio sa mga Pilipino na maghimagsik sa mga
Kastila at sumuko sa kanila. Inakusahan din sya na
nagpautos sya na sunugin ang simbahan at kumbento ng Indang
at pagi-ikil ng mga hayop (tulad ng kalabaw).
At dahil sa mga paratang na ito, inutos ni Emilio AGUILNADO
kay Col Bonzon na ARESTUHIN ang dalwang kapatid..
maligayang pasko at masaganang bagong taon.
--
to God be the glory &c.
Virgie S Zapanta "Life is like a piano what u get out
http://triton.towson.edu/~vzapa of it, depends on how u play it."
NasaBahay
Basahin ninyo ang librong "The Revolt of the Masses: The Story of Bonifacio
and the Katipunan" ni Teodoro Agoncillo. Maganda ang librong ito.
Tansong Isda
G...@smileyface.com wrote:
Meron kayang kaug-nayan ito sa meeting ni Aguinaldo sa mga Amerikano sa
Hongkong?
Sino ang nakaka-alam ng tungkol dito?
Very interesting indeed.....susunod....involved kaya ang Amr'kano rito?
Pipi
amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Considering our history books he was sentenced to die by firing squad.
> Did the Gen. Aguinaldo’s men really carried order or tortured Andres
> Bonifacio to death? Nagtatanong lang po?
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Nang sumiklab ang rebolusyon noong Agosto 26, 1896 kaagad kumilos si
Emilio. Kanyang sinimulan ang rebolusyon sa Kawit noong Agosto 31, 1896.
Naging mainit ang labanan sa Cavite, ngunit nagkaroon ng problema dahil
hindi magkaisa ang mga rebolusyonaryo. Ang pwersang Magdalo na
pinangungunahan ni Aguinaldo at pwersang Magdiwang ni Bonifacio. Upang
malutas ito nagkaroon ng tinatawag na Tejeros Kombensyon sa General Trias,
Cavite nuong Marso 22, 1897 na pinangunahan ni Bonifacio. Napagkasunduang
buwagin na ang Katipunan at itatag ang isang pamahalaang rebolusyon.
At gaya ng mga pamahalaan kailangan ng isang pangulo kaya nagkaroon ng
halalan para dito. Ang resulta, si Aguinaldo ang presidente at si Bonifacio
ang naging kalihim. Sa kabila nito tinutulan pa rin ang pagiging kalihim ni
Bonifacio ni Daniel Tirona na nagduda sa kwalipikasyon ng nauna. Kailangan
daw na isang abugado o may alam sa legal ang umako sa katungkulang ito.
Bagay na katawa-tawa sapagka't si Aguinaldo ay hindi nakatapos ng pag-aaral
nya sa San Juan de Letran ng high school bagaman nakumplento nya ang third
year. Sa galit ni Bonifacio pinawalang-bisa nya ang kombensyon bilang
Supremo ng Katipunan.
Ang hindi pagkakasundo ng dalawang pinuno ay nagresulta ng pagkakahati-hati
ng mga mandirigmang Filipino. Nang bandang huli, ang mga dating sumuporta
kay Bonifacio ay nagsitalikod at ang iba'y tumindig laban sa kanya ang ilan
dito'y si del Pilar, Noriel at de las Alas. Si Pio del Pilar ang tumestigo
laban kay Bonifacio na ang nahuli ika ay pinagpupwersa ang mga opisyales
para aniban sya. Siya at si General Mariano Noriel ang matigas na tumutol
na palitan ang sentensya kay Bonifacio-- "alang-alang sa Rebolusyon"
Ito namang si Severino de las Alas ang umakusa na binayaran daw ng mga
prayle itong si Bonifacio para itatag ang Katipunan at mangitlog sa
pakikipaglaban sa mga Kastila na hindi naman handang makipaglaban dahilan sa
kawalan ng armas, na si Bonifacio ang nag-utos na sunugin ang kumbento at
simbahan sa Indang, na pwersahan pinag-aagaw ng kanyang mga sundalo ang mga
kalabaw at iba pang hayup ng mga tao, at si Bonifacio ika at ang kanyang mga
tauhan ay nagplano na sumuko sa mga Kastila.
Sa pananaw naman ni Aguinaldo, si Bonifacio ay isang ambang dapat lupigin.
Kaya't ipinag-utos niya kay Koronel Agapito Bonzon na damputin si Bonifacio
at ang kanyang mga kapatid. Inakusahan sila ng sedisyon at treason sa
military court na pinamumunuan ni, hulaan nyo kung sino, General Noriel.
Ikunsidera natin ang mga sumusunod, una, ang bumubuo ng kunseho ay pawang
tauhan ni Aguinaldo; ikalawa, ang counsel ni Bonifaciong si Placido Martinez
ay nagsilbing taga-akusa kaysa tagapagtanggol na nagsabing kung meron pang
mas malala kaysa kamatayan ay dapat na ihatol kay Bonifacio dahil sa ikang
pagtataka nitong patayin si Aguinaldo; ikatlo, pinaniwalaan ng korte ang
pambihirang kwento ni Lt. Col. Pedro Giron na nagsabing binayaran sya ni
Bonifacio ng sampung piso para patayin si Aguinaldo kung sakaling hindi
sumunod ang nahuli kay Bonifacio. Habang nagaganap ang paglilitis, sinabi
kay Bonifacio na hindi nya pwedeng harapin para kumprontahin si Giron dahil
napatay na ika itong si Giron sa Naic, pero ng matapos mamatay si Bonifacio
nakitang kasama si Giron ng mga umusig kay Bonifacio.
Ang aktwal na paglilitis ay natapos ng isang araw, Mayo 5. Nang Mayo 6,
handa na ang hatol. Nu'ng Mayo 8, nirikumenda ni Baldomero Aguinaldo sa
pinsan nyang presidente na sang-ayunan ang desisyon sa kadahilanang
napatunayang si Bonifacio ika na gustong ipapatay ang Presidente at ibagsak
ang pamahalaan. Sa araw ding yaon, pinalitan ni Aguinaldo ng pagpapatapon
kaysa kamatayan ang sentensya subalit hinikayat sya nina General Norial at
del Pilar na payagan ang sentensyang manatili.
Nuong Mayo 10, si Major Lazaro Makapagal ang nag-aktong kalihim ng korte
militar na nagpatupad ng order ni Noriel na pagpapapatay. Si Bonifacio
kasama ng kanyang kapatid na si Procopio ay namatay sa Bundok Buntis na nasa
pagitan ng Cavite at Batangas. Binaril-- kung sa ulo, nakatalikod o hindi,
sa talaan na ng Dios ito nakasulat.
edgar tibayan
Pipi
Tansong Isda wrote:
Meron kayang kaug-nayan ito sa meeting ni Aguinaldo sa mga Amerikano sa
Hongkong?
Sino ang nakaka-alam ng tungkol dito?
Very interesting indeed.....susunod....involved kaya ang Amr'kano rito?
Hindi gaanong malinaw ang tinatakbo ng rebolusyon hanggang dakong huli ng 1897 kaya tinangka ng pamahalaan ni Aguinaldo at mga rebolusyonaryong magkaroon ng pansamantalang pagtigil ng labanan.
Nuong Agosto 1897 kinumisyon ni Gobernador Primo de Rivera si Pedro Paterno, aral-Kastila, na humanap ng mga paraan upang matigil na paglalabanan. Kaya't ipinangako ang amnestiya ang mga rebolusyonaryo. Hindi agad pumayag si Aguinaldo sa mga pangako ng Kastila, pero nu'ng Nobyembre 1897 nakipag-ayos sya sa pamosong Biak-na-Bato Pact. Nilagdaan ang kasunduan noong Nob. 18, Dis. 14 at 15, 1897. Si Paterno ang kinatawan ng rebolusyunaryo at si Fernando Primo de Rivera ang sa pamahalaang Kastila.
Ipinatapon si Aguinaldo kasama ang 25 pinuno nuong Disyembre 27, 1897 sa Hongkong, tumanggap naman ng tsekeng nagkakahalaga ng P400,000 itong si Aguinaldo bilang pagsunod sa kasunduan nila. Nang bandang huli'y hindi na nagsipagtupad ang magkabilang kampo sa iba pa nilang kasunduan.
Ang pag-alis ni Aguinaldo'y hindi nangahulugang tapos na rin ang pakikibaka ng bayan. Katunayan, maski ang utos ng agostong Presidente ng Republika ng Biak-na-Bato na ibaba ang kanilang armas o ang pananakot niyang ituturing silang mga tulisan kung susuwayin siya ay hindi gaanong bumaon sa mamamayan at kanilang mga pinuno. Ang tutuo, walang patid ang pakikidigma't pakikilaban ng mga Filipino.
Enter ang panibagong kontrabida.
Ang rebolusyong Cubano laban sa pagmamalupit ng Kastila ay nagbigay
ng oportunidad na iabante ang expansionistang pagnanasa ng mga taong nasa
stratehikong posisyon ng gubyerno nila na makahagip ng indignasyong publiko
laban sa Espanya, lalung lalu na nang ang pandigmang Amerikanong Maine
ay misteryosong sumambulat sa Havana harbor, para imaniobra ang E.U. sa
pagdedeklara ng digmaan.
Bagaman marami sa kapitalistang Kano ang primaryang interes ay protektahan ang kanilang mga milliones sa Cuba, ang expansionistang gaya ni Theodore Roosevelt, na nuo'y Undersecretary ng Navy, ay may mas malaking mga plano. Nuong Pebrero 25, 1898, sampung araw makalipas ang insidenteng Maine, kinable ni Roosevelt si Commodore George Dewey para dalhin ang kanyang fleet sa Hongkong at duo'y maghintay ng mga darating pang direktiba.
Nuong mga anim na buwan pang nakaraan ipinanukala ni Felipe Agoncillo kay Rounseville Wildman, Amerikanong konsul-general ng Hongkong, na isang alyansang Filipino-Amerikano ang buuin sa pangyayaring magkadigmaan Espanya at Estados Unidos. Siya ang representatibo Republika ng Biak-na-Bato.
Sa Singapore, kagyat na inayos ni Aguinaldo ang pusibleng lawsuit ng kanyang mga kasama na nagpupumilit kunin ang kanilang hati sa perang bigay ng Espanya. Duo'y kinontak sya ng Amerikanong opisyal nuong Abril 24, 1898. Sinigurado ni Consul E. Spencer Pratt kay Aguinaldo na hindi pagsisisihan ng huli ang pagkikipagkoopereyt sa mga Amerikano and pinaniwala syang walang pagnanasang kunin ng E.U. ang Filipinas.
Nang lumarga itong si Aguinaldo nung Abril 26 para magbalik sa Hongkong naideklara na ang digmaan at ito namang si Dewey' pumalaot nang papuntang Maynila.
Tatlong alon ang dating ng reinforcement ng mga Kano,: 2500 katao sa pamumuno ni Gen. Thomas Anderson nuong Hunyo 30, 3500 sa ilalim ni Gen. Francis V. Greene nung Hulyo 17, at 4800 sa ilalim naman ni Gen. Arthur MacArthur nu'ng Hulyo 31.
Mula pa nang Mayo 31 nasukol ng pwersang Filipino ang Maynila. Makatlung beses idinemanda ni Aguinaldong magsisuko ang tropang Kastila, inaalok pa nga ng magandang pangako. Pero di nila pinansin itong si Mr. President. Imbis ang nangyari, nagkasundo ang dalawang kolonyalistang pwersa na magpalabas ng kunya-kunyariang giyera, pero sikreto syempre, na susundang kagyat ng pagsuko ng Maynila sa tropang E.U., at dapat eh alang tropang Filipinong papasuking sa isinukong ciudad. Ang mga mandirigmang Filipino'y lumaban sa tabi ng mga Amerikano sa labang ito na hindi nalalamang naipagbili na pala sila.
Nang nagkapirmahan na ng Treaty of Paris kung saan ipinasa ng Espanya ang Filipinas sa Estados Unidos nuong Disyembre 10, 1898 kakapurit na lamang at mangilan-ngilan na lang ang kontrolado ng Espanya. Nagwagi ang sambayanang Filipinong palayain ang Inang Bayan. Sa sarili nilang kakayahan, walang tulong ng banyagang kapangyarihan, tinapos nila ang karumal-dumal na paghahari ng Espanya sa bayan. Totohanang panalong bayan ito sapagka't bayan ang nagbigay ng lakas-tao at nagkontribyut sa pagpilas sa mga labanan, bukod pa rito ang mga kawal ng Rebolusyon ay nakasumpong ng patuloy at umaapaw na suporta mula sa mamamayan kahit saan. Pero saglit lang ang pagdiriwang ng bayan dahil ang mga mandarayang Amerikano ang sumunod na naghari.
edgar tibayan
Tansong Isda
Pipi wrote:
> amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
<pinutol upang umig-si>
magaling ang pananalita ng pipi...maraming salamat.... :-)
edgar tibayan
Hi... sori at nagamit ko ang address ni Pipi, computer nya kasi iyun eh. Nagbabasa basa na ako dito pero dito nyo ako puwedeng sulatan etib...@stones.com. Tenks. O nga pala, alang spamman. :)
Hapi Nyu Yir.
e.t.
Emanuel Bimbo Crisologo
Fred Amores wrote:
>
> Tansong Isda wrote:
> >
> > amo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> > > Considering our history books he was sentenced to die by firing squad.
> > > Did the Gen. Aguinaldo’s men really carried order or tortured Andres
> > > Bonifacio to death? Nagtatanong lang po?
> > >
> > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> > > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> >
> > Bonifacio;
> > After the elections of officers and Gen. Aguinaldo won the Presidency, he
> > made a speech to a few selected men (and women), about why Bonifacio should
> > die, to preserve the unity of the Katipunan. One of the men listening is
> > supposedly Andres Bonifacio's brother who eventually carried out the deed,
> > shot him in the head.
> > They buried him as a hero. Nothing else was mentioned.
> > Don't know if this is true, maybe it's just drama.
>
> Aguinaldo's men. It claims that Ka Andres' hands were cut-off and let
> him bled to death. I don't know how reliable their source/s. There was
> can be considered as mere hearsay.
He was killed by means of firing squad (together with his brother?). If
I'm correct....
--
Emanuel Bimbo Crisologo
Manila, Philippines
muf...@skyinet.net
"Xcuse me, I'm new here"
John J. Cristobal
On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Pipi wrote:
[kaltas]
> Nuong Mayo 10, si Major Lazaro Makapagal ang nag-aktong kalihim ng korte
> militar na nagpatupad ng order ni Noriel na pagpapapatay. Si Bonifacio
> kasama ng kanyang kapatid na si Procopio ay namatay sa Bundok Buntis na nasa
> pagitan ng Cavite at Batangas. Binaril-- kung sa ulo, nakatalikod o hindi,
> sa talaan na ng Dios ito nakasulat.
Mainam na pagsasaliksik, Mang Pipi. Nguni't ang ipinagtataka ko lamang
ay kung bakit napakarami ng di-umanong kumasapakat laban kay Bonifacio.
Tunay nga na may hidwaan sila ni Aguinaldo, at mababa lang ang kanyang
pinag-aralan. Subali't wala ba siyang mga kakampi? Nasaan ang mga
umalalay sa kanya noon? Nagtataka lang ho.
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
edgar tibayan
John J. Cristobal wrote:
Mainam na pagsasaliksik, Mang Pipi. Nguni't ang ipinagtataka ko lamang
ay kung bakit napakarami ng di-umanong kumasapakat laban kay Bonifacio.
Tunay nga na may hidwaan sila ni Aguinaldo, at mababa lang ang kanyang
pinag-aralan. Subali't wala ba siyang mga kakampi? Nasaan ang mga
umalalay sa kanya noon? Nagtataka lang ho.John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
Ganito ho ang naging dahilan...
Hindi kinilala ni Bonifacio ang binuong gobyerno nila Aguinaldo, at sa dokumentong isinulat sa Tejeros ( Acta de Tejeros ) at isa pang nilagdaan sa Naic, Cavite, ang Kasuduang Militar ng Naic muling pinanindigan ni Bonifacio ang kanyang pagiging lider ng Rebolusyon. Idiniin niya ang pandaraya at pamimilit ang eleksyong Tejeros at inakusahan ng kataksilan ang tropang Aguinaldo sa pamamagitan ng "paghahasik ng pagkakahiwalay-hiwalay at pakikipagsabwatan sa mga Kastila." Hinirang si General Pio del Pilar na commander-in-chief ng rebolusyonaryong pwersa sa Kasunduang Militar ng Naic. Si del Pilar ang tumestigong pinwersa lamang sila ni Bonifaciong umanib sa kanya.
Narito ang detalye...
Ang pagkakadakip kay Bonifacio ay isinagawa ng madaling-araw nuong ika-28 ng Abril, 1897, Mierkoles. Samantalang nag-aayos ang mga kawal na bantay sa kuta ng Limbon, biglang sumalakay ang mga tauhan ni Col. Bonzon. Sa pagkalito ng mga bantay at pagkabigla napatay kaagad si Ciriaco Bonifacio na matandang kapatid ng Supremo, binihag ang mga kawal bantay at pinagsasamsam ang mga baril nila.
Nang marinig ni Bonifacio ang putukan, madali syang nanaog sa tinutuluyang bahay sa loob ng kuta para magsiyasat, kasama ang kapatid na si Procopio, ang mga Katipunerong sina Francisco Careon, Alejandro Santiago at iba pa. Babahagya pa lang silang napalapit kay Col. Bonzon at isang nagngangalang insik Pawa, ay madaling sinagupa at binaril ni Bonzon. Sa pamamagitan ng kanyang rebolber, ang Supremo na nuon di'y tinaman at lubhang nasugatan sa kaliwang bisig, dinaluhong naman siya ni insik Pawa. Sinaksak ng patalim sa gawing kanan ng liig si Bonifacio kaya't ito'y nahilo sa salumpit ng sariling dugo. Nang muli sanang dadaluhungin ng insik Ama ng Himagsikan, madaling inalay ni G. Alejandro Santiago ang sarili saka sinabing, "Ako na ang patayin mo, huwag lamang iyan."
Matapos busalan ang bibig ni Bonifacio at manghina sa matinding sugat, inilagay sya sa duyan. Si Procopio nama'y iginapos at ang iba'y binihag saka dinala sa Indang. Pagkagaling dito'y nagpatuloy sila ng Naic, saka inilagay sa madilim na silid ang magkapatid. Ang dalawang bilanggo'y inalisan ng karapatang madalaw at pakikipag-usap sa kaninuman, at sa tatlong araw na pagkakakulong mamakalawa lamang pinakain.
Mangyari pa, ang korteng humatol kay Bonifacio ay pawang mga Cavitenyo
at mga kasama ni Aguinaldo. Ang pinaka-abugado nila Bonifacio na
si Placido Martinez ay nag-aktong taga-usig kaysa taga-pagtanggol.
Ika nga'y luto na.
edgar tibayan
P.S. Ginamit ko ang kumpyuter ni Pipi kaya naaddress sa kanya.
Poncio Pilato
John J. Cristobal wrote:
>
> On 30 Dec 1997, BENJAMIN L. GUADIZ wrote:
>
> [snipped]
> > up to heaven; his physical body returned back to its earthly
>
> Mang Ben. No one.
>
Bravo! Bravo! 'Way to go John, the way to go.
Poncio
Bgdomingo
Si Heneral Emilio Aguinaldo ang may kamay sa pag-paslang kay Supremo Andres
Bonifacio. Dahil hangad ni Aguinaldo ang mamuno sa kilusan na Katipunan.
================================================================
Bong D
"The Deep South"
John J. Cristobal
[kinaltas upang payak]
> Mangyari pa, ang korteng humatol kay Bonifacio ay pawang mga Cavitenyo at mga
> kasama ni Aguinaldo. Ang pinaka-abugado nila Bonifacio na si Placido Martinez ay
> nag-aktong taga-usig kaysa taga-pagtanggol. Ika nga'y luto na.
>
>
> edgar tibayan
Maraming salamat sa iyong walang-kupas na pagsalaysay sa madugong
kabanata ng ating kasaysayan, Ka Edgar. Tila marami ang kasapakat ni
Hen. Aguinaldo at tuluyang nabawian ng buhay si Bonifacio dahil sa
pagkakaisa ng mga tauhan ng Heneral laban sa kanya. Masasabi natin na
wala na rin siyang nagawa at nakamit niya ang pagkakanulo ng mga dating
niyang kasama.
Sa aking pagkakaalam ay si Aguinaldo ay may pinag-aralan at nakatapos
sa dalubhasaan. Batid mo rin ba kung siya ay sa ibayong dagat nag-aral?
Hindi ko tiyak kung natutuhan niya ang mga kaalaman ng pagiging heneral
sa banyagang bansa o sa lupang tinbuan.
Salamat uli.
John
-----------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
John J. Cristobal
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Poncio Pilato wrote:
> John J. Cristobal wrote:
> >
> > No one can really be sure whether his soul took flight to heaven,
> > Mang Ben. No one.
> >
> > John
>
> Bravo! Bravo! 'Way to go John, the way to go.
>
> Poncio
Sarcasm aside, let me clarify that what I meant was no mortal knows
exactly whether Rizal's soul is in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Perhaps you can employ less juvenile tactics in argumentation rather
than resorting to mindless, caustic responses like the one above.
Give it a try.
John
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
AC21209
Hello everyone,
All of this information on Bonifacio and Aguinaldo is terrific.
But, my tagalog reading skills are severely lacking.
Is there any possibility of switching the conversation to English to accomodate
the interests of those of us who are not as adept at the language? Also, it
might help others to understand and learn about the important parts of our
heritage and history.
Thanks for the consideration.
.
LEGAL NOTICE: Anyone sending unsolicited e-mail will be charged a US$500
proofreading fee. Consider this official notification. Failure to comply will
result in legal action.
303jf...@anydomain.net,
abuse@localhost
rch...@fcc.gov
rhu...@fcc.gov
edgar tibayan
John J. Cristobal wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, edgar tibayan wrote:
[kinaltas upang payak]
> Mangyari pa, ang korteng humatol kay Bonifacio ay pawang mga Cavitenyo at mga
> kasama ni Aguinaldo. Ang pinaka-abugado nila Bonifacio na si Placido Martinez ay
> nag-aktong taga-usig kaysa taga-pagtanggol. Ika nga'y luto na.
>
>
> edgar tibayan
Maraming salamat sa iyong walang-kupas na pagsalaysay sa madugong
kabanata ng ating kasaysayan, Ka Edgar. Tila marami ang kasapakat ni
Hen. Aguinaldo at tuluyang nabawian ng buhay si Bonifacio dahil sa
pagkakaisa ng mga tauhan ng Heneral laban sa kanya. Masasabi natin na
wala na rin siyang nagawa at nakamit niya ang pagkakanulo ng mga dating
niyang kasama.Sa aking pagkakaalam ay si Aguinaldo ay may pinag-aralan at nakatapos
sa dalubhasaan. Batid mo rin ba kung siya ay sa ibayong dagat nag-aral?
Hindi ko tiyak kung natutuhan niya ang mga kaalaman ng pagiging heneral
sa banyagang bansa o sa lupang tinbuan.Salamat uli.
John
-----------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
Si Emilio ay ikapito sa walong naging supling nina Carlos Aguinaldo at Trinidad Famy. May kabuhayan sina Aguinaldo at malawak na lupain. Masasabing ito ang naging dahilan ng pagtigil niya sa pag-aaral sa San Juan de Letran, bukod pa sa namatay ang kanyang ama. Natapos lamang niya ang tatlong taong pag-aaral ng segunda ensenanza ( high school ).
Sa larangan ng pulitika aktibo ang kanilang pamilya. Naging gobernadorcillo ng Kawit ang kanyang ama at ang kanyang kuyang si Crispulo. Masasabing may kapangyarihang pulitiko ang kanilang pamilya at maaaring siyang naging dahilan kung bakit sa edad na 17 siya'y naging cabeza de barangay bagamat ang kailangang edad ay 21. Nuong Enero 1,1895 nahalal siya bilang capitan municipal ng Kawit. Ang katumbas ng posisyong ito ay ang pagiging gobernadorcillo, sa madaling sabi'y siya ang pumalit sa kanyang kapatid na Crispulo.
Si Aguinaldo katulad nina Rizal, Bonifacio, Marcelo H. del Pilar at iba pa ay pawang mga mason.
Ang lahat ng ito'y natala sa panulat ni Lydia Gonzales-Garcia sa librong "Mga Pangulo ng Pilipinas", Anvil Publishing, Inc. ISBN 971-27-0095-X.
Dahil rito, masasabing ang pagiging heneral ni Aguinaldo ay hindi dahil sa nakapag-aral siya ng mataas kundi ito'y karangalang ipinutong ng mga taong nakapaligid sa kanya bilang isang lider-militar sa rebolusyong nagaganap sa panahon nila.
Ang sumusunod na sulat ay hango sa libro ni Renato Constantino na isinulat ni Bonifacio kay Jacinto tungkol sa pagkakahalal ni Aguinaldo duon sa Tejeros Convention. Ang libro'y pinamagatang, "The Philippines: A Past Revisited." pahina 185. Isinalin ko ito kaya't hindi eksakto pagpasensyahan nyo na lamang ho, narito...
...bago sinimulan ang eleksyon, natuklasan kong may pailalim silang plano mula duon sa ilang taga-Imus na tahimik at patagong ikinakalat ang salitang hindi mainam na sila'y mapailalim sa pamumuno ng taga ibang bayan. Dahil dito'y nahalal na presidente si Kapitan Miong. [Ang maaaring paliwanag kung bakit tinawag na kapitan si Aguinaldo ay sa kadahilanang siya'y kilala sa pangalang Kapitan Miong sa kanyang pagiging Kapitan bilang capitan municipal.]
Maaring ang iba nating kasama dine ay makapagdaragdag pa tungkol sa
background ni Aguinaldo. Sa mga nabasa ko'y hindi siya nabanggit
na nag-aral sa ibang bansa o nagpakadalubhasa o nag-aral para maging heneral.
Sa abot lamang na aking makakaya,
edgar tibayan
edgar tibayan
I certainly understand your concern, in fact it is right that historical facts as what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all. However, let me explain why I will keep on writing in Filipino. You see, a lot of folks both in Filipinas and in abroad doesn't think that our language is worth all the trouble. Many see it as a cumbersome thing to write. I won't blame them because writing in Filipino is truly longer than the writing in English. What more, the commerce is also conducted in English as can be seen from the warranties and contracts people sign. Many, because of this, were also taken advantage of. Even inside the court, but I'm not so sure now, they use English. Now a poor person who doesn't understand English could be thrown to jail not knowing what was happening. Mine is that of a simple pride that I could still write in Filipino. And to prove that we can do it, if we only take time to study and practice. That our language has its unique place in the world of language, that our language given a break in both legal and technical world can evolve as every language did, only if the language be let flourish among the people.
From time to time I will correspond in English. On the otherhand,
Alex S. Fabros is doing a great job in his research of Aguinaldo and maybe
later Bonifacio. His is an English version of what I was writing
about. Of course, I wish that the rest would also help explain in
English if asked in English. Actually, many have corresponded well
in English on this subject.
edgar tibayan
AC21209
Edgar,
Read your reply and I support your intentions wholeheartedly. It is sad to see
the lack of language skills that many of us Filipino Americans possess in
today's society.
However, if possible, could someone help along with the translations since my
skills in reading comprehension are weak?
thanks
John J. Cristobal
[kinaltas]
> Sa larangan ng pulitika aktibo ang kanilang pamilya. Naging goberna
> dorcillo ng Kawit ang kanyang ama at ang kanyang kuyang si Crispulo.
> Masasabing may kapangyarihang pulitiko ang kanilang pamilya at maaaring
> siyang naging dahilan kung bakit sa edad na 17 siya'y naging cabeza de
> barangay bagamat ang kailangang edad ay 21. Nuong Enero 1,1895 nahalal
> siya bilang capitan municipal ng Kawit. Ang katumbas ng posisyong ito
> ay ang pagiging gobernadorcillo, sa madaling sabi'y siya ang pumalit sa
> kanyang kapatid na Crispulo.
Sa palagay ko ay wasto ang inyong paliwanag na si Aguinaldo ay hindi
nakatapos ng dalubhasaan. Marahil mas totoo na ang pagkaheneral niya
ay hinirang at bansag lamang sa kanya ng mga kasama niya. Naaalala ko
ang letratong kuha sa kanya na nakatindig, nakabihis-opisyal, at may
tangan na espada sa kamay. Nalilinlang tuloy ako na nakatapos siya
ng pag-aaral sa ibayong-dagat dahil dito.
Kung aking mapuna, parang malawak ang inyong kaalaman sa paksang
ito, Ka Edgar. Kayo ba ay nasa inangbayan at malimit sa silid-aklatan
na nananaliksik? O kayo ba ay nandito sa Estados Unidos din at maytaglay
ng lipon na mga aklat na makasaysayan? Nang mabanggit niyo ang may-akdang
si G. Zaide at bigla na lamang bumalik sa aking isipan ang libro ko ng
mababang paaralan. Kilala siya na manunulat sa larangang ito. Hindi ko
nga lang alam kung may matatagpuan na sipi ng mga aklat niya dito sa
Amerika.
Salamat uli. Unti-unti kong nababalik-aralan ang Araling Panlipunan ng
aking kabataan tuwing nababasa ko ang mga poste ninyo. Hanggang sa
uulitin.
Gumagalang,
Tansong Isda
nahihirapan ako sa mga vowels, kung gumagamit ka ng computer terminal, siguro sanayan
lang iyon, nahihirapan ako sa mga As and Es and Is na madalas e kinaka-ilangang
magamit. Nababali ang pinky ko!
relaks....maraming salamat sa iyo.
Mike Schneider
In article <34AF49DA...@stones.com>, edgar tibayan
<etib...@stones.com> wrote:
> I certainly understand your concern, in fact it is right that historical
facts as
> what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all. However, let
me explain
> why I will keep on writing in Filipino.
Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
> --------------86EBBFD52CBB28B53C8C2335
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML>
> <FONT COLOR="#000000"></FONT>
>
> <P>AC21209 wrote:
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Hello everyone,
>
> <P>All of this information on Bonifacio and Aguinaldo is terrific.
>
> <P>But, my tagalog reading skills are severely lacking.
>
> <P>Is there any possibility of switching the conversation to English to
> accomodate
> <BR>the interests of those of us who are not as adept at the language?
> Also, it
> <BR>might help others to understand and learn about the important parts
> of our
> <BR>heritage and history.
>
> <P>Thanks for the consideration.
>
> <P>.
> <BR>LEGAL NOTICE: Anyone sending unsolicited e-mail will be charged a US$500
> <BR>proofreading fee. Consider this official notification. Failure
> to comply will
> <BR>result in legal action.
>
> <P>303jf...@anydomain.net,
> <BR>abuse@localhost
> <BR>rch...@fcc.gov
> <BR>rhu...@fcc.gov</BLOCKQUOTE>
> I certainly understand your concern, in fact it is right that historical
> facts as what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all.
> However, let me explain why I will keep on writing in Filipino. You
> see, a lot of folks both in Filipinas and in abroad doesn't think that
> our language is worth all the trouble. Many see it as a cumbersome
> thing to write. I won't blame them because writing in Filipino is
> truly longer than the writing in English. What more, the commerce
> is also conducted in English as can be seen from the warranties and contracts
> people sign. Many, because of this, were also taken advantage of.
> Even inside the court, but I'm not so sure now, they use English.
> Now a poor person who doesn't understand English could be thrown to jail
> not knowing what was happening. Mine is that of a simple pride that
> I could still write in Filipino. And to prove that we can do it,
> if we only take time to study and practice. That our language has
> its unique place in the world of language, that our language given a break
> in both legal and technical world can evolve as every language did, only
> if the language be let flourish among the people.
>
> <P>From time to time I will correspond in English. On the otherhand,
> Alex S. Fabros is doing a great job in his research of Aguinaldo and maybe
> later Bonifacio. His is an English version of what I was writing
> about. Of course, I wish that the rest would also help explain in
> English if asked in English. Actually, many have corresponded well
> in English on this subject.
> <BR>
>
> <P>edgar tibayan</HTML>
>
> --------------86EBBFD52CBB28B53C8C2335--
------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- Norm McDonald, "Weekend Update", Saturday Night Live
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Poncio Pilato
John J. Cristobal wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Poncio Pilato wrote:
>
> > John J. Cristobal wrote:
> > >
> > > No one can really be sure whether his soul took flight to heaven,
> > > Mang Ben. No one.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> > Bravo! Bravo! 'Way to go John, the way to go.
> >
> > Poncio
>
> Sarcasm aside, let me clarify that what I meant was no mortal knows
> exactly whether Rizal's soul is in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
>
> Perhaps you can employ less juvenile tactics in argumentation rather
> than resorting to mindless, caustic responses like the one above.
> Give it a try.
>
> John
Look who's talking juvenile here.
Poncio ;-)
Tansong Isda
Mike Schneider wrote:
> Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
>
> Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
> their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
> language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
> misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
>
>
> "The President's a murderer! Er... You didn't know that?"
> -- Norm McDonald, "Weekend Update", Saturday Night Live
>
> Welcome to Rancho Runnamukka: http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/
> A Military Action: http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
Don't get upset, most people in Luzon understands Ilocano or one of the Visayan
dialects as well anyway. This is not a left-over from Marcos' days.
I got relatives speaking Waray, Ilogaynon and Ilocano. But everyone understands
Tagalog.
edgar tibayan
John J. Cristobal wrote:
> < pinutol >
>
> Kung aking mapuna, parang malawak ang inyong kaalaman sa paksang
> ito, Ka Edgar. Kayo ba ay nasa inangbayan at malimit sa silid-aklatan
> na nananaliksik? O kayo ba ay nandito sa Estados Unidos din at maytaglay
> ng lipon na mga aklat na makasaysayan? Nang mabanggit niyo ang may-akdang
> si G. Zaide at bigla na lamang bumalik sa aking isipan ang libro ko ng
> mababang paaralan. Kilala siya na manunulat sa larangang ito. Hindi ko
> nga lang alam kung may matatagpuan na sipi ng mga aklat niya dito sa
> Amerika.
>
> Salamat uli. Unti-unti kong nababalik-aralan ang Araling Panlipunan ng
> aking kabataan tuwing nababasa ko ang mga poste ninyo. Hanggang sa
> uulitin.
>
> Gumagalang,
> John
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John J. Cristobal jjcri...@hotmail.com
Mang John,
Meron ho ako dineng mga librong galing sa Pilipinas at kung minsan naman pu'y
nanghihiram ako sa aking kapatid. Ang mga sipi pong ito'y binibili namin sa
tuwing kami ay nauuwi sa Bayang Sinilangan.
Iyon pong aking paggamit kay G. Zaide ay upang matunton ng iba at mabasa nila
ng buo ang pagkakasabi, sapagka't iyo'y qouted po lamang din.
Kung kayo man po'y nalinlang sa aking pagkakasulat ay hindi ko po sinasadya.
Ipagpatawad nyo po.
Lubos na gumagalang,
edgar tibayan
edgar tibayan
> I certainly understand your concern, in fact it is right that historical
facts as
> what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all. However, let
me explain
> why I will keep on writing in Filipino.Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
My use of the word "Filipino" in writing has historical basis.
When the Commonwealth government has just been established, and the first thing that the Quezon administration did was to make into a reality the provision about the National Language in the constitution. This plan was expressed on October 27, 1936, stating a need to establish an Institute of National Laguage which objective was "to do a study on the native languages in the Philippines, with a view of developing and establishing one common language according to the most commonly used language."
On November 13, 1936 the Institue of National Language was established known in Congress as the Commonwealth Law 184.
Quezon elected its member on January 12, 1937, according to Commonwealth
Law 184, section 1.
Its elected members are:
Jaime de Veyra ( Bisaya-Samar-Leyte ), President
Santiago A. Fonacier ( Ilocano ), member
Filemon Sotto ( Bisaya-Cebu ), member
Casimiro Perfecto ( Bicol ), member
Felix Salas Rodriguez ( Bisaya-Panay ), member
Hadji Butu ( Mindanao ), member
Cecilio Lopez ( Tagalog ), secretary
Its actual composition were from different parts of the Philippines, no one can say that it was dominated by Tagalogs. Only Sotto refused the position. On November 9, the Institute come up with a resolution that Tagalog is the language basis.
On April 1940, an Executive Order No. 263 was issued ordering the printing of grammar and dictionary on the National Language and to teach the same starting June 19, 1940 to all public and private school all over the country.
I asked one of my co-worker who were studying in the 50's and told me that they called their subject Pilipino. Now, this is not only to avoid friction with other provicial language, if that is your preference, but this is national in nature, and therefore deserves to be called as such. Later, however, many had resented this and thought that the use "P" is too Tagalog. And so some, like me have accepted to call it Filipino.
I find "Filipino" as a term to be reasonable than Pilipino. Unlike the latter, "F" is appropriate in that the Philippines isn't pronounced with a silent "h" but Ph as in F. More than that, the Philippines is originally called Islas de las Filipinas and the people, Filipinos.
The institution of Pilipino/Filipino as a national language is a product
of the political policies by the past government, and I actually starting
to see the holes it has left uncovered. Maybe we should let all spoken
tongues in the Philippines be official language of commerce and law.
The problem would be how can we accomplish this. Do you have any
suggestion?
edgar tibayan
"At kung makatwiran ako'y uusog din kahit konti"---- Florante,
Filipino folk singer
Mike Schneider.
In article <34B1B5FA...@linkonline.net>, ta...@linkonline.net wrote:
> Mike Schneider wrote:
>
> > Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
> >
> > Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
> > their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
> > language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
> > misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
>
> Don't get upset, most people in Luzon understands Ilocano or one of the
Visayan dialects as well anyway....(snip)
That doesn't address my objection.
The Philippines do *not* have any one "national language", and it does
a gross disservice to the truth to imply or assert it, and an even more
gross disservice to liberty to attempt to make it law (which is the only
way Tagalog can be understood by "everyone", as following portions of your
post asserted). Tell me what good Tagalog really is (to southerners not
born to it) when the three largest newspapers in the Philippines are
printed in English.
Mike Schneider.
In article <34B1C388...@stones.com>, edgar tibayan
<etib...@stones.com> wrote:
> --------------18C87C3EAEA77DD74F38051A
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Mike Schneider wrote:
>
> > > I certainly understand your concern, in fact it is right that historical
> > facts as
> > > what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all. However, let
> > me explain
> > > why I will keep on writing in Filipino.
> >
> > Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
> >
> > Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
> > their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
> > language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
> > misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
>
> Mr. Mike Schneider,
>
> My use of the word "Filipino" in writing has historical basis.
>
> When the Commonwealth government has just been established, and the first
> thing that the Quezon administration did was to make into a reality the
> provision about the National Language in the constitution. This plan was
> expressed on October 27, 1936, stating a need to establish an Institute of
> National Language which objective was "to do a study on the native
> languages in the Philippines, with a view of developing and establishing
> one common language according to the most commonly used language."
My mistake: The social bullying obviously preceded Marcos by many years.
(See last question of my last post.)
> --------------18C87C3EAEA77DD74F38051A
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML>
> Mike Schneider wrote:
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>> I certainly understand your concern, in fact it
> is right that historical
> <BR>facts as
> <BR>> what many are now discussing are indeed beneficial to all.
> However, let
> <BR>me explain
> <BR>> why I will keep on writing in Filipino.
>
> <P> Er, you mean *Tagalog*, not "Filipino".
>
> <P> Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled
> to cram
> <BR>their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands,
> a
> <BR>language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
> <BR>misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos
> days?</BLOCKQUOTE>
> Mr. Mike Schneider,
>
> <P>My use of the word "Filipino" in writing has historical basis.
>
> <P>When the Commonwealth government has just been established, and the
> first thing that the Quezon administration did was to make into a reality
> the provision about the National Language in the constitution. This
> plan was expressed on October 27, 1936, stating a need to establish an
> Institute of National Laguage which objective was "to do a study on the
> native languages in the Philippines, with a view of developing and
establishing
> one common language according to the most commonly used language."
>
> <P>On November 13, 1936 the Institue of National Language was established
> known in Congress as the Commonwealth Law 184.
>
> <P>Quezon elected its member on January 12, 1937, according to Commonwealth
> Law 184, section 1.
> <BR>Its elected members are:
>
> <P>Jaime de Veyra ( Bisaya-Samar-Leyte ), President
> <BR>Santiago A. Fonacier ( Ilocano ), member
> <BR>Filemon Sotto ( Bisaya-Cebu ), member
> <BR>Casimiro Perfecto ( Bicol ), member
> <BR>Felix Salas Rodriguez ( Bisaya-Panay ), member
> <BR>Hadji Butu ( Mindanao ), member
> <BR>Cecilio Lopez ( Tagalog ), secretary
>
> <P>Its actual composition were from different parts of the Philippines,
> no one can say that it was dominated by Tagalogs. Only Sotto refused
> the position. On November 9, the Institute come up with a resolution
> that Tagalog is the language basis.
>
> <P>On April 1940, an Executive Order No. 263 was issued ordering the printing
> of grammar and dictionary on the National Language and to teach the same
> starting June 19, 1940 to all public and private school all over the country.
>
> <P>I asked one of my co-worker who were studying in the 50's and told me
> that they called their subject Pilipino. Now, this is not only to
> avoid friction with other provicial language, if that is your preference,
> but this is national in nature, and therefore deserves to be called as
> such. Later, however, many had resented this and thought that the
> use "P" is too Tagalog. And so some, like me have accepted to call
> it Filipino.
>
> <P>I find "Filipino" as a term to be reasonable than Pilipino. Unlike
> the latter, "F" is appropriate in that the Philippines isn't pronounced
> with a silent "h" but Ph as in F. More than that, the Philippines
> is originally called Islas de las Filipinas and the people, Filipinos.
>
> <P>The institution of Pilipino/Filipino as a national language is a product
> of the political policies by the past government, and I actually starting
> to see the holes it has left uncovered. Maybe we should let all spoken
> tongues in the Philippines be official language of commerce and law.
> The problem would be how can we accomplish this. Do you have any
> suggestion?
> <BR>
> <BR>
>
> <P>edgar tibayan
>
> <P><I>"At kung makatwiran ako'y uusog din kahit konti"</I>---- Florante,
> Filipino folk singer
> <BR>
> <BR> </HTML>
>
> --------------18C87C3EAEA77DD74F38051A--
edgar tibayan
Mike Schneider wrote:
> > >
> > > Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
> > > their language down the throats of those living in the southern islands, a
> > > language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than Luzon? Is it
> > > misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos days?
> >
> > Don't get upset, most people in Luzon understands Ilocano or one of the
> Visayan dialects as well anyway....(snip)
>
> That doesn't address my objection.
>
> The Philippines do *not* have any one "national language", and it does
> a gross disservice to the truth to imply or assert it, and an even more
> gross disservice to liberty to attempt to make it law (which is the only
> way Tagalog can be understood by "everyone", as following portions of your
> post asserted). Tell me what good Tagalog really is (to southerners not
> born to it) when the three largest newspapers in the Philippines are
> printed in English.
>
Mr. Schneider,
> Quezon elected its member on January 12, 1937, according to
> Commonwealth Law 184, section 1.
> Its elected members were:
>
> Jaime de Veyra ( Bisaya-Samar-Leyte ), President
> Santiago A. Fonacier ( Ilocano ), member
> Filemon Sotto ( Bisaya-Cebu ), member
> Casimiro Perfecto ( Bicol ), member
> Felix Salas Rodriguez ( Bisaya-Panay ), member
> Hadji Butu ( Mindanao ), member
> Cecilio Lopez ( Tagalog ), secretary
You should probably blame the people of the Philippines back then when they agreed
to have Tagalog as the basis of the national language. Again it is now national
because majority of the people understood it. Now, if your assertion is true that
Filipino muslims ( the southerners ) don't understand it and don't speak it, a
friend of mine from Zamboanga will prove you wrong.
For your information Visayas is not Luzon and they do understand Tagalog.
Filipinos in abroad speak to each other through what language do you think?
English? No sir, its in Tagalog.
Now, concerning the English newspaper, does it mean that all understand English?
You tell me.
Can you tell us how long you've been in the Philippines that you talk as if you
live more than 30 years in Luzon?
Maybe you have a better solution? Could you share it to us?
TatieA
Edgar Tibayan wrote:
>Sa mga nabasa ko'y hindi siya nabanggit
>na nag-aral sa ibang bansa o nagpakadalubhasa o nag-aral para
Tama ka kasamang Edgar, si Kapitan Miong(Aguinaldo) ay numero unong
bulak-bulero, at madalas manood ng mga barkong nagdadaan sa Ilog Pasig. Si
Aguinaldo ay hindi nakapagtapos ng Hayskul man lang. Ariba,Ariba,Ariba,LETRAN!!
Tansong Isda
Mike Schneider. wrote:
> That doesn't address my objection.
>
> The Philippines do *not* have any one "national language", and it does
> a gross disservice to the truth to imply or assert it, and an even more
> gross disservice to liberty to attempt to make it law (which is the only
> way Tagalog can be understood by "everyone", as following portions of your
> post asserted). Tell me what good Tagalog really is (to southerners not
> born to it) when the three largest newspapers in the Philippines are
> printed in English.
This is an old argument, I remember when the Visayans said that their language are
widely spoken and even greater than Tagalog, an argument ensued as to which
Visayan language it is.
Cebuanos, Warays, Ilonggo.....that is why this argument never stops. Your
objection is noted, but until there is a true concensus this law will not change.
BTW, only Cebuanos refuses to speak Tagalog in their home turf. But not here in
Southern California, as far as I know.
Mike Schneider.
In article <34B2F2DE...@stones.com>, edgar tibayan
<etib...@stones.com> wrote:
> Mike Schneider wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > Why is it that the majority living in Luzon feels compelled to cram
> > > > their language down the throats of those living in the southern
islands, > > > > language spoken nowhere else on the planet other than
Luzon? Is it
> > > > misguided culteral pride? Social bullying left over from the Marcos
> > >
> > > Don't get upset, most people in Luzon understands Ilocano or one of the
> > Visayan dialects as well anyway....(snip)
> >
> > That doesn't address my objection.
> >
> > The Philippines do *not* have any one "national language", and it does
> > a gross disservice to the truth to imply or assert it, and an even more
> > gross disservice to liberty to attempt to make it law (which is the only
> > way Tagalog can be understood by "everyone", as following portions of your
> > post asserted). Tell me what good Tagalog really is (to southerners not
> > born to it) when the three largest newspapers in the Philippines are
> > printed in English.
> >
>
> Mr. Schneider,
>
> > Quezon elected its member on January 12, 1937, according to
> > Commonwealth Law 184, section 1.
> > Its elected members were:
> >
> > Jaime de Veyra ( Bisaya-Samar-Leyte ), President
> > Santiago A. Fonacier ( Ilocano ), member
> > Filemon Sotto ( Bisaya-Cebu ), member
> > Casimiro Perfecto ( Bicol ), member
> > Felix Salas Rodriguez ( Bisaya-Panay ), member
> > Hadji Butu ( Mindanao ), member
> > Cecilio Lopez ( Tagalog ), secretary
>
> You should probably blame the people of the Philippines back then when
> they agreed to have Tagalog as the basis of the national language. Again
"They agreed"....?
That's a very slick euphemism for government making whatever laws it
pleases and expecting everyone to obey them.
> it is now national because majority of the people understood it.
As much as English is the "majority" language of Canada. The only
problem is the distribution of speakers - and that's the entire trick,
isn't it?
> Now, if
> your assertion is true that Filipino muslims ( the southerners ) don't
> understand it and don't speak it, a friend of mine from Zamboanga will
> prove you wrong.
>
> For your information Visayas is not Luzon and they do understand Tagalog.
> Filipinos in abroad speak to each other through what language do you think?
> English? No sir, its in Tagalog.
>
> Now, concerning the English newspaper, does it mean that all understand
English? You tell me.
I'm *telling* you, if they want to read one of the three major
newspapers, they'd better speak English! <g>
> Can you tell us how long you've been in the Philippines that you talk as
if you live more than 30 years in Luzon?
A week in Cebu City, listening to my friend's fiance grumble after
difficulties getting some locals to understand her Luzon-native Tagalog. I
realize that for reasons of culteral pride, you wish to present an
everything-is-OK image, but it really isn't so.
> Maybe you have a better solution? Could you share it to us?
Let the people speak whatever they want (they do anyway).
They'll gravitate to whatever is the most useful.
The Philippine government has no more moral business declaring a
"national language" than does the US government.
Mike Schneider.
In article <34B3365C...@linkonline.net>, ta...@linkonline.net wrote:
> Mike Schneider. wrote:
>
> > That doesn't address my objection.
> >
> > The Philippines do *not* have any one "national language", and it does
> > a gross disservice to the truth to imply or assert it, and an even more
> > gross disservice to liberty to attempt to make it law (which is the only
> > way Tagalog can be understood by "everyone", as following portions of your
> > post asserted). Tell me what good Tagalog really is (to southerners not
> > born to it) when the three largest newspapers in the Philippines are
> > printed in English.
>
> This is an old argument, I remember when the Visayans said that their
language are
> widely spoken and even greater than Tagalog, an argument ensued as to which
> Visayan language it is.
> Cebuanos, Warays, Ilonggo.....that is why this argument never stops. Your
> objection is noted, but until there is a true concensus this law will
not change.
If there is no concensus, there shouldn't be a law.
> BTW, only Cebuanos refuses to speak Tagalog in their home turf.
Good for them. I love independants.
> But not here in Southern California, as far as I know.
AC21209
Mike,
While I find your Bisaya pride admirable, you let it cloud your vision and your
judgement.
You can sit there and pooh-pooh about moral this and moral that all day and all
night long - the Philippines has already made the law regarding a national
language. Unfortunately for your pride - it is Tagalog.
You still refuse to note the fact that Tagalog is the universal language of the
Philippines. All of the regions of the country have an understanding of the
language and allows Filipinos to communicate amongst ourselves.
When I visited Cebu, the only way that I could communicate was through English
and any attempt at Tagalog was met with reserved hostility. As if I had cursed
at your mother! It seems that only Cebuanos have such an attitude about the
language thing. Friends from Davao City regularly speak Tagalog as do other
friends from the other regions.
It would seem that it is you ( and your Cebuano brethren) that have the problem
and not the government, nor the rest of the Filipino population.
By the result of your " Cebuano ethnocentrism", you prefer us to communicate
through the tongue of the whites which seeks further to erode our people and
our culture.
LEGAL NOTICE: Anyone sending unsolicited e-mail will be charged a US$500
Joseph Sumalbag
Ang balita ko eh noong panahong iyon pag natapos ka nang greyd
payb ,
Pwede ka nang magturo ...
TatieA wrote:
>
> Edgar Tibayan wrote:
> >Sa mga nabasa ko'y hindi siya nabanggit
> >na nag-aral sa ibang bansa o nagpakadalubhasa o nag-aral para
>
> Tama ka kasamang Edgar, si Kapitan Miong(Aguinaldo) ay numero unong
> bulak-bulero, at madalas manood ng mga barkong nagdadaan sa Ilog Pasig. Si
> Aguinaldo ay hindi nakapagtapos ng Hayskul man lang. Ariba,Ariba,Ariba,LETRAN!!
--
================================================================
============================
| Joseph Sumalbag
|
| Oracle DBA
|
|
|
| The opinions expressed above are my own and doesn't
necessarily |
|reflect the opinion of any of my client company or my employer.
|
================================================================
============================
John J. Cristobal
On 7 Jan 1998, AC21209 wrote:
> By the result of your " Cebuano ethnocentrism", you prefer us to communicate
> through the tongue of the whites which seeks further to erode our people and
> our culture.
You make a very strong point there. If there should be any national
language to unify, whether it be Tagalog, Ilokano, Bisaya, etc., first
and foremost it should be a native language, not English. This American
mentality is a prime source of cultural erosion in the Phil.
Conversion, este...Translation:
May punto ka sa sinabi mo. Kung mayroon mang wikang magsasanib ng ating
lahi, maging Tagalog, Ilokano, Bisaya, atbp., marapat lamang na wikang
katutubo ito, at hindi Ingles. Ang pagkiling sa Kanong pag-iisip ay ang
pamuhatan ng pagguho ng kultura sa Pilipinas.
edgar tibayan
AC21209 wrote:
> Mike,
>
> While I find your Bisaya pride admirable, you let it cloud your vision and your
> judgement.
>
> You can sit there and pooh-pooh about moral this and moral that all day and all
> night long - the Philippines has already made the law regarding a national
> language. Unfortunately for your pride - it is Tagalog.
>
> You still refuse to note the fact that Tagalog is the universal language of the
> Philippines. All of the regions of the country have an understanding of the
> language and allows Filipinos to communicate amongst ourselves.
>
> When I visited Cebu, the only way that I could communicate was through English
> and any attempt at Tagalog was met with reserved hostility. As if I had cursed
> at your mother! It seems that only Cebuanos have such an attitude about the
> language thing. Friends from Davao City regularly speak Tagalog as do other
> friends from the other regions.
>
> It would seem that it is you ( and your Cebuano brethren) that have the problem
> and not the government, nor the rest of the Filipino population.
>
> By the result of your " Cebuano ethnocentrism", you prefer us to communicate
> through the tongue of the whites which seeks further to erode our people and
> our culture.
>
> LEGAL NOTICE: Anyone sending unsolicited e-mail will be charged a US$500
> proofreading fee. Consider this official notification. Failure to comply will
> result in legal action.
>
> 303jf...@anydomain.net,
> abuse@localhost
> rch...@fcc.gov
> rhu...@fcc.gov
AC21209,
Ako'y nagpupugay sa iyong tinuran, salamat. [ translation: "I salute what you
said. Thank you" ]
edgar tibayan
Don't bother to read from here. The line is long because the network said that my
reply is short than what you posted. I'm just tricking this.
.
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end here
Johnny Thor
John J. Cristobal <udu0...@email.sjsu.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.98010...@athens.sjsu.edu>...
>
> You make a very strong point there. If there should be any national
> language to unify, whether it be Tagalog, Ilokano, Bisaya, etc., first
> and foremost it should be a native language, not English. This American
> mentality is a prime source of cultural erosion in the Phil.
>
It's been discussed here in scf numerous times. As always my arguments are
unchanged:
1. English should be the national language of the PI. Today it is the
medium for instruction and is the preferred language for commerce and
industry.
2. Tagalog is only widely spoken in Southern Luzon. To pursue Filipino
which is really Tagalog in disguise will continue to foster regional
divisiveness.
3. When we speak English we not only get thru to our fellow countrymen but
also to the rest of the world.
4. English is fully developed today and now. To device a new language based
on traditional languages a la Bahasa Indonesia today and now will be
expensive and a waste of time and effort.
5. Nonetheless, everyone is free to speak their tongue of choice for other
activities. Noone is forcing anyone to abandon their heritage and
traditions. But if you want to get your message across you talk English -
Filipino English.
Now my arguments are infallible, wouldn't you reckon?
Johnny Thor
pro-English
pro-Filipino
pro-Gress
Johnny Thor
Mike Ward <mtw...@super.zippo.com> wrote in article
<34b443a5...@snews2.zippo.com>...
>
> On 8 Jan 1998 01:58:22 GMT, "Johnny Thor" <Johnn...@HutMail.Com>
> wrote:
> >
> >Now my arguments are infallible, wouldn't you reckon?
>
> As always they are close to it, my man.. close to it.
>
> The only argument that makes any sense about English being a negative
> force is the fact knowing it enables Filipinos to work abroad easier.
> They are in greater demand due to their fluency in English. Thus
> increasing remittances which enables the present rotten system to stay
> afloat. In that sense it is a destructive force, I guess.
>
Then, Manong Mike, the culprit is not the command of English. But rather
the remittances. I say let's put an end to all remittances, now and today,
and solve this "destructive force" once and for all.
8-)
Johnny
Tansong Isda
Mike Schneider. wrote:
> In article <34B3365C...@linkonline.net>, ta...@linkonline.net wrote:
>
> If there is no concensus, there shouldn't be a law.
> Good for them. I love independants.
I agree, there shouldn't be a law, and I also admire independents.
But, shouldn't there be some kind of uniting language?
Cebu is not spoken in Luzon, understood in some Islands, the Waray speakers will
fight
if forced to speak Cebuano.
Like I said an old argument.
TatieA
Tansong isda wrote:
<<BTW, only Cebuanos refuses to speak Tagalog in their home turf. But not here
the press during cory's govt. and said " you can only speak to me in English
or Cebuano". He also encouraged the people in Cebu to sing the National Anthem
in Cebuano. But NOW, he just not talks in Tagalog, you can even hear him sing
in Tagalog!! WHY?!? It's election time!!
AC21209
Johnny Thor -
Your comments are ludicrous.
Foolishness on your part to suggest that Filipinos designate English as the
national language. As if Filipinos didn't have an identity problem as it were.
You need to step back, sit down and re-affirm yourself because you are simply
foolish.
antonqui
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.98010...@athens.sjsu.edu>,
"John J. Cristobal" <udu0...@email.sjsu.edu> wrote:
> You make a very strong point there. If there should be any national
> language to unify, whether it be Tagalog, Ilokano, Bisaya, etc., first
> and foremost it should be a native language, not English. This American
> mentality is a prime source of cultural erosion in the Phil.
>
> John
John, there is really nothing to unify. Tagalog, whether
'some' Cebuanos like it or not, has already been accepted as
a common language by about 99.9% of Filipinos. Just talk to
any Filipino who has ever worked in the Middle East where
half a million Filipino expatriates are concentrated. They
come from various parts of the Philippines. Or any Filipino
who has worked in other non-English-speaking countries. The
common language they spoke to one another? Tagalog, not
English.
All these talk about preference to English is just a waste
of time. Why? Filipinos understand and 'could' speak in English!
So, use both Tagalog and English! Focus on important problems
such as traffic congestion, kidnapping, graft and corruption,
poverty, population explosion, preparation for calamities:
typhoons, floods, earthquakes, communist insurgency, muslim
secession, etc. etc.
No, I don't mean to litter this ng with such topics. I'm
just making a point...;o)
-Anton
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Johnny Thor
AC21209 <ac2...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980109061...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> Johnny Thor -
>
> Your comments are ludicrous.
Perhaps you are right. But we need convincing. How about posting better
counter-arguments to mine?
>
> Foolishness on your part to suggest that Filipinos designate English as
the
> national language. As if Filipinos didn't have an identity problem as it
were.
The reason why Filipinos have an identity problem is because they are in
self-denial. Denying to themselves that English is part of our Philippine
heritage. It is no different with someone who has inherited a car but
refuses to drive it and instead decides to walk by foot. He refuses to
utilise a resource because he feels that it is not his own as he did not
earn it with his own sweat. Let's get real and face the facts.
Tagalog may be legislated as the national language but the language is raw
and not rich enough. It doesn't cut industry nor technology. In other words
it is worthless as a medium of communication for anything save prose,
poetry and informal kibbitzing. Ditto with the other traditional languages
such as Cebuano, Ilocano and Pampango.
Tagalog and the other traditional languages are like a push bike. Sure you
can stroll around with it but would you take it to the motorway? English is
a tried and tested industry strength language which has evolved thru the
times. What difference does it make if English is a recent phenomenon to
our heritage? Computers are a recent addition to humankind, but we sure
bloody adopted it quickly.
We don't have to mimick American English or British English. We can adopt
it as our own and call it Philippine English. Our Philippine dictionary
should reflect additions to the language which is unique to our culture and
traditions. It should reflect our unique diction and pronunciations. The
same thing that the Yanks, Kiwis and Aussies did to English and the Canucks
did to French.
>
> You need to step back, sit down and re-affirm yourself because you are
simply
> foolish.
You don't win arguments by resorting to personal attacks. You lose
credibility, too.
Johnny
pro-English
pro-Filipino
pro-Gress
Mike Schneider.
> Mike Schneider. wrote:
>
> > In article <34B3365C...@linkonline.net>, ta...@linkonline.net wrote:
> >
> > If there is no concensus, there shouldn't be a law.
> > Good for them. I love independants.
>
> I agree, there shouldn't be a law, and I also admire independents.
> But, shouldn't there be some kind of uniting language?
If the "unity" is *forced*, what good is it?
It'd be a contradiction in terms; an oxymoron.
> Cebu is not spoken in Luzon, understood in some Islands, the Waray
speakers will fight if forced to speak Cebuano.
I don't see that there's a problem here (except maybe for politicians
in Manila who have that certain social-engineering itch that just can't be
scratched enough). If the residents of Cebu would rather learn English as
their second language so they can read the newspapers and converse with
the world on the internet rather than have they and their kids waste time
(in their view) in government schools learning Tagalog, that's there
choice and their business.
> Like I said an old argument.
Tansong Isda
Mike Schneider. wrote:
> If the "unity" is *forced*, what good is it?
>
> It'd be a contradiction in terms; an oxymoron.
>
> > Cebu is not spoken in Luzon, understood in some Islands, the Waray
> speakers will fight if forced to speak Cebuano.
>
> I don't see that there's a problem here (except maybe for politicians
> in Manila who have that certain social-engineering itch that just can't be
> scratched enough). If the residents of Cebu would rather learn English as
> their second language so they can read the newspapers and converse with
> the world on the internet rather than have they and their kids waste time
> (in their view) in government schools learning Tagalog, that's there
> choice and their business.
>
> > Like I said an old argument.
>
English is already the standard in Govt. and business, meaning, there isn't any
point in
in it.
Learning Tagalog? Learning Cebuano? My first wife is Cebuano, she speaks Tagalog
very well and so does her family. Outside of Cebu, they would have to speak either
English or Tagalog, it can be a choice. A Frenchman outside of Quebec would have
to speak English, Isn't it better if they can communicate outside of that Island?
No one likes Social Engineers (their experimentations are intrusive), but, reality
insists on learning a language other than English.
When I was in College in the Philippines I joined the protest against forced
learning of English and Spanish (should be a choice, I got kicked out of UP
Diliman). Now, I use both in my everyday dealing with life!
Americans should learn more of the World's languages, Spanish, Chinese and
Japanese to deal with the world outside of it's influence.
Tansong Isda
TatieA wrote:
There's a lot of schools in Cebu that refuses to teach Tagalog, but Cebu is a
small island and their influence with their language is just as small. It doesn't
make sense to me.
Well, this is not my problem, if they want this they can have it.
Jun B.
On 9 Jan 1998 01:46:37 GMT, tat...@aol.com (TatieA) wrote:
: This reminds me when Sen.John Osmena was in Malacanang being interviewed by
:the press during cory's govt. and said " you can only speak to me in English
:or Cebuano". He also encouraged the people in Cebu to sing the National Anthem
:in Cebuano. But NOW, he just not talks in Tagalog, you can even hear him sing
:in Tagalog!! WHY?!? It's election time!!
He-he-heh! Mga kasama, iyan ang trapo.
(My friends, that is [a perfect example of] a "trapo". [Note: "trapo"
is a conjunction of the English phrase "TRAditional POlitician", a
description that has negative connotations (as if "politician" wasn't
negative enough.)]
--------------
Jun B.
bai...@interlog.com
Tansong Isda
> "Ang hindi raw lumingon sa pinangalingan ay katulad
> daw ni Tansong Isda"... ooops... mali... "Ang hindi raw lumingon sa
> pinangalingan ay may stiff neck"... wrong again.... "Ang hindi raw
> marunong magmahal sa sariling wika ay kasimbaho ng paa kong me alipunga
> ang amoy"....
>
> Mabuhay ang Pilipinas!!! Mabuhay!!! Banzai Piripins!!!
>
> Tonyong Gago
P're ko,
marami anong barkada nuon sa Tundo, tagarun ka ba?
Not that it matters, puro patay na iyon anyway.
Tchiowa
edgar tibayan wrote:
<snipped>
A well reasoned argument. But consider this. If the purpose of this
group is communication and the overwhelming majority of people in this
group speak English, then isn't communication better served by posting
in English? You say you post in Filipino. No you don't. It appears you
are posting in Tagalog. What about the Cebuano speaking people who read
this group? Are they not filipino?
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <01bd1ccd$05d4fdc0$e3093a9d@eric_nt4>,
"Johnny Thor" <Johnn...@HutMail.Com> wrote:
>
>AC21209 <ac2...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19980109061...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>> Johnny Thor -
>>
>> Your comments are ludicrous.
>
>Perhaps you are right. But we need convincing. How about posting better
>counter-arguments to mine?
>
>>
>> Foolishness on your part to suggest that Filipinos designate English as
>the
>> national language. As if Filipinos didn't have an identity problem as it
>were.
>
>The reason why Filipinos have an identity problem is because they are in
>self-denial. Denying to themselves that English is part of our Philippine
>heritage. It is no different with someone who has inherited a car but
>refuses to drive it and instead decides to walk by foot. He refuses to
>utilise a resource because he feels that it is not his own as he did not
>earn it with his own sweat. Let's get real and face the facts.
>
Johnny, you're nothing but a wannabe. Most people in the Philippines
*cannot* speak English. The real way to advance the country is to start
teaching people in their first languages. Of course, there will be limitations
given the number of languages, but many other countries have started on
this course.
The idea that Philippine languages are not "rich" enough is also ill-conceived
propaganda. All languages are flexible to absorb terms for purpose needed.
There are countless examples of languages having to borrow to make new terms.
English is one of these languages.
But the most important thing again is that studies have shown children learn
much faster and better when instructed in their first language.
(___)
\_/ Paul Kekai Manansala
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <884326605...@dejanews.com>,
joe...@axionet.com (antonqui) wrote:
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.98010...@athens.sjsu.edu>,
> "John J. Cristobal" <udu0...@email.sjsu.edu> wrote:
>
>> You make a very strong point there. If there should be any national
>> language to unify, whether it be Tagalog, Ilokano, Bisaya, etc., first
>> and foremost it should be a native language, not English. This American
>> mentality is a prime source of cultural erosion in the Phil.
>>
>> John
>
>John, there is really nothing to unify. Tagalog, whether
>'some' Cebuanos like it or not, has already been accepted as
>a common language by about 99.9% of Filipinos.
Having traveled around the Philippines, I don't think this is the case.
You can always find some who speak Tagalog anywhere, but rarely will
it be spoken by the masses of the people. That is the case throughout
the Visayas, Mindanao and Northern Luzon.
Tonyo
Dyani
Haay naku tong si Dyani, nakatungtong lang ng "Land of the Aboriginees"
akala mo kung sino nang maka-Ingles. Pumarine ka nga sa Tondo at sa
bahay ng Bespren ko sa Mekawayan, Bulacan at magiinglis ka. Tang na ka,
taga Quezon City ka lang dati trip mo nang itapal ang linguahe na
dinadakdak mo ngayon sa 'yong mga kababayan. Hooy yun ngang
"Aboriginees" dyan at mga "Native Indians" sa US ay inaalagaan ang
kanilang kultura sa pamamagitan ng pagsasalita ng kanilang tinubuaang
wika, ikaw pa kaya na sampid lang sa Australia. Aba ay para ka palang
si Imelda ayaw tumingin sa pinang-galingan. Akala nya royalty sya pero
dati ring squatter katulad ni Tonyong Gago.
Haay tanda, kung yang pag-uutak na yan ang ipamamana mo sa mga kabataan
ngayon siguro sinapak ka na ni Kumpare kong si Joe Rizal (sumalangit
nawa) na nagsabing "Ang hindi raw lumingon sa pinangalingan ay katulad
TatieA
Jun B wrote:
>He-he-heh! Mga kasama, iyan ang trapo.
>
>
gumagawa ng paraan para tayo mapaghiwahiwalay dahil lang sa boto na kanilang
kailangan.
Stephen Roach
On 9 Jan 1998 06:14:23 GMT, ac2...@aol.com (AC21209) wrote:
> Foolishness on your part to suggest that Filipinos designate English as the
> national language. As if Filipinos didn't have an identity problem as it were.
I tend to go along with the English side of this debate for no other
reason that it is the one UNIFYING language of the Philippines. I was
in Pampanga last week with my pure Tagalog girlfriend and she was out
playing cards with the locals. They used English throughout because
they simply don't know each others language (other than a few words).
We are talking here about people who were born less than 100km apart
and live on the same island! I get the impression that Filipino as the
national language being so heavily based on Tagalog has pissed off
quite a few people from the non-Tagalog provinces who feel
marginalised.
Actually, the business language of Makati is neither Tagalog or
English but Tagalish. People slip between the languages with no
problems whatsoever. It is actually quite interesting and is culture
based. When rich educated people are portrayed in Tagalog movies they
invariably speak English. It is these role models which encourage
people to learn and use this. However, they usually express themselves
better in Tagalog so the bits of English they know well, they use, and
when this becomes difficult, they lapse into Tagalog. I can usually
work out the entire conversation just from the English and bits of
Tagalog I've picked up.
Incidentally, for anyone wishing to work here, I find it better to let
people go off in Tagalog in meetings without intervening (part of the
contract says that the language will be English). They can usually
express themselves better that way and tend to solve problems quicker.
Once the decision is made, I simply ask them to explain what it was
and get it minuted in English.
---------------------------------------------------------
Steve Roach: Remove NOSPAM from address to reply:
ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com
steve...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
Stephen Roach
On 9 Jan 1998 07:06:16 GMT, "Johnny Thor" <Johnn...@HutMail.Com>
wrote:
> The reason why Filipinos have an identity problem is because they are in
> self-denial.
You know, I never worked out exactly what this self-denial stuff was
all about. It always sounded like pseudo-psychology speak to me.
Anyone care to enlighten?
>
> We don't have to mimick American English or British English. We can adopt
> it as our own and call it Philippine English. Our Philippine dictionary
> should reflect additions to the language which is unique to our culture and
> traditions. It should reflect our unique diction and pronunciations. The
> same thing that the Yanks, Kiwis and Aussies did to English and the Canucks
> did to French.
>
This is going on now. Call it Tagalish, if you like.
tezza
Tonyo wrote in message <34B6BE...@hotmail.com>...
:Dyani
:
:Haay naku tong si Dyani, nakatungtong lang ng "Land of the Aboriginees"
:akala mo kung sino nang maka-Ingles. Pumarine ka nga sa Tondo at sa
:bahay ng Bespren ko sa Mekawayan, Bulacan at magiinglis ka. Tang na ka,
:taga Quezon City ka lang dati trip mo nang itapal ang linguahe na
:dinadakdak mo ngayon sa 'yong mga kababayan. Hooy yun ngang
:"Aboriginees" dyan at mga "Native Indians" sa US ay inaalagaan ang
:kanilang kultura sa pamamagitan ng pagsasalita ng kanilang tinubuaang
:wika, ikaw pa kaya na sampid lang sa Australia. Aba ay para ka palang
:si Imelda ayaw tumingin sa pinang-galingan. Akala nya royalty sya pero
:dati ring squatter katulad ni Tonyong Gago.
:
snip
:
:Mabuhay ang Pilipinas!!! Mabuhay!!! Banzai Piripins!!!
:
:
:Tonyong Gago
Most Aborigines can only speak English. They only love their culture when it
can get them some money.
Tchiowa
> Steve Roach: Remove NOSPAM from address to reply:
> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com
> steve...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
While you're at it, I thought that English was the legal language in the
Philippines. (Not the first language of the population but the legal
language as defined by statute.) Isn't that true? Also, I'm under the
impression that English is taught in all elementary schools and that
full fluency in English is a virtual requirement for any college degree.
True?
Mike Schneider.
Shhhhh! Don't bring *that* up. <g>
TatieA
Stephen Roach wrote:
>I tend to go along with the English side of this debate for no other
>reason that it is the one UNIFYING language of the Philippines. I was
>in Pampanga last week with my pure Tagalog girlfriend and she was out
>playing cards with the locals. They used English throughout because>>
of course they will do that because YOU were there! very few kapampangans
don't understand tagalog because her neighboring provinces are Tagalog
speaking. a lot of filipinos will speak english only without the presence of
americans when they are in a drinking binge!
John Doe
Speak English !!! Right, Lemonhead???
Romy Abacan
> > We don't have to mimick American English or British English. We can adopt
> > it as our own and call it Philippine English. Our Philippine dictionary
> > should reflect additions to the language which is unique to our culture and
> > traditions. It should reflect our unique diction and pronunciations. The
> > same thing that the Yanks, Kiwis and Aussies did to English and the Canucks
> > did to French.
> >
> This is going on now. Call it Tagalish, if you like.
>
In essence this is what the modern "Pilipino" language is. Our Filipino
educators with the unofficial consent of the Dept of Education, are allowing
"Pilipino" to evolve. It is termed "Taglish" now because majority of the words
in "Pilipino" are Tagalog, followed by Spanish, Ilocano, and a mixture of common
Visayan dialects. It is now intermixed with common English words, such as "sex
(seks)", "love (lab)", "friend (pren)" etc. Filipino educators are very much
aware of the regional rivalry going on Even in academic discussions in the
classrooms, students are allowed to use "Pilipino" in order to understand what's
being taught better. I witnessed this first hand when I visited the Philippine
Women's University, and the UP Diliman Campus.
This was far different from when I was in Mapua, then UP. We were not allowed to
discuss our subjects in Pilipino. To have done so would have invited an instant
"insult" from our professor.
In my opinion, this approach is outstanding. If some words become fashionable
and common enough to be used everyday, then let it be. If the Ilocanos, and the
Cebuanos think their dialects deserve more merit, then perhaps common useage by
the Pilipinos (I hate writing Pilipino with an "F" because it's not natural)
would make the words common enough to be included in Pilipino.
antonqui
In article <694bu1$2lg...@news.csus.edu>,
I come from a non-Tagalog region in Luzon myself. But I have gone to Cebu,
the alleged home turf of oppositionists to the Tagalog language. Almost
all of the Cebuanos I came into contact with speak perfect Tagalog. Cebu
is a big province, I know. But it was apparent for Cebuanos the advantages
of being able to speak in Tagalog aside from English. Their reasons, I'm
sure, are the same as non-Tagalogs as you and me.
Romy Abacan
TatieA wrote:
With due respect to Stephen, who wrote this comment: I find this hard to believe
that the locals, who's so close to Manila do not understand Tagalog.,,err..
Pilipino. His local girlfriend, I should say, had enough tact to speak in
English (no matter how crooked), just so he's not completely left out in the
conversation. I have several friends like that, including my wife, who would not
speak the local language in the presence of non-Filipino speaking guests.
And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
and only in Metro-Manila.
If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
Gen Artemio Ricarte
> >And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
> >language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
> >signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
> >and only in Metro-Manila.
>
> >If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
> >negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
> >Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
>
> >If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
> >something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
> >English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
>
> few months ago i listened to the trial of a narcotics command official
> accused of possessing marijuana in capiz. the whole trial was in
> english. really they cant express themselves well, which led me to
> think why cant they do it in vernacular or tagalog.
A few years ago, a famous Pilipino referee named Jose Padilla was interviewed by
Howard Cossell on national television. This was after the Sugar Ray - Roberto Duran
fight. Jose Padilla is an outstanding referee and has refereed many famous fights
including Muhammad Ali, etc. Unfortunately, Jose Padilla was not as good in speaking
English as he is refereeing boxing bouts. He not only looked comical, but also stupid
on national TV in explaining his actions during the fight. Howard Cossell just tore
him up to pieces. If everyone recalls, this was the first time that Sugar Ray was
defeated and naturally, the referee was accused of siding with the Duran corner.
Needless to say, this was the beginning of Jose Padilla's downfall in the boxing
sport.
Had he not attempted to explain himself in a language he did not have a good command
of, he would have, perhaps, remained a very famous and successful referee. He would
have been better of if he had hired an interpreter to explain his actions on national
TV.
Lochinvar
Romy Abacan <rab...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
>language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
>signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
>and only in Metro-Manila.
>If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
>negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
>Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
>If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
>something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
>English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
few months ago i listened to the trial of a narcotics command official
accused of possessing marijuana in capiz. the whole trial was in
english. really they cant express themselves well, which led me to
think why cant they do it in vernacular or tagalog.
--
Lochinvar Bucane
Grand Rapids, MI
LBu...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities/Paris/4345
Lochinvar
ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen Roach) wrote:
>Actually, the business language of Makati is neither Tagalog or
>English but Tagalish. People slip between the languages with no
>problems whatsoever. It is actually quite interesting and is culture
>based. When rich educated people are portrayed in Tagalog movies they
>invariably speak English. It is these role models which encourage
>people to learn and use this. However, they usually express themselves
>better in Tagalog so the bits of English they know well, they use, and
>when this becomes difficult, they lapse into Tagalog. I can usually
>work out the entire conversation just from the English and bits of
>Tagalog I've picked up.
Hey! i know this one! they start the sentence with "actually" and the
rest is tagalog. then "actually" again and so on...
Stephen Roach
On 10 Jan 1998 14:22:39 GMT, tat...@aol.com (TatieA) wrote:
> Stephen Roach wrote:
> >I tend to go along with the English side of this debate for no other
> >reason that it is the one UNIFYING language of the Philippines. I was
> >in Pampanga last week with my pure Tagalog girlfriend and she was out
> >playing cards with the locals. They used English throughout because>>
>
> of course they will do that because YOU were there! very few kapampangans
> don't understand tagalog because her neighboring provinces are Tagalog
> speaking. a lot of filipinos will speak english only without the presence of
> americans when they are in a drinking binge!
Actually, I was not there. I was watching a movie and my gf was
outside playing cards. She returned an hour or so later saying
something to the effect; I can't understand a bloody word they're
saying. When she went back later they all decided to use English.
You may be right that the Pampangans can speak Tagalog. As I
understand it, regional pride prevents them from using it. I also get
the impression that they are not too impressed with the denziens of
Metro Manila, which is where my gf comes from.
Stephen Roach
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:35:26 -0800, Romy Abacan <rab...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>
>
> TatieA wrote:
>
> > Stephen Roach wrote:
> > >I tend to go along with the English side of this debate for no other
> > >reason that it is the one UNIFYING language of the Philippines. I was
> > >in Pampanga last week with my pure Tagalog girlfriend and she was out
> > >playing cards with the locals. They used English throughout because>>
> >
> > of course they will do that because YOU were there! very few kapampangans
> > don't understand tagalog because her neighboring provinces are Tagalog
> > speaking. a lot of filipinos will speak english only without the presence of
> > americans when they are in a drinking binge!
>
> With due respect to Stephen, who wrote this comment: I find this hard to believe
> that the locals, who's so close to Manila do not understand Tagalog.,,err..
> Pilipino. His local girlfriend, I should say, had enough tact to speak in
> English (no matter how crooked), just so he's not completely left out in the
> conversation. I have several friends like that, including my wife, who would not
> speak the local language in the presence of non-Filipino speaking guests.
>
> And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
> language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
> signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
> and only in Metro-Manila.
>
> If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
> negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
> Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
>
> If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
> something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
> English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
>
Oh, I agree. The local dialect is the one most commonly used. Many
Filipinos struggle with pure English and express themselves much
better in Tagalish. This is normal for the tv and movies. I have
trouble finding a cable channel with local news in English.
The point I was making is that when people with different first
languages interact, they often fall back to English (no matter how
difficult that may be) because they don't neccessarily know Tagalog. I
have often seen this in inter-region video conferences (and it's not
just because I'm there). That is why I say it is a unifying Language.
I was going to say that it would be interesting to find out how many
people speak Tabalog, Visayan, English, etc but that wouldn't really
help. The point is the mix of languages of the people who do the
interacting. Any survey would have to break the figures down
demographically.
On final point. When rich and / or educated people are depicted in
Tagalog movies, they invariably speak English. The one I saw on the tv
lately was the true story of 4 women who were arrested and then raped,
beaten and left for dead by the police. Well, one survived and was
taken on by a woman lawyer and eventually identified the purpetrators.
The lawyer was the only one in the movie who spoke English. In fact it
was quite fnny becuse when she interviewed the victim, she spoke
English throughout and the girl replied in Tagalog.
Stephen Roach
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:12:15 GMT, LBu...@prodigy.net (Lochinvar)
wrote:
> Romy Abacan <rab...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
> >language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
> >signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
> >and only in Metro-Manila.
>
> >If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
> >negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
> >Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
>
> >If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
> >something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
> >English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
>
> few months ago i listened to the trial of a narcotics command official
> accused of possessing marijuana in capiz. the whole trial was in
> english. really they cant express themselves well, which led me to
> think why cant they do it in vernacular or tagalog.
If, as someone has suggested in this thread, the legal system is in
English, that seems to put non-English speakers at a severe
disadvantage. Is this true? Are interpreters provided? Free? This does
not look good for justice.
Tansong Isda
Stephen Roach wrote:
> If, as someone has suggested in this thread, the legal system is in
> English, that seems to put non-English speakers at a severe
> disadvantage. Is this true? Are interpreters provided? Free? This does
> not look good for justice.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Roach: Remove NOSPAM from address to reply:
> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com
> steve...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
The legal language is in Tagalog, the older Tagalog, of which few people can understand.
Fred Amores
Stephen Roach wrote:
>
> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:12:15 GMT, LBu...@prodigy.net (Lochinvar)
> wrote:
>
> > Romy Abacan <rab...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> > >And also, as a native born Filipino, I don't agree that English is a unifying
> > >language for Filipinos. To many Americans, that's what it seems to be because
> > >signs all over the place are written in English. But that's only on the surface,
> > >and only in Metro-Manila.
> >
> > >If you watch TV patrol and you see locals from Bondoc, Jolo, Palawan, Zambales
> > >negritos, etc., you'd notice one thing when they are interviewed; they all speak
> > >Pilipino (again Taglish to some).
> >
> > >If you watch our government officials on television attempting to explain
> > >something in English, you'd notice that most of them just could not speak
> > >English. They would have been better off just explaining themselves in Pilipino.
> >
> > few months ago i listened to the trial of a narcotics command official
> > accused of possessing marijuana in capiz. the whole trial was in
> > english. really they cant express themselves well, which led me to
> > think why cant they do it in vernacular or tagalog.
>
> English, that seems to put non-English speakers at a severe
> disadvantage. Is this true? Are interpreters provided? Free? This does
> not look good for justice.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Roach: Remove NOSPAM from address to reply:
> ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com
> steve...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
Philippine courts provides free interpreters. Judges and lawyers ask
questions or interrogates in English. The interpreters do their best to
translate native dialects/languages into English. I was then
interrogated in a court sala as a witness in a criminal case. They asked
questions in English and answered them in Pilipino or sometimes with
Taglish. In my observation,court interpreters may not be acurate in
their interpretations that cause wrong judgement or delivery of justice.
Bitay ka bata!
Johnny Thor
Paul Kekai Manansala <pmana...@csus.edu> wrote in article
<694bqd$2lg...@news.csus.edu>...
>
> Johnny, you're nothing but a wannabe. Most people in the Philippines
> *cannot* speak English.
They cannot, because our educational system doesn't lend to our people's
needs. Interesting that people in Scandinavia can speak three or more
languages and I doubt if they're any smarter than us. The educational
system needs to be improved.
> The real way to advance the country is to start
> teaching people in their first languages. Of course, there will be
limitations
> given the number of languages, but many other countries have started on
> this course.
Sure, in South Luzon it's Tagalog+English; in the North it's
Ilocano+English; in Southern Islands it'll be Cebuano+English. Hell, we
might as well quit being a republic and Balkanise tomorrow.
>
> The idea that Philippine languages are not "rich" enough is also
ill-conceived
> propaganda. All languages are flexible to absorb terms for purpose
needed.
> There are countless examples of languages having to borrow to make new
terms.
> English is one of these languages.
But the basic question is what base language do we use? If you say Tagalog,
then you have just failed the exam.
>
> But the most important thing again is that studies have shown children
learn
> much faster and better when instructed in their first language.
>
Where would Hawaii be today if it did not embrace English? It'll be some
banana island wasteland filled with half-naked and ill-educated people no
different than the many parts of Polynesia of today.
Johnny
Johnny Thor
Tonyo <tonyong...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<34B6BE...@hotmail.com>...
> Dyani
>
> Pumarine ka nga sa Tondo at sa
> bahay ng Bespren ko sa Mekawayan, Bulacan at magiinglis ka.
Sure in Tondo, Tagalog is the language of kidnappers. And when they get
arrested and prosecuted, the minutes of the court proceedings are in
English. Duh! I wonder why?
Johnny
Johnny Thor
Stephen Roach <ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com> wrote in article
<34b6ef01...@204.247.247.47>...
> >
> This is going on now. Call it Tagalish, if you like.
>
Taglish is only widely spoken in Metro Manila. If you go to the boonies of
the Tagalog region, people speak straight fluent Tagalog.
Taglish is BAD! VERY BAD! You know why? Because it is dividing the
metropolis and the rural Tagalog region. If one supposedly single region
cannot speak the same language what more of the rest of the seventy-one
hundred islands.
If we don't embrace English and fix up our educational system, our country
will experience a problem far worse than the currency crisis it is
experiencing today.
Johnny
EnglishForFilipinosOrBust
Johnny Thor
Paul Kekai Manansala <pmana...@csus.edu> wrote in article
<694bu1$2lg...@news.csus.edu>...
>
> Having traveled around the Philippines, I don't think this is the case.
> You can always find some who speak Tagalog anywhere, but rarely will
> it be spoken by the masses of the people. That is the case throughout
> the Visayas, Mindanao and Northern Luzon.
>
And yet you insist that a "first" language be adopted even though you
acknowledge that there is no universal "first" language well spoken across
all the islands.
Paul, you are trolling, and don't you deny it.
Johnny
IAmNotTrolling
Johnny Thor
Tansong Isda <ta...@linkonline.net> wrote in article
<34B650F2...@linkonline.net>...
> but Cebu is a
> small island and their influence with their language is just as small.
You are totally wrong. In fact, Cebuano is the most widely used language in
the southern islands especially in Mindanao. Cebuano is more widely spoken
than Tagalog if you looked at the area where they are spoken.
How do I know this? Because a previous job took me all over the islands.
And I can emphatically claim that Tagalog is NOT, repeat NOT, widely spoken
except in the Southern Tagalog region of Luzon. The only people who spoke
Tagalog fluently in the south are those who were educated in Manila.
How did I communicate with our southern countrymen? Easy. In broken Cebuano
and mostly English.
Johnny
Johnny Thor
Tansong Isda <ta...@linkonline.net> wrote in article
<34B64AD0...@linkonline.net>...
>
> Americans should learn more of the World's languages, Spanish, Chinese
and
> Japanese to deal with the world outside of its influence.
>
Yeah right, you're dreaming. That's more difficult than getting them to
adapt SI!
ROFL!
Johnny
TatieA
Johnny Thor wrote:
>Cebuano is more widely spoken
>than Tagalog if you looked at the area where they are spoken.
In terms of area (widely) YES, but not as numerous in terms of populace.
Simon Foley
Tansong Isda wrote:
> Stephen Roach wrote:
>
> > If, as someone has suggested in this thread, the legal system is in
> > English, that seems to put non-English speakers at a severe
> > disadvantage. Is this true? Are interpreters provided? Free? This does
> > not look good for justice.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Steve Roach: Remove NOSPAM from address to reply:
> > ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com
> > steve...@NOSPAMhotmail.com
>
> The legal language is in Tagalog, the older Tagalog, of which few people can understand.
The last time I was in a court in Philippines - 1994 - all proceedings were conducted in
English with translators provided for the non(or weak)-English speakers. However, that said,
the American who was involved in the first case, that I saw, was asked, by the judge, to
speak English as it is spoken in Philippines (he had been resident Philippines for quite a
number of years). The translation for the next case was done into Kapangpangan (the court
was in Angeles City) and the next one was into Tagalog.
Also as far as I know the recording was done in English. Also all legal documents I have
seen were in English.
regards, Simon.
Stephen Roach
On 12 Jan 1998 01:26:14 GMT, "Johnny Thor" <Johnn...@HutMail.Com>
wrote:
> Taglish is only widely spoken in Metro Manila. If you go to the boonies of
> the Tagalog region, people speak straight fluent Tagalog.
Something I was told the other day and you just reminded me with the
boonies word.
I was told that the term 'boondocks' (sp) is derived from the
Philippines. I guess it means something like 'outside mainstream' or
'poor'. Anyone shed some light on this?
Stephen Roach
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:04:07 GMT, mtw...@spam.super.zippo.com (Mike
Ward) wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:55:02 GMT, ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com (Stephen
> Roach) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >On final point. When rich and / or educated people are depicted in
> >Tagalog movies, they invariably speak English. The one I saw on the tv
> >lately was the true story of 4 women who were arrested and then raped,
> >beaten and left for dead by the police. Well, one survived and was
> >taken on by a woman lawyer and eventually identified the purpetrators.
> >The lawyer was the only one in the movie who spoke English. In fact it
> >was quite fnny becuse when she interviewed the victim, she spoke
> >English throughout and the girl replied in Tagalog.
>
> Steve, do you recall if this was about the incident that happened in
> San Fernando, La Union? Background for the incident I'm referring to
> was they were picked up for allegedly shop lifting, taken by the
> police to a local dignitaries house, raped, and then thrown over a
> cliff into a canyon in the mountains and left for dead. One survived
> and was able to identify the offenders.
I don't remember all the details, it was a while ago, but it sure fits
in with your outline. Don't remember the name, either. It's funny
'though. I watched this movie and managed to follow it and my Tagalog
is simply awful.
Johnny Thor
Stephen Roach <ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com> wrote in article
<34b97489...@204.247.247.47>...
>
> I was told that the term 'boondocks' (sp) is derived from the
> Philippines. I guess it means something like 'outside mainstream' or
> 'poor'. Anyone shed some light on this?
>
"Boondocks" came from the Tagalog word "bundok" for mountain or hill.
Boondocks mean the sticks, hilly-billies, cow-town, any place removed from
civilisation.
Johnny
Mike Schneider.
In article <01bd1f00$9b4344e0$e3093a9d@eric_nt4>, "Johnny Thor"
<Johnn...@HutMail.Com> wrote:
> Tansong Isda <ta...@linkonline.net> wrote in article
> <34B64AD0...@linkonline.net>...
> >
> > Americans should learn more of the World's languages, Spanish, Chinese
> and Japanese to deal with the world outside of its influence.
Why, outside of personal individual interest?
As the world becomes interconnected via technology, it will eventually
settle upon one major language for communication. It has been readily
apparant for quite some time that that language is going to be English.
> Yeah right, you're dreaming. That's more difficult than getting them to
> adapt SI!
>
> ROFL!
>
> Johnny
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AC21209
Johnny Thor wrote:
"Where would Hawaii be today if it did not embrace English? It'll be some
banana island wasteland filled with half-naked and ill-educated people no
different than the many parts of Polynesia of today."
While I have speculated on the destiny of Hawaii had Americans not overthown
the government and forced themselves upon the islands, I find your assumption
to be extreme and ludicrous.
But, moreover, if indeed Hawaiians had not been overthrown by overzealous
American Imperialists and had retained their kingdom and they had gone the way
you see, then it would be okay. Okay because Hawaiians would have been able to
fulfill their own destiny. They would have remained an independent and free
people - free from the oppression of Americans and the interference of a
western culture.
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Tchiowa
Johnny Thor wrote:
> Boondocks mean the sticks, hilly-billies, cow-town, any place removed from
> civilisation.
I thought that was what Australia meant.
(Sorry, Johnny, couldn't resist.)
Chuck Gardner
The worst offender on the planet with regard to Taglish has to be Kris
Aquino. I've never once heard her utter a complete sentance in either all
Tagalog or all English.
Funny taglish story [true]:
in 1983, shortly after arriving in the Philippine to work as production
manager of the USIA printing plant, I hired a secretary who was a big
gossip. She was making comments and asking all sorts of personal
questions about me from the office mates in Tagalog, often within earshot
of me. About the second week I walked into the office as she was asking
someone -- in Taglish -- how many copies of a report to make and who to
give them to. At that point I knew no Tagalog at all (I'd only been
there a couple months myself) but she'd said "production report" and
"copies" in English.
So I told her,"Make 11 copies and give them to ...."
Her mouth dropped open and after I walked by she asked her co-worker, "Mr.
Gardner understands Taglog!!!!?"
He replied (with a straight face), "Sure, didn't you know he's fluent in
Taglog." And without missing a beat everyone else in the office confirmed
it with great enthusiasm.
She turned six shades of crimson (remembering all she had said and asked)
and didn't another say a work around me in Tagalog for weeks until she was
let in on the joke...
Regards,
Chuck Gardner
In article <01bd1ef9$079ecea0$e3093a9d@eric_nt4>, "Johnny Thor"
<Johnn...@HutMail.Com> wrote:
> Stephen Roach <ro...@NOSPAMportalinc.com> wrote in article
> <34b6ef01...@204.247.247.47>...
> > >
> > This is going on now. Call it Tagalish, if you like.
> >
>
> Taglish is only widely spoken in Metro Manila. If you go to the boonies of
> the Tagalog region, people speak straight fluent Tagalog.
>
> Taglish is BAD! VERY BAD! You know why? Because it is dividing the
> metropolis and the rural Tagalog region. If one supposedly single region
> cannot speak the same language what more of the rest of the seventy-one
> hundred islands.
>
> If we don't embrace English and fix up our educational system, our country
> will experience a problem far worse than the currency crisis it is
> experiencing today.
>
> Johnny
> EnglishForFilipinosOrBust
--
Chuck Gardner * http://super.nova.org
Tchiowa
AC21209 wrote:
<snipped for space-sorry>
> But, moreover, if indeed Hawaiians had not been overthrown by overzealous
> American Imperialists and had retained their kingdom and they had gone the way
> you see, then it would be okay. Okay because Hawaiians would have been able to
> fulfill their own destiny.
There was a Steppenwolf song when I was a tad younger that included a
line something like "they've got the right to do it wrong if freedom's
to survive".