Ditch Tagalog and make Malay national language of Philippines?
L Leed
now, and I was surprised at how many similar words it has to Filipino,
even though the two are mutually unintelligible.
Both are Austro-polynesian languages, but Bahasa Melayu is one of the
major world languages (300 million speakers in a few years and is one
of the fastest growing languages) and is the major language of several
close neighbors of the Philippines (who also happen to be ethnically
the same us as Malays) such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, etc.
Which got me to wondering whether the Philippines should ditch Tagalog,
and equate "Filipino" with "Bahasa Melayu" (much like "Bahasa
Indonesia" is really just Bahasa Melayu with some differences due to
foreign borrowings).
Some advantage to this:
1. We automatically align ourselves with our closest neighbors and
brothers/sisters - those from ASEAN
2. We automatically become bilingual in two of the major world
languages (Bahasa Melayu and English)
3. We get rid of the nagging feeeling by non-Tagalogs that they are
being dominated by the Tagalogs because of the fact Filipino=Tagalog.
4. Filipinos will be able to travel from one end of southeast asia
(Malaysia) to the other (Irian Jaya in Papua) and be able to speak
fluently to all inhabitants in that area.
5. Bahasa Melayu is extremely simple in grammar, but rich in literary
tradition (it is much more ancient than Tagalog). It is MUCH simpler to
learn, which will encourage foreigners in the country to learn it (my
mother picked up Bahasa Indonesia in a few months in indonesia) and
encourage its use as lingua franca even in the furthest reaches of
Philippines.
Any thoughts on this?
tumbaga
of trade between Austronesian peoples, they have to simplify it in order
to speak to each other and trade. Why do you think it is simple?
What makes you think it is older than any other Austronesian language?
There was a time when Filipinos <if you can call them that back then>
who traded speak and understand this language, in fact when Magellan
arrived, the Datus understood Enrique de Malacca who speaks Bahasa.
It is a good idea that Bahasa should be learned by Filipinos, it is high
time we FIlipinos shed this cultural bias, we are not a different people
from our cousins even with 350 years under the heels of the Spaniards.
But Bahasa is a created language, created out of necessity of trade that
became the envy of China, India and drove the Arabs and Europeans to come.
Shouldn't the whole Southeast Asia be the envy of the world again by
trade culture and prosperity?
Boracay Bill
Question: Do you believe that a person who is not an English speaker
would make better use of his/her time learning English or learning
Bahasa Melayu? (define "better" as being more likely to benefit
him/her)
OinkQuirer.com
much thought, although somebody told me some kapampangan words have
similarity with Bahasa Melayu.
I think the DECS should start considering introducing this topic in the
classrooms.
DirtySickPig
> I've been studying Bahasa Melayu (Bahasa means "language") for a month
> now, and I was surprised at how many similar words it has to Filipino,
> even though the two are mutually unintelligible.
>
> Both are Austro-polynesian languages, but Bahasa Melayu is one of the
> major world languages (300 million speakers in a few years and is one
> of the fastest growing languages) and is the major language of several
> close neighbors of the Philippines (who also happen to be ethnically
> the same us as Malays) such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, etc.
>
> Which got me to wondering whether the Philippines should ditch Tagalog,
> and equate "Filipino" with "Bahasa Melayu" (much like "Bahasa
> Indonesia" is really just Bahasa Melayu with some differences due to
> foreign borrowings).
I agree with having an international regional language (in SEA) adopted
as the national language; but is there really a reason to ditch Tagalog?
Do you think Tagalogs will agree? If we ditch Tagalog, why not ditch
all other languages and dialects spoken in the Philippines? Do you
think those people will agree?
L Leed
1. I'm filipino, but since this is a forum in english, I write in
english.
2. if everyone around you speaks Bahasa melayu, then you need to learn
Bahasa Melayu. That is, for 99.9999999% of the people in the area,
learning the language spoken by their immediate neighbors (across the
street, in the market, in the car mechianics place) is of highest
priority. English only becomes useful if it becomes necessary to speak
to foreigners who speak english or to read publications in english, and
for the vast majority of people, this will not happen. For example,
although India is thought of as an "English-speaking" country, in fact
only about 5% of so of Indians actually speak English - the vast
majority use Hindi and can get along fine with it.
L Leed
all other languages and dialects spoken in the Philippines? Do you
think those people will agree? "
No, i meant ditch tagalog as the National Language. Btw, I am Tagalog.
L Leed
> I think the DECS should start considering introducing this topic in
the
> classrooms.
I think that's a good idea. In fact, one possibility is to mandate the
use Bahasa Melayu as the language of instruction for smaller children.
The indonesians have done this very well and forged a (somewhat) united
nation just by virtue of a common language, even though you'll never
find a more diverse country in terms of indigeneous people. In fact,
even Timur, now an independent nation, still has to use Bahasa
Indonesia as a working language even though the politicians hate it,
simply because most of the younger generation grew up using it and are
more comfortable using it than Portuguese or Tetum (tetum actually is
influenced by Bahasa Melayu as well). Plus, it helps in the trading
market when your big next door neighbor uses the language.
L Leed
of trade between Austronesian peoples, they have to simplify it in
order
to speak to each other and trade. Why do you think it is simple? "
Yep, I knew this. BTW, note that although it is simple GRAMATICALLY, it
is a thoroughly modern language (much more so than Tagalog IMO) in that
there is an official body that adds words to it to keep up with modern
needs.
Aku Konsisten
Melayu Kampungan that is! All my friends who speak Bahasa Indonesia also
understand my dialect. In fact I think Bahasa Melayu Kampungan should be the
main language used in the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia, just to name
a few. Forget about Bahasa Indonesia, it's too complicated! For instance, if
you want to tell your maid to go to the market all what you need to say is,
"Pergi ke pasar" in Bahasa Melayu Kampungan. But in Bahasa Indonesia you
would have to say, "Kamu mula-mula harus keluar pintu belakang, lalu kamu
belok kekiri dan jalan lurus kira2x 5 menit sampai kamu melihat batu besar
disebelah kanan. Setelah sampai disitu kamu harus menengok ke kanan dan
kekiri untuk memastikan bahwa tidak ada ojek yg bisa menabrak kamu dan kalau
kamu melihat jalanan sudah sepi sekali barulah kamu boleh menyebrang jalan.
Pasar itu letaknya diseberang jalan." You see how complicated Bahasa
Indonesia is, just to impress people, that's all..!
"L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112514275....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
L Leed
tetapi akan anda harus kata: "Pergilah ke pasar"?
lah,lah,lah,lah,lah,lah....
L Leed
> Shouldn't the whole Southeast Asia be the envy of the world again by
> trade culture and prosperity?
We're too small - kecil-kecil! ;-)
The way things are going, we'll end up being tribute vassals of China
again (although the way things are going, the whole world is turning
into a Chinese tributary vassal)!
tumbaga
tumbaga
Southeast Asia should form its own trading bloc, they already share the
same culture with varying degrees of inlfuence from its former colonials.
tumbaga
Languages is neither modern nor too old, acceptance of newer words makes
it flexible, any language can be like that. We do laugh at the efforts
of accepting newer words, but it is the way to make "more modern".
Dalubwika
L Leed wrote:
> close neighbors of the Philippines (who also happen to be ethnically
> the same us as Malays) such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, etc.
The term "Malay" is out of vogue now; it's inaccurate. It gives the
false impression that Filipinos came from Malaysia, which isn't the
case (it's the other way around, which I explain below).
Austronesian is the better term. Austronesians came from south China,
through Taiwan, then to the Philippines. From there they populated the
various islands between Madgascar and Easter Island.
> Which got me to wondering whether the Philippines should ditch
Tagalog,
> and equate "Filipino" with "Bahasa Melayu" (much like "Bahasa
> Indonesia" is really just Bahasa Melayu with some differences due to
> foreign borrowings).
I think it's a bad idea.
> 2. We automatically become bilingual in two of the major world
> languages (Bahasa Melayu and English)
Filipinos aren't automatically bilingual in English, though.
> 3. We get rid of the nagging feeeling by non-Tagalogs that they are
> being dominated by the Tagalogs because of the fact Filipino=Tagalog.
So now we have the honor of being dominated by Indonesians and
Malaysians?
> 4. Filipinos will be able to travel from one end of southeast asia
> (Malaysia) to the other (Irian Jaya in Papua) and be able to speak
> fluently to all inhabitants in that area.
Is there a need to do that now?
> 5. Bahasa Melayu is extremely simple in grammar, but rich in literary
> tradition (it is much more ancient than Tagalog). It is MUCH simpler
to
Tagalog, Bahasa Melayu, Hawaiian, Malagasy, Javanese, Atayal, Chamorro,
Marshallese, Maori, and just about every other Austronesian language
are the same exact age. No language is older or younger than the other.
> Any thoughts on this?
Like I said, it's a bad idea. The Philippines and Filipinos would be
better served if its national and official languages actually
represented the ethnolinguistic reality of the Philippines. I don't
object to Filipinos given the CHOICE of learning Malay, I mean I have
studied the language on and off myself in the past few years. But I
don't think it, along with English and Spanish, should be the official
language.
--Chris
PS: Yes, I'm back! What'd I miss?
Dalubwika
OinkQuirer.com wrote:
> I've been hearing about this Bahasa Melayu back in UP and never gave
it
> much thought, although somebody told me some kapampangan words have
> similarity with Bahasa Melayu.
Of course, since Kapampangan and Malaysian are both Austronesian
languages. You'll find cognates within Austronesian languages. Like in
Hawaiian, the word for what is "AHA" while in Indonesia it's "APA." Or
the word for 5 is 'elima in Hawaiian and lima in Indonesian.
--Chris
Pan
[snip]
>Any thoughts on this?
My thoughts: I'm surprised you wasted the time required to think this
through and post something.
Malay is a lot simpler than English, too. Why don't we make Malay the
official language of the United States?
Spend your time on something more realistic.
Michael
If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
DirtySickPig
> On 2 Apr 2005 23:44:35 -0800, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Any thoughts on this?
>
> My thoughts: I'm surprised you wasted the time required to think this
> through and post something.
He has a right to do that. What made his post offensive to you? It
made you think, right?
> Malay is a lot simpler than English, too. Why don't we make Malay the
> official language of the United States?
We were talking about the Philippines, genius.
> Spend your time on something more realistic.
Is he supposed to say, "YES, SIR?"
> Michael
Sure you're not Ren...@AOL.com? Only Renowl could be as stupid as you.
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
I have nude pictures of Renowl's wife. Wanna buy a couple?
DirtySickPig
> --Chris
>
> PS: Yes, I'm back! What'd I miss?
Renowl's brain transplant. It was botched by the veterinary team at
Manila Zoo.
Pan
<DrtyS...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>Pan wrote:
>> On 2 Apr 2005 23:44:35 -0800, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> My thoughts: I'm surprised you wasted the time required to think this
>> through and post something.
>
>He has a right to do that.
Sure.
> What made his post offensive to you?
Nothing. Not offensive, just a waste of time. It' s not happening.
> It
>made you think, right?
No.
>> Malay is a lot simpler than English, too. Why don't we make Malay the
>> official language of the United States?
>
>We were talking about the Philippines, genius.
[snip]
We're talking about logic, genius.
And you're not worth my time, which is not surprising, considering the
moniker you chose.
Michael
kwago
He has a right to do that
> What made his post offensive to you?
this from the guy who will be bastos to people he does not know for
no good reason. gago talaga
L Leed
>
> The term "Malay" is out of vogue now; it's inaccurate. It gives the
> false impression that Filipinos came from Malaysia, which isn't the
> case (it's the other way around, which I explain below).
In vogue? Malay is a term used to refer to the ethnic background of a
person.
>
> Austronesian is the better term. Austronesians came from south China,
Thanks, but I like the sound of "Malay" better...even Jose Rizal, our
national hero, is refered to as the "Pride of the Malay Race".
> > 3. We get rid of the nagging feeeling by non-Tagalogs that they are
> > being dominated by the Tagalogs because of the fact
Filipino=Tagalog.
>
> So now we have the honor of being dominated by Indonesians and
> Malaysians?
Wrong. In fact, Pasar Malay is in fact the native language of only a
very small non-dominant group within Malaysia, but is a wide-spread
trade language that was used by Europeans, Chinese, Arabs, and many
other groups as a lingua franca for the area. It is so neutral in fact
that it was chosen by the Javanese majority in Indonesia BECAUSE it was
a trade language widespread throughout the archipelago that would not
cause problems - instead of imposing Javanese on the hundreds of
different peoples in the land, they chose more wisely than the founders
of the Philippines and set aside Javanese for this "neutral"
language....
> > 4. Filipinos will be able to travel from one end of southeast asia
> > (Malaysia) to the other (Irian Jaya in Papua) and be able to speak
> > fluently to all inhabitants in that area.
>
> Is there a need to do that now?
Is there a need for Tagalog then? Obviously, there is, even though I
won't ever go to Mindanao for example. It serves to unify a multitudes
of different people. I believe tagalog has not done this in the
Philippines because other groups in Philippines believe it is a form of
cultural dominance by the dominant group. A neutral trade language with
roots similar to our native tongue would unite as as a nation (with no
dominant group pushing its culture on another), while at the sane time
uniting as liguistically with people ethnically similar to ourselves.
> Like I said, it's a bad idea. The Philippines and Filipinos would be
> better served if its national and official languages actually
> represented the ethnolinguistic reality of the Philippines. I don't
As I mentioned earlier, most dialects in the Philippines have common
roots with Bahasa Melayu, and thus it would be acceptable as a
"neutral" language.
L Leed
Pan wrote:
> My thoughts: I'm surprised you wasted the time required to think this
> through and post something.
>
> Malay is a lot simpler than English, too. Why don't we make Malay the
> official language of the United States?
Because no one ever said simplicity was the main reason for selecting
it. read again.
L Leed
> Spend your time on something more realistic.
Hmmmm...I'll be the arbiter of what to spend my time on, thank you.
DirtySickPig
You're a special case, Renowl. I was communicating with my fellow
humans, if you don't mind.
DirtySickPig
> On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:15:28 GMT, DirtySickPig
> <DrtyS...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Pan wrote:
>>
>>>On 2 Apr 2005 23:44:35 -0800, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>Any thoughts on this?
>>>
>>>My thoughts: I'm surprised you wasted the time required to think this
>>>through and post something.
>>
>>He has a right to do that.
>
> Sure.
So, respect it.
>> What made his post offensive to you?
>
> Nothing. Not offensive, just a waste of time. It' s not happening.
Your time? Is that why you're offended by the post?
>> It made you think, right?
>
> No.
That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming that your reply was
thoughtless.
>>>Malay is a lot simpler than English, too. Why don't we make Malay the
>>>official language of the United States?
>>
>>We were talking about the Philippines, genius.
>
> [snip]
>
> We're talking about logic, genius.
Read the initial post and come back.
> And you're not worth my time, which is not surprising, considering the
> moniker you chose.
You keep talking about time. Are you really that expensive? Who's your
pimp?
> Michael
>
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
There you go, folks! Respond to him via the newsgroups and email if
your newsgroups browser can handle it. That's no longer private so
trash is ok, if his admonition is to be believed.
DirtySickPig
Please! You're wasting his time! Can't you see the son of a bitch is
an important person?
Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Just JT
>
> The indonesians have done this very well
Very well what? Indonesia is one of the most f*cked up, corrupt,
god-forsaken countries in this planet. They can't even fix their own tsunami
problems without the help of Good ole Aussies.
I say they can go to hell and that goes with their language, too!
--
DalubWhyImitateF*ckedUpPeepz?
L Leed
> Southeast Asia should form its own trading bloc, they already share
the
> same culture with varying degrees of inlfuence from its former
colonials.
I agree...the way the world is moving nowadays, the individual nations
of SE Asia cannot hope to stand up to other blocs, such as the EU, or
even to individual large countries like China and US.
Jose Rizal had a dream that the Malay nations would one day be brought
together, and this was almost realized by MAPHILINDO. Perhaps it is
time once again for this dream, now encompassing some other related
ethnic groups, to be brought to the fore.
Dalubwika
L Leed wrote:
> In vogue? Malay is a term used to refer to the ethnic background of a
> person.
>
> >
> > Austronesian is the better term. Austronesians came from south
China,
>
> Thanks, but I like the sound of "Malay" better...even Jose Rizal, our
> national hero, is refered to as the "Pride of the Malay Race".
Filipinos did not fit in the three race classification of Caucasoids,
Negroids, and Mongoloids. So anthropologist H. Otley Beyer took Malay
and used it to refer to the brown people. But since then the notion of
three races has been abandoned by anthropologists as with the notion of
the Malay race.
So, I suggest to others to avoid the term Malay like the plague. It
also causes confusion, as I said, by suggesting that Filipinos come
from Malaysia. Austronesian is more accurate and more inclusive.
> cultural dominance by the dominant group. A neutral trade language
with
> roots similar to our native tongue would unite as as a nation (with
no
> dominant group pushing its culture on another), while at the sane
time
> uniting as liguistically with people ethnically similar to ourselves.
I don't think the solution is one national language but perhaps
numerous ones. I think there are better ways of fostering national
unity than through language.
> As I mentioned earlier, most dialects in the Philippines have common
> roots with Bahasa Melayu, and thus it would be acceptable as a
> "neutral" language.
But the last thing the Philippines need is another language.
--Chris
Cheeze
cultural bias... say ditching Tagalog because the other non-tagalog
speaking Filipinos would object. I had a different opinion in college
and suggested English wuold be a neutral national language, because
everybody speaks it and its foreign to all of us so it does not favor
one gropu over the other. It was my Cebuano friend who objected and
insisted that tagalog should remain.
>From what I read in this thread, Bahasa seems equally foreign to us all
(in the Philippines). Never mind its origins. It maybe a good idea to
teach it, make SEA more like europe where everyone speaks everyone
else's language. But to make it a national language stinks of
artificiality. An effort to bend reality to what the mind considers
ideal.
Tagalog is the language of the capital, and the seat of power. Much
has already been invested on it both time and money, in the schools all
over the country that teach it. The reasons cited in this thread are
not enough to convince me to throw away that effort.
tumbaga
A Federation of Malay States perhaps? Hmmmm....?
Cheeze
tumbaga
> Bur would they really include the sick man of asia?
>
Indonesia or Philippines?
Both countries are suffering from rampant corruption, constant battles
with separatists, negative production... etc.
Pan
Very well, give me a percentage chance that your proposal will be
adopted in the foreseeable future. More than 0%?
Pan
That's why you want Malay to be the official language of the
Philippines, isn't it? Are you a JI supporter? It seems to me only
extremist Muslim terrorists are agitating for a united Nusantara
nowadays. At least, we never hear about anyone else agitating for
that.
As for blocs, there's already ASEAN, you know. You can strengthen
ASEAN instead of proposing some kind of ethnic-based association which
would marginalize ethnic minorities even more than they are today. And
how good would _that_ be for business?
Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad
> Very well, give me a percentage chance that your proposal will be
> adopted in the foreseeable future. More than 0%?
based on the % of filipinoes who are fluent in Malay, I'd say more than
5%.
I'm mildly surprised that this topic came up so suddenly.
This Michael actually know a lot about Malay culture and most of the
time he is sober. Not this time, I'm afraid.
Although this thread is about Malay, recently the spate of Tagalog
movies aired on Malaysian TV broadcasts, make me wonder.
I consider myself a Tausug, a Suluk, originally from the Sulu Islands
but also have bajau blood. It's just that my mother used to speak Sulu
language with her relatives and I managed to understand this language,
but not speak.
When hearing Tagalog, I managed to pick up lots of words. It is not so
for the Bajau dialects. So the relationship with Sulu is therefore
closer.
Sulu is an artificial language probably influenced by Arabs. Bugis is
similar. But to find such huge similarities with Tagalog which is
located too far north is surprising to me.
I also notice the large similarities with the Dusun, Sabahan local
dialect.
My family will most likely abandon Sulu language. The Bajau in Sabah is
too infiltrated with Malay words to survive long.
Although, I support the widespread use of Malays, which is much easier
to learn to Asean people than English, support for local dialects is
important also.
We must encourage our people to learn these native languages.
...
Observer
"L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112586947.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Jose Rizal had a dream that the Malay nations would one day be brought
> together, and this was almost realized by MAPHILINDO. Perhaps it is
> time once again for this dream, now encompassing some other related
> ethnic groups, to be brought to the fore.
Your colonial masters would not allow
it....and would seek ways to dismantle
anything that threaten the US dollars.
You don't get it....issit?
Observer
"tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> wrote in message
news:1152138...@corp.supernews.com...
And what has these two countries have
in common?
1) Being colonised by other than the British.
2) Being left with a political system that is
onerous and ridiculous for a country that is poor.
(Hehe...senate..houses...etc...all need MONEY
just to make a decision...LOL)
3) Nobody is brave enough to streamline the
political system than what was left by the colonialists
so that its more efficient, less costly to run, and have
better chance of good laws boing passed.
One poser, do you think your past colonial
masters would design and leave you such
a good system so that you can be HIGHER
and MORE prosperous than them...or would
they leave you with many idiotic and booby trapped
systems so that you spend many decades
just going roung in circles while they continue
to spend to treasures they looted from your country?
Hehe....
tumbaga
Tribalism, clanishness, regionalism, prejudices. Centralized
governments, militarism....
Constant blame being placed on their Chinese minorities.
Constant blame on their former colonial masters.
tumbaga
I for one don't care what the official language is, if a trading bloc is
possible, that can be worked out later.
ASEAN has promise, I don't know how far that would go or how fair it
would turn up for everyone.
tumbaga
> Pan wrote:
>
>>On 3 Apr 2005 20:55:47 -0700, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>tumbaga wrote:
>
>
> tumbaga is a Sulu word for copper, tembaga in Malay.
> ...
Thank you. That is the same word in Northern Philippines.
>
>>>ethnic groups, to be brought to the fore.
>>
>>That's why you want Malay to be the official language of the
>>Philippines, isn't it? Are you a JI supporter? It seems to me only
>>extremist Muslim terrorists are agitating for a united Nusantara
>
>
> only among Muslim regions, which is already a reality as far as
> language is concerned.
>
>
> ...
>
>>As for blocs, there's already ASEAN, you know. You can strengthen
>>ASEAN instead of proposing some kind of ethnic-based association
>
> which
>
>>would marginalize ethnic minorities even more than they are today.
>
> And
>
> but not against Malay language.
>
>
>>how good would _that_ be for business?
>
>
>
> it would allow lesser educated people to communicate and therefore
> trade.
> English is just too difficult and therefore expensive for Asean people.
>
> ...
>
Majority of people in Southeast Asia are farmers and can not use English
in their work, for thousands of years Southeast Asians used the oceans
as highways to trade and colonized the islands.
I say bring that back.
tumbaga
American veracity is being threatened by the Chinese, USDollar by the
Euro. Lots of people finding Euro a lot more stable and switching
standards, soon trade would be using Euro instead of USD.
What is new?
tumbaga
The Bajaus had been much maligned in Southeast Asia because of their
gypsy(sea?) status. I would be surprised if Tausug is actually an
artificial language, influenced by other languages perhaps but not
artificial and that can be said for all languages no matter where it is
spoken.
It would be ashame if Bajau is forgotten.
Observer
"tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> wrote in message
> > Your colonial masters would not allow
> > it....and would seek ways to dismantle
> > anything that threaten the US dollars.
> >
> > You don't get it....issit?
> >
> >
> American veracity is being threatened by the Chinese, USDollar by the
> Euro. Lots of people finding Euro a lot more stable and switching
> standards, soon trade would be using Euro instead of USD.
You think that will happen?
You really don't know your colonial masters
and what they are capable of doing to protect
their own interest.
> What is new?
DirtySickPig
> On 3 Apr 2005 17:16:35 -0700, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Pan wrote:
>>
>>>Spend your time on something more realistic.
>>
>>Hmmmm...I'll be the arbiter of what to spend my time on, thank you.
>
>
> Very well, give me a percentage chance that your proposal will be
> adopted in the foreseeable future. More than 0%?
>
> Michael
Wow! Pan de Sal is DEMANDING responses! I told you, folks, Pan de Sal
is IMPORTANT!
But in my guesstimate, it's less than zero. Those were the odds given
by people like you to most of the world's greatest and commercially
viable tangible inventions and purely intellectual work. You got one or
the other, by the way, Pan de Sal?
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
Send him public email with trash. Reply via Usenet and email.
DirtySickPig
> On 3 Apr 2005 20:55:47 -0700, "L Leed" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>tumbaga wrote:
>>Jose Rizal had a dream that the Malay nations would one day be brought
>>together, and this was almost realized by MAPHILINDO. Perhaps it is
>>time once again for this dream, now encompassing some other related
>>ethnic groups, to be brought to the fore.
> That's why you want Malay to be the official language of the
> Philippines, isn't it? Are you a JI supporter? It seems to me only
> extremist Muslim terrorists are agitating for a united Nusantara
> nowadays. At least, we never hear about anyone else agitating for
> that.
Reading newspapers are fine. But once in a while, you got to break open
a good book. Then you won't go about spewing crap like this.
DirtySickPig
> But the last thing the Philippines need is another language.
>
> --Chris
Or another Dalub.
DirtySickPig
>>Very well, give me a percentage chance that your proposal will be
>>adopted in the foreseeable future. More than 0%?
> based on the % of filipinoes who are fluent in Malay, I'd say more than
> 5%.
>
> I'm mildly surprised that this topic came up so suddenly.
>
> This Michael actually know a lot about Malay culture and most of the
> time he is sober. Not this time, I'm afraid.
Bwahahahahahaha! And if you will note, the SOB hasn't sobered up yet.
What a binge.
DSP
tumbaga
What I wrote is already happening.
Chinese veracity is causing oil prices to go high. Euro is climbing up
compared to USD, the US cannot stop the onslaught on their currency.
Tell me how can the US stop it?
Attack China? Who produces most of the goods that US is importing at
this moment?
Wouldn't that shake US currency further down?
Do I know my former colonial master? Of course I do.
Do you know yours?
Chuckles
>You think that will happen?
>You really don't know your colonial masters
>and what they are capable of doing to protect
>their own interest.
To which colonial masters do you refer? The Dutch have gone as have
the English, US and Spain.....Oh! I guess that you mean the remaining
Colonial Master, Indonesia frantically raping Irian Jaya!
L Leed
> American veracity is being threatened by the Chinese, USDollar by the
> Euro. Lots of people finding Euro a lot more stable and switching
> standards, soon trade would be using Euro instead of USD.
Funny thing is when I was last in Philippines, the dollar dropped by
several cents against the peso! It really was a sad thing to watch.
L Leed
than
> 5%.
Ahhh....well one can always dream....
Filipinos have always been the "English-speaking" nation of Asia, and
look where that has gotten us, economically, politically,
whatever.....a mixed up race of "mongrels" who cannot seem to figure
out who they are...
>
> I'm mildly surprised that this topic came up so suddenly.
I was learning Bahasa Indonesia and suddenly realized it's actually
pretty cool - sounds smooth (e.g. "orang-orang hutan") and it's
relatively simple, but makes do with some nifty tricks using
duplication and such.
> Although, I support the widespread use of Malays, which is much
easier
> to learn to Asean people than English, support for local dialects is
> important also.
> We must encourage our people to learn these native languages.
No arguments there...
L Leed
Pan wrote:
>
> Very well, give me a percentage chance that your proposal will be
> adopted in the foreseeable future. More than 0%?
Perhaps you're hard of hearing, or English is not your mother tongue:
what I do with my time is my business.
tumbaga
Yes, it was... was just there last week. It is dropping by the peso now,
more and more people demanding Euro... won't take long.
Pan
I moved on to the next question. Explain how you see that there's any
chance of your proposal being adopted. Or don't.
Pan
wrote:
[snip]
Observer, look at this reasonably. How is it in the interest of
Malaysia to form a trading bloc with Indonesia and the Philippines
only? Is the next proposal going to be Malaysian aid to prop up those
two poor, dysfunctional economies? This isn't about "colonial
masters." Think rationally and consider the national interest of _all
three countries_ individually.
Considering the way some Indonesians are being treated in Malaysia
lately, I don't think that the pure emotional appeal of "Malay
brotherhood" will have any effect in Malaysia nowadays.
tumbaga
> Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad wrote:
>
>>based on the % of filipinoes who are fluent in Malay, I'd say more
>
> than
>
>>5%.
>
>
>
> Ahhh....well one can always dream....
>
> Filipinos have always been the "English-speaking" nation of Asia, and
> look where that has gotten us, economically, politically,
> whatever.....a mixed up race of "mongrels" who cannot seem to figure
> out who they are...
>
>
>
>>I'm mildly surprised that this topic came up so suddenly.
>
>
>
> I was learning Bahasa Indonesia and suddenly realized it's actually
> pretty cool - sounds smooth (e.g. "orang-orang hutan") and it's
> relatively simple, but makes do with some nifty tricks using
> duplication and such.
>
Dupkication of words is comon on all Austronesian languages.
>
>
>>Although, I support the widespread use of Malays, which is much
>
> easier
>
>>to learn to Asean people than English, support for local dialects is
>>important also.
>>We must encourage our people to learn these native languages.
>
>
>
> No arguments there...
>
Learn any language but do not forget your own. Hows that?
Pan
wrote:
[snip]
>Majority of people in Southeast Asia are farmers and can not use English
>in their work, for thousands of years Southeast Asians used the oceans
>as highways to trade and colonized the islands.
>I say bring that back.
As a former resident of Terengganu, I can understand and in some
measure share your sentimental attachment to that past, but it's gone.
No more will Southeast Asia be colonized by seafarers going up rivers
and across seas in perahus with bangaus.
I like Malay and don't see anything wrong with people studying the
language. But I don't see anything big happening to Filipinos as a
result of that.
By the way, a majority of Malaysians aren't farmers anymore; Malaysia
is a much more highly developed country than the Philippines and
Indonesia, I daresay (though I haven't been to the Philippines ever
and haven't been to Indonesia since 1976, so others will be able to
confirm or refute based on their personal experiences).
Pan
wrote:
>I for one don't care what the official language is, if a trading bloc is
>possible, that can be worked out later.
>ASEAN has promise, I don't know how far that would go or how fair it
>would turn up for everyone.
Look at the EU for a comparison. That's an association of many
countries with different languages, yet they manage to work together
effectively in many ways. One crucial policy they've had that ASEAN
has never had (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the richer nations
have contributed more money and the poorer nations have received aid.
Over the years, some of the nations that started out among the poorest
(e.g. Ireland, Spain) have become among the richer ones. I think it'll
be a long time before you'll see that happen within ASEAN, but it
would probably be a good policy if people get really serious about
making ASEAN a functional unified trade bloc.
tumbaga
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:13:50 -0700, tumbaga <ta...@hindiginto.ito>
> wrote:
>
>
> As a former resident of Terengganu, I can understand and in some
> measure share your sentimental attachment to that past, but it's gone.
> No more will Southeast Asia be colonized by seafarers going up rivers
> and across seas in perahus with bangaus.
>
> I like Malay and don't see anything wrong with people studying the
> language. But I don't see anything big happening to Filipinos as a
> result of that.
>
> By the way, a majority of Malaysians aren't farmers anymore; Malaysia
> is a much more highly developed country than the Philippines and
> Indonesia, I daresay (though I haven't been to the Philippines ever
> and haven't been to Indonesia since 1976, so others will be able to
> confirm or refute based on their personal experiences).
>
> Michael
>
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
You mean you guys don't have farmers anymore? No more fishermen?
Then I have some rice to sell you guys, I am sorry, it is for such a BIG
BIG amount of money, the best rice in the world!
....
Now hows that for example. Develop that then. What do Malaysians eat?
tumbaga
This idea had been around for a long time, Philippines happen to be the
forerunner of these ideas, OK out on the front it. For years it is the
Malaysians and Indonesians that refused any talk of agreements.
One of the problem is that Malaysians have often regarded Filipinos as
too westernized, not anymore, Malaysians are even more westernized in
terms of development. Even the language has more western (English)
origin. Some say that is why it is better at adapting new words.
Now that we got that out of the way, EU demands a lot of things for the
poorer members before becoming full fledged EU members, upgrade their
economies so that the balance between poor and richer nations would be
better(equitable), it happened in Spain. Now some Eastern European
nations as well.
Yes, there are loans to do the upgrade, but it is at a cost. It isn't
easy, EU is larger in territory, all any Southeast Asians should do is
to destroy relationship with former colonial masters, English, Dutch,
Portuguese and Americans and build the ancient ones, within ourselves
the way it was.
tumbaga
>
> Observer, look at this reasonably. How is it in the interest of
> Malaysia to form a trading bloc with Indonesia and the Philippines
> only? Is the next proposal going to be Malaysian aid to prop up those
> two poor, dysfunctional economies? This isn't about "colonial
> masters." Think rationally and consider the national interest of _all
> three countries_ individually.
>
> Considering the way some Indonesians are being treated in Malaysia
> lately, I don't think that the pure emotional appeal of "Malay
> brotherhood" will have any effect in Malaysia nowadays.
>
> Michael
>
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
That sounds like a good point to me...
You need rice and fish? I got them, you industrial giant you.
Pan
wrote:
>You mean you guys don't have farmers anymore?
I don't know the situation in all parts of Malaysia, but in Terengganu
and Kelantan, what used to be huge tracts of sawah padi were drained
some time ago and are now grasslands for ruminants to graze on. Malays
are too rich now to want to put in the backbreaking labor of rice
farming. Lots of fruits and vegetables are still grown, though, as
much or more than 3 decades ago.
> No more fishermen?
[snip]
Yes, fisherment with motorboats, but the number is limited. It's a
very intelligent system because with the number limited, the fishermen
catch a lot of fish and have a very good living.
Pan
wrote:
>Pan wrote:
>>
>> Observer, look at this reasonably. How is it in the interest of
>> Malaysia to form a trading bloc with Indonesia and the Philippines
>> only? Is the next proposal going to be Malaysian aid to prop up those
>> two poor, dysfunctional economies? This isn't about "colonial
>> masters." Think rationally and consider the national interest of _all
>> three countries_ individually.
>>
>> Considering the way some Indonesians are being treated in Malaysia
>> lately, I don't think that the pure emotional appeal of "Malay
>> brotherhood" will have any effect in Malaysia nowadays.
>That sounds like a good point to me...
>You need rice and fish? I got them, you industrial giant you.
For rice, Thailand is closer to the most populous parts of Malaysia.
For fish? I don't know how much fish is imported to Malaysia. Fishing
is still a major industry in parts of Malaysia. I have friends who are
fishermen in Terengganu.
Pan
wrote:
>This idea had been around for a long time, Philippines happen to be the
>forerunner of these ideas, OK out on the front it. For years it is the
>Malaysians and Indonesians that refused any talk of agreements.
You mean agreements on subsidies? Why didn't Indonesia want to be
subsidized?
>One of the problem is that Malaysians have often regarded Filipinos as
>too westernized, not anymore, Malaysians are even more westernized in
>terms of development. Even the language has more western (English)
>origin. Some say that is why it is better at adapting new words.
I think English is still spoken more in the Philippines. I haven't
visited the Philippines, but I've had many Filipino friends and
students in the U.S., and everyone says that in the remotest villages,
one can find people who speak English well.
>Now that we got that out of the way, EU demands a lot of things for the
>poorer members before becoming full fledged EU members, upgrade their
>economies so that the balance between poor and richer nations would be
>better(equitable), it happened in Spain. Now some Eastern European
>nations as well.
Right.
>Yes, there are loans to do the upgrade, but it is at a cost.
There are _grants_, a _yearly allowance_ from the EU.
> It isn't
>easy, EU is larger in territory, all any Southeast Asians should do is
>to destroy relationship with former colonial masters, English, Dutch,
>Portuguese and Americans and build the ancient ones, within ourselves
>the way it was.
What do you mean, "destroy the relationship with former colonial
masters"? First of all, I don't see that Indonesia has a special
relationship with the Netherlands. Malaysia doesn't have much of a
special relationship with the British. Probably the Philippines is the
only Southeast Asian country today that has a particularly close tie
to its former colonial overlord, the United States.
But I really don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting that
Southeast Asian nations must be hostile to their former Western
colonizers in order to have strong ties among themselves? Why would
that be so?
Observer
"tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> wrote in message
>
> What I wrote is already happening.
> Chinese veracity is causing oil prices to go high. Euro is climbing up
> compared to USD, the US cannot stop the onslaught on their currency.
> Tell me how can the US stop it?
> Attack China? Who produces most of the goods that US is importing at
> this moment?
> Wouldn't that shake US currency further down?
Hehe....the easiest people to conquer and
subjugate are those that THINK that they
cannot be conquered.
Because they will be complacent.
I am sorry that you are a fool.
> Do I know my former colonial master? Of course I do.
> Do you know yours?
Evidently you THINK you do.
Thats why you're STILL as lowly
ranked to them as before.
Observer
"Pan" <panNO...@musician.org> wrote in message
news:ujg45155p4qne58uo...@4ax.com...
> Observer, look at this reasonably. How is it in the interest of
> Malaysia to form a trading bloc with Indonesia and the Philippines
> only?
I did not say that it is.
Nor do I purport to support such
activities.
I have no comment on this.
>Is the next proposal going to be Malaysian aid to prop up those
> two poor, dysfunctional economies? This isn't about "colonial
> masters." Think rationally and consider the national interest of _all
> three countries_ individually.
I am only talking about how people
think that countries will not react to
changes that are detrimental to them....even
worse with a tinge of intent and purpose to
bring down the value of any currency.
oth...@gmail.com
...
>
> I moved on to the next question. Explain how you see that there's any
> chance of your proposal being adopted. Or don't.
Sabahans never use Malay as our main dialect. My own mother only learn
to speak Malay as a teenager.
Sabahans have many native dialects, but they have difficulty in talking
to each other, so naturally they have to choose a middle language to
communicate to each other.
P.Ramlee, and other Malay movie stars, made Malay popular, partly it is
the most commercially viable native language.
English is too difficult to learn, at least to Asean people compared to
Malay.
As more and more people trade among each other, such as between Sabah
and the Philippines, I'm sure Malay will spread further. Tagalog will
always be limited to Philippines, despite interest in learning Tagalog
increases with the availability of good Tagalog movies.
Just study the wide acceptance of cantonese in Malaysia due to
cantonese movies.
Governments may try to promote Tagalog, but it is the public who will
determine the acceptance of any language. Fluency in many Asean
languages is common. My wife and her family, can speak Sulu and Bajau
languages.
oth...@gmail.com
...
>
> I moved on to the next question. Explain how you see that there's any
> chance of your proposal being adopted. Or don't.
Pan
wrote:
Oh, I see your point there.
mark
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad wrote:
>> based on the % of filipinoes who are fluent in Malay, I'd say more
> than
>> 5%.
>
>
> Ahhh....well one can always dream....
>
> Filipinos have always been the "English-speaking" nation of Asia, and
> look where that has gotten us, economically, politically,
> whatever.....a mixed up race of "mongrels" who cannot seem to figure
> out who they are...
You mean like Indonesia? Language isn't the problem. Without English, the
Pilipines would probably be even worse off...
L Leed
> Sabahans have many native dialects, but they have difficulty in
talking
> to each other, so naturally they have to choose a middle language to
> communicate to each other.
>
> P.Ramlee, and other Malay movie stars, made Malay popular, partly it
is
> the most commercially viable native language.
>
> English is too difficult to learn, at least to Asean people compared
to
> Malay.
Good point...I don't personally believe English is too difficult, but
then again it's my main tongue after so many years in the US. But for
the majority of people, it's the ease of use (and its similarity to
local dialects) that increases the chances of Malay's spread to some
ethnic groups in Philippine as well.
My hope is that it spread beyond just the fringes of the country and is
somehow made into a mandatory subject for grade school by the
government.
>
> As more and more people trade among each other, such as between Sabah
> and the Philippines, I'm sure Malay will spread further. Tagalog will
> always be limited to Philippines, despite interest in learning
Tagalog
> increases with the availability of good Tagalog movies.
>
Tagalog is WAY too difficult to be a lingua franca. I speak it
fluently, but then again I've been speaking it since childhood.
L Leed
> I like Malay and don't see anything wrong with people studying the
> language. But I don't see anything big happening to Filipinos as a
> result of that.
Perhaps, but you've never been to the Philippines and have no idea what
it's like. I'm Filipino and lived there for 18 years, and visited just
last year. The country is in serious need of some sort of unifying
cultural identity - and it's not spanish or american culture that they
need.
>
> By the way, a majority of Malaysians aren't farmers anymore; Malaysia
> is a much more highly developed country than the Philippines and
The Philippines is about as urbanized as Malaysia as of
1996...Indonesia is mainly agricultural. But remember, the populations
of Philippines and Indonesia are much much larger than Malaysia, which
is a relatively small country...
L Leed
> Yes, it was... was just there last week. It is dropping by the peso
now,
> more and more people demanding Euro... won't take long.
It's funny, but in the US it's actually harder to come by Euro (outside
of such things as Forex). Things are not so good economically
either....the price of gas just topped $2/gal (about $4/liter) for
regular octane, and it's affecting everyone....I just saw the news and
one guy sleeps in his office at times in order to save on gas! Plus,
the stock market has gone NOWHERE in 4-5 years.....
L Leed
> I moved on to the next question. Explain how you see that there's any
> chance of your proposal being adopted. Or don't.
Ahhh...well, even I know that it's a wild shot, which I've said several
times....but then, stranger things have happened...and as i said, i'll
be the arbiter on what to spend my time on...
L Leed
> One of the problem is that Malaysians have often regarded Filipinos
as
> too westernized, not anymore, Malaysians are even more westernized in
> terms of development.
Hehehe...
1. Why would you equate industrial devt with "westernized"?
2. You're not filipino, are you? I've been to Malaysia and I'm Filipino
and there just isn't any comparison. Filipinos are extremely
americanized, or at least the urban dwellers are...we've had a 50 year
head start on everyone else in Asia at being "americanized" and I have
yet to see any good results come out of it (well, we make good call
centers for US)...
It's GOOD to modernize and urbanize to a point, but if you forget your
CORE identity (as the Philippines did - and remember, Philippines does
not have the problems of extreme heterogeneity that Indonesia has),
then everything else does not matter....
I was actually surprised to discover that Low Malay actually was also
used in Philippines area pre-Spanish period...Lapu-lapu, the guy who
killed Magellan, spoke Malay (or at least someone in his tribe did),
and there are Malay writings in the Manila area from around that time
period.
Pan
>Good point...I don't personally believe English is too difficult
[snip]
I do. Non-phonetic spelling, irregular verbs, irregular plurals, etc.,
etc.
Just JT
>
> the price of gas just topped $2/gal (about $4/liter) for
> regular octane, and it's affecting everyone....
How did $2 a gallon become $4 a litre? There are 3.785 litres per U.S.
gallon. Thus it should be 53 cents a litre.
--
DalubImperialSystemSucks
L Leed
> You mean like Indonesia? Language isn't the problem. Without English,
the
> Pilipines would probably be even worse off...
uh....actually, the Philippines is pretty homogeneous compared to the
ethnic amalgamation that is indonesia.....if you actually knew the
Philippines you'd know I was talking not about ethnic diversity but
cultural mixing...
and yes, i think if the philippines had not been too americanized we
might actually have done better....
mark
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> mark wrote:
>> You mean like Indonesia? Language isn't the problem. Without English,
> the
>> Pilipines would probably be even worse off...
>
> uh....actually, the Philippines is pretty homogeneous compared to the
> ethnic amalgamation that is indonesia.....if you actually knew the
> Philippines you'd know I was talking not about ethnic diversity
Fair enough. I always had the impression that the Philippines is pretty
diverse, and that there were several different regional dialects/languages.
> but cultural mixing...
Do you mean in terms of mixing "Asian" culture and "Western" culture, or
Arabic/Western religious influences?
> and yes, i think if the philippines had not been too americanized we
> might actually have done better....
Americanized in terms of moral values, or in terms of language?
I hear that the Philippines was once one of the most advanced countries in
Asia. What went wrong? Was it due to misrule?
--
---
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of a message.
Q: Why is top posting a sloppy form of writing?
L Leed
LOL - sorry, my bad!
Enrico Pangan
> I hear that the Philippines was once one of the
> most advanced countries in Asia. What went
> wrong? Was it due to misrule?
I would like to believe we are (still) in a stage of transition from
being the American Colony to being the Independent Philippines.
Such a long transition.
Cheeze
1. We were better off under american rule.
2. Nationalism is a symptom that something is wrong.
We're not getting better off while we are cutting off our colonial
past. We have gotten rid of the US bases. Local TV shows have been
growing. Voltes V is now being shown in Filipino. Kids are not
learning English as well as they used to.
We were no. 2 in asia back then. We are still no. 2 now, counting from
below.
Enrico Pangan
As I said, we are still in a stage of transition. A lot of us still
remember the "good old American days" thus effectively preventing us
from moving forward in today's Philippines. We're effectively stuck in
the past.
When the reality that we are not Americans finally sinks in the
Filipino psyche, I believe we will move forward and might as well see
the "good Philippine days".
> 2. Nationalism is a symptom that something is wrong.
True, and so is giving up one's own identity for somebody elses. ;-)
> We were no. 2 in asia back then. We are still no. 2 now,
> counting from below.
If my sources are correct, even during our peak years in the 50's and
the 60's, Malaysia has a higher GDP per person than the Philippines
even though the Philippines was relatively more industrialized.
Enrico Pangan
thing's for sure, we are getting there. ;-)
Cheeze
Enrico Pangan
Yeah. I also wish more Filipinos do. ;-)
tumbaga
So you want to buy rice? I got 'em by the tons. People have to eat you know.
tumbaga
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:19:53 -0700, tumbaga <ta...@hindiginto.ito>
> wrote:
>
>
>>This idea had been around for a long time, Philippines happen to be the
>>forerunner of these ideas, OK out on the front it. For years it is the
>>Malaysians and Indonesians that refused any talk of agreements.
>
>
> You mean agreements on subsidies? Why didn't Indonesia want to be
> subsidized?
>
Who said subsidies?
To unify as one trading bloc, not subsidy.
>
>>One of the problem is that Malaysians have often regarded Filipinos as
>>too westernized, not anymore, Malaysians are even more westernized in
>>terms of development. Even the language has more western (English)
>>origin. Some say that is why it is better at adapting new words.
>
>
> I think English is still spoken more in the Philippines. I haven't
> visited the Philippines, but I've had many Filipino friends and
> students in the U.S., and everyone says that in the remotest villages,
> one can find people who speak English well.
>
Not really, English and Tagalog disguised as Filipino is taught but
English is never American English, but purely a Filipino English dialect
altho' some would argue against that but really that is what it is.
>
>>Now that we got that out of the way, EU demands a lot of things for the
>>poorer members before becoming full fledged EU members, upgrade their
>>economies so that the balance between poor and richer nations would be
>>better(equitable), it happened in Spain. Now some Eastern European
>>nations as well.
>
>
> Right.
>
>
>>Yes, there are loans to do the upgrade, but it is at a cost.
>
>
> There are _grants_, a _yearly allowance_ from the EU.
>
Only if the economic upgrade is accepted. What happens is that some of
the cost is heavily laid upon the richer countries like Germany and England.
>
>>It isn't
>>easy, EU is larger in territory, all any Southeast Asians should do is
>>to destroy relationship with former colonial masters, English, Dutch,
>>Portuguese and Americans and build the ancient ones, within ourselves
>>the way it was.
>
>
> What do you mean, "destroy the relationship with former colonial
> masters"? First of all, I don't see that Indonesia has a special
> relationship with the Netherlands. Malaysia doesn't have much of a
> special relationship with the British. Probably the Philippines is the
> only Southeast Asian country today that has a particularly close tie
> to its former colonial overlord, the United States.
>
> But I really don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting that
> Southeast Asian nations must be hostile to their former Western
> colonizers in order to have strong ties among themselves? Why would
> that be so?
>
> Michael
>
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
I don't mean in that sense, but I meant to discard, that sounds like a
better word, economic relationship that can he obtain through other
Southeast Asian neighbors, like since Malaysia no longer have farmers
that does backbraking job in the paddies, I can sell them rice and
sugar, we have plenty of sugar and rice.
tumbaga
> tumbaga wrote:
>
>>One of the problem is that Malaysians have often regarded Filipinos
>
> as
>
>>too westernized, not anymore, Malaysians are even more westernized in
>
>
>>terms of development.
>
>
> Hehehe...
>
> 1. Why would you equate industrial devt with "westernized"?
Tounge-in-cheek... in developing both their language and infrastructure,
they look like any other city with less character but with Malay signs,
like Makati for example.
> 2. You're not filipino, are you? I've been to Malaysia and I'm Filipino
> and there just isn't any comparison. Filipinos are extremely
> americanized, or at least the urban dwellers are...we've had a 50 year
> head start on everyone else in Asia at being "americanized" and I have
> yet to see any good results come out of it (well, we make good call
> centers for US)...
Akoy isang Pinoy, pina nga (a)nak sa lungsod ng Maynila.
>
> It's GOOD to modernize and urbanize to a point, but if you forget your
> CORE identity (as the Philippines did - and remember, Philippines does
> not have the problems of extreme heterogeneity that Indonesia has),
> then everything else does not matter....
>
> I was actually surprised to discover that Low Malay actually was also
> used in Philippines area pre-Spanish period...Lapu-lapu, the guy who
> killed Magellan, spoke Malay (or at least someone in his tribe did),
> and there are Malay writings in the Manila area from around that time
> period.
>
Kavi based writing? Yes, Malay? or Bahasa? The bazaar lingo. If you
trade, you have to learn that language and as you have noticed there are
enough similarity that it is easy for any Austronesian to learn that
language, it is designed to be so.
tumbaga
Then you understand only what you have imagined. Nothing about
international economics. Bye...
tumbaga
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:21:49 -0700, tumbaga <ta...@hindiginto.ito>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Pan wrote:
>>
>>>Observer, look at this reasonably. How is it in the interest of
>>>Malaysia to form a trading bloc with Indonesia and the Philippines
>>>only? Is the next proposal going to be Malaysian aid to prop up those
>>>two poor, dysfunctional economies? This isn't about "colonial
>>>masters." Think rationally and consider the national interest of _all
>>>three countries_ individually.
>>>
>>>Considering the way some Indonesians are being treated in Malaysia
>>>lately, I don't think that the pure emotional appeal of "Malay
>>>brotherhood" will have any effect in Malaysia nowadays.
>
>
>>That sounds like a good point to me...
>>You need rice and fish? I got them, you industrial giant you.
>
>
> For rice, Thailand is closer to the most populous parts of Malaysia.
> For fish? I don't know how much fish is imported to Malaysia. Fishing
> is still a major industry in parts of Malaysia. I have friends who are
> fishermen in Terengganu.
>
> Michael
>
> If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
I also have Thai ricefields, no problemo.
L Leed
> These are my unpopular sentiments:
>
> 1. We were better off under american rule.
really? not from where i'm standing...being a second class person in
your own country does not suit me, thank you.
> 2. Nationalism is a symptom that something is wrong.
then something is deadly wrong with the US nowadays. today, if you say
anything against bush or iraq you're "unpatriotic" - plus, the
effabeeeye/cia gets to put you on some list...
tumbaga
Yes, Imperial system sucks, and to top it off, Americans changed the
sizes of the Imperial system in volume sizes! American gallon is not the
same as Imperial gallon! Hows that?
tumbaga
Yes, I just paid $2.59 for a gallon, that is outrageous. I live in
Southern Cal and this state produce as much gas as the former Johnny
Cochran arguing a court case, may he rest in peace.
Dalubwika
Ir. Hj. Othman bin Hj. Ahmad wrote:
> but also have bajau blood. It's just that my mother used to speak
Sulu
> language with her relatives and I managed to understand this
language,
> but not speak.
>
> When hearing Tagalog, I managed to pick up lots of words. It is not
so
> for the Bajau dialects. So the relationship with Sulu is therefore
> closer.
>
> Sulu is an artificial language probably influenced by Arabs. Bugis is
> similar. But to find such huge similarities with Tagalog which is
> located too far north is surprising to me.
Assalamu alaykum!
Nag-anad aku magbissara Bahasa Sug, sumagawa' tiyu-tiyu ra in Bahasa
Sug ku. Bukun aku Tausug. Bihaun sumulat aku bahasa Anggalis...
So yeah, I've studied Tausug and wrote a little book about the basics
of it, if you're interested ... http://members.aol.com/linggwistik
In any case, I wouldn't call Tausug artificial. It's very much real.
The reason it's close to Tagalog is that Tausug is actually a Visayan
language. A millenium ago, people left Butuan in northern Mindanao and
came to Sulu due to trade. If you look at the Butuanon language now,
you'll find a lot of similarities with Tausug.
--Chris
tumbaga
>
> Governments may try to promote Tagalog, but it is the public who will
> determine the acceptance of any language. Fluency in many Asean
> languages is common. My wife and her family, can speak Sulu and Bajau
> languages.
>
And that is the way the cookie crubles, only popular culture can really
destroy a language. Governments cannot control that and never will be
able to.
L Leed
>
> Akoy isang Pinoy, pina nga (a)nak sa lungsod ng Maynila.
nope...you either are a non-tagalog speaking filipino or are a
foreigner...
aminin mo na, pare! alam kong kaming mga pilipino ang pinakaguwapo at
pinakamatalino sa mundo, kaya't gusto ninyo kaming gayahin - di ba? ;-)
> Kavi based writing? Yes, Malay? or Bahasa? The bazaar lingo. If you
> trade, you have to learn that language and as you have noticed there
are
> enough similarity that it is easy for any Austronesian to learn that
> language, it is designed to be so.
exactly...unlike tagalog, which is WAY too hard, is NOT a common trade
language, and is also a language forced upon other filipino groups by
the dominant group.