Filipinos who don't speak Tagalog
Azmik
Being a Filipino American, I've seen the attitude among some Filipinos that
"you are less Filipino than others like the ones born in the Philippines
that can speak the language". This is pure BS since you have all these
American born Pinoys and Pinays are we any less Filipino than the
native-speakers. Or are these people just jealous and this is their way of
getting even/leveling the playing field. This kind of attitude hurts. Even
though I know that I am as Filipino as the ones born where my parents came
from it is sad to know that there are people who think of me and other
Filipinos who were born here as "less than Filipino".
My sister was approached by another Filipino when she was working at a
retail clothing store...the guy asked "You're Filipino right?" and my sister
was like "Yeah, I am" and the guy comes back with "I bet you don't speak
Tagalog right?" very sarcastically. What business does he have questioning
my sister about speaking Tagalog? Is my sister supposed to feel bad cause
she couldn't put a sentence together in Tagalog, or in Ilokano for that
matter since we are 3/4 Ilokano and 1/4 Tagalog? That is sad.
I'd like to learn more. Sometimes it is a bit discouraging too when
matandang Filipino hear my attempts at Tagalog and laugh saying "haha you
HABB AKSENT!". Taken in with a smile. Hey, at least I'm trying :)
Thinking Aloud,
AZMIK
BT
people has to say and think. I have to admit, it takes some practice and
time but at least you're trying and that's what matters most.
You should feel proud of yourself since I know there are lots of Filipinos
out there who are even ashamed of speaking their own language. Ashamed of
their own identity and nationality. At least you, you are proud of being a
Filipino.
Azmik wrote in message ...
tansong isda
>
> Or Ilokano, or Bisayan, or Kapampangan, etc.
>
> Being a Filipino American, I've seen the attitude among some Filipinos that
> "you are less Filipino than others like the ones born in the Philippines
> that can speak the language". This is pure BS since you have all these
> American born Pinoys and Pinays are we any less Filipino than the
> native-speakers. Or are these people just jealous and this is their way of
> getting even/leveling the playing field. This kind of attitude hurts. Even
> though I know that I am as Filipino as the ones born where my parents came
> from it is sad to know that there are people who think of me and other
> Filipinos who were born here as "less than Filipino".
>
while. They just wish you learned, however, when
they have their own kids, then they understand.
I was the other way around, my father wants us to
speak his language(American English), we all did
anyway! Without his help.
> My sister was approached by another Filipino when she was working at a
> retail clothing store...the guy asked "You're Filipino right?" and my sister
> was like "Yeah, I am" and the guy comes back with "I bet you don't speak
> Tagalog right?" very sarcastically. What business does he have questioning
> my sister about speaking Tagalog? Is my sister supposed to feel bad cause
> she couldn't put a sentence together in Tagalog, or in Ilokano for that
> matter since we are 3/4 Ilokano and 1/4 Tagalog? That is sad.
>
I have to laugh....
> I'd like to learn more. Sometimes it is a bit discouraging too when
> matandang Filipino hear my attempts at Tagalog and laugh saying "haha you
> HABB AKSENT!". Taken in with a smile. Hey, at least I'm trying :)
>
> Thinking Aloud,
> AZMIK
Talagang ganun'...this is the same even if we are
not Pinoys in here.
nabi
Visayan, just do it and forget about the accent part. Accent is beautiful. If
some people cannot understand that or you, then too bad for them. Let them eat
their heart out! Look around you...UN Secretary General Kofi Anan ,Canada's PM
Jean Chretien, Butros Ghali, Arafat, etc all speaks with accent.
Azmik wrote:
> Or Ilokano, or Bisayan, or Kapampangan, etc.
>
> Being a Filipino American, I've seen the attitude among some Filipinos that
> "you are less Filipino than others like the ones born in the Philippines
> that can speak the language". This is pure BS since you have all these
> American born Pinoys and Pinays are we any less Filipino than the
> native-speakers. Or are these people just jealous and this is their way of
> getting even/leveling the playing field. This kind of attitude hurts. Even
> though I know that I am as Filipino as the ones born where my parents came
> from it is sad to know that there are people who think of me and other
> Filipinos who were born here as "less than Filipino".
>
> My sister was approached by another Filipino when she was working at a
> retail clothing store...the guy asked "You're Filipino right?" and my sister
> was like "Yeah, I am" and the guy comes back with "I bet you don't speak
> Tagalog right?" very sarcastically. What business does he have questioning
> my sister about speaking Tagalog? Is my sister supposed to feel bad cause
> she couldn't put a sentence together in Tagalog, or in Ilokano for that
> matter since we are 3/4 Ilokano and 1/4 Tagalog? That is sad.
>
Penny Richter
language spoken on the islands are in fact, less Filipino than those who do.
I don't mean that you have to speak it fluently in conversation, but that
you could follow a conversation whether written or spoken. Case in point:
I am a member of a Filipino writers' listserv with some very established
Pinoy/Pinay writers both in the Pinas and abroad. One of the subscribers
posted a compliment to an article of mine that simply said, "Ang
galing-galing ng essay mo!" Another subscriber (an established
Filipina-American poet, who is REALLY feeling maka-Pilipino) posts, "I think
that was a compliment, although I don't know what 'galing' means..." And
I'm just like, what the HELL? You claim to be a part of Filipino
__literature__ and you don't even know what a simple expression like "Ang
galing" means? Not only that, but (even worse in my opinion!) you don't
even own a Tagalog-English dictionary so that you can look it up? What the
hell kind of writer is THAT? I mean, there ARE online Tagalog dictionaries,
you know... >:( Ok, ok, so now I'm just ranting...
But seriously, Filipinos who don't even manage to pick up the simplest
expressions really earn my disdain. Bakit? Because there's too much
history of people selling out the culture and adopting the language and
values of foreign colonizers for me to be comfortable with it. Wika nga ni
Rizal noong bata pa siya, diba: "Ang hindi nagmamahal sa sariling wika ay
mabaho pa kaysa sa malansang isda", or something like that. ;) I realize
that there's a window period for language learning, and if children aren't
exposed to Tagalog/Ilokano/Bisaya/etc at an early enough age, their going to
be handicapped in it forever, but man, at least TRY to read the books and
translate with a DICTIONARY, ano! Hey, even one of my co-workers who claims
she "can't speak Tagalog" burst out laughing when I turned to her and said,
"Ang tigas ng ulo mo, ha!" Hey, she understands enough to realize when
she's being scolded, that's good enough for me! :)
Azmik <trint...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:OSYzdQg4#GA.308@cpmsnbbsa03...
Glenn10612
those Filipinos who are ashamed of their heritage once they set their foot on a
foreign land. I, myself, am half-Chinese and half-Ilocano, but I'm more proud
to be referred to as the "Filipino Guy." The Filipino people are probably one
of the most beautiful and intellectually competitive races in the world.
Despite the fact that the Philippines' reputation has been tarnished by corrupt
government leaders in the past, I guess it will rise again someday.
Hey, don't mind those chaps who mock you for your accent when you try to speak
Filipino. I guess your accent sounds cute. They're just jealous because they
probably can't even form a pefect sentence in English.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Now you know I can definitely relate. Yet these people who ask that question
have no idea. Yeah, I can always learn "a" Filipino language/dialect, but
should I learn Tagalog just because they speak it? Speaking the language of my
ancestors is one thing, speaking Tagalog is another.
Like you, I have some Ilokano blood in me. My maternal grandfather spoke
Ilokano. Whether he could speak Tagalog or not I do not know for sure, but
since he left the Phils. in 1934, I'll safely guess that the answer is "no". My
paternal grandparents came from the Visayas, so naturally they spoke Cebuano.
My grandmother (paternal) could not speak Engl., but could speak Spanish (from
what I was told). Her husband was able to speak Engl., and possibly other
dialects since he would recruit Filipino laborers.
My grandparents grew up in a different time where English was pushed to the top
as the medium of speech. Being in Hawai`i did not help either especially with
the influx of immigrants in unequal portions when it comes to the sex of the
immigrants. Which explains why my other grandfather married a native of
Hawai`i. So in turn, we do no learn the language of their country.
But you are right, it doesn't make us any less Filipino. My grandmother passed
on many, many traditions which we still carry on and from what I found out many
Cebuanos today do not really do. I'm talking things like using herbs while
massaging and other things which might seem primitive to even Filipinos today.
Although in our pidgin dialect we do use many Cebuano words along with a few
Ilokano words and many Hawaiian words, that's still some of the culture being
passed down. But given the situation with all the immigrants being converged in
one place, Filipinos should take it into consideration how or what our ancestors
went through during those times. Now, my entire family regrets not speaking
Cebuano, and we have 5 generations born in the U.S. My aunt who was the eldest
child was the only one who could speak Cebuano along w/ my grandparents.
Everyone else could not speak it, but could definitely understand it.
Kalani
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Penny Richter wrote:
> I have always felt, and still do feel, that Filipinos who don't speak some
> language spoken on the islands are in fact, less Filipino than those who do.
> I don't mean that you have to speak it fluently in conversation, but that
> you could follow a conversation whether written or spoken.
Sounds like how some Hawaiians think that if you can't speak the language, you
are less Hawaiian. I speak Hawaiian, but that does NOT make me more Hawaiian
than the majority who do not speak it. I don't speak Cebuano which is what my
grandmother spoke to me, but before I could understand it. Does that make me
less Cebuano? However, I know some of the old herbal remedies she concocted,
how to do just a bit of massaging her way, how to make bibingka the old fashion
way and use modern conveniences, make a few other Filipino deserts which I swear
when you buy them here at restaurants taste like crap, but does that make me a
bit more Filipino than others who do not make them? How do you differentiate
how much of the language or other aspect of the culture you need to do for you
to consider that we are more or less Filipino? And does the fact I know a few
Cebuano & Ilokano words make me less or more Filipino versus Tagalog?
>
> But seriously, Filipinos who don't even manage to pick up the simplest
> expressions really earn my disdain.
This, I will not argue. They could learn some, but it depends on how much
you're talking about. How much should they learn?
> Bakit? Because there's too much
> history of people selling out the culture and adopting the language and
> values of foreign colonizers for me to be comfortable with it.
I think I see this more with the new Filipino immigrants as oppose to those old
Filipinos I see back in Hawai`i who practice their old traditions. With the
younger, newer immigrants, I see them trying to be "American" and using that
term as if it was a priviledge. The langauge is just a touch of it. I see a
"sell out" when Filipinos look at having "Spanish" blood as if it made them more
aritstocratic or something. And this is based on their surname, even though
many can't trace their ancestry to their Spanish ancestors. If anything is a
sell out, it's the Filipino language using Spanish numbers or English words in
place of Tagalog. Even the colors such as blue. Although this section could
turn into another thread. :-)
I realize
> that there's a window period for language learning, and if children aren't
> exposed to Tagalog/Ilokano/Bisaya/etc at an early enough age, their going to
> be handicapped in it forever, but man, at least TRY to read the books and
> translate with a DICTIONARY, ano! Hey, even one of my co-workers who claims
> she "can't speak Tagalog" burst out laughing when I turned to her and said,
> "Ang tigas ng ulo mo, ha!" Hey, she understands enough to realize when
> she's being scolded, that's good enough for me! :)
Well yeah, I went to Tim's site and browsed through the Bisayan vocabulary and
was amazed at how many familiar words I knew. But it depends on the
individual. My older cousins are proud to be Filipinos or Visayans even though
they grew up in Hawai`i. They love the Hawn. culture and love the Filipino
culture, but have no interest in learning to speak the language even though they
know quite a number of words. But I don't think you should consider these
people any less Filipino based on their lack in ability to converse in your
language.
Azmik
nabi <na...@intergate.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:37AD37CB...@intergate.bc.ca...
> If you are interested in learning our language be it Tagalog, Ilokano or
> Visayan, just do it and forget about the accent part. Accent is beautiful.
If
> some people cannot understand that or you, then too bad for them. Let them
eat
> their heart out! Look around you...UN Secretary General Kofi Anan
,Canada's PM
> Jean Chretien, Butros Ghali, Arafat, etc all speaks with accent.
Nabi, yeah I want to learn more and since I have been with my girlfriend now
for over 5 years I find myself speaking more Tagalog. Its the only way I
can "attempt" to keep up when she chismis with my magulam.
AZMIK
Azmik
Penny Richter <penny_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37ae...@news2.foxinternet.net...
> I have always felt, and still do feel, that Filipinos who don't speak some
> language spoken on the islands are in fact, less Filipino than those who
do.
Mare...are you saying that Filipinos who can't speak any of the language
(i.e. the 10th generation Filipino Americans sa Louisiana at Governor
Cayetano at Ernie Reyes Sr./Jr., Lou Diamond Philipps, Fred Cordova, etc.)
or say these people can't speak or write a decent paragraph in Tagalog or
any of the dialects, are less Filipino? Then there are multitudes of people
who are less Filipino. Who is to say who draws the line between better and
worse off? Very divisive mentality.
> I don't mean that you have to speak it fluently in conversation, but that
> you could follow a conversation whether written or spoken. Case in point:
> I am a member of a Filipino writers' listserv with some very established
> Pinoy/Pinay writers both in the Pinas and abroad. One of the subscribers
> posted a compliment to an article of mine that simply said, "Ang
> galing-galing ng essay mo!" Another subscriber (an established
> Filipina-American poet, who is REALLY feeling maka-Pilipino) posts, "I
think
> that was a compliment, although I don't know what 'galing' means..." And
> I'm just like, what the HELL?
-------What if she was pure Ilokana? Are you outraged kasi the babae didn't
know what galing is? What if I were to tell you that someone was speaking
"gobbledygook" and you asked me what that meant? Am I to frown upon the
person who doesn't have the foggiest idea?
You claim to be a part of Filipino
> __literature__ and you don't even know what a simple expression like "Ang
> galing" means? Not only that, but (even worse in my opinion!) you don't
> even own a Tagalog-English dictionary so that you can look it up? What
the
> hell kind of writer is THAT? I mean, there ARE online Tagalog
dictionaries,
> you know... >:( Ok, ok, so now I'm just ranting...
---------Hmmm how did the person get into your group? Are you saying that
you have to know what galing means to be true to the group, or is the group
only available to native speakers?
>
> But seriously, Filipinos who don't even manage to pick up the simplest
> expressions really earn my disdain. Bakit? Because there's too much
> history of people selling out the culture and adopting the language and
> values of foreign colonizers for me to be comfortable with it.
-------That is history, tough :)
and if children aren't
> exposed to Tagalog/Ilokano/Bisaya/etc at an early enough age, their going
to
> be handicapped in it forever, but man, at least TRY to read the books and
> translate with a DICTIONARY, ano! Hey, even one of my co-workers who
claims
> she "can't speak Tagalog" burst out laughing when I turned to her and
said,
> "Ang tigas ng ulo mo, ha!" Hey, she understands enough to realize when
> she's being scolded, that's good enough for me! :)
-------I am trying but isn't it better to ask straight up as opposed to
looking things up in the dictionary for non-Tagalogs and foreigners?
Regards,
AZMIK
tansong isda
>
><the rest snipped, look above for other stuff>
> was amazed at how many familiar words I knew. But it depends on the
> individual. My older cousins are proud to be Filipinos or Visayans even though
> they grew up in Hawai`i. They love the Hawn. culture and love the Filipino
> culture, but have no interest in learning to speak the language even though they
> know quite a number of words. But I don't think you should consider these
> people any less Filipino based on their lack in ability to converse in your
> language.
There are generations of Hawaiians who couldn't
speak or understand the Hawaiian language, meaning
it died. This is the underlying fear of those who
wishes to speak the language. Language do die from
non-use. Hawaiians reconstructed their language
through other speakers of Polynesia and the
Hawaiian language you understand today, might not
even be that real Hawaiian language, only in our
generation this language is again being used.
So pls. people who grew up or born here in a
foreign land, understand the fear, it is never
meant as an insult but of fear. Cultural death
comes with the death of the language. Hawaii and
some native Americans are the prime example of
this. You don't want this as well.
The language is beautiful, learn it, you may be
the last people on earth to be able to speak the
language and enjoy it, and pass it on. And why
not? This is my take on the language bit.
bgl...@my-deja.com
fishb...@manananso.com wrote:
> The language is beautiful, learn it, you may be
> the last people on earth to be able to speak the
> language and enjoy it, and pass it on. And why
> not? This is my take on the language bit.
>
if hawaiian sounds anything like samoan then i agree, it's a beautiful
language. really sounds nice.
--
"Pork chops taste good."
--John Travolta from "Pulp Fiction"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Chris S.
bgl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> if hawaiian sounds anything like samoan then i agree, it's a beautiful
> language. really sounds nice.
I agree... But I think Klingon takes the cake.. or maybe some Slavic
language.... er.. j/k :)
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
>
> There are generations of Hawaiians who couldn't
> speak or understand the Hawaiian language, meaning
> it died.
No, a dead language is a dead language. Hawaiian is not a dead language. Latin is
not a dead
language but is used. Occitian (sp?) is a dead language. You need to know what is a
dead language
and what isn't.
> Language do die from
> non-use. Hawaiians reconstructed their language
> through other speakers of Polynesia and the
> Hawaiian language you understand today, might not
> even be that real Hawaiian language, only in our
> generation this language is again being used.
No, it is not reconstructed. My grandmother spoke the real thing. Today what they
teach in
school syntactically resembles Engl. in my own opinion. People on the island of
Ni`ihau have NEVER
ceased to speak the language although even prior to the Europeans their accent was
different from
the Leeward islands. Hawaiians did not reconstruct their language. I have no idea
where you got
that idea from.
>
> Cultural death
> comes with the death of the language. Hawaii and
> some native Americans are the prime example of
> this. You don't want this as well.
True, that's what my Spanish teacher said. With the death of a language the culture
begins to
follow. In Hawai`i there are many chants that have been preserved for generations.
Do you think
that was reconstructed? Do you think the island names and street & place names were
all
reconstructed? Have you seen the comparison to other Polynesian languages?
>
> The language is beautiful, learn it, you may be
> the last people on earth to be able to speak the
> language and enjoy it, and pass it on. And why
> not? This is my take on the language bit.
You got a point there. But I personally like languages. However, I am not about to
pass every
language that my ancestors spoke to all of my descendants. We're talking about 6
different
languages just from each of my grandparents. Some of their ancestors spoke a few
others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass on the Filipino
language because.....you feel that is the one that matters?
tansong isda
>
> In article <37AFB9B9...@dipaparito.ito>,
> fishb...@manananso.com wrote:
>
> > the last people on earth to be able to speak the
> > language and enjoy it, and pass it on. And why
> > not? This is my take on the language bit.
> >
>
> language. really sounds nice.
>
> "Pork chops taste good."
>
> --John Travolta from "Pulp Fiction"
>
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Reconstruction of the Hawiian language involved
the Samoans.
tansong isda
>
> No, a dead language is a dead language. Hawaiian is not a dead language. Latin is
> not a dead
> language but is used. Occitian (sp?) is a dead language. You need to know what is a
> dead language
> and what isn't.
>
some Hawaiian.
> No, it is not reconstructed. My grandmother spoke the real thing. Today what they
> teach in
> school syntactically resembles Engl. in my own opinion. People on the island of
> Ni`ihau have NEVER
> ceased to speak the language although even prior to the Europeans their accent was
> different from
> the Leeward islands. Hawaiians did not reconstruct their language. I have no idea
> where you got
> that idea from.
>
group of linguists took a survey of native
Hawaiians and found that most of Hawaiian words
and have disappeared. Your grandmother's a rarity
if she speaks the real thing. During that survey,
most of the words have roots in other languages,
mainly European and Japanese altho' it sounds
Hawaiian.
> True, that's what my Spanish teacher said. With the death of a language the culture
> begins to
> follow. In Hawai`i there are many chants that have been preserved for generations.
> Do you think
> that was reconstructed? Do you think the island names and street & place names were
> all
> reconstructed? Have you seen the comparison to other Polynesian languages?
>
what some of them mean(at the time of the survey I
am talking about!). I have seen comparison w/other
Polynesian languages. Its like comparing
Indonesian or Malay to any Filipino languages,
close but no cigar.
>
> You got a point there. But I personally like languages. However, I am not about to
> pass every
> language that my ancestors spoke to all of my descendants. We're talking about 6
> different
> languages just from each of my grandparents. Some of their ancestors spoke a few
> others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass on the Filipino
> language because.....you feel that is the one that matters?
Chose one, but you see there is a danger and this
is mainly the reason why FOBs wonder about the
language, it is not being passed on to the next
generation, mostly because the kids for fear of
being ridiculed as beings FOBs, refused to speak
their parent's language.
What American born kids see as insulting is
nothing but that fear. Other Asians, and even
Hispanics insist on speaking that language to
their kids and the passing of the language is
successful. The Chinese has larger amounts of
dialects, Indians has greater amount, this can be
done. However, for the survival of the "kid" it is
not necessary.
It is not a requirement to be Filipino, I have
relatives who can't even understand any of their
parent's language, keeping the traditions and
close ties w/the culture keeps it alive.
But think about this, slavery and it's
after-effect lasted by bringing down anything that
resembles the old culture and language. Most
blacks could not identify w/their African
heritage, this is sad, I fear the day when the
next generations of Pinoys lose it.
Penny Richter
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:37B01658...@earthlink.net...
<snip snip snip>
> You got a point there. But I personally like languages. However, I am
not about to
> pass every
> language that my ancestors spoke to all of my descendants. We're talking
about 6
> different
> languages just from each of my grandparents. Some of their ancestors
spoke a few
> others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass on
the Filipino
> language because.....you feel that is the one that matters?
Yeah, whatever, you just sound like you're trying to get into an argument
with someone who more or less agrees with you. Kung sasabihin sa Tagalog,
pala-away ka yata, ha.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> No, a dead language is a dead language. Hawaiian is not a dead
> language. Latin is not a dead language but is used. Occitian (sp?)
> is a dead language. You need to know what is a
> dead language and what isn't.
Grin, I like it when people say "Latin is dead." It's not really dead.
It's just different then how people spoke it long ago.... There's
French, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Romanian, Catalan, and yes.. even
Occitan! (which isn't dead btw, 250,000 people speak it)... That's just
how I see it though. :)
> others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass
> on the Filipino language because.....you feel that is the one that
> matters?
Maybe it should be passed on only *if* you speak the language.... but
then again, if you're a polyglot I'd feel sorry for the poor kid <g>
I'd love to teach Ibanag, Bikolano, Cebuano, Irish Gaelic and the other
languages my ancestors spoke to my children. But alas, I don't speak'em
;)
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
tansong isda
Actually, when you say a language is dead, it
isn't because nobody speaks it, language is
dynamic, non-use could render a language dead
(technically) because it becomes unchanging. Latin
is dead because it will no longer change, nobody
uses it except scientist who needs a fixed
description of a disease.
Hawaiian language like he said is not dead, he is
right but technically, it was. The language being
taught in Universities, as he correctly stated is
different, this is true. It is part of the problem
I worry about.
Main problem in filming stories about native
Americans is that, few people actually speaks the
language! There are so many variations to the
Lakota language for example(Sioux to most people),
that being accurate is not easy. Remember "a man
called horse", the original (1st movie) is so
innacurate that when the Mandan complained, they
remade the movie (2nd version) is better.
We Filipinos are facing the same, both because of
the pull of the popular culture and because we
don't care. Do we?
Adherence to the realities of today does not mean
abandoning our culture, you just keep both for the
sake of posterity.
I wish I have learned Tagalog and Ilocano,
properly! I wish to learn Visayan (not
Cebuano...hehehehe...too many speaks that
already...don't kill me yet), I'd also would like
to learn Basque and Gaelic, because these
languages are unique in that it is not used often.
Preservation.
Chris S.
fishb...@manananso.com wrote:
> Actually, when you say a language is dead, it
> isn't because nobody speaks it, language is
> dynamic, non-use could render a language dead
> (technically) because it becomes unchanging. Latin
> is dead because it will no longer change, nobody
> uses it except scientist who needs a fixed
> description of a disease.
Or people in the Vatican. And it's also in much use in Finland on a
radio show...
> I wish I have learned Tagalog and Ilocano,
> properly! I wish to learn Visayan (not
> Cebuano...hehehehe...too many speaks that
> already...don't kill me yet), I'd also would like
> to learn Basque and Gaelic, because these
> languages are unique in that it is not used often.
> Preservation.
Now, Gaelic is a weird-sounding language.... On Encarta it sounds like
English spoken backwards or something.... heh.
Hudson N. Jackson II
tansong isda wrote in message <37B04410...@dipaparito.ito>...
>It is not a requirement to be Filipino, I have
>relatives who can't even understand any of their
>parent's language, keeping the traditions and
>close ties w/the culture keeps it alive.
>But think about this, slavery and it's
>after-effect lasted by bringing down anything that
>resembles the old culture and language. Most
>blacks could not identify w/their African
>heritage, this is sad, I fear the day when the
>next generations of Pinoys lose it.
That's not quite true. . . some focus more on their Carribbean (sp?)
heritage, others are present-day immigrants. . . anyway you look at it,
you're a little off.
It can be argued that most blacks don't recognize the language of their
ancestors. . . but part of the reason has little to do with slavery. It's
called survival. Indeed, there were many coming from Africa and the
Carribbean since colonial days - on their own initiative - and even though
they encountered the same problems former slaves did, they eventually had to
learn English to get around, too. And over time, as English became more
important, you know the rest. That could be said about culture, also.
Something else: people talk about identifying with African heritage. . .
it's like, okey, ". . . to show your blackness, you gotta learn Swahili, you
gotta wear the kente cloth, etc. etc.". Huh? That's only a small part of
the African experience. It's as diverse as the Philippines. Even the
countries of today are multicultural societies (almost, they don't get along
often, and you can blame all these things on those European colonials), how
can one say there's *one* African heritage. . . it comes down to the tribe,
the clan. . . no different from other places on earth. O, and get this: ".
. . by the way, you also gotta celebrate Kwanzaa, that is an African
tradition." Say what? As far as I know, a black *American* professor
decided to invent the holiday. Doesn't make it African, though. The media
plays on this and confuses the people. . . and also sells out the *real*
cultures. . . the one that was transformed into the Cajun thing in New
Orleans, for example.
I fear the media will do the same to other groups, Filipinos included. The
only solution it seems is to keep the kids away from network television as
much as possible, and if not, keep drilling into their heads the values you
learned and things like that.
- Tinig na Iba
"There's a time and place to be united, there's a time and place to stand
alone."
Hudson N. Jackson II
Chris S. wrote in message <7oq30i$ub9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Grin, I like it when people say "Latin is dead." It's not really dead.
It's considered dead when new words stop appearing into the language. It
has nothing to do with how many people speak it. . . except when there's no
more of them.
- Tinig na Iba
tansong isda
Africa is even more diverse than the whole of SEA.
Their culture vary from the Arabs and Jews
(Semitic) to Polynesian culture. But this is
hardly what I'm trying to say.
African slaves were brought here and was
castigated when any semblance of their culture is
shown.
tansong isda
>
> tansong isda wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, when you say a language is dead, it
> > isn't because nobody speaks it, language is
> > dynamic, non-use could render a language dead
> > (technically) because it becomes unchanging. Latin
> > is dead because it will no longer change, nobody
> > uses it except scientist who needs a fixed
> > description of a disease.
>
> words are used. Latin is still used in some churches in the U.S. and
> possibly certain parts of Europe. It is not used as a spoken language, but
> it's not a dead language. The language of the Etruscans (forgot the name of
> their language) is dead. Latin does exist in many of our scientific terms,
> so technically it's not dead.
>
Now, there is two technical definition of "Dead"
in languages now, don't get bogged down on this.
We both defined two already. They are both
correct, technically. When a language is no longer
dynamic it's dead<no.1 definition>. When there
isn't a speaker of the language<no.2 definition>.
> >
> > Hawaiian language like he said is not dead, he is
> > right but technically, it was. The language being
> > taught in Universities, as he correctly stated is
> > different, this is true. It is part of the problem
> > I worry about.
>
> are over 20 something Hawaiian language immersion schools. An example of the
> Hawaiian language dying out is in my Hawaiian family which mirrors many other
> Hawaiian families. Our grandparents spoke it, didn't encourage the next
> generation to speak it, but there was enough spoken to that my mother's
> generation could understand it, then in the 70's they began offering classes
> in the language after more than 50 years of the Hawaiian language being
> banned in public and private schools.
>
Interesting, you have just said what I am trying
to say. When it was banned 50 years is two
generations. The Euro-centric academia insist that
Chamorro and Hawaiian is not a language. Do you
speak Hawaiian fluently? This is what is meant by
usage,.. fluency.
> However, some other families that I know of, especially on the island where I
> am from there is a continuous flow of the language from one generation to
> another. I don't think you understand fully what a dead language really is.
> There are many minor languages mainly in Europe that is slowly dying out, but
> that doesn't mean technically they are already dead just because the majority
> of the speakers are above the 50 year old range. Hawaiian has never died. I
> gave you the example of one particular island. That island is called
> Ni`ihau. On that island, unlike the rest of the islands, Hawaiian is their
> first language, then English. The other islands use English as the main
> language, but in reality it is pidgin English, not proper English. On
> Ni`ihau they don't speak pidgin. So this is proof that the language has
> never died. Just because they teach it at school doesn't mean that there was
> a sign that it died. And it if it, for how long was it dead?
>
What you have written is also in the survey, but
it was not taken into account (I don't know-I
think because non-natives aren't allowed). Knowing
and speaking is two different things now. I
understand Ilocano, but I can only speak the
curses!
> The proto-polynesian language that linguist reconstructed is technically
> dead, but it exists in all Polynesian languages. Just as "Italic" was the
> origin of Latin, which is what all the Romance languages base their origin
> from.
>
> >
> > Main problem in filming stories about native
> > Americans is that, few people actually speaks the
> > language! There are so many variations to the
> > Lakota language for example(Sioux to most people),
> > that being accurate is not easy. Remember "a man
> > called horse", the original (1st movie) is so
> > innacurate that when the Mandan complained, they
> > remade the movie (2nd version) is better.
>
> same situation, but they did something about that. Hawaiian is the only
> native language within the U.S. that is offered in school.
>
That is what I tried to say.
There are variations (dialects) to the Lakota
language and few knows it today.
Hooray for Hawaiians they are successful there,
and should be an example, which I tried to do. Use
it as an example why the language is important.
Imagine from being banned to being taught in
school.
We went around and around saying this and that. We
just didn't see, I tried to show that language as
part of the culture is important and used Hawaiian
as an example why. And you showed me I am correct
but corrected me in some point, excellent!
Overall, I don't see any disagreement.
>
> I think the Filipino languages' only threat would be the influence of
> English. If only it could continue to use true Tagalog words, then you
> wouldn't have a problem.
That is part of the problem, I saw this happening
when I was in high school, most of the kids are
speaking Taglish and it sounded terrible. This
effect made me unaware of some Tagalog words for
certain things, like my wife told me "Sulyaw" and
I wondered what that is, I grew up in the
Philippines but I have no idea what that is! And
it is Tagalog....
I know mangkok, the word is actually Chinese but
it is like the sulyaw but a little smaller.
Or am I the only one who didn't know this?
tansong isda
>
> I can't see myself passing on to my descendants Bisayan, Ilokano, Cantonese
> (or Hakka...not sure which one), Hawaiian, Euskadi, Spanish, German and
> English. I can see Hawaiian and English as well as many Bisayan words
> which I can't help but use. :-)
>
> Not to get too off track here, but when I first came to Calif, about 4
> years after while my Filipino co-worker was looking through a book of mine
> written in the pidgin language of Hawai`i, she saw a term...which is
> actually Hawaiian called "makapiapia". She asked me what that was, I told
> her that it was "muta" (sp?). She said "oh" then asked how we say it in
> Engl. I had no idea how we said it in Engl. Many odd words in the Engl.
> lang. I do not know, but know only the Bisayan or Hawaiian word, because
> that's how I grew up. Another one was what is referred to as "cowlick"
> here in the states. Back in Hawai`i we called it "giri-giri". Don't know
> the origin on that one though. :-)
>
That's Japanese.
Azmik
However, I think it is wrong for Filipinos to come up to
> Filipinos born & raised in the U.S. telling you (mainly me) or asking,
"Why don't you speak
> Tagalog" or worse yet, "Why didn't your parents teach you? That's
ashame!" without knowing
> any history of my family or the circumstances.
-----Like Mr. Tagalog whom interrogated my sister. What next? If you don'
like rice, you're not Filipino?
That I find totally offensive.
-----IMHO so do I?
I can't
> imagine a person from Italy going to New York meeting a 2nd or 3rd
generation Italian
> saying the same exact thing. Probably because the Italians (from Italy)
know better. Same
-----Jealousy might be a factor here?
AZMIK
Penny Richter
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:37B0DA5F...@earthlink.net...
> I think you're either new to newsgroups, read things in a different way or
just
> unable to have a good point to prove. Seems like you're the only person
who
> reacted to this question. If you don't like it, then too bad. If you
have
> nothing good to say, that's okay.
Sounds to me like YOU'RE the one new to this newsgroup. Get a clue.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Chris S." wrote:
>
>
> Maybe it should be passed on only *if* you speak the language.... but
> then again, if you're a polyglot I'd feel sorry for the poor kid <g>
>
> I'd love to teach Ibanag, Bikolano, Cebuano, Irish Gaelic and the other
> languages my ancestors spoke to my children. But alas, I don't speak'em
> ;)
I can't see myself passing on to my descendants Bisayan, Ilokano, Cantonese
>
>
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
>
> Well, there are only a handful of people who speak
> some Hawaiian.
Yes, but that small amount has grown tremendously within the past decade due to those
immersion schools. But it's not a dead language.
>
> Got the idea by reading. During the late 60's a
> group of linguists took a survey of native
> Hawaiians and found that most of Hawaiian words
> and have disappeared. Your grandmother's a rarity
> if she speaks the real thing. During that survey,
> most of the words have roots in other languages,
> mainly European and Japanese altho' it sounds
> Hawaiian.
> >
Linguist taking a survey but how would they be able to base on what was spoken before?
That's impossible, unless they were there before the Europeans to take a survey then and
compare. Although I can tell you there are some words that are less frequently used but
are reserved for songs & chants. Personally I can tell you that I do see some sentence
structures based on Engl. I'm pretty sure it is, but that's only when a preposition is
involved.
>
>
> The chants are there, and most people don't know
> what some of them mean(at the time of the survey I
> am talking about!). I have seen comparison w/other
> Polynesian languages. Its like comparing
> Indonesian or Malay to any Filipino languages,
> close but no cigar.
Many people cannot comprehend chants. In fact, some people who learn the chants do learn
the meaning but might not be able to converse in the language. But it is different unless
you speak the language.
And yes, all Polynesian languages are fairly similar but unlike in Asia and especially
Europe, there was one thing lacking. The isolation. Because of that, each Polynesian
language had time to remain almost the same as it did before. Maybe you're getting
confused with the Proto-Polynesian language that they have reconstructed? I thought that
was done in the early 70's or before that. But that was to prove scientifically where
Polynesians came from, along with archeological findings and oral history (chants). This
reconstructed language is not spoken, but is used only to point out what possibly could
have been the original language.
My grandmother is not a rarity when it comes to speaking the language. Like my cousin's
grandmother, they learned Hawaiian first at home from their parents who weren't very fluent
in the Hawaiian language. It's hard for me to tell what words you are referring to not
being used as much. But according to the Hawaiian dictionary, there are just way too many
words for us today to forget. Ok, that doesn't make sense, but what I mean is that I might
use a term to describe a particular type of condition while on a boat. Perhaps the sea is
rough. I might use a term equivalent to rough or harsh when describing the sea. Although
that is not wrong, there are specific terms for it. Perhaps these are the words you are
referring to? Because in reality, it is quite difficult to learn all of these specific
terms when it comes to nature, but not impossible because we all learn these terms
eventually.
>
> We're talking about 6
> > different
> > languages just from each of my grandparents. Some of their ancestors spoke a few
> > others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass on the Filipino
> > language because.....you feel that is the one that matters?
>
> Chose one, but you see there is a danger and this
> is mainly the reason why FOBs wonder about the
> language, it is not being passed on to the next
> generation, mostly because the kids for fear of
> being ridiculed as beings FOBs, refused to speak
> their parent's language.
I think many of us growing up thought that. As for my older cousins, I don't
know...possibly the same thing. But nowadays it's a different story. At our reuion (maybe
I said this before) we attempted to have a list of Bisayan words that we used while growing
up. It's all about pride, but then no one will take the initiative to learn it THEN you
have obstacles such as paying to learn Filipino, or more specifically a different dialect.
>
> What American born kids see as insulting is
> nothing but that fear. Other Asians, and even
> Hispanics insist on speaking that language to
> their kids and the passing of the language is
> successful. The Chinese has larger amounts of
> dialects, Indians has greater amount, this can be
> done. However, for the survival of the "kid" it is
> not necessary.
But I do know many Mexicans who are in the same situation that we were in. They can
understand Spanish, but don't speak it. They like us grew up in a different time where
"assimilation" was important in order to blend in. Now, it's pride but by now my
generation is somewhat older and learning a language in order to pass down to the next
generation is hard.
>
>
> It is not a requirement to be Filipino, I have
> relatives who can't even understand any of their
> parent's language, keeping the traditions and
> close ties w/the culture keeps it alive.
> But think about this, slavery and it's
> after-effect lasted by bringing down anything that
> resembles the old culture and language. Most
> blacks could not identify w/their African
> heritage, this is sad, I fear the day when the
> next generations of Pinoys lose it.
I think I have to look at the Blacks in order to really open my eye to understand that it
is important. My friend Debra who is black would always say that I or "we" had weird
things, weird tradition. At first I was offended. Oh, in case you're wondering, she was
referring to both the Hawaiian and Filipino things or food & other misc. cultural things
such as Japanese or Portuguese that I would present to her. Anyway, it didn't hit me till
later that I might think the same had someone done the same to me of another culture. The
thing is, she really does not have a culture. Because her ancestors were segregated and
discouraged (like in Hawai`i) to speak their own language.
It is very sad all in all. When I think about it, to me personally, sometimes it's not
enough for me to just know the culture, know the history (which some Filipinos from the
Phils. do not know at least in my many experiences) to consider myself Bisayan or
Filipino. Knowing the language would be a special asset that would open another aspect of
my grandmother's culture. However, I think it is wrong for Filipinos to come up to
Filipinos born & raised in the U.S. telling you (mainly me) or asking, "Why don't you speak
Tagalog" or worse yet, "Why didn't your parents teach you? That's ashame!" without knowing
any history of my family or the circumstances. That I find totally offensive. I can't
imagine a person from Italy going to New York meeting a 2nd or 3rd generation Italian
saying the same exact thing. Probably because the Italians (from Italy) know better. Same
with those of German or any other European ancestry. I say I get offended because as far
as I know, or at least in the case of my paternal grandmother who raised me, she DID NOT
SPEAK Tagalog.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
>
> Actually, when you say a language is dead, it
> isn't because nobody speaks it, language is
> dynamic, non-use could render a language dead
> (technically) because it becomes unchanging. Latin
> is dead because it will no longer change, nobody
> uses it except scientist who needs a fixed
> description of a disease.
No, a dead language is when there are not only no speakers but none of the
words are used. Latin is still used in some churches in the U.S. and
possibly certain parts of Europe. It is not used as a spoken language, but
it's not a dead language. The language of the Etruscans (forgot the name of
their language) is dead. Latin does exist in many of our scientific terms,
so technically it's not dead.
>
> Hawaiian language like he said is not dead, he is
> right but technically, it was. The language being
> taught in Universities, as he correctly stated is
> different, this is true. It is part of the problem
> I worry about.
Not only is it taught at the universities but also at many schools and there
are over 20 something Hawaiian language immersion schools. An example of the
Hawaiian language dying out is in my Hawaiian family which mirrors many other
Hawaiian families. Our grandparents spoke it, didn't encourage the next
generation to speak it, but there was enough spoken to that my mother's
generation could understand it, then in the 70's they began offering classes
in the language after more than 50 years of the Hawaiian language being
banned in public and private schools.
However, some other families that I know of, especially on the island where I
am from there is a continuous flow of the language from one generation to
another. I don't think you understand fully what a dead language really is.
There are many minor languages mainly in Europe that is slowly dying out, but
that doesn't mean technically they are already dead just because the majority
of the speakers are above the 50 year old range. Hawaiian has never died. I
gave you the example of one particular island. That island is called
Ni`ihau. On that island, unlike the rest of the islands, Hawaiian is their
first language, then English. The other islands use English as the main
language, but in reality it is pidgin English, not proper English. On
Ni`ihau they don't speak pidgin. So this is proof that the language has
never died. Just because they teach it at school doesn't mean that there was
a sign that it died. And it if it, for how long was it dead?
The proto-polynesian language that linguist reconstructed is technically
dead, but it exists in all Polynesian languages. Just as "Italic" was the
origin of Latin, which is what all the Romance languages base their origin
from.
>
> Main problem in filming stories about native
> Americans is that, few people actually speaks the
> language! There are so many variations to the
> Lakota language for example(Sioux to most people),
> that being accurate is not easy. Remember "a man
> called horse", the original (1st movie) is so
> innacurate that when the Mandan complained, they
> remade the movie (2nd version) is better.
Many Native American languages are dying and the Hawaiian lang. faced the
same situation, but they did something about that. Hawaiian is the only
native language within the U.S. that is offered in school.
>
> We Filipinos are facing the same, both because of
> the pull of the popular culture and because we
> don't care. Do we?
> Adherence to the realities of today does not mean
> abandoning our culture, you just keep both for the
> sake of posterity.
> I wish I have learned Tagalog and Ilocano,
> properly! I wish to learn Visayan (not
> Cebuano...hehehehe...too many speaks that
> already...don't kill me yet), I'd also would like
> to learn Basque and Gaelic, because these
> languages are unique in that it is not used often.
> Preservation.
I think the Filipino languages' only threat would be the influence of
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Penny Richter wrote:
> Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> message news:37B01658...@earthlink.net...
> <snip snip snip>
> > You got a point there. But I personally like languages. However, I am
> not about to
> > pass every
> > language that my ancestors spoke to all of my descendants. We're talking
> about 6
> > different
> > languages just from each of my grandparents. Some of their ancestors
> spoke a few
> > others. Should I pass all of those on? Or are you saying just pass on
> the Filipino
> > language because.....you feel that is the one that matters?
>
> Yeah, whatever, you just sound like you're trying to get into an argument
> with someone who more or less agrees with you. Kung sasabihin sa Tagalog,
> pala-away ka yata, ha.
I think you're either new to newsgroups, read things in a different way or just
bgl...@my-deja.com
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
sir,
i really like all these posts you're writing about languages etc. very
interesting. nice modest tone too--something you don't always find in
newsgroups. one thing though, it's this statement:
> With the death of a language the culture begins to follow.
don't get me wrong i'm all for preserving languages, be it hawaiian or
whatever, and language is no doubt part of culture but i don't know
that the death of a language is necessarily a precursor to cultural
demise. too many examples that suggest otherwise. further, language is
pretty fluid and dynamic, constantly evolving over time, and as such,
how can it really be a cultural touchstone that determines a culture's
survivability? some of the non tagalog speaking members of this very
newsgroup have argued as much. these arguments often bring disdain from
ng members that *do* speak tagalog. anyway, maybe some people here can
expand on the question of language as a vital and essential component
of culture and whether or not the two are inexorably linked. i don't
think they are, but then again i'm usually wrong about most everything.
i picked the knicks in the nba finals. duh.
--
"Pork chops taste good."
--John Travolta from "Pulp Fiction"
Chris S.
"Hudson N. Jackson II" <H2JA...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> It's considered dead when new words stop appearing into the language.
> It has nothing to do with how many people speak it. . . except when
> there's no more of them.
But with the case of Latin, it *evolved* into many languages....So in
one sense it's still alive...They kept on receiving words... As one
person said in sci.lang, one person didn't start to say "let's stop
speaking language and start speaking this Portuguese!" (or something
like that.)
Pardon my rambling.. heh
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
MarcL
but more importantly by heart .
A Filipino-Australian who played socceer for Marconi in Australia was offered to
play for a team in the UK (where big money are) but choose to play in RP instead
to help bring the profile of socceer in RP. There's nothing more his mother
can aspire for to be proud of his son's decision.
Azmik wrote:
> Or Ilokano, or Bisayan, or Kapampangan, etc.
>
> Being a Filipino American, I've seen the attitude among some Filipinos that
> "you are less Filipino than others like the ones born in the Philippines
> that can speak the language". This is pure BS since you have all these
> American born Pinoys and Pinays are we any less Filipino than the
> native-speakers. Or are these people just jealous and this is their way of
> getting even/leveling the playing field. This kind of attitude hurts. Even
> though I know that I am as Filipino as the ones born where my parents came
> from it is sad to know that there are people who think of me and other
> Filipinos who were born here as "less than Filipino".
>
> My sister was approached by another Filipino when she was working at a
> retail clothing store...the guy asked "You're Filipino right?" and my sister
> was like "Yeah, I am" and the guy comes back with "I bet you don't speak
> Tagalog right?" very sarcastically. What business does he have questioning
> my sister about speaking Tagalog? Is my sister supposed to feel bad cause
> she couldn't put a sentence together in Tagalog, or in Ilokano for that
> matter since we are 3/4 Ilokano and 1/4 Tagalog? That is sad.
>
> I'd like to learn more. Sometimes it is a bit discouraging too when
> matandang Filipino hear my attempts at Tagalog and laugh saying "haha you
> HABB AKSENT!". Taken in with a smile. Hey, at least I'm trying :)
>
> Thinking Aloud,
> AZMIK
bongn...@my-deja.com
Hawaii........... so manny Filipinos (teens) who was born in the
Philippines are ashamed of speaking there native Language.......
Because they fear being called "Buk-Buks" (what the locals call people
who have recently come from the Philippines) or "Fob" (what I think the
Mainland reffers to them)
I think your taking things differently....... Even in the Philippine
Tagalog is being replace (my opintion) by English.... English is
widely used in Television...... and All the Local Newspaper I have read
in there are in English........ Some family teach English to children
as there first Language.
bongn...@my-deja.com
bongn...@my-deja.com
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
>
> Reconstruction of the Hawiian language involved
> the Samoans.
No it did not. And if you were to say that to a Samoan, they'd laugh.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
> Back in Hawai`i we called it "giri-giri". Don't know
> > the origin on that one though. :-)
> >
> That's Japanese.
Oh, I thought so. Sounded Japanese. *L*
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
tansong isda wrote:
> Latin is still used in some churches in the U.S. and
> > possibly certain parts of Europe. It is not used as a spoken language, but
> > it's not a dead language. The language of the Etruscans (forgot the name of
> > their language) is dead. Latin does exist in many of our scientific terms,
> > so technically it's not dead.
> >
> Now, there is two technical definition of "Dead"
> in languages now, don't get bogged down on this.
> We both defined two already. They are both
> correct, technically. When a language is no longer
> dynamic it's dead<no.1 definition>. When there
> isn't a speaker of the language<no.2 definition>.
> > >
Not from a linguistic point. There's only one. But if you look at it through a
regular person's point of view, it might be viewed as dead basing solely on the
fact that it's not used conversationally.
> Our grandparents spoke it, didn't encourage the next
> > generation to speak it, but there was enough spoken to that my mother's
> > generation could understand it, then in the 70's they began offering classes
> > in the language after more than 50 years of the Hawaiian language being
> > banned in public and private schools.
> >
> Interesting, you have just said what I am trying
> to say. When it was banned 50 years is two
> generations. The Euro-centric academia insist that
> Chamorro and Hawaiian is not a language. Do you
> speak Hawaiian fluently? This is what is meant by
> usage,.. fluency.
I don't speak it fluently, but just because it was banned that doesn't mean the
language completely stopped! My grandmother spoke it fluently, my cousin's
grandmother spoke it fluently. And 2 generations of a gap doesn't mean it is
completely dead when you have these few last speakers still living. And what do
you say about those natives on Ni`ihau who have never ceased to speak it? How can
it be dead? I am certain you are getting this confused with what linguist actually
constructed was the mother language of all Polynesian languages.
>
>
> > However, some other families that I know of, especially on the island where I
> > am from there is a continuous flow of the language from one generation to
> > another. I don't think you understand fully what a dead language really is.
> > There are many minor languages mainly in Europe that is slowly dying out, but
> > that doesn't mean technically they are already dead just because the majority
> > of the speakers are above the 50 year old range. Hawaiian has never died. I
> > gave you the example of one particular island. That island is called
> > Ni`ihau. On that island, unlike the rest of the islands, Hawaiian is their
> > first language, then English. The other islands use English as the main
> > language, but in reality it is pidgin English, not proper English. On
> > Ni`ihau they don't speak pidgin. So this is proof that the language has
> > never died. Just because they teach it at school doesn't mean that there was
> > a sign that it died. And it if it, for how long was it dead?
> >
> What you have written is also in the survey, but
> it was not taken into account (I don't know-I
> think because non-natives aren't allowed). Knowing
> and speaking is two different things now. I
> understand Ilocano, but I can only speak the
> curses!
>
True, but I'm talking about speaking it. Conversing in the language. I think it
was back in the late 60's or early 70's when they realized that there were about
less than 10% of the population who spoke Hawaiian as a first language. That was
over 30 years ago. In the last decade that amount has increased significally due
to the immersion schools taught by native Hawaiian speakers and by cultural pride.
In 1990 (I think it was that year) Govern Ben Cayetano proclaimed that year the
year of the Hawaiian where the Hawaiian language was praised for coming back. It
is an official language of the state.
As for Ilocano, I would say the same thing. Many immigrants did not pass this
dialect down in Hawai`i. But I wouldn't say that the language is dead in Hawai`i.
Many of those old people still live. My cousin married into an Ilokano family.
Her mother in law still speaks it with her friends. I'm positive (if I remember
correctly) that her mother in law does not speak Tagalog. Would you consider that
dead? While her children might be able to understand it, they don't speak it,
don't converse in it. It's the same with the Hawaiian language. So it's not dead.
I thought I mentioned this problem once before in here, about the fact that why is
it that they try to minimize the influence of foreign languages....mainly Engl. in
Tagalog, but I was shot down! *L* I figure France has their language police, in
Hawai`i they have their committee where they come up strategically with new
vocabulary for the ever changing world, mainly with technology. But with Tagalog
it is literally Taglish which is why many non-Tagalog speakers say, "Oh yeah I
heard them speaking Filipino and I could understand a little of what they said"
especially Spanish speaking people. why? Because of their use of Engl. & Spanish
words.
Many years ago I heard my co-workers speaking Tagalog and all of a sudden out of
the dialogue I heard "chicken". I interrupted them and asked why he (my co-worker
Alex) used that word in Engl. Alex replied that he wasn't sure, that it was
easier. Because I told him about what we speak back hom and one word that my dad
and the rest of my family might use in Filipino is "manok". I told him I don't see
"chicken" being any easier than "manok" since they both have 2 syllables. :-)
tansong isda
Why?
I mentioned about Hawaiian language to one and one
actually told me about this, of w/c I already
know. No one laughed.
tansong isda
>
>
> Not from a linguistic point. There's only one. But if you look at it through a
> regular person's point of view, it might be viewed as dead basing solely on the
> fact that it's not used conversationally.
>
it is no longer dynamic. This is the academic
terminology. I have been corrected so many times
so I'm telling you.
> I don't speak it fluently, but just because it was banned that doesn't mean the
> language completely stopped! My grandmother spoke it fluently, my cousin's
> grandmother spoke it fluently. And 2 generations of a gap doesn't mean it is
> completely dead when you have these few last speakers still living. And what do
> you say about those natives on Ni`ihau who have never ceased to speak it? How can
> it be dead? I am certain you are getting this confused with what linguist actually
> constructed was the mother language of all Polynesian languages.
>
This is another academic terminology, fluency is
considered when they say non-use, I am not a
linguist, but if you want, I can cross-post this
so we can evaluate what the actual "academic"
position on this. I am not getting confused. Lets
us not confuse ourselves here, you are in a way
proving my point. This is why I asked if there is
fluency in your speaking the language.
>
> True, but I'm talking about speaking it. Conversing in the language. I think it
> was back in the late 60's or early 70's when they realized that there were about
> less than 10% of the population who spoke Hawaiian as a first language. That was
> over 30 years ago. In the last decade that amount has increased significally due
> to the immersion schools taught by native Hawaiian speakers and by cultural pride.
> In 1990 (I think it was that year) Govern Ben Cayetano proclaimed that year the
> year of the Hawaiian where the Hawaiian language was praised for coming back. It
> is an official language of the state.
>
> As for Ilocano, I would say the same thing. Many immigrants did not pass this
> dialect down in Hawai`i. But I wouldn't say that the language is dead in Hawai`i.
> Many of those old people still live. My cousin married into an Ilokano family.
> Her mother in law still speaks it with her friends. I'm positive (if I remember
> correctly) that her mother in law does not speak Tagalog. Would you consider that
> dead? While her children might be able to understand it, they don't speak it,
> don't converse in it. It's the same with the Hawaiian language. So it's not dead.
>
There you go, I agreed with you then and I agree
with you now!
It has nothing to do with being a "Language
purist" but, I think Filipinos have to instigate
some kind of "real world" chnages in the language,
I remember someone posted salumpuwit as chair as
terrible and it is, because there is a Tagalog
word for chair or silya...my wife uses it, she's a
traditionalist in speaking the language. Altho'
sometimes I think she just invents the word. Then,
I ask my mother and she says my wife is correct,
why most of the Tagalog words aren't used in
Manila, I don't know.
I think chicken is a funny word, I don't use it
speaking with Tagalog co-workers. Come to think of
it, I think English is a funny language....
For example; Why do they say "I am going to "take"
a crap", where or why are they taking this 'crap'
and what are they going to do with it when they
take it somewhere?
Any Filipino language would be better in
describing this action. It would be accurate!
tansong isda
>
> tansong isda wrote:
>
> > > the origin on that one though. :-)
> > >
> > That's Japanese.
>
> Oh, I thought so. Sounded Japanese. *L*
But the addition of the hyphenated giri is typical
Pokynesian, and Filipino as well.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tagalog, but I was shot down! *L* I figure France has their language
> police, in Hawai`i they have their committee where they come up
> strategically
> with new
Heh.... France has L'Académie de la langue française... It's Québec who
has the Language Police (and also L'Office de la langue française)...
And it's a big mess in Québec.... If there is English on a sign, the
French has to be 2 times bigger and more colorful.... And there are
usually ordinary citizens who complain to the Minister of the French
language..... Crazy, eh??? They even took out all the English signs in
a Hospital that serves mostly Anglophones.
At one time someone complained about Chinatown's hanzi (characters) in
downtown Montréal! ... rofl :) But the case was thrown out since
Chinese wasn't a threat.
Despite all this, I still wanna go to Québec.. heh
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
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el...@westworld.com
"Penny Richter" <penny_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have always felt, and still do feel, that Filipinos who don't speak
some
> language spoken on the islands are in fact, less Filipino than those
who do.
As an American-born Filipino with a limited command of Tagalog (and
even a more limited command of Bisayan), I understand both sides of the
topic.
It really depends. Can you blame, say a 100% pure-blooded Filipino
whose parents move to, say Sweden, and not know Tagalog? Is there a use
for Tagalog for that person in Sweden? Do you honestly think that
person has "sold out their culture" just because they know how to speak
Swedish and not Tagalog ? (IMHO, the phrase "sell out" has been badly
misconstrued; it only applies to people who have profited from their
intentional disingenuous attitude towards their own culture)
The whole concept of Filipinos not speaking their native language is a
relatively new one, within time, people will get over it. There are
Filipinos not just in the US and Canada, but in the Middle East,
Germany, Australia and other countries now. Transpose that to other
immigrant cultures which have seated themselves in the US, cultures
that we consider "white" and "mainstream" today but who at one time,
also suffered from discrimination, mainly Italian-Americans and Irish-
Americans.
There are many people who identify themselves as "Irish" but don't
speak a word of Gaelic.
The real factor is identity. the fact that a person is willing to
identify themselves with the Philippine culture, no matter what
language they speak, is good enough. If you want to talk about this so-
called "selling-out," point the finger on the Filipinos who don't even
want to admit they are Filipino...
E
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Believe me, you don't want to know how much corruption is involved w/
all the other languages spoken there. Mispronunciation would be one of
them. Esp. w/ Hawaiian (for those who don't speak the lang.) and
Portuguese is another. And of course Japanese and Filipino would be the
most common along w/ Hawn.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
newsgroup for about a year now. In any case, I never had a problem w/ anyone.
I may feel strongly about some of my points and make sure I get them across, but
no one else seems to have a problem, esp. w/ whom that message was directed to.
YOU ARE the only one w/ the problem. But I understand if you're not accostumed
to intellectual discussions while providing your point of view. But don't sweat
it, you'll get use to it.
Penny Richter wrote:
> Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> message news:37B0DA5F...@earthlink.net...
>
> > I think you're either new to newsgroups, read things in a different way or
> just
> > unable to have a good point to prove. Seems like you're the only person
> who
> > reacted to this question. If you don't like it, then too bad. If you
> have
> > nothing good to say, that's okay.
>
Azmik
Are you the same brother who is down with the MTA Red Line. If you are
whasup if you aren't whasup!
Ingat,
AZ
<el...@westworld.com> wrote in message news:7osu77$usl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
R M Abacan
"Gili-Gili" is a Filipino concoted dish common to old timer Pinoys, but
mostly to Filipino Stewards of the old US Navy Rating. It's a Filipino dish
made from chicken neck and gizzards that came with each whole chicken
purchased. In the old days, food rations of Filipino and Black Stewards are
commuted to the wardroom or Officers' Mess. The more money they save the
mess treasury, the better their evaluation is for the period. So to save
money, most Senior Filipino Stewards would feed nothing but the neck and
gizzards to the Filipinos and leave the whole chicken for the officers, thus
saving money. Neck is Liig or Leeg, so to give the dish a more favorable or
sarcastic name, the old timers called them "Gili-Gili", or the inverted
Liig-liig. The dish tasted good and became popular, and later on had many
derivatives. We had fish "Gili-gili", which is fish heads and rice.
Earpes2
The sad thing about filipinos about language that they prefer their children to
speak better in English than tagalog which is sad and embarassing. when you
hear about chinese, japanese, hispanic, korean , they teach their children
where they from and also the language.
>Hi Azmik,
>
>Now you know I can definitely relate. Yet these people who ask that question
>have no idea. Yeah, I can always learn "a" Filipino language/dialect, but
>should I learn Tagalog just because they speak it? Speaking the language of
>my
>ancestors is one thing, speaking Tagalog is another.
>
>Like you, I have some Ilokano blood in me. My maternal grandfather spoke
>Ilokano. Whether he could speak Tagalog or not I do not know for sure, but
>since he left the Phils. in 1934, I'll safely guess that the answer is "no".
>My
>paternal grandparents came from the Visayas, so naturally they spoke Cebuano.
>My grandmother (paternal) could not speak Engl., but could speak Spanish
>(from
>what I was told). Her husband was able to speak Engl., and possibly other
>dialects since he would recruit Filipino laborers.
>
>My grandparents grew up in a different time where English was pushed to the
>top
>as the medium of speech. Being in Hawai`i did not help either especially
>with
>the influx of immigrants in unequal portions when it comes to the sex of the
>immigrants. Which explains why my other grandfather married a native of
>Hawai`i. So in turn, we do no learn the language of their country.
>
>But you are right, it doesn't make us any less Filipino. My grandmother
>passed
>on many, many traditions which we still carry on and from what I found out
>many
>Cebuanos today do not really do. I'm talking things like using herbs while
>massaging and other things which might seem primitive to even Filipinos
>today.
>Although in our pidgin dialect we do use many Cebuano words along with a few
>Ilokano words and many Hawaiian words, that's still some of the culture being
>passed down. But given the situation with all the immigrants being converged
>in
>one place, Filipinos should take it into consideration how or what our
>ancestors
>went through during those times. Now, my entire family regrets not speaking
>Cebuano, and we have 5 generations born in the U.S. My aunt who was the
>eldest
>child was the only one who could speak Cebuano along w/ my grandparents.
>Everyone else could not speak it, but could definitely understand it.
>
>Kalani
Chris S.
ear...@cs.com (Earpes2) wrote:
> The sad thing about filipinos about language that they prefer their
> children to speak better in English than tagalog which is sad and
> embarassing. when you hear about chinese, japanese, hispanic,
> korean, they teach their children where they from and also the
> language.
I think the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Hispanic children know their
respective language is because that's all that their parents speak. The
kids are spoken to in those languages by their parents. That's why they
know them.
(Most) Filipino parents on the other hand have had much exposure to
English in the Philippines that's why they speak to their children in
English when they're in the US.. in addition to a Filipino... My parents
spoke to me in both..
My observation anyway..
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
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Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
have heard about it. There are many cognates w/ Samoan, but that's how it
has always been. You can tell by looking at these chants. None of these
chants were changed. Besides, lexically Samoan & Hawn. aren't as similar as
other eastern Polynesian languages. That's because our ancestors originally
came from that area (the west) and slowly moved towards the east before
branch out to as far as Hawai`i, Aotearoa and Rapa Nui.
I guarantee you, if you were to ask someone who grew up in HI and don't
speak Hawn, I'm sure they'd tell you the same. Maybe a good example would
be my dad. Of course he's Filipino born & raised there. Maybe I should
just ask him and see how he reacts. But if something like this did
happened, especially in this politically correct world and what happened w/
the 100th anniversary of the overthrow of the Hawn. government, we ALL would
have heard about this by now. The only difference that I know that would
separate my speech from my grandmother's is that I don't speak it as well as
she did. And that she'd probably use more Engl. words when it comes to
modern technology, whereas I would use the new coined words. The only diff.
that would differentiate my speech from my grandmother's grandfather's would
be the pronunciation between the "k" and "l" sounds. Oh yeah, I'm not good
in chanting yet & I'm sure with my ancestors chanting was 2nd nature. And
that I know many chiefly genealogies whereas my ancestors weren't allowed to
know them.
Here's a good site w/ some explanation.
http://www.olelo.hawaii.edu/OP/information/uaikeanei.html
If you click on the first link on that page, he'll tell you about "if" the
language were to become extinct...as in the lang. of the Etruscans. A dead
lang. By the way, you need RealPlayer.
tansong isda wrote:
> Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
> >
> > tansong isda wrote:
> >
> > >
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
bgl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> i really like all these posts you're writing about languages etc. very
> interesting. nice modest tone too--something you don't always find in
> newsgroups. one thing though, it's this statement:
>
> > With the death of a language the culture begins to follow.
>
> don't get me wrong i'm all for preserving languages, be it hawaiian or
> whatever, and language is no doubt part of culture but i don't know
> that the death of a language is necessarily a precursor to cultural
> demise. too many examples that suggest otherwise. further, language is
> pretty fluid and dynamic, constantly evolving over time, and as such,
> how can it really be a cultural touchstone that determines a culture's
> survivability? some of the non tagalog speaking members of this very
> newsgroup have argued as much. these arguments often bring disdain from
> ng members that *do* speak tagalog. anyway, maybe some people here can
> expand on the question of language as a vital and essential component
> of culture and whether or not the two are inexorably linked. i don't
> think they are, but then again i'm usually wrong about most everything.
> i picked the knicks in the nba finals. duh.
Good point. I felt exactly that when my Spanish teacher said that. Why?
Because way back when there weren't many young Hawn. speakers I could have
given her a perfect example. That even though there weren't many speakers
of Hawn., that still the tradition continues. We have many of the names,
we use Hawn. names in street signs, names of places, we have the hula, plus
a whole lot of other things connected to the Hawn. culture. So that was a
perfect example of how even though the language was not in full use that
the culture STILL could survive.
But then I realized in recent years after we have a new generation of young
speakers who speak Hawn. as their first (I guess you could say that now)
language since they learn in Hawn. first then is introduced in school to
Engl. grammar at the 5th grade level, that w/o the knowledge of the Hawn.
lang., it becomes very, very difficult to understand the culture, to see it
from a Hawaiian's point of view. I guess an example would be all these
Hawn. songs we've been singing for years! Many beautiful songs. Majority
of the people like the songs, but have no clue what it means. And when it
is translated, to them it's just "beautiful" because it talks about the
beauty of the land, the mountains, sea, etc. I guess you could view that
as enough culture. However, unless you really knew the language, you would
be able to understand what the song is about.
In a Hawaiian's eye, they would praise the beauty of the land. Why?
Because we know that we have to take care of the land in order for it to be
beautiful and continue to make us survive. So that's what the literal
meaning of the lyrics are. Many people do not see the metaphoric meanings
in these songs. Sometimes, I'd say the songs are rated "R". *L* But
basically when songs talk about the beauty of a cliff, how majestic it is,
they are also referring to someone's beauty. That a person can be so
handsome/beautiful that they (like a cliff) attracts attention. Many songs
talk about certain types of flowers or birds because of their scent or
beauty. Usually what the song really means is comparing their lovers to a
flower or a bird and in some cases (if you're really lucky) you might have
the same name of a bird or flower for a person's name. As in one song
where they translated as "my lover, my friend" for "Kaipo" or actually
written "ka ipo" which means "the sweetheart/lover". The person who wrote
this particular song wrote it for her husband whose name is Kaipo, which
explains why it was written as Kaipo and not ka ipo.
So to me, things such as that is where language would play a key role in
the survival of the culture.
How about that writing in the Phils. Isn't it called albita? I wouldn't
say that it's entirely lost, but obviously our ancestors use to write in
that way? (I'm not too familiar on this subject) To lose something like
that, like a language is a part of the culture. And it can happen as a
chain reaction, one thing leads to another till you have very little of the
culture left. So I think that's what my Spanish teacher meant, that to
lose a language, you slowly lose the culture.
Kalani
tansong isda
>
> *L* I don't know why I did that. I guess I saw it written like that.
> Believe me, you don't want to know how much corruption is involved w/
> all the other languages spoken there. Mispronunciation would be one of
> them. Esp. w/ Hawaiian (for those who don't speak the lang.) and
> Portuguese is another. And of course Japanese and Filipino would be the
> most common along w/ Hawn.
>
>
> > Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy wrote:
> > >
> > > tansong isda wrote:
> > >
> > > > > the origin on that one though. :-)
> > > > >
> > > > That's Japanese.
> > >
> > > Oh, I thought so. Sounded Japanese. *L*
> >
> > But the addition of the hyphenated giri is typical
> > Pokynesian, and Filipino as well.
Maybe, to make native sounding. Filipinos does
this with adopted foreign words, I imagine
Polynesians does the same.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> chants were changed. Besides, lexically Samoan & Hawn. aren't as
> similar as other eastern Polynesian languages. That's because our
> ancestors originally came from that area (the west) and slowly moved
> towards the east before branch out to as far as Hawai`i, Aotearoa and
> Rapa Nui.
It sounds true that Samoan would play a role in the development of
Hawaiian... Not to flame Tansong, but maybe we should ask the linguists
in sci.lang if such a thing occured..... I was reading a Samoan
dictionary, and it had similar to Hawaiian... a`u ... `oe... they even
have the same `o that they use to mark the subject.. So probably it
happened... but... heh
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
You are going to get it! *L*
I hope everyone understands that linguist studied the Polynesian languages
because they were amazed at the similarities they shared regardless of their
distances between each other. Samoan isn't as similar to Hawn. as does
Marquesan or Tahitian. They say that Hawn. is actually a Marquesaic lang.
as oppose to a Tahitic (sp?) one. Maori is considered a Tahitic lang.
http://leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu/org/pvs/hivalanguage.html
This link tells you a good history of the Hawn. lang. Read the 2nd
paragraph.
http://www.readingonline.org/electronic/hawaii/briefhi.htm
Another link that briefly talks about a revitilization program:
http://coffeetimes.com/language.htm
Here's one about Capt. Cook's log and the spelling differences, mainly
because these people spelled according to what they heard, which is
different how we pronounce it today in normal speech.
http://www.hula.net/~onipaa/sandwich.html
And a link about the langs. spoken in the U.S., which can take you to other
links on specifications on diff. langs.
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/USA.html
You'll find as I said in another posting many cognates in Polynesian langs.
`Oe for you (singular) is not only the same in Hawn. & Samoan but also
Tahitian and I think also in Marquesan & Tuamotuan. Then you have some that
are similar, but not quite the same.
man
tangata - Maori
kanaka - Hawn
ta`ata - Tahitian
enata - Marquesian
house
hale - Hawn
fare - Tahitian
fale - Samoan
chief
ali`i - Hawn
ari`i - Tahitian
ariki - Maori & Rapa Nui
And I'll say it again, if they reconstructed the Hawn. lang, then you think
we (all citizens of Hawai`i) would know about it? Especially the older
ones. *L* In any case, aside from not making sense that even though some
families have passed the lang. down from generation to generation AND that
we can converse in the same lang., as well as all the inhabitants of the
island of Ni`ihau have always spoken Hawn. since the beginning - prior to
European contact, why on earth would you see all of us so crazy about
learning a language or promoting a lang. that had died and was totally made
up from other langs? YET, it doesn't make sense for us to be passing down
very, very old chants handed down from hundreds of generations yet able to
comprehend them because it is chanted in the same lang. that we now speak?
Just doesn't make sense.
Okay Mr. Isda & Chris, I had my say. *L*
aloha `ole,
Kalani
derm...@my-deja.com
>
[SNIPPERZ]
> >
> > But seriously, Filipinos who don't even manage to pick up the
simplest
> > expressions really earn my disdain.
>
> This, I will not argue. They could learn some, but it depends on how
much
> you're talking about. How much should they learn?
>
I know enough to cuss, order a beer (San Miguel, of course), and to ask
where the bathroom is. Do I still earn your disdain?
DERMALIN
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <19990811200207...@ng-bk1.news.cs.com>,
> ear...@cs.com (Earpes2) wrote:
>
> > The sad thing about filipinos about language that they prefer their
> > children to speak better in English than tagalog which is sad and
> > embarassing. when you hear about chinese, japanese, hispanic,
> > korean, they teach their children where they from and also the
> > language.
Ok this part I understand, it makes sense to me.
>
>
>
> (Most) Filipino parents on the other hand have had much exposure to
> English in the Philippines that's why they speak to their children in
> English when they're in the US.. in addition to a Filipino... My parents
> spoke to me in both..
>
> My observation anyway..
But, in the situation w/ my grandparents, only one of them spoke Engl., and
one of them spoke Engl. to his children. My aunt who was the eldest child
was the only one who could speak Cebuano in her generation. By the time my
uncle who is the youngest was born, there was only one person speaking
Cebuano to him and that was his mother. Which explains why he didn't
understand it too well compared to me. When I was growing up my grandmother
spoke Cebuano while my father spoke Engl., or more specifically pidgin. So
I had 50% - 50%. But to me, the environment and the mentality of the
parents & society plays a big role.
>
>
> --Chris
>
> --
> ...Mabuhay...
> Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
>
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
el...@westworld.com wrote:
> In article <37ae...@news2.foxinternet.net>,
> "Penny Richter" <penny_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I have always felt, and still do feel, that Filipinos who don't speak
> some
> > language spoken on the islands are in fact, less Filipino than those
> who do.
>
> As an American-born Filipino with a limited command of Tagalog (and
> even a more limited command of Bisayan), I understand both sides of the
> topic.
>
> It really depends. Can you blame, say a 100% pure-blooded Filipino
> whose parents move to, say Sweden, and not know Tagalog? Is there a use
> for Tagalog for that person in Sweden? Do you honestly think that
> person has "sold out their culture" just because they know how to speak
> Swedish and not Tagalog ? (IMHO, the phrase "sell out" has been badly
> misconstrued; it only applies to people who have profited from their
> intentional disingenuous attitude towards their own culture)
This is true, but it's not just about practical use and pride. As in the
example I gave previously, it also depends on the environment & society.
My grandparents like many other immigrants were discouraged from speaking
their own language. They were somewhat forced to mix or interact w/ other
immigrants and ended up intermarrying due to the unequal amt. of male &
female immigrants. One example is that I like many other Hawaiians had a
chinese ancestor. There were hardly any female chinese immigrants. So
what happened? The Chinese ended up taking Hawaiian women and in turn they
learned the vernacular (at that time was Hawaiian), so it might be okay to
pass on their Chinese dialect, but wouldn't be that practical. At the same
time English was being dominated, then you had all these other immigrants
who spoke different languages coming in waves during different times. And
the same thing happened with them, with intermarriage and learning another
language. So in turn, their children don't speak the language of their
parents.
>
>
> The whole concept of Filipinos not speaking their native language is a
> relatively new one, within time, people will get over it. There are
> Filipinos not just in the US and Canada, but in the Middle East,
> Germany, Australia and other countries now. Transpose that to other
> immigrant cultures which have seated themselves in the US, cultures
> that we consider "white" and "mainstream" today but who at one time,
> also suffered from discrimination, mainly Italian-Americans and Irish-
> Americans.
But it's not just limited to Filipinos. Many 2nd & 3rd generation Mexicans
have experienced the same thing, Italians, portuguese, German, Dutch,
Jewish, Polish, Czech and a whole bunch of others.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> house
> hale - Hawn
> fare - Tahitian
> fale - Samoan
In Bicol it's "balay"... Lots of sound changes from that one.. ;)
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
have it bookmarked anymore since my computer crashed over a month ago.
tansong isda
>
> There is a website where they compared many Austronesian langs. I don't
> have it bookmarked anymore since my computer crashed over a month ago.
>
> "Chris S." wrote:
>
Hows about this for a start:
http://alibataatpandesal.com/masaka.html
My h/dsk crashed as well, so I lost the other
bookmarked url's concerning this. But I was able
to recover this one.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
is great, thanks.
Azmik
Tagalog: MATA
Samoan: MATA
Five:
Tagalog: LIMA
Samoan: LIMA
AZ
tansong isda
Counting is very similar among all Malays,
Polynesian people especially number five....can
you imagine that!!
Azmik
tansong isda <bab...@dipaparito.ito> wrote in message
news:37B4FA9C...@dipaparito.ito...
word similarities.
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There is a website where they compared many Austronesian langs. I
> don't have it bookmarked anymore since my computer crashed over a
> month ago.
I think you may talking about Nestor Palugod Enriquez's web site.. I
was on his site a couple of days ago, however I don't recall
if balay/hale/fale thing is up there or not.
The URL is:
http://members.xoom.com/philam2000
Chris S.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> one of them spoke Engl. to his children. My aunt who was the eldest
> child was the only one who could speak Cebuano in her generation. By
*kind of* the same situation with my dad's aunts and uncles on his dad's
side of the family.... The oldest sister, my great aunt, was raised in
Cebu, my great-grandfather's home island.. But then they moved to Luzon
and they all grew up speaking Tagalog... I think the youngest one
doesn't speak any Cebuano at all while the middle have knowledge of
Cebuano in varying degrees of fluency.
> I had 50% - 50%. But to me, the environment and the mentality of the
> parents & society plays a big role.
Can't disagree with that, I think
--Chris
PS - Did you ever get my genealogy question to you? ;)
Chris S.
"Azmik" <trint...@juno.com> wrote:
> > Counting is very similar among all Malays,
> > Polynesian people especially number five....can
> > you imagine that!!
And Polynesians too.. (remember that thread? hehe)...
Anyway, the numbers in a lot of Malayo-Polynesian (Austronesian) numbers
can be found in Mark Rosenfelder's metaverse at:
http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
You're right, 5 seems to be the same or similar (sound changes) in most
of these languages... then it seems like it's 8 (Samoan = Valu...
Tagalog = Walo)... Then 6.... (ono.. anim..) or 2...
> ----I'm sure most Samoans and Filipinos don't know about these and
> other word similarities.
I plan on making a list of similar Tagalog (or other Filipino langs.)
and Hawaiian words.. Since I have access to a Hawaiian dictionary, I
thought I'd take on the task.. heh. It's the list that's like the one
found on Nestor Enriquez's and Alibataatpandesal...
--Chris
mata...@my-deja.com
It's not just that kind of mentality that divides us. It's also
that I'm-better kind of attitude.
I've always got the impression that to be a Filipino, you've got to
be good in both English and Tagalog. You don't speak good english, you
fail your english, your bound to be ridiculed. Poor spelling ? huh!
they laugh at you. And if you do speak good English you're bound to be
a show off, shunning your own dialect.
About not being to speak Ilocano, Ilonggo, or any of the other
dialects, I don't know about that. I do know some of them are
sometimes laughed at.
In article <OSYzdQg4#GA.308@cpmsnbbsa03>,
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Azmik wrote:
>
> > Counting is very similar among all Malays,
> > Polynesian people especially number five....can
> > you imagine that!!
> ----I'm sure most Samoans and Filipinos don't know about these and other
> word similarities.
I'm guessing no, although I knew it for years now. But that's because I like
languages. Once upon a time "eye" in Hawn. was known as "mata". But due to
the language change & the writing system, it is now known as "maka". Five
would be the same in Hawn. There are many other similar words, but if you
understand the migration of the island peoples, especially Polynesians then
will you understand why Hawaiian is similiar to Marquesan & Tahitian and why
these languages are similar to Samoan & Tongan and to other languages towards
the Malay peninsula.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Okay, but "thank you" as far as I know are different.
Hawn. - mahalo
Samoan - fa`afetai
Tahitian - maururu
Tagalog - salamat
*L*
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <e8SbNWh5#GA.340@cpmsnbbsa03>,
> "Azmik" <trint...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > Counting is very similar among all Malays,
> > > Polynesian people especially number five....can
> > > you imagine that!!
>
> And Polynesians too.. (remember that thread? hehe)...
>
> Anyway, the numbers in a lot of Malayo-Polynesian (Austronesian) numbers
> can be found in Mark Rosenfelder's metaverse at:
>
> http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
>
> You're right, 5 seems to be the same or similar (sound changes) in most
> of these languages... then it seems like it's 8 (Samoan = Valu...
> Tagalog = Walo)... Then 6.... (ono.. anim..) or 2...
>
> > ----I'm sure most Samoans and Filipinos don't know about these and
> > other word similarities.
>
> I plan on making a list of similar Tagalog (or other Filipino langs.)
> and Hawaiian words.. Since I have access to a Hawaiian dictionary, I
> thought I'd take on the task.. heh. It's the list that's like the one
> found on Nestor Enriquez's and Alibataatpandesal...
>
> --Chris
>
> --
> ...Mabuhay...
> Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
>
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
each e-mail I got a message saying it couldn't deliver it to you but will
try for 5 days and not to re-send it.
So, I forgot what is it you asked, but ask me again in here while it's safe
to respond to each other. *L* By the way, today I'm finally going back to
the LDS Family Hist. Ctr. to first look for my Hawn. side a bit more then do
a couple more on my Cebuano side again in order to verify how distant cousin
of mine really are. Met them for the first time this past summer, although
my dad them always knew them, but never bothered to tell me about them
KNOWING I have been working on the genealogy. Only now everyone's curious
as to how exactly we're related.
In any case, you already know my e-mail (don't reply to this one) it is:
motu...@earthlink.net
But I can't reply to your "dejanews" e-mail. So either ask me here or
e-mail me w/ another e-mail, okay.
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <37B40794...@earthlink.net>,
> Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy <moku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > one of them spoke Engl. to his children. My aunt who was the eldest
> > child was the only one who could speak Cebuano in her generation. By
>
> *kind of* the same situation with my dad's aunts and uncles on his dad's
> side of the family.... The oldest sister, my great aunt, was raised in
> Cebu, my great-grandfather's home island.. But then they moved to Luzon
> and they all grew up speaking Tagalog... I think the youngest one
> doesn't speak any Cebuano at all while the middle have knowledge of
> Cebuano in varying degrees of fluency.
>
> > I had 50% - 50%. But to me, the environment and the mentality of the
> > parents & society plays a big role.
>
> Can't disagree with that, I think
>
> --Chris
>
> PS - Did you ever get my genealogy question to you? ;)
>
Azmik
AZ
Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7p3d0v$d7n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <e8SbNWh5#GA.340@cpmsnbbsa03>,
> "Azmik" <trint...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > Counting is very similar among all Malays,
> > > Polynesian people especially number five....can
> > > you imagine that!!
>
> And Polynesians too.. (remember that thread? hehe)...
>
> Anyway, the numbers in a lot of Malayo-Polynesian (Austronesian) numbers
> can be found in Mark Rosenfelder's metaverse at:
>
> http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
>
>
> You're right, 5 seems to be the same or similar (sound changes) in most
> of these languages... then it seems like it's 8 (Samoan = Valu...
> Tagalog = Walo)... Then 6.... (ono.. anim..) or 2...
>
> > ----I'm sure most Samoans and Filipinos don't know about these and
> > other word similarities.
>
> I plan on making a list of similar Tagalog (or other Filipino langs.)
> and Hawaiian words.. Since I have access to a Hawaiian dictionary, I
> thought I'd take on the task.. heh. It's the list that's like the one
> found on Nestor Enriquez's and Alibataatpandesal...
>
> --Chris
>
>
>
Azmik
This reminds me of my Filipino friend in college. He was heavily influenced
by his black friends. He took more of a political view of things. For
example, he blames the United States for ALL of the Philippines problems/is
against every conflict that the United States has ever been in. Not only
that but:
He says that the Tagalog idea of "BA" or "Bathala" is related to the
Egyptian "RA"
Give me a friggin break!
I think he be hanging around too many itim to make that kind of wild
assumption. EGYPT AND LUZON? I know there are
Malayo-Polynesian/Austronesian peoples in Madagascar (Malagasy, Merina,
etc.) but EGYPT? This is the same guy who said that Filipinos in Seattle
weren't "aware".
Peace,
AZMIK the Luzon-Egypt Missing Link
tansong isda
It is possible that Filipinos or its ancestors
colonized Egypt....hehehehe...why not?
Tinig na Iba
Azmik wrote in message ...
>I think he be hanging around too many itim to make that kind of wild
>assumption. EGYPT AND LUZON? I know there are
>Malayo-Polynesian/Austronesian peoples in Madagascar (Malagasy, Merina,
>etc.) but EGYPT? This is the same guy who said that Filipinos in Seattle
>weren't "aware".
Actually, he was probably hanging around the *wrong* itim. . . I couldn't
even agree with him. There couldn't be a possible connection between two
totally different religious philosophies and cultures. The next thing I'll
probably hear is that a couple of the apostles of Jesus traveling to the
Philippines after His ascension.
Maybe that guy *isn't* aware himself. . .
- Tinig na Iba
Azmik
whassup with all these "Filipino American Awareness" folks who like talk big
and look good.
AZ
Tinig na Iba <one-...@pagod.ako> wrote in message
news:7p4nmq$2log$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Chris S.
PNW? That's about to change in the next 2 or 3 months... My family and I
are moving down to Cali! I am the envy of all my PNW acquaintances!
mouayhaha.. ;)
Chris S.
> He says that the Tagalog idea of "BA" or "Bathala" is related to the
> Egyptian "RA"
Actually, the "Bathala" is related to Sanskrit (India)'s
"Bhathara"<sp?>.
Hmm.... maybe araw (sun/day) could be related to "Ra"... but that's a
wild guess.. hehe
> etc.) but EGYPT? This is the same guy who said that Filipinos in
> Seattle weren't "aware".
Weren't aware of what? the rain??? haha..
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <#sMBq2m5#GA.274@cpmsnbbsa02>,
> "Azmik" <trint...@juno.com> wrote:
> > More power to you Chris S. fellow Pacific Northwest brother!
>
> PNW? That's about to change in the next 2 or 3 months... My family and I
> are moving down to Cali! I am the envy of all my PNW acquaintances!
> mouayhaha.. ;)
>
Azmik
> In article <eI6375m5#GA.452@cpmsnbbsa02>,
>
> > He says that the Tagalog idea of "BA" or "Bathala" is related to the
> > Egyptian "RA"
>
> Actually, the "Bathala" is related to Sanskrit (India)'s
> "Bhathara"<sp?>.
to me
> Hmm.... maybe araw (sun/day) could be related to "Ra"... but that's a
> wild guess.. hehe
> > etc.) but EGYPT? This is the same guy who said that Filipinos in
> > Seattle weren't "aware".
> Weren't aware of what? the rain??? haha..
>
> --Chris
--------Aware of their own history....bullshit we gots Rizal Bridge, we gots
Fred Cordova, we gots the Filipino American National Historical Society,
etc.
Later,
AZMIK good luck to you in CA Chris S
Chris S.
Frisco! Actually about an hour east of it... And somewhat west of
Stockton.... ever heard of Tracy? if things go well, that's where we're
going to live... we have some relatives over there who didn't really
care for the Hayward-Union City-Fremont scene (where the rest of them
live) since the crime is bad...
--Chris
Chris S.
"Azmik" <trint...@juno.com> wrote:
> --------Aware of their own history....bullshit we gots Rizal Bridge,
> we gots Fred Cordova, we gots the Filipino American National
> Historical Society, etc.
When we were still "new" to Washington (1995-1996), we toured Seattle...
we got lost... and suddenly we found ourselves on Rizal bridge! We were
really really surprised... But we were more surprised when we stumbled
upon Seward park full of Filipinos and food and booths and music! That
was Pista Sa Nayon and each year we forget to go or we get lost... I
can't believe we forgot it this year.... <sniff>..
Also, our library has books on Filipino history in Seattle... they were
really here a long time... 1920's!
--Chris
> AZMIK good luck to you in CA Chris S
Tks. :)
Worldboy
all Malay Langauges liek indonesian and Malaysian.
Some words could be traced to arabic for Luzon was a Muslim outpost.
The many years of Spanish occupation integrated Tagalog with spanish.
The Spans failed to teach all Spanish because they might all unite and
throw them out (done).
many simple words are spanish.
Then many years of american occupation left us many English words.
All who went to atleast High School know english or know enough words to
make a point. No one now really speaks direct tagalog- it is now very
blended with american stuff.
Languages progress
although in writing
Isang *something* sounds all grand and stuff but in speach its easier to
say
ang *something*
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Worldboy wrote:
>
>
> Languages progress
> although in writing
>
> Isang *something* sounds all grand and stuff but in speach its easier to
> say
> ang *something*
Now that to me is just laziness.
Chris S.
Worldboy <r_wor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Isang *something* sounds all grand and stuff but in speach its easier
> to say ang *something*
Umm.... The meaning would be totally changed then.
"isang" is like an indefinite article... in English it's "a."
"ang" marks the topic of a sentence and is like the word "the."
The cat is blue.
A cat is blue.
The meanings aren't the same.
As in the words of the great JT... "na-gets mo ba?" :)
--Chris
Worldboy
So you completly talk in ye old english constantly
and reject the use of conjunctions like can't and stuff
because you see modern english and slang LAZY?
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
Worldboy wrote:
Modern English is different from Old English. That's a natural change
in the language that happened over time. French use to be different
also. As for slangs, that's another medium of speech usually used in
colloquial form OR among certain groups. It has nothing to do w/ being
lazy. From what the examples you gave me, they looked like it was
shortened. There's a difference between fast speech and shortening for
ease. Like in English we sometimes say "Watcha doin'" instead of "What
are you doing". It is actually shorter syllabically, but pronunciation
change also is present, so I wouldn't say that's laziness.
John William Allen
Bastos. And do people really sing down Singalong Street in Manila?
<derm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7ovoau$v6c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <37AF832B...@earthlink.net>,> > Penny Richter wrote:
> >
>
> [SNIPPERZ]
>
> > >
> > > But seriously, Filipinos who don't even manage to pick up the
> simplest
> > > expressions really earn my disdain.
> >
> > This, I will not argue. They could learn some, but it depends on how
> much
> > you're talking about. How much should they learn?
> >
>
> I know enough to cuss, order a beer (San Miguel, of course), and to ask
> where the bathroom is. Do I still earn your disdain?
>
> DERMALIN
Worldboy
but then how is Isang and Ang
any different from those examples?
Worldboy
I dunno.
Check the Washington Post in the Begginig of August.
Kalaninuiana`olekaumaiiluna Mondoy
pronunciation hasn't changed.
Worldboy
What is Honolulu City Lights by the Carpenters all about?