Fake Filipinos! Mga Peke!!!
Paula Angeles-Leiby
Admit it. You know people like this. I do. I can vouch for it. It's one
of my greatest peeves.
Scenario:
Filipino guy/gal goes to the States at an early age, let's say 13-16.
They stay here for a couple of years absorbing the culture,
assimiliating, acculturating by osmosis... Then s/he meets other Pinoys.
They say "hi" and "hello." Then they start having regular conversation.
Then Guy/Gal X who came here when s/he was 13-16 says "Sorry, but I
don't understand Tagalog anymore." And s/he never utters another Tagalog
word again.
All of us know that that is BOGUS. Even taken into account that they
might know another dialect than other Tagalog. We all know that the
cut-off for language acquisition is 13. (I took a "How to Teach ESL"
class and they theorized that the cut-off for forgetting/remembering
language is 13 years old.) Then why, say such an idiotic thing when
there are people out there that could get the 411 on you if they really
wanted to? Perhaps they can even tell by the hint of an accent in your
voice? Are people like Guy/Gal X ashamed that they speak Tagalog? Are
they ashamed that they are Filipino? (my theory)
I proudly tell people I'm bilingual. In fact, I know people who have
been here since they were 5 years old and can still speak Tagalog better
than I do (I tell them I'm insanely jealous of them.). Then bakit? Why?
Bakit nila itinatapon ang parte ng kanilang pagkatao na nagpapa-unique
sa kanila?
-- Paula
Pietro E Reyes, III
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353A181B...@nospam.techw.com>...
>Bakit nila itinatapon ang parte ng kanilang pagkatao na nagpapa-unique
>sa kanila?
Possible reasons in no particular order:
o They see no value or benefit in keeping alive that part of them that is
Filipino.
o They are ashamed of the part of them that is Filipino, especially in
relation to their non-ethnic (that possible?) peers.
o They have concluded that by shedding that part of them that is Filipino,
they become full fledged Americans (whatever that means).
o Ignorance, inexperience, short-sightedness, insecurity, a fragile belief
system, weak convictions, and other similar character weaknesses.
Gen Artemio Ricarte
Paula,
This is one of the basic social-science issues. Children of first
generation immigrants tend to frown on their parents ethnicity because they
do not want to experience (in general) their parents shame, treatment as a
second class citizen, etc. I say again, in general, because this doesn't
necessarily apply to everyone. But look around you and you'll see (at least
in the Bay Area) many Filipinos doing odds and ends job just to survive.
Children of these Filipinos (in general, again) tend to be the ones you are
describing below. On the other hand, children of successful Filipinos, in
general are not like that. Again, following basic social-science theories,
children of these children tend to do the opposite. They tend to express
new found pride of their parents and grandparents ethnicity. This is why
you see third generation Pinoys being more Pinoys than we are, and who are
more vocal about Pinoy issues than Pinoys born in the Philippines.
animator
>of my greatest peeves.
Too bad it's one of your pet peeves. You'll have to suffer it the rest of
your life if you don't overcome it. Hope it doesn't eat on you forever
cause, like you say, it's a fact.
>I proudly tell people I'm bilingual. In fact, I know people who have
>been here since they were 5 years old and can still speak Tagalog better
>than I do (I tell them I'm insanely jealous of them.). Then bakit? Why?
>Bakit nila itinatapon ang parte ng kanilang pagkatao na nagpapa-unique
>sa kanila?
>-- Paula
Well, be proud and content that it makes you feel unique. Do not forget
however, that a perrson who freely chooses to discount his ethnicity or his
original tongue is still unique in his ownself. Ang pagkatao ay hindi
na-aayon sa pag-gamit ng wikang Pilipino. Kanya-kanyan pag-kakaiba at
kanya-kanyan desisyon. Now, yang desisyon mo na ma-asar sa kapwa dahil sa
kanilang kaibahan sa iyo ang magbibigay lamang sa iyo ng sakit ng ulo. Live
and let live ika nga - be happy.
Paula Angeles-Leiby
animator wrote:
> Too bad it's one of your pet peeves. You'll have to suffer it the rest of
> your life if you don't overcome it. Hope it doesn't eat on you forever
> cause, like you say, it's a fact.
I just choose not to associate with people who play this "linguistic ignorance"
game. In fact, if I am about to be introduced to people who are like these by my
friends, they are given some form of warning about my opinions about it. They
don't get introduced to me anymore. I'm happy. They're happy. Everyone's happy.
> Well, be proud and content that it makes you feel unique. Do not forget
> however, that a perrson who freely chooses to discount his ethnicity or his
> original tongue is still unique in his ownself. Ang pagkatao ay hindi
> na-aayon sa pag-gamit ng wikang Pilipino. Kanya-kanyan pag-kakaiba at
> kanya-kanyan desisyon. Now, yang desisyon mo na ma-asar sa kapwa dahil sa
> kanilang kaibahan sa iyo ang magbibigay lamang sa iyo ng sakit ng ulo. Live
> and let live ika nga - be happy.
Imagine mo kaya ang mga magiging tanong ng mga anak (o mga apo) nilang gustong
malaman kung saan sila nang-galing? Ano ang isasagot nila? "Ikinahiya ko ang
aking pinang-galingan kaya hindi kita masasagot?" Aray! Insulto! Iyan ay
napakasakit marining! Tsk.. tsk... tsk...
But that's going to be their problem, their crisis of identity. I'm not going to
subject my children (and grandchildren) to that problem. I refuse to... Unless
of course, they choose to. But that makes it *their* problem (or not). Oh well..
It's my peeve. But I can live with it. I always have...
-- Paula (the highly-opinionated one)
"Ang hindi lumilingon sa pinang-galingan ay hindi darating sa paroroonan." --
Dr. Jose Rizal.
animator
Langhiya naman Paula, pati ba naman mga magiging tanong ng mga apo at ang
magigin sagot ng kanilang lolo't lola ay pinoproblema mo pa! Insulto
kanino? Will you be around to be insulted? Aba naman, eh nakakakilabot
naman iyan !! Tutal, sabi mo rin lang naman "that is going to be their
problem" pero bakit nakatuon ang mga tenga mo sa magiging usapan nila in so
many years ahead? Napaka- contradictory yata ng sinasabi mo eh! Basta't
asikasuhin mo na lamang ang mga anak mo at huwag mo nang i-entertain ang
choices nila. Kaya nga't nagkakagulo ang mundo dahil madalas ay ibig nating
sundin ng iba ang sarili nating kaisipan. I hope you don't take this as an
imposition on what you believe in. You be good now and sleep tight.
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353A85FB...@nospam.techw.com>...
Padillat23
Subject: Fake Filipinos! Mga Peke!!!
From: Paula Angeles-Leiby <twp...@nospam.techw.com>
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 8:28 AM
Message-id: <353A181B...@nospam.techw.com>
Admit it. You know people like this. I do. I can vouch for it. It's one
of my greatest peeves.
Scenario:
Filipino guy/gal goes to the States at an early age, let's say 13-16.
They stay here for a couple of years absorbing the culture,
assimiliating, acculturating by osmosis... Then s/he meets other Pinoys.
They say "hi" and "hello." Then they start having regular conversation.
Then Guy/Gal X who came here when s/he was 13-16 says "Sorry, but I
don't understand Tagalog anymore." And s/he never utters another Tagalog
word again.
All of us know that that is BOGUS. Even taken into account that they
might know another dialect than other Tagalog. We all know that the
cut-off for language acquisition is 13. (I took a "How to Teach ESL"
class and they theorized that the cut-off for forgetting/remembering
language is 13 years old.) Then why, say such an idiotic thing when
there are people out there that could get the 411 on you if they really
wanted to? Perhaps they can even tell by the hint of an accent in your
voice? Are people like Guy/Gal X ashamed that they speak Tagalog? Are
they ashamed that they are Filipino? (my theory)
I proudly tell people I'm bilingual. In fact, I know people who have
been here since they were 5 years old and can still speak Tagalog better
than I do (I tell them I'm insanely jealous of them.). Then bakit? Why?
Bakit nila itinatapon ang parte ng kanilang pagkatao na nagpapa-unique
sa kanila?
-- Paula
=================================
You sincerely believe that you're more Filipino than them simply because
they're pretending or denying to some people that they don't understand
Tagalog? Are they really bogus Filipinos as you have concluded or simply
trying to avoid the prejudice and discrimination in America where people can
judge them by the *hint of an accent* from their voice, especially from
American-born Filipinos? Perhaps, they are trying to learn English so they try
not to talk in their native dialect which they already know by heart and which
they don't have to prove. Perhaps, it's also true that they are already having
difficulty conversing in Tagalog because most of they people they interact with
speak English. Maybe they went to elite private schools in the Philippines
where they were taught in English. Some are probably native Ilocano or Cebuano
speakers. Whatever their reasons, are they required to reveal to YOU or to
anyone what's their native dialect, especially when you've just met each other?
Should these recent immigrants be compelled to write an essay in class about
their personal background and their heritage - whether they eat balut or
consider dog meat a delicacy? Have you written this kind of essay when you
first went to school in the U.S.? If so, what do you that kind of essay really
serves? As for recent immigrants who are not native English speakers, do they
really have to proclaim they are bilingual or trilingual? Is it really fair to
conclude that they are ashame to be Filipino or that they are throwing away
their culture? Who is really Peke?
Padillat23
Subject: Re: Fake Filipinos! Mga Peke!!!
From: Paula Angeles-Leiby <twp...@nospam.techw.com>
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 4:17 PM
Message-id: <353A85FB...@nospam.techw.com>
animator wrote:
> Too bad it's one of your pet peeves. You'll have to suffer it the rest of
> your life if you don't overcome it. Hope it doesn't eat on you forever
> cause, like you say, it's a fact.
I just choose not to associate with people who play this "linguistic ignorance"
game. In fact, if I am about to be introduced to people who are like these by
my
friends, they are given some form of warning about my opinions about it. They
don't get introduced to me anymore. I'm happy. They're happy. Everyone's happy.
====================================
And you expect to become friends with Filipinos with that attitude? They might
think you're mayabang. Maybe, it would help if you establish some rapport with
them first.
> Well, be proud and content that it makes you feel unique. Do not forget
> however, that a perrson who freely chooses to discount his ethnicity or his
> original tongue is still unique in his ownself. Ang pagkatao ay hindi
> na-aayon sa pag-gamit ng wikang Pilipino. Kanya-kanyan pag-kakaiba at
> kanya-kanyan desisyon. Now, yang desisyon mo na ma-asar sa kapwa dahil sa
> kanilang kaibahan sa iyo ang magbibigay lamang sa iyo ng sakit ng ulo. Live
> and let live ika nga - be happy.
Imagine mo kaya ang mga magiging tanong ng mga anak (o mga apo) nilang gustong
malaman kung saan sila nang-galing? Ano ang isasagot nila? "Ikinahiya ko ang
aking pinang-galingan kaya hindi kita masasagot?" Aray! Insulto! Iyan ay
napakasakit marining! Tsk.. tsk... tsk...
But that's going to be their problem, their crisis of identity. I'm not going
to
subject my children (and grandchildren) to that problem. I refuse to... Unless
of course, they choose to. But that makes it *their* problem (or not). Oh
well..
It's my peeve. But I can live with it. I always have...
-- Paula (the highly-opinionated one)
"Ang hindi lumilingon sa pinang-galingan ay hindi darating sa paroroonan." --
Dr. Jose Rizal.
================================
Is it really fair to conclude that what you're observing about the behavior of
some Filipinos is a real crisis of identity? Aren't they pragmatically trying
to integrate themselves, and survive in the mainstream culture they have found
themselves in? Is that a crisis of identity or lack of historical
consciousness? Who is really having a crisis of identity?
R2C
animator wrote:
>
> Well, be proud and content that it makes you feel unique. Do not forget
> however, that a perrson who freely chooses to discount his ethnicity or his
> original tongue is still unique in his ownself. Ang pagkatao ay hindi
> na-aayon sa pag-gamit ng wikang Pilipino.
I don't think she was speaking about them as Human Beings in general.
Yes, Filipinos who ignore/forget/pretend-not-to-know their heritage
and/or language are still people, possibly still nice good people judged
by other criteria. But the pretending-not-to-know where I came from/my
native language thing makes them a little less Filipino. A culture's
native language is a large part of its identity. To deny it, pretend
one does not know it, or to frown on speaking it, or worse to frown upon
*others* who choose to STILL speak it, that's. . .well, let me be blunt,
that's bullshit.
I can understand trying to better assimilate into the new place you're
living in, making sure you speak good english around non-Pinoys, but to
pretend to have forgotten your culture or language among fellow Pinoys.
. .that just feels wrong. Yes, they are free to choose this path. Yes
they are free to frown upon their native tongue. BUT, Paula is also
*free* to NOT LIKE THEM, NOT ASSOCIATE WITH THEM for choosing this
path.
--
@`@@@@ .
,,,,, ~@@@ ~@ @@ `@ ~@~ ~@ ~' . . . .
\\ __ @` ~ . '.@@@@~@@~@~@@@~@, . . .
------|oo';~ Flaming Ron Chi Cha Ron @@@~,,, , . . . .
------|__,'~@@ . . . . . R2C ~@~. '' . . . .
-----| ~~@@@@'~@~@@@~ @@ . @@@@~@@@@' . . .
''''' '~ ~@@@@~ @@~~
"Lechon renowl, dalawang manok, at pancit palabok: only $14.99!"
kardo
Paula's scenario involved fLips coming here at age 13 who claim they can
no longer speak Tagalog. It's one of her pet peeves. I find those
people annoying also. What's more annoying are those Pinoys with
heavily-accented English tell me with a straight face they can no longer
speak Tagalog!
I'm a native Cebuano who came to the states at 15. Tagalog is not my
first language yet I even remember how to speak Pilipino as taught in
schools and can communicate effectively with Tagalog friends. I don't
know anyone among my Cebuano peers who cannot speak Tagalog.
Incidentally, I have many Filipino friends who studied in "elite"
schools, whose first language is English (very common among the well-to-
do over there) and can still speak Tagalog.
When I lived in Cebu City, we had a maid who spent most of her life in
the mountains of Cebu. After spending one year in Manila, she returned
and only spoke to us in Tagalog because she had already forgotten
Cebuano. The situation is similar and it's sad!
coolbean
Hello, I am a senior sociology and anthropology major at
Swarthmore College currently writing my thesis on child rearing practices
among Filipino American families. I am interested in how Filipino culture
is passed on and retained (or not retained) among Fil Am children.
Ultimately I guess I am trying to understand the multifaceted aspects of
the Filipino American identity. I understand this varies from person to
person, and I am particularly interested in these variations (instances in
peoples' lives that cause them to have a different sense of identity
(i.e., multi-racial Fil Ams, being raised in a large Filipino community in
the U.S., knowing a Filipino dialect). I saw your post here and have been
wondering why kids do this too. I'm an American-born Filipina who has
done a lot to try to learn Tagalog (not being taught it growing up). I
think language has a huge effect on learning culture, so I also why
parents want their kids to grow up with Filipino values, but don't teach
them the language. I understand that many don't want them to deal with
the hardships of racism because of their accent or stuff like that, but
lots of culture is inherent in the language, so I think that would be more
important. I was wondering, if you don't mind, if i could use your
comment in my section on language in my thesis. If not, that's ok. And
if you have any more comments about this or any suggestions, I would
appreciate it a lot.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Anna Yangco
In article <353A181B...@nospam.techw.com>, twp...@nospam.techw.com
wrote:
--
Anna Yangco '98
Swarthmore College
http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ryangco
"Bustin' it and Survivin'" - John Starks
Paula Angeles-Leiby
See, from what I read, more people agree with me than who do not. Sure!
Condemn me for being mayabang about this subject. I don't care. At least I'm
consistent: I am consistently annoyed at people who do this "I don't know
(with some accent) Tagalog anymore." bullshit. Sino ba ang pinapa-impress
nila by doing this? Ako? Kapwa Pilipinong mga kasama nila? Mga ibang-lahi
nilang kaibigan? Huwag lang nila gagawin iyan sa harap ko dahil hindi ko
sila kakausapin. Baka pahiyain ko pa sila. Sadista pa naman ang mga kaibigan
ko. Sasakay pa yung mga iyon.
Think about this: If they are willing to LIE and DENY their ethnicity and
identity, WHAT ELSE could they lie about in your face? Umpisa lang yung
language thing...
-- Paula
ManongKiko
>m: kardo <kard...@hotmail.com>
>Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 06:29 EDT
>Message-id: <353B23...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>When I lived in Cebu City, we had a maid who spent most of her life in
>the mountains of Cebu. After spending one year in Manila, she returned
>and only spoke to us in Tagalog because she had already forgotten
>Cebuano. The situation is similar and it's sad!
>
Binuang man kanang imo Bay. Nalipong tingali siya kung hain ang mas nindot ug
sinultihan - Tagalog o Cebuano ba.
Buweno aduna akoy amigo dinhi nga Kapangpangan. Ingon siya nga mianhi siya
dinhi sa States nga onse anyos lang siya. Dayon mibalibad nga dili kuno siya
kamao mag Tagalog. Nakasabot ako kay Kapangpangan man siya ug unya lahi man ang
Tagalog. Pero nakaadto ako sa ilang balay usa niana ka adlaw. Diyos ko,
makasulti diay ug Tagalog ang demonyong dako kay nahulog siya sa ilang hagdan
ug miingon "Putang Inang hagdan na ito!"
Jojo
Maybe the knowledge of culture and history of the Philippines is a factor
for this negative attitude . I have an American friend living in the
midwest , He is a young lawyer who spent a year in the Philippines ... He
is a contrast to these young FIL-AM you mention because this guy proudly
claim he is a Filipino (even though he was born and raised in the U.S) , He
can not speak tagalog but speaks fluent and I mean very fluent Cebuano .....
We use to call him "Bisoy" or Bisayang Tisoy and people may really confuse
him to be one when they hear him speak Visaya (xcept he's taller than the
average Hispanic-Fil) .
He enjoyed the company of Filipinos , learned how to play "PUSOY" and "Forty
One" ,
He even enjoyed wearing "PIDRO" tshirts proudly claiming he is PINOY .
He is a very intelligent individual who recognized the wealth of Fil culture
, Perhaps when this kids have the same exposure to Philippine culture they
will have a change of heart ..
Paula Angeles-Leiby
Padillat23 wrote:
> And you expect to become friends with Filipinos with that attitude? They might
> think you're mayabang. Maybe, it would help if you establish some rapport with
> them first.
I don't. They're not friends of mine. Even if they think I'm mayabang about it, I
don't care. If they choose to be fake in front of me, why should I care about their
opinion, valid or not. They have turned me off by doing that.
> Is it really fair to conclude that what you're observing about the behavior of
> some Filipinos is a real crisis of identity? Aren't they pragmatically trying
> to integrate themselves, and survive in the mainstream culture they have found
> themselves in? Is that a crisis of identity or lack of historical
> consciousness? Who is really having a crisis of identity?
I understand that they are trying to assimilate. I've done that myself. In fact
(this *is* a fact), everyone who has heard me speak English find it very hard to
believe I speak *another* language. I can speak English without *any* accent
whatsoever (except American). Minsan may halong Philadelphia pa. But see, I know
other people who speak perfect English and perfect Tagalog at the same time. *They
are* who I consider my friends. I see no crisis of identity in them... It's
possible to achieve a linguistic balance. We've done it.
-- Paula
Note: If you really want to know that I'm not lying about my claims, CALL ME...
I'll prove it.
--
Paula Angeles-Leiby - Technical Writer
TechWRITE, Inc.
E-mail: twp...@techw.com
Corporate website: http://www.techw.com
ICQ#: 10900390
My opinions do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
klas...@hotmail.com
I, as a first generation Filipino immigrant to Canada, prefer to use Tagalog
as my language of choice, when conversing with other Filipinos who speaks the
language as well (in the absence of non-Filipinos). I first came here when I
was 17, and have been here for over 2 decades. Having said that, I can also
understand others whose preference is English. There are really many reasons
why other Filipinos would not/can not/prefer not to speak Tagalog. Not knowing
their individual circumstances specially on first meeting, I will not elevate
myself in a pedestal or claim a high moral ground for being more nationalistic
than them, or more cultured than them; nor accuse them of ignorance,
shortsightedness, with weak convictions, or any other character weaknesses.
If an immigrant came here at an early age, and did not have anyone to
converse/practice with his/her first language, soon enough, he/she will forget
the language through disuse.
I can relate to this myself in my early elementary years. At that time, I used
to be able to speak Spanish, English, Tagalog, Bicol, Chinese, and Pangasinan.
But because of constant movement from one province to another (the nature of
my father's job involves travel, and he was constantly re-assigned to other
provinces), I soon forgot all of it except Tagalog and English.
When my family immigrated to Canada, my two younger sisters were the ages of
13 and 9. And the same thing happened to them. While they can mostly
comprehend most of the words if you talk to them in Tagalog, they are not
comfortable speaking it. They can if forced to, albeit in broken Tagalog. But
they won't be comfortable with it, because they will have a very noticeable
accent, and might be afraid of being laugh at.
In my two decades of living here in North America, I have yet to meet a
Filipino who fakes not knowing how to speak Tagalog. Those that I met who
claimed they couldn't, were genuinely so, for I can detect no accent (or
almost no accent) in their English.
I don't believe that one can easily deceive me in claiming that he/she has
forgotten to speak Tagalog. It would be very obvious with their accent and
intonation when speaking in English. I would be amused to observe someone
faking ignorance of Tagalog. It would be interesting to observe him/her speak
in (not so perfect) English with a heavy accent. It would cause me to smile
and peer through their eyes, and observe their mouth as they fumble. I will
enjoy listening to their heavily accented English. Then I would pinch him/her
unexpectedly, and laugh my head off when I hear him/her cry out 'ARRAY'!
(Buking din siya…. Ha ha ha ha!)
Just my two cents worth.
Sonny Mendoza
(klassique AT hotmail DOT com)
In article <353A181B...@nospam.techw.com>#1/1,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
kardo
ManongKiko wrote:
> Binuang man kanang imo Bay. Nalipong tingali siya kung hain ang mas nindot ug
> sinultihan - Tagalog o Cebuano ba.
>
> Buweno aduna akoy amigo dinhi nga Kapangpangan. Ingon siya nga mianhi siya
> dinhi sa States nga onse anyos lang siya. Dayon mibalibad nga dili kuno siya
> kamao mag Tagalog. Nakasabot ako kay Kapangpangan man siya ug unya lahi man ang
> Tagalog. Pero nakaadto ako sa ilang balay usa niana ka adlaw. Diyos ko,
> makasulti diay ug Tagalog ang demonyong dako kay nahulog siya sa ilang hagdan
> ug miingon "Putang Inang hagdan na ito!"
Binoang gud. Ang akong ig-agaw nga nagkuha sa iyang PhD sa Ateneo miingon nako nga
naa sab kuno siya'y classmate nga Cebuano nga dili na kamao mobinisaya. Maong
nisuwat siya aning balak nga iyang gi-email nako:
mahanaw na ba ang atong dila?
mopanaw na ba ang atong wika?
kuyog sa hanging ba mapadpad?
og dili mobalik sa iyang paglupad?
subo' nga paminawon ang mga batan-on
sa cebuano nagalisod pagkat-on
dili makasubay sa ilang gigikanan
sigurado ba sila's ilang padulngan?
kini mga pangutana'ng lisud tubagon
ako kining pagadad-on hangtud sa akong lungon
og kon wala ma'y makatubag niini
ako nagahina-ut nga ang kining pangutana mahimong binhi.
animinator
klas...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6hgjd2$eu5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
This is quite true to a certain extent in my case -- I came here at a far
more advanced age than 13 or 17. I use to chatter in Ilocano and Tagalog.
After over a decade living here in the U.S., I find myself groping for the
right words to use whenever I talk to a fellow Ilocano. I have to think
longer to find the right word in tagalog ... it took me several days to
reclaim the word "tukayo" and this with help of some friends who could not
remember the word to denote "similarity in names."
animinator
R2C wrote in message <353B1CA4...@uss.enterprise>...
>animator wrote:
>>
>> Well, be proud and content that it makes you feel unique. Do not forget
>> however, that a perrson who freely chooses to discount his ethnicity or
his
>> original tongue is still unique in his ownself. Ang pagkatao ay hindi
>> na-aayon sa pag-gamit ng wikang Pilipino.
>
>I don't think she was speaking about them as Human Beings in general.
>Yes, Filipinos who ignore/forget/pretend-not-to-know their heritage
>and/or language are still people, possibly still nice good people judged
>by other criteria.
We agree -- I know of a lot of people who don't speak their language,
whether they really forgot or choose to forget, who are very nice people.
It sure makes my point clearer when you mention judging people by "other
criteria." Let's leave it that para di-lilihis ang usapan.
>But the pretending-not-to-know where I came from/my
>native language thing makes them a little less Filipino. A culture's
>native language is a large part of its identity. To deny it, pretend
>one does not know it, or to frown on speaking it, or worse to frown upon
>*others* who choose to STILL speak it, that's. . .well, let me be blunt,
>that's bullshit.
Less a filipino? Let me ask it differently, who is "more a filipino," if
there is such a "one?" Are you more a filipino, or am I more a filipino
since I don't deny where I come from? To frown on someone for speaking the
native language is surely bothersome, but I believe this is what Paula wrote
and I quote:
".......Then Guy/Gal X who came here when s/he was 13-16 says "Sorry, but I
don't understand Tagalog anymore." And s/he never utters another Tagalog
word again.".." Paula continues: ...All of us know that that is
BOGUS. Even taken into account that they
might know another dialect than other Tagalog. We all know that the ...."
I believe that frowing on the use of the native tounge by others doesn't
even enter the scenario that she raises. The woman in question does not in
anyway deny her roots, rather, she apologizes for her incapacity. Paula
surely jumps the gun and accuses fakery in this situation.
Paula further writes: "......Are people like Guy/Gal X ashamed that they
speak Tagalog? Are
they ashamed that they are Filipino? (my theory)
Note how she puts up a caveat (my theory) !!
>I can understand trying to better assimilate into the new place you're
>living in, making sure you speak good english around non-Pinoys, but to
>pretend to have forgotten your culture or language among fellow Pinoys.
>. .that just feels wrong. Yes, they are free to choose this path. Yes
>they are free to frown upon their native tongue. BUT, Paula is also
>*free* to NOT LIKE THEM, NOT ASSOCIATE WITH THEM for choosing this
>path.
If there was "pretense" , it was only Paula's theory -- a guess !! Would
the fact that someone speaks with an accent be sufficient evidence to
logically conclude that some one is pretending?
I appreciate a "mature" person's opinion and I respect what a person
believes. Like you, I believe that she may choose not to like them, not to
associate with them, or to ignore them completely. But I further believe
that we as "persons" are obligated, by virture of our higher nature as
"persons," to call the attention of others within our space and sphere, to
reflect further over negative attitudes that can hinder, estop, bar, or
create a tense co-existence. No Ron, don't jump on me on this one --- if
we simply give in to our the baser nature, then, that is to our lose and not
to anybody's gain.
In a later post to this thread, Paula writes: ".........I don't. They're
not friends of mine. Even if they think I'm mayabang about it, I don't care.
If they choose to be fake in front of me, why should I care about their
opinion, valid or not. They have turned me off by doing that.........."
She doesn't care about what the world thinks about her, she doesn' care
about their opinion, valid or not. If that doesn't ring "snobbery" then I
don't know what. Before your start churning that mind of yours, let me make
it clear that "not to mind" is not the same as "not to care at all."
There is a cartoon called the "Care Bears" and it may appear idiotic to
people like us who have seen so much in life. But I'd always be happy to
show this to the young people to appreciate "caring."
That's it .... before we go astray from the thread.
animinator
>
>> Too bad it's one of your pet peeves. You'll have to suffer it the rest
>> your life if you don't overcome it. Hope it doesn't eat on you forever
>> cause, like you say, it's a fact.
>
>I just choose not to associate with people who play this "linguistic
ignorance"
>game. In fact, if I am about to be introduced to people who are like these
by my
>friends, they are given some form of warning about my opinions about it.
They
>don't get introduced to me anymore. I'm happy. They're happy. Everyone's
happy.
How can you be so sure Paula. YOu yourself say it's only your theory!
Remember? Are you confused with fact and theory so easily, or do you just
mix them up and and call it a truth? And no, you're not really happy, coz
you could not freely give yourself to others, and neither could you accept
others. That's not happiness I assure you. Happiness is freedom of the
spirit, care, respect and love for others. No Paula, are you sure you're
not missing something here?
animinator
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353B6BCA...@techw.com>...
>Padillat23 wrote:
>
>> And you expect to become friends with Filipinos with that attitude? They
might
>> think you're mayabang. Maybe, it would help if you establish some
rapport with
>> them first.
>
it, I
>don't care. If they choose to be fake in front of me, why should I care
about their
>opinion, valid or not. They have turned me off by doing that.
I just mentioned to RonC that this statement caries the semblance of
snobbery. If you would continue this way, who would want you as a friend?
I believe that whatever our thought processes are, and whatever we believe
in, we still need to care. You might find it refreshing if you started
doing just that.
>> Is it really fair to conclude that what you're observing about the
behavior of
>> some Filipinos is a real crisis of identity? Aren't they pragmatically
trying
>> to integrate themselves, and survive in the mainstream culture they have
found
>> themselves in? Is that a crisis of identity or lack of historical
>> consciousness? Who is really having a crisis of identity?
>
>I understand that they are trying to assimilate. I've done that myself. In
fact
>(this *is* a fact), everyone who has heard me speak English find it very
hard to
>believe I speak *another* language. I can speak English without *any*
accent
>whatsoever (except American). Minsan may halong Philadelphia pa. But see, I
know
>other people who speak perfect English and perfect Tagalog at the same
time. *They
>are* who I consider my friends. I see no crisis of identity in them... It's
>possible to achieve a linguistic balance. We've done it.
Tsk ... tsk... is this where you're coming from? Lingustic balance?
That's a new one as far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, we can not
dictate how others should behave neither can we tell them which choices to
make. Based on postings, I would assume that you would hate that if someone
forced his way with you. We can only look into ourselves and choose the
better course. Tis good you can speak english with an american accent and
then speak perfect Tagalog. But then again, take off those paradigm phrisms
that you wear, and maybe you'd see a better world out there. You could be a
better person you know.
By the way, I am not asking to subscribe to MY WAY. I am just inviting you
to reflect more on this "attitude imbalance" vis "linguistic imbalance."
(Oooooops ..... 'nother term there !!) Anyway, it all boils down to your
own choice. But since you raise this for discussion in a group, then this
is all it really is ... a discussion. Clear?
Sonny Mendoza
I, as a first generation Filipino immigrant in Canada, prefer to use
Tagalog as my language of choice, when conversing with other Filipinos
who speaks the language as well (in the absence of non-Filipinos). I
first came here when I was 17, and have been here for over 2 decades.
Having said that, I can also understand others whose preference is
English. There are really many reasons why other Filipinos would
not/can not/prefer not to speak Tagalog. Not knowing their individual
circumstances specially on first meeting, I will not elevate myself in
a pedestal or claim a high moral ground for being more nationalistic
than them, or more cultured than them; nor accuse them of ignorance,
shortsightedness, with weak convictions, or any other character
weaknesses.
If an immigrant came here at an early age, and did not have anyone to
converse/practice with his/her first language, soon enough, he/she
will forget the language through disuse.
I can relate to this myself in my early elementary years. At that
time, I used to be able to speak Spanish, English, Tagalog, Bicol,
Chinese, and Pangasinan. But because of constant movement from one
province to another (the nature of my father's job involves travel,
and he was constantly re-assigned to other provinces), I soon forgot
all of it except Tagalog and English.
When my family immigrated to Canada, my two younger sisters were the
ages of 13 and 9. And the same thing happened to them. While they can
mostly comprehend most of the words if you talk to them in Tagalog,
they are not comfortable speaking it. They can if forced to, albeit in
broken Tagalog. But they won't be comfortable with it, because they
will have a very noticeable accent, and might be afraid of being laugh
at.
In my two decades of living here in North America, I have yet to meet
a Filipino who fakes not knowing how to speak Tagalog. Those that I
met who claimed they couldn't, were genuinely so, for I can detect no
accent (or almost no accent) in their English.
I don't believe that one can easily deceive me in claiming that he/she
has forgotten to speak Tagalog. It would be very obvious with their
accent and intonation when speaking in English. I would be amused to
observe someone faking ignorance of Tagalog. It would be interesting
to observe him/her speak in (not so perfect) English with a heavy
accent. It would cause me to smile and peer through their eyes, and
observe their mouth as they fumble. I will enjoy listening to their
heavily accented English. Then I would pinch him/her unexpectedly, and
laugh my head off when I hear him/her cry out 'ARRAY'! (Buking din
siya…. Ha ha ha ha!)
Just my two cents worth.
Sonny Mendoza
On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:28:28 -0500, Paula Angeles-Leiby
<twp...@nospam.techw.com> wrote:
>Admit it. You know people like this. I do. I can vouch for it. It's one
>of my greatest peeves.
>
>Scenario:
>Filipino guy/gal goes to the States at an early age, let's say 13-16.
>They stay here for a couple of years absorbing the culture,
>assimiliating, acculturating by osmosis... Then s/he meets other Pinoys.
>They say "hi" and "hello." Then they start having regular conversation.
>Then Guy/Gal X who came here when s/he was 13-16 says "Sorry, but I
>don't understand Tagalog anymore." And s/he never utters another Tagalog
>word again.
>
>All of us know that that is BOGUS. Even taken into account that they
>might know another dialect than other Tagalog. We all know that the
>cut-off for language acquisition is 13. (I took a "How to Teach ESL"
>class and they theorized that the cut-off for forgetting/remembering
>language is 13 years old.) Then why, say such an idiotic thing when
>there are people out there that could get the 411 on you if they really
>wanted to? Perhaps they can even tell by the hint of an accent in your
>voice? Are people like Guy/Gal X ashamed that they speak Tagalog? Are
>they ashamed that they are Filipino? (my theory)
>
j...@nospam_taipei.geoquest.slb.com
Filipinos who try/pretend/deny..... " ang hindi marunong magmahal sa
sariling bansa ay higit pa ang amoy sa mabahong isda ".
animinator
Paula, I hope that I am not coming across in any way condemning you.
Neither am I calling you mayabang ... that is for me to keep for now. Of
course I did mention the word "snobbery" in another post, but only to call
for a differentiation. Let me however call your attention on certain
points:
1. The fact that more agrees with someone does not necessarily mean that
the latter is correct or right or justified. Where there is tyranny by the
the minority, so is there tyranny by the majority.
2. You could re-think your attitude of "not caring."
3. Consistency is not a virtue when one consistently nurtures an anomaly,
crudeness, inhumanity, or anything like that.
4. Annoyance comes from a reason. In this case, with people who says "I
don't know... blah..." But that is just superficial. How about something
deeper than that? The case that peeves you now is just a trigger of
something deep in you.
5. How do you know that they're trying to impress you when they know that
you know that they're filipinos for a fact?
6. And how can you now assume that you are that special to them? Will they
lose anything if you snobbed them or ignored them? Do you think of yourself
above them or specially different from them? What is the problem here?
Paula, you are glossing over the superficial.
7. Why are you manifesting extreme animosity towards them? Are you really
sure that this is not stemming from some form of jealousy or envy or
insecurity? What Paula? Why are you displaying anger ... that you would go
beyond ignoring them to actually embarrassing them? Why do you find it
right for your friends to be sadists, and why do you feel glad that your
"sadistic" friends would take your side in this?
8. I suspect that this feelings are really directed towards someone or a
group. Why do you say that they are liars or that they deny their ethnicity
when all they do is speak in an "accented english?" Why do you assume so
much negative thoughts out of a theory?
9. Finally, why did you find it necessary to point out the fact in your
post that more agree with you? Do I sense glee that this was the case?
What if, less agreed with you, would you have a problem coping with that?
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353B4CD3...@techw.com>...
animinator
jun@nospam_taipei.geoquest.slb.com wrote in message
<353c0304...@news.sinet.slb.com>...
>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:25:39 -0400, Paula Angeles-Leiby
><twp...@techw.com> wrote:
>>See, from what I read, more people agree with me than who do not. Sure!
>>Condemn me for being mayabang about this subject. I don't care. At least
I'm
>>-- Paula
>Go for it Paula, i totally agree with you. And as i always say to
>Filipinos who try/pretend/deny..... " ang hindi marunong magmahal sa
>sariling bansa ay higit pa ang amoy sa mabahong isda ".
Ka Jun, hindi po ganire and basa ko sa problema niyaring Paula. Palagay ko
eh mas malalim ito kaysa sa dagat na kung saan lumalangoy ang mga isda.
Nagtataka lamang ako, dahil mabigat ang pagka-imbierna nireng Paula, nagalak
na ipinanamalita na higit and sumasang-ayon sa kanyang teyoreya. Nabasa mo
na marahil ang kanyang sinabi na wala siyang pakialam kaninuman, ang at
kanyang nasang ipahiya ang ilan sa kanyang mga kakilala, kulang na hiyakatin
niya ang kaniyang mga sadistang kaibigan na makiayon at makisama sa
pagpapahiya ng ilang kakilala. Ka Jun, hindi it prinsipiyo, kundi sa aking
palagay, ay nanggagaling sa galit.
ManongKiko
> kardo <kard...@hotmail.com>
>Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 22:33 EDT
>Message-id: <353C055C...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>Binoang gud. Ang akong ig-agaw nga nagkuha sa iyang PhD sa Ateneo miingon
>nako nga
>naa sab kuno siya'y classmate nga Cebuano nga dili na kamao mobinisaya.
>Maong
>nisuwat siya aning balak nga iyang gi-email nako:
>
>mahanaw na ba ang atong dila?
>mopanaw na ba ang atong wika?
>kuyog sa hanging ba mapadpad?
>og dili mobalik sa iyang paglupad?
>
>subo' nga paminawon ang mga batan-on
>sa cebuano nagalisod pagkat-on
>dili makasubay sa ilang gigikanan
>sigurado ba sila's ilang padulngan?
>
>kini mga pangutana'ng lisud tubagon
>ako kining pagadad-on hangtud sa akong lungon
>og kon wala ma'y makatubag niini
>ako nagahina-ut nga ang kining pangutana mahimong binhi.
>
>
Kadto....nakaunod usab. Ako hinuon dugay na kaayo sa Amerika pero dako ang
akong katingala nganong dili man magkawala ang akong nahibaw-an sa atong
pinulungan. Sa akong paminaw, kana tingaling mga nagpapeke peke pa ay mga
ipokrito at ingrato na hindi naman bagay sa kanila. Nagpakita na kulang sa
pagkaunawa ng kanilang sarili bilang isang Filipino at kulang din sa kaalaman
ng kasaysayan ng ating lupang sinilangan. Kawawa naman.
R2C
animinator wrote:
> Less a filipino?
yes. as I said, language is a major part of a culture's identity. If
someone chooses to deny this part of their cultural heritage/identity,
then they are denying something that had been a part of them, denying
something that defines their cultural identity.
> Let me ask it differently, who is "more a filipino," if
> there is such a "one?" Are you more a filipino, or am I more a filipino
> since I don't deny where I come from?
How then can one define an identity if one denies where one is from? Is
this not the reason why we study history? So that we know where we came
from. If this was so insignificant, why then is History a required
subject in most of the world's nations?
> To frown on someone for speaking the
> native language is surely bothersome, but I believe this is what Paula wrote
> and I quote:
I was not only speaking of what she wrote, but based my reply on my
experiences as well. I've met Filipinos who think that their native
tongue is "stupid". Now, that IS bothersome. Paula's experiences may
have been different from mine, but the "gist" of her message is clear. .
.she does not like Filipinos who have chosen to forget/deny their native
language. And that's her choice. If you are willing to defend/respect
the choice of Filipinos who choose to forget their native language, I
cannot fathom why you cannot also respect the choice of someone who
*does not* like Filipinos who choose to forget their native language.
You say you do, but your other words show you do not.
> If there was "pretense" , it was only Paula's theory -- a guess !!
Yes, but these are people she *met*. Have YOU met these people? I do
not think so. From this, I can only conclude that even while it could
be just a "guess", it is a better guess than that of someone who haven't
met these people and believe or think or guess that *really* HAVE
forgotten their native language and are not pretending.
> She doesn't care about what the world thinks about her, she doesn' care
> about their opinion, valid or not. If that doesn't ring "snobbery"
she's snobbing people who she believes are themselves snobs. a taste of
their own medicine, essentially. She may be wrong about these people,
or she maybe right. But you seem to sound like you want her to suddenly
start liking these people and associating with them, or that she & "all
of us as persons" are obligated to associate with people we don't like
for one reason or another.
> There is a cartoon called the "Care Bears" and it may appear idiotic to
> people like us who have seen so much in life. But I'd always be happy to
> show this to the young people to appreciate "caring."
It's a nice cartoon. But it's a cartoon. An idealized version of the
world, filled with bears that care about everyone no matter what they
are. Well, the real world doesn't work like that. . .out here people
are more picky about who they care about and who they do not care
about. You can't just obligate someone to suddenly care about
everyone. Perhaps living in an idealized cartoon world would be better,
perhaps there would be no Paulas there. . .but wouldn't you think that
in that idealized world...there would be no people who deny their
cultural heritage too?
BJ
what language is being spoken here?
kardo wrote:
> ManongKiko wrote:
>
> > Binuang man kanang imo Bay. Nalipong tingali siya kung hain ang mas nindot ug
> > sinultihan - Tagalog o Cebuano ba.
> >
> > Buweno aduna akoy amigo dinhi nga Kapangpangan. Ingon siya nga mianhi siya
> > dinhi sa States nga onse anyos lang siya. Dayon mibalibad nga dili kuno siya
> > kamao mag Tagalog. Nakasabot ako kay Kapangpangan man siya ug unya lahi man ang
> > Tagalog. Pero nakaadto ako sa ilang balay usa niana ka adlaw. Diyos ko,
> > makasulti diay ug Tagalog ang demonyong dako kay nahulog siya sa ilang hagdan
> > ug miingon "Putang Inang hagdan na ito!"
>
Paula Angeles-Leiby
animinator wrote:
Animator,
Snipped point taken into account.
> 1. The fact that more agrees with someone does not necessarily mean that
> the latter is correct or right or justified. Where there is tyranny by the
> the minority, so is there tyranny by the majority.
A lot of people agree with this value ('value' meaning 'a belief') that we don't
like people who pretend/fake/deny. There is nothing tyrannical about sharing
that value. I never said it was right or wrong either.
> 2. You could re-think your attitude of "not caring."
No. I'm not changing "my flavor" of not caring. I also never "suggested" that
you should re-think your beliefs to match mine. I expect the same. Besides, I
care about *the issue* enough to bring it up instead of pretending (there's that
word again) that it doesn't exist.
> 3. Consistency is not a virtue when one consistently nurtures an anomaly,
> crudeness, inhumanity, or anything like that.
Er... What is inhuman, crude or anomalous about thinking/believing/espousing the
value that "I don't like nor wish to associate with people who fake?" My way of
showing my value is by not being friends or associating with people who fake.
People I know, know that I believe that. They merely spare me the annoyance of
seeing it *again* first-hand.
> 4. Annoyance comes from a reason. In this case, with people who says "I
> don't know... blah..." But that is just superficial. How about something
> deeper than that? The case that peeves you now is just a trigger of
> something deep in you.
Er... didn't I just explain the reasons why I don't like it? It's fake. It's so
easy to be caught faking something like that. They insult my better senses in
thinking that they can impress me by their pretending. And frankly speaking, I
just don't like it. I have a *choice* to like or not like the things around me
after all.
> 5. How do you know that they're trying to impress you when they know that
> you know that they're filipinos for a fact?
People have different reasons to want to impress other people. Perhaps they
believe that I will bow before them because of their linguistic ability or
degree of assimilation in this country. Perhaps they have other reasons.
Whatever the reasons are for faking something is something I don't want to
bother to know.
> 6. And how can you now assume that you are that special to them? Will they
> lose anything if you snobbed them or ignored them? Do you think of yourself
> above them or specially different from them? What is the problem here?
> Paula, you are glossing over the superficial.
Err.. Did I say I was special to them? I don't care what people like those think
about me. I don't care if they lose/gain anything by being snubbed upon by me. I
don't think I'm any better, I just think it's more hassle to fake and I'd rather
not do or be exposed to it. You have to understand that faking something as
deep-seeded as knowing a language carries over implications that they could
easily fake other things. THAT is what bothers me. They could be faking they
like me, they could be faking they're friends with me.. who knows what else they
could be faking. No way. That kind of pretention invites trouble. I'm getting
out of that even before I get in.
> 7. Why are you manifesting extreme animosity towards them? Are you really
> sure that this is not stemming from some form of jealousy or envy or
> insecurity? What Paula? Why are you displaying anger ... that you would go
> beyond ignoring them to actually embarrassing them? Why do you find it
> right for your friends to be sadists, and why do you feel glad that your
> "sadistic" friends would take your side in this?
Jealousy? I'm jealous of plastic/fake people? That's really funny. I would
rather admire a person who openly displays their character flaws (or virtues)
than ones who deny/fake who they truly are. (Unless of course, they are truly
evil, violent or destructive.) My friends merely feel the same way as I do,
that's why I'm friends with them. I'm sure you choose your friends based on the
values they espouse that are congruent to yours.
> 8. I suspect that this feelings are really directed towards someone or a
> group. Why do you say that they are liars or that they deny their ethnicity
> when all they do is speak in an "accented english?" Why do you assume so
> much negative thoughts out of a theory?
Err... a hint of an accent means the nerves of their tongue have a real and
physical pathway to the brain. People's tongues are conditioned to say certain
culturally/geographically common sounds. Unless you've physically rearranged the
connections to your brain, it's a little hard to not say the sounds you were
conditioned to pronounce. (Go ask any linguist/ESL major.) I know there are
people out there who speak with accents regardless of whether they are really
speak another language, but I am still inclined to believe what I believe unless
proven otherwise.
> 9. Finally, why did you find it necessary to point out the fact in your
> post that more agree with you? Do I sense glee that this was the case?
> What if, less agreed with you, would you have a problem coping with that?
If even just one person (or none) agreed with me, it won't change my opinion of
it. I will still espouse that value.
Besides, when has this become an inquisition about my character/beliefs? If this
is the direction you want to take this discussion, we'll resort to PRIVATE
e-mail. If you want to still discuss the issue-at-hand, post.
To go back to the issue:
Let me ask you, have you ever encountered someone who faked language in your
face? What did *you* feel about it?
-- Paula
kard...@hotmail.com
In article <6hifu2$4...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
Hey BJ, how've you been, bud? It's Swedish. A great Swedish playwright
wrote:
Huwag kang mangungutang, huwag ding magpapautang:
Malimit mawala ang pautang, kasama ng kaibigan
At ang pangungutang, kaaway ng kasinupan.
Higit sa lahat, maging tapat sa sarili..."
Hamlet, Unang Yugto, Tagpo 3
Magno Cabanayan
Marami dito niyan, ang kalkula ko 80% nang mga nag po-post dito ay
tinamaan nang parunggit mo. Marami sa Pinoy ang mahilig mag pa "class"
at pomorma, pataasan nang ihi etc. Bato bato sa langit ang tamaan
seguradong may bukol sa ulo. Hehehehehe..
Magno(100% Pinoy and proud of it)
Bgdomingo
>what language is being spoken here?
>
>
I don't know what the hell these guys are talking about.
================================================================
Bong D
The South Will Rise Again!!!
animator
R2C wrote in message <353C5D...@uss.enterprise>...
>animinator wrote:
>> Less a filipino?
>
>> there is such a "one?" Are you more a filipino, or am I more a filipino
>> since I don't deny where I come from?
>
>How then can one define an identity if one denies where one is from? Is
>this not the reason why we study history? So that we know where we came
>from. If this was so insignificant, why then is History a required
>subject in most of the world's nations?
I do not in any manner discount defined parameters and objectives of either
teacher or student of history. I do however that to pursue along this line
will lead us to another area for discussion, which I admittedly, am not in
the least interested to pursue at this time. Perhaps we can revisit this at
some later time if we happen to change upon it again. For now, I'd
appreciate sticking to our issue at hand. I am not in any way ignoring or
discounting what you wrote. Truth is, it's a rich ground to grow logical
and meaningful debate. If I am not mistaken though, this has taken
different forms in different ways in this newsgroups.
>I was not only speaking of what she wrote, but based my reply on my
>experiences as well. I've met Filipinos who think that their native
>tongue is "stupid". Now, that IS bothersome. Paula's experiences may
>have been different from mine, but the "gist" of her message is clear. .
>.she does not like Filipinos who have chosen to forget/deny their native
>language. And that's her choice. If you are willing to defend/respect
>the choice of Filipinos who choose to forget their native language, I
>cannot fathom why you cannot also respect the choice of someone who
>*does not* like Filipinos who choose to forget their native language.
>You say you do, but your other words show you do not.
Well, I misunderstood you, but I hope you could understand me too, when I
say that my sights were Paula and her gripes, and therefore I misconstrued
what you were driving at. Let me further make it clearer, since it does not
seem that I have conveyed this effectively to you, that I do respect her
choice, and I can accept that. You may see this from the rest of the
postings I have made in discussing this issue with her. Hope you can get
over that idea of me trying to force her to be somebody else. Far from it
... rather she raised this in the newsgroup, and therefore her ideas are
simply being examined and discussed. Your criticism of my opinion is no
different, but I do not in any manner feel that you are trying to subrogate
my own thought processes or my outlook in life. It's a manifestation of
maturity I suppose. So far, Paula has been responding intelligently and has
not in any manner sidestepped the issue to give in to flaming or personal
attack. And I appreciate that. I do respect here choice -- Ron be at
peace with this thought in mind.
>Yes, but these are people she *met*. Have YOU met these people? I do
>not think so. From this, I can only conclude that even while it could
>be just a "guess", it is a better guess than that of someone who haven't
>met these people and believe or think or guess that *really* HAVE
>forgotten their native language and are not pretending.
Exactly my point !! I have been entertaining the idea that her expressed
antagonism is really directed to a select person or a select few, while at
the same time, it becomes a conclusion unto the general. I believe that our
logic course taught us the fallacy of concluding from the few to the
general. No, I havent met them, but neither have I NOT met this kind of
people. The difference lies the way we perceive things and how we re-act to
this external stimuli. I am quite sure that you do react differently from
me, in the same manner that I am re-acting to Paula's commentary. The term
"re-act" is really a negative term, so let just say, "respond" instead.
How's that? And sure, here guess is better than mind in the manner you put
it !! Yet still, a guess is still a guess, right? And I believe that a
1,000 guesses can never be an ounce good as one simple truth.
>she's snobbing people who she believes are themselves snobs. a taste of
>their own medicine, essentially. She may be wrong about these people,
>or she maybe right. But you seem to sound like you want her to suddenly
>start liking these people and associating with them, or that she & "all
>of us as persons" are obligated to associate with people we don't like
>for one reason or another.
My question was just that -- how could have she justified a conclusion of
supposed snubbery from another by the other's refusal to speak in the native
tongue? How could have she afforded to render a judgement based on a
theory? Don't we all have the right to face our accusers, be confronted
with relevant, verifiable and valid substantiation and evidence? I am not
asking her to like those people, and neither am I asking her change here
outlook. I was simply inviting her to examine this expressed attitude in a
different light. I was indirectly asking her to respect others for their
choices, in the same manner that she demands respect for hers. I found it
most bothersome when she mentions "embarrassing" others, over and above mere
snubbery, to the extreme of inviting her friends to participate in the act
of embarassing others. Isn't that kinda one-sided when one demands respect
for one's choice? And, you are right, we not obligated to associate with
people we do not like. But we are obligated to treat each other with
respect, not behemence.
>It's a nice cartoon. But it's a cartoon. An idealized version of the
>world, filled with bears that care about everyone no matter what they
>are. Well, the real world doesn't work like that. . .out here people
>are more picky about who they care about and who they do not care
>about. You can't just obligate someone to suddenly care about
>everyone. Perhaps living in an idealized cartoon world would be better,
>perhaps there would be no Paulas there. . .but wouldn't you think that
>in that idealized world...there would be no people who deny their
>cultural heritage too?
Ideal -- isn't that which guides us in our decisions? Isn't that which
make us re-act and respond to situations? Truly, the real world doesn't
work like "Care Bears" but surely, you would also agree that each
individual carries with him a set of ideals that he or she asserts in his
relationship with others, the community, the world. We try to pass these on
consciously or unconsciously. There are those who, (allow me to use this
SFC terms) assimilate and those are assimilated. Actually, we're a huge mix
of agreements and disagreements, all adding flavor to that one big kettle.
The ideal cartoon-world is something in each and everybody's mind, where we
escape every now and then ... the hobby we indulge in, the posting to a
newsgroup, the flaming of a poster (you do enjoy that, I see.. hehe) ...
singing in a choir, planning for the next year's picnic, day-dreaming about
the perfect software one can create ..... different escapes, different ways.
Living in a cartoon definitely would not be better, unless one has lost his
ability to understand and comprehend what goes on around him, or when one
starts entertaining the idea that the world is against him. While there
wouldn't be any Paulas in that world, you would however be all alone. And
no, certainly no obligations on anybody's part as far as this discussion
goes.
MARtin
kard...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6hith1$gdr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
In article <6hifu2$4...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
BJ <AWESO...@90210.beverly.hils.com> wrote:
>
> what language is being spoken here?
>
Hey BJ, how've you been, bud? It's Swedish. A great Swedish playwright
wrote:
Huwag kang mangungutang, huwag ding magpapautang:
Malimit mawala ang pautang, kasama ng kaibigan
At ang pangungutang, kaaway ng kasinupan.
Higit sa lahat, maging tapat sa sarili..."
Hamlet, Unang Yugto, Tagpo 3
animator
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353CCABE...@techw.com>...
>animinator wrote:
>Animator,
>
>A lot of people agree with this value ('value' meaning 'a belief') that we
don't
>like people who pretend/fake/deny. There is nothing tyrannical about
sharing
>that value. I never said it was right or wrong either.
Just like you, I too do not appreciate fakery or pretense. And I did not
say that this was in any way tyrannical or out of the norm. I was referring
to "commonness" or "agreement" among the majority, whatever the issue it may
be, which can not be always true or right all the time.
>No. I'm not changing "my flavor" of not caring. I also never "suggested"
that
>you should re-think your beliefs to match mine. I expect the same. Besides,
I
>care about *the issue* enough to bring it up instead of pretending (there's
that
>word again) that it doesn't exist.
I respect that. If you ever did suggest that I do re-think my outlook, I
surely would not have taken it against you. Rather, I would have considered
the possibilities that I may indeed have a need to modify or improve on the
way I look at things. I believe that people should not be scared of
dynamism, innovation, change. To my thinking, openness of the mind
nriches -- it does not impoverish.
>> 3. Consistency is not a virtue when one consistently nurtures an
anomaly,
>> crudeness, inhumanity, or anything like that.
>
>Er... What is inhuman, crude or anomalous about
thinking/believing/espousing the
>value that "I don't like nor wish to associate with people who fake?" My
way of
>showing my value is by not being friends or associating with people who
fake.
>People I know, know that I believe that. They merely spare me the annoyance
of
>seeing it *again* first-hand.
You can always try to prove me wrong, but I do believe that walls,
divisiveness, polarization, dissentions are negative forces. They certainly
could be catalysts or movers or shapers, but human life is so short for us
to experience the outcome of an upheaval the size of a societal magnitude.
On the other hand, we can experience, see, and live the outcomes of the way
we treat ourselves and others. In our own small worlds, we reap what we
sow, in a shorter span of time vis the global. We experience the hate, the
jealousies, the fakeries, the "annoyance" and "pet peeves" (by "pet", it
sounds like it's something a person nurtures and cares for to grow and bring
fruit) emptiness in our own little galaxies. AT the same time, we could
experience the joy, the camaraderie, the pure contentment of living a
meaningful life without the suspicions and theories that can make us
paranoid or scared of one's own shadow. And all these flow out of the
choices we make, the goals we set, the ideals we enshrine, the expectations
we hold sacrosanct.
>> 4. Annoyance comes from a reason. In this case, with people who says "I
>> don't know... blah..." But that is just superficial. How about
something
>Er... didn't I just explain the reasons why I don't like it? It's fake.
It's so
>easy to be caught faking something like that. They insult my better senses
in
>thinking that they can impress me by their pretending. And frankly
speaking, I
>just don't like it. I have a *choice* to like or not like the things around
me
>after all.
Indeed, you've used the term "fake" many times. I was just wondering
....... ah never mind. Yes, agree, you have a choice to like or dislike.
Frankly, I believe on that too -- but then again, I too believe that there
are always limitations. Consider the law that we observe. I for one
believe that in the collective wisdom of the majority, they deemed it
necessary and appropriate to protect the minority from the same majority who
promulgated those laws.
>> 5. How do you know that they're trying to impress you when they know
that
>
>People have different reasons to want to impress other people. Perhaps they
>believe that I will bow before them because of their linguistic ability or
>degree of assimilation in this country. Perhaps they have other reasons.
>Whatever the reasons are for faking something is something I don't want to
>bother to know.
Isn't it a little bit pretensious on our part to "theorize" that others want
us to bow before them because of their "theorized linguistic abilities?"
Didn't you just use the term "perhaps" twice in that above paragraph? And
since we "do not want to bother to know" what they really have in mind, why
should be even bother to "suspect" what evil runs through those minds?
Isn't there something short in the way you think this process should work?
>> 6. And how can you now assume that you are that special to them? Will
they
>> lose anything if you snobbed them or ignored them? Do you think of
yourself
>Err.. Did I say I was special to them? I don't care what people like those
think
>about me. I don't care if they lose/gain anything by being snubbed upon by
me. I
>don't think I'm any better, I just think it's more hassle to fake and I'd
rather
>not do or be exposed to it. You have to understand that faking something as
Didn't you say "na hindi mo sila kakausapin..." I could have been wrong,
but that came across to me as if you were saying that if you ignored them,
then it was to their lose. And if you really believe that they would in any
manner suffer if you ignored them, then, you must be somebody special for
them to bleed over.! But your explanation sets that straight. But you got
my juices churning again: Reason of snubbing them is to avoid faking it
yourself, right? While I don't suggest confrontation, neither do I suggest
avoidance of contact where one can always be one's own true self. Hey ....
do what you want !!
>deep-seeded as knowing a language carries over implications that they could
>easily fake other things. THAT is what bothers me. They could be faking
they
>like me, they could be faking they're friends with me.. who knows what else
they
>could be faking. No way. That kind of pretension invites trouble. I'm
getting
>out of that even before I get in.
Would you be surprised if you found out that friends do keep secrets too?
>> 7. Why are you manifesting extreme animosity towards them? Are you
really
>> sure that this is not stemming from some form of jealousy or envy or
>Jealousy? I'm jealous of plastic/fake people? That's really funny. I would
>rather admire a person who openly displays their character flaws (or
virtues)
>than ones who deny/fake who they truly are. (Unless of course, they are
truly
>evil, violent or destructive.) My friends merely feel the same way as I do,
>that's why I'm friends with them. I'm sure you choose your friends based on
the
>values they espouse that are congruent to yours.
My "opinionated definitions:" :) Inasmuch as you tie these 2 terms
together -- while there is covetousness in jealousy, there is joy in
other's well being in admiration. They can never be the same or at the
least similar. While I have raised the possibility of jealousy, I have not
asked you to admire fakery either. Obviously, there is no choice to make on
who to admire. I was just struck when you say that you "... would rather
admire...." Forget it .. I'm just nit-picking. Anywayz, I may be
different then if the rule of thumb in choosing friends were true for
everyone. I've got the best of friends, and the worst of the lot !! We
fight a lot and we clash, and we are not unanimous in the way look at
things. We have republican, democrats and apoliticals in our small group.
I am glad we fight and holler and yell, shake, rattle and roll, coz if not,
I would have the most boring of friends and a most unfruitful experience in
my life.
>> group. Why do you say that they are liars or that they deny their
ethnicity
>> when all they do is speak in an "accented english?" Why do you assume so
>> much negative thoughts out of a theory?
>Err... a hint of an accent means the nerves of their tongue have a real and
>physical pathway to the brain. People's tongues are conditioned to say
certain
>culturally/geographically common sounds. Unless you've physically
rearranged the
>connections to your brain, it's a little hard to not say the sounds you
were
>conditioned to pronounce. (Go ask any linguist/ESL major.) I know there are
>people out there who speak with accents regardless of whether they are
really
>speak another language, but I am still inclined to believe what I believe
unless
>proven otherwise.
I won't argue with you on this ...... for the simple fact that I do not have
any experience with any linguist or ESL major. By the way, so that you may
know that I am not trying to be superficially smart or intelligent, what is
ESL ? This brings to mind a situation, when I once wrote that accent is
discernible in the way we write down our ideas -- I was attacked from all
sides of the spectrum, but I still believe that this is true. And
therefore, it will be easy for me to accept your more scientific view on the
connection of the tongue to the brain via nervous system. However, my
question comes from the ease by which you brand someone a "liar."
>> What if, less agreed with you, would you have a problem coping with that?
>
>If even just one person (or none) agreed with me, it won't change my
opinion of
>it. I will still espouse that value.
"Never say never" ... sabi nila. You didn't say "never," but, para na
ring ganoon ang tunog ng "...I won't change..." Kung ganoon nga ang
mangyayari, sana naman ay dito na lamang sa isang isyung ito, at hindi sa
iba pang isyu sa buhay mo.
>Besides, when has this become an inquisition about my character/beliefs? If
this
>is the direction you want to take this discussion, we'll resort to PRIVATE
>e-mail. If you want to still discuss the issue-at-hand, post.
Not the intent I assure you. I believe I alluded to that when I said that
things were opened for discussion when you started the thread. While I
admit that I have gone beyond the object of discussion, I too got interested
by your thought processes and your intents. Talking about apples and
oranges may be fun, but delving more into the source of that delight is more
fulfilling. And since you display disapproval to direction this is going, I
will cease trying to look into your motivations and try to keep within the
object of the discussion. And no, I do not wish to resort to private
e-mail to satisfy any end. And I think, I am posting ! hehe
>To go back to the issue:
>Let me ask you, have you ever encountered someone who faked language in
your
>face? What did *you* feel about it?
Yes Paula, I've met such and much more. What did I feel? Something else
besides being upset or intimidated or insulted, or anything else near to
which I'd wish harm or ill on them. You may find this hard to believe,
since this would be our first entanglement -- while I do not totally ignore
the bad in a person, I look for the good and let that outshine his defects.
Sooner that I expect, I find myself understanding that person better, and
then communicating with him or her, and surprise !! --- even liking the
person !
What do I get out of it? Happiness -- I've overcome something that gnaws
on my spirit and well-being. Hey, I've seen things happen with friends, at
work. Two supervisors who were always at each others throat, when moved out
of that tense environment are now the best of golf buddies - inseparable. A
reactive clerk, who one day, found the guts to open up and allow us to see
inside her, and is now a balanced, lively, and productive individual. That
snob who was really the jolly fellow who kept the personal separate from
work. That worker who everybody deemed "sip-sip" when in fact he was always
scared he was gonna lose his job.
Would you deem me a fake now that tell this to you? Would you think me
unkind if I say that I see your expressed reactions to filipinos who deny
their identity or language or what not as flaws? Doesn't it boil down to
the fact that the others person knows himself better than you do? Isn't it
a fact that you allow yourself to be guided by suspicion or theories to
re-act? Exercise of a choice because it is one's right is not an indication
of freedom of the inner self. Inner freedom is attained only when one can
overcome the dark side within us, without being obligated or feeling
duty-bound not to re-act, but rather responding because it has become his
nature.
Paula, good luck and I wish you the best !!
Padillat23
Is it the recent immigrants' fault that they find themselves in a society where
they are discriminated upon or become targets of prejudice simply because of
their ethnic origin, nationality, language, or accent? Oftentimes, the most
discriminatory and prejudicial are the more assimilated immigrants or children
of immigrants. Avoiding being the victim of prejudice and discrimination by
not being too revealing or withholding information about one's personal
background is not arrogance or misrepresentation. Why pressure them for not
disclosing something about their background, especially when you just met each
other? Information about their ethnic origin or language fluency often is a
matter for survival for immigrants. How many immigrants have become victims of
hate crimes simply because they speak a different language or have an accent?
Isn't disassociating from immigrants who are simply trying to integrate
themselves into society another form of hatred against immigrants? Staying
away from these recent immigrants will create more tension and result in a more
segregated society. A really concerned and caring individual should make an
effort to reach out.
Padillat23
There are many Filipinos who sincerely believe that they no longer have a
foreign accent. They're not liars or bogus simply for making a claim.
Padillat23
Do you interrogate every person you meet?
Tansong Isda
Bgdomingo wrote:
> I don't know what the hell these guys are talking about.
> ================================================================
> Bong D
>
> The South Will Rise Again!!!
It's Cebuano, and may the south die in the racist rubble it is in!!
I heard outside of Atlanta....."don't stay in Atlanta, they're all blacks
there."
I say, I get nervous when all I see are white people!
Tansong Isda
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote:
> See, from what I read, more people agree with me than who do not. Sure!
> Condemn me for being mayabang about this subject. I don't care. At least I'm
> consistent: I am consistently annoyed at people who do this "I don't know
> (with some accent) Tagalog anymore." bullshit. Sino ba ang pinapa-impress
> nila by doing this? Ako? Kapwa Pilipinong mga kasama nila? Mga ibang-lahi
> nilang kaibigan? Huwag lang nila gagawin iyan sa harap ko dahil hindi ko
> sila kakausapin. Baka pahiyain ko pa sila. Sadista pa naman ang mga kaibigan
> ko. Sasakay pa yung mga iyon.
>
> Think about this: If they are willing to LIE and DENY their ethnicity and
> identity, WHAT ELSE could they lie about in your face? Umpisa lang yung
> language thing...
>
> -- Paula
Don't worry, to those who deny their national origin will be slapped with the
reality of how the majority of the people in this country percieves them.
They aren't white and neither are they Amerinds nor African Americans, they will
never be considered a "real" American, even if they have no idea what their
national origin's country looks like this will still be true. Even if one of
their parents is from another country, this question will always come up for
them to answer!
To deny is idiotic, because this will be forced into their psyche wherever they
go outside of the Filipino community.
Pero isipin mo, marami kang makakalimutang salitang Tagalog kung hindi mo
ginagamit, ito ay totoo....but the rest you never will. Even if you deny
vehemently.
kardo
SHHHHHHH....DON'T COCONUT ME... :-)
Paula Angeles-Leiby
animator wrote:
> You can always try to prove me wrong, but I do believe that walls,
> divisiveness, polarization, dissentions are negative forces. They certainly
> could be catalysts or movers or shapers, but human life is so short for us
> to experience the outcome of an upheaval the size of a societal magnitude.
> On the other hand, we can experience, see, and live the outcomes of the way
> we treat ourselves and others. In our own small worlds, we reap what we
> sow, in a shorter span of time vis the global. We experience the hate, the
> jealousies, the fakeries, the "annoyance" and "pet peeves" (by "pet", it
> sounds like it's something a person nurtures and cares for to grow and bring
> fruit) emptiness in our own little galaxies. AT the same time, we could
> experience the joy, the camaraderie, the pure contentment of living a
> meaningful life without the suspicions and theories that can make us
> paranoid or scared of one's own shadow. And all these flow out of the
> choices we make, the goals we set, the ideals we enshrine, the expectations
> we hold sacrosanct.
This I will agree to 100%.
I will also agree that the avenues both of us have taken in regards to this
issue are different. But from first-hand experience, the outcomes and
circumstances of my meeting and associating with people have not been as
positive as yours has been. That doesn't mean I've given up on people in
general, oh no! But on this singular issue, my decision has been made. Iba-iba
ang nag papatakbo ng utak natin, ika nga. But despite the avenue I've taken, I
believe I'm living my life as richly as I aspire, my social life is healthy, and
this has not gotten in the way of my personal and professional endeavors...
So I see no reason to detract from my chosen course.
Besides, sayang ang bandwidth.. hehehe...
--Paula
jam...@mailexcite.com
In article <199804220653...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
padil...@aol.com (Padillat23) wrote:
>
> There are many Filipinos who sincerely believe that they no longer have a
> foreign accent. They're not liars or bogus simply for making a claim.
Aksent? what aksent? Like deralats of dem? puh-leze!
jam...@mailexcite.com
R2C
animator wrote:
>
> I do not in any manner discount defined parameters and objectives of either
> teacher or student of history. I do however that to pursue along this line
> will lead us to another area for discussion, which I admittedly, am not in
> the least interested to pursue at this time. Perhaps we can revisit this at
> some later time if we happen to change upon it again. For now, I'd
> appreciate sticking to our issue at hand.
But this is related to the issue at hand. The issue at hand are
Filipinos who deny or seem to deny their heritage and/or language. I
wanted to make the point clear that one's heritage and cultural
background IS a significant part of a person, and cutting it off is like
cutting off an arm or a leg. Now there is the sub-issue of whether or
not the specific Filipinos Paula really DID or DID NOT deny their
cultural and linguistic heritage by pretending they have "forgotten"
it.
I don't know about these specific people...because I haven't met these
specific people she met or were introduced to. What I have met are
people who TRULY ARE ashamed of their backgrounds and think their native
language is stupid, and *also* people who DO HAVE a good reason for
being unable or less able to speak their native tongue. I think this is
something that needs to be judged on a case by case basis.
> Exactly my point !! I have been entertaining the idea that her expressed
> antagonism is really directed to a select person or a select few, while at
> the same time, it becomes a conclusion unto the general. I believe that our
> logic course taught us the fallacy of concluding from the few to the
> general.
like I said, this is a thing that should be judged on a case-by-case
basis.
> How's that? And sure, here guess is better than mind in the manner you put
> it !! Yet still, a guess is still a guess, right? And I believe that a
> 1,000 guesses can never be an ounce good as one simple truth.
Yeah, but in this kind of thing you have to actually invest some
personal time to get to know these people and figure out whether they
are pretending to have forgotten their native language, or if they have
a good reason for being uable or less able to speak it. I may have that
time, or may desire to do that, you may have that time or the desire to
do that. But not everyone does. We're not all social workers or high
school counselors, not everyone has enough tolerance or desire to take
time out to get to know people they find initially annoying or don't
like upon first impression.
> My question was just that -- how could have she justified a conclusion of
> supposed snubbery from another by the other's refusal to speak in the native
> tongue? How could have she afforded to render a judgement based on a
> theory? Don't we all have the right to face our accusers, be confronted
> with relevant, verifiable and valid substantiation and evidence?
She's filtering friends and associates. Everyone filters who they hang
out with and who they don't. Tell me, do you just hang-out and make
friends with just anybody you meet, especially people you find annoying
or don't like upon first impression? If you do, maybe you're better off
for it. . .but we can't all be like you.
> I am not
> asking her to like those people, and neither am I asking her change here
> outlook. I was simply inviting her to examine this expressed attitude in a
> different light. I was indirectly asking her to respect others for their
> choices, in the same manner that she demands respect for hers. I found it
> most bothersome when she mentions "embarrassing" others, over and above mere
> snubbery, to the extreme of inviting her friends to participate in the act
> of embarassing others. Isn't that kinda one-sided when one demands respect
> for one's choice?
when did she say she wanted respect from these people? She simply does
not wish to associate or be friends with them, period. She doesn't even
want her friends to introduce her to these people.
> And, you are right, we not obligated to associate with
> people we do not like. But we are obligated to treat each other with
> respect, not behemence.
While it may be PC to treat everyone we meet with some degree of
respect, there IS NO SUCH *OBLIGATION*.
And you know what, I'm sick of limiting this issue to Paula's personal
experiences, like you seem to want to do. This is NOT just a "Paula
Issue", this is a Filipino issue. Like it or not, there are Filipinos
who exist who do "fake it", or have indeed become less able to speak the
native tongue due to lack of practice--by their own choice. I've seen
this happen in my family, and in the homes of other Filipinos I've
visited. Heck, my own sister *stopped* speaking Bisaya cold, 1 MONTH
after we moved to California. I can understand the desire to fit in
better with other relatives who were born here or have been here
longer. But what I can never understand is the desire TO NOT speak the
native language AT HOME, when the only people there are your parents and
your siblings, or other relatives WHO speak and *are* speaking the
native tongue. It's a bit annoying, but I've learned to tolerate it. .
.she is a sister after all, but that does NOT mean anyone can just learn
to tolerate this sort of behaviour. I have my own "pet peeves", and I
can understand someone else's pet peeves--and don't you give me that
bullshit analysis about the words "pet peeve"--it's obviously a figure
of speech. There are things I know I most likely will never learn to
tolerate. . .ie: gangsta rap, body piercing, etc.
In closing, I'd like to say, Paula. . .I understand your position, and
understand that this issue is NOT limited to you like animinator makes
it seem.
R2C
kardo wrote:
>
> ManongKiko wrote:
>
> > Binuang man kanang imo Bay. Nalipong tingali siya kung hain ang mas nindot ug
> > sinultihan - Tagalog o Cebuano ba.
> >
> > Buweno aduna akoy amigo dinhi nga Kapangpangan. Ingon siya nga mianhi siya
> > dinhi sa States nga onse anyos lang siya. Dayon mibalibad nga dili kuno siya
> > kamao mag Tagalog. Nakasabot ako kay Kapangpangan man siya ug unya lahi man ang
> > Tagalog. Pero nakaadto ako sa ilang balay usa niana ka adlaw. Diyos ko,
> > makasulti diay ug Tagalog ang demonyong dako kay nahulog siya sa ilang hagdan
> > ug miingon "Putang Inang hagdan na ito!"
>
haskang bino-anga ana, bay! Nakaninumdum noon ko sa kadtong gamay pa
'ko.
Ni-sakay man mi ug barko na padulong sa Manila, gikan sa Cebu. Murag
over-loaded gamay ang barko. Daghan kaayong tao.
Unya, pag-abot sa Manila, hala daghan kaayo gusto muguwa sa usa ka gamay
na pultahan. . .tulud, tulud, ho-ot kaayo's tanan. Ni-a bitaw nang usa
ka Bisaya na ni shagit ug: "O dahan, dahan lang. . .baka mayroong
mapisat!!!" Haskang kataw-ana!!!
--
kard...@hotmail.com
In article <6hmh67$qdj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
jam...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> In article <199804220653...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> padil...@aol.com (Padillat23) wrote:
> >
> > There are many Filipinos who sincerely believe that they no longer have a
> > foreign accent. They're not liars or bogus simply for making a claim.
>
> Aksent? what aksent? Like deralats of dem? puh-leze!
Aksident?! Maraming aksident?! Mabuti na lang nakatawag ka kaagad ng polis!
Paula Angeles-Leiby
R2C wrote:
> In closing, I'd like to say, Paula. . .I understand your position, and
> understand that this issue is NOT limited to you like animinator makes
> it seem.
Hehehe.. I knew that, and darned, you did a mighty fine job at it too. But I knew
from the get-go that this was going to be a big, nasty issue. Besides, any
question regarding the conscious "forgetting" of any aspect of culture while in a
foreign land will stir dissent (and defense) for the reasons behind such a
decision...
No matter what type of rapport volatile issues create, it's good that there is
rapport. It'll help all of us reaffirm what we value in our culture.
Mabuhay and as always, salamat.
-- Paula
Limahong
Sonny Mendoza wrote:
>
>Paki tanong nga ho sa mga taga kunsulado kung tayong mga
filipinos na walang income from manila ay dapat magbayad
ng tax?????
i've heard filipinos in vancouver have more culture than
yogurt....
R2C
Tansong Isda wrote:
>
> left click your pointer down here for free 3dstudio plugins.....
> might find some skin for your lady's rear-end...
> Trinity Animation and Visual Effects
thanks for the link. and no, that was not the rear end of the female
body mesh that comes free with 3DS Max. . .I sneaked into an effects
studio and 3D-Scanned my butt, just to moon renowl. really. honest!!!
R2C
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote:
>
> question regarding the conscious "forgetting" of any aspect of culture while in a
> foreign land will stir dissent (and defense) for the reasons behind such a
> decision...
Yup, issues like this always stir some controversy and debate here.
This is just the latest one. At least it didn't turn into a vicious
flame-war...(not that I wouldn't have enjoyed that :).
> Mabuhay and as always, salamat.
no problem...
--
paul...@aol.com
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98042...@saul4.u.washington.edu>,
Magno Cabanayan <mca...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
actually they can speak tagalog but now they are bulol
Paula Angeles-Leiby
R2C wrote:
> Yup, issues like this always stir some controversy and debate here.
> This is just the latest one. At least it didn't turn into a vicious
> flame-war...(not that I wouldn't have enjoyed that :).
Nah, ginusto ko naman discussion e. Pero alam ko naman na game ka pag lechon-an. =)
Anyhoo, we could start another (potentially) volatile discussion basta ba the topic can
be intelligently debated. I have an idea pero... Hay naku! Ako na naman ang may pakana!
Pag pahingahin muna natin ang mga nais mag-debate....
"Lite" muna ang posting ko... for now.. hehe.. Have a great day!
-- Paula
Troy R Gannod
HI PAULA,
I saw your post and you're right. Halos lahat ng mga kaibigan kong
pilipino hindi na marunong mag-tagalog. But the sad part is, we all
came here the same year. Pero ako, I still speak tagalog with my
parents, other siblings, and to other filipinos. But I have to admit, I
do forget some tagalog words pero hindi ko parin nakakalimutan ang mga
tradition. I'm not ashame of telling everybody that I am bilingual,
infact I speak three languages, tagalog, english, and spanish (just a
little bit). So, all I can say is I just feel so sorry for those kids
who don't know how to speak tagalog anymore. Siguro, they are ashame or
dahil nasa America na sila, they think that they don't need their
native language. Face it, lahat naman ng pilipino marunong mag-english.
Johnny "Tubby" Thor
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353B6BCA...@techw.com>...
>
>Note: If you really want to know that I'm not lying about my claims, CALL
ME...
>I'll prove it.
>
Call you? Wow! Puwede ba kitang phone pal? Masarap ka bang magluto? Email
me.
JT
MasarapKumain
Johnny "Tubby" Thor
Paula Angeles-Leiby wrote in message <353CCABE...@techw.com>...
>
>A lot of people agree with this value ('value' meaning 'a belief') that we
don't
>like people who pretend/fake/deny. There is nothing tyrannical about
sharing
>that value. I never said it was right or wrong either.
>
Paula,
Are you and Jacqueline Hyde one and the same person?
JT
ED LIPPIETT
raising my two children one 7 born in the PI and one 5 botn in SF i try to
keep them up on tagalog. The little i know that is ,I fell it is important to
keep them up on there culture as much as possible living in PA not many
Fillipinos around here but the fact is they are part A,merician part Fillipino
and i feel it is right they know both life styles.
coolbean wrote:
> Hello, I am a senior sociology and anthropology major at
> Swarthmore College currently writing my thesis on child rearing practices
> among Filipino American families. I am interested in how Filipino culture
> is passed on and retained (or not retained) among Fil Am children.
> Ultimately I guess I am trying to understand the multifaceted aspects of
> the Filipino American identity. I understand this varies from person to
> person, and I am particularly interested in these variations (instances in
> peoples' lives that cause them to have a different sense of identity
> (i.e., multi-racial Fil Ams, being raised in a large Filipino community in
> the U.S., knowing a Filipino dialect). I saw your post here and have been
> wondering why kids do this too. I'm an American-born Filipina who has
> done a lot to try to learn Tagalog (not being taught it growing up). I
> think language has a huge effect on learning culture, so I also why
> parents want their kids to grow up with Filipino values, but don't teach
> them the language. I understand that many don't want them to deal with
> the hardships of racism because of their accent or stuff like that, but
> lots of culture is inherent in the language, so I think that would be more
> important. I was wondering, if you don't mind, if i could use your
> comment in my section on language in my thesis. If not, that's ok. And
> if you have any more comments about this or any suggestions, I would
> appreciate it a lot.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Anna Yangco
>
> In article <353A181B...@nospam.techw.com>, twp...@nospam.techw.com
> --
> Anna Yangco '98
> Swarthmore College
> http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ryangco
> "Bustin' it and Survivin'" - John Starks
MARtin
Troy R Gannod wrote in message ...
:HI PAULA,
:
::who don't know how to speak tagalog anymore. Siguro, they are
ashame or
:dahil nasa America na sila, they think that they don't need their
:native language. Face it, lahat naman ng pilipino marunong
mag-english.
----------------------------
Yes, tat's rayt! Eben da karabaws in da Pilipins ispik inglis. : )
Paula Angeles-Leiby
Johnny "Tubby" Thor wrote:
> Call you? Wow! Puwede ba kitang phone pal? Masarap ka bang magluto? Email
> me.
Aba sige ba! Mahirap nga lang maka-singit between tele-babad and internet. So
far, hindi pa naman sinisikmura ang asawa ko sa luto ko.. Magaling yata ako
magpakulo ng tubig! Specialty ko 'yun! ;-)
-- Paula
Padillat23
Who defines what a Filipino should be? Should we conform to the expectations
of some *politically correct* Filipinos? What then is the typical or average
Filipino? We have to recognize that Filipinos are a very diverse group of
people. The Philippines is already composed of several large indigenous Malay
ethno-linguistic groups. It's more accurate to refer to the Philippines as a
nations-state or a nation-in-the-making. The continuing emigration to other
countries or diaspora is expectedly creating more diversity rather than a more
homogeneous nation. Who is to judge whether that is good or bad? Who is to
judge who is a fake Filipino? Isn't that being too arrogant or imposing?
Padillat23
Sino ang mga inaapi? Who are being exploited?
kardo
MARtin wrote:
> Yes, tat's rayt! Eben da karabaws in da Pilipins ispik inglis. : )
Ano naman yang pinagsasabi mo? Noong nakatira pa ako sa Pilipinas,
napanood ko sa TV ang isang pelikula ni Chiquito. Ang saydkik niya ay
ang kanyang kalabaw na marunong magsalita. Pero ang salita ng kalabaw
ay Tagalog, hindi Ingles. Walang kalabaw na marunong magingles sa
Pilipinas. ;-)
Tansong Isda
ED LIPPIETT wrote:
> Anna I have been divorced from a Fillipina for about three years now . i am
> raising my two children one 7 born in the PI and one 5 botn in SF i try to
> keep them up on tagalog. The little i know that is ,I fell it is important to
> keep them up on there culture as much as possible living in PA not many
> Fillipinos around here but the fact is they are part A,merician part Fillipino
> and i feel it is right they know both life styles.
I grew up in the Philippines with an American father, growing up there gave me
both culture, of course I had to weave through the culture to differentiate w/c is
Filipino and American origin. I am mostly proud of my Filipino heritage.
Since there is really very little American-culture, unless you use Amerinds and
African-American culture (since African-American lost most of the African
heritage, a sub-culture developed w/c is uniquely American), other parts of the
American culture are European so I can't say it is American.
Good luck in keeping them Filipino.
Tansong Isda
kardo wrote:
Hahahaha......
Ang komiti ng Makabayang Kalabaw ay pumasa ng ulat na hindi sila
magsasalita ng Inglis!! Nabasa ko ito!!
Hehehehehe......
Tansong Isda
Padillat23 wrote:
But you can't deny that there are such persons, who refused to be identified as
Filipinos....they are fakes!!! I have no idea why they are bitter about their
national origin. Throughout the years I have met some like these. Strange....
MARtin
Tansong Isda wrote in message
<35422A7C...@linkonline.net>...
---------------------------
Bakit tayo mayroong sinasabing "karabaw english," kung hindi
marunong mag-inglis ang mga kalabaw? : )
Tansong Isda
MARtin wrote:
> Bakit tayo mayroong sinasabing "karabaw english," kung hindi
> marunong mag-inglis ang mga kalabaw? : )
Bago lang itong patakaran, dati-dati, mayroon silang ispoks-kalabaw na
Inglis ang salita.
hindi nga lang nakapag-aral, bawal daw ang mga kalabaw sa iskul.
:-) hehehehe
MARtin
Tansong Isda wrote in message
----------------------
Tutoo bang kalabaw ang nagturo ng inglis kay ERAP?
; )
Tansong Isda
MARtin wrote:
Ang kumite ng Makabayang Kalabaw ay nag-pupumilit na wala silang
kinalalaman kay ERAP...bwahahahaha......
this is ...hihihihi...man, patay ako dito....
I hope he is not watching, uuwi panaman ako next month.... hehehehe
MARtin
Tansong Isda wrote in message
----------------------
Ang ibig mong sabihin, ikinakatwa ng kumite na sila ang nagturo ng
inglis kay ERAP? Anbilibabol!!!
; )
jpb
kardo wrote:
> MARtin wrote:
> > Yes, tat's rayt! Eben da karabaws in da Pilipins ispik inglis. : )
>
> Ano naman yang pinagsasabi mo? Noong nakatira pa ako sa Pilipinas,
> napanood ko sa TV ang isang pelikula ni Chiquito. Ang saydkik niya ay
> ang kanyang kalabaw na marunong magsalita. Pero ang salita ng kalabaw
> ay Tagalog, hindi Ingles. Walang kalabaw na marunong magingles sa
> Pilipinas. ;-)
Eh asan galing yung term na "Inglis karabaw?"