The raw beef legend
Soressa
Hi all,
The consumption of raw beef by Ethiopians has been the subject of
sensational western journalism to the extent it was photographed as a
savage ritual and published in some western magazines. There is nothing
demeaning about eating raw beef. The Japanese eat Sushi (raw fish) and
Europeans themselves eat rare stake which is barely cooked. The
difference in hygeinic risk between rare stake and Ethiopian "Kitfo" is
only in the imagination. Ethiopians eat Kitfo not because they are
ignorant of the hygeinic risks, but because the consumption of "Kitfo"
and "Kurt" has some legendary significance. There are two that I am
aware of. Some people consider it as a rememberance of warriors who had
to eat raw meat when their "sinq" run out during one of the many wars.
Others think that it started as a preparation for guerilla war. That is,
the warrior can hide anywhere without living traces of smoke and fire and
attack unexpectedly. That is, in the face of defeat they still wanted
ways of avoiding total surrender. This has some appeal to eat. Where I
was born, children are not allowed to eat raw beef until they are about
14-16; until they are old enough to take "Yekoso medhanit", and there is
no pressure on girls to eat raw beef even if they are past that age. This
may also imply some realtionship with wars.
Is there a hygienic risk? Yes. Is there a hygienic risk when people
smoke? Yes. The risk is very minimal where vet's certify the health of
animals and where the abattoirs follow strict hygeinic practices. The
choice is yours, but don't let other people's opinion of culture decide
it for you.
Yenantew,
Soressa.
Soressa
Soressa
Sorry for wasting your time, but I need to do some corrections. The
modified words are underlined.
Soressa <Kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz> wrote:
>Hi all,
>The consumption of raw beef by Ethiopians has been the subject of
>sensational western journalism to the extent it was photographed as a
>savage ritual and published in some western magazines. There is nothing
>demeaning about eating raw beef. The Japanese eat Sushi (raw fish) and
>Europeans themselves eat rare steak which is barely cooked. The
~~~~~
>difference in hygienic risk between rare steak and Ethiopian "Kitfo" is
~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>only in the imagination. Ethiopians eat Kitfo not because they are
>ignorant of the hygienic risks, but because the consumption of "Kitfo"
~~~~~~~~
>and "Kurt" has some legendary significance. There are two that I am
>aware of. Some people consider it as a rememberance of warriors who had
>to eat raw meat when their "sinq" run out during one of the many wars.
>Others think that it started as a preparation for guerilla war. That is,
>the warrior can hide anywhere without living traces of smoke and fire and
>attack unexpectedly. That is, in the face of defeat they still wanted
>ways of avoiding total surrender. This has some appeal to it. Where I
~~
>was born, children are not allowed to eat raw beef until they are about
>14-16; until they are old enough to take "Yekoso medhanit", and there is
>no pressure on girls to eat raw beef even if they are past that age. This
>may also imply some realtionship with wars.
> Is there a hygienic risk? Yes. Is there a hygienic risk when people
>smoke? Yes. The risk is very minimal where vet's certify the health of
>animals and where the abattoirs follow strict hyienic practices. The
Capt. Nemo
Soressa wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> The consumption of raw beef by Ethiopians has been the subject of
> sensational western journalism to the extent it was photographed as a
> savage ritual and published in some western magazines. There is nothing
> demeaning about eating raw beef. The Japanese eat Sushi (raw fish) and
> difference in hygeinic risk between rare stake and Ethiopian "Kitfo" is
> and "Kurt" has some legendary significance.
and also because it tastes good ;)
--
---------nemo--------------------------existence and uniqueness...
http://www.ctr.columbia.edu/~nemo
faisal hassan
On 20 Oct 1996, Soressa wrote:
Mudane Soressa:
I have been waiting anyone to tackle this important tradition of yours
that you have explained its significant to you as an Ethiopian. However,
Most of Ethiopians don't eat 'Raw meat' because it is not part of their
traditional food. For example, in you writing you said that
Ethiopians enjoy eating 'raw meat' What did you meant? did you meant
'Amharas'? Or what group or nationality or ethnic
group in Ethiopia you were refering?
What is the difference between 'raw meat' and 'raw fish'? I happen to
believe that they are not the same in the eyes of many civilized
societies such as Somalis and other African communities a cross the
continent of Africa and beyond. Perhaps, you were trying to convey the
impression of cultural differences. Well, eating raw meat is indeed a
barbaric behaviour. Whether you recognize or not? I am sure that you will
disagree with me about this issue. However, You and your ethnic group
should acknowledge that there is no difference between a man and a
beast-in this context of eating the same raw meat-here both enjoy 'Raw
meat' so, what's the difference? Habar dugaag and human race? Any idea?
Nabad
aka Cune.
Soressa
faisal hassan <fha...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
>
>
>On 20 Oct 1996, Soressa wrote:
>
> Mudane Soressa:
> I have been waiting anyone to tackle this important tradition of yours
>that you have explained its significant to you as an Ethiopian. However,
>Most of Ethiopians don't eat 'Raw meat' because it is not part of their
>traditional food. For example, in you writing you said that
>Ethiopians enjoy eating 'raw meat' What did you meant? did you meant
>'Amharas'? Or what group or nationality or ethnic
>group in Ethiopia you were refering?
Do you have any a hung ups about Amharas? Ethiopians to me is anyone
within the geographical boarder and those who claim Ethiopia as their
homeland. If my article misrepresented you, I am sincerely sorry.
> What is the difference between 'raw meat' and 'raw fish'? I happen to
>believe that they are not the same in the eyes of many civilized
>societies such as Somalis and other African communities a cross the
>continent of Africa and beyond.
=======================================================================
Some of this civilisation that rained in Somalia may have drizzled in
Ethiopia too, you know! Unless you are suffering from the brain
equivalent of Pierre Robin Syndrome, I don't really know how you can deny
the facts.
=======================================================================
Perhaps, you were trying to convey the
>impression of cultural differences. Well, eating raw meat is indeed a
>barbaric behaviour. Whether you recognize or not? I am sure that you will
>disagree with me about this issue. However, You and your ethnic group
>should acknowledge that there is no difference between a man and a
>beast-in this context of eating the same raw meat-here both enjoy 'Raw
>meat' so, what's the difference? Habar dugaag and human race? Any idea?
========================================================================
You realy came up with a winner here! Let me tell you something for
nothing! The human race is above other animals not through difference in
diet but because of something on the neck, between the ears! Now, there
are many other mammals and birds which eat fish. How are these people
who eat raw fish 'more civilised' according to your argument? Or don't
they teach biology in your civilised society? How about monkeys eating
bananas, eh? Do you suggest we cook our banana to be more civilised than
a monkey? Someone once said: "Once you open your mouth, you wipe out any
doubt about your ugnorance." Mr Faisal, I am not learning from you much
so I won't be responding to your future posts if I can help it. Don't
lose sleep over what I eat and how I eat it. You are not going to foot
the medical bills. Let me be!
Bye,
Soressa.
>Nabad
>aka Cune.
promod project
faisal hassan wrote:
>
> On 20 Oct 1996, Soressa wrote:
>
> Mudane Soressa:
> I have been waiting anyone to tackle this important tradition of yours
> that you have explained its significant to you as an Ethiopian.
> However, Most of Ethiopians don't eat 'Raw meat' because it is not
> part of their traditional food.
culture of more than 75 percent of Ethiopians eating raw meat is
a delicacy. (A simple calculation will take you there. Oromos and
Amharas make about 65 percent of the Ethiopian population. Add to that
Tigreans and say Guraghes who will make more than 10 percent together.
You may use the 1984(or 1994if you find it) Ethiopian census or the CIA
year book data to confirm my calculation.)
BTW the only Ethiopian group I KNOW OF whose culture excludes raw beef
is the Somali. So it is pretty safe to say most Ethiopians.
have a good day,
Araya
faisal hassan
On 24 Oct 1996, Soressa wrote:
=
> Do you have any a hung ups about Amharas? Ethiopians to me is anyone
> within the geographical boarder and those who claim Ethiopia as their
> homeland. If my article misrepresented you, I am sincerely sorry.
Mudane Soressa:
To be honest with you, I do not have any problem with the 'Amharas'.
However, The 'Amharas' that's elite have brought my Somali people into
misery. Do I hate them. No, I don't. However, Mudane Soressa, Ethiopia to me
is socially construct state which is needed to be revisited by the African
people. By African people, I mean, Different ethnic groups that Ethiopia is
composed off. Therefore, Do I call myself Ethiopian? To me Ethiopian is a
symbol of oppression dominated by 'Amhara elite'-I am Somali and I call
home Westren Somali. I think the right word to use is 'African' not
Ethiopian? I know you came back and argue that African is a geographical
entity but not an identity? Well, this is also socially constructed
phenomena by those who brought the mess we are in today. Enough about
Ethiopia? Allow me to turn to your comments.
> Some of this civilisation that rained in Somalia may have drizzled in
> Ethiopia too, you know! Unless you are suffering from the brain
> equivalent of Pierre Robin Syndrome, I don't really know how you can deny
> the facts.
I fully agree with those ancient civilazations in case of point
zenj in the land of punt which is now Westren Somalia, Northern Somalia,
Somalia, and Djibuti. On the other hand there were your civilazation of
Axum? We, both agree here. Do you?
> ========================================================================
> You realy came up with a winner here! Let me tell you something for
> nothing! The human race is above other animals not through difference in
> diet but because of something on the neck, between the ears! Now, there
> are many other mammals and birds which eat fish. How are these people
> who eat raw fish 'more civilised' according to your argument? Or don't
> they teach biology in your civilised society? How about monkeys eating
> bananas, eh? Do you suggest we cook our banana to be more civilised than
> a monkey? Someone once said: "Once you open your mouth, you wipe out any
> doubt about your ugnorance." Mr Faisal, I am not learning from you much
> so I won't be responding to your future posts if I can help it. Don't
> lose sleep over what I eat and how I eat it. You are not going to foot
> the medical bills. Let me be!
> Bye,
> Soressa.
You are doing excellent job? Don't run away? A word of advice there are
tough world out there. I intend to stay here and sell my view of the world.
Do you have problem with that?
War Nabad
aka Cune
faisal hassan
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, promod project wrote:
> How do you define most? 50 percent, 75 percent or 90 percent? In the
> culture of more than 75 percent of Ethiopians eating raw meat is
> a delicacy. (A simple calculation will take you there. Oromos and
> Amharas make about 65 percent of the Ethiopian population. Add to that
> Tigreans and say Guraghes who will make more than 10 percent together.
> You may use the 1984(or 1994if you find it) Ethiopian census or the CIA
> year book data to confirm my calculation.)
Mudane Araya:
You know it very well that Amharas plus their assimilated folks they
are not less than 3 or 4 million? Where are your evidence that Amharas
and Oromos are 65% of population? Guraghas? The Guraghas are only found
in Addis abbaba, the comic people? where else do they live in planet
earth? Tigrean are estimate about 5 million or less? Oromos are signifant
numbers about 20 to 25 million? Somalis in Westren Somalia are about 12
to 15 million. There are also Araf, and wolos? So afterall ethiopia is
not only Amharas and their assimilate folks? CIA culculation? is this the data you
depend too much? After the USA election, you will see another data?
Would you then also accept that data too? Give me a break?
> BTW the only Ethiopian group I KNOW OF whose culture excludes raw beef
> is the Somali. So it is pretty safe to say most Ethiopians.
> have a good day,
> Araya
What about Oromos, afar, wolos, Tigrean, almost half of them? Your
culculation is wrong? I say to you, good luck with your diet of 'Raw
eating'. However, There are others in Ethiopia, in fact, majority of
people who don't eat this 'raw meat' of yours. Don't get me wrong there
is nothing wrong eating it? You like go for it?
Nabad
Cune.
promod project
It seems to me you are very ill informed about the demography of
Ethiopia. I will provide you here with a summary of the 1984 Census.
(The 1994 Census is partly released but it has yet to be published
intoto. Whatever is released reveals a similar pattern.)
ETHIOPIA: Population distribution by Religious groups
Religion Number %
Christian 23,106,613 60.48
Orthodox 20,637,362 54.02
Protestant 2,094,371 5.48
Catholic 374,880 0.98
Muslim 12,569,995 32.90
Traditional
Religion 2,213,665 5.79
Christian Muslim
Addis Ababa 1254 (88.1%) 101 (11.4%)
Arssi 733 (44.1%) 923 (55.5%)
Bale 193 (24.8%) 544 (69.7%)
Gamo Gofa 622 (49.4%) 23 ( 1.9%)
Gojjam 3103 (94.8%) 120 ( 3.7%)
Gondar 2732 (90.5%) 239 ( 7.9%)
Hararge 407 ( 9.7%) 3765 (89.8%)
Illubabor 453 (46.7%) 444 (45.7%)
Keffa 984 (40.0%) 1215 (49.3%)
Shewa 6039 (75.3%) 1877 (23.4%)
Sidamo 2272 (59.7%) 333 ( 8.7%)
Wellega 2109 (85.1%) 331 (13.4%)
Wello 1641 (43.8%) 2089 (55.7%)
Population Distribution by Ethnic Group*
Ethnic Group Number %
Oromo 12,387,664 29.068
Amara 12,055,250 28.288
Tigrawi** 4,149,697 9.737
Gurage 1,855,905 4.355
Somali 1,613,394 3.786
Sidama 1,261,721 2.961
Welayta 1,092,958 2.565
Ethiopian Total 42,616,876
* Only the seven groups that passed the million mark are given here.
**including those in Eritrea.
From the 1984 census pubished by the Ethiopian Commision for Census
Dec,1991.
selam leityoPya!
Araya Amsalu
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
>From the 1984 census pubished by the Ethiopian Commision for Census
>Dec,1991.
Selam Araya:
Please, do not quote anything from the Dergue Administration. You damn
well know that we Somalis were fighting with the Mengistu regime and that
therefore all the data compiled by such an administration is a piece of
garbage. Moreover, written Ethiopian history is also a piece of garbage.
As I have learned, there is **history** and **feudal history** in
Ethiopia. All the history written about Ethiopia is full of lies
concocted by the ruling classes. So, it seems now, that indegineous
people are de-writing the "feudal history" written by Haile, Mingistu,
and Menelik. It is not yet over.
Regards,
Udub.
faisal hassan
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, promod project wrote:
This is the real statistics? Christians in Ethiopia 65%? My statistics
here shows that christians in Ethiopia are about 23%? Amharas are equal
to Oromos in terms of number? Give me a break? Somalis are I million in
Westren Somalia? Give me a break? This proves that you are an Amhara
individual? Honest is essential?
get a life?
Cune
promod project
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN wrote:
>
> In article <327132...@pitt.edu> promod project <ams...@pitt.edu> writes:
>
> >From the 1984 census pubished by the Ethiopian Commision for Census
> >Dec,1991.
>
> Selam Araya:
>
> Please, do not quote anything from the Dergue Administration. You damn
> well know that we Somalis were fighting with the Mengistu regime and
> that therefore all the data compiled by such an administration is a
> piece of garbage.
I expected people will come to debate about the credibility of the
census. I do not think I am willing to participate in such a debate
for the fourth time in cyberspace. The only reason I posted the data
was to provide a basis for people like Faissal who may not have much
information on the demography of Ethiopia. Though I am not ready to
engage in a long drawn debate on the issue if the 1984 census I would
like to make few comments.
I believe the 1984 census is the most precise information on the
demography of Ethiopia save the 1994 census which is not released
completely. The Census is administered by the Comission for Population
and Housing Census. The census is the closest we can get to a head count
in our country with its limited resources. I understand in Tigray and
Eritrea most of the work was done by projection based on the data
collected from the areas under the government control. And in the case
of Somalis I believe the fact many have fled to Somalia due to the 1979
war would have resulted in the underestimation of the Somali population.
We will wait and see the 1994 census results.(I have not seen the 1994
census results for Region 5 yet.)
Jalala, give me a reason why the Dergue would want to make the number of
the Amharas and the Oromos look the same.
Even with its shortcomings, it is a very good starting point for the
purpose of a basic understanding of Ethiopian demography for people
like Faisal. Here are some points to compare and contrast:
-Faisal thinks Guraghes are very small in number and live only in
Addis. Guraghes actually live everywhere in Ethiopian cities and
are among the top 5 largest groups in Ethiopia.
-Faisal thinks Amaras(and their assimilated people) are 3-4 million.
The Amharas are withous question the second largest group in
Ethiopia.
-Faisal thinks Somalis are 10-15 million. Evenif we say the census
underestimates Somali's by as much as 300 percent Somalis will be
at most 6.5 million.
BTW I have the 1994 Census results for 4 states; Addis Ababa, Amhara,
Harari and Tigray. I did not post it since without the data for Oromia
Southern State, Somali and Afar it would not make sense. If anyone has
the data for these states let me know. We can put them together into
a summary.
selam leityoPya!
Araya Amsalu
P.S: Muhammed, people in my neck-of the woods were fighting the Dergue
too,(they were and still are fighting against TPLF too) but I see the
census differently. I do not reject everything Dergue did, rather I
consider each action in context and for its merit.
smk
faisal hassan <fha...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
>
>
>On 24 Oct 1996, Soressa wrote:
>
>=
>> Do you have any a hung ups about Amharas? Ethiopians to me is anyone
>> within the geographical boarder and those who claim Ethiopia as their
>> homeland. If my article misrepresented you, I am sincerely sorry.
>Mudane Soressa:
>
> To be honest with you, I do not have any problem with the 'Amharas'.
>However, The 'Amharas' that's elite have brought my Somali people into
>misery. Do I hate them. No, I don't. However, Mudane Soressa, Ethiopia to me
>is socially construct state which is needed to be revisited by the African
>people. By African people, I mean, Different ethnic groups that Ethiopia is
>composed off. Therefore, Do I call myself Ethiopian? To me Ethiopian is a
>symbol of oppression dominated by 'Amhara elite'-I am Somali and I call
>home Westren Somali. I think the right word to use is 'African' not
>Ethiopian?
Wise! If the use of Ethiopian misrepresents you, imagine how many people
will cry foul if I wrote an Ethiopian dish as an African dish.
=========================================================================
Not with all your views; only the ones whihch degrade traditions as
barbaric because they happen in some part of Africa and venere a similar
one as civilised because it happens outside Africa. Putting Ethiopian
tradition down will not add to how people view your own. You don't get a
high standing in your community because you bash your neighbours, got it?
Bye again.
Eliab G Tarkghen
faisal wrote
> here shows that christians in Ethiopia are about 23%?
Amharas are equal
> to Oromos in terms of number? Give me a break? Somalis are I million in
> Westren Somalia? Give me a break?
Why are people responding to this idiot? By now everyone should know
what this guy is up to, it is simple nonsense. Araya please do not wast
time with this ignorant thing. You are an Amhara :)
> Cune
>
>
faisal hassan
On 27 Oct 1996, smk wrote:
My African broter. Your points are well taken.
Nabad
faisal hassan.
faisal hassan
On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Eliab G Tarkghen wrote:
>
> Why are people responding to this idiot? By now everyone should know
> what this guy is up to, it is simple nonsense. Araya please do not wast
Eliab G Tarkghen:
This idiot is makes sense to many readers around the world? And you cannot
do nothing about it? can you?
Nabad
Cune.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article faisal hassan <fha...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> writes:
>
>Eliab G Tarkghen:
>
>This idiot is makes sense to many readers around the world? And you cannot
>do nothing about it? can you?
>Nabad
>Cune.
Dear Faisal:
Please ignore those whose only aim here is to insult you. I can not
understand why anybody should endow himself with the right to call you
"idiot".
Regards,
Udub.
Zewdie Bachore
In article <54rmk0$i...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
>
>In article <327132...@pitt.edu> promod project <ams...@pitt.edu> writes:
>
>>From the 1984 census pubished by the Ethiopian Commision for Census
>>Dec,1991.
>
>
>Selam Araya:
(stuff deleted)
> Moreover, written Ethiopian history is also a piece of garbage.
Mr Udub,
Any blanket statement is bound to be false and this one is worse than I have
ever heard. You must come out with concerete argument, cite specific events
in Ethiopian history and indicate according to which writer you think or talks
there was any 'lies', if at all. Until you do this, such statements are not
more than a callous, reckless and provocative statement which will not
promote discussion and understanding of our history but shouting and
screaming.
No country, even those which regained their "independence" some 2, 30, or
40 years ago (or which might do so in the future) would want to be called
without history or possessing only lies. Ethiopia may not have been a
democracy for three thousand years, as some romantics in reverse would have
expected, but it has a history which equals in all respects with one of the
richest in the world. And all that did not have to be nor could it have been
'positive' , whatever it may mean.
Whether one comes from the Somali, Oromo, Amhara, etc, one must
break out of one's prejudices and start to see everyting in perspective,
if possible critically. Perpetuating prejudice will only lead to a vicious
circle of poverty, underdevelopment and civil war from which no one
gains.
Zewudie
smek...@cctr.umkc.edu
> In article <54rmk0$i...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says.
>
>> Moreover, written Ethiopian history is also a piece of garbage.
>>As I have learned, there is **history** and **feudal history** in
>>Ethiopia. All the history written about Ethiopia is full of lies
>>concocted by the ruling classes. So, it seems now, that indegineous
>>people are de-writing the "feudal history" written by Haile, Mingistu,
>>and Menelik. It is not yet over.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Udub.
>
Mr. Udub - (Mohammud Hussien),
Now, you have crossed the line. We have been listening to what you were
saying for the past two months and now we would like to tell you this,
you are WRONG!!! Did you say "written Ethiopian history is also a
piece of garbage?" In your dreams!!!
Listen Deboch,
Ethiopia's pride in its heritage/history is very much alive even after years
of up and downs. With the exception of Egypt, Ethiopia presents one of the
oldest written history in Africa and in the world.
From Lucy (a 3.5 million years old archeological discovery of our time) to
Moses, from queen of Sheba and king Solomon to the Italian invasion during
WWI and WWII, Ethiopia has made one of the most fascinating history on
earth that has no match to this day.
Ranka, one of the most famous European historian said, "history is a
philosophy teaching by example." Ethiopian/Abyssinian history has been
around for the past 4000 years without no inturruption and calling it
"a piece of garbage" is nothing but an ignorant/jealous feeling and
deserves no attention at all.
I am sure you saw Fatuma Roba this past August as she became one of the
first ever African women to win an Olympic marathon by the greatest margin
ever (more than two minutes.) My people (Oromos, Amharas, Tigres, Hadyas
Gurages etc...) were very proud and it was another historical record
written in their history book. Now, do you think that was another
"piece of garbage" too? History begun in the great rift valley of Ethiopia
where the Nile also starts its long journey to the great sea. Ethiopia's
history is as old as the human race itself.
Shahn
Belete Muturo
In article <54rmk0$i...@portal.gmu.edu>
mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu (MUHAMMED HUSSEIN) writes:
>Selam Araya:
>
>Please, do not quote anything from the Dergue Administration. You damn
>well know that we Somalis were fighting with the Mengistu regime and that
>therefore all the data compiled by such an administration is a piece of
>As I have learned, there is **history** and **feudal history** in
>Ethiopia. All the history written about Ethiopia is full of lies
Your statement above " ... written Ethiopian history is also a piece
of garbage" is out of critical boundary. There are many historical records
that are genuine proofs of the heroic achievements of the Ethiopian people.
The Story of Aksum Obelisk that I am currently reposting from Richard
Pankhurst's that appeared on the October Issue of Ethiopian Review is part of
the recorded history of the Ethiopian People. The Victory of Adwa over the
heavily armed Italian Invaders was one of such accomplishments of our people.
Granted, there were times when fruits of our peoples' victories were grabbed
and used by the unpopular dictators who attempted to rewrite the history of
our peoples as the product of their "heroic" sacrifices.In any case,Ethiopian
history is NOT "a piece of garbage". I am glad you did not post this message
in the moderated group. This could have turned many Ethiopianists off easily.
I wouldn't be surprized if the extremists come crying "enemies of Ethiopia".
I believe your statement in this message was totally uncalled for. I wish
you could apologize to our readers for an overly generalized remark that
reduced the history of a nation to " a piece of garbage"
Regards,
Belete Muturo
>Regards,
>Udub.
faisal hassan
> I am glad you did not post this message
> in the moderated group. This could have turned many Ethiopianists off easily.
> I wouldn't be surprized if the extremists come crying "enemies of Ethiopia".
> I believe your statement in this message was totally uncalled for. I wish
> you could apologize to our readers for an overly generalized remark that
> reduced the history of a nation to " a piece of garbage"
> Regards,
> Belete Muturo
Mudane Muturo:
Apologize what? Also those Westren countries who created Ethiopia knows it
that Ethiopian history is a piece of garbage. I'll be specific and
mention those countries such as The Americans and English. Ethiopian
history is an Amharic story and even children could prove that. I mean
children of the ages of 1-8.
I think, Mr. Belete, you shouldn't be mislead by Amharas Chavuarists? Be
objective and rational. Honest is essential.
Nabad
Faisal Hassan
aka Cune.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
Dear Belete and Zewudie:
Your points that we should not use generalized statements like "Ethiopian
history is garbage" is well taken. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Regards,
Udub.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <1996Oct3...@cctr.umkc.edu> smek...@cctr.umkc.edu writes:
>Listen Deboch,
Mr. Shahn:
What does "Deboch" mean ?
Regards,
Udub.
Lea1205
God help Ethiopia, God help my children, and God help all of you! I am
the American mother of two children whose father is from Ethiopia (I won't
bother stating which region, language, ethnic group, city, religion, etc.,
because then I would have to listen to an endless litany of how he and my
children are superior, inferior or not even worthy of the being called
human), and I thought that reading the messages in this newsgroup would
give me a better understanding of my children's heritage that I could then
share with them. What am I supposed to tell them to make them proud of
their heritage when even a simple conversation about a DINNER item
dissolves into a verbal free-for-all? It's all relative! I'm not going
to presume that I know anything about any part of the Ethiopian culture
and invoke the almighty "statistics", but it doesn't take a wealth of
knowledge to know that this isn't doing anybody any good.
I have been eating Ethiopian cuisine for the last ten years (including
kitfo). Let me break this news to anybody who wants to insult people for
eating raw meat - if you have ever eaten ingera, then you could be
considered just as savage by a large percentage of Americans, and other
cultures as well! YOU EAT WITH YOUR HANDS, for God's sake!
Please, wise up before it's to late. Don't you remember the nightmare
images of the famine of the 80's? Those images embodied all the horror of
the world when I was growing up, and even I know that what happened wasn't
just an act of Mother Nature!
Love yourself, first of all - then love and respect each other - so that
my children and yours can have a heritage that they can love, respect and
celebrate.
R2...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
In article <Pine.NEB.3.95.961101...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca>
faisal hassan <fha...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> writes:
>Mudane Muturo:
>
>Apologize what? Also those Westren countries who created Ethiopia knows it
>that Ethiopian history is a piece of garbage. I'll be specific and
>mention those countries such as The Americans and English. Ethiopian
>history is an Amharic story and even children could prove that. I mean
>children of the ages of 1-8.
is a piece of garbage". It shakes sentimental foundations of all those
Ethiopians who feel that they are part of a nation that has survived both
manmade and natural calamities, that has registered victories in battle
fields and Olympic Stadiums, that has overthrown centuries old monarchies
and ruthless dictators and finally and recently that ignored the noisy
extremists and arm-chair politicians. In my opinion criticisms and dismissal
statements are different. Yes,the driver's seat in the Ethiopian politics
has been occupied by a certain groups for years with some body-counts
symbolizing the political representation here and there. But, Ethiopian
people were all along making history and that history was not only
recorded by those who tried to fix it in their own image, but also by
neutral scholars. Whatever lens you may use to look at the Ethiopian
History,you would not say it's" a piece of garbage." That is what I am
talking about. On the other hand, one can intelligently argue that
in many cases the Historical facts were distorted.This is being addressed
in many fronts. What I was wishing to see Muhammed Apologize was the
extent of his generalization. But that is upto him. Muhammed is very
careful person in addressing issues. If he does not feel that this is
beyond the norm, he can ignore my comment and address it in any way
he wishes.
>I think, Mr. Belete, you shouldn't be mislead by Amharas Chavuarists? Be
>objective and rational. Honest is essential.
one of our colleagues not go too far in condemning our history.
Regards,
Belete
Zewdie Bachore
In article <55dgs0$d...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
Mr Udub,
It takes a man/woman of character to come out publicly and aplogize
when he/she make a mistake that impacts the Whole Nation. For your
information, Mr. Udub, I am every bit Ethiopia and Ethiopian History. When
you said that "... Ethiopian History is lies .." and that "...it's garbage", you
are actually calling me and All Ethiopians that we are made up of lies and
that we are garbage. Your above statement does not suffice ... you OWE
US ETHIOPIAN A HUGE APOLOGY!
And please refrain from spreading a venemous spirit
(or rejoyce for that matter) when a nation is under distress.
Zewudie
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
Zewudie:
I refuse to do what you seem to be instructing me. I have made what seemed
to me an appropriate response to your concerns. And you know that you and
I have equal rights to make intrepretations of statemens. So, resist
temptations of making your intrepretations more accurate than mine.
BTW, it wise not to pretend to be speaking for a nation of more than
eighty million people. It will boomerang on you. I know it.
Regards,
Udub.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <kitesss.18...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz>
kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz (Kitessa, Soressa Mererra) writes:
>Your claim to part of Ethiopia as being Western Somalia, and your support to
>a clansman who thinks Ethiopia is a western colonial concept rather than an
>African nation make me wonder if your statement that Ethiopian history is
>garbage was a mere oversight made at the end of a long day.
Bonnie K. Holcomb (a citizen of what country ?) and Sisai Ibssa, a well
known Oromo writer, also think that Ethiopia was invented by Euorpeans.
They have articulated their thesis in a book entitled "The Ethiopian
Invention - The making of a dependent colonial state in Northeast Africa",
published by th Red Sea Press in Trenton, New Jersey, USA. I qoute the
writings on the last cover of the book:
"Ethiopia was not a naturally occuring political, cultural, or
economic entity. It was invented to fill a need felt in Europe
rather than one in Northeast Africa. It was formed as the result of an
alliance struck between imperial powers of Europe and Abyssinia"
-Bonnie Halcomb and Sisai Ibssa
>BTW, are you the Muhammed Hussein who moderates Ethiopian newsgroup? Hmmmm..
Yes, I am. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... I wonder if you could cross
over from trivial skirmishes ?
Regards,
Udub.
Negeri
smk wrote:
First what we are discussing is not any more about raw/cooked meat, but the right to
self determination either within or out of the cotext of the present Ethiopia. So,
hope you agree with the title/subject change.
> Makobil,
> You don't necessarily have to split
> Ethiopia into small clans to create a democratic government. I don't
> subscribe to the American prescription which has divided Ethiopia into
> countless ethnic parties to achieve equal representation. ================================================================================
I am amazed that you, too, play the "American prescription" card for the present
Ethiopian political landscape. I always wonder whether it is vnivity or political
evasion to blame USA ignoring the objective realities and political forces in
Ethiopia. What do you mean by 'which has divided Ethiopia'? Holding on your
'Ethiopian nationalism' for the moment, and realize that Ethiopia was not a
homogenous entity and there has been economic, political & cultural supression of the
right of nations and nationalities to-date by successive governments. What you termed
as 'divided Ethiopia' is the least or the fringe of the right to self determination.
If this is division, how on earth would you engineer the geopolitics of Ethioipia so
that at least each nation and nationality in that country shall govern it self in its
own language and according to its own values. Or Sir, your prescription , as opposed
to the "Americans" would be a unitary state at any cost and at the expense of each
constituent nation in Ethiopia?
And be it right or wrong, is it the work of America or the fringe outcome of the
struggle of the oppressed nations for their right for self determination? America
never cares who and how Ethiopia is ruled as far as it is ruled by some body who
secures her interest.
==================================================================================
> Can you imagine
> how many parties will mushroom if America was to adopt ethnic parites?
> Still, it beats me why they endorsed a system which they would never
> practise on their own land.
===================================================================================
It is not b/s American government adopts/unsubscribes to ethinic policy. It is due to
the fact that, irrespective of the problems, every body has a vested interest in USA.
I want to stress again that if each citizen has confidence in the common system there
wouldn't be a platform for other senarious.
I hope you would not blame the people of QUEBEC in one of the respected democracies
in the world- CANADA - for excercising their democratic rights. You are closer enough
to notice what dividends the people of Quebec harvested by playing that card.
I am simply saying the right to self determination is a democratic right and if the
peoples of Ethiopia prefer to excercise that, it does not amount to 'American
prescription' nor 'an international conspiracy to dismember Ethiopia'.
==============================================================================
> In my opinion, what we need is a goverment that is representative, not
> one that looks representative. For instance, there are parites for all
> the regions and ethnicities in Ethiopia in the current gov't.......
================================================================================
I thought this paragraph is in contradiction with '...has divided Ethiopia' above.
Oh, I am relieved for acknowledging positively the existence of regional parties and
for not repeating the 'divided..' and '..clanist..' here. Or did I misunderstand you
here?
Lastly, I am of an opinion that the people of Oromia, the largest nation in the horn,
deserve better!!!!
Negeri
> Cheers,
> Soressa.
>
mako...@netcom.com
Kitessa, Soressa Mererra (kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz) wrote:
: Your claim to part of Ethiopia as being Western Somalia, and your support to
: a clansman who thinks Ethiopia is a western colonial concept rather than an
: African nation make me wonder...
That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
serious mind can dispute. Denying a fact a zillion times will not change
the fact of the matter.
Makobili
smk
Makobil,
There are volumes of examples where nations have been created through
colonisation and brute force but developed into a democratic
all-encompasing sovereign states for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.
Actually America is one of them. You don't necessarily have to split
subscribe to the American prescription which has divided Ethiopia into
Still, it beats me why they endorsed a system which they would never
practise on their own land.
one that looks representative. For instance, there are parites for all
gov't we have is neither representative nor democratic.
Cheers,
Soressa.
mako...@netcom.com
smk (kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz) wrote:
: mako...@netcom.com wrote:
: >
: >That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
: >byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
: >serious mind can dispute. Denying a fact a zillion times will not change
: >the fact of the matter.
: >
: >Makobili
: ========================================================================
: all-encompasing sovereign states for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.
: Actually America is one of them.
That is an entirely different subject. What we are talking about
here is whether or not the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct
that owes its very essence to the 19th centrury European Scramble
for Africa. I argue it is, and I take it that you have accepted
my point and chose to move on to another subject.
Now, coming to your point, I have to agree with you but I must add
that the Ethiopian state is not one of those "volumes of examples"
you are talking about.
: You don't necessarily have to split
: Ethiopia into small clans to create a democratic government.
Nobody is talking about clans here but about fully developed large
and distinct nations that want to be free and independent. If you
think I or Udub are talking about/for clans you have made a big
mistake and you have a lot of catching up to do.
: I don't
: subscribe to the American prescription which has divided Ethiopia into
: countless ethnic parties to achieve equal representation.
Thos who accuse the Americans for their own failure must welcome you
to their camp, but all I can tell you is that Ethiopia has never been
a united entity that the Americans would have to bother to devide as
you and your likes want the entire world to believe.
Makobili
abugeda
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>
> That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
> during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
> byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
> serious mind can dispute. Denying a fact a zillion times will not change
> the fact of the matter.
>
> Makobili
On what basis can you make the above assertion?
Question 1. Was there an Ethiopian State in the Northeastern African
region before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 2. Is there an Ethiopian state in the northeastern african
region after the last quarter of the ninetennth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 3. Were there many "ethnic groups" (I hate the term by the way)
who lived within the borders of Ethiopia before the last quarter of the
nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 4. Are there many "ethnic groups" who still live within the
borders of Ethiopia after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 5. Were shared (please note I did not say there was a single
one) cultural and religious values of the populace a fact of Ethiopian
life before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
life today?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 7. Did Ethiopian rulers use force as well as political unions
to assert their leadership, and expand their influence before the last
quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 8. Have Ethiopian leaders used force and political unions to
assert their leadership, and expand their influence after the last
quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Most definitely yes!
Question 9. Were the borders of the Ethiopian state before the last
quarter of the nineteenth century identical to the borders of the
Ethiopian state after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
Answer. Certainly not!
Something for you to mull over: The United States of America attained
it's current shape and structure, i.e. a federal union of fifty states,
only after the 1940's (i.e. after the second world war), after the
joining of Alaska and Hawaii as States as opposed to territories. Does
it mean that the United States is only fifty years old? Does that mean
that the United States currently around is not the United States that
came into existence as of 1789?
By your analysis, states have to be spontaneously re-created every time
their border shifted an inch. That is a ridiculous notion, to say the
least. The essential nature of the Ethiopian state has been fairly
stable for centuries.
Also, Ethiopia does not owe it's existence to the largesse of the
colonial powers of the time. Ethiopians fought and Ethiopians died. As
one eminent historian put it, the notion that Ethiopia was created at
the benevolence of the colonialists, makes you wonder whether the battle
of Adwa was just a picnic.
If you are serious about starting a dialogue on Ethiopia's current
problems, it is much more fruitful to deal with the reality of the here
and now. History is not and cannot be a solution. Which is another
question - is history a science, does it abide by the known rules of
science?
sincerely,
abugeda
promod project
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN wrote:
> Bonnie K. Holcomb (a citizen of what country ?) and Sisai Ibssa, a
> well known Oromo writer, also think that Ethiopia was invented by
> Euorpeans.
Just a second, well known? To whom, in what?
> They have articulated their thesis in a book entitled "The Ethiopian
> Invention - The making of a dependent colonial state in Northeast
> Africa", published by th Red Sea Press in Trenton, New Jersey, USA. I
> qoute the writings on the last cover of the book:
And there have been many rebuttals of the thesis from scholars in
Ethiopian studies. Ofcourse it is published by Red Sea Press, the
publisher whose sole purpose of existence is to deconstruct Ethiopia.
> "Ethiopia was not a naturally occuring political, cultural, or
> economic entity. It was invented to fill a need felt in Europe
> rather than one in Northeast Africa. It was formed as the
> result of an alliance struck between imperial powers of Europe
> and Abyssinia"
> -Bonnie Halcomb and Sisai Ibssa
If you want to see another side of the story, you may want to read a
couple of books which were written earlier, Sven Rubenson's "The
Survival of Ethiopian Independence" and Elrich Haggai's "Ethiopia & the
Challenge to its independence".
selam leityoPya!
Araya
promod project
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
> That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
> during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
> byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
> serious mind can dispute.
Actually there are many of us who assert otherwise. It was the fact that
in Ethiopia the state formation has preceded the colonial era that
enabled it to survive the scarmble. The presence of a centralized state:
1)that understood the siginificance of firearms and was able to build
its arsenal exploiting the European rivalary,
2)that was able to mobilize an army of more than hundred thousand
soldiers while covering it leading to the underestimation by its
arrogant enemies
was the key factor in the survival of Ethiopian independence.
Ofcourse the Ethiopian state was confined to its present day borders
as a result of the interaction between Ethiopia and the colonialists
that were advancing from the coastline towards the interior. It was only
after Ethiopia won the decisive victory at Adwa,on March 2 1896,
European powers came to recognize her as a sovergin nation and thus
worthy of negotiating borders with. Ethiopia is a not a European
construct rather a result of the natural dynamics of the people within
its borders today.
> Denying a fact a zillion times will not change the fact of the matter.
But repeating a lie zillion times and perhaps publish it in Red Sea
Press books, and quote them to unsuspecting audiences will make it a
fact?
selam leityoPya!
Araya Amsalu
Kitessa, Soressa Mererra
In article <55dgs0$d...@portal.gmu.edu> mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu (MUHAMMED HUSSEIN) writes:
>From: mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu (MUHAMMED HUSSEIN)
>Subject: Re: The raw beef legend
>Date: 1 Nov 1996 18:51:44 GMT
>Dear Belete and Zewudie:
>Your points that we should not use generalized statements like "Ethiopian
>history is garbage" is well taken. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
>Regards,
>Udub.
============================================================================
Really, Udub? Is this a tongue slip or your real outlook on Ethiopia? I
don't mean people don't make mistakes but the following make me suspicious.
Your claim to part of Ethiopia as being Western Somalia, and your support to
a clansman who thinks Ethiopia is a western colonial concept rather than an
African nation make me wonder if your statement that Ethiopian history is
garbage was a mere oversight made at the end of a long day.
BTW, are you the Muhammed Hussein who moderates Ethiopian newsgroup? Hmmmm..
Soressa.
Gtgobena
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>Nobody is talking about clans here but about fully >developed large
>and distinct nations that want to be free and independent. >If you
>think I or Udub are talking about/for clans you have made >a big
>mistake and you have a lot of catching up to do.
Mr. Makobili,
What is the meaning of "developed large and distinct nations"? I am of
part Oromo extraction and do not know of an Oromia prior to these past few
years. I also am aware of the suffering and humiliation visited upon my
Oromo ancestors by my Amhara ancestors. But can I then conclude after
these facts that there is a distinct nation called Oromia in existence?
The cultural differences between various Oromo groups is just as great as
the difference between Oromos and non-Oromos (esp. Amharas, Sidamas,
Gurages and Somalis). On my Amhara side, I see the same differences in
culture among different Amhara regions. So what good comes out of
dismantling an intermixed nation or creating a sub-nation that does not
exist. In my opinion, only the personal ego satisfaction of power hungry
individuals, usually from the western part of "Oromia".
Gebrel Gobena
v057...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
In article <55iras$o...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu (MUHAMMED HUSSEIN) writes:
>In article <55invc$s...@raven.cc.ukans.edu> kumc.wpo.ukans.edu writes:
>>In article <55dgs0$d...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your points that we should not use generalized statements like "Ethiopian
>>>history is garbage" is well taken. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Udub.
>>
>>
>>
>>It takes a man/woman of character to come out publicly and aplogize
>>when he/she make a mistake that impacts the Whole Nation. For your
>>information, Mr. Udub, I am every bit Ethiopia and Ethiopian History. When
>>you said that "... Ethiopian History is lies .." and that "...it's garbage", you
>>are actually calling me and All Ethiopians that we are made up of lies and
>>that we are garbage. Your above statement does not suffice ... you OWE
>>US ETHIOPIAN A HUGE APOLOGY!
>>
>>And please refrain from spreading a venemous spirit
>>(or rejoyce for that matter) when a nation is under distress.
>>
>>Zewudie
>
>
>Zewudie:
>
>I refuse to do what you seem to be instructing me. I have made what seemed
>to me an appropriate response to your concerns. And you know that you and
>I have equal rights to make intrepretations of statemens. So, resist
>temptations of making your intrepretations more accurate than mine.
>
>BTW, it wise not to pretend to be speaking for a nation of more than
>eighty million people. It will boomerang on you. I know it.
>
>Regards,
>Udub.
>
Mrs. Zewuditu Bachore is asking the wrong person, Udub, to apologize to
her. I thought she would ask Mr. Faisal to apologize to her since he called her
"stupid" in one of his postings. She never also asked the other guy who
insulted her by saying, "prostitute", last summer on the news groups during the
campaign to form SCEM, to apologize. Of course, I don't agree with most of what
Mr. Udub said, but I respect his basic human rights to express his beliefs
whatever it may be. In other words, Udub never made a personal attack against
Mrs. Bachore just like Mr. Faisal and the other guy who called her "stupid" and
"prostitute". I hope Mr. Faisal and his colleague will apologize to her for
their misbehaivor.
Jalel.
Eliab G Tarkghen
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Negeri wrote:
> ===================================================================================
> It is not b/s American government adopts/unsubscribes to ethinic policy. It is due to
> the fact that, irrespective of the problems, every body has a vested interest in USA.
> I want to stress again that if each citizen has confidence in the common system there
> wouldn't be a platform for other senarious.
>
> I hope you would not blame the people of QUEBEC in one of the respected democracies
> in the world- CANADA - for excercising their democratic rights. You are closer enough
> to notice what dividends the people of Quebec harvested by playing that card.
>
> I am simply saying the right to self determination is a democratic right and if the
> peoples of Ethiopia prefer to excercise that, it does not amount to 'American
> prescription' nor 'an international conspiracy to dismember Ethiopia'.
Selam Negeri,
I agree with you 100% in the above statement, "The right to self
determination" is a democratic right, so is "The right to UNITE". The
problem right now in Ethiopia is not wethere we understand that "Self
Determination" is a democratic right, but understanding what
democratic right means. As much as it is your right to belive in
"Self Determination", it is also my right to belive otherwise. Thus, I
should not be harrasd or killed because of my belive. But that is
exactly what is happening in the name of "Self Determination" in Ethiopia
right now.
Those who advocate "Self Determination" have never used any
democratic method to magnify their struggle, but has always resort
to blood sheed battles, and terror on the community that oppose them.
Mr. Negrie, when is the last time that OLF, the group you advocate, used
peaceful and democratic method to struggle for "Self Determination"?
You have mentioned Quebec as an example, but did the people who lived in
Quebec who were not for "Self Determination" killed, harrasd or chased
away, because of their belive?
Mr. Negeri, again the problem in Ethiopia is not understanding what "Self
Determination" is, but lack of respect for others Democratic Right. If
majority of Oromos, wanted to secede from Ethiopia, it would have
been so, but they don't, so we need to start start respecting each
others "Democratic Right."
Eliab.
P.S. Is there a TEST to find out who is/not an Oromo, Amhara,Tigray,etc..
> ==============================================================================
> > In my opinion, what we need is a goverment that is representative, not
> > one that looks representative. For instance, there are parites for all
Zewdie Bachore
In article <55k2ic$1...@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz>, kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz says...>>: Your claim to part of Ethiopia as being Western Somalia, and your support to
>>
>>That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
>>during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
>>byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
>>
>========================================================================
>Makobil,
>There are volumes of examples where nations have been created through
>colonisation and brute force but developed into a democratic
>all-encompasing sovereign states for both the 'winners' and 'losers'.
>Ethiopia into small clans to create a democratic government. I don't
>how many parties will mushroom if America was to adopt ethnic parites?
>Still, it beats me why they endorsed a system which they would never
>practise on their own land.
Dear Soressa,
You paused a very significant question. Let's look history in perspective.
Ethiopia stands for a defiant Black Nation in Africa. United
States sided with Italian Invasion of Ethiopia! Case in point, why did
United States oppossed Black American men going to Ethiopia to help
out during WWII? United States was one of the nations who walked out
at the Leauge of Nations when Hailes Sellassie was presenting his case.
To tell you bluntly, United States takes a great deal of pleasure when
African countries are oppressed/colonized. South African Aparthied
system was very much fostered/encouraged by United States.
So, to answer your question: Splitting up Ethiopia into ethnic villages is
another way of destroying Ethiopia that USA was looking for at the
first place - only this time they are doing it from within in a covert method.
> In my opinion, what we need is a goverment that is representative, not
>one that looks representative. For instance, there are parites for all
>the regions and ethnicities in Ethiopia in the current gov't but the
>gov't we have is neither representative nor democratic.
>Cheers,
>Soressa.
> In my opinion, what we need is a goverment that is representative, not
>one that looks representative. For instance, there are parites for all
Zewdie Bachore
In article <makobiliE...@netcom.com>, mako...@netcom.com says...
>
>Kitessa, Soressa Mererra (kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz) wrote:
>
>: Your claim to part of Ethiopia as being Western Somalia, and your support to
>: a clansman who thinks Ethiopia is a western colonial concept rather than an
>: African nation make me wonder...
>
>That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
>during the last quarter of the ninteenth century,
Makobill,
Do you have facts to back up what you're stating above? Am I understanding
you right when you stated, "... Ethiopia came into existence during last
19th Century .. " or say at the beginning of 20th Century? So the claim that
Ethiopian History exists for 3,000 - 4,000 is just wishful thinking? So
according to you Ethiopia and the name Ethiopia is made up by European
Colonists scrambling in Africa? We need to know this, don't you think?
> primarily as a
>byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
>serious mind can dispute.
Just give us facts .... don't worry about the denying souls!
And while you are at it, please name those European Colonial powers
(personalities) that came up with this colonial constructs/formula for
Ethiopia.
Zewudie
faisal hassan
Zewedia:
Everyone else is BLACK in this Socially constructed state which
they named Ethiopia? So, please don't misled African Americans in the
United States of America. You are no longer claiming "Black State invented
by external forces".
Representation of what Ms. Zewedia? We Africans first and foremost must
solve the problem of "COLONIALISM"? Self-determination is the key? It
will happen because all of us are wanting to determine our
destiny. A guess you known nothing what is going on this socially
constructed state. You lady make the choose? What do you want to remain in
this state or create a state for the Amhara people in Gonder and Gojum,
that is where the real Ethiopia lies? It is your turn LADY?
Nabad
Cune.
Negeri
Eliab G Tarkghen wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Negeri wrote:
>
> Selam Negeri,
>
> Those who advocate "Self Determination" have never used any
> democratic method to magnify their struggle, but has always resort
> to blood sheed battles, and terror on the community that oppose them.
> Mr. Negrie, when is the last time that OLF, the group you advocate, used
> peaceful and democratic method to struggle for "Self Determination"?
> You have mentioned Quebec as an example, but did the people who lived in
> Quebec who were not for "Self Determination" killed, harrasd or chased
> away, because of their belive?
>
======================================================================
Dear Eliab,
I do not know why and how my advocacy for OLF implied in my thread. Is it
the norm that any Oromo who believes in the right to self determination
bound to be an advocate of OLF? Is OLF the only political force that
promotes the right to self determination? If your answer to the above is
yes, I have no choice except to say well, let me be it. But this absolute
labelling and categorization take us no where except radicalisation of
people.
As to your allegation of OLF, I hope there are people in a better
position to respond to that effect.
Other wise, I am happy that you respect peoples' right to self
determination as a political option.
Negeri
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
>Just a second, well known? To whom, in what?
Among Oromo and Somali intellectuals in the diaspora. I have personally
attended the summer 1996 Oromo convention and Sisai Ibssa was there to
deliver papers and has moderated many panels. I have personally enjoyed
his sessions. In my opinion, a person could liberate himself if and when
he seeks recognition from his nation first. I think that is what he did
and he did get a big recognition from his people. To his credit many
non-Ethiopian "Ethiopianists" also seemed to think highly of him.
>And there have been many rebuttals of the thesis from scholars in
>Ethiopian studies. Ofcourse it is published by Red Sea Press, the
>publisher whose sole purpose of existence is to deconstruct Ethiopia.
And what is wrong with "deconstructing" Ethiopia. At least, they do their
business in a peacefull manner. I personally wouldn't hesitate to publish
thru them if I ever publish ;-).
>If you want to see another side of the story, you may want to read a
>couple of books which were written earlier, Sven Rubenson's "The
>Survival of Ethiopian Independence" and Elrich Haggai's "Ethiopia & the
>Challenge to its independence".
Thanks for the info. I will see if I could read them.
Regards,
Udub.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <55l89n$f...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>
v057...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu writes:
> Mrs. Zewuditu Bachore is asking the wrong person, Udub, to apologize to
>her. I thought she would ask Mr. Faisal to apologize to her since he called her
>"stupid" in one of his postings. She never also asked the other guy who
>insulted her by saying, "prostitute", last summer on the news groups during the
>campaign to form SCEM, to apologize. Of course, I don't agree with most of what
>Mr. Udub said, but I respect his basic human rights to express his beliefs
>whatever it may be. In other words, Udub never made a personal attack against
>Mrs. Bachore just like Mr. Faisal and the other guy who called her "stupid" and
>"prostitute". I hope Mr. Faisal and his colleague will apologize to her for
>their misbehaivor.
Jalel:
I am sure Zewudie doesn't realize that she has attempted to use a huge
object called "Ethiopia" and has unknowingly unleashed all its forces
against me. Perhaps, she doesn't realize also that the same people who
called her "prostitute" used that same object "Ethiopia" to justify their
inhumane treatment of her. You see, people should not pretend to have
superior moral values over others and invoke an imaginary object to get
even with fellow individuals. Individualism is a very important concept
and I do not expect everybody to understand it right away. So, it is
enevitable that we treat each other as individuals. Thanks for respecting
my human rights of free speech even though you may not agree with all that
I say. I truly respect you for that.
I hope Zewudie did not do that unfairness to me to make happy those who
have insulted her in the summer.
Regards,
Udub.
onc...@aol.com
>> That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into
existence
>> during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
>> byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
>> serious mind can dispute.
> Actually there are many of us who assert otherwise. It was the fact that
> in Ethiopia the state formation has preceded the colonial era that
> enabled it to survive the scarmble.
It is understandable that those who trace their ancestry to the founders
of
the Ethiopian colonial state would disagree with Makobili's statement
quoted above. It must be noted however that these people cannot provide
a single credible evidence that proves the existence of an Ethiopian
state prior to Menelik the arrival in the region of European colonial
powers.
The most they can do is to mention petty warlords like Yohannes and
Teodros
whose rule never extended more than a few miles beyond their birthblaces
and
graves.
Oncho
mako...@netcom.com
promod project (ams...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: mako...@netcom.com wrote:
: > That the Ethiopian state is a colonial construct that came into existence
: > during the last quarter of the ninteenth century, primarily as a
: > byproduct of the infamous European Scramble For Africa, is a fact no
: > serious mind can dispute.
: Actually there are many of us who assert otherwise.
Yes, indeed! But all of you who assert otherwise are children of
those the very people who took part in the creation of that colonial
construct called Ethiopia and who have since benefited from its
existence. How can I forget that people like you do exist?
: It was the fact that
: in Ethiopia the state formation has preceded the colonial era that
: enabled it to survive the scarmble.
Only to you black colonists is it a "fact" that "the formation of the
Ethiopian state preceded the colonial era", to the rest of the world
it is an ugly and sad fiction authored by none other than your kins.
: The presence of a centralized state:
: 1)that understood the siginificance of firearms and was able to build
: its arsenal exploiting the European rivalary,
You must be kidding yourself. Prior to Menelik and the arrival of
European colonialists even Abyssinia proper never was a centralized
state. It consisted only of an aglomeration of small warring feudal
principalities in Menz, Gojam Gonder and Tigray. The rest of what you
wrote is in fact supports my point -- the arrival of European
colonialists, with their deadly firearms, tipped the ballance of power
in the region in favor of one of the Abyssinian warlords called Menelik
and this in turn led to the colonization of sovereign people south of
Abyssinia. Great Britain, Italy, and France supplied firearms and
advisors to Menelik to achieve their colonial ambitions by proxy. The
idea was to empower him to a point where he can control the region which
they all planned to take away from him at a later time. The war fought
between Italy and Menelik was to achieve the latter goal. The Europeans
never took away what they gave to Menelik and that gift is what people
call Ethiopia today. It is now the task of the colonized people to get
rid of the dirt Europeans left behind.
Makobili
Zewdie Bachore
In article <55iras$o...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
>Zewudie:
>
> (deleted).> And you know that you and
>I have equal rights to make intrepretations of statemens.
>So, resist >temptations of making your intrepretations more accurate than mine.
Your misconstrued allegations that Ethiopia's History is garbage and
all lies falls in the category of 'right to make a statement'? Only a human
being (if there is one) who does now have something to call history of
his own, can call a nation without history and full of lies! You seem to
possess a very loose tongue!
>BTW, it wise not to pretend to be speaking for a nation of more than
>eighty million people. It will boomerang on you.
Now, you are calling me pretentious? Calling me and my
people lies and garbage; and my objection to same
is pretentious?
>I know it.
What do you know?
Zewudie
>
>Regards,
>Udub.
>
mako...@netcom.com
Eliab G Tarkghen (as...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: If
: majority of Oromos, wanted to secede from Ethiopia, it would have
: been so, but they don't, so we need to start start respecting each
: others "Democratic Right."
One must compare such a statement with what Abyssinians (Amhara/Tigre)
say about the Oromo people on their private mailing lists. The following
two articles were posted recently on one of the Habasha mailing lists.
Makobili
=========
Selam Taddese and all readers,
As Taddese wrote yesterday, many postings come from Freenet in Canada.
These postings were the work of Oromos living in Canada. Since I live
in Canada I tried to find out who is/are behind this campaign against
Ethiopia. Freenet is a service provider that is subsidized by government
and gets donnations from the subscribers as well. However, some
influential Oromo intellectuals are in the management and the technical
control of this net. If one controls the system, then any thing can be
done. Even Ethiopians are blocked out. You may not know but the Oromos
have their net system that they use all Oromos arround the world.
I think it is called mekobly. It is only for the Oromos. Now they are in
control of other service providers like the Freenet.
These Oromos are more advanced than we may think. Taddese even said that
after accesing Haravad University server, someone subscribed to Ethiolist.
You see, these are the people who could do anything they want.
We must be aware of the danger. As we know Oromos are the majority in
Ethiopia. Besides, they occupy the heartland of our country. If they
succed in deciding their destination, if they achieve their goal of
dismembering our country, dismantling Ethiopia, leave alone Ethiopia,
our well being will be at stake.
If the Oromos succed they just don't cut out only a part of our country
like Eritrea did but take the heartland. It would be literally like removing
the heart surgically and leaving the body alone.
I am not exaggerating. It is the reality that we have to face. If we don't
act now tomorrow it will be too late.
You know, the Eritrean Liberation struggle started in the early sixties
by 7 people. Look today!!
If anyone thinks that I am overstating, then the time will come when
one would say "Do you remember who said that?"
So what should we do?
My suggestion:
- Be Oromo-phobia
- Beware of the danger.
- Be alert
- Don't sleep
- Take every precaution when reading what is posted on
Ethiolist from Freenet and perhaps other places too
- Read more history books to defend any campains
- Be Ethiopia-maniac
By for now
Demissie
----
>
> I hate characterizing personality. Howevr, anyone who tells me
> that there is no danger in our country must be at least in one of the
> following three categories.
>
> 1. Oromos who want to make a surprise reemptive strike against
> us to achieve their GAOL of liberating FREE OROMIA. These types of
> people would tell us that there is no danger whereas they prepare
> themselves tArticle Unavailable
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <55ngjj$n...@raven.cc.ukans.edu> kumc.wpo.ukans.edu writes:
>No it's not trivial skirmish, netter is wondering why would you like moderate
>a group of a country that you believe its history is garbage and fulll
>of lies? And now you and those in your concert believe that the
>concept of the country is made up!
By the same token, why would you want to moderate a group who you believe
represents a country whose members all subscribe to one idea ? And whose
idea, by the way, you seem not to understand.
Regards,
Udub.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
>No it's not trivial skirmish, netter is wondering why would you like moderate
>a group of a country that you believe its history is garbage and fulll
>of lies? And now you and those in your concert believe that the
>concept of the country is made up!
Let the said netter speak for himself, would you ?
Regards,
Udub.
Eliab G Tarkghen
On 5 Nov 1996, MUHAMMED HUSSEIN wrote:
> In article <327DFC...@pitt.edu> promod project <ams...@pitt.edu> writes:
>
>
> >And there have been many rebuttals of the thesis from scholars in
> >Ethiopian studies. Ofcourse it is published by Red Sea Press, the
> >publisher whose sole purpose of existence is to deconstruct Ethiopia.
>
> And what is wrong with "deconstructing" Ethiopia. At least, they do their
> business in a peacefull manner. I personally wouldn't hesitate to publish
> thru them if I ever publish ;-).
Hello MUHAMMED
I guess there is also nothing wrong in "deconstructing" Somaila?
right?
Eliab
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.961105...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>
>Hello MUHAMMED
>
> I guess there is also nothing wrong in "deconstructing" Somaila?
>right?
>Eliab
Eliab:
You are dead right. If Somalia is based on an unjust doctrine, then
people have the right to deconstruct it. In the end, I suppose, it would
be a victory for humanity, if you know what I mean.
Regards,
Udub.
smek...@cctr.umkc.edu
>
>>>BTW, are you the Muhammed Hussein who moderates Ethiopian newsgroup? Hmmmm..
>>
>>over from trivial skirmishes ?
>
> No it's not trivial skirmish, netter is wondering why would you like moderate
> a group of a country that you believe its history is garbage and fulll
> of lies? And now you and those in your concert believe that the
> concept of the country is made up!
>
>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Udub.
>
GOOD QUESTION!!! May be Mr. Udub (Mohammud Hussien) can
answer that for us.
Shahn
Zewdie Bachore
In article <55j77p$u...@portal.gmu.edu>, mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
>
>Bonnie K. Holcomb (a citizen of what country ?) and Sisai Ibssa, a well
>known Oromo writer,
Bonnie Holcomb, Sisai Ibssa, Muhammed Hussien, and
Dr. Solomon Beyene Ungashe, known as Makobill are in conert
to determine nonexistence of State of Ethiopia ... okay we get it!
So you guys, instead of hiding in your exile cocoon, when are you
going to wipe out the country of Ethiopia?
faisal hassan
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, abugeda wrote:
> On what basis can you make the above assertion?
Abugeda:
Ethiopia is a socially Constructed State by the European colonizisers who
saw that "Amharas" were lazy and thought to create more division among the
African people in order to empower the lazy "Amharas".
> Question 1. Was there an Ethiopian State in the Northeastern African
> region before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
Please gives us a break. You know nothing about what you are talking
about? Ethiopia came to being with the help of European colonizers who
employed the "art of divide and rule method" Ethiopia is socially
constructed (colony) by the european colonizers as a state for the lazy
"Amhara" and led their to exploit among the African people through-its
Monarchy structure.
The modern statehood is a new phonemona in the history of
human race. Therefore, to suggestion that Ethiopia as state existed before
19 century is false and wishful thinking in the minds of many "Amhara"
folks. face the facts!
> Question 3. Were there many "ethnic groups" (I hate the term by the way)
> who lived within the borders of Ethiopia before the last quarter of the
> nineteenth century?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
Wrong again. You get away with your article with your norrow
definition of "African people in Ethiopia" This time, you'll not get away
with this: ETHNIC GROUPS; do they exist in this "socially constructed
state called Ethiopia". What is this border of Ethiopia you are talking
about? Do you know what is Colonialization? What is meant? How does
colonialization occurs? I would suggest first and foremost to handle the
baisc things such as "How colonialization came to being" Then, we can
debate with in a reasonable manner, emotions aside.
> Question 4. Are there many "ethnic groups" who still live within the
> borders of Ethiopia after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
What is your definition of ETHNIC GROUPS? My definition is the European
one. It is defined as the following: "A group of people who share common
history, culture, language, and are about to reclaim their identity which
once lost and are on the verge to claim their self-determination." I
didn't coed nor created this definition. Go back to the literature and
learn something about what is ETHNIC GROUPS before you play stupid game of
seek and hide.
> Question 5. Were shared (please note I did not say there was a single
> one) cultural and religious values of the populace a fact of Ethiopian
> life before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
Weak and ambiguous. Think before you write. Get some help from the
well-learned "Amharas". I don't possess any University degree and I know
what I am talking about because I mastered this things at High school
level. Perhaps, you have PH.D and similar credentials. Children are
laughting at you! Did you get my point here? Or you are day dreaming?
> Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
> life today?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
What is these shared culture? Who share what and with whom? Eloborate.
You are not communicating with foreigners? BE SPECIFIC!
> Question 7. Did Ethiopian rulers use force as well as political unions
> to assert their leadership, and expand their influence before the last
> quarter of the nineteenth century?
> Answer. Most definitely yes!
I differ with you in this:
It happened with the help of European colonizers; it happened first
CONQUEST, second Destruction of social institutions of those communities
and I can go on. But, I'll keep the rest when you return, so that I could
to surprise you.
Nabad
Faisal Hassan.
mako...@netcom.com
abugeda (abu...@cris.com) wrote:
: Question 1. Was there an Ethiopian State in the Northeastern African
: region before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
No, there was not. All that existed was an aglomeration of waring feudal
principalities, and noe of them could qualify to be called a state.
: Question 2. Is there an Ethiopian state in the northeastern african
: region after the last quarter of the ninetennth century?
Yes, there is is. It is the colonial constrcut I was talking about. A
colonial state that has constantly been at war with the people under it,
that is what has been in existence cince the last quarter of the 19th
century.
: Question 3. Were there many "ethnic groups" (I hate the term by the way)
: who lived within the borders of Ethiopia before the last quarter of the
: nineteenth century?
Ethiopia did not exist then so the question is irrelevant.
: Question 4. Are there many "ethnic groups" who still live within the
: borders of Ethiopia after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
Yes, but most of them are struggle for their independence.
: Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
: life today?
Yes there is but why should that matter in this discussion?
The rest of what you wrote is totally irrelevant to the subject matter
and hence ignored.
Makobili
smk
Dear all,
We can all cite extreme views from different corners to ride peoples
emotions. I guess, in the end the will of the common Ethiopians will
decide the future of Ethiopia. I still think we should not use people's
emotional diarrhea as a basis of an argument. I have lived and worked in
Ethiopia and the picture painted from different corners does not fit the
country I knew only a few years back. History will judge us not by what
we knew but by how we used our knowledge that we earned on the back of
the Ethiopian tax payer.
Cheerio,
Soressa.
> - Don'tArticle Unavailable
abugeda
I am sorry that I have to shoulder the ignoble task of curing makobili's
myopia. But, for the sake of humanity's sanity, we will do what we must,
;-)
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>
> abugeda (abu...@cris.com) wrote:
> : Question 1. Was there an Ethiopian State in the Northeastern African
> : region before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
>
> No, there was not. All that existed was an aglomeration of waring feudal
> principalities, and none of them could qualify to be called a state.
>
Isn't it amazing that the heads of these warring principalities all
wanted to be or to control the Emperor of - gasp!- Ethiopia!! Isn't it
interesting that these guys wanted to become the head of a phantom
state!
> : Question 3. Were there many "ethnic groups" (I hate the term by the way)
> : who lived within the borders of Ethiopia before the last quarter of the
> : nineteenth century?
>
> Ethiopia did not exist then so the question is irrelevant.
The extent of Ethiopia's borders prior to 1875, and afterwards are the
only things that are different about Ethiopia. There is no point in
arguing you over this, as I maintain the historical record is heavily on
my side, and extremely scant on yours.
>
> : Question 4. Are there many "ethnic groups" who still live within the
> : borders of Ethiopia after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
>
> Yes, but most of them are struggle for their independence.
>
> : Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
> : life today?
>
> Yes there is but why should that matter in this discussion?
Sharing of these values is just one of many, many indications of the
existence of an Ethiopian state that transcended ethnicity, and
facilitated the types of contacts that created these shared values in
the first place.
> The rest of what you wrote is totally irrelevant to the subject matter
> and hence ignored.
You may choose to ignore it, but I re-state it here. A State cannot be
spontaneously destroyed and/or created just because,
1) it's borders change,
2) it's political organization changes,
3) it's constituent populace change.
To repeat my example, The United States was a federal union of 13 states
in 1789. It is now a federation of fifty states. It's borders have
grown, there are many more consituents to it's population - both
quantitatively, and qualitatively. By your analysis, it is only 50 years
old because the U.S. of today has only existed since WWII as a
federation of fifty states covering the territory it today covers. This
is an obviously untenable argument. But if such distortions of
historical realities are your stock-in-trade, then I say all power to
you.
> Makobili
abugeda
abugeda
faisal hassan wrote:
> Abugeda:
>
> Ethiopia is a socially Constructed State
1. Please define "socially constructed" - I thought your buddy talked
about "Colonial Construct". The first rule you should follow is - stay
on message, friend!
>by the European colonizisers who saw that "Amharas" were lazy and thought to create >more division among the African people in order to empower the lazy "Amharas".
2. Why would the European colonizers do that? Why did not the European
colonizers do away with the Amhara if they were too lazy for the
Europeans' liking?
>
> The modern statehood is a new phonemona in the history of
> human race. Therefore, to suggestion that Ethiopia as state existed before
> 19 century is false and wishful thinking in the minds of many "Amhara"
> folks. face the facts!
3. You have a couple of problems here.
a) I never used the term "modern state"
b) You obviously are a Euro-centric person (It means you only see the
world the way Europeans want you to see it - a good colonially
constructed mind you have - bravo!)
>
> Do you know what is Colonialization? What is meant? How does
> colonialization occurs? I would suggest first and foremost to handle the
> baisc things such as "How colonialization came to being"
4. Actually you may be right, Ethiopia has never been colonized, and has
never colonized anyone. So, as an Ethiopian, I cannot answer that
question. You seem to be well-schooled in the art of acting the mentally
colonized, why don't you tell me?
>
> > Question 4. Are there many "ethnic groups" who still live within the
> > borders of Ethiopia after the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
> > Answer. Most definitely yes!
>
> What is your definition of ETHNIC GROUPS? My definition is the European
> one.
5. Need I say more about your Euro-centric thinking?
>
> > Question 5. Were shared (please note I did not say there was a single
> > one) cultural and religious values of the populace a fact of Ethiopian
> > life before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
> > Answer. Most definitely yes!
>
> Weak and ambiguous. Think before you write. Get some help from the
> well-learned "Amharas". I don't possess any University degree and I know
> what I am talking about because I mastered this things at High school
> level. Perhaps, you have PH.D and similar credentials. Children are
> laughting at you! Did you get my point here? Or you are day dreaming?
6. If you read my post in the context of the whole message, you could
have understood. But then again, you did master all there is to know
about history and state formation at the high school level, so I am
humbled by the shining radiance of your wisdom and knowledge, O wise
one!
>
> > Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
> > life today?
> > Answer. Most definitely yes!
>
> What is these shared culture? Who share what and with whom? Eloborate.
> You are not communicating with foreigners? BE SPECIFIC!
7. I suggest maybe that you try and mix with ethiopians around where you
live; it is possible you may learn something totally different from what
a European, and a European trained mind has put down on paper. I would
also suggest that you read a few books on Ethiopia, but in your case I
am not sure if you would appreciate the tip.
> > Question 7. Did Ethiopian rulers use force as well as political unions
> > to assert their leadership, and expand their influence before the last
> > quarter of the nineteenth century?
> > Answer. Most definitely yes!
>
> I differ with you in this:
> It happened with the help of European colonizers; it happened first
> CONQUEST, second Destruction of social institutions of those communities
> and I can go on. But, I'll keep the rest when you return, so that I could
> to surprise you.
> Nabad
> Faisal Hassan.
Give me the references, and I will read these myself. Good-bye!
abugeda
Kitessa, Soressa Mererra
>Bonnie K. Holcomb (a citizen of what country ?) and Sisai Ibssa, a well
>known Oromo writer, also think that Ethiopia was invented by Euorpeans.
>They have articulated their thesis in a book entitled "The Ethiopian
>Invention - The making of a dependent colonial state in Northeast Africa",
>published by th Red Sea Press in Trenton, New Jersey, USA. I qoute the
>writings on the last cover of the book:
============================================================================
I have not had an opportunity to read the book and therefore wouldn't
comment anything.
> "Ethiopia was not a naturally occuring political, cultural, or
> economic entity. It was invented to fill a need felt in Europe
> rather than one in Northeast Africa. It was formed as the result of an
> alliance struck between imperial powers of Europe and Abyssinia"
> -Bonnie Halcomb and Sisai Ibssa
>>BTW, are you the Muhammed Hussein who moderates Ethiopian newsgroup? Hmmmm..
>Yes, I am. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... I wonder if you could cross
>over from trivial skirmishes ?
==========================================================================
I will in a minute. First I want to know the kind of person I am dealing
with. Holding all these anti-Ethiopian sentiments, why did you vote to
create this newsgroup, a part of which you are a moderator? How many
people you collected votes from knew your hidden agenda of detroying
Ethiopia and its place in history? Don't you think you have been shifty in
this respect, i.e. putting out a charter that had no indication of what is
coming?
Soressa( Still and forever Ethiopian).
mako...@netcom.com
abugeda (abu...@cris.com) wrote:
: I am sorry that I have to shoulder the ignoble task of curing makobili's
: myopia. But, for the sake of humanity's sanity, we will do what we must,
Oh you, abugeda, saviour and teacher of humanity, whose statement begins
with an "I", as if you are just one person, and ends with a "we", as if
you are more than one, please, tell us how many leaving or dead
souls you have!
: mako...@netcom.com wrote:
: >
: > abugeda (abu...@cris.com) wrote:
: > : Question 1. Was there an Ethiopian State in the Northeastern African
: > : region before the last quarter of the nineteenth century?
: >
: > No, there was not. All that existed was an aglomeration of waring feudal
: > principalities, and none of them could qualify to be called a state.
: >
: Isn't it amazing that the heads of these warring principalities all
: wanted to be or to control the Emperor of - gasp!- Ethiopia!! Isn't it
: interesting that these guys wanted to become the head of a phantom
: state!
There is nothing amazing in petty feudal warlords trying to get control
of more power and territory because such wars have existed for just about
as long as humanity has existed. What is amazing is to find that the
descendants of those warlords cite such wars as evidence for the
prior existence of a state, even if they call it a phantom one!
:
: > : Question 3. Were there many "ethnic groups" (I hate the term by the way)
: > : who lived within the borders of Ethiopia before the last quarter of the
: > : nineteenth century?
: >
: > Ethiopia did not exist then so the question is irrelevant.
: The extent of Ethiopia's borders prior to 1875, and afterwards are the
: only things that are different about Ethiopia.
Not so, Mr. Abugeda. Till Menelik's time even Abyssinia was composed of
petty feudal principalities. Did you forgot what the Abyssinian history
describes as "Zemene Mesafent"? Gojam, Gonder, Menz and Tigray were all
fending for themselves priour to Menelik's time.
: There is no point in
: arguing you over this, as I maintain the historical record is heavily on
: my side, and extremely scant on yours.
I have always been aware that you and I will never agree on almost
anything but to convince you has was never my intention. Just like you I
maintain the facts hare heavily on my side.
: >
: > : Question 6. Are there shared cultural and religious values in Ethiopian
: > : life today?
: >
: > Yes there are but why should that matter in this discussion?
: Sharing of these values is just one of many, many indications of the
: existence of an Ethiopian state that transcended ethnicity, and
: facilitated the types of contacts that created these shared values in
: the first place.
Nonesense! The Oromo and the Somali people share more in common than
each one does with the Abyssinians (Amhara Tigre) but this does not
imply the existence of an or Oromo or a Somali state. The Benishangul
people share a lot in common with the sudanese than with the Abysinians
but this says nothing about the sudanese and abyssinian states. The take
home lesson for you is that neighbouring people can have shared values
without belonging to the same state. I know this does not sink in with
you.
: > The rest of what you wrote is totally irrelevant to the subject matter
: > and hence ignored.
: You may choose to ignore it, but I re-state it here. A State cannot be
: spontaneously destroyed and/or created just because,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are arguing with yourself. I never stated state can be SPONTANEOUSLY
created and/or destroyed. A concious deliberate action is needed either
way.
: To repeat my example, The United States was a federal union of 13 states
: in 1789. It is now a federation of fifty states. It's borders have
: grown, there are many more consituents to it's population - both
: quantitatively, and qualitatively.
Irrelevant example. The US was formed by voluntary union of sovereign
states. The Ethiopian empire state was formed by brute force. More than
1 million Oromos were killed by Menelik's army in the process. On the
contrary not a single gun was shour when the US was formed.
A more relevant example is the former Soviet Union which like Ethiopia
was an empire state. The Soviet Union has been dismantled. Tell me why
Ethiopia's fate should be different?
Makobili
smk
Negeri <neg...@nepo1.iaea.or.at> wrote:
>smk wrote:
>
>
>I am amazed that you, too, play the "American prescription" card for the present
>Ethiopian political landscape. I always wonder whether it is vnivity or political
>evasion to blame USA ignoring the objective realities and political forces in
>Ethiopia. What do you mean by 'which has divided Ethiopia'? Holding on your
>'Ethiopian nationalism' for the moment, and realize that Ethiopia was not a
>homogenous entity and there has been economic, political & cultural supression of the
>right of nations and nationalities to-date by successive governments. What you termed
>as 'divided Ethiopia' is the least or the fringe of the right to self determination.
>If this is division, how on earth would you engineer the geopolitics of Ethioipia so
>that at least each nation and nationality in that country shall govern it self in its
>own language and according to its own values. Or Sir, your prescription , as opposed
>to the "Americans" would be a unitary state at any cost and at the expense of each
>constituent nation in Ethiopia?
=========================================================================
For the last time, let me make my stand clear. I am not against each
ethnic group exercising its values and traditions. I just don't agree
that it takes the destruction of Ethiopia to achieve it. It should be the
last resort. My reference to America is based on the fact that TPLF led
coalition captured Addis and control of the country through American
help and it si fair to say that directly or indirectly the political
direction in Ethiopia, as in many other countries, is controlled by
America.
>Lastly, I am of an opinion that the people of Oromia, the largest nation in the horn,
>deserve better!!!!
>
>Negeri
========================================================================
Absolutely, but I belief that can be achieved without destroying a nation
that was built on their own shoulder. We must remember as the largest
nation in the horn that we did play a great part in building it. As the
Chinese say: "It is a bad economics to burn down your house to
inconvenience your mother-in-law." If it is the will of all Oromo people
that is demonstrated through untampered referendum, I have no problem
with any outcome of this self-determination movement for the Oromo people
to which I also belong. However, we need to offer people a balanced
account of Ethiopian histroty and its future.
Cheers,
Soressa.
promod project
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>
>
> : To repeat my example, The United States was a federal union of 13 states
> : in 1789. It is now a federation of fifty states. It's borders have
> : grown, there are many more consituents to it's population - both
> : quantitatively, and qualitatively.
>
> Irrelevant example. The US was formed by voluntary union of sovereign
> states.
states !! The biggest lesson of history!! I thought you were up to
distort history in our corner of the world to make your points, I see
now you will rewrite the history of the whole world to make you point!!
The Ethiopian empire state was formed by brute force. More than
> 1 million Oromos were killed by Menelik's army in the process.
Where did one milion Oromos died? You see, Makobili, not all `Oromos'
fought against Menilik's army.Not a single shot was fired when the 5
gibe Kingdoms, Leqa-Leqemt, and the other principlalities which became
today's Wellega all joined the empire peacfully. The Arsi ofcourse put
up a fierce resistance and there was prolonged war. But you have to
remember the bulk of Menilik's army was made of Oromos.
There were two more states that resisted Wellayta and Keffa. In the
case of Keffa, the resistance was broken by a two pronged attack by
Menilik and Jimma Aba Jiffar's(one of the 5 Gibe kingdoms that joined
the kingdom earlier) armies.
> On the contrary not a single gun was shour when the US was formed.
Tell that to the millions of native Americans like Cherokees!! Tell that
to Mexicans who lost Texas, Louisiana, Southern Florida, New Mexico
etc. What about maintaining that union? Have you heard of the American
Civil war?
>
> A more relevant example is the former Soviet Union which like Ethiopia
> was an empire state.
Really the soviet union was an empire state and the USA is the symbol of
democratic state formation? That coming from a former (MEISON) AESM
cadre is fun to hear! Ofcourse for a person who thinks the Oromo
expansion is "humane state formation" this is not surprising.
>The Soviet Union has been dismantled. Tell me why Ethiopia's fate
> should be different?
I do not aggree they are similar. But if you have the serious mind you
bragged about you can see the reason why the dismantling of the Soviet
Union is something to emulate.
selam leityoPya!
Araya
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <kitesss.18...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz>
>I will in a minute. First I want to know the kind of person I am dealing
>with. Holding all these anti-Ethiopian sentiments, why did you vote to
>create this newsgroup, a part of which you are a moderator?
I suppose it is nobody's business why and how I vote in cyberspace.
Regards,
Udub.
mako...@netcom.com
promod project (ams...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: mako...@netcom.com wrote:
: >
: >
: > : To repeat my example, The United States was a federal union of 13 states
: > : in 1789. It is now a federation of fifty states. It's borders have
: > : grown, there are many more consituents to it's population - both
: > : quantitatively, and qualitatively.
: >
: > Irrelevant example. The US was formed by voluntary union of sovereign
: > states.
: What?????? The U.S.of A formed by 1)voluntary union 2) from Sovereign
: states !! The biggest lesson of history!!
Yes, that is what I said. Go to the nearest library nearest you and peak
up any relevant book on US history and that is what you will find out.
Get back to me if you find any credible document that contradicts what I
said.
: I thought you were up to
: distort history in our corner of the world to make your points,
Distortion or straitening the facts is simply a matter of perspective.
The so called Ethiopian history has been based on distortions and to
those who are used to and benefit from the distortions statement of fact
appears to be distortions.
: The Ethiopian empire state was formed by brute force. More than
: > 1 million Oromos were killed by Menelik's army in the process.
: Where did one milion Oromos died?
In Oromia, of course, where else did you think it was. In addition to
those killed thousands of young men got there arms amputated and
thousands of women got their breasts cut of by the barbaric army of your
hero Menelik. Did you here anything about the battle of Annollee?
: You see, Makobili, not all `Oromos'
: fought against Menilik's army.Not a single shot was fired when the 5
: gibe Kingdoms, Leqa-Leqemt, and the other principlalities which became
: today's Wellega all joined the empire peacfully.
Not all Russians fought against Hitler also, but does that men millions
of people were not killed by the Nazis?
: The Arsi ofcourse put
: up a fierce resistance and there was prolonged war.
: But you have to
: remember the bulk of Menilik's army was made of Oromos.
Nonesense! Yet another Abyssinian distortion. The bulk of Menelik's
army were Amharas from northern Shewa.
: > A more relevant example is the former Soviet Union which like Ethiopia
: > was an empire state.
: Really the soviet union was an empire state and the USA is the symbol of
: democratic state formation?
Relatively speaking yes. But you just can't get it.
: That coming from a former (MEISON) AESM
: cadre is fun to hear!
Whether I was a former Meison cadre or not is not germane to this
discussion. Besides you have no proof of your allegation. Even at the
time you are refering you I was struggling for the total liberation of
the Oromo people, but again you just can't get it.
Makobili
smk
mhus...@osf1.gmu.edu (MUHAMMED HUSSEIN) wrote:
>In article <55ngjj$n...@raven.cc.ukans.edu> kumc.wpo.ukans.edu writes:
>
>>a group of a country that you believe its history is garbage and fulll
>>of lies? And now you and those in your concert believe that the
>>concept of the country is made up!
>
>
>represents a country whose members all subscribe to one idea ? And whose
>idea, by the way, you seem not to understand.
>
>Regards,
>Udub.
Udub,
It is now very clear to see the various shades of your personality. I
think, fellow Ethiopians and even those who don't identify with Ethiopia
should see the hidden agenda of this person. In my biased analysis, his
ulterior motive in supporting self-determination is to create small
nations with disorganised defence and governmnet out of a large strong
nation which his Somalian generals can easily walk over and at last
celebrate the "Great Somalian" dream. Even in our divided condition we
should be careful of who we have in our fold as a supportor. Our attempts
to create a better future for our people can be hijacked without any of
us realising it.
Cheers,
Soressa.
Gtgobena
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>Nobody is talking about clans here but about fully >developed large
>and distinct nations that want to be free and independent. >If you
>think I or Udub are talking about/for clans you have made >a big
>mistake and you have a lot of catching up to do.
Mr. Makobili,
What is the meaning of "developed large and distinct nations"? I am of
part Oromo extraction and do not know of an Oromia prior to these past few
years. I also am aware of the suffering and humiliation visited upon my
Oromo ancestors by my Amhara ancestors. But can I then conclude after
these facts that there is a distinct nation called Oromia in existence?
The cultural differences between various Oromo groups is just as great as
the difference between Oromos and non-Oromos (esp. Amharas, Sidamas,
Gurages and Somalis). On my Amhara side, I see the same differences in
culture among different Amhara regions. So what good comes out of
dismantling an intermixed nation or creating a sub-nation that does not
exist. In my opinion, only the personal ego satisfaction of power hungry
individuals, usually from the western part of "Oromia".
Gebrel Gobena
faisal hassan
On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, promod project wrote:
> Dear Faisal,
> What are you sayig here? Are you saying Ethiopia could not exist as a
> state before the 19 th century as modern statehood is a new phenomena
> in human race?
You know what I am talking about. Yes, Ethiopia as a nation is
a recent and it exists less than 3o years.
> May be you are trying to spew what you learned in your undergrad
> classes. But budgy what you were talking about was said about
> nation-states even that is full of anomalies.
Weak and ambiguous anomalies. Came back with strong arguments; Undergrad
students have written books in many different languages. They are full of
knowledge. Best historians in the 19th century never attended undergrad
studies. You need to open your eyes very wide and abandon 'Amhara'
mentality.
> I will ask you few questions to clarify my points thnk about them before
> you answer. Was there an English State before the 19th century? What
> about France, did it exist as a state before the 19th century? Closer
> home was there a state called Egypt?
As I have written here and elsewhere, this notion of Statehood is a
modern phonemena in the history of human race. This includes English,
French, Egyptinst and all nations of the world. I thought our discuss was
Ethiopia, not English, French, and Egpyt? Perhaps, you should ask
yourself, is there any other empire in the Northeast besides the
Abysinians? Zenj (puntland) and others? Why you are an Amhara and why I am
a Somali? Why some of us are Oromo, Afar, etc? Don't be defensive, face
the truth; if you don't no one will ever came to your rescue you when you
need help? Advice from Cune!
> I will throw in a more controversial piece here: was there an African
> state under Gerad Ahmed Ibrahim ElGazi(Ahmed guri, Ahmed graN) that
> streched from the Indian Ocean to the Nile in the 16th century?
> Araya
I am glad that you mentioned our Supreme-commander of the Somali forces
and a Somali hero who stood up against aggression in the HORN OF AFRICA.
Geesi! Ahmed Gurey a military man and the supreme-commander of (Army of
the Somali empire) then (Zenj) and the rest of the world was known the
Puntland. At that stage we were the same as any empire in the rest of the
world. Therefore, 16th century is not part of the modern statehood and the
rise of Nationhood in the modern world. I think, you should master the
basic things of eras and how societies moved from empire to modern
statehoods.
Nabad
Faisal Hassan.
promod project
faisal hassan wrote:
> The modern statehood is a new phonemona in the history of
> human race. Therefore, to suggestion that Ethiopia as state existed
> before 19 century is false and wishful thinking in the minds of many
> "Amhara"folks. face the facts!
What are you sayig here? Are you saying Ethiopia could not exist as a
state before the 19 th century as modern statehood is a new phenomena
in human race?
May be you are trying to spew what you learned in your undergrad
classes. But budgy what you were talking about was said about
nation-states even that is full of anomalies.
I will ask you few questions to clarify my points thnk about them before
you answer. Was there an English State before the 19th century? What
about France, did it exist as a state before the 19th century? Closer
home was there a state called Egypt?
I will throw in a more controversial piece here: was there an African
state under Gerad Ahmed Ibrahim ElGazi(Ahmed guri, Ahmed graN) that
streched from the Indian Ocean to the Nile in the 16th century?
selam leityoPya!
Araya
Negeri
Gtgobena wrote:
>
> Mr. Makobili,
> What is the meaning of "developed large and distinct nations"?
To be named a nation you need not be a registered member of the UN. A society
that numbers about 25 million people , with distinct & common language, located
in common and continious geographic location, with common socio-cultural make up
of a magnitude of the Gada system that stood against all odds of cultural
invasion is no less or more than a nation. I do not think it would take to be a
social anthropologist to realise this.
> I am of part Oromo extraction and do not know of an Oromia prior to these
>past few years.
What is this 'Oromo extraction' business? Are you an Oromo or not? I am not
asking you much. This is what you are asked in a sensus survey in any country of
the world. Any way, that is the very core of the manifestations of prolonged
oppression of the Oromos - till some of the segments of the people lose or
ashamed of their identities. And this is what has to be restored at a cost.
> The cultural differences between various Oromo groups is just as great as
> the difference between Oromos and non-Oromos (esp. Amharas, Sidamas,
> Gurages and Somalis).
This is an embarrasing argument on your part to put it mildly. How come do you
equate the minor differences among the same people with their stark difference
with others? I shall simply advise you to go back and talk to Oromo peasants
from every corner of Oromia and I can assure you that what you discover on the
ground worths your investment on the trip - the level of conciousness and the
national pride of the Oromo people in their uncompromised identity.
> On my Amhara side, I see the same differences in
> culture among different Amhara regions. So what good comes out of
> dismantling an intermixed nation or creating a sub-nation that does not
> exist. In my opinion, only the personal ego satisfaction of power hungry
> individuals, usually from the western part of "Oromia".
>
If it was a matter of personal ego, they could get it from any regime that come
and go in Ethiopia. As of course some did now and in the distant past. Let's
talk what went wrong rather than evading the problem and ascribing to what you
called the few power hungry.
Negeri
> Gebrel Gobena
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <55sia3$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> gtgo...@aol.com
(Gtgobena) writes:
>What is the meaning of "developed large and distinct nations"? I am of
>part Oromo extraction and do not know of an Oromia prior to these past few
>years.
Then, perhaps, you are an initiated person, or you deliberately ignore
basic facts every college student from the **HORN** knows about, or you
are indulging yourself in an intellectual dishonesty. Whichever the case
might be, you and only you would have to evaluate. I say this because you
need not write this kind of comments in a public forum supposedly
frequented by grown-ups.
Regards,
Udub.
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <55ts56$1...@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> smk
<kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz> writes:
>Udub,
>It is now very clear to see the various shades of your personality.
Are you some sort of "psychatarist" ? Now, it seems to me, you are running
to personality analysis after all your other arguments have been sent to
oblivion both by Makobili and me.
Regards,
Udub.
smk
Very true! I seem to remember that you were actually campaingning to
create a newsgroup to discuss the culture, politics, etc of a country
that you don't belief exsisted at all. You see Udub, I lkie people who
have standards and mean what they say. Your Oromo sympathy does not wash
with me; it's also another charade. I have heard personal witnesses of
what your people did to the Harar Oromo during your campaign to create
your "Great Soamalia". Once we get over our family feud which is
trearing us apart, we are bound to weed out all those who are parading
among us as foxes-in-sheep-skin. Until then, enjoy your temporary haven.
Sincere regards,
Soressa.
promod project
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
(stuff deleted)
> : That coming from a former (MEISON) AESM
> : cadre is fun to hear!
>
> Whether I was a former Meison cadre or not is not germane to this
> discussion. Besides you have no proof of your allegation.
Ethiopian Socialist Movement. But the point is not irrelevant to the
issue. You see I was a kid when MEISON and EPRP and others were at each
others throat, both claiming to be truer Communist than the other.
MEISON worked with the government and its cadres were making us scream
"Down with the cannibalistic American Imperialism!!" zillion times.
That came to my mind when I read your piece about the USA and wrote what
I felt. But it revealed the good old slimmy, side tracking Makobili once
more!! You did not stand up like your friend Dereje Alemayehu and argue
the fall of the Berlin wall does not make imperialism better. Or you
did not come and say that was then, now your views are different,
rather you deny MEISON membership altogether!! Ofcourse your name
was not Makobili then.
> Even at the
> time you are refering you I was struggling for the total liberation of
> the Oromo people, but again you just can't get it.
Right! You were the dergue's `guest' in 4th Division headquarters
because you were an OLF cadre. That actually fits well with your denial
of MEISON.
O boy! this is retrofitting the past to justify and fit present
political position at its max.
selam leityoPya!
Araya
Zewdie Bachore
In article <32833F...@pitt.edu>, ams...@pitt.edu says...
>
>mako...@netcom.com wrote:
>(stuff deleted)
>> : That coming from a former (MEISON) AESM
>> : cadre is fun to hear!
>>
>> Whether I was a former Meison cadre or not is not germane to this
>> discussion. Besides you have no proof of your allegation.
>I am sorry I was carried away and included you former membership in All
>Ethiopian Socialist Movement. But the point is not irrelevant to the
>issue. You see I was a kid when MEISON and EPRP and others were at each
>others throat, both claiming to be truer Communist than the other.
>MEISON worked with the government and its cadres were making us scream
>"Down with the cannibalistic American Imperialism!!" zillion times.
>That came to my mind when I read your piece about the USA and wrote what
>I felt. But it revealed the good old slimmy, side tracking Makobili once
>more!! You did not stand up like your friend Dereje Alemayehu and argue
>the fall of the Berlin wall does not make imperialism better. Or you
>did not come and say that was then, now your views are different,
>rather you deny MEISON membership altogether!! Ofcourse your name
>was not Makobili then.
Araya,
We are learning about this man's true identity ... please give us more!
>
>> Even at the
>> time you are refering you I was struggling for the total liberation of
>> the Oromo people, but again you just can't get it.
>Right! You were the dergue's `guest' in 4th Division headquarters
>because you were an OLF cadre. That actually fits well with your denial
>of MEISON.
So, this man is actually another Mengistu in the making, except
mostly in cyberspace .... pew! Thank God!
mako...@netcom.com
:akobiliE...@netcom.com> <32833F...@pitt.edu>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
promod project (ams...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: mako...@netcom.com wrote:
: (stuff deleted)
: > : That coming from a former (MEISON) AESM
: > : cadre is fun to hear!
: >
: > Whether I was a former Meison cadre or not is not germane to this
: > discussion. Besides you have no proof of your allegation.
: But the point is not irrelevant to the
: issue. You see I was a kid when MEISON and EPRP and others were at each
: others throat, both claiming to be truer Communist than the other.
: MEISON worked with the government and its cadres were making us scream
: "Down with the cannibalistic American Imperialism!!" zillion times.
: That came to my mind when I read your piece about the USA and wrote what
: I felt. But it revealed the good old slimmy, side tracking Makobili once
: more!!
It is a well known fact that those who cannot defend their indefensible
positions with facts and and logic resort to attacking the personality of
their opponent and that is exactly what what you are doing. You cannot
admit the well known fact that Ethiopia is a colonial construct that came
into being during the last quarter of the 19th century as result of an
ugly marriage between European colonialism and an Abyssinian warlord, and
you cannot present facts to contradict it. You therefore have to try to
silence me by bringing in irrelevant personal attacks. But I have a bad
news for you. Many Abbysinians have tried this tactic against me in the
past, you yourself has tried it on several occasions, but it failed
miserably. No matter how hard you work you can never stop me from
speakin out the facts. No power on earth will ever be able to prevent me
from exposing the lies and distorions about Ethiopia.
Now that you brought up about my beliefs and activities in the mid
seventies let me sum them up for you.
(1) I took part in the struggle that led to the end of the Abyssinian
Monarchy that has its roots in your hero Menelik.
(2) I was an active participant in the struggle that eventually led to
the Land Proclamation Act. As you know very well that Proclamation took
land from Abyssian landlords, including your own parents, and gave it to
the natural owners -- Oromo farmers and other peoples south of
Abyssinia.
(3) I struggled against your heros in the EPRP who among other things were
opposed to the Land Proclamation Act of 1975 (as you know very well, they
called it " proclamation of slavery") and were against the empowerment of
the Oromo people and other peoples south of Abyssinia.
(4) My goal was to empower oppressed people and that was why Mengistu
Haile Mariam, your other hero, jailed me for many years. To your
surprise the charge against me was that I, togher with people like me,
wanted to liberate the Oromo people. Am sure if you ask your cousins,
those who are now ruling Ethiopia, they can pool out whatever file
Mengistu's men had against me and give it to you. What I said above is
what you will find.
(5) Finally, if time were to roll back and we were in the mid 1970s,
would I do now what I did then? You bet I will.
This is all I will say about myself and if you and your folks would
prefer to contine talking about me, I suggest you establish a newsgroup
dedicated to the subject.
Makobili
mako...@netcom.com
:akobiliE...@netcom.com> <32833F...@pitt.edu>
<5600hq$m...@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Zewdie Bachore (zbac...@kumc.edu) wrote:
: Araya,
: We are learning about this man's true identity ... please give us more!
Ms. Bachore:
Most people write because they have something to say. You clearly do not
fall in this category of people. You have no new ideas and no facts
whatsoever to share with people. Why don't you then just shut up and
listen to what others have to say?
Makobili
abugeda
Hi all,
This thread is really so symptomatic of the sad realities of the
political conditions in Ethiopia.
Many individuals in the western world have developed "THEORIES" (please
note the emphasis), to explain the "REAL" world as we see it. This is
response to the rise and success of what is called "The Scientific
Method". Fundamentally, the scientific method requires that to
understand the world, one sets a hypothesis, and then one would test the
observations from the real world against the established hypothesis. If
the THEORY fits the FACTS, then fine - the theory is an accepted way of
explaining the world. Otherwise, the REALITY is and must be superior,
and a new hypothesis developed.
Negeri wrote:
>
> Gtgobena wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Makobili,
> > What is the meaning of "developed large and distinct nations"?
>
> To be named a nation you need not be a registered member of the UN. A society
> that numbers about 25 million people , with distinct & common language, located
> in common and continious geographic location, with common socio-cultural make up
> of a magnitude of the Gada system that stood against all odds of cultural
> invasion is no less or more than a nation. I do not think it would take to be a
> social anthropologist to realise this.
The above description of what constitutes a nation is a THEORY - one
Josef Stalin the murderer developed. It is in fact so nebulous, that it
is a useless definition to use if one is to try and use it to develop
further undertanding of society. What is "common socio-cultural makeup"?
What of groups that fit one description and not the other, e.g. like the
Agaw speakers in Ethiopia, which do not live in a contiguous geographic
location? Or how about the Gurage, which do not have a single language,
but a group of languages that are so different that they are mutually
unintelligible to some? Or how about the Somali speakers, who fit the
THEORY to a tee, but obviously do not quite see eye to eye? Or how about
the Jews - no common "socio-cultural" makeup, a huge number who do not
speak Hebrew, geographically almost as widespread as there is land on
the planet?
We have somehow warped the priorities to where REALITY is expected to
change to fit the THEORY.
> > I am of part Oromo extraction and do not know of an Oromia prior to these
> >past few years.
>
> What is this 'Oromo extraction' business? Are you an Oromo or not? I am not
> asking you much. This is what you are asked in a sensus survey in any country of
> the world. Any way, that is the very core of the manifestations of prolonged
> oppression of the Oromos - till some of the segments of the people lose or
> ashamed of their identities. And this is what has to be restored at a cost.
>
Why should he say "what" he is? So what if his definition of who he is
does not fit the Stalin developed THEORY of what a Nation or any other
social group is? So what if his personal identity does not conveniently
fit the definition Negeri or Makobili are using to further their
political objectives? Who in heaven's name has the right to demand that
a person choose between his parents? And the scary part is (please note
Negeri's statement "And this is what has to be restored at a cost") -
should these guys have the power to do so, they would demand that he
does choose, or else ....! What "cost" are you talking about? Just to
fit a THEORY?!
I have seen many Ethiopians mention their "mixed-ethnic" lineage in
public, with an almost apologetic tone of "what of me..." It is nobody's
business what "ethnicity" one is, and no Ethiopian should be compelled
to feel embarrased about having the proud lineage of parents who were
human enough and courageous enough to transcend whatever differeneces
they had - large or small - to love each other and bring the gift of
children to this world. It is a betrayal of their precious legacy to
have to feel that one does not quite belong.
> > The cultural differences between various Oromo groups is just as great as
> > the difference between Oromos and non-Oromos (esp. Amharas, Sidamas,
> > Gurages and Somalis).
>
> This is an embarrasing argument on your part to put it mildly. How come do you
> equate the minor differences among the same people with their stark difference
> with others? I shall simply advise you to go back and talk to Oromo peasants
> from every corner of Oromia and I can assure you that what you discover on the
> ground worths your investment on the trip - the level of conciousness and the
> national pride of the Oromo people in their uncompromised identity.
I challenge anyone to point out any "stark difference" between the Oromo
speaking peasants of Ethiopia, and any Ethiopian peasant whose mother
tongue is not Oromo! Please define what an Oromo is, and what an Amhara
is or what a Somali is?
> > On my Amhara side, I see the same differences in
> > culture among different Amhara regions. So what good comes out of
> > dismantling an intermixed nation or creating a sub-nation that does not
> > exist. In my opinion, only the personal ego satisfaction of power hungry
> > individuals, usually from the western part of "Oromia".
> >
>
> If it was a matter of personal ego, they could get it from any regime that come
> and go in Ethiopia. As of course some did now and in the distant past. Let's
> talk what went wrong rather than evading the problem and ascribing to what you
> called the few power hungry.
>
> Negeri
>
> > Gebrel Gobena
The weird thing about this incessant clamor about politics and ethnicity
in Ethiopia is that it has acquired a false air of being scientific.
Science demands that we earn knowledge and understanding of the world
about us by successively developing THEORIES that we then test against
observed REALITIES. It is a sick perversion of science when the world is
forced to change in order to fit a THEORY.
The cost to humanity of this perversion is not simply academic. Adolf
Hitler tried to eliminate the Jews because the REALITY of their
existence did not agree with his THEORY of what constitutes a human
being. The Khmer Rouge of Cambodia systematically murdered over a
million of their own people because the REALITY of Cambodian society did
not quite fit their THEORY of what a class-less and pure society should
look like. The "intellectuals" of the Ethiopian leftist movement of the
mid-seventies (of whom makobili was one) tried to fit the REALITY of
Ethiopian society to the different flavors of communist THEORY of what a
just society is supposed to look like, and thus ended up slaughtering
the cream of Ethiopia's educated, motivated and idealistic youth.
The same confusion of THEORY and REALITY is at the heart of claims by
Makobili, Faisal and their ilk that Ethiopia does not exist. The current
THEORY of what a state is that they subscribe to is just that - a
THEORY. That there was a geographic and political entity called Ethiopia
in the Northeastern africa region for centuries is a FACT of documented
record. Just because the European developed THEORY does not describe
this entity does not change the reality of it. On the other hand, maybe
Makobili, Negeri and Faisal should stop being Eurocentric, and stop
looking at the world through a perspective that was developed to
describe European reality.
abugeda
abugeda
Dear Faisal,
faisal hassan wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, abugeda wrote:
>
> >
> > 2. Why would the European colonizers do that? Why did not the European
> > colonizers do away with the Amhara if they were too lazy for the
> > Europeans' liking?
>
> You missed the whole point. Amharas were lazy compare to the other
> Africans in the area. Therefore, the European colonizers felt that through
> the lazy 'Amhara' they could achieve their goals and objectives in this
> part of the world. When, the European left they transfered their subjects
> to the lazy 'Amharas' to continue that colonialization. This has been
> achieved through the Berlin conference.
I am pretty sure that you do not own a business, or hold any position of
authority - because you are demonstrating your total ignorance of what
delegating authority is. Let me try to demonstrate how silly your
statement above is; promise me you will not do anything drastic, like
picking up a pen or sipping water, that might occupy your brain.
If you have worked hard at developing a business, would you leave
someone who you know is lazy and irresponsible, to mind the store and
cash register for you while you are away?
> > 3. You have a couple of problems here.
> > a) I never used the term "modern state"
> > b) You obviously are a Euro-centric person (It means you only see the
> > world the way Europeans want you to see it - a good colonially
> > constructed mind you have - bravo!)
>
> What is Euro-centric person? What you said is in the record? Please read
> it very carefully.
>
Euro-centric world view looks at the world through a European
perspective. It says things like "The Greeks were the source of all
knowledge"(even though there have been older and mightier civilization
like the Egyptians), "America was discovered in 1492 by Columbus" (even
though there have been native residents in America for thousands of
years), "States developed for the first time in the world, in the Europe
of the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries"(even though there have been
states like Ethiopia before this time period). A Euro-centric person
would accept this type of analysis and extend it for other things.
> What is your definition of Ethiopia? According to history and the
> historical documents. Haud, Ogaden, Reserve Area was under the British
> colony? Be specific when you are stating statements like this. This makes
> Ethiopia as a consrtucted colony!
>
> > 5. Need I say more about your Euro-centric thinking?
>
Another indication of Euro-centric thinking is a statement like "a State
called Ethiopia was created by the Colonialists". The assumption behind
this statement would be that Africans are incapable of creating and
forming their own states, because all ideas about the formation and
growth of states could have only come from Europeans, who are the only
ones capable of thinking about such things.
> Contradiction and dillemas. You were the individual who tried to explain
> what ethnic groups are in Ethiopia? Is it a reasonable discourse to ask
> you what are your definition of ethnic groups you have in mind. When, I
> explained my definition of ethnic groups, you label me as beeing
> "Euro-centric thinker". You cann't have both ways. Came the centre of the
> debate or quit your nonsense.
First of all, the "Contradictions and dillemas" are all in your head.
Secondly, I never tried to explain what "ethnic groups" are in Ethiopia.
I still do not have a good definition of ethnic groups in mind, so you
are welcome to help me. But I categorically reject the definition you
used, because it was developed to fit European realities, and does not
fit Northeast African realities. If you use this definition developed
for European realities, then you have Eurocentric thinking.
> > 6. If you read my post in the context of the whole message, you could
> > have understood. But then again, you did master all there is to know
> > about history and state formation at the high school level, so I am
> > humbled by the shining radiance of your wisdom and knowledge, O wise
> > one!
>
> Not only history but also Latin, greek, Osmaaneen, Science and more. You
> see, I have met your kind in many places. You see, when you are losing
> the debate, you are resorting to name calling such as Euro-centric. Can
> you first and foremost define for me and the readers what is meant
> Euro-centric? Then, I'll be able to respond to your accusation?
I think I will be civil here and apologize for calling you Euro-centric.
What I can say however, is that your thinking about the ethnic groups is
Euro-Centric. Please do not consider this "name-calling" or an
accusation, it is simply a description of the way you analyze the issue.
have a good day!
abugeda
teg...@acsu.buffalo.edu
<snip>.............
> Now that you brought up about my beliefs and activities in the mid
> seventies let me sum them up for you.
>
> (1) I took part in the struggle that led to the end of the Abyssinian
> Monarchy that has its roots in your hero Menelik.
>
> (2) I was an active participant in the struggle that eventually led to
> the Land Proclamation Act. As you know very well that Proclamation took
> land from Abyssian landlords, including your own parents, and gave it to
> the natural owners -- Oromo farmers and other peoples south of
> Abyssinia.
>
> (3) I struggled against your heros in the EPRP who among other things were
> opposed to the Land Proclamation Act of 1975 (as you know very well, they
> called it " proclamation of slavery") and were against the empowerment of
> the Oromo people and other peoples south of Abyssinia.
>
> (4) My goal was to empower oppressed people and that was why Mengistu
> Haile Mariam, your other hero, jailed me for many years. To your
> surprise the charge against me was that I, togher with people like me,
> wanted to liberate the Oromo people. Am sure if you ask your cousins,
> those who are now ruling Ethiopia, they can pool out whatever file
> Mengistu's men had against me and give it to you. What I said above is
> what you will find.
>
> (5) Finally, if time were to roll back and we were in the mid 1970s,
> would I do now what I did then? You bet I will.
>
>
>
>
>
The above statements make a lot of things very clear including the fact
that your thinking is anchored with socio-political conditions that
existed before the revolution. You are making the same assertions day in
day out that were made by your kinds two decades ago. While much has
changed in Ethiopia and else where in the world, you have remained
fixated with alleged incidents that occurred a 100 years ago.
Ironically, political and military activities of the Ethiopian government
during 1890s are a source of pride and hope not only to Ethiopians but
also to all Africans. The same emperor, whom you love to hate, defeated
western colonialists for the first time with the help of unparalleled
devotion of Ethiopians from all walks of life. And yet your "fact" reads
"he was a partener to colonialists." The level of responce to the
emperor's call for defending Ethiopia was so large that even your grand
parents might have fought in the BATTLE OF ADOWA. Here also, there is
nothing you can't say to paint him as a monster.
Your fondness to the 1970s is such that you dream of bringing the period
back to the future and living it the same way as you did before. Can't you
have a better dream? Your struggle was misguided then as it is ridiculous
now.
abugeda
Hi Gebrel,
Fantastic response, I can only say that I identify with you totally.
Very Good!
abugeda
==============================================================================
gtgo...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Negeri <neg...@nepo1.iaea.or.at> wrote:
>
> >To be named a nation you need not be a registered member >of the UN. A
> society that numbers about 25 million people >, with distinct & common
> language, located
> >in common and continious geographic location, with >common socio-cultural
> make up
> >of a magnitude of the Gada system that stood against all >odds of
> cultural
> >invasion is no less or more than a nation. I do not think it >would take
> to be a
> >social anthropologist to realise this.
>
> cultural makeup, continuous geographic location and resistance to cultural
> invasion. You can say that about the all the people of the horn of Africa
> and you can say that about all Ethiopians. So why don't you look for the
> nationhood of larger areas which will be beneficial to all its inhabitants
> (There is strength in size). The struggle must be for a fair and
> representative governance not for smaller and weaker nations. Only the
> people who want to suppress and take advantage of Africans benefit from
> ethnic nationhood. Look at Somalia, what benefit did they get from being a
> mono-ethnic, a momo-religious county. Nothing, only the symbol of
> anarchy and division. Look at Eritrea. I know of many Eritreans who
> sacrificed a lot for the creation of a nation and now find out that it was
> in vain because they cannot go and live there. It has been hijacked by a
> total dictatorship. So they go to Ethiopia.
>
> >What is this 'Oromo extraction' business? Are you an Oromo or not? I am
> not
> >asking you much. This is what you are asked in a sensus survey in any
> country of
> >the world. Any way, that is the very core of the manifestations of
> prolonged
> >oppression of the Oromos - till some of the segments of the people lose
> or
> >ashamed of their identities. And this is what has to be restored at a
> cost.
>
> Wello. What is your problem with this? Am I going to be forced to chose
> one over the other? I am extremely proud of my Oromo heritage so dont
> lecture me on that. You are the one with identity problem because your
> Oromo-ness only comes out as it relates to Amharas or whomever else you
> dislike.
>
> >This is an embarrasing argument on your part to put it mildly. How come
> do you
> >equate the minor differences among the same people with their stark
> difference
> >with others? I shall simply advise you to go back and talk to Oromo
> peasants
> >from every corner of Oromia and I can assure you that what you discover
> on the
> >ground worths your investment on the trip - the level of conciousness and
> the
> >national pride of the Oromo people in their uncompromised identity.
>
> little difference between the Amhara and Oromo. During zemecha I went to
> Harer. While there I noticed that the Qottu were very similar to the
> Somali than they were to the Oromo in Wello. For the average person this
> is the obvious. See, it takes an "educated social anthropologist" to tell
> us that the Oromo in Wello and Harer are the same people. I have never
> been to Borena or Wellega or some other Oromo regions. If the difference
> between Wello and Harer that are geographically close is so significant I
> can imagine the difference between far apart areas. This is not to deny
> that there is no Oromo identity. But through centuries of cultural and
> blood contacts different Oromo identities have developed.
>
> >If it was a matter of personal ego, they could get it from any regime
> that come
> >and go in Ethiopia. As of course some did now and in the distant past.
> Let's
> >talk what went wrong rather than evading the problem and ascribing to
> what you
> >called the few power hungry.
>
> all the current rhetoric and "principles" had the current regime been a
> little more flexible. I also would like to ask you why the leadership of
> this Oromia movement is almost exclusively from Wellega?
MUHAMMED HUSSEIN
In article <55ubg1$1...@kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> smk
<kit...@whio.lincoln.ac.nz> writes:
>>I suppose it is nobody's business why and how I vote in cyberspace.
>Very true!
Thanks for seeing the light.
Regards,
Udub.
gtgo...@aol.com
Gabriel Haile
To Mohammed Hussein and Co.
Woreeyah, I am confused by your postings. You preach about AFRICAN
BROTHERHOOD but preach about ethnic hatred. You can hate a system but
you can not hate a whole people. I would have thought that you would
have learned that by now. Look at SOMALIA , Rwanda and Liberia.
If you want to find brotherhood go to Addis where tens of thousands of
your brethren are today. Your brothers and sisters go to our schools.
Your fathers and mothers go to our limited hospitals. Your grandparents
go to our mosques and churches (the ones Jalala has converted). We have
extended the same hospitality before to African brothers from all over
the continent. Read Nelson Mandelas memoirs.
Ethiopian (HABASHI) students have shed their blood in every corner of
the country carrying slogans such as “Land to the Tiller” and “Self
Determination for nations and nationalities” . These were Oromo, Amhara,
Tigre, Adere, Gurage ....and even SOMALI Ethiopians. They knew the
system was wrong an struggled to change it.
When Mengistu turned his guns on these idealistic young folks some picked
up arms and joined various movements. Hundreds of thousands become
refugees in the surrounding countries. You see, the Kenyans, Sudanese
and Afars were there to help these Ethiopians in their our of need. The
unlucky ones who ended up in Somalia on the other hand were massacred or
were sent to the front line of the 1977/78 Ethio-Somali war for target
practice. This holocaust occurred because of Siad Barres propaganda that
HABASHI’s were the root of all evil. The average Somali could not
conceive or comprehend that these Habashis were actually enemies of
Mengistu and that these Habshis were fighting for the rights of all
Ethiopians including the people of the Ogaden. I WAS THERE! SO PLEASE
SPARE ME YOUR CROCODILE TEARS!
As to maligning the history of Ethiopia I am confused also, Woreeyah. I
am sure your comments are not out of ignorance but out of jealousy and
rage. The only way you can feel good about yourself and about Somalia is
by bringing Ethiopia and Ethiopian history down. Like I said above
Ethiopia like every other feudal country had the landlords and the
peasants, the oppressors and the oppressed. However, this was not ethnic
but class based (there was the Oromo king as well as the Amhara and
Tigre)..
When you talk about the colonialists leaving/giving the Ogaden to
Ethiopia ..I guess you haven’t heard of the battle of Adwa (Ask your
buddy Belete - he claims his grandfather was there ) or the various
battles against the Italians in Harar. Who were leading the charges for
the Italians in Hararge? No other than their Somali servants! You want
to know other reasons for Ethiopia’s’ claim to fame besides being the
ONLY BLACK COUNTRY THAT DEFEATED COLONIALISM AND WAS A BEACON FOR BLACK
PRIDE ALL OVER THE WORLD? READ THE KORAN AND THE BIBLE (JALALA WILL BE
GLAD TO SEND YOU ONE)!
Nabad.
PS: I am one one of the silent majority who browse this service looking
for worthwile news. However, I finally had enough of your bull and had
to say my piece. Believe me there are thousands of us out there! We
simply ignore you and also laugh at the very able response you are
getting from other brothers and systers (like SORESA and ARAYA). Please
leave Ethiopia alone and spend your time to bring peace to Somalia!
M.A
LWH...@prodigy.com (Gabriel Haile) wrote:
>To Mohammed Hussein and Co.
>Woreeyah, I am confused by your postings. You preach about AFRICAN
>BROTHERHOOD but preach about ethnic hatred. You can hate a system but
>you can not hate a whole people. I would have thought that you would
>have learned that by now. Look at SOMALIA , Rwanda and Liberia.
Ante Haile,
One can always highlight about African unity and at the same time
talk about the inequities and injustice that exist amongst them and
that is exactly what Muhammed hussein is doing..
Your brothers and you say that there has never been oppression,
inequalities, atrocities,humiliations, carnage from the authorities of
on ethnic group to the other and we say, there was and there is as we
speak today.
>If you want to find brotherhood go to Addis where tens of thousands of
>your brethren are today. Your brothers and sisters go to our schools.
>Your fathers and mothers go to our limited hospitals. Your grandparents
>go to our mosques and churches (the ones Jalala has converted). We have
>extended the same hospitality before to African brothers from all over
>the continent. Read Nelson Mandelas memoirs.
If there is some change (which is not true), it is what rightly
belongs to us. I know today there is still killings and
marginaliztions unchecked
>Ethiopian (HABASHI) students have shed their blood in every corner of
>the country carrying slogans such as “Land to the Tiller” and “Self
>Determination for nations and nationalities” . These were Oromo, Amhara,
>Tigre, Adere, Gurage ....and even SOMALI Ethiopians. They knew the
>system was wrong an struggled to change it.
True and you aren't one of them.
>When Mengistu turned his guns on these idealistic young folks some picked
>up arms and joined various movements. Hundreds of thousands become
>refugees in the surrounding countries. You see, the Kenyans, Sudanese
>and Afars were there to help these Ethiopians in their our of need. The
>unlucky ones who ended up in Somalia on the other hand were massacred or
>were sent to the front line of the 1977/78 Ethio-Somali war for target
>practice.
Not true! There were about twenty or so students who were in jail and
who later emigrated to the U.S and Canada. Many of us have protested
about their incarcerations.
However, why don't you talk about the hundreds of Somalis who were
natives of Jigiga for instance, that were slaughtered the few days
before evacutions of the town by neftegna frenzy. How about those
hostage clan elders who were senslessly killed near the Marda Pass and
mind you they were prisoners!
How about the indiscriminate poisening of wells, and those war planes
that terrorized and killed innocent civillians. The list is endless.
Be fair and talk about that too.
Dehna hun
M.A
Btw I am glad that they have finally given you the go ahead to
doodle on this Ethiopian walls.
promod project
mako...@netcom.com wrote:
> This is all I will say about myself and if you and your folks would
> prefer to contine talking about me, I suggest you establish a
> newsgroupdedicated to the subject.
>
> Makobili
Dear Makobili,
Thanks for the response. It was not my intention to bring anything
personal to discussion here. Like I said before I was amused with
your position now with repect to your association. You came out and
denied that association and went further to prepare the ground to
retrofit your past to your present standing as a "champion of Oromo
freedom". That is fine with me.
Let me tell you one thing: I will be happiest to see the Oromo people
free; free from opression, hunger and epidemics, free to seek their
progress in economics, culture, science and technology; free to run
their lives and have a direct representation in every level of the
state. When the Oromo are free part of me, a good chunk of me, is
free. My position is this freedom can only be achieved if we struggle
together to bring a systemic change and put in place an equitable
system of state in place in the whole of what is today's Ethiopia.
As long as we do not put in place from the grass roots up a mechanism
to empower the people, we will not achieve the aim of freeing our people
we will only change who sits in Menilik's palace and the smaller
versions we will create elsewhere. Case in point Eritrea, Somaliland.
I say our energy and resources are better spent struggling for this
end instead of in an effort to create ethnic nations. The problems
of our people are very similar irrespective of what corner of the
country they live at. The basic problem is the absence of a
representative form of government where the people have dircet say in
the decision process. Be it during the regime of the monarchy or the
junta or today's EPRDF few elites accross the country decide on the
fate of our people. Our people be it Amharas, Oromos, Somalis, or Tigres
never had and still do not have a say on the affairs of their country.
A separate state may fly flag and create cabinet positions for the elite
to occupy but will it change the lot of Gadissa or DebalKE, or Hagos
or Faisal?? That is my question. If we create mono-ethnic separate
states, will that solve the fundamental problem we have. The case of
Somalia tells us other wise.
Concerning history we can argue till hell freeze and reach nowhere.
Because we can quote and interprete texts to back our arguments, we
can redicule eachothers references etc and still be no closer. Will
that be of help to our people is the question we need to ask. Ofcourse
I know the `history' is used as justification for political positions.
History is also being is used to mobilize people by political
organizations. To mobilizie people to separation ofcourse you have to
stress differences and create us vs them scenario. My fear is this has
consequences too ghastly even to think of as shown in Bosnia etc.
So my brother with that note I will say a few things about the state
of Ethiopia. I believe the modern state of Ethiopia is a continuation
of the many states that existed in the area for thousands of years.
(The name Ethiopia was used in the 4th century in the title of the
Axumite King Ezana in the Greek version of his inscription.)
From the earliest days the Ethiopian state has been a multi-ethnic
state with many autonomous states forming a feudal version of a
fereration, that is the significance of the title neguse-negest, i.e
King of Kings. It is indeed fitting the only King of Kings who reigned
on Ethiopia without any other Kings, the one who created a total
absolutist state, called himself Emperor Haileselassie.
The medival Ethiopian kingdom has roughly today's Ethiopia's borders
(see the 16 th century map of Alvarez) but then unlike today borders
are not fixed things. You see borders show only the limits of the
state's influence as signified by tribute paying. Since the borders of
each king is also defined as such the whole thing is very fluid.
When the state is stronger it brings in more areas under its influence
and its size increases and when the state weakens, its size shrinks.
It is only with the coming of the Europeans to the region as colonizers
Ethiopia got a fixed border. That is perhaps one reason people argue
Ethiopia is a colonial construct. But the argument leaves out the major
factor in the equation, the internal dynamics of what is today's
Ethiopia! The Europeans never botherd to consider Ethiopia a factor
until the Adwa victory. Before then they proceeded from the coast to the
interior without any regard to the protests of Atse Yohannes IV and Atse
Menilik. They negotiated only after Ethiopia showed some strength. Mind
you in 1935 the European countries like Britain recognized Italian
authority over Ethiopia even if they have previously recognized Ethiopia
as Sovergin nation and Atse Haileselassie was protesting while in exile
in their own country!! Why? Simply Ethiopia was weak then.
The modern state in Ethiopia was a result of a very complicated internal
dynamics. The formation of the Oromo Kingdoms in the Ghibe valley and
the West, the reunification of the Northern and Central Highlands are
local processes that facilitated the event. In the North Kassa Hailu
a soldier in the army of local notables rose to renown in the battles
against the Egyptians pushing from the West-today's Sudan. Kassa,
who later became King Tewodros II was the first of the Kings who rose
on the Ethiopian scene in the 19th century and pushed the state to
a higher strength that led to the modern state of Ethiopia.
The process in which the modern state of Ethiopia came to being is
complicated. The coming of the colonialsts complicated the process
further. I can not do justice to it with this article. But one thing
has to be mentioned. There has been many attrocities comitted by the
army of the Kings during the process. Gojjam, Gonder, Tigray and Wello
got their share during Tewdros' reign. Yohanne's army ravaged Wag and
Lasta, and Gojjam. Wellayta, Arsi and Keffa were ravaged by Menilik's
army. All the acts of savagery committed are deplorable. It is our
shame and our saddness, pain. But any attempt to ethnicize this acts
is very dishonest. Even more dishonest is any attempt to deny such
things ever happened or exaggerate them.
The first step is recognizing the past injustice and working together
to build a better future. So in our discusions here as passionate as
we may be, we should never loose sight of the issue no one in his right
mind diasagrees with: the issue here is the freedom and progress of
our people. A prosperous and free society is our city on the mountain,
the beacon we should always follow.
We this I bow out of the discussions for few weeks. I hope something
positive for our people can come out of this discussons.
selam leityoPya!
Araya Amsalu
faisal hassan
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, abugeda wrote:
> I am pretty sure that you do not own a business, or hold any position of
> authority - because you are demonstrating your total ignorance of what
> delegating authority is. Let me try to demonstrate how silly your
> statement above is; promise me you will not do anything drastic, like
> picking up a pen or sipping water, that might occupy your brain.
Mudane abugeda:
What does my owning a business has to do that Ethiopia is socially
constructed colony on the expense of the African people. Now, you are
talking about the language of Marx Waber of Germany? And his theory of
power? Contradiction? Listen, let the readers decide who is talking about
nonsense? You are accusing me of being Euro-centric and at the same time,
you are bringing the debate into the work of Waber? I don't get your
point? Ethiopia is a socially constructed colony. I am sure, you have
learn a great deal of knowledge from a Somali undergrad student. Please
get back to the subject matter.
> If you have worked hard at developing a business, would you leave
> someone who you know is lazy and irresponsible, to mind the store and
> cash register for you while you are away?
> > > 3. You have a couple of problems here.
> > > a) I never used the term "modern state"
> > > b) You obviously are a Euro-centric person (It means you only see the
> > > world the way Europeans want you to see it - a good colonially
> > > constructed mind you have - bravo!)
Listen! I have created jobs for your Amhara brothers. However, this is not
the subject matter. Therefore, I'll not talk about my job creation and my
management skills. You see, you did; Government is a modern concept on the
history of human race. This is how you put it, you said 'Ethiopia existed
as Government' My respond: Government is a modern concept. therfeore,
Ethiopia was created my the racism Churchhill? A man who describe the
African people savages! Please, you must separate me from the likes of
Churchhill? That's, if Euro-centric means just that!
> Euro-centric world view looks at the world through a European
> perspective. It says things like "The Greeks were the source of all
> knowledge"(even though there have been older and mightier civilization
> like the Egyptians), "America was discovered in 1492 by Columbus" (even
> though there have been native residents in America for thousands of
> years), "States developed for the first time in the world, in the Europe
> of the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries"(even though there have been
> states like Ethiopia before this time period). A Euro-centric person
> would accept this type of analysis and extend it for other things.
Listen. Perhaps, the word is generic. Would it be appropriate to consider
you Amhara-centric whose view of the world is based on or looks at the
world through an Amhara perspective. Then, the definition of an
Amhara-centric would be similar of your definition of 'Euro-centric'
However, the difference would be one sees the world through an
Amharas perspective and the other European one? Even though, European is a
bit vague term? I don't know any more who is European and who's not?
However, An Amhara-centric would be very clear because Amhara are people
and an ethnic group?
> Another indication of Euro-centric thinking is a statement like "a State
> called Ethiopia was created by the Colonialists". The assumption behind
> this statement would be that Africans are incapable of creating and
> forming their own states, because all ideas about the formation and
> growth of states could have only come from Europeans, who are the only
> ones capable of thinking about such things.
You know the state called Ethiopia was created by colonialists. This is
factual statement. You know and the European colonizers know it damb well
about it. They also told you that you are different the rest Africans
because you are not colonized? Why BRITISHSOMALILAND is part of
todays' Ethiopia? This makes Ethiopia as constructed colony!!!
> are welcome to help me. But I categorically reject the definition you
> used, because it was developed to fit European realities, and does not
> fit Northeast African realities. If you use this definition developed
> for European realities, then you have Eurocentric thinking.
Who said it was developed to fit European realities. This is
contradictions and delimmas? Denial? You cannot live in denial in the rest
of your existence? Make peace with the rest of the African people?
> I think I will be civil here and apologize for calling you Euro-centric.
> What I can say however, is that your thinking about the ethnic groups is
> Euro-Centric. Please do not consider this "name-calling" or an
> accusation, it is simply a description of the way you analyze the issue.
> have a good day!
> abugeda
Apology accepted. However, I am an easy guy that you could kick around. I
been have tested in many front. You can write and describe me anything you
want. However, I am the one who has the last word because I know my goal
and objective. That that has been clear before I was born and it is clear
after I was born. I analysis things as they are not the way you want me to
analysis. get that point. European achievement in the human race is clear;
we cannot deny their achievements. However, No one could also deny the
achievement of the African people whether it be Faroos, Somali, Abysian,
Haussa or any other AFrican Ethnic group. You see, everyone is an ethnic
group. perhaps, I should explain to you or recommend to recognize the
diversity of people whether be Amhara, Oromo, Somali or others.
Nabad
Faisal Hassan.
mako...@netcom.com
promod project (ams...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: Dear Makobili,
: It was not my intention to bring anything personal to discussion here.
I would have believed you if I had not debated with you in the past
and had not dealt with Abyssinians(Amhara Tigre) for a good part of my
life and known in great depth how you and your folks deal with people who
oppose their views. In any case please feel free to talk anything you
think you know about me and amuse yourself as much as you like.
: You came out and
: denied that association and went further to prepare the ground to
: retrofit your past to your present standing as a "champion of Oromo
: freedom". That is fine with me.
There is nothing I denied. I stated the tuth and told you that
you can get more concrete information if you contact your cousins
in Addis Ababa, those who are in charge of the TPLF's secutiy apparatus,
and ask them to send you what Mengistu Haile Mariam imprisoned me for
those many years you said I was his "guest". I am sure you either have
already done what I told you or you will do in the very near future.
Please share with readers of this newsgroup whatever message the TPLF
people send you.
Champion of freedom for the Oromo and other opperessed peoples, I always
was and I will forevever be. That is why I am frequently the subject of
discussion in the Amhara mailing lists (EEDN and Ethiolist) you
yourself administer. I consider it my greatest owner to be a champion
of Oromo freedom.
: Let me tell you one thing: I will be happiest to see the Oromo people
: free; free from opression, hunger and epidemics, free to seek their
: progress in economics, culture, science and technology; free to run
: their lives and have a direct representation in every level of the
: state.
Then I urge you to go one step futher and accept that the Oromo have an
inalienable right to freely determine their overall destiny. If you do
this you your self can join the Oromo struggle for liberation regardless
of your ethnicity and your past political beliefs. Should you be bold
enough and take the necessary step I mentioned and join us, I will assure
you will enjoy the experience.
: When the Oromo are free part of me, a good chunk of me, is
: free.
Actually, the phrase that your "good chunk is Oromo" does not mean much
to me because I have heard it used by the staunchest enemies of the Oromo
people. What I care the most is the action I see from such people.
: My position is this freedom can only be achieved if we struggle
: together to bring a systemic change and put in place an equitable
: system of state in place in the whole of what is today's Ethiopia.
Your statement here sounds okay but there is a question that has to be
answered: On what basis can we struggle together?
The Oromo people definitely will struggle with those people who say
"the Oromo people are outsiders" to their homeland, Oromia; they will
struggle against them.
The Oromo people will struggle with those who deny that Oromia was
colonized by Menelik of Abyssinia at the end of the ninteenth century;
they will stuggle against them.
The Oromo people will not struggle with the people who deny that they
have the right to self-determination; they will struggle against them.
The Oromo people will not struggle with those who have been looting their
resources for the last hundred years and who are doing same now: they
will struggle against them.
On the other hand, with all those who unconditionally respect their right
to self-determination, the Oromo people are struggling hand in hand
towards mutually agreed upon goals.
So in a nutshell, the precondition to struggling together are the following:
(1) acceptance of the sovereign rights of each and every nation
in towards Ethiopia. Those rights must include the right to
independence
(2) acceptance of the fact that the Ethiopia that was built a
by brute force a hundred years ago and survived till now by
the force of the gun we know now cannot last for much longer.
(2) to envision future "Ethiopia" as an entity that could be
established through the voluntary union of sovereign nations.
Any effort to "save ethiopia" that is not based on the above fundamental
principles is bound to fail.
: A separate state may fly flag and create cabinet positions for the elite
: to occupy but will it change the lot of Gadissa or DebalKE, or Hagos
: or Faisal?? That is my question.
Yow will not be able to get the exact anser in advance. But you must
understand that people will not desist from seeking freedom freedom
and liberty thinking that an independent state may not change their lot.
: So my brother with that note I will say a few things about the state
: of Ethiopia. I believe the modern state of Ethiopia is a continuation
: of the many states that existed in the area for thousands of years.
: (The name Ethiopia was used in the 4th century in the title of the
: Axumite King Ezana in the Greek version of his inscription.)
It is interesting that you mention it was in the Greek version of the
inscritption. But you must now the ancient Greeks meant all
civilizations south of Egypt and not a particlular country or state. All
people in Subsharan Africa have equal claim to what was meant by
"Ethiopia" in Greek. What you mentioned above is in fact one of the
proofs that the Abyssinians simply stole the name and used it.
: From the earliest days the Ethiopian state has been a multi-ethnic
: state with many autonomous states forming a feudal version of a
: fereration, that is the significance of the title neguse-negest, i.e
: King of Kings.
Not so. What you say above refers only to Abyssinia (Gonder, Menz,
Gojjam and Tigray). There were numerous petty warlords at any given
time. Every once in a while one became stronger than the others, called
himself king of kings, and demanded tribute from the warlords nearest
him. It is ridiculous that you call this a "federation".
: It is indeed fitting the only King of Kings who reigned
: on Ethiopia without any other Kings, the one who created a total
: absolutist state, called himself Emperor Haileselassie.
You see, HaileSellassie was the first king after Menelik. Menelik
started out just like other strong warlords who preceded him. His time
coincided with with the period known as the Scrumble for Africa. With
European aid (armament as well as personnel) he became strong enought to
conquer the Oromo people, and other people south of Abyssinia, for the first
time in Abyssinian history. HaileSellasie inherited an empire which was
already built and called himself Emperor. This in itself is one evidence
that Etiopia is a late ninteenth/twentieth century phenomenon.
: The medival Ethiopian kingdom has roughly today's Ethiopia's borders
: (see the 16 th century map of Alvarez) but then unlike today borders
: are not fixed things.
False. There was no kingdom called Ethiopia in all 16th century maps.
What existed, without clear borders, was Abyssinia and the size was
perhaps only 1/3 as big as today's Ethiopia.
: The modern state in Ethiopia was a result of a very complicated internal
: dynamics.
Wrong. Modern Ethiopia could not have been built without external, i.e.,
European, influence. Modern Ethiopia could be built only after the Oromo
people were defeated. Menelik and his Abyssinian army could not have
defeated the Oromo people had it not been for the military support he got
from the Europeans. These facts are all well documented. Had things
been left to their own internal dinamics a large part of what we now call
Ethiopia would have been Oromia instead.
: the reunification of the Northern and Central Highlands are
: local processes that facilitated the event.
Nonesense. There were no devided central and northern highlands that
needed to be reunited.
: Kassa,
: who later became King Tewodros II was the first of the Kings who rose
: on the Ethiopian scene in the 19th century and pushed the state to
: a higher strength that led to the modern state of Ethiopia.
Not so. Tewodros's power never extended beyond parts of Gonder and
Gojjam and these regions are not one calls modern state of Ethiopia.
Makobili
mako...@netcom.com
R2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU wrote:
:
: I am glad Makobili is using this forum effectively too. Eventhough he did not
: vote for creation of the groups, he did not vote against them as the
: "pan-Ethiopianists".
You can count on me that I will be here whenever people try to use this forum
to spread venomous propaganda against the Oromo people and their just
struggle for liberty. You can also count on me that I will be here and
air my views whenever people spread lies and distortions about that
geo-political entity called Ethiopia. Whenever the lies and the venomous
propaganda stop, I assure you will hear little from me.
:
: For the record though,I do not believe fora moment that Ethiopia was a colonial
: construct.
You are entitled to your views but if you try to dispute the fact in
public I and others will be here to defend the fact that Ethiopia is a
colonial construct. If You decide to debate that Ethniopia is not a
colonial construct you must prove that the following are not true:
(1) The Ethiopian empire-state was established during the
last quarter of the 19th century after Menelik's army,
equipped with European armament and advisors, defeated the
Oromo people and other peoples south of Abyssinia.
(2) The Oromo people would not have been defeated had it
not been for the military support Europeans gave to Menelik.
(3) The European plan was to abvoid direct war with peoples of the
region themsleves (because these could lead to clashes among the
Europeans themselves) and exercise dependent colonialism though
Menelik.
: I do not believe that the urge to form independent states, by some
: groups in Ethiopia is in the interest of the people, on either side.
The best way to find out is to establish the necessary condition in which
popular referanda can be carried out. That is all those advocating the
internationally acknowledged right to self-determination are asking for.
: Ethiopians can benefit from unity based on equality and mutual respect.
That unity can only be voluntary. And voluntary union can only be
established through popular refenda.
Makobili
faisal hassan
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, abugeda wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This thread is really so symptomatic of the sad realities of the
> political conditions in Ethiopia.
> Many individuals in the western world have developed "THEORIES" (please
> note the emphasis), to explain the "REAL" world as we see it. This is
> response to the rise and success of what is called "The Scientific
> Method". Fundamentally, the scientific method requires that to
> understand the world, one sets a hypothesis, and then one would test the
> observations from the real world against the established hypothesis. If
> the THEORY fits the FACTS, then fine - the theory is an accepted way of
> explaining the world. Otherwise, the REALITY is and must be superior,
> and a new hypothesis developed.
Mudane Abugeda:
You are confused. What is your definition of ETHNICITY, ETHNIC, and
ETHIOCITY? Don't jump into Scientific theories? BE SPECIFIC and
ELOBORATE? THANKS IN ADVANCE.
> The above description of what constitutes a nation is a THEORY - one
> Josef Stalin the murderer developed. It is in fact so nebulous, that it
> is a useless definition to use if one is to try and use it to develop
> further undertanding of society. What is "common socio-cultural makeup"?
My understanding in undergrad level, 'Common Socio-cultural makeup?' is
a group of people who share a COMMON culture, langauge, history, and who
are to reclaim their identity which was once lost due to COLONIZATION.
You are CONFUSED, I say 'CONFUSED' beacuse you are mixing 'BUN' and
'CANNO' (that's, Coffee and Milk. Josef Stalin, was a RUSSIAN leader who
ruled RUSSIAN with GUN. Perhps, you meant Carl Marx, the Academia who
have written theories that were against CAPITALIST ELITES in his era.
> What of groups that fit one description and not the other, e.g. like the
> Agaw speakers in Ethiopia, which do not live in a contiguous geographic
> location? Or how about the Gurage,
According to this definition which is the correct one and accepted
definition of ETHNIC groups around the world (That's the above
definition), anyone who has common langauge, culture, history, and are on
the verge to reclaiming their idenity could qualified. I for one, always
thought that GURAGAS, the comic people are one of the AMHARA tribes. If
they are not one of the AMHARA tribes, then, perhaps, they might be an
ETHNIC GROUP like everyone else.
The rest of your article were full of repetition and I for one don't
like to repaet myself. So, I will just leave it here.
Nabad
Faisal Hassan.
Zewdie Bachore
In article <makobiliE...@netcom.com>, mako...@netcom.com says...
>Ms. Bachore:
>Makobili
Temper, temper!
You & your likes have been singing to the same tune for a long time!
You just hide behind your safe "exile" and roam cyberspace.
BTW, have your ran out of the messages from your home page
and now appearing here in full force or your messenger
has other things to do?
Other than that, like it has been said before, if Ethiopian various ethnic
groups wanted to form their own nationhood, they could have done
it by now; but most do not want to, I believe. The trouble is Ethiopian
peoples as a whole have never been given a chance to decide for
ourselves. People like you would like to think for us! You and the
likes just become agents of discomfort and misery while personally
staying in a safe corner!
Zewudie
faisal hassan
On 12 Nov 1996, Zewdie Bachore wrote:
> You just hide behind your safe "exile" and roam cyberspace.
> BTW, have your ran out of the messages from your home page
> and now appearing here in full force or your messenger
> has other things to do?
Zewudie:
No one here is hiding anything. You, Ms. Zewudie and your kinds are
living full of lies. Africans across the continent of Africa are
no longer denying the diversity and differences that exists among the
African communities. You and are your kind employ tactics of denial and
miseducation of the citizens of the world that in this socially
constructed state named Ethiopia consists only one ethnic group called
Amharas! I say NONSENSE.
Nabad
Cune.
R2...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
The Following article was posted on the unmoderated group. I thought you
readers of the moderated group would like to read it too. Ethiopian politics
has multiple views.
Belete
=========================================================
In article <3283E1...@cris.com>
R2...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
In article <1783DE871...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
R2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
>I have seen many Ethiopians mention their "mixed-ethnic" lineage in
>public, with an almost apologetic tone of "what of me..." It is nobody's
>business what "ethnicity" one is, and no Ethiopian should be compelled
>to feel embarrased about having the proud lineage of parents who were
>human enough and courageous enough to transcend whatever differeneces
>they had - large or small - to love each other and bring the gift of
>children to this world. It is a betrayal of their precious legacy to
>have to feel that one does not quite belong.
a big way. But life goes on regardless. The article is well argued, stylish and
sober. The paragraph above is one of many that caught my attention. I would be
very interested in the continuation of this discussion and arguments that
admission of mixed ethnic lineage in public is in fact "a betrayal of their
precious legacy" or an act of courage to regain ones identity and redefine
new relationships on the ground of mutual respect collective worth as a people.
I suggest that such discussions take place in both groups.
Regards,
Belete
Belete Muturo
In article <makobiliE...@netcom.com>
mako...@netcom.com writes:
>
>You can count on me that I will be here whenever people try to use this forum
>to spread venomous propaganda against the Oromo people and their just
>struggle for liberty.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What about others ? BTW,let's assume that you (size/number-crazy) guys
Oromos-Amharas-Tigres-Somalis succedded in forming your own seperate States.
Do you think there would be any land left for the remaining 70 plus groups
in Ethiopia or they just fill your pocket as some often call them
"pocket nationalities" ?
> If You decide to debate that Ethniopia is not a
>colonial construct you must prove that the following are not true:
100th time: You guys, out there on the extreme edge of OLF movement are
responsible for paralyzing the unlimited potential by the oppressed
nationalities to influence the course of events in the Ethiopian affairs,
simply by advocating the extreme on the left end. When the Triangular Pact
among the three gun- holders was signed in London in May, 1991, You jumped
onto the Wagon leaving your natural allies behind. That superficial alliance
did not last long and you were ejected. In 1994, when a peace talk was held
in Carter Center in Atlanta, you chose to distant yourself from the rest of
the Opposition by saying that your only problem with EPRDF was its failure
to implement the Charter of the Transitional Period. Yes, Menelik's expansion
has colonial cruelty in the nature of its implementation. But that does not
mean that people of Ethiopia cannot live together in peace and Harmony
if they can create a fairly representative government and democratic
Institutions.
One more point: in 1990, Professor Asmarom Legesse, an Erritrean, in his
speech, here in Cleveland, Ohio said that stability of Erritrea, after its
independence would not be threatened by Ethiopia because, Ethiopia's ethnic
will continue fighting with each other, which will constantly weakens the
country's defence capacity. I am not suggesting that Ethiopia must wage war
on Erritrea. What irrites me the most is your insistence on the assumption
that "Ethiopia is a colonial construct". Just to borrow Clinton's phrase,
I am for building a bridge that connects the present into the futeure. You
may go ahead and build yours to connect the past into whatever you want.
On another note, though, you can count on me whenever it comes to
defending you from any personal attacks from your opponents. Like in
the case where they try to question as when you started to advocate
your current position on Oromo question. It's purely your business and
not theirs.
>: I do not believe that the urge to form independent states, by some
>: groups in Ethiopia is in the interest of the people, on either side.
>
>The best way to find out is to establish the necessary condition in which
>popular referanda can be carried out. That is all those advocating the
>internationally acknowledged right to self-determination are asking for.
survival of smaller ethnic groups encircled by Oromo population which
has already started to tell them to pack and leave ? You know what ?
Those who vigillantly advocate Independence as an alternative to a
creation of democratic system are unlikely to lead their people
to democracy and freedom. They tend to be power conscious and
visionless. That scares me the most.
>
>: Ethiopians can benefit from unity based on equality and mutual respect.
>That unity can only be voluntary. And voluntary union can only be
>established through popular refenda.
process needs to be clear as to what this package of independence is up to
bring to them and it affects others. From your writings, it's hard to expect
that you and others on your side are ready for such a democratic exchange of
ideas and alternatives.
>
>Makobili
>
R2...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
In article <Pine.NEB.3.95.961112...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca>
faisal hassan <fha...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> writes:
> No one here is hiding anything. You, Ms. Zewudie and your kinds are
> living full of lies. Africans across the continent of Africa are
> no longer denying the diversity and differences that exists among the
> African communities. You and are your kind employ tactics of denial and
> miseducation of the citizens of the world that in this socially
> constructed state named Ethiopia consists only one ethnic group called
> Amharas! I say NONSENSE.
the failure of the proponents to address their own concerns appropriately.
If they have been the subject of this monstrous colonizer (Ethiopia) for
years, I do not understand what is holding them from declaring independence
at the time when the " Colonial power" is at its weakest historical moment
with no regular army to defend it. I wonder why they would have to labor
so hard to convince the world that the name *Ethiopia* was simply" a colonial
construct" that did not exist historically.By doing so,they are denying their
own people a due credit they are entitled as a people, namly
the lion's share of their collective
historical achievement registered by the Ethiopian people.What they are telling
the world is this: " All the historical achievements made by so- called
Ethiopia is simply the fruits of the works of Amharas in Gojjam, Begamider,
Wello, and part of Shawa. Our people were not part of it. One more thing:
Ethiopia is a colonial construct." Tell your people that and listen to
their responses. BTW, the allegation that Ethiopia conspired against all the
other Ethnic groups in collaboration with European Colonialists will surely
and clearly backfire on them.
This is nonsense. I argue that all Ethiopian people are part of Ethiopian
history and I wish more was written about their collective achievement.
It makes sense to state and restate your rationale for Independence rather
than trying to prove that Ethiopia did not exist as a territorially defined
geographical region known to the world as a country called Ethiopia.
Most of us are here to discuss ways & means of creating conduicive environment
for peaceful coexistence and democratic process. If you do not see either the
need for unity on the basis of equality or rebuilding Ethiopia as a state
that respects the rights of all groups, we no vision we share.
Regards,
Belete
> Nabad
> Cune.
>
Negeri
I promised my self to pull my self out of this unproductive argument and
counter-argument. But here I am again stealing precious time from my host
and my self.
abugeda wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> This thread is really so symptomatic of the sad realities of the
> political conditions in Ethiopia.
>
>
What is sad and symptomatic for me is the succession of oppressors of
Semites at the expense of the Kushitic and the Omotic people of Ethiopia.
To the contrary of your assertion, the present realities, as far as the
struggle of the oppressed ones is concerned, is only the starting of what
is to come: the empowering of the majority but yet the disadvantaged.
What makes this thread totally hopeless case is that:
One group portrays past Ethiopia the country of honey and milk; the
country of ethnic harmony, the blessed land on earth; which quite a few
"ethnocentrists", "eurocentrists", and others for which peculiar terms
have been coiled to explain them are conspiring against her and try to
change the blessed status quo.
For the others, Ethiopia has been a country where one rules and
represses, loots the other. A country where black-black oppression along
ethnic lines could not be masked by the few products of inter marriages
and good things to be talked of. This group explains the current
political land scape as continuation of the subjugation of the right of
the majority, and the intensification of struggle by the oppreseed ones.
Compromise: not in sight as both have not only separate agendas but
uncompromisingly antagonistic. Change vis-a-vis status quo. May I
elaborate on the term status quo in context? For the former the status
quo has changed dramatically because political power has changed hands,
in fact not in favor of them. But for the later, it is business as usual:
change of hand of power does not amount to any substanitive change.
This is the reality of the actors on this and other threads, whether they
try to explain them selves in every way. I am very much impressed by the
latest analysis in terms of "Eurocentricty, Identity and the scientific
Method" of course as an academic excersice.
Do we also recall that "Multi-party democracy, Free market policy.." are
European? How many of us are not in favor of them, irrespective of their
adaptability to local objective realities? But I am sorry to politely say
that the Hitler and Cambodian cases are simply nonsense.
The other interesting thing: Can Social, historical, political phenomena
be explained in terms of the Scientific Method. Live alone the nonsense
senarios on this thread, social science as a subject matter can not be
explained in terms of the Scientific Method. Why? Because of the
circumstantiality and subjectivity of the subject or the events or the
phenomena they try to explain. Above all, the unreproducability and
unreplicability of their hypothesis and theories.
Other wise I acknowledge the beuty of the language. To be fair enough,
let me try to address the specific questions posed. Not the
Eurocenticity, bla blas..
>
> I have seen many Ethiopians mention their "mixed-ethnic" lineage in
> public, with an almost apologetic tone of "what of me..." It is nobody's
> business what "ethnicity" one is, and no Ethiopian should be compelled
> to feel embarrased about having the proud lineage of parents who were
> human enough and courageous enough to transcend whatever differeneces
> they had - large or small - to love each other and bring the gift of
> children to this world. It is a betrayal of their precious legacy to
> have to feel that one does not quite belong.
>
>
Do not sound a Morality teacher. There are always borderlines and buffer
groups even among the Serbs and Muslims. Do you explain the relation
between them interms of intermarriage..? I am only using analogies and
please just treat it as such, ok? You explain people first by what they
are, not how they relate with the others. That only comes later as
secondary: both positevely and negatively based on their records.
>
> I challenge anyone to point out any "stark difference" between the Oromo
> speaking peasants of Ethiopia, and any Ethiopian peasant whose mother
> tongue is not Oromo! Please define what an Oromo is, and what an Amhara
> is or what a Somali is?
>
Please take your time before you pose such question. There are Oromos,
Amharas, Somalis, etc live in Ethiopia. What does this tell you? There
are people with different languages, customs, religious practices,
spatial habitations, and other traditions. It means so to me irrespective
of the common things between them. There is no need to be emotional. Hope
you would mot be surprised if you see a book entitled the Gadda system of
the Oromos or the farming system of the Afars....
It is b/s people have such differences that social anthropology and
hisory are enjoying the bebefit of standing as a discipline.
According to your good-wish logic all peasants of the world, at least of
Africa, would be the same. Brother, they are as different as much as they
are the same.
> On the other hand, maybe
> Makobili, Negeri and Faisal should stop being Eurocentric, and stop
> looking at the world through a perspective that was developed to
> describe European reality.
>
>
It does not mind if you call me in any phrase you coil. I am trying to
explain things as I happen to understand them. I am not a social
scientist nor have I been in this continent for more than a year. If I
ever bow out of this endless argument, it won't be b/s some body across
a continent has called me this and that, but only b/s it is just a
useless endeavor.
I wish I would know whose opinion prevails. Time will tell.
Wishing every body the best.
Negeri
> abugeda
abugeda
Selam, Negeri
All of us do indeed have more "important" things to do than spend
precious time on this too. So...
Negeri wrote:
> abugeda wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This thread is really so symptomatic of the sad realities of the
> > political conditions in Ethiopia.
> What is sad and symptomatic for me is the succession of oppressors of
> Semites at the expense of the Kushitic and the Omotic people of Ethiopia.
You cannot help but give away the rigidity of your views on Ethiopian
society. You see, you bandy around statements like "Semites", "Kushitic"
or "Omotic". Just what is your definition of "Semite"? Or a "Kushitic"?
Or "Omotic"? The only honest answer you could give me, at least in the
Ethiopian context, is that these terms refer to LANGUAGES. Period. Your
statement implies that you are extending this term to mean PEOPLE. You
are using a LINGUISTIC THEORY for SOCIAL-ANTHROPOLOGY, two different
disciplines. Your statement is first of all technically incorrect, it
would be more honest for you to state "Semitic Language speakers". But
more than that, it tells me that you consider LANGUAGE to be THE
determinator of a Social/Cultural (even ethnic?) grouping.
This is obviously not correct either, as the history of the world is
replete with facts otherwise. I am sure that your presence in Vienna
will tell you that the Austrians do not consider themselves Germans (few
Austrian want to talk about the one Austrian who did - a fellow by the
name of A. Hitler), nor will the German speaking Swiss. Also, just a
stone's throw away is Bosnia, where the Serbs, Moslems and Croats spoke
the same language, but never considered that to stand against them when
they wanted to aim the gun at each other. I could go on and on. So you
see, when you do use terms like "Semitic" and "Cushitic" in the
vocabulary of political discourse, then you are using the veneer of
intellectual sophistication to get respectability for position that are
very very far removed from who speaks what language and where.
But the damage does not end here. You see, the "mainstream" LINGUISTIC
Theory of how and where the Semitic languages originated from points to
roughly (middle east/mesopotamia) as the source. It came to Ethiopia, we
are told, through those alien Sabeans, who supposedly conquered the
region from across the mighty Ocean now called the Red Sea, after
suddenly finding out that there is land only a few days' sail away.
Therefore, politicians who use terms like "Semites" attached their
version of HISTORY to this interpretation. So here we have a LINGUISTIC
theory being used un-critically in SOCIAL-ANTHROLOGY, and then into
HISTORY which will be used to further beautify a political ideology. So,
the plot thickens as more and more "intellectual" sounding reasons are
generated for political ends. Today, they are stated as absolute fact by
sober, educated and mature people like yourself.
But you know what, supppose
1) the theory that classifies languages as Semitic, etc... is suddenly
found to be unacceptable, or
2) the theory that says the Semitic languages CAME to Ethiopia is turned
upside down? (by the way, there is much LINGUISTIC evidence today to
support the view that Semitic languages originate from what is today
Ethiopia)
Disaster! No more ethnic groups (how can we know them - the theory
doesn't say they exist!) No more Semitic/Cushitic fault line, and hence
bye bye to "liberationist" ideology. Oppression can no more be seen in
terms of the Semitic immigrant against the Kushitic native. Then, maybe
we can see ourselves more honestly, unencumbered by Western thought. So,
my answer to you is, please do not speak of Semitic oppression against
the Cushitic because those are meaningless terms, only valuable to make
propaganda look respectable.
> To the contrary of your assertion, the present realities, as far as the
> struggle of the oppressed ones is concerned, is only the starting of what
> is to come: the empowering of the majority but yet the disadvantaged.
I too want to see the majority empowered, and the disadvantaged put
right, but the question is how to define oppression. Because there is
someone who speaks my langauge in power does not mean I am free or
unoppressed. Today's Tigrai is a good example; the mantra "ethnic
liberation" today only means that there is a Tigrean in power that
dictates what you do, what you say, where you go. But you cannot
complain, because after all, the theory says that if there is someone of
your "ethnic" group in power, there is, no, there CANNOT be oppression.
He after all gave you "freedom" and "democracy", so he must know a thing
or two about those things. He won't let his actions and decisions be
questioned, because everybody knows (or so the theory will say) that
only those that want the return of the oppressor group complain;
everyone else knows he only has the welfare of his people at heart. So
yes, I want freedom from oppression too, real freedom from the arbitrary
and omnipotent power of those in power to take away my rights.
> What makes this thread totally hopeless case is that:
>
> One group portrays past Ethiopia the country of honey and milk; the
> country of ethnic harmony, the blessed land on earth; which quite a few
> "ethnocentrists", "eurocentrists", and others for which peculiar terms
> have been coiled to explain them are conspiring against her and try to
> change the blessed status quo.
>
There is no lover of the status-quo today. Everyone yearns for a change.
But, I tell you that the direction which you guys propose has enough
historical record against it that it makes me shudder.
> For the others, Ethiopia has been a country where one rules and
> represses, loots the other. A country where black-black oppression along
> ethnic lines could not be masked by the few products of inter marriages
> and good things to be talked of. This group explains the current
> political land scape as continuation of the subjugation of the right of
> the majority, and the intensification of struggle by the oppreseed ones.
But you see, the struggle of the majority for its rights is being
hi-jacked (once again) by a minority who think no cost is too high to
finally prove their point and secure power. They know, of course, that
once they are in power, they can use the old boogyman of "Semitic"
oppression to scare their followers into doing whatever they want. I
say, what the majority want first and foremost is individual freedom,
meaningful individual freedom. They do NOT want to replace one dictator
who does not speak their dialect by another who does.
>
> Compromise: not in sight as both have not only separate agendas but
> uncompromisingly antagonistic.
And it is a pity that you think so. I for one think that there is an
immense room for compromise. Why is it that everything can only get a
solution only in the context of political borders? Haven't we gotten
enough evidence that political borders only multiply the problem? Look
at Eritrea - thirty years of fighting for their "right for
self-determination", and today the flower of Eritrea's youth is flooding
the streets of Addis Ababa, running away from being press-ganged into a
new dictator's army (Oh! I forgot, it is OK now because the new ruler
speaks Tigrigna, and hence can do no harm)
So now we have two dictators, Meles and Issayas, where we just had one
before. If indeed it is the welfare of "your" people (they are my people
too) you want, maybe you need to re-assess what that means. And I
guarantee you that you will be amazed at the level of compromise you
will see.
Change vis-a-vis status quo. May I
> elaborate on the term status quo in context? For the former the status
> quo has changed dramatically because political power has changed hands,
> in fact not in favor of them. But for the later, it is business as usual:
> change of hand of power does not amount to any substanitive change.
>
> This is the reality of the actors on this and other threads, whether they
> try to explain them selves in every way. I am very much impressed by the
> latest analysis in terms of "Eurocentricty, Identity and the scientific
> Method" of course as an academic excersice.
Maybe, if you dared to get a different perspective, then you could see
the other's point of view. I do think that is where compromise will
start. It is like looking through the different ends of a telescope. A
rewarding view in one, a frustrating one in another. Please, do NOT
assume you know it all, or have heard it all. Maybe you haven't. Also,
thank you for your compliment - but I hope you will enjoy it as more
than a simple "academic" exercise.
> Do we also recall that "Multi-party democracy, Free market policy.." are
> European? How many of us are not in favor of them, irrespective of their
> adaptability to local objective realities? But I am sorry to politely say
> that the Hitler and Cambodian cases are simply nonsense.
And you prove my point. It is stupid to ignore them just because they
are of European origin. Or to accept them whole heartedly just because
they are. Either case is Dogma. Acceptance or rejection must be based
on a critical examination of how the facts are explained by the theory.
My points about Hitler or Cambodia are very valid demonstrations of what
can happen when dogma takes over, and pure theory gains the ascendancy.
I do not know whether you were in Ethiopia during the absurd years of
communism, but we had cases of people being arrested for raising their
right fist instead of their left, peasant associations of 100 member or
so promising to destroy American Imperialism, youth in love being thrown
in jail for walking hand-in-hand (it was deemed to be Bourgeoise
behaviour and is a true case that happened in Tigrai). I remember
Ethiopian Television showed a documentary on a wedding at a
"progressive" peasant association, where the wedding was presided over
by the local party secretary, and bride and groom shook hands over their
signed contract by calling each other "guad (comrade)"! And these are
only the ridiculous examples. The tragic ones are all those who perished
in the Red Terror over such dogmatic arcana like whether the Soviet
Union was a Social Imperialist, or whether one should pronounce "..
shall win!" in Amharic as "Yachenefal!"(the EPRP variety), or
"Yashenefal!"(the MEISON/Dergue variant).
Adolf Hitler convinced many Germans that Germany's greatness was being
denied because of the Jews - who were subhuman and did not fit the Aryan
race theory. His solution was to get rid of them somehow. The man who
eventually put together the whole plan of concentration camp
extermination, Adolf Eichmann, did not even hate the Jews. For him, they
were a theoretical problem that the National Socialists (Nazis) had to
resolve. And as a loyal Nazi, and the Jewish expert for his party,
Eichmann simply took care of the problem. So was born a solution for a
problem that got created in the theoretical construct of Hitler.
In Cambodia, when the Khmer Rouge took over in the late seventies, they
had a plan. Their theory said that it is impossible to change society,
so it is better to destroy it and start from scratch - "Year Zero" they
called it. As soon as they got power, they forced everyone, I mean every
single one, out of the cities, and into vast camps out in the middle of
nowhere. I am talking millions of people. Families were literally torn
apart because they were deemed to be the basis for society. Any and all
those symbols of authority in the old society were eliminated - the
educated, Buddhist monks, government functionaries were systematically
killed. Respected village elders were told to take orders from children
aged 8 or above as a deliberate subversion of the old authority system.
The children were ALL taken to be "raised" by the Khmer Rouge. Nobody
even knows today how many died, it is for sure in the millions. And it
was all to satisfy the dictates of a THEORY.
> The other interesting thing: Can Social, historical, political phenomena
> be explained in terms of the Scientific Method. Live alone the nonsense
> senarios on this thread, social science as a subject matter can not be
> explained in terms of the Scientific Method. Why? Because of the
> circumstantiality and subjectivity of the subject or the events or the
> phenomena they try to explain. Above all, the unreproducability and
> unreplicability of their hypothesis and theories.
You have my vote here (Oh! could it be that we just agreed on
something?) But the problem though, is that "social science" as the name
implies, poses as a science. And to the un-initiated, the fruits of
social science do appear to be rational, logical and (dare we say it?)
even scientific. My point is that the "ethnic liberation" ideology,
which has usurped the term "self determination", and much like a cheap
prostitute wears the terminology of "democracy" and "freedom", never
questions the validity of its assumptions, but instead justifies it's
stands as being "scientific". The "circumstantial and subjective" (to
use your terms) is being used to justify violence.
> > I have seen many Ethiopians mention their "mixed-ethnic" lineage in
> > public, with an almost apologetic tone of "what of me..." It is nobody's
> > business what "ethnicity" one is, and no Ethiopian should be compelled
> > to feel embarrased about having the proud lineage of parents who were
> > human enough and courageous enough to transcend whatever differeneces
> > they had - large or small - to love each other and bring the gift of
> > children to this world. It is a betrayal of their precious legacy to
> > have to feel that one does not quite belong.
>
> Do not sound a Morality teacher. There are always borderlines and buffer
> groups even among the Serbs and Muslims. Do you explain the relation
> between them interms of intermarriage..? I am only using analogies and
> please just treat it as such, ok? You explain people first by what they
> are, not how they relate with the others. That only comes later as
> secondary: both positevely and negatively based on their records.
Do you seriously think that the Oromo of today, who live in such a vast
expanse of Ethiopia, are direct, pure descendants of their forebears who
exploded out of what is now El Kere four centuries ago? Do you think
they just came and settled into vast empty virgin land? NO! There were
many many people and cultures that had lived in all those areas, and
they got absorbed during the Oromo expansion. If they were not absorbed,
then they got eliminated - which I don't think happened anyway.
Intermarriage between different "ethnic" groups is quintessentially
Ethiopian, and the norm rather than the exception. The spread of the
Oromo language is just an indication of just much impact the Oromo
presence had in different areas of the country, and so the need for a
lingua franca. Much like Amharic today, Oromiffa is not the language of
the Oromo anymore, but a legitimate Ethiopian lingua franca.
> >
> > I challenge anyone to point out any "stark difference" between the Oromo
> > speaking peasants of Ethiopia, and any Ethiopian peasant whose mother
> > tongue is not Oromo! Please define what an Oromo is, and what an Amhara
> > is or what a Somali is?
>
> Please take your time before you pose such question. There are Oromos,
> Amharas, Somalis, etc live in Ethiopia. What does this tell you? There
> are people with different languages, customs, religious practices,
> spatial habitations, and other traditions. It means so to me irrespective
> of the common things between them. There is no need to be emotional. Hope
> you would mot be surprised if you see a book entitled the Gadda system of
> the Oromos or the farming system of the Afars....
Again, I thank you for pointing out the kernel of my argument. You see,
you just here admitted that a social group is described along many
"dimensions". When you say Amhara, and then in the next breath tell us
that there are many factors that describe an Amhara, a logical question
to ask is "Have you examined all these factors to honestly say that
these are exclusively Amhara, Oromo, etc...?" I bet your answer is NO.
But you proceed, nevertheless, and lump everyone together as if only the
LANGUAGE is THE criteria, and everything else irrelevant. Based on a
proper evaluation of ALL these factors, would you say Oromo speakers
from Selalae are Oromo? I know you will say "Yes", only because the
language they use is Oromo. Again, my question to you is, please define
what an Oromo is, or what an Amhara is? Don't tell me they exist because
people use the terms. What do YOU think? How would someone who is not
familiar with Ethiopia know one from the other today? If you can tell me
one thing that is exclusively Oromo or Amhara (other than the language)
I will be highly enlightened.
(note: I have read a little bit about the Gadda system, about how it
re-inforced egalitarian practices among the Oromo, and destroyed other
non-Oromo communities. It is very fascinating and worthy of extensive
discussion. But as long as it is mired in today's politics, it is
impossible to objectively study it)
>
> It is b/s people have such differences that social anthropology and
> hisory are enjoying the bebefit of standing as a discipline.
First, I do not want to be impolite; but while I know you mean to say
(because) when you use the abbreviation (b/s), in American culture that
could be taken as to mean bullshit.
But to go back, the reason why Social Anthropology is standing as a
separate discipline IS because of the complexity of social formations -
otherwise the linguists would have had all the answers if it were
according to your way of thinking.
> According to your good-wish logic all peasants of the world, at least of
> Africa, would be the same. Brother, they are as different as much as they
> are the same.
And they ARE more similar than different. Their rural world depends on
the blessing of Nature and the goodwill of a remote and arbitrary urban
government.
>
> I wish I would know whose opinion prevails. Time will tell.
Nobody has to prevail over the other. All I ask is that you look at the
world through more appropriate "glasses" or perspective!
>
> Wishing every body the best.
>
> Negeri
sincerely,
abugeda