esperanto beginner questions
guy-jin
i hope my next post will be in 100% esperanto.
i have a few questions about learning esperanto:
1) i studied spanish for 4 years in high school. since
esperanto is romance-ish, i thought it would help, but
in spanish, you say, estAs. i am having a hard time
saying it the esperanto way, Estas. any memnonic devices
to stop me from doing this?
2) is j a vowel? is the aux combination a single vowel, or two?
do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
or " unu lIngvo, du lIngvoj"?
do i say "ankAux" or "Ankaux"?
3) how do i pronounce the kn combination? i know you are supposed
to say both, but how do you say two consonants? i have been
saying "kuh-na-boh" for knabo. am i doing it right?
4) can you change nouns into verbs? or verbs into nouns?
can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
brace that holds some older people up)? can you add -i
to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
thanks in advance.
--
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GCS/O d-(x 10/31) s+:++>+:+ a-- C++>$ UL>++ UA>++ L+>++++ P--- E>++
W+>++ N++>+++ o? K? W O? M PS++ PE- PGP t+@ 5+ X->! R+@ tv b++ DI++@ D+
G e>++++ h! r- y? ??? 4+>+++ AN+>+++ !BZ fls>+++ flj->+++ UF+
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pricer...@my-deja.com
guy-jin <gu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Saluton!
> 1) i studied spanish for 4 years in high school. since
> esperanto is romance-ish, i thought it would help, but
> in spanish, you say, estAs. i am having a hard time
> saying it the esperanto way, Estas. any memnonic devices
> to stop me from doing this?
Just remember that every word with more than one syllable has the
primary stress on the next to last syllable. "Estas" is such a common
word that you'll soon get plenty of practice correcting yourself, and it
will no longer be a problem. (I can't restrain myself from suggesting
that you adopt the mantra "Mi estas bravulo" ("Mi EStas braVUlo" in your
stress-notation.
Do you also have trouble remembering that "b" and "v" aren't
allophones? Just curious.
>
> 2) is j a vowel? is the aux combination a single vowel, or two?
> do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
> or " unu lIngvo, du lIngvoj"?
> do i say "ankAux" or "Ankaux"?
"j" and "ux" are "semi-vowels" (Esperantlingve "duonvokaloj"). The
"oj", "ej", "aj", "uj", "ij" (this one only in transcriptions of Russian
names), and "aux", "eux" combinations are diphthongs, and count as
single vowels. So "unu LINGvo, du LINGvoj" (think "voj" as in American
English "toy"... NOT "toe-ee") and ANKaux (think "aux" as in "cow"). Of
course as J.C. Wells points out in the intro to his dictionary, the
sounds of one language can never be adequately described in terms of
those of another language... but the above suggestions will probably get
you pretty far in the right direction, unless your own dialect of
English is very different from US standard (If you're from OZ, for
example, or from Notting Hill, telling you to use the same sound as
"cow" is asking for BIG trouble!).
>
> 3) how do i pronounce the kn combination? i know you are supposed
> to say both, but how do you say two consonants? i have been
> saying "kuh-na-boh" for knabo. am i doing it right?
Try saying "Trick knob" a few times, and then try dropping the "Tri",
and you should be close. OR if you know a native German-speaker, ask
them to say the German word for "boy" and listen carefully...
>
> 4) can you change nouns into verbs? or verbs into nouns?
> can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
> brace that holds some older people up)? can you add -i
> to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
You can "change nouns into verbs", but not quite like that.
"To walk" is "promeni"; "a walk" is "promeno"; "a walker"="a person who
walks" = "promenanto", but "a walker" = the brace you're talking about =
would have to be something like "apogilo" (literally "a support
device")*. You can't always literally translate an English word in an
Esperanto one. In general, though, what you want is the "Unofficial
Affix" -um-. An example: "butiko" = "a shop", "butikumi" = "to shop".
So to get back to your car, "auxtomobilo" = "a motorcar",
"auxtomobilumi" (or possibly "auxtumi" for short) = "to do something
with a car", and hence in context could mean to travel somewhere in a
car, or possibly to drive it. But this is just a simple answer to your
question, without going into too many complications. Try reading
<http://www.concinnity.se/bertilow/pmeg/pmeg9/k_bazo.htm>.
George
*Maybe someone else knows whether there's a term in common use. Benson
suggests "irilo", if I read him correctly.
pricer...@my-deja.com
Sorry, I think I should have used
<http://purl.oclc.org/net/pmego?d=pmeg/pmeg9/um.htm> instead of the URL
I put in my earlier post!
George
Cetere, provu afisxi en Esperanto! Homoj lernas per umado pli bone ol
per teoriaj diskutoj... cxu ne?
Donald J. HARLOW
>4) can you change nouns into verbs? or verbs into nouns?
>can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
>brace that holds some older people up)? can you add -i
>to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
I hope this doesn't conflict too much, if any, with what George wrote.
The roots used in the noun-verb-adjective-adverb system (the one the
textbooks concentrate on) generally fall into three categories: those that
define actions, those that name things, and those that describe something
(attributes). The usual shorthand is to call these "verb", "noun" and
"adjective" roots respectively, though by themselves they aren't any of the
three. To any of these, you can attach any of the noun, verb, adjective or
adverb endings (eleven in all).
If you have a root that defines an action (a "verb" root), you can make a
verb out of it by adding -I (or -AS, -IS, -OS, -US, -U, depending on what
you are trying to say). So "promenI" = to take a walk, to stroll. But you
can also add the noun ending -O. This makes a word that _names_ the action
itself, not anything else associated with it: "promenO" = a walk, a stroll.
Similarly, you can add -A and get a word meaning "having to do with
(whatever is in the root)": "promenA" = having to do with a walk, a stroll
(I can't think of a good one-word English translation for this).
A "walker" as you describe it is a tool for something. I would probably
call this a "promenhelpilo" or something similar (tool for helping to take
a walk or stroll). Also note that "to walk" has several corresponding words
in Esperanto; the most common is probably "marsxi", which simply describes
the action of putting one foot in front of the other, over and over again
(as opposed to "promeni", which refers to a recreational activity); so
perhaps "marsxhelpilo" for "walker". Either one would, I think, be
immediately understood by someone who had seen somebody using this brace;
and either one would put at least a vaguely correct picture into the mind
of somebody who had never seen one.
(By contrast, the word "walker" in English -- lacking further context -- is
not such a brace, but a person who walks for recreation.)
By the way, attribute ("adjective") roots also tend to throw English
speakers when you trade the -A on the end for an -O or, worse, an -I. With
an -A, you obviously have an adjective; "bel'" refers to beauty, so "belA"
= beautiful. Change the ending to an -O and you get the name of the
quality: "belO" = beauty (in its most quintessential sence). Change it to
an -I or some other verb ending and you get something that is best
translated as "is (whatever)": "belAS" = (more or less) is beautiful,
though it's actually a bit more "active" or "hard-hitting" than a simple
"estas bela".
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
Branćetoj nudaj
Antaý ćiel' lazura
Lunon aĽuras.
Se vi serćas...
Novelojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/
Poemojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/
Recenzojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Recenzoj/
Dkcsac
>esperanto is romance-ish, i thought it would help, but
>in spanish, you say, estAs. i am having a hard time
>saying it the esperanto way, Estas. any memnonic devices
>to stop me from doing this?
Yes, this is a problem for some people who speak Romance languages. Our neutral
Romance language, Romanova, avoids the problem because it keeps the accent. Its
alphabet is easier because it has only 19 letters (abcdefgijlmnoprstuv).
Millions could write it easily because it has no diacritics on its letters!
http://members.aol.com/romanovasite
David Crandall
Project Romanova
Si, esto es un problema par algunas personas ce parla linguas roma'nicas.
Nustra lingua roma'nica neutral, Romanova, evita el problema porce conserva el
acsento. Suo alfabeto es mas fa'sil porce elo tiene solo 19 letras
(abcdefgijlmnoprstuv). Miliones poderi'a scriver lo fasilmente porce elo no
tiene diacri'ticos sobra suas letras.
http://members.aol.com/romanovasite
David Crandall
Projeto Romanova
Jes, chi tio estas problemo por kelkaj personoj kiuj parolas latinidajn
lingvojn. Nia neutrala latinida lingvo, Romanova, evitas la problemon char ghi
konservas la akcenton. Ghia alfabeto estas pli facila, char ghi havas nur 19
literojn (abcdefgijlmnoprstuv). Milionoj povus skribi ghin facile, char ghi ne
havas supersignojn sur ghiaj literoj!
http://members.aol.com/romanovasite
David Crandall
Projekto Romanova
Flandra Esperanto-Ligo
guy-jin wrote:
>
> 1) i studied spanish for 4 years in high school. since
> esperanto is romance-ish, i thought it would help, but
> in spanish, you say, estAs. i am having a hard time
> saying it the esperanto way, Estas. any memnonic devices
> to stop me from doing this?
I had the same problem in the beginning. It goes away after some months.
>
> 2) is j a vowel? is the aux combination a single vowel, or two?
> do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
> or " unu lIngvo, du lIngvoj"?
> do i say "ankAux" or "Ankaux"?
No, j and ux are not a vowel in Esperanto. So you say "du lIngvoj" and
"Ankaux".
>
> 3) how do i pronounce the kn combination? i know you are supposed
> to say both, but how do you say two consonants? i have been
> saying "kuh-na-boh" for knabo. am i doing it right?
Can you pronounce "like new"? So you can pronounce "la knabo" as well.
> 4) can you change nouns into verbs? or verbs into nouns?
> can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
> brace that holds some older people up)? can you add -i
> to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
>
Yes, but be careful: often those verbs are not common. E.g.:
auxto = car
auxti = to drive in a car
Auxti is perfect, but most often people say "veturi per auxto".
Manuel Pancorbo
guy-jin <gu...@my-deja.com>
> 1) i studied spanish for 4 years in high school. since
> esperanto is romance-ish, i thought it would help, but
> in spanish, you say, estAs. i am having a hard time
> saying it the esperanto way, Estas. any memnonic devices
> to stop me from doing this?
>
Well, I'm spanish native speaker (and esperantist) and I never had problem
with "Estas (eo) - Estás (es)".
The key is that you should remember the spanish stress rules:
1) if word ending with vowel, "s" or "n" have no stress symbol ('), then the
word is stressed on the *next to last* syllable. Otherwise, it is stressed
on the syllable marked with (')
2) if word ending with consonant different from, "s" or "n", have no stress
symbol ('), then the word is stressed on the *last* syllable. Otherwise, it
is stressed on the syllable marked with (')
So the word "estas" is a spanish-like word of first case (it ends in "s").
Because it has no stress symbol you should pronounce "ES-tas" accordingly
with the rule.
All compound words in esperanto end in vowel, "n" or "s"; even the plural
morphem "-j" is regarded by spanish speakers as a diphtongued "i", so it
also falls into rule 1. Because esperanto stress rule asserts "the stress is
always on the *next to last* syllable", it hazardly coincides with the
spanish first rule, if we regard esperanto words as spanish-like ones. So,
no problem!
Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this coincidence.
But there are only a few like this.
>
> 3) how do i pronounce the kn combination? i know you are supposed
> to say both, but how do you say two consonants? i have been
> saying "kuh-na-boh" for knabo. am i doing it right?
>
For spanish speakers this combination is also hard to pronounce. My
suggestion is: put the "k" in the previous word whenever you can do it. For
example: "sana knabo" -> "sana-k nabo".
I hope it helps!
Espero haber sido de ayuda.
Bonvenon al esperanto!
--
Manuel Pancorbo Castro
Patrick
dkc...@aol.comnojuhnq (Dkcsac) wrote:
> Our neutral
> Romance language, Romanova, avoids the problem because it keeps the
accent. Its
Keeps the accent where? Is it predictable for every word?
Stephan Schneider
Manuel Pancorbo schrieb:
> Well, I'm spanish native speaker (and esperantist) and I never had problem
> with "Estas (eo) - Estás (es)".
(cxu ne ekzistas en la hispana lingvo vorto kiu signifas "cxi tiu" aux
nur "tiu" en in-seksa versio kiu ja prononcigxas kiel la esperanta
"estas"?)
"estas mujeres son muy guapas."
maybe this one helps.
> Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
> pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this coincidence.
> But there are only a few like this.
this for example was one of my longest pronouncing mistakes in
esperanto.
we are all beginners, more or less recent ones. don't give up.
as a member of the same language,
samlingvane,
stephan schneider,
sts.
guy-jin
"Manuel Pancorbo" <man...@esperanto.nu> wrote:
> Well, I'm spanish native speaker (and esperantist) and I never
> had problem with "Estas (eo) - Estás (es)".
>
> The key is that you should remember the spanish stress rules:
> 1) if word ending with vowel, "s" or "n" have no stress symbol
> ('), then the word is stressed on the *next to last* syllable.
> Otherwise, it is stressed on the syllable marked with (')
> 2) if word ending with consonant different from, "s" or "n",
> have no stress symbol ('), then the word is stressed on the
> *last* syllable. Otherwise, it is stressed on the syllable
> marked with (') So the word "estas" is a spanish-like word of
> first case (it ends in "s"). Because it has no stress symbol
> you should pronounce "ES-tas" accordingly with the rule.
pues, nunca era demasiado bueno en español :-)
> All compound words in esperanto end in vowel, "n" or "s"; even
> the plural morphem "-j" is regarded by spanish speakers as a
> diphtongued "i", so it also falls into rule 1. Because esperanto
> stress rule asserts "the stress is always on the *next to last*
> syllable", it hazardly coincides with the spanish first rule,
> if we regard esperanto words as spanish-like ones. So,
> no problem!
>
> Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
> pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this
> coincidence. But there are only a few like this.
> For spanish speakers this combination is also hard to pronounce. My
> suggestion is: put the "k" in the previous word whenever you can do
> it. For example: "sana knabo" -> "sana-k nabo".
>
> I hope it helps!
> Espero haber sido de ayuda.
si', absolutamente.
> Bonvenon al esperanto!
Manuel Pancorbo
"Stephan Schneider" <schne...@vt.siemens.de>
> Manuel Pancorbo schrieb:
>
>> Well, I'm spanish native speaker (and esperantist) and I never had
problem
>> with "Estas (eo) - Estás (es)".
>
> (cxu ne ekzistas en la hispana lingvo vorto kiu signifas "cxi tiu" aux
> nur "tiu" en in-seksa versio kiu ja prononcigxas kiel la esperanta
> "estas"?)
>
> "estas mujeres son muy guapas."
Prave.
Mi elektis tian klarigon pri akcento-reguloj ĉar hispanligvanoj ne parkeras
la prononcon de apartaj vortoj sed, male, ni parkeras la prononcon de la
literoj (kiu estas sufiĉe regula) kaj la regulojn pri akcento.
Tial estas facile scii kiel pononciĝas vorto unue vidata, eĉ se temas pri
stranga persona aŭ familia nomo. La kutimo estas tiom forta ke, se mi vidas
vorton kies akcentosigno estas malĝuste metita, mi legas ĝin malĝuste, eĉ se
la kunteksto klare montras la eraron.
El mia sperto kun la angla lingvo, mi deduktas ke anglalingvanoj lernas sian
lingvon parkerante la prononcojn de la plej uzataj vortoj. Ili poste,
subkonscie, ŝarkas kelkajn regulojn -pli malpli regulajn- el tiu "datumbazo"
da vortoj, per kiu ili divenas la prononcon de la malplej uzataj vortoj. Ĉu
mi pravas?
>> Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
>> pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this
coincidence.
>> But there are only a few like this.
>this for example was one of my longest pronouncing mistakes in
>esperanto.
>we are all beginners, more or less recent ones. don't give up.
Ĉu vere? Mi kredis ke tiu estas tipa eraro nur de hispanlingvanoj (eble
ankaŭ de parolantoj de aliaj latinidaj lingvoj) sed ne de germanoj!
--
____________________________________________________________________
Manuel Pancorbo
http://wwwtios.cs.utwente.nl/adresaro/?Pancorbo
____________________________________________________________________
Bertilo Wennergren
"Manuel Pancorbo":
> >> Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
> >> pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this
> >> coincidence. But there are only a few like this.
> >this for example was one of my longest pronouncing mistakes in
> >esperanto. we are all beginners, more or less recent ones. don't give up.
> Ĉu vere? Mi kredis ke tiu estas tipa eraro nur de hispanlingvanoj (eble
> ankaŭ de parolantoj de aliaj latinidaj lingvoj) sed ne de germanoj!
Ankaŭ Svedoj emas al tiu miselparolo.
--
#####################################################################
Bertilo Wennergren
<http://purl.oclc.org/net/bertilo>
<bert...@chello.se>
#####################################################################
delr...@my-deja.com
"Manuel Pancorbo" <man...@esperanto.nu> wrote:
> El mia sperto kun la angla lingvo, mi deduktas ke anglalingvanoj
lernas sian
> lingvon parkerante la prononcojn de la plej uzataj vortoj. Ili poste,
> subkonscie, ţarkas kelkajn regulojn -pli malpli regulajn- el tiu
"datumbazo"
> da vortoj, per kiu ili divenas la prononcon de la malplej uzataj
vortoj. Ću
> mi pravas?
>
Ja, vi pravas laux mi. Estas angla vorto, "politic", kiu estas adjektivo.
Laux mi, trisilabaj adjektivoj anglaj prononcigxus kun la dua silabo
akcenta. Ekz. "at-TEN-tive". Sed, tiu vorto prononigxas "POL-it-ic",
ne "pol-IT-ic".
Mi cxiam memorigas min mem, ke tiu vorto ne sekvas la "regulo".
Grego (kiu estas sola)
Dkcsac
>> Romance language, Romanova, avoids the problem because it keeps the
>accent. Its
>
>Keeps the accent where? Is it predictable for every word?
I keeps it where most Romance-speakers would expect it in nearly all words.
The rules are very similar to those of Spanish, used by about half of
Romance-speakers. And for those that don't know a Romance-language, the
spelling shows the stressed syllable, like this:
--If a word has an apostrophe, the stress is on the vowel just before it.
Otherwise, words ending in a, e, i, o, u, or s are stressed on the next-to-last
syllable, and words ending in a consonant are stressed on the last syllable.
The letters i and u are not considered full vowels, but semivowels, when
followed by another any vowel, or when preceded by a, e, or o, unless the i or
u has an apostrophe after it, which shows that it's a full vowel. The stress of
conjugated verbs is completely predictable.
http://members.aol.com/dkcsac/myhomepage/romanova.htm
David Crandall
Project Romanova
El acsento to'nico es similar al acsento del espaniese; un apo'strofo depo'is
una vocal indica la si'laba ce tiene el acsento to'nico. Relativo a los
vocablos sinsa apo'strofo (la maiorida' grande), los vocablos ce termina con
una vocal o "s" tiene el acsento to'nico en la si'laba depo'is la u'ltima
si'laba. Los vocablos ce termina con una consonante ce no es "s" tiene el
acsento to'nico en la u'ltima si'laba. Las letras "i" i "u" es semivocales
cuando es segidas por cualce vocal, o cuando es presedidas por "a", "e", o "o";
eles es pronunsiadas como la "y" de los vocablos espanieses "oye" i "voy", i la
"u" de los vocablos espanieses "hueco" i "causa". La "i" i la "u" no es
si'labas separadas en esto caso, ame'noce es segidas por un apo'strofo, ce
indica ce no es parte de un diptongo, ma al contrario vocales normales.
http://members.aol.com/dkcsac/myhomepage/romanova.htm
David Crandall
Projeto Romanova
La akcentoj similighas al la hispanaj; la apostrofo post vokalo montras ghin
kiel akcentita. Pri vortoj sen apostrofo (la granda plejparto), vortoj finitaj
en vokalo au en la litero "s" akcentighas en la antaulasta silabo, kiel en
Esperanto. Vortoj finitaj en konsonanto krom "s", akcentighas en la lasta
silabo.
La literoj "i" kaj "u" prononcighas kiel la esperantaj "j" (en la vorto "jes")
kaj "u" (en la vorto "uesto") kiam ili estas sekvita de iu ajn vokalo, kaj
ankau kiam "a", "e", au "o" antauiras. Do, "i" kaj "u" ne estas vokaloj en tiuj
okazoj, escepte kiam ili estas sekvitaj de apostrofo, kiu montras ilin kiel
akcentitaj vokaloj. La akcento de la konjugacita verbo estas tute lauregula.
http://members.aol.com/dkcsac/myhomepage/romanova.htm
David Crandall
Projekto Romanova
Marko Rauhamaa
> Laux mi, trisilabaj adjektivoj anglaj prononcigxus kun la dua silabo
> akcenta. Ekz. "at-TEN-tive". Sed, tiu vorto prononigxas "POL-it-ic",
> ne "pol-IT-ic".
narrower, shallower, lovelier
beautiful, plentiful
loitering, boycotted
Arabic
probable, possible, liable, visible, edible, potable, doable, feasible
simian
maximal, minimal, optimal
Marko
--
Marko Rauhamaa mailto:ma...@pacujo.nu http://www.pacujo.nu/marko/
Nancy Anderson
Manuel Pancorbo wrote:
> El mia sperto kun la angla lingvo, mi deduktas ke anglalingvanoj lernas sian
> lingvon parkerante la prononcojn de la plej uzataj vortoj. Ili poste,
> subkonscie, ţarkas kelkajn regulojn -pli malpli regulajn- el tiu "datumbazo"
> da vortoj, per kiu ili divenas la prononcon de la malplej uzataj vortoj. Ću
> mi pravas?
Jes. Kaj iuj denaskaj anglalingvanoj lernas ecx la regulojn plejparte
per ekzemploj. Ili uzas la regulojn gxuste sed ne povas ekspliki ilin.
Ekzemple, kiel multaj homoj cxi tie jam scias, la nedifina artikolo
estas "a" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per konsonanto. La nedifina
artikolo estas "an" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per vokalo (aux
silenta "h"). Do, "a tomato", sed "an orange." Gxis lastatempe, mia
edzo ne sciis tion, konscie, kvankam li cxiam uzis perfekte ambaux
formojn de la artikolo. Li finfine analizis la aferon kaj miris! (Li ja
estas inteligenta sed ne tre observema.)
Amike,
Nancy
Donald J. HARLOW
>Manuel Pancorbo wrote:
>
> > El mia sperto kun la angla lingvo, mi deduktas ke anglalingvanoj lernas
> sian
> > lingvon parkerante la prononcojn de la plej uzataj vortoj. Ili poste,
> > subkonscie, ţarkas kelkajn regulojn -pli malpli regulajn- el tiu
> "datumbazo"
> > da vortoj, per kiu ili divenas la prononcon de la malplej uzataj vortoj. Ću
> > mi pravas?
>
>Jes. Kaj iuj denaskaj anglalingvanoj lernas ecx la regulojn plejparte
>per ekzemploj. Ili uzas la regulojn gxuste sed ne povas ekspliki ilin.
>Ekzemple, kiel multaj homoj cxi tie jam scias, la nedifina artikolo
>estas "a" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per konsonanto. La nedifina
>artikolo estas "an" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per vokalo (aux
>silenta "h").
Ni aldonu la ekstran regulon, ke se la komenca vokalo estas 'u' kaj estas
elparolata kun komenca (sed nemontrata) 'j'-sono, oni uzu la 'a' kaj ne
'an'; "a union".
>Do, "a tomato", sed "an orange." Gxis lastatempe, mia
>edzo ne sciis tion, konscie, kvankam li cxiam uzis perfekte ambaux
>formojn de la artikolo. Li finfine analizis la aferon kaj miris! (Li ja
>estas inteligenta sed ne tre observema.)
Tiaj ofte estas la edzoj. Nur demandu mian edzinon; sxi nepre konsentos kun
vi. :<)
Nancy Anderson
"Donald J. HARLOW" wrote:
>
> Je 08:57 atm 2/3/01 -0600, Nancy Anderson skribis
>
> >iuj denaskaj anglalingvanoj lernas ecx la regulojn plejparte
> >per ekzemploj. Ili uzas la regulojn gxuste sed ne povas ekspliki ilin.
> >Ekzemple, kiel multaj homoj cxi tie jam scias, la nedifina artikolo
> >estas "a" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per konsonanto. La nedifina
> >artikolo estas "an" antaux vortoj kiuj komencigxas per vokalo (aux
> >silenta "h").
>
> Ni aldonu la ekstran regulon, ke se la komenca vokalo estas 'u' kaj estas
> elparolata kun komenca (sed nemontrata) 'j'-sono, oni uzu la 'a' kaj ne
> 'an'; "a union".
Vere. Forgesante tiun regulon, mi plu ilustris (senintencie) mian
propran argumenton.
Amike,
Nancy
Kristjano
> (Dkcsac) wrote:
> > Our neutral Romance language, Romanova, avoids the problem
> > because it keeps the accent.
>
> Keeps the accent where? Is it predictable for every word?
It is obvisouly predictable if you are fluent in French, Spanish and
Italian. Knowing about Latin would be a great help too.
Kristjano
> > > Our neutral Romance language, Romanova, avoids the
> > > problem because it keeps the accent. Its
> > > Keeps the accent where? Is it predictable for every word?
Romanova :
> The rules are very similar to those of Spanish, used by about half of
> Romance-speakers. And for those that don't know a Romance-language,
the
> spelling shows the stressed syllable, like this:
> --If a word has an apostrophe, the stress is on the vowel just before
it.
> Otherwise, words ending in a, e, i, o, u, or s are stressed on the
next-to-last
> syllable, and words ending in a consonant are stressed on the last
syllable.
> The letters i and u are not considered full vowels, but semivowels,
when
> followed by another any vowel, or when preceded by a, e, or o, unless
the i or
> u has an apostrophe after it, which shows that it's a full vowel. The
stress of
> conjugated verbs is completely predictable.
Esperanto :
The stress is on the next-to-last syllab.
Some of us have a strange way of avoiding problems.
Dkcsac
>> > because it keeps the accent.
>>
>> Keeps the accent where? Is it predictable for every word?
>
>It is obvisouly predictable if you are fluent in French, Spanish and
>Italian. Knowing about Latin would be a great help too.
Knowing Standard French doesn't help much with predicting Romanova's stress
accents because its stress patterns are very different from those of most
Romance languages, but I estimate that monolingual French-speakers are probably
no more than one-eighth of all Romance-speakers. Fortunately, stress isn't
quite as important in Romanova as it is in some Romance languages in which it
distinguishes verb forms, since Romanova's verb conjugation is much simpler,
lacking personal verb endings.
David Crandall
Project Romanova
http://members.aol.com/romanovasite
Pierre Levy
..
>
>Esperanto :
>
>The stress is on the next-to-last syllab.
>
>Some of us have a strange way of avoiding problems.
>
tro rekta. 8-D
Petro.
Pierre Levy
la korsikan, la katalunan, diversajn regionajn variantojn de okcitanaj
lingvoj, la romanchan lingvon parolatan en Svisio kaj kelkajn aliajn.
Tamen ne malhelpus, se vi scius la rusan, la serban, la kroatan,
la slovenan, la bulgaran kaj kelkajn aliajn.
Nepre ne lernu la polan kaj la chehhan, kies akcentado estas tro
artefarita, same kiel tiu de la suomia, de la hungara kaj de la turka.
Pardonu, ke mi ne plilongigos tiun tro nekompletan liston.
Petro.
Stephan Schneider
>> "estas mujeres son muy guapas."
>
>Prave.
:) bone, mi malmulte ekzercas la hispanan.
>Tial estas facile scii kiel pononci?as vorto unue vidata, e? se temas pri
>stranga persona a? familia nomo. La kutimo estas tiom forta ke, se mi vidas
>vorton kies akcentosigno estas mal?uste metita, mi legas ?in mal?uste, e? se
>la kunteksto klare montras la eraron.
jes. la regulecon de la hispana cxi-rilate cxiam placxis al mi.
>El mia sperto kun la angla lingvo, mi deduktas ke anglalingvanoj lernas sian
>lingvon parkerante la prononcojn de la plej uzataj vortoj. Ili poste,
>subkonscie, ?arkas kelkajn regulojn -pli malpli regulajn- el tiu "datumbazo"
>da vortoj, per kiu ili divenas la prononcon de la malplej uzataj vortoj. ?u
>mi pravas?
nu, mi versxajne tiel faras. kaj ofte mi rimarkas ke eblas multaj ebloj kiel
divene-eble prononci la vorton. tiam mi konsolu la vortaro-libron kaj mi ofte
surprizigxas.
>>> Only single words like "apud" (esperanto pronounced "AP-ud", spanish
>>> pronounced "ap-UD", accordingly with rule 2) fall out of this
>coincidence.
>>> But there are only a few like this.
>
>>this for example was one of my longest pronouncing mistakes in
>>esperanto.
>>we are all beginners, more or less recent ones. don't give up.
>
>?u vere? Mi kredis ke tiu estas tipa eraro nur de hispanlingvanoj (eble
>anka? de parolantoj de aliaj latinidaj lingvoj) sed ne de germanoj!
eble mia hispana scipovo influis min. mi ne scias. mi priatentos tion cxe
germanoj. :-)
gxis!
sts.
arvimide
on 2/1/01 2:06 PM:
>
> 2) is j a vowel? is the aux combination a single vowel, or two?
"J" is a consonant. When immediately following a vowel, it serves to form a
diphthong, so you might consider it in that position a semi-vowel.
> do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
Yes
> or " unu lIngvo, du lIngvoj"?
No, each word in a phrase has internal word accent.
> do i say "ankAux" or "Ankaux"?
Ankaux
>
> 3) how do i pronounce the kn combination? i know you are supposed
> to say both, but how do you say two consonants? i have been
> saying "kuh-na-boh" for knabo. am i doing it right?
Close enough, but imitating German pronunciation of that consonant
combination would be better.
>
> 4) can you change nouns into verbs? or verbs into nouns?
> can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
> brace that holds some older people up)? can you add -i
> to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
Derivation is rather more complicated than you suppose. The examples you
cite demand various solutions.
++=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., ||
||<arvi...@mars.superlink.net> ||
|| ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., ||
||<arvi...@mars.superlink.net> ||
|| ||
||"Wer die Fragen nicht beantwortet, hat die Pruefung ||
||bestanden." Kafka, "Die Pruefung" ||
|| ||
||'Kiu ne respondas al la demandoj, tiu estas ||
||sukcesinta en la ekzameno.' Kafka, "La ekzameno" ||
++=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====+=====++
Marko Rauhamaa
> > 2) is j a vowel? is the aux combination a single vowel, or two?
>
> "J" is a consonant. When immediately following a vowel, it serves to
> form a diphthong, so you might consider it in that position a
> semi-vowel.
Pli precize: kiam J estas inter vokalo kaj konsonanto, ĝi formas
diftongon ("tuj post"). Antaŭ vokalo J ordinare prononciĝas kiel pura
konsonanto ("tiujara", "tuj antaŭ").
> > do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
>
> Yes
Nu, "dU lIngvoj".
> > 4) can you change nouns into verbs?
Jes.
> > or verbs into nouns?
Jes.
> > can you add -o to the verb for walk and get walker(the
> > brace that holds some older people up)?
Ne.
> > can you add -i to the noun for car and get 'to drive'?
Jes.
Stephan Schneider
> > do i say,"Unu lIngvo, dU lingvOj"
>
> Yes
no! you say "dU lIngvoj" and "Unu lIngvo", because j is not a vowel.
sts.
arvimide
schne...@vt.siemens.de wrote on 2/9/01 12:02 PM:
Right. I thought he was talking about the plural after "du," not stress.
Jukka Vaijärvi
delr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Ja, vi pravas laux mi. Estas angla vorto, "politic", kiu estas adjektivo.
> Laux mi, trisilabaj adjektivoj anglaj prononcigxus kun la dua silabo
> akcenta. Ekz. "at-TEN-tive". Sed, tiu vorto prononigxas "POL-it-ic",
> ne "pol-IT-ic".
Mi dividus tion vorton po-li-tic, cxar por mi kiel finno estas tute
nature komeci cxiun silabon kun konsonanto.
poulitikäli,
Jukka
Marko Rauhamaa
> > Ja, vi pravas laux mi. Estas angla vorto, "politic", kiu estas adjektivo.
> > Laux mi, trisilabaj adjektivoj anglaj prononcigxus kun la dua silabo
> > akcenta. Ekz. "at-TEN-tive". Sed, tiu vorto prononigxas "POL-it-ic",
> > ne "pol-IT-ic".
>
> Mi dividus tion vorton po-li-tic, cxar por mi kiel finno estas tute
> nature komeci cxiun silabon kun konsonanto.
Laŭ mia kompreno la silabigtradicio de la angla lingvo estas proksimume
jena: tiel nomatajn mallongajn vokalojn oni trovas nur en silaboj, kiuj
finiĝas per konsonanto. Tiel nomatajn longajn vokalojn oni trovas nur en
silaboj, kiuj finiĝas per vokalo aŭ duonkonsonanto. Krome la angla
lingvo ankoraŭ duone havas la ĝermanan principon, laŭ kiu mallongan,
akcentatan vokalon sekvas du konsonantoj ("kick", "well", "getting",
"rebuttal"). Tamen tiu principo aplikiĝas ĝenerale nur al la ĝermanaj
vortoj (kaj esceptaj konsonantoj estas ekzemple "v" kaj vortfine multaj
aliaj).
Tamen kiel kutime la anglan lingvon oni neniam povas densigi en tiel
simplajn regulojn: afiksojn oni apartigas kontraŭ la prononcregulo
("feel-ing", "read-er").