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La plej grava malsukceso de Esperanto.
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Nikolao Mihajlenko
May 9, 2013, 6:17:13 PM5/9/13
to
Ni ne sukcesis dum tuta centjaro fari ech malgrandan sed konstantan vilaghon, kie chiuj parolus chiutage nur Esperanton.
Amikeco inter esperantistoj estas iluzora, nur por tagoj de Kongreso. En chiutaga vivo ni ne eltenos unu la alian.
La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj. Gejununoj shatas ighi "steloj" de televidio. Pripensu tion. Mono donos forton toleri aliajn esperantistojn en tutmonda vilagho.
http://mi.anihost.ru
"La interlingvistika mondo de Nikolao Mihajlenko"
Amikeco inter esperantistoj estas iluzora, nur por tagoj de Kongreso. En chiutaga vivo ni ne eltenos unu la alian.
La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj. Gejununoj shatas ighi "steloj" de televidio. Pripensu tion. Mono donos forton toleri aliajn esperantistojn en tutmonda vilagho.
http://mi.anihost.ru
"La interlingvistika mondo de Nikolao Mihajlenko"
Elhana
May 9, 2013, 11:46:01 PM5/9/13
to
Nikolao Mihajlenko:
> La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj
And who will watch how boring youths will speak in incomprehensible language? A non-starter.
> La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj
indrik...@gmail.com
May 9, 2013, 11:57:59 PM5/9/13
to
2013年5月10日金曜日 12時46分01秒 UTC+9 Elhana:
Klivo
> Nikolao Mihajlenko:
> > La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj
>
> And who will watch how boring youths will speak in incomprehensible language? A non-starter.
Not a problem. You won't be invited.
> > La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj
>
> And who will watch how boring youths will speak in incomprehensible language? A non-starter.
Klivo
Damien BRUCKER
May 10, 2013, 4:41:39 AM5/10/13
to
Mi ne konsentas kun vi: la disvastiĝo de Esperanto progresas ja
malrapide, sed regule tra la jaroj kaj inter la tutmondaj popoloj. En
Ĉinujo kaj Brazilo, ĝi trafas pli kaj pli multon da homoj, danke al la
laboro de fervoraj Esperantistoj.
Iam alvenos certa tago, kiam la registaroj ekkonscios pri gî, kiel taùga
kaj efika ilo por komunikadi kaj komerci.
Sed atendante, ni devas labori por diskonigi ĝin.
Eĉ plej malgranda guto da akvo valoras en ĉiu granda maro....
Rilate al via propono, ni havas jam kelkajn esperantajn radioelsendojn,
por ekzerci nin pri la lingvo.
Damieno el Francujo.
malrapide, sed regule tra la jaroj kaj inter la tutmondaj popoloj. En
Ĉinujo kaj Brazilo, ĝi trafas pli kaj pli multon da homoj, danke al la
laboro de fervoraj Esperantistoj.
Iam alvenos certa tago, kiam la registaroj ekkonscios pri gî, kiel taùga
kaj efika ilo por komunikadi kaj komerci.
Sed atendante, ni devas labori por diskonigi ĝin.
Eĉ plej malgranda guto da akvo valoras en ĉiu granda maro....
Rilate al via propono, ni havas jam kelkajn esperantajn radioelsendojn,
por ekzerci nin pri la lingvo.
Damieno el Francujo.
Elhana
May 10, 2013, 5:47:10 AM5/10/13
to
Damien BRUCKER:
> Iam alvenos certa tago, kiam la registaroj ekkonscios pri gî, kiel taùga
> kaj efika ilo por komunikadi kaj komerci.
> *gî*
> *taùga*
> kiel taùga kaj efika ilo
> taùga
LOL.
It has been just 70 years since the people of Europe were burning each other alive, and yet suddenly everyone will feel an urge to learn a rather dismal conlang for a grand family circle with their neighbors.
Esperanto was killed in 1915. Since that time people had started to regard the languages as mere tools. In that fair comparison, there is no redeeming qualities for Esperanto, and it obsoletes much faster than progresses.
Even such trivial matters arisen recently, like gender-neutral pronouns, has become an insurmountable barrier for Esperanto.
What can espists answer when they are cornered with statistics that only 10% of people manage to finish learning it and use it thereafter?
Espists promise people bread but give out stones.
> Iam alvenos certa tago, kiam la registaroj ekkonscios pri gî, kiel taùga
> kaj efika ilo por komunikadi kaj komerci.
> *taùga*
> kiel taùga kaj efika ilo
LOL.
It has been just 70 years since the people of Europe were burning each other alive, and yet suddenly everyone will feel an urge to learn a rather dismal conlang for a grand family circle with their neighbors.
Esperanto was killed in 1915. Since that time people had started to regard the languages as mere tools. In that fair comparison, there is no redeeming qualities for Esperanto, and it obsoletes much faster than progresses.
Even such trivial matters arisen recently, like gender-neutral pronouns, has become an insurmountable barrier for Esperanto.
What can espists answer when they are cornered with statistics that only 10% of people manage to finish learning it and use it thereafter?
Espists promise people bread but give out stones.
Oto Tekihaki
May 10, 2013, 6:19:46 AM5/10/13
to
Il giorno venerdì 10 maggio 2013 00:17:13 UTC+2, Nikolao Mihajlenko ha scritto:
> Ni ne sukcesis dum tuta centjaro fari ech malgrandan sed konstantan vilaghon, kie chiuj parolus chiutage nur Esperanton.
>
>
>
> Amikeco inter esperantistoj estas iluzora, nur por tagoj de Kongreso. En chiutaga vivo ni ne eltenos unu la alian.
>
>
>
> La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj. Gejununoj shatas ighi "steloj" de televidio. Pripensu tion. Mono donos forton toleri aliajn esperantistojn en tutmonda vilagho.
"Forte staras muroj de miljaroj
> Ni ne sukcesis dum tuta centjaro fari ech malgrandan sed konstantan vilaghon, kie chiuj parolus chiutage nur Esperanton.
>
>
>
> Amikeco inter esperantistoj estas iluzora, nur por tagoj de Kongreso. En chiutaga vivo ni ne eltenos unu la alian.
>
>
>
> La ideo: monda seria televidprogramo pri vivo en vilagho de esperantistoj. Gejununoj shatas ighi "steloj" de televidio. Pripensu tion. Mono donos forton toleri aliajn esperantistojn en tutmonda vilagho.
Inter la popoloj dividitaj"
Sed ne nur inter la poploj sed ankaŭ ene de la popoloj, kaj ne nur. En ĉi tiuj krizaj jaroj estas muroj ankaŭ inter la personoj...Sed ĉi tiuj ne estas nur problemoj de la esperantistoj. Do ne estas nur ni kiu foje ne povas elteni unu la alian. Nia vera problemo estas ke ni ne povas aŭdi la voĉon kaj samtempe rigardi en la okulojn de la kundiskutanto. Tiel oni ne povas diveni kion oni devas diri aŭ ne diri. Foje oni ofendas la kundiskutanton ankaŭ senintence... Se ekzistus insulo aŭ malgranda lando kies lingvo estus Esperanto, tiu afero unuflanke estus bona, aliflanke estus malbona. La malbona flanko estus ke iuj maliculoj tuj pretus diri ke Esperanto ne estas neŭtrala lingvo ĉar ĝi estas lingvo de unu lando... Ĉi tiu temo estis vaste diskutata jam antaŭ 9 jaroj en ĉi tiu forumo.
Jen kion oni skribis pri la temo, en ĉi tiu forumo, en la jaro 2004:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=eo&fromgroups=#!searchin/soc.culture.esperanto/Esperanta$20urbo/soc.culture.esperanto/WlSb4sdgkuc/A8pq4r1I6WEJ
...
Oto tekihaki
Elhana
May 10, 2013, 6:56:23 PM5/10/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
> La malbona flanko estus ke iuj maliculoj tuj pretus diri ke Esperanto ne estas neŭtrala lingvo ĉar ĝi estas lingvo de unu lando...
That's great. So Esperanto is somehow neutral despite its grammar is a Western European languages' clone, and vocabulary (including weekdays) is 99,9% European; it's just neutral because it allows anarchy (a polite euphemism for pederasty) which benefits only posers and not people trying to communicate. If that absurd notion is common among espists, we already know how did Esperanto 'earned' its actual place.
P.S. A 'neutral' language where you had to rote the names for weekdays is already screwed up.
> La malbona flanko estus ke iuj maliculoj tuj pretus diri ke Esperanto ne estas neŭtrala lingvo ĉar ĝi estas lingvo de unu lando...
P.S. A 'neutral' language where you had to rote the names for weekdays is already screwed up.
LeviPetro
May 11, 2013, 8:42:56 AM5/11/13
to
Si c'est lui qui le dit, on est bien obligé de le croire, mais ça ne veut pas
dire qu'il en est de même pour tous les autres membres de la secte. Il ne faut
pas généraliser trop hâtivement comme il le fait conformément à sa propension aux stéréotypes. Tout le monde n'est pas forcément comme lui.
Il residente italianào.
Damien BRUCKER
May 12, 2013, 4:59:37 AM5/12/13
to
Do you really know what you are talking about?
Did you ever learn, speak or write Esperanto?
If you would, you would not write suche wrong things, like Esperanto is
obsolete, is dead since 1915 or has no outstanding qualities.
English talking people (from USA, UK) often don't take time to study any
other langage than their mother langage, so they allow themselves to say
that other langages have no worth or qualities.
I learned German, English, French (mother langage), and Esperanto. This
latter is by far the most easy, powerfull, regular and all-purpose
suitable langage I have ever met...
You will never see a man or woman who learned Esperanto saying that he or
she regrets the time passed on it. This is the best evidence, that
Esperanto can bring a lot....if you recognize neutrally it's linguistic
value.
DB
Did you ever learn, speak or write Esperanto?
If you would, you would not write suche wrong things, like Esperanto is
obsolete, is dead since 1915 or has no outstanding qualities.
English talking people (from USA, UK) often don't take time to study any
other langage than their mother langage, so they allow themselves to say
that other langages have no worth or qualities.
I learned German, English, French (mother langage), and Esperanto. This
latter is by far the most easy, powerfull, regular and all-purpose
suitable langage I have ever met...
You will never see a man or woman who learned Esperanto saying that he or
she regrets the time passed on it. This is the best evidence, that
Esperanto can bring a lot....if you recognize neutrally it's linguistic
value.
DB
Elhana
May 12, 2013, 1:38:50 PM5/12/13
to
Damien BRUCKER:
> Did you ever learn, speak or write Esperanto?
Of course I did, and don't want to use it anymore.
> If you would, you would not write suche wrong things, like Esperanto is
> obsolete, is dead since 1915 or has no outstanding qualities.
It is obsolete, as it was based on superficial knowledge and primitive mechanistic beliefs of its author which stood uncorrected ever since. To compensate for it, people who tried to speak in it had to bring the various garbage from their own, constantly Western European languages. It hadn't made the design any better.
When the "great family circle" had just killed 20 millions of its members, the Esperanto rhetoric became looking rather odd.
If Esperanto was indeed a human language, then we could talk about its properties, but it is but a inside joke for Europeans and a pass-code for Europeanized persons. Isn't that the rather opposite to an idea of a language for interracial communication?
> English talking people (from USA, UK) often don't take time to study any
> other langage than their mother langage
I am not from USA or UK. The last thing I want is Frenchmen not having to learn any other language to speak the International one, if it would've been Esperanto.
> I learned German, English, French (mother langage), and Esperanto.
So you are that canonical Western Europe speaker it was made for, but I don't have not time nor resources to learn (a) Romance language(s) to be able to use Esperanto at the same level as you. And you are therefore blind to language diversity.
> You will never see a man or woman who learned Esperanto saying that he or
> she regrets the time passed on it.
People who teach Esperanto and run Esperanto meetings see plenty of them.
> Did you ever learn, speak or write Esperanto?
> If you would, you would not write suche wrong things, like Esperanto is
> obsolete, is dead since 1915 or has no outstanding qualities.
When the "great family circle" had just killed 20 millions of its members, the Esperanto rhetoric became looking rather odd.
If Esperanto was indeed a human language, then we could talk about its properties, but it is but a inside joke for Europeans and a pass-code for Europeanized persons. Isn't that the rather opposite to an idea of a language for interracial communication?
> English talking people (from USA, UK) often don't take time to study any
> other langage than their mother langage
> I learned German, English, French (mother langage), and Esperanto.
> You will never see a man or woman who learned Esperanto saying that he or
> she regrets the time passed on it.
Damien BRUCKER
May 12, 2013, 2:17:28 PM5/12/13
to
According to your statements, you may belong to linguists who aim to get
rid off the Esperanto langage for some obscur reasons...
We can find a lot of them on the forum "Ask a linguist".
Since the beginning of it's history, Esperanto has already been a ennemy
for some international institutions and national governements, who need
to divide the people through langage, in order to keep their power over
them...
Esperanto allows the people to talk between themselves over the bordures,
without the mean of the official media and propaganda: this property is a
menace for the elite.
Now , we know to whom you belong....and for what you write here...
rid off the Esperanto langage for some obscur reasons...
We can find a lot of them on the forum "Ask a linguist".
Since the beginning of it's history, Esperanto has already been a ennemy
for some international institutions and national governements, who need
to divide the people through langage, in order to keep their power over
them...
Esperanto allows the people to talk between themselves over the bordures,
without the mean of the official media and propaganda: this property is a
menace for the elite.
Now , we know to whom you belong....and for what you write here...
Oto Tekihaki
May 12, 2013, 2:30:01 PM5/12/13
to
Oto
Elhana
May 13, 2013, 3:33:04 AM5/13/13
to
Damien BRUCKER:
> you may belong to linguists
I don't belong to linguists, happily.
> ...Esperanto has already been a ennemy
And that's why governments spend money teaching various foreign languages to their populace.
> Esperanto allows the people to talk between themselves over the bordures,
> without the mean of the official media and propaganda: this property is a
> menace for the elite.
No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle. Only what the elites will consider suitable will be retold in Esperanto and therefore publicly available.
> you may belong to linguists
> ...Esperanto has already been a ennemy
> for some international institutions and national governements, who need
> to divide the people through langage....
And that's why governments spend money teaching various foreign languages to their populace.
> Esperanto allows the people to talk between themselves over the bordures,
> without the mean of the official media and propaganda: this property is a
> menace for the elite.
Elhana
May 13, 2013, 3:45:36 AM5/13/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
> Se vi ne iras vivi inter la homoj kies lingvon vi lernis, vi perdis monon tute vane.
If you say this, you were probably being taught by cheap *SL coursebooks, instead of rare and expensive *FL ones. That is the hallmark of fraudulent language courses, BTW.
Learning languages is hard. Even the most primitive ones like English take hundreds of hours to cover the details and aspects of simple conversations. The certification is therefore similarly complex, but it's objective.
What does Esperanto instead? It substitutes the learning with time-wasting, and its certification is only a farce to produce better formal results. The actual proficiency of people who finished such courses cannot be evaluated by independent means, and allows its organizers to collect the fees or grants (in case of schools and such) with impunity, and be gone before their ruse will be discovered.
> Al kio servis al mi studi dek jarojn la rusan?
I don't know. Isn't that you who should know best his own motivation?
> Se vi ne iras vivi inter la homoj kies lingvon vi lernis, vi perdis monon tute vane.
Learning languages is hard. Even the most primitive ones like English take hundreds of hours to cover the details and aspects of simple conversations. The certification is therefore similarly complex, but it's objective.
What does Esperanto instead? It substitutes the learning with time-wasting, and its certification is only a farce to produce better formal results. The actual proficiency of people who finished such courses cannot be evaluated by independent means, and allows its organizers to collect the fees or grants (in case of schools and such) with impunity, and be gone before their ruse will be discovered.
> Al kio servis al mi studi dek jarojn la rusan?
Oto Tekihaki
May 13, 2013, 8:00:34 AM5/13/13
to
Il giorno lunedì 13 maggio 2013 09:45:36 UTC+2, Elhana ha scritto:
> Oto Tekihaki:
>
>
>
> > Se vi ne iras vivi inter la homoj kies lingvon vi lernis, vi perdis monon tute vane.
>
>
>
> If you say this, you were probably being taught by cheap *SL coursebooks, instead of rare and expensive *FL ones. That is the hallmark of fraudulent language courses, BTW.
>
>
>
> Learning languages is hard. Even the most primitive ones like English take hundreds of hours to cover the details and aspects of simple conversations. The certification is therefore similarly complex, but it's objective.
Mi ne kredas.
> Oto Tekihaki:
>
>
>
> > Se vi ne iras vivi inter la homoj kies lingvon vi lernis, vi perdis monon tute vane.
>
>
>
> If you say this, you were probably being taught by cheap *SL coursebooks, instead of rare and expensive *FL ones. That is the hallmark of fraudulent language courses, BTW.
>
>
>
> Learning languages is hard. Even the most primitive ones like English take hundreds of hours to cover the details and aspects of simple conversations. The certification is therefore similarly complex, but it's objective.
>
>
>
> What does Esperanto instead? It substitutes the learning with time-wasting, and its certification is only a farce to produce better formal results. The actual proficiency of people who finished such courses cannot be evaluated by independent means, and allows its organizers to collect the fees or grants (in case of schools and such) with impunity, and be gone before their ruse will be discovered.
>
Evidente vi ne kalkulis la aŭtodidaktojn. Vi jam decidis ke Esperanto estas mortinta en 1915. Vi miras ke ĝi ekzistas ankoraŭ. Se ĝi ankoraŭ ekzistas tio nepre signifas ke la instruistoj de Esperanto estas malhonestaj. La instruistoj de la aliaj fremdaj lingvoj precipe tiuj de la angla estas ĉiuj sanktuloj. Venu fari ĉirkaŭvojaĝon en Italio kaj vi komprenos kion signifas la "The actual proficiency" Nu, eble estas pli bone ke vi lernu unue la italan lingvon.
>
>
> What does Esperanto instead? It substitutes the learning with time-wasting, and its certification is only a farce to produce better formal results. The actual proficiency of people who finished such courses cannot be evaluated by independent means, and allows its organizers to collect the fees or grants (in case of schools and such) with impunity, and be gone before their ruse will be discovered.
>
Tre amuze. Komplimentojn Trolboy Pinocchio!
>> Al kio servis al mi studi dek jarojn la rusan?
>I don't know. Isn't that you who should know best his own motivation?
...
Oto
Elhana
May 14, 2013, 5:03:12 AM5/14/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
> Mi ne kredas.
You don't believe what?
> Evidente vi ne kalkulis la aŭtodidaktojn.
I don't care about them.
> Vi jam decidis ke Esperanto estas mortinta en 1915.
It was not me who decide so; it was millions of people who just forgot about Esperanto forever: In early XX century it was very trendy, in 1920s it was openly ridiculed, in XXI it has become a comedy device.
> Vi miras ke ĝi ekzistas ankoraŭ.
Not actually.
> Se ĝi ankoraŭ ekzistas tio nepre signifas ke la instruistoj de Esperanto estas malhonestaj. La instruistoj de la aliaj fremdaj lingvoj precipe tiuj de la angla estas ĉiuj sanktuloj.
If a teacher of English is teaching it as Esperanto teachers do, he will not keep his place for long. English is a language used by millions of people, so *the teaching level can be easily controlled*. Not a single living soul has ever been speaking Esperanto; all we can have is a trademarked version of a "true" language by a certain sect division. Why do Esperanto teachers say: "Don't ever visit that other club," "Don't use those books, use these we approved," and so on?
> Mi ne kredas.
You don't believe what?
> Evidente vi ne kalkulis la aŭtodidaktojn.
> Vi jam decidis ke Esperanto estas mortinta en 1915.
> Vi miras ke ĝi ekzistas ankoraŭ.
> Se ĝi ankoraŭ ekzistas tio nepre signifas ke la instruistoj de Esperanto estas malhonestaj. La instruistoj de la aliaj fremdaj lingvoj precipe tiuj de la angla estas ĉiuj sanktuloj.
Oto Tekihaki
May 14, 2013, 9:22:18 AM5/14/13
to
Tio ne signifas ke vi kelkfoje ne diras la veron. Kelkfoje eĉ blinda kokino trovas semon. :-)
La disdialektiĝo estas vera kontraŭbatalenda problemo de Esperanto. Ĉiuj provas konduki la akvon al sia propra muelejo. Ekzemple hungaroj kaj germanoj, por ne grandigi la vortostokon preferas konstrui kunmetitajn vortojn. Aliflanke francoj kaj italoj preferas havi apartan vorton por ĉiu aparta ideo. Ĉinoj forigus devigan pluralon ktp. Rusoj forigus artikolon. Anglalingvanoj forigus ĉapelitajn literojn..Ktp.ktp. Jen al kio servas la Fundamento...
Oto
indrik...@gmail.com
May 14, 2013, 12:50:36 PM5/14/13
to
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:03:12 PM UTC+9, Elhana wrote:
> Why do Esperanto teachers say: "Don't ever visit that other club,"
> "Don't use those books, use these we approved," and so on?
Ah, so you've been to an Esperanto club. I bet you made quite an impression. :-)
> Why do Esperanto teachers say: "Don't ever visit that other club,"
> "Don't use those books, use these we approved," and so on?
Klivo
Oto Tekihaki
May 14, 2013, 3:32:31 PM5/14/13
to
Oto
indrik...@gmail.com
May 14, 2013, 10:42:28 PM5/14/13
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:32:31 AM UTC+9, Oto Tekihaki wrote:
> Antaŭ ĉio, Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
Mi opinias ke Esperanto estas hind-eŭropa lingvo, kiu plej similas
> Antaŭ ĉio, Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
al la latinidaj lingvoj.
En alia fadeno, Petro skribis (mi tradukas):
"Male, la radikoj de Esperanto estas sendependaj vortoj kaj
ne ŝanĝiĝas laŭ formo nek signifo."
Pri tio li pravas, sed laŭ mi, oni devas ne troigi la gravecon de ĉi
tiu unu trajto. Homoj kiuj parolas nur hind-eŭropajn lingvojn
ne konscias pri kiom malsimilaj estas la lingvoj de aliaj lingvo-
familioj.
> La motivo de la malneŭtraleco de la angla ne dependas de la
> fakto ke ĝi prunteprenis vortojn el ĉiuj okcident-eŭropaj lingvoj.
> La neŭtraleco estas alia afero.
ligita al ies imperio.
(Nek al juda komploto, spite la rasismajn deliraĵojn de nia knabaĉo.)
Klivo
Elhana
May 14, 2013, 11:41:11 PM5/14/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
> ...la gramatiko de Esperanto estas pli simila al tiu de la hungara ol al tiu de la franca
> ...Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
> ...la gramatiko de Esperanto estas pli simila al tiu de la hungara ol al tiu de la franca
> ...Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
Elhana
May 14, 2013, 11:57:35 PM5/14/13
to
indrik...@gmail.com:
> Mi konsentas pri tio. Esperanto estas politike neŭtrala. Ĝi ne estas
> ligita al ies imperio.
The language cannot exist separately from business activity of humans. The most prominent example of it is Latin language: it took just a couple of centuries for it to completely degenerate and die. A language not involved in that activity is not capable to be international auxlang.
> Mi konsentas pri tio. Esperanto estas politike neŭtrala. Ĝi ne estas
> ligita al ies imperio.
Elhana
May 15, 2013, 12:00:09 AM5/15/13
to
In English, the word for Sunday means 'the day of the Sun'.
In Esperanto, it means 'the day of our Lord'.
So even cultural neutrality, a trivial thing for conlang, doesn't show here either.
In Esperanto, it means 'the day of our Lord'.
So even cultural neutrality, a trivial thing for conlang, doesn't show here either.
Oto Tekihaki
May 15, 2013, 1:04:15 AM5/15/13
to
Oto
indrik...@gmail.com
May 15, 2013, 2:05:58 AM5/15/13
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:41:11 PM UTC+9, Elhana wrote:
> Oto Tekihaki:
Esperanto was developed primarily to separate servants
from masters. :-)
Klivo
> Oto Tekihaki:
> > ...Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
>
> And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
... right beside your arguments which demonstrate that
>
> And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
Esperanto was developed primarily to separate servants
from masters. :-)
Klivo
indrik...@gmail.com
May 15, 2013, 3:36:12 AM5/15/13
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:57:35 PM UTC+9, Elhana wrote:
> indrik...@gmail.com:
>
> > Mi konsentas pri tio. Esperanto estas politike neŭtrala. Ĝi ne estas
> > ligita al ies imperio.
>
> The language cannot exist separately from business activity of humans.
> The most prominent example of it is Latin language: it took just a couple
> of centuries for it to completely degenerate and die.
By a couple centuries, you mean 12 centuries, of course.
> indrik...@gmail.com:
>
> > Mi konsentas pri tio. Esperanto estas politike neŭtrala. Ĝi ne estas
> > ligita al ies imperio.
>
> The language cannot exist separately from business activity of humans.
> The most prominent example of it is Latin language: it took just a couple
> of centuries for it to completely degenerate and die.
> A language not involved in that activity is not capable to be international
> auxlang.
Klivo
Elhana
May 15, 2013, 8:12:17 AM5/15/13
to
indrik...@gmail.com:
> By a couple centuries, you mean 12 centuries, of course.
In XIII century the Latin had already degenerated enough so its use as a language became impossible. Its sphere was limited to typical SL use. But even then it lasted for about 5 centuries only.
> By a couple centuries, you mean 12 centuries, of course.
Elhana
May 15, 2013, 8:13:23 AM5/15/13
to
Elhana:
> > ...la gramatiko de Esperanto estas pli simila al tiu de la hungara ol al tiu de la franca
>
> > ...Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
>
> And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
So will we see some proof of those ridiculous statements?
> > ...la gramatiko de Esperanto estas pli simila al tiu de la hungara ol al tiu de la franca
>
> > ...Esperanto ne havas okcident-eŭropan gramatikon.
>
> And your arguments for it not to have WE grammar are...
Oto Tekihaki
May 15, 2013, 8:36:49 AM5/15/13
to
Oto
indrik...@gmail.com
May 15, 2013, 12:03:08 PM5/15/13
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:12:17 PM UTC+9, Elhana wrote:
> In XIII century the Latin had already degenerated enough so its
> use as a language became impossible.
Laŭ mia gusto, la prononco de mezepoka Latino sonas pli bela
> In XIII century the Latin had already degenerated enough so its
> use as a language became impossible.
ol la prononco de klasika Latino. (Kompreneble, estas iom da
malcerteco pri la prononco de la klasika lingvo.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UKlXS20kBI
Klivo
Elhana
May 15, 2013, 10:13:27 PM5/15/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
So you just throw in the random 'facts' from your propaganda handbook, and refuse to back them? Great.
> Demandu vi mem hungarojn kial ili konsideras Esperanton de 5 al 10 foje pli facile lerneblan ol la anglan aŭ la francan.
Who does consider? Why does he consider it so? Where does he consider it so?
I have read only about how a Hungarian was appalled by the quality of Esperanto texts his compatriots usually produce, despite their being believed to know Esperanto well.
So you just throw in the random 'facts' from your propaganda handbook, and refuse to back them? Great.
> Demandu vi mem hungarojn kial ili konsideras Esperanton de 5 al 10 foje pli facile lerneblan ol la anglan aŭ la francan.
I have read only about how a Hungarian was appalled by the quality of Esperanto texts his compatriots usually produce, despite their being believed to know Esperanto well.
Oto Tekihaki
May 15, 2013, 11:01:24 PM5/15/13
to
Oto
Elhana
May 16, 2013, 3:19:55 AM5/16/13
to
Oto Tekihaki:
> Anstataŭe la anglan lingvon ili parolas perfekte ĉar ĝi estas la plej facila lingvo de la mondo
To be completely objective, nowadays each European whelp of 15 knows English at CAE-compatible level: it is educational standard. Our generations may be in a disadvantage here, but it is irrelevant.
But the matter at hand is:
> Anstataŭe la anglan lingvon ili parolas perfekte ĉar ĝi estas la plej facila lingvo de la mondo
But the matter at hand is:
LeviPetro
May 16, 2013, 7:45:10 AM5/16/13
to
Le jeudi 16 mai 2013 09:19:55 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
...
>
> To be completely objective, nowadays each European whelp of 15 knows English at CAE-compatible level: it is educational standard. Our generations may be in a disadvantage here, but it is irrelevant.
>
S'il y avait seulement 10 % de vrai dans cette affirmation audacieuse, Elhana
n'éprouverait pas le besoin de venir perdre son temps dans ce groupe de
discussion
Se tiu aplomba aserto nur estus 10-procente vera, Elhana ne sentus la bezonon
veni en ĉi tiun diskutgrupon por perdi sian tempon.
>
> But the matter at hand is:
>
(Oto Tekihaki:)
un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
Estas simple: por lerni la francan aŭ la anglan (tio, kio estas vera por
hungaro, ankaŭ estas tia por turko, ĉino, japano ktp, aŭ por infano lernanta
paroli) kaj atingi analogan nivelon de kapableco, la kvanto de memorigota materio estas inter dekoblo kaj dudekoblo de tiu necesa por lerni Esperanton.
Tre facile estas kontroli tion.
Petro (Il residente italiano).
...
>
> To be completely objective, nowadays each European whelp of 15 knows English at CAE-compatible level: it is educational standard. Our generations may be in a disadvantage here, but it is irrelevant.
>
n'éprouverait pas le besoin de venir perdre son temps dans ce groupe de
discussion
Se tiu aplomba aserto nur estus 10-procente vera, Elhana ne sentus la bezonon
veni en ĉi tiun diskutgrupon por perdi sian tempon.
>
> But the matter at hand is:
>
> > > Demandu vi mem hungarojn kial ili konsideras Esperanton de 5 al 10 foje pli facile lerneblan ol la anglan aŭ la francan.
> >
> > Who does consider? Why does he consider it so? Where does he consider it so?
C'est simple: pour apprendre le français ou l'anglais (ce qui est vrai pour
> >
> > Who does consider? Why does he consider it so? Where does he consider it so?
un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
Estas simple: por lerni la francan aŭ la anglan (tio, kio estas vera por
hungaro, ankaŭ estas tia por turko, ĉino, japano ktp, aŭ por infano lernanta
paroli) kaj atingi analogan nivelon de kapableco, la kvanto de memorigota materio estas inter dekoblo kaj dudekoblo de tiu necesa por lerni Esperanton.
Tre facile estas kontroli tion.
Petro (Il residente italiano).
LeviPetro
May 16, 2013, 8:05:12 AM5/16/13
to
Deux verbes français essentiels au présent de l'indicatif: "avoir" (havi)
et être (esti):
J'ai Je suis
tu as tu es
il a il est
nous avons nous sommes
vous avez vous êtes
ils ont ils sont
Soit 12 mots différents. C'est autant de mots à apprendre que la totalité
des terminaisons grammaticales de l'Esperanto.
Le tout à l'avenant.
Il residente italiano.
LeviPetro
May 16, 2013, 8:10:50 AM5/16/13
to
Le lundi 13 mai 2013 09:33:04 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
>
>
> No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle. Only what the elites will consider suitable will be retold in Esperanto and therefore publicly available.
C'est un rèsumé du dèlire malveillant d'Elhana, un concentré de mensonges.
>
>
> No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle. Only what the elites will consider suitable will be retold in Esperanto and therefore publicly available.
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 17, 2013, 4:20:42 AM5/17/13
to
LeviPetro:
> C'est simple: pour apprendre le français ou l'anglais (ce qui est vrai pour
> un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
> enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
> quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
> l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
This is a mechanistic definition of complexity, as if we were talking about a computer. But we talk about the human brain which store data differently.
Even with such estimation, please show us how the number of 10 has occurred comparing English and Esperanto.
>> No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle.
>
> C'est simple: pour apprendre le français ou l'anglais (ce qui est vrai pour
> un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
> enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
> quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
> l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
Even with such estimation, please show us how the number of 10 has occurred comparing English and Esperanto.
>> No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle.
>
> C'est un rèsumé du dèlire malveillant d'Elhana, un concentré de mensonges.
What do you call lies? The major point in Esperanto propaganda is to prohibit teaching English, German, French, Spanish in schools (as they are 'to difficult' and 'too expensive' and 'boosting foreign economics'). That is as brutalizing as it can get.
Elhana
May 17, 2013, 4:37:03 AM5/17/13
to
The entire English noun/the entire Esperanto noun:
bee bees (bee's bees') 4 forms
libro libroj libron librojn 4 forms;
Adjective:
cheap cheaper cheapest 3 forms
kara karaj karan karajn 4 forms;
Verb:
break breaks broke breaking broken 6 forms;
dawri dawras dawris dawros dawrus dawrita dawrito dawrata dawrato dawrota dawroto dawrinta dawrinte dawrinto dawranta dawrante dawranto dawronta dawronto dawronte 20 forms;
Adverb:
eagerly 1 form
supre supren 2 forms;
Pronouns:
Are too numerous to list, but Esperanto have 1,7 times more than English.
So where does an order of difference lay?
bee bees (bee's bees') 4 forms
libro libroj libron librojn 4 forms;
Adjective:
cheap cheaper cheapest 3 forms
kara karaj karan karajn 4 forms;
Verb:
break breaks broke breaking broken 6 forms;
dawri dawras dawris dawros dawrus dawrita dawrito dawrata dawrato dawrota dawroto dawrinta dawrinte dawrinto dawranta dawrante dawranto dawronta dawronto dawronte 20 forms;
Adverb:
eagerly 1 form
supre supren 2 forms;
Pronouns:
Are too numerous to list, but Esperanto have 1,7 times more than English.
So where does an order of difference lay?
LeviPetro
May 17, 2013, 7:19:06 AM5/17/13
to
Le vendredi 17 mai 2013 10:20:42 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > C'est simple: pour apprendre le français ou l'anglais (ce qui est vrai pour
> > un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
> > enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
> > quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
> > l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
>
> This is a mechanistic definition of complexity, as if we were talking about a computer. But we talk about the human brain which store data differently.
>
Grâce à cette complexité "mécanique", les espérantistes en sont à ergoter sur
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > C'est simple: pour apprendre le français ou l'anglais (ce qui est vrai pour
> > un Hongrois, l'est aussi pour un Turc, un Chinois, un Japonais, etc. ou un
> > enfant qui apprend à parler) et atteindre un niveau de capacité analogue, la
> > quantité de matière à mémoriser est de 10 à 20 fois celle nécessaire pour
> > l'Esperanto. C'est très facile à vérifier.
>
> This is a mechanistic definition of complexity, as if we were talking about a computer. But we talk about the human brain which store data differently.
>
les subtilités de l'Esperanto pendant que les élèves d'anglais en sont encore
à ânonner sur le début du commencement. Ce n'est pas à reprocher à l'anglais:
c'est pareil pour le français. Ces langues et les autres sont des chefs-d'oeuvre
bricolés par un nombre incalculable de générations mais n'ont pas été conçus
pour un usage international.
>
> Even with such estimation, please show us how the number of 10 has occurred comparing English and Esperanto.
>
moi qui ai dit 10. Moi, j'ai dit: au mons entre 10 et 20. J'ajoute que si
un même adulte a besoin d'un an pour apprendre l'Esperanto, il aura besoin
d'au moins 10 ou 20 ans pour apprendre une autre langue et il y a fort à
parier qu'il aura abandonné avant d'y arriver.
>
> >> No, Esperanto, with its prohibition of teaching the real languages, is intended to limit and totally control the field of information available for the cattle.
> > C'est un rèsumé du dèlire malveillant d'Elhana, un concentré de mensonges.
>
> What do you call lies? The major point in Esperanto propaganda is to prohibit teaching English, German, French, Spanish in schools (as they are 'to difficult' and 'too expensive' and 'boosting foreign economics'). That is as brutalizing as it can get.
d'enseigner l'Esperanto, et il y a eu des hommes politiques espérantistes
(par exemple le français Jean Zay, l'autrichien Jonas, le yougoslave Tito);
aucun de ceux-ci n'a tenté d'interdire quelque langue que ce soit. Quant
aux espérantistes ordinaires, qui sont tous au moins bilingues, la proportion
de polyglotes parmi eux est bien supérieure à celle du reste de la population.
Drôle de façon de pratiquer la prohibition des langues.
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 17, 2013, 8:08:53 AM5/17/13
to
LeviPetro:
> pour un usage international.
French is crap and by no means an international language (except the countries raped in both senses by French Empire/Republic during last centuries).
One should discuss the real candidates to that role.
> J'ajoute que si
> un même adulte a besoin d'un an pour apprendre l'Esperanto, il aura besoin
> d'au moins 10 ou 20 ans pour apprendre une autre langue...
Surprise: the curve of language acquisition is logarithmic and flattens immediately after _the basic_ level. So if we take persons who has some previous linguistic knowledge (but not of Western European languages), the results will be much closer together.
> Il y a eu des interdictions
> d'enseigner l'Esperanto, et il y a eu des hommes politiques espérantistes
Esperanto platform (proved with the [in]famous letter to Medvedev, other similar statements) follows:
* Teaching English (German etc.) in schools and universities is expensive (add optional politic BS here);
* Therefore _it must be stopped_ and children and students should be taught Esperanto *instead*.
How is that not a _ban_ of foreign languages? Students will have to resort to tutors and language schools, which is beyond an affordable limit of most.
> pour un usage international.
French is crap and by no means an international language (except the countries raped in both senses by French Empire/Republic during last centuries).
One should discuss the real candidates to that role.
> J'ajoute que si
> un même adulte a besoin d'un an pour apprendre l'Esperanto, il aura besoin
Surprise: the curve of language acquisition is logarithmic and flattens immediately after _the basic_ level. So if we take persons who has some previous linguistic knowledge (but not of Western European languages), the results will be much closer together.
> Il y a eu des interdictions
> d'enseigner l'Esperanto, et il y a eu des hommes politiques espérantistes
> aucun de ceux-ci n'a tenté d'interdire quelque langue que ce soit. Quant
Don't play stupid, please.
Esperanto platform (proved with the [in]famous letter to Medvedev, other similar statements) follows:
* Teaching English (German etc.) in schools and universities is expensive (add optional politic BS here);
* Therefore _it must be stopped_ and children and students should be taught Esperanto *instead*.
How is that not a _ban_ of foreign languages? Students will have to resort to tutors and language schools, which is beyond an affordable limit of most.
Oto Tekihaki
May 17, 2013, 10:09:01 AM5/17/13
to
Il giorno venerdì 17 maggio 2013 14:08:53 UTC+2, Elhana ha scritto:
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > pour un usage international.
>
>
>
> French is crap and by no means an international language (except the countries raped in both senses by French Empire/Republic during last centuries).
>
> One should discuss the real candidates to that role.
>
>
>
> > J'ajoute que si
>
> > un même adulte a besoin d'un an pour apprendre l'Esperanto, il aura besoin
>
> > d'au moins 10 ou 20 ans pour apprendre une autre langue...
>
>
>
> Surprise: the curve of language acquisition is logarithmic and flattens immediately after _the basic_ level. So if we take persons who has some previous linguistic knowledge (but not of Western European languages), the results will be much closer together.
>
>
>
> > Il y a eu des interdictions
>
> > d'enseigner l'Esperanto, et il y a eu des hommes politiques espérantistes
>
> > aucun de ceux-ci n'a tenté d'interdire quelque langue que ce soit. Quant
>
>
>
> Don't play stupid, please.
>
> Esperanto platform (proved with the [in]famous letter to Medvedev, other similar statements) follows:
>
>
>
> * Teaching English (German etc.) in schools and universities is expensive (add optional politic BS here);
>
> * Therefore _it must be stopped_ and children and students should be taught Esperanto *instead*.
Ĉu estas vere aŭ temas pri unu el viaj ŝercoj?
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > pour un usage international.
>
>
>
> French is crap and by no means an international language (except the countries raped in both senses by French Empire/Republic during last centuries).
>
> One should discuss the real candidates to that role.
>
>
>
> > J'ajoute que si
>
> > un même adulte a besoin d'un an pour apprendre l'Esperanto, il aura besoin
>
> > d'au moins 10 ou 20 ans pour apprendre une autre langue...
>
>
>
> Surprise: the curve of language acquisition is logarithmic and flattens immediately after _the basic_ level. So if we take persons who has some previous linguistic knowledge (but not of Western European languages), the results will be much closer together.
>
>
>
> > Il y a eu des interdictions
>
> > d'enseigner l'Esperanto, et il y a eu des hommes politiques espérantistes
>
> > aucun de ceux-ci n'a tenté d'interdire quelque langue que ce soit. Quant
>
>
>
> Don't play stupid, please.
>
> Esperanto platform (proved with the [in]famous letter to Medvedev, other similar statements) follows:
>
>
>
> * Teaching English (German etc.) in schools and universities is expensive (add optional politic BS here);
>
> * Therefore _it must be stopped_ and children and students should be taught Esperanto *instead*.
Mi neniam aŭdis pri tio. Tian proponon mi neniam subskribus. Se oni ne plu studas fremdajn lingvojn, kiel oni povas profiti pri la propedeŭtika valoro de Esperanto?
Oto
Elhana
May 17, 2013, 10:47:26 AM5/17/13
to
LeviPetro
May 17, 2013, 1:50:03 PM5/17/13
to
Le vendredi 17 mai 2013 10:37:03 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
> The entire English noun/the entire Esperanto noun:
>
> bee bees (bee's bees') 4 forms
Mais non: une seule forme. il suffit de savoir que "bee" est régulier.
> The entire English noun/the entire Esperanto noun:
>
> bee bees (bee's bees') 4 forms
>
> libro libroj libron librojn 4 forms;
des mots indépendants, les mêmes pour tous les sbstantifs, tous les
pluriels et tous les accusatifs. Il n'y a pas besoin de se demander si
"libr'" est régulier: il l'est forcément.
>
>
>
> Adjective:
>
>
>
> cheap cheaper cheapest 3 forms
Non: une seule forme. Il suffit de savoir que "cheap" n'est pas irrégulier.
>
>
> Adjective:
>
>
>
> cheap cheaper cheapest 3 forms
Les terminaisons "er" et "est" sont communes à tous les adjectifs réguliers
d'une seule syllabe.
>
> kara karaj karan karajn 4 forms;
accusatifs. Il n'y a pas d'adjectif irrégulier.
>
> Verb:
>
> break breaks broke breaking broken 6 forms; (En comptant comme vous je n'en
vois que 5)
Non, seulement 3 formes: break, broke, broken; les terminaisons de "breaks"
et "breaking" sont régulières, les mêmes pour tous les verbes.
>
>
>
> dawri dawras dawris dawros dawrus dawrita dawrito dawrata dawrato dawrota dawroto dawrinta dawrinte dawrinto dawranta dawrante dawranto dawronta dawronto dawronte 20 forms;
>
Bravo Elhana pour cette grossière caricature bien digne de vous.
>
>
> dawri dawras dawris dawros dawrus dawrita dawrito dawrata dawrato dawrota dawroto dawrinta dawrinte dawrinto dawranta dawrante dawranto dawronta dawronto dawronte 20 forms;
>
En fait, une seule forme: "daŭr'". Toutes les autres formes s'analysent en
mots indépendants, les mêmes pour tous les verbes. Il n'y en a pas d'irrégulier.
Bien entendu, on peut dresser un tableau équivalent pour tous les verbes anglais
réguliers, par exemple "to last":
to last, last(s), lasted, will or shall last, would or should last, having been lasted, someone having been lasted, being lasted, someone being lasted, going or having to be lasted, someone going or having to be lasted, having lasted, someone having lasted, lasting, someone lasting, having or going to last, someone having or going to last etc. (Il en manque pas mal.)
Il manque quand même le conditionnel; pour l'Esperanto c'est "daŭr'us",
et pour l'impératif c'est "daŭr'u".
>
> Adverb:
>
> eagerly 1 form entuziasm'e 1 forme: "entuziasm'"; la
terminaison "e" est un mot indépendant
caractéristique des adverbes.
>
> supre supren 2 forms; mal'supr'e, mal'supr'e'n
Non, seulement 1 forme: "supr'"; "e" est un mot indépendant (déjà vu)
caractéristique des adverbes; "n", déjà vu, est un mot indépendant,
caractéristique de l'accusatif. Cette terminaison de l'accusatif
indique aussi la direction: le préfixe "mal'" signifie contraire;
le substantif correspondant est "mal'o", (le) contraire.
>
> Pronouns:
>
>
>
> Are too numerous to list, but Esperanto have 1,7 times more than English.
>
On peut se limiter aux pronoms personnels:
> Pronouns:
>
>
>
> Are too numerous to list, but Esperanto have 1,7 times more than English.
>
mi ni
vi (ci, inusité) vi
li
ŝi ili oni si
ĝi
Pour les pronoms compléments: selon les besoins, on ajoute "n"
ou on emploie la préposition qui convient.
Pour les adjectifs et pronoms possessifs, on ajoute "a" des adjectifs (déjà vu)
et, selon les besoins "a", "j", "n" (déjà vus).
Soit un total de 10 mots nouveaux.
Anglais:
I me my mine myself
you (thou) you (thee) your (thy) yours (thine) yourself
he him his his himself
she her her hers herself
it it its its itself
we us our ours ourselves
you you your yours yourselves
they them their theirs themselves
Soit un total de 35 mots à apprendre.
>
> So where does an order of difference lay?
l'anglais, qui n'aurait aucun sens. Il s'agit seulement d'une
ébauche d'évaluation du nombre d'élémnts différents à memoriser,
sans jugement de valeur.
Pour ce qui est de l'Esperanto, nous avons fait le tour complet de
la partie morphologique de la grammaire.
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 17, 2013, 3:52:27 PM5/17/13
to
LeviPetro:
> Mais non: une seule forme: "libr'". Les terminaisons "o", "j", "n" sont
> des mots indépendants...
No, they are not. Learn what a 'word' is, and don't deny the evident.
It is well-known problem of Esperanto that with its very reach morphology the phoneme inventory is so limited that it is hard to tell them apart fast and sufficiently enough.
> Mais non: une seule forme: "libr'". Les terminaisons "o", "j", "n" sont
No, they are not. Learn what a 'word' is, and don't deny the evident.
It is well-known problem of Esperanto that with its very reach morphology the phoneme inventory is so limited that it is hard to tell them apart fast and sufficiently enough.
Elhana
May 18, 2013, 6:04:16 AM5/18/13
to
LeviPetro:
> Mais non: une seule forme: "libr'". Les terminaisons "o", "j", "n" sont
> des mots indépendants, les mêmes pour tous les sbstantifs, tous les
> pluriels et tous les accusatifs.
Why 'j' and 'n' are "independent words" and 's' isn't? What is the logic behind that distinction?
> Mais non: une seule forme: "libr'". Les terminaisons "o", "j", "n" sont
> des mots indépendants, les mêmes pour tous les sbstantifs, tous les
> pluriels et tous les accusatifs.
LeviPetro
May 18, 2013, 8:56:53 AM5/18/13
to
en anglais "is" n'est pas la 3-e personne du singulier du présent de
l'indicatif du verbe "to i". Vous en avez beaucoup d'autres, des questions
idiotes?
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 18, 2013, 3:00:16 PM5/18/13
to
LeviPetro:
> Evidemment, c'est une convention, de même nature que celle selon laquelle
> en anglais "is" n'est pas la 3-e personne du singulier du présent de
> l'indicatif du verbe "to i".
That is not related to my question. Why do you introduce a class of "words which cannot be used standalone" for Esperanto, but don't do that for English, for instance? That's sophistic.
> Evidemment, c'est une convention, de même nature que celle selon laquelle
> en anglais "is" n'est pas la 3-e personne du singulier du présent de
> l'indicatif du verbe "to i".
J-K Rinaldo
May 18, 2013, 3:07:54 PM5/18/13
to
On 18 Mag, 14:56, LeviPetro
1e - listano provokas anglalingve
2e - vi respondas franclingve
3e - kaj fine vi subskribas itallingve per ŝajna kromnomo kiu signifas
"la itala rezidanto"
Nu, demandon: Kial?
J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
> Evidemment, c'est une convention, de même nature que celle selon laquelle
> en anglais "is" n'est pas la 3-e personne du singulier du présent de
> l'indicatif du verbe "to i". Vous en avez beaucoup d'autres, des questions
> idiotes?
>
> Il residente italiano.
En ĉi esperantlingva diskutejo
> en anglais "is" n'est pas la 3-e personne du singulier du présent de
> l'indicatif du verbe "to i". Vous en avez beaucoup d'autres, des questions
> idiotes?
>
> Il residente italiano.
1e - listano provokas anglalingve
2e - vi respondas franclingve
3e - kaj fine vi subskribas itallingve per ŝajna kromnomo kiu signifas
"la itala rezidanto"
Nu, demandon: Kial?
J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
LeviPetro
May 18, 2013, 6:21:18 PM5/18/13
to
ĉar malbonintenca gasto observas nin. Ĝis baldaŭ.
LeviPetro
May 18, 2013, 6:39:18 PM5/18/13
to
Quant à moi je ne veux rien introduire du tout. C'est normal que vous n'y
compreniez rien: vous voudriez que l'Esperanto soit une langue ouest-européenne,
on vous dit qu'il ne l'est pas et maintenant vous venez pleurnicher que
quelque chose qui s'y trouve ne se trouve pas en anglais. Que voulez-vous
que ça nous fasse? Allez voir ailleurs si vous pouvez y trouver un public
plus à votre goût.
Il residente italiano.
AV3
May 18, 2013, 9:24:12 PM5/18/13
to
demandojn per sia fuŝangla, kaj Esperantistoj de tiu ĉi rondo respondas
al li en lingvo alia ol tiu de li proponita. Surprizas min kiel denaska
anglalingvano, ke multaj deĉifras tion, kiun li intencas esprimi sed
fuŝas. Ankaŭ surprizas min, ke iu ajn respondas al tia fuŝulo en iu ajn
lingvo.
--
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvi...@Wearthlink.net> ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvi...@Wearthlink.net> ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/ ||
|| Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
Elhana
May 18, 2013, 10:57:59 PM5/18/13
to
LeviPetro:
> ...vous voudriez que l'Esperanto soit une langue ouest-européenne,
> ...que quelque chose qui s'y trouve ne se trouve pas en anglais.
Esperanto has _nothing_ not found in English (except future participles, maybe). If you prefer to call grammar affixes 'words', it's your own craziness: they will not stop to be plain affixes like in each other Nostratic language.
> ...vous voudriez que l'Esperanto soit une langue ouest-européenne,
> on vous dit qu'il ne l'est pas
But it is.
> ...que quelque chose qui s'y trouve ne se trouve pas en anglais.
Esperanto has _nothing_ not found in English (except future participles, maybe). If you prefer to call grammar affixes 'words', it's your own craziness: they will not stop to be plain affixes like in each other Nostratic language.
Elhana
May 18, 2013, 11:06:11 PM5/18/13
to
AV3:
> al li en lingvo alia ol tiu de li proponita. Surprizas min kiel denaska
> anglalingvano, ke multaj deĉifras tion, kiun li intencas esprimi sed
> fuŝas.
You do understand everything. Don't be a clown.
> Ankaŭ surprizas min, ke iu ajn respondas al tia fuŝulo en iu ajn lingvo.
They just cannot express themselves in your Esperanto. It is normal to be butthurt due to your beloved French-Yiddish _surzhik_ hasn't get any traction despite all the coercing and lies; but one still has to behave decently.
> al li en lingvo alia ol tiu de li proponita. Surprizas min kiel denaska
> anglalingvano, ke multaj deĉifras tion, kiun li intencas esprimi sed
> fuŝas.
> Ankaŭ surprizas min, ke iu ajn respondas al tia fuŝulo en iu ajn lingvo.
Elhana
May 18, 2013, 11:13:34 PM5/18/13
to
LeviPetro:
> vous voudriez que l'Esperanto soit une langue ouest-européenne,
It even has a gender, which is the prominent feature of WE languages.
> vous voudriez que l'Esperanto soit une langue ouest-européenne,
J-K Rinaldo
May 19, 2013, 1:34:02 AM5/19/13
to
> > "la itala rezidanto"
>
> > Nu, demandon: Kial?
>
> > J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
>
> Tio estas bona demando, al kiu mi volonte respondos, sed prefere ne ĉi tie,
> ĉar malbonintenca gasto observas nin.
Tamen tion devus kompreni la tutaj listanoj... ĉi tie vi ne skribas
>
> > Nu, demandon: Kial?
>
> > J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
>
> Tio estas bona demando, al kiu mi volonte respondos, sed prefere ne ĉi tie,
> ĉar malbonintenca gasto observas nin.
nur al iu specifa gasto.
LeviPetro
May 20, 2013, 1:34:00 PM5/20/13
to
compagnon de secte a le secret.
Il residente italiano.
LeviPetro
May 20, 2013, 2:24:41 PM5/20/13
to
Le dimanche 19 mai 2013 07:34:02 UTC+2, J-K Rinaldo a écrit :
> > > "la itala rezidanto"
> >
> > > Nu, demandon: Kial?
> >
> > > J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
> >
> > Tio estas bona demando, al kiu mi volonte respondos, ...
> > > "la itala rezidanto"
> >
> > > Nu, demandon: Kial?
> >
> > > J-K Rinaldo el Padova.IT.EU
> >
>
> Tamen tion devus kompreni la tutaj listanoj... ĉi tie vi ne skribas
> nur al iu specifa gasto.
Bone, mi do respondos al vi ĉi tie.
> Tamen tion devus kompreni la tutaj listanoj... ĉi tie vi ne skribas
> nur al iu specifa gasto.
Mi ĉiam preferas esprimiĝi en Esperanto kaj uzas alian lingvon nur pro
specifa motivo.
Okazis, ke mi korektis eraron faritan de koncerna persono en ekzemplo,
kiun li tiris mise el la franca lingvo. Li reagis dirante, ke kiel
itala rezidanto mi estas aplomba diri al francoj, kiel ĉi tiuj devas
esprimiĝi en la franca. Li do volis humiligi min kiel _italon_ vivantan
en Francio. Tial mi decidis ekde tiam respondi al li nur en la franca. La
franca lingvo tiom ŝuldas al la itala lingvo, ke precipe italo plene
rajtas fiere diskuti pri faktoj de la franca lingvo kaj fari rimarkojn pri
eraroj faritaj de franclingvanoj en la franca lingvo.
Petro.
LeviPetro
May 20, 2013, 2:49:47 PM5/20/13
to
qu'au terme actuel de leur évolution les langues européennes modernes ont perdu
l'essentiel de leur caractère indo-européen. Cette polémique au sujet du caractère européen de l'Esperanto est donc sans objet.
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 20, 2013, 4:56:51 PM5/20/13
to
LeviPetro:
> Encore un de ces mensonges plus gros que lui dont notre indésirable
> compagnon de secte a le secret.
If a language has no gender, it doesn't distinguish between 'he' or 'she' or 'it'. Esperanto does.
> Encore un de ces mensonges plus gros que lui dont notre indésirable
> compagnon de secte a le secret.
indrik...@gmail.com
May 20, 2013, 8:11:14 PM5/20/13
to
On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:56:51 AM UTC+9, Elhana wrote:
> If a language has no gender, it doesn't distinguish between
> 'he' or 'she' or 'it'. Esperanto does.
"Modern English is not considered to have grammatical gender,
> If a language has no gender, it doesn't distinguish between
> 'he' or 'she' or 'it'. Esperanto does.
although Old English had it, and some remnants of a gender
system exist, such as the distinct personal pronouns he,
she and it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender
Klivo
LeviPetro
May 21, 2013, 6:23:05 AM5/21/13
to
table) et le "genre naturel" ou "sexe" (le garçon, la fille) et le contraste
paradoxal entre les deux: "CE soldat est UNE sentinelle." "CETTE candidate
est UN cordon bleu."
Comme l'anglais (sauf en ce qui concerne les navires), l'Esperanto ne distingue
pas de genre grammatical mais seulement le genre naturel, ce qui est bien
naturel. En tant que pédéraste autoproclamé, il serait assez naturel que notre
indésirable compagnon de secte ne distingue ni l'un ni l'autre.
Il residente italiano.
Elhana
May 21, 2013, 7:03:14 AM5/21/13
to
LeviPetro:
> ...l'Esperanto ne distingue
Also, why does Esperanto verb have a number category in passive voice? Verbs having gender/number forms in their paradigms are also a hallmark of Western or Semitic languages.
> ...l'Esperanto ne distingue
> pas de genre grammatical mais seulement le genre naturel
Any language which has morphological means to reflect sex, has grammar gender. In Esperanto, in addition to he/she/it, there is a feminine suffix which can be applied to nouns which have no biological sex.
Also, why does Esperanto verb have a number category in passive voice? Verbs having gender/number forms in their paradigms are also a hallmark of Western or Semitic languages.
LeviPetro
May 21, 2013, 10:03:48 AM5/21/13
to
Le mardi 21 mai 2013 13:03:14 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > ...l'Esperanto ne distingue
>
> > pas de genre grammatical mais seulement le genre naturel, c'est-à-dire
> LeviPetro:
>
>
>
> > ...l'Esperanto ne distingue
>
le sexe.
>
> Any language which has morphological means to reflect sex, has grammar gender. In Esperanto, in addition to he/she/it, there is a feminine suffix which can be applied to nouns which have no biological sex.
>
En Esperanto il n'existe pas de moyens grammaticaux morphologiques: tout est
> Any language which has morphological means to reflect sex, has grammar gender. In Esperanto, in addition to he/she/it, there is a feminine suffix which can be applied to nouns which have no biological sex.
>
dans le lexique; mais c'est un fait que notre indésirable compagnon de secte ne
veut pas ou est incapable de comprendre. "Ino", "li", "ŝi", "ĝi" sont des
mots distincts. Ce ne sont pas des éléments morphologiques. Il en est d'ailleurs
de même en anglais: he, him, his, she, her, it, its sont des mots distincts.
> Also, why does Esperanto verb have a number category in passive voice? Verbs having gender/number forms in their paradigms are also a hallmark of Western or Semitic languages.
mauvaise volonté. La grammaire de l'Esperanto peut être décrite par
paradigmes pour être comprise par des européens, mais elle s'analyse par
des mots indépendants.
Il residente italiano.
LeviPetro
May 21, 2013, 1:26:07 PM5/21/13
to
Le mardi 21 mai 2013 13:03:14 UTC+2, Elhana a écrit :
> LeviPetro:
>
>
> LeviPetro:
>
>
> In Esperanto, in addition to he/she/it, there is a feminine suffix which can be applied to nouns which have no biological sex.
>
Dans toutes les langues, on peut aussi faire des phrases qui n'ont pas de sens.
>
Il residente italiano.
Oto Tekihaki
May 24, 2013, 1:43:06 PM5/24/13
to
Il giorno mercoledì 15 maggio 2013 14:12:17 UTC+2, Elhana ha scritto:
> indrik...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
> > By a couple centuries, you mean 12 centuries, of course.
>
>
>
> In XIII century the Latin had already degenerated enough so its use as a language became impossible. Its sphere was limited to typical SL use. But even then it lasted for about 5 centuries only.
Al mi ŝajnas ke via aserto ne estas ekzakta. Bonvolu legi la suban tekston:
Angelos TSIRIMOKOS skribis: ( el Bruselo)
"Mi memoras jenon: Mi ie audis (au legis), ke la latina iam estis oficiala
lingvo en Hungario. (La latina estis uzata ne en normalaj interparoladoj,
sed ekz. en la parlamento.)
Estis - ghis proks. 1830. Mi iom miras pri tio, ke la nobeloj, tiam konsistigantaj la Parlamenton, regis la latinan sufiche bone por povi diskuti en ghi, sed ghi estas historia fakto. Ech, kiam ekuzighis tie la hungara, alietnaj parlamentanoj protestis, char ili sin sentis (prave) diskriminaciataj!"
---
Oto
> indrik...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
> > By a couple centuries, you mean 12 centuries, of course.
>
>
>
> In XIII century the Latin had already degenerated enough so its use as a language became impossible. Its sphere was limited to typical SL use. But even then it lasted for about 5 centuries only.
Al mi ŝajnas ke via aserto ne estas ekzakta. Bonvolu legi la suban tekston:
Angelos TSIRIMOKOS skribis: ( el Bruselo)
"Mi memoras jenon: Mi ie audis (au legis), ke la latina iam estis oficiala
lingvo en Hungario. (La latina estis uzata ne en normalaj interparoladoj,
sed ekz. en la parlamento.)
Estis - ghis proks. 1830. Mi iom miras pri tio, ke la nobeloj, tiam konsistigantaj la Parlamenton, regis la latinan sufiche bone por povi diskuti en ghi, sed ghi estas historia fakto. Ech, kiam ekuzighis tie la hungara, alietnaj parlamentanoj protestis, char ili sin sentis (prave) diskriminaciataj!"
---
Oto
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