Voice Recorder Transcript for EgyptAir Flt. 990
Tamer Abdelgawad
Thought you might be interested in this. Sadly, it doesn't leave much
doubt in my mind about what happened, despite what the Egyptian
authorities say.
[Quoted without permission from clari.world.mideast.egypt]
WASHINGTON, Aug 13 (AFP) - A reconstruction of the final minutes
of the fatal EgyptAir Flight 990, which crashed into the sea on
October 31 last year, killing all 217 people on board.
US investigators have yet to announce any official conclusions
drawn from the cockpit and flight data recorders as to the causes of
the crash.
The Boeing 767 took off at 1.19 a.m. from New York to Cairo. It
crashed 29 minutes and 50 seconds later, killing all on board.
Data copied from official transcripts of the contents of the
Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder was released by the
US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Friday, as part of a
preliminary factual report into the crash.
The information in CAPITAL letters refers to data from the
Flight Data Recorder; the comments in quotation marks, translated by
the NTSB into English from Arabic, come from the Cockpit Voice
Recorder:
01.48:03: Flight 990 is cruising at an altitude of 10,000 meters
(33,000 feet) over the Atlantic Ocean. Flight captain Ahmed
al-Habashi tells first officer Gamil al-Battuti he is going for "a
quick trip" to the rest room.
01.48:08: first officer: "Please, go ahead."
:18: sound of door (Gamil El-Battouti is alone in the
cockpit)
:39: first officer: "I rely on God"
01:49:45: AUTOMATIC PILOT DISENGAGED MANUALLY
:48: first officer: "I rely on God"
:52: THRUST THROTTLE LEVER RETARDED TO IDLE
:53: AIRCRAFT BEGINS A 40-DEGREE ANGLE DIVE TOWARDS THE
OCEAN
:57: first officer: "I rely on God"
:58: first officer: "I rely on God" (LOW-HIGH TONES OF THE
AURAL MASTER WARNING)
01:50:00: first officer: "I rely on God"
:01: first officer: "I rely on God"
:02: first officer: "I rely on God"
:04: first officer: "I rely on God"
:05: first officer: "I rely on God"
:06: flight captain (returning to cockpit): "What's
happening? What's happening?"
:07: first officer: "I rely on God"
:08: TONES OF AURAL MASTER CAUTION
: first officer: "I rely on God"
: flight captain: "What's happening?"
:15: flight captain: "What's happening, Gamil? What's
happening?"
:19: TONES OF AURAL WARNING
:21: RIGHT ENGINE START LEVER MANUALLY SWITCHED FROM "RUN"
TO "CUTOFF" POSITION
:22: LEFT ENGINE START LEVER MANUALLY SWITCHED FROM "RUN"
TO "CUTOFF" POSITION
: ELEVATORS SPLIT IN OPPOSITE DIRECTION (these surface
controls, located on the tail of the airplane, command the up or
down movement of the aircraft's nose. They normally move
simultaneously in the same direction.
Experts argue this could indicate a struggle for control of the
aircraft, with the flight captain pulling the control column up and
the first officer pushing the column forward.
EgyptAir officials have said the split could have been caused by
the shock wave caused by the speed the aircraft was diving at, which
was close to Mach 1.
:24: flight captain: "What is this? What is this? Did you
shut the engine?"
:26: flight captain: "Get away in the engines" (Eds: sic)
:28: flight captain: "Shut the engines"
:29: first officer: "It's shut"
:31: flight captain: "Pull"
:32: flight captain: "Pull with me"
:34: flight captain: "Pull with me"
:36: flight captain: "Pull with me"
[end quote]
--
Tamer Abdelgawad
"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction
to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."
-- Bill Watterson (as Calvin)
Lukeobe
wrote in article><39975DA7...@yahoo.com>
>Hello Folks:
Hey, long time no see. How is your summer? And where have you been?
>Thought you might be interested in this
Very good article indeed.
>Sadly, it doesn't leave much
>doubt in my mind about what happened,
Or in my mind either.
> despite what the Egyptian
>authorities say.
And it makes you wonder: Are they in denial? Or are they clueless? or are they
trying to decieve the world in general, and the families of the victims in
particular?
I suspect it is all of the above.
I do believe that Egyptair stands to lose billions of dollars in legal fees and
financial compensation to the families of the victims, if they do not settle
now.
Remember : Just a few months ago, the family of a Syrian man who lived in New
Jersey filed a lawsuit against Egyptair in the amount of 50 million dollars.The
case is still pending.
If you did check the website of Egyptair about the time of the accident, you
would have noticed that they braged about the fact the the company is worth 12
billion dollars.I could not believe it, because they were asking for trouble
in the case of a claim(s) against them.
Now we have 216 victims, and if you divide 12 billions by 216 ( this would be
enough to give each family about 55 million dollars, not very far from the
amount claimed by the family of the Syrian man), we must come to the conclusion
that these claims will bankrupt the company. We must not forget that insurance
companies will pay only a small part of the claims, and Egyptair has to cough
up the balance, which still will be substantial.
Having said the above:
1. I would not hesitate to fly on Egypt air. It is a vey good airline. I would
wish that there will no smoking on their flights. But I guess nobody is
perfect.
2. I also wish that we Egyptians admit that suicide is a mental disease, in
most cases secondary to depression or psychosis, that religious prohibition
against suicide, be it by Mulsims or Copts in Egypt, is anti-reason and
anti-human. Egyptair needs to identify mental illness among its employees, and
get those employees treated if needed .
3. My heart goes to the families of the victims, and they must get every penny
they deserve.And lots of it.
4. My heart also goes to Mr. Al Batoti. I do not know what made him committ
this horrible act. And I guess we will never find out.
5. I also would urge his foolish son to stop telling the media how much his
father was worth, in terms of money and wealth. I do not think that he gets it
that lawyers read this stuff ( Remember: deep pockets) and that it is a matter
of time that some smart lawyer will sue his father's estate.
6. Could this tragedy have been prevented? Yes and no.
a) Yes:
Through proper psychological screening of _ALL_ airlines employees. And prompt
treatment of any evidence of mental illness.
b) No:
I guess it could have happened on any other airline. It is what is called the
human factor. People could snap and go crazy any time. And there is nothing we
can do about it. It is a chance that we all take when we fly, or even when we
get in a car for this matter.
7. I would urge Egyptair to minimize their loss, and settle the claims in a
generous manner with the families of the victims, but never admit any
liability. They must do it fast.
>[Quoted without permission from clari.world.mideast.egypt]
I would not worry about this.
>Tamer
It is good to have you back.
Luke
Tamer Abdelgawad
>
> > Tamer Abdelgawad tabde...@yahoo.com
>
> wrote in article><39975DA7...@yahoo.com>
>
> >Hello Folks:
>
> Hey, long time no see. How is your summer? And where have you been?
Hey Luke: Summer is fine (or what passes for summer in Rochester, NY
:-)). I've been around, mostly, but I do take breaks from SCE every
once in a while. It can be quite exhausting, you know :-)
[snip ...]
> > despite what the Egyptian
> >authorities say.
>
> And it makes you wonder: Are they in denial? Or are they clueless? or are they
> trying to decieve the world in general, and the families of the victims in
> particular?
>
> I suspect it is all of the above.
I think they have a single goal in mind: Keep it as low-key as
possible. Egyptair/Egyptian Consulate have retained the services of
some American law/media guy to be a spokesman for them here in the US.
A smart move. They also have a valid reason for complaining about the
leaks preceding the release of the official report and the allegations
of sexual misconduct by Battooti.
On the other hand, I think the Voice Recorder transcript speaks for
itself, and the Egyptian Authorities (and Egyptians!) will have no
choice but to stop denying the obvious.
> I do believe that Egyptair stands to lose billions of dollars in legal fees and
> financial compensation to the families of the victims, if they do not settle
> now.
[snip ...]
I'm not sure about this. Of course, anything can happen in the American
court system, but EgyptAir should only be held liable for Battooti's
alleged behavior if there was a serious screening lapse on their part.
From what we know (which is not much), no one had any reason to suspect
Battooti of being mentally imbalanced or suicidal.
> 6. Could this tragedy have been prevented? Yes and no.
> a) Yes:
>
> Through proper psychological screening of _ALL_ airlines employees. And prompt
> treatment of any evidence of mental illness.
[snip ...]
This is the heart of the issue IMO. Could Battooti's alleged behavior
have been screened? I'm guessing Egyptair will continue to deny the
suicide theory as a first line of defense against any liability
lawsuits.
> It is good to have you back.
Thanks :-)
Lukeobe
wrote in article><39984AF5...@yahoo.com>
>Hey Luke: Summer is fine (or what passes for summer in Rochester, NY
>:-)).
I know what you mean. I had a great time in LA. Not a bad summer.
> I've been around, mostly, but I do take breaks from SCE every
>once in a while. It can be quite exhausting, you know
Same. However, I will be going back to school in about two weeks, my last
year...yeah...., and I will have to take a break from this NG for sometime.
[snip...
>I think they have a single goal in mind: Keep it as low-key as
>possible.
Very true, and very wise.
> Egyptair/Egyptian Consulate have retained the services of
>some American law/media guy to be a spokesman for them here in the US.
>A smart move.
A very good move indeed.
> They also have a valid reason for complaining about the
>leaks preceding the release of the official report and the allegations
>of sexual misconduct by Battooti.
This in neither here nor there. Do'nt forget that if this tragic case goes to
court, leaks about the report and about Mr. Batoti's sexual escapades are very
irrelevant. The jury, and I have no dout in my mind, could award the families
of the victims billions of dollars.
>On the other hand, I think the Voice Recorder transcript speaks for
>itself, and the Egyptian Authorities (and Egyptians!) will have no
>choice but to stop denying the obvious.
Now let us go back one step: Because the flight originated here in the US,
albeit the crash took place over international waters, it is still within
the jurisdiction of the US legal system .
Mr. Batoti was employed by Egyptair, therefore, Egyptair is liable, he is
liable as per tape, and the captain of the plane is also liable for dereliction
of his duties. The deep pockets are Egyptair and if I believe Mr. Batoti's son,
Mr.Batoti's estate, and the Captain's estate too.
Now with the voice recorder transcript, the lawyers and the families have a
very good case. And Egyptair must admit the obvious.
[snip....
> Of course, anything can happen in the American
>court system,
Amen.
>but EgyptAir should only be held liable for Battooti's
>alleged behavior if there was a serious screening lapse on their part.
I must disagree with you. Egyptair is liable. Period.
The ABC of American law is that the employer is legally liable for errors,
mistakes, crimes, etc...committed by his employees against their customers
_while on the job_, which makes Egyptair liable because of the Captain's
dereliction of his duties, and Mr. Batoti's devastating tape.
>From what we know (which is not much), no one had any reason to suspect
>Battooti of being mentally imbalanced or suicidal.
In a court of law here in the US, this will get Egyptair no where. It is their
duty as a company to screen their employees, inorder to provide Egyptair's
passangers with a safe flight. This can only be viewed in a court of law as
negligence by Egyptair. So the fact that no one suspected that he suffered from
mental disease is irrelevant. He did it as per tape.
>> 6. Could this tragedy have been prevented? Yes and no.
>> a) Yes:
>>
>> Through proper psychological screening of _ALL_ airlines employees. And
>prompt
>> treatment of any evidence of mental illness.
>
>[snip ...]
>
>This is the heart of the issue IMO. Could Battooti's alleged behavior
>have been screened? I'm guessing Egyptair will continue to deny the
>suicide theory as a first line of defense against any liability
>lawsuits.
I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but there must be a set of tests that
airline employees are subjected too, including psychological testing.
I think it will be interesting to see if Mr. Al Batoti undergone psychological
testing or not, and what were the results.
However, a smart lawyer will tell you, that even if Batoti is not found
responsible for the crash, which I dout very much, Egyptair still has to deal
with the Captain's dereliction of his duties by leaving the cockpit in the
hands of Mr. batoti who was not scheduled to fly. Oh no we have not seen the
end of it.
>Tamer
Luke
red_sea
right before the dive. Here is the whole transcript:
Cockpit Transcript from EgyptAir
The Associated Press
Aug 11 2000 6:10PM ET
Transcript of EgyptAir Flight 990 cockpit voice recorder in final
minutes before the Boeing 767 plunged into the Atlantic Ocean off
Nantucket on Oct. 31, as released Friday by the National
Transportation Safety Board:
Capt. Gameel El-Batouty (co-pilot of relief crew): Look, here's
the new first officer's pen. Give it to him please. God spare
you.
Unidentified voice: Yeah.
El Batouty: To make sure it doesn't get lost.
Capt. Mahmoud el-Habashy (pilot in command of departure crew):
Excuse me, Jimmy, while I take a quick trip to the toilet ...
(sound similar to cockpit door operating).
El-Batouty: Go ahead please.
El-Habashy: Before it gets crowded. While they are eating, and
I'll be back to you. (sound similar to cockpit door operating,
then several clicks and thumps).
Unidentified voice: Control it. (Arabic translators believe that
they heard words similar to this; one English analyst believes
that he heard a word similar to ``hydraulic''; other words were
unintelligible.)
El-Batouty: I rely on God. (long series of thumps and clicks). I
rely on God. (one loud thump and three faint thumps). I rely on
God. I rely on God. (four tones similar to Master Caution aural
beeper). I rely on God. I rely on God. I rely on God. I rely on
God. (sound of loud thump). I rely on God.
El-Habashy: What's happening? What's happening?
El-Batouty: I rely on God. (sound of numerous thumps and clicks
continue for approximately 15 seconds; repeating tone similar to
Master Warning aural beeper starts and continues to end of
recording). I rely on God.
El-Habashy: What's happening? What's happening, Gamil? What's
happening? What is this? What is this? Did you shut the
engine(s)? Get away in the engines. Shut the engines.
El Batouty: It's shut.
El-Habashy: Pull. Pull with me. Pull with me. Pull with me.
(end of recording)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
red_sea
at first, it doesn't make sense if you consider the whole
picture. A complete sudden snap that makes a person go banana
like that is not really convincing, as if he was suddenly
possessed by the devil, a devil that says "I rely on God"!?!? He
had a family that loved him and was waiting for him, and even if
he was suicidal, why kill 217 innocent people with him,
especially that he was aware that he is meeting his Lord?!
Even the FBI reports that claims that the first pilot had some
"lewd acts" in the airport hotel shows that the guy had a love
for life, sort of a Clinton-Type personality. We don't see
Clinton crashing America, do we? In fact, the guy is very well
balanced.
The psychiatric that examined the transcript of the first pilot
said that the way he talked minutes before the crash doesn't fit
the profile of a suicidal person. Something obviously happened in
the plane right before Batouty decided to make the dive (note the
"Unidentified voice" with "unintelligible words"). And it seems
that both the captain and the first pilot agreed on shutting off
the engines as the best solution. So the explanation of the
Austrians about the stabilizer makes more sense to me, but
first the TWA and then EgyptAir, and before that was the Taiwan
crash, is too much for Boeing to handle, and perhaps national
pride is clouding the investigation also.
Lukeobe
wrote in article><0212d873...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com>
>I don't buy the suicide theory. Although it is not unreasonable
>at first,
I would not blame you for your healthy douts.
>it doesn't make sense if you consider the whole
>picture.
Therefore, you do not believe that Mr. Al Batoti is responsible for the plane
crash? Just forget the suicide thing for a minute. Your answer is?
I must also add here that the captain is just as guilty for leaving the
cockpit and the navigation of the palne in the hands of Mr. Al Batoti.
Although he( Mr. al Batoti) is a pilot, he was not supposed to be flying
this plane.
This alone makes Egyptair liable for the crash.
Get it?
>A complete sudden snap that makes a person go banana
>like that is not really convincing,
Unless you are a psychiatrist you cannot say such a thing sir. I'm not one, but
I believe that people can go crazy in no time and committ horrible acts .
>as if he was suddenly
>possessed by the devil, a devil that says "I rely on God"!?!?
Sir: There is no such a thing as the devil. At least in a court of law. So
you must come up with more rational answer than this.
>He
>had a family that loved him and was waiting for him, and even if
>he was suicidal,
This does not stop people from committing suicide. You need to read Mary Monk's
"suicide" You will know that more older males try to take their lives away in
more violent ways, and succeed, than any other group. And many of them have
loving wives and families. How do you explain this?
> why kill 217 innocent people with him,
>especially that he was aware that he is meeting his Lord?!
This is what the rational mind will say, but the reality is different. I
believe that Monk defines suicide as anger and violence turned inwards. In
other words, something snapped in his mind, that we will never find out, and
felt that this was the moment for him to kill himself, for whatever reason, but
the sad part is he was able to take his life away and the lives of 216 victims
with him. Very sad indeed.
>Even the FBI reports that claims that the first pilot had some
>"lewd acts" in the airport hotel shows that the guy had a love
>for life,
Or may be he wanted to be caught for whatever reason.
Remember: "Get a room"?
>sort of a Clinton-Type personality. We don't see
>Clinton crashing America, do we? In fact, the guy is very well
>balanced.
Clinton was not very smart for doing this in the White House. I also happen to
believe that may be he wanted to be caught. Which he was.
>"lewd acts"
Well, it is bad that Mr. Al Batoti most likely did not know that most of these
"lewd acts" in bathrooms or whatever are thrown out of court. But I suspect
that it might have played a part in his "acute" decision to take his life away.
Having said this, I do believe that whatever happened or not in that hotel will
be irrelevant in court.
>The psychiatric that examined the transcript of the first pilot
>said that the way he talked minutes before the crash doesn't fit
>the profile of a suicidal person
I though that you cannot label a patient as being suicidal unless the patient
makes it clear that he intends to hurt him/her self. And from the tape one can
only say that Mr. al Batoti never said any thing about wanting to committ
suicide. It does not mean that de did not committ suicide. Big difference
.>Something obviously happened in
>the plane right before Batouty decided to make the dive (note the
>"Unidentified voice" with "unintelligible words").
And that something is?
>And it seems
>that both the captain and the first pilot agreed on shutting off
>the engines as the best solution. So the explanation of the
>Austrians about the stabilizer makes more sense to me, but
>first the TWA and then EgyptAir, and before that was the Taiwan
>crash, is too much for Boeing to handle
Ah...I knew you were heading in this direction.
Sir: Boeing has a very big stake in this matter, and it is very important for
them to know what happened, remeber: "What really happened?" The truth..
As far as I know, the folks at Boeing believe that Al Batoti did it.
Did you notice that there is something missing in your article?
The victims and their families. Very sad.
Luke
Tamer Abdelgawad
[snip ...]
> >but EgyptAir should only be held liable for Battooti's
> >alleged behavior if there was a serious screening lapse on their part.
>
> I must disagree with you. Egyptair is liable. Period.
>
> The ABC of American law is that the employer is legally liable for errors,
> mistakes, crimes, etc...committed by his employees against their customers
> _while on the job_, which makes Egyptair liable because of the Captain's
> dereliction of his duties, and Mr. Batoti's devastating tape.
Are you sure crimes are included in this list? Is the post office
liable if a mailman 'goes postal'?
As for dereliction of duty, I doubt airline regulations prevent a
Captain from going to the bathroom while on duty (especially since the
first officer was in the cockpit). We certainly haven't heard any
complaints to that effect from *any* of the parties involved even though
it is well-established that the captain left the cockpit.
> >From what we know (which is not much), no one had any reason to suspect
> >Battooti of being mentally imbalanced or suicidal.
>
> In a court of law here in the US, this will get Egyptair no where. It is their
> duty as a company to screen their employees, inorder to provide Egyptair's
> passangers with a safe flight. This can only be viewed in a court of law as
> negligence by Egyptair. So the fact that no one suspected that he suffered from
> mental disease is irrelevant. He did it as per tape.
It is only negligence if EgyptAir *could* have screened him but didn't.
There's absolutely no evidence that anybody *could* have
screened/predicted his alleged behavior.
> >> 6. Could this tragedy have been prevented? Yes and no.
> >> a) Yes:
> >>
> >> Through proper psychological screening of _ALL_ airlines employees. And
> >prompt
> >> treatment of any evidence of mental illness.
> >
> >[snip ...]
> >
> >This is the heart of the issue IMO. Could Battooti's alleged behavior
> >have been screened? I'm guessing Egyptair will continue to deny the
> >suicide theory as a first line of defense against any liability
> >lawsuits.
>
> I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but there must be a set of tests that
> airline employees are subjected too, including psychological testing.
>
> I think it will be interesting to see if Mr. Al Batoti undergone psychological
> testing or not, and what were the results.
[snip ...]
I agree. But if EgyptAir had adhered to whatever testing requirements
exist, and didn't find anything wrong with him, I can't see how they
could be held legally liable.
red...@my-deja.com
luk...@aol.com (Lukeobe) wrote:
> You need to read Mary Monk's "suicide" You will know
I looked for "Mary Monk" on Amazon and Barnes&Nobles, but I found
nothing about her. Is she your aunt or something?
But it is my fault, because I was replying to the initiater of this
thread not to you, but it accidently came as a reply to you. Sorry.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Lukeobe
>Date: 8/16/00 10:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time
wrote in article ><8ne92t$rb5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>> You need to read Mary Monk's "suicide" You will know
>
>I looked for "Mary Monk" on Amazon and Barnes&Nobles, but I found
>nothing about her.
Mary Monk is a professor of Public Health at Johns Hopkins school of Public
Health, Dept of Epidemiology.
( Webster defines Epidemiology as : The branch of medicine that studies
epidemics and epidemic diseases)
You can look up her excellent work on the Epidemiology of "Suicide" in:
Maxcy-Roseneau, Public Health and Preventive Medicine. John M. Last
Published by Appelton-Century-Crofts/Norwalk, Conn. pages 1385-1396
Great source for understanding suicide for a non- medical person like my self.
You can also look up the American Psychiatric association manual for
Psychiatric illnesses. This one was more technical for me.
I found these great references in my school library.
Go and read , and then let us talk.
>Is she your aunt
No she is not. She is not an Obied. Is she your aunt?
> something
Or something.
>But it is my fault, because I was replying to the initiater of this
>thread not to you, but it accidently came as a reply to you. Sorry.
>
Sir: If you wish to participate in this forum, any and all can reply to your
articles, however, it is you that can select what to reply to or not.
Grow up sir.
Lukeobe
wrote in article><399A0FE9...@yahoo.com>
>> >Tamer Abdelgawad tabde...@yahoo.com
>
>[snip ...]
>
>> >but EgyptAir should only be held liable for Battooti's
>> >alleged behavior if there was a serious screening lapse on their part.
>>
>> I must disagree with you. Egyptair is liable. Period.
>>
>> The ABC of American law is that the employer is legally liable for errors,
>> mistakes, crimes, etc...committed by his employees against their customers
>> _while on the job_, which makes Egyptair liable because of the Captain's
>> dereliction of his duties, and Mr. Batoti's devastating tape.
>Are you sure crimes are included in this list
Yes sir. It is the responsibility of the employer/owner to keep the work place
safe for _BOTH_ employees and customers. Crimes are very much included here.
>Is the post office
>liable if a mailman 'goes postal'?
This is a bit complicated. Could you be more specific? As in when and where did
the mailman go postal.
>As for dereliction of duty, I doubt airline regulations prevent a
>Captain from going to the bathroom while on duty (especially since the
>first officer was in the cockpit).
I do not think that you understood what I wrote: Yes the captain can go to the
bathroom, but the plane should be navigated by the first officer until he is
back in the cockpit.
Mr. Al Batoti is a pilot. However, he was on board as a passenger, and not a
pilot. Suppose he did not catch that flight, I suspect that the captain would
have gone to the bathroom, and the first officer would have been in charge, and
there will be no crash.
Plus how can the captain be sure, let us say, that Mr. al Batoti did not take
some medicine eg: codeine, some anti-histamine or cough medicine that could
affect his ability to navigate a plane. The captain made a serious and fatal
error by allowing him to navigate the plane, when he was not supposed to.
> We certainly haven't heard any
>complaints to that effect from *any* of the parties involved even though
>it is well-established that the captain left the cockpit.
Very true. But I'm curious to see what the family of the Syrian man from NJ had
in their claim as defendants.And I bet you a buck that the captain's estate
will somehow be included.
Trust me a good lawyer will see it.
May be I should go back one step:
1. The plane's manufacturer is Boeing.
2. The plane is owned and operated by Egyptair.
3. We have this tape.
4. We have Mr. Al Batoti that is a suspect as per the tape.
5. We have the captain who left the cockpit in the hands of Mr. Al Batoti, who
is a pilot, but was not supposed to navigate this doomed plane. Period. He
could have given the command to his first officer.
Now, do you remeber when you evaluate quality assurance, you check:
a. Enterance.
b. Structure.
c. Exit.
Mr. Al Batoti is a pilot, therefore he can fly ( enterance)
Pilots are assigned to specific flights. Mr Al Batoti was not assigned to this
flight, nontheless he was allowed by the captain to navigate the plane. (
structure)
The plane crashed and loss of life(exit)
Egyptair flunks the test of quality assurance on two accounts.
Now we get to the deep pockets and they are :
1. Boeing.
2. Egyptair
3. Mr. al Batoti's estate.
4. The captain's estate.
You would agree with me that for all intents and purposes 1. and 2. are where
the money is.
So what should a good lawyer do?
He/she should sue all four.
The sad thing is there was an article in yesterday's NYT where the families of
the crew members are suing only Boeing. This IMO is legal malpractice.Stay
tuned.
> >From what we know (which is not much), no one had any reason to suspect
>> >Battooti of being mentally imbalanced or suicidal.
>>
>> In a court of law here in the US, this will get Egyptair no where. It is
>their
>> duty as a company to screen their employees, inorder to provide Egyptair's
>> passangers with a safe flight. This can only be viewed in a court of law
>as
>> negligence by Egyptair. So the fact that no one suspected that he suffered
>from
>> mental disease is irrelevant. He did it as per tape.
>
>It is only negligence if EgyptAir *could* have screened him but didn't.
>There's absolutely no evidence that anybody *could* have
>screened/predicted his alleged behavior.
Not true. Remember: QA ...structure...and exit. They flunked both. These people
died.It is the ultimate test.
>> I think it will be interesting to see if Mr. Al Batoti undergone
>psychological
>> testing or not, and what were the results.
>
>[snip ...]
>
>I agree. But if EgyptAir had adhered to whatever testing requirements
>exist, and didn't find anything wrong with him
I would love to see what Egyptair have on file about Mr. al Batoti's health. I
have not seen any thing that you can sink your teeth in.
>I can't see how they
>could be held legally liable.
See above. I wish that Egyptair can stop their nonsense and face their
responsibilty, and pay the families of the victims.
I also wish that we Egyptians understand that suicide is a serious problem,
that religious prohibitions on suicide, by both Muslims and Copts, are very
much anti-reason, and anti-human. If we Egyptians understand that people do
committ suicide, that religious stigma is very foolish, we would have IMO
seen an end to this sick denial.
>Tamer
Luke
Aktham M Abdellatief
Tamer Abdelgawad wrote:
>>> >but EgyptAir should only be held liable for Battooti's
>>> >alleged behavior if there was a serious screening lapse on their part.
>>>
To which Lukeobe answered:
>>> I must disagree with you. Egyptair is liable. Period.
>>>
>>> The ABC of American law is that the employer is legally liable for
errors,
>>> mistakes, crimes, etc...committed by his employees against their
customers
>>> _while on the job_, which makes Egyptair liable because of the Captain's
>>> dereliction of his duties, and Mr. Batoti's devastating tape.
>
Tamer Abdelgawad asked:
>>Are you sure crimes are included in this list
>
Lukeobe answered:
>Yes sir. It is the responsibility of the employer/owner to keep the work
place
>safe for _BOTH_ employees and customers. Crimes are very much included
here.
>
Now I (Aktham) ask:
What is the extent to which this employer/owner must go before he is
shielded from being liable. It seems to me that exercising due care should
be enough for this to happen. In other words, if the folks at EgyptAir "have
known or should have known" that this crash was probable and failed to act,
they would be liable. Otherwise, they are not.
Lukeobe wrote:
>I do not think that you understood what I wrote: Yes the captain can go to
the
>bathroom, but the plane should be navigated by the first officer until he
is
>back in the cockpit.
>
>Mr. Al Batoti is a pilot. However, he was on board as a passenger, and not
a
>pilot. Suppose he did not catch that flight, I suspect that the captain
would
>have gone to the bathroom, and the first officer would have been in charge,
and
>there will be no crash.
>Plus how can the captain be sure, let us say, that Mr. al Batoti did not
take
>some medicine eg: codeine, some anti-histamine or cough medicine that could
>affect his ability to navigate a plane. The captain made a serious and
fatal
>error by allowing him to navigate the plane, when he was not supposed to.
>
I (Aktham) say:
Did I hear different news? He was not a passenger. I thought he was a member
of the relief crew. That is the crew that was to replace the take off crew
and fly the craft for the second half of the trip. It's not that he was not
supposed to fly, it's that he was not supposed to fly at that time.
I personally can not form a solid opinion one way or the other based on the
scant facts known about the whole ordeal. The one fact that could not be
disputed however, is that 217 lives were tragically lost. One should not be
quick to point fingers without a much higher degree of certainty.
[snip]
>I also wish that we Egyptians understand that suicide is a serious problem,
>that religious prohibitions on suicide, by both Muslims and Copts, are very
>much anti-reason, and anti-human. If we Egyptians understand that people do
>committ suicide, that religious stigma is very foolish, we would have IMO
>seen an end to this sick denial.
I agree about the seriousness of suicide but see above. I just don't think
we have enough to judge the man beyond doubt.
>
> >Tamer
>
>Luke
--
Aktham
Tamer Abdelgawad
[snip ...]
> >> The ABC of American law is that the employer is legally liable for errors,
> >> mistakes, crimes, etc...committed by his employees against their customers
> >> _while on the job_, which makes Egyptair liable because of the Captain's
> >> dereliction of his duties, and Mr. Batoti's devastating tape.
>
> >Are you sure crimes are included in this list
>
> Yes sir. It is the responsibility of the employer/owner to keep the work place
> safe for _BOTH_ employees and customers. Crimes are very much included here.
I understand the responsibility to maintain a safe workplace. That's
completely different from being liable for every crime your employees
commit while on the job. What exactly would the charge be?
> >Is the post office
> >liable if a mailman 'goes postal'?
>
> This is a bit complicated. Could you be more specific? As in when and where did
> the mailman go postal.
Let's say he was delivering mail to my place. I open the door to say
hello and he pulls a gun and shoots me in the leg. Can I automatically
sue the post office? Why would they be responsible?
> >As for dereliction of duty, I doubt airline regulations prevent a
> >Captain from going to the bathroom while on duty (especially since the
> >first officer was in the cockpit).
>
> I do not think that you understood what I wrote: Yes the captain can go to the
> bathroom, but the plane should be navigated by the first officer until he is
> back in the cockpit.
>
> Mr. Al Batoti is a pilot. However, he was on board as a passenger, and not a
> pilot.
Stop right there. Battooti was part of the crew, not a passenger. On
long flights, they have a relief crew (pilot, first officer, etc.) that
takes over at some point. Battooti was supposed to be part of the crew
which took over later in the flight, but I believe he asked to do his
shift early. I don't think there are any regulations governing the
exact order in which the crew members take shifts.
[snip analysis based on Battooti as passenger not crew]
> > >From what we know (which is not much), no one had any reason to suspect
> >> >Battooti of being mentally imbalanced or suicidal.
> >>
> >> In a court of law here in the US, this will get Egyptair no where. It is
> >their
> >> duty as a company to screen their employees, inorder to provide Egyptair's
> >> passangers with a safe flight. This can only be viewed in a court of law
> >as
> >> negligence by Egyptair. So the fact that no one suspected that he suffered
> >from
> >> mental disease is irrelevant. He did it as per tape.
> >
> >It is only negligence if EgyptAir *could* have screened him but didn't.
> >There's absolutely no evidence that anybody *could* have
>
> >screened/predicted his alleged behavior.
>
> Not true. Remember: QA ...structure...and exit. They flunked both. These people
> died.It is the ultimate test.
[snip ...]
Luke: You cannot be held responsible for what you absolutely have no
control over. In this sense, if Battooti was indeed responsible for
downing the plane and if EgyptAir had no possible way to predict his
behavior, then they should be no more liable than if the plane was
struck by lightning.
Tamer Abdelgawad
[snip stuff I agree with]
> I agree about the seriousness of suicide but see above. I just don't think
> we have enough to judge the man beyond doubt.
Hello Aktham:
I just want to make clear that I had absolutely no intention of judging
the man. I was simply suggesting the simplest/clearest explanation
given the facts.
BTW, people who can read arabic should take a look at the voice recorder
transcript *in Arabic* on the NTSB's site:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A_att.pdf
You'll need the free Acrobat PDF reader to view it. I must warn you
though, the last couple of pages are quite depressing ...
red...@my-deja.com
luk...@aol.com (Lukeobe) wrote:
> >red...@my-deja.com
> >Date: 8/16/00 10:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>
> wrote in article ><8ne92t$rb5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
> >> You need to read Mary Monk's "suicide" You will know
> >
> >I looked for "Mary Monk" on Amazon and Barnes&Nobles, but I found
> >nothing about her.
>
> Mary Monk is a professor of Public Health at Johns Hopkins
> school of Public Health, Dept of Epidemiology.
I looked in John Hopkins Public Health web site and found no professor
named Mary Monk. You can try it yourself:
http://www.jhsph.edu/searchsph.html
> ( Webster defines Epidemiology as : The branch of medicine
> that studies epidemics and epidemic diseases)
>
> You can look up her excellent work on the Epidemiology of "Suicide"
in:
> Maxcy-Roseneau, Public Health and Preventive Medicine. John M. Last
> Published by Appelton-Century-Crofts/Norwalk, Conn. pages 1385-1396
>
> Great source for understanding suicide for a non- medical person like
my self.
>
> You can also look up the American Psychiatric association manual for
> Psychiatric illnesses. This one was more technical for me.
>
> I found these great references in my school library.
>
> Go and read , and then let us talk.
>
> >Is she your aunt
>
> No she is not. She is not an Obied. Is she your aunt?
>
> > something
>
> Or something.
>
> >But it is my fault, because I was replying to the initiater of this
> >thread not to you, but it accidently came as a reply to you. Sorry.
> >
>
> Sir: If you wish to participate in this forum, any and all can
> reply to your articles, however, it is you that can select what to
>reply to or not.
Absolutely. But I felt I had to appologize for the mistake.
>
> Grow up sir.
Alyoucha
said and when, but in what tone of voice. (For example, it would be
impossible to understand expressions like, say, "Ya salaam!" or "Allah!"
unless we knew exactly in what tone of voice and context they were said).
Particularly Al Batooti's first "Tawakkaltu ala Allah" (I rely on God), a
few seconds before the automatic pilot was manually disengaged. Was it
uttered in a grave and somber, almost calm tone? That would make the suicide
theory more likely. Or was it shouted out in a panic-stricken, distressed
tone? Then that would support the theory that Al Batooti was confronted with
a sudden menace and reacted in terror in the only way he could think of.
Alyoucha
Tamer Abdelgawad <tabde...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39975DA7...@yahoo.com...
> Hello Folks:
>
> Thought you might be interested in this. Sadly, it doesn't leave much
> doubt in my mind about what happened, despite what the Egyptian
> authorities say.
>
>
Tamer Abdelgawad
>
> I think it would make all the difference if we didn't only know what was
> said and when, but in what tone of voice. (For example, it would be
> impossible to understand expressions like, say, "Ya salaam!" or "Allah!"
> unless we knew exactly in what tone of voice and context they were said).
> Particularly Al Batooti's first "Tawakkaltu ala Allah" (I rely on God), a
> few seconds before the automatic pilot was manually disengaged. Was it
> uttered in a grave and somber, almost calm tone? That would make the suicide
> theory more likely. Or was it shouted out in a panic-stricken, distressed
> tone? Then that would support the theory that Al Batooti was confronted with
> a sudden menace and reacted in terror in the only way he could think of.
>
> Alyoucha
I heartily agree. Does anyone know if the actual voice recording is
available to the public?
Alyoucha
suicide, but here are a couple of thoughts on the matter:
1) I wonder if any psychologists were consulted with regard to the
possibility that someone with a plan to commit suicide and
bring down a whole plane with him, could, just a few minutes before carrying
out his scheme, be in such a relaxed, humorous
and "gossipy" state of mind, as al Batooti obviously was. My common sense
tells me it's quite impossible. But I suppose it
wouldn't occur to the Americans that the principles of psychology that apply
to them would also apply to an Egyptian/ Arab/
Moslem. We all have terroristic tendencies anyway don't we?
2) Remember when the transcript was first heard and analyzed, it was
reported that Al Batooti's words were: "I have now
made my decision. I put my faith in God's hands". Why was this
misinformation released? Was it just the fault of an
American translator with poor Arabic knowledge? I hardly think so. I have
the suspicion that it was the Americans' objective
from the very start to create an impression that it was a suicide dive.
Later of course, when the public opinion was convinced
of Al Batooti's guilt, the translation was corrected to "I rely on God", as
if it didn't really make a lot of difference!! By then
the reputation was tarnished.
What IS the cause of crash? Suicide, missile evasion, technical or human
failure? Don't ask me. But I feel the burden of proof
now lies on the Americans.
Tamer Abdelgawad <tabde...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:399B7DC3...@yahoo.com...
Tamer Abdelgawad
>
> Having read the Arabic transcript I don't want to completely rule out
> suicide, but here are a couple of thoughts on the matter:
> 1) I wonder if any psychologists were consulted with regard to the
> possibility that someone with a plan to commit suicide and
> bring down a whole plane with him, could, just a few minutes before carrying
> out his scheme, be in such a relaxed, humorous
> and "gossipy" state of mind, as al Batooti obviously was. My common sense
> tells me it's quite impossible. But I suppose it
> wouldn't occur to the Americans that the principles of psychology that apply
> to them would also apply to an Egyptian/ Arab/
> Moslem. We all have terroristic tendencies anyway don't we?
I'm no expert on suicide, but my impression is that it doesn't have to
be accompanied by hysterics and/or irrational behavior. I agree that
it's difficult to conceive of someone planning suicide having a grand
ol' time a few minutes before, but the voice and flight data info when
Battouty is alone in the cockpit are hard to interpret any other way.
> 2) Remember when the transcript was first heard and analyzed, it was
> reported that Al Batooti's words were: "I have now
> made my decision. I put my faith in God's hands". Why was this
> misinformation released? Was it just the fault of an
> American translator with poor Arabic knowledge? I hardly think so. I have
> the suspicion that it was the Americans' objective
> from the very start to create an impression that it was a suicide dive.
> Later of course, when the public opinion was convinced
> of Al Batooti's guilt, the translation was corrected to "I rely on God", as
> if it didn't really make a lot of difference!! By then
> the reputation was tarnished.
> What IS the cause of crash? Suicide, missile evasion, technical or human
> failure? Don't ask me. But I feel the burden of proof
> now lies on the Americans.
As you yourself mentioned, tone of voice is critical. Saying "tawakalt
3ala allah" in a calm/resigned voice is probably better translated as "I
have now made my decision. I put my faith in God's hands" than simply "I
rely on God". Releasing the actual audio would put to rest all this
speculation.
CAIROMATIC
Alyoucha wrote:
--
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