Will the clearly BLACK man ever take Egypt back?
Jason Murray
i hope that the clearly black (all of those inAfrica that identifies
himself as African) does take Egypt back from the decendents of the
Romans,Greeks, Turks, Asians, and Europeans who's racial mixture is like
that of Puerto Ricans, but since the actual Arabs took over, seem to
have to call themselves Arabs, but they also try to claim heritage to
ancient Egypt!
They probaly can, that is ir their skin is not white!
It's too bad that Egypts sister counrty, Sudan have been 'brainwashed'
by Islam into being Arabs too, or Egypt would be back in the hands of
the true ancestors! Not just to those who were born there!
the last Africans to control Egypt were Gen. Mahgib, Nasser, and Sadat!
I do see the Africaness in Mubarak,but he seems to want to be on the
Arab side, the more popular side at the moment!
Lawanda Cox
The Hab wrote:
>What does your comment imply. Are you unwilling to accept the truth of Egypt's true ancestors or the conquerors and invaders. I would like it made known that Egypt is the home of the Blacks.
> S-P-A-M!
>
> The Hab
George
Lawanda Cox wrote:
>
> The Hab wrote:
> >What does your comment imply. Are you unwilling to accept the truth
> of Egypt's true ancestors or the conquerors and invaders. I would
> like it made known that Egypt is the home of the Blacks.
>
> > S-P-A-M!
> >
> > The Hab
Wait a minute, are you living a dream, Egypt the home of the Black ????
This is not the case. First of all I don't have anything against any
group of people, not to any color of people, or race. But not because
Egypt is in Africa then it must have been black, that's a dumb idea.
China and India are in the same continent, not just that but they have a
common border, but their people are totally different, in the color and
looks too.
So, Egypt is not black, Egypt is Egypt, it belongs only to the
Egyptians. Egyptians, even according to their paintings were not black,
and they are not white either, they are in between, not close to any of
the 2 colors.
So as The Hab said S-P-A-M
--
George
--
May the peace of God be with you;
Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it:
but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
George
Jason Murray wrote:
>
> What the hell do you mean not close to any of the colors! It was
> definitely really close , in a lot of cases (not mistaken for nubian)
> black!
No, refer to the paintings, the color of the Egyptians is not black.
> What do you mean "Egypt is for Epygtians, and not Africans?" If you
> can tell me, WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DIRECTLY RELATED TO THEM?
Directly ? No-one, he have neighbors, we have friends. Also, define
directly related. Any Asian can say we built the China wall ????? He
would be called stupid, only Chinese can say this. Also _ONLY_ the
Egyptians can say "we are the ancestors of the great civilization of
Egypt, we built the Pyramids and all the wonders of the Pharaohs" not
the African and not anyone else.
> Do not mention Arabs!
I won't, Egyptians are not Arabs.
> How can the Sudanese be black, and the southern Egytians be 'something
How can the Indians have another color than the Chinese ? They are
directly beside each other, if you went to India and traveled east will
you see the looks or the color of the people _gradually_ changing to the
chinese colors and looks ? :)
> that is unexplained,' WHEN YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERRENCE WHEN YOU
> CROSS THE BORDER!
Any Egyptian can tell on the fly, they are completely different, in
looks and color, only when you go to the Nubian parts you will find them
look very similar to the Sudanese, but then again Nubia was conquered by
the Egyptians.
> I say thank god for the Sudanese, they are the living proof of what
> the ancient Egyptians looked like while governing their own
> country! That is, until Asian and European invaders came in and
This can be proof to you, but I see your statement as a joke. Are the
Indians the living proof that the Chinese once looked like them, or vice
verse ??? Come on be rational.
> mixed with them!
> Why don't you send a picture of you?
I don't wish to.
> You cannot be a 'real' Egyptian if you see the Sudanese as 'something
> else!'
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT A REAL EGYPTIAN IS. SPAM
You probably never even saw the country, and just try to live in a
dream. The Sudanese ARE NOT EGYPTIANS and DOES NOT look like Egyptians,
if you can understand that Chinese and Indians don't look alike even
though they are right beside each other.
> Being a 'real' Egyptian does have to do with the skin color, not state
> mind (or state of denial)!
Well, it is my country, my heritage, and I won't share it with you. So,
SPAM. Find where you came from, Zimbabwe or whatever, and say my
ancestors did this or that, but don't include Egypt, unless you are an
Egyptian.
I am also a real Egyptian, and I won't wait for someone like _you_ to
tell me what a real Egyptian is.
HEXX
George <ab...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<3400EA81...@hotmail.com>...
> Lawanda Cox wrote:
> >
> So, Egypt is not black, Egypt is Egypt, it belongs only to the
> Egyptians.
EGYPTIAN IS A NATIONALITY NOT A RACE.
>Egyptians, even according to their paintings were not black,
> and they are not white either, they are in between, not close to any of
> the 2 colors.
SOME EGYPTIAN PAINTINGS SHOWS PEOPLE AS BLACK AS
STEROTYPICALLY BLACK AS CAN BE.
BUT *ANY ONE* WHOSE DONE ANY RESEARCH KNOWS THAT
WHEN IT CAME TO THEMSELVES THEY DID NOT PAINT
THEMSELVES ACCORDING TO SKIN COLOR.
THEY *USUALLY* DENOTED REDDISH TONE FOR MALES,
YELLOW TONES FOR FEMALE AND THE HIGHER YOUR SATUS
IN SOCIETY THE SLIGHTLY TALLY AND MORE ELEGENT
YOU WOULD BE DRAWN.
BUT FOR THEIR SURROUNDING NEIGHBOURS
THEY DIPICTED REALISTICALLY. LIKE THE NUBIANS WHO THEY
INTERMARRIED INTO AND WERE CONSTANTLY AT
THE VERGE OF WAR WITH.
> So as The Hab said S-P-A-M
I DON'T TOUCH PORK MYSELF.
> --
> George
> --
"H",
LONDON MASSIVE.
Jason Murray
As I read all of the post responses, it has become clear to me that the
white-Arab/mixed-race, light-skinned Egyptians are not going to face the
truth no matter how detailed I come with the truth!
It is clear that you have an 'Uncle Tom' mentality. You think that
whatever the white man says is the final word. It's really sad.
I realize that Arabs are running Egypt, so that is who you people will
follow( Islam is your second master). Although you must admit that even
if you say that you are not related to the Sudanese (Egypt's history is
Sudan's history), you Arabs do not look alike. Egyptians are more
African in origin when compared to northern Algerians and most
Tunisians.
That's not the topic. What I will present to you today is evidence by A
WHITE MAN about who the ancient Egyptians really were. All of this
makes sense. This answers the 'straight hair' question that one of the
members posed. I must add to that, Somalis, Ethiopians, and East
Africans in GENERAL have almost straight hair, which is what the mummies
that you saw had.
I have pictures of mummies(royal family members) with curly, or if you
would kie, 'kinky' hair! I woold show you, but I do not have a scanner.
Most people in North Africa (mainly the coasts, where most of the
capitals are) who claim that they are Arabs ( it seem that to be an Arab
in Africa, all one has to do is speak a dialect of Arabic, or be
light-skinned), are mainly 'left overs' from the Roman (especially in
Algeria and Tunisia) empire. They of course were mixed with some other
invaders, but it is mostly Roman. People do not think of this because
they are muslims that hate Europe, and these colonizers had been
colonized by the French.
This is the same with the decendents of the Egyptians. People think
that they died out when the Romans came, but they are still their (In
Egypt and Sudan. Maybe Libya and Chad also).
The point is that people call themselves whatever they wish to call
themselves, but it they call themselves whatever the current rulers are,
or consider themselves. This also includes being raised in a particular
culture. What ever the culture, that's what you will idenitfy with in
most (90%) cases. Look at African-Americans!
Now to the real deal.....
I will be returning to school in a few days, so I went to pick up my
books. One of the books happened to be an art book. Of course when
they go over th history of art, they always talk about Greece, Rome, and
Egypt.
So, I skimmed through the book. By the way, this book is entited:
"Art: A History of Painting, Sculpture, and Architechture," by Frederick
Hartt.
What I found should be enough to satisfy both 'Afro-centrists' and
white/Uncle Tom's/Arabs/whoever else is in denial.
Keep in mind that this passage is from a WHITE MAN, so I know that you
will beleve it!
On page 70 it reads....
"During the 4th millennium B.C., the valley was inhabited by a
long-headed, BROWN-skinned ethnic group, apparently of African origin,
while the delta to the north was the home of a round-skulled (no skin
color mentioned)* people ORIGINALLY from ASIA.
At many periods of Egyptian history emigration from the south brought
BLACK-skinned (African's also. See, brown and black skins in Africa!)*
people from Nubia into Egypt, often as soldiers; the 25th dynasty
conquerors was a family of Nubians."
Let us all come clean.....
Jason Murray
No one group predominated?
The delta region is only a little sliver of land. Upper Egypt is 3/4 os
the land! Asians had the delta. Going south just a little bit, mixed
(Asian and African, which is how you got the most popular ancient
egyptian look) people were the majority. In Upper Egypt, it was no
doubt Africans until you run out of land. Note that as you go further
south in Africa, the people get lighter!
The point is that AFRICANS were the main group! If they were not, then
the Egyptians would have not been so 'dark!'
Katherine Griffis
sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) wrote:
>The point is that people call themselves whatever they wish to call
>themselves, but it they call themselves whatever the current rulers are,
>or consider themselves.
I believe the point is this: the Egyptians, living today, and posting
to this newsgroup, ARE Egyptians. Many can trace their lineage
further back than any person on earth -- for that is the nature of the
Egyptian cultural system and the nature of their religious beliefs.
They know who and what they are, and no book by speculation (as are
most Afrocentrist books) can deny that history and ability to know
their position and place in history.
Egypt exists in Africa, and thus its culture is "African" by
geographical designation. No soul on earth has ever denied that. But
ethnically, the Egyptians are a unique people, comprised of many
peoples who a) existed in the Nile Valley indigenously, b) who
traversed the north African region in nomadic fashion from the Sahara
region, the Moroccan coast and north from the Mediterranean areas, and
c) also from the areas known as Nubia and sub-saharan Africa. _NO
ONE_ group predominated, but blended within a _culture_ that we call
"Ancient Egypt". The fact that the ancient Egyptians "egyptianized"
known foreign groups that resided in Egypt (by name, clothing and
artistic representations of them in painting and sculpture) indicates
that, to the ancient Egyptian, their cultural style predominated
rather than any concern over physical charactertistics.
RE: Hartt's quote:
>Keep in mind that this passage is from a WHITE MAN, so I know that you
>will beleve it!
<TO me, this belies such racism on your part it's rather sickening,
you see, but to continue...>
>On page 70 it reads....
>"During the 4th millennium B.C., the valley was inhabited by a
>long-headed, BROWN-skinned ethnic group, apparently of African origin,
>while the delta to the north was the home of a round-skulled (no skin
>color mentioned)* people ORIGINALLY from ASIA.
>At many periods of Egyptian history emigration from the south brought
>BLACK-skinned (African's also. See, brown and black skins in Africa!)*
>people from Nubia into Egypt, often as soldiers; the 25th dynasty
>conquerors was a family of Nubians."
So, what does this really say, Jason? Just as I have said above:
multi-ethnic groups made up ancient Egypt, and blended into the person
who we know today as the ancient and modern Egyptian. Remember, that
a culture is more than a color of a person: it is what that person
DOES that makes a "culture and civilization". This is what the
Egyptians here on this newsgroup have been saying all along
>Let us all come clean.....
And I agree: I think you owe the modern Egyptian readers on this
newsgroup a full and complete apology. After the last few days of
insults calling them "invaders", not "real Egyptians", etc. you have
not proved anything but that the people whom you insult ARE the people
of the ancient times.
And would you then do this, and "come clean..."?
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
International Association of Egyptologists
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Special Studies
http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
<remove asterisks in address if replying to me directly>
Reading mail from me in a Usenet group does not
grant you the right to send me unsolicited commercial e-mail.
All senders of unsolicited commercial e-mail will be
reported to their postmasters as Usenet abusers.
M M Ghanem
>That's not the topic. What I will present to you today is evidence by A
>WHITE MAN about who the ancient Egyptians really were. All of this
No sir, it is you who refuse to use your mind. Your only agenda is to
say that what you call the "white man" is wrong.
Fo you people are "white" === Bad and non-white = "black" === good.
You are so obssessed with race and color to a sickening extent.
You have been brainwashed twice. First time by telling you that your so
called "white man" is more superior than you.
You were then brainwashed the second time and led to believe that the only way
out of that dilema is to prove at any expense that your so called "black man"
is more superio or at least was more superior until the so called "white man"
stole this superiority.
I hope that you do not believe that the "WHITE MAN" was created by mad
black scientist long ago.
Get a life Jason !
M M Ghanem
>That's not the topic. What I will present to you today is evidence by A
>WHITE MAN about who the ancient Egyptians really were. All of this
You do not understand what the word evidence means.
Until you have learned how to collect evidence, reason about itin an unbiased
way and reach conclusions you should leave this group.
>I will be returning to school in a few days, so I went to pick up my
>books. One of the books happened to be an art book. Of course when
>they go over th history of art, they always talk about Greece, Rome, and
>Egypt.
I sincerely hope that they teach you a) how to think and reach your own
conclusions, b) not to be a racist.
Jason Murray
And a 3rd world country can teach it's people at all?
The Hab
American schools barely teach their students to read. You are asking too
much;).
The Hab
Jason Murray
I thught that I was helping you see the light! It appears asif you only
want to see the white.
M M Ghanem
In article <5ueuhc$8dv$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net> sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) writes:
>
>In Chancelor Williams book, " The Destruction of the Black
>Civilization," he makes these points very clear. He says that Asians
>You, my friend have said something today to change the flow of this
>conversation. Now I will no longer 'over-stress' Egypt's blackness. I
>will say that the blackness is in 97% of all Egyptians regardless of
>color.
Say what you say Jason if it makes you feel any better.
>our blackness. Of course you will have your 'Uncle Tom's' who kiss the
>white man's ass, but you have your weak one's who just give up the fight
>in every group.
I guess you will still never realy feel any better in the long term until
you sincerely do _understand_ as well as _believe_ that no matter what person's
color is no matter what his race is we are all one and the same.
If not you will be soon fighting windmills on a donkey.
>I wanted to see who was on the side of the white man, and who felt that
>in the 3rd world coming to America, that being black is not the popular
>thing to be. No harm was meant, but those who could not and would not
No harm was meant from us Jason we only want you give up your racist attitude
to life.
But as I said you will never change and it is not your fault.
Bye Bye :-)
M M Ghanem
In article <5uf9o4$anv$1...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net> sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) writes:
>I thught that I was helping you see the light! It appears asif you only
>want to see the white.
ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Good night Jason
sweet dreams
Jason Murray
You just said what I have been trying to get the other 'knuckle-heads'
to say.
I have to say that Upper Egypt did not become great until they took over
the delta, but the delta was not great either.
I suppose that the south needed the vegetation and a shoreline to the
north. This was mainly to
to make sure that those who 'settled' in the delta would at least stay
in the delta and not continue to travel south.
In Chancelor Williams book, " The Destruction of the Black
Civilization," he makes these points very clear. He says that Asians
and Europeans were out to take Africa, and that they would not stop for
anything.
He was is right when you think about it. Asians came into Africa, the
last being the Arabs, and they refuse to leave. The Europeans came in
and took over the natives and their invaders. This temporaily stopped
the progress of the Asians.
You, my friend have said something today to change the flow of this
conversation. Now I will no longer 'over-stress' Egypt's blackness. I
will say that the blackness is in 97% of all Egyptians regardless of
color.
You do have to understand that we African-Americans mimic the modern
Egyptian population, in that we range in color from 'white' to
dark-brown, and we all, including the 'white' one's, except and admit to
our blackness. Of course you will have your 'Uncle Tom's' who kiss the
white man's ass, but you have your weak one's who just give up the fight
in every group.
Excepting and adimtting your blackness is all that I was trying to do.
I wanted to see who was on the side of the white man, and who felt that
in the 3rd world coming to America, that being black is not the popular
thing to be. No harm was meant, but those who could not and would not
except what is are probaly the one's chasing white women( like Dodi
Al-Fayed) to 'mix' into the white society.
Linda Brown
>
>Say what you say Jason if it makes you feel any better.
> >
> >I wanted to see who was on the side of the white man, and who felt that
> >in the 3rd world coming to America, that being black is not the popular
> >thing to be. No harm was meant, but those who could not and would not
>
> No harm was meant from us Jason we only want you give up your racist attitude
> to life.
> But as I said you will never change and it is not your fault.
>
> Bye Bye :-)
>
>
>
I believe that afrocentrism is just as racist as eurocentrism. Do try to
understand that most African-Americans think of people's identity only in
terms of skin color; it is difficult for them to comprehend that other
people identify themselves in other ways. And when using the term black ,
they use it as it is defined in the US and Europe ie anyone w/black
African ancestry. Although we African-Americans have struggled to define
ourselves, some of us are noow trying to impose our wold view on others.
As more African-Americans travel to other parts of the world and see other
brown adn black skinned people, they will become more aware of how much
peopla are separated by ethnicily and culture even though their skin color
may be similar.
Linda
Shemah
Jason Murray wrote:
> I hope there would be a day where no one can access their Internet
> account without knowing their blood level.
If this were so, the Internet would fall on its face and come to a
screeching halt... especially the newsgroups!
--
Shemah
http://tctwest.net/~shemah
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons
for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup
GROOVE YOU
>>>>I believe that afrocentrism is just as racist as eurocentrism. Do try to
understand that most African-Americans think of people's identity only
in><<<<<
This statement is rediculous, Anyone claiming to be afrocentric or that is
considered afrocentric cannot be racist, and is not as racist as eurocentrists.
Eurocentrics claim a legacy of a civilization on a land that they have no
native connection to whatsoever, that is racist.
Afrocentric claim a legacy of a people on a land of which most
afrocentrics are a native of, where is the racism?.....
You will never find a afrocentric claiming that there is a White Europe
and a Black Europe, which these are clearly racist terms, yet this is a
Eurocentric term, it is used in reference to Africa.
Eurocentrics have twisted true history and because some people want to
deal in truth, we should not call them racist.
Shemah
CORRECTION!!!
Avicebron (not Jason Murray) wrote:
> I hope there would be a day where no one can access their Internet
> account without knowing their blood level. Stop drinking this cheap
> vodka.
Ame...@msn.com
In article <5ubicc$f...@camel3.mindspring.com>,
grifcon**@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) wrote:
>
> >The point is that people call themselves whatever they wish to call
> >themselves, but it they call themselves whatever the current rulers are,
> >or consider themselves.
>
> I believe the point is this: the Egyptians, living today, and posting
> to this newsgroup, ARE Egyptians. Many can trace their lineage
> further back than any person on earth
That is 100% unadulterated bull crap. The Australian aboriginies can
trace their lineage back much further, the Ethiopians and Sudanese also
have them beat.
>-- for that is the nature of the
> Egyptian cultural system and the nature of their religious beliefs.
> They know who and what they are,
What group of people doesn't 'THINK' they know who and what they are?
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
JMUSTI
Before you begin to trace your history back farther than anyone ,i suggest
that you read about the cushites(ethiopians -they came before egypt. Also
the first Pharoahs came from the Nubians.For reference books consult the
bible Herodotus and any book by Dr. Ben Joachinin. Visit the Museums in
Egypt and look up king Tut-Amenophis -Amenhotep-Hotep-(the real father of
medicine)
just to name a few early Afrikans. Notice their features and hairstyle.
George
JMUSTI wrote:
>
> Before you begin to trace your history back farther than anyone ,i
> suggest
> that you read about the cushites(ethiopians -they came before egypt.
> Also
> the first Pharoahs came from the Nubians.For reference books consult
> the
> bible Herodotus and any book by Dr. Ben Joachinin. Visit the Museums
The Bible ????? Which chapter and which verse ? I don't remember I have
ever read a verse that says "and the pharaoh came from Nubia", care to
help ? And why Dr. Ben Joachinin specifically :) ????
> in
> Egypt and look up king Tut-Amenophis -Amenhotep-Hotep-(the real father
> of
> medicine)
> just to name a few early Afrikans. Notice their features and
> hairstyle.
Do you know what, after seeing those pictures I was amazed and realized
how greatly they look like the guy next door, I was really amazed, do
you know what else amazed me more, the guy next door is an Egyptian, can
you believe this, an Egyptian looking very much like the ancient kings ?
To give you an idea about the color they gave themselves, there is
something called pigment, they were limited to the pigments which was
around them, but still they made their color different than the black
color. Egyptian are not white, Egyptian are not Black, Egyptians are
Egyptians. There is a book called the Art History written by Marilyn
Stokstad, on page 469 there is a statue called "Head Nok culture, c. 500
BCE - 200 CE. Terra-cotta, height 14 3/16" (36 cm) National Museum,
Lagos, Nigeria" This head looks very much like the african we have these
days, but in no way does it look like an Egyptian, actually check that
whole chapter, none of them look like any Egyptian, not today or even
any of the Pharonic statues you can find these days, and certainly not
like Tut either :)
But take a look at the Pharaohs and try to guess how they looked like in
real life and then compare them to the today's Egyptian, you will find
them very much alike.
M M Ghanem
In article <19970923171...@ladder02.news.aol.com> jmu...@aol.com (JMUSTI) writes:
>Before you begin to trace your history back farther than anyone ,i suggest
>that you read about the cushites(ethiopians -they came before egypt. Also
Cush was in the Sudan if my memory does not fail me. Punt was in Ethiopia.
The Cushites came at a much later date than the Pharaohs. The development
of their script which was was a variation on the hieroglypics was several
thousand years too late.
M M Ghanem
In article <34285CC4...@hotmail.com> ab...@hotmail.com writes:
>JMUSTI wrote:
>
>To give you an idea about the color they gave themselves, there is
>something called pigment, they were limited to the pigments which was
>around them, but still they made their color different than the black
>color. Egyptian are not white, Egyptian are not Black, Egyptians are
>Egyptians. There is a book called the Art History written by Marilyn
Absolutely. I just want to add:
Get any living person to put their hand against a white sheet of paper and
then decide what colour should be used to draw their hand. (It will not be
white).
Leave that person in the sun for some time and repeat the excercise.
And as we always say: El-samar nos el-gamal (tanned color is half the beauty).
>But take a look at the Pharaohs and try to guess how they looked like in
>real life and then compare them to the today's Egyptian, you will find
>them very much alike.
>
Well they can conduct two more experiments if they want:
1. Take a random sample of all African Americans and random sample of Egyptians
and a random sample of pictures (or statues) of ancient Egyptians.
Compare the features based on any scientific (or semi-scientici) measure
you want (proportions of face features, etc) and tell me what you
come up with.
2. If you have some money repeat the experiment but using DNA evidence.
Moustafa
HEXX
M M Ghanem <m...@doc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in article
<60aptu$6gu$1...@magpie.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
AND THE NUBIANS....?
THEY CAME A FULL 8000 YEARS BEFORE THE EGYPTIANS AND
ALREADY HAD THEIR OWN CIVILISATION WHICH ARCHEOLOGISTS
ARE STARTING TO BELIEVE WAS WHERE EGYPT SPAWNED FROM.
IT ALSO CONFIRMS THE ORIGINAL EGYPTIANS *OWN* BELIEF
THAT THEY CAME FROM THE SOUTH.
"H",
LONDON MASSIVE.
Jason Murray
--WebTV-Mail-1566211015-3483
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MM. Now I know that you are a 'white style' 'Egyptian!
--WebTV-Mail-1566211015-3483
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<h3><marquee><color=red>The Teacher</html></Marquee>
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Jason Murray
--WebTV-Mail-1233433167-9045
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EAST Africans look like ancient Egyptians!
West Africans have a look that's different from other Africans.
However, Black Africans in the Sahara could probaly pass.
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<h3><marquee><color=red>The Teacher</html></Marquee>
--WebTV-Mail-1233433167-9045--
HEXX
M M Ghanem <m...@doc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in article
<60an89$5q1$1...@magpie.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> In article <34285CC4...@hotmail.com> ab...@hotmail.com writes:
> >JMUSTI wrote:
> >
> >To give you an idea about the color they gave themselves, there is
> >something called pigment, they were limited to the pigments which was
> >around them, but still they made their color different than the black
> >color. Egyptian are not white, Egyptian are not Black, Egyptians are
> >Egyptians. There is a book called the Art History written by Marilyn
>
>
> Well they can conduct two more experiments if they want:
>
> 1. Take a random sample of all African Americans and random sample of
Egyptians
> and a random sample of pictures (or statues) of ancient Egyptians.
> Compare the features based on any scientific (or semi-scientici)
measure
> you want (proportions of face features, etc) and tell me what you
> come up with.
>
BOY I HAVE TO REPEAT MY SELF......
I SEE AFTER LEAVING THE ARGUMENTS HERE THAT
THE THREADS HAVE GONE BACK TO THE OLD CHESTNUT
OF "THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU, THEY LOOK LIKE ME"
ARGUMENT.
THIS AS ANYONE WHO KNOWS AN OUNCE OF EGYPTIAN
HISTORY AND THE MANY INVASIONS ETC, MEANS THAT
YOU CAN PROBERBLY PICK ANY FACIAL TYPE AND GO
PAINTINGS ON TOMBS AND STATUES TO MATCH THEM.
YES EVEN BLACK AS NIGHT, AFRICANS.
IT IS BETTER TO HAVE ARGUMENTS ON HISTORY,
SINCE THIS DEALS WITH THE ACTUAL EVENTS,
MOVEMENTS OF PEOPLE. NOT SUPERFICIAL
THINGS LIKE FACIAL CHARECTERISTICS.
ANYWAY...............
HERE'S A RECENT ARTICLE FROM
TIME MAGAZINE ALL ABOUT THE RECENT ARCHEOLOGICAL WORK
ON NUBIA.
http://www.pathfinder.com/@@NpTB2AQAiBNmpPfF/time/magazine/1997/dom/970915/a
arch.the_niles_oth.html
IN THE ARTICLE IT SAYS.....
"Another problem, scholars now firmly believe, was racial prejudice,
which turned many in the field away from cultures emanating
from deeper in Africa Prominent Egyptologists --including the
noted American George Reisner, who worked in Sudan--thought
they were excavating the remains of an offshoot of Egyptian culture. "
They didn't believe black Africa was capable of producing high
civilization,
says Kendall. "
NUBIA CAME FIRST, EGYPT SPRUNG FROM NUBIA...
"The latest crop of discoveries is helping put such ideas to rest.
French archaeologists, for example, have found exquisite ceramic figurines,
bowls and funerary objects at sites that date from at least 8000 b.c.
They are as old as any Neolithic sites in Africa and predate prehistoric
finds in Egypt by a staggering 3,000 years. This strongly suggests to
Hassan Hussein Idris, director of Sudan's National Board for Antiquities
and Museums, that ancient Nubia might have been an important
source of Egypt's civilization, as well as the other way around. "
>
> 2. If you have some money repeat the experiment but using DNA evidence.
>
TO DO A DNA EXPERIMENT YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET
THE ACTUAL EGYPTIANS , PRE EGYPTIAN INVASIONS BY A
WHOLE MYRIAD OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.THE ORIGINAL
(KEMET)EGYPTIANS WERE NOTHING LIKE THEIR INVADERS.
THESE MYRIAD PEOPLE CONTRIBUTE TO THE GENETICOF
THE EGYPTIAN POPULATION *NOW*.
NOT IN THE DAYS OF KEMET,NOT IN THE DAYS OF NUBIA,
>
> Moustafa
>
>
>
"H",
LONDON MASSIVE.
Jason Murray
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EAST Africans look like ancient Egyptians!
West Africans have a look that's different from other Africans.
However, Black Africans in the Sahara could probaly pass.
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Jason Murray
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EAST Africans look like ancient Egyptians!
West Africans have a look that's different from other Africans.
However, Black Africans in the Sahara could probaly pass.
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M M Ghanem
In article <60djie$l15$1...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net> sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) writes:
>
>MM. Now I know that you are a 'white style' 'Egyptian!
>
'white style', 'black style' 'white man' 'black man'
is all what you know about this world Jason.
I told you before I am Egyptian. PERIOD.
This is what all Egyptians identify as, not black not white just Egyptian.
Why is this too difficult to understand. It is no compliment or insult
to me whatever color you may wish to bestow on me.
Moustafa
Jason Murray
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If there is no insult, then why the constant denial of the black?
Puerto-Ricans are Puerto-Ricans, and they are not 'black or white,' they
are both.
Americans are Americans, but we all are of a particular group(race).
I know that it is hard for you to get into the race thing because in
north Africa, the people are from black to white, and everything in
between.
Some have almost white-like skin with black(African) hair/features,
others are dark with so-called 'white' hair/features.
I understand. If you are a REAL Egyptian, related to the anceints, and
you claim that you look like them, then you should be a black man and
you should have no trouble stating this.
If you you do have trouble, you are not a black/TRUE Egyptian man.
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M M Ghanem
In article <60f6sa$4lo$1...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net> sv...@webtv.net (Jason Murray) writes:
>
>If there is no insult, then why the constant denial of the black?
Why should I admit it if it is not true though ?
If you tell me that I am 7ft tall or that I am 5ft tall, neither is an insult
and both are still not true :-)
>
>Puerto-Ricans are Puerto-Ricans, and they are not 'black or white,' they
>are both.
What do Puerto-Ricans have to do with Egypt ?
>I understand. If you are a REAL Egyptian, related to the anceints, and
>you claim that you look like them, then you should be a black man and
>you should have no trouble stating this.
Your reasoning is then flawed.
>
>If you you do have trouble, you are not a black/TRUE Egyptian man.
>
That is your problem: You can only think that Black is good, White is bad
you are no different from other racists who say the reverse.
M M Ghanem
In article <01bcc94b$8051b5a0$4f2f63c3@mzee> "HEXX" <he...@btinternet.com>
writes:
>> The Cushites came at a much later date than the Pharaohs. The development
>> of their script which was was a variation on the hieroglypics was several
>> thousand years too late.
>>
>
>AND THE NUBIANS....?
>
>THEY CAME A FULL 8000 YEARS BEFORE THE EGYPTIANS AND
Well I have to correct that, according to the Time magazine article you quote
actually say:
T> The latest crop of discoveries is helping put such ideas to rest.
T> French archaeologists, for example, have found exquisite ceramic
T> figurines, bowls and funerary objects at sites that date from at least
T> 8000 b.c. They are as old as any Neolithic sites in Africa and predate
T> prehistoric finds in Egypt by a staggering 3,000 years. This strongly
So the artificats are thought to date back to 8000 BC (3000 years before)
not a "FULL 8000 YEARS BEFORE THE EGYPTIANS" as you say.
I am not sure exactly how far back the Nagada I artificats in Egypt date
to (probably would date back to the same period).
These artificats were common in other parts of the middle east as well.
Check your history books.
>ALREADY HAD THEIR OWN CIVILISATION WHICH ARCHEOLOGISTS
>ARE STARTING TO BELIEVE WAS WHERE EGYPT SPAWNED FROM.
No, according to the article you quote again this is only the view of
director of Sudan's National Board for Antiquities and Museums
however the article itself only claims:
T> Everything uncovered thus far supports the conviction that has been
T> building among scholars during the past 20 years that the Nubians were
T> not just vassals and trading partners of the Egyptian Pharaohs but also
T> the creators of an ancient and impressive civilization of their own
You also say:
>IN THE ARTICLE IT SAYS.....
>
>"Another problem, scholars now firmly believe, was racial prejudice,
>which turned many in the field away from cultures emanating
>from deeper in Africa Prominent Egyptologists --including the
>noted American George Reisner, who worked in Sudan--thought
> they were excavating the remains of an offshoot of Egyptian culture. "
>They didn't believe black Africa was capable of producing high
>civilization,
> says Kendall. "
>
>
>NUBIA CAME FIRST, EGYPT SPRUNG FROM NUBIA...
No what this says is that the Nubians and the Egyptians were
_clearly established groups, separate from each other_, doesn't it?
No one has ever argued against interaction between these
peoples, and _interaction_ does not mean ORIGIN.
The Egyptians interacted with the Nubians and the middle east.
Trade routes to Palestine from northern Egypt in the predynastic
era were as known as those to Nubia.
You have to ask yourself why did the ancient Egyptians differentiate
themselves from all these groups ?
However, maybe these Nubian discoveries will tempt you to leave this newsgroup
and create a new newsgroup: soc.culture.ancient-nubia and take your discussions there.
Moustafa
P.S.
You seem also to have forgotton to read the passage in the article that says:
T> Not all archaeologists are prepared to go that far. But there is now
T> enough evidence for a scientific consensus that ancient Nubia,
T> beginning in the Stone Age, developed its own distinct
T> civilization--or rather, a series of overlapping
T> civilizations--influenced by Africa, Arabia and the Sahara as well as
T> by Egypt. Moreover, many scholars believe these Nubian kingdoms hold
T> even more clues to the origins of African culture than does Egypt,
T> which, because of its unique position abutting Asia and the
T> Mediterranean, is regarded by many archaeologists as having developed
T> independently from the rest of the continent.
Jason Murray
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Where did I ever say that white was bad?
Since you say that, again, I have no choice but to assume that you are a
'white-style' 'Egyptian.
I never said that white=bad, and that black-good. These are YOUR words
that you use to avoid the facts, as opposed to your blanket statments.
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M M Ghanem
In article <01bcc94b$1b1f5660$4f2f63c3@mzee> "HEXX" <he...@btinternet.com>
writes:
>
>BOY I HAVE TO REPEAT MY SELF......
>
>
> HISTORY AND THE MANY INVASIONS ETC, MEANS THAT
>YOU CAN PROBERBLY PICK ANY FACIAL TYPE AND GO
>PAINTINGS ON TOMBS AND STATUES TO MATCH THEM.
>YES EVEN BLACK AS NIGHT, AFRICANS.
>
>IT IS BETTER TO HAVE ARGUMENTS ON HISTORY,
>SINCE THIS DEALS WITH THE ACTUAL EVENTS,
>MOVEMENTS OF PEOPLE. NOT SUPERFICIAL
>THINGS LIKE FACIAL CHARECTERISTICS.
>
No it is better to have scientific arguments.
Forget facial characteristics and artist impressions etc.
What about DNA ???
Someone brought to my attention recently the work in DNA at BYU of
Scott Woodward on ancient Egyptians, as far back as the Old Kingdom and before, whose results confirm what has been said before:
i.e. that the Egyptians were comprised of MANY groups of people.
They formed settled communities that interacted and that
needed to organise their lives and to tame their environment.
They founded a civilisation that lasted for sveral thousand years that
was distinct from every thing that was before, after or during the same
period.
And I am proud to be one of their descendents.
And again for the last time, I am still waiting for _YOU_ to show me how _YOU_
are related to the ancient Egyptians.
Moustafa
George
M M Ghanem wrote:
>
> In article <60f6sa$4lo$1...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net> sv...@webtv.net
> (Jason Murray) writes:
> >
> >I understand. If you are a REAL Egyptian, related to the anceints,
> and
> >you claim that you look like them, then you should be a black man and
> >you should have no trouble stating this.
>
> Your reasoning is then flawed.
It is a circular reasoning.
HEXX
M M Ghanem <m...@doc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in article
<60gc3g$mpj$1...@magpie.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
>
>
> In article <01bcc94b$8051b5a0$4f2f63c3@mzee> "HEXX" <he...@btinternet.com>
> writes:
> >> The Cushites came at a much later date than the Pharaohs. The
development
> >> of their script which was was a variation on the hieroglypics was
several
> >> thousand years too late.
> >>
> >
> >AND THE NUBIANS....?
> >
> >THEY CAME A FULL 8000 YEARS BEFORE THE EGYPTIANS AND
>
>
> Well I have to correct that, according to the Time magazine article you
quote
> actually say:
>
> T> The latest crop of discoveries is helping put such ideas to rest.
> T> French archaeologists, for example, have found exquisite ceramic
> T> figurines, bowls and funerary objects at sites that date from at
least
> T> 8000 b.c. They are as old as any Neolithic sites in Africa and
predate
> T> prehistoric finds in Egypt by a staggering 3,000 years. This
strongly
>
> So the artificats are thought to date back to 8000 BC (3000 years before)
> not a "FULL 8000 YEARS BEFORE THE EGYPTIANS" as you say.
>
YOU'RE RIGHT.
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE HALF ASLEEP
POSTING SO EARLY IN THE MORNING!!
ANYWAY CORRECTION ASIDE THE NUBIAN CIVILISATION
IS *STILL* NEARLY 5000 YEARS OLDER THAN EGYPTIAN
CIVILISATION
THE BEGINNING OF EGYPTIAN CIVILISATION IS
INBETWEEN 3050-2705 B.C.
HERE'S A SIMPLIFIED TIMELINE FOR YOU.
Archaic Period 3050 - 2705 BC
Dynasties 1-2
Old Kingdom 2705 - 2213 BC
Dynasties 3-8
First Intermediate Period 2213 - 1991 BC
Dynasties 9-11
Middle Kingdom 1991 - 1668 BC
Dynasties 12-13
Second Intermediate Period 1668 - 1570 BC
Dynasties 14-17
New Kingdom 1570 - 1070 BC
Dynasties 18-20
Late Period 1070 - 656 BC
Dynasties 21-24
Dynasty 25 (Kushite Domination)
Assyrian Domination
Saite Period 685 - 525 BC
Dynasty 26
Persian Period 525 - 332 BC
Dynasties 27-31
Greek and Roman Period 332 BC - AD 395
> I am not sure exactly how far back the Nagada I artificats in Egypt date
> to (probably would date back to the same period).
> These artificats were common in other parts of the middle east as well.
> Check your history books.
>
I HAVE.
Amratian Culture (=Nagada I) 4200 - 3700 BC
STILL NOT AS OLD AS NUBIAN CIVILISATION.
YOU SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT IN THE TIME ARTICLE
THERE IS NO CONFUSION BETWEEN THIS CULTURE
AND THE NUBIAN CIVILISATION BY THE ARCHEOLOGISTS
>
> >ALREADY HAD THEIR OWN CIVILISATION WHICH ARCHEOLOGISTS
> >ARE STARTING TO BELIEVE WAS WHERE EGYPT SPAWNED FROM.
>
> No, according to the article you quote again this is only the view of
> director of Sudan's National Board for Antiquities and Museums
> however the article itself only claims:
>
> T> Everything uncovered thus far supports the conviction that has been
> T> building among scholars during the past 20 years that the Nubians were
> T> not just vassals and trading partners of the Egyptian Pharaohs but
also
> T> the creators of an ancient and impressive civilization of their own
>
> You also say:
>
> >IN THE ARTICLE IT SAYS.....
> >
> >"Another problem, scholars now firmly believe, was racial prejudice,
> >which turned many in the field away from cultures emanating
> >from deeper in Africa Prominent Egyptologists --including the
> >noted American George Reisner, who worked in Sudan--thought
> > they were excavating the remains of an offshoot of Egyptian culture. "
> >They didn't believe black Africa was capable of producing high
> >civilization,
> > says Kendall. "
> >
> >
> >NUBIA CAME FIRST, EGYPT SPRUNG FROM NUBIA...
>
>
> No what this says is that the Nubians and the Egyptians were
> _clearly established groups, separate from each other_, doesn't it?
>
IF YOU KNEW THE GENERAL OLD SCHOOL
TREATMENT OF NUBIA *UNTIL THESE RECENT DECADES*,
IT WAS THOUGHT TO BE AN OFFSHOOT OF EGYPT A
LAND THAT WAS *LUCKY* ENOUGH TO BE CLOSE
ENOUGH TO EGYPT AND BE FORMED INTO A
CIVILISATION BY EGYPTIAN INFLUENCE.
THE LATEST DICOVERIES FLIP THIS ON IT'S HEAD.
NUBIA WAS THERE FIRST BY A LONG SHOT.AND
IT WAS MORE LIKELY BEING A CIVILISATION FIRST
THAT IT WAS EGYPT THAT WAS INFLUENECED BY
NUBIA INTO A CIVILISATION.
> No one has ever argued against interaction between these
> peoples, and _interaction_ does not mean ORIGIN.
>
> The Egyptians interacted with the Nubians and the middle east.
> Trade routes to Palestine from northern Egypt in the predynastic
> era were as known as those to Nubia.
>
AHEM.... PREDYNATIC TIMES, YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO GO
THERE!
IT IS GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT IN NEOLITHIC TIMES
AND EVEN BEFORE THAT THAT BLACK, NEGRIOD GROUPS
PREDOMINATED THE *WHOLE* OF THE SAHARA
INCLUDING EGYPT.
WHICH MAKES PERFECT SENSE SINCE TRIBAL GROUPS
MIGRATED THROUGHOUT *ALL*, THROUGH ALL OF ANCIENT TIME
EGYPT WAS NOTHING SPECIAL.
>
> You have to ask yourself why did the ancient Egyptians differentiate
> themselves from all these groups ?
>
WHY DO GERMANS DIFFERENTIATE THEMSELVES FROM FRENCH?
BECAUSE OF CULTURE.NOT RACE.
AND I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY NEXT....
WHY DID ANCIENT EGYPTIANS PAINT THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY
(SKIN COLOURS) FROM OTHER GROUPS.
THIS HAD **NOTHING** TO DO WITH RACE AS ANY BODY
WITH ANY KNOWLEDGE OF EGYPT WOULD TELL YOU.
YOU WILL FIND (I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT DYNASTY IT STARTED)
THAT MOST MEN ARE PAINTED IN ONE PARTICULAR SHADE OF
REDDISH BROWN WHILE WOMEN ARE USUALLY PAINTED A
YELLOW COMPLEXION. MEANWHILE ALL NON EGYPTIANS
ARE PAINTED WITH ALL VARIATIONS IN SKIN TONES WITHIN
THEIR RACE .
THE EGYPTIANS DID NOT HAVE A RACE OF REDDISH BROWN
MALES AND YELLOW SKINNED FEMALES. THIS WAS
ASSOCIATED TO THEIR BELIEFS.
ANYWAY POPULATION WISE THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE
SOONER OR LATER THROUGH REPRODUCTION THE
THE NEXT GENERTIONS WOULD BE A MIXTURE
OF TONES INBETWEEN REDDISH BROWNS AND
YELLOWS
> However, maybe these Nubian discoveries will tempt you to leave this
newsgroup
> and create a new newsgroup: soc.culture.ancient-nubia and take your
discussions there.
>
BUT MUSSY BABY, YOU'D BE SO LONELY!
>
> Moustafa
>
> P.S.
> You seem also to have forgotton to read the passage in the article that
says:
>
> T> Not all archaeologists are prepared to go that far. But there is now
> T> enough evidence for a scientific consensus that ancient Nubia,
> T> beginning in the Stone Age, developed its own distinct
> T> civilization--or rather, a series of overlapping
> T> civilizations--influenced by Africa, Arabia and the Sahara as well as
> T> by Egypt.
BY AFRICA. *OBVIOUSLY*! IT'S IN AFRICA!
8000 B.C THERE WERE OTHER AFRICAN GROUPS IN THE SAHARA
BY EGYPT(KEMET), *MUCH*, MUCH LATER CONSIDERING IT'S OLDER
THAN EGYPT.
AS FOR ARABIA, TRADE MAYBE, ARABIA DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING
SIMILAR TO NUBIA.ANYWAY I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP MY
HEAD THE STATE OF THE ARABIAN PENINISULAR AT 8000 B.C
WEREN'T THEY STILL GROUPS OF TRIBES AT THAT TIME.
> T> even more clues to the origins of African culture than does Egypt,
> T> which, because of its unique position abutting Asia and the
> T> Mediterranean, is regarded by many archaeologists as having developed
> T> independently from the rest of the continent.
>
IF YOU READ ANY OF THE *RECENT* ( LAST 5-8 YEARS) BOOKS ON EGYPT,
YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THIS OPINION IS NOT ONLY UNDER SERIOUS
ASSAULT FROM OTHER ARCHEOLOGISTS BUT IS CHANGING.
AS YOU CAN SEE, MORE AND MORE DICOVERIES ARE BEING
FOUND ALL THE TIME.
"H",
LONDON MASSIVE.
Chris Metcalf
Egyptians are African. Listen closely. Africa is a continent.
Everything within it is a country. Africa is not a country. It's like
saying "My uncle was born and raised in Texas, but you can tell by some
of his characteristics that he is from an American origin."
Chris Metcalf
Egyptians are more African in origin? Could it be because Egypt is in
...AFRICA!!!!!!