Pinochet free as a bird
Zoran Brlecic
headed home to Chile on Thursday, after British Home Secretary Jack Straw ruled
against extraditing him to Spain to stand trial for torture and other human
rights violations.
Two hours after Straw's announcement, Pinochet traveled in a motorcade to Royal
Air Force base in Waddington, England, from the secluded estate where he had
been staying in Wentworth, outside of London. He boarded a waiting Chilean air
force plane to take the 17-hour trip home. His plane was expected to make a
refueling stop in the Caribbean.
=== === ===
Is it realistic to now expect sanctions against Great Britain (or at least
withdrawals of the diplomats from London) or am I being too naive? What moral
grounds do these "lords" have to condemn Austria after this?
In any case - fuck all of you, goddamn hypocrites!!! You'll recognize
yourselves.
Zoran
--
Support freedom of speech, or I'll kill you!
Zvonimir Siljkovic
insurgents. It is no accident that today Chile is a economic leader in the
region! He is a great man. Saved his nation from ruin and help bring it to
economic prosperity and democracy!
--
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Stanciceva 11
3 Kat
Zagreb Medvescak 10000
hus...@msn.com
"Zoran Brlecic" <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:38BEA048...@earthlink.net...
Zoran Brlecic
> What's your beef with Pinochet. He saved his nation from communist godless
> insurgents.
The crime against humanity is in the eye of a beholder. Thus, Pinochet is a hero
to some, while some others celebrate Stalin as a true liberator and a
humanitarian. In both cases people died like dogs and the difference is in
numbers only, certainly not in methods. I for one don't differentiate between
the murder of a "communist" and the murder of a "kulak". The political opinion
of the victim does not excuse his killer.
> It is no accident that today Chile is a economic leader in the
> region! He is a great man. Saved his nation from ruin and help bring it to
> economic prosperity and democracy!
Replace the word "Chile" with "USSR" or "Third Reich" and put it in the proper
historical context, and it will make as much sense. I shit on the man who can
"bring prosperity and democracy" only by mass murders. In any case, had
Milosevic succeeded in his bloody quest, he would have been revered by many as a
great savior of the Yugoslav nation. Something to think about.
John
<zbrl...@earthlink.net> writes
>
>Is it realistic to now expect sanctions against Great Britain (or at least
>withdrawals of the diplomats from London) or am I being too naive? What moral
>grounds do these "lords" have to condemn Austria after this?
>
to the International Court for not upholding international law.
--
John
John
<hus...@email.msn.com> writes
>What's your beef with Pinochet. He saved his nation from communist godless
>insurgents.
As Hitler claimed to do; would you have supported him?
> It is no accident that today Chile is a economic leader in the
>region!
Mussolini made the trains run on time; would you have supported him?
>He is a great man.
3000 "disappeared" people and countless torture victims disagree with
you.
--
John
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Nitin
United Nations Human Rights Commissioner, Mary Robinson, has praised
Senegal's action in indicting the former President of Chad, Hissene Habre,
on charges of complicity in torture.
In a statement issued by the UN in New York, Mrs Robinson said the
indictment warned human rights abusers - even the highest representatives
of the state - that they could no longer count on a quiet retirement.
She said: "Those who commit, order or tolerate torture and other gross
human rights violations can no longer be sure of a peaceful retirement.
UN Human Rights Commissioner Mary Robinson
Habre has lived in exile in the Senegalese capital since he was overthrown
in a French-backed coup in 1990 after eight years in office.
Seven human rights groups have filed a criminal complaint on behalf of
tens of thousands of people they say were tortured or killed by Habre's
men.
They said they had been inspired by the legal battle in Britain for the
extradition of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet to face torture
charges in Spain stemming from his rule from 1973 to 1990.
International crime
Mrs Robinson said the decision to indict Habre is "further confirmation
that torture is an international crime subject to universal jurisdiction.
"Survivors of human rights abuses the world over can take heart in knowing
that impunity for torture and other human rights violations is no longer
the norm, even when those accused are the highest representatives of the
state.''
The indictment sets the stage for Africa's first Pinochet-style human
rights trial.
Habre on trial
Evidence of 97 killings
Claims of 40,000 murders
Habre regime was backed by US
It is the first time a former African head of state has been brought to
court in another country on human rights offences.
Lawyers said it could be a test case on a continent where such abuses of
power have been rife.
"He has been indicted and placed under house arrest for acts of torture
and barbarity," said Boucounta Diallo, a lawyer acting for human rights
groups that brought the case. o date has been set for the trial.
US backing
Hissen Habre ruled the Sahara Desert state with the backing of the United
States, which at the time saw him as a counterbalance to Colonel Gaddafi
of Libya.
Ibrahim Kane, a Senegalese human rights activist, said Chad's current
rulers "were working with Habre so it was really difficult for them to try
him in his own country, so the best way was to try him in Senegal.
But the present Chad government last week claimed credit for unearthing
the evidence again the former ruler.
It said it had wanted to try Habre at home but had failed to persuade the
Senegalese authorities to extradite him.
'Murders'
A commission it set up in 1991 accused Habre's administration of being
responsible for 40,000 political murders and 200,000 cases of torture.
Human rights groups say they have detailed 97 cases of political killings,
142 cases of torture and 100 "disappearances".
Habre's case opened in a regional Dakar court on January 28.
He made no comment on leaving the court, but his lawyer has said the
former leader denies the charges, blaming them on "political
machinations".
Nitin
Former Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and six others have
pleaded not guilty to hijacking, abduction, attempted murder and
terrorism. All the accused face the death penalty if convicted.
Vlado Bevc
to Pinochet, a non-communist, and communists like Ribicic, Dolanc, Drnovsek,
etc., who have comitted crimes against humanity. Nobody ever even suggested
that any communists be held accountable for their crimes. So why pick on
Pinochet?
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Vlado Bevc <ako...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:esIHTvLh$GA.272@cpmsnbbsa03...
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Zoran Brlecic
> I think that yes the magic differentiation is in the numbers. How many died in the Chile Civil War? 3000. That's nothing. How many die of traffic accidents.
Oh, well, only three thousand. Okey-dokey then. If somebody brutally murders your child one day and you don't even find out where his/her body has been dumped, take comfort in the fact that it is only one person, and that many more die in traffic accidents. Leave the murderer alone.
> I think to equate 3,000 dead in a political struggle with millions of deaths from Stalin or Hitler or Mao or Pol Pot or Slobodan is ridiculous.
Why? Because those five were much more efficient in killing? So, what is the cutoff figure after which the killings become officially sanctioned? Or does it all depend on the eventual economic success of the country, whereby if the GDP increases by a certain percentage, all is forgiven?
> I think that when one accurately looks at all of Central America and South America, one comes out that Chile went through the period with greatest leadership. Chile came out of it with a democratic, peaceful and prosperous nation and institutions. Can you argue with the results.
No, and since no one is accusing Pinochet of wrongful leadership but of murder, you objection is overruled.
> How many died in Argentina? Brazil? Peru? Columbia? Nicaragua? El Salvador? Honduras?
What the fuck has that got to do with anything? This is your defense of him? If you're gonna play the devil's advocate, at least try to come up with something that makes sense.
> Pinochet killed people. Yes. But that is what he and Chile supported. The fact of the matter is that he had a support of the majority of the populace. He protected what he felt was the interests of the people of Chile. He cracked heads. But that's what happens in all civil wars and major political battles. The fact of the matter is that he had support for his actions by the western world. He was on the frontlines for democracy and capitalism. How many died in Budapest when the Russian rolled in. Cuba? Look at Cuba today!
This is too stupid to even comment. I'm not even bothering saying how much support Hitler had, and that one mass murder does not excuse another. These things are all self-evident. You simply like one murderer because he "killed communists". Fine. Don't think that supporting that cause makes you right, 'cause it doesn't.
I guess the only problem with Austria today is in the fact that Heider didn't herd and slaughter some three thousand communists and kiss ass of the multinational US and British corporations in the process. He dared to say what the politically correct British m'lords didn't like. As a result, foreign diplomats are withdrawn from Vienna, but who gives a fuck about some 3000 Chileans and a bunch of foreign pinkos, eh? There's more where those came from, right?
So, in conclusion: you can kill, maim and murder as much as you want, but as long as you keep singing the phony British humanitarian tune, you'll be a good old boy.
God save the Queen. He sure did a lousy job saving those Chileans.
Jakov Nissim
It is quite clear that Croats are always ready to talk about somebody's
else crime than about the crimes of their people. That man (Berlecic)
asks is it realistic to expect sanctions against GB then makes some
comparison with contemporary Austria. Utter nonsense! Pinochet is
heading to Chile - the place where he committed the crime. I hope that
Chileans will find the way to bring this monster to the court soon.
How about Croatia whose crime against other people is, at least, 200
times bigger than that one committed by Pinochet? Why Tudjman was not
brought before any court for the crime that is, at least, bigger than
Pinochet's? More than 2000 monuments, graveyards of the anti-fascist
fighters are destroyed or desecrated by "unknown" Croatians. Cemeteries
across Croatia are full of the graves of the "unknown" people killed by
Croatian soldiers. Why killers are celebrated as heroes in contemporary
Croatia?
Once more - why Croats are so eager to discuss somebody's else crime
and too much offended if someone points at their direction as to the
crime committed?
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
POWPOW
Vlado Bevc <ako...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:esIHTvLh$GA.272@cpmsnbbsa03...
> Zoran Brlecic apparently thinks that different standards should be applied
> to Pinochet, a non-communist, and communists like Ribicic, Dolanc,
Drnovsek,
> etc., who have comitted crimes against humanity. Nobody ever even
suggested
> that any communists be held accountable for their crimes. So why pick on
> Pinochet?
Crimes against humanity, committed by any person or regime, should not be
tolerated.
Pinochet earned his reputation as a bloody ghoul, and his infamy is
deserved. I don't know if you can compare his resume with those of the
gentlemen above, but try telling that to the families of thousands of
Chileans who were tortured and murdered as a direct result of Pinochet being
in control.
Communist dictators hold a special place in my heart (hah!), and should be
held accountable and stand trial for their crimes against humanity, too.
But Pinochet should not get away with any of his dastardly deeds just
because he happens to be old.
Zoran Brlecic
> Zoran Brlecic apparently thinks that different standards should be applied
> to Pinochet
No, Zoran Brlecic actually speaks out against double standards that Great
Britain is applying with this ruling. On the one hand they're condemning
Austrians for democratically electing a party whose only crime so far is a
verbal one (and even that is questionable), and on the other they're releasing
the murderer, blatantly ignoring the requests for deportation from the very same
European community in whose democratic institutions they so firmly believe, but
only to the point of protecting the murdering scum they call friends.
> , a non-communist, and communists like Ribicic, Dolanc, Drnovsek,
> etc., who have comitted crimes against humanity. Nobody ever even suggested
> that any communists be held accountable for their crimes. So why pick on
> Pinochet?
What is wrong with you, people? You're not the first one pulling that twisted
logic today - "why pick on Pinochet when there are worse murderers". The fact
that there are some other people you would like to see hanging before him does
not excuse his crimes against humanity. Is that so hard to absolve? Are we all
ready to attend Common Decency And Justice 101?
Zoran Brlecic
> It is quite clear that Croats are always ready to talk about somebody's
> else crime than about the crimes of their people. That man (Berlecic)
> asks is it realistic to expect sanctions against GB then makes some
> comparison with contemporary Austria. Utter nonsense! Pinochet is
> heading to Chile - the place where he committed the crime. I hope that
> Chileans will find the way to bring this monster to the court soon.
Egads! You can't even make out from a few simple sentences what point someone is
trying to make. If your obsession with Croats is the best you can come up with,
methinks you'd be better off keeping quiet.
> How about Croatia whose crime against other people is, at least, 200
> times bigger than that one committed by Pinochet? Why Tudjman was not
> brought before any court for the crime that is, at least, bigger than
> Pinochet's? More than 2000 monuments, graveyards of the anti-fascist
> fighters are destroyed or desecrated by "unknown" Croatians. Cemeteries
> across Croatia are full of the graves of the "unknown" people killed by
> Croatian soldiers. Why killers are celebrated as heroes in contemporary
> Croatia?
Get lost, you hypocrite. Had Pinochet murdered just one Jew, you would have
screamed bloody murder and asked for his scalp. Since he hasn't, all you do here
is vent your anti-Croatian schizophrenia, as if my nationality has anything to
do with the point I was trying to make. I am sickened by the selective approach
you people have - no one matters but your ass.
> Once more - why Croats are so eager to discuss somebody's else crime
> and too much offended if someone points at their direction as to the
> crime committed?
Once more - why some people are too eager to slap a label on a nation and a
country based on the deeds of a few, is beyond me. And now pay attention. I am
going to explain once again, since I am obviously dealing with a mentally
challenged person: Great Britain feels it is morally justifiable to harass a
small central-european country for democratically electing a dubious party to
its parliament, but Great Britain does not feel it is morally wrong to release a
brutal murderer from any responsibility, even though other European countries
asked for his deportation in order to stand trial. What my nationality has got
to do with this case only you know, and probably your fellow Ephraim from whom
we haven't heard yet, but surely will.
Jakov Nissim
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Egads! You can't even make out from a few simple sentences what point
someone is
> trying to make. If your obsession with Croats is the best you can
come up with,
> methinks you'd be better off keeping quiet.
Your point (and a few of yours) od view is quite clear to me. I didn't
invade soc.culture.croatia trying to explain somebody's else crime -
period! Many times I saw your posts (and those of your comrades) at
soc.culture.usa, soc.culture.israel, etc "explaining" how murderous
were Serbs, Americans, Britons. Do I need your "knowledge" at all? If
you think so, then my response cannot be different than that one you're
accustomed to see.
>
>
> Get lost, you hypocrite. Had Pinochet murdered just one Jew, you
would have
> screamed bloody murder and asked for his scalp. Since he hasn't, all
you do here
> is vent your anti-Croatian schizophrenia, as if my nationality has
anything to
> do with the point I was trying to make. I am sickened by the
selective approach
> you people have - no one matters but your ass.
Apply the text above to yourself and you'll get the right answers.
Before entering any discussion try to learn a simple fact - your
opponents in the discussion will respect you up to the level of your
own honesty. The honesty is the main missing thing in all of your
posts.
>
> > Once more - why Croats are so eager to discuss somebody's else
crime
> > and too much offended if someone points at their direction as to
the
> > crime committed?
>
> Once more - why some people are too eager to slap a label on a nation
and a
> country based on the deeds of a few, is beyond me.
Ask this question your own compatriots - for example Siljkovic or
Marjanovich. Based on the deeds of a few - you say? Your "a few" equals
to 200 000 and almost unanimous support of the rest of your (Croatian)
compatriots. Your Dinko Sakic says so. Himmler said so, Neubacher said
so.
>And now pay
attention. I am
> going to explain once again, since I am obviously dealing with a
mentally
> challenged person: Great Britain feels it is morally justifiable to
harass a
> small central-european country for democratically electing a dubious
party to
> its parliament, but Great Britain does not feel it is morally wrong
to release a
> brutal murderer from any responsibility, even though other European
countries
> asked for his deportation in order to stand trial. What my
nationality has got
> to do with this case only you know, and probably your fellow Ephraim
from whom
> we haven't heard yet, but surely will.
All the above is just a primitive excuse and attempt to divert
attention to the quite secondary things. As to the double standards -
that is just a slogan that does not have true meaning. As I know very
well is - the contemporary history of your people says a lot - the mass
killings in Croatia attempted to be painted as unreal and a product of
somebody's propaganda and relativized through "explanation" of the
criminal deeds of the other nations. What kind of standard it may be?
Ephraim195
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I)
>X-Accept-Language: en,hr
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia, soc.culture.europe, soc.culture.austria,
>What is wrong with you, people? You're not the first one pulling that twisted
>logic today - "why pick on Pinochet when there are worse murderers".
Twisted logic? Learn the very simple fact you numbskull - The first comes
first. Don't ever try to outsmart anyone as to this issue - for you have to see
your own people first, learn about them as much as you can - then pass any
judgement about others. Otherwise you'll be hardly ever accepted as a serious
person.
> The fact
>that there are some other people you would like to see hanging before him
>does
>not excuse his crimes against humanity. Is that so hard to absolve?
Nobody says so. Both the question and the answer are yours. Is it hard for you
to absolve it?
Maks Luburic
Ephraim195 <ephra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000303015644...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
I cordially invite you to the reopening of my summer camp on the banks of
the Sava. You seem to have a fascination with the place. You will be
accorded VIP status. See you there!!!
Zoran Brlecic
> > Egads! You can't even make out from a few simple sentences what point
> someone is
> > trying to make. If your obsession with Croats is the best you can
> come up with,
> > methinks you'd be better off keeping quiet.
>
> Your point (and a few of yours) od view is quite clear to me. I didn't
> invade soc.culture.croatia trying to explain somebody's else crime -
> period! Many times I saw your posts (and those of your comrades) at
> soc.culture.usa, soc.culture.israel, etc "explaining" how murderous
> were Serbs, Americans, Britons.
Substantiate this claim (about me "invading" other groups etc.) or shut up. If I
have ever "invaded" any groups, it has always been as a response to double
standards that people like you not only take for granted, but actually consider
normal and moral. You, however, much like your alter-ego Ephraim, regularly
contribute to s.c.croatia by spreading your pompous hollier-than-thou attitude,
no doubt picked up by following the very same methods the British m'lords use.
Well, zip-a-dee-doo-dah, it looks like not only Croats do not hold a patent on
murder, but they actually bring some war criminals to justice, unlike the Not So
Great Britain.
> Do I need your "knowledge" at all? If
> you think so, then my response cannot be different than that one you're
> accustomed to see.
I don't care what you need. Astonishing as this might sound, this thread is
*not* about you! The sun will rise tomorrow and it will not revolve around you.
I know this is hard to understand for you, since this is how you were raised,
but it is still so.
> > Get lost, you hypocrite. Had Pinochet murdered just one Jew, you
> would have
> > screamed bloody murder and asked for his scalp. Since he hasn't, all
> you do here
> > is vent your anti-Croatian schizophrenia, as if my nationality has
> anything to
> > do with the point I was trying to make. I am sickened by the
> selective approach
> > you people have - no one matters but your ass.
>
> Apply the text above to yourself and you'll get the right answers.
I have all the answers I need. The thread was started with one question only,
and even that one was rhetoric. Indeed, if you think that what was happening in
the FYU in the last 10 years was scandalous, take a look at what the so-called
democratic world has done about it and maybe you'll begin to see that war
criminals were not only those with guns in their hands.
> Before entering any discussion try to learn a simple fact - your
> opponents in the discussion will respect you up to the level of your
> own honesty. The honesty is the main missing thing in all of your
> posts.
How so? When you make a claim, it would help a lot if you could prove it.
Otherwise, the phrase "learn a simple fact" means nothing. Simply empty babbling
just like the rest of your posts.
> > > Once more - why Croats are so eager to discuss somebody's else
> crime
> > > and too much offended if someone points at their direction as to
> the
> > > crime committed?
> >
> > Once more - why some people are too eager to slap a label on a nation
> and a
> > country based on the deeds of a few, is beyond me.
>
> Ask this question your own compatriots - for example Siljkovic or
> Marjanovich.
I have discussed with them plenty, and even so - what am I, their daddy? They,
much like you and I, have a right to their own opinion, and whatever that
opinion is, it certainly does not make it the official "Croatian opinion"
(whatever the hell that might be). Besides, that's got nothing to do with the
fact that a murderer has just been absolved of his crimes.
> Based on the deeds of a few - you say? Your "a few" equals
> to 200 000 and almost unanimous support of the rest of your (Croatian)
> compatriots. Your Dinko Sakic says so. Himmler said so, Neubacher said
> so.
Blablabla, when in doubt, pull 1941 and throw in a few German sounding names. Go
shove it up your ass and sell your guilt to someone who needs it.
> >And now pay
> attention. I am
> > going to explain once again, since I am obviously dealing with a
> mentally
> > challenged person: Great Britain feels it is morally justifiable to
> harass a
> > small central-european country for democratically electing a dubious
> party to
> > its parliament, but Great Britain does not feel it is morally wrong
> to release a
> > brutal murderer from any responsibility, even though other European
> countries
> > asked for his deportation in order to stand trial. What my
> nationality has got
> > to do with this case only you know, and probably your fellow Ephraim
> from whom
> > we haven't heard yet, but surely will.
>
> All the above is just a primitive excuse and attempt to divert
> attention to the quite secondary things.
What on earth are you talking about? I haven't read so much talk without a point
in a long time.
> As to the double standards -
> that is just a slogan that does not have true meaning.
It doesn't? So when Not So Great Britain pulls her ambassador out of Vienna to
protest Heider (a verbal criminal), and later releases Pinochet (the actual
criminal), that is not a double standard?
> As I know very
> well is - the contemporary history of your people says a lot - the mass
> killings in Croatia attempted to be painted as unreal and a product of
> somebody's propaganda and relativized through "explanation" of the
> criminal deeds of the other nations. What kind of standard it may be?
Blablabla, how to take a totally unrelated thread and turn it into the
Croat-Nazi-propaganda obsession. What is your *other* hobby? Scaring little
girls by exposing yourself? Quick, go see if there are some Croats posting in
alt.sex.bestiality and turn the goat-fucking thread into the discussion about
Sakic and Jasenovac. It hasn't been cheapened enough by loudmouths like you.
Zoran Brlecic
Ephraim195 wrote:
> >What is wrong with you, people? You're not the first one pulling that twisted
> >logic today - "why pick on Pinochet when there are worse murderers".
>
> Twisted logic? Learn the very simple fact you numbskull - The first comes
> first. Don't ever try to outsmart anyone as to this issue - for you have to see
> your own people first, learn about them as much as you can - then pass any
> judgement about others. Otherwise you'll be hardly ever accepted as a serious
> person.
Phhahahahaha. Ozbiljan kao ti? Jebote, djeca ti se smiju po ulici koliko si glup.
Ti si Internet ekvivalent starog jarca koji u deliriju mrtav pijan lezi u lokvi
vlastite pisaline, urla i stapom prijeti djeci koja ga gadjaju kosticama. Ravno za
neki Fellinijev film.
> > The fact
> >that there are some other people you would like to see hanging before him
> >does
> >not excuse his crimes against humanity. Is that so hard to absolve?
>
> Nobody says so. Both the question and the answer are yours. Is it hard for you
> to absolve it?
Uopce se ne radi o prioritetima, osim u bolesnim glavama koje smatraju kako je
najprije potrebno pobiti 99% Hrvata a tek onda se pozabaviti ostalim "navodnim"
kriminalcima.
Da sam ja na tvojem mjestu, nebih vise radio budalu od sebe. Za ljude kao sto si
ti, Internet i mogucnost globalne komunikacije su prokletstvo.
alexander rauscher
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Zvonimir Siljkovic wrote:
> What's your beef with Pinochet. He saved his nation from communist godless
> insurgents. It is no accident that today Chile is a economic leader in the
> region! He is a great man. Saved his nation from ruin and help bring it to
> economic prosperity and democracy!
and he let torture people , what an achievement.
>
> --
> Zvonimir Siljkovic
> Stanciceva 11
> 3 Kat
> Zagreb Medvescak 10000
> hus...@msn.com
>
>
> "Zoran Brlecic" <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:38BEA048...@earthlink.net...
> > CNN, March 2 - Former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet flew out of
> England and
> > headed home to Chile on Thursday, after British Home Secretary Jack Straw
> ruled
> > against extraditing him to Spain to stand trial for torture and other
> human
> > rights violations.
> > Two hours after Straw's announcement, Pinochet traveled in a motorcade to
> Royal
> > Air Force base in Waddington, England, from the secluded estate where he
> had
> > been staying in Wentworth, outside of London. He boarded a waiting Chilean
> air
> > force plane to take the 17-hour trip home. His plane was expected to make
> a
> > refueling stop in the Caribbean.
> >
> > === === ===
> >
> > Is it realistic to now expect sanctions against Great Britain (or at least
> > withdrawals of the diplomats from London) or am I being too naive? What
> moral
> > grounds do these "lords" have to condemn Austria after this?
> >
> > In any case - fuck all of you, goddamn hypocrites!!! You'll recognize
> > yourselves.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoran
> >
Mirko_Djuric/id=mmdjuric
>
> Ja o vuku, a konj na vrata:
>
Eda, co'ce, ti njemu sve lijepo skresa u brk na svome lijepome
hrvatskom. Blago tebe,
nece moci da ista razumije. A nu, junace, sto ne bi ti sve to lijepo
preveo na engleski
pa turio nazad na soc.culture.croatia da vise ljudi vidi koliko si ti
pametan a on budalast?
Zoran Brlecic
> Eda, co'ce, ti njemu sve lijepo skresa u brk na svome lijepome
> hrvatskom. Blago tebe,
> nece moci da ista razumije. A nu, junace, sto ne bi ti sve to lijepo
> preveo na engleski
> pa turio nazad na soc.culture.croatia da vise ljudi vidi koliko si ti
> pametan a on budalast?
Sve sto ide njega, vazi i za tebe, a sto se tice njegovog poznavanja hrvatskog,
covjek koji provodi dane i noci na s.c.c. godinama uporno saljuci nekakve
hutucroatvatican majmunarije, trebao bi vec znati dovoljno jezika da razumije
sto mu se kaze, cak i da nije srpskog porijekla, u sto sumnjam.
Mirko_Djuric/id=mmdjuric
>
> Sve sto ide njega, vazi i za tebe,
A sto to, jadan ne bio? Ako je tebe jasno sto bi to bilo - napisi odje!
> a sto se tice njegovog poznavanja hrvatskog,
Hrvatskog rece? Sto 'oces od co'eka, jado? Jos ni vi nijeste uspjeli da
taj vas novorijek
potpuno naucite a 'oces da te razumije neko ko je Jevrejin. E, obraza
ti, nijesu ni
oni svi Ajnstajni!
> covjek koji provodi dane i noci na s.c.c. godinama uporno saljuci nekakve
> hutucroatvatican majmunarije, trebao bi vec znati dovoljno jezika da razumije
> sto mu se kaze, cak i da nije srpskog porijekla, u sto sumnjam.
Neka je ziv i zdrav - pa ko god da je. Ako je sve k'o sto ti rece - sto
vi je za brigu
njegovo pisanije? Nekakov razlog ima sto ste mu crnji od onijeh u
Afriku. On vi
ponudi nekakvu okladu - sto mu ne uzeste pare, ako je ko sto ti se cini?
Victor Querosene
Jakov Nissim <jakov...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
89nn23$t1s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> All the above is just a primitive excuse and attempt to divert
> that is just a slogan that does not have true meaning. As I know very
> well is - the contemporary history of your people says a lot - the mass
> killings in Croatia attempted to be painted as unreal and a product of
> somebody's propaganda and relativized through "explanation" of the
> criminal deeds of the other nations. What kind of standard it may be?
>
Hey, what about the contemporary history of YOUR nation? It's surprising to
see how a nation that suffered so much under the boot of nazism is applying
the same nazi tactics to another nation --Palestinians.
Don't get me wrong; I have nothing against you. But no nation is better or
worse than other. The same things you are reproaching to Zoran Brlecic could
be reproached to you by someone who pays more attention to the nationality
of people than to their ideas. Please, let's not miss the point.
Victor Querosene
Ja sam spanjolski, a meni je tuzno da je vlada moje zemlje cinila sve da je
moguc za zaprijeciti radnju sudije Baltasara Garzona, koji je bio prva
sudija na traziti Pinochetovu ekstradiciju.
Sorry for my bad Croatian.
I am Spanish, and for me it's sad that the government of my country has done
all that it's possible to avoid the work of the judge Baltasar Garzon, who
was the first judge to demand Pinochet's extradition.
A golden opportunity is lost.
R.V. Gronoff
"Zoran Brlecic" <zbrl...@earthlink.net> a écrit dans le message news:
> Support freedom of speech, or I'll kill you!
>
>
Sounds like you're starting to understand...
Anyway, even if the cause of true humanism (which is not incompatible with
Christian faith and practice, far from that) is politically lost in today
world, we MUST choose the side of man against all tyranny and anti-human
politics and practices. The French folks who went to Britain to join the FFL
in 1940-41 had no idea if they could defeat nazi Germany or not. But the
point was to fight against naziism even to death. Period.
Maybe today, in the name of humanity and democracy, we must fight against
the whole system that dares call itself humanistic and democratic and though
protects snakes like Pinochet - like they covered and protected Franco and
Pavelic yesterday.
I hope some true Chilean patriots and justice lovers will be able to do
their duty before this old trash dies.
With all my sympathy and respects for the families of his victims.
R.V. Gronoff
Victor Querosene
Zvonimir Siljkovic <hus...@email.msn.com> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias #svRcSMh$GA.70@cpmsnbbsa02...
> If you ignore the fact that many were leftist cells and bands that
terrorized Chile and that he had >the support of the Chilean people and
legislature. That what you get when you try through terror >to impose your
will on the majority. Allende 36% tried to impose a communist regime on all
of >Chile. Allende picked Pinochet as his General staff because he thought
Pinochet would be a >loyal puppy who would stand aside as Allende took his
country to ruin and communism. >Pinochet had the balls to standby up, defend
Chile and eliminate elements who wished to destroy >Chile. And what you have
today as a product of his work, a free prosperous democratic Chile! >Thank
You Pinochet!
>
You're a damned liar. Allende was the LEGAL, DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED
PRESIDENT of Chile. Pinochet didn't have any balls, he was just CIA's
puppet.
POWPOW
Mirko_Djuric/id=mmdjuric <mmdj...@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:38C004...@lucent.com...
> A sto to, jadan ne bio? Ako je tebe jasno sto bi to bilo - napisi odje!
>
> taj vas novorijek
> potpuno naucite a 'oces da te razumije neko ko je Jevrejin. E, obraza
> ti, nijesu ni
> oni svi Ajnstajni!
>
> vi je za brigu
> njegovo pisanije? Nekakov razlog ima sto ste mu crnji od onijeh u
> Afriku. On vi
> ponudi nekakvu okladu - sto mu ne uzeste pare, ako je ko sto ti se cini?
Iz ciste radoznalosti, koja je ovo spika? Kaj je to glagoljica? sanskrit?
crnogorsko-srpski?
Jakov Nissim
"Victor Querosene" <ap...@sumi.es> wrote:
>
> Jakov Nissim <jakov...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias
> 89nn23$t1s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Hey, what about the contemporary history of YOUR nation? It's
surprising to
> see how a nation that suffered so much under the boot of nazism is
applying
> the same nazi tactics to another nation --Palestinians.
Palestinians!? Palestine is just the ancient Roman name for the
territory of the contemporary state of Israel. If you refer to the
Arabs living in Israel - then I'll tell you what. There is cca 1.8
million (out of 6 million) Arabs living in Israel. They are lawful
citizens of the state of Israel, they have their own political parties
and
representatives in the Israeli government. They run their own
businesses, schools, universities (more precisely - four universities).
All those who obey to the law of the state of Israel enjoy the same
rights
no matter are they Jews or Arabs.
As to "the same nazi tactics", please, give us examples or consequences
of the tactics you are talking about.
>
> Don't get me wrong; I have nothing against you. But no nation is
better or
> worse than other. The same things you are reproaching to Zoran
Brlecic could
> be reproached to you by someone who pays more attention to the
nationality
> of people than to their ideas. Please, let's not miss the point.
All the above is far from the truth. When you answer the question I've
asked you, I'll give you quite clear explanation of the "ideas" and
"nations".
Please, if you like to keep up honesty to a some respectable level, do
not keep this mask of impartiality over your face.
Jakov Nissim
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I don't care what you need. Astonishing as this might sound, this
thread is
> *not* about you! The sun will rise tomorrow and it will not revolve
around you.
> I know this is hard to understand for you, since this is how you were
raised,
> but it is still so.
I thought whenever a man publishes (posts, in this case) some message -
he targets a number of readers. So, next time, say, for example, this
is a monolog or, I'd like to be praised as a wise man. In that case my
reply to your post won't come out.
njo...@my-deja.com
Zoran, I usually agree 100% with you. This is an exception. I
respectfully disagree.
The old general saved his country from communisation. Communists
in power understand only one language, much like Milosevic. With some
people there is no discussion. As Martin Luther said: "Kill them like
rabid dogs." This is unpleasant but true.
Did innocent people die? Probably. Do innocent people die in every
civil war? Yes. Should someone do something about that? This is
Chilean internal matter, and Chile has determined, much like Spain, that
national reconciliation is worth more than chasing a few old men. Who
is Baltazar Garzon to ignore the democratic consensus of Chilean people?
And don't let me even begin about the typical British perfidy of issuing
the old general a diplomatic visa and then ignoring his diplomatic
status. Even the Nazis and Stalin (most of the time) honored diplomatic
privileges. This was a throwback to the times when envoys were at the
mercy of the host state and were often just glorified hostages.
I am quite proud in saying: Viva Pinochet!
Zoran Brlecic
> > I don't care what you need. Astonishing as this might sound, this thread is
> > *not* about you! The sun will rise tomorrow and it will not revolve around
> you.
> > I know this is hard to understand for you, since this is how you were
> raised,
> > but it is still so.
>
> I thought whenever a man publishes (posts, in this case) some message -
> he targets a number of readers.
Number is the key word, whereas you were complaining how *you* didn't need "my
knowledge". Ergo - I don't care what you need, since my post was not a private
correspondence to you.
> So, next time, say, for example, this
> is a monolog or, I'd like to be praised as a wise man. In that case my
> reply to your post won't come out.
You seem to be forgetting an even more important factor for publishing/posting:
a point that the originator is trying to make. While my point was painfully
clear to anyone who read my original post, your posts chronically suffer from
the lack of it, unless one considers your obsession with the 1941 ISC Nazi
creation a point.
Only this can explain how the clearly defined topic of Pinochet being let off
the hook for his murders can be turned into the "discussion" about the Nazi
crimes in the 1941 Croatian puppet state.
I, for one, am of the opinion that someone who is not able to accept that other
people have topics and interests which don't necessarily include his own, very
limited, egocentric and rude. Furthermore, I also think that judging people
strictly by their nationalities and forbidding them to speak out if they happen
to be on your black list, is primitive, uncivilized and counterproductive. And,
last but not least, remember that you do not hold a patent for truth and
justice, even though at times you might think that you do.
Zoran Brlecic
> Zoran, I usually agree 100% with you. This is an exception. I
> respectfully disagree.
Right back at you, Njofra.
Actually, I am surprised that you would not share my point of view in this case,
since you seem to be somewhat of a legalist. In my opinion, the case is simple:
Spain, Belgium and others asked for his extradition and Not So Great Britain
decided to moon them instead, while at the same time playing an ultra-civilized
democrat in the Austria case.
Without actually going too deep into what Pinochet has done, the case is a very
simple legal matter, with various moral implications, not the last of which is
the latest 45-year sentence in the Hague.
> The old general saved his country from communisation. Communists
> in power understand only one language, much like Milosevic. With some
> people there is no discussion. As Martin Luther said: "Kill them like
> rabid dogs." This is unpleasant but true.
As I said before, human rights abuses are in the eye of a beholder. South
America is the last region on Earth where one can apply the anti-communist
sentiment with such broad strokes. All of those countries suffered horrible
military juntas, fascists, dictators, CIA puppets and murderers of all sorts,
and as a result, communism surely sounded too good to be passed on, to some. I
fail to see how Pinochet is different from Somoza, Trujillo and others. Sheer
number of gallons of blood spilled?
> Did innocent people die? Probably. Do innocent people die in every
> civil war? Yes. Should someone do something about that? This is
> Chilean internal matter, and Chile has determined, much like Spain, that
> national reconciliation is worth more than chasing a few old men. Who
> is Baltazar Garzon to ignore the democratic consensus of Chilean people?
Never mind that. Spain wanted him for allegedly causing death to some of their
nationals, and he should have been extradited in order to stand trial in a fully
democratic and law-abiding country. End of story. It does not matter whether he
saved one thing or other.
> And don't let me even begin about the typical British perfidy of issuing
> the old general a diplomatic visa and then ignoring his diplomatic
> status. Even the Nazis and Stalin (most of the time) honored diplomatic
> privileges. This was a throwback to the times when envoys were at the
> mercy of the host state and were often just glorified hostages.
Call me old-fashioned, but I always prefer justice to be served, over some
diplomatic cover-your-ass policy.
> I am quite proud in saying: Viva Pinochet!
There are other ways of saving one's country from communism besides torture,
murder and total disrespect for human lives. Besides, even though Castro is
still Satan personified as far as the White House is concerned, co-operation and
trade with China has never been better. In the end, it all boils down to the CIA
who would not allow Cuba II. So, in conclusion, whether we are going to condemn
or applaud someone's murder depends strictly on the victim's political opinion
right before he died. I find that a little too hypocritical for my taste.
Zoran Brlecic
> Neka je ziv i zdrav - pa ko god da je. Ako je sve k'o sto ti rece - sto vi je za
> brigu
> njegovo pisanije? Nekakov razlog ima sto ste mu crnji od onijeh u Afriku. On vi
> ponudi nekakvu okladu - sto mu ne uzeste pare, ako je ko sto ti se cini?
Kao da nemam drugog posla nego gledat ciji je pimpek obrezan. A inace, jel' ti
fakat ovako pricas ili se zajebavas sam sa sobom?
njo...@my-deja.com
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> njo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Zoran, I usually agree 100% with you. This is an exception. I
> > respectfully disagree.
>
> Right back at you, Njofra.
> Actually, I am surprised that you would not share my point of view in
this case,
> since you seem to be somewhat of a legalist.
Actually, I'm a lawyer. But these are mixed political and legal issuas,
so I don't claim any particular expertise (as if anyone cared).
In my opinion, the case
is simple:
> Spain, Belgium and others asked for his extradition and Not So Great
Britain
> decided to moon them instead, while at the same time playing an
ultra-civilized
> democrat in the Austria case.
> Without actually going too deep into what Pinochet has done, the case
is a very
> simple legal matter, with various moral implications, not the last of
which is
> the latest 45-year sentence in the Hague.
I'm not sure it's so simple. It gets really tricky when former
officials start getting tried in other countries, because it is
difficult to say where "justice" ends and where vendetta or political
persecution begins. For example, how about someone grabbing Gorbachev
during one of his trips to Geneva? Or Argentines grabbing Lady
Thathcer? Or Serbs demanding extradition of Gen. Clark because of
Grdelica "massacre"? Also, there are no international standards of
behavior. The Chinese still behave 1000 times worse than Pinochet yet
no one would dream of grabbing a retired PRC official who may have on
his hands blood of thousands of Tibetans, for example.
>
> > The old general saved his country from communisation. Communists
> > in power understand only one language, much like Milosevic. With
some
> > people there is no discussion. As Martin Luther said: "Kill them
like
> > rabid dogs." This is unpleasant but true.
>
> As I said before, human rights abuses are in the eye of a beholder.
South
> America is the last region on Earth where one can apply the
anti-communist
> sentiment with such broad strokes. All of those countries suffered
horrible
> military juntas, fascists, dictators, CIA puppets and murderers of all
sorts,
> and as a result, communism surely sounded too good to be passed on, to
some. I
> fail to see how Pinochet is different from Somoza, Trujillo and
others. Sheer
> number of gallons of blood spilled?
Very different. Somoza, Trujillo and others of their ilk were very much
in mold of Tudjman -- steal and plunder and live high on the hog while
the country goes to hell in a handbasket. Pinochet took a collapsing
economy and left a buzzing one.
>
> > Did innocent people die? Probably. Do innocent people die in every
> > civil war? Yes. Should someone do something about that? This is
> > Chilean internal matter, and Chile has determined, much like Spain,
that
> > national reconciliation is worth more than chasing a few old men.
Who
> > is Baltazar Garzon to ignore the democratic consensus of Chilean
people?
>
> Never mind that. Spain wanted him for allegedly causing death to some
of their
> nationals, and he should have been extradited in order to stand trial
in a fully
> democratic and law-abiding country. End of story. It does not matter
whether he
> saved one thing or other.
I'm afraid you missed my point. One country should have no right to try
an official of another country for what was done in that other country.
That used to be called the "act of state" doctrine, although the
doctrine was roundly ignored in the U.S. in the infamous Marcos
litigation. (Don't get me wrong, Marcos was a genuine crook. But the
U.S. courts had no business trying damage suits for wrongs allegedly
done to Philippine citizens in the Philippines by their own government.)
>
> > And don't let me even begin about the typical British perfidy of
issuing
> > the old general a diplomatic visa and then ignoring his diplomatic
> > status. Even the Nazis and Stalin (most of the time) honored
diplomatic
> > privileges. This was a throwback to the times when envoys were at
the
> > mercy of the host state and were often just glorified hostages.
>
> Call me old-fashioned, but I always prefer justice to be served, over
some
> diplomatic cover-your-ass policy.
The issue is whether you can have a generally trusted set of rules for
protection of diplomats. That is rather important in the grand scheme
of things.
>
> > I am quite proud in saying: Viva Pinochet!
>
> There are other ways of saving one's country from communism besides
torture,
> murder and total disrespect for human lives. Besides, even though
Castro is
> still Satan personified as far as the White House is concerned,
co-operation and
> trade with China has never been better. In the end, it all boils down
to the CIA
> who would not allow Cuba II. So, in conclusion, whether we are going
to condemn
> or applaud someone's murder depends strictly on the victim's political
opinion
> right before he died. I find that a little too hypocritical for my
taste.
I don't quite get the part about CIA. However, I agree with you that
murder of someone because of his political opinion is just plain murder.
That is not what happened in Chile. Pinochet overthrew a government
that was leading his country into disaster. That in my book was a
worthy deed. Apparently a number of innocent people go killed in the
process. That in my book is a crime, albeit probably unavoidable in a
civil war. However, the punishment of that crime should be strictly the
matter of Chile. There is no way that there could be a legal system
where courts in Belgium, Switzerland and Spain could all pass on
legality of something that was done by Chilean state in Chile.
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Robert Jerin
Jakov Nissim <jakov...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:89qbj7$phb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> , I'd like to be praised as a wise man.
Wise = "Jakov/Ephraim"!? Now there is a real oxymoron! Some would say
that on the contrary that this anonymous duo = bigotry? However I will not
be the one to claim this as their posts speak volumes about this condition!
Bj
Robert Jerin
Sinisa Kolaric <nospam_sin...@vz.tel.hr> wrote in message
news:89qgoq$1ad$1...@as102.tel.hr...
> A little reminder for mr. Nissim and mr. Ephraim.
> The same holds for you continual anti-Croat Nazi-Hutu-butcher-tribe-type
> rants.
Does this come from a couple of red-necked phony baloneys? AH would be
proud of his students! Can't imagine that anyone would use such neo-fascist
rhetoric, at least in public. Only cowards hiding behind their keyboards
would do such a thing. Sinisa I think you are inventing this stuff.
Bj
Victor Querosene
> surprising to
> > see how a nation that suffered so much under the boot of nazism is
> applying
> > the same nazi tactics to another nation --Palestinians.
>
> Palestinians!? Palestine is just the ancient Roman name for the
> territory of the contemporary state of Israel.
Yeay, yeah... When the territories under British protectorate were divided
into two entites, Jewish and Arabian, in 194-something, the State of Israel
didn't hesitate to annex parts of the Arabian territories, and the whole of
them in the war of the 6 days. These lands were almost completely inhabited
by Arabs before the beginnig of the Jewish return at the end of the XIX
century. I know that your people was there thousand of years before, but
Arabs were expelled from their homes, and the same happens today. Nazi
tactics? I'll explain below.
> If you refer to the
> Arabs living in Israel - then I'll tell you what. There is cca 1.8
> million (out of 6 million) Arabs living in Israel. They are lawful
> citizens of the state of Israel, they have their own political parties
> and
> representatives in the Israeli government. They run their own
> businesses, schools, universities (more precisely - four universities).
> All those who obey to the law of the state of Israel enjoy the same
> rights
> no matter are they Jews or Arabs.
We are supposed to believe that?
>
> As to "the same nazi tactics", please, give us examples or consequences
> of the tactics you are talking about.
>
You asked for that. Have you forgot the shameful images of the soldiers
breaking the arms of two young Palestinians with stones, when they were
completely unarmed and defenceless? What about the demolition of houses of
the families of Palestinian terrorists? What about the settlements in
Arabian territory? What about avoiding Arabians workers from Gaza and
Cisjordania to go to work after a terrorist action is made? There was an
Arabian kid (12 or 14 years old) with a hole in his head made by Israeli
bullets during a demonstration; I saw the images. Tell his mother that you
all have the same rights
> >
> > Don't get me wrong; I have nothing against you. But no nation is
> better or
> > worse than other. The same things you are reproaching to Zoran
> Brlecic could
> > be reproached to you by someone who pays more attention to the
> nationality
> > of people than to their ideas. Please, let's not miss the point.
>
> All the above is far from the truth. When you answer the question I've
> asked you, I'll give you quite clear explanation of the "ideas" and
> "nations".
I'm waiting.
>
> Please, if you like to keep up honesty to a some respectable level, do
> not keep this mask of impartiality over your face.
>
>
Oh, right. I guess that the next thing you'll do, when you don't have more
arguments, is to call me nazi, anti-semitist or something, isn't it?
Sinisa Kolaric
Robert Jerin wrote in message ...
>
>Sinisa I think you are inventing this stuff.
Hey Robert I think you are right. I'm talking
about something that doesn't really exist.
Must be habituation.
-s
Ephraim195
>From: "Robert Jerin" banje...@worldnet.att.net
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,
>Can't imagine that anyone would use such neo-fascist
>rhetoric, at least in public. Only cowards hiding behind their keyboards
All that wisdom comes from the last lesson of your comrade commissar? And he
told you that you're a brave person and not a coward hidden behind a keyboard?
Hahaha!!!
Robert Jerin
perhaps one could refrain from eating those "bigot-ish beans"!?
--
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree
upon"
Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)
Ephraim195 <ephra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000304133120...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Robert Jerin
Zoran Brlecic
> > Actually, I am surprised that you would not share my point of view in this
> case,
> > since you seem to be somewhat of a legalist.
>
> Actually, I'm a lawyer.
Hooo-ah!!! I better watch what I'm saying from now on.
> > Without actually going too deep into what Pinochet has done, the case is a
> very
> > simple legal matter, with various moral implications, not the last of which
> is
> > the latest 45-year sentence in the Hague.
>
> I'm not sure it's so simple. It gets really tricky when former
> officials start getting tried in other countries, because it is
> difficult to say where "justice" ends and where vendetta or political
> persecution begins.
Don't countries have a right to indict anybody for murder of their own citizens?
I mean, Spain is not claiming that it wants Pinochet to stand trial for
murdering Chileans, but Spanish citizens. If anything, he would probably receive
a more fair trial in a foreign country than in his own.
> For example, how about someone grabbing Gorbachev
> during one of his trips to Geneva? Or Argentines grabbing Lady
> Thathcer? Or Serbs demanding extradition of Gen. Clark because of
> Grdelica "massacre"? Also, there are no international standards of
> behavior. The Chinese still behave 1000 times worse than Pinochet yet
> no one would dream of grabbing a retired PRC official who may have on
> his hands blood of thousands of Tibetans, for example.
No doubt. As I said, it always boils down to the current White House policy, so
who gives a rat's ass if Pinochet killed a few Americans as well, Castro is the
real villain. Chinese are not, on the other hand, 'cause they buy our stuff. And
what's more important than stuff?
> > I fail to see how Pinochet is different from Somoza, Trujillo and others.
> Sheer
> > number of gallons of blood spilled?
>
> Very different. Somoza, Trujillo and others of their ilk were very much
> in mold of Tudjman -- steal and plunder and live high on the hog while
> the country goes to hell in a handbasket. Pinochet took a collapsing
> economy and left a buzzing one.
Yeah, but, Njofra, is the growth of the GNP all that really matters? Had Tudjman
succeeded in increasing the standard of living would that have been all we cared
about? Had Milosevic steadily increased his country's GNP, would that have
excused all he's done in the last ten years? Note these are all rhetoric
questions. We all know the answers.
> I'm afraid you missed my point. One country should have no right to try
> an official of another country for what was done in that other country.
Even if the victims are citizens of the former country?
> > So, in conclusion, whether we are going to condemn
> > or applaud someone's murder depends strictly on the victim's political
> opinion
> > right before he died. I find that a little too hypocritical for my taste.
>
> I don't quite get the part about CIA.
You're not saying Pinochet did all that on his own, are you? Senor, senor, can
you tell me where we're headin', Lincoln County Road or Armageddon, seems like
I've been down this way before, is there any truth in that, Senor? (Thanks, Bob
Dylan)
> However, I agree with you that
> murder of someone because of his political opinion is just plain murder.
> That is not what happened in Chile. Pinochet overthrew a government
> that was leading his country into disaster. That in my book was a
> worthy deed. Apparently a number of innocent people go killed in the
> process. That in my book is a crime, albeit probably unavoidable in a
> civil war. However, the punishment of that crime should be strictly the
> matter of Chile. There is no way that there could be a legal system
> where courts in Belgium, Switzerland and Spain could all pass on
> legality of something that was done by Chilean state in Chile.
I beg to differ. Otherwise, all some murderers have to do is bribe a few
officials in a banana country and they're off the hook for good. Wait a second,
but that already happened thousands of times! Silly me.
Mirko_Djuric/id=mmdjuric
>
> Kao da nemam drugog posla nego gledat ciji je pimpek obrezan. A inace, jel' ti
> fakat ovako pricas ili se zajebavas sam sa sobom?
Svetoga ti Alojzija Stepinca, kakov to prigovor davas? Ne rece li ti da
ovi Ephraim
more biti nekakov Srbin? Velju, co'ce, ako sto tako znas - a ti se kladi
pa pare
zaradi.
Zoran Brlecic
> Svetoga ti Alojzija Stepinca, kakov to prigovor davas? Ne rece li ti da ovi
> Ephraim
> more biti nekakov Srbin? Velju, co'ce, ako sto tako znas - a ti se kladi pa pare
> zaradi.
Ti ono radis u Lucentu, ha? Jel' prevodis tu svoju spiku direktno na Yokel ili ipak
pokusavas govoriti koliko-toliko normalan engleski?
Pah-don me, Suh! Ah done wonderin' where's at you wants me t' plug ian them yella
connecktahs. Ah reck'ns t' mahself y'all ain't seen no redniack this dumb in a
mah-ty looong tahm. Thas what ah seiz t' mah little missy jus' th' othe' day whahl
ah been crappin' in mah outhouse in mah backya'd, rah-ght niext t' mah C'maro on
wood'n blocks. Goooo-lly!!!
Ephraim195
>rhetoric, at least in public
This offspring (banjelacic) of the croatian ustashi keeps talking about nazism
apparently not knowing what he talks about. So, I decided to give him and
similar numbskulls from independent statelet several lessons about this notion.
This is my humanitarian aid to the lost Balkans tribe of savages who I pity
now.
Ephraim195
Read this twice, ask for help if you cannot understand it, don't say anything
until someone tells you that you know what it is all about.
Good luck!
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/Vatican_Studies/vs-001-a.htm
Archbishop Stepinac: "God, who directs the destiny of nations and controls
the hearts of Kings, has given us Ante Pavelic [head of a Nazi puppet regime in
Yugoslavia] and moved the leader of a friendly and allied people, Adolf Hitler,
to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors... Glory be to God, our
gratitude to Adolf Hitler and loyalty to our Poglavnik [fuhrer], Ante Pavelic."
"When the Ustashi were ushered into Zagreb by the Germans, Archbishop
Stepinac of Croatia immediately offered his congratulations to the poglavnik
and held a banquet to celebrate the founding of the new nation...[Stepinac]
arranged to have Pavelic received by Pope Pius XII [in Rome]."
Once Pavelic was in power, Archbishop Stepinac issued a Pastoral Letter
ordering the Croatian clergy to support the new Ustasha State. "The involvement
of Catholic clergy either in active participation or in blessing the
Ustashi-run holocaust is well-documented...Archbishop Stepinac headed the
committee which was responsible for forcible 'conversions' to Roman Catholicism
under threat of death and was also the Supreme Military Apostolic Vicar of the
Ustashi Army, which effected the slaughter of those who failed to convert.
Stepinac was known as the 'Father Confessor' to the Ustashi and continually
bestowed the blessing of Holy Mother Church upon its members and actions."
"After the opening of the Ustasha Parliament, Pavelic attended the Zagreb
cathedral, where Archbishop Stepinac offered special prayers for his good
friend and ordered a solemn Te Deum to be sung in thanks to God for the
establishment of the new regime."
"Unlike the Germans, who were interested only in the quickest and most
efficient means of mass extermination, the Catholic Ustashi, with priests and
bishops participating and giving their blessing, took great pleasure from
'torturing before killing. Most of their victims were not shot but were
strangled, drowned, burned, or stabbed to death.'"
Pavelic's solution to the problem of non-Catholics was either deportation or
liquidation and the tactics he used even sickened the Nazis. "Pavelic
reprimanded Hitler for being too lenient in his treatment of the Jews and
boasted that in Croatia he had completely solved the 'Jewish problem.'"
Approximately 50,000 Jews were either liquidated or shipped to Nazi death
camps.
Ephraim195
Firstly read instructions given in the lesson one and then start reading this
lesson.
Good luck again!
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/sakic/relate4.htm
At the same time, Mile Budak, who was a kind of our Goebels, is turned into a
saint. These are dangerous inanities of this political leadership. We are today
in a position of not knowing either what or where we are, as fascism we fought
against is being induced again. We are witnesses to some people bragging that
their fathers were Ustashi, and thinking that the present day Croatia should be
a continuation of the Independent State of Croatia. I think that the
termination of the Square of Victims of Fascism was the largest mistake of
President Tudjman. Removal of a symbol of a time and a people is a disgrace and
is a slap in the face of all antifascists emphasizes Murtic.
......
You know, I asked my friends in Germany if it could be possible for a street or
a square in that country to be named after a Goering or a Goebels. They told me
that it is a crazy thought. But here, I see units of the Croatian army and
barracks being named after war criminals and Ustashi cutthroats Maks Luburic,
Rafael Boban and Jure Francetic.
I have seen photographs of Croatian tanks plastered in pictures of Ante
Pavelic. And I could not believe my eyes. But, what could a man think if he
sees a fascist salute, as has been the one of Dario Kordic, president of the
Croatian Democratic Community of HerzegBosnia at a rally of the Croatian Army
recently held in Herzegovina! I have been on friendly terms with Tudjman for
decades and now unimaginable things are happening in his country. I don't know
why he allows that ... I am deeply disappointed with some colleagues. But, one
must not forget that fear is a reality here. Things are happening in small
towns in the province, which are not harmless at all says Murtic.
http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/feral/feral3.html
`` Ante Dapic, a Parliament member and the president of the Croatian Party of
Rights, especially liked to stop by my brother Zdenko's restaurant ``Poglavnik"
," tells us Zeljko Petricevic. ``It is a pity Zdenko is not around to show you
the photos and video recordings. I should not complain either. Without
exaggerating, at least a half of the present members of the Croatian Parliament
have visited my restaurant ``U". They all had a good time and liked the
atmosphere; only Tomislav Mercep complained that the waiter gave him a warm
beer. And it was warm because we had not had electricity for three days before
that; they are always connecting and reconnecting something around here."
Zeljko says he is sorry he does not know where a portrait of Ante Pavelic, ``a
beautiful work in oil by a German painter from 1942," ended up; the painting
used to hang in his brother Zdenko's restaurant, ``Poglavnik". He is also fond
of Pavelic's portrait which he displays in his restaurant, ``U". Poglavnik's
portrait in pastel has been done specially for Zeljko, by Vlatko Kordic, also
known as Smuk, which in these parts of Croatia is a synonym for a person fond
of a bottle.
http://www.usis-israel.org.il/publish/press/state/archive/1998/june/sd4603.htm
The Fate of the Wartime Ustasha Treasury
The so-called independent state of Croatia, established on April 10, 1941, as
part of the German conquest and dismemberment of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, was
denounced by the U.S. Government. Throughout World War II, it was U.S. policy
to avoid any action that might imply acknowledgment of the Croatian
protectorate, and to support the guerrilla forces seeking to overthrow the
German-backed regime.
The Fascist Ustasha political movement in power in wartime Croatia carried out
a murderous campaign aimed at Serbs, Jews, and others. As many as 700,000
victims, mostly Serbs, may have died in the camps. The Ustasha Croat campaign
started with the internment of 35,000 to 40,000 Croatian Jews in the spring and
summer of 1941, followed by the deportation of remaining Jews to Germany in
1942 and 1943. Only a few thousand Croatian Jews escaped after first finding
temporary sanctuary in the Italian portion of the Croatian protectorate.
The Ustasha regime in Croatia accumulated a treasury that apparently included
valuables stolen from the dispossessed and
deported Jewish and Sinti-Romani victims of the ethnic cleansing campaign. A
variety of wartime and postwar U.S. intelligence reports confirm a Ustasha
regime treasury of some size, but no authoritative quantification proved
possible. Nor was it ever clear how much came from Croatian Jewish victims --
although one U.S. intelligence report speculated that it might be as much as
$80 million in gold, mostly coins. Official and postwar information does
confirm that the Croatian regime transferred gold to Switzerland toward the end
of the War, and at least 980 kilograms of gold (worth about $1 million), taken
by the Croat officials from the Sarajevo branch of the Yugoslav National Bank
in 1941, was transferred to the Swiss National Bank in 1944. In July 1945 the
Swiss National Bank returned the gold to the new Yugoslav Government.
After the Ustasha regime collapsed at the end of the War, its leader, Ante
Pavelic, and some companions fled to the British zone of occupation of Austria
from where, according to intelligence reports, he escaped or was released after
surrendering some or all of a quantity of gold he had brought from Croatia.
Intelligence reports vary widely in the amount of gold Pavelic brought --
$600,000, $5-$6 million, or even $35 million. None of the information on the
amount or makeup of the gold Pavelic was carrying or turned over to the
British, some of which has the quality of legend, has been confirmed. What is
known is that no gold was reported by British authorities to have been
recovered, and none was turned over to the Tripartite Gold Commission for
restitution. Pavelic made his way to Rome, where he arrived in early 1946.
U.S. and British intelligence reports agree that the College of San Girolamo
degli Illirici in Rome served as a place of refuge and support for the Croatian
refugees. San Girolamo, which is located outside the walls of the Vatican and
pays Italian State taxes, provided living quarters for Croatian priests
studying at the Vatican. After the War, it was the reported center of an
extensive and effective underground that assisted Ustasha fugitives, including
Ante Pavelic, to flee from Europe to South America. Pavelic hid in Rome at
various locations from 1946 until his flight to Argentina in November 1948
without any decisive action by the U.S. or British authorities to apprehend him
and make him available for a war crimes trial.
A prime mover of the Ustasha activity in Rome was Father Krunoslav Dragonovic,
secretary of the College of San Girolamo. Taking advantage of his contacts
inside the International Red Cross, Dragonovic helped Ustasha fugitives
emigrate illegally to South America by providing temporary shelter and false
identity documents, and by arranging onward transport, primarily
to Argentina. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, the U.S. Army Counter
Intelligence Corps and the Ustashi collaborated in
running a "rat line," an escape route for defectors or informants who had come
to Austria from the Soviet zone of Germany or from Soviet bloc countries. In
1951 the anti-Communist informer and Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie escaped to
South America over the rat line. Some intelligence reports indicate that gold
from the Ustasha treasury may have been used to finance the postwar underground
activities involving Father Dragonovic at San Girolamo. There is no evidence in
U.S. archives that the Vatican leadership knew of or gave support to the
Ustasha activities outside its walls, but, given the location of the College,
troubling questions remain.
njo...@my-deja.com
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Without actually going too deep into what Pinochet has done, the
case is a
> > very
> > > simple legal matter, with various moral implications, not the last
of which
> > is
> > > the latest 45-year sentence in the Hague.
> >
> > I'm not sure it's so simple. It gets really tricky when former
> > officials start getting tried in other countries, because it is
> > difficult to say where "justice" ends and where vendetta or
political
> > persecution begins.
>
> Don't countries have a right to indict anybody for murder of their own
citizens?
It depends. International law is a funny thing because there is no
"right" to anything. International law is generally based on one of
three things: 1. a treaty; 2. reciprocity; and 3. force (the big
gorilla enforces his rules). In the absence of 1 or 3, countries have
historically been extremely reluctant to indict foreign heads of state,
because they did not want the same to happen to theirs. But perhaps we
are witnessing a dawn of a new age. (I personally doubt it -- I think
that the Pinochet escapade has more to do with the fact that all key
governments in the west at the moment are left-wing. Lady Thatcher
called the whole thing "vendetta", and I heartily agree.)
> I mean, Spain is not claiming that it wants Pinochet to stand trial
for
> murdering Chileans, but Spanish citizens. If anything, he would
probably receive
> a more fair trial in a foreign country than in his own.
I disagree for the reason stated above. But Chileans have decided, much
like Spaniards before them, that they would not reopen old wounds. For
example, Senor Juan Antonio Samaranch, a falangista (nazi) if there ever
has been one, and one with dirty hands at that, is quite well accepted
internationally. Query how come Judge Garzon is quiet about that?
>
> > For example, how about someone grabbing Gorbachev
> > during one of his trips to Geneva? Or Argentines grabbing Lady
> > Thathcer? Or Serbs demanding extradition of Gen. Clark because of
> > Grdelica "massacre"? Also, there are no international standards of
> > behavior. The Chinese still behave 1000 times worse than Pinochet
yet
> > no one would dream of grabbing a retired PRC official who may have
on
> > his hands blood of thousands of Tibetans, for example.
>
> No doubt. As I said, it always boils down to the current White House
policy, so
> who gives a rat's ass if Pinochet killed a few Americans as well,
Castro is the
> real villain. Chinese are not, on the other hand, 'cause they buy our
stuff. And
> what's more important than stuff?
The current White House policy doesn't give a damn about Pinochet, and
Clinton was quite prepared to make a deal with Castro. He's do a deal
with anyone. The "more important stuff" is political donations, which
the Chinese have funneled to Clinton in a big way. I think there have
been some convictions recently arising from that.
>
> > > I fail to see how Pinochet is different from Somoza, Trujillo and
others.
> > Sheer
> > > number of gallons of blood spilled?
> >
> > Very different. Somoza, Trujillo and others of their ilk were very
much
> > in mold of Tudjman -- steal and plunder and live high on the hog
while
> > the country goes to hell in a handbasket. Pinochet took a
collapsing
> > economy and left a buzzing one.
>
> Yeah, but, Njofra, is the growth of the GNP all that really matters?
Had Tudjman
> succeeded in increasing the standard of living would that have been
all we cared
> about? Had Milosevic steadily increased his country's GNP, would that
have
> excused all he's done in the last ten years? Note these are all
rhetoric
> questions. We all know the answers.
Yes and no. The point is that historically crooks and murderers do not
bring sustained national economic growth. There could be exceptions.
>
> > I'm afraid you missed my point. One country should have no right to
try
> > an official of another country for what was done in that other
country.
>
> Even if the victims are citizens of the former country?
See my answer towards the top. There is a big problem with trying
officials of another country. No problem with common citizens,
particularly if there is an extradition treaty in effect.
>
> > > So, in conclusion, whether we are going to condemn
> > > or applaud someone's murder depends strictly on the victim's
political
> > opinion
> > > right before he died. I find that a little too hypocritical for my
taste.
> >
> > I don't quite get the part about CIA.
>
> You're not saying Pinochet did all that on his own, are you? Senor,
senor, can
> you tell me where we're headin', Lincoln County Road or Armageddon,
seems like
> I've been down this way before, is there any truth in that, Senor?
(Thanks, Bob
> Dylan)
I don't know the degree of the involvment of CIA in the coup, and I know
that in Europe there is a tendency to overstate the good work of the
Agency. All I can say is what I was told by my Chilean clients, which
was that a great majority of business people could not wait for that to
happen. And Marx will tell you that whoever stands in the way of the
economy will be swept away one way or another.
>
> > However, I agree with you that
> > murder of someone because of his political opinion is just plain
murder.
> > That is not what happened in Chile. Pinochet overthrew a
government
> > that was leading his country into disaster. That in my book was a
> > worthy deed. Apparently a number of innocent people go killed in
the
> > process. That in my book is a crime, albeit probably unavoidable in
a
> > civil war. However, the punishment of that crime should be strictly
the
> > matter of Chile. There is no way that there could be a legal system
> > where courts in Belgium, Switzerland and Spain could all pass on
> > legality of something that was done by Chilean state in Chile.
>
> I beg to differ. Otherwise, all some murderers have to do is bribe a
few
> officials in a banana country and they're off the hook for good. Wait
a second,
> but that already happened thousands of times! Silly me.
Not quite. Not too many people get to do coups d'etat and succeed.
Pinochet was not a murderer to start with. His people may have killed
some innocent people in the course of the coup. That's a big
difference.
Marko Njavro
----------
In article <20000305203840...@ng-dd1.aol.com>,
ephra...@aol.com (Ephraim195) wrote:
Myself and the other staff at Hotel Jasenovac are at your service.
Marko Njavro
----------
In article <20000305205450...@ng-dd1.aol.com>,
ephra...@aol.com (Ephraim195) wrote:
> "Unlike the Germans, who were interested only in the quickest and most
> efficient means of mass extermination, the Catholic Ustashi, with priests and
> bishops participating and giving their blessing, took great pleasure from
> 'torturing before killing. Most of their victims were not shot but were
> strangled, drowned, burned, or stabbed to death.'"
The only regrettable thing is that you, Nissi and Djubric converted to
Catholicism and thus escaped the wrath of the Ustaska kama.
Jakov Nissim
"Victor Querosene" <ap...@sumi.es> wrote:
> Yeay, yeah... When the territories under British protectorate were
divided
> into two entites, Jewish and Arabian, in 194-something, the State of
Israel
> didn't hesitate to annex parts of the Arabian territories, and the
whole of
> them in the war of the 6 days. These lands were almost completely
inhabited
> by Arabs before the beginnig of the Jewish return at the end of the
XIX
> century. I know that your people was there thousand of years before,
but
> Arabs were expelled from their homes, and the same happens today.
Nazi
> tactics? I'll explain below.
Our land will be always our land. It makes no difference who conquered
it, when and how and how long lasted the grip of foreign power over our
land and our people. The Arabian aliya was sent to where it came from.
All Arabs' private property was compensated bby Israeli government.
Nothig strange - a regular process of decolonization that might be seen
in Europe, Africa, or Asia.
>
> > If you refer to the
> > Arabs living in Israel - then I'll tell you what. There is cca 1.8
> > million (out of 6 million) Arabs living in Israel. They are lawful
> > citizens of the state of Israel, they have their own political
parties
> > and
> > representatives in the Israeli government. They run their own
> > businesses, schools, universities (more precisely - four
universities).
> > All those who obey to the law of the state of Israel enjoy the same
> > rights
> > no matter are they Jews or Arabs.
>
> We are supposed to believe that?
Who are "we", may I ask you? The above I stated is visible in
the everyday's life in Israel. You just need to commit a minimal effort
to see that personally.
>>
> You asked for that. Have you forgot the shameful images of the
soldiers
> breaking the arms of two young Palestinians with stones, when they
were
> completely unarmed and defenceless? What about the demolition of
houses of
> the families of Palestinian terrorists? What about the settlements in
> Arabian territory? What about avoiding Arabians workers from Gaza and
> Cisjordania to go to work after a terrorist action is made? There was
an
> Arabian kid (12 or 14 years old) with a hole in his head made by
Israeli
> bullets during a demonstration; I saw the images. Tell his mother
that you
> all have the same rights
So, the true Croatian propagandist is heating up the discussion! In
Israel there is no Arabian territories at all nor ever were! It depends
what do you want to see - killed Arabs or killed Israelis. You chose
the Arabs. Did not ever hear about the school buses blown by Arab
terrorists, the Israeli civilians killed in broad daylight at a public
place?
> > >
> > > Don't get me wrong; I have nothing against you. But no nation is
> >
> > Please, if you like to keep up honesty to a some respectable level,
do
> > not keep this mask of impartiality over your face.
> >
> >
>
> Oh, right. I guess that the next thing you'll do, when you don't have
more
> arguments, is to call me nazi, anti-semitist or something, isn't it?
You did it already making all those pointless comparisons above.
Zvonimir Siljkovic
you? Oh boy this is rich. Yes Victor a real solid Croatian name and with a
internet provider from Spain boot!
Zvonimir Siljkovic
stupid to even know where you are!
--
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Stanciceva 11
3 Kat
Zagreb Medvescak 10000
hus...@msn.com
"Damir Krizanac" <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> wrote in message
news:38C56F4F...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
>
>
>
> > Victor Croatian Propagandist?
>
> ....good old spain and croatian fascists story...hahahahahahah....
>
> dk
>
njo...@my-deja.com
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > , a non-communist, and communists like Ribicic, Dolanc, Drnovsek,
> > etc., who have comitted crimes against humanity. Nobody ever even
suggested
> > that any communists be held accountable for their crimes. So why
pick on
> > Pinochet?
>
> What is wrong with you, people? You're not the first one pulling that
twisted
> logic today - "why pick on Pinochet when there are worse murderers".
The fact
> that there are some other people you would like to see hanging before
him does
> not excuse his crimes against humanity. Is that so hard to absolve?
Are we all
> ready to attend Common Decency And Justice 101?
Actually, Vlado has a point here. People like Castro or Suvar are not
criminals because the famous "international community" adheres to the
"act of state" doctrine when communists are involved. They never kill,
in communist countries everything is done legally and it is an internal
matter, like the ongoing legal proceedings in Chechnya. On the other
hand, any right-wing politician will be pilloried in no time for crimes
real or imagined.
My suspicion is that the UK chose to let Pinochet go in the end because
the government of Spain was horrified at the idea of having Pinochet
tried there. As you may remember, the Spanish government muzzled Garzon
by cutting off any further transmission of his writs and missives to
London. A trial of Pinochet in Spain would have been a disaster for
Spain. It would have ruined its standing in South America, and it would
have deeply offended about one-third or more of Spanish voters. I am
sure that the Spanish government (who are socialists) share your view of
Pinochet, but they are not suicidal. Besides, with a freshly elected
socialist president who hates Pinochet, Chile may not be as friendly to
the old general as it used to be.
Zoran Brlecic
> > > , a non-communist, and communists like Ribicic, Dolanc, Drnovsek,
> > > etc., who have comitted crimes against humanity. Nobody ever even
> suggested
> > > that any communists be held accountable for their crimes. So why pick on
> > > Pinochet?
> >
> > What is wrong with you, people? You're not the first one pulling that
> twisted
> > logic today - "why pick on Pinochet when there are worse murderers". The
> fact
> > that there are some other people you would like to see hanging before him
> does
> > not excuse his crimes against humanity. Is that so hard to absolve? Are we
> all
> > ready to attend Common Decency And Justice 101?
>
> Actually, Vlado has a point here. People like Castro or Suvar are not
> criminals because the famous "international community" adheres to the
> "act of state" doctrine when communists are involved.
Mr.Bevc holds a grudge against the Slovenian commies as big as the Empire State
Building, so from his perspective, they are the personification of all evil and
vicious. Although a very shaky proposition (since the recently converted SLO
reds really don't have any blood on their hands, with the exception of the old
school), that still doesn't mean that other communists are off the hook.
However, I never asked for human rights abusers to be prioritized by their
political conviction, and, as a matter of fact, if some of them can be taken to
trial, why not pursue it? Why waste time on useless bickering over who should be
the one to be prosecuted first? Punish the ones you have access to, then worry
about the rest.
> They never kill,
> in communist countries everything is done legally and it is an internal
> matter, like the ongoing legal proceedings in Chechnya. On the other
> hand, any right-wing politician will be pilloried in no time for crimes
> real or imagined.
I can't agree with this assessment. The degree of the West's looking away is
directly proportional to the size and significance of the country involved;
political/social system is no factor. Thus, China, Turkey and Russia can do
whatever they please, while Cuba, Austria and the three Balkans stooges are
taken out and flogged as an example.
> My suspicion is that the UK chose to let Pinochet go in the end because
> the government of Spain was horrified at the idea of having Pinochet
> tried there. As you may remember, the Spanish government muzzled Garzon
> by cutting off any further transmission of his writs and missives to
> London. A trial of Pinochet in Spain would have been a disaster for
> Spain. It would have ruined its standing in South America, and it would
> have deeply offended about one-third or more of Spanish voters. I am
> sure that the Spanish government (who are socialists) share your view of
> Pinochet, but they are not suicidal. Besides, with a freshly elected
> socialist president who hates Pinochet, Chile may not be as friendly to
> the old general as it used to be.
You may well have a point here.
Victor Querosene
> Our land will be always our land.
[...]
> In Israel there is no Arabian territories at all nor ever were!
Quite clarifying about you.
> All Arabs' private property was compensated by Israeli government.
Ha.
> > > All those who obey to the law of the state of Israel enjoy the same
> > > rights
> > > no matter are they Jews or Arabs.
> >
> > We are supposed to believe that?
>
> Who are "we", may I ask you? The above I stated is visible in
> the everyday's life in Israel. You just need to commit a minimal effort
> to see that personally.
I must come to Israel, then. But I don't need to travel to USA, for
instance, to see that the supposed equality between all citizens is just
chicken shit. Do have black people the same rights than white ones? There is
the case of Rodney King and the recent one of that unarmed boy shot several
times to death by four white policemen. Or just take a walk by the prisions
were the sentenced to death await their moment. Similar happens in Israel
with Jews and Arabs.
> You chose
> the Arabs. Did not ever hear about the school buses blown by Arab
> terrorists, the Israeli civilians killed in broad daylight at a public
> place?
I heard, but this people were murdered by TERRORISTS, while the people
expelled from his houses, the boys with the broken arms and the kid with the
hole in his head were victims of the POLICE and the ARMY of Israel, which
are supposed to defend a non-racist system where "all citizens have the same
rights".
> > Oh, right. I guess that the next thing you'll do, when you don't have
> more
> > arguments, is to call me nazi, anti-semitist or something, isn't it?
>
> You did it already making all those pointless comparisons above.
>
Oh, yeah. Look at me, I'm a strange kind of nazi who defends Arabs. By the
way, Arabs are a Semitic nation too. I repeat that have nothing against your
people, just against the crimes committed by the state of Israel. I don't
advocate the destruction of the state of Israel; it has the right to exist,
but many things have to change in it.
Victor Querosene
Damir Krizanac <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> escribió en el mensaje
de noticias 38C56F4F...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
>
>
>
> > Victor Croatian Propagandist?
>
> ....good old spain and croatian fascists story...hahahahahahah....
>
> dk
>
Oh, well, that's the very end... My grandfather spent 7 years of his life in
a fascist prision because of fighting against Franco and his fascist pigs.
He narrowly escaped a death sentence. My father narrowly escaped a police
arrest when some of his friends were arrested for "subversive" activities
against the regime. And about me, I experienced in my body the caress of a
rubber ballet from the riot control police because of demostrating against a
fascist pig who was making a speech in Barcelona, last 12 of October.
This is the sad thing about Israel. Nobody can claim against the oppresion
of the Palestinian people, because their defence is calling you nazi.
njo...@my-deja.com
Zoran Brlecic <zbrl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mr.Bevc holds a grudge against the Slovenian commies as big as the
Empire State
> Building, so from his perspective, they are the personification of all
evil and
> vicious. Although a very shaky proposition (since the recently
converted SLO
> reds really don't have any blood on their hands, with the exception of
the old
> school), that still doesn't mean that other communists are off the
hook.
> However, I never asked for human rights abusers to be prioritized by
their
> political conviction, and, as a matter of fact, if some of them can be
taken to
> trial, why not pursue it? Why waste time on useless bickering over who
should be
> the one to be prosecuted first? Punish the ones you have access to,
then worry
> about the rest.
You are right about Vlado, with whom I discussed such matters ad
nauseam at soc.culture.slovenia. I also agree with you that criminals
should be handled as they become available. The only point of
disagreement is that I don't believe in international "courts" and
grabbing other countries' officials, because such proceedings naturally
tend to be heavily influenced by politics and basically unfair to the
accused. Blaskic's case is a classical example of someone being
railroaded for an awful crime, over which he may not have had any
control whatsoever. But the "court" was not interested in Blaskic, they
were interested in making a point that the entire Croat organization in
Bosna was a criminal enterprise, which likewise is not true accross the
board,
>
> > They never kill,
> > in communist countries everything is done legally and it is an
internal
> > matter, like the ongoing legal proceedings in Chechnya. On the
other
> > hand, any right-wing politician will be pilloried in no time for
crimes
> > real or imagined.
>
> I can't agree with this assessment. The degree of the West's looking
away is
> directly proportional to the size and significance of the country
involved;
> political/social system is no factor. Thus, China, Turkey and Russia
can do
> whatever they please, while Cuba, Austria and the three Balkans
stooges are
> taken out and flogged as an example.
>
You are of course right that it is much easier to piss on Croatia's
shoes than on China's. However, it is likewise true that while we have
heard and will never hear an end of demands for trials of Nazis,
Pinochets and other right-wingers, there never has been any
international movement by the ever-concerned human rights activists to
prosecute those who turned Central and Easter Europe and China into
large gulags for decades. Commies exterminated many more people than
Hitler, for example, yet no one cares. A KGB guy becomes president of
Russia and it's business as usual. Yet there were "grave concerns" over
Zhirinovsky, who is no different in substance but speaks as a
"rightist".
Zoran Brlecic
> You are of course right that it is much easier to piss on Croatia's
> shoes than on China's. However, it is likewise true that while we have
> heard and will never hear an end of demands for trials of Nazis,
> Pinochets and other right-wingers, there never has been any
> international movement by the ever-concerned human rights activists to
> prosecute those who turned Central and Easter Europe and China into
> large gulags for decades. Commies exterminated many more people than
> Hitler, for example, yet no one cares.
That may well be due to the fact that the communist dictatorships were, as a
rule, closed to the outside world, but I will also grant you the fact that a lot
of people sitting in the whole specter of human rights organizations are leftist
sympathizers, and as such, somewhat subjective (crocodile tears shed after the
FYU breakup and jumping on the band-wagon in their initial condemnation of
independent Croatia come to mind). That said, however, I personally wouldn't
have a single objection if a Western country arrested Jaruzelsky, for instance,
and put him on trial for murder of their citizens (in reality, though, the only
ones killed were Poles). On the other hand, I believe that all the HROs are
unanimous in their condemnation of the China's treatment of Tibet, Korea's
genocidal regime, etc., but there are simply not that many communist regimes
left. Besides, the major red murderers are dead already - Stalin, Khrushchev,
Ceaucescu, Pol Pot, Mao, Novotny, Broz, Mengistu, they're all on a permanent
vacation in a warm place.
> A KGB guy becomes president of
> Russia and it's business as usual.
The stuff I said about looking away being proportional to the size of the
country.
> Yet there were "grave concerns" over
> Zhirinovsky, who is no different in substance but speaks as a "rightist".
He speaks as an idiot, and that was everybody's primary concern. When you're
dealing with a lunatic asylum, it is much better to have as its ruler somebody
with a mild case of alcoholism, than a schizophrenic lunatic. We're talking
nuclear missiles here, not some African country where god said good night a
hundred years ago.
Victor Querosene
Victor Querosene
>
>
> Nije da me nije briga sta su Njemacka, Hrvatska ili Spanija ucinili u toku
WW
> II. Ali se sigurno nemogu identificirati sa tim.
Pa ti si Srbin! Well, sorry that I don't understand you well. Do you say
that it doesn't worry you what Germany, Croatia or Spain did during WW2, or
that it does? Oh, well, and what do you THINK that Spain did? Didn't you
ever heard about our Civil War, in which we were defeated by the fascists?
If you know that Franco sent the "Condor legion" to help Hitler, you should
also know that many Spaniards who fought for our lost Republic went to fight
against the fascist pigs in many parts of Europe. Stalingrad, na premier.
They fought against the nazis and against the "Condor legion".
And you should also know that many people in the International Brigades that
came here to help us fight against fascism came from Serbia, Bosnia and
Croatia.
>
> Sta to sa mojom inteligencijom ili bolje da kazem ne-inteligencijom ima -
> objasni mi, jer nemam pojma o cemu pricas.
>
> Mozda sam jednostavno preuzeo njemacki humor pa ne kuzis...isto jedna
> mogucnost.
>
If it was German sense of humour, well, you better chose better jokes.
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Italijanski, ceski i na neki navo srbski!
--
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Stanciceva 11
3 Kat
Zagreb Medvescak 10000
hus...@msn.com
"Damir Krizanac" <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> wrote in message
news:38C655D0...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
>
>
> Zvonimir Siljkovic wrote:
>
> > Considering your provider is Deutschland, I would not laugh! Or are you
to
> > stupid to even know where you are!
>
> I?!
>
> Nije da me nije briga sta su Njemacka, Hrvatska ili Spanija ucinili u toku
WW
> II. Ali se sigurno nemogu identificirati sa tim.
>
> Sta to sa mojom inteligencijom ili bolje da kazem ne-inteligencijom ima -
> objasni mi, jer nemam pojma o cemu pricas.
>
> Mozda sam jednostavno preuzeo njemacki humor pa ne kuzis...isto jedna
> mogucnost.
>
> dk
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Zvonimir Siljkovic
> > Stanciceva 11
> > 3 Kat
> > Zagreb Medvescak 10000
> > hus...@msn.com
> >
> > "Damir Krizanac" <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> wrote in message
> > news:38C56F4F...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Red Herring
>Oh, well, that's the very end... My grandfather spent 7 years of his life in
>a fascist prision because of fighting against Franco and his fascist pigs.
You grandfather was a communist swine, and so are you.
Marko Peric
>
> >Oh, well, that's the very end... My grandfather spent 7 years of
> >his life in a fascist prision because of fighting against Franco
> >and his fascist pigs.
>
> You grandfather was a communist swine, and so are you.
"Red Herring", stop living up to your name.
Marko;
Roger Alexander
note which side Red Herring takes. Israel is a more or less fascist state,
not communist (although some of the founders were), not socialist (although the
Kibbutzes were window dressing for the European left and to some extent remain so
today), but nationalist socialist (or unkindly, fascist).
This post in the spirit of: "You can't tell the players without a program."
RLA
Red Herring wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:35:08 +0100, "Victor Querosene" <ap...@sumi.es> wrote:
>
> >Oh, well, that's the very end... My grandfather spent 7 years of his life in
> >a fascist prision because of fighting against Franco and his fascist pigs.
>
> You grandfather was a communist swine, and so are you.
>
Miro Stromar
>
> Damir Krizanac <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> escribió en el mensaje
> de noticias 38C655D0...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
> >
> >
> WW
> > II. Ali se sigurno nemogu identificirati sa tim.
>
> that it doesn't worry you what Germany, Croatia or Spain did during WW2, or
> that it does? Oh, well, and what do you THINK that Spain did? Didn't you
> ever heard about our Civil War, in which we were defeated by the fascists?
> If you know that Franco sent the "Condor legion" to help Hitler,
I thought Hitler sent the Condor legion to help Franco in the civil war.
--
Miro Stromar,
23 Halbrook Dr.S.W.
Calgary Alberta,
Canada T2V-3H5
===============================================================
______| http://www.cadvision.com/crestest/main.htm
o/______\o e-mail: cres...@cadvision.com
(Oo=00=oO) Faxphone: 403.253.5695 Cellular: 403.607.8845
[]=****=[] Office: 403.266.4141 Fax: 403.266.4259
===============================================================
Zvonimir Siljkovic
--
Zvonimir Siljkovic
Stanciceva 11
3 Kat
Zagreb Medvescak 10000
hus...@msn.com
"Damir Krizanac" <damir.k...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de> wrote in message
news:38C807CC...@stud.uni-bayreuth.de...
>
> Zvonimir Siljkovic wrote:
>
> > As a socialist,
>
> Ko? Ja komunista? To je los vic kao moj kojeg sam izgleda napravijo.
>
>
> > I think you loose your credibility to brag about fighting with communist
against nazis. The only difference is the flag under which they fought for.
The ideology and cruelty was pretty much equal. Be they the German Reich or
the Iron Curtain. If I remember my history, did not the Soviet Union invade
and occupy the Baltic states, parts of Finland and parts of Poland under
agreement with the Germans. While Hitler was writing Mien Kamp, Stalin was
busy burying 7 million Ukrainians. So please do not brag about fighting with
Russians. It saddens me that the allied democracies did not continue east
after defeating Germany and ending the totalitarian threat once and for all.
>
> I meni je isto zao, ali sta cu.
Zvonimir Siljkovic
critical look at the results. Look at the state the right left Spain and
look at the state of things in eastern Europe that the left created. Also
please be honest to the actions of the Spanish civil war. Alot of it was
comintern communists and were very anti-religious and anti-private property.
While I tend to vote for liberal left of center governments, I tend to stay
away from the far left. The far left does as much damage as the far right
does. The far left has a tendency to discriminate against religions
prosperous citizens out of jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. I am
economically to the left socially to the right. To many times, I have seen
the far left destroy a societies social fabric. destroying family units and
elevating the rights of the state above the rights of the individual and
family. Since you are a citizen of a western democracy, you have very little
real experience of living under the terror of the far left. Is it no
surprise to you that so many could not wait to get rid of the communists in
charge. If the Spanish Communists won, I bet you would be singing a very
different tune.
Victor Querosene
Zvonimir Siljkovic <hus...@email.msn.com> escribió:
> As a socialist, I think you loose your credibility to brag about fighting
> with communist against nazis. The only difference is the flag under which
> they fought for. The ideology and cruelty was pretty much equal. Be they
the
> German Reich or the Iron Curtain. If I remember my history, did not the
> Soviet Union invade and occupy the Baltic states, parts of Finland and
parts
> of Poland under agreement with the Germans. While Hitler was writing Mien
> Kamp, Stalin was busy burying 7 million Ukrainians. So please do not brag
> about fighting with Russians. It saddens me that the allied democracies
did
> not continue east after defeating Germany and ending the totalitarian
threat
> once and for all.
>
Stalin was another fascist pig, I agree. Now I regret having mentioned
Stalingrad, but this was just an example about how Spanish republicans
fought against the nazis and against their fascist compatriots, even in such
a bloody episode of WW2 like it was the battle of Stalingrad (Volgograd
nowadays). I knew a guy whose grandfather was in the fascist "Condor Legion"
sent by Franco to help Hitler; that guy uses to say that his grandfather was
sent there to kill Ukranian children. Someone had to stop them.
Jesi li ti socijalist, Zvonimire? Pa zasto si kazao tome o demokraticku
socijalistu Presidentu Allende? Zasto si rekao "hvala" Pinochetu? Mislis li
da je Pinochet bolji od Stalina ili Hitlera?
Victor Querosene
Miro Stromar <cres...@cadvision.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> I thought Hitler sent the Condor legion to help Franco in the civil war.
Damn! TRUE, TRUE, TRUE!! Sorry, indignation blinded me!! I meant the "Blue
Division". You're right. The Condor Legion bombed Gernika. What the hell I
was thinking about? And I said it in two different messages! Stupid of me!
So, "Blue Division", not "Condor Legion".
Jakov Nissim
"Victor Querosene" <ap...@sumi.es> wrote:
> Jakov Nissim <jakov...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias
>
> I must come to Israel, then. But I don't need to travel to USA, for
> instance, to see that the supposed equality between all citizens is
just
> chicken shit. Do have black people the same rights than white ones?
There is
> the case of Rodney King and the recent one of that unarmed boy shot
several
> times to death by four white policemen. Or just take a walk by the
prisions
> were the sentenced to death await their moment. Similar happens in
Israel
> with Jews and Arabs.
Poor guy is that all the knowledge you have that makes you believe you
know what are you talking about?
>
> I heard, but this people were murdered by TERRORISTS, while the
people
> expelled from his houses, the boys with the broken arms and the kid
with the
> hole in his head were victims of the POLICE and the ARMY of Israel,
which
> are supposed to defend a non-racist system where "all citizens have
the same
> rights".
All I would say is - a big hole in your brain keeps you repeating the
nonsense you've said in the previous post. Are the people murdered by
terrorists murdered at all? Talking about the police and the army of
the Israel the way you do - makes sense only if you (as you do) equate
the atrocities committed by the individuals to the regular behaviour of
the Israel state police and army. Once more, stop talking nonsense and
stop using a Spanish name in order to spread a primitive Croatian
propaganda!
>
>
> Oh, yeah. Look at me, I'm a strange kind of nazi who defends Arabs.
Not strange - rather primitive, without honesty and ignorant as anyone
of you pretending to play a role of an impartial judge under a false
name.
By the
> way, Arabs are a Semitic nation too. I repeat that have nothing
against your
> people, just against the crimes committed by the state of Israel. I
don't
> advocate the destruction of the state of Israel; it has the right to
exist,
> but many things have to change in it.
>
>
Jakov Nissim
Roger Alexander <rla...@eastky.net> wrote:
> Not to take sides between a fascist and an asserted communist, but
> note which side Red Herring takes. Israel is a more or less fascist
state,
> not communist (although some of the founders were), not socialist
(although the
> Kibbutzes were window dressing for the European left and to some
extent remain so
> today), but nationalist socialist (or unkindly, fascist).
> This post in the spirit of: "You can't tell the players without a
program."
> RLA
Your post is more like spirit of an example of Goebbels propaganda.
Once Goebbels made a poster showing white (naked) girl holding in her
hands the London "Times" (newspaper). The image of the same girl in
a mirror was a dark skin girl (Jewess) holding the newspaper which name
was "Semit".
Sinisa Kolaric
"Jakov Nissim" <jakov...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8aa0cp$oo9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Your post is more like spirit of an example of Goebbels
> propaganda.
Godwin's Law of Nazi Anallogies:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a
comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.0.
-s
Zvonimir Siljkovic
liberal of the German model. I believe that socialist have to respect the
free markets, private property and religion. My beef with Allende and many
socialists like them is their willingness to trample over the rights of
others to compensate for those who have less right. They believe the
economics and politics is a zero sum gain. That in order to rise someone's
else's position, you must take someone else down. Allende's brand of
socialism would have ruined Chile. The act of nationalize private property
and the willingness to use troops against people who protests his disastrous
economic policies show him to be a politician who had very little concept of
what it really means to be a free and open society and a democracy. In a
democracy, one is obliged to hand people the tools, but then must make it up
to the people to determine their destiny. The government can provide a
social net incase people fail. But a true democracy must respect the private
property of all individuals. That is the cornerstone of democracy. We are
not all of equal means, but all should tell us that we are all of equal
opportunities. It is up to us to make up our own destiny. When some
individual starts to take away or threatens to take away my private
property, he is threatening to take away the fruits of my labor. That is
called thievery. That's my beef with Allende and his supporters. They don't
care about my rights to private property or me enjoying the fruits of my
hard work. Bo I think Pinochle is better then Stalin or Hitler? Yes I do.
Why do I say so. Stalin and Hitler ruined their nations. Pinochle left a
stable democracy and an economic prosperous nation when he stepped down. He
voluntarily stepped down in a democratic election. No one had to kill him or
die of natural causes. In many election, the old saying goes are you better
today the yesterday. Well Chileans were better when he left then before he
came to power. And in any book, that is called a successful tenure as ruler.
My view of the Chilean affair as it being a civil war. And as civil wars go,
it was one the least bloodiest in the Americas. Now I would not have
supported Pinochle if he was forced out by war and left an economy in ruin.
But he did not. He left it better then he got it. And that's all most people
ask for in a ruler. Will I support or defend death of innocents. Nope. How
many more would have died if Chile continued down its spiral of killings
that were occurring in Chile. The left was beginning a movement of
revolution. Terrorizing the countryside, striping Chilean citizens of their
private property, nationalizing business. In short a recipe for civil war
and catastrophe for the Chilean nation. I have yet to see a successful
socialist/communist government in charge. I would not call European
Socialist true socialist. They are more liberal left of center then
socialists.
The 1970's were a different time from today. Lets also keep the historical
perspective here. The threat to the west of communist's were real. There was
a global battle for supremacy. Chile became a battle ground as did all of
the Americas and Africa. America just lost the Vietnam war and was at it
lowest point militarily. And with America stood Europe and what Asia. At
time the domino theory played if one country goes communist, then it will
spread like a cancer. Well in someway it became true. South Vietnam fell,
Cambodia and Laos followed. So the Chileans became pawns of the cold war
between east and west. Knowing what it means to live in the west and east, I
have come to support any actions the west must do to defeat the east.
Communisms is a cruel degrading system that has left nothing but misery in
its wake. That's why I don' support types like Allende. There is a big
difference to socialists that are in power today in Chile and Allende! Its
not right to romanticize the past. Which is what has been happening
concerning Allende!
Sinisa Kolaric
"Jakov Nissim" <jakov...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Once Goebbels made a poster showing white (naked) girl
> holding in her hands the London "Times" (newspaper). The
> image of the same girl in a mirror was a dark skin girl
> (Jewess) holding the newspaper which name was "Semit".
Highly visual remark, mr. Nissim, but....
What has this to do with the original topic?
(Modern Israel as a state?)
-s
Victor Querosene
Zvonimir Siljkovic <hus...@email.msn.com> escribió:
This argument has been made by some people, and it has a certain part of
logic. But one thing that needs to be pointed out is that the Spanish II
Republic
was only that: a democratic republic like any other. It was not ruled by
default by the extreme left. The republican period also comprised a
conservative government.
What you say about the anti-religious acts is true, but they were not
generalized. Another thing to know is that an important part of the Catholic
Spanish Church was very narrow-minded and supported the wealthy, while other
part was in favour of the humble ones (the so-called "red priests"!). My
grandfather, who fought in the Republican side and was member of the
anarchist syndicate, was also Catholic.
As you are Croat, you surely understand what is the national identity of a
nation whithin a state. In the Spanish State there are two strong historical
nationalities besides the predominant Spanish-Castilian one. These are the
Basque and the Catalonian. Both Euskadi (Basque Country) and Catalonia have
their own history, traditions, culture and language, distinct from Spanish
ones. Well, under the Republic, these historical nationalities enjoyed a
high degree of authonomy. The self-government of Catalonia (the land where I
was born and I live, though my family comes from the south of Spain) was
suppressed during the conservative republican period, and restored when the
left front (communists plus anarchists) came back to power. This was another
important reason for the reactionary right-winged to start the coupe, since
in their vision Spain was about to fell in the hands of communism, anarchy
and disintegration. When Franco reached the power, Catalonian and Basque
languages were forbidden to be taught in schools, and the regime tried to
kill the national identity of both nations.
Whether you believe it or not, anarchists did many good reforms here
(Catalonia) which benefitted the poor people. This was before communists
spoilt it all, confronted the anarchists and forced them to give up the
reforms and come back to the "constitutional order". Communists were
Stalin's servers, as they showed later.
What if the Republic (not the communists) had won? First, Spain wouldn't be
remembered by some as a state that sent troops to help Hitler (the "Blue
Division"). Instead, maybe the troops would have been sent to help France
against the nazi invasion. Second, we wouldn't have now a royal family (a
King appointed by Franco) which does nothing but skiing, sailing on yachts
and celebrating sumptuous weddings, everything paid with public money.
Besides that, most likely Spain would be a federal state. Or even Catalonia
and Euskadi would be independent, so there would be not such a terrible
problem as is ETA.
VQ
fidik
OUR son of a bitch".
Zvonimir Siljkovic
well! My dad had a friend who fought on the side of Republic. He was a
American Communist volunteer in the Lincoln Brigade. He was a very
intelligent man but a man also blinded in his ideology. When Yugoslavia was
breaking apart, he could not understand why Croats and Slovenes were
destroying Yugoslavia. To him it was akin to killing what he thought was the
worlds workers paradise and he frowned upon going to church. He considered
religion people as stuck in the past. My tendencies are to support true
democrats but he was not one of those. It "revolutionaries" like him that I
am hostile to. He took a trip to the Soviet Union in the early eighties.
When he came back, he was a bit quit. But it did not take long for him to
sing the praises of communism.You should see how he spent years of
retirement moping when the Soviet Union collapsed. It just people like him
that I am very weary of.
I support ETA! I support the IRA and Corsican Independence. As in terms of
the Royal Family. Why does not Spain get rid of it.I think Royal Families do
not jive with liberal democracies. When it comes to royals, the French knew
how to deal with the leaches!
As a side note, at the end of the day, Franco did not help the Germans. If
he let Germany take Gibraltar,that would have meant a German victory in the
war! And he made this decision during the height of German power. So I tend
to look at Franco's volunteers as him getting rid of an element that the
Germans might use against him. Quite a smart man. Played off both sides
against each other to the betterment of Spain. Do you view Franco as an evil
man. While many men are puppets of outside powers, I think he was a true
nationalist who believed what he was doing was for the betterment of Spain.
I think he saw the possibility of Spain being taken over by communists and
did what he thought should be done. But at the same token I will admit a
certain ignorance to the Spanish Civil War. All my knowledge is from the
history books and stories from people. I never read an independent book on
Spain so I might be wrong about the communist threat. But my guess is that
there must have been the threat since the allied western powers felt better
with Franco then with the communists(socialist). As an aside. I am really
impressed with the memorial Franco built.Am I not wrong in the understanding
that it was a memorial to all the fallen in the Civil War. I have never met
a communist that built memorials to all the people. Only to fallen
communists. While he built one to all the fallen. What does that say about
his soul?
Could you point me to a good book or source of information in regards to the
Spanish Civil War.I would really like to know what was the political
situation that caused it. Usually Civil Wars occur for a very good and real
threat. Very really are they purely ego driven by the leadership, usually
the leadership takes advantage of the perceived emotions of the publics
demand for some kind of action.
Robert Jerin
dictatorship to the form of democracy enjoys today. What I have read about
him is that he is more than just an idle rich king. Of the places that had
fallen under dictatorships "so called left" or "so called right wing" it
would appear that Spain has faired better than most. In regards to the
monument that the Franco government built, you are correct that it is to all
the fallen in the Spanish Civil War.
Bj
--
"A man can not be too careful in his choice of enemies"
Oscar Wilde
Zvonimir Siljkovic <hus...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:Osnx2Hsi$GA.245@cpmsnbbsa03...
Zvonimir Siljkovic
man. When I first heard about it. I was confused but then thought that it
reflects very positively on the guy. Its not a black and white issue as so
many would have you believe.
Victor Querosene
> Once more, stop talking nonsense and
> stop using a Spanish name in order to spread a primitive Croatian
> propaganda!
> >
:-) This was funny. Really. I think it's the funniest thing that has
happened to me in a NG.
My name is Victor Quero Moya, and I live in Sabadell, medium city near to
Barcelona. I live in the land called Catalonia, which has its own history,
culture and language, and all my family comes from Andalusia, in the south
of Spain. No Croatian blood at all.
So why do you think that denouncing injustices committed by the State of
Israel is Croatian propaganda? Somebody said you have an anti-Croatian
paranoia; I'm beginning to think that he was right.
By the way, I never insulted you.
Shalom --not for you, but...
Victor Querosene
Zvonimir Siljkovic <hus...@email.msn.com> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias
> Don't speak of federalizing! Yeah Gads Federalizing has served Yugoslavia
so
> well!
But a federal state is better than a centralized one, don't you think?
> I support ETA! I support the IRA and Corsican Independence.
It is a tough problem, as I said. Their ideals might be right at the
beginning, but now they have become a blind organisation which right now is
hindering the process of national construction started by Basque nationalist
parties. They also had made many serious mistakes. For example, in 1987 they
put a bomb in a commercial centre of Barcelona, and many civilian people
died.
By the way, ETA has a socialist-communist inspiration. It's included in the
Koordinadora Abertzale Sozialista, which in Basque language means Socialist
Nationalist Commitee.
> As in terms of
> the Royal Family. Why does not Spain get rid of it.I think Royal Families
do
> not jive with liberal democracies. When it comes to royals, the French
knew
> how to deal with the leaches!
For the first time I must say that I agree with you. Moram reci da slazem se
s tobom. I don't want them to be executed, this wouldn't be a democratic
way, but a modern democracy shouldn't have a royal family. Now the King's
son says that he has not enough personal space in the royal palace, so we're
building another one (smaller) for him. Cheap, you can bet!
>
> As a side note, at the end of the day, Franco did not help the Germans. If
> he let Germany take Gibraltar,that would have meant a German victory in
the
> war! And he made this decision during the height of German power. So I
tend
> to look at Franco's volunteers as him getting rid of an element that the
> Germans might use against him. Quite a smart man.
Good analysis. Yes, I think he distrusted Hitler. He ordered the
construction of a defence line, with bunkers and all, along the border with
France.
> Played off both sides
> against each other to the betterment of Spain. Do you view Franco as an
evil
> man. While many men are puppets of outside powers, I think he was a true
> nationalist who believed what he was doing was for the betterment of
Spain.
No doubt! But what does it mean? Hitler did what he did because he believed
that it would improve Germany.
> I think he saw the possibility of Spain being taken over by communists and
> did what he thought should be done. But at the same token I will admit a
> certain ignorance to the Spanish Civil War. All my knowledge is from the
> history books and stories from people. I never read an independent book on
> Spain so I might be wrong about the communist threat.
Communist threat... A big part of communists (if not all) were supporters of
Stalin. I think they were quite authoritharian. They treacherous attitude
towards their theorical companions, the anarchists, was shameful. They
received orders from Moscow. Executed "non-orthodox" companions. I believe
that they would have turn contrary to the self-government of Catalonia and
Euskadi, if they (their "hardcore") would have reached full control of
power.
However, Franco... He was not better. At all.
> But my guess is that
> there must have been the threat since the allied western powers felt
better
> with Franco then with the communists(socialist).
The western powers... What Allende tried to do in Chile was simply to
nationalize some industries (mineral explotations, for example) to provide
more richness to the country. But Latin America countries were only "banana
republics", --if this expression means anything in English-- for the western
powers; just economical interests. The same for the rest of the world.
Socialism --true socialism, if it exists-- was a threat for them, whenever
it was; they simply couldn't take the risk.
> As an aside. I am really
> impressed with the memorial Franco built.Am I not wrong in the
understanding
> that it was a memorial to all the fallen in the Civil War. I have never
met
> a communist that built memorials to all the people. Only to fallen
> communists. While he built one to all the fallen. What does that say about
> his soul?
He had a dark soul. No, maybe not; he was just so ignorant about so many
things. But he did terrible things.
The memorial is called a monument to "the Fallen". As far as I know, it's
not specified which are these fallen. For the regime, the enemies were all
"marxist demons". I personally doubt that Franco included them among their
fallen, although the name of the memorial (and the valley where it's built)
may seem so ambiguous to lead to a wide sense of "fallen". I was never
there; I don't know what it's written there, but in my oppinion anything
which indicated a recognition for all the fallen would be just to make a
good impression. What you probably don't know is that the memorial was built
with the forced work of republican prisioners.
>
> Could you point me to a good book or source of information in regards to
the
> Spanish Civil War.I would really like to know what was the political
> situation that caused it. Usually Civil Wars occur for a very good and
real
> threat. Very really are they purely ego driven by the leadership, usually
> the leadership takes advantage of the perceived emotions of the publics
> demand for some kind of action.
>
Sorry again. I'm afraid that you won't believe me, but I couldn't recommend
any book about the subject. I saw some good documentaries on tv, but I don't
know their names, and anyway they were all in Spanish or Catalan.
What I can tell you is that Spanish society back then was extremely divided,
which isn't much a surprise...
VQ
Victor Querosene
Robert Jerin <banje...@worldnet.att.net> escribió en el mensaje de
noticias
> I have heard that King Juan Carlos greatly assisted the transition from a
> dictatorship to the form of democracy enjoys today. What I have read
about
> him is that he is more than just an idle rich king.
Hi, Bob
Yes, he was a kind of bridge between the two forms: he was not a political
figure, but he has the authority of being the heir to the throne and so was
appointed by Franco (in spite of Juan Carlos' father). He ordered the
constitution of the first "semi-democratic" government, by Adolfo Suárez. In
my oppinion, after that was Suárez who leaded the main weight of the task,
and he did an excellent work. He's a man from a different political
orientation than me, but I think that he's an upright and honest man, and he
deserves a lot of recognition.
The most significant role of the King Juan Carlos as assistent of the
transition --and the fact that most of people remember-- was his behaviour
during the attempt of coupe d'etat in 1981. I don't think it was such a
decissive intervention, but what people remember is Juan Carlos' speech
supporting democracy and calling to order.
If you allow me an aside, I have seen images of what happenned in the
Parliament, and the president Suárez showed his upright condition. Some
Civil Guards (kind of military force) entered the building and shouted
everybody to freeze. As a measure of intimidation, they started to shot
their guns to the air. Immediately, all the deputies crouched down and tried
to hide. Only Suárez stayed on his seat.
Well, there are theories... Maybe they're just nonsense. Who knows. Some
people think that the "coup" was directed secretly by the Crown. You don't
need to believe that, of course. It was clear that the Socialist Party was
going to win the next elections. At that time, the Socialist Party was much
more left-oriented than now. There were doubts about if socialists would
respect the monarchy or try to bring back the republic. The "coup" could be
a manoeuvre to show WHO really held the reins and who could really keep the
military under control.
About being more than an idle rich King. Well, honestly I don't know what
else he is. Even though he had a significan role in the transition to the
democracy, this is not reason for us to support all his family's hobbies and
caprices for ever and ever. A growing family, by the way! What use is for
the democracy that the King, his son and his daughter take part in regattas,
as they use to do? Who pay that? Who paid the sumptuous weddings of the two
princesses? And now is the question of the prince's palace: he says he has
not enough private space in the royal palace, and so it's beginning the
construction of another minor palace for him. No, modern democracies don't
work that way.
> Of the places that had
> fallen under dictatorships "so called left" or "so called right wing" it
> would appear that Spain has faired better than most.
Yes, somehow we managed to get through all the mess, but Franco left behind
many years of stagnation in development, industry, culture, etc.
> In regards to the
> monument that the Franco government built, you are correct that it is to
all
> the fallen in the Spanish Civil War.
>
Well, as I said to Zvonimir:
The memorial is called a monument to "the Fallen". As far as I know, it's
not specified which are these fallen. For the regime, the enemies were all
"marxist demons". I personally doubt that Franco included them among their
fallen, although the name of the memorial (and the valley where it's built)
may seem so ambiguous to lead to a wide sense of "fallen". I was never
there; I don't know what it's written there, but in my oppinion anything
which indicated a recognition for all the fallen would be just to make a
good impression. What you probably don't know is that the memorial was built
with the forced work of republican prisioners.
See you
Victor Quero
Jakov Nissim
"Victor Querosene" <ap...@sumi.es> wrote:
>
> :-) This was funny. Really. I think it's the funniest thing that has
> happened to me in a NG.
>
> My name is Victor Quero Moya, and I live in Sabadell, medium city
near to
> Barcelona. I live in the land called Catalonia, which has its own
history,
> culture and language, and all my family comes from Andalusia, in the
south
> of Spain. No Croatian blood at all.
>
> So why do you think that denouncing injustices committed by the State
of
> Israel is Croatian propaganda? Somebody said you have an
anti-Croatian
> paranoia; I'm beginning to think that he was right.
>
> By the way, I never insulted you.
Yes, you do! You insited me telling lies about my people. As to the
story above, if you add something more, it might be very interesting
for some ppsychiatrist.
>
> Shalom --not for you, but...
>
>
Jakov Nissim
"Sinisa Kolaric" <nospam_sin...@vz.tel.hr> wrote:
>
> Highly visual remark, mr. Nissim, but....
> What has this to do with the original topic?
Ms. Sinisa, the original topic within the Roger Alexander's post I
replied to - was the spirit of his post.
> (Modern Israel as a state?)
>
> -s
>
>
Jakov Nissim
"Sinisa Kolaric" <nospam_sin...@vz.tel.hr> wrote:
>
> Godwin's Law of Nazi Anallogies:
> As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a
> comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.0.
>
All that math comes from the education you've got at Zagreb University
plus your elephant IQ.
Victor Querosene
> man. When I first heard about it. I was confused but then thought that it
> reflects very positively on the guy. Its not a black and white issue as
so
> many would have you believe.
>
Anything is a black and white issue, nor the war in Croatia and Bosnia was
so. But you should know that it's impossible to support ETA and Franco at
the same time... Everybody here would laugh at such idea.
I don't support ETA. But if you are a nationalist, you should understand how
Euskadi and Catalonia suffered under Franco's regime. If you can swallow
that Franco was a hero who smashed evil marxists and red priests, it's your
choice. But Franco did with my country the same that Karadjordjevic did and
Milosevic tried to do with yours. Catalan language was forbidden, Catalonian
identity ridiculed and repressed.
I'm happy that he died before I was born.
Victor Querosene
Jakov Nissim <jakov...@my-deja.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
> As to the
> story above, if you add something more, it might be very interesting
> for some ppsychiatrist.
>
¿De verdad? Oh, bueno, veamos... Olvidé decir que tengo un perro.
(Really? Oh, well, let's see... I forgot to say that I have a dog.)
Vamos, Jacobo, no te pongas tan nervioso. Hay una vena en tu cuello que
parece a punto de reventar, y tus ojos están que se salen de sus cuencas...