Why is Go a Japanese Game?
Xiao Li
Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
than it is "Japanese."
And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
name.
I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
Kaz
"Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
Hey Xiao Li, I think Go is just Go, and it doesn't matter where it was first
created.
Why do you stick to its origin so much?
You deny it, but you surely sound like a Chinese supremacist.
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Kaz
"Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
I recall the Chinese once even accused Italians as "Spaghetti was originated
in China, and Italians are trying to claim credit for things they just
copied from China". Xiao Li, you sound like a Chinese racist claiming a
person who is not Chinese doesn't deserve to play a Go game or eat
Spaghetti. What a bigot you are!
Mike Vaughn
> The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
> Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
> than it is "Japanese."
>
> And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
> name.
The main reason is that the game arrived in the West via Japan. Writers
like Korschelt and Arthur Smith learned the gmae in Japan, and wrote
their books for western readers.
I learned go in California, by playing Westerners in a coffeehouse,
and visiting the Nihon Kiin in San Francisco. Also from books written
by Japanese which were trnaslated into Englisg, and a magazine
"Monthly Go Review" published by the Nihon Kiin.
At the time, I believe that weiqi was not encouraged in China. But
perhaps you are too young to know about China before 1965.
> I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
> trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
The Japanese are not trying to claim anything.
What are you trying to claim?
--
Mike Vaughn
"A ship is safe in a harbor --
But that is not what ships are built for."
J Lee
I don't think anyone is claiming anything. The Japanese game is GO. The
Chinese game is WEI CHI.
Chen Wang
been that the terminologies used in Go is easier to pronounce and
remember in Japanese than is in Chinese.
In rec.games.go J Lee <puug3c...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
: "Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
ro...@telus.net
>I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
>trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
Like ethnocentrism...?
-- Roy L
Vincent Lim
the Weiqi (go/baduk). But Japanese do have credit on "modernise" weiqi, and
put them into systematic teaching, setup professional ladder system and
advance of the weiqi game, include fuseki, joseki and so on. As a Malaysia
chinese I do thank for the Japanese popular the game and promote the game
into at art and internationalisation the game, and make it possible for
cross cultural and country game play.
Thank you.
Vincent Lim (kklim)
Malaysia
"Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
vernon...@oyama.ca
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>
>
> "Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
> > The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
> > Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
> > than it is "Japanese."
> >
> > And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
> > name.
> >
> > I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
> > trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
>
> I recall the Chinese once even accused Italians as "Spaghetti was originated
> in China, and Italians are trying to claim credit for things they just
> copied from China".
But is it true or false, K-K-K-kaz?
> Xiao Li, you sound like a Chinese racist claiming a
> person who is not Chinese doesn't deserve to play a Go game or eat
> Spaghetti. What a bigot you are!
>
You are the last person who has room to accuse others of racism, you
racist four-legged pink-skinned animal with a curly tail and cloven
hooves.
Verno
Hoklo Taiwanese
Hoklo Taiwanese
"Mike Vaughn" <mtva...@neu.REMOVE.edu> wrote in message
news:310820032213318413%mtva...@neu.REMOVE.edu...
Robert Jasiek
Hoklo Taiwanese wrote:
> the game should be called 'weiqi' not 'go.'
Why should any of the following be superior to the others?
go
Go
igo
ki
qi
weiqi
wei-ch'i
baduk
padok
Apart from the minor issue of transliteration, the following
could be considered important for the name:
1) the current spreading of the game
2) the origin of the game
3) the language in that the name is used
4) the name is not confused with other meanings of the same word
(1)
World-wide.
(2)
South-east mainland Asia.
(3)
Various.
(4)
"go" (lower case first letter) is a bad choice.
***
Conclusion: If emphasis is put on (1), then the most suitable
name would fit into the language of world-wide communication,
i.e. English. If emphasis is put on (2), then a Chinese name
is probably more suitable than other names. "go" should be
avoided in contexts where the word is not easily distinguished
from the verb "go".
--
robert jasiek
Hoklo Taiwanese
wouldn't mind even if it's called 'chess.'
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:3F548155...@snafu.de...
Bob the Younger
thinking and it's destructiveness in the modern world, but your two word
post trumps absolutely anything I could write.
Well done sir! *bow*
<ro...@telus.net> wrote in message news:3f539dcc...@news.telus.net...
gowan
> the game should be called 'weiqi' not 'go.'
>
The game IS called "Weiqi" in China and Taiwan and by Chinese speakers
elsewhere. It is called "Baduk" in Korea and "Igo" in Japan. It
happens to be called "Go" in English and other Western languages.
This is an artifact of how the game became known to Westerners, not
any assertion of historical origin or cultural superiority. Next
we'll be hearing that because what we call "gunpowder" was invented by
the Chinese we have to use the Chinese name for it.
Robert Jasiek
Hoklo Taiwanese wrote:
> as long as everyone knows the game originated in china 4000 yrs ago
There is no proof that the game was invented in China. (What were
the borders of China at that time?) There are only strong
indications that the game was invented in or in the neighbourhood
of China.
--
robert jasiek
pions
'weiqi' is superior?
'weiqi' embodies the spirit of the games, if you understand the chinese
terms. It also captures organically the source of the origin and is the
correct romanised term from the country of origin! If we really have to
choose and standardised a name - then I think it should include these
considerations as well. And if a langugae has to adopt a term or a name,
adaptation from the original term is should be the top candidate for
consideration.
The western world has got used to the japanese terms. And the Chinese has
not made any attempt to popularise the chinese terms, other than a few such
as the one who posted this thread. Even the Chinese pros, leaving overseas,
use japanese terms!, at least from the books and comments, etc that I have
read.
So let the Darwinian process decides.
"Robert Jasiek" <jas...@snafu.de> wrote in message
news:3F548155...@snafu.de...
>
>
Jim Gillogly
> as long as everyone knows the game originated in china 4000 yrs ago, i
> wouldn't mind even if it's called 'chess.'
I'd mind -- I was reading an English translation of "Genji Monogatari"
and it referred to people playing chess. Ack! Even worse than the
Seidensticker translation of "Meijin" that uses awkward English
circumlocutions for standard terms such as "ko threat" (or is it
"paetgam" or "jie2 cae2"?): "a play from the ko situation to a
distant part of the board." Perhaps a less ungainly translation
can be made when the Hikaru generation comes of age.
Others have given the historical reasons it's been called Go in
western countries. However, in this day of Google it would be
helpful to *me* at least if there were a more distinctive word
to use in searches. I don't care whether it's weiqi, igo, baduk
or anything else realistic... but "go" and "chess" and "fizzbin"
don't help narrow down the hit lists enough.
--
Jim Gillogly
Highday, 9 Halimath S.R. 2003, 00:00
12.19.10.9.17, 7 Caban 5 Mol, Eighth Lord of Night
Peace2Peace
Come Cum Com,
Gunpowder is gunpowder but here is the following relative terms in
general:
There is
Gunpowder, "originated" in China
as a historical fact and statement!
and
Gunpowder, Made in "Insert Country of Manufacturer"
Now as to the "Weiqi" question, if Japanese Go game is different in
anyway from the original Chinese Weiqi, then the term Japanese Go is
then justified.
However, if all rules for the game of Go is the same as the original
Weiqi, it is then not acceptable of course to pedantic Chinese that it
is called Japanese Something when it is still clearly a Chinese First!!!!!
Now, about Italian Spaghetti, it's fine to call it Italian Spaghetti
because no Chinese ever started cooking noodle like the Italian before
the Italians themselves.
However, the Italian may not claim to have "invented" Noodle!!!!!!
The Same Rule Shall Apply To Everything Else that is Historically Proven
To Be a CHINESE FIRST!
On 2 Sep 2003 06:40:24 -0700
Robert Jasiek
Peace2Peace wrote:
> However, if all rules for the game of Go is the same as the original
> Weiqi, it is then not acceptable of course to pedantic Chinese that it
> is called Japanese Something when it is still clearly a Chinese First!!!!!
Since the rules in China changed and still change, do you conclude
that the current Chinese game should not be called weiqi when an old
form of the Chinese game is called weiqi? :)
--
robert jasiek
Sam Sloan
Although go originated in China, it came to America and Europe by way
of Japan.
Go was banned in China for ten years during the Cultural Revolution.
It was during those same years that go became popular in the West.
Thus we came to accept that go is a Japanese game even though we now
realize that go originally came from China.
Sam Sloan
Mark Space
> 4) the name is not confused with other meanings of the same word
> "go" (lower case first letter) is a bad choice.
But "Go" is bad English. It's chess, checkers, and go. Lower case is
appropriate to names of board games. Names of games are only
capitalized when it's a trademark, like Monopoly.
Now, whoever brought up the point about Internet searches for the word
"go" was right on. I'd happily change the official (English) name to
igo, baduk, weiqui, or any other unique arrangement of letters just to
be able to search reliably for information! :)
Hoklo Taiwanese
i don't have proof. go seek prove from experts.
> -
> robert jasiek
>
Hoklo Taiwanese
instead of 'igo' or 'go' would make it easier for all the japanese to know
that 'igo' is a chinese game in origin. i actually don't care what it's
called, as long as everyone knows its origin.
"gowan" <gow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fab2a28f.03090...@posting.google.com...
Peace2Peace
Chinese Old Weiqi
and
Chinese New Weiqi ;-)
So if the rules change everyday, then every yesterday kind of weiqi game
is OLD and only Current/Today is the New.
I think to pacify pedantic Chinese or people of similar minded, perhaps
it would have been more palatable if it had been called Japanese Weiqi
("e i ki" in hiragana maybe) instead of Japanese Go ;-) Calling it
Japanese Weiqi will denote the game is of a Japanese flavour or
peculiarity yet at the same time maintaining the original root of the
game by keeping its Chinese name intact.
A similar case for study will be the now "internationalised" game of
Mahjongg:-)
You can have Italian Mahjongg, Japanese Mahjongg, Irish Mahjongg.. hehe
Everyone can happily and freely have a piece of this legacy passed down
by the supposedly bs myth of "8 demigods(1 goddess included) crossing
the sea".
Up till the the late 80s, Japanese like to distant themselves from the
Chinese genetically(Not that Japanese are of pure Chinese extract in any
sense).
In the early 70s I think it was they were flattered with the bestowed
of the appellative of "honorary whites" by perhaps an economically dired
strait White South Africa.
If China is tomorrow NEW USA, we may find quite a new mentality rising
among the Japanese.
Jonathan
Peace2Peace
Explanation accepted!!!
Let the Japanese have a Go then ;-)
Any anybody else for that matter!!!
AGOGO GO GO GO!!!!! wooohooo!!!!!!
Jonathan
kklim
the Weiqi (go/baduk). But Japanese do have credit on "modernise" weiqi, and
put them into systematic teaching, setup professional ladder system and
advance of the weiqi game, include fuseki, joseki and so on. As a Malaysia
chinese I do thank for the Japanese popular the game and promote the game
into at art and internationalisation the game, and make it possible for
cross cultural and country game play.
Thank you.
Vincent Lim (kklim)
Malaysia
Stedd...@yahoo.com (Xiao Li) wrote in message news:<85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com>...
Robert Jasiek
Mark Space wrote:
> Now, whoever brought up the point about Internet searches for the word
> "go" was right on. I'd happily change the official (English) name to
> igo, baduk, weiqui, or any other unique arrangement of letters just to
> be able to search reliably for information! :)
http://www.dmoz.org helps you to find everything.
--
robert jasiek
Marcus Metzler
> The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
> Japan only in 8th Century AD.
Well, every nation has his history - with very fine elements (for
instance the Wonders of the World like the Chinese Wall) - and of course
sad events like genocides (every nation had their own some are deeper
buried in time, some are into our current time). History is nothing to
be proud of, one can't chose his history prior to birth; it is just
something to help understand how things became the way they are now -
how they influenced society and oneself.
There is no meaning in trying to be proud (or be sorrow) of ones history
- it is only a way to explain how oneself became the way one is at this
time.
> Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
> than it is "Japanese."
Well, the game neither; it is a human game; it is a game of logic; it is
game that can be used to project thoughts onto the board - at least to
me.
> And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
> name.
Well, I guess anyone who plays this game for a bit longer knows the
origin, knows that its rules changed over time, that at some time in
history one nation put great efforts in it to enhance the game. Well it
happend just that way but does this change in any way the game I play
today? Would a move I play be better if I call the game Weichi? Does it
help to call it Igo or Baduk? No, the only meaning to the word I use is
to communicate 'I play this game called ******' - and since this word
only useful for communication one could argue within that reasoning (is
the word exact, can't it be confused with another, if it is often used
is it short enough etc...) But history is not within this reasoning, it
is just a footnote in a book, an entry in a lexicary, some essay in a
book about classical boardgames.
> I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
> trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
Well, there are always some kind of people who try to bestow themselves
with their countries history like peacocks, trying to look better then
others with 'less' history or who try to degrade others history by
underrating their efforts or by claiming their efforts as their own.
Language is a powerful weapon to do this and I agree renaming things is
one of the means to do this.
But then re-renaming things back to their original name - what is it
good for? It can be only good for one reason - the same reason the thing
was renamed in the first place.
There will always be people who say 'Hey you arrogant Japanese - it is
called weichi - we invented it; so it should be called -weichi-'
And of course there will be always people shouting 'Hey you stupid
Chinese - you couldn't play igo properly until we put a lot of research
and effort into it; so it should be called -igo-'
Well, they are both very wrong, since they never invented it neither
improved or researched it; there is a high chance that they wont even be
able to win against some computer. Fact is - there were some humans
living in a place at least today known as China who invented it, and
some other humans living in a place today known as Japan who researched
a lot on the game. The shouters did nothing except - well - shouting and
trying to look smart for the brilliant thoughts some other had in
history.
Just my thoughts....
murx
James
Africa.
"Peace2Peace" <plse...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20030903093510...@yahoo.com...
Bob the Younger
let a psychopathic moron destroy their country's history. China should be
glad that Japan, Korea and the rest of the world has kept such a fascinating
part of China's history alive for future generations (hopefully slightly
more sensible people) to enjoy.
"Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:3f5567fe...@ca.news.verio.net...
Bill Spight
> And yet people call it as a Japanese game
Some people who are ignorant of the game do that. Who cares what
ignorant people say?
Best,
Bill
Jim Gillogly
It helps you find some things, but I don't see my favorites on the
list at http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Board_Games/Abstract/Territory_Games/Go/ .
If Gobase, Momoyama Go News or Jan van Rongen's page are there, I didn't
find them.
To put it another way, it shows an aggregate of 122 links for go.
Google finds 29,800 links for baduk, 50,200 for weiqi, 1,950
for weichi, and 256,000 for wei chi. Oh, and 24,800 for "go game".
There's a place for carefuly crafted directories that have nicely
selected links, but there's also a place for being able to cast
a wide net and then draw it in closer.
David Bogie
> I learned go in California, by playing Westerners in a coffeehouse,
I learned how to play go in Idaho.
I thought it was invented by a guy from Pocatello.
He was never in China and he didn't look all that old.
david boise ID
vernon...@oyama.ca
bogi...@mac.com says...
;-)
But then, so have I.
Verno
gr...@cs.uwa.edu.au
: books written by Japanese which were trnaslated into Englisg
I don't usually indulge in spelling flames, but this is pretty funny. :)
-Greg(ObMitsake)
Ribes cynosbati
> On 31 Aug 2003 18:08:08 -0700, Stedd...@yahoo.com (Xiao Li) wrote:
>
> >The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
> >Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
> >than it is "Japanese."
That is fine. But again, the question (as someone else presented
already) is, what does "China" mean 4,000 years ago? What does
"Japan" mean 4,000 years ago?
> >And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
> >name.
> >
> >I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
> >trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
There is no need to argue. You can propose a new Usenet forum
"rec.games.weiqi" for discussions about Go/Baduk/Weiqi/Weichi. If
netters abandon rec.games.go completely while turning to
rec.games.weiqi and the former forum is flooded with spams, then the
world will know the game as "weiqi" in another 5 or 10 years.
On the other hand, if in the forum "rec.games.weiqi" people only
discuss what was invented by Chinese, why it was "abacus" rather than
"Suan Pan", then discussions about the game will still be carried out
in "rec.games.go" and in another 50 years the game is still known as
"Go".
> Although go originated in China, it came to America and Europe by way
> of Japan.
>
> Go was banned in China for ten years during the Cultural Revolution.
> It was during those same years that go became popular in the West.
> Thus we came to accept that go is a Japanese game even though we now
> realize that go originally came from China.
I wonder if you can provide more details about how Go was banned in
China during the Cultural Revolution, and, maybe the limit was pushed
even harder, say, a well-known Go/Baduk/Weiqi Chinese player was
penalized for playing the game "left by the stinky Chinese culture (I
tried to speculate what the Red Guards might shout to him during
Cultural Revolution, if it did happen)" and forced to go to labor
camps.
Pions
Where is MR XIAO LI? You started this thread with strong feeling but never
made a single attempt to follow up and/or counter some arguments!!!
"Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
> The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
> Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
> than it is "Japanese."
>
Juan
INHO, History is made up of stories, and each of us has one to tell.
Now, which stories are chosen to be writen in a book depends on many
different factors. For example, some people think that go/weiqi/baduk
could have been invented in Tibet, but tibetans are not writing their
own History; other guys are pickin' their stories instead.
Juan
Mike Vaughn
My spelling is perfect - my aim at the keyboard is off, and my left hand
doesn't know what my right hand is doing ;-)
--
Mike Vaughn
"A ship is safe in a harbor --
But that is not what ships are built for."
EAC
> America and Europe by way of Japan.
And so... "Go" is an imported game!
And when that happens? After Japan become heavily westernized.
> Go was banned in China for ten years during the Cultural Revolution.
> It was during those same years that go became popular in the West.
Hmmm... The plot thickens.
> Thus we came to accept that go is a Japanese game
> even though we now realize that go originally came from China.
Interesting the fact that "Go" itself is not the Japanese name of the
game itself.
By therefore, I declare that "Go" is NOT a Japanese game, "Igo" is.
"Go" is also NOT a Chinese game, "Weiqi" is.
> Sam Sloan
EAC
> True dat. It's not Japan or the Western world's fault that
> China decided to let a psychopathic moron destroy their country's history.
Maybe this psychopath has a backing from outside China?
It's interesting that "Go" become famous during the Meiji Restoration,
when old Japan was systemically dismantled piece by piece, and
reconstructed according to the will of the constructors.
And it's also interesting that the Japanese themself call the game
"Igo" and not "Go".
Perharps... "Go" is neither a Japanese nor Chinese game after all?
Either case, both Japanese and Chinese' histories are destroyed. "Go"
got stuck as a Japanese game, eventhough the Japanese called it "Igo",
and China many times goes uncredited for delivering "Go".
It's not the first time the Chinese lost such a records, remember
Zheng He's journey's into America? It's interesting that a few decades
later (after Zheng He's records and ships were destroyed), Columbus
sailed into America and lands in Cuba with a map that guide him there.
Maybe there's a connection between these two events?
Maybe the real perpetrators are hundred of years old and maybe even
longer?
> China should be glad that Japan, Korea and the rest of the world has
> kept such a fascinating part of China's history alive for future generations
> (hopefully slightly more sensible people) to enjoy.
To be much precise "for future generations to waste their times with".
Inferno XV
wrote:
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>
>"Xiao Li" <Stedd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:85ab2228.0308...@posting.google.com...
>> The game originated in China 4,000 years ago and was introduced into
>> Japan only in 8th Century AD. Clearly, this game is more "Chinese"
>> than it is "Japanese."
>>
>> And yet people call it as a Japanese game and to it by it's Japanese
>> name.
>>
>> I guess this is one of the many instances where the Japanese are
>> trying to claim credit for things they just copied from China.
>
>I recall the Chinese once even accused Italians as "Spaghetti was originated
>in China, and Italians are trying to claim credit for things they just
>copied from China". Xiao Li, you sound like a Chinese racist claiming a
>person who is not Chinese doesn't deserve to play a Go game or eat
>Spaghetti. What a bigot you are!
Hmm. It *IS* true that Spaghetti originated from the early travels of
western traders to China. Here, I refer only to the concept of Pasta
as Noodles - be they flat or round. The Romans had the concept of
Pasta in sheets, or filled shapes - these are mentioned in Apicus, for
example.