Celts in Spain
Jpparle
THE CELTS IN SPAIN
Each year there is a pan-Celtic festival in Lorient, Brittany, on the
northwestern coast of France. The six traditional Celtic "nations" celebrate
there, those held together by the Celtic family of languages: Ireland,
Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, and the Isle of Man. But each year at
Lorient there is also a contingent from the Galicia province of Spain, and
they too celebrate their Celtic heritage, and are welcomed by Gaelic and
Brythonic festival goers.
The notion of a Celtic Spain doesn't usually come to mind immediately to
lovers of the Gaels, but in fact the Celts have a long tradition in Spain, in
both history and in mythology. And as we shall see, Celtic influences are still
strong in Galicia, and its nearby province of Asturia, Spain. We begin our
story of the Celts in Spain in a time before written history.
–The Celtiberians
In ancient times, the peninsula of Spain was called Iberia. The indigenous
Iberians there spoke a language that was not Indo-European, the latter being
the broad family of languages spoken today in almost all countries in Europe.
Some even speculate that the Iberian language may have resembled in some ways
present-day Basque, spoken in northern Spain, and one of the few remnants of
the indigenous continental languages before the Indo-European Invasion.
But we don't know all that much about the Iberians, for they thrived in an age
before historians chronicled events. We largely depend on archaeological traces
to piece together some picture of what the ancient Iberians were like. One
fascinating source is over a thousand Iberian inscriptions, written in their
own script which was heavily influenced by the Phoenician alphabet. Although
archeologists are unable to translate the Iberian inscriptions, they are
evidence that a Iberian literature likely existed. Professor Barry Cunliffe
states that the Iberians of southern and eastern Spain were a people embracing
the beginnings of Mediterranean culture.
By the eighth century B.C. the Phoenicians had developed areas on the southern
coast of Spain, and founded what became the trade city of Cadiz. These areas
were later further developed by the Carthaginians, themselves colonists of the
Phoenicians. The demand for tin in making bronze brought Galicia in northern
Spain into the trade spectrum, along with Brittany and Cornwall. But in the
central regions of Spain something new was happening. An Indo-European culture
was beginning to make a presence. The Celts were coming.
In circa 450 B.C., the Greek historian Herodotus, the Father of History,
reported that the Celts were by then in Spain. Over time, these Celts became
known as Celtiberians. Ancient writer Diodorus Siculus reported:
"In ancient times these two peoples, namely the Iberians and the Celts, kept
warring among themselves over land. But when later they arranged their
differences and settled upon the land altogether, and when they went further
and agreed to intermarriage with each other, because of such intermixture, the
two peoples received the appellation Celtiberian. And since it was two powerful
nations that united and the land of theirs was fertile, it came to pass that
the Celtiberians advanced far in fame."
Just when the Celts made they way into Spain is a matter of opinion. Cunliffe
believes they were there by the 500s B.C., and some experts say earlier.
Evidence for an earlier arrival is found in the craftsmanship of the
Celtiberians. There is a multitude of Hallstatt-period Celtic metalwork
pieces, but relatively little La Tene type work in Spain. . Perhaps the Celts
were already established in Spain before La Tene style began to develop
elsewhere in circa 500 B.C. Cunliffe also suggests that Celtic spoken in Spain
was more ancient than Celtic Gaulish once spoken in present-day France. Some
experts believe that the Celts came to Spain by way of invasion, others believe
they arrived by gradual migration. Some say the Celts came in two waves.
The Celtiberians were comprised of numerous tribes, the best known being the
Arevaci. Other Celtiberian tribes were the Vaccaei, the Berones, the Belli,
the Titti, and the Lusones. Cunliffe states other Celtic tribes in Spain were
the Galli in the Pyrenees, the Gallaeci in the Galicia area of the northwest
corner of Spain, the Gallaecia in northern Portugal, and the Celtici in
southwestern Spain and Portugal. The areas the Celts thrived in Spain were the
central, northern, and western regions. These Celts had hillforts for
protection, often call "castros" by archeologists.
What were the Celtiberians like? Diodorus Siculus tells us that they were
warlike, but were also noted for their hospitality, believing that strangers
were under divine protection. The Celtiberians made hospitality pacts among
themselves as well, though political organization beyond the tribal level was
rare. Chieftains had behind them a corps of sworn warriors. The Celtiberians
gained renown as mercenaries in the Carthaginian army, and later as fine
auxiliary cavalry in the Roman army. The Celtiberians used two-edged iron
swords, shorter than the great longer Celtic sword used elsewhere. They used
both round shields, as well as the better known long body-shields used by
Celts. Death in battle was considered glorious, and leading to entry to heaven.
Among the Celtiberian Vaccaei tribe, the harvests were held as common
property to all, and reapportioned to the tribe families. The Celtiberians wore
a distinctive metal torc. Dueling and cattle-raiding were common. They were
know for a very unconventional means of washing themselves and cleaning their
teeth. The Celtiberians practiced cremation as the burial rite. Perhaps the
most famous Celtiberian was Martial (d. 104 A.D.), the Latin poet. The most
famous civilian visitor to the Celtiberians was the stoic philosopher
Poseidonius (d. 50 B.C.).
–The Celtiberian Language
Celtiberian was one of the several now extinct continental Celtic languages.
Linguists say that what made the Celtiberians a Celtic people was that they
spoke a Celtic language. Experts believe that Celtiberian was of the q-Celt
variety, now spoken in Ireland and other Gaelic areas. Celtic geographic
placenames are found throughout the central, northern, and western parts of
Spain. In writing, the Celtiberians mostly used the Iberian script to form
syllabic written words. To see an example of the Celtiberian script, click the
website below on the World Wide Web:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/celtiberian.htm
Perhaps the best archaeological find on the Celtiberian Celtic language was
the Botorrita plaque, a long inscription on a bronze tablet found near
Saragossa, Spain. It is in the Iberian scipt, but in Celtic words. Experts say
that it was a Celtiberian hospitality pact. Below is a paragraph from the
Botorrita plaque, transcribed from Iberian into Latin script. From this you
can see how Celtiberian sounded, even though the English translation was not
provided on the Internet website from which this came. Experts say the text is
loaded with Celtic words and some Iberian loan-words.
Celtiberian from the ancient Botorrita plaque:
"Tiricantam percunetacam tocoitos'cue s'arniciocue s'ua compalces nelitom.
necue to (u)ertaunei litom necue taunei litom necue mas'nai tisaunei litom,
s'os aucu ares'talo tamai. uta os'cues s'tena uersoniti, s'ilapur s'leitom
cons'cilitom capiseti, cantom s'ancilis'tara otanaum tocoitei eni."
–Africanus Major, Africanus Minor, and the Fall of Numantia
Carthage, an ancient nation on the coast of North Africa, had become a
military power in Spain, and the Second Punic War (218-201 B.C.) between
Carthage and Rome was in effect a battle over which would control Spain. In
this war the Carthaginian general Hannibal crossed the Alps, and for a while
carried on a successful military campaign in Italy. But the Roman general
Publius Cornelius Scipio, later called Africanus Major, landed a Roman army in
northern Africa, and Hannibal was called back from Italy. Scipio decisively
defeated Hannibal in Africa in 202 B.C., and Rome thus won the war.
After this, Carthage lost its hold in Spain, and Rome moved quickly to impose
its rule there. But the Celtiberians and related tribes were still strong in
Spain. What emerged was armed resistence by the Celtic peoples against the
Romans for a period of about seventy years. At times this was a guerilla war,
and other times a conventional confrontation of armies. The Celtiberians
proved to be one of the formidable foes of the Romans. These Celtic warriors
marched into battle singing spirited war hymns and wearing awe-inspiring
plumed helmets (according to Diodorus Siculus).
A key moment in the conflict was when a warrior named Viriatus rose in 147
B.C. to lead the Celtic peoples. Viriatus himself was of the Lusitanian tribe
in what is now Portugal. (Some argue that the Lusitanians were not themselves
completely Celtic, though they were able to form a battle alliance with the
Celtiberians.) Variatus defeated a Roman army in open battle, and forced the
Romans on the spot into a peace treaty that was not in the latter's favor.
However the government in Rome did not ratify the treaty, and opted instead for
covert activity. A relative of Variatus was bribed by the Romans, and fatally
stabbed him from behind.
But the Celtiberians did not remain quiet. About a decade later Rome decided
to destroy the cental hub of the Celtiberians. They chose to take the hill
stronghold of Numantia, near the present-day city of Soria in central Spain.
Here 8,000 Celtiberians lived, mostly of the Arevacian tribe. Numantia was a
well-defended town,.with a street grid of stone and mud-brick buildings.
The Romans sent an army under Scipio Aemilianus to capture Numantia. This
Scipio was called Africanus Minor, because of his successful military campaign
against Carthage in the Third :Punic War, where he ended the conflict by
literally leveling all the buildings in Carthage. This Scipio was the adopted
grandson of Africanus Major.
Scipio Aemilianus learned that the Celtiberians at Numantia had repelled every
attack made on the town for fourteen years. Scipio opted for a siege, and
built a wall around Numantia, so that no supplies could get in. And the Roman
army just sat there for 16 months. The people in Numantia in the meantime were
starving. Finally the Celtiberians there burned their belongings and killed
themselves in large numbers, such that only a few survived the ordeal. Scipio
walked into the fortified city to be greeted by virtually no defenders, and he
did what he had done previously in Carthage–in 133 B.C. he leveled all the
buildings of Numantia.
–Celtic Galicia in Ancient Times
The northwest corner of Spain consists of the province of Galicia, with its
main cities of La Coruna and Lugo. Celtic links here go way back, even to the
extent that some say La Coruna was named after the Celtic god Cernunnos, and
that Lugo was named after the Celtic god Lugh.
In the mythology of the Celtic Irish, Galicia plays a primary role, for the
Irish believed that their Celtic forefathers came to Ireland from northern
Spain, the Galicia area. According to the myth, the Celts came first to Spain
led by a mythic character named Brath. His son was the legendary King Breagon,
who settled the Celtic town of Brigantia, considered to be the present city of
La Coruna on the coast. King Breagon built a massive tower there, in which
according to myth his sons could see Ireland. Today at La Coruna there stands
the Tower of Hercules, the oldest functioning lighthouse in the Western world.
Although it was built by the Romans, some speculate that an earlier Celtic
tower existed on the same spot.
So the successive generations of mythic Celtic leaders in Spain went as
follows: 1) Brath, 2) Breagon, 3) Ith and Bile, 4) Mil, and 5) Amergin, Eber,
and Eremon. It was this last generation of Celts that invaded Ireland,
according to myth. They were called the Celtic Milesians, because they were
the sons of Mil.
Conventional history tells us that after the fall of Numantia in 133 B.C.,
there were still pockets of Celtic resistance in Spain. One of these was in
Galicia. In 61 B.C. Julius Caesar had had enough of the feisty Celts there. He
brought an army into Galicia and stormed the Celtic capital of Brigantia, and
took the city. Soon Caesar conquered the region, annexed the province for Rome,
and became its governor. In the next generation, Augustus conquered the nearby
Asturio-Cantabrian area, thus finally quieting all the Celtic peoples of Spain
by 19 B.C. With these conquests in hand, gradually Latin replaced the
Celtiberian language in Spain, and Roman culture began to be a dominating force
in the region.
–Celtic Galica Today
Today, the native language of Galicia is Gallego. It is not a Celtic
language, but rather a Latin-based Romance language, resembling Spanish and
Portuguese. Although the language of the people is not Celtic, there are
groups of people in modern Galicia who see remnants of Celtic culture still
alive there. In an article entitled "In Search of Celtic Heritage in Galicia,
Spain," cultural anthropologist Elyn Aviva reports:
"In the nineteenth century, Galician writer Eduardo Pindal led a highly
successful Celtic revival movement. His romantic epics proclaimed that
Gallegos–the inhabitants of modern-day Galicia–were not Spaniards but
Celts, the inheritors of a glorious past of heroism and independence. The
revival continues. In recent years it has become a mixture of Galician
political separatism, neopagan spirituality, and tourist promotion. Posters
featuring red-haired kilt-wearing warriors advertize Celtic music festivals,
and Celtic-style jewelry is sold in numerous shops. Hotels offer "queimadas,"
dramatic storytelling events performed over a bowl of flaming liquor, a ritual
said to go back to Celtic times."
The Aviva article points to numerous traces of the Celtic culture that remain
today in Galicia. Among these:
* In La Coruna, near the ancient Tower of Hercules, the Galicians have erected
a larger than life statue of King Breagon, the mythic Celtic king who was
said to have constructed a tower in that area.
* Also in La Coruna there is a sixty foot mosaic depicting the seven Celtic
nations as points on a star: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, the
Isle of Man, AND Galicia. (The eighth point on the star is the ancient area of
Tartessos in Spain, which like Asturia may too have had some Celtic
influences.)
* In 1996, a group of Galicians formed the League of Celtic Galicia, to honor
Celtic culture in the province. The motto of the league: "A people who forget
their origins lose their identity; a people who lose their identity become
dust."
* Folk musicians in Galicia play a bagpipe called a "gaita." These Galician
bagpipes are often featured at the Lorient Celtic Festival in Brittany.
* Women skilled in folk healing in Galicia, called "meigas," are thought to be
remnants of Celtic druid assistants from centuries ago.
* Rural folk in Galicia engage in step-dancing, reminiscent of other Celtic
dance forms.
* In Galician folk culture there is a world beneath the land surface where live
the "mouros," or the Ancient People. These are giants, dwarfs, and Little
People. These legendary characters may steal things from the market, or leave
treasures for some people, or punish a person if he claims to have seen them.
* In the Galician town of Piornedo, the townspeople have constructed a spacious
Celtic Museum, and they live in Celtic-style huts.
* The "queimados" storytelling events are a reminder of a time when Celtic
bards told the epic stories of a Celtic nation.
All of this having been said, it appears that still only a minority of people
in Galicia grasp or even are aware of their Celtic origins. This may be similar
to many Americans, Canadians, and Australians, whose ancestors emigrated from
Ireland or Scotland, and who may not really know that they are inheritors of a
rich Celtic culture..
Mhor Camba, one of the founders of the League of Celtic Galicia, puts things
this way: "What does being Celtic mean to me? It's about being close to
nature. About honoring the land, listening to nature. We've gotten too busy,
watching TV. The knowledge still exists in rural villages–not that they even
know they are Celtic, but it's how they behave anyway." {Quoted in the Aviva
article.)
Andres Pena, an archeologist and expert on Celtic Galicia, describes it like
this: "People in the countryside know they are Celtic. It's important to them.
And it's important to me. When I walk in the country, I can read the
landscape, who was living there and how they lived, like a book. Dolmens,
crosses, altars on the way for souls...I hear a legend told by an old lady and
I know it occurs elsewhere in Europe and how old it is!"
Celtic influences have existed in Spain for over two millennia–and have
become part of a folk culture that is valued there even now.
SOURCES AND REFERENCES
Simon James, The World of the Celts. (London: Thames and Hudson, 1993.)
Barry Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts. (London: Penguin Books, 1997.)
Gerhard Herm, The Celts. (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1975.)
Georges Dottin, The Civilization of the Celts. (New York: Crescent Books,
1970.)
British Broadcasting Company, The Celts. (Six hour videotape from the BBC
television series on Celtic culture, presented by Frank Delaney, 1986.)
Courtney Davis, Celtic Mandalas. (London: Blanford, 1994.)
Tom Kelly, Legendary Ireland. (Dublin: Town House, 1995.)
Peter Berresford Ellis, A Dictionary of Irish Mythology. (Oxford University
Press, 1991.)
Charles Squire, Celtic Myths and Legends. (New York: Gramercy Books, reprint in
1994.) Much thanks for the information in this volume, for it was the foremost
source for these articles.
Proinsias Mac Cana, Celtic Mythology. (New York: Bedrick Books, 1985.)
John Arnott MacCulloch, Mythology of All Races, volume three on Celtic
mythology. (New York: Cooper Square Publishers, originally in 1918, reprint in
1964.)
Lebor Gabala Erren (The Book of Invasions) from the Book of Leinster. (Irish
Texts Society, translated in 1939)
Thomas Cahill, How the Irish Saved Civilization. (New York: Doubleday, 1995.)
Robert MacNeil et al, The Story of English. (New York: Viking Press, 1986.)
Elyn Aviva, "A Living Fossil? In Search of Celtic Heritage in Galicia, Spain,"
in World & I (April 1999).
Encyclopaedia Britannica (2000 on-line edition and 1998 and 1966 print
editions).
World Book Encyclopedia (1982 print edition).
------------------------------------
Slán agat. Go n-éiri an bóthar leat!
Christopher Gwinn
> In the mythology of the Celtic Irish, Galicia plays a primary role, for
the
> Irish believed that their Celtic forefathers came to Ireland from
northern
> Spain, the Galicia area. According to the myth, the Celts came first to
Spain
> led by a mythic character named Brath.
Of course, the Irish didn't call them "Celts".
> His son was the legendary King Breagon, who settled the Celtic town of
Brigantia,
> considered to be the present city of La Coruna on the coast. King Breagon
built a massive > tower there, in which
> according to myth his sons could see Ireland. Today at La Coruna there
stands
> the Tower of Hercules, the oldest functioning lighthouse in the Western
world.
> Although it was built by the Romans, some speculate that an earlier Celtic
> tower existed on the same spot.
> So the successive generations of mythic Celtic leaders in Spain went as
> follows: 1) Brath, 2) Breagon, 3) Ith and Bile, 4) Mil, and 5) Amergin,
Eber,
> and Eremon.
This list is a horrible mish mash of native Irish traditions and
etymological speculations on the part of early medieval Spanish authors such
as Orosius and Isidore - it does not represent any genuinely ancient
Celtiberian tradition.
> It was this last generation of Celts that invaded Ireland,
> according to myth. They were called the Celtic Milesians, because they
were
> the sons of Mil.
No one ever called them "Celtic Milesians" (at least not until the 20th
century).
OK, now to burst some bubbles:
> The Aviva article points to numerous traces of the Celtic culture that
remain
> today in Galicia. Among these:
>
> * In La Coruna, near the ancient Tower of Hercules, the Galicians have
erected
> a larger than life statue of King Breagon, the mythic Celtic king who
was
> said to have constructed a tower in that area.
Why would they erect a statue to an eponymous figure invented by medieval
etymologists? Note that Breagon is an Irish attempt at spelling Brigantia,
thus "Breagon" is not genuinely Spanish.
> * Also in La Coruna there is a sixty foot mosaic depicting the seven
Celtic
> nations as points on a star: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany,
Cornwall, the
> Isle of Man, AND Galicia. (The eighth point on the star is the ancient
area of
> Tartessos in Spain, which like Asturia may too have had some Celtic
> influences.)
Why not points for Gaul, Galicia, Pannonia, etc., etc. - all of the places
have just as much claim to being Celtic as Galicia.
> * In 1996, a group of Galicians formed the League of Celtic Galicia, to
honor
> Celtic culture in the province. The motto of the league: "A people who
forget
> their origins lose their identity; a people who lose their identity become
> dust."
What about people that reinvent their identity?
> * Folk musicians in Galicia play a bagpipe called a "gaita." These
Galician
> bagpipes are often featured at the Lorient Celtic Festival in Brittany.
Hate to break the news to you, but bagpipes are common across Europe - they
are not particularly Celtic (I believe they were popular across the Roman
empire).
> * Women skilled in folk healing in Galicia, called "meigas," are thought
to be
> remnants of Celtic druid assistants from centuries ago.
Or they could be your general type of wise women common all across Europe
and not particularly descendant from any old priesthood.
> * Rural folk in Galicia engage in step-dancing, reminiscent of other
Celtic
> dance forms.
I don't believe that step dancing is particularly old in Celtic countries.
> * In Galician folk culture there is a world beneath the land surface where
live
> the "mouros," or the Ancient People. These are giants, dwarfs, and Little
> People. These legendary characters may steal things from the market, or
leave
> treasures for some people, or punish a person if he claims to have seen
them.
Almost every group of people on earth have stories like these.
> * The "queimados" storytelling events are a reminder of a time when Celtic
> bards told the epic stories of a Celtic nation.
Uh....every group of people on earth have storytellers
> All of this having been said, it appears that still only a minority of
people
> in Galicia grasp or even are aware of their Celtic origins. This may be
similar
> to many Americans, Canadians, and Australians, whose ancestors emigrated
from
> Ireland or Scotland, and who may not really know that they are inheritors
of a
> rich Celtic culture..
Hardly a rich Celtic culture - they lost their Celtic language and identity
nearly two millennia ago - the Galicians have merely been duped by modern
Celtic romanticism.
> Mhor Camba, one of the founders of the League of Celtic Galicia, puts
things
> this way: "What does being Celtic mean to me? It's about being close to
> nature. About honoring the land, listening to nature.
Uh...that's just being a decent human being - not a Celt. If that was the
definition of a Celt, then I guess traditional Native Americans and
Australian Aboriginies are Celts too.
> Andres Pena, an archeologist and expert on Celtic Galicia, describes it
like
> this: "People in the countryside know they are Celtic. It's important to
them.
> And it's important to me. When I walk in the country, I can read the
> landscape, who was living there and how they lived, like a book. Dolmens,
Dolmens pre-date the development of Celtic culture in Europe.
Don't get me wrong, I love Celtic culture, and will always defend it - but
this is mostly fuzzy-headed romanticism, completely out of touch with
reality. If people want to be Celts, let them study Celtic languages and
support those people still living in Celtic-speaking communities - that
would be a good place to start.
- Chris Gwinn
gerald.copp
> * Also in La Coruna there is a sixty foot mosaic depicting the
> seven Celtic nations
[...]
> This may be similar to many Americans, Canadians, and Australians, whose
ancestors emigrated > from Ireland or Scotland ...
... Ry'n ni yma o hyd ... Er gwaetha pawb a phobeth!
Pob Hwyl
Dave
"gerald.copp" <geral...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:qEZK7.4502$l42.6...@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
The Galicians do not even have the ghost of a Celtic language.
>
>
>
>
>
>
RSMcC III
news:9tjn5l$fvk$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
Well, maybe the Romans could have something to do with that? What about the
lack of a Celtic language in most of France, since France was Gaul and the
only Celtic part left is Brittany. Or the lack of a Celtic language in any
part of Turkey or what about the Celts of Greece?
Doug Weller
dunv...@swbell.net says...
[SNIP]
> r what about the Celts of Greece?
>
What Celts of Greece?
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:6bb40uct4d1kquc8k...@4ax.com...
> They become a nation
>
But not necessarily a Celtic one, just because some people would like to be
Celts doesn't make them into Celts. I could hardly go around claiming to be
a Zulu unless I learnt Zulu, lived in Zululand and participated to a degree
in Zulu culture and importantly was treated by Zulus as a Zulu - then I
might become one. Living in Cardiff, I don't think I'm a Zulu just because
I want to be one would sound convincing, just as I'm a celt because over
fifteen hundred years ago some of my ancestors were celts (but we'll forget
about all the other ancestors from all the other cultural and ethnic
groupings that went into making me), but in the mean time the language my
people express themselves in is not Celtic, the cultural traditions are
clearly Hispanic, in fact the only thing that makes us Celtic is a few bits
of folklore (possibly borrowed!) and a reference to a British community
which settled somewhere near Galicia but has long since gone!
The people of Andalucia might as well start calling themselves Germans as
they have much more continuity with the Vandals (whence (V)andalucia), than
the Galicians have with the modern Celtic countries.
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
Naw, you'd still be a blow-in ;)
Too true, too true!
Muiris
RSMcC III
news:MPG.166b5fb2...@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> In article <4CkL7.1268$En4.37...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
> dunv...@swbell.net says...
>
> [SNIP]
> > r what about the Celts of Greece?
> >
> What Celts of Greece?
>
> Doug
> --
Ummm, the ones that Alexander asked to keep an eye things while he went to
add to his holdings?
Druir
Hispania be called, humm, celtiberians?
And, do you think celts just _sprung up_ in the British Isles?
Juan Carlos Lopez
Creo que tu duda se responde alli.
http://www.galeon.com/iregua/cultura/espana.htm
Juan Carlos
"Druir" <dr...@netc.pt> escribió en el mensaje
news:3c1e373a$1...@212.18.160.197...
Druir
Yo no tengo duda. Mi respuesta era ironica.
Nuno Sousa
"Juan Carlos Lopez" <car...@eresmas.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:a1pru8$setik$1...@ID-113108.news.dfncis.de...