galicia in Ukraine
Miguel Sanchez
area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
ruffnready
That area is actually called "Galichina" in Russian or "Halychyna"
in Ukrainian which name descend from the townname "Galich" or "Halych"
in today's Ukrainian pronunciation.
Although there were attempts to connect this name with the Gauls,
obviously it has nothing to do with them. There is yet another town
called Galich ("Galich Mer'skiy") not far from the city of Kostroma,
where the Gauls never were for certain. Thus the most probable
etymology of the name in question has to deal with Slavic onomastics.
Lhiats, RR
Rebecca Hazlehurst
>Does anyone know whether there is a connection between the Gauls in the
>area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
>Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
>Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
No, but I have been reading about the African connections, which
include similarities in language and legends.
Miguel Sanchez
Hello. Thank you for your informative reply. Still, it is interesting that
the name is extremely similar to those of the Galicia's in western europe.
Also, as I mentioned, the Celts did spring forth from the Urnfeld and Halstatt
cultures which were located in Bohemia, right next door to Galicia in
Ukraine. With this in mind, and that the Celts did travel into the Balkans
near the Southern Carpathians, establishing settlements in areas of Turkey
where they were known as the Galatians. Also, the Celts were an Indo-European
tribe. The homeland of the IndoEuropeans is argued among archeologists and
anthropologists to be in the area around the Steppes and the Caspian Sea near
the Caucus. The migratory patterns of the IndoEuropeans indicates that they
traveled through southern Russia, Ukraine, and through the Eastern Carpathian
mountains. One last thing, the Scythians are argued as being the progenitors
of the Celtic culture and are supposed to have contributed to many things
actually believed to be Celtic within Europe, or at the very least had
contributed to the Celtic Culture. It is interesting to note that
archeological excavations point that Ukraine has the largest Scythian
settlements found to date.
These factors may indicate that the area of Galicia may have some kind of
Celtic connection. Also, in the Ukrainian language, there is no real "G"
sound. That is why Galicia is pronounced "Halychyna", whereas outsiders or
even Russians call it Galychyna. The emphasis here would be on Gaul or Haul.
What do you think? I can footnote my information if you like...
Take Care,
Miguel
Sawi
south-east Poland - Galicja with Cracow in it(it's next to ukrainian border
but still in Poland!) and when it comes to the celts, in this area there
were some for sure - there are still cities like Legnica(Poland),which name
comes from god -LUG, and holy mountains like Sleza where they are belived to
live long time ago. but it's 200km away from Galicja.
hope you'll find something
Marcin
Miguel Sanchez
Do you mean India/Iran/Iraq? I wasn't aware that the Celts made any serious
inroads into Africa, unless it was in the northern parts.
Miguel
Rebecca Hazlehurst wrote:
> moeu...@idirect.com,Internet writes:
> >Does anyone know whether there is a connection between the Gauls in the
> >area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
> >Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
> >Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
>
ruffnready
Miguel Sanchez wrote:
> Hello. Thank you for your informative reply. Still, it is interesting that
> the name is extremely similar to those of the Galicia's in western europe.
> Also, as I mentioned, the Celts did spring forth from the Urnfeld and Halstatt
> cultures which were located in Bohemia, right next door to Galicia in
> Ukraine.
Bohemia was deserted by Celts already in the times of J. Caesar.
To get a name after a tribe, the land must be well known as that specific
tribe's womb. So it is with Bohemia = "The Home of Boii" - the name
given to this land by Germanic people. However, today we know this
name only from the bookish tradition. None of the European nations
did know this name in real life.
I'll bet you cannot say what was the Celtic for "Bohemia" !
I cannot deny the possibility that some Celts had been in
West Ukraine. But archeology does not state this for sure.
More to this, if we assume that Celts really lived there for some time,
we are faced with unsolvable problems.
(1) Slavonic people did know the Celts only through Germanic mediation
and borrowed a Germanic word <*walx> (whence English <Welsh>)
to name the Celts. Later on the Slavs transferred this name onto
Romance people, hence (old) Russian <volokh> "a Rumanian", or
Polish <Wlochy> "Italy".
(2) There are only two or three words in Slavic languages which could
seriously be discussed as of Celtic descendance, one of them -
Russian <sluga> "a servant, vassal", compared with, say, Scottish
Gaelic <sluagh> "multitude, people".
> With this in mind, and that the Celts did travel into the Balkans
> near the Southern Carpathians, establishing settlements in areas of Turkey
> where they were known as the Galatians. Also, the Celts were an Indo-European
> tribe. The homeland of the IndoEuropeans is argued among archeologists and
> anthropologists to be in the area around the Steppes and the Caspian Sea near
> the Caucus.
Most probably, a PART of LATE IndoEuropeans lived about
3000-4000 years B.C. in what is now Ukraine and North Balkans.
But for those time it is senseless to speak about Celts, Slavs or
whoever else.
> The migratory patterns of the IndoEuropeans indicates that they
> traveled through southern Russia, Ukraine, and through the Eastern Carpathian
> mountains. One last thing, the Scythians are argued as being the progenitors
> of the Celtic culture
How could it be ? Nomadic Scythians are known to be Iranians by their
linguistic affiliation. And it is a matter of fact that once upon a time
Slavic
languages had had an intense interaction with ancient Iranian dialects!
> and are supposed to have contributed to many things
> actually believed to be Celtic within Europe, or at the very least had
> contributed to the Celtic Culture. It is interesting to note that
> archeological excavations point that Ukraine has the largest Scythian
> settlements found to date.
The Scythian (sensu stricto) settlements are not known, only the tombs.
This is because they were Nomadic.
> These factors may indicate that the area of Galicia may have some kind of
> Celtic connection. Also, in the Ukrainian language, there is no real "G"
> sound. That is why Galicia is pronounced "Halychyna", whereas outsiders or
> even Russians call it Galychyna. The emphasis here would be on Gaul or Haul.
Contemporary Ukrainian pronunciation (<g> as spirant) is a rather late
event and has nothing in connection with the Gauls.
I must emphasize that the toponym <Galichina> did not appear earlier
than in 14th century and beyond any doubt is coined after the town
<Galich> which was the center of the principality.
If I am not mistaken, the name <Galicia> may descend from
*Gallik-ija. By the way, I have an impression, that those were the Romans
who used the name <Galli>, other nations used different names.
BW
RR
Rebecca Hazlehurst
>Do you mean India/Iran/Iraq? I wasn't aware that the Celts made any
>serious
>inroads into Africa, unless it was in the northern parts.
Other way round, they came from there. One of the countries is
Ethiopia, where language similarities are amazing.
Yarko Kit
Firstly, Scythians are regarded as an indo-European tribe. Second, in his book"The
Celts",(St.Martin's press, New York, 1975), Gerhard Herm argues on page 105, "On
the Caspian Sea there grew up, pissibly as early as 1800 BC, the third of the three
great barbarian peoples among whom the Greeks also included the Iberians and the
Celts: the Scythians". Herm proceeds to outline the similarities between the Celts
and the Scythians(cut off enemies' head, sets in on house, use heads as drinking
cups, shamans led tribe). On page 106 he states, "the Scythians are among the
progenitors of Celtic culture". Following this he argues, "(Scythians) encountered
the Urnfeld people...They seem to have influenced and impressed the indigenous
peoples...at least the contact did have positive consequences".
On page 107, "(Scythians) threw multi-coloured plaids over their shoulders, grew
moustaches and combed their hair up straight". "There is evidence...that later
Celtic ornamentation was greatly influenced by Scythian modes". On page 125,
"Between 400 and 350 BC clear Scythian motifs can again be found in Celtic art".
Also, to the previous gent who commented and stated that the Scythians could not
have migrated into Europe, I would sugest further research. On page 106 Herm writes,
"Between 800 and 700 BC (Scythians) drove the neighbouring CImmerians along the east
bank of the Black Sea into Asia Minor. Their vanguards reached Silesia, Lower
Lusatia, Hungary and perhaps even Bavaria". On the following page he argues that
they quite possibly even reached France. As for the comment on Iran, it is widely
believed that the Indo-Iranian Aryan tribes are themselves related to the Celtic
tribes. There are many specific similarities between the Aryans, Celts, and the
Scythians. Distance does not make it any more difficult to believe that they are on
and the same. Alsthough that may be stretching it a bit. However, on page 107 Herm
argues that it is possible that "much that seems Celtic in old Europeans was in
reality taken over from the Scythians".
Mentioned in the book also, Mircea Eliade, one of the leading EIropean religious
historians, and Stuart Piggott, a European expert in pre-history that there are
"obvious parrallels between the Celts and the Scythians".
Also, in Rene Grousset's "The Empire of the Steppes-A History of Central
Asia"(Rutgers University Press, New Jersey, 1970), Grousset argues on page 5, "From
1150 to 950 the Cimmerian civilization continued to develop north of the Black
Sea". On page 6, (Cimmerian culture) shows affinity with both the Caucus and the
Hallstatt culture of Austria".."Iron knives from Halstatt have been found in the
upper layers of Cimmerian culture, as in the early Scythian peiod". On page 10 he
argues that the Scythians were already in Ukraine in by 700 BC, and that the
Hallstatt culture of the Cimmerian bronze period lived on in the Ukraine as a
peasant culture even while Scythism and Hellenism were becoming established".
Therefore the Scythians culture and the Hallstatt culture indeed had contact.
Indeed, Herm himself on page 104 argues that the Hallstatt culture and the Urnfield
culture were "the very first Celts"...and on page 105, "That Celts were involved in
the Hallstatt culture is beyond question. That the Urnfield people are their
ancestors is likewise uncontested".
As for Scythians being Iranian, Grousset argues on page 6 that they came "from
Turkestan and western Siberia". On page 7 the author argues that "Modern linguists
believe that the Scythians should be classified as an Iranian people-an
Indo-European family, of the Indo-Iranian or Aryan group". If one studies the
Brahmin culture and that of the Western European Celtic culture one will find some
very interesting cultural connections.
Anyhow, I hope you find this informative.
Take Care,
Miguel
P.S. I wrote this down very quickly. I hope that I have not made any obvious
temporal or spelling errors.
Lyndon Watson wrote:
> ruffnready <em...@umail.umd.edu> writes:
> > Miguel Sanchez wrote:
> >> Also, the Celts were an Indo-European
> >> tribe. The homeland of the IndoEuropeans is argued among archeologists and
> >> anthropologists to be in the area around the Steppes and the Caspian Sea near
> >> the Caucus.
> >
> > Most probably, a PART of LATE IndoEuropeans lived about
> > 3000-4000 years B.C. in what is now Ukraine and North Balkans.
> > But for those time it is senseless to speak about Celts, Slavs or
> > whoever else.
>
> Yes, indeed. And the steppe-origin theory is highly disputed these days
> and cannot be taken as the standard model any more. Quite possibly, a
> generally eastward movement from east-European farming regions was
> responsible for the arrival of Indo-Europeans on the steppe.
>
> >> The migratory patterns of the IndoEuropeans indicates that they
> >> traveled through southern Russia, Ukraine, and through the Eastern Carpathian
> >> mountains. One last thing, the Scythians are argued as being the progenitors
> >> of the Celtic culture
> >
> > How could it be ? Nomadic Scythians are known to be Iranians by
> > their linguistic affiliation. And it is a matter of fact that
> > once upon a time Slavic languages had had an intense interaction
> > with ancient Iranian dialects!
>
> And the timing is wrong, too. The sequence from urnfields to La Tene
> begins much earlier than any evidence for the Scythians.
>
> LW
Yarko Kit
> seems to have some interesting theories. Can't say I believe him/her or can support
> his claims. But he/she argues that the Scythians went into Germany and that the
> indo-European Cimmerians which settled in Ukraine, were driven into Europe to become
> Celts. The last part I have never heard of before. Very controversial. The
> Cimmerians were driven out by the coming of the Scythians, but that the Cimmerians
> went on to become the Celts is very, very speculative. Anyhow, here's the link:
Yarko Kit
> Yet another interesting website on the Cimmerians being ancestors of the Celts
Lyndon Watson
Iravedra
XVI century, but I may be mistaken. I have heard that there's another
Galicia in Russia. Some old researchers contendedthat the Iberians had
their origins there.
Regards
M
Miguel Sanchez wrote:
> Does anyone know whether there is a connection between the Gauls in the
> area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
> Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
> Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----
G. Albinowski
> XVI century, but I may be mistaken. I have heard that there's another
> Galicia in Russia.
The official name of the region was Galicia and Lodomeria. It was created by
Austria in 1st and 3rd partition od Poland in 1772/1795. The name was chosen
to support the claims of the Austrian Emperor (and Hungarian King in the
same person)
as the Hungarian kings held the title "Rex Galiciae et Lodomeriae" (=king of
Halich and Vladimir).
The independent Duchy of Halich existed here in 11th-12th century, later
joined with Duchy of
Vladimir to form The Duchy and of Halich and Vladimir in 13th-14th century.
The capital was
city of Halich, later city of Lvov. For a short period of time in 13th
century it was a kingdom.
When the last member of the ruling dynasty died the territory was claimed by
Poland, Lithuania
and Hingary. In 1352 it was divided between Poland and Lithuania. Hungarians
retained
the title.
Western Galicia nowadays belong to Poland, Eastern Galicia to Ukraine
See map: http://www.man.poznan.pl/~bielecki/export/gal.htm
So the name Halich/Galich/Galicia is very old, but it origin is not
certain.The Celts inhabited this
region some centuries earlier so they left some placenames.
Pozdrowienia,
Grzegorz Albinowski
--------------------------------------------------
"The Guide is definitive, reality is often inaccurate"
The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
--------------------------------------------------
encyclopaedic info in Polich:
Galicja:
http://encyklopedia.fogra.com.pl/wiem/doc/54d35a7e183a210505256343006c8645
Duchy of Halich
http://encyklopedia.fogra.com.pl/wiem/doc/abd8b18079d41d380525638b00745876
Duchy of Halich-Vladimir
http://encyklopedia.fogra.com.pl/wiem/doc/52caf567055665d1052563d9004ba58b
JKavana705
I'm interested in the connection between the Scythians and the Celts someone
mentioned earlier. I have read the book quoted, but I'm interested in
collabrating opinions. Can anyone here provide more information?
John Kavanaugh
Miguel Sanchez
although I am only now conducting my research into the relations between the
Scythians and the Celts, here is a website that briefly discusses the matter of
indoEuropeans, celts and Scythians. There's not much there. However, it might
give you more leads by which to go by.
Lyndon Watson
> Firstly, Scythians are regarded as an indo-European tribe.
Yes, I don't think anyone seriously challenges that. They are usually
classed in the Indo-Iranian sub-family, appearing as they do in the last
few centuries BC from a the same steppe background as other groups which
are so classified.
> Second, in his book"The
> Celts",(St.Martin's press, New York, 1975), Gerhard Herm argues on page 105, "On
> the Caspian Sea there grew up, pissibly as early as 1800 BC, the third of the three
> great barbarian peoples among whom the Greeks also included the Iberians and the
> Celts: the Scythians".
Firstly, a note on sources. A 25-year old popular-science book is *not*
a good authority for scientific propositions. Such books are almost
inevitably out of date relative to current arguments in the field even
when they are published, and this one is old itself as well. Herm is
citing theories from the 1950s.
And, more specifically to this case, Herm is actually slipping a fast
one past you when he says "possibly as early as 1800 BC". The Scythians
appear a thousand years later. The people who lived on the steppe (or
at least the eastern steppe, east of the Caspian) about 1800 BC might
have been ancestors of the Scythians, probably were, but they had not
developed the characteristic artifacts and arts of the Scythians.
> Herm proceeds to outline the similarities between the Celts
> and the Scythians(cut off enemies' head, sets in on house, use heads as drinking
> cups, shamans led tribe). On page 106 he states, "the Scythians are among the
> progenitors of Celtic culture".
This sort of stuff, like palaeo-linguistics, is scientifically
worthless. Such similarities are common all over the world and prove
nothing at all about historical connections.
> Following this he argues, "(Scythians) encountered
> the Urnfeld people...They seem to have influenced and impressed the indigenous
> peoples...at least the contact did have positive consequences".
> On page 107, "(Scythians) threw multi-coloured plaids over their shoulders, grew
> moustaches and combed their hair up straight". "There is evidence...that later
> Celtic ornamentation was greatly influenced by Scythian modes". On page 125,
> "Between 400 and 350 BC clear Scythian motifs can again be found in
> Celtic art".
Once again, much of this is wishful thinking without support from
dated, physical evidence. The Urnfield phase long preceded the
appearance of the Scythians. Evidence of Scythian artifacts has been
found among *late* Celtic remains - in all likelihood traded goods,
perhaps even traces of some actual Scythian travellers among the Celts or
Celtic travellers among the Scythians. We know that there was a great
deal of trade in ornaments and artifacts all over Celtic Europe, and
Celtic artists and craftsmen must have been influenced to some extent by
such exotic wares. Quite likely the Scythian work did influence at
least some Celtic work during the La Tene phase.
> Also, to the previous gent who commented and stated that the Scythians could not
> have migrated into Europe, I would sugest further research.
Well, I don't know who that was, but would comment that, while there's
no evidence for amy mass migration and settlement, typically the
steppe-dwellers did make raids and other incursions into the settled
societies of what is now central Europe. The Scythians could have been
among the first to indulge in that practice, later followed by Huns,
Avars, Magyars. ...
> On page 106 Herm writes,
> "Between 800 and 700 BC (Scythians) drove the neighbouring CImmerians along the east
> bank of the Black Sea into Asia Minor. Their vanguards reached Silesia, Lower
> Lusatia, Hungary and perhaps even Bavaria". On the following page he argues that
> they quite possibly even reached France.
Yes, though it should be noted that Bavaria and France are pure
speculation unsupported by evidence, and "vanguards" is a weasel word
implying without actually saying that more followed later. In fact,
there is no evidence that *any* Scythians travelled so far west - all
the traces so far found in settled central Europe could be explained by
trading in artifacts. There is certainly no trace of Scythian
*settlement*.
> As for the comment on Iran, it is widely
> believed that the Indo-Iranian Aryan tribes are themselves related to the Celtic
> tribes. There are many specific similarities between the Aryans, Celts, and the
> Scythians. Distance does not make it any more difficult to believe that they are on
> and the same. Alsthough that may be stretching it a bit.
They are related in the sense that they are all Indo-European, which is,
strictly speaking, purely a linguistic classification and does not
entail common ancestry (though I personally think that the common
ancestry does exist). But similarities in material goods are better
explained by similarities in way of life - like needs and circumstances
tend to produce like answers and solutions.
> However, on page 107 Herm
> argues that it is possible that "much that seems Celtic in old Europeans was in
> reality taken over from the Scythians".
Given the relative time scales, the much earlier appearance of the Celts
(I don't think anyone is disputing the Celtic nature of the Hallstat
culture), it is arguable that the influences were more likely to be the
other way around. Generally speaking, nomadic people trade for goods
from their settled neighbours, not the other way around except for
curios and trinkets.
> Mentioned in the book also, Mircea Eliade, one of the leading EIropean religious
> historians, and Stuart Piggott, a European expert in pre-history that there are
> "obvious parrallels between the Celts and the Scythians".
Aaargh! Stuart Piggott is anything but an authority in modern European
prehistory. You really need to read the professional journals to keep
up with the results of the archaeology that is going on these days.
> Also, in Rene Grousset's "The Empire of the Steppes-A History of Central
> Asia"(Rutgers University Press, New Jersey, 1970), Grousset argues on page 5, "From
> 1150 to 950 the Cimmerian civilization continued to develop north of the Black
> Sea". On page 6, (Cimmerian culture) shows affinity with both the Caucus and the
> Hallstatt culture of Austria".."Iron knives from Halstatt have been found in the
> upper layers of Cimmerian culture, as in the early Scythian peiod". On page 10 he
> argues that the Scythians were already in Ukraine in by 700 BC, and that the
> Hallstatt culture of the Cimmerian bronze period lived on in the Ukraine as a
> peasant culture even while Scythism and Hellenism were becoming established".
> Therefore the Scythians culture and the Hallstatt culture indeed had contact.
> Indeed, Herm himself on page 104 argues that the Hallstatt culture and the Urnfield
> culture were "the very first Celts"...and on page 105, "That Celts were involved in
> the Hallstatt culture is beyond question. That the Urnfield people are their
> ancestors is likewise uncontested".
It seems to me that all that argues for Celtic influence on the
Scythians rather than the other way around.
> As for Scythians being Iranian, Grousset argues on page 6 that they came "from
> Turkestan and western Siberia". On page 7 the author argues that "Modern linguists
> believe that the Scythians should be classified as an Iranian people-an
> Indo-European family, of the Indo-Iranian or Aryan group". If one studies the
> Brahmin culture and that of the Western European Celtic culture one will find some
> very interesting cultural connections.
I agree. The Scythians are one in a succession of steppe cultures that
that can be traced back to the same early steppe people who gave rise to
the Indo-Iranian invaders of the lands to their south.
LW
imo...@seznam.cz
> area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
> Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
> Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
imo...@seznam.cz
> Does anyone know whether there is a connection between the Gauls in the
> area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
> Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
> Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.
You know very little about Bohemia (I am from). We have quite strong Celtic-German-Slavic continuity. In archeology, local names, and even originally celtic stories of gods. As You write "in the time of Caesar the Bohemia was deserted by Celts" You are simply using one Roman source which is in contrary with many more other Roman sources. Simply it is not true. The first german king who defeated previous celtic king was Marobud. He has celtic name and it is written that he was creating "multi-tribe kingdom". His name "Great Victor" is connected much more to the victorious defending war with Rome 6 BC. In the 2nd century another Marcomanic (German) king Balomar was again king of "muti-tribe" and has celtic name again.
Our old czech stories are celtic. King Crocco, the coin with name Crocco was found in celtic oppidum. There is even description of samhain rites at the greatest oppidum close to Prague and the story is connected with sun positions in landscape... There are more old mythological stories from celtic time we have. Much more You should think of changing of society during time. Nowadays czech historians are calling people of erly medieval Czech state as "Bohemians" which means the people were some sort of language and cultural mixture.
Friedrich Engels
> area now known as Ukraine and the Western Province known as Galicia? I
> Galicia is right to the east, of the so called origin of the Celts, the
> Urnfeld or Halstatt culture in Bohemia.