RASKOLOT VO VMRO-DPMNE del 1
Makedon
> RABOTEN MATERIJAL
> (zabraneto objavuvawe bez dozvola na avtorot)
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> RASKOLOT VO VMRO-DPMNE
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> Juli - Avgust 1998 godina
> S k o p j e
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> Kon krajot na avgust 1997 god., poto~no po sednicata na CK na VMRO
> DPMNE{to se odr`a na 30.08.1997 g. vo Sobranieto na Grad Skopje, vo
> makedonskata javnost kako bomba odekna vesta za `estok sudir vo
> najvisokoto rakovodstvo na najmo}nata opoziciona partija. Za mnogumina
> sudirot izbi neo~ekuvano i nenajaveno (iako vo minatoto takvi
> konfrontacii vo kontinuitetot ja sledea partijata od samoto osnovawe)
> bidej}i tokmu vo prethodnite godina-dve VMRO-DPMNE va`e{e za edna od
> najstabilnite politi~ki partii vo vreme koga vo re~isi site ostanati
> partii eskaliraa otvoreni sudiri vo nivnite redovi ( SDSM,
> Socijalisti~kata partija, LDP i t.n.).
>
> Hronologijata na nastanite neposredno pred, vo tekot i po odlukata na
> "istoriskata" sednica na VMRO-DPMNE e gore-dolu poznata: 54 ~lenovi
> na Centralniot komitet soglasno ~len 52 od Statutot na VMRO-DPMNE
> pokrenuvaat barawe za otpovikuvawe na potpretsedatelkata Dosta
> Dimovska (poradi otvoreno prote`irawe na probugarska politika,
> neu`ivawe ugled, odnosno nejzin izbor po pat na falsifikat i nejzino
> aktivno u~estvo vo re~isi site aferi {to ja potresuvaa Partijata), a
> grupa ~lenovi na Unijata na mladi sili na VMRO-DPMNE podnesuvaat
> Predlog-Rezolucija so koja partijata se ograduva od site vrhovizmi .
>
> Po nekolku~asovna burna i ma~na rasprava, vo atmosfera na borba
> "sekoj protiv sekogo" , so redica vrhovisti~ki, {ovinisti~ki, pa i
> fa{isti~ki ispadi i so otvoreno sprotivstavuvawe na liderot Qub~o
> Georgievski kon dvete inicijativi, epilogot be{e logi~en i o~ekuvan.
> Baraweto za otpovikuvawe i Predlog-Rezolucijata voop{to ne se staveni
> na dneven red, a Izvr{niot komitet vo poln sostav (osven
> pretsedatelot) re`irano podnesuva kolektivna ostavka. Edna nedela
> podocna, Georgievski, ve}e vo uloga na svoeviden nov "firer",
> vonstatutarno i nasilni~ki go ru{i rakovodstvoto na UMS, a slednata
> nedela nabrzina sklepaniot i bitno izmenet sostav na CK izbira nov
> Izvr{en komitet vo koj vlegoa nekoi bezvu~ni imiwa so zvu~ni doktorski
> tituli, kako svoeviden paravan za vistinskata su{tina na promenite koi
> se slu~ija vo VMRO-DPMNE. Za karakterot na vrhovisti~kiot pir {to se
> slu~i na samata sednica gi notirame izjavite na nekolku ~lenovi na IK:
> Doreana Hristova ~len na IK- "Golem broj stranski novinari projavuvaat
> ogromen interes za polo`bata na makedonskite Bugari vo Makedonija -
> Treba da dojde do pomiruvawe megu na{iot (bugarskiot - zab. a) i
> va{iot (makedonskiot -zab.a) narod; Marjan \or~ev, ~len na IK: "Gens
> unus sumus" ili "Eden narod sme" (omilena izjava na bugarskite
> {ovinisti - "Ta nie sme eden narod!"), \or|i Naumov, ~len na IK: "Da
> ne be{e Todor Aleksandrov jas }e se prezivav Rodomirovi}!", Qub~o
> Georgievski:" [to lo{o ste videle od Bugarija" i t.n.
>
> Slu~ajot saka{e da skandalot {to se slu~i na CK vedna{ otide vo
> javnosta, a sredstvata za javno informirawe bidat preplaveni so
> detalni pikanterii za se ona {to se slu~uva{e pred, za vreme i po
> famoznata sednica na CK. Naogaj}i se vo "nebrano" dvoecot
> Georgievski-Dimovska nabrzina isfrla nekolku tezi za javnosta so koi
> prozirno se nastojuva{e da se sokrie zadninata na sudirot, deka se
> raboti za personalen sudir vo rakovodstvoto, za sudir na
> "intelektualno" i "ruralno" krilo, za otstranuvawe na
> "biznis-policisko" krilo i sl. Stupidnosta, providnosta i
> neargumentiranosta na ovie tezi bea pro~itani i od javnosta i od
> mediumite, a nekolkute dokumenti koi procirkuliraa vo javnosta bea
> dovolen dokaz da se svati deka se raboti za daleku posuptilen problem
> koj po svoeto zna~ewe gi nadminuva partiskite ramki i navleguva
> dlaboko vo sverata na nacionalnite i dr`avnite interesi na
> makedonskiot narod i negovata dr`ava Republika Makedonija.
>
> Imeno, soznanijata, podatocite i argumentite so koi raspolagame, iako
> mo`ebi necelosni, sepak se dovolni da se izvle~e logi~en zaklu~ok deka
> se raboti za sudir na dve opozitni opcii - ednata avtenti~na -
> makedonska kako direkten sledbenik na istoriskata misija na VMRO i
> vtorata, tuginska, bugarsko-vrhovisti~ka koja i niz istorijata
> postojano go sledela VMRO vo negovata borba za sozdavawe makedonska
> dr`ava i koja kako po pravilo, pretstavuvala pre~ka za ostvaruvawe na
> vekovniot ideal. (za sozdavawe nezavisna ili obedineta Makedonija). Vo
> sudirot na tie dve opcii, kako {to e poznato, pobedi onaa
> vrhovisti~kata, i toa blagodarenie pred se na nekoi iracionalni motivi
> vo koi bezdrugo spa|aat harizmata na liderot Q.Georgievski i negovata
> fanati~na i `estoka odbrana na svojot mentor u{te od studentskite
> denovi - Dosta Dimovska, kako i latentno prisutniot strav na
> ~lenstvoto od eventualniot raspad ili raskol na Partijata, imanenten
> za sekoja partija {to se nao|a vo dlaboka opozicija i postojano e
> izlo`ena na represalii od strana na vladea~kata nomenkulatura. Tuka
> le`i i odgovorot zo{to pogolemiot del od potpisnici na baraweto za
> otpovikuvawe na potpretsedatelkata D.Dimovska koi pri potpi{uvaweto
> otvoreno zboruvaa za nejzino bugarsko pedigre, na sednicata na CK pri
> izborot na noviot vrhovisti~ki Izvr{en komitet, ja navednaa glavata,
> se povlekoa i premol~no go odobrija ~inot na samopogrebuvawe i na
> svoeto nacionalno dostoinstvo i na sopstvenata Partija.
>
> Prakti~no, so izborot na noviot sostav na Izvr{niot komitet na
> VMRO-DPMNE zavr{i edna faza vo realizacijata na, sega ve}e slobodno
> mo`e da se ka`e, eden antimakedonski zagovor, dobro osmislen,
> koordiniran i sproveduvan od nekolku megu sebe dobro povrzani i
> sinhronizirani centri - Sofija (VMRO-SMD, Slavjanskiot komitet,
> aktuelnata Vlada na Bugarija na ~elo so pretsedatelot Stojanov),
> Skopje - (VMRO-DPMNE - del od rakovodstvoto na Partijata, Bugarskata
> Ambasada, VMRO-tatkovinska), Toronto - (frakcijata na MPO so koja
> rakovodi Georgi Mladenov). Odredeni soznanija nedvosmisleno upatuvaat
> na toa deka vo celata ovaa ujdurma svoe zna~ajno mesto ima i
> konstantnata ruska politika na Balkanot, osobeno sprema Makedonija.
> Potvrdata za vakvata teza - za golemata uloga i interes na Rusija za
> politi~kite sostojbi i za nastanite vo Republika Makedonija.
>
> Kako {to ke re~e dr. Stojan Georgiev eden od pobornicite za ~ovekovi
> prava na makedoncite vo Bugarija <Vrhovizmot e otroven dvojnik na
> VMRO. Korenite na Vrhovizmot kako pojava se vo su{tinata na ruskiot
> velikodr`aven imperjalizam i negova uloga na Balkanot, kako i
> podmolnoto odnesuvawe na dr`avite na ovoj za nego mnogu va`en region>
> (Nova Makedonija 8.12.97 str.7).
> Vo po~etokot na oktomvri o.g. vo makedonskata istoriska, politi~ka i
> kulturna javnost so ogor~uvawe e primena vesta deka vo neodamna
> izdadenata "Istorija na literaturite na Zapadnite i Ju`nite Sloveni"
> {to ja izdade Ruskata akademija na naukite se aktivira doktrinata koja
> vo osnova zna~i negacija na makedonstvoto kako istoriski i slovenski
> supstrat. Vo svojata brilijantna analiza na ovoj kulturen (no i
> politi~ki) nastan "Makedonska ikona i ruska sekira" ("Nova Makedonija"
> 4/5.10.1997 godina). Ante Popovski go konstatira i slednoto: "Stanuva
> pove}e od logi~na i jasna pretpostavkata deka zazemaweto na eden vakov
> rigorozen kurs po najvitalnoto pra{awe od koe zavisat sevkupnite
> odnosi megu Bugarija i Makedonija ne mo`elo a da ne se potpira na
> ne~ija otvorena podr{ka, na nekoja, isto taka doktrina, koja ve}e go
> razre{ila ona koe e su{tina na sintagmata: "Da ostavime naukata da gi
> re{ava spornite pra{awa od na{ata istorija" (poznata - izjava na Qub~o
> Georgievski zab. na avtorot). Takvata na{a pretpostavka, za `al, e
> stvarnost!"
>
> Osnovnata, strategiska cel na ovoj antimakedonski zagovor e sozdavawe
> na politi~ko-pravni, objektivni i subjektivni pretpostavki za
> priklu~uvawe na Makedonija kon Bugarija, odnosno prakti~no ostvaruvawe
> na Sanstefanskata utopisti~ka ideja za sozdavawe na Golema Bugarija
> "od Crno more do Ohrid i od Dunav do Beloto more". Kolku i da izgleda
> ovaa fiks-ideja za makedonskite gragani nelogi~na, fantazmagori~na i
> naludni~ava, se ~ini, spored odnesuvaweto na isto~niot sosed, se u{te
> `ivee i e aktuelna ne samo vo ramkite na globalnite strategiski
> interesi na Bugarija, tuku za `al, i vo maglivite proekcii i percepcii
> na aktuelnoto rakovodstvo na VMRO-DPMNE. Za nejzinata prakti~na i
> konkretna realizacija, na zagovorot, negovite stratezi aktivnosta ja
> naso~ija vo dva klu~ni pravci:
>
> 1.sozdavawe na "blagonade`en" politi~ki subjekt so respektabilen i
> lojalen na "kauzata" kadrovski potencijal vo Republika Makedonija kako
> ideen i prakti~en promotor na golemata ideja na Zagovorot, i
>
> 2.silna i perfidna politi~ko -propagandna aktivnost na tloto na
> Makedonija, odnosno sozdavawe na "politi~ka klima" za realizacija na
> "glavnata ideja".
>
> Edna letimi~na analiza na politi~koto dejstvuvawe na VMRO-DPMNE, a
> osobeno na politikata na liderot Georgievski i negovata neizbe`na
> pridru`ni~ka - potpretsedatelkata Dimovska, kako i potsetuvaweto na
> nekoi poznati (no i za javnosta nedovolno poznati) nastani koi vo
> izminatiot period od nekolku godini se slu~uvaa vo VMRO-DPMNE, vo
> celost gi potvrduvaat iznesenite tezi i ja demaskiraat
> velepredavni~kata politi~ka uloga na del od rakovodsstvoto na
> VMRO-DPMNE, predvodeno od Georgievski-Dimovska vo raznebituvaweto na
> makedonskiot narod i predavstvoto na negovite fundamentalni nacionalni
> i dr`avni interesi. No, da po~neme po red!
>
> Za potpolno razbirawe na vistinskite dimenzii na zagovorot protiv
> makedonskiot narod, no i protiv VMRO-DPMNE, ~ija programa i zalo`bi
> definitivno se napu{teni, na po~etokot citirame nekolku to~ki od
> Proglasot za formirawe na VMRO-DPMNE objaven na 17.06.1990 godina koi
> direktno ili indirektno se odnesuvaat na predmetot {to e na{ interes:
>
> To~ka 2: "VMRO-DPMNE kako Partija {to izvira od narodot i mu pripaga
> na narodot e protiv sekakov vid makedonski vrhovizam i protiv nego se
> bori vo duhot na ilindenskiot ideal na makedonskiot narod, no so
> demokratski formi na politi~ka borba,
>
> To~ka 5: "VMRO-DPMNE e za izmiruvawe na site Makedonci koi ostanuvaat
> vo duhot na besmrtniot ilindenski ideal. VMRO-DPMNE prifa}a sorabotka
> samo so makedonskite partii i dvi`ewa na koi im e tu| sekakov
> predavni~ki vrhovizam";
>
> To~ka 9: "VMRO-DPMNE se zalaga Makedoncite od Pirinskiot, Egejskiot i
> makedonskiot del od Albanija da bidat tretirani kako Makedonci, a ne
> kako stranski dr`avjani";
>
> To~ka 9: "VMRO-DPMNE e za strogo po~ituvawe na makedonskiot jazik vo
> soglasnost so Ustavot na Makedonija i negovata upotreba vo site
> vidovi komunikacii na teritorijata na Vardarska, Pirinska, Egejska i
> makedonskiot del od od Albanija i na drugite etni~ki grupi da im se
> dozvoli izu~uvawe na svojot maj~in jazik vo soglasnost so
> me|unarodnite dogovori i obvrski";
>
> To~ka 12: "VMRO-DPMNE se zalaga za otvorawe na makedonski u~ili{ta
> vo site republiki vo SFRJ kade {to `ivee makedonsko naselenie, kako i
> vo Egejskiot, Pirinskiot i makedonskiot del pod Albanija. Dokolku se
> sprotivstavat Belgrad, Sofija, Atina i Tirana, da im se vozvrati so
> reciprocitet i otfrlawe na nivnite jazici";
>
> To~ka 14: "VMRO-DPMNE }e se zalaga makedonskite nezavisni
> organizacii: Ilinden, VMRO-nezavisna od Sofija i OMO Ilinden od
> Pirinska Makedonija da gi registrira vo Evropskiot Parlament za
> ~ove~ki prava vo Strazbur i me|unarodniot forum vo @eneva";
>
> I na krajot od Proglasot: ". . . VMRO-DPMNE smeta deka Makedonija ne
> e zagrozena od svoite narodnosti tuku od svoite imperijalisti~ki
> sosedi. . . Zatoa, priklu~ete se na VMRO-DPMNE koja odi po sopstven
> makedonski pat i nema da ve odvede vo vol~jite usti na balkanskite
> imperijalisti. . . Makedonski narode! Svesti se! Razbudi se! Narodnata
> pesna ne za xabe pee deka drugite znaat za tebe, no ti samiot ne znae{
> {to si, {to bara{ ?!. . . Patot e samo eden . . . Po toj pat te vodi
> VMRO-DPMNE. Site drugi pati{ta te vodat vo novi vrhovizmi, te vodat
> kon novi izmami, novi nacionalni katastrofi. Zatoa, priklu~i se na
> VMRO-DPMNE! Nema da bide{ izmamen! "
>
> Taka vetuva{e VMRO-DPMNE. Taka pi{uva{e vo Proglasot za formirawe na
> Partijata ~ie ime gi voskresna dlaboko vkorenetite ilindenski ~uvstva
> kaj sekoj Makedonec i istoriskite nade`i na makedonskiot narod za
> svoja, samostojna i nezavisna makedonska dr`ava. Ako se napravi i
> najobi~na komparacija pome|u sodr`inata na Rezolucijata {to be{e
> predlo`ena i izglasana da se stavi na dneven red na sednicata na CK i
> citiranite delovi od proglasot za formirawe na VMRO DPMNE }e se vidi
> deka i dvata dokumenti su{tinski se identi~ni odnosno Rezolucijata ne
> zna~i ni{to novo tuku reafirmacija na temelnite opredelbi na Partijata
> sodr`ani vo aktot za nejzino osnovawe. Rezolucijata be{e predlo`ena od
> slednite ~lenovi na IK na Unijata na Mladi Sili na VMRO DPMNE i so
> sledniot tekst:
>
> 1.Dimitar Dimovski - potpretsedatel na UMS
> 2. Atanas Stamnov - potpretsedatelnA ums
> 3. Igor Tro{anski - ~len na IK na UMS
> 4. Goran Arsov - ~len na IK na UMS
> 5.Vlatko Panov - ~len na IK na UMS
> 6.Marjan Cvetkovski - ~len na IK na UMS
>
> TRGNUVAJKI od vekovnite streme`i na Makedonskiot narod za svoja
> samostojna i nezavisna dr`ava,
>
> SVESNI za istoriskata i misionerska uloga na VMRO DPMNE vo trasiraweto
> na patot za idnoto semakedonsko obedinuvawe,
>
> DLABOKO zagri`eni poradi agresivnite antimakedonski propagandi na
> velikosrpskiot, golemobugarskiot i megalogr~kiot vrhovizam sprema
> Makedonija,
>
> SOO^ENI so imperativnata neophodnost od bezuslovno makedonsko
> nacionalno edinstvo,
> Vo duhot na Odlukite i Rezoluciite na Desettiot kongres na VMRO-DPNME
> vo Ki~evo, a soglasno Statutot na VMRO-DPMNE,
>
> Centralniot komitet na VMRO-DPMNE na svojata redovna sednica odr`ana
> na den 30.08.1997 godina ja donese slednata:
>
>
>
> REZOLUCIJA
>
> 1. Centralniot komitet na VMRO-DPMNE kako najvisok organ na Partijata
> me|u dva kongresa izrazuva dlaboka zagri`enost poradi agresivnata
> antimakedonska propaganda na sosednite dr`avi Srbija, Bugarija i
> Grcija koja im za cel raznebituvawe i negirawe na makedonskiot narod i
> osnovnite postulati na negovata posebnost i samobitnost, a so krajna
> cel ru{ewe na makedonskata dr`ava. Negiraweto na Makedonskata
> pravoslavna crkva i granicata od strana na Srbija, na makedonskiot
> narod i jazik od strana na Bugarija, na imeto od strana na Grcija, vo
> su{tina se del od edna te ista antimakedonska strategija ~ii koreni se
> vle~at u{te od Bukure{tanskiot dogovor vo 1913 godina i yverskoto
> raspar~uvawe na makedonskata etni~ka teritorija i odnaroduvawe na
> Makedoncite.
>
> 2. CK na VMRO-DPMNE izrazuva posebna zagri`enost {to vlijanieto na
> vakvite propagandi se po~uvstvuva i vo samata partija, ~ie prote`irawe
> od strana na poedini ~lenovi predizvikuva otvoreno nezadovolstvo i
> revolt kaj po{irokoto ~lenstvo i simpatizerite na VMRO-DPMNE, koe mo`e
> da predizvika nesogledivi posledici za rejtingot na partijata i
> edinstvoto vo nea kako osnoven preduslov za uspe{en rezultat na
> pretstojnite parlamentarni izbori. Aktueliziraweto na temite za
> etni~ko poteklo na Makedoncite (anti~ko ili slavjansko), za prirodata
> na makedonskiot jazik, za makedonskata pravoslavna crkva, isklu~ivo im
> slu`at na tu|ite vrhovisti~ki i antimakedonski scenarija na sosedite.
>
> 3. Soo~eni so ova, CK u{te edna{ gi reafirmira osnovnite opredelbi za
> dejstvuvcawe na VMRO-DPMNE, sodr`ani vo PROGLASOT ZA FORMIRAWE NA
> VMRO-DPMNE, do 17.06.1990 godina, vo koi pokraj drugoto, decidno e
> potencirano deka VMRO-DPMNE e protiv sekakov vid vrhovizam, deka }e
> raboti za nacionalno i teritorijalno obedinuvawe na raspar~eniot
> makedonski narod, e za strogopo~ituvawe na makedonskiot jazik i
> negovata upotreba vo Vardarska, Pirinska, Egejska Makedonija i
> makedonskiot del vo Albanija, deka prifa}a sorabotka so onie partii i
> dvi`ewa na koi im e tu| sekakov predavni~ki vrhovzam, i.t.n. Nivnoto
> povtorno aktuelizirawe i navra}awe kon izvornite postulati so koi
> fakti~ki e sozdadena Partijata, e pove}e od potrebno koga e dovedeno
> vo pra{awe opstojuvaweto na makedonskiot narod i dr`ava, ~ij neotu|iv
> del e VMRO-DPNME.
>
> 4. CK na VMRO-DPMNE izrazuva najostar protest protiv politikata na
> Srbija, Bugarija, Grcija i Albanija, sprema Makedoncite koi kako
> nacionalno malcinstvo `iveat vo niv, i energi~no bara dosledno
> po~ituvawe na nivnite nacionalni prava. Vo ovaa prilika CK izrazuva
> celosna podr{ka na legitimnite i opravdani barawa na Makedoncite od
> Organizacijata -OMO Ilinden- vo Pirinska Makedonija, Organizacijata -
> Vino`ito- vo Egejska Makedonija i dru{tvoto -Prespa- vo Albanija, za
> priznavawe na nivnite nacionalni i ~ove~ki prava, zagarantirani so
> Povelbata na OON, i drugi me|unarodni Organizacii.
>
> 5. CK na VMRO-DPMNE, najenergi~no se sprotivstavuva i ja osuduva
> vrhovisti~kata agresivna i antimakedonska politika {to ja promoviraat
> organizaciite; VMRO-SMD vo Sofija i MPO vo dijasporata. Nivnoto
> negirawe na samostojnosta na makedonskiot narod, negoviot jazik,
> kultura i istorija, najdirektno im odi vo prilog na site du{mani na
> Makedoncite i, svesno ili ne, povtorno ja turka Makedonija vo
> pregratkite na Srbija. Eventualnite kontakti ili sorabotka so ovie
> asocijacii e sprotivna so programskite opredelbi i interesite na
> VMRO-DPMNE, kako i so interesite na celiot makedonski narod.
>
> 6. CK na VMRO-DPMNE, soglasno so svoite statutarni ovlastuvawa i
> ingerencii, kako najvisok organ na Partijata me|u dvata Kongresi,
> kategori~ki bara od Pretsedatelot, Izvr{niot Komitet na VMRO-DPMNE,
> Komitetite na Izbornite Edinici i site drugi organi i tela i ~lenovi
> na Partijata dosledno da se pridr`uvaat kon temelnite programski
> opredelbi na Partijata, i energi~no se sprotistavat na bilo kakov
> prodor ili manifestacija na tu|i vrhovisti~ki vlijanija vo Partija.
>
> 7. CK na VMRO-DPMNE u{te edna{ ja potencira potrebata od nacionalno
> pomiruvawe i edinstvo na site Makedonci vrz jasna nacionalna osnova
> koja izvira od slavnata i dredna istorija na vekovnata borba na
> makedonskiot narod, kako preduslov za idnoto semakedosnko voskresenie.
>
>
> CK na VMRO DPMNE
> Skopje 30 Avgust 1997
> godina
> Qub~o \eor|ievski
>
>
> Zatoa, denes koga go slu{ame i go ~itame Qub~o Georgievski kako od
> edna strana otvoreno `ali za sudbinata na Rufi Osmani, a od druga
> strana javno im zabiva no` vo grb na obespravenite bra}a Makedonci od
> Pirinska Makedonija, proglasuvaj}i ja nivnata organizacija za
> separatisti~ka i ekstremisti~ka so {to javno i nedvosmisleno se
> deklarira kako "advokat" na velikobugarskata politika, ne mo`eme a da
> ne se zapra{ame: na koja partija e pretsedatel gospodinot Georgievski
> -na VMRO-DPMNE ili na VMRO-SMD ??? I koja e cenata na vlogot {to
> liderot Georgievski otvoreno ja napu{ta Programata i Statutot na
> VMRO-DPMNE i trgna po magliviot pat na otvoreno nacionalno predavstvo?
> Ako za napu{tawe na programata e sovr{eno jasno, za odgovorot za
> cenata }e mora da popri~ekame. Se nadevame, ne za dolgo.
>
> Spored pedantnite analiti~ari, prvi~nite javni i pootvoreni
> manifestirawa na probugarskite opredelbi na Georgievski-Dimovska
> datiraat u{te od samiot po~etok na formiraweto na Partijata. me|utoa,
> nivnoto zna~ewe javnosta voglavno go prima{e i opravduva{e kako
> svoeviden hir na "mladiot, ekscentri~en i nedovolno iskusen lider", no
> i kako svoevidna protivte`a i prkosewe na srpskata opasnost za
> Makedonija, olicetvorena preku seu{te prisutnata JNA i tendenciite za
> ostanuvawe vo Jugoslavija po sekoja cena.
>
> Klu~en nastan za problemot koj go tretirame e negovata poseta na SAD
> i Kanada vo 1991 godina za koja Kiro Gligorov na HHVII -ta sednica na
> Parlamentot odr`ana na 05.12.1991 god. vo raspravata po povod
> ostavkata na Georgievski od funkcijata Potpretsedatel na Pretsedatelot
> se dava slednava ocenka: ". . . Potoa, patuva vo SAD pak vo vremeto na
> donesuvaweto na Ustavot (!) Veruvav deka nadvor ne mo`e taka da
> zboruva za sopstvenata zemja. Potoa ne veruvav deka mo`e da stane
> zalo`nik na edna organizacija koja na{iot narod ne go priznava i koja
> saka Makedonija da ja napravi provincija na druga dr`ava ". Za vreme
> na posetata Georgievski ja isfrli tezata za postoewe na
> "Makedonci-Srbi, Makedonci-Bugari, Makedonci-Grci" kako zarodi{ na
> negovata idna antimakedonska platforma, so koja de fakto go negira
> postoeweto na makedonskiot narod i gi potvrduva srpskite tezi na Cvii}
> i Novakovi} (onie koi najmnogu se kritikuvani od bugarskite vrhovisti)
> deka naselenieto vo Makedonija vo odnos na nacionalnoto ~uvstvo e
> "flotantna masa" koja "lesno" mo`e da se oblikuva, neli, po voljata na
> osvojuva~ite ??!!
>
> Vakvite negovi stavovi se direktna pri~ina za razijduvaweto na
> Gerogievski so Dragan Bogdanovski (eden od osniva~ite i ideolozite na
> VMRO-DPMNE) koj vo svoeto pismo vo "Nova Makedonija", od 05.12.1991
> god. go pi{uva i ova: "Na ovaa sredba me|u Dimitar Gocev od VMRO-SDM i
> Qup~o Georgievski stana zbor za koordinirana rabota na dvete VMRO, a
> klu~ki na taa kordinacija da bidat Stoj~e Naumov i Krasimir
> Karaka~anov, sekretar na VMRO-SDM. Za karakterot na akcijata {to treba
> da se koordinira, sega za sega ne sakam da zboruvam, no ako ne daj
> Bo`e se ostvari taa, toa bi zna~elo bugarizirawe na makedonskata
> Republika. . ."
>
> Za odbele`uvawe e {to prestojot vo Kanada go organizira{e Stoj~e
> Naumov (eden od glavnite ideolozi na bugarskoto lobi vo VMRO-DPMNE koj
> vo poslednite tri godini vo spisanijata "Glas" na VMRO-DPMNE i Delo
> objavi desetina tekstovi so antimakedonska sodr`ina) i Georgi
> Mladenov, pretstedatel na organizacijata na MPO vo Toronto, Kanada,
> koja ostana najuporna vo zastapuvaweto na velikobugarskite pretenzii
> sprema Makedonija i ~ija uloga vo ovoj antimakedonski zagovor se ~ini
> deka e edna od klu~nite ( za toa podetalno vo slednite stranici).
> Sli~ni obvinuvawa za probugarskata orientacija na Georgievski iznesoa
> i drugi li~nosti od onie koi ja formiraa VMRO-DPMNE a potoa ja
> napu{tija Partijata (Venko V~kov, Van~o Mehanxiski, Klime Mitrevski,
> Tomislav Stefkovski i drugi), me|utoa nivnite izjavi bea "pokrivani"
> so ostanatite krupni nastani koi toga{ se odvivaa vo dr`avata.
>
> Za podobro razbirawe na sega{niot stav na Q.Georgievski kon OMO
> Ilinden, potsetuvame na u{te eden biten moment : na I ot kongres na
> VMRO-DPMNE vo Prilep, 1991 god, toga{niot sekretar na OMO "Ilinden" od
> Blagoevgrad, Jordan Berbatov, pobara delegatite javno i jasno so
> Rezolucija da preciziraat deka VMRO-DPMNE e na poziciite na Goce
> Del~evata VMRO, da go osudi vrhovizmot na Van~o Mihajlov i Todor
> Aleksandrov, no i na postojnata bugarska vrhovisti~ka organizacija
> VMRO-SMD od Sofija, no takvoto barawe be{e odbieno . Vedna{ potoa vo
> partiskoto glasilo "Glas" se pojavija negativni ocenki za Atanas
> Kirjakov i Sokrat Markilov, poznati aktivisti na OMO "Ilinden" i
> robija{i vo bugarskite zatvori za makedonskata kauza, identi~ni so
> onie na velikobugarskata propaganda.
>
> Vo ovoj period Georgievski i Dimovska odr`uvaat postojani tajni
> kontakti so ~elnicite na VMRO-SMD i bugarskite vlasti za {to doma{nita
> javnost, nitu toga{, nitu podocna nikoga{ ne e informirana so bilo
> kakvo soop{tenie ili informacija za pe~atot za karakterot i
> sodr`inite na tie razgovori. Spored nekoi iska`uvawa na ~lenovi na
> VMRO DPMNE i ostavkata {to Georgievski ja podnese na funkcijata
> potpretsedatel na pretsedatelot e direktno sugerirana od Ivan Tatar~ev
> - javniot obvinitel na Bugarija i po~esen pretsedatel na VMRO-SMD!
> Kon sredinata na 1993 godina Dimovska zaedno so Dimitar Galev i
> bugarskiot ambasador vo RM Angel Dimitrov go organiziraat formiraweto
> na t.n. "Dvi`ewe za prijatelstvo me|u Republika Makedonija i Republika
> Bugarija". Na osnova~koto sobranie koe se odr`a vo prostoriite na
> Sobranieto na grad Skopje na koe vo prisustvo na osvedo~enite
> bugaromani vo Makedonija, vo nieden govor ili dokument voop{to ne be{e
> spomenato postoeweto na makedonskiot narod. Pa|a vo o~i deka vo
> serijata vakvi dru{tva za prijatelstvo me|u makedonskiot narod i
> drugite narodi (makedonsko-hrvatskoto, makedonsko-evrejskoto,
> makedonsko-amerikanskoto, makedonsko-srpskoto i t.n.) edinstveno ova e
> "Dvi`ewe..." i toa za prijatelstvo, no ne me|u narodite, tuku me|u
> dr`avite! Spored zamislata na Dimitar Galev koj be{e izbran za
> pretsedatel na "Dvi`eweto..." istoto imalo za cel aktivno da raboti za
> bri{ewe i relativizirawe na site kulturni, jazi~ni, etni~ki, istoriski
> i drug vid razliki me|u makedonskiot i bugarskiot narod i nivno
> stopuvawe vo edinstvena bugarska nacija.
>
> Sepak, vistinskata ofanziva na velikobugarskata politika vo
> VMRO-DPMNE zapo~nuva kon krajot na 1994 godina za da kulminacijata ja
> dostigne tokmu sega na ve}e istoriskata sednica na 30 avgust 1997.
> Prethodno formiranata VMRO-Tatkovinska vo koja se vgnezdija
> najeksponiranite borci za velikobugarskata kauza vo Makedonija, spored
> procenkite na stratezite vo Sofija, ne gi dade o~ekuvanite rezultati,
> pa zatoa se menuva taktikata i e odlu~eno bajrakot na bugar{tinata da
> go ponese VMRO-DPMNE. Pritoa, dadena e direktiva, malubrojnoto
> ~lenstvo na "tatkovincite" da premine vo VMRO-DPMNE, da se obide da se
> infiltrira vo strukturite na Partijata i da napravi prevrat so
> prezemawe na rakovodnite funkcii i eliminacija na klu~nite li~nosti od
> ortodoksnata makedonska opcija vo nea. Glaven realizator na vakvoto
> scenario e potpretsedatelot Dosta Dimovska koja vo ovoj period e
> postojan kontakt so bugarskiot ambasador Angel Dimitrov, so
> pretstavnici na VMRO-SMD (za edna od takvite sredbi javno progovori i
> porane{niot minister za vnatre{ni raboti Qubomir Fr~kovski,
> potenciraj}i za sredba na koja sekretarkata na VMRO-SMD na
> rakovodstvoto na VMRO-DPMNE im dala 50.000 DEM), so rakovodstvoto na
> VMRO-Tatkovinska (Crnomarov), so probugarski opredelenite lica vo
> VMRO-DPMNE, a ne{to podocna i so ruskiot ambasador vo R.Makedonija,
> Viktor Tru{in.
>
> Megutoa, glavnata pre~ka za prakti~na i efektivna realizacija na
> vakvoto scenario pretstavuva ulogata na generalniot sekretar na
> Partijata Boris Zmejkovski od najmalku dve pri~ini: prvo, negovata
> jasna makedonska nacionalna orientacija i vtoro, negovata funkcija
> generalen sekretar, odgovoren za organizacijata na terenot, a vo isto
> vreme i rakovoditel na Komisijata za kadrovski pra{awa. Takvata
> negova pozicija, kako i identi~nite opredelbi na negovite sorabotnici
> (Aleksandar Dinevski, Ivan Sokolov, Zoran Petreski i drugi),
> pretstavuva{e nepromostliva pre~ka za pozna~aen prodor na
> bugarofilstvoto vo Partijata. So formiraweto na KSIO-Komisija za
> strategiski istra`uvawa i organizacija (formirana formalno od strana
> na Izvr{niot komitet vo januari 1994 godina so posebna Odluka soglasno
> Statutot na VMRO-DPMNE) na ~ie ~elo e Zmejkovski, negovata pozicija
> be{e zajaknata {to gi doveduvaa{e do "ludilo" pobornicite na
> "kauzata". Za kratko vreme od svoeto postoewe KSIO so nesebi~en li~en
> anga`man na site nejzini ~lenovi postigna ogromni rezultati i stana
> vlijatelen i zna~aen faktor vo Partijata. Za prvpat od postoeweto na
> Partijata sredena e arhivata i dokumentacijata, nabaveni se kompjuteri
> i drugi tehni~ki sredstva, napravena e precizna evidencija i utvrden e
> pribli`niot broj na ~lenstvoto, a preku eden analiti~en materijal
> napravena e precizna "rentgen-snimka" na vistinskite realni sostojbi
> vo partiskite komiteti vo koi del od pretsedatelite za da gi zadr`at
> svoite pozicii la`no go informiraa rakovodstvoto na Partijata, za
> brojot na ~lenovite i za svoite aktivnosti.
> Vrz osnova na ovie analiti~ki sogleduvawa i procenki KSIO napravi
> kadrovski rekonstrukcii vo 20-tina Op{tinski komiteti koi pominaa
> bezbolno i re~isi vo ti{ina, za razlika od prethodnite takvi slu~uvawa
> koi gi polnea stranicite na pe~atot kako pikantni op{tinski slu~ai. Vo
> ovaa smisla, posebno karakteristi~ni se slu~aite vo Kisela Voda, Gazi
> Baba, Negotino, Probi{tip, Kru{evo, Vinica, [tip, Strumica, Kamenica,
> Ko~ani i drugi vo koi vo toj period ima{e aktivni odvaj po desetina
> ~lenovi, za da denes vo re~isi site ovie lokalni sobranija na vlast e
> VMRO-DPMNE! Vo isto vreme za okolu 16 Op{tinski komiteti ~lenovite na
> KSIO obezbedija rabotni prostorii za nivno normalno rabotewe.
>
------------------------------
prodolzhuva vo del 2
June R Harton
pseudo-' Makedon' wrote in his Bulgarian mother tongue again.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
..........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Vasko Makedonski
> pseudo-' Makedon' wrote in his Bulgarian mother tongue again.
What rubbish. You are trying to skate on water here not thin ice. Even
the Bulgarian government has effectively recognised the Macedonian
langauge as seperate from Bulgarian as they have called Macedonian a
"dialect". By them calling it a dialect they have have said it is
different than Bulgarian. So the people who should know whether
Macedonian is Bulgarian have called it different from Bulgarian yet you,
who are ignorant of both Macedonian and Bulgarian, are stabbing in the
dark and have only manged to publically stab yourself. Well done.
Vasko Makedonski
LET THE SUN SHINE OVER A FREE AND UNITED MACEDONIA
DEATH TO THE FOUR *EMPIRES OCCUPYING MACEDONIAN SOIL
*BULGARIA, GREECE, SERBIA, ALBANIA
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
June R Harton
Vasko Voulgarski wrote
> > pseudo-' Makedon' wrote in his Bulgarian mother tongue again.
> What rubbish.
Earth to Vasko......Earth to Vasko.......
> You are trying to skate on water here not thin ice. Even
> the Bulgarian government has effectively recognised the Macedonian
> langauge as seperate from Bulgarian as they have called Macedonian a
> "dialect". By them calling it a dialect they have have said it is
> different than Bulgarian.
What a load of hogwash.
> So the people who should know whether
> Macedonian is Bulgarian have called it different from Bulgarian yet you,
> who are ignorant of both Macedonian and Bulgarian, are stabbing in the
> dark and have only manged to publically stab yourself. Well done.
Duh!
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
............The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
PYRSOS wrote
"The territory of modern Bulgaria, extending up into Wallachia and down into
Macedonia, had meanwhile been settled by the Bulgaro-Macedonian Slavs. They
belonged to a different linguistic group from those who became Serbs and
Croatians. They spoke an old form of Bulgarian which surely then differed
less from the language of their western neighbors than it does now.
Zlatarski has speculated that these Bulgaro-Macedonians were descented from
the Antes who were living north of the Danube in the fifth century. These
Slavs had not formed a state but were living as tribes."
John VA Fine, "The Early Medieval Balkans", Michigan, 1991
stef
>What rubbish. You are trying to skate on water here not thin ice. Even
>the Bulgarian government has effectively recognised the Macedonian
>langauge as seperate from Bulgarian as they have called Macedonian a
>"dialect". By them calling it a dialect they have have said it is
>different than Bulgarian. So the people who should know whether
>Macedonian is Bulgarian have called it different from Bulgarian yet you,
>who are ignorant of both Macedonian and Bulgarian, are stabbing in the
>dark and have only manged to publically stab yourself. Well done.
>
>Vasko Makedonski
>
Hmmmm.... the Bulgarian government has recognised "the official language of
Republic of Macedonia", in the same manner as it would have recognised "the
official language of the USA" if there was any.
As for the dialect, I am not sure of the precise number (this is Ilya's
domain) but there is a two-digure number of Bulgarian dialects. Similar is
the situation with Greek, British English, German, Italian, French, Russian.
You might want to have a look at the definition of the term "dialect":
Main Entry: di·a·lect
Pronunciation: 'dI-&-"lekt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle French dialecte, from Latin dialectus, from Greek
dialektos conversation, dialect, from dialegesthai to converse -- more at
DIALOGUE
Date: 1577
1 a : a regional variety of language distinguished by features of
vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and
constituting together with them a single language <the Doric dialect of
ancient Greek>
b : one of two or more cognate languages <French and Italian are Romance
dialects>
c : a variety of a language used by the members of a group <such dialects as
politics and advertising -- Philip Howard>
d : a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other than
geography (as social class) <spoke a rough peasant dialect>
e : REGISTER 4c
f : a version of a computer programming language
2 : manner or means of expressing oneself : PHRASEOLOGY
- di·a·lec·tal /"dI-&-'lek-t&l/ adjective
- di·a·lec·tal·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb
The Bulgarian understanding of the Macedonian dialect fits 1 a definition.
The aim of Bl. Konev(ski) was to create something that would fit 1 b
definition. In my opinion he has more or less succeded, yet some of my
friends from Ochrid say that I speak in the manner of their grandmother.
SN
pes...@my-deja.com
news:830jbb$n7u$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
The question which now remains is whether the Macedonian people, the
VMRO-DPNE and the Macedonian President are strong enough and determined
enough to reverse a linguistic split which now exists because it serves
the interests of a few people who are still holding on to the
privileged positions which they gained under the Yugoslav occupation
(Macedonian independence was proclaimed with a decree voted in the
Bulgarian Subranie on September 6th 1944). They better do before it is
too late and the current official language becomes too established, too
popular and to reverse the split may do more damage than good.
I personally think that now is not too late. At least I am convinced
that the Macedonian people would be able to adopt their language to the
language of their grandfathers and that of the modern day Bulgarians
and thus regain for themselves a huge resource of cultural and
spiritual wealth without the risk of losing all or too many of the real
benefits gained from the language that they currently use.
One way of assuring that these benefits or "gains" are not reversed too
is of course by making sure that there are no political recriminations.
Then things run sooooo much smoother.
Another question is whether we Bulgarians should be telling you all
this. I'd hate to be accused though, that I do not care for you guys.
Anyway common sense dictates that we can say anything to each other as
long as we do it nicely.
Best regards
PPaunov
Ilya V. Talev
pes...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ... One way of assuring that these benefits or "gains" are not reversed
> too
> is of course by making sure that there are no political recriminations.
> Then things run sooooo much smoother.
Just like in Bulgaria!
Look how things have been running smoother in the last 10 years!
IT
sp...@erols.com
stef wrote:
>
>
> The Bulgarian understanding of the Macedonian dialect fits 1 a definition.
> The aim of Bl. Konev(ski) was to create something that would fit 1 b
> definition. In my opinion he has more or less succeded, yet some of my
> friends from Ochrid say that I speak in the manner of their grandmother.
But your grandmother is Macedonian, didn't you so state?
>
>
> SN
Vasko Makedonski
> >What rubbish. You are trying to skate on water here not thin ice.
Even
> >the Bulgarian government has effectively recognised the Macedonian
> >langauge as seperate from Bulgarian as they have called Macedonian a
> >"dialect". By them calling it a dialect they have have said it is
> >different than Bulgarian. So the people who should know whether
> >Macedonian is Bulgarian have called it different from Bulgarian yet
you,
> >who are ignorant of both Macedonian and Bulgarian, are stabbing in
the
> >dark and have only manged to publically stab yourself. Well done.
> >
> >Vasko Makedonski
> >
>
> Hmmmm.... the Bulgarian government has recognised "the official
language of
> Republic of Macedonia", in the same manner as it would have recognised
"the
> official language of the USA" if there was any.
> As for the dialect, I am not sure of the precise number (this is
Ilya's
> domain) but there is a two-digure number of Bulgarian dialects.
Similar is
> the situation with Greek, British English, German, Italian, French,
Russian.
> The Bulgarian understanding of the Macedonian dialect fits 1 a
definition.
> The aim of Bl. Konev(ski) was to create something that would fit 1 b
> definition. In my opinion he has more or less succeded, yet some of my
> friends from Ochrid say that I speak in the manner of their
grandmother.
If the Russians colonised a section of Mars and after five hundred years
they spoke a distinctly different langauge than Russian their langauge
would be accurately described as a Russian dialect because it evovled
from Russian. The Macedonian language cannot under any circumstances be
described as a dialect of Bulgarian for the simple reason that people
from Bulgaria did not settle in Macedonia and therefore the Macedonian
language cannot be said to have evolved from Bulgarian. Macedonian and
Bulgarian are similar because Macedonia and Bulgaria were settled by the
same Slavic tribe(s) who gave their language with slight dialects to
Macedonia and Bulgaria. Thus calling Macedonian a dialect of Bulgarian
is as ludicrous and nonsensical as calling Bulgarian a dialect of
Macedonian.
Vasko Makedonski
LET THE SUN SHINE OVER A FREE AND UNITED MACEDONIA
DEATH TO THE FOUR *EMPIRES OCCUPYING MACEDONIAN SOIL
*BULGARIA, GREECE, SERBIA, ALBANIA
June R Harton
Galina wrote
> stef wrote:
>>yet some of my friends from Ochrid say that I speak in the
>>manner of their grandmother.
Fyromian
>didn't you so state?
Oh, shut up Galina.
But you have zero connection with the Balkans, didn't you so state?
And certainly have not the slightest credibility when you cannot
differentaiate between a language and a dialect.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
..............The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
Vasko Voulgarski wrote
> If the Russians colonised a section of Mars and after five hundred years
> they spoke a distinctly different langauge than Russian their langauge
> would be accurately described as a Russian dialect because it evovled
> from Russian.
DUH!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
> The Macedonian
fYROMian
> language
Rest of your racist stupidity deleted. The Bulgarian name was the
name the Slavs in the fyromian and Bulgarian areas came to use.
As simple as that.
Vasko Makedonski
> Rest of your racist stupidity deleted.
I did not write anything which was racist. Anyone who cares can look for
themselves at what I wrote and will come to the conclusion that
describing it as racist is nonsensical. The word 'racist' implies
someone or something which espousers the theory that human ability is
based on race. It also refers to someone who hates all races bar his/her
own. So July, the term racist could be accurately levelled at you
because you fit both descriptions of it. I do not believe humanabilities
are based on race nor do I hate non-Macedonians.
June R Harton
Put it this way, you are stupid. And by your nonsense
against the Bulgarians shows to everyone, except you
fyromian revisionists, that you are racists, and suffer
from inferiority complexes like Galina and rubberhead.
Vasko Makedonski
continuosly shooting it, has decided she wants to get rid of her other
foot by shooting it with an AK47 =
> ...by your nonsense
> against the Bulgarians shows to everyone, except you
> fyromian revisionists, that you are racists...
Is it not you who has repeatedly stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians?
If so, then how on earth can we Macedonians be a racist against our own
race- the Bulgarians? What you have done is to state publically that
Bulgarians are not of the same racial heritage as Macedonians. You are
becoming more of a Macedonian patriot day by day. Your paymasters-the
Greekkk government-must be very pleased with you.
Simeon Vlahov
every posting):
-- quote --
LET THE SUN SHINE OVER A FREE AND UNITED MACEDONIA
DEATH TO THE FOUR *EMPIRES OCCUPYING MACEDONIAN SOIL
*BULGARIA, GREECE, SERBIA, ALBANIA
--- end quote ---
... perfectly well clears the fact that you are racist. We non-racists do
not want the death of whole nations , including our neighbours'.
Have a nice night,
moni
Vasko Makedonski wrote:
> July R(evisionist) Hartonopolos wrote =
>
> > Rest of your racist stupidity deleted.
>
> I did not write anything which was racist. Anyone who cares can look for
> themselves at what I wrote and will come to the conclusion that
> describing it as racist is nonsensical. The word 'racist' implies
> someone or something which espousers the theory that human ability is
> based on race. It also refers to someone who hates all races bar his/her
> own. So July, the term racist could be accurately levelled at you
> because you fit both descriptions of it. I do not believe humanabilities
> are based on race nor do I hate non-Macedonians.
>
Josif Grezlovski
neuron.
He is the dumbest person on this ng.
Josif Grezlovski
http://www.gate.net/~joegrez
"Ancient Macedonians looked down upon the Hellenes with
contempt The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians
have grown into a proud masterful nation which with
highly developed national consciousness looked down
upon the Hellenes with contempt"
Ulrich Wilcken.
"The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as
a Greek hero, especially to army recruits: The Greeks
of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a
half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror,
would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I
did."
Peter Green [Alexander of Macedon]
You can crush all the roses you want but you are not
going to stop the spring from coming
Vasko Makedonski wrote in message <837t87$pim$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>jULY r(evisionist) Hartonopolos who has amputated her foot by
>continuosly shooting it, has decided she wants to get rid of her other
>foot by shooting it with an AK47 =
>
>> ...by your nonsense
>> against the Bulgarians shows to everyone, except you
>> fyromian revisionists, that you are racists...
>
>Is it not you who has repeatedly stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians?
>If so, then how on earth can we Macedonians be a racist against our own
>race- the Bulgarians? What you have done is to state publically that
>Bulgarians are not of the same racial heritage as Macedonians. You are
>becoming more of a Macedonian patriot day by day. Your paymasters-the
>Greekkk government-must be very pleased with you.
>
June R Harton
Vasko Voulgarski wrote
> Is it not you who has repeatedly stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians?
> If so, then how on earth can we Macedonians be a racist against our own
> race- the Bulgarians? What you have done is to state publically that
> Bulgarians are not of the same racial heritage as Macedonians. You are
> becoming more of a Macedonian patriot day by day. Your paymasters-the
> Greekkk government-must be very pleased with you.
Ah dear, you are such idiots, you are almoat unbelievable:
FYROM President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this area in the
sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign Information Service
Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
P Gevgeliev wrote in "Skopje revives macedonian spectre", Free
Bulgaria,pp229-230,
It is true that we have given up the teaching of "Macedonian history", a
high falutin term for the ravings of a handful of maniacs in Skopje who are
so far gone in their nationalistic dementia and mental aberration as to
claim that the present "Macedonian" people are descendants of
Alexander the Great.
These "historians" seem to overlook the fact that the Slav tribes came to
this territory fully a thousand years after the death of Alexander the
Macedon."
June R Harton
Josif Absurdity wrote
> Do not be surprised; the hermaphrodite June cartoon has only one
functional
> neuron.
> He is the dumbest person on this ng.
Ah, Josif, you want people to see this again!
Sure! :
OK Josif, I know you have been anxiously wondering
"where was my response then?!", and this has been
making you real hateful:
9/20/98 Josif wrote
>Greece is the anus of Macedonia........
But I am not going to give up on you. You show the
possibility of becoming a fine scholar. You have started
reading the books for yourself and that is to be commended.
But now you must learn to read what is there, not
what you want to be there, and learn how to deduce things
correctly from what is there. I do _not_ believe what some
think, that you are fully, yet, one of the minions of the angels
of Chaos and I am willing to give you one last chance,
even though there has recently been little to show that
you haven't sunk totally into that morass.
OK, so let's find your first statement.
-----Original Message-----
From: josif Grezlovski
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 2:58 AM
Subject: Livy's quote - the evidence
>Livy's Quote - the evidence
> Lately, in the past several weeks, we have been bombarded with the newest
>"dig" promoted by the opposing camp, about the so called, [read invented
>fabrication] "greekness" of the ancient Macedonians.
FACT NOT FABRICATION
"The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end ........."
>This greek fellow [who, btw,
>hides behind somebody else's account, a cheapskate himself]
Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
> attepted to subvert Livy's quote and decorate it with pure
>"greek adornments"
This?
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
(The following is very eloquent Josif! Perhaps you
would have liked to defend Philip B against Demosthenes!)
>to such an extent that the original content of the author
>is blatantly drawned with greek phantasy of colours of
>unmatched and unsurpassed proportions.
This?
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
>To read between the lines is prudent,
No. (I could say more but I'm trying to treat
you as an adult - don't let me down). This is how
it goes Josif, you read and understand what
the historian says.
>to create new text where no place for it
>existed before, is to admit to yourself
>and others, that your expectations
>have overpowered and exceeded your
>sense of reality, and you no longer can
>render judgement in a coherent and a just way.
>In other words, your appetite is being
>guided by illusions and wishful thinking.
Josif, why is it that when I read your words
_your_ posts immediately leap to mind?!
>I would like the readers to focus their attention
>on several key points from Livy's quote where
>our adversary has drowen the "strength" and
>the "bulk" of his contention, namely:
>(a) the Philip's man reference to Romans as "aliens", and as "barbarians",
>and (b) his usage of this passage:
>'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
>or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
>to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
>will be for ever at war;
>[Here, I will leave the quote for your reference, and I will address
>these two key positions below.
>Please note that the text in the quote has selectively
>been lifted, or cut off,
??????????????
This is my title:
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
This is my introduction giving you the plain factual
lead - up to the words said:
In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the
Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance
from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War.
At the council was also the Roman representative
sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the
Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time.
A hearing was first given to the Macedonians.
The Macedonian delegates said:
This is the text bottom page 47:
'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians)
to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that
peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
This is the text bottom page 48
................. . It is sheer madness to expect anything will
etc.
> and the segments do, indeed, appear to be disjointed.
Bite your tongue, Josif, and go wash out your mouth with
soap.
> In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
>Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
>League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the
>Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance
>from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War.
>At the council was also the Roman representative
>sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the
>Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time.
>A hearing was first given to the Macedonians.
>The Macedonian delegates said:
>'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians)
>to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that
>peace, once it had been established'.
>'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
>................ . It is sheer madness to expect anything will
>remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated
>from you by language, customs and laws than by distance
>over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
>The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
>or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
>to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
>will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
>reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
>and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........
>------------------------
>Let us now spend some time exploring the
>word/reference 'barbarian' used
>by the Macedonian delegate in regards to Romans.
>First of all, the greek fellow drows an unwavering
>conclusion that the above reference solidly puts the
>ancient Macedonians within the ranks of greeks/hellenes,
>and he states:
>"Macedonians are saying that they have always
>been Greek and are Greek", and "And, by the way,
>it was stated as an unquestionable fact and received
>by those present as an unquestionable fact."
The above was an accurate SUMMARY
statement worded with care from me to Josif,
when I was trying to help him to understand
WHAT THE QUOTE MEANS TO SOMEONE
DOING RESEARCH INTO WHETHER THE
ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WERE GREEK
OR NOT, AND ALSO, ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF
ARGUMENT, WHETHER THEY WERE
CONSIDERED GREEK OR NOT, and to encourage
him to get the book and read it himself.
THE SPOKEN WORDS, PUT CRUDELY, SAY
"US GREEKS, WHO WILL ALWAYS BE GREEKS,
WE SQUABBLE AND FIGHT BETWEEN OURSELVES
SOMETIMES BUT WE GOTTA STICK TOGETHER
AGAINST THE FOREIGNERS, WHO WILL ALWAYS
BE FOREIGNERS, AND WILL ALWAYS BE OUR
ENEMIES."
> So be it, but what was presented at the meeting
>and what you the reader have been offered as evidence
>and as "an unquestionable fact" are two diametrically
>opposed entities and here is why:
>At the meeting, led by the Roman consul's
>representative Lucius Furius Purpurio, present was
>the Athenian deputation which was given a hearing,
>a chance, to air their grievences against the
>Macedonian king Philip V. At this juncture,
Josif is trying to tell you here that after the
Macedonians spoke, the Athenians spoke.
(I had intentionally included the information in my
introduction that the Athenians and Romans were
present so everyone would have the opportunity
to look up what _they_ said.)
>I need to solicit your undivided attention and focus on
>the following opposits:
> (a) The speech by Macedonian delegate, and
> (b) the response from the Athenian deputation.
Page 49 - Livy says
(Josif is not writing the next part word for word):
>The grievences of the Athenians were not the
>revaging of their countryside
>by Philip. They did not complain about the
>sufferings that they endured, the devastation of
>their country, the burning of their fields, the
>demolishing of their houses,
>or men and animals being carried away as
>booty, for they understood the consequences
>of war. They understood the legitimate senctions
>when one is the conqueror and the other
>is the conquered subject.
> "All these is grievous for the sufferer; but it is not unjust."
>[A remarkable insight of what once mighty
>conqueror felt about those whom he had subjugated in the past.]
{Thank you for your commentary, Josif, but this is talking
about the Athenians and further distracting us from your point}
> "But they did complain that the man who called the Romans aliens
> and barbarians had so polluted all laws, human and devine alike,
> that in his first act of devastation he had waged an unholy war
> against the gods of the neither world, and in his second, against
> the gods above. All the tombs and memorials in their territory
> had been destroyed; the shades of all the departed had been
> stripped; no one's bones were allowed their covering of earth.
> ...................
> Around all these temples Philip had kindled his destructive fires;
> the images of the gods lay, half burned and dismembered, among
> the fallen door-posts of the their shrines. If he were given the chance,
> he would reduce Aetolia and the whole of Greece to the condition
> to which he had reduced the land of Attica, a land once richly
> endowed with works of art." [p.50 Livy]
The above 2 paras are basically word for word.
{But this is p. 49 isn't it Josif?}
> He continnued further to describe Philip's cruelty as "criminal
>wickedness"
>Remember that the Macedonian delegate called the Romans
>'aliens' and 'barbarians', and here we have an Athenian delegate
>describing Philip V of Macedon with such a disdain as to place
>him even below the level of a barbarian.
Exactly my point Josif.
'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians,
are divided or united by unimportant causes that arise from
time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
You see, Josif, the Macedonian's in their desperation
reached down to a nationalistic level that was even
racist in it's pitch, and no - one denied the statement.
In THE ATHENIAN response, in _your_ own words,
they described Philip V of Macedon with such a disdain
as to place him even below the level of a barbarian.
THE ATHENIANS SAID THEN IN ENGLISH : _YOU_ HAVE
THE GALL TO CALL THEM ALIENS AND BARBARIANS!
LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DONE TO US IN
THIS WAR! _YOU_ ARE THE MOST BARBARIC AND
LOATHSOME PERSON ON EARTH!
But, Joseph, what they _DIDN'T_ respond with was:
"What do you mean you are Greeks? You are not
Greeks, you are alien Macedonians just like the
Roman's are aliens! And on top of that, you are
the most barbaric creature on earth!"
When you do research Josif, first of all understand
what is being said, then look at what ISN'T said.
>The other noteworthy point that I need to bring forward
>is the following sentence:
>"If he were given the chance [meaning Philip], he would reduce Aetolia
>and the WHOLE OF GRRECE to the condition to which he had reduced the land
>of Attica."
>This statement alone signifies with clarity the unbeatable fact that
>Greece was not Philip's land. That Macedonia and Greece were
>never one country.
That last sentence is simply untrue.
Josif, with your line of reasoning,
"he would reduce Aetolia and the WHOLE OF GRRECE",
Aetolia would not be in Greece.
>That 'Macedonia is Greece' slogans is just that
>slogans, empty and rediculous fabrications, for no ruler, let
>alone a king, will, or ever has destroyed his own land/kingdom on purpose.
>No ruler in history of mankind, has ever burned his own crops, taken away
>man and
>animals as booty,
>devastated his own countryside, or pillaged his own cities, let alone, burn
>down his own temples and monuments.
> 'The whole of Greece' means no Macedonia, for Philip will not reduce his
>own kingdom. No ambiguity here, no double meanings or possible
>"interpretations" . What you
>see, is what you are not going to get. Dumbfounded are all illusory
>assertions that Macedonia 'is Greece'.
As I said above Josif, with your line of reasoning,
"he would reduce Aetolia and the WHOLE OF GRRECE"
Aetolia would not be in Greece.
But let me put you out of your misery.
You may now note my title is:
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
'An' means 'a', 'a single one', 'one'. You should
be able to see by now that no one is saying it
is one and the same as the Greek land of the
Athenians and the Spartans. This is a Greek
land to the north of that land.
You are basically right. Macedonia was indeed Macedonia.
But read Herodotus to see that the Macedonian Greeks
and Dorian Greeks were more 'Greek' than the Athenians!
Also, read Herodotus to understand the nature of the ancient
Macedonian Greeks, both their royal house and their
people, and read Thucydides to understand the
nature of the ancient Macedonian Greek territory.
{And now Josif, do not post back how some idiot like
Padian _interprets_ what is in Herodotos work. Read
Hammond to see that Padian's work was, correctly, found
by him to be flawed. More on this later.}
The exact references have been listed many times for
your review so I'm not going to list them again.
Also, here is a little treat for you written by Anastassios:
"It is indeed true that the Hellas was defined in the
ancient world as the land as far north as Thessaly.
However, this area excluded Ionia and the whole
coast of Asia Minor that was inhabited by Greeks,
southern Italy and Sicily, Cyprus and, of course,
Macedonia and Epirus. Therefore, because Hellas
was defined in these limited terms, it hardly means
that this was the end of the Hellenic world."
The FOLLOWING was an accurate SUMMARY
statement, worded with care from me to Josif,
when I was trying to help him to understand
WHAT THE QUOTE MEANS TO SOMEONE
DOING RESEARCH INTO WHETHER THE
ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WERE GREEK
OR NOT, AND ALSO, ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF
ARGUMENT, WHETHER THEY WERE
CONSIDERED GREEK OR NOT, and to encourage
him to get the book and read it himself.
THE SPOKEN WORDS, PUT CRUDELY, SAY
"US GREEKS, WHO WILL ALWAYS BE GREEKS,
WE SQUABBLE AND FIGHT BETWEEN OURSELVES
SOMETIMES BUT WE GOTTA STICK TOGETHER
AGAINST THE FOREIGNERS, WHO WILL ALWAYS
BE FOREIGNERS, AND WILL ALWAYS BE OUR
ENEMIES."
>"Macedonians are saying that they have always
>been Greek and are Greek",
>and "And, by the way, it was stated as an
>unquestionable fact and received by
>those present as an unquestionable fact."
>Question:
> Are they saying that?
YES.
'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians,
are divided or united by unimportant causes that arise
from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks
are and will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not
for reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
> Was it stated?
YES.
'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
>by whom?
The Macedonian delegates said:
'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians)
to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that
peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
AND CONTINUES WITH
'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
> The Athenians?
No, the Macedonians themselves.
> How far can you walk with lies??????????????
Remember, I'm giving you this one last chance, Josif
>Point 2.
>The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians.......
>The Greek fellow assumes that since these peoples
>above are mentioned in one sentence together,
>it means that they are all greeks
Josif, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here,
assuming that because English is not your native language
that you are having difficulties understanding the
text. (I am assuming you are not deliberately trying to
delay me from your current master's neck, so I'll
continue patiently).
YES, Josif, that is what the sentence says.
>as he puts it: 'they are greeks by eternal nature'.
No, Josif, the _text_ says it on page 49, near the top
of the page:
"The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians,
are divided or united by unimportant causes that
arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians,
all Greeks are and will be for ever at war; for they
are enemies not for reasons which change from day
to day, but by nature - and nature is eternal.
But now my speech will end .........''
>In one of the previous posts I responded to this passage
>with contextual meaning of the words used in such a
>"delivery" - as in a sale's pitch.
Thank you for your ideas Josif, but they are irrelevant.
>In Philip's case to persuade the other cities not to
>leave him and side with Rome.
Josif, my introduction said:
"In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the
Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance
from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War."
>Here, I will present the opinion, or the sentiment
>expressed by the other Greeks against Philip.
You know, Josif so far you haven't said ANYTHING.
(Sorry, I am committed to being patient with you)
>The passage below describes the events around
>200 B.C. where Philip of Macedon suffers all kinds
>of set-backs. Romans are breathing on his neck, the
>greeks have found an opening, have rebelled,
Not accurate Josif. The 'greeks' have not rebelled.
You, I presume, mean that the Acarnanians requested help
from Philip, and to allow them to make war on Athens,
page 34, and the Athenians declared war on Philip,
page 35.
> and have sided with Rome. The northern frontiers
>are also under attack from Dardanni and Illirian tribes.
>The fleet of the Roman commander Lucius Augustus
>has put anchor at Hermione and was joined by king Attalus.
(Look up who king Attalus was Josif.)
>The Athenian community who has been kept in check
>'gave free rein to their anger' against Philip.
>For the passage below, please focus your attention
>on the Athenian reference of Macedonia and the
>Macedonian people:
>The Athenian popular assembly immediately carried
>proposals in regards to Philip and Macedonia.
>Among the listed proposals were the following:
> "......that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer
> on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies,
This included the Romans too at this time Josif
> their armies
> and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES
> and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces
> on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME
> OF THE MACEDONIANS." [p.64 Livy's book]
Again Josif, your English is failing you. This is like
saying in Scottish "May your Clan rot in hell!" (Sorry Scots!)
And there have been occasions of just this.
Or one Germanic tribe about another Germanic
tribe.
>Such were the sentiments of the Athenian people
>towards Philip of Macedon.
>Was he, Philip V their king?
No, this wasn't an Athenian civil war.
> Were Macedonians regarded as Greeks?
> Were the ancient Macedonians regarded as people
> of the same race with the Greeks?
Clearly YES to both questions.
'The Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
>This is not Demosthenes speaking. This is 200 B.C.
>It is the Athenian Assembly.
>passing decrees against another RACE,
>against the Macedonians.
Clan or Tribe Josif, Clan or Tribe! Remember to read
Herodotos.
> Note, that even Philip's family and his realm are
>being cursed and execrated. So much for
>the Teninid descent of the Royal house of Macedon.
Josif, this was Philip V of the Antigonid Dynesty
not Philip B of the Argead Dynasty.
{Which reminds me Josif, do you realise that
Alexander ("the Philhellene") A's great, great,
grandfather's name was Philip A? Amazing how
obvious the Greekness of the Macedonians gets
after a while}.
>Good day
>Josif
No, not quite Josif, lets look at another post
of yours to address what you said about my
2nd quote:
----Original Message-----
From: josif Grezlovski Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia
Date: Friday, September 04, 1998 6:01 AM
Subject: The Levy's quote
>_Rome dictates terms after 3rd Macedonian War_
>A large section of Levy's text deleted.
>It was also decreed
>that Macedonia should pay to the Roman people
>half the tribute which they had customarily paid to
>their kings. ........................................................ .
>29. Paulus had given orders that on a certain day
>ten leading citizens from each city should present
>themselves at Amphipolis, that all official documents
>deposited in different places should be collected by
>that time, and the king's money should be brought
>in. When the day arrived, Paulus, accompanied by
>the ten commissioners, took his seat on his official
>platform, surrounded by the whole crowd of
>Macedonians. The Macedonians were accustomed
>to the power of kings; but this new sovereign power
>was displayed to them in a fashion to inspire
>dread; the consul's seat of judgment, his entrance
>after a path had been cleared, the herald, and
>the attendant - all these were novelties to their eyes
>and ears, and they were things that might have
>frightened even allies, not to speak of conquered
>enemies. When the herald had imposed silence,
>Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the
>Senate, along with his own decisions, made on the
>advice of his council.
>The praetor Gnaeus Octavius - for he too was
>there - translated these announcements into
>Greek and conveyed them to the Macedonians.
>------------------------
>Let me enlighten you about a few things for which you
>possess no substrate.
>The language people use does not ethnicity make.
>It may be one of the indices for ethnicity and not
>the sole determinant of it.
_You_ are in denial Josif, but you are right
in one thing, it surely is one of them. Sometimes
even a major one!
>(a) Paulus speaks Latin.
>(b) Octavius translates Latin into greek
>(c) conveys them to the Macedonians.
>Meaning that:
>1. Paulus does not speak or want to speak Greek
>2. Octavius knows latin as well as Greek
>3. The Macedonian delegation understands Greek.
Josif, "Paulus had given orders that on a certain day
ten leading citizens from each city should present
themselves at Amphipolis"
The Macedonian people are being communicated to
by the Romans and you can see from the text
in my original post deleted by you, the care with
which they want to communicate their message
of freedom to the Macedonian people, which is why
I included it in the text in the first place. So, the
Romans in order to _communicate_ to this "crowd"
of Macedonians in the Macedonians' own homeland
translate their Latin into Greek, they do _not_
procure a translator to translate it into some
_non-existant_ _ficticious_ 'Macedonian' language.
Absolutely no evidence of it having _any_ existance
in Macedonia per Livy's quote. Remember what I
patiently explained to you above: When you do
reseach, Josif, first of all understand what is being
said, then look at what ISN'T said.
>Conclusion:
>First: Macedonians did not understand Latin
>but did understand Greek, or whatever version of
>"koine" was in use at that time.
>Second: Being the ruling/governing body in Greece
>they, the Macedonians became diglossoi, had
>the command of Macedonian as well as greek.
You are fabricating Livy's lines again!
>Third: The Roman commander can understand
>greek but not Macedonian.
>Your highly used quote bears no fruits.
>The uncomfortable fact still remains: Even
>if the ancient Macedonians spoke greek their
>ethnicity remains Macedonian to the core
Here is another little treat for you from something
Anastassios wrote:
(Regarding the claim) " that the Macedonians did
speak Greek throughout this period but they were
"Macedonians" through and through. This is not true.
Actually, from Antigonos Gonatas onwards, the
Macedonian state did change its description vis-a-vis
the Amphictyonic council and the Delphi oracle to
conform with the standard of practice throughout Greece.
So, while it was appropriate before to address the
Macedonian delegates as "those send by Antigonos",
the description changed to the "Makethonikon koinon"
which can be loosely translated as the "Macedonian
Common". Furthermore, Macedonian towns were
organized very much along the southern Greek pattern.
What is evident then, that when Macedonians and southern
Greeks came in extensive contact from the time of Philip II,
the Macedonians, who were isolated and maintained
virtually a Homeric society, rushed headlong to catch up
with the developments in the Greek world.
(Any arguments) that the developments in Macedonia
mirrored developments in the non-Greek Hellenistic
world are pure fantasy. There are excellent records
that indicate that the Asiatic populations were never
converted en mass to hellenism. Greek did not spread
beyond the core cities (in Asia), and indeed in the middle
East well into the 3rd century AD, Aramaic was mainly
spoken and Greek was only understood and spoken in
the "islands" of Antioch and some coastal towns.
On the other hand, Macedonia was Greek speaking
as we know from many sources. You really do not have
to go back. There are many inscriptions in Philippi
from Roman times and many of them funenary ones.
In addition, Macedonia was organized by the Romans
very much as the south of Greece, as a League of Cities,
the only two provinces in the empire to have this kind
of organization. So, when one looks beyond the stupid
plays of words, one discerns an essential similarity
between Macedonia and Southern Greece which is
not and could not have been coincidental.
Regarding the fusion of (both Greek lands), there are
excellent statements as to that in P. Green's book
"From Alexander to Actium".
>and the wealth of documented evidence remains
>as solid as ever - Ancient Macedonians were not
>regarded as Greeks period. No amount of wishful
>thinking can change that.
>However, if interested chew on this fat for a while,
>and no, you do not need to resort to wishful
>thinking; what you read is what you get.
>p.254 [from 'The Hellenistic World' by Walbank]
>"279 the Gauls invade Macedonia and Greece."
>p.253 Date chart ----- Greece and Macedonia.
>p. 115 an Arab in Alexandria states:
>"I am a barbarian, and I do not know how to behave
> like a Greek".
>"A certain Ptolemy, complains that he is persecuted
>because he is a Greek and not a Macedonian"
>p. 113
>"There was of course Alexandria, a cosmopolitan
> agglomeration, the heart of Ptolemaic administration,
> with a large population of Greeks, Macedonians, Jews
>and native Egyptians."
>"Greek and Macedonian ruling class"
>Need more clear distinctions between greeks
>and Macedonians? AS you can (not) see, I do not
> need to interpret the text, nor do I need to
>"invent" things to suit my wishful desires".
>What is here is pure and simple fact; you have
>lied and improvised to suit your agenda driven
>patron. Rest of your implied passages are
>irrelevant. However, for the boundaries
>of Macedonia I will supply you with another
> "classic" for your reading pleasures.
>Good day
>Josif
>You can crush all the roses you want but you are not
>going to stop the spring from coming
>Josif Grezlovski
Now Josif, if you are able to cut loose from the
morass you were being consumed by, you should
be able to reread the Livy quote below and understand
how foolish these last statements you made are.
If my faith in you is misplaced, so be it.
I will never know because you are.........
in my kill file as of now.
Here is the post again.
Do yourself a favor and get out of Greek
history, at least until you can understand it.
Good luck Josif, don't let me down:
MACEDONIA - An Ancient GREEK Land
In the year 200 B.C. the Macedonian King Philip V sent
Macedonian ambassadors to the council of the Aetolian
League, the 'Panaetolian Congress', to try to prevent the
Romans from inducing the Aetolians to change their allegiance
from Philip V to the Romans in their 2nd Macedonian War.
At the council was also the Roman representative
sent by the consul, and also a deputation from the
Athenians who were the Romans' allies at this time.
A hearing was first given to the Macedonians.
The Macedonian delegates said:
'..........the same reasons which led them (the Aetolians)
to make peace with Philip should lead them to keep that
peace, once it had been established'.
'Or do you prefer' said one of the the delegates, '.......
................. . It is sheer madness to expect anything will
remain in the same state if aliens, more widely separated
from you by language, customs and laws than by distance
over sea and land, obtain control over these parts.
Philip's rule ............. . Allow the foreign legions to settle
down in these parts and take the yoke on your shoulders;
then it will be too late and all in vain to call on Philip as
your ally, when you have the Roman for your lord. The
Aetolians, the Acarnanians, the Macedonians, are divided
or united by unimportant causes that arise from time
to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks are and
will be for ever at war; for they are enemies not for
reasons which change from day to day, but by nature -
and nature is eternal. But now my speech will end .........'
Livy (Titus Livius), XXXI.28 - XXXI.29
from LIVY. ROME AND THE MEDITERRANEAN
Translated by HENRY BETTENSON
PENGUIN CLASSICS
For fair use only
_Rome dictates terms after 3rd Macedonian War_
17 [167 B.C.]. The Senate appointed ten commissioners
for Macedonia and five for Illyricum; on their advice
Paulus and Anicius were to settle affairs in those
countries. The members of the Macedonian
commission were nominated first: they were .......... .
The men who were being sent on the commissions
were of a quality to justify the hope that on their
advice the commanders would make no decisions
inconsistant with the clemency and the dignity of the
Roman people; nevertheless, there were discussions
in the Senate about guiding principles of policy so
that the commissioners should be able to convey from
home to the generals the ground work of a settlement.
18. First of all, it was decided that the Macedonians and
the Illyrians should be free; so that it should be evident
to all peoples that the arms of the Roman people did
not bring slavery to the free but, on the contrary,
freedom to the enslaved; so that nations which enjoyed
freedom should feel that their liberty was assured in
perpetuity under the protection of the Roman People,
and that those people who lived under the rule of kings
should be convinced that for the present their rulers
were more gentle and more just by reason of their
respect for the Roman People, and that if ever their
rulers should be at war with the Roman People, the
result of that war would bring victory to the Romans
and liberty to themselves.
It was also decided to do away with the leasing of the
Macedonian mines,.............................................. .
Finally, fearing that a common legislative body for
the whole nation might give a chance for some
unscrupulous demagogue to pervert the freedom
given by healthy moderation into the licence
which is a plague to any commonwealth, the Senate
decided to divide Macedonia into four districts, each
having its own governing body. It was also decreed
that Macedonia should pay to the Roman people
half the tribute which they had customarily paid to
their kings. ........................................................ .
29. Paulus had given orders that on a certain day
ten leading citizens from each city should present
themselves at Amphipolis, that all official documents
deposited in different places should be collected by
that time, and the king's money should be brought
in. When the day arrived, Paulus, accompanied by
the ten commissioners, took his seat on his official
platform, surrounded by the whole crowd of
Macedonians. The Macedonians were accustomed
to the power of kings; but this new sovereign power
was displayed to them in a fashion to inspire
dread; the consul's seat of judgement, his entrance
after a path had been cleared, the herald, and
the attendant - all these were novelties to their eyes
and ears, and they were things that might have
frightened even allies, not to speak of conquered
enemies. When the herald had imposed silence,
Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the
Senate, along with his own decisions, made on the
advice of his council.
The praetor Gnaeus Octavius - for he too was
there - translated these announcements into
Greek and conveyed them to the Macedonians.
The provisions were as follows: first of all, the
Macedonians were to be free, keeping their own
cities and territories, enjoying their own laws, and
electing annual magistrates; they were to pay to
Roman people half the tax they had paid to their kings.
In the next place Macedonia was to be divided into
four districts; one district, the first division would
consist of the land between the rivers Strymon and
Nessus; and to this division would be added, from
across the Nessus to the east, the villages, fortified
places, and towns which Perseus had held, except
Aenus, Maronea, and Abdera, while on the nearer
side of the Strymon, towards the west, there would
be added all the country of the Bisaltae, including
Heraclea (Heraclea Sintice as it is called). The
second district was to consist of the part bounded
on the east by the River Strymon, excluding Heraclea
Sintice and the Bisaltae - and on the west by the
Axius, and was to include the Paeonians dwelling
near the Axius on the east bank of the river. The
third district comprised the territory enclosed on
the east by the Axius and on the west by the River
Peneus - on the north Mount Bora forms a barrier;
to this division was added the region of Paeonia
which extends along the west bank of the Axius;
Edessa and Beroea were also assigned to this
district. The fourth district was on the other side of
Mount Bora, one part of it bordering on Illyricum,
the other on Epirus. The capitals of the districts,
where their councils were to be held, were these:
for the first district, Amphipolis; for the second,
Thessalonica; for the third, Pella; for the fourth,
Pelagonia. The consul gave orders that a council
for each district should be called in each of these
places, and that in these places money should
be brought in, and magistrates elected.
Next he announced a decision that no one should
have the right of marriage or of dealing in land or
buildings outside the confines of his own district.
Moreover, the mines of gold and silver were not
to be worked, although the working of iron and
copper mines was allowed, the taxon those working
the mines was fixed at half the amount they had
paid to the king. He forbade the use of imported
salt. When the Dardanians asked for the
restoration of Paeonia, on the ground that it had
been theirs and that it adjoined their boundaries,
Paulus announced that freedom was being given
to all those who had been under the rule of King
Perseus. But after refusing them Paeonia he gave
them the right to import salt; he ordered the third
district to convey salt to Stobi in Paeonia, and he
fixed the price of this commodity. He forbade the
Macedonians to cut timber for ships, or to allow
others to do so. The districts with barbarians on
their borders - all the districts, that is, except the
third - were given leave to have armed guards along
their frontiers.
30. The announcement of these provisions on the
first day of the meeting aroused varied feelings.
The unexpected granting of freedom, and the
lightening of the annual tax, raised men's spirits;
but to those whose commercial activities were
interrupted by the division into districts their
country seemed cut into pieces, like an animal
torn into separate parts, each of which needed
the others; so unaware were the Macedonians
themselves of the size of Macedonia, of the ease
with which it could be divided, of the self-sufficiency
of each part. The first district enjoys many
advantages; it has the Bisaltae, first-class
fighting men (they live beyond the Nessus, in
the neighbourhood of the Strymon); it has
crops of many kinds peculiar to the region,
it has mines; and the strategic position of Amphipolis
forms a barrier closing all approaches into
Macedonia from the east. The second division has
the extremely populous cities of Thessalonica and
Cassandrea, and it has besides, in Pallene, a
fertile and fruitful territory; it is also provided with
maritime advantages in the shape of the harbours at
Torone, Mount Athos, Aenea, and Acanthus, all in
convenient positions, some facing Thessaly and the
island of Euboea, others looking towards the
Hellespont. The third region has the notable cities of
Edessa, Beroea, and Pella; it includes the warlike
people of the Vettii, besides a large settlement of
Gauls and Illyrians, who are energetic farmers. The
fourth region is inhabited by the Eordaei, the
Lyncestae, and the Pelagonians; added to these
are Atintania, Tymphaeis, and Elimiotis. All this stretch
of country is cold, difficult of cultivation and harsh;
and it has inhabitants of a character resembling the
land; and they are made fiercer by the wild tribesmen
dwelling next to them, who sometimes give them
practice in warfare, sometimes, in times of peace, an
intermixture of their customs. The division of Macedonia
thus demonstrated, by separating the advantages of the
different parts, the greatness of the country as a whole.
31. After the dictation of the scheme for Macedonia,
Paulus gave notice that he would also lay down laws.
He then summoned the Aetolians to appear before him.
In this examination .................................................. .
Livy (Titus Livius), XLV.17 - XLV.31
from LIVY. ROME AND THE MEDITERRANEAN
Translated by HENRY BETTENSON
PENGUIN CLASSICS
For fair use only
Vasko Makedonski
> the sole fact that you so frequently impose the following (in fact in
your
> every posting):
> -- quote --
>
>
> DEATH TO THE FOUR *EMPIRES OCCUPYING MACEDONIAN SOIL
>
> *BULGARIA, GREECE, SERBIA, ALBANIA
>
> ... perfectly well clears the fact that you are racist. We non-
racists do
> not want the death of whole nations , including our neighbours'.
> Have a nice night,
> moni
Rubbish. I do not include the coutries in my motto because I hate them
racially but because they occupy Macedonian soil. Got it?
June R Harton
Vasko Voulgarski wrote
> Rubbish. I do not include the coutries in my motto because I hate them
> racially but because they occupy Macedonian soil. Got it?
Rubbish. you have shown clearly that you are another FYROMian
racist.
And _Macedonian_ soil is Northern Greek soil, and every reference
and historian bares that out.
The only occupied ancient Macedonian Greek territory is
Lynkestes Heraklea.
Does fYROM wish to return it to make up for all this crap
you have been giving to Greece?
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
...........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
Jacovito wrote
> I wonder why do their call their language Macedonian and not Modern
> Macedonian or SlavoMacedonian or West Bulgarian dialect...... since
> it is not even slightly related to the ancient Macedonian language....
Good point.
Jacovito
Ο Vasko Makedonski έγραψε στο μήνυμα <82vt2i$58h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>> pseudo-' Makedon' wrote in his Bulgarian mother tongue again.
>
I wonder why do their call their language Macedonian and not Modern
Macedonian
or SlavoMacedonian or West Bulgarian dialect...... since it is not even
slightly
related to the ancient Macedonian language....
Jacovito